I found the pirates inpossible. Thankfully i haven't seen them do anything like that since

I loved The Pirates!

Happy holidays Who-folk!

I found the pirates inpossible. Thankfully i haven't seen them do anything like that since

I quite enjoyed that one, funnily enough! You're right though - I couldn't stand too many of those.


I hope everyone has a good one :)

That was wonderful, I hope everyone enjoyed it as much as I did!

Four and a half hours before it airs here in Canada...



Merry Christmas one and all...(or Happy Holidays...)

That was wonderful, I hope everyone enjoyed it as much as I did!

I liked that so much more than last years effort. lovely.

Well that settles it. Even the Blue Box doesn't like the new girl, kicked her little blond butt right out the door. Best scene of the entire episode. That and seeing the classic console room again.

Well, it didn't like chinny either.

I quite liked P!rates, at least, most of it.

Have to say, I'd be happy to have a more comical show every once in a while

I quite liked P!rates, at least, most of it.

Have to say, I'd be happy to have a more comical show every once in a while

Yes, once in a while. I like it when we have those stories that mix things up every once in a while - Cr3atur3s of B3auty and Fl!p-Fl0p come to mind too.

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------


I liked that so much more than last years effort. lovely.

Yes, same here. There were a lot of nice touches. I did feel a bit underwhelmed though - I would have loved a better threat. The type of threat here would have better served a normal series episode. But that's just my opinion. Gonna be a wait until (northern hemisphere) autumn (fall, for the yanks).

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------


Well, it didn't like chinny either.

Yes, it's so close to that. A bit too close for my liking (that wasn't all that long ago and there's homage and rip off)

---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------


... and seeing the classic console room again.

I loved that. It makes you wonder what they've got in store next for the interior (if they do decide to change). I'd love a more retro look (and retro, as in Medic history retro).

Agreed, the whole crashing thing was far too similar to the LAST major changeover. Brought back all the anxiety of just how original Chibnall might *not* be.

Well that settles it. Even the Blue Box doesn't like the new girl, kicked her little blond butt right out the door. Best scene of the entire episode. That and seeing the classic console room again.

You need a smacked bottom, you silly little child.

I really hope that, from now on, we'll see less of the fairytale nonsense that Moffat was so keen on & get back to some good solid science fiction.
Also, the constant attempts to be epic, poignant, heartbreaking & inspirational is getting so tedious. When Capaldi was doing his final speech I was honestly thinking, 'Nobody cares - just get on with it!' I'm sure many of you did care but, for me, having passionate speeches about what it means to be The Doctor & what he means to all the lives he touches in every single episode just means it lost its impact a long time ago.

I really hope that, from now on, we'll see less of the fairytale nonsense that Moffat was so keen on & get back to some good solid science fiction.
Also, the constant attempts to be epic, poignant, heartbreaking & inspirational is getting so tedious. When Capaldi was doing his final speech I was honestly thinking, 'Nobody cares - just get on with it!' I'm sure many of you did care but, for me, having passionate speeches about what it means to be The Doctor & what he means to all the lives he touches in every single episode just means it lost its impact a long time ago.

Yes, that's how I feel too. Just get on with some good Sci-Fi stories. Give the audience some credit - we have no need to be told how great the Medic is. I have to say, it's probably no use going on Chibnall's past stories as an indication of what to expect as that was under another show-runner. It's like Moffatt - basing on his stories that he did for RTD you'd have thought he would be great as show-runner (I did enjoy the first two under the Moff and the last series was a big improvement though). I just wish they'd just get on with great stories (no navel gazing).

Hello all.... merry Christmas and Happy new year to you all....

All I want to say, and please don't read if you have not seen the special yet....

So the ship has expelled the Medic, as we have seen, how is she gonna survive? crash to the ground and say " ohhh it was fun while it lasted....." then regenerate into Bradley Walsh!
You can imagine all the BBC big wigs saying "AH HA! They never saw that one coming! biggest rug pull ever!" - Hey I can dream lol!

So the ship has expelled the Medic, as we have seen, how is she gonna survive? crash to the ground and say " ohhh it was fun while it lasted....." then regenerate into Bradley Walsh!
You can imagine all the BBC big wigs saying "AH HA! They never saw that one coming! biggest rug pull ever!" - Hey I can dream lol!
Given that there have been some on-set pics taken of 13 walking around a forest in 12's tattered costume, I have a feeling that's not the case. Plus, I think it was would piss off too many people if they did that kinda rug pull...

Given that there have been some on-set pics taken of 13 walking around a forest in 12's tattered costume, I have a feeling that's not the case. Plus, I think it was would piss off too many people if they did that kinda rug pull...

As I said, I can dream.....lol
I was in no way implying that I had some inside information on this being the case, BUT I would LOVE to see the reaction to the fan base IF that was the case!
Besides the kind of thinking behind that kind of bluff does not seem to exist at the BBC these days lol!

Besides the kind of thinking behind that kind of bluff does not seem to exist at the BBC these days lol!
Well, the Beeb signed off on Moff retconning the Conflict Medic in between 8 and 9, so anything's possible as far as I'm concerned. And I still feel like it wouldn't have worked as brilliantly had John Hurt not been so damn good or even cast in the role. (RIP... :()

I'm personally a bit giddy and cautiously optimistic to see how 13 plays out. Especially since in one of my YouTube vids, I rather brazenly stated that they were far more likely to cast a woman as the Medic than an American actor when one of my friends (who's also on said video) felt that they should do the latter to really shake up the status quo of the show. So I kinda feel slightly smug about calling it so quickly, as well as shocked that it happened as quickly as it did so soon after me making said statement.

I am on the fence myself... Not pleased at the prospect, however waiting to see how it plays out.
Open minded but feeling the menace in my own shadow lol

I am on the fence myself... Not pleased at the prospect, however waiting to see how it plays out.
Open minded but feeling the menace in my own shadow lol
That's good. At least you're keeping an open mind. My girlfriend's a bit negative about it, saying she feels it's gonna ruin the show and that it's just catering to those "PC folks who want representation", and that "She looks like the archetypal female who has to prove herself after a man", etc. She doesn't understand how I can be so optimistic about it. Then again, I have a greater contextual understanding of the Whoniverse than she does, so that could be possibly why. However, she has also said she's starting to regret getting into the show if they were gonna pull something like that. Even though I think in order to keep the show fresh and engaging in this day and age, you kinda need to do stuff like this to keep it striving towards the future.

Hell, one of my closest female friends was like "About time!" when I told her that 13 was gonna be a woman because she missed the announcement due to taking a break from the internet for awhile.

I am on the fence myself... Not pleased at the prospect, however waiting to see how it plays out.
Open minded but feeling the menace in my own shadow lol

I was reluctant before they announced it but I'm ok with it now & quite looking forward to it! And I still enjoy Thor & Iron Man, so...

I was never reluctant, I welcomed her with open arms as soon as she took off that cloak.

People should stop mixing up fiction with reality. Who cares about feminists and PCs or whatever? A Female Doctor is just a possible product of regeneration that finally occurred and can open a big fat load os possibilities to the show. That's how I see it.

Whodie Jittaker is going to be a superb Medic. I honestly don't understand why people are losing their shit over this.

Whodie Jittaker is going to be a superb Medic. I honestly don't understand why people are losing their shit over this.

I don't see anyone "losing their shit" over it, as you say, here on this site.
I see those that are happy with the choice and I see those with reservations, like myself.
People love the show and some people are worried about the impact of this change.

I think it HAS split fans, however I hope that people will have the sense to at least wait and see when it airs!

Anyone who denounces casting a woman as Dr Who as "PC nonsense" probably isn't worth listening to (actually just using that phrase is a pretty just reason to roll your eyes considering "PC" is the politicised word for basic respect these days). It's been bounced around as a possibility since the 80s and was basically an inevitability as long as the show ran.

i thought i wouldn't like the new doctor, and after her uttering two words, that was indeed the case and i turned it off.
even worse was that Kapaldee's final speech was unbearably corny and long. it would have been wonderful if he had regenerated mid-speech to shut him up.
alas, for me, it is still "Timey Whiney" whose tenure is the absolute worst...that is, of the males who played the role...
but, what do i know? the bbc is not listening to me...yet.
as a long time fan since "genesis of the daleks" was broadcast on telly, i am really sorry to say that i am done with the show on air.

I'm skeptical that a female Medic can actually work, but I'm willing to give her one episode to change my mind. If I'm not convinced of JW as the Medic by the end of her first story then I probably never will be.

I don't care if the part is played by a disabled, intersex badger as long as it can act and the stories are interesting.




I'm skeptical that a female Medic can actually work, but I'm willing to give her one episode to change my mind. If I'm not convinced of JW as the Medic by the end of her first story then I probably never will be.

I like her so far!

I like her so far!

Yes. And when I saw above mentioned photos of her in PC's tattered coat with Mr Walsh I thought she looked very Medic-ish. Don't know about that other get-up that's supposed to be her costume though. Although I'd prefer the Medic stayed male I'm warming to the idea of a female Medic.

Also, people's opinions are people's opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't like broad beans, or peas. Others do. It's called personal taste.

I've long been a bit disillusioned with the show myself. It hasn't really felt like the Medic show I grew up watching. Especially series 8 & 9. I really felt PC was short-changed (though other people may, and do have different opinions). The last series I felt actually interested to watch again (apart from the three Monk episodes - boring. Again, my opinion). We'll have to see how Chipnill goes as show-runner. As I've said before, I hope it just goes back to Sci-fi storytelling. No mythologising or fairytale nonsense. A shame it's a long wait to find out what's in store.

One thing I have noticed with this whole Mrs Medic thing, It seems to me (mostly not exclusively) that the old school fans - classic medic (of which I am one) seem to be the main camp of discontent, whereas the NuWho fans, ones that came to show since 2005 (again mostly and not exclusively), are the ones that seem to punch the air with glee at the idea!
I keep seeing comments like "oh well its established in the show time lords can change sex" or words to that affect as the justification of this point....
However (or is that whoever?) this was ONLY the case since the Grand Moffs reign!

Hartnell " Time can NOT be rewritten - NOT ONE WORD OF IT!" - this was a MAJOR plot point in the classic series....

Some Matty Smith season or other "TIME CAN BE REWRITTEN" - was the major publicity point.

What I as saying is that this was the choice on one show runner, and none before.... during his reign the universe has ended, restarted, rebooted been recreated how many times?

ANYTHING established could be/ may be changed at some point down the line in the history of the series.

And before anybody plays the Master/Missy card, we have never seen the Master regenerate into a woman ever.... we HAVE seen the Master take over others bodies... Tremas, Bruce in the McGann film, so that was the perfect, in universe, get out of gender free card right there!

I say again, I am not that happy at the choice to change the medics gender, however I am willing to see how it goes.

What I cant stand at the moment is the fact that anyone who is brave enough to mention they don't like the idea seems to get shot down, abused and called all the names under the sun for daring to even mention that they don't like the idea - sexism its self is wrong, but so is shouting someone down for having a differing point of view to the one you hold.
Healthy debate is good, abuse and name calling is not! - hell even medic 5 was hounded off of twitter for making comments that did not follow the company line, and that's simply wrong on so many levels!

Will Jodie be any good? nobody can say yet.... we have not really seen her in action, however the same can be said of any actor that has taken the role, some love them, some like them, some hate them.... its how its always been and its how it will be with Jodie!

Hands up the people moaning in the early days that PC was too old... too grumpy... I remember all of that, now people love him (well some do lol)

In summary, lets all just wait and see what happens, but until then, lets just chat and debate the potential, good and bad, of what's to come, knowing that we can do so here, in safety, among friends, where we can express our views and know that some will agree and so wont!

I hate the way that work keeps getting in the way of this thing called life. I still haven't got round to watching it yet. Grrr! hopefully have a chance this weekend.

Changing established things is different to adding something new to the table, so that comparison with Moffat's rendition of time itself doesn't really make much sense. Moffat bringing the possibility of gender-shifting in regeneration is just overdue acknowledgement of a discussion going on since Tom Baker's reign.
It's less of "it's been established it can happen" and more of "it's never been established it can't". I couldn't care less about feminism and the likes of it, I just want to see Doctor Who doing things it hasn't ever done before. Like the original Dalek serial bringing fantasy into a show that has been historical sci-fi for all of it's four episodes, or the original 1966 regeneration daring to "make Doctor Who without Doctor Who".


but, what do i know? the bbc is not listening to me...yet.Hopefully it never will.

i thought i wouldn't like the new doctor, and after her uttering two words, that was indeed the case and i turned it off.

So glad you've given her a chance
*rolls eyes*

The best part is that he even counted "oh" as a word

Yet, that is their opinion, which they're allowed to have. Just because they don't agree with you does not make one right or one wrong. It's just personal taste. I'm sure people will still watch, and they may even change their minds, or not - that's their prerogative.

I quite agree with what Jawamaster said too.

Hey all, sorry to interrupt the debate concerning 13 but I could use a bit of help. My 8 medic stories with the girl from Blackpool somehow got corrupted. I've managed to reacquire most from another source but could use assistance in filling in the gaps. Looking for versions including the trailer and interview segments. Tried the other place and other sites I know of, but two have dried up completely, one has gone the way of the wind, and the last just doesn't have what I'm looking for. Don't really care if they are 256 or 320 as long as they have the extras included. Looking for......
3.02, 3.04, 3.05, 3.07, 3.08, 4.06, and 4.10Any help will be appreciated. You may now return to your previously scheduled debate.

Hey all, sorry to interrupt the debate concerning 13 but I could use a bit of help. My 8 medic stories with the girl from Blackpool somehow got corrupted. I've managed to reacquire most from another source but could use assistance in filling in the gaps. Looking for versions including the trailer and interview segments. Tried the other place and other sites I know of, but two have dried up completely, one has gone the way of the wind, and the last just doesn't have what I'm looking for. Don't really care if they are 256 or 320 as long as they have the extras included. Looking for......
3.02, 3.04, 3.05, 3.07, 3.08, 4.06, and 4.10Any help will be appreciated. You may now return to your previously scheduled debate.

Check your PM.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------


Hey all, sorry to interrupt the debate concerning 13 but I could use a bit of help. My 8 medic stories with the girl from Blackpool somehow got corrupted. I've managed to reacquire most from another source but could use assistance in filling in the gaps. Looking for versions including the trailer and interview segments. Tried the other place and other sites I know of, but two have dried up completely, one has gone the way of the wind, and the last just doesn't have what I'm looking for. Don't really care if they are 256 or 320 as long as they have the extras included. Looking for......
3.02, 3.04, 3.05, 3.07, 3.08, 4.06, and 4.10Any help will be appreciated. You may now return to your previously scheduled debate.

Check your PM.

I've been a fan for over 3 decades of my life. Love the classics (2nd & Jamie, FTW!!), and I think she's likely to be "BRILLIANT!"

Hartnell " Time can NOT be rewritten - NOT ONE WORD OF IT!" - this was a MAJOR plot point in the classic series....

It was a major plot point in The Aztecs, and routinely ignored after that episode.

It's not really a contradiction. Most times, 'Time can be rewritten' is a case of putting right what once went wrong (to borrow from Quantum Leap), or making a change so small as to not overly disrupt the flow of time. What Barbara was proposing there was putting wrong what would instead go right (The Aztecs go on slaughtering - and then in turn get slaughtered by Pizarro and the Conquistadors once they see the butchery up front). The Medic, being where he's from, can instinctively tell the difference (such as the infamous Moon-Egg episode); the Companions can't.

Has anyone got the ebook version of the recent book on the pepper pots?

Also I've found the 80s production bible I must have gotten off one of the DVDs plus the infamous short story from the 20th Anniversary Audio Temporal magazine special if anyone is interested.

I don't care if the part is played by a disabled, intersex badger as long as it can act and the stories are interesting.

i agree completely.

the alternative is that the show ends...again...this time probably forever.

Just be damn glad the show is still running!!!

I'm skeptical that a female Medic can actually work, but I'm willing to give her one episode to change my mind. If I'm not convinced of JW as the Medic by the end of her first story then I probably never will be.

But why wouldn't it work? There's virtually nothing in the previous 50+ years that requires the Doctor to be male. You could replace Tom Baker with a woman and the scripts wouldn't have to be changed at all.

Hey there,

I know this is not completely Doctor Who related, but falls in the same franchise, but, does anyone have any of the Sarah Jane Audios?

Thanks in advance. Sorry if this is in the wrong place, was not sure where else to post about it, and thought this was my best bet.

Thanks again, it is much appreciated :)

But why wouldn't it work? There's virtually nothing in the previous 50+ years that requires the Doctor to be male. You could replace Tom Baker with a woman and the scripts wouldn't have to be changed at all.

But just because you can, does it mean you should?
Could you realistically not do that with many characters from fiction?
We had equality to a degree with Clara, she virtually took over the show, granted she was not the Doc him/her self, but a lot of people moaned and complained about it, throwing the title "Clara Who" about.
Now if Clara had been the Doc, and Capaldi her older male sidekick - which IMHO opinion he was in many of those episodes - would people have still complained?
I know nobody can actually give a definitive answer to that, which all will accept, because it all boils down to personal beliefs and points of view.

By the same argument, would people want a remake or reboot of Buffy with a male Slayer? because again, you could switch the genders, make Angel a woman, or be really daring and keep Angel a male because, well because you just can! - nothing would actually detract from the story or the scripts, other than some may complain that it was yet another male hero!

Personally I think they dropped the ball with River Song there.... they never should have used all her regenerations up and spun her off into her own show, with any actress they chose.

I am not a fan of them repurposing an established character, just because they can. It would have been better to create a new character in their own right.

As I stated in a prior post, I am open minded to how it will turn out and am not boycotting the show like some people claim to be doing, and Jodie may win me over....

We cant tell yet, we have not seen it, but I stand by my point of just because we can change the Docs gender, does not automatically mean we should!

---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------


It was a major plot point in The Aztecs, and routinely ignored after that episode.

But what about The Romans, The Myth Makers, The Highlanders, The Visitation, it even played into Pyramids of Mars, when we saw Sarah's future if Sutekh was not stopped.... and that just off of my head! lol

Could you realistically not do that with many characters from fiction?How many do you know that has been given a biological feature of complete body-changing?

We had equality to a degree with Clara, she virtually took over the show, granted she was not the Doc him/her self, but a lot of people moaned and complained about it, throwing the title "Clara Who" about.
Now if Clara had been the Doc, and Capaldi her older male sidekick - which IMHO opinion he was in many of those episodes - would people have still complained?
I know nobody can actually give a definitive answer to that, which all will accept, because it all boils down to personal beliefs and points of view. Aren't you making it more complex than it really is? The issue has always been that Clara is a human and that a human acting like an equal or superior to a time lord is ridiculous. Not to mention she's not the titular protagonist, whereas the 13th Doctor will be. Also... women can be different to each other, which is kinda a given.

By the same argument, would people want a remake or reboot of Buffy with a male Slayer? because again, you could switch the genders, make Angel a woman, or be really daring and keep Angel a male because, well because you just can! - nothing would actually detract from the story or the scripts, other than some may complain that it was yet another male hero! That would have made a point if not by the "by the same argument" line, since it's not the same argument, as Doctor Who is not being rebooted and the change was made by a process that's been built upon since 1966.

I am not a fan of them repurposing an established character, just because they can. It would have been better to create a new character in their own right. They're not only not repurposing the Doctor but they also can still create as many new characters as they want, nothing's stopping them..

As I stated in a prior post, I am open minded to how it will turn out and am not boycotting the show like some people claim to be doing, and Jodie may win me over....
We cant tell yet, we have not seen it, but I stand by my point of just because we can change the Docs gender, does not automatically mean we should!That's an excellent way to deal with it, being willing to give it a try when it comes. But... just because they could recast Hartnell back in season 4 didn't mean they should. Just because they could revive Doctor Who in 2005 didn't mean they should. Doctor Who is not a franchise where you just do what you should do. It has endless possibilities. It's ok to not like one or another possibility, after all, I didn't like the whole soap-opera-ish stuff from the 11th Doctor's era, but it was still something DW tried and that's always good.

Always go for the new, that's what I say.

You make your points well, which was the purpose of the post, to debate the pro's and cons of the change, however I do have one little pedantic thing to say...
I disagree on the reboot comment, because every time the lead actor changes, the show does indeed undergo a soft reboot... and many producers and show runners have said so themselves.
Granted not a complete reboot as a male buffy would be, but still a reboot.
Other than that, I thank you for taking the time to express your views and I hope many more will follow suit, we have many months of waiting to see what the new series will bring, so we have to fill that time somehow lol!

The arguing on youtube comments is full of crap from all sides, those liking it are accused of being "PC feminists wanting to be pandered", those wary of it of being "mysogynists" and so on. It's all just a waste of time. It's much lighter on the head and the heart to just explain why the decision pleases or displeases oneself.

Every Doctor took a few episodes to earn some people's respects. Some even took full seasons to be acknowledged, Capaldi got most of his fanbase only at Series 9. Of course Jodie will go through the same hell that comes with the job.

The arguing on youtube comments is full of crap from all sides, those liking it are accused of being "PC feminists wanting to be pandered", those wary of it of being "mysogynists" and so on. It's all just a waste of time. It's much lighter on the head and the heart to just explain why the decision pleases or displeases oneself.

Every Doctor took a few episodes to earn some people's respects. Some even took full seasons to be acknowledged, Capaldi got most of his fanbase only at Series 9. Of course Jodie will go through the same hell that comes with the job.It's the same way on some of the Medic pages on Facebook. Those people get downright nasty. Anyone who disagree with or dislike JW's casting gets torn apart from all sides, getting called everything from 'a closeminded mysogenistic dinosaur' to 'a moronic unimaginative piece of sh*t' which is why I've avoided voicing my opinion on any of those pages. I have my misgivings but I'm taking a wait and see attitude. Whittaker will either be brilliant in the role or she won't. My fear is that if she does fall flat on her face it will hurt the series even worse than the Moff's mediocre tenure has.

Has anyone got the ebook version of the recent book on the pepper pots?

Also I've found the 80s production bible I must have gotten off one of the DVDs plus the infamous short story from the 20th Anniversary Audio Temporal magazine special if anyone is interested.

I'd be very interested in the 20th Anniversary Audio Temporal short story... :)

Well it took quite some time but the Original has returned at last.
<!-----For anyone who hasn't yet gleaned it from other sources----https://www.sendspace.com/file/6eck4k--->
He did say someday he would come back.

Thanks webs!

Yes, a lot of time to pass until new episodes. I do enjoy a bit of chat, as long as we all respect each other's opinions.

I still can't believe we're at the start of another new year! Still waiting for proper hoverboards though :(

Yes, a lot of time to pass until new episodes. I do enjoy a bit of chat, as long as we all respect each other's opinions.

I still can't believe we're at the start of another new year! Still waiting for proper hoverboards though :(

That's what its all about EM, the word "respect" is used so often these days as in respect this, respect that, the one thing MOST forget, is to respect the fact that others may have a different view lol!
We have had too much needless drama here over the years, but I believe that we can make this place what it once was, and that is a place where we can all talk and discuss these things openly and honestly. We don't all have to agree, but we can hopefully listen to others and they listen to us, without reducing to the name calling crap that seems to happen on other places around the interweb!

Love a female medic.... great others don't.... hate a female medic.....great others don't. however in the end, it will come down to what we see on screen and how good the writing, production and acting is!

I am as of yet unconvinced it will work, however I am open to them proving me wrong, and I hope the production crew do, only time will tell!
Until such time, lets hope we can all keep our heads and talk about it without acting like a bunch of school kids! lol

PS hoverboards..... you do know if they were real, we would end up braking limbs trying to use one, don't you?lol

thanks webs

Hey there,

I know this is not completely Doctor Who related, but falls in the same franchise, but, does anyone have any of the Sarah Jane Audios?

Thanks again, it is much appreciated :)

SJS S1

<www.sendspace.com/file/lapjjr>
<www.sendspace.com/file/k2tocz>
<www.sendspace.com/file/h6tmwq>

S2

<www.sendspace.com/file/6s8uxw>
<www.sendspace.com/file/r9jc39>

Covers

<www.sendspace.com/file/hymwwr>
.

But just because you can, does it mean you should?
Could you realistically not do that with many characters from fiction?
We had equality to a degree with Clara, she virtually took over the show, granted she was not the Doc him/her self, but a lot of people moaned and complained about it, throwing the title "Clara Who" about.
Now if Clara had been the Doc, and Capaldi her older male sidekick - which IMHO opinion he was in many of those episodes - would people have still complained?
I know nobody can actually give a definitive answer to that, which all will accept, because it all boils down to personal beliefs and points of view.

By the same argument, would people want a remake or reboot of Buffy with a male Slayer? because again, you could switch the genders, make Angel a woman, or be really daring and keep Angel a male because, well because you just can! - nothing would actually detract from the story or the scripts, other than some may complain that it was yet another male hero!

Personally I think they dropped the ball with River Song there.... they never should have used all her regenerations up and spun her off into her own show, with any actress they chose.

I am not a fan of them repurposing an established character, just because they can. It would have been better to create a new character in their own right.

As I stated in a prior post, I am open minded to how it will turn out and am not boycotting the show like some people claim to be doing, and Jodie may win me over....

We cant tell yet, we have not seen it, but I stand by my point of just because we can change the Docs gender, does not automatically mean we should!

---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------



But what about The Romans, The Myth Makers, The Highlanders, The Visitation, it even played into Pyramids of Mars, when we saw Sarah's future if Sutekh was not stopped.... and that just off of my head! lol

It's worth remembering though that sci-fi and fantasy shows with a female lead are very rare. So when people say "why don't we make Buffy a man?" it's kind of missing the point. Doctor Who has a rare opportunity to have the best of both worlds and after 50+ years it's not like the male side has been ignored!


It's the same way on some of the Medic pages on Facebook. Those people get downright nasty. Anyone who disagree with or dislike JW's casting gets torn apart from all sides, getting called everything from 'a closeminded mysogenistic dinosaur' to 'a moronic unimaginative piece of sh*t' which is why I've avoided voicing my opinion on any of those pages. I have my misgivings but I'm taking a wait and see attitude. Whittaker will either be brilliant in the role or she won't. My fear is that if she does fall flat on her face it will hurt the series even worse than the Moff's mediocre tenure has.

Moff's episodes are frequently the biggest show on Saturday night. This idea the show is in trouble is people panicking over nothing

As seven says to Ace..


"Time will tell.... It always does"

:)

PS hoverboards..... you do know if they were real, we would end up breaking limbs trying to use one, don't you?lol

I have trouble standing on a skateboard when it's still, even a surfboard in a swimming pool.

I always considered it a shame LC never got the opportunity to go back and resolve the cliffhanger from SJS season two.


I have trouble standing on a skateboard when it's still, even a surfboard in a swimming pool.I tried riding a skateboard once. It did not end well. There was blood, carnage, and tears. It was not a pretty site.

Actually, I think it would be safer if I had a ride-on hoverboard, something like the third medic's Whatmobile is his last serial (featuring the most pointless chase in Medic What's history).

Hey webs. I saw a cat on a skateboard on TV - yes, cats can do it. It's just a shame some of us humans can't :(

Actually, I think it would be safer if I had a ride-on hoverboard, something like the third medic's Whatmobile is his last serial (featuring the most pointless chase in Medic What's history).

Hey webs. I saw a cat on a skateboard on TV - yes, cats can do it. It's just a shame some of us humans can't :(

Cats have 4 legs.... they have an advantage lol

Cats have 4 legs.... they have an advantage lolCats also have a tendency to land on their feet....humans just go splat.

I always considered it a shame LC never got the opportunity to go back and resolve the cliffhanger from SJS season two.

Yes. The cliffhanger at the end of Real Time as well - although that was more because the writer didn't want to

Has anyone got the ebook version of the recent book on the pepper pots?

Also I've found the 80s production bible I must have gotten off one of the DVDs plus the infamous short story from the 20th Anniversary Audio Temporal magazine special if anyone is interested.

Definitely still interested in that 20th Anniversary story.

I�m unsure of which ebook you�re referring to. If you clarify I can check and see. I very well may have it.

Definitely still interested in that 20th Anniversary story.

I’m unsure of which ebook you’re referring to. If you clarify I can check and see. I very well may have it.

I assume that this is the Pepperpots book: https://shop.bbc.com/doctor-who-dalek-the-astounding-untold-history-of-the-greatest-enemies-of-the-universe.html

I assume that this is the Pepperpots book: https://shop.bbc.com/doctor-who-dalek-the-astounding-untold-history-of-the-greatest-enemies-of-the-universe.html

Ah, ok, guess the code/lingo of the site is throwing me off... no, don’t have that one, as I’m focusing on the pure fiction aspect of the DW verse (the series and it’s spin offs, as well as the spin off audio dramas, novels, comics, and short stories).

I’m a complete noob when it comes to DW. Began watching the Hartnell episodes from very beginning (and the reconstructions/Animated recons for missing episodes) about six months ago and am now almost done with Third Doc episodes and onto Baker’s tenure. Figure it’ll be a year or two before I’m finished with the classic series run (as I’m trying to go through all the spin off material—audio dramas, novels, comics) in a sort of chronological order approach (from the Doc’s point of view).

If anyone is looking for harder to find audio dramas (like the subscriber exclusive stories) or novels, I have most of those. My obsessive compulsive disorder makes tracking down things a bit of an art, but admittedly am still trying to find a few of the audio releases like Vienna and a few of the more recent comics, but otherwise my collection is almost complete. :)

Also, any pointers on the code/lingo for the thread would be helpful. I don’t want to misspeak and say wrong thing, so let me know what I shouldn’t say. :)

Also, any pointers on the code/lingo for the thread would be helpful. I don’t want to misspeak and say wrong thing, so let me know what I shouldn’t say. :)The lingo is pretty easy to catch onto once you really get into it. Just think of things that sound like what you are asking for. For example if you wanted something called say Dark Water you'd ask for Murky Puddle. That's an easy one of course but its along the general lines of how things work here. The only reason we do things this way is because in the past we've had difficulties with Big Brother sweeping in and ruining our fun.
The main thing to remember is to ask for things nicely, don't get offended if your requests aren't answered right away, and be respectful of others opinions. Nobody here likes someone who gets overly pushy because nobody has responded to their requests, or majorly aggressive when others don't agree with their opinions. There have been issues with that in the past as well. Generally most of us are happy to help if we can as long as we're treated fairly in return.

So Briggsy was answering fan questions on his Facebook page the other night so I asked him a three tiered LC related question. He ignored the first part completely, said the second question was something he personally would love to do but couldn't see anyone else at LC getting behind, but it was his response to my third question that was the most interesting. You see he stated in his post that anything he couldn't talk about for confidentiality's sake he'd simply say "Just Imagine" I asked him since Miss Sheridan had recently returned to read a couple of short stories if there were any plans to do a few full cast stories with her and Eight. He responded with...yep you guessed it, Just Imagine.

The lingo is pretty easy to catch onto once you really get into it. Just think of things that sound like what you are asking for. For example if you wanted something called say Dark Water you'd ask for Murky Puddle. That's an easy one of course but its along the general lines of how things work here. The only reason we do things this way is because in the past we've had difficulties with Big Brother sweeping in and ruining our fun.
The main thing to remember is to ask for things nicely, don't get offended if your requests aren't answered right away, and be respectful of others opinions. Nobody here likes someone who gets overly pushy because nobody has responded to their requests, or majorly aggressive when others don't agree with their opinions. There have been issues with that in the past as well. Generally most of us are happy to help if we can as long as we're treated fairly in return.

Got it. Appreciate the heads up and clarification. I do similar and am a regular contributor/scanner for a Sun Conflicts (I’m still getting the hang of this lingo, bear with me) thread on another forum.

So Briggsy was answering fan questions on his Facebook page the other night so I asked him a three tiered LC related question. He ignored the first part completely, said the second question was something he personally would love to do but couldn't see anyone else at LC getting behind, but it was his response to my third question that was the most interesting. You see he stated in his post that anything he couldn't talk about for confidentiality's sake he'd simply say "Just Imagine" I asked him since Miss Sheridan had recently returned to read a couple of short stories if there were any plans to do a few full cast stories with her and Eight. He responded with...yep you guessed it, Just Imagine.

Yes, I was having a look in DWM and saw her picture and thought we'd get something more. Very good news!!!

---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------


Got it. Appreciate the heads up and clarification. I do similar and am a regular contributor/scanner for a Sun Conflicts (I’m still getting the hang of this lingo, bear with me) thread on another forum.

Yes, the lingo here isn't too hard to guess. Keep an eye on LC's web site as to new releases and you can kinda guess if someone uploads something, what it will be. LC is Large Conclusions aka Fig Binish (rearrange the F and B of those last two words and you'll get it).

You're doing well on your epic journey through the show. I've been a fan all my life (going back nearly 50 years) and you sound like you'll have seen, read, and listened to more than me by the end of next year. Welcome to the thread anyway. How did you come across the show?

Yes, the lingo here isn't too hard to guess. Keep an eye on LC's web site as to new releases and you can kinda guess if someone uploads something, what it will be. LC is Large Conclusions aka Fig Binish (rearrange the F and B of those last two words and you'll get it).

Yup, I’ve only begun tracking down the LC stuff over past few months and think I’ve just about got it all, except for a few episodes of some of the more niche series, but making headway.


You're doing well on your epic journey through the show. I've been a fan all my life (going back nearly 50 years) and you sound like you'll have seen, read, and listened to more than me by the end of next year. Welcome to the thread anyway. How did you come across the show?

I’d heard about Medic When (wink wink) as a kid, and even had some of the old Mar-Vell 4th Medic comic issues from when I was a kid growing up in the 80’s. I just never got into it until recently, when, based on recommendations to check out the new show, I’d begun researching both the revival and original shows. Being completely OCD I had to start at the beginning, with Hart’s First Medic episodes. Been watching those and the recons/official animated recons and as said am up to Third Medic stuff now.

Plan is to go back and at least listen to all the First through Third Medic’s audio dramas and read the comics (possibly the novels too, we’ll see), before I progress to Fourth Medic era.

Would this thread be appropriate for making request for Drake’s Seven stuff? Specifically the comic series/novels?

Would this thread be appropriate for making request for Drake�s Seven stuff? Specifically the comic series/novels?

yes, this thread gets very expansive at times. are you aware there are a lot of audios out there too?

Would this thread be appropriate for making request for Drake’s Seven stuff? Specifically the comic series/novels?We've traded and discussed quite a wide plethora of ranges. Medic Who, Blokes, Hick Hikers, Shleplock, Trail Searchers, Space Battle to name a few.

yes, this thread gets very expansive at times. are you aware there are a lot of audios out there too?

Yup. Slowly downloading a collection of almost all available options on that front, it’s the comics/novels that seem to be more obscure and harder to find valid sources from.


We've traded and discussed quite a wide plethora of ranges. Medic Who, Blokes, Hick Hikers, Shleplock, Trail Searchers, Space Battle to name a few.

Awesome.

Thanks for the kind welcome and answering my questions, it’s very much appreciated. Hopefully I can contribute and help out. What file hosting service does everyone find best? I use Mega but wanted to get feedback from others on potentially better options.

So couple episodes into Drake’s Eleven and man... I am loving this show.

Despite the low budget special effects, costumes, and sets, and bad ‘70’s hair, the writing is extremely strong, and I can definitely see how this show inspired a lot of aspects of modern sci-fi and probably influenced shows like Babylon 5 and Firefly directly.

I’m absolutely going to devour this show’s content.

So couple episodes into Drake’s Eleven and man... I am loving this show.

Despite the low budget special effects, costumes, and sets, and bad ‘70’s hair, the writing is extremely strong, and I can definitely see how this show inspired a lot of aspects of modern sci-fi and probably influenced shows like Babylon 5 and Firefly directly.

I’m absolutely going to devour this show’s content.

I agree. I've loved it since it was first broadcast and when I re-watch it I'm struck by just how good the writing is. I quite like some of the special effects, but it was just so inconsistent. I know they did their best though. Some great designs too. Paul Darrow went on too say, when asked about a remake of the show, pointed out that Firefly is basically the show for the modern audience (I think the doco was called "Forever Avon" on the extras to the series 4 DVD)

There's a good group on vk that has a lot of stuff uploaded too ( incl magazines). Go to vk.com and type in the show's name (of course you have to have a profile on there).

I agree. I've loved it since it was first broadcast and when I re-watch it I'm struck by just how good the writing is. I quite like some of the special effects, but it was just so inconsistent. I know they did their best though. Some great designs too. Paul Darrow went on too say, when asked about a remake of the show, pointed out that Firefly is basically the show for the modern audience (I think the doco was called "Forever Avon" on the extras to the series 4 DVD)

There's a good group on vk that has a lot of stuff uploaded too ( incl magazines). Go to vk.com and type in the show's name (of course you have to have a profile on there).

Thanks for suggesting that, definitely is going to help fill some holes in the collection. :)

There are some great documentaries on youtube.
They were commissioned for the DVDs for series 1 to 3 - but due to other issues were never used
Making B7 101 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQn-iXhepyI
Making B7 201 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT89ixjCiQA
Making B7 301 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g28oPKuiSiw

So couple episodes into Drake’s Eleven and man... I am loving this show.

Despite the low budget special effects, costumes, and sets, and bad ‘70’s hair, the writing is extremely strong, and I can definitely see how this show inspired a lot of aspects of modern sci-fi and probably influenced shows like Babylon 5 and Firefly directly.

I’m absolutely going to devour this show’s content.

The series finales are all so good! Well, not so much the first one but the others all ramp it up a level, every time!

So the fact that Series 3 of Melody's Memoirs will feature Five and Series 4 is slated to have Four I couldn't help but wonder, now that Bradley has stepped into the role, if LC was planning on going for a full house and team Melody with One at some point. How do you think that would play out?

The series finales are all so good! Well, not so much the first one but the others all ramp it up a level, every time!

I am very much looking forward to them. :)

Wanted to ask, regarding the Paul Darrow B7 novels... are they all canon? I’d heard Avon - A Terrible Aspect conflicts with... stuff (I’m unsure of details as as I’ve not read it or any of the others yet). Maybe something in Lucifer Genesis? I dunno. I’d read some vague posts regarding that but they didn’t go into detail.

Wanted to ask, regarding the Paul Darrow B7 novels... are they all canon? I’d heard Avon - A Terrible Aspect conflicts with... stuff (I’m unsure of details as as I’ve not read it or any of the others yet). Maybe something in Lucifer Genesis? I dunno. I’d read some vague posts regarding that but they didn’t go into detail.

Kind of a meaningless question, since there isn't anyone who can really say what's canon on B7 these days. But the Darrow novels I've read conflict with the TV series, basic scientific astronomical and scientific facts about space (what's a planet? what's a star? what's a solar system? is there air in space? etc etc etc), common sense (China isn't part of the Feds), and any number of other things. If you forget that they're supposed to have anything to do with a TV series, they can be kind of weirdly entertaining, but damn, these books are way the hell out there.

Can anyone possibly help me out with Sienna - Series One? Can’t track down a working link for that anywhere...



Kind of a meaningless question, since there isn't anyone who can really say what's canon on B7 these days. But the Darrow novels I've read conflict with the TV series, basic scientific astronomical and scientific facts about space (what's a planet? what's a star? what's a solar system? is there air in space? etc etc etc), common sense (China isn't part of the Feds), and any number of other things. If you forget that they're supposed to have anything to do with a TV series, they can be kind of weirdly entertaining, but damn, these books are way the hell out there.

But that’s exactly what I mean. I’d read they conflict largely with Avon’s personality and character, and possibly even with what’s established on the show itself.

Seems there will be a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of Coom Doalition after all
https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/eighth-doctor-ravenous

Seems there will be a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of Coom Doalition after all
https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/eighth-doctor-ravenous

Notice the different kind of release schedule. What with changes to the way 4ths are released and now this, they're doing things a bit different.

Notice the different kind of release schedule. What with changes to the way 4ths are released and now this, they're doing things a bit different.
I like that they are. Keeps things fresh and interesting. I decided to treat myself to some LC pre-purchasing after Christmas, so I may be getting a nice little bumper crop of goodies over the course of the year. I may even share with you guys, since you've all been so gracious even back when I was a newbie to LC's output.

Saw LC has a NuMedic New Earth series of audios on slate. Really can't say I'm interested much.

Saw LC has a NuMedic New Earth series of audios on slate. Really can't say I'm interested much.

I think that's dumb. They should make BEST stuff, not MORE stuff. Quality over quantity. LC is really starting to spread itself too thin...

I think that's dumb. They should make BEST stuff, not MORE stuff. Quality over quantity. LC is really starting to spread itself too thin...

I've been saying this for years. Unfortunately people will buy whatever BF release ... even if it's total crap, somebody somewhere will still like it.

even if it's total crap, somebody somewhere will still like it.

It's almost as if people have different opinions about what is crap. I have no problem with LC world building tbh.

>"even if it's total crap"
>audio only comes out in march

Can you not?

It's an expanded universe, let them expand the universe. Nova Terra was one of the most inspired and fun settings in the RTD era and it was a waste to have it for just three episodes. The more LC builds upon concepts and worlds abandoned by the TV writers, the better.

It's an expanded universe, let them expand the universe. But that's part of the issue right there. LC has overexpanded the Whoniverse to the detriment of their core ranges, especially since getting the license to play in the New series sandbox. The other problem they have is the limited pool of writers they use across all their ranges.

I read somewhere that the NuWho stuff often outsells the classic Who ranges, which I suppose is to be expected to some degree. This is why they are banging out as much as they can from the Nu era now they have the licence. I know a lot of classic people will be thinking "How can the medics wife out sell good old sixie?", however she does! Again the 10ant releases have been amongst their biggest ever sellers.
I have even heard it stated that the biggest selling Victorian gents tale was the one with the old potato head!
You may have noticed that the Nu stuff often has elements of the classic series mixed into it..... the reason behind that is to expose classic element to the Nu crowd, in the hope they will explore those ranges too! This is why Ms Pond keeps meeting medics, even though she said to 10ant on telly welly-waffle box that she had never seen him so young, and bare in mind she shuffles off her mortal coil at the end of that tale too!
Us here may think that its all the same, but believe me, there actually is a massive divide for many between classic and Nu, and sales of merchandise, books and indeed the audios know this.
Pure classic stuff is rather a select market for the old guard on the whole, where as the Nu era is well and truly mass market for the masses!
However webs is right, the writing pool is rather limited, and they need to actively search out fresh blood and different voices rather than what we are getting now, which is starting to sound all rather similar despite its so called era that it represents!

...I know a lot of classic people will be thinking "How can the medics wife out sell good old sixie?"...

We're not. We're really not :)

I loved what they did with Colin's Doctor when the range first started. Evelyn is up with my favourite TV series companions. But they've been lost since

But that's part of the issue right there. LC has overexpanded the Whoniverse to the detriment of their core ranges, especially since getting the license to play in the New series sandbox. The other problem they have is the limited pool of writers they use across all their ranges.

The Main Range had some of the strongest stories for years in 2017 so that somewhat undermines your point.

Irony - when people on a thread dedicated to getting stuff for free complain about the quality of the product :p

Irony - when people on a thread dedicated to getting stuff for free complain about the quality of the product :p

But, then again, you are assuming that the people commenting are not buying the product when that may be the case. In the end though, we do have a right to comment on our thoughts of something. I know that I've often bought something I've liked, even though I've had it free. We may not buy the stuff we're complaining about because of the way we feel about it, and that hurts LC. I'm sure that all of us here want to see the best from LC.

I can't comment on a lot of recent stuff as I just haven't had a chance to listen (that's what I get for coming in late and trying to catch up). It is a case that if you spread yourself too thinly something will suffer - that's a known fact. I see it in everyday life. And, LC do only have a set pool of writers. I think what LC may be doing is trying to set themselves up for the future and they throw something up and see if it sticks. Something like the NU Earth would only have to have RTD to sign off on, not the Beeb, if the licence for the Medic went. And the Classic lot aren't going to be around forever. Sales figures will tell, in the end, they mostly do.

But that’s exactly what I mean. I’d read they conflict largely with Avon’s personality and character, and possibly even with what’s established on the show itself.

Yep. They conflict with virtually everything, as if written by someone who'd never seen the show. And according to someone on a popular board for Medic fans and LC fans, one of the recent audios refers to something from the books as part of continuity. Poop.

Yep. They conflict with virtually everything, as if written by someone who'd never seen the show. And according to someone on a popular board for Medic fans and LC fans, one of the recent audios refers to something from the books as part of continuity. Poop.
Kinda makes me glad that LC makes sure to keep continuity somewhat straight in their Medic audios. Although, I do think they also allow for some leeway, especially when it came to the adaptations of the 1990s books.

Notice the different kind of release schedule. What with changes to the way 4ths are released and now this, they're doing things a bit different.

I'm not a big fan of the 4 box set saga. It's too long to maintain interest in a single audio story-arc. For me, anyway.

Here's a link to the new version of the Medic story "Shava", featuring animated scenes for those not originally shot:

https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/19668630/Doctor.Who.S17.Shada.Animated.Reconstruction.BRRip .x264-PBS[e...

So we were discussing how LC was overloading their plate with too many audio ranges and a limited writing pool when low and behold if they don't go and announce a whole slew of brand new original audio series on top of everything else they put out already. Thoughts, comments, criticisms?

So we were discussing how LC was overloading their plate with too many audio ranges and a limited writing pool when low and behold if they don't go and announce a whole slew of brand new original audio series on top of everything else they put out already. Thoughts, comments, criticisms?

Maybe they are thinking that when the licence expires in 2025, there may no longer be a demand for their core output.... its pretty safe to say that a few of the classic medics will be no longer here then!
over the past few years they have been diversifying and now it appears they are taking a massive move into new and original drama.
Maybe the core writers are getting fed up of endless medic tales, after all, no well is endless, and maybe they need to expand their creative ideas into other areas to keep from burning out.

Some of the title announced appeal to me, some don't, however it is a very big ask to splash out �100 on a bunch of untried and untested dramas, its a leap of faith I don't know that many people will take. Yeah we like what LC do, but is there enough of a demand for all of this from its customer base?

Maybe they are thinking that when the licence expires in 2025, there may no longer be a demand for their core output.... its pretty safe to say that a few of the classic medics will be no longer here then!
over the past few years they have been diversifying and now it appears they are taking a massive move into new and original drama.
Maybe the core writers are getting fed up of endless medic tales, after all, no well is endless, and maybe they need to expand their creative ideas into other areas to keep from burning out.

Some of the title announced appeal to me, some don't, however it is a very big ask to splash out �100 on a bunch of untried and untested dramas, its a leap of faith I don't know that many people will take. Yeah we like what LC do, but is there enough of a demand for all of this from its customer base?

It sounds to me that they aren't looking to just their customer base for this. They're looking to EXPAND their customer base. Sounds like a smart move to me, even if it's unlikely that I'll actually listen to any of it. I guess we'll see.

It sounds to me that they aren't looking to just their customer base for this. They're looking to EXPAND their customer base.

I'm not sure that that's true. Briggs has said, in the past, that BF has become resigned to the fact that it's unable to attract non-Who listeners. They know, for example, that despite heavy promotion among the Sherlock Holmes fanbase, their Holmes stories aren't bought by any Holmes fans, just Doctor Who fans who also like a bit of Sherlock Holmes.

It sounds to me that they aren't looking to just their customer base for this. They're looking to EXPAND their customer base. Sounds like a smart move to me, even if it's unlikely that I'll actually listen to any of it. I guess we'll see.

Yes, the sales figures are the ones that will matter in the end. There's always the chance they'll lose the Medic licence, though, thankfully that hasn't been the case. We may remember when Virgin lost the Medic book licence. They continued for a while with the BS range, but that didn't last. LC has done it's best to expand outside of the Medic, even with Medic related stuff, that could go on apart from the Medic. I guess it will be a balancing act of sorts. I just hope that resources get put to the best use and nothing suffers. Apparently stuff life The Pr!s0n3r doesn't sell too much, but it's Br!gg's pet project, and one I adore, which is why it's gotten made (not because I adore it, but because it's Br!gg's pet project!). Right now LC are in a good position, but take away the Medic licence and it may be a different story.

Good on them for branching out. Throw something and see what sticks. Sales figures will tell the story in the end (mind you sales figures haven't explained why some ranges continue on despite not doing well - V!3nn@, I believe is one).

Gawd bless Auntie, she's repeating the Scarf Dr & Savage series 1 R4+ starting on Saturday 20JAN18 at 1800GMT, for those who might not have heard / recorded it already. (repeat 0000 21JAN)

But, then again, you are assuming that the people commenting are not buying the product when that may be the case. In the end though, we do have a right to comment on our thoughts of something. I know that I've often bought something I've liked, even though I've had it free. We may not buy the stuff we're complaining about because of the way we feel about it, and that hurts LC. I'm sure that all of us here want to see the best from LC.

I can't comment on a lot of recent stuff as I just haven't had a chance to listen (that's what I get for coming in late and trying to catch up). It is a case that if you spread yourself too thinly something will suffer - that's a known fact. I see it in everyday life. And, LC do only have a set pool of writers. I think what LC may be doing is trying to set themselves up for the future and they throw something up and see if it sticks. Something like the NU Earth would only have to have RTD to sign off on, not the Beeb, if the licence for the Medic went. And the Classic lot aren't going to be around forever. Sales figures will tell, in the end, they mostly do.

As ever, EM, you speak sense :)

“No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar”
― Abraham Lincoln

<www.sendspace.com/file/g4u2d7>
<www.sendspace.com/file/3zi879>

.
always Ready With Quotations

Here's the new Medic Monthly release #234:

http://audiobookbay.nl/audio-books/bf-doctor-who-monthly-range-234-the-kingdom-of-lies-robert-khan-and-tom-salinsky/

Thanks Sensorite

Hmm. I lost my bookmark to the other place. Would someone mind sending it to me again?
Thanks!

Anyone for Cricket????

<www.sendspace.com/file/5d9hxi>

"To me, cricket is a simple game. Keep it simple and just go out and play."

Shane Warne

As ever, EM, you speak sense :)

Either that, or inane, waffling babble.

Thanks Sensorite!

Nice work Sens!

I thought The Pr!soner was some of the best work LC have done in ages (and the way Elstob would kept pronouncing 'Whaaaaaaaaat?' in the second set added unintentional hilarity). The other stuff I heard in 2017 I don't remember too well - except main range #230, loved that. And #227. And the conclusion of the battle medic, maybe.

Does anyone have any standout 2017 releases I might have missed / forgotten and need to re-assess?

Sensorite, you superstar!

LC won't have any luck expanding their ranges, at least not unless they try harder to distinguish them from DW, which I don't feel that they are. One of the series is even created by Louise. I'd rebrand and do it under a different 'label' altogether. LC means DW and DW means LC. Actually, I'd buy a hat and tip it to them if they published these new ranges under the banner of Large Conclusions.

I've always seen LC offshoots as being like the pantos JNT would put on in the 80's. The only reason you're going to see Puss n Boots is because it has all of the people you know from TV in it. If you lean too hard on your built-in audience, you're never going to engage the general public.

Does anyone have any standout 2017 releases I might have missed / forgotten and need to re-assess?
I thought last year's batch of 2nd Medic stories in the EAs were really solid. I especially liked the first one, because I never knew anything about that part of WW2 before. I love when I learn about parts of history that are out of my frame of reference. Another story that stuck out for me was the concluding 2-parter that Plarc Matt wrote for the Scarfed Medic, since Rom II now has a rival like the Medic has the Mister. I hope said character comes back sometime. Also, the 2-part Small Adventure with Ten and the Victorian Gentleman was a big highlight for me.

I'd buy a hat and tip it to them if they published these new ranges under the banner of Large Conclusions.
Then we'd call them Sizable Ending?

Then we'd call them Sizable Ending?

Sizable Ending or Enormous Completion. Both sound X rated.

Immense Climax?


Another story that stuck out for me was the concluding 2-parter that Plarc Matt wrote for the Scarfed Medic.

Cheers, must catch up with that range! And I feel the same about the historicals. Anneke and Frazer have really shone lately

LC won't have any luck expanding their ranges, at least not unless they try harder to distinguish them from DW, which I don't feel that they are. One of the series is even created by Louise. I'd rebrand and do it under a different 'label' altogether. LC means DW and DW means LC. Actually, I'd buy a hat and tip it to them if they published these new ranges under the banner of Large Conclusions.

I've always seen LC offshoots as being like the pantos JNT would put on in the 80's. The only reason you're going to see Puss n Boots is because it has all of the people you know from TV in it. If you lean too hard on your built-in audience, you're never going to engage the general public.

I agree with you.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------

Thanks everyone for reminding me of all the good stuff I'm still to catch up on. I really should start listening to more again!

LC is not a big company. Even though it has been consistent for fans since its creation, the fact is that it is still basically a small team with a set group of actors. The prestige of getting big name actors to join their ranks is just proof of how well they execute British audio drama.

That said, if I send an email to them asking specific questions, I typically get a reply from a producer/writer/or their financial admin. ------ That is pretty great service, all things considered.

I do think that, following the recent xmas special and LIKELY following the next season, we are going to see LC becoming the goto place for the medic stories. The response was simply too lukewarm with the new regen and it is pretty obvious the BBC did it for a "me too" reason. More Medic fans buying their products= more people listening to their podcast = more people buying the random stuff like Surveyors, Shadows, the Captive and so on.

(oh, by the way I am back after a long hiatus. Life has been crap!)

(oh, by the way I am back after a long hiatus. Life has been crap!)

Were you the guy who made all the homophobic posts about Bill?

Were you the guy who made all the homophobic posts about Bill?

Yeah. He was.
So his views on a woman Doctor are no surprise

I do think that, following the recent xmas special and LIKELY following the next season, we are going to see LC becoming the goto place for the medic stories. The response was simply too lukewarm with the new regen and it is pretty obvious the BBC did it for a "me too" reason.

Wrong at least three times in two sentences. Impressive.

LC is not a big company. Even though it has been consistent for fans since its creation, the fact is that it is still basically a small team with a set group of actors. The prestige of getting big name actors to join their ranks is just proof of how well they execute British audio drama.

That said, if I send an email to them asking specific questions, I typically get a reply from a producer/writer/or their financial admin. ------ That is pretty great service, all things considered.

I do think that, following the recent xmas special and LIKELY following the next season, we are going to see LC becoming the goto place for the medic stories. The response was simply too lukewarm with the new regen and it is pretty obvious the BBC did it for a "me too" reason. More Medic fans buying their products= more people listening to their podcast = more people buying the random stuff like Surveyors, Shadows, the Captive and so on.

(oh, by the way I am back after a long hiatus. Life has been crap!)

Welcome back. Sorry to hear that things have been crap. I hope that things are getting better for you. If you feel like a chat you can always PM me.

No sign of the Baker yet? Too bad, I'm quite looking forward to his latest culinary creations.

No sign of the Baker yet? Too bad, I'm quite looking forward to his latest culinary creations.

No, not yet. I don't feel up to making any bread in this heat (it's summer here in Oz).

No, not yet. I don't feel up to making any bread in this heat (it's summer here in Oz).I'm not a big fan of hot weather but considering we've had two weeks of single digit weather where I am I'd take a good heatwave right now.

I can`t seem to find it anywhere,
Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Cheers.

No, not yet. I don't feel up to making any bread in this heat (it's summer here in Oz).

It's snowing, quite heavily, outside my window.

... we've had two weeks of single digit weather where I am...

Now you're just teasing me!

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------


It's snowing, quite heavily, outside my window.

That's quite enough teasing. Stop it ;)

---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

Did anybody see pictures of that storm in Germany? Now that was some wind!!!

Were you the guy who made all the homophobic posts about Bill?
My issue with Bill was not that she was gay, but that they made it a Thing in several episodes of her run, when it didn't really have anything to do with the story.

My issue with a female Medic --- which I don't even have --- is that they are poised to do the exact same thing again, sacrificing the fact that it shouldn't be a big deal to have a female Medic for the sake of saying "Look its a female medic!". The stories should be able to support themselves without pushing an agenda.

If this site has changed to the point that the most reasoned responses I get are just straight attacks, I will just go back to silent mode. My points are not unreasonable or unsustainable.


And thanks EM, appreciate it!

[QUOTE=kimekaro;3728022]My issue with Bill was not that she was gay, but that they made it a Thing in several episodes of her run, when it didn't really have anything to do with the story.

just one question, did you have the same issue with clara and danny? or amy and rory? certainly the shows makers they made their relationships a "thing" , just curious?

The medics themselves can be annoying, intriguing, awe inspiring and brilliant the more you get to know them. The fact that this medic is female makes the story possibilities very interesting considering how women have been ignored and dismissed over the centuries. I can picture JW being burned at the stake for witchcraft or heresy simply for contradicting some snooty clerical leader or rubbing someone the wrong way. Look at the rise of women in entertainment recently the casting of a female medic can be taken as a good thing. If not this upcoming series then maybe the next we'll see a new Missy or maybe The Master with a bit of reversal from Capaldi/Gomez. I am willing to give her a chance just to see the story possibilities it should at the least be interesting.

Some new recordings of some old yearlies are in the bay

My issue with a female Medic --- which I don't even have --- is that they are poised to do the exact same thing again, sacrificing the fact that it shouldn't be a big deal to have a female Medic for the sake of saying "Look its a female medic!". The stories should be able to support themselves without pushing an agenda.

If this site has changed to the point that the most reasoned responses I get are just straight attacks, I will just go back to silent mode. My points are not unreasonable or unsustainable.


So your perfectly reasonable issue that you don't have is based on something that you think might possibly happen in episodes no one has seen yet. Well, hard to argue with that.

If this site has changed to the point that the most reasoned responses I get are just straight attacks, I will just go back to silent mode. My points are not unreasonable or unsustainable.


im sorry but was the statement " the ridiculous PC lesbian nonsense" a reasoned response? actually its a little offensive, sorry if my answer makes you feel "straight attacked" maybe you should consider what you post online if you want a warmer reception.

If this site has changed to the point that the most reasoned responses I get are just straight attacks, I will just go back to silent mode. My points are not unreasonable or unsustainable.


im sorry but was the statement " the ridiculous PC lesbian nonsense" a reasoned response? actually its a little offensive, sorry if my answer makes you feel "straight attacked" maybe you should consider what you post online if you want a warmer reception.

It's bigotted nonsense. People hiding behind "PC gone mad!!!" so they don't have to admit to themselves they are homophobic.

[QUOTE=loonyboyx;3728162]It's bigotted nonsense. People hiding behind "PC gone mad!!!" so they don't have to admit to themselves they are homophobic.[/QUO

i must agree with this,and i think its important to call this stuff out.

Hey kimekaro, nice to see you back. Yeah, I completely agree that the next medic's gender should not be determined solely by any socio-political agenda, just as a companion's sexual preference should not be their defining characteristic.

Hope you stick around for awhile now, but if not I understand why

And would the rest of ye please quit the reactionary schtick, no-one here is out to cause any offence and everyone's opinion is valid

Yeah, I completely agree that the next medic's gender should not be determined solely by any socio-political agenda, just as a companion's sexual preference should not be their defining characteristic. I agree that a character's sexual orientation shouldn't be an issue, but Moff and company kinda made it an issue when they made it Potts' only distinguishing trait. She was a one note cardboard character who's only notable characteristic was that she was gay. They never bothered to make her more than that one fact.

I agree that a character's sexual orientation shouldn't be an issue, but Moff and company kinda made it an issue when they made it Potts' only distinguishing trait and felt it necessary to remind viewers of the fact in practically every episode instead of just letting it be one aspect of the character. That was my main issue with her. She was a one note cardboard character who's only notable trait was that she was gay. They never bothered to move her beyond that one fact.
If you honestly think being gay was Bill's only character trait (when it was really only brought up like four or five times total, and half of those only in a roundabout way if memory serves) then I can't help wondering what version of Doctor Who you've been watching. Perhaps you stumbled upon a porn parody by mistake?

I said it was her only distinguishing trait. I neglected to mention her grating annoyance factor. I've rewatched Series 10 (the episodes I can tolerate) a couple of times now and Bill has still never grown on me. I find her as annoying as I did the first time through.

.

And would the rest of ye please quit the reactionary schtick, no-one here is out to cause any offence and everyone's opinion is valid

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
But that also means that people can challenge it.

And if it's a bigoted opinion then you're going to get an awful lot of people doing that


I agree that a character's sexual orientation shouldn't be an issue, but Moff and company kinda made it an issue when they made it Potts' only distinguishing trait. She was a one note cardboard character who's only notable characteristic was that she was gay. They never bothered to make her more than that one fact.
Bill's up there with Donna and Sarah Jane Smith for me. The best of the best in companion terms.
She was warm and funny and human

You're entitled to your opinion as am I. And I'm definitely not homophobic. One of my best friends is a gay woman. She and I are as close as two peas in a pod. She's a Who fan as well and she thought it was a great idea that they had an openly gay character travelling with the Medic but can't stand Bill either. She agrees with me that beyond the milestone of her being the first openly gay companion she isn't very interesting.

.

It's quite obvious that trying to discuss anything with you is a useless proposition. You're obviously one of those self righteous types who thinks that disagreeing with your opinion about one character is a blanket attack against all peoples of alternative orientation. So as I said before you are welcome to your opinion about Bill as am I. If you don't like that it doesn't agree with yours that's just too bad. We'll leave it at that.

I apologize for my statement that I have an opinion that Bill was misused as a character in order to push an agenda has been - in turn - misused here. The point I was trying to make was that Doctor Who is a childrens show, adults have grown up with it and enjoy it for the same reasons they did as kids. Sexual Orientation - or indeed - the fact of the Doctor being a man or woman should have no impact on the quality of the stories themselves.

As to Bills characteristics and whether or not her being gay was her major point of interest --- well, she is basically a generic companion outside of that --- but that shouldn't lessen your enjoyment of the character if you like her.



Now, that point aside, to the issue that seems to be the sticking point here;
I absolutely think that "homophobia" is being overused in this discussion to a point where it basically is only being seen as insulting troll response rather than trying to convey a message. People not liking a character because they are trying to push a view doesn't make them somehow afraid of that view; it means that they just don't see a reason for a character like that to be used to promote said view.

There are PLENTY of BBC programs that could be better served with more diversity than a show about an alien who travels all of time and space and encounters creatures with vastly expanded sexualities/socio/economic views. I Mean RTD basically set the standard for it.

---
And thanks for the welcome back, I am hoooping to continue providing interview shares as they come out as per my modus operandi.

.

I apologize for my statement that I have an opinion that Bill was misused as a character in order to push an agenda has been - in turn - misused here. The point I was trying to make was that Doctor Who is a childrens show, adults have grown up with it and enjoy it for the same reasons they did as kids. Sexual Orientation - or indeed - the fact of the Doctor being a man or woman should have no impact on the quality of the stories themselves.
And that is the problem.
You never raised this about Amy and Rory. You never raised this about Rose and Mickey. You never raised this about River. About Martha. About Clara. About Donna...
All those characters had sexualities too and they were essential to their storylines.
You only see a problem with sexuality being raised when it is a gay character.
That is why we're saying this is homophobia

And that is the problem.
You never raised this about Amy and Rory. You never raised this about Rose and Mickey. You never raised this about River. About Martha. About Clara. About Donna...
All those characters had sexualities too and they were essential to their storylines.
You only see a problem with sexuality being raised when it is a gay character.
That is why we're saying this is homophobia

this is the heart of the matter, great posting.

even in the classic series characters sexuality informed their personality's, jo grant falling in love with a man and getting engaged in the green death for example. but the world has moved on, gay people are more visible, diversity is a thing. accept it and stop complaining.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

There are PLENTY of BBC programs that could be better served with more diversity than a show about an alien who travels all of time and space and encounters creatures with vastly expanded sexualities/socio/economic views. I Mean RTD basically set the standard for it.

absolute nonsense, again i ask you a simple question, did you have the same issue with all the previous companions who had story-lines which included and were affected by their hetro sexual partners? at least be honest in your prejudices.

I've never liked all the relationship nonsense and the soap opera type aspects since the series return. But, I acknowledge it was genius on RTD's behalf to introduce. Look at charts of the highest rating programs - in the UK you have Eastenders, in Australia, Home & Away. The fact is, to get more viewers, it introduced these elements.

It doesn't mean that I have to like these elements of the show though. I've always hated this new thing (well, since the series' return) of the companion pining over the Medic. I also wish that people would stop jumping on other people just because they express a view contrary to yours. Maybe someone thought the focus on relationships has just gone too far - the straw that broke the camel's back if you like. It's also like the name of the show - who's the title character. We all know that some companions in the past suffered with poor writing (Dodo, we're looking at you, for one) and the producers of Nu Medic have sought to rectify that. However, in doing so, have gone too far (Cl@ra is a good example). I thought Bill was such a good improvement and loved the character. I thought her sexuality was well handled, though it could be seen as a bit manipulative by some (almost like, look we have a lesbian character and make a deal out of it). Or, look we have a female Medic now. I guess they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. But it is seen by some people as being manipulative, instead of just getting on with making a good show.

I just want a good show, that is primarily about the lead character (it doesn't mean that companions or other characters have to suffer poor writing) but the focus should be on the main character. I admit that I didn't like the idea of a female lead (not because I'm against females) because a male lead is what I've always known and loved. I did see photos of Jodie in character, wearing the outfit she fell to Earth in, and thought she looked quite like a P3rtw33 Medic (though I detest the outfit she's supposed to wear). I'm warming to the idea of a female Medic now. I hope she doesn't get so lost with all these new companions though.

When I arrived in Australia, in 1977 (from the UK) I started being on the end of a lot of homophobia. I don't have a very manly voice or was'nt very athletic and it was always, wrongly, assumed I was gay. I used to be taunted constantly and be hit, bashed a lot. It's not nice. I last experienced it when I started work at my last job (in a Nursing Home) and we were getting the residents up for the day. One of the old guys had an erection as we got him up and the nurse I was working with made stupid comments to me liking what I saw (thankfully she wasn't there that long). So, for 20 years I put up with that crap. I do know what it's like.

So, for me, I ended up not liking Cl@r@, after I initially did like the character (when she became an annoying charcter who became the focus of the show). That doesn't make me a misogynist. I ended up hating R0se and her pining after the medic, same with M@rth@, for the same reason (doesn't make me racist). You see where I'm going. R0se may have been heroic, brave, smart etc but my one lasting impression is her pining after the Medic. That's a heterosexual pairing too. I thought B!ll was a good step as a companion - the focus wasn't on her, in the main, and she felt like a breath of fresh air. As I say, I thought the handling of her sexuality was handled well. Others may have felt differently - it doesn't make them homophobic! Just the same as my not liking Cl@r@, R0se or M@rth@ doesn't make me a misogynist or racist. As I say - I had a problem with their heterosexual pining.

Now, can we please just move on and don't make this political. I get the feeling that some people are being misunderstood. It is hard to express oneself solely through the written (typed) word.

I try to live by the creed of treating others how I'd like to be treated. Please, let's just get on.

So, for me, I ended up not liking Cl@r@, after I initially did like the character (when she became an annoying charcter who became the focus of the show). That doesn't make me a misogynist. I ended up hating R0se and her pining after the medic, same with M@rth@, for the same reason (doesn't make me racist). You see where I'm going. R0se may have been heroic, brave, smart etc but my one lasting impression is her pining after the Medic. That's a heterosexual pairing too. I thought B!ll was a good step as a companion - the focus wasn't on her, in the main, and she felt like a breath of fresh air. As I say, I thought the handling of her sexuality was handled well. Others may have felt differently - it doesn't make them homophobic! Just the same as my not liking Cl@r@, R0se or M@rth@ doesn't make me a misogynist or racist. As I say - I had a problem with their heterosexual pining.

EM..........i like you, you come across as a nice guy, but i disagree with your assessment. some members on here have expressed toxic views based purely on bills sexuality. thats homophobic. your examples above about previous characters drawbacks are not purely based on sexuality but are based on their characteristics,i.e. pining for the medic.

you've call call this crap out in life, otherwise people still think its acceptable to voice these awful opinions, and society never develops, its not a matter of free speech EM its about respecting people. its not cool to equate equal rights to "PC nonsense". i will fight that attitude tooth and nail.

My issue with Bill was not that she was gay, but that they made it a Thing in several episodes of her run, when it didn't really have anything to do with the story.

My issue with a female Medic --- which I don't even have --- is that they are poised to do the exact same thing again, sacrificing the fact that it shouldn't be a big deal to have a female Medic for the sake of saying "Look its a female medic!". The stories should be able to support themselves without pushing an agenda.

If this site has changed to the point that the most reasoned responses I get are just straight attacks, I will just go back to silent mode. My points are not unreasonable or unsustainable.


And thanks EM, appreciate it!

Your points are both unreasonable and unsustainable and worthy of "attack." Showing the existence of people who aren't like you is not an agenda. Your decision to paint showing diversity as an agenda is an agenda, and an ugly, bigoted one. You don't get to passive aggressively make bigoted comments, and then pretend it's our fault when we react to what you've said. Watching bigots play the victim is getting so tiresome. That's not an attack on you. It's a reaction to the bigoted things you've said.

When you're not a straight white male, there are differences in how you live your life, based on how others see and treat you. That's a simple fact that cannot be ignored. When you're LGBT, people assume that you're not. As such, you're constantly coming out to them to avoid confusion. To NOT have it come up at all would be unrealistic. In fact, there have been detailed analyses done on exactly how often they have made the sexuality of a companion an issue on the show, and Bill comes up on the lower end of the spectrum on NuWho. The fact that you don't see that shows your agenda.

Here's a link to one of the analyses.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/6nxbpc/a_look_at_the_sexuality_of_companions_and_whether/

You have literally no idea why they chose this woman as the Doctor, or how they will handle it. The fact that you think that you know shows YOUR agenda.

---------- Post added at 03:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------


You're entitled to your opinion as am I. And I'm definitely not homophobic. One of my best friends is a gay woman. She and I are as close as two peas in a pod. She's a Who fan as well and she thought it was a great idea that they had an openly gay character travelling with the Medic but can't stand Bill either. She agrees with me that beyond the milestone of her being the first openly gay companion she isn't very interesting.

Saying that you can't be homophobic because you have a lesbian friend who agrees with you is just ludicrous.
I have a black friend, so I can't be racist.
Pure and utter bull$#!+.

They spent more camera time in more episodes talking about Bill's reactions to the early death of her mother than they did about her sexuality. It was even the resolution to a three part story! Hell, we know more about her background than we do about Clara's, who was around for 2.5 times longer than Bill was. And who spent a year in a building relationship, but you're not complaining about her sexuality being her primary character trait. Most fans have agreed that they liked Bill more than any companion in ages and that she was the highlight of this season. She had many other traits that YOU CHOSE not to see. The fact that you chose not to see it says more about you than it does about her. The fact that you chose to see her sexuality as her primary character trait is precisely what makes you homophobic, or to be more precise heterosexist. Along with the fact that you're choosing to continue to complain about it even after she's gone from the show.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. But it's how YOU are choosing to present yourself. If you're claiming that you're better than this, then BE BETTER THAN THIS.
You've been a good and valued member of this community. But that doens't mean that we're not going to comment when you say bigoted things.

EM..........i like you, you come across as a nice guy, but i disagree with your assessment. some members on here have expressed toxic views based purely on bills sexuality. that's homophobic. your examples above about previous characters drawbacks are not purely based on sexuality but are based on their characteristics,i.e. pining for the medic.



But, the pining is a fact based on their sexuality. About the only man who showed some interest in the Medic was Jack (though his character wanted to jump anything!). The show really pushed the heterosexual cliche with the companion pining after the Medic too - kind of like how Hollywood always has to have love interest between men and women in their movies. I also get pissed off that in a lot of hero movies that the hero is often a tall, white, muscled male.

People are right that there's still a lot of ground to be made up, but no-one helps the cause by being aggressive to others.

Though, for others I will just say,as I said at the bottom of what I last said, that it may be misconstrued as to what a person may be trying to say because they find it hard to put it into words. I didn't get the vibe that people were saying they didn't like Bill because she was a lesbian. You see what kimekaro said here: "I apologize for my statement that I have an opinion that Bill was misused as a character in order to push an agenda has been - in turn - misused here".

I like Star Trek Discovery. They have a gay couple on there. Though it's not done in a "look, we're a gay couple in a TV show". It's matter of fact and done in a well-handled way. The fact it's done on the Medic really seems to have attracted so much more attention, I don't know why. Maybe it's because it was done in a more obvious way because I didn't hear any criticism of the way it is with Discovery. You don't hear Stamets and Paul on Discovery saying to others - "We're a gay couple". But on the Medic she makes a point several times about being a lesbian. Maybe that's why it's drawn criticism? As I have said, I had no problem with the way Bill's sexuality was discussed on the Medic though. Just trying to understand why people have a problem.

Please, just let us all be respectful of one another.

I wish there were more people around like you, EM - thoughtful, honest, diplomatic.

You can never have too much diplomacy on an internet forum.

But, the pining is a fact based on their sexuality. About the only man who showed some interest in the Medic was Jack (though his character wanted to jump anything!). The show really pushed the heterosexual cliche with the companion pining after the Medic too - kind of like how Hollywood always has to have love interest between men and women in their movies. I also get pissed off that in a lot of hero movies that the hero is often a tall, white, muscled male.

People are right that there's still a lot of ground to be made up, but no-one helps the cause by being aggressive to others.

Though, for others I will just say,as I said at the bottom of what I last said, that it may be misconstrued as to what a person may be trying to say because they find it hard to put it into words. I didn't get the vibe that people were saying they didn't like Bill because she was a lesbian. You see what kimekaro said here: "I apologize for my statement that I have an opinion that Bill was misused as a character in order to push an agenda has been - in turn - misused here".

I like Star Trek Discovery. They have a gay couple on there. Though it's not done in a "look, we're a gay couple in a TV show". It's matter of fact and done in a well-handled way. The fact it's done on the Medic really seems to have attracted so much more attention, I don't know why. Maybe it's because it was done in a more obvious way because I didn't hear any criticism of the way it is with Discovery. You don't hear Stamets and Paul on Discovery saying to others - "We're a gay couple". But on the Medic she makes a point several times about being a lesbian. Maybe that's why it's drawn criticism? As I have said, I had no problem with the way Bill's sexuality was discussed on the Medic though. Just trying to understand why people have a problem.

Please, just let us all be respectful of one another.

honestly, its a shame that you dont understand how hurtful some of the comments on here are. imagine spending your whole life having hetrosexual characters and situations placed in front of you and having to accept it and not take it personally.

imagine that suddenly gay characters are integrated into culture and your favorite shows and you think to yourself, finally this is fair.

then you have to listen to people talking about an "agenda" or political correctness or having lifestyles shoved down their throats, and you realize that some people just believe that different rules apply to different people.

respect goes both ways. you want respect, be respectful. im not apologizing for being direct here.

and finally in the nicest possible way, please dont be homophobic, otherwise people will get upset and angry.

You know, I think Jamie is gayer than Bill.
He was pretty cute with the Doctor.

Surely we have to accept that there will always be some resistance to changing cultural norms though? You grow up, you form a concept of the world, then that concept is challenged and it causes cognitive dissonance, and makes us uncomfortable, so we form strange rationales to try and minimise that.

My point is that I haven't seen any comments on this forum about Bill that are borne from a desire to deliberately antagonise or worsen anyone's suffering. Whereas some responses to these comments have been a bit aggressive and that makes the forum a worse place to be.

I bet in the mirror-universe - the one that doesn't have our hideous stupid socio-cultural history - we're all partying together quite happily

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 PM ----------

Actually, having thought about it for a further 2 minutes, I'm sort of glad this has provoked some aggression, cos the issue is important and sometimes I need to be reminded of the strength of feeling it raises... I just don't want anyone to leave the forum over it


*quietly locks the exits

Ms. Potts has proven to be a hot button character that's for certain, and not in a good way. There has never been a more polarizing and controversy inducing character in the history of medicdom.

.

There has never been a more polarizing and controversy inducing character in the history of medicdom.
*cough*Rose Tyler*cough* Just sayin'...

and finally in the nicest possible way, please dont be homophobic, otherwise people will get upset and angry.

I'm not being homophobic, so please don't call me such. I never said I had a problem with Bill or the way her sexuality was handled. Please get your facts straight.

What I am trying to do is to understand why others are having a problem. Also there seems to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions on here. I'm trying to mediate, not cause problems. Some people on here mentioned about people suddenly attacking a gay character, so I've pointed out that that it's not a new thing, attacking relationships on the show. As I have pointed out that I have never liked the "soap opera" parts of the show, but I understand the show perhaps needed that for a modern audience, to get the viewers.

I have also pointed out the contrast between Star Trek Discovery and the normalcy of a gay relationship on there, which hasn't attracted any bad comment (to my knowledge anyway) to the situation with Bill on the Medic and tried to understand why the Medic has attracted bad comments - I suggested that maybe it was because of the way it was done in the Medic.

I have made NO bad comments about anybody, nor said anything homophobic. I have stated many, many times that I have no problem with Bill or the way her sexuality was handled. I also like the way Stamet's and Paul's relationship is handled in Star Trek Discovery. How is that homophobic.

As I have also said, I have been the subject of homophobia - quite violent homophobia. That lasted for twenty years (until I got married). I know what it's like to be on the receiving end. It made me very depressed and suicidal. It led to my dropping out of school at an early age. It hurts me still today. I know what it's like.
however, knee-jerk reactions do not help. Preaching love, one must love first. For the record, one of my best friends is gay. He used to be on here regularly but got put off by the bitching going on, now he just lurks. I message him everyday over Facebook. My only two, beautiful nephews are gay. Don't ever call me homophobic.

All I know is that knee-jerk reactions will alienate (on BOTH sides). If you want respect, be respectful of others.

Like it, or not. Many people will still have problems with LGBT characters, on TV, and in real life. That's a fact. It can be due to many things - the way they are brought up, the social norms around them or whatever. LGBT relationships ARE appearing more and more on TV and movies. RTD deliberately puts such characters into what he makes - this may be confronting to some people. Some people may argue that it's not appropriate for a family show like the Medic to have such concepts in a show that started off for children. You have to realise that it's going to take time for people to be used to seeing LGBT characters on TV and movies. It can't be forced. What I do know is that violence and nasty words aren't going to change people's opinions.

I think you'll find, in the main, that people are more accepting of LGBT people, but it'll take time.

But, never call me homophobic. I have never said anything of that nature.

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------


*cough*Rose Tyler*cough* Just sayin'...

Exactly!

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------


You know, I think Jamie is gayer than Bill.
He was pretty cute with the Doctor.

How I agree! Especially their innuendo laden comments "That's a big one, isn't it Jamie!".

I've never liked all the relationship nonsense and the soap opera type aspects since the series return. But, I acknowledge it was genius on RTD's behalf to introduce. Look at charts of the highest rating programs - in the UK you have Eastenders, in Australia, Home & Away. The fact is, to get more viewers, it introduced these elements.

It doesn't mean that I have to like these elements of the show though. I've always hated this new thing (well, since the series' return) of the companion pining over the Medic. I also wish that people would stop jumping on other people just because they express a view contrary to yours. Maybe someone thought the focus on relationships has just gone too far - the straw that broke the camel's back if you like. It's also like the name of the show - who's the title character. We all know that some companions in the past suffered with poor writing (Dodo, we're looking at you, for one) and the producers of Nu Medic have sought to rectify that. However, in doing so, have gone too far (Cl@ra is a good example). I thought Bill was such a good improvement and loved the character. I thought her sexuality was well handled, though it could be seen as a bit manipulative by some (almost like, look we have a lesbian character and make a deal out of it). Or, look we have a female Medic now. I guess they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. But it is seen by some people as being manipulative, instead of just getting on with making a good show.

I just want a good show, that is primarily about the lead character (it doesn't mean that companions or other characters have to suffer poor writing) but the focus should be on the main character. I admit that I didn't like the idea of a female lead (not because I'm against females) because a male lead is what I've always known and loved. I did see photos of Jodie in character, wearing the outfit she fell to Earth in, and thought she looked quite like a P3rtw33 Medic (though I detest the outfit she's supposed to wear). I'm warming to the idea of a female Medic now. I hope she doesn't get so lost with all these new companions though.

When I arrived in Australia, in 1977 (from the UK) I started being on the end of a lot of homophobia. I don't have a very manly voice or was'nt very athletic and it was always, wrongly, assumed I was gay. I used to be taunted constantly and be hit, bashed a lot. It's not nice. I last experienced it when I started work at my last job (in a Nursing Home) and we were getting the residents up for the day. One of the old guys had an erection as we got him up and the nurse I was working with made stupid comments to me liking what I saw (thankfully she wasn't there that long). So, for 20 years I put up with that crap. I do know what it's like.

So, for me, I ended up not liking Cl@r@, after I initially did like the character (when she became an annoying charcter who became the focus of the show). That doesn't make me a misogynist. I ended up hating R0se and her pining after the medic, same with M@rth@, for the same reason (doesn't make me racist). You see where I'm going. R0se may have been heroic, brave, smart etc but my one lasting impression is her pining after the Medic. That's a heterosexual pairing too. I thought B!ll was a good step as a companion - the focus wasn't on her, in the main, and she felt like a breath of fresh air. As I say, I thought the handling of her sexuality was handled well. Others may have felt differently - it doesn't make them homophobic! Just the same as my not liking Cl@r@, R0se or M@rth@ doesn't make me a misogynist or racist. As I say - I had a problem with their heterosexual pining.

Now, can we please just move on and don't make this political. I get the feeling that some people are being misunderstood. It is hard to express oneself solely through the written (typed) word.

I try to live by the creed of treating others how I'd like to be treated. Please, let's just get on.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way as you always come over as a kind hearted chap who wants the best for everyone but it's about not politics, it's about people's real life. The life people posting here lead every single day.

We live in an age were people think they can say bigoted crap and use the word "opinion" as if it's a magic shield that protects them from being called out on it. What do you think the Medic would say about that.

Rory and Amy were highly sexual and had sex in the tardis ffs. Did the internet explode?

.

As I've said, I have always had a problem with the soap opera elements, as I have always stated. But that doesn't get the headlines, does it. Though, as I have always said too, that I understand that it brings in a wider audience, having the soap opera elements.

I'd much rather the show would just tell a good Sci-Fi story like it used to, instead of going into the love lives of the various characters and pining after the Doctor.

It's good that this thing has happened though, as it's important to have dialogue about it. And it just shows we all still have a way to go.

On another note, my wife is Asian. We still have a lot of racism against people from Asia in Australia also. So the LGBT isn't the only issue to still requite further work. In Australia's case we were nearly invaded by the Japanese in WWII so, with the older generation, that may be why some here still feel the way they do about anyone Asian (though my wife is from the Philippines). When I wrote to my Grandmother, before getting married, that I planned to marry someone from the Philippines she wrote back that why would I marry someone from Asia, as they all have AIDS and are only after money (how ignorant some people can be!).

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------


I hope you don't take this the wrong way as you always come over as a kind hearted chap who wants the best for everyone but it's about not politics, it's about people's real life. The life people posting here lead every single day.

We live in an age were people think they can say bigoted crap and use the word "opinion" as if it's a magic shield that protects them from being called out on it. What do you think the Medic would say about that.

I'm not trying to cause division among people, I'm trying to unite people. I'm also trying to look for the best in people.

It's also true that people's comments may be misconstrued. I know I have a hard time putting into words what I mean (I have dyslexia) which is why I waffle on sometimes, in a way to try and express what I mean.

Do you get that I'm not homophobic? I have never said anything to indicate so. As I said, I'm trying to mediate. Does it seem that I am trying to defend someone? I am trying to get people on both sides to work things through and come to an understanding. I do see many knee-jerk reactions, and it comes with such vitriole and aggression. That's what I don't like.

As I've said, these things will take time. You can't force them. No wonder people get turned off by coming here.

I used to go to school and people would call me all sorts of names and I'd be hit. People would start fights. I'd get in trouble because of other people doing these things to me. I used to go in the art room each lunchtime - away from everybody, sit under the desk and cry my heart out. At night I'd imagine going on the roof with something around my neck and jumping off. I cut myself on my wrists, burnt myself with a lighter. I'd hate myself. I know what homophobia is like. It still haunts me today.

On balance I think we can all agree that this thread is increasingly toxic and is slowly dying. I'd be surprised if even half of the former visitors to the site even bother any more so you should all feel free to continue squabbling but be very aware that you're actually just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

On balance I think we can all agree that this thread is increasingly toxic and is slowly dying. I'd be surprised if even half of the former visitors to the site even bother any more so you should all feel free to continue squabbling but be very aware that you're actually just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

It's a shame. I used to like coming here.

And this has stirred up all the crap that I've endured, just when I thought I'd dealt with it. Though, now it seems people keep on heaping crap on me, for daring to try and be a mediator. Seems people don't want to change.

Some people are having problems because they're bigots. Sorry, but we need to stop making excuses for bigots. The longer we do so, the longer their bigotry is tolerated. And that doesn't get us anywhere closer to resolution any faster. it only prolongs the bigotry and keeps us fighting each other.

You can't compare Bill to Stamets and Culber on Trek. For one thing, everyone on the show, other than Burnham and Mudd already knew they were a couple before the show's first episode happened. They've never left the ship to come in contact with new people. So, there's no reason for them to ever tell anyone about their sexuality, other than Burnham. (It didn't exactly come up when Mudd was trying to destroy the ship hundreds of times.) They also live in a future where people aren't assumed to be heterosexual, unlike our time that Bill is from. In our world, LGBT people have to come out almost every day, because people do assume that we're straight.

Bill meets new people in every episode. One of the oldest tropes in Who, new or old is a character falling for the companion. The very first companion on the show, Susan, left for love. How often did it happen to Jo? Hell, she also left the show to marry one such crush in the end. So, it makes sense that it would happen to a spunky, beautiful young lady like Bill. And any good writer would love to take the trope and throw in a curveball like this. But, unfortunately, often guys like the guy in Knock Knock don't take no for an answer. But if you're a lesbian, telling them that you don't do guys is usually a surefire way to end the flirting.

Otherwise, when else did it really come up? She's single. Like every other companion character on the new show, she's interested in dating. She meets someone she likes in her first episode. When that doesn't exactly end well (for now), she tried out someone else, who can't cope with all the weirdness. In the end, she ends up being saved by that first crush, who she goes off with. But somehow, that's making her sexuality a spotlight when Clara spent a WHOLE SEASON in a building relationship with Danny, with it highlighted and given MUCH more screen time in nearly every episode?

And the companion before Clara, the beloved Amy, was completely defined by her relationships. She starts out engaged to Rory, but quickly crushes on 11. He sets her straight (so to speak), and she ends up marrying her man. They have sex in the TARDIS, including some hot Roman cosplay on their honeymoon. They have a kid who we later realize we already know, and they set out to save that child. When Amy can't have more kids, they separate and then come back together, because of their love for each other. In the end, she leaves the crew and the Medic to be with the man she lives. And all throughout that, men from across space and time fell in love with her. If there's ever been a companion who was defined by her sexuality and whose sexuality became major long-running storylines, it was Amy.

But, wait, it's Bill who's sexuality was thrown in our faces? Seriously? Sorry, but if you really think that after two companions whose sexuality and relationships became major ongoing plot points, then yes, you have a problem with the show showing homosexuality. And that makes you a bigot. Period. Maybe not deliberately so. But the sooner such people confront their own ugly bigotries, the sooner they can learn to get over them. That's good for all of us, including them.

It's time to stop coddling bigots.
It's sad that they can so often dominate and derail conversations, like they have done here, turning otherwise friendly groups into ugly and heated debates about bigotry.

I like Bill. A good well-rounded and interesting character. I also, however, feel her sexuality was treated a little on the heavy-handed side.

Did you know Rose had a thing for the Doctor?
Did you know Martha had a thing for the Doctor?
Did you know River's a badass?
Did you know Danny Pink was a soldier?

Barely an episode went by without it being mentioned in some way that Bill was gay. I think I got it after the fourth or fifth time.
It was about on level with Jack's irresistible allure and pansexuality for how inevitably the topic would come up.

But maybe that's realistic for a homosexual person meeting a large number and variety of new people on a frequent basis in a heteronormative universe.

For people in the mundane world, though, who have routine daily lives, it's a bit weird.
I'm in performing arts and higher education, so nearly all of my close friend group is openly LGBTQ+; I can tell you, we are all of us more than our sexuality. It just isn't something we discuss at every event.

I like Bill. A good well-rounded and interesting character. I also, however, feel her sexuality was treated a little on the heavy-handed side.

Did you know Rose had a thing for the Doctor?
Did you know Martha had a thing for the Doctor?
Did you know River's a badass?
Did you know Danny Pink was a soldier?

Barely an episode went by without it being mentioned in some way that Bill was gay. I think I got it after the fourth or fifth time.
It was about on level with Jack's irresistible allure and pansexuality for how inevitably the topic would come up.

But maybe that's realistic for a homosexual person meeting a large number and variety of new people on a frequent basis in a heteronormative universe.

For people in the mundane world, though, who have routine daily lives, it's a bit weird.
I'm in performing arts and higher education, so nearly all of my close friend group is openly LGBTQ+; I can tell you, we are all of us more than our sexuality. It just isn't something we discuss at every event.

Thank you for putting it so nicely.

When I first started talking with my friend, he never once felt he had the need to tell me he was gay. We wer just having a good talk about things. We happened to discuss the Third medic and he stated how much he loves that Medic because he understood how it felt to be different, being gay. You see, that doesn't define him. He doesn't feel the need to go around telling everybody, it doesn't define him.

I like Bill. A good well-rounded and interesting character. I also, however, feel her sexuality was treated a little on the heavy-handed side.
Barely an episode went by without it being mentioned in some way that Bill was gay. That is essentially the point I was trying to make, but it got misconstrued as an attack against her sexuality, which it absolutely wasn't. Go back and look at any article or press release written before series 10 aired and I think you'll find that nearly every one draws attention to her orientation. The fact that Moff and company seemed to think it was necessary to keep drawing attention to it made her seem one dimensional and a token PC character.


Thank you for putting it so nicely.

When I first started talking with my friend, he never once felt he had the need to tell me he was gay. We wer just having a good talk about things. We happened to discuss the Third medic and he stated how much he loves that Medic because he understood how it felt to be different, being gay. You see, that doesn't define him. He doesn't feel the need to go around telling everybody, it doesn't define him.
My boss is gay. I didn't know until I'd already worked there for several months and finally met his boyfriend. It didn't change anything and was only mentioned that one time.

That is essentially the point I was trying to make, but it got misconstrued as an attack against her sexuality, which it absolutely wasn't. Go back and look at any article or press release written before series 10 aired and I think you'll find that nearly every one draws attention to her orientation. The fact that Moff and company seemed to think it was necessary to keep drawing attention to it made her seem one dimensional and a token PC character.


My boss is gay. I didn't know until I'd already worked there for several months and finally met his boyfriend. It didn't change anything and was only mentioned that one time.

That's what I mean about things getting misconstrued, and the knee-jerk reaction that followed. I seem to get the feeling (and this is the point I make when I referred to Star Trek Discovery) that it's the WAY it was done in the Medic is what people are annoyed about.

As I say, whatever your sexual preference, or otherwise, doesn't define a person.

Every time a straight man mentions his wife or girlfriend he is mentioning he's straight.

People say they are straight in this way all the time. All. The. Time. It's everyday to you, you just don't notice it.

If lesbian or gay people do it they get accused of letting it define their personality

Every time a straight man mentions his wife or girlfriend he is mentioning he's straight.

People say they are straight in this way all the time. All. The. Time. It's everyday to you, you just don't notice it.

If lesbian or gay people do it they get accused of letting it define their personality

I think what they're trying to say is that's it's because a gay/lesbian would be saying "I'm gay", or "I'm lesbian", instead of a gay guy saying "My boyfriend" or "My girlfriend" in the case of a lesbian. The latter is a more natural thing to say after all. As I've said, I think the problem is the WAY it is done.

Again, I will reiterate, for those who seem to think I'm homophobic, that I had no problem with the way Bill's sexuality was handled.

EM - I really don't think you're a homophobe.
I think you're a nice chap who is clearly trying to calm down a fractious forum.

I also think you don't really understand some of the issues involved here

I'm not being homophobic, so please don't call me such. I never said I had a problem with Bill or the way her sexuality was handled. Please get your facts straight.

What I am trying to do is to understand why others are having a problem. Also there seems to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions on here. I'm trying to mediate, not cause problems. Some people on here mentioned about people suddenly attacking a gay character, so I've pointed out that that it's not a new thing, attacking relationships on the show. As I have pointed out that I have never liked the "soap opera" parts of the show, but I understand the show perhaps needed that for a modern audience, to get the viewers.

I have also pointed out the contrast between Star Trek Discovery and the normalcy of a gay relationship on there, which hasn't attracted any bad comment (to my knowledge anyway) to the situation with Bill on the Medic and tried to understand why the Medic has attracted bad comments - I suggested that maybe it was because of the way it was done in the Medic.

I have made NO bad comments about anybody, nor said anything homophobic. I have stated many, many times that I have no problem with Bill or the way her sexuality was handled. I also like the way Stamet's and Paul's relationship is handled in Star Trek Discovery. How is that homophobic.

As I have also said, I have been the subject of homophobia - quite violent homophobia. That lasted for twenty years (until I got married). I know what it's like to be on the receiving end. It made me very depressed and suicidal. It led to my dropping out of school at an early age. It hurts me still today. I know what it's like.
however, knee-jerk reactions do not help. Preaching love, one must love first. For the record, one of my best friends is gay. He used to be on here regularly but got put off by the bitching going on, now he just lurks. I message him everyday over Facebook. My only two, beautiful nephews are gay. Don't ever call me homophobic.

All I know is that knee-jerk reactions will alienate (on BOTH sides). If you want respect, be respectful of others.

Like it, or not. Many people will still have problems with LGBT characters, on TV, and in real life. That's a fact. It can be due to many things - the way they are brought up, the social norms around them or whatever. LGBT relationships ARE appearing more and more on TV and movies. RTD deliberately puts such characters into what he makes - this may be confronting to some people. Some people may argue that it's not appropriate for a family show like the Medic to have such concepts in a show that started off for children. You have to realise that it's going to take time for people to be used to seeing LGBT characters on TV and movies. It can't be forced. What I do know is that violence and nasty words aren't going to change people's opinions.

I think you'll find, in the main, that people are more accepting of LGBT people, but it'll take time.

But, never call me homophobic. I have never said anything of that nature.

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------



Exactly!

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------



How I agree! Especially their innuendo laden comments "That's a big one, isn't it Jamie!".

ive never accused you directly of being homophobic, in fact that statement was directed at the members you are trying to defend and the board.

EM...... you come across as a nice guy, but you are defending some people on here that have made unpleasant statements. so you are going to get some criticism for that.

Some people are having problems because they're bigots. Sorry, but we need to stop making excuses for bigots. The longer we do so, the longer their bigotry is tolerated. And that doesn't get us anywhere closer to resolution any faster. it only prolongs the bigotry and keeps us fighting each other.



Here's the thing - there are a lot of real world injustices that need dealing with but if you feel that aggressively jumping on a poorly thought out or poorly worded message on a Doctor Who forum somehow resolves real world issues then that's a delusion. Maybe some posters are subconsciously bigoted, openly bigoted or (in a hamfisted way) trying to critique Moffat's handling of issues with his customary lack of subtlety, who knows. All I do know is that pursuing said posters with a fury born of real world injustice achieves nothing. You shut down debate and, simultaneously, entrench positions - not really the result you seek. Furthermore to imply, as in your last line, that it is merely the bigots that derail conversation is somewhat incorrect.

I'm being a devil's advocate.

But, can you see that some things are misconstrued? (ie the point that webs is trying to get across).

And, instead of saying that people are making unpleasant statements, please quote such statements (and in the context that it's being said) as that would help me understand a whole lot better.

Also I will point out that, for example, I didn't end up liking Rose as much as some people do, because of her pining after the Medic (a very heterosexual thing, you must admit, in the case of the show). I didn't like Martha in the end, for the same reason (that doesn't make me racist). Say I didn't like Bill because I thought she was one-dimensional (it doesn't make me a homophobe). Actually I loved Bill, a shame she's not sticking around, I thought it was nice to have a companion who didn't pine for the Medic. Now, if I didn't like Bill, solely because she happened to be a lesbian, that would be another story.

---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------


Here's the thing - there are a lot of real world injustices that need dealing with but if you feel that aggressively jumping on a poorly thought out or poorly worded message on a Doctor Who forum somehow resolves real world issues then that's a delusion. Maybe some posters are subconsciously bigoted, openly bigoted or (in a hamfisted way) trying to critique Moffat's handling of issues with his customary lack of subtlety, who knows. All I do know is that pursuing said posters with a fury born of real world injustice achieves nothing. You shut down debate and, simultaneously, entrench positions - not really the result you seek. Furthermore to imply, as in your last line, that it is merely the bigots that derail conversation is somewhat incorrect.

I think it may be Moffatt's handling of it, in the end.

I'm being a devil's advocate.

But, can you see that some things are misconstrued? (ie the point that webs is trying to get across).

And, instead of saying that people are making unpleasant statements, please quote such statements (and in the context that it's being said) as that would help me understand a whole lot better.

Also I will point out that, for example, I didn't end up liking Rose as much as some people do, because of her pining after the Medic (a very heterosexual thing, you must admit, in the case of the show). I didn't like Martha in the end, for the same reason (that doesn't make me racist). Say I didn't like Bill because I thought she was one-dimensional (it doesn't make me a homophobe). Actually I loved Bill, a shame she's not sticking around, I thought it was nice to have a companion who didn't pine for the Medic. Now, if I didn't like Bill, solely because she happened to be a lesbian, that would be another story.

---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------



I think it may be Moffatt's handling of it, in the end.

here you go............. from kimekaro

Best episode of the new series.

Spoiler! Hide
The downside was the return of --- again --- the ridiculous PC lesbian nonsense. This show does not need that kind of stuff in it -- it alienates new viewers (i.e. kids) and has no actual storytelling value. Other than all that nonsense? Hands down best episode since the show came back.


nasty nasty stuff.......and he know it too, otherwise he wouldn't of hidden the comment. a coward and a bigot..............please dont defend him

I think it may be Moffatt's handling of it, in the end.

That would be my interpretation too but, as I said above, people are approaching this issue with a lot of real world injustice and prejudice heaped upon them. Poorly worded posts and intemperate replies start flying and we end up here. I would suggest (1) carefully wording posts to address the point you wish to make whilst giving consideration to the people who will read it and (2) remember that aggressively posting no matter what the perceived slight is merely howling into the wind, you won't change a single thing. If however (3) you are a bigot or (4) you are one of those people who think they can change the world by shouting at it then feel free to ignore points 1 and 2

Thank you for putting it so nicely.

When I first started talking with my friend, he never once felt he had the need to tell me he was gay. We wer just having a good talk about things. We happened to discuss the Third medic and he stated how much he loves that Medic because he understood how it felt to be different, being gay. You see, that doesn't define him. He doesn't feel the need to go around telling everybody, it doesn't define him.


EM, I get that you're trying to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing here, but you don't get to comment on the LGBT experience without serious criticism. Do you have ANY idea how patronizing and condescending that last comment you made was?!?

First off, when you believe that he felt he had no need to tell you he was gay, you're clearly wrong, BECAUSE HE DID TELL YOU. So, obviously, he felt that need. Or he wouldn't have! You've convinced yourself otherwise, because you want to pretend that he's one of the "good gays", unlike the "bad gays" who you feel need to tell people.

You absolutely don't get to tell LGBT people how we should act. You can never actually understand what it's like, so stop trying to convince yourself that you can. People who are a majority don't get to tell people who are in a minority how they should react to the bigotries that they face every day. That's so damn arrogant, patronizing and condescending, even if you don't mean it to be. It's VERY, VERY uncool.

Comments like this one are extremely ignorant, if unintentionally so.

In a heteronormative society, the vast, vast majority of people DO assume that you're straight, unless you fit stereotypes. It's EXTREMELY frustrating. It denies our existence. It's invisibility. It's heterosexism at it's most everyday and banal. In some ways, it's even worse than the extreme homophobia of some, because it's so everyday and normal.

And THAT is where so much of this anger is coming from. Obnoxious straight people complaining that Bill isn't a "good gay" that doesn't "force" her sexuality on poor innocent straight bigots, and shuts her damn mouth, (like women should.)

F*CK THAT!

Some people (like your friend) choose to deal with this constant heterosexism by pretending (and even convincing themselves) it doesn't bother them and trying to ignore it. Others choose to confront it directly. We could argue about which response is more healthy. Everyone deals with adversity differently, but the problem is the adversity itself, NOT how people are coping with it. But in a world where people understood that many people are not straight and didn't assume that everyone was, there would be NO NEED for coming out. Until we live in that world, THERE IS THAT NEED. And for many of us, it's something we have to confront every single day.

You have no right to judge people for how they deal with the bigotry and heterosexism of the world around them.
And you certainly don't have the right to expect other people to deal with it in the way your one friend did.

And for the record, much of what I'm saying in this comment is exactly what they were trying to portray in some small level in Bill. When people assume she's straight, she sets the record straight right away, so that everyone can hopefully move on. Real people DON'T want to have to keep talking about this. but society keeps putting us in that position where we feel that we have to. THAT is the problem, not her reastion to it. But she has every right to set the record straight when people make false assumptions about her. In that way, her experience was very realistic. And if it's uncomfortable for some of you, then GOOD. Because maybe now you understand the tiniest fraction of the discomfort that comments like these and the assumptions of heterosexuality are causing on the Bills of our real world.

As I've said, I have always had a problem with the soap opera elements, as I have always stated. But that doesn't get the headlines, does it. Though, as I have always said too, that I understand that it brings in a wider audience, having the soap opera elements.

I'd much rather the show would just tell a good Sci-Fi story like it used to, instead of going into the love lives of the various characters and pining after the Doctor.

It's good that this thing has happened though, as it's important to have dialogue about it. And it just shows we all still have a way to go.

On another note, my wife is Asian. We still have a lot of racism against people from Asia in Australia also. So the LGBT isn't the only issue to still requite further work. In Australia's case we were nearly invaded by the Japanese in WWII so, with the older generation, that may be why some here still feel the way they do about anyone Asian (though my wife is from the Philippines). When I wrote to my Grandmother, before getting married, that I planned to marry someone from the Philippines she wrote back that why would I marry someone from Asia, as they all have AIDS and are only after money (how ignorant some people can be!).

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------



I'm not trying to cause division among people, I'm trying to unite people. I'm also trying to look for the best in people.

It's also true that people's comments may be misconstrued. I know I have a hard time putting into words what I mean (I have dyslexia) which is why I waffle on sometimes, in a way to try and express what I mean.

Do you get that I'm not homophobic? I have never said anything to indicate so. As I said, I'm trying to mediate. Does it seem that I am trying to defend someone? I am trying to get people on both sides to work things through and come to an understanding. I do see many knee-jerk reactions, and it comes with such vitriole and aggression. That's what I don't like.

As I've said, these things will take time. You can't force them. No wonder people get turned off by coming here.

I used to go to school and people would call me all sorts of names and I'd be hit. People would start fights. I'd get in trouble because of other people doing these things to me. I used to go in the art room each lunchtime - away from everybody, sit under the desk and cry my heart out. At night I'd imagine going on the roof with something around my neck and jumping off. I cut myself on my wrists, burnt myself with a lighter. I'd hate myself. I know what homophobia is like. It still haunts me today.

I never thought you were homophobic and apologise if I gave that impression :) I really sorry you went through what you did :(

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------


Here's the thing - there are a lot of real world injustices that need dealing with but if you feel that aggressively jumping on a poorly thought out or poorly worded message on a Doctor Who forum somehow resolves real world issues then that's a delusion. Maybe some posters are subconsciously bigoted, openly bigoted or (in a hamfisted way) trying to critique Moffat's handling of issues with his customary lack of subtlety, who knows. All I do know is that pursuing said posters with a fury born of real world injustice achieves nothing. You shut down debate and, simultaneously, entrench positions - not really the result you seek. Furthermore to imply, as in your last line, that it is merely the bigots that derail conversation is somewhat incorrect.

But Moff handled it fine! She only mentioned her sexuality a couple of time and she didn't even have a coming out scene. The rest was written exactly how straight characters are written with her just getting on with it.

If people have a problem with it then they clearly have a problem equal visibility for gay people on TV. Blaming Moff is just another magic shield to hide behind

here you go............. from kimekaro

Best episode of the new series.

Spoiler! Hide
The downside was the return of --- again --- the ridiculous PC lesbian nonsense. This show does not need that kind of stuff in it -- it alienates new viewers (i.e. kids) and has no actual storytelling value. Other than all that nonsense? Hands down best episode since the show came back.


nasty nasty stuff.......and he know it too, otherwise he wouldn't of hidden the comment. a coward and a bigot..............please dont defend him

I guess he's voicing a popular view. It's not the first I've heard of it. As I've said, and I'm not defending that, is that it'll take a while for people to adjust to things. However, nobody's going to change his view by becoming aggressive with him and calling him names.

It is becoming a case with a lot of TV shows to go through a checklist - got a black person, check. Got a woman, check, got a gay or lesbian character, check, got a muslim, check. Instead of the story dictating what characters to have, it seems that the former is true. That's where people go on about "PC" nonsense. While it is nice to have inclusivity, it shouldn't be because of a checklist to tick off. As I say, I think it may be Moffatt's handling of it that maybe rubbed people the wrong way. Instead of Bill replying "I'm a lesbian", could she have not said instead, "I'm looking for the right woman" - that's what most people would have said.

Again, I will reiterate, that I loved the character of Bill, and thought her sexuality was handled well, in my view. It seems that others did not think that way. I make a comparison with Star Trek Discovery because it was never "look at this, we're a gay couple in a TV show". It was just part of the everyday. That's the WAY it was handled. In the Medic, it was "look at me, I'm a lesbian in a TV show", that's the perception. A bit hamfisted.

I like the way some shows do things. But too often, oh there's an Asian character, oh, we'll have to comment on the upbringing of that character, being brought up in a restrained society, now they're in the Western society they can let lose. Or the gay guy - that's right, he'll be the flamboyant, lisping character with the high pitched voice al la Mr Humpries in Are You Being Served?. Then the black character - he'll be a basketball player, who's a bit shifty (he'll be doing a few street crimes) but is generally a loveable guy with a heart of gold (or a gangster). Stereotypes. They suck. Lazy writing, though it still goes on today!

Some people think that that's the way it's been done on the Medic. The checklist - black AND lesbian, check. Let's make sure we really let people know that. Instead of not being her defining characteristic. That's what I think is getting to people.

It's like Rose and Martha - women, check. Romance - pining after the Medic, check. Where was the male companion (no, Rory doesn't count, he was attached to Amy)? Though I'm sure if there was a male companion they'd make him gay, and pining after the Medic (cliche, stereotyping, checklist). Romance in the old days was rarely mentioned - for example Invasion of Time (out of nowhere Leela falls in love). One story. Like Jo in Green Death. Now it's, let's have whole storylines devoted to it (Girl Who Waited). I think that some of us are getting sick of romance in the show, whatever its forms.

And just for the record, a person's sexuality DOES define a person. Not completely. But it is a part of who that person is. As is their race, their gender, their personality traits, their profession, their hobbies, their location, their friends, and every other aspect of their lives. Me as a straight person would be a completely different person. Me as a white person is part of who I am. Me as a black person in our bigoted society would be a different person. You don't get to decide which aspects are more important than others for them. And you don't get to decide which aspects they're absolutely fed up with having people criticize them for. It's extremely condescending.

And again, Bill's sexuality was mentioned or made a plot point less often than with that of ANY other Mofatt's other companions (well, maybe not Nardole, but most of his characterization came out in jokes anyways.). So, if people have a problem with Bill for that, then, sorry, that's just plain bigotry. They're choosing to ignore the ways in which Clara and Amy and especially Rory flaunted their sexuality all over the screen. The truth is that they don't want to see lesbians actually talking about being lesbians on TV. Which I guess is fair enough, I guess. But stop pretending that it's the way it was handled that you're bothered by, since it was handled just fine.

I mean, seriously, did Rory have ANY other defining personality traits, other than being madly in love with Amy? (Chibnall, to his credit, tried to give Rory some character in his Power of Three episode and in the amazing illustrated P.S. video piece.) Even his multiple deaths and his final disappearance weren't treated as actual plot points for his character or the Doctor to react to; they were there for AMY to react to. Hell, the Doctor never mourns for Rory at all or even says he'll miss him. He's just upset that Amy's sad. But did anyone EVER complain that Rory was defined by his sexuality? Never.

Got a woman, check, got a gay or lesbian character, check, got a muslim, check. Instead of the story dictating what characters to have, it seems that the former is true.

In what way would a story dictate whether to have LGBT or muslim characters or not? I'm not being contentious, I'm honestly curious. It's not like there needs to be a reason for a character to wear glasses.

Nice work Sens!

I thought The Pr!soner was some of the best work LC have done in ages (and the way Elstob would kept pronouncing 'Whaaaaaaaaat?' in the second set added unintentional hilarity). The other stuff I heard in 2017 I don't remember too well - except main range #230, loved that. And #227. And the conclusion of the battle medic, maybe.

Does anyone have any standout 2017 releases I might have missed / forgotten and need to re-assess?

The best releases were the Wartime stories + the Battle Mister from what I heard and furst's were good too.

Besthead1. Have you read anything I've said?

My friend's been reading everything on here, BTW. He only mentioned being gay in passing, as he was expressing how much P3rtwee's Medic meant to him and helped him understand his own sexuality (being that P3rtwee was a bit of a different Medic, a "dandy" as he's been referred to on the show). And that was after a while of chatting with him. It was matter of fact. Never did I make an assumption on his sexuality. I made my assumption on who he is - a lovely guy who's become a close friend to me. One who I always look forward to messaging each day.

I had 20 years of homophobia. I DO know what it's like. It's something that STILL affects me today. How nasty people can be. However, I will give people the doubt and not make assumptions about them (just as you're not asking people to make an assumption about your sexuality). I'm sure that kimakaro didn't really mean any offence. I guess he's afraid to come and explain himself though, because of the way things are on here.

Please don't make assumption on my views. I only seek to understand others, Therefore I posit what may be behind people's reasonings.

As I will reiterate for the umpteenth time. I didn't mind the way Bill's sexuality was handled. I understand that other people have though - fact.

I hate all the injustice in the world. The way LGBT people are treated is abysmal. As I've stated and will state again. I went through 20 years of it. It haunts me today. I know it can be one little word "poof" that always brings the bile to my throat. Being hit in the head til I could hear. Tripped over. Pushed into things. Spat on. I remember it like yesterday. So don't say I don't understand. It made me depressed and suicidal. Don't say I don't understand. It happened when I was confused about my own sexuality too. The fact that it still goes on today makes me very sad. It causes long-lasting pain.

Things are changing. Slowly. Give it time. But you can't FORCE people to change their minds or attitudes. I DON'T make assumptions on people's sexuality BTW. I know that getting angry or aggressive at someone else will not change things. After all, the people who bullied me about my own perceived sexuality, were aggressive and that's not right in itself. Anger only begets anger. Hate begets hate.

---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------


And just for the record, a person's sexuality DOES define a person. Not completely. But it is a part of who that person is. As is their race, their gender, their personality traits, their profession, their hobbies, their location, their friends, and every other aspect of their lives. Me as a straight person would be a completely different person. Me as a white person is part of who I am. Me as a black person in our bigoted society would be a different person. You don't get to decide which aspects are more important than others for them. And you don't get to decide which aspects they're absolutely fed up with having people criticize them for. It's extremely condescending.

And again, Bill's sexuality was mentioned or made a plot point less often than with that of ANY other Mofatt's other companions (well, maybe not Nardole, but most of his characterization came out in jokes anyways.). So, if people have a problem with Bill for that, then, sorry, that's just plain bigotry. They're choosing to ignore the ways in which Clara and Amy and especially Rory flaunted their sexuality all over the screen. The truth is that they don't want to see lesbians actually talking about being lesbians on TV. Which I guess is fair enough, I guess. But stop pretending that it's the way it was handled that you're bothered by, since it was handled just fine.

I mean, seriously, did Rory have ANY other defining personality traits, other than being madly in love with Amy? (Chibnall, to his credit, tried to give Rory some character in his Power of Three episode and in the amazing illustrated P.S. video piece.) Even his multiple deaths and his final disappearance weren't treated as actual plot points for his character or the Doctor to react to; they were there for AMY to react to. Hell, the Doctor never mourns for Rory at all or even says he'll miss him. He's just upset that Amy's sad. But did anyone EVER complain that Rory was defined by his sexuality? Never.

Very good points there. But I did address those concerns. And again, not my points about Bill. I didn't have any concerns the way her sexuality was dealt with. I never ignore the way Rory and Amy flaunted their sexuality. I have long stated that I hate all that soap opera nonsense.

---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------


In what way would a story dictate whether to have LGBT or muslim characters or not? I'm not being contentious, I'm honestly curious. It's not like there needs to be a reason for a character to wear glasses.

Though, often a nerdy character is given glasses, Because nerds wear glasses, right? I wear glasses by the way, have for several years. And, I'm meaning, in a lot of modern dramas, you'll have certain characters included - look at the pairings of the black guy with the white guy as a mismatched couple (Lethal Weapon, a recent one with Dwayne Johnson and Kevin Hart). I thought Happy Death Day did a good scene with a gay guy. Throughout the movie this guy would be coming to the girl saying "Why didn't you reply to my texts?". Later she peeks in his window, just a he's about to masturbate. He gets interrupted and she sees the laptop screen is showing gay porn. You take a look at teen movies. They'll often have a black character who's either there for comedy and he's really not involved with much of the action. I've seen a lot of that type of stuff going on. Hollywood hardly ever has the balls to have a lead black guy. Oh, look, a white guy is the captain of the Discovery on Star Trek Discovery.

My point being that it seems to be a checklist that people go through, rather than just having a character be black, or gay. There are, of course exceptions.

I'm sure that kimakaro didn't really mean any offence...

Seriously?
He posted about "PC Lesbian nonsense" and put it behind a spoiler.
He knew damn well it was offensive

I guess he's voicing a popular view. It's not the first I've heard of it. As I've said, and I'm not defending that, is that it'll take a while for people to adjust to things. However, nobody's going to change his view by becoming aggressive with him and calling him names.

It is becoming a case with a lot of TV shows to go through a checklist - got a black person, check. Got a woman, check, got a gay or lesbian character, check, got a muslim, check. Instead of the story dictating what characters to have, it seems that the former is true. That's where people go on about "PC" nonsense. While it is nice to have inclusivity, it shouldn't be because of a checklist to tick off. As I say, I think it may be Moffatt's handling of it that maybe rubbed people the wrong way. Instead of Bill replying "I'm a lesbian", could she have not said instead, "I'm looking for the right woman" - that's what most people would have said.

Again, I will reiterate, that I loved the character of Bill, and thought her sexuality was handled well, in my view. It seems that others did not think that way. I make a comparison with Star Trek Discovery because it was never "look at this, we're a gay couple in a TV show". It was just part of the everyday. That's the WAY it was handled. In the Medic, it was "look at me, I'm a lesbian in a TV show", that's the perception. A bit hamfisted.

I like the way some shows do things. But too often, oh there's an Asian character, oh, we'll have to comment on the upbringing of that character, being brought up in a restrained society, now they're in the Western society they can let lose. Or the gay guy - that's right, he'll be the flamboyant, lisping character with the high pitched voice al la Mr Humpries in Are You Being Served?. Then the black character - he'll be a basketball player, who's a bit shifty (he'll be doing a few street crimes) but is generally a loveable guy with a heart of gold (or a gangster). Stereotypes. They suck. Lazy writing, though it still goes on today!

Some people think that that's the way it's been done on the Medic. The checklist - black AND lesbian, check. Let's make sure we really let people know that. Instead of not being her defining characteristic. That's what I think is getting to people.

It's like Rose and Martha - women, check. Romance - pining after the Medic, check. Where was the male companion (no, Rory doesn't count, he was attached to Amy)? Though I'm sure if there was a male companion they'd make him gay, and pining after the Medic (cliche, stereotyping, checklist). Romance in the old days was rarely mentioned - for example Invasion of Time (out of nowhere Leela falls in love). One story. Like Jo in Green Death. Now it's, let's have whole storylines devoted to it (Girl Who Waited). I think that some of us are getting sick of romance in the show, whatever its forms.

EM, could you PLEASE stop defending bigots. You seem more concerned with defending them than anything else here. All you're doing is inflaming the conversation. You'd do a lot better if you actually LISTENED to the arguments that LGBT people are making instead of constantly trying to refute and disagree with us. You claim to want to settle things down here, but you are actually inflaming things by defending their bigotry. Frankly, it's even more infuriating than the bigots themselves. Because you're trying to justify their HATRED.

These are bullsh!t excuses from straight white men who don't want to see anyone on TV other than straight white men.
Bigots do't say "I don't want to see damn d&kes and n&ggers on television, becuase they know it makes them sound bad. So, they make excuses like these so they won't sound bad.
I'm not sure if you actually believe the lies they're telling. But I don't understand why you're defending them. THEY ARE WRONG. THEY ARE BIGOTED.

This isn't "PC nonsense". It's about making an active decision to NOT only show straight white men. You know who has a real quota on television? STRAIGHT WHITE MEN. They are maybe 30% of the population, yet, 60+% of the characters on television, and nearly ALL of the stars on television. If you count straight white women, they're 80+% of the characters on television, and nearly always the starring roles. And when anyone tries to move more towards representing the REAL world, they get this same BULLSH!T that you're spouting here. And it's bigotry. It's not just "nice" to have exclusivity. It's ESSENTIAL TO GOOD STORYTELLING TO SHOW THE WORLD AS IT ACTUALLY IS. Not the fantasy white world of TV since TV started. THAT is what has been the real "agenda" for all these decades.

People aren't putting an Asian into a story to fill a quota. They're putting an Asian into a story to show different points of view. Because maybe some people want to watch shows with someone other than white men all the time? Is that really so freaking hard for you to understand? Because you can tell more interesting stories when everyone on the screen doesn't look the same and isn't from the same background. Because, as much as you want to pretend we live in a Star Trek future fantasy world where everyone is the same, the truth is that growing up a minority in the western world gives you different experiences and different perspectives. THAT MAKES FOR GOOD STORYTELLING. And it bothers you when you are occasionally confronted with that basic reality that the rest of us have to live with every single day. Are we supped to be sorry that you're mildly perturbed to be confronted with that reality on rare occasions on television? We live with it daily. Deal with it.

It's NEVER because of any "checklist". There's no damn thing. That's just the lie that bigots like to tell us so they don't sound like bigots. But they do.

And when you defend them, using their bigoted language, YOU SOUND LIKE A BIGOT.
Are you?
If not, then STOP USING BIGOTED LANGUAGE.

And stop freaking trying to tell lesbians how they're allowed to talk. It's freaking condescending as hell! Some lesbians DO say "I'm a lesbian."
If you have a problem with that, then that's YOUR problem, not hers. And if you have a problem with that, then perhaps you're not as un-homophobic as you think you are.
We all harbor awful prejudices that are an affect of growing up ion a bigoted society. We get rid of them by confronting them, not by denying them.

But you're also trying to compare how a lesbian in today's society in 2018 reacts with how a gay couple who live in a world WITHOUT homophobia would act. It's ludicrous. They don't have to say they're gay on Star Trek, because NO ONE ASSUMES THAT THEY ARE STRAIGHT. THAT s the wonderful fantasy world that they live in. It's not OURS. But if you ask ANY LGBT person in 2018, they will tell you how infuriating it is that everyone assumes they're straight. But no, you haven't even bothered to read the messages in this thread, and want to just keep bitching about the poor bigots we're not understanding. Every lesbian I know who watched Who absolutely LOVES the way that Bill has handled these situations and most have handled similar situations in similar ways. And to be blunt, they're completely unconcerned with your opinions about how they should be handling themselves. As they should be.

EM, could you PLEASE stop defending bigots. You seem more concerned with defending them than anything else here. All you're doing is inflaming the conversation. You'd do a lot better if you actually LISTENED to the arguments that LGBT people are making instead of constantly trying to refute and disagree with us. You claim to want to settle things down here, but you are actually inflaming things by defending their bigotry. Frankly, it's even more infuriating than the bigots themselves. Because you're trying to justify their HATRED.

These are bullsh!t excuses from straight white men who don't want to see anyone on TV other than straight white men.
Bigots do't say "I don't want to see damn d&kes and n&ggers on television, becuase they know it makes them sound bad. So, they make excuses like these so they won't sound bad.
I'm not sure if you actually believe the lies they're telling. But I don't understand why you're defending them. THEY ARE WRONG. THEY ARE BIGOTED.

This isn't "PC nonsense". It's about making an active decision to NOT only show straight white men. You know who has a real quota on television? STRAIGHT WHITE MEN. They are maybe 30% of the population, yet, 60+% of the characters on television, and nearly ALL of the stars on television. If you count straight white women, they're 80+% of the characters on television, and nearly always the starring roles. And when anyone tries to move more towards representing the REAL world, they get this same BULLSH!T that you're spouting here. And it's bigotry. It's not just "nice" to have exclusivity. It's ESSENTIAL TO GOOD STORYTELLING TO SHOW THE WORLD AS IT ACTUALLY IS. Not the fantasy white world of TV since TV started. THAT is what has been the real "agenda" for all these decades.

People aren't putting an Asian into a story to fill a quota. They're putting an Asian into a story to show different points of view. Because maybe some people want to watch shows with someone other than white men all the time? Is that really so freaking hard for you to understand? Because you can tell more interesting stories when everyone on the screen doesn't look the same and isn't from the same background. Because, as much as you want to pretend we live in a Star Trek future fantasy world where everyone is the same, the truth is that growing up a minority in the western world gives you different experiences and different perspectives. THAT MAKES FOR GOOD STORYTELLING. And it bothers you when you are occasionally confronted with that basic reality that the rest of us have to live with every single day. Are we supped to be sorry that you're mildly perturbed to be confronted with that reality on rare occasions on television? We live with it daily. Deal with it.

It's NEVER because of any "checklist". There's no damn thing. That's just the lie that bigots like to tell us so they don't sound like bigots. But they do.

And when you defend them, using their bigoted language, YOU SOUND LIKE A BIGOT.
Are you?
If not, then STOP USING BIGOTED LANGUAGE.

And stop freaking trying to tell lesbians how they're allowed to talk. It's freaking condescending as hell! Some lesbians DO say "I'm a lesbian."
If you have a problem with that, then that's YOUR problem, not hers. And if you have a problem with that, then perhaps you're not as un-homophobic as you think you are.
We all harbor awful prejudices that are an affect of growing up ion a bigoted society. We get rid of them by confronting them, not by denying them.

But you're also trying to compare how a lesbian in today's society in 2018 reacts with how a gay couple who live in a world WITHOUT homophobia would act. It's ludicrous. They don't have to say they're gay on Star Trek, because NO ONE ASSUMES THAT THEY ARE STRAIGHT. THAT s the wonderful fantasy world that they live in. It's not OURS. But if you ask ANY LGBT person in 2018, they will tell you how infuriating it is that everyone assumes they're straight. But no, you haven't even bothered to read the messages in this thread, and want to just keep bitching about the poor bigots we're not understanding. Every lesbian I know who watched Who absolutely LOVES the way that Bill has handled these situations and most have handled similar situations in similar ways. And to be blunt, they're completely unconcerned with your opinions about how they should be handling themselves. As they should be.

I get your emotional but I think you're a bit harsh on EM. He's always come over to me as real genuine guy who has the best intentions. He just doesn't 100% understand the issues all LGBT people face.

Can I just say that EM is not the personification of all evil in this world and all the CAPS LOCK in the world doesn't really help.

Holy cow, this is ridiculous.
1) I am not a bigot just because I did not like content from an episode and someone else did.
2) I put my comment behind a spoiler tag because it is COMMON COURTESY to not spoil new content, which is what that content was at the time.
3) Given said content was release WELL over a year ago, please consider that by the end of the series, more episodes featuring said character had been released that fleshed her out enough to give me more perspective on her.

However, if all my coming back is gonna do is act as a catalyst for you guys attacking EM - who is just trying to get you to back off of me - then I suggest that you just start private messaging me with your thoughts and feelings on the issue and we can deal with it in a far more constructive manner than covering this thread with all the hate, there is no point to it.

I get your emotional but I think you're a bit harsh on EM. He's always come over to me as real genuine guy who has the best intentions. He just doesn't 100% understand the issues all LGBT people face.

I agree. But when you don't understand something, you don't try to preach at others as to how they should act, which is what he's doing here.

And yes, maybe I have been harsh. But frankly, when you defend bigots, using their bigoted language and justifications, that's going to happen. He should listen to what people are saying, instead of only listening to the bigots and trying to explain to us why they're not bigots. Especially after people have posted Kimikaro's "PC lesbian nonsense" line repeatedly. This isn't a man who doesn't like how lesbians are portrayed on the show. This is a bigot who finds any portrayal of lesbians to be "nonsense".

EM, the reason I'm finding your arguments infuriating here is because you think you're doing the right thing here and trying to bring all sides together. But, sorry, bigots don't deserve to be explained away. They don't deserve to be justified. And they absolutely don't deserve to have otherwise decent people like you who claim to not agree with them, going on to make their arguments for them. All it does is give them justification to continue spouting their bigotry. And it gets everyone else all riled up. If you don't believe their arguments, then don't make those arguments for them.

I mean, just look. He posted a few comments pages ago. We posted our refutations of his crap. It would have been over. And hopefully, he'd have gone away. But now, EM has been keeping the argument going here with his defense of a bigot and bigoted views over and over and over. That doesn't help him or this group.

Some of us are just so sick of bigots playing the victim and getting away with it, and duping otherwise good people like EM into defending and fighting for them. It's so disgustingly manipulative.

But Moff handled it fine! She only mentioned her sexuality a couple of time and she didn't even have a coming out scene. The rest was written exactly how straight characters are written with her just getting on with it.

If people have a problem with it then they clearly have a problem equal visibility for gay people on TV. Blaming Moff is just another magic shield to hide behind

Not everybody agrees with the statement I have bolded. By immediately rejecting that notion and jumping to the conclusion that such a discussion is motivated by your second, pejorative reason does no favours to any rational discussion.

1) I am not a bigot just because I did not like content from an episode and someone else did.
2) I put my comment behind a spoiler tag because it is COMMON COURTESY to not spoil new content, which is what that content was at the time.
3) Given said content was release WELL over a year ago, please consider that by the end of the series, more episodes featuring said character had been released that fleshed her out enough to give me more perspective on her.

You're being disingenuous. That's not why we're calling you a bigot.
We're calling you a bigot because your post was blatantly bigoted and used bigoted language.
What part of "PC lesbian nonsense" do you think isn't offensive?


(Also. Bill being a lesbian wasn't a spoiler and it was less than year ago)

Holy cow, this is ridiculous.
1) I am not a bigot just because I did not like content from an episode and someone else did.
2) I put my comment behind a spoiler tag because it is COMMON COURTESY to not spoil new content, which is what that content was at the time.
3) Given said content was release WELL over a year ago, please consider that by the end of the series, more episodes featuring said character had been released that fleshed her out enough to give me more perspective on her.

However, if all my coming back is gonna do is act as a catalyst for you guys attacking EM - who is just trying to get you to back off of me - then I suggest that you just start private messaging me with your thoughts and feelings on the issue and we can deal with it in a far more constructive manner than covering this thread with all the hate, there is no point to it.

1) No, you're a bigot because you consider lesbians on television "PC lesbian nonsense".
2) And for all the other reasons dozens of other people have said.
3) You don't get to have the last word in flamewars. Especially after throwing more flames onto the fire.

1) No, you're a bigot because you consider lesbians on television "PC lesbian nonsense".
2) And for all the other reasons dozens of other people have said.
3) You don't get to have the last word in flamewars. Especially after throwing more flames onto the fire.

Again, please PM your concerns. I can see how you would take what I said out of context (as was clearly done). I was not "hating against the LGBT lifestyle", I was commenting on my dislike of the use of it in the early Bill stories. I don't know "all the other reasons" things purpose, because it doesn't actually matter what other people have somehow come up with to justify their poorly aimed anger --- the reason I put episode spoilers behind spoilers is because they are, in fact, spoilers.

Also, the "flamewars" thing; yeah this needs to stop. It wasn't a flamewar, and the fact that it is being discussed as such now shows that it is just arguing for the sake of arguing. That isn't the purpose of this thread. Again, if you would like to share your opinion, there are more constructive ways to do so.

Not everybody agrees with the statement I have bolded. By immediately rejecting that notion and jumping to the conclusion that such a discussion is motivated by your second, pejorative reason does no favours to any rational discussion.

The issue is if they have a problem with how Bill was handled and not with how the heterosexual companions have been handled (who really haven't been treated any differently by the writers) then that certainly implies that homophobia of some kind is involved.

It may not be the blatant "I'm going to go out and queerbash people" homophobia - but it's certainly the kind that treats lesbian and gay people differently to their heterosexual counterparts and complains when they appear on TV

On a lighter note, just got an email saying the new river is out now

Exterminate Me is one of the nicest guys on the web I know. Just saying....

I'm staying out of this conversation but I have been noticing that with this topic and the new 13, here and on facebook, that if your opinion doesn't match other peoples, you are treated like dirt and pounded with negativity. It's like your not allowed to have an opinion unless it's their opinion. Unfortunately, it's also similar to talking politics.....best to avoid them if possible...it sours the positive energy I usually see here.

Personally, I love this place and enjoy you guys. I learn a lot here about the medic in different ways I would have never thought of, which is refreshing.
All of you, please don't stop what you are doing. It's greatly appreciated and enjoyed.

Exterminate Me is one of the nicest guys on the web I know. Just saying....


This statement is 100% true. He has been refreshingly great to talk with!

The issue is if they have a problem with how Bill was handled and not with how the heterosexual companions have been handled (who really haven't been treated any differently by the writers) then that certainly implies that homophobia of some kind is involved.



For what it's worth I have had a problem with how Moffat handled heterosexual companions but no problem at all about Bill. But I'm not dismissive of the possibility that somebody might see things the other way around without being motivated by bigotry.

The issue is if they have a problem with how Bill was handled and not with how the heterosexual companions have been handled (who really haven't been treated any differently by the writers) then that certainly implies that homophobia of some kind is involved.

It may not be the blatant "I'm going to go out and queerbash people" homophobia - but it's certainly the kind that treats lesbian and gay people differently to their heterosexual counterparts

This statement makes sense, and helps me to understand the view better. I can, again, see how my comment would be taken in such a way, however that was not my intent. I guess I will amend my statement to something more along the lines of "I don't think that romance has any real reason to be in a show about someone who travels around in a police box saving the world from pepperpots and robot men, regardless of their sexual orientation". So I apologize for the wordage used.

One thing I will say is I'm sick of stereotypes in the media Besthead. I'm sick of seeing the straight white male in the lead. Do you get that? I'm also sick of when other people are included in the story it's to make some big deal. I liked the way Danny Glover's character was handled in Lethal Weapon. He was a detective, with a family and portrayed in a positive light (when, all too often a black man isn't). I'm sick of a black guy included in a movie, but he's there as a token ie he's not a main character, will just be a friend of the white male lead. Do you see where I'm going? See the magnificent movie "Get Out" - my movie of the year last year. A very good movie if you haven't checked it out.

When I saw Michelle Yeoh as the Captain of a Starship in Star Trek Discovery I thought - great, they've finally got the balls to change things up. Only to kill off the character and have the, you guessed it, white male lead Captain of the Discovery. Props though for having Michael Burnham be black and female, and a lead! I love the character of Bill (a lesbian, AND black!). We should see more of it.

PC nonsense isn't my term, only bringing up what I've heard, so don't attack me on it.

Did you read that my wife is Asian? Or did you gloss over that. They're people like you or me, believe it or not. Not well enough represented on TV in my opinion. I am talking about STEREOTYPES. Do you understand what stereotypes are? That was what I was complaining about. It's lazy storytelling. It's like how nerds are portrayed (I'm a bit of one myself). They're often seen using an inhaler, sporting big glasses. Skinny white kids who aren't very handsome. I hate the portrayal. I was viewed as that, and gay. So I got double the whammy.

Do you understand where I'm going with that. I want change. But I don't want stereotypes. Stereotypes are lazy labeling, and perpetuate myths. Like the effeminate gay, the black gangster, Italian mobster.

That's what I like about the gay relationship on Star Trek Discovery. It isn't a stereotype and it's portrayed as a natural thing. That's what I want to see. Things that are just natural. It's no big deal that they just happen to be gay. Their relationship is portrayed as loving and now somewhat sad (with a death). I'd like to see a lot of changes, but they don't have to be with someone with a trumpet out ahead saying "look, we have a black person in the lead". I love it that some directors on the Medic chose women or a black person to fill roles in 70's Medic.

I grew up on Sesame Street. You know what I loved about it? It had hispanics, it had blacks, it had people with disabilities. And they all lived together as part of a community. They didn't feel the need to say "look at the type of people here", they were filling it with the kind of people you find in your neighbourhood. That's what I loved!

I will also reiterate it, in case you keep missing it. That I don't assume anything of anyone. I only judge on what sort of person you are, gay or straight it doesn't matter.

As I say, it'll take time for the world to change. Do you understand my message here? I'm not defending anyone here. It's just that you seem to have misunderstood some things I've said, especially about stereotypes.

All I'm just calling is for a bit of peace. A bit of reason. I agree with a lot of what's been said.

Holy cow, this is ridiculous.
1) I am not a bigot just because I did not like content from an episode and someone else did.
2) I put my comment behind a spoiler tag because it is COMMON COURTESY to not spoil new content, which is what that content was at the time.
3) Given said content was release WELL over a year ago, please consider that by the end of the series, more episodes featuring said character had been released that fleshed her out enough to give me more perspective on her.

However, if all my coming back is gonna do is act as a catalyst for you guys attacking EM - who is just trying to get you to back off of me - then I suggest that you just start private messaging me with your thoughts and feelings on the issue and we can deal with it in a far more constructive manner than covering this thread with all the hate, there is no point to it.


typical behavior ............complaining about hate after coming up with nasty comments.

why shouldn't kids be exposed to LGBT people from a very early age?

gay people are a fact of normal life, kids should see the world as it truly is.

also you didnt have spoilers about the episode, you just had a moan about a gay character, thats why you hid the statement

gay people are a fact of normal life, kids should see the world as it truly is.

Exactly what I've been trying to say.

---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

I'll leave you with this, one of my favourite songs, from the early 80's. Listen carefully to the lyrics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA65lg1HWt4

I wish there was a separate arguing about Time Ladies & lesbians thread.

Actually, I seem to experience the opposite of Besthead. Everybody who meets me assumes I'm gay (which is why I copped so many years of abuse).

AND BREATH.........
Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one!
Evolution of the human condition takes time, it does not happen overnight. Things are getting better in the western world, but are still far from the utopian future many would wish we were living in.
My own family has whites, blacks, Asians, straights and gay within it..... me? I am white, male and straight, however I am and have been exposed to all the rest for all of my 45 years here on this plane of existence.
The older generations could not get their heads around the non white and non straight aspects, and as much as I DO miss those elders, they have gone the way of the dinosaurs and are no longer with us.

The younger generations are more accepting of these things. I have several nieces and nephews of multiple ethnic back grounds and different sexual tastes.
Its true that not everybody likes it, its true they face opposition and indeed hatred from some quarters, however at least they are living now, when its is getting more tolerant than say only 50 years ago.

It wont be perfect in our life time, as much as we want it to be, it may not be perfect in my nieces and nephews lifetimes, but the reality is, WE ARE GETTING THERE.... even if it is slowly.

Evolution is happening, and the dinosaurs will die out.... its just that many of us wont live to see it unless time travel becomes a reality.

The one thing I do know is that shouting people down and such, simply does NOT work, all it does is create resistance and indeed more dislike and hatred, no matter what the issue being discussed. You wont change anyone's mind nor their opinion by doing that ,no matter how passionate you feel about it!

Just try to be the best person you can be, love who you want to love and change YOUR world around you into the world you want it to be. Who cares what the dinosaurs think, you will never change their minds, just be happy in yourself with the life you create for you and the ones you love.

Life after all, is too damn short, just make sure you live yours in a way that makes it worthwhile, and be thankful that we are living in a culture where actually being able to marry who the hell you want to marry is now a legal right, unlike a few scant years ago!

Not everybody agrees with the statement I have bolded. By immediately rejecting that notion and jumping to the conclusion that such a discussion is motivated by your second, pejorative reason does no favours to any rational discussion.

In my experience only straight people think he handled it badly. Anyone who uses language like "PC nonsense" is automatically exposing their prejudice.

So fucking what.

Y'all talking about this because of something that dude said months ago. Even I agree it was a quite shitty remark but it's fucking over. Even Bill's era is gone, along with it's writer whose scruffy revisionless writing is the source of most of this comotion.

Deciding to build all this crap over the situation NOW is just embarassing.

Deciding to build all this crap over the situation NOW is just embarassing.

This!

Exactly!
Glad you got what I was getting at, EM. I personally love Rose as a character, faults and all. But for awhile, there were a lot of folks on the Internet who considered it their life's mission to completely shit on her as a character for one reason or another, to the point that when Billie Piper was announced to be in the 50th, there were some I saw who're like "Can't we celebrate this milestone without that blonde bitch forcing herself into the Medic's life again?!". And that was before we found out whom she was actually playing in the 50th! It eventually got so bad, that I had to write an impassioned defense of the character on my dusty old blog, which seems to have gone over well with some folks. Granted, I wrote it before the Conflict Medic was retconned in. But in spite of that, I still think a lot of my arguments hold water. If anyone's interested in reading it, I can PM them the link rather than rehash a lot of my old points here.

I will also say that what finally pushed me to write said defense was this one guy from Channel Awesome (the Nostalgia Critic's folks, for those who follow internet personalities) named Welshy doing 2 Medic-related videos that caught my eye. One of them was his "Top 10 Favorite Tenth Medic Moments", where before he gets to said top 10, he goes off on a tirade against RTD and how he considered him a shit writer and that Steven Moffat was awesome and could do no wrong. And yet, when he gets to the top 10, he included moments written by RTD himself on the list! So why say he's shit then you clearly include moments written by him in your top 10?! Either swallow your pride and admit that even people you consider shit writers can actually write a gem that clicks with you, or don't include anything written by said shit writer on your top 10 in the first place!

However, the video that really pushed me to write my entry was him doing a vid entitled "Top 10 Rose Tyler Moments", but it was a clickbait title in every sense. Basically, he did it as his way to completely rag on Rose as a character, upwards of including the lovely phrase "Mary Sue" in his arguments as to why she's horrible (sound familiar?). Not only that, but he deliberately took moments that meant to show she isn't that perfect out of context to the point of justifying what a horrible character she is in his mind. He even ended the video saying that if there were those out there who still liked Rose as a character in spite of the things he cited against her, then they were just as bad as she is. It was a horrible video to watch...

Meanwhile, across the bay is a new audiodrama featuring Gatiss & Shearsmith based on a certain rather special 1971 folk-horror movie that had Ainley and Padbury in it...

Meanwhile, across the bay is a new audiodrama featuring Gatiss & Shearsmith based on a certain rather special 1971 folk-horror movie that had Ainley and Padbury in it...

Yup heard it.... its rather good, and dare I say it, actually better than the movie that it is based on, and I say that as classic British horror movie fan!

F.Y.I. The two latest Bloke and company have also popped up over at the Bay.

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------


Meanwhile, across the bay is a new audiodrama featuring Gatiss & Shearsmith based on a certain rather special 1971 folk-horror movie that had Ainley and Padbury in it...It also had Roberta Tovey, the girl who played Susan in the two Medic movies with Cushing.

Glad you got what I was getting at, EM. I personally love Rose as a character, faults and all. But for awhile, there were a lot of folks on the Internet who considered it their life's miyadayada

This type of comment makes me hopeful that this community still exists. It is 100% possible and likely that peoples opinions can change and that throwing an opinion they had over a year ago at them might be harmful, not only to the community, but to the purpose of the argument itself.

This type of comment makes me hopeful that this community still exists. It is 100% possible and likely that peoples opinions can change and that throwing an opinion they had over a year ago at them might be harmful, not only to the community, but to the purpose of the argument itself.
Yeah, probably. But I brought it up because I've been seeing echoes of comments being used against a lot of female characters in different fandoms as of late, with the "Mary Sue" one being the most popular one in use... It's kinda got me really tired of people shitting on any female character in a franchise who's assertive and independent to some degree.

It's been quite a contentious couple of days here. We can all do with a reminder of what this place is all about. So dig in to some baked confectioneries and put a song in your hearts
<!----Medic 4 Series 7-A
https://www.sendspace.com/file/r8vkjc
https://www.sendspace.com/file/6a8x0u

Melody Pond Series 3
https://www.sendspace.com/file/gmk0bx
https://www.sendspace.com/file/b00txb
https://www.sendspace.com/file/bla7o7---->

Added a look behind the curtain.

It's been quite a contentious couple of days here. We can all do with a reminder of what this place is all about. So dig in to some baked confectioneries and put a song in your hearts

What a lovely treat. Thanks!

Indeed thank you Webs01, its a nice way to start the day.

Webs01, you're just so...FANTASTIC. Please keep sharing the treats.

Thank you Webs

I also extend my thanks to Webs. That's one of the things I didn't purchase from LC when I decided to treat myself. However, I do have other stuff I did get which I may share sometime.

Nice one Webs! Cheers.

Thanks. Never fear. New books of SH and DW now loaded at 'the other place'. I won't be sharing here again.

Sad. I don't have access to the other place. I've very much enjoyed your excellent taste in books!

I don't even know what other place is this

thanks webs

Sad. I don't have access to the other place. I've very much enjoyed your excellent taste in books!Membership is highly exclusive. One must endure a number of deadly tests of initiation in order to earn the privilege of membership. Many have tried...few have succeeded. Only the bravest and most resourceful survive.

Webs01 you should never reveal the secrets of the "Other Place".

Be afraid, you are now on the "List". Be very afraid.

Webs01 you should never reveal the secrets of the "Other Place".

Be afraid, you are now on the "List". Be very afraid. Oh, bugger! I'm in for it now.

Good work websy!


Yup heard it.... its rather good, and dare I say it, actually better than the movie that it is based on, and I say that as classic British horror movie fan!

Just listened to it there - I agree! I didn't think the post-production was quite as polished as a typical LC job, but the performances were great and the last scene gave the conclusion more impact than the movie's ending had

Found song covers for you completists out there.
<!-----https://www.sendspace.com/file/znc8q4--->

Thanks webs

The latest little journey
RWQ
<https://www.sendspace.com/file/qz4s2x>

The latest little journey
RWQ

Thanks!

Journey on, versatile. Thanks.

It just ain't a certain game unless you really want quills.
<https://dailyuploads.net/kwxseoy4umoc>

Christopher Thomson told me he's done an LC audio, not as a certain Medic, but his foot is in the door. The convo came up over on YouTube when I asked about his sequel to Villian of the Planet.
His exact response
Hopefully very soon! We've got a great cast, and we're awaiting their availability. But the wait will be worth it! It's sounding great so far. Just awaiting a few actors now :) I'd love to work for Large Conclusions on Second Medic stories - it's one of the reasons why I produced these. However I have done a Large Conclusions audio, yet to be announced, so keep a look out for that! Not Second Medic related, but it was a great part to play :)

I think I saw that he and a bunch of other impressionists including the famous fourth medic one on Twitter were doing something. Considering it still hasn't been announced I was wondering if I'd imagined it.

For those that are interested the latest Whose Roound podcast by Tobby Haddock on the LC site is an interview with the departing show runner

ohi guys,someone's got the medic and the cricket men ebook in epub or pdf yet?
thanks

refer to a post i made about quills :P

It just ain't a certain game unless you really want quills.

I can only get this to download a DMG file which wants to install an app on my computer.
How do I download the actual book file

Unselect "Download Addon" and press the blue download button not the red one.

Unselect "Download Addon" and press the blue download button not the red one.


Thanks - I wasn't getting any of that in my browser. I had to switch to chrome to get it