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The Zipper
05-07-2017, 04:27 PM
Iwasaki is scoring the Mahouka movie to the scene:

https://twitter.com/taque68/status/861203968256466945

Strange of him considering how much he dislikes that sort of thing, but this further confirms my suspicions that this soundtrack will be much more than just a random collection of cues and different genres like his typical work.

nextday
05-07-2017, 04:32 PM
The weird thing is that the game hasn't even been released... and yet they did a Twitter contest for the soundtrack. I would have entered myself, but Oshima didn't mention this game by name in her blog (so I didn't know about it). The CD they released only has 10 tracks so maybe it's just a promo soundtrack of sorts? In any case, I'll be keeping an eye on it from now on. Hopefully someone will rip the BGM once it's actually released.

Edit: Some interesting news - This year is the premiere of Oshima's concerto. Remember how in 2015, she recorded a Viola Sonata in Paris? At that time, violist Pierre Lenert said on Facebook that it would be released on CD after the recording of her concerto. Hopefully that stays true.

Oh, and next year Yugo Kanno is apparently premiering a Symphony No.2.

nextday
05-10-2017, 12:48 PM
Orchestration Bo�wy
The Astarte Orchestra of London, conducted by Nick Ingman

Music by Tomoyasu Hotei
Arranged, Orchestrated & Piano by Robin Misty Smith



Sample: B�E�L�I�E�V�E (http://picosong.com/MfPA/) http://i.imgur.com/v9WfOyB.gif

Download: https://mega.nz/#!ZJUngQyB!IcyDGoh-RlHoEIgHthlO7QKAKZV3HM7P7kzD9vP0o0c

Symphonic arrangement album from the popular Japanese rock band Bo�wy. Produced in London and recorded at Abbey Road.

Vinphonic
05-10-2017, 08:26 PM
Merci :)



I'm also extremely surprised and pleased that "Game Music Orchestras" are not the only rising trend in Japan, there's also many professional orchestras on the rise dedicated entirely to the whole "soundtrack" world: Film Score Philharmonic Orchestra (https://www.filmscorephil.com/) (recently they performed a John Williams concert for his 85th birthday)



The Film Score Philharmonic was founded by another "new player" in the anime scoring world: Nobuko Toda (https://www.nobukotoda.com/bio). She studied at Berklee and recorded and orchestrated many scores in LA but now lives in Japan and has composed for anime already (but all pretty much lowkey). She has a new anime and game project in the works that will release this year.

And the sheer number of YOUNG orchestral ensembles performing for all kinds of projects beggars belief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj-g1GqZ-BA

hater
05-13-2017, 02:58 AM
Final Fantasy Zodiac Age OST comes out in July as a bluray, containing the new versions as well as new tracks, accompanied by gameplay footage to watch.it clearly states that the mp3s can be easily extracted.i hope the its the complete OST, and the whole 5 hours were given the orchestral treatment.new versions are great so far.

edit: Tracklisting confirms complete OST plus at least 1 extra track.92 new versions, 7 unchanged, propably already orchestral.the score is fantastic,but has some heavy horner-rip-offs.

nextday
05-13-2017, 04:47 AM
CALENDAR SUITE
The Warsaw Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra, conducted by Akira Senju



Sample: Sunrise (http://picosong.com/MX2b/) http://i.imgur.com/v9WfOyB.gif

Download: https://mega.nz/#!kB1A3LKI!NE-dSamrXKEeE-LynDrr08qFQrK0KEtQSMLL8rCbzMs

Original chamber score recorded by Akira Senju in November 2014. Each of the 12 tracks represent a different month of the year.

Vinphonic
05-13-2017, 11:55 AM
Legacy of Japan
Takayuki Hattori
Symphonic Selections



PW: ClarissimumChorum (https://anon.click/jotoz24)


Takayuki Hattori is a brilliant symphonic mind and master tunesmith. From a certain angle a true Golden Age composer who has composed some of the most memorable TV themes ever and has many fantastic symphonic works under his belt. Like another certain composer I will highlight soon, his best work was written in his early years. Not to say he still can't knock it out of the park but I much adore what he composed for TV Drama and Anime in the 90s. From symphonic works full of grade A Hollywood moments and classical choral works to exhilerating period pieces, it's just all fantastic.

I should mention that some of his early works I don't pocess and to not rip cds all the time, the credit goes to nextday for Kura, Longest Tour and Restaurant. IQ and Nihon Retto were shared by Tango/Herr Salat. The rest is by myself, including Codebreaker in FLAC, which I believe was never shared on this forum (or elsewhere).


Hattori's early TV work gave us quite a symphonic journey, with "Kura" as one of his strongest works to date, elevated in sound by the Moscow Philharmonic and straight out from the Golden Age of cinema with many fantastic choral moments.

His mark on Final Fantasy is also noticable, the iconic themes transformed into an epic choral work. While not reaching the same heights as Hamaguchi/Uematsu, it nonetheless is a worthwhile voyage by another brilliant orchestral voice.

The Longest Tour is a fantastic debut with the same spirit and force as Oshima's early cinema period. Eventhough it is just a studio recording, that warm and sparkling orchestral sound, full of life and splendour, always makes the scores of early Hattori, Asakawa and Oshima a joy to revisit.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms is no stranger to fantastic symphonic music, recently blessed by Yoko Kanno. Takayuki Hattori does not disappoint and adds to the series legacy. But don't be surprised if you find striking similarities with another work of his which I will mention shortly ;)

Restaurant de Roi is just marvelous, a journey into a world of imperial splendour and class, close to a ballet and always an indescribable joy to listen to.

I.Q Intelligent Cube is a score I would put close to Outcast and other western symphonic game works. The score is pretty much classic fantasy with energetic melodies and divine choral moments. It was recently given the concert treatment and I hope we will get to hear it soon.

On to his work for early TV anime (which I adore). Oh boy... I LOVE Slayers (it reprises his work for RotTK). It has a great theme and hours of brilliant classic fantasy and the best of 20th century cartoons. I dearly wish they would be available in FLAC.

Martian Successor Nadesico continues this brilliance, this time in the SciFi realm with some period synths and much classical flair. The movie score is more on the "short" side but still features great moments, in particular the reprise of the Main Theme, which is among my most favorite orchestral beat tracks ever.

If you thought Keijo was the first to combine butts with orchestra, then you're WRONG. Some anime show from the 90s already did that, and with an even better orchestral score I might add. "Battle Athletes" completes Hattori's exorbitant trilogy, with a continuation of classic SciFi and Fantasy moments and yet another fantastic theme. This one especially gets really close to classic Tanaka territory.

Secrets of Mana: Put your thoughts to music is like Final Fantasy another orchestral arrange album by Hattori, while not reaching quite the same sublime moments of his Final Fantasy album, much joy and symphonic fantasy can be found here, with some great guitar and choral moments.


Now we are leaving his 90s period and face quite a different Hattori. In ways more grown up but in other ways not delivering the same kind of music that made me fell in love with his work. His taste for rythmic Hollywood percussion batteries and synth I don't share in particular. But he can still work some magic.

Tears to Tiara is a return to form and an excellent fantasy score with the return of fantastic choral moments straight out of Golden Age cinema, making it one of my favorite fantasy scores in the anime business.

Nihon Retto is a nature documentary in best tradition of British symphonic works written for that genre. Some moments detract a little from the orchestral voyage but nonetheless a great return to form with some absolutely sublime moments.


Karei-naru Ichizoku and Codebreaker show Hattori at his most mature and eloquent, beautiful symphonic works of art and a demonstration what Hattori's work can sound like if he lets his drum batteries rest. Karei-naru Ichizoku in particular can sit right alongside Senju's Red Garden or Rampo with some of the best choral moments I've heared in a Jdrama. Codebreaker is the best of his recent works by a mile, going full noir and evoking Herrmann's works. It's full of brilliant woodwind textures and atonal goodness, almost reaching into the concert world. Still, the drums and electronics are the only things keeping it from greatness.

Gundam: The Origin is a good example of his recent style that does not appeal to me that much. Ironically my least favorite piece from this score is the Main Theme, but only because Hattori can do so much better. Thankfully there's still plenty of fantastic TV ScFi moments in this one. Some of this stuff was absolutely sublime to hear in 2016. And the full orchestral version of the Main Theme won me over in the end. And the Jazz song is quite delicious too. Still, a composer of his caliber can do better and thankfully the recent trailers for the next Origin Arc seem far more promising.

At last we have two of his greatest themes he ever wrote. A shame the rest of the respective scores did not live up to the utter brilliance of the Main Themes. But they are so great I could listen to them 20 times easily and not miss the full score at all.


With all that said, feel free to dive in!

tangotreats
05-13-2017, 02:28 PM
VInphonic, thank you as always! I haven't had a chance to go through it all, but at least half of Code Breaker is missing, along with the best track on the album - the second track of disc 2, a delicious mini-symphonic poem for trumpet and orchestra... :(

Vinphonic
05-13-2017, 04:26 PM
Oh I should have specified that Codebreaker is a film score compilation of all orchestral tracks and not the usual rip (which of course I can also provide if requested), so track 2 of the second album is actually track 26 on my orchestral selection. So don't worry, you will not miss the best stuff ;)


@nextday: Thank you very much for this album of Senju I did not have in my collection. With this beautiful day it made for quite the relaxing afternoon :)


Also some trivia, in case you didn't catch it, the video I posted above was supervised by Senju, recorded at Senju Studios, on Senju Campus :D

tangotreats
05-13-2017, 06:00 PM
Track 27. There it is. My apologies, I stand corrected. :)

streichorchester
05-14-2017, 01:03 AM
I've not heard Kura before, so thanks for that. I like anything with interesting harmonies, and this score is full of them. It almost sounds like an epic Hollywood score at times, maybe something from the Silver Age such as scores by Elmer Bernstein (Ten Commandments), John Scott (Anthony and Cleopatra), or even Maurice Jarre (Jesus of Nazareth).

ladatree
05-14-2017, 04:26 AM
Martian Successor Nadesico continues this brilliance, this time in the SciFi realm with some period synths and much classical flair. The movie score is more on the "short" side but still features great moments, in particular the reprise of the Main Theme, which is among my most favorite orchestral beat tracks ever.

Code:Breaker is the best of his recent works by a mile, going full noir and evoking Herrmann's works. It's full of brilliant woodwind textures and atonal goodness, almost reaching into the concert world. Still, the drums and electronics are the only things keeping it from greatness.

Gundam: The Origin is a good example of his recent style that does not appeal to me that much. Ironically my least favorite piece from this score is the Main Theme, but only because Hattori can do so much better.

But I like "modern" Hattori...
I think the main theme to The Origin is catchy as hell and and the fourth soundtrack has some of my favourites. I also like his stuff from Code:Breaker, Death Note and 「HERO」2015 but I Guess I like orchestra with other stuff in the background. (Though I do like GATE)[COLOR="Silver"]

Vinphonic
05-14-2017, 10:39 AM
I completely understand. When it comes to Japanese composers their choice of style is "mostly" just a matter of preference. I don't enjoy the drums and synth that much but Hattori makes it at least always bearable because theres good stuff going on underneath. In truth I also "like" Origin's Main Theme if you approach it from the angle of making the modern Hollywood style with actual brains and meat, then Hattori of course succeeds with flying colors. But his early work hands down beat this current stuff for me. But like I said Codebreaker is marvelous (and its not pure orchestra either) and its from his current period, so he definetely never had a fall from grace as far as I'm concerned and its mostly a matter of taste. And his early anime scores are not exactly "only" orchestra either (I didn't mention orchestral beat tracks for nothing). In Battle Athletes (and Nadesico) you have sax, drumkits, e-guitars and plenty of synth, yet I love it to pieces.

ladatree
05-14-2017, 12:15 PM
I wasn't trying to get at you or anything but I didn't know about the others but I'll have to suss them out. I Guess I was trying to say it as someone who prefers that stuff.

Also Sword Oratoria had an awesome version of the Argonaut song and the latest episode's stuff is pretty cool. it Sounds so... I dunno grand, it's cool.

tangotreats
05-14-2017, 01:36 PM
Modern Hattori seems lazy, to me. He's proven that he can drop effortlessly back into his old style (the main theme from Sanada Maru) but increasingly it's so directionless and noisy. Even the substantially orchestral parts seem like they're just in a holding - it's a blast of dissonance on brass and then some meandering notes that seem to somehow avoid becoming a melody, then we either drop into slamming percussion and repetitive ostinatos, or we go full-out electronica hell (Gundam Origin - Surprise Attack Starts!)

Like what the hell is 0:25 to 0:33 in "RTX-65 Guntank" - that is the dictionary definition of a composer wasting time.

And then you get "Gundam Origin - To a new World" - gorgeously orchestrated, thematic, completely idiomatic of the composer... Or "Code Breaker - Tatakau Monotachi" - one of Hattori's finest themes of his career, presented in an anthem style with gradually thickening orchestration that's full of power and glory, but would sound repetitive and boring with a lesser orchestrator at the helm.

And then you get Grand Family, specifically the main theme - it's 10 minutes long, it's performed by a world class symphony orchestra and chorus... And at 7:23 in comes a bloody crappy synthesized moody percussion track. He's got every single resource under the sun that would make any composer weak at the knees. He's for twenty years (at the time) of experience and reputation as one of Japan's finest orchestrators. He's a master tunesmith and his style is one of the most recognisable in the business. So what happened? At what point did he think "Right, let's bring in some cool sounding electronic drums here!"

Hattori Takayuki - THE most frustrating composer in Japan. The composer with the widest gap between what he's done and what he's capable of. When he scores anime, he still manages to command a good-size orchestra... so why does he consistently abuse it so badly?

nextday
05-14-2017, 03:31 PM
Hattori is capable of great things, but he's unfortunately been sucked into the black hole that is modern day film scoring. It's all downhill from there.



Also Sword Oratoria had an awesome version of the Argonaut song and the latest episode's stuff is pretty cool. it Sounds so... I dunno grand, it's cool.
Soundtrack samples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVQCWT39OeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K81O-FUDbUU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdOK8GwaV4k

The Zipper
05-14-2017, 06:07 PM
Hattori Takayuki - THE most frustrating composer in Japan. The composer with the widest gap between what he's done and what he's capable of.?I dunno Tango, I feel like you say this about almost every composer touched on in this thread. :P

Anyway, Senju and Hattori! I haven't listened to much of Hattori but I've always adored his main theme for Nadesico. And I've spoken more than enough about my appreciation for non-action Senju so no more needs to be said. Surprising that he has so many brands with him, i.e. "Senju Labs".

streichorchester
05-14-2017, 06:10 PM
Is Hattori the Bruce Broughton of anime? Let's examine the evidence:

1. Has early success with great melodies and tight orchestration
2. Writes an amazing, fully-orchestral score to a game in the 90s that very few have played
3. Cannot keep up with the top players in the industry and thus falls into relative obscurity

nextday
05-14-2017, 07:49 PM
3. Cannot keep up with the top players in the industry and thus falls into relative obscurity
Last year he scored the a taiga drama and a Gundam anime. Definitely hasn't faded into obscurity.

tangotreats
05-14-2017, 09:00 PM
I dunno Tango, I feel like you say this about almost every composer touched on in this thread. :P

Well, I'm glad to see my pessimism is still the stuff of legends. ;)

I know I tend to grouse a lot... but a lot of the time I'm complaining about (what I consider to be) crappy composers writing crappy music. That's frustrating but understandable. Hattori... is a fantastic composer writing crappy music. That's REALLY frustrating. He's a really good composer, he knows his way around an orchestra, he commands big music budgets, and he's still working. So why isn't he writing the kind of music that make film score people foam at the mouth?

He can... but he doesn't.

streichorchester
05-14-2017, 09:09 PM
I stand corrected. I'd still rather this guy get the spotlight than Sawano or Sagisu, but what can you do?

Edit: Every time Hattori is brought up I get "Winter Stars" stuck in my head for the next week, so thanks guys!

FrDougal9000
05-15-2017, 12:25 AM
Figured I might as ask for advice on this one: can you recommend some orchestral game/movie soundtracks on Spotify I can listen to while playing games? Specifically, while playing open-world games like The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, which I started playing today.

I loved the previous game for its writing, slightly spotty gameplay aside, and I'm enjoying what I'm playing so far. Unfortunately, the game's soundtrack pulled me out of things pretty quickly. When it wasn't being a wall of orchestral noise, it would overdo the reverse-cymbal at the most inappropriate of times and constantly. So, I've decided to turn off the music and listen to a custom playlist of orchestral/piano music. My experience with orchestral music outside of a few areas is pretty small, and most of what I do know isn't available on Spotify. Amongst the several songs from other places, here are the complete orchestral soundtracks on the playlist so far:

-Les Miserables, Hayato Matsuo (his only soundtrack on Spotify)
-Battle Royale, Masamichi Amano (figured I'd actually listen to some of Amano's own work, instead of listening to his gorgeous arrangements for others)
-Outcast, Lennie Moore, Sean Hickey & William Stromberg (never played it, but someone mentioned as replacement music for open world games, and I was curious)
-Civilization VI, Geoff Knorr (aside from Beyond Earth, the only soundtrack from the series on Spotify)

I'd like to hear some suggestions for orchestral/piano soundtracks available on Spotify, so that I can vary the music I listen to while playing through The Witcher 3. Anything will be very much appreciated! Thanks, and have a good one.

-FrDougal9000

hater
05-15-2017, 05:11 AM
Figured I might as ask for advice on this one: can you recommend some orchestral game/movie soundtracks on Spotify I can listen to while playing games? Specifically, while playing open-world games like The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, which I started playing today.

I loved the previous game for its writing, slightly spotty gameplay aside, and I'm enjoying what I'm playing so far. Unfortunately, the game's soundtrack pulled me out of things pretty quickly. When it wasn't being a wall of orchestral noise, it would overdo the reverse-cymbal at the most inappropriate of times and constantly. So, I've decided to turn off the music and listen to a custom playlist of orchestral/piano music. My experience with orchestral music outside of a few areas is pretty small, and most of what I do know isn't available on Spotify. Amongst the several songs from other places, here are the complete orchestral soundtracks on the playlist so far:

-Les Miserables, Hayato Matsuo (his only soundtrack on Spotify)
-Battle Royale, Masamichi Amano (figured I'd actually listen to some of Amano's own work, instead of listening to his gorgeous arrangements for others)
-Outcast, Lennie Moore, Sean Hickey & William Stromberg (never played it, but someone mentioned as replacement music for open world games, and I was curious)
-Civilization VI, Geoff Knorr (aside from Beyond Earth, the only soundtrack from the series on Spotify)

I'd like to hear some suggestions for orchestral/piano soundtracks available on Spotify, so that I can vary the music I listen to while playing through The Witcher 3. Anything will be very much appreciated! Thanks, and have a good one.

-FrDougal9000

blood and wine has much better music

Vinphonic
05-15-2017, 04:08 PM
Witcher 3 [Custom Soundtrack]

Music composed by Yuri Poteyenko / Moscow Symphony Orchestra
Story Missions and BaW composed by Lee Ji-Soo / Prague Philarmonic Orchestra



Download (https://mega.nz/#!i0IiDYpB!t1HOXfCVE53cqPopdQ0XnOD88bgl6Qfr6pERFFLrERk)

Sample: City soundscape / Horse Ride (http://picosong.com/MSwq)


For Witcher 3 I always recommend Age of Pirates by Yuri Poteyenko and Zera:Imperan Intrigue. This is my "playlist" if you will I use while playing. I always try to imagine what kind of music fits the game best as an official score I would like to write. This happens only if the game is great in all areas except the music (which is usually the case). If the game allows it I can set the media hotkeys to my PS4 touchpad buttons and quickly switch between the tracks based on situation.

Its really frustrating for me that often the artistic merit of a game is visibible in every area EXCEPT the music... take Witcher 3's composer, who thinks himself more a "sound designer" than composer and of course is showered with awards and praise everywhere. I do not share for an instant his view on music. In my eyes music should fit the visuals perfectly while delivering themes and melodies to characters and locations, making them memorable, and on top of it all, resonate with an audience in the most soul-touching manner possible, something to leave in their minds and hearts and not deliver "epic music" (yes he proclaims himself an epic music composer as well, the full package) that will be forgotten in two weeks after the soundtrack release.

Just imagine a painter who doesn't know how to wield a brush properly and how to use colors in what way to get the most out of an audience, except when dozens of assistants hold the brush for him and chose the colors (not referencing Tim Simonec's bad persona here :p). Putting that guy in charge to paint your chapel would be insanely stupid in a sane world where Michelangelo is free to offer his services next door (not referencing the guy who did Silverado or anything)... but technology and arrogance made it possible that the amateur painters rule the streets now and if it comes to cool sounds or something to be remembered, you know which philosophy they will get behind.

And this is not limited to western games, mind you, for example Dark Souls 3 has great artistic direction but for some odd reason horrible music that contradict the visuals. And this is coming from someone that thinks Bloodborne is totally fine and just needed some fitting music for the levels... Anyway, the melancholic and dying world evoked a certain atmosphere that needs to be expressed with far more operatic and somber music (in my opinion) in the most soul resonating manner possible but sadly that is just a fantasy of mine: Here's what I thought would fit the game like a glove and would establish an operatic structure with Kilar providing musical identity and theme to "fire", and Christopher Young the same with "darkness".



Dark Souls III [Custom Soundtrack]

Music composed by Christopher Young, Wojciech Kilar, Don Davis, Masamichi Amano & Yasunori Mitsuda



Download (https://mega.nz/#!z9RT1TIC!nXxoaqwUJcbD8TGK2ySuCbOkAaYUl0ISAzofIzpecX0)
Sample: Firelink Shrine (Fire) / Firelink Shrine (Darkness) (http://picosong.com/MSsd)




And a few other of my custom scores:


War Thunder (https://mega.nz/#!jl4zwCiA!yGUVyOx6uPX3oX9nRlV-GYHdH-lY1PlKc77QpGBSURw) (Shiro Hamaguchi, Michael Giacchino Tim Simonec, Christopher L. Stone, James Horner)

Sample: Sea Coast Battle (http://picosong.com/MSRY/)


Bloodborne: Additional Soundtrack (https://mega.nz/#!bhAxVLab!11PihGIUYq389i_674qhBdOfWRM7OFpnZgMJ2f4oiEI) (Keiji Inai, Bob & Barn, Akito Matsuda, Justin Bell, Masami Ueda)

Sample: Central Yarnahm (http://picosong.com/MSRV)

Overwatch (https://mega.nz/#!r5wFGDbJ!40j1fyfsXAaIrLDYTTEio6PEbcmpf8sf687aVuc0k98) (Because of certain contracts I will not mention where this is from or who wrote it, just know its the kind of music Overwatch should have had)

Sample: Training Mode (http://picosong.com/MSYA) / King's Row (http://picosong.com/MSYu)

tangotreats
05-15-2017, 04:20 PM
War Thunder[/URL] (Shiro Hamaguchi, Michael Giacchino Tim Simonec, Christopher L. Stone, James Horner)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztl2SamxOKU

nextday
05-16-2017, 09:48 AM
HAL is offering a paid, high-quality stream for the July performance of the Kirby Orchestra Concert: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv297872783

I'll have to do that if they don't announce an album.

Vinphonic
05-16-2017, 06:50 PM
Speaking of concerts I hope some of you downloaded the Evangelion concert with Miyashiro from youtube because its down now :(

EDIT:

Tom Holkenberg: Why don't movies have memorable themes anymore? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjYn1PhKqVQ)

Some insight whose really to blame for crap music. Not to say his "stem" game is not the number one reason LA players consider suicide.

I spit out my coffee the moment he suggests that he scored Brimstone with anything close to Herrmann and Morricone, or any french and italian cinema for that matter (but at least he has some humility). And this guy is the biggest player in town right now...


After I checked some of his "masterclasses" I quickly had to erase it from memory and pull up MICHIRU's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZKP7QUijSE) video and Sato's Train Suite to calm down.

Also happy to report that MICHIRU has sucessfully entered the business, scored new games, live-action films and even a GHIBLI project. Now that is encouraging news.

She currently has scored music for a new anime OVA project similar to Izetta (I guess she is typecast for Fantasy/SciFi yuri stuff now): http://escha-chron.jp/

Oh and of course Iwasaki has taken interest in her work (perhabs a collaboration on the horizon?) :D

Sirusjr
05-16-2017, 07:51 PM
Glad I'm not the only one here who can't stand the music in The Witcher 3. I end up either turning it off completely or putting on my own music. Thankfully now that I have been playing Persona 5, most of the music is nicely done and fits better with everything so I rarely have to mute it.

I regularly play with Chad Cannon's score to Paper Lanterns as well as various John Williams scores including Star Wars at times. James Horner some scores work nicely including his Magnificent Seven score. Beltrami's Gods of Egypt works nicely as well

Vinphonic
05-16-2017, 09:06 PM
Persona 5 is mostly great for what it is. At the very least it fits and never once annoyed me ingame. Quite the contrary, actually. I could never skip the opening because it was too tastefully done. I could say the same about Catherine, a game I also very much enjoyed with the same kind of amazing style and atmosphere (same director and composer after all). And you know, I always correlate the quality of music in any genre to the composer's symphonic knowledge, and you know, every piece of "pop" music I like fits that criteria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIDo4dLlITc&index=41&list=PLA93F8D7D32FD8F47

The Zipper
05-16-2017, 10:05 PM
Oh and of course Iwasaki has taken interest in her work (perhabs a collaboration on the horizon?) :DHaha, I doubt it. Iwasaki is very much a lone wolf, breathing down the neck of his violinists to make sure they don't mess up a single note, and ordering Mario Klemmens left and right on how to do his job as a conductor.

Iwasaki does seem to have an eye for talent though, like with YoI's composer. Michiru certainly is talented, but I've never seen Iwasaki say anything about her?

Two Michiru's, two Kanno's, and three Iwasaki's. So many composers...

Vinphonic
05-16-2017, 10:18 PM
Wow, now I know why he has Herrmann as his idol :D


Oh and I never realized Mike did a perfect summary of the current state of affairs (on the western front) on a level of magnitude I'm simply to inept to match, and its free for all to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA2V7W5t_ls#t=21m39s

The Zipper
05-17-2017, 03:51 AM
Wow, now I know why he has Herrmann as his idol :DMy favorite Iwasaki moment in his blog was when he equated the frowning of percussion in orchestral music to be the equivalent of racist white supremacists neglecting "lower" cultures like those of Africans and Indians. I think that's the closest I've ever ever seen any composer come to Herrmann's infamous ridiculous "Train of Death".

tangotreats
05-17-2017, 11:36 AM
Are you serious? Wow, he's a nutcase. As geniuses usually are.

The Zipper
05-17-2017, 01:28 PM
Are you serious?Google Translate should give the general gist of it: https://ameblo.jp/soundtrack-maker/entry-10190788452.html


And evolution of percussion instruments are evolved in the direction that it is evolving,
Basically, there is a challenge to Europe's controlled territory (especially Africa).
In that sense, the development of Western classical music is discrimination,
(Royal aristocracy) supported by privilege consciousness.
It is written in the Orchestral Act as sure as it is
"To rely too much on percussion instruments is an amateur's doing"

Is there any other composer out there right now in Japan who is as open about their work as Iwasaki? Quite frankly I'd love to see more blogs like this where the composer actually speaks instead of just advertising their own music.

streichorchester
05-17-2017, 10:50 PM
MICHIRU's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZKP7QUijSE) video
How could anyone not want to be a composer after watching that?

The Zipper
05-19-2017, 02:33 PM
Honoring the title of this thread, what would you guys say are some of the best "big orchestral action" pieces out there in Japan? Some of my picks:

http://picosong.com/MK43/
http://picosong.com/MK44/
http://picosong.com/MK4G/

ladatree
05-19-2017, 02:37 PM
What do ya think of the "other" Imagine guys like Akifumi Tada (Especially unrated if you ask me), Yasunori Iwasaki, Takayuki Negishi, Kazuhiko Sawaguchi, Rei Ishizuka, Shinji Miyazaki and stuff?

Vinphonic
05-20-2017, 11:34 AM
I did a list some time ago about orchestral action but figured it would be better to post the whole composer package ;) I guess now I have an opportunity to post it.

Here's my favorite "Big Orchestral Action" music and composers from Japan, with some thought put into ranking (and one or two recent additions).



1. Yoko Kanno: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MB6f) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MB6g) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MB6G)

2. Masamichi Amano: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBJ4) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBJt)/ Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBJH)

3. Kohei Tanaka: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MB6i) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBbn) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBbF)

4. Michiru Oshima: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBS5) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBSi) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MB6k)

5. Joe Hisaishi: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBJU) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBJM) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBSs)

6. Kosuke Yamashita: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBEg) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBQi) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBE3)

7. Hayato Matsuo: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBQk) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBQh) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBQr)

8. Toshihiko Sahashi: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBbc) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBbb) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBbz)

9. Nobuo Uematsu: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBZu) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBZ2) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBZx/)

10. Taku Iwasaki: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBEJ) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBEz) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBEp)

11. Yoshihisa Hirano: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBE7) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MB8n) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MB8P)

12. Kow Otani: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBKa) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBKi) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBK7)

13. Naoki Sato: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MB86) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MB8X) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MB8K)

14. Yoshihiro Ike: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBAZ) / Excerpt 2 (http://picosong.com/MBAu) / Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBAx)

15. MONACA: Keiichi Okabe (http://picosong.com/MZcv) / Keigo Hoashi (http://picosong.com/MZ9j) / Ryuichi Takada (http://picosong.com/MZf6)


Honorable mentions: Tomoyuki Asakawa (http://picosong.com/MBhH) / Katsuro Taijima (http://picosong.com/MBhf) / Kan Sawada (http://picosong.com/MBhj) / Toshiyuki Watanabe (http://picosong.com/MBNs) / Kaoru Wada (http://picosong.com/MBhZ) / Shinji Miyazaki (http://picosong.com/MBBj) / Shiro Hamaguchi (http://picosong.com/MBZe) / Takayuki Hattori (http://picosong.com/MBhL) / Tsuneyoshi Saito (http://picosong.com/MBNE) / Hiroshi Takaki (http://picosong.com/MBhC) / Natsumi Kameoka (http://picosong.com/MB8W) / Yasunori Mitsuda (http://picosong.com/MZfD) / Yugo Kanno (http://picosong.com/MBA7) / Hitoshi Sakimoto (http://picosong.com/MZ2P) / Kenji Kawai (http://picosong.com/MZfp)

Oh and of course Mark Mancina (http://picosong.com/MBNU/) as a welcome surprise





@ladatree: All are by and large underrated AND underused. Akifumi Tada and Yasunori Iwasaki have the potential to do great things. I think its safe to say Shinji Miyazaki has been with some of us since childhood so its natural to be excited about his work and his recent two television series of pokemon have some phenomenal stuff in them. And I bet my horse on Rei Ishizuka one day being the next big funky king to succeed Sahashi.

nextday
05-20-2017, 02:38 PM
@ladatree: All are by and large underrated AND underused. Akifumi Tada and Yasunori Iwasaki have the potential to do great things. I think its safe to say Shinji Miyazaki has been with some of us since childhood so its natural to be excited about his work and his recent two television series of pokemon have some phenomenal stuff in them. And I bet my horse on Rei Ishizuka one day being the next big funky king to succeed Sahashi.
Don't forget Kazuhiko Sawaguchi. In recent years, he's released some nice synth demos at Comiket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJbdozrqpcY

Vinphonic
05-20-2017, 07:50 PM
So how about another newcomer in the business that is quickly on the step to stardom: Harumi Fuuki
(http://www.harumifuuki.com)
Here we have yet another young beautiful Japanese Lady and gifted classical trained composer and orchestrator that made a name for herself quickly on the "serious" side of the Japanese scoring world: The NHK subworld.

Recently she announced that she has finally reached her lifelong dream, a dream I think any classical trained composer over there and on our side can agree is probably the best gig in the world right now... an NHK Taiga Drama.

The most amazing thing is she specifically wants to inherit James Horner.

"My very first experience with music was James Horner's Titanic when I was still a young schoolgirl, after that I fell deeply in love with his music and film music in general. From that point on I decided I want to be a composer and make music like that one day. I even skipped school all the time to watch old Hollywood movies and listen to the music. My favorite film scores besides Horner are Gone with the Wind, Laurence of Arabia, Bolero of Love and Sorrow and Kurosawa's Ran. I hope I can make people feel the same way as I felt as I was crying after hearing such works. I'm very happy right now and love everyday of my life because I get to fulfill my dream so soon. In college I seriously considered how I could achieve my dream the fastest way and quickly Yoko Kanno came to my attention, so I took after her advise and started doing CM music and one company replied back that I should join them because they liked my music and one thing naturally lead to another, I was encouraged to do competitions on television and now I can score films. It's really amazing. But I would also really like to try animation and games as well one day.

But scoring a Taiga Drama is one of my big dreams and finally I got to realize it! I feel like everyone who listens to those soundtacks truely loves music and BGM gets often overlooked. I hope I can deliver an adventure and share my joy and excitement for you all to experience. If a person has a destiny in life, mine is to love music. When I began to work my happy tears did not stop. I want to create something that is worthy of the heavy responsibilty I feel on my shoulders.

But the director and producer said: Please lean on our shoulders, just make music like you always do.

I would like to release this heavy pressure by doing good work."

- Harumi Fuuki



She's beyond excited to write, orchestrate and travel for this new project that will release in 2018, and I can only guess by travel she means an overseas recording... and you know what happens when an overenthusiastic young Japanese composer gets to travel the world :D

And what a Horner fangirl, it shows: http://picosong.com/Mxn4

This year she has already scored the equivalent of a Hollywood historic epic: Sekigahara (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTqGWAbHmh0). She announced on twitter that she recorded the score with a full choir and when you look at how the Japanese advertise their "epic" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Yd6ABs0LM) movies, you just know it won't be some drumbanging.


And here's a question a typical Japanese film director asks from a composer: "For this scene I imagine Bach's Violin Concerto in A minor (the second movement). Can you do something to complement that?"

nextday
05-20-2017, 08:39 PM
It's Harumi Fuuki, not Fumiko (I think your translator messed up).

I listened to some samples of her work when NHK made the announcement and one thing I noticed was a lack of brass. I hope she utilizes the full orchestra for this taiga.

kaonashi1991
05-20-2017, 09:25 PM
2. Masamichi Amano Excerpt 3 (http://picosong.com/MBJH)

This track was composed by Shiro Sagisu and only co-orchestrated by Masamichi Amano.

tangotreats
05-20-2017, 10:37 PM
On paper, yes - but by people familiar with the compositional styles of Amano and Sagisu, it is usually accepted that Amano deserves at the very least the lion's share of credit.

Vinphonic
05-21-2017, 10:48 AM
The idea is Sagisu but the action is Amano if that makes sense. (It's also from my Amano collection so that explains no tags crediting Sagisu).

@nextday: And here I thought some pieces of software are getting really advanced these days ;) So I take it Fuuki is not an artist name but her real one then. Apologies.
I think the very nature of the dramas she scored music for didn't exactly call out for fanfares. And even then she snuck in all kinds of Hornerisms, from the irish flute to the usage of choir. For the film "The Emperor in August" theres some americanaesque trumpet passages evoking Horner but again, that film was a quiet political drama. Segikahara is balls to the walls historic epic action. I think we can get a better image of the composer and what to expect from Taiga after hearing that.


EDIT: So now that even Iwashiro wrote an operatic piece for Kado (which is winning me over bit by bit), and Inai delivering more bombastic action for the spinoff than for the main series, how long until he does it too?

Unfortunately Virgin Soul has been very lukewarm so far, but that is not the composers fault, but the last 30 seconds of the recent episode are hopefully a change of pace, I'm also hoping for a certain character to appear and the "mini-opera" to turn my opinion around, but I guess the really good stuff appears next season.

EDIT 2: Thankfully Oshima doesn't disappoint. The recent LWA episode might be my favorite episode music-wise. I hope a soundtrack gets announced soon... oh, well, turns out it was announced! Out Jul, 19 :D

Vinphonic
05-21-2017, 11:44 PM
Legacy of Japan
Taro Iwashiro
Symphonic Selection



PW: NeverSmile (https://anon.click/ziqoj66)

Taro Iwashiro is surely an oddball. On one hand a brilliant symphonic poet and the Japanese answer to John Barry, but on the other hand the most monotone drum machine on the planet.

The first twelve albums are the reason I hold him in such high regard, despite his fall from grace. I consider them to be neoclassical albums and Barry-esque filmscores disguised as TV and Movie soundtracks, with much Japanese flavor. Some of his early works, represented in TACT were even never shared online and are even out of print now, which is a pain since they are not on iTunes. I hope every album from the first TACT makes it online somehow. Anyway, here he was an artist first, and a soundtrack composer second, which makes this turnaround to todays monotone by-the-numbers drum pattern machine all the more baffling.

The last four albums represent his change in style (for the worst in my opinion) albeit being his best effort from this era.

Even more baffling is the fact that moments of greatness appear in even his most monotone albums such as his Theme to Red Cliff, the Opening of Gargantia or Heaven and Earth from Arslan. And even some stylistic choices like delightful Steel Drum and folk dances in Gargantia or using ancient lyrics for Arslan I can totally get behind.

Thankfully things are heading into the right direction again. Arslan is by and large much better than previous efforts, and the respective symphonic album is a giant leap into old greatness. I consider Kado to be another work that represents this positive change, far more so than the others. Yes, some monotone tracks appear but by and large it’s a much more lyrical score with operatic moments and from the opening to the ending, it’s very fitting for a high concept SciFi show. It's the best thing he wrote in ages.

I anticipate another symphonic suite for Kado and I’m hoping for more signs of the return of the artist to appear.


Nonethless, let your synapses dance.

hater
05-22-2017, 12:37 PM
brian tylers the mummy seems to go in a much more traditional direction judging from the ahments theme from the concert.

nextday
05-22-2017, 04:35 PM
Toho is releasing the complete soundtrack for Little Witch Academia on July 19th. Oshima went all around the world to record the music for this series - Boston, Paris, Tokyo and Moscow.

Sure to be a great addition to the collection!

nextday
05-23-2017, 12:45 PM
Aerial Legends Original Soundtrack
Music by Michiru Oshima



Ripped, etc. by nextday.

Sample: Main Theme (http://picosong.com/MH4P/) http://i.imgur.com/v9WfOyB.gif

Download: https://mega.nz/#!YY9TSRqL!kl0AGws_Rh8UBEb6iE5dyGaiyfzvMz7CGFbVLa9zCDw

Lossless rip from the game's audio files. This is the complete orchestral score. The only change I added is a fade-out on track 4 (a looping battle theme).

There is speculation that this score was recorded with the Budapest Symphony Orchestra. If not, it's probably another Paris recording.

tangotreats
05-23-2017, 03:48 PM
Oh, my God, thank you! :D

It doesn't sound like Paris to me - the Paris acoustic is drier and the French strings are very, very distinctive... I think this is the mysterious Budapest recording. :D

nextday
05-23-2017, 03:53 PM
Yeah, it doesn't sound like her usual Paris orchestra to me. The only other places she's recorded in the last year is Boston (LWA), Budapest (unnamed game) and some smaller things in Tokyo (but this one obviously isn't domestic).

Edit: Also, I just noticed that I accidentally included track 4 twice. Reuploading again.

tangotreats
05-23-2017, 03:59 PM
I cannot understand why nobody in Tokyo ever says "Hey, hang on, we're pretty much the only place where proper orchestral scores are written nowadays, but every domestic recording we make sounds terrible and is recorded in a tin can. Why don't we build some nice studio and partner with an orchestra and offer domestic orchestral recording packages like they do in [insert country name here]!"

nextday
05-23-2017, 04:34 PM
I recall reading about how, back in the 80s or 90s, Toho had it's own sound stage and orchestra. It was a large, fully equipped studio. They even had a big screen on one of the walls where they would project images, so the music could be scored to picture. I also remember a tidbit about how over a decade ago the NHK had a studio in Shibuya, used exclusively for recording soundtracks, which was designed by people who worked at Abbey Road.

Both of those studios were closed, though, and now Japan no longer has any so-called scoring stages. I wonder why.

Vinphonic
05-23-2017, 04:59 PM
The hero saves the day :D

Oshima has my complete trust and is always a joy to listen to, and for a 30 minute score for a mobile app, this is some simply marvelous stuff, especially Alisia's Theme.


I also cannot believe nobody voices concerns or tries to improve things. Especially if you consider how much Japanese composer adore the old Hollywood masters on twitter and want to get the "sound of the movies". The Japanese Composer and Arranger Association must have had meetings to discuss fundings for new facilities. Today the city of Tokyo is slowly being acknowledged worldwide as the new Mecca of MUSIC, a place where seemingly every new media project these days gets an orchestral score or at least features a chamber-sized ensemble together with stage concerts, Jazz evening club parties, and occasionaly symphony concerts. There just simply have to be some improvements made soon, and even if that only results in a temporary solution to book more concert halls with established or upcoming "BGM" orchestras like with Valkyria: Azure Revolution. On that note where did Tanaka record Sakura Wars: The Motion Picture or End of Eternity? If that was not a concert hall then there have to be some adequate facilities around.

nextday
05-23-2017, 05:21 PM
On that note where did Tanaka record Sakura Wars: The Motion Picture or End of Eternity? If that was not a concert hall then there have to be some adequate facilities around.
End of Eternity: Showa Women's University Hitomi Memorial Hall, Tokyo
Sakura Wars The Movie: Sumida Triphony Hall, Tokyo

Both recorded in concert halls. Nice ears.

The Zipper
05-23-2017, 05:30 PM
I think the lack of facilities is because most of the big-name composers working with large international orchestras have already forged strong enough connections with those orchestras, much like a band leader always relies on his same group of musicians. For example, I doubt Senju would ever want to abandon Warsaw. And the rest like Yoko Kanno and Michiru Oshima and Masaru Yokoyama enjoy traveling worldwide. Not the most practical use of studio funds, but anime as a whole has not exactly been a profitable business outside of those insane BD sales. You also have people like Iwasaki, whose music requires familiarity with before playing, since he's so obsessive about how every instrument and arrangement sounds, so he often goes back to the same studio and same players he has worked with for years (just listening to Agito makes it obvious- he disliked a lot of the Warsaw cues so he had his own domestic studio players re-record the exact same cues despite the smaller ensemble). So far, it seems like the established composers in Japan don't really mind the lack of large domestic recording facilities. Maybe in the future if a handful of newcomers who enjoy using large orchestras but don't like traveling speak up, they can get a few more facilities being built.

J A W S
05-23-2017, 08:13 PM
What are you guys talking about - in this dead thread?

Vinphonic
05-23-2017, 08:56 PM
There is speculation that this score was recorded with the Budapest Symphony Orchestra.


It doesn't sound like Paris to me - the Paris acoustic is drier and the French strings are very, very distinctive... I think this is the mysterious Budapest recording. :D

So how about Aerial Legends being recorded in Moscow instead :D



Sample (http://picosong.com/MHvu) / Full Album (https://mega.nz/#!b4YhQL5S!ay5DHUAEK3stq3AE7uNJCl8HjTOY7ef6lHfvgYCAerc)

tangotreats
05-23-2017, 09:15 PM
Yeah, I don't know why we bother - 723 pages of discussions, nearly ten years of posts, friendships, original research, opinion, collaborations to bring rare music to a wider audience... What a waste of time this dead thread is... ;)

streichorchester
05-24-2017, 04:52 AM
5. Joe Hisaishi: Excerpt 1 (http://picosong.com/MBJU)


I've not heard Hisaishi's Yamato before. What got into Hisaishi at 4:35? Suddenly Shostakovich's Symphony No. 7. That's really neat to hear.

Also, since not everything has to be crazy action. I recently discovered this track which is actually really nice and has a strong theme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGmRYcoYltw

The key to a good theme, besides being memorable, is it makes you want to hear more of it. That key change to G minor at 0:32 is killer. I wish there was more of it, but I checked, and there ain't. Oh well...


Gundam: The Origin is a good example of his recent style that does not appeal to me that much. Ironically my least favorite piece from this score is the Main Theme, but only because Hattori can do so much better. Thankfully there's still plenty of fantastic TV ScFi moments in this one. Some of this stuff was absolutely sublime to hear in 2016. And the full orchestral version of the Main Theme won me over in the end. And the Jazz song is quite delicious too. Still, a composer of his caliber can do better and thankfully the recent trailers for the next Origin Arc seem far more promising.

I listened to the Gundam Origin score and the track "To a New World" is amazing. The theme is perfect, the structure, the instrumentation, all really well done. It's themes like that I think composers struggle to create the most. It lends itself to so many variations.

It's also an emotional roller coaster. It starts off in D minor very mysteriously with the theme's A part in a solo clarinet. At 0:30 we hear the B part in the strings and now it's sad and mournful. At 0:55 we get the A theme again in the solo horn. The B part in the strings returns at 1:19. At 1:41 the A theme is presented in two instrumentations: first a hymn-like rendition in the high strings and winds, and then it is responded to with a brass chorale. With the addition of brass the sad theme is now starting to sound more triumphant. But then suddenly at 2:30 the consequent phrase appears in an almost happy-sounding but ambiguous Lydian mode chord (Bb C E). If this were Yoko Kanno it would have ended right there. But no, Hattori gives us a satisfying ending on a D major string chord straight out of the James Horner handbook. Good stuff.

Vinphonic
05-24-2017, 03:44 PM
I tend to agree and would like to add that the best themes are not only well constructed on the technical side of things and feature many variations of the melodic idea in the same piece of music, but also tell a "mini-story" of their own. You could totally play that theme in a classic film music concert and it will function just fine because it has every function of a symphonic piece of a concert work. It's completely self-sufficent while leaving room for expansion.

I also advocate that a piece of music can be criticized on an objective, technical level to a degree. Has it vertical or horizontal development? If so how well does it use either approach? (For example I would classify Nier Automata as a prime example of how to do vertical developement right) Has it "Structure"? Does it use every color the orchestra can offer? How well does the rythm match the melodic idea? Is the chord progression simple or complex and does either approach work for the piece? How well does it use keychanges? etc.

I personally add two other criteria: "Does the musical idea work bonedry as well as "baked" in reverb and sounddesign?" and "Is this piece enjoyable/comfortable/encouraging to play for an experienced musician either solo and/or in an ensemble?"

All those questions are justified and should come before an subjective opinion is formed (for a musician/composer/arranger). This ties perfectly with streichs point just how memorable and well suited for the concert hall early game chiptunes are. Frankly its because those pieces not only have good structure but are constructed in the most efficent way possible (because of software limitations). Early game music is so memorable because of its efficency.

The same thing applies to Oshima's Aerial Legends which is a Symphonic Suite in disguise. I also never realized it until AL, but mobile apps/games might be even more open for symphonic music than traditional games. Think about it, almost unrestricted time for cues is basically an invitation to a musical playground. That most pieces here clock at three minutes should be very telling.


The ability to see an arrangement of notes on the screen/on paper/or in one's mind and the ability to tell almost instantly if that piece (at least) has a structure and is well constructed BEFORE subjective opinion is build would be a nice thing to see people realize. If you play an instrument then you already have this "feel" in your hands and minds anyway. Like Tango said, he doesn't like Mozart on a subjective level but its objectivly wrong to call his work anything less than perfect and geniusly crafted and constructed music.

That is the very baseline upon which all things "subjective" regarding music should begin. This is what I mean by "standard". I guess that is also the core of my problem with modern Hollywood music, it fails when practices of music that are tried-and-true for centuries are applied to it. It has barely any structure (horizontal and vertical) and is not well-constructed by and large. The main thing you should take from a music institution or self-study is to get the baseline right, and then show the world what you are made of. Everything else comes after that. Build your voice and style upon those foundations. Like an old Hollywood veteran like Mike has said, your music will be infinitely more interesting, more valuable and more effective in any genre you do if you have the same fundament as Beethoven or Mahler in your head. It's the main difference of the vast cliff between a composer like Iwasaki and Junki XL. Even if both use the same tools, you instantly know if one has a foundation to use them on. Writing both an opera as well as a drumslamming electronica score should be the very standard of a composer's profession. Look at the other side of the world, dozens of different composers working with the same foundation and each and everyone has their own distintive voice and trademark style. You instantly know if you listen to Keiichi Okabe, Yuki Kajiura or MICHIRU's work even if all are using the same tools.

It's the reason a Touhou fanbase album or a Japanese Late-Night Anime score has musical pieces in it written or arranged by a complete nobody that has more in common with the classical/romantic/modern symphonic era on an objective level than 95% of film scores today. The majority of anime scores is far more deserving to be known, acknowledged and played in concert halls than anything we waste our worldclass players and facilities on today. Just listen to Sahashi's Gundam Symphonies and remember we could have scores like this recorded at Abbey Road all the time but instead we get embarassing lukewarm turds in comparison like Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

That the very fundament of music was abandonded made it possible that people without any training or musical knowledge made it into the business and no matter what they do they just can't be called competent, even if millions of people get off on it. The old Hollywood masters also were not vocal enough, died too soon and by and large missed to pass the torch on to a new generation. That John Williams has no apprentice might be the biggest tragedy of them all.


Sigh....

But I'm glad that people begin to realize that something is amiss. The recent Marvel debates about music might be just the start.
On that note here's something that is also encouraging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Ce1q5SMiE

A youtube analysis of an anime score as film music about Bahamut and because certain niche communities are comprised of compasionate and amazing people it was quickly brought to Ike's attention and he's head over heels about what we have to say about his work (good and bad). Japanese composers are by and large incredible close-knit, friendly and amazing people and very active on social networks. Ike quickly shared it on twitter and passed it on to colleagues. While Hollywood composers are by and large isolated entities, you can easily communicate with Japanese composers and show your love for their work AND THEY WILL NOTICE IT. To think that some random twitter post or video we release is instantly noticed and passed around colleagues and friends is just lovely.





Regarding Shostakovich and friends, spotting the old masters is always a fun game: http://picosong.com/MdTF / http://picosong.com/MdUY. / http://picosong.com/MdTZ

tangotreats
05-24-2017, 08:45 PM
I think Hisaishi is really the only one to "get away" with it out of those examples... People love to shout at him for stealing from Wagner, completely failing to appreciate that Hisaishi is actually sharing a musical joke.

Vinphonic
05-24-2017, 08:56 PM
At least musical jokes can happen over there ;)

Gate: The scene the music was written for was scene for scene Apocalypse Now and they got the vocals dead on! But because Japan is weird they have the Tokyo Philharmonic Chorus and yet fake brass...

And I'm sure the Denpa Kiyoshi scene was for comedy as well.

nextday
05-24-2017, 10:13 PM
MONSTER STRIKE SYMPHONY ~Prelude~
New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Nobuaki Nakata

Music by Riichiro Kuwabara
Arranged by Natsumi Kameoka, Kosuke Yamashita, Daisuke Shinoda & Sachiko Miyano



Sample: Impossible ~Concerto of Sin~ (http://picosong.com/MrB7/) http://i.imgur.com/v9WfOyB.gif

Download: https://mega.nz/#!cc0lRI4L!QHKbWVTRWUJejREBR_UImzVmEYbEulHiqzz8Pi-A0B8

This album has it all. Big orchestral action tunes, an opera, a mini piano concerto, a symphony, jazz. It's one of the best video game concerts that Japan has produced in recent years.

Please do yourself a favor and listen to this fantastic music. :D

tangotreats
05-24-2017, 10:40 PM
This is more like it. The music's not bad to begin with - which immediately sets this aside from some more recent efforts...

I could've done with more cohesion in the "symphony" - the arrangers' mark is very much on their respective movements which are really just a series of showpieces - but what showpieces! A main theme, that's actually a theme, pretty catchy, and melodic - and it gets a lovely five minute workout by Kameoka. The fourth movement is just nuts, in the best possible way.

Kameoka's Concerto of Sin is splendid - although I don't quite understand calling it a "concerto" when the piano doesn't appear until half way through.

Shinoda's piece is the standout for me.

THANK YOU!

Now... would a lossless release be too much to ask for this, the best example in the genre in probably twenty years?

Doublehex
05-24-2017, 11:48 PM
So I want to talk a bit about Vinphonic�s opinions on The Witcher 3. Spoilers, I disagree completely!

First off, let�s tackle how Vinphonic stated that Marcin Przybyłowicz considers himself more of a sound designer than a composer. The dude graduated from the F. Nowowiejski Academy of Music in Poland. His web site profiled him as studying jazz there. I did some quick research on it, and it�s Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bydgoszcz_Music_Academy_-_%22Feliks_Nowowiejski%22) is pretty lengthy. So I am pretty sure that the dude considers himself a composer, aspired to be a composer, studied for the profession. Unless you have proof that Przyblowicz thinks of himself more of a sound designer than a composer, don�t bring up unverified claims.

But let�s make this about the music. I like the music to The Witcher 3. I could go on and say I enjoy the music to the series as a whole, but for the sake of discussion I am going to focus on The Witcher 3. Also, when I am referencing to specific cues from it, I will be using my complete soundtrack. Because I am a lazy fuck, and I don�t really feel like having to download the original OST and extended OST and cross referencing between these three albums.

So, to me personally, I love the uniqueness of Witcher 3. It sounds so cool and interesting! I have never heard a soundtrack quite like it. I mean, just start off with The White Wolf (aka the main menu theme). We have these very harsh, almost folkish strings playing in dominance, front and center. There are lusher, more orchestral instruments in the background, but the harsh folkish sound is right in our face. Przybyłowicz is practically SCREAMING AT US. He is saying, in our face, just what kind of music we can expect � not the usual fantasy score.

Sure, the what he is saying is what we have treaded before a thousand times. But the HOW of it is totally new and strange, and I love it! The Wicther 3 is drowning in something that I think is lacking in so much music, and that is STYLE. Przybyłowicz just fills the score with personality, with a really unique sounding landscape, and I fucking love it!

I mean, �The Trail� is a good showcase of this. It starts off with vocals. Female vocals even. We�ve heard that before. But something is immediately off � the vocals are harsh and sharp! In ways that a male chorus tends to be. Our minds are instantly split between these two foundations � the fact that a woman is singing in a way that men are usually told to is wrecking with our brains. And the rest of the music matches with this strange beat. We don�t� get stuff like horns, but a really harsh string instrument that pushes the cue along. And halfway through, the chorus is practically screaming.

This is stuff we don�t see a lot of, and I think that is so cool. Przybyłowicz didn�t want to just do the same old fantasy thing. I mean, for the most part. He falters a few times (I think the only good cinematic cues are �Wake Up, Ciri� and �The Source�), and the fact that he has to compose six hours of music definitely wears on him, but overall this is a solid score that had PERSONALITY.

It�s unique! Like, when Przybyłowicz is in his element, I don�t think there is an epic score that sounds anything like it. It feels incredibly worn down, like the edge of a blade that hasn�t been sharpened in months. It caters to the weary world view of the setting, a world that has seen shit after shit, and it just won�t let up.

With that said, it is not nihilistic. It�s not drowning us in percussions and so many notes that we can�t make sense of it. It�s edgy, but not grimdark. Listen to �The Royal Palace in Vizimia�. Nilfgaard has just steamrolled over Temeria and has taken the royal palace as the center of their invasion. Przybyłowicz could have easily done a depressing theme, and it would have worked. But there is a certain cherriness to it, because Geralt has a history with this place. Foltest was probably the only king that Geralt could almost call a friend, and so much of Geralt�s rise as a Witcher was tied to not just Temeria�s king, but Temeria itself. Geralt had fought on behalf of both Temeria and its king several times before.

Walking through the Royal Palace is almost like strolling through home to him. Not home home, because that honor rests with Kaer Morhen, but it�s close. And the theme that Przybyłowicz wrote reflects that.

And how about �A Village on the Outskirts�? That�s not dark or grim at all. A little frayed to be sure, but this is a cue Przybyłowicz wrote for the countless villages that Geralt will travel through in the game. There is the sense of small life here, of people that work day in and day out, who are bothered needlessly by the stupid politics of the big players. But there is beauty here as well � the small lives these people live do have meaning. Not to the rest of the world, but to them. It�s a good cue.

Of course I need to give mention to the fight music. There are a few times it falls short � but more often than not, Przybyłowicz nails it. They are the most outlandish moments in the score. We have people singing in Polish, in a harsh rhythm that meets the frantic pace of the band. Sometimes, the vocals sound downright raspy, like as if their lungs have been scrapped by sandpaper.

Vinphonic, the music you have in your custom soundtrack is good. I have ZerA and Age of Pirates already, and I like both! But they are very usual scores � the usualness of written wonderfully, but we know what we are getting into. The Witcher 3 is, beyond anything else, unique. It has a personality and flair that I have not heard anywhere else.

That has value.

Not to mention the fight music if rad as fuck.

Vinphonic
05-25-2017, 12:55 AM
I appreciate your reply and opinion on the matter Doublehex, and you're obviously very passionate about this piece of work, so much so that I simply can't leave it at "I felt nothing" as I think that would be doing you a disservice.

But I got the vibe at the beginning that you wanted to talk about me and not with me, but that was just my sceptical nature I suppose.

But in seriousness, saying something is cool because its different is not good enough for me, because everything is labeled different and unique and never done before these days. Don't dozens of McCreary scores sound just like it (a little bit)? But I will say he had me for the Blood and Wine theme for 20 seconds before I had to give up. I think I can say with confidence that I've heared this a million times over and I have no tolerance for this stuff no more. Trust me, there was a time when I though this stuff was rad too, but my tastes have changed very much (for better or worse is of course subjective). I still have Witcher 3 in my collection but I'm currently not able to listen to anything from my main collection for a while and I have a few projects to finish so I'm sorry if I cannot anwser everything adequatly.

But just to clarify, I did research of him too and "sound designer" and "epic music composer" are terms associated with his name. And apart from saying I don't agree with his philosophy on music (at all) I think I did not belittle or attack him personally (I hope). Nonetheless, a classic film score approach for the cutscenes with giving Geralt and the various characters and settings themes and motifs that develop over the course of the game's story would have made the game more effective and memorable. And this doesn't have to be done with pure traditional orchestra only, but for a game prouding itself on polish history very little is evident in the music aside from the vocals. For me it does sound just like any other generic RC score or Bear McCreary score with a twist or two. If he is trained why no nods to Wojciech Kilar or any other famous polish composer or polish folk song? I also don't think you have to take it to heart when he is showered in praise and one guy in the corner with no career to speak of and who nobody listens to anyway says: "But he really doesn't deserve that"

PonyoBellanote
05-25-2017, 01:10 AM
I still only read pure etilism in this thread. And sometimes it honestly bothers the hell outta me. It's okay to have preferences. Or personal opinions, but a lot of you in this thread really are too vocal about your opinions, some can disagree with them but you act like they are the truth.

Doublehex
05-25-2017, 01:53 AM
I still only read pure etilism in this thread. And sometimes it honestly bothers the hell outta me. It's okay to have preferences. Or personal opinions, but a lot of you in this thread really are too vocal about your opinions, some can disagree with them but you act like they are the truth.

Dude, that's all you say. I only pop into this thread every now and then, but the few times I come in here you are STILL bitching about the "elitism" of this thread. You don't have to click the reply button to just restate your stated opinion.


I appreciate your reply and opinion on the matter Doublehex, and you're obviously very passionate about this piece of work, so much so that I simply can't leave it at "I felt nothing" as I think that would be doing you a disservice.

But I got the vibe at the beginning that you wanted to talk about me and not with me, but that was just my sceptical nature I suppose.

But in seriousness, saying something is cool because its different is not good enough for me, because everything is labeled different and unique and never done before these days. Don't dozens of McCreary scores sound just like it (a little bit)? But I will say he had me for the Blood and Wine theme for 20 seconds before I had to give up. I think I can say with confidence that I've heared this a million times over and I have no tolerance for this stuff no more. Trust me, there was a time when I though this stuff was rad too, but my tastes have changed very much (for better or worse is of course subjective). I still have Witcher 3 in my collection but I'm currently not able to listen to anything from my main collection for a while and I have a few projects to finish so I'm sorry if I cannot anwser everything adequatly.

But just to clarify, I did research of him too and "sound designer" and "epic music composer" are terms associated with his name. And apart from saying I don't agree with his philosophy on music (at all) I think I did not belittle or attack him personally (I hope). Nonetheless, a classic film score approach for the cutscenes with giving Geralt and the various characters and settings themes and motifs that develop over the course of the game's story would have made the game more effective and memorable. And this doesn't have to be done with pure traditional orchestra only, but for a game prouding itself on polish history very little is evident in the music aside from the vocals. For me it does sound just like any other generic RC score or Bear McCreary score with a twist or two. If he is trained why no nods to Wojciech Kilar or any other famous polish composer or polish folk song? I also don't think you have to take it to heart when he is showered in praise and one guy in the corner with no career to speak of and who nobody listens to anyway says: "But he really doesn't deserve that"

I mentioned you twice in a 1.5 page long reply. I really wasn't focused on attacking you at all.

But as to your other points...I don't like Witcher because it is different and has a unique feel to it. I like it because it is fun to listen to. The combat tracks are an adrenaline rush. The Novigrad themes are full of tension.

And McCreary is completly different in style, instrument choices, and how he uses those instruments. I could show the main theme from Da Vinci's Demon and then The White Wolf...and pretty much everyone would notice the difference immediately.

I have to ask...why does he NEED to reference Kilar? Why must he do that? Does every up and coming composer need to refernce those that came before?

The Zipper
05-25-2017, 07:28 AM
People love to shout at him for stealing from Wagner, completely failing to appreciate that Hisaishi is actually sharing a musical joke.Really now? I think Ponyo was the only time Hisaishi ever sampled Wagner. Ponyo's other name was Brunhilde, so I don't know who in their right mind would ever even accuse him of stealing when the reference was so in-your-face.

I do think that in his later Miyazaki collaborations, Hisaishi's music started sounding a bit more like Rota's, especially in Howl's and Wind Rises. Am I hearing things, or was this intentional as well?


Speaking of blatant homages:
http://picosong.com/MGbH/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks6R6AAUAzM

Vinphonic
05-25-2017, 10:26 AM
I have to ask...why does he NEED to reference Kilar? Why must he do that? Does every up and coming composer need to refernce those that came before?


My point was that the game is full of polish history and folklore so why is the music omiting this fact and sounding just like another indy folk album? The use of vocals might be unique but the use of strings and drums sure ain't to my ears. You have gorgeus medieval landscapes and yet all he could conjure was moody ambience pretty much every modern composer does for everything these days. I can only speak for myself, but I feel its inappropriately scored. And evoking Kilar or any other polish composer or folk song would play into the evoking polish folklore and history and gives it a sense of gravitas. And as cheesy as it sounds, it ensures their music lives on and is an indicator that some composers still remember him. If its done well you could also consider referencing a badge of honor. Pretty much all great composers do it occasionally, whether subconcious or intentional, its a demonstration that you know and live with musical history in your head. When a character is named Brunhilde and a character rides on waves and you don't have Wagner instantly popping in your head for example, I'm not sure what to think of that.

But bottom line, we both can still enjoy the game how we prefer to enjoy it, to our heart's contents, with music we love. That's the beauty of this wonderful interactive medium. You can't change a film's music to your tastes but you sure can with a game :) (I also urge everyone to play Nier:Automata if you haven't already, it's the greatest love letter to the medium of games I've ever played, and if you wonder why the chorus at the end doesn't sound professional, its because it's the whole dev team, plus director, plus everyone from MONACA, including Keiichi Okabe singing for you).



@Zipper
I've mentioned it before but Hisaishi is after Williams the strongest and most vocal advocator for appreciating classical music. I would say every bit of reference or homage happens for a reason in his work. Shostakovish is a man who experienced war on a level of scale and terror we hopefully never will but it also means he expressed the very essence of what he felt war and battles are about in a way that Hisaishi simply felt inadequate to express and went: "I can think of no better way to express the terror of war for this moment".

It's also the reason Hirano and friends reference the Baroque and early classic masters because no matter how hard you try to evoke imperial splendour, Mozart was living in it. It's the reason even a giant like Morricone pays homage to the Baroque world because there's a level of authenticity you simply can't match unless you live in Versailles.

I don't know, maybe Kanno's line of thinking is the same: "Battle of fighterjets against alien spaceships... can't do better than Arnold". Maybe even the merging of Strauss and Arnold in Battle Frontier had intense thought and reason put into it. I've never watched Aquarion but perhaps there was a scene or image where Kanno decided: "You know what would work perfect here, the music from an obscure artsy fartsy Shakespeare film".

Regarding Iwasaki, well, at least he has found his soulmate in music :D
But I cannot stress enough how much of a genius Iwasaki is to "reference" (improve) Zimmer and by doing so towering the original composition tenfold. He simultaniously makes me appreciate Zimmer more while also demonstrating just what genius he really is.

PonyoBellanote
05-25-2017, 11:57 AM
Dude, that's all you say. I only pop into this thread every now and then, but the few times I come in here you are STILL bitching about the "elitism" of this thread. You don't have to click the reply button to just restate your stated opinion.

Once in a while I pop in to say something else than that. But since I lack you people's finess and inteligence to engange in 20-paragraph long discussions..

tangotreats
05-25-2017, 12:19 PM
Unless you have proof that Przyblowicz thinks of himself more of a sound designer than a composer, don’t bring up unverified claims.

I'm fairly sure what was expressed was an opinion based on Przyblowicz's music - which consistently shows a bias for texture and rhythm, not for melody and development. Of course, we're all aware that graduating from a prestigious music school doesn't guarantee that you will be a superlative composer; it only equips you with the appropriate tools - you are, of course, fully entitled, as Przyblowicz does, to discard them in an attempt to do something completely original. (And there's always an outside chance you're actually just crap!)

That, and the man himself lists "sound design" as one of his specialties.


I have to ask...why does he NEED to reference Kilar? Why must he do that? Does every up and coming composer need to refernce those that came before?

Nobody said he needed to reference Kilar - but in classical music circles it is very customary to pay homage to your inspirations in your music. It is a way to acknowledge what has gone before and it helps you to define your place within that musical history. It's not necessary, but it's usually done - and on a personal level I do not understand how you can receive a solid classical education in a prestigious conservatory in a country that gave the world Gorecki, Kilar, Szymanowski, Weinberg, Panufnik, Lutoslawski, etc... and then go away to produce Witcher 3.

Witcher 3, an inherently Polish story by a Polish author, was an opportunity for a composer - particularly a Polish one - to show some genuine musical cultural awareness and do something a bit special. Instead, we have a mainly forgettable score with some Polish lyrics and, as Vinphonic said, the occasional twist which are interesting and definitely push the score above outright mediocrity, but I do see it as a big missed opportunity. It's different and yet familiar, but neither differentness nor familiarity necessarily lead to quality.


Przybyłowicz is practically SCREAMING AT US.

Generally, a good composer has no need to scream - if his words are appropriate, cultivated, and elegantly spoken, there is no need to raise one's voice.


The Wicther 3 is drowning in something that I think is lacking in so much music, and that is STYLE.

Now, that I can wholeheartedly agree with. I remember a review of a mediocre Goldsmith score (if such a thing exists) that accused it of being "all style, but no substance" - and therein lies the problem. This score is all style, and absolutely no substance. All texture, all interesting sounds, and a fun listen (I don't think it is, but I can easily see why others find it to be) but it's the epitome of background music; it is basic mood music, but provides pretty much none of the added value that can come from motif, melody, and development - the "horizontal" development spoken of earlier. The concepts that comes from centuries of classical music and was developed by people whose genius is completely unsurpassed in the modern era.


Really now? I think Ponyo was the only time Hisaishi ever sampled Wagner. Ponyo's other name was Brunhilde, so I don't know who in their right mind would ever even accuse him of stealing when the reference was so in-your-face.

I do think that in his later Miyazaki collaborations, Hisaishi's music started sounding a bit more like Rota's, especially in Howl's and Wind Rises. Am I hearing things, or was this intentional as well?

I remember reading a review around Ponyo's release along the lines that Hisaishi's "stealing" was on a par with Kanno's due to this - listening in context, you know that Ponyo's real name is Brunhilde, and that in her first "BIG" scene in the film, Hisaishi plays Ponyo's theme in the style of a particular moment in an opera where Brunhilde and her eight Valkyrie sisters take centre stage; Ride Of The Valkyries in The Valkyrie, by Wagner. Hisaishi's use here is half humour, and half musical literacy. He has obviously not just played Ride Of The Valkyries because he's stupid or lazy - the reason is exactly the opposite. And all this happens within a piece of music that, taken completely on its own merits, fits its scene like a glove. That reviewer didn't understand this; perhaps he didn't know the opera beyond that piece and didn't realise that a reference was being made, or maybe he hadn't seen the film and didn't know that Ponyo = Brunhilde. Maybe he didn't understand this specific display of musical culture where it is common to quote prior compositions and/or write in a pastiche style in order to connect the dots. Maybe he was just being a dick. It's a shame, though, that the genius of Hisaishi's reference is, except by a handful of people, either completely unrecognised or is written off as an example of plagiarism... :(

ladatree
05-25-2017, 12:30 PM
Give it 2-3 weeks and I'll have something you Hamaguchi fans never knew existed~~♪

tangotreats
05-25-2017, 02:12 PM
:happycroc:

nextday
05-25-2017, 03:57 PM
Give it 2-3 weeks and I'll have something you Hamaguchi fans never knew existed~~♪
Is it Megumi no Daigo? I've been looking for that one for a while.

I once saw it on Amazon for less than $10 and regret not buying it. Only later did I learn that it's a rare CD.

The Zipper
05-25-2017, 06:29 PM
Of course, we're all aware that graduating from a prestigious music school doesn't guarantee that you will be a superlative composer; it only equips you with the appropriate tools (And there's always an outside chance you're actually just crap!)This is sadly true as well. Just look at Beltrami. Studied under Goldsmith and barely sounds a cut above RC and Brian Tyler.


And Sawano continues being Sawano:

http://www.bilibili.com/video/av10816392/

Vinphonic
05-25-2017, 08:45 PM
Beltrami is a casuality of Hollywood executives in their crusade against music, if even Junkie XL admits he would like to do things with more melodies and less drums you can bet that they chained, tortured and crippeled everyone competent until only small glimpses of life inside them remain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xch9Gex9j6o

Of course that piece isn't even in the movie, just 30 seconds at the end because god forbid you feel something while looking at a love scene between two characters on screen where the music plays out fully for four minutes.
But I sure am glad that all those EPIC DRUMS were added and an intelligent piece of music that has been going for two minutes suddenly turns into utter trash... thanks Hollywood.


But I will agree that even unchained Beltrami would probably only achieve a pale imitation of the real thing, just compare his attempt at action to THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxCdPRisMOw

Or even THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ88QPByBNk

streichorchester
05-25-2017, 10:13 PM
Wow, sounds like he went full John Barry there.

Every time I listen to Silvestri's Mummy Returns I'm reminded that he was booted off Pirates of the Caribbean around that time for some strange reason.

The Zipper
05-26-2017, 12:21 AM
Beltrami is a casuality of Hollywood executives in their crusade against music, if even Junkie XL admits he would like to do things with more melodies and less drums you can bet that they chained, tortured and crippeled everyone competent until only small glimpses of life inside them remain I would agree if you were talking about Brian Tyler or Steve Jablonsky, but unlike those two Beltrami has had a dozen chances where he didn't have to make mindless Hollywood action music, like 3:10 to Yuma or The Hurt Locker, and he still fell flat on his face. Where is his Lego Universe or Steamboy? That Gods of Egypt cue is nice, but is something that Goldsmith or Oshima or many others could make in their sleep, and far from representative of his overall style.

kanno82
05-26-2017, 03:26 AM
After watching this video, I wonder what Yoko Kanno's house looks like... :)

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------


How could anyone not want to be a composer after watching that?

After watching this video, I wonder what Yoko Kanno's house looks like... :)

BladeLight52
05-26-2017, 03:50 AM
Kohei Tanaka is my favorite japanese composer of all time. I have a good amount of his rare earlier CD's from 1986-1993. I've collected those because I am a fan of his work and I appreciate all of the dedication, work, and life he puts into his compositions. My life would be complete if every single piece of Kohei Tanaka's works, especially his older ones, were released, including music that still remains unreleased to this day (e.g. Flashman, Three Musketeers, Yaiba, GaoGaiGar). I would someday like to meet him. He seems like a pretty cool guy!

BTW, The Laughing Salesman Soundtrack, both the original 1989 anime and the NEW 2017 anime, will be released on Jun 21. I've watched the NEW series. I really like how Mr Tanaka re-arranged and updated most of the original music from the 1989 anime, including Moguro's letimotif. It sounds as brilliant as ever.

Doublehex
05-26-2017, 04:20 AM
How could anyone not want to be a composer after watching that?

Because I cannot imagine a life for myself where I never wanted to write stories.

Great video though. I love seeing artists at work. Seeing through the looking glass, and seeing an artists actually create, is always fascinating to me. We tend to romanticize and transform artists into mythological creatures. But really, they are just people that work their asses off every single day at their craft. And getting to see them do that...well, I just like to see the artists become human. That is a more interesting portrayal to me than as idols that cannot fail.


Generally, a good composer has no need to scream - if his words are appropriate, cultivated, and elegantly spoken, there is no need to raise one's voice.

Bro, I wasn't being literal. You can afford a man a little hyperbole every once in a while.

Sirusjr
05-26-2017, 06:55 AM
I get what you're saying Doublehex but the music for The Witcher 3 generally either leaves me feeling depressed or pulls me out of the experience. As I have stated elsewhere, I feel the game much more deeply when I am playing with other music or no music. I get that it is hard to score for something when you regularly go from wandering to combat to wandering but that has been a problem with games since the beginning of time. Yet earlier games had memorable world map music, memorable combat music, and memorable town music. I don't get that here. Part of that might be my natural aversion to certain folk instrumentation but other parts of it is the music doesn't have much to say. And no the combat music does not get my blood pumping. The danger in facing enemies on Blood and Broken Bones does that. Try playing with the music off and see if you still have the same experience.

And Ponyo - Really? All you can say is elitist? Tastes change and evolve and you start to appreciate aspects of music you didn't know existed earlier. It is all an evolution with anyone who goes through it. Ultimately it comes down to what moves you and touches you emotionally. I have a much harder time explaining what I like and don't like about music but I know what moves me and a lot of modern writing doesn't do that. I sure as hell wish it did. I enjoy those feelings of exhilaration you get from music.

hater
05-26-2017, 10:16 AM
and again: The witcher 3 expansion blood and wine has MUCH better music than the main game.more of what some people hoped the game would sound like.

tangotreats
05-26-2017, 10:20 AM
That's what I listened to...

Beltrami... In a parallel universe where Hollywood scoring continued at the level of quality and style established in the late 70s and early 80s, Beltrami *could* have ended up a cut above the average. In cues like the one Vinphonic posted, you can hear the internal tension as his desire to write long, beautiful, naturally-unfolding melodies clashes with his grudging acceptance that you have to write a certain way in Hollywood. There is some genuinely heartbreaking romance in there, but then listen to how conventional and unimaginative the chord progressions become.

I can't say I have the same confidence in Tyler or Jablonsky. Tyler's best so far as been Lego Universe, which I don't think was actually good - it was good for Tyler, and that's a big, big, distinction.

Jablonsky... what are we talking about here, Steamboy? Again, I just don't see what everybody's raving about - it's derivative and simplistic, and though it isn't like this ALL THE TIME, often becomes little more than a nicely orchestrated MV/RC score - rich in power anthems, rocky percussion overdubs, and melodies straight out of "Writing Melodies for Dummies". It's also over a decade old.

None of these guys are active outside the world of film music - and you can bet your bottom dollar that they're not studying to Bach to brush up on their counterpoint and Rimsky-Korsakov to brush up on their orchestration.


Bro, I wasn't being literal. You can afford a man a little hyperbole every once in a while.

Oh, I know. I just thought it was a good point to make off the back of what you said. :)

Vinphonic
05-26-2017, 12:44 PM
@kanno82: If there's one day such a video and we can spot no gigantic Hollywood DVD and soundtrack collection and a John Williams and Prokofiev poster we know she's a fraud :D

(I wonder if the Japanese have taken the next step in their idol reverance already, Sawada joked on twitter about wishing to have one for Goldsmith and Leonard Bernstein)


@BladeLight52: Good choice :D Tanaka is MUSIC incarnate and has written EVERYTHING of exceptional quality from Symphony to smashing rock electronica. I'm so glad to see he is given so much respect, awe, praise and concert appearance these days. Not to mention he has three new projects in the works and we still can anticipate Salesman, which has one or two moments where I just had to smile: "He still got it". We have the upcoming game score to Princess Connect and a BIG project he has not revealed yet. Not to mention I find GD2 the most exceptional outburst of color and music in recent years. It's just so much good fun and I really can't wait for the Studio Japan concert to get out somehow. He's also an incredible person to be around (he also gets all the attention from the ladies :D)

And welcome :)


I also have to ask, do you happen to have his two concert CDs with the Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra and Chorus, one about Sakura Wars and the other a compilation of his work??? You would be my hero!!!!



EDIT: Also a great opportunity to post the reuploaded version:


By request, from THE BIG ORCHESTRAL ACTION MUSIC THREAD! (Thread 57893)




Kohei Tanaka
Symphonic Cascades
Members of the Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra & the Tokyo Philharmonic Chorus
Vocals by Osamu Takai, Chihiro Yonekura, Mayumi Tanaka & many more




I. One Piece Symphony (56:48)

01. Overture to an Adventure (6:27)
02. I. Movement "It was the Golden Age of Pirates..." (11:16)
03. II. Movement "Encounter on Port Island" (12:36)
04. III. Movement "I will surpass you & Bonds of Friendship" (12:24)
05. IV. Movement "The Age of Dreams shall never perish!"(11:15)
06. Encore (2:48)


II. SciFi Concert (62:54)

01. Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team (15:09)
02. Open your Eyes to the Winner's Elegy (7:35)
03. GaoGaiGar: Genesis Poem (11:14)
04. Beautiful Wings of Light (4:14)
05. Gunbuster: Symphonic Poem (19:38)
06. Encore (5:02)



III. Fantasy Concert (61:44)

01. Bastard!! Metalicana Knights (2:51)
02. Bastard!! Symphonic Poem (21:49)
03. Operatic Fantasy Medley (12:22)
04. Alundra: Symphonic Suite (6:39)
05. Gravity Daze: Gravitation Medley (14:02)
06. Encore (3:59)



IV. Drama Concert (59:03)

01. Beyond Sorrow (5:01)
02. End of Eternity: Symphonic Poem (14:25)
03. The Love of Flowers (5:42)
04. Gad Guard: Transendence Suite (8:57)
05. The Heart of the Umbrella (4:29)
06. Hyouka: Symphonic Romance (8:01)
07. The Road to Hope (5:07)
08. Encore (6:48)



V. Sakura Wars Orchestral Concert (59:42)

01. Stage Play "One Pound of Dreams" (12:26)
02. Overture "Imperial Floral Assault Unit" (4:20)
03. Symphonic Poem (18:58)
04. Operatic Song Medley "The Battle for Paris" (14:20)
05. Miracle Bells (6:56)
06. Encore (2:40)






Symphonic Cascades was created by me and is a pure work of fiction. It is just a humble tribute to Kohei Tanaka who is a fantastic orchestral composer, a beacon of joy and a huge inspiration. I carefully selected tracks from nearly everything he has composed in the last two decades and rearranged it with a "Symphony Concert" context in mind. I slightly worked on each track, applied some slight reverb, EQ and saturation. My reference was as always the recordings of Erich Kunzel, especially "Star Tracks" since they have near perfect dynamic range.

I worked on it for quite some time now, whenever I had free-time. In the end it turned into a five hour collection of Tanaka's very best symphonic music across all genres. I also reworked my One Piece Symphony. It's now traditional four part movements with a whole new movement from Tanaka's very best music from the movies. I also interplayed the different Orchestral parts
with his orchestral songs but fear not because most would not feel out of place in an opera hall or a broadway musical. It should be said that Tanaka was very much inspired by old Disney and it definetely shows in his own songs which are instant gold by any standard as far as anime is concerned. He even demonstrates to every aspiring composer that dirt-chap sounding samples can still do the trick if you know how to "write" music. You will rarely find something on the scale of sound that Tanaka conjures here and it sure can't get more epic than this.


PW: Cascade (https://anon.click/vuwug94)




I believe this collection examplifies that Tanaka is first and foremost a symphonist. His music in general has good-old class, symphonic structure and shows exorbitant skill and talent with the orchestra. The amount of joy he is able to evoke with his music is in correlation with his own joy of composing and "living" his music. One only needs to see his performance on stage and in the concert hall, like Hisaishi, this is a man who enjoys every second of the music he writes and the joy it brings to the listener. It's also no coincidence that he established himself as an "anime" composer and also truely loves the medium. I hope his career continues for a very long time and I also wish for another Sakura Wars type project to happen because he really wrote his heart out for that franchise.

But in the meantime... Enjoy!








EDIT: I also was a little bored yesterday, picked a random anime show from this season I did not check before, some usual ecchi trash, I skipped to a random point... and... Prokofiev's Dance of the Knights... cheap small ensemble but Prokofiev nonetheless... what a world.

Doublehex
05-26-2017, 02:47 PM
and again: The witcher 3 expansion blood and wine has MUCH better music than the main game.more of what some people hoped the game would sound like.

It strikes a very different tonal feel from the core game. Not necessarily better.

nextday
05-26-2017, 09:36 PM
George Oldziey launched a Kickstarter for Wing Commander Vol.2, a continuation of his 2014 recording project. His goal this time is to record 45 minutes of music (the first volume had around 30 minutes).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1373816047/wing-commander-orchestral-recording-volume-2

hater
05-26-2017, 09:57 PM
It strikes a very different tonal feel from the core game. Not necessarily better.
more my taste.noble fantasy music.

JBarron2005
05-26-2017, 10:02 PM
Well I haven't popped up in here for quite a while... First, I love The Witcher 3 score. Also, the composers of that did not score much of the folkish sounds. That goes to the group Percival. The composers you all mentioned scored the orchestral elements while the group Percival improvised/wrote music to layer with it. That is all according to a YouTube featurette on the music.

Secondly, my string orchestra composition was well received in Iowa City. I was nervous about the reception before the performance, but once there was a standing ovation I was relieved that people enjoyed the work. I am having a studio recording made to have available for purchase. It was a blast working with the musicians during rehearsal as the group is a lively bunch. I can't wait to do another commission for them :). The footage should be up next month hopefully.

And lastly, maybe some of you would be willing to check my latest music out. I did a considerable amount of arrangements for folk instrumentation of various game pieces (As you can tell I did a few Mitsuda works). I am interested to see what Vinphonic thinks. I know folk isn't for everyone but my approach tends to be less traditional since I have orchestral leanings.

LINK:


https://travelersvgm.bandcamp.com/

Vinphonic
05-27-2017, 12:21 AM
Glad to see you around :)

And I'm very honored you consider my opinion worth anything ;)


Since I'm always prefering albums and music made by musicians and not primarily sound-designers, I think I should put upfront that I appreciate your work very much and what I'm about to say are mostly nitpicks.
But since you asked my unbiased opinion, here we go:



Prelude to Final Fantasy

Pr�lude et Prologue: I believe the vocals needed to reappear again after the instrumental section (which I would have done with a Tin Whistle) at the end, a soprano as a counter would have worked nicely as well.

Elia, Maiden of the Water and Troian Beauty are really well done.

Beyond the Deep Blue Sea did not work for me, I believe the second part needs different instrumentation.

Bran Bal - The Soulless Village: A cello as counterpoint would have given it a bit more impact. But its nice.


Aontacht

The Foxhunter's/Na Ceannabh�in Bh�na/Angus John MacNeil of Barra: Something needed to happen to that idea around the 1 minute mark, a solo guitar passage for instance.

M�ire Bhruinneall: The percussion could have appeared much later or more nuanced at the beginning for my tastes.

Kr�kevisa: Again, the idea is too simple for 8 minutes straight, give it to different instruments, add more sections or cut half of it.

Margot Labourez les Vignes: I expected a chorus the second time through but two minutes is alright. Nicely done.


The Travelers

Really nice music for the most part.

Calm Before the Storm and Vinden Bev�ger Mig needed some variety, three minutes for Mig is too long.

The Place I Shall Return to Someday: A second voice at the end as counterpoint.

Ancient Beasts Lay Dormant, Baile Coimhth�ocha and Seipeal are really nice.

Clockwork Town: Very well done!

Ath-cheangal: More variety and a different instrument/samples. Violin or flute would have worked better.

T�ydellinen Keho: That would have worked perfect with Middle Eastern Vocals in the second half.

Diddle's Organ (from "Legend Of Mana"): At the end I would have replaced the flute with violin. But very nice.

Last Battle is really well done.

Is Tusa Mo Dh�chas could have had more variety in instruments.


Winterhearth is nice.


Overall I like it very much but it could have had more changes in instruments or additional sections to make the pieces more interesting.
But to be honest, I could see myself using your music as Tavern music in various games (I will try it anyway) ;)





I've said it before but not everything needs to be big orchestral symphonic action to impress me: The Adventurer's Beginning (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzFwrC3yCrs&index=2&list=PL94F7A86DA2E78E32) / Mangetsu no Dolche (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqWw2r_E1GM&index=22&list=PLhsGgzcJcmy5ZxwqEBnJCx69OKn5jTOnH)

And I quite like folk: Hikaru Wadachi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbsaZMG9w30#t=22m27s)


As a fundamental principle, a musical idea should function as well with a full symphony orchestra as well as just one or two instruments and your voice: Lorule Castle (Milk Bar) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDjUl99jJJk&list=PLJtLAyYfDCShbw4IGLdk_MpZT5F7WfbZT&index=14)

streichorchester
05-27-2017, 12:36 AM
Great video though. I love seeing artists at work. Seeing through the looking glass, and seeing an artists actually create, is always fascinating to me. We tend to romanticize and transform artists into mythological creatures. But really, they are just people that work their asses off every single day at their craft. And getting to see them do that...well, I just like to see the artists become human. That is a more interesting portrayal to me than as idols that cannot fail.
I actually felt the video was romanticizing the creative process a little too much. The video seems a little too perfect.

On another note, I just listened to this for the first time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMlbahuo9Ao

It's an amazing piece, but very familiar...

Doublehex
05-27-2017, 01:58 AM
I actually felt the video was romanticizing the creative process a little too much. The video seems a little too perfect.

On another note, I just listened to this for the first time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMlbahuo9Ao

It's an amazing piece, but very familiar...

Yeah, it is a bit clean, but it is still a window. You still see Oshima working, cooperating with musicians, putting pen to paper.

The Zipper
05-27-2017, 07:14 AM
While we're on the subject of Polish composers, has anyone else here listened to Abel Korzeniowski's Nocturnal Animals? Although some parts of it were trying too hard to homage Vertigo, as a whole, it's probably one of the best western (non-Japanese) soundtracks from the past year.

cryosx
05-27-2017, 07:30 AM
Yeah, it is a bit clean, but it is still a window. You still see Oshima working, cooperating with musicians, putting pen to paper.

That's actually not Oshima, it's MICHIRU iida

Doublehex
05-27-2017, 09:59 AM
That's actually not Oshima, it's MICHIRU iida

...wtf, for real? Jeez lowez, someone should have put that up in big bold letters at the start!

tangotreats
05-27-2017, 06:55 PM
Nowhere in the video is Oshima mentioned, seen, or her music heard - so, yeah...

I would also say it's either terrible news for Iida (37) or fantastic news for Oshima (56) that they could be mistaken for each other... ;)

Doublehex
05-27-2017, 07:08 PM
Dude, they share the same name, and it was shared in this thread. It's not that unreasonable.

Vinphonic
05-27-2017, 07:33 PM
MICHIRU is Michiru Iida's artist name. It's why Michiru Oshima is generally only refered to as Oshima (other than the fact that she's one of the greats).

I also am not surprised that a promotional video on her own website where you can buy her music, is a bit rose-colored ;)

I believe I also shared it the first time around christmas with a discussion about her first big project Izetta: The Last Witch, so that's why it was easy to miss if one does not frequent this thread or vgmdb/Japanese BGM twitter/facebook regulary. Which is also a subtle reminder that it can't hurt to pay this thread a visit more often :) I know sometimes its not exactly pleasing for everyone not amused by some frustrated personas letting off some steam about what goes wrong in the world or share opinions you dislike but I think the positive far outweigh the negative. Afterall, it hasn't been around almost ten years for nothing, and will with certainly continue somewhere else if this forum closes ;)

Doublehex
05-27-2017, 10:36 PM
Honestly, the issue I have with this community (and I use "issue" in the least offensive way possible) is just the amount of hyperbole that gets spread around. Things like "crusade against orchestral music" just makes me roll my eyes at times. I can definitely see how someone, who is getting into music and sees this massive thread, could see something like that and just go "Nope, GTFO".

Vinphonic
05-28-2017, 02:07 AM
I believe dialogue and discussion breeds a better world and understanding one another is always better than leaving in discomfort but fine, have it your way. But please quote me correctly then. And if hundreds of articles online, youtube videos about the subject with millions of views, even a video from some anime channel, behind the scenes, RECORDED evidence by studio players and Hollywood veterans are addressing the issue, maybe I'm not the ignorant one here...

What follows are now some FINAL thoughts on the state of the "modern" film music industry

The problem with modern Hollywood and much of our music today is simply a lack of standard, skill and talent. I'm not condescending or hallucinating, I'm only adressing what is the honest truth. I will say it with no spite this time.

And I'm not talking in the least about JNH, Elfman or any classicaly trained composer who now mostly composes things in total confrontation to their previous work that made me fall in love with their music in the first place.
If you seriously want to tell me, the guy who composed THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8zYrt0c8O4) ended up producing this electronica mess (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oInOWapiwI) because of free will and love for cools sounds, THE walking textbook of classical music, then I would question your sanity.

The problem is that technology replaced skill rather than supporting and amplyfying it. The tools we have access to as composers today are beyond amazing and unbelievable. Even if you want to write something traditional like a symphony, you have now more help and possibility than ever. So I should be hearing stuff all around us that makes me cry tears of happiness or marvel how dubstep can be fused with opera to such an effective level, I should have a fun time discovering all those homages and tributes to past composers who are accumulating to a cultural history and a history of mankind in general. I should marvel how a medieval fantasy series gets 100% accurate accoustic folk music taken from ancient european notebooks or a comedy in a classical institution has 100% authentic period music from the Baroque and early classical era. I should be hearing an evolution of the musical legacy pioneered by Goldsmith, Horner and Williams and pretty much any composer now dead or over 60. But when I quickly check something like Star Trek Beyond or 50% of Rogue One, I quickly want to close the player and grieve in despair what counts as orchestral film music these days and is even praised = What I really mean with that hyperbole is that Giacchino's efforts are not even a fraction as good as infinitely better and more skilled efforts within the same franchise. And when I really want to fall into the depths of hell, where even Penderecki's Entombment of Christ ( Don't look it up if you have a weak heart) sound like the most soothing hymn of angels, I listen to modern TV scores and modern movie scores not by Giacchino: THE HORROR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2LLS33eQvk&index=3&list=PLBKadB95sF46sIN2fmEWPPzlCeRXx-Lio). (I actually use this as an example of "modern" scoring, could have really been produced by anyone)

This has nothing to do with age, gender or nationality when a 25 year old (female/male) Japanese composer can rock my socks of, it's not a political issue (FFS if you would hire composers on merit, of course we would have more women in this field of work, Ms. Karpman) = This was referencing the fact that Laura Karpman (and even Lennie Moore wtf) have bought into that whole feminist nonsense :( (DON'T COMMENT ON THAT IN THIS THREAD EVER, EVER!!!!!!)

It's all about skill and talent. And I stand by saying that Witcher 3 demonstrates very little of it. I'm not saying it demonstrates none but not enough that I see something special in it. In fact calling Age of Pirates only "good" while then raving on about Witcher 3 shows little understanding for the skill needed to craft something on its level, I see far too often. Great music is often subsumized in a sea of mediocrity in favor of the next hot topic. Crafting a piece of music that ebbs and flows for six minutes with intense machiantions going on underneath is infinitely more worthy of praise than screaming vocals in a louder dynamic, no matter how fitting for a scene or moment they are. Of course that can be appreciated and loved, but its not even on the same level of skill required to write an hour of symphonic music where every piece can stand as its own symphonic suite. I find it frankly insulting to just call it a good game score and even usual. That would be doing a disservice to Poteyenko's achievement, a composer pretty much no one knows or even appreciates except a few people in this place while Witcher 3 is showered with music awards and praised to the moon "one of the greatest game scores ever". Age of Pirates is anything close to usual or the norm in orchestral game music, or western game music for that matter. The only score similar to it would be Outcast and even that one is totally different in color and musical voice. I also noticed its pretty much more gushing praise about the game itself that I'm in no way trying to belitte, but it's less about the music itself. Would you be really be holding the music in such high regard if it was released solo with a polish name on some polish indy album and wasn't actually attached to a good rpg?... I somehow doubt it. And I've never even seen the game Yuri Poteyenko wrote music for and for me it achieves a level of magnificence when playing the very same game that previously evoked nothing inside me. I felt an emotional connection to the game that the original music failed to capture. That's the reason for my distaste for it.

My gushing love for Japan and Japanese composers comes from the fact that they are model composers, skilled and appreciative of musical legacy, who fuse their skill and talent with technology. A world that appreciates and has shown and continues to show so much love for Europe and American's cultural, and especially musical history and Hollywood's musical legacy that certain people working in the Hollywood business today should be ashamed of themselves, frankly. I see skill and talent in all parts of Japan and to a lesser extend Europe, but its slowly turning into becoming exclusive islands on a black see. But thankfully those island are filled to the brim with music that stirs my soul.

If you think Gods of Egypt is good film music, please listen to more Silver Age film scores like Goldsmith's Mummy, which is leagues above anything we hear in movies today (aside from the old league's signs of resurrection), structurally, compositonally and orchestrationally, and its evident on paper and in sound. Not to mention it perfectly tells the story of the movie and amplifies it on screen. Not to mention one or the other anime score easily puts it to shame. Also, if I take a composer like Tanaka and place him next to Brian Tyler, Giacchino and the whole RC brigade, its just asinine to call them even acceptable composers in comparison. They are amateurs working in a professional environment. The players are professional, the recording engineers are professionals, the orchestrators are professional and yet the composers are complete amateurs or inadequate for said professionals by comparison. And even excluding Giacchino, the best the next generation has to offer are Brian Tyler and Bear McCreary, two public douchebag personas that are raving on and on how cool or nerdy they are with their DJ equipment or "strange instruments" but when I see their recording videos I only see sad orchestral players and a piece of music that is just a mess of sounds to my ears: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wILho030bY8. And thats as good as it gets from the next generation. I just can't call the them composers when Michael Kamen, Basil Poledouris, Bruce Brougton, Elliot Goldenthal, Don Davis and a billion others were just film and television composers too. There needs to be a distinction made, and calling them amateurs is the least offensive thing I should say about them spitting in the face of the previous generation of professionals. This is the core of the problem and my source of frustration. It's a logical, sound reason. The discrepancy between skill in one profession compared to another in the same field of work when taken previous generations of the same profession into account. Its a decline of quality and the business is in danger.

And thats excluding the fact how movies have changed the past decades. Scoring to picture, a practice now a lost art in favor of quick edits, and only really revived in Japan, elevated many already good movies to greatness, or saved not so good movies to exceptional success. We still have the occasional movie scored the old ways like Hateful 8 or Force Awakens but its pretty much an oddity. I don't know how it must feel to grow up with movies or go to the cinema these day to see films that (mostly) share not even a fraction of what made old movies cult classics or inspire you to the bone and have a profound impact on your life. If you just don't hear a Horner, Goldsmith or Williams score in your movies to experience the art of film scoring, that wonderful fusion of picture and sound, that wonderful musical storytelling that is derived from musical, cultural history that leaves you crying tears of joy or tears of grief, like I did with Nimh, STAR WARS and American Tail, I just don't know how you could get a taste of the height film score is capable of. We are still celebrating the 40th Anniversary of STAR WARS today, a franchise so many people are somehow just stupidly mad for, a franchise that basically exists today because of the skill and talent of its composer and the editors who saved it from total disaster at the last minute, and for no other reason. They never got the credit they deserved. All those Star Wars games you have fond memories of as a child, all those orchestral masterpieces in the 80s because orchestral music was hip again, even that dull video game cutscene of a movie Rogue One, all because of the immense skill and talent of a few professionals whose breed is all but extinct these days.

Without those professionals, we won't have "movie magic" anymore and the next generation of children won't experience a movie that deeply touches them and sets them on a path to discover GREAT music. If today's composers abandon or don't even appreciate or even know the generations of Hollywood composers and musical history in general that came before them and surrounded their profession before they sacrificed it for their god of sound design and if they don't care to preserve their legacy and try to inherit their work, we will lose a part of music culture. We had an evolution from Bach to Williams but as far as Hollywood goes that evolution continues elsewhere today.

xanther10
05-28-2017, 02:12 AM
Despite what anyone else says about this thread you guys really know your music and I look forward to coming here and reading your viewpoints on composers, and the state of film and anime music today. So many american film composers sound either the same or bland. There is no demand for epic music anymore. However many of the Japanese composers you talk about here have held on to the grand orchestral music that I remember when I was younger.

The Zipper
05-28-2017, 02:14 AM
Anime music as a whole is kind of a niche within a niche as it is. Orchestral anime music shrinks that down even further. Then there's also the fact that this whole site thrives on illegal downloads...

I will agree that the amount of hyperbole that surrounds some of the discussion in this thread is a bit exaggerated, but as a whole I get the impression that many people think this place is "elitest" is because the taste in music in this thread is very different than other anime websites like Animesuki or MAL, where it's commonplace to see composers like Sawano and Kajiura get endless worship. The hard reality is that most people in the anime community don't even know who Oshima or Hirano are. And so when people like them or dozens of other more obscure composers get praised heaped on them in this thread (which happens almost every page), it's all brushed aside by people itching to pull out the "elitest" shotgun and focus on whenever criticism is thrown on some more mainstream anime/game composer.

Most people who leave this thread do so because they can't deal with arguments about how Kajiura or Sawano is a one-trick pony, how Sagisu is relying on a ghostwriter to do all his work nowadays, or how Kanno occasionally steals. But these sort of arguments make up a tiny percentage of what actually goes on in this thread, with it's main purpose to be bringing up some of the work of lesser known orchestral composers to the forefront (at least when it comes to anime and video games).

Even with all talk of tastes aside, I find this place much more pleasant to be in than places like MAL, where dissing the great god Sawano is worthy of bringing in multiple paragraphs of swear words thrown at you.

Doublehex
05-28-2017, 02:31 AM
e: fuck this i let things get to my head

streichorchester
05-28-2017, 02:43 AM
On another note, I just listened to this for the first time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMlbahuo9Ao

It's an amazing piece, but very familiar...
No one else hears it?

The Zipper
05-28-2017, 02:50 AM
I came here to talk about music that I love.From what I've seen you came here and presented a soundtrack that you liked. Most other people didn't like it, and when they explained why you threw a 12 year-old's tantrum.

Not once did I see Vinphonic throw an insult at you. "Sexist and racist"? I'm not sure how much mental gymnastics you had to pull to come to that conclusion.

I also find it hilarious how you have the nerve to call him an "insulting contributor" to the thread when he is the one who has provided many of the musical compilations of different composers that I have seen so far in this thread.

No dude, so far the only one throwing the insults here is you. This is the type of childish behavior I just spoke about seeing all the time on MAL. It's sad to see any member here sink to that level.

Herr Salat
05-28-2017, 12:00 PM
Six Degrees of Yoko Kanno: Michiru (Iida) proofread / transcribed Kanno's Song of Departure score:



<hr>

2012 flashback to happier times when we got along, itself prompted by a discussion of the mastery of the "pencil and paper" craft:


So you don't feel left out... Two things we learn from this exercise: a) I draw at the skill level of a two year-old, and b) All you guys are fantastic. :)



Anybody left off because I ran out of space and my hand started to ache. :P

tangotreats
05-28-2017, 12:04 PM
I wanted so badly to stay out of this one, but when you go after Vinphonic - particularly with foul language, personal insults, and deliberate misinterpretations, you go after all of us. You disrespect one of the nicest, fairest, most generous people on the planet - a man who has shown us all what kind of a person he is by his actions, not his words. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself, apologise to Vinphonic, and then apologise to the thread.


And I fucking hate how you decided to potray me as a sexist and a racist. I would love Witcher 3 JUST AS MUCH if it was a woman that composed it instead of a man. Music is completly asexual in that regard, and damn you for thinking that I would view it in any other way.

He didn't - his post is there, plain to see, and very easy to comprehend.

He was suggesting that you gave poor music an easier ride because it was attached to a popular game (and one that you particularly enjoyed) than if it were a simple release of music by Average Joe. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. I understood it perfectly fine; why didn't you?


You are an elitist. (May 27th, to Vinphonic.)


I come in here you are STILL bitching about the "elitism" of this thread. (25th May, to Ponyo.)

:rolleyes:

Vinphonic
05-28-2017, 06:41 PM
He doesn't need to aplogize to me or anyone, Tango, but some gesture of reconcilitation would be nice. If that is what he took out of my points, then of course I'm sorry if he took it personal, I will be even more clear what I mean from now on to avoid something like this happening again. It's the last thing I wanted but here we are, and the mess is made. However, I believed I always made it abundantly clear I seperate personal and public persona before I speak ill of any composer.

Not to say I did not shed a tear for taking the bullet and having my back 100%, I was of course very moved and grateful for your support.

But you give me too much credit, I'm not a saint, I only really grew found of this civil and gentle place full of civil and gentle people, the way I sense it. Whenever I'm on my phone, in studio or at home, I always give this thread a quick glance.

But back to the warzone, in a discussion namecalling doesn't solve anything other than to prove the opponents point right. I've yet to hear someone defend the state of the industry with solid arguments so that I can be happy as can be to find out I was just a lunatic afterall. Nothing would please me more than to learn I was wrong about everything and should just shut up. When I actually want to find out what makes the afor mentioned cool and rad music so great, that especially I, who perhaps knows a bit more about music than I would like, must see its greatness, I find usually little basis for such praise other than blind devotion to a product/persona without reason = fanboyism. Such attempts always end in a "fuck you". It doesn't matter if its Tyler, Junkie, Giacchino and to a far lesser extend Sawano or Yokoyama. It's all the same mentality. (Ironic that my very first rant/letting of steam on the internet was on this very forum about this exact topic and this one is mirroring it to a scary degree.) Now I'm not saying its shit, I'm just suggesting the music may be not that good to justify the amounts of praise it gets.

But, even if I belittle myself, I hold nothing against Doublehex because words, even emotion in abstract form can hurt us. Now it does not excuse the very rude behavior and I could have responded in a much more "natural" way but since I had a couple of swell days beforehand and the thickest skin and tolerance for bullshit, I did not take it to heart. "Listen here you little..." would not serve anything other than makes us both feel like shit. I understand where its all coming from, ultimately another form of miscommunication (of which I will admit a little bit of contribution, I just noticed upon revision that from a certain angle, some words I carelessly choose could be interpreted as an insult on a bad day), I hope we learn from it and move on to better things.

Still, some gesture of reconciliation would help me be reliefed that my words didn't cut too deep and caused permanent damage, so that we can move on in good spirit.

But if you choose not to, then it's alright, I won't hold it against you. I still say all the world's luck to you Doublehex for finding music you deeply care about and if you chose not to participate I guess that's perhaps for the best, don't take it to heart. Love you, dude :)



And if there's something positive to say about the industry, I will say so, because there still can be some pleasant surprises found: Gods of Egypt on its own is decent, I guess Powells HTTYD2 is pretty neat as well and John Ottman's Jack the Giant Slayer has some good moments, and I guess La La Land is pretty good, and John Williams still writes Star Wars, what are you nuts!!!... but that is not what I'm talking about. On numerous occasion I've praised Powell for Chicken Run or HTTYD1+2 (at least moments of it). I'm not having any issues with those composers. I'm talking about the next generation, and I guess I should be clear that Giacchino, Brian Tyler and BearMcCreary are THE BEST OF THE BUNCH from that next generation, but that just shows how depressing the state of affairs really is...




On a related note, I see a game review listing "orchestral score" all the time as a positive. Now that is where I roll my eyes...

Orchestral music is just a buzzword, it really doesn't have any meaning or hold some sort of special snowflake gravitas. Ultimately its just music performed by 20+ musicians reading music from a piece of paper. Nothing more and nothing less. Its what's written on that piece of paper that counts and its all I'm criticizing. When I speak about Tyler what I really mean is his name on a piece of paper with music played from it. Orchestral music is not a genre, it's a medium, it's a tool to express yourself the very same way you could with just your own instrument.

tangotreats
05-28-2017, 07:49 PM
[removed to see what happens next]

srukkjk4jv
05-28-2017, 08:12 PM
Paul Intson The nut job

upload lien please !

PonyoBellanote
05-28-2017, 09:44 PM
That's what I'm trying to tell everyone here - that the "usual" people that comment the most in this thread, usually with humongous paragraphs of nothing but shit to fill their etilistic ego and to tell how MUCH they HATE whatever they are talking about that others usually like so much - how much they like one particular thing and only this particular thing, and other certains types of music don't fit with them. But no, I'm just the one here that's saying bullshit here, right? Just proves how one says "hey I don't like this" the other gives his points on why he doesn't likes it, and the other replies STILL with more "I don't like it, it's shit, and I'm ashamed you liked it, it's a fact it's shit." (Nobody said such a thing, I'm giving an exagerated example.)

Etilism, there's seriously NO better way to describe you two or three people. Those who stick to one thing and one thing only; those who usually are way too strict and opinionated and will shit on anything that doesn't fit their standards of what they think it's "good music." It's proven here anytime tangotreats goes on his usual rants of how much some people he hates are talentless hacks, and etc, etc.

I don't care how much YOU want to hate on me and what I think, but you can't deny me people here aren't etilist. Hell, most orchestra lovers are! Wanting to listen to nothing but pure orchestra, nothing else.

I can't say much about what I think about The Witcher 3 - I haven't listened to it in full detail. Only whatever I have listened from my dad's playthrough, and it sounds nice. Nothing really remarkable, as in, that stands out as the best videogame music, but it's still some nice melodies, works good with the game. It's not that huge piece of shit you make it sound like.

FrDougal9000
05-28-2017, 09:58 PM
Stop, Ponyo. Please.

Someone has just gone and acted way out of line, talking in a manner that shouldn't fly no matter where you go, and it's genuinely offended some folks. Whether you consider certain folks 'elitist' or not isn't the point. The point is to have an actual conversation with the other person, regardless of how vehemently you may disagree with them. If that conversation happens to come with long opinions that either person feels no reason in holding back on, then so be it. Resorting to foul language, accusations or name calling kills legitimate discussion and we end up in situations like this.

I understand if you think some people go too far in expressing their opinions, but now is not the time to call them out as being 'elitist'. Not when there is an air of uncomfortable tension hovering around a thread that, in the last nine months I've been lurking round here, have among the most constructive, welcoming places I can think of. Please refrain from accusations and the like until this whole mess has cleared up (no, I don't have any authority, but I shouldn't have to when asking a fellow poster to not kick the metaphorical hornet's nest).

tangotreats
05-28-2017, 10:58 PM
Ponyo, in the nicest possible way... if you hate this thread so much, and me in particular, why do you keep coming here and repeating the same tired mantra? Even though pretty much the EVERYONE HERE, regardless of what they like and don't like, unite in their condemnation of what you keep saying? I wish you would stop. Everybody else wishes you'd stop. The guy who went mad yesterday and caused all this trouble wishes you'd stop, and you're using the unpleasant atmosphere that created to push your agenda (that no-one wants to hear in the first place) yet again, in the worst possible taste.

Why don't you stop?

There's endless wonderfulness in this thread if you care to look for it. Sometimes you will have to endure opinions you don't agree with, and sometimes the conversation will diversify into more complex topics which, in order to be adequately explored, require the "walls of text" that you seem to hate so much. That is a good thing. If you don't care to look, or you can't cope with that - in the nicest possible way I ask you sincerely... why are you here?

Nobody ever learned anything by trying to stifle discussion. Nobody ever learned anything by surrounding themselves by people who agreed with them all the time. Nobody ever learned anything by understanding that alternative viewpoints exist but thinking that talking about them is a bad thing.

That's what I'm here for. I'm here to be educated, and to educate.

One of the things I valued about this thread was that it was possible to do the "bigger" stuff here, which would be unwelcome on other parts of the forum. It was an oasis of friendship in a sea of "give me the link and fuck off" threads where you could actually dig deep into the topic, spread a little knowledge, receive a little knowledge, and YES disagree and be negative from time to time without having someone jumping down your throat to call you names.

That is gone now, and you - representing a tiny minority in a group of people who understand and enjoy the thread for what it is - are one of the primary causes.

There is little reason for me to stay here, now.

PonyoBellanote
05-28-2017, 10:58 PM
What the hell do you people have against the word "etilist", acting like if it's an insult to your own mothers? There's nothing wrong with being etilists. It means you think you're better than anyone with what you listen to and are strict to one genre or style of music nonetheless. I didn't say anything bad, or insulted anyone. If you're offended it's not my fault. And I don't need to be silenced. I'm not even defending the other guy, he went a lil bit too personal, but anyone would. Not even insulting you people; just saying how you come across everytime you go making your twenty paragraph long rants.

I only come across to say this when I get too tired of it. Don't you worry, this will eventually end and everyone will move on with their lives. I don't hate anyone in particular; just some of the things you guys do. Hate is too much of a strong word and thing. My bad if I come across like it.

tangotreats
05-28-2017, 11:19 PM
I don't have a problem with the word "elitist" - I have a problem with being labelled - particularly when those labels are applied by people who don't know me, and particularly when those labels are inaccurate.

I am, as everybody is, acutely aware of the fact that you don't like the thread or the style of conversation that goes on inside it.

You have expressed your opinion and your thoughts are known and understood. Your constant expression of them - whether you intend to be insulting or offensive or not - DOES insult and offend, which creates negativity in a thread which has been remarkably free of negativity up until this point.

Please show that some respect, and stop. Most people are happy with the way the thread goes, and if at any point they're not they express that and we work out our differences. This is easier to do without the constant "threat" of you coming to tell us what a bunch of snobby morons we are for having conversations that extend beyond one sentence.

If you're ever in London I will buy you a drink and we can talk about music - then with any luck you will discover I'm not the ass you think I am.

PonyoBellanote
05-28-2017, 11:30 PM
I'm sorry but you're being highly over dramatic over it. IF you don't like it so much is as simple as ignoring me instead of moving on with the topic, and.. I dunno, just get yourself over how much this thread is becoming bad thanks to people like me. I get your intention, and I even agree with you, honestly. Yes, in almost all you said! I know the intention of this thread and most of the time is good, but I don't see how you have to be so melodramatic over it - this will end eventually and the thread will go back to its former glory of discussing orchestral music and you know it - this thread has had 725 pages already - there has been heated discussions, and they all ended and people moved on.. so why bother to call me out like that?

I don't hate the thread, sometimes there's some nice discussions here. I only hate when some here go on tangents about their hate to some artists, music or scores, and go on about it too passionately (okay, I can't blame you for that, I myself I am passionate too and highly opinionated too sometimes) but I guess I could just ignore it like I have been for a long while. Nothing against you people, nor the thread. Point being, I wanna end this bad feeling here, at least for my part. I never said what the other guy was doing was right; I was just agreeing to the etilist part. No, he insulted the guy personally when the other wasn't. I don't condone that. I know it will come unbelievable now after my behaviour and what I said, but I still want to say it; I apologize publicly for what I said and I would like (myself, at least) to move on with the topic of this thread.

In my part, I've already said what I wanted to say, I made my mind clear, and everyone knows what I think, very clearly now, so I'm gonna leave it here - in regards of that topic. I wouldn't want to contribute any further to this; and wouldn't want to keep continuing to look like an asshole. So, I wanna apologize. I should have worded my opinion much better. It almost feels good to talk in speeches like this; when there's something to say. No wonder you guys like to write paragraphs.. it feels good. I don't deny I've done it before in other threads.. :P

Moving on to the topic of the thread; there's a certain videogame music score that I've grown very fond of; that may not be the best of scores ever made for a game or movie in general but the first time I listened to it hit me personally very good; sadly I didn't feel the same level of feelings at following listenings, but I love it still, just as much. That is THE LAST GUARDIAN. While on the topic on disagreeing respectfully with people, I'm aware some of you didn't like this score as much as I do. You didn't like how it sounded a lot like Thomas Newman. And hell that's true! It does have some similarities. But doesn't Williams' Star Wars have similarities to the Planets classical music? The first time I listened to this game score, I said to myself, that what is presented in this music, is everything that makes my favourite score. What are you guys' opinion on it? What can you bring to the discussion?

FrDougal9000
05-28-2017, 11:43 PM
[I'D WRITTEN A FEW PARAGRAPHS ON MY ISSUE WITH THE 'ELITIST' PHARSING, AND WHERE I BELIEVE THE PROBLEM MIGHT LIE. BUT THEN PONYO APOLOGIZED FOR WHAT HE SAID. I REALLY DO APPRECIATE THAT. STILL, I WANT TO LEAVE THIS HERE, JUST ON THE OFF-CHANCE. I CAN AND WILL REMOVE THIS IF IT FEELS LIKE IT'S ADDING TO THE FLAMES, HOWEVER. PLEASE LET ME KNOW ASAP.]

Speaking only for myself, I don't like the word 'elitist' because I believe that it can kill legitimate discussion. Along with other words like 'arrogant' and 'snob', it compartmentalizes the other person's argument into an easily-understood, easily-ridiculed caricature that can be dismissed without much thought. In this case, the term 'elitist' brings to mind haughty fools who believe their opinion to be superior to everyone else simply because they themselves are supposedly superior to everyone else, even if their opinions are poorly thought out and their taste is questionable at best.*

*On that note, I don't believe anyone here genuinely considers their tastes to be better than others. At worst, some people can be really opinionated, but they still try their damnedest to understand others, accept their points of view and to be civil in any matter.

Words have meaning, even unintentional meanings, and to use them can result in your point being taken the wrong way. It's like using the term "g*y" to describe someone you find to be stupid or lame - you intend to use it as a shorthand for saying something's stupid or bad, but the term carries homophobic connotations that can make people think that YOU are homophobic, even though you're nothing of the sort. 'Elitist' is simply one of those terms that carries meaning beyond what you intend, and I believe that's way people like myself get annoyed at the term being used.

And I do believe that you never intended to insult anyone, that you're simply calling it like you see it, but here's the thing: even the best of intentions do not absolve you of your responsibilities. If a term you keep using bothers people to any degree, consider using a different term that doesn't carry the same implications, or simply don't bother making the point. In an online conversation comprising only of text, you have a ridiculous amount of leeway in how you can say something; what point do you make, how do you make point; with all the time in the world to make that point. You also have the leeway to change what you want to say at any point, and nobody will begrudge you that freedom. When writing this very post, I considered using certain words, terms or examples to get my point across, but I had the freedom to consider implications I would never intend to convey, and then decide to word it differently (hell, there's a good chance I still might have made that mistake).

The point I'm trying to make is that while you don't mean to insult anybody, there's a chance you will end up doing so by accident. The only thing to do from there is to understand where you went wrong, and then take steps to stop yourself from doing that again. It sucks, but it's just something you gotta do sometimes (and as someone who once made the dumb mistake of comparing the Mass Effect 3 ending controversy to HITLER, I know how important it is to be self-aware and improve yourself when making points to other people).

tangotreats
05-29-2017, 12:08 AM
Man alive! Who are you, and what have you done with Ponyo? ;)

I call you out because I see your posts as a lot more troublesome than I think you see them or intend them. Believe it or not, it's not easy for me to be here. I have Asperger's, social anxiety, and depression - it is sometimes not easy for me to express myself. I struggle in my daily life to be understood and to be heard above the clamouring sounds of everybody else for whom communication and social interaction seems to be second nature. Despite that, this thread has developed around me and has given me so much, and I like to think (I get messages fairly frequently telling me this) that I give back to it, in a variety of ways - whether that be by posting music, or engaging in discussions. I find your posts to be generally dismissive of the "bigger picture" of this thread, concentrating unfairly on the negative aspects - and I honestly don't know why you make them sometimes; the only logical assumption I can sometimes make is that you're deliberately making trouble... It is the equivalent of spending years of time and effort and money on your pet project, your car, fixing it, respraying it, upgrading it, spending weekend after weekend under the bonnet getting covered in grease, sometimes having successes, sometimes having failures, getting tired out, but ultimately feeling good about your achievements... just for your neighbour to randomly appear to spray-paint a cock and balls on the bonnet or kick your tyres in, and run off laughing.

Does that make sense?

Either way... from my perspective, THANK YOU and apology absolutely accepted. You see, the wall of text is fun sometimes... ;)


That is THE LAST GUARDIAN. While on the topic on disagreeing respectfully with people, I'm aware some of you didn't like this score as much as I do. You didn't like how it sounded a lot like Thomas Newman.

It definitely has a Newman vibe about it (sometimes a lot more than a vibe) but I personally didn't find that to be a negative. As for the score itself, I think I've gone a bit luke-warm on it, too. I really love the noise it makes (to paraphrase Sir Thomas Beecham) but I'm not quite sure about the substance underneath. That said, I'm playing the thing fairly often which has to be a good sign... I have a feeling it's going to be one of those scores I have a love/hate relationship with. Time will tell, I guess... :)


But doesn't Williams' Star Wars have similarities to the Planets classical music?

Absolutely, and a dozen other things too. It's the "done thing" in classical land, to pay homage to your inspirations and masters. I don't think anybody would argue that parts of Star Wars owe a lot to Holst... but equally, I don't think anybody would argue that it's not substantially Williams' composition. It's not a hack job of bits of The Planets joined together by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. It's a bloody superb and original score (I use the word "score" to refer to all of Williams' work in the Star Wars universe, not just the first score) in its own right which occasionally recalls sounds and styles established in the past. Holst, arguably, created the blueprint for the symphonic Sci-fi film score with The Planets - fifty years before anybody really figured out what he'd done... I don't have a single hint of a problem with Williams noting the influence it had over the genre. :)

[EDIT: Weird double-post removed]

The Zipper
05-29-2017, 12:08 AM
*Adds Ponyo to ignore list

Whoo, that was easy. Now I no longer have to read some guy's silly weekly rant about how typing more than one paragraph makes you a snooty asshole. I wonder why he hasn't done the same to the people who he seems to have a problem with so far in this thread?

PonyoBellanote
05-29-2017, 12:25 AM
*Adds Ponyo to ignore list

Whoo, that was easy. Now I no longer have to read some guy's silly weekly rant about how typing more than one paragraph makes you a snooty asshole. I wonder why he hasn't done the same to the people who he seems to have a problem with so far in this thread?

I am awfully sorry you haven't seen my quick change of mind in my post which funny enough also were a few paragraphs so that should tell you how much I hate them. I suggest you read them so you change your mind about me :)

---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------


Man alive! Who are you, and what have you done with Ponyo? ;)

Same man, just less raged and trying to get more into the situation and feelings of others. Happens sometimes; I fuck up, but after that I realize my mistake and promptly apologize.


I call you out because I see your posts as a lot more troublesome than I think you see them or intend them. Believe it or not, it's not easy for me to be here. I have Asperger's, social anxiety, and depression - it is sometimes not easy for me to express myself. I struggle in my daily life to be understood and to be heard above the clamouring sounds of everybody else for whom communication and social interaction seems to be second nature. Despite that, this thread has developed around me and has given me so much, and I like to think (I get messages fairly frequently telling me this) that I give back to it, in a variety of ways - whether that be by posting music, or engaging in discussions. I find your posts to be generally dismissive of the "bigger picture" of this thread, concentrating unfairly on the negative aspects - and I honestly don't know why you make them sometimes; the only logical assumption I can sometimes make is that you're deliberately making trouble... It is the equivalent of spending years of time and effort and money on your pet project, your car, fixing it, respraying it, upgrading it, spending weekend after weekend under the bonnet getting covered in grease, sometimes having successes, sometimes having failures, getting tired out, but ultimately feeling good about your achievements... just for your neighbour to randomly appear to spray-paint a cock and balls on the bonnet or kick your tyres in, and run off laughing.

Does that make sense?

Either way... from my perspective, THANK YOU and apology absolutely accepted. You see, the wall of text is fun sometimes... ;)

I understand your feelings now, I agree with you, and I am happy you accept my sincere apologies. Like, I see how you feel now, even more after reading that. And yes, when you DO have something to say, wall texting can be fun :P


It definitely has a Newman vibe about it (sometimes a lot more than a vibe) but I personally didn't find that to be a negative. As for the score itself, I think I've gone a bit luke-warm on it, too. I really love the noise it makes (to paraphrase Sir Thomas Beecham) but I'm not quite sure about the substance underneath. That said, I'm playing the thing fairly often which has to be a good sign... I have a feeling it's going to be one of those scores I have a love/hate relationship with. Time will tell, I guess... :)

I dunno, I really can't explain - it's just the first time I listened to it, it struck me REALLY HARD, I think I managed to tell my feelings post-listening here in this thread too, and they were deeply emotional, like... the first listen got me feeling. I really don't know what to say - I just love the melodies, how it sounds, the instruments, the orchestration. I can only describe to say, to me it sounds beautiful, perfectly fitting with the atmosphere of the game while also sounding cinematic, and the last of all; it really has EVERYTHING I love about a score. I'm really glad you're opening up to it, it makes me happy to see others enjoying it, too. I, for one, haven't listened to it in a while - my right ear has been clogged a bit for a while, I don't know why, and I'm saving myself to listen to the full album again after a while to get a similar experience to the first time, to savour it with delight. I did tell you I got the album finally from Japan, right? Along with the collector's edition of the game for half the price. That's how much I love it! Now I just have to wait years for me to have a PS4 and play it! :P I also got Shin Chan, I can't wait to get a desk for my dad's desktop and rip it to share it with you guys.


Absolutely, and a dozen other things too. It's the "done thing" in classical land, to pay homage to your inspirations and masters. I don't think anybody would argue that parts of Star Wars owe a lot to Holst... but equally, I don't think anybody would argue that it's not substantially Williams' composition. It's not a hack job of bits of The Planets joined together by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. It's a bloody superb and original score (I use the word "score" to refer to all of Williams' work in the Star Wars universe, not just the first score) in its own right which occasionally recalls sounds and styles established in the past. Holst, arguably, created the blueprint for the symphonic Sci-fi film score with The Planets - fifty years before anybody really figured out what he'd done... I don't have a single hint of a problem with Williams noting the influence it had over the genre. :)

That's a very good point! I was just using it as an arguments for those who prefer original sounding scores (which I agree) and would offer the "sounds too much like Newman" as an argument to dislike the score, and I am like, is that bad as long as the music is good? :)

Vinphonic
05-29-2017, 12:32 AM
I think Ponyo, you are mostly misguided in your beliefs because if you would actually read those insane paragraphs with an open mind you wouldn't jump to conclusions so fast. If anything hearing classic Thomas Newman in a (Japanese, duh) video game score was not in anyway brought up by anyone as belittlement. In fact it was the contrary. I also find it hilarious that after I quite clearly stated Orchestral music is not the be all end all of music (excluding the millions of examples of non-orchestral music I posted just a few moments ago), you then accuse us of being orchestra-only! If that is not working against your argument, I don't know what else does?! I think this all comes down to miscommunication we have between one another. As FrDougal9000 pointed out, because its all text, there's always room for misinterpretation and unfortunate falling outs but I believe that could be avoided if we really don't jump to conclusions too fast or honestly read one another.

EDIT: Wow, this thread moves fast sometimes: but I'm glad we got it sorted out on that front and I'm glad you opened your heart a bit Ponyo :)



And on to better things: I think it's only appropriate to bring this thread back on track, with the most perfect reconciliation music I can think of at the moment:




The Legacy of Japan

Toshiyuki Watanabe

Concert and Film Selection



PW:MoonWalker (https://anon.click/zoqam34)


Toshiyuki Watanabe is Hollywood Silver Age Film music incarnate. His greatest personal influence is old Disney and John Williams and both can be found aplenty in his work, in addition to Alan Silvestri and Friends. Perhaps not the most technical impressive composer but certainly among the most touching.

The first three albums as well as “Hymn of the Forest and the Earth” as well as “Triforce of the Gods” show Watanabe as a symphonic poet the most, starting with his fantastic compositions and arrangements for Sailor Moon, still one of my all-time symphonic albums from Japan, a glorious poem of brass fanfares and romantic dances.

Roman Empire is another masterpiece, perhaps his most mature work to date, a Japanese stunning musical tribute to the Mediterranean’s most famous empire, with a beautiful fusion of ancient vocals, guitar and orchestra, taking us through a musical journey from its rise to fall. And here's Watanabe conducting his masterpiece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL_ZeBU-Hsc

Toshiie To Matsu has everything I love about NHK Taiga Dramas: Killer theme, classical gestures and beautiful romance. Watanabe goes more classical than usual for this one and it has certainly concerto characteristics in parts. Great stuff.


Now we come to the stuff you’re all here for, I’ve put hours of sweat and tears into it but I completely remastered Watanabes three fantastic Silver Age SciFI rides to professional Hollywood sound standard. I think you will find them now even more thrilling to listen to than before.

Back to 1985 (http://picosong.com/7w7g)

Space Travelers has everything! There’s Silvestri, Goldsmith, Williams… almost no one gets spared and all in a fantastic, leitmotif-driven SciFi ride. Must-have for any serious film music collector.

Majestic Prince is a theme park ride full of Williams and developed and revised ideas from previous efforts for the Mothra Trilogy. Moments like “Last Stand” or “Reinforcements” make it one of the best SciFi scores in recent memory.

Space Brothers is an incredibly pure and uplifting Americanaesque score and among the most human musical tribute to achieve your dreams. It has moments in it, that combined with the show’s very best episodes, achieves a level of drama and emotion, millions of CGI dollars and explosions can’t achieve. “Beauty of the Stars” shows the very best aspects of Watanabe’s romantic side. I personally can’t wait for the shows continuation. One of the most inspirational TV scores ever created.


Agatha Christie no Meitantei Poirot to Marple is a precursor to Space Brothers, but no less lovely with a bit more classical touch (but when its set in London that’s to be expected). Pieces like Epilogue are just sublime.

Ohisama is a classical inspired Silver Age score for TV and full of delightful dances and beautiful romantic intermezzos. In the best way a Silver Age romantic score.

Mori Monogatari does not disappoint as an NHK drama and is basically a conplementary piece to Roman Empire and a beautiful war drama. But the action is not exactly what you expect, it’s in the style of his early career, which is definitely worth a look.

Speaking of his earky career, his three Mothra score are basically the prototype for his later rides and full of fantastic melodies and Hollywood adventure action.


The Best of Toshiyuki Watanabe ~Melodies~ is a compilation from his concert, television and film work and a must have for any musicians. It’s just so full of the very essence of music, demonstrating you don’t need to apply the most complex technical skills to make your music soar. I would say every soundtrack featured here is worth checking out. His Celebration Overture is not only a loveletter to John Williams but a brilliant composition in its own right.

His Voice of Heaven is a much quieter but no less effecting, beautiful outburst of melody and a compilation from his vast NHK work.


So that about concludes it and after three years of conception and one and a half years of sharing, my Legacy project is very close to the finishing line.

As always, I hope you have a blast with the music and always remember We Are All Shining Divine Sparks.

PonyoBellanote
05-29-2017, 01:14 AM
I like this composer. There's a certain theme from his "Agatha Christie" anime score that I really REALLY like a lot.

I need to listen more from him, thank you.

streichorchester
05-29-2017, 02:10 AM
It's crazy how much of an influence Silvestri is on a lot of Japanese composers. These two tracks from Code Geass always amuse me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO_4HDvQ4BQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6RaNHy4WqI

ladatree
05-29-2017, 10:48 AM
Is it Megumi no Daigo? I've been looking for that one for a while.
I once saw it on Amazon for less than $10 and regret not buying it. Only later did I learn that it's a rare CD.

Unfortunately not no, it would be nice though. so Would AWOL (which you can download of Xiami but you have to sign up or some shit and I'm too lazy for that) it's old though.

And does anyone here have the soundtrack to sin The Movie by Masamichi Amano? (The movie sucks , especially the editing)

Also I seem like to the people that you guys don't like (Sawano, Yokoyama, Legendoor people) but such is life.

Vinphonic
05-29-2017, 12:24 PM
And does anyone here have the soundtrack to sin The Movie by Masamichi Amano? (The movie sucks , especially the editing)

Thread 57893

PW is Legacy (for all collections with no PW specified)

And I also "like" some stuff from Sawano and Yokoyama. I actually really like some of his songs from Aldnoah and Seraph, as a pop artists he's quite good but as a soundtrack composer on the other hand... If anything Yokoyama excels at writing raunchy quirky music but so far the stuff from him I would call actually good can be found in Queen's Blade (he also rick-rolled in this one, and that is worthy of notice if nothing else :D).


I'm slowly putting the links back up in this thread as everything has been banned one time except all the stuff exclusivly shared in here. I believe the enigma of this thread saves us from most troubles.
I also am considering to make a "jumping point" here soon with an easy keyword for search purposes. Because last time I shared something like the Sawada collection outside it was instantly reported :0 (so I will let my stuff stay in here, for the better, I've tried to make it more available on other sites but its not been very successful, so I reckon the people who really haven't forgotten what film/neoclassical/or just music can be and are open-minded to expand their horizon are already here, anyway)


@Herr Salat: Well, seems like MICHIRU being a Yoko Kanno fangirl is now officialy confirmed :P It's also really great to know Yoko Kanno is sort of an idol among the ladies :D

@streich: Now that one of the most entertaining anime trainwrecks continues... I wonder how many references they will put in this time. Just keep in mind Hitomi Kuroishi did the Silvestri parts and the last major score from Kotaro Nakagawa was Eric Serra and Elmer Bernstein. Bets are on :D

The Zipper
05-29-2017, 04:23 PM
Also I seem like to the people that you guys don't like (Sawano, Yokoyama, Legendoor people) but such is life.
Nothing wrong with that! What I said before was more of a sweeping statement about Sawano's general fanbase rather than the man himself, even though I've grown to vehemently dislike his music these past couple of years, and this is coming from a guy who even defends Zimmer from time to time.

On a somewhat related note, it's pretty clear who the most popular composers are just by glancing at how many followers they have on Twitter. Sawano has 100,000 followers while Kajiura has 120,000. Iwasaki and Yokoyama have less than 8,000. Wada has less than 2,000. And Michiru Sato has less than 1,000.

evilwurst
05-29-2017, 07:01 PM
Good 'ol Kotaro Nakagawa. He's one of that group of composers I can't quite be objective about; where I can never say for sure whether the parts I like are nutrition or junk food, just that a bunch of it was over-the-top fun and I smiled during the scenes it played and now I can't be unbiased about it because I associate that style with fun. I enjoyed the hell out of Code Geass and Zettai Karen Children and the music definitely contributed to that. But I can't verbally explain it beyond an awkward "no one else does that thing he does."

To some extent, I put Kajiura in that same group. That bouncy videogamey thing she's been doing since at least way back in hack sign. No one else does that thing she does.

Sawano disappoints me because my first encounter with him was Gigantic Formula. I felt like the show itself was insultingly trashy and dropped it quick, but the music was this gorgeous melodic stuff I looked forward to hearing more of. And there was some more of that in Gundam Unicorn. And then everything else I've heard him in hasn't had the magic. I feel like most of the praise he gets now is only associative - new fans who liked one anime or another and haven't seen much else yet, maybe? - because those ended up being big hits in the West and acted as gateway anime for many new fans. But for me, as I tried those shows, the music seemed so forgettable; yes, there was action music where there was supposed to be action music, but I remember the scene but not the music; and when I try listening to the soundtrack in isolation later, it still isn't memorable; and I gave it multiple tries, because, dammit, Gigantic Formula and Unicorn. I can listen to Nakagawa combat jazz and Kajiura gameybounce in isolation, from soundtracks I haven't seen the anime for, and enjoy it, but I get nothing from modern Sawano.

We have a lot of fun talking smack about Giacchino here, but I do get about four minutes of "hey, this part is pretty good" out of most of his movies. He didn't live up to his early potential, but I still get that four minutes out of every two hours. C'mon, Sawano, you get up to four hours from a twelve episode anime, shouldn't there be eight minutes of stuff at Gigantic Formula's level in there? I would cut him a lot more slack if he was doing that.

The Zipper
05-29-2017, 07:41 PM
The impression I get with Sawano is that he started out being something like a slightly more melodic modern Zimmer, especially with Unicorn, but as time went by with shows like Guilty Crown and Attack on Titan, he started focusing more on badly sung Engrish pop music, exactly the kind you hear nowadays on the radio. His name has now become associated with J-Rock and he is now considered the Linkin Park of Japan. And because that style is very successful and lucrative, he hasn't bothered to change his ways ever since.

I really like this piece from all of Sawano's recent (post Unicorn) work though, as an ethnic rock song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Ka0WFqftA

Vinphonic
05-29-2017, 08:44 PM
I think with regards to Nakagawa it's a little bit of both. But who am I to talk who once had this sig thinking his music to be the wonkiest shit ever (part of me still does):
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170529/wgg2w745.gif (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnF_jdrWcKk)

I really really like his style.

And he throws some nice nostalgia bones out of left field sometimes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOFL-aioxFI&list=PLwhhprTdWbG4wnPSzJvRIrIFtWeq1ZUGn&index=8 (I wonder if they will record the second season in Hollywood again)

streichorchester
05-30-2017, 12:53 AM
Now that one of the most entertaining anime trainwrecks continues... I wonder how many references they will put in this time. Just keep in mind Hitomi Kuroishi did the Silvestri parts and the last major score from Kotaro Nakagawa was Eric Serra and Elmer Bernstein. Bets are on :D
That makes sense given that massive reference to The Abyss in Last Exile. Do composers in Japan line up around the block and camp out in tents when a Silvestri soundtrack drops?
Some of the more obscure references are Yoko Kanno referencing Silvestri's Flight of the Navigator in Please Save My Earth (OST 1 Track 17) and Contact in Terror in Resonance (Walt). I could go on...

Vinphonic
05-30-2017, 10:26 AM
Contact in Terror in Resonance (Walt)

Holy Shit, I never noticed that!


Contact is such a great score... I wonder where he is now? The man who wrote Back to the Future, Predator, Roger Rabbit, Forrest Gump, Mummy Returns, Eraser, Abyss and Contact? The man who responded to the question on "how to get gud?" with "study counterpoint everyday and play some Mozart!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hGhwtuajJM

I can only let it not bother me because he has already wrote his heart out and has been given the highest honor a classical (self-)trained composer can have and to conduct in Vienna must have been the highest honor for him.

He has given us so much great scores that thankfully will be studied by the Japanese for generations to come.
I think I briefly touched upon their education system but what I really mean is that they make no distinction between classical music and film music. Williams, Silvestri and Horner will be teached at college the very same way as Bach, Mozart and Mahler. There's no "elitism" at all (I know, the irony :D), no snobish distinction between real music and fake music, just an appreciation for GOOD music, regardless where it comes from. It also helps generations of Japanese composers watched the respective movies and fell in love with it. Yugo Kanno's proteg� adores Saving Private Ryan and therefore discovered Born on the Fourth of July (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxiot2Q7Uso) and now wants to be like Williams one day. We now have a James Horner candidate as well. Keiji Inai loves Michael Kamen, Michiru Oshima is pretty much Rozsa, Iwasaki is Herrmann and Zimmer in one person, and I could go on and on to find the Japanese equivalent to almost every past Hollywood composer that is now working in the business or keeps on entering it, if I would look hard enough.


And you know... this is the country that had/still has Jerry Goldsmith as the highest honorary member of the Japanese Composer and Arranger Association. A country that desperately wanted to have Ennio Morricone for their nation's most respected TV series. A country that established a giant professional symphony orchestra for the only purpose of playing Film music at concerts (and giving John Williams a birthday serenade). I think its safe to say the Film Music we love will live on :)

At least I believe we can play this fun game of "spot the reference" for a few decades more ;)





EDIT: I also revised my previous posts that caused quite a commotion to illustrate my points as clear as possible and to finally close the book on certain things. If I ever bring it up again, point me here, were I will slap myself

"You said it a bazillion times! it was already brilliantly summarized by a combined rant of yourself, Tango, streich and Mike Verta and for the final fatherfucking time in May (by yourself), you said it for over six years, online and irl, people either ignore or accept it by now, better spent your energy on the things you love and want to make available to a group of friends and like-minded fellows"

FrDougal9000
05-30-2017, 04:17 PM
I ended catching wind of a pretty cool sounding Kickstarter, if y'all want to look into it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1636910846/the-tomb-raider-suite

Last December, the Tomb Raider Suite, a 90 minute orchestral suite dedicated to Nathan McCree's fantastic music for Tomb Raider I, II and III, made its World Premiere, performed live by the Royal Philharmonic Concert Orchestra and the City of London Choir, and conducted by Robert Ziegler. Attended by over 2,000 fans, the suite received three standing ovations and was considered to be a fine way to celebrate the series' 20th anniversary. And now, Nathan McCree has begun a Kickstarter to help fund a studio recording of the suite, with it being done at the renowned Abbey Road studio.

The music, which has already been orchestrated, copied and printed, is currently planned to be recorded in August and released worldwide in November. But to afford the cost of a 76-piece orchestra, a 20-voice choir and a world class conductor to record 90 minutes worth of music, along with a top engineer to mix and master afterwards, they need �160,000. The project has currently reached �43,380, with 25 days still to go. If stretch goals are reached, there are plans to increase the size of the brass and woodwind sections and choir, along with record the synthesized version of the suite, and maybe even remaster and release the original soundtracks for I, II and III.

Speaking as someone who loved the original games' music, and was even inspired to start playing piano by trying to play the first game's title screen theme (which lead to me becoming a composer), I feel it's only right to try and spread the word on this project. Check it out, and contribute to it if you want!

Sirusjr
05-30-2017, 05:01 PM
Ah well love to see so much discussion. I'm just now getting to that Monster Strike Symphony from the previous page. Not going to spend my energy going through the back and forths here. It is like reading my clients' bickering over their children sometimes. I don't see the point in people going on and on about the state of music. It has been said to death and we all know what people would prefer if they could have it.

The Zipper
05-30-2017, 06:49 PM
I dunno if you guys have seen this before, but here's a radio interview with Hirano:

http://www.jpopexchange.net/Yoshihisa_Hirano_radio.htm

It's fairly thorough, he talks about his writing process and people who inspired him. Surprisingly his love of music started with jazz.

Herr Salat
05-31-2017, 12:12 AM
Back in 2013 when Hirano was going to be on that show, the biggest? Hirano-head refused listening to it. I mean... tangotreats' old posts combined about Hirano's work is a 'must be this tall' warning for anyone else planning to write about it.


I must confess, that I'm not going to listen to the interview. I have a feeling it would make me mad. The conversation is unlikely to begin with "Mr Hirano, you are without a doubt one of the finest living composers of orchestral music, with a completely unique sense of melody and harmony, and a flawless orchestration technique. You consistently compose music of consummate quality - music that functions not only as superlative film scores but as standalone concert compositions. Your work elevates even the most mundane TV show to a position of artistic greatness. Your body of work has all the hallmarks of genius, and it is my life's deepest and most sincere honour to be talking with you, sir."

And, if they don't say that... or at least some of that... then they'll be doing the guy a grave dishonour...

I think I liked that interview back then. But now I would wish for interview/discussion/retrospective between the subject and a critic/fellow composer. Offering those kinds of insights that would be catnip, especially for friends of this thread. Or a post from the composer in this thread... Like that one time streichorchester got Valtonen himself revealing his notes (Thread 57893) (Not gonna happen with Japanese composers, though / Never say never?)...

That Red Bull Music Academy interview with Kanno was good for the general audience, but still too softball for some. Plus, I would argue, there's more fun/stories/insight from other genre experts (https://vimeo.com/28628252).

<Tangent> Last time we talked about canon (Thread 57893), I mentioned the Beatles. With 'Sgt. Pepper' getting re-released, I liked this article on that album and what it means for newer listeners engaging with something hailed as the 'Greatest of All Time':

��Sgt. Pepper� Is the Greatest Album Ever � Unless You Don�t Think So (https://melmagazine.com/sgt-pepper-is-the-greatest-album-ever-unless-you-don-t-think-so-f546a8a6b3d6)�, by Tim Grierson

<hr>


Composed by
VLADIMIR SOMMER
ANTIGONE
Overture to the Tragedy of Sophocles

Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, Mariss Jansons (cond.)
Live perfromance from 2017 at the Philharmonie de Paris



I caught this on TV, missing the beginning. Re-listening to it again, I'm not sure what it was that this not often performed work made so engaging. It's pretty heavy but those quieter moments are pretty good, I think. The only recordings available are from 60 years ago, so this will do for the meantime.

The full video includes a performance of Mahler's 'Kindertotenlieder' (not included here /ducks for cover) but it omits the performance of Rachmaninov's 'Symphonic Dances'.

Source: Edited 720p video (Lossy AAC audio) from BR Mediathek
MKV: https://anon.click/soceh70
(MediaFire Behind Capcha)

<hr>

Composed by
THOMAS AD�S
TEVOT

Berlin Philharmonic, Simon Rattle (cond.)




(Star Trek II) was a movie that was not made to smash the box office, cater to all audiences, sell millions of soundtrack CDs, etc. It was a niche movie. Even Star Wars was never expected to be the culture-changer it was (Lucas bet Spielberg that Close Encounters would be the bigger success.) Horner was a former classical guy, learned in the ways of Prokofiev and Mahler, hired to be the next Jerry Goldsmith. Of course he'd knock it out of the park. Now they don't really hire classical guys anymore, which sucks, because I think Thomas Ades would be a great film composer. Just listen to Tevot. This would be an insane sci-fi soundtrack!

Source: Qobuz (Original 2010 CD release by EMI Classics)
FLAC: https://anon.click/kozuv15
(MediaFire Behind Capcha)

TazerMonkey
05-31-2017, 02:35 AM
The full video includes a performance of Mahler's 'Kindertotenlieder' (not included here /ducks for cover)

Ah, good ol' Gustav. Nothing like an evening's light entertainment featuring "Songs on the Death of Children."

streichorchester
05-31-2017, 02:43 AM
Mahler, what a scrub. Talk about borrowing from other composers. The Symphony No. 1 quotes Hans Rott's E Major Symphony numerous times, the 6th quotes Liszt, the 7th basically steals Alexander Courage's Star Trek theme, etc.

The Zipper
05-31-2017, 05:11 AM
Back in 2013 when Hirano was going to be on that show, the biggest? Hirano-head refused listening to it. I mean... tangotreats' old posts combined about Hirano's work is a 'must be this tall' warning for anyone else planning to write about it.

I think I liked that interview back then. But now I would wish for interview/discussion/retrospective between the subject and a critic/fellow composer. Offering those kinds of insights that would be catnip, especially for friends of this thread.Not surprised that you beat me to it years ago, but why did you delete it? Anyway, beggars can't be choosers, especially when it comes to information about Japanese composers. Personally, I think this interview came out decently. It's not the most in-depth, but it gives us a good idea of who Hirano is and what his inspirations are from his own lips. It's better than the norm when it comes to these types of interviews. Remember those Yoko Kanno ones? That is what I consider bottom of the barrel standard, when the composer in question isn't even asked music-related questions. In-depth interviews with musically knowledgeable interviewers rarely ever happened with the Golden or Silver Age composers, so seeing such a thing pop up and in English to boot for one of the more obscure Japanese composers is almost impossible.

As an Iwasaki fan I've already dug out dozens of interviews and blog entries about him- almost none of which are in English. But I am not silly enough to expect others to commit to the same level of research if they are not as passionate. This interview will do nothing for Hirano addicts, but it's still exceptionally valuable as far as being an informative piece. Dry, yes. But it tells you far more about who Hirano is as a composer and less about why he thinks Jesus is handsome. And hey, at least he HAS an interview, which is far more than I can say for many of my other favorite composers. Not sharing information because it's "not worthy of the composer's stature and skill" is far more of an "elitest" thing to do than any other of the nonsensical usages of that word so far in this thread.

ladatree
05-31-2017, 12:19 PM
http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthrea...cy#post3402016

PW is Legacy (for all collections with no PW specified)

Sounds silly but do you have Sin in MP3? Only 'cause if I like any of them I can put them on my phone or on a USB and play while driving.
I also like Tatsuya Kato and all them as well.

Yugo Kanno's doing a fantasy show by the Record of Lodoss War Guy in January next year.

Vinphonic
05-31-2017, 12:44 PM
You have no idea how much nostalgia you evoke right now... anyway foobar and lame.exe is your friend (since I don't convert to mp3 unless I post in this thread) ;)

EDIT: Don't need Lame extra no more, it's now free: http://www.foobar2000.org/encoderpack

And if your car player can't play flac, you should switch asap!

Tatsuya Kato is a disappointing waste of potential everytime, and SukaSuka is the most offensive so far, however, I can't deny that the few minutes of meat that can be found in his scores are pretty much gold, and SukaSuka is the best case so far ;)
And even his usually wacky orchestral hybrids are a good step above Yokoyama. But since I want to be more clear in what I say, he has every ingridient to be pretty damn great and his music is by no means bad, hell I like it for the most part but his Nagato Yuki-chan and recent scores are evidence enough that he could be so much more. He has the potential to do great things but only throws us a few bones: "I bet you would like 60 minutes of Zogilia Guards hmmm... well guess what, ain't happening, suckers!" I hope he changes his mind one day.


Yugo Kanno: Well, talk about a composer bleeding out, that amount of projects can't be good for your health. I also think his prolificness was a mistake. He should have taken a time-out or he will be ending up like Mitsuda and almost die... Anyway I hope he will have a good few months of free time before he starts on this one. Blame is quite alright for a modern electronic action score but I feel signs of burning out appearing.



@Zipper: I find it interesting that he has the same mindset as Tanaka, both see music (pitch, chords) as colors and therefore refer to themselves more like painters than music makers... but isn' that the ideal for a composer anyway, to paint the Sistine Chapel in music? Goldsmith literally did it in "The Artist Who Did Not Want To Paint" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vliz5sl9GtA)



EDIT: Also wanted to mention (before a little distraction happened) that I'm really honored and all but since I did not win any money, maybe I should call my lawyer :D :D :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Ce1q5SMiE#t=3m34s (21-05-2017)




And to further illustrate what Hollywood is missing and what old films until the early 2000s had in spades and what is the primary reason that draws me to Japan, which has what I want aplenty, is pure unashamed emotion.

Take one of my favorite anime episodes ever made (scorewise): Rage of Bahamut: Episode 10.
From start to finish it is so perfectly scored full of energy and passion (and some score cue versions used here are not on the ost)

But I could kiss the director for this scene alone: EVERYTHING fades, no voice, no sound, no special effects, JUST THE MUSIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY-q_JWbqXo#t=16m30s


So much class and emotion I simply don't feel anymore in movies... and all for an advertisment for a mobile game. Wonderful. Also note that this is not the blu-ray version, which looks miles better.
This is what I mean when I praise a Japanese company like Cygames. There's no board meeting taking the safe route. The whole Bahamut Genesis project is anything but a safe bet in the Japanese market.
The whole show is pretty much a homage to classic Hollywood and iconic film scenes (the first episode begins with a cross of Mask of Zorro and Dead Men's Chest).

This continues with Virgin Soul, as the series starts like any classic adventure film (bad guy invades holy ground and steals object X).
And the score follows suite. Nina's (The dragon girl) theme is basically the romantic theme from How to Train your Dragon, as a musical wink.
Combine that with a Magnificent Seven vibe I believe the first episodes are building up too and that Temple of Doom minecart chase in the preview and we have here a score that can very well turn out to be the best film score of 2017

tangotreats
05-31-2017, 02:40 PM
Well, I caved in and listened to the interview - it wasn't QUITE as bad as I was expecting, but still... Hirano's English is awfully good but very American-inflected - and it somehow seems to get worse as the interview progresses! The interviewer is simply horrific. Doing that interview would've been a genuine honour and a pleasure for me - to see that opportunity squandered by someone who has no idea that he's talking to a modern genius. The great tidbits of information revealed were DESPITE the interviewer, not because of him - who knew Hirano was a Synesthesic? Now it's known, it makes a helluva lot of sense, listening to the apparent ease and dexterity with which he handles an orchestra...

It makes me still more upset at the recent turns his career has taken.

Vinphonic
05-31-2017, 04:14 PM



Guess who's not dead :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0-qP7Op-fo


He recently released an essay on his blog about the challenges we face as musicians in the 21st Century, I hope somebody is kind enough to offer a "correct" translation: Katsuro Tajima - What is a musician? (http://katsuromusic.blogspot.de/2017/05/no31.html)

The Zipper
05-31-2017, 05:31 PM
The interviewer is simply horrific. Doing that interview would've been a genuine honour and a pleasure for me - to see that opportunity squandered by someone who has no idea that he's talking to a modern genius.Yeah, the interviewer is just a robot spitting out questions instead of really engaging in the conversation. But at least Hirano was kind enough to talk about his music, which like I said before still makes it a giant leap over that Kanno interview, where the interviewer did not help by asking unrelated cutesy questions despite being more engaged with the conversation. Still, Hirano seems like an awfully nice guy, to go into detail about his music like that despite dealing with an uninterested bot reviewer shows that he has quite a bit of decency as a person.

Meanwhile, at Iwasaki's disastrous "interview" while he was in New York a few months ago, albeit a bit paraphrased...


Q: What inspired you to start out composing for Kenshin? Was there anything about the work that drew you in?
Iwasaki: The money.
Q: What is your favorite work out of all your soundtracks?
Iwasaki: Whatever I'm currently working on (Stray Dogs at the time).
Q: What would you say for up and coming composers who want to work in the field of TV and Anime?
A: Don't become a composer unless you can work in a medium that gives you CONTROL.

*while most of his answers are rather facetious, the last is one that he actually seems to be very serious about (https://twitter.com/taque68/status/246165140511289344)

---------- Post added at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------


@Zipper: I find it interesting that he has the same mindset as Tanaka, both see music (pitch, chords) as colors and therefore refer to themselves more like painters than music makers... but isn' that the ideal for a composer anyway, to paint the Sistine Chapel in music?[/URL]I think that any composer who truly sees music as nothing more than just music probably won't be able to find much passion for it. Still, I've heard similar answers from people like Tyler Bates in interviews before, and unfortunately that doesn't show in their music.

Tanaka is amazing as both a composer and a person. To go on this long as an anime/game composer while still retaining this much optimism and friendliness is something that not many composers are able to do. He deserves every bit of respect he's getting nowadays from both musicians and directors.

Vinphonic
05-31-2017, 07:14 PM
HOLY SHIT, TAJIMA




Katsuro Tajima
The Warsaw National Philharmonic Orchestra and Chorus

DEADSTORM PIRATES





PW: Drifters4D (https://anon.click/qafuz33)

Sample (http://picosong.com/7k6a)


Never stop Japan. But seriously, why do so many pieces from Katamari show up? Did Tajima record two hours of music and then they used it on various console and arcade games?

streichorchester
05-31-2017, 10:04 PM
Sample (http://picosong.com/7k6a)

This is pretty good.

Vinphonic
05-31-2017, 10:18 PM
Wait till you get to "Vocalise" ;)

BladeLight52
06-01-2017, 12:12 AM
Ah Mr Toshiyuki Watanabe. My third favorite anime composer behind Kohei Tanaka and Toshihiko Sahashi.

I like his scores for Vifam, The Three-Eyed One, Fighbird, Devilman Lady, and GoGoV.

PieEater3000!
06-01-2017, 02:29 AM
Ah Mr Toshiyuki Watanabe. My third favorite anime composer behind Kohei Tanaka and Toshihiko Sahashi.

I like his scores for Vifam, The Three-Eyed One, Fighbird, Devilman Lady, and GoGoV.

Don't forget his Rebirth of Mothra scores, in addition to Space Brothers. Pure gold, all of them, especially the 2nd and third Mothra scores. My favorite tracks in particular are Princess Yuna's Theme from Rebirth of Mothra 2, and Cretaceous Period Battle Part 1 from Mothra 3.

streichorchester
06-01-2017, 02:36 AM
Vocalise is great, but my favourite tracks would have to be Dance of Curse (wish it were longer), Distress Selection (this could easily be a concert piece), Stizzoso (best track), and Dimmi Amor. Counterattack is also good and sorta Prokofiev-esque.

If anything the style reminds me of Havergal Brian. There isn't a lot of thematic or motivic cohesion, but it still moves seamlessly from one vignette to another. It has this big sound with all instruments getting equal play time. One minor criticism is I noticed a lack of piccolo and harp. Compare with Yoko Kanno's orchestrations, especially in Aquarion, where the piccolo goes kind of nuts.

tangotreats
06-01-2017, 09:54 AM
I don't have Katamari available to compare to, but I'm 99.999% sure these are the same recordings. What gives? How much of this is original? Why would they have a Warsaw session for the actual game and then throw in substantial chunks from older Tajima scores? Did they not have enough money for Warsaw so they had no choice but to fill in the gaps with bits of Katamari? Would they really go all the way to Warsaw and record half a score? Or did Tajima simply say "Hey, this is good music, it's already recorded, why not use it again?"

Why would a project be deemed important enough to get a Warsaw score in the first place, and then get so chronically short-changed on recording time?

From this perspective, the lack of cohesion works in its favour - each piece, as an unconnected episode, can be mixed and matched with other pieces written in the same way, without massively drawing attention. Nobody's going to say "Hey, that's the Katamari theme, what's it doing in Deadstorm???" - because each cue plays like pure music, not threaded together as a part of a larger narrative.

There's crappy synthesised cues in there, as well... suggesting that it wasn't a case of running out of money but a conscious decision...

So many unanswered questions. OH JAPAN, WHY YOU SO CONFUSING???

The Zipper
06-02-2017, 05:41 AM
Meanwhile, in LA:

https://twitter.com/m_giacchino/status/865664095084662785

tangotreats
06-02-2017, 10:17 AM
That arrangement is the kind of thing we would've done when we were 12 years old and playing with a sample library for the first time and just discovered the tremolo patch. We would've played it back a few times, thought it was cool, then got bored of it within a couple of days and done something else.

The entire combined work of the best regularly-working mainstream Hollywood composer outclassed by 30 seconds of a fifty year-old melody written for a shitty children's TV show by a forgotten composer whose Wikipedia article states nothing more than where he was born, where he died, and that he wrote the Spider-man song and a few minutes of music in Kubrick's Lolita.

Though it comes repetitive to say so, I feel for every last person in that orchestra.

Vinphonic
06-02-2017, 10:55 AM
That tune would work far better as a Jazz-infused arrangement (and call me crazy but I'm 99% sure a Japanese composer already did that, I swear I heard it somewhere), but the problem is obvious.
Actually, that whole Spiderman project screams for Tiger&Bunny but since someone hasn't done Silvestri's homework assignment...



Giacchino: I'm a Star Wars nerd!!! And Jerry Goldsmith lover!!!

Yeah I can see that but frankly I just don't hear it in your music, unless I go back to the early 2000s where Simonec did the busywork (isn't that weird?), and you know you work in the same room he did...


Sawada: I'm a Star Wars nerd!!! And I love Jerry Goldsmith!

I can not varify it visually my friend but I sure as hell can hear it in your music! Keep on speederbiking!






But still, the thought what we COULD HAVE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBnFzz9vtOY#t=1m38s

PonyoBellanote
06-02-2017, 11:53 AM
Though it comes repetitive to say so, I feel for every last person in that orchestra.

They don't seem to care about that, in the video they are all playing normally, not showing sadness or remorse.

Nonetheless, don't worry, this is just for the Marvel Fanfare (hopefully.) though I'd agree this "orchestral" arrangment of the SPIDERMAN theme is the most basic of basics.

Vinphonic
06-02-2017, 05:31 PM
Hayato Matsuo
The Warsaw National Philharmonic Orchestra
Drifters: Symphonic War



Download (https://mega.nz/#!LwQzUSSQ!O_s966Tcjk43TzzDh8BJBPmO3Z53jJkO8jF6ElJNcLU) / Sample (https://vimeo.com/220013734)


It is incredible how well these Warsaw pieces flow together and can be rearranged, which is a point Tango briefly touched upon in the past and got me to do a little experimenting today. Like with my Katamari Symphony arrangement, I believe when a Japanese composer goes to Warsaw, they always approach it like a concert work first, and a media project second. On Twitter there was an event recently which I can not find anymore that made it plain as day that the bond between Poland and Japan grows ever stronger these days. The Warsaw Chamber Orchestra and the Warsaw Philharmonic basically made Japan their second base. It's really amazing that Akira Senju and Masamichi Amano created perhaps the greatest miracle in the media scoring buisness.



Also Keijo probably never :(

Sirusjr
06-02-2017, 06:03 PM
I've been listening to the music for Rime by David Garcia Diaz. It is Austin Wintory style but with soul and compelling melody. Quite a lovely score that I will probably revisit multiple times.

EDIT: Oh and Tadlow's 2CD Duel in the Sun is out! I quite love how they get Tiomkin to sound. Plus released along with Cecil B. DeMille American Epic by Elmer Bernstein! I know what I'll be listening to, more delightful classic scores.

streichorchester
06-03-2017, 04:02 AM
I feel Giacchino made that Spider-man arrangement because he knows he doesn't stand a chance of matching Elfman's or Horner's thematic ingenuity.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-03-2017, 04:24 AM
Nonetheless, don't worry, this is just for the Marvel Fanfare (hopefully.)

Well, if that's true then at least we won't have to listen to his vapid Marvel Studios fanfare this time. :-D

As Vinphonic said, certainly something a little jazzy would have been far more interesting; I don't know how much education Giacchino has in jazz but he could always turn to Tim Simonec, who contributed some pretty competent and swingin' tunes for Whiplash (http://cuttingedge.sourceaudio.com/#!artist?id=264420).

The Zipper
06-03-2017, 04:41 AM
This cheap Spider Man arrangement is what I've come to accept as the norm for Giacchino. His recent career choices for any kind of franchise film seems to be based on riding on the work of others without doing anything unique to add in his own voice, unless you count terrible mixing and transitions. Nearly everything he makes has to include heavy doses of "homage cues", until you realize such cues has become more of a crutch to hold up whatever little contributions he has made rather than any kind of tribute. Of course, he will include some of his own themes, but rarely are they the focus of his music. I hold him in the same contempt as Bates, but at least whenever Bates scores a reboot/sequel he doesn't reuse entire chunks of the original material (other than the 300 plagiarism fiasco), and so we are all free to judge his actual ability in each of his works out in the open without anyone else's work serving as perfume. I can see why Giacchino is so popular with producers and fans though- hire him and his homage packages and fans will be pleased just hearing the old themes, or at the very least an arrangement that sounds similar in style. And he can get it all done in two weeks! Maybe I'm underselling him here because he has had some decent scores when not relying on a big-name franchise. But to freely indulge in such forms of lazy recycling and call it a "homage" just because it's from a popular franchise; I don't know how much closer he can get to the textbook definition of a hack.

I understand that it's probably also a matter of technical ability, because Giacchino doesn't know how to convey his own style other than "simplify the original cues and add electronics", but I'm sure by now that even he is aware of his own deficiencies as a composer. But unlike others like Elfman, you never see him brush up on his skills outside of the recording studio. He knows that he's not very good and that he has to ride on the work of others to get his paycheck- and he doesn't care.

streichorchester
06-03-2017, 08:05 AM
Don Davis is scoring Tokyo Ghoul? What?

ladatree
06-03-2017, 11:11 AM
Yep legit.
http://tower.jp/item/4533067/「東京喰種」オリジナル・サウンドトラック
Didn't that dude do The Matrix or something?
------

Nier: Automata makes me hope they or Kato do a Gundam show one day.

Vinphonic
06-03-2017, 11:57 AM
Heh, if nothing else he wrote the one of the greatest boss battles in movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7WMFSc4yIU (ironically more "epic" than anything RC ever did)


Well Captain Earth is the closest we got so far, but it's a different approach. MONACA employs various styles, but a return to full SciFi orchestra mode would be nice.

The Zipper
06-03-2017, 12:30 PM
I loved the Matrix's score, both the Juno Reactor techno and Davis orchestra elements (especially how they both come together in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9EJOX3OPiY), but I have some apprehensions because Japanese live action adaptations always seem to use more RC-inspired music for some reason, like Sato's approach to Kenshin. Maybe hiring Davis means they finally want something different from that for once.

I wonder how much longer until Japan can sign up Alan Menken for something.

streichorchester
06-03-2017, 05:01 PM
Are they not making a fourth Evangelion film? Give Sagisu a break and let Goldenthal take a crack at it. I want to hear Rei's theme played by 12 horns and 5 bass trombones.

ladatree
06-04-2017, 02:30 PM
Metal Gear Solid to get orch concerts.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-06-04/metal-gear-franchise-gets-orchestra-concerts-in-japan-n-america-europe/.117004

PonyoBellanote
06-04-2017, 02:49 PM
Are they not making a fourth Evangelion film? Give Sagisu a break and let Goldenthal take a crack at it. I want to hear Rei's theme played by 12 horns and 5 bass trombones.

As great as that would be, it's not happening. Sagisu is tied tight into the franchise. Anno won't want another.


Metal Gear Solid to get orch concerts.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-06-04/metal-gear-franchise-gets-orchestra-concerts-in-japan-n-america-europe/.117004

So many orchestra concerts lately.. not like I complain..

Herr Salat
06-05-2017, 10:20 AM
Don't forget Takayuki Wanabe's Rebirth of Mothra scores (...). Pure gold, all of them, especially the 2nd and third Mothra scores. My favorite tracks in particular are Princess Yuna's Theme (http://picosong.com/7LKW/) from Rebirth of Mothra 2, and Cretaceous Period Battle Part 1 (http://picosong.com/7LBe/) from Mothra 3.


Publisher: PolyGram & Futureland/Toshiba-EMI | Release Year: 1998

Scores composed & arranged by
Toshiyuki WATANABE
MOTHRA 2 + 3
(Mothra 2, dir. Kunio Miyoshi - 1997 // Mothra 3, dir. Okihiro Yoneda - 1998
US titles: Rebirth of Mothra II/III)

Kan Sawada, orchestrator on Mothra 2
Studio orchestra(s), conductor(s) uncredited

JP 2CD 'Complete Score' Releases



Sirusjr (Thread 57893) shared the 1CD release for 'Rebirth of Mothra 2' in 2009. Here are the Japanese 2CD 'complete score' releases. I've also included additional archives recreating the single album releases... In case someone wants a lean listening experience first and then check out the full meal.

I've just noticed the 1CD releases in 'MP3 320' I re-posted have 48k sample rates, so they are probably of dubious quality (Thread 57893).

Source: Personal collection
FLAC / LOG / SCANS: https://anon.click/woxiy61
(MediaFire Behind Capcha)

<hr>


Hindemith wrote a pretty good flute sonata, but he's not nearly as good as Poulenc.


Cover/Lettering from 'Neue Zeitschrift f�r Musik. Heft 5, 1995'

Composed by
Paul Hindemith
Sonata for Flute & Piano (1936)
1st movt. Heiter bewegt (http://picosong.com/7LtL/)
2nd movt. Sehr langsam
3rd movt. Sehr lebhaft. Marsch

Enzo Caroli (flute), Renato Maioli (piano)

Publisher: Sipario Dischi | Release Year: 1993 | From the Album: The Flute from '700 to '900

From the liner notes: �The sonata belongs to the period when Hindemith recognizes the validity of the tonal functions, as opposed to the dodecaphony. It is a real jewel in the construction of the harmony, the timbres, the deep irony mediated by the Theatre of Brecht, especially in the last movement, when the final March grotesquely underlines the Militarism of a generation tending towards the holocaust.� ---Gian Luca Petrucci

Source: Chameo
FLAC: https://anon.click/penej92
(MediaFire Behind Capcha)

J A W S
06-05-2017, 10:52 AM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF0e9CSQNXQ

---------- Post added at 04:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 AM ----------



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF0e9CSQNXQ

PonyoBellanote
06-05-2017, 11:31 AM
Thanks Herr Salat. But where's Mothra 1? o: My OCD kills me :P

Vinphonic
06-05-2017, 08:38 PM
Legacy of Japan / Runner-Ups
Hiroshi Takaki



PW:PinkHurricane! (https://anon.click/magis38)


Here we have another very classical inspired composer that is not living up to his fullest potential yet. With TYTANIA he set an insane high benchmark, a score worthy of space opera and the core of it written in Sahashi's Gundam Symphonies style.

For Samurai Sentai Shinkenger he wrote a score that does not need to hide behind Yamashita and is a more than worthy entry into the franchise, delivering at its core classical inspired film score.

AKB0048 is one of those Japanese miracles... a show about a pop idol group (albeit in space!!!!) gets some really good orchestral pop arrangements and a decent chunk of delicious SciFi score. Such oddities could happen a lot more for my tastes :D

Kaidan Restaurant is another classical inspired score that is straight out of Elfman territory but with a very distinct voice Takaki established early on.

Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu is a very nice afternoon score with some stellar moments of film score.

Beet The Vandel Buster is a nice adventure score in tradition of Tokusatsu scores.

Denkigai is more Demo reel than score to be honest, but a pretty stellar one ;)
(He also has pretty good taste in pop: http://picosong.com/72is)

Saint October shows Takaki's Jazz and Big Band background and is one of those charming quirky scores the anime medium is filled to the brim with.

But a huge chunk of his work and effort went into Precure which did continue Sato's legacy more than Takanashi's intermezzo (but some trademarks sneaked into Takaki's scores). His Precure scores are great fun, filled with everything I love about the medium, from 60s Disco to Tchaikovsky, he continiously evolved with each new entry and hours upon hours of classical inspired gravitas and 60s/70s inspired wacky adventures.
All the more tragic that he leaves it after delivering his latests and most mature efforts for Maho Girls and Minna de Utau.

After checking KiraKira and the "to put it mildly" soulless imitation I just had to return to the proper version. It's a shame but here we have two composers who wrote music in the exact same style for the exact same franchise and yet one of those two can only be called competent enough. But as usual, Takaki gets quickly forgotten and Hayashi praised, I wonder why... But just compare the first tracks of KiraKira with DokiDoki... worlds apart in skill. When I think about what Ruka Kawada or Yukari Hashimoto would have done... Hayashi has his strengths and I don't dislike his work but here they are wasted and miscast, which is sad to hear.

Oh well, at least I can sing the song of praise for Takaki's efforts. While Sato had better moments Takaki delivered consistent high quality in a potpurri of styles that I will use as the benchmark for this franchise (I only really care again when Hayashi is replaced). If there's ever a Precure Orchestra concert (and I just have this itch that will be announced soon) I hope they focus on Takaki's work.

As far as Takaki's career goes, I hope he made some connections through Precure and is involved in a more "serious" project for a change. He has yet to show us his greatest work but I'm very much looking forward to the day it drops.

Enjoy

tangotreats
06-06-2017, 10:45 AM
Takaki... frustrating. Capable of so much. Looked like he was going to become the new go-to-guy for the orchestral score - and as it turns out Tytania was the beginning and the end of his career as a serious anime composer. Not to say that he hasn't written EXCELLENT music since (far from it) but he doesn't deserve to get stuck in crappy comedies and fluffy pink kids' shows. Shinkenger was kind-of Tytania 2 with a smaller orchestra, and after that...

AKB0048 had excellent moments but suffered from a) most of the orchestra time being squandered on arrangements of pop songs and b) Takaki sharing the composing chair with Kowalewski. (Kowalewski's cues are superb and he needs a career badly, but I really want Takaki to do another balls-to-the-wall Sci-fi score...

nextday
06-06-2017, 01:03 PM
I wonder if the upcoming Legend of the Galactic Heroes reboot will have an original score. That would be a great opportunity for a sci-fi score. I feel like they're going to take the classical route to match the original though.

Oh and some bad news: Yuya Mori is being replaced on the TV version of Black Clover. It's by a different studio and director so it's not completely surprising... but it still sucks. The OVA director is an industry veteran who understands the importance of music (he gave us Fafner and Heroic Age) while the TV director is only a rookie.

Vinphonic
06-06-2017, 04:30 PM
It's happening... Anime & Game Symphony... Kohei Tanaka and Kenji Ito...



Maybe this is the BIG PROJECT Tanaka mentioned...



If this becomes a series then how about Sahashi next year... he recently posted that he will record his opera with a "special orchestra" (whatever that means) and that it will premier in 2018.

tangotreats
06-07-2017, 12:22 PM
The first release of Yamashita's fourth and most recent Sentai score (Kyuranger - not to be confused with Kyoryuger) happened last week and I totally missed it.

Well, what can I say? I think we have another Gokaiger in the making - at the very least, a score that should stand above 2015's Ninninger. Yamashita pulls the usual Sentai tropes but, as usual, a wonderfully mature symphonic score runs in parallelwith the usual electric guitars and rock. I really look forward to the rest of the score as it makes its inevitable fragmented release throughout the rest of 2017! :D

The Zipper
06-07-2017, 11:09 PM
I did a bit more digging on Asakawa's career history. His music speaks for itself, but he has arguably the most impressive credentials I've ever seen from any Japanese composer. This guy is kind of a prodigy.

http://www.face-music.co.jp/2_artist/asakawa.htm

Started playing the electone and learning composition from when he was 4, started playing piano when he was 6, won the Yamaha electone competition junior division from when he was 10, and from then had been sent all over the world as a musical envoy for Yamaha until he was 15, winning numerous other awards and gaining other titles along the way. Went to the Tokyo National University of Fine Arts and Music for high school and college to master composition, finishing his education with their advanced organ course. From then on he became NHK's musical golden boy and composed/arranged/performed worldwide.

I'm even more baffled now why he decided to throw everything away just to play the harp. He was once one of the most respected musicians in all of Japan.

the marvin
06-08-2017, 06:41 AM
Hey guys, could I get a few recommendations?
I haven't really heard many Japanese scores except for Sato's and Hisaishi's scores.

nextday
06-08-2017, 07:20 AM
Hey guys, could I get a few recommendations?
I haven't really heard many Japanese scores except for Sato's and Hisaishi's scores.
Vinphonic has put together some great compilations here: Thread 215484

Vinphonic
06-08-2017, 11:05 AM
I feel like that might be a little overwhelming for a new traveler ;)
I've reuploaded my more general introduction to the world of Japanese music:




Vinphonic presents:



The Art of Film Scoring
The Music of Japanese Entertainment
1995-2015








This is a colossal conglomeration of quality film music from the Japanese Entertainment Industry. In total I created 10 volumes with over 20 hours of the creme de la creme of Japanese "film" music of the last 20 years with a clear focus on contemporary orchestral music.

I divided the volumes into general categories but when I arranged it all I did realize just how much quality classical inspired orchestral music rooted in Hollywood traditions with symphonic structure there actually is in Japanese Animation/Anime. It is by far the biggest chunk of the collection and the first four volumes are all about animation, a clear winner in terms of quality AND quantity. I think there is currently no place in the world where more film and classical music is written by a huge quantity of experts (by old Hollywood standards, some even in their early 30s) and performed by traditional studio and symphony orchestras than in the Japanese Anime Industry.

Volume five and six are all about where you would normally expect to hear grand Hollywoodesque epic film music in style of Williams/Horner/Goldsmith. It's now 2016 and there are still countless scores recorded with studio and symphony orchestras like it's 1977 or even 1959.

With volume seven and eight we venture into video game territory and there's no shortage of "film" music here as well. I also realized just how big the "RPG" video game genre actually is in Japan. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with all the numerous historical series out there and some now even older than I am :0 (and I even post here right now because of one). But you can go so far as to say that this genre of video game music is more rooted in classical, symphonic film music than any other and the respective volume is a true testament to its greatness. Even in 2016 there's already two symphonic albums with full symphony orchestras announced and I'm sure the genre will get blessed with countless more.

The eight orchestral volumes also show the deep connection of Japanese composers, arrangers and music producers with European Symphony Orchestras. Worldclass orchestras like the "The Warsaw National Philharmonic Orchestra", "The Moscow Symphony Orchestra", "The Tokyo Philharmonic" and even the worldbest "London Symphony Orchestra" have all performed and are still performing numerous scores for Japanese Anime, Games, Films and Television. The same orchestra that played STAR WARS also played three equally fantastic symphonic Sci-Fi scores for GUNDAM. In fact Japanese orchestral composers usually go overseas, most of the time to eastern europe, if they can afford it and if the budget is ludicrous they even make their way to London because most are simply commited to the art of Film scoring and doing the best you can with the money you have for the love of music.

Yes there are numerous "Zimmeresque" scores as well in Japan but not only are they still offering a unique voice instead of sounding all the same but overall it is a country that values MUSIC over sound design. It is a country with a high level musical education system, strong love for classical music, numerous symphony orchestras and concert bands and equally eager composers who write music for them.

The last two volumes are not exactly orchestral but nonetheless show the massive diverseness of quality film music, ranging from frantic Jazz to soft piano sonatas. Another face of Japanese entertainment is experimentalism and a mix of very differnt genres in the same score. It is not at all unusal to find a baroque flute piece in combination with progressive Jazz and Sch�nbergian Dissonance, in the same piece even. You can find pretty much any genre and style of Jazz there is in Japanese scores and an even greater number in fan albums from small and big bands. Jazz is far from dying in Japan, in fact it's very much alive.

The last volume finishes on an intimate note but it has to be said, Japanese Entertainment just excells at intimacy, loveliness and cuteness far more than any other industry on earth. There's an insane amount of delicate piano and string pieces, most in classical and romantic style, heartwarming, sugary cute and with addicting melodies. This country perfected the terms "lovely" and "cute" to an artform.

In Japan there is truely a renaissance of all things wonderful, music-wise. Not only the revival of Jazz but more importantly Baroque or classical style orchestral music... and oh boy, there's a lot.
If I may go a bit historical, I think the Japanese did with "our" orchestral music what they once did with our firearms. Almost the very first thing the Japanese did when the Portuguese brought them firearms was "to make them ourselves and improve it". A few decades later there were more firearms produced and used in Japan than in the ENTIRETY of europe.

I think the same kind of ingenuity happended with orchestral music. Now we have more classical-baroque-romantic-modern-hollywood orchestral music produced in Japan than anywhere else in the world. And almost no one knows of it.


I created every volume with a concert listening experience in mind and thus made numerous concert suites and medleys, I believe all will work well in the concert hall and I hope some influencal listeners take some inspiration to avoid the usual missteps of the normal "hip" concert program with "The Greatest Video Game Music...Call of Duty...and Minecraft" (Ouch) and "The Greastes Anime Hits...Naruto, Bleach and Attack on Titan" (yawn)
Many orchestral pieces were remastered to improve the listening experience with the greatest attention to quality, all were edited in FLAC if possible and then converted to MP3 V0 (It's just too massive in FLAC). The only downside to Japanese scores is usually the "sound" and that involves the mastering as well. Most of the scores recorded in Europe are fine but it's another matter with domestic recorded scores. I can say with confidence that it just sounds much better, especially if you are used to the european classical and the traditonal Hollywood sound. I realized if I want to remaster every Japanese score I love that it would take years, and all that time and work without getting paid... oh what a man does for his love for music.

With all that said I hope you can find the time and dive into the wonderful world of Japanese Entertainment.


Vol. 1 "Filmlike and classical" (https://anon.click/qadaq64)

Vol. 2 "Classical, Jazz, Love, Fusion" (https://anon.click/laqiw15)


PW: 1995



Feel free to share, spread and recommend but don't forget to credit

If you are intrigued you can also check out my Twitter channel (http://twitter.com/Vinphonic) where I will post new and old fantastic music from time to time. You can go to my youtube channel through that. If you like my work you can leave a small tip if you want.

Enjoy!

After going through that I would recommend to dive into my monster post.



@nextday: Shame about Black Clover, but hey Misa Chujo is back :D (and Mori Yuya at least scored a film)

And on a sidenote, Evan Call made it big, not only landed a major action series this summer but is also in charge of Kyoani's next flagship title (the commercial was most likely scored by him). Also Akito Matsuda will be quite busy... FOUR major motion pictures, continuing with a film for a franchise he wrote his best orchestral effort so far.

@Tango: Most excellent! I wonder if his PuzzleXDragon will get a release, pls no more Gaist Crushers...


@Zipper: Yes, astonishing, but we will most likely never find out the reason why he stepped down but you can't tell me there's no demand for the music he loves to write, I still hear it in various anime series and films and once in a while there comes a genius project like Spice and Wolf, Dantalian or Ouran where they approach the music from the angle of writing and producing it on a level that it would not feel out of place during the era or place of inspiration. We simply have to hope that such a project will appear with his name attached sometime in the future.

ladatree
06-08-2017, 11:55 AM
And on a sidenote, Evan Call made it big, not only landed a major action series this summer but is also in charge of Kyoani's next flagship title (the commercial was most likely scored by him)

Since he's now with Miracle Bus he'll be doing TV Shows and movies now. Yokoyama's new drama soundtrack has a song sung by him.

cryosx
06-21-2017, 11:02 PM
Finally back up and running. Thought we lost her there.

nextday
06-22-2017, 04:21 AM
2 days turned into 2 weeks. Never underestimate the admins of this forum - they always seem to screw something up.

MonadoLink
06-22-2017, 06:58 AM
Damn, well at least the forums are back. We need a backup plan

Vinphonic
06-22-2017, 11:18 AM
Ah... finally back again...



And coincidentally, lots of interesting things happened regarding our favorite subject the last two weeks, but more about that later.



@MonadoLink: We actually do have one, thankfully we didn't need to use it just yet: FFSBackup (http://orc.prophpbb.com/)

nextday
06-22-2017, 01:58 PM
At least the problems are fixed now. Avatar changes, email notifications, etc. are now functional again.

The Zipper
06-23-2017, 01:02 AM
I don't particularly enjoy his music, but I'm really happy for Evan Call. A foreigner getting such a huge project to take charge of despite being in the industry for only around five years- for all the talk of Japan's xenophobia I'm not really getting it from the anime industry, despite all of its other faults. Hopefully Evan will not be the last Gaijin to taste freedom from Hollywood's committee control.

Vinphonic
06-23-2017, 02:07 AM
Well, I would say if you want a serious career as an anime composer, speaking fluent Japanese is first order of business (player communication via translator is a hassle). Evan Call speaks fluent Japanese and graduated from a topclass music institution while having some unique musical talents, so that puts him right among friends in the anime business. I think we have not really heared his potential yet so I hope Evergarden will give us that. Still, anyone who has vintage Iwasaki as his musical idol is worth a listen ;)


And some news from the last 14 Days:

- Yuri on Ice and Kemono Friends get orchestral concerts, so we finally have reached the next step in the ongoing Japanese concert craze...
- Japanese Racing Game gets orchestral score recorded in Hollywood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bvFI7CinN8
- Also notice how casually the studio director happens to be a composer too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75hq3FW7S9w&t=2m37s
- Go Shiina with massive orchestra and choir confirmed for Code Vein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acDwZpBo8o8 (another Aria of Light please)
- Yasunori Mitsuda recorded a nice orchestral score (probably cutscenes) for Xenoblade 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbOv8xneR4Y
- So glad they keep going the Jazz route for the next big Mario, but we probably can expect some grand orchestral pieces judging by the synth demos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGQHQc_3ycE
- Episode 10 of Kado is the best thing Iwashiro wrote in recent memory, if you want to exlude his symphonic Arslan. And of course its blu-ray bonus :(
- Likewise, episode 10 of Virgin Soul was beautiful. No soundtrack confirmed yet but we have Shadowverse as an appetizer out on Jul, 19
- Toshiyuki Watanabe will be scoring the new Mazinger...

Anything I missed?


Oh and tomorrow is one of this year's highlights...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14b6Y6UzNXo

I wonder if we once again have to wait till september.

The Zipper
06-23-2017, 03:06 AM
Well, if all those composers from Europe could learn English when they joined Hollywood in the 30s and 40s, then I expect that learning Japanese won't be an issue for anyone who wants to compose in Japan nowadays. Do a couple commercials and Visual Novels, and then after a while the big TV and video game gigs would start rolling in. I've seen a lot of up-and-coming composers salivate at the idea of having actual live instruments to work with and no temp tracks, both of which are the bare minimum standard for anime soundtracks. Those who want to just play with some samples and synths like Tyler Bates can just stay in Hollywood. I think the only thing really physically holding people back is the fact that living in Japan (especially Tokyo where all music is recorded and all studios are located) is insanely pricey and working with large orchestras is impossible unless they plan to frequent Warsaw. But the most popular reason is that working on dumb anime has no prestige in their eyes, even though it would arguably give them more freedom than any job they could get being contracted to Media Ventures.

There's hundreds of talented and trained composers like Evan Call that graduate from top-of-the-line music colleges each year, and I doubt that many would be happy to make a career out of copying Zimmer. Had Evan decided to join Hollywood he would have most likely been relegated to being either an orchestrator or a ghostwriter.

On another note, the Mahouka movie came out a week ago and Iwasaki said he was rather pleased with the music, but how come there hasn't been a soundtrack announced yet?

Sirusjr
06-23-2017, 06:17 AM
I thought I would jump in and say it. Brian Tyler's mummy score is really fun. I wouldn't say it is an orchestral triumph but the themes really work a lot better than his recent scores and manage to be just what it needs. Some people felt this fun from his TMNT score but I get it a lot more here.

ladatree
06-23-2017, 07:29 AM
Anything I missed?

Yes Clockwork Planet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaV4L1SpJJw[COLOR="Silver"]


On another note, the Mahouka movie came out a week ago and Iwasaki said he was rather pleased with the music, but how come there hasn't been a soundtrack announced yet?

Either it'll be with the Bluray, the CD Will come later or pull a Fairy Tail Dragon Cry and not bring it out at all and annoy everyone.

nextday
06-23-2017, 12:26 PM
Toshiyuki Watanabe will be scoring the new Mazinger...
This one is actually pretty cool considering his father scored the original 45 years ago.

Vinphonic
06-23-2017, 02:11 PM
I wonder what he will be paying homage to this time?

The original stuff from Akira Miyagawa in 2199 and 2202 is 100% Star Trek

Star Trek, Vol. 2 - Doomsday Machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf7y1Bn4LKU&feature=youtu.be&t=1m40s) (also inspired John Williams)

Gamilas Dimensional Submarine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuqfTes7oe0)




@SirusJr: It's alright but not worth a purchase for me. I would put it in the same category as Avengers: Civil War, pretty decent on its own but nothing special to revisit. Nonetheless, I still think its a waste of worldclass ressources.

Azumahigure1
06-23-2017, 04:08 PM
Yes Clockwork Planet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaV4L1SpJJw[COLOR="Silver"]



Either it'll be with the Bluray, the CD Will come later or pull a Fairy Tail Dragon Cry and not bring it out at all and annoy everyone.

I thought that Iwasaki-san will release a standalone soundtrack for Mahouka since the bundled ones from him are a rarity. I am almost everyday watching his twitter for some news...

The Zipper
06-23-2017, 05:33 PM
If it wasn't released as standalone you can bet Iwasaki would have virtually gutted everyone on Twitter already like he did with Jojo's and Jormungand. From what I understand the film itself was a rather low-key release not played in many theaters, and most reviews of it I read claim that the animation was the same average quality as the TV series, with the only standout being unsurprisingly Iwasaki's music once again. Crossing my fingers for an announcement soon.

Gotta give Brian Tyler mad props for not attempting to reuse the previous Mummy themes. His isn't nearly as good, but it's clearly his own voice.


On another note for recent news, I'm surprised no one brought up Hisaishi's NNK II:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9VuivhThKg

Vinphonic
06-23-2017, 08:11 PM
What's there to bring up... Hisaishi... Ni no Kuni II... those two names together alone are already enough to make my mouth water ;)


Well, if all those composers from Europe could learn English when they joined Hollywood in the 30s and 40s, then I expect that learning Japanese won't be an issue for anyone who wants to compose in Japan nowadays. Do a couple commercials and Visual Novels, and then after a while the big TV and video game gigs would start rolling in. I've seen a lot of up-and-coming composers salivate at the idea of having actual live instruments to work with and no temp tracks, both of which are the bare minimum standard for anime soundtracks. Those who want to just play with some samples and synths like Tyler Bates can just stay in Hollywood. I think the only thing really physically holding people back is the fact that living in Japan (especially Tokyo where all music is recorded and all studios are located) is insanely pricey and working with large orchestras is impossible unless they plan to frequent Warsaw. But the most popular reason is that working on dumb anime has no prestige in their eyes, even though it would arguably give them more freedom than any job they could get being contracted to Media Ventures.

There's hundreds of talented and trained composers like Evan Call that graduate from top-of-the-line music colleges each year, and I doubt that many would be happy to make a career out of copying Zimmer. Had Evan decided to join Hollywood he would have most likely been relegated to being either an orchestrator or a ghostwriter.


I get what you mean but that is an essential question for any musician: Do you want to pursue the art or are you content with taking the money. Current Hollywood composers demonstarte that if you just want to live the luxury life as a composer... fuck education, fuck classical training, fuck this dumb "artform", fuck honoring past generations, fuck being remembered in 300 years and all that and just copy the same thing everybody else does and put some dubstep and drumloops over it... bam! Two million dollar paycheck!!! for a movie everybody will forget in six months.

Or you pursue the "art", research where classical education and past generations of musicians are still being held in the highest honor with the greatest amount of admiration, dedicatition and love and just go there, even if the pay is not great. Evan Call specifically mentioned in an interview that the pay is not great but he couldn't be happier in his life, actually meeting the idol of his dreams (Iwasaki) in person and expressing himself freely with the usual anime guideline "just do what you feel is best for the project". And I hold the belief that limitations channel great art. Most Japanese composers are just incredibly skilled, working decades with smallscale ensembles and orchestras that if you actually let them loose on a giant symphony orchestra you get in my humble opinion the most amazing orchestral scores of the 21st century. Japan right now is the same work environment as Golden Age Hollywood, the level at which these people in Tokyo operate is just another league apart from the rest of the world these days.





Which brings me (thanks to Zipper's baton pass) to a major setpiece I was going to release before the forum went down. It's quite long, so take your time. It's essentially my Volume 3 of my introduction to the wonder of Japan I posted above. I'll also make a separate thread for it, I've done much research on the following topic, and I'm quite satisfied how this turned out:

Apart from my Legacy project, there was one more massive project I did pursue in earnest. I’ve put the finishing touches on it this morning and just as this forum opens itself anew, I believe the time has come to post it:


The further I did some actual research why Japan works the way it does to keep people like me happy and how it took over the torch of classical and jazz music, I simply have to correct some of my points I made some years ago. I once stated in a comparison to Hollywood that Japan/Tokyo is no magical music wonderland and it has dozens of mediocre/bad music too… but after I digged quite deep into the subject for my own research and interest and I hope your amazement, I simply have to correct that statement. JAPAN IS A WORLD WONDER, and it goes far beyond just music, they avoided the hellhole of postmodernism, gave it the middle finger and are celebrating and living a universal standard of arts as well as the accumulation of the cultural heritages of the world on their little island.

From Vienna classical to Golden Times Americana to 60s Britain, Tokyo is a melting pot of cultures in its purest form, in lifestyle, media and music. It can be heard, seen and tasted everywhere in their daily lives and our best cultural exports have evolved over there and have now merged with their own culture as well. This also falls in line with my prior research about the Japanese special awareness for cultural preservation. The effort to make anime/game music part of human cultural and human civilization for example is no laughing matter to them, yes, the people pushing it truly believe in their cause of making anime/game music be a natural evolution of classical music.

And who can respite the main philosophy of the biggest Japanese Music Arts association that is working behind the scenes, hand in hand with similar organizations that make it possible that about a billion orchestra concerts are happening right now…


"Where there are people, there need be dreams. The inspiration of experiencing true art gives people energy for living. We will continue to present the world's most moving performances.
We invite to Japan leading international classical musicians and overseas groups such as opera and ballet companies, orchestras, and chamber ensembles, we will organize performances in the Tokyo area and secure venues and carry out ticket sales.

In recent Years Japanese artists have been achieving remarkable success as well throughout the world, and we also continue to strengthen our efforts in support of these artists’ international activities.
We plan to produce many concerts to support the activities of outstanding Japanese musicians, and also represent them in overseas engagements.

While responding to the rapidly changing global situation, we will be truly happy if we can continue to work in cooperation and share timeless, unchanging values while celebrating differences in country and culture.
We will continue to devote our efforts to bringing inspiration and riches of the heart and mind to as many people as possible through magnificent art.”

- Japan Arts


I have prepared two essays to illustrate this point: One on classical music (European culture) by pianist and violinist Josephine Yang on the Renaissance of classical music in Japan and one on Jazz (American Culture) and general machinations of Tokyo by Journalist Tom Downey. I highly recommend to read them before diving into the following collection. It’s perhaps not the one where I put my equipment to the test but I carefully selected various pieces out of millions and put some hours of care into arranging them to illustrate my point and the content of the essays the best.

Japanese media composers are by and large NOT film composers. We may put too much focus on the film music aspect (granted some of us live in that world) and not notice the bigger spectrum. They are ORCHESTRAL ARTISTS first, influenced by all kinds of music culture all around the world, clothed with the power of the world’s most astounding music education system. Sometimes they take on the mantle of classical composers, sometimes jazz composers and yes, sometimes film composers but no category overwhelms another unless a specific artist has a specific taste or a project has a very exclusive demand or locked-picture scoring. And almost any composer working over there should have no problem launching into each field of music because of this:

“Music education begins at age 6 and lasts as a mandatory class until age 15 (during elementary and junior high schools). In elementary schools, music is taught as an independent subject either by the regular class teacher or by a specialized music teacher. Students learn to play recorders and sing. In junior high schools, music is taught as a separate subject, and starting from junior high, the students learn how to play traditional Japanese instruments as well. At this point in their education, 100% of students in both public and private schools have been exposed to western classical music. Music classes become optional electives at the senior high school levels, and ensembles like bands, choirs, orchestra, etc. congregate in sessions after normal school hours. The normal Japanese education timeline is: 6 years in elementary school (sho-gakko), 3 years in junior high school (chu-gakko), and 3 years in senior high school (koto-gakko). Solfege is taught with the fixed-do system, unlike most American institutions that teach movable-do.” (read the essay!)

And even though I’m not a fan of Yokoyama’s work, he can at least write a classical piece and jazz at a competent level, same goes for Hayashi (Jazz is his strongest game I feel) and Kajiura. Among popular composers there’s really only Sawano and Sagisu that I feel are a bit clueless or far too simple on what they are doing, BUT Sagisu manages to be a great pop musician to compensate with some genuine sparks on a soundtrack (his earlier stuff in particular) and Sawano at least sounds totally unique in the Japanese soundworld and does that RC wall of sound far better than RC themselves with the exception of Zimmer in my opinion, and hey, the more flavors the better.
But without further ado, here’s the first essay:



Tokyo’s Thriving Classical Music Culture

Part 1: The centre of classical music in the 21st century?

"The country has shown an extraordinary devotion to Western music for 140 years." - Ivan Hewett

Where is the nerve centre of classical music in the early 21st century? Answering that question depends on your criteria. If it's to do with possessing a venerable tradition, you might choose Vienna. If it's the location of the best orchestras and opera houses, you might choose Berlin. If it's finding exuberantly creative ways to reinvent the tradition, London or New York seem strong contenders. But if the true measure is a passionate devotion amounting almost to idolatry, Tokyo would win the palm.

It's revealed in a thousand ways, not least in the sweetly earnest way people talk about the art form. The president of the Japan Arts Corporation wrote in his company's concert brochure that "music has the power to foster a richer greater experience for the human soul." Audiences listen in a silence that one can only describe as fervent. At one concert in Tokyo, my neighbour sat perfectly still, eyes closed, for the entire three hours of Bach's St Matthew Passion, with only a tiny rhythmic movement of his little finger to show that he was still alive.

Many factors come together in the Japanese love affair with classical music, some ancient, some new. The most obvious factor is fairly recent - Japan's decision in 1868 to end centuries of isolation and open itself to the West. One of the first imports was Western music. By 1872 Western music had supplanted traditional music in the Japanese school system, and in 1884 the philosopher Shoichi Toyama actually suggested that Christianity should be adopted because it would help the new music to take root.

Another advantage of Western music was that it seemed better suited to modern sensibilities than the old traditional songs. The writer Nagai Kafu, who studied in Paris, remarked sadly that "no matter how much I wanted to sing Western songs, they were all very difficult. Had I, born in Japan, no choice but to sing Japanese songs? Was there a Japanese song that expressed my present sentiment - a traveller who had immersed himself in love and the arts in France but was now going back to the extreme end of the Orient where only death would follow monotonous life? I felt forsaken. I belonged to a nation that had no music to express swelling emotions and agonised feelings."

But Kafu lived long enough to see that his fears were unfounded. Japan embraced Western ways as its own, a process only briefly interrupted by the Second World War. By the 1950s, Japan had its own artists' agency, and foreign artists were again visiting the country.

At first, the cost was prohibitive. Kaz Nakaya, a retired university English professor and self-confessed opera buff, says that when he first became interested in classical music an LP cost as much as an average month's salary. But the upward momentum was unstoppable. Japan was by now no longer an importer of Western music; it had its own orchestras, some of which, such as the Tokyo Philharmonic, had quite long histories. It had several distinguished manufacturers of pianos and other instruments, which were serious rivals to Western firms. It had its own performing virtuosi, and its own composers, one of whom, Toru Takemitsu, had a worldwide reputation. (The Telegraph, UK, 2006/5)

Part 2: One City, 8 Full-Time Orchestras!

Classical music is not dying out. When I hear the opposite statement being expressed, I have to stifle a sigh — not a reaction of blind optimism, but of my acknowledgment of active organizations successfully bringing great, living music to large and diverse audiences.

One of the most common criticisms of classical music is that it’s too stuffy or exclusive. Being “different” or “exclusive” in classical music is simply an illusion: isn’t exclusivity a part of any culture or practice? And truly, classical music is no less welcoming than jazz, musical theatre, indie, folk, or even popular music.

With all forms of music, there is a certain pride that comes with familiarity and being educated in the field. This holds true even with pop music. American society is so inundated with it that we’re expected to know names and songs of certain pop celebrities, and we almost couldn’t run away if we wanted. As a result, we’re often judged as having antiquated tastes if we happen to be clueless. The feeling of exclusivity in any field happens mostly because people have gotten excited enough about the subject that they have chosen to invest their time and money in it. Consequently, they’ve built up a certain pride in the attainment of knowledge or skill, and some handle it quietly and humbly while others may express themselves differently.

Actually, people are much more receptive to classical music than most think. For instance, all our greatest films would be horribly, painfully awkward without their soundtracks. Remember this video of the Star Wars Throne Room scene, minus John Williams? (And I do consider film music a type of classical music, but more about that in a future blog post.)

So again, classical music is very much alive. That being said, the music is brought to people by various organizations, so it’s always important to acknowledge specific organizations and cultures that manage it well. In my experience thus far of traveling and observing how classical music is received in various cultures, I was most impressed with Tokyo’s overall receptiveness to and integration of classical music, while keeping in mind that this genre of music is a fairly recent import to Japan.

I’ve been to Japan twice: the first time in 2014 to witness conductor Keitaro Harada’s incredible Japan debut with the New Japan Philharmonic in a winter trip that lasted all of four days, and last summer of 2015, when I spent five weeks in Tokyo. Both times, I was awed by the accessibility of classical music and at the respect the people have for music. I’ve been quite fascinated by this, and it’s a topic that repeatedly gets brought up in conversation. It’s about time I wrote a post about all the things that shocked me so much about how music (namely, classical music and cultural music) is presented in Japanese life, with further research to clarify my impressions. While classical music is a thriving entity in Tokyo culture, I believe that the main catalyst for this is the built-in importance of meaningful music in everyday life, whether it’s culturally-significant folk music or classical (some of which really has become as culturally significant as traditional melodies which originated in Japan). While most of this blog post is about classical music, I will also discuss how music in a broader sense is brought to the people.

Tokyo is saturated with classical music. In just this city, there are EIGHT professional, full-time orchestras that total over 1,200 concerts a year: NHK Symphony Orchestra, Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra, Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, Tokyo City Philharmonic, Japan Philharmonic, New Japan Philharmonic, Tokyo Philharmonic, and Tokyo Symphony. Though the names are amusingly similar, each organization is separate and unique. In all of Japan, there are 1,600 orchestras (professional and amateur) — all in a country with a land area that’s smaller than the state of California but holds a population that’s about 40% of the United States! To put things into perspective, the United States would need about 38,000 orchestras to equal that percentage.

Additionally, these concerts are very well-attended. The halls are usually 85-95% full, and the demographic ranges widely in age with many young people in the audience. The dress code is fairly casual, ticket prices are accessible from US $30-120, and evening concerts usually begin at 7 pm. The Japanese audiences are very respectful and quiet from my experience, which isn’t surprising at all considering the widespread societal aversion to acting out. Programming is also pretty standard. In the 10 concerts I attended in five weeks, I didn’t hear anything past Bartok and Stravinsky. Bruckner is interestingly noted to sell out concerts very well. This suited me just fine since I fell in love with the composer after hearing Herbert Blomstedt conduct Bruckner 9 with the LA Phil in a performance that was nothing short of transcendent. Program books are dense and packed with separate flyers for future concerts. Also, most of the orchestra members are Japanese. On the other hand, most of the conductors were European, even while it seems to be quite a trendy thing for Japanese men to want to be conductors.

Part 3: The history of western music in Japan, and Japan’s current music education

How did Western classical music become such a huge part of Japanese culture? I was curious and did a bit of research to find out the origins of this cross-cultural exchange.

Japanese art music originates with shōmyou Buddhist chants, which gradually developed into festival music, nō, and kabuki theater music. The Tokugawa Shogunate of the Edo period (1603-1867) in Japanese history closed the country’s doors to other nations, cutting off trade of goods, ideas, religion, and art. Japan remained this way for two centuries from 1641-1854, when the United States and Japan signed the Treaty of Kanagawa, which reopened Japan to foreigners. This treaty ushered in the Meiji Restoration (1868-1912), during which Japan emerged as a competitive modernized nation. International trade and influence rushed in, and Japan’s leaders attempted to modernize by emulating Western culture, practices, and thought — including music. Minzoku ongaku, or folk music, was gradually displaced by Western classical music, which they simply referred to as ongaku (“music”).

Public school music education began to show this development: Isawa Shūji, a member of a Meiji education search team, and Luther Whiting Mason, a Boston music teacher, teamed up to organize music education in Japan. In 1880, Mason traveled to Japan to create a music curriculum and to begin training teachers. The first children’s songbook, the Shōgaku shōkashū (1881), combined Western pieces that sounded pentatonic (such as “The Bluebells of Scotland,” “Auld Lang Syne,” and Stephen Foster’s songs) with Japanese words and included songs that Mason composed. The teacher-training school that Mason began became the Tokyo School of Music in 1890, and today, the location is occupied by the music department of the Tokyo University of Fine Arts and Music in Ueno Park, Tokyo. Though the university now offers traditional Japanese music courses like koto, samisen, noh, and Japanese music history, until the late 20th century, music education was completely Western.
Children’s education of Japanese music was only presented in middle-school music appreciation courses around ten years after the conclusion of WWII. 20th century youth and workers’ choruses only performed Western repertoire and learned Western-style singing. As worldwide appreciation for cultural identity rose in the mid-20th century, Japanese music education turned back to acknowledge its traditional roots and found ways to combine the Western “robust volume of such functional, harmonized tunes [with the] quieter sounds of older, traditional music” by using the developed Westernized public-school choral tradition for an increased repertoire that now included Japanese music.

Nowadays, in public schools, music education begins at age 6 and lasts as a mandatory class until age 15 (during elementary and junior high schools). In elementary schools, music is taught as an independent subject either by the regular class teacher or by a specialized music teacher. Students learn to play recorders and sing. In junior high schools, music is taught as a separate subject, and starting from junior high, the students learn how to play traditional Japanese instruments as well. At this point in their education, 100% of students in both public and private schools have been exposed to western classical music. Music classes become optional electives at the senior high school levels, and ensembles like bands, choirs, orchestra, etc. congregate in sessions after normal school hours. The normal Japanese education timeline is: 6 years in elementary school (sho-gakko), 3 years in junior high school (chu-gakko), and 3 years in senior high school (koto-gakko). Solfege is taught with the fixed-do system, unlike most American institutions that teach movable-do.

Further schooling at a college level is subject to a performance audition and aural skills test. All music students are expected to have basic competence in piano playing. Most courses in music schools cover western classical music subjects; however, in order to receive certification as school music teachers in Japan, students are required to take courses in Japanese traditional and folk music in addition to the general music curriculum. The music education program leading to graduation with the license to teach at schools in Japan must include: solfege, vocal and instrumental ensemble (choir, instrumental ensemble, piano accompanying), conducting, music theory, composition and arrangement, Western music history, and Japanese traditional and folk music — in addition to general education degree requirements. While all these requirements don’t necessarily guarantee great results, the high standard for music educators definitely is a heartening find.

Part 4: Music in everyday life by the example of train stations and station buildings

Though much of Tokyo’s music is Western in origin, it is distributed and presented by Japanese means. It is incorporated into daily life through the city’s train stations, shopping centers and markets, individual stores, TV commercials and shows, and even household appliances (the last two will be elaborated on in a future blog post)
The train stations in Tokyo are absolutely fascinating because 1) their relative cleanliness despite the insane number of commuters, 2) the amazing shopping for gifts, clothes (Uniqlo!!!), and FOOD, and 3) the MUSIC. The music — the tunes played in the station stores as well as the train melodies to indicate train arrival or departure — always gives me a reason to smile (and forget, for a few seconds, the swelteringly humid heat of Japan in the summer).

A compilation of the JR Line melodies, if you’re curious about the sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzaYg0eHvFE

If you listen to the train music, the immediate realization is that instead of generic tones and beeps, there are real, composed melodies. It was at the Oimachi Station – Rinkai Line where I first realized that there is a reason for every train melody in every station. When I first arrived at this station, I heard the happily familiar sounds of Vivaldi’s “Spring” from Four Seasons. The Oimachi area houses the Shiki Theatre Company, the crown jewel of theatrical achievement in Japan. The meaning of Shiki? “Four Seasons.”

This drove me to research the reasons for other station melodies. At Ebisu Station – Yamanote Line, which is named after Yebisu beer and is the stop for the Yebisu Beer Museum, the train melody is “The Third Man Theme” from the classic film The Third Man. This song was used in a very famous Ebisu beer commercial and has since been associated with the company.
Other tunes are new compositions. Musicians like Takahito Sakurai work to create musical miniatures (7 seconds!) to calm the commuters and even to reduce the overall noise level of train stations. In the approximately 300 melodies that he has written, which are played in about 30 of Japan’s train stations, he searches for “presence and energy” in about the tempo of “a human heartbeat” — a description which I would assume acknowledges the natural fluctuations of tempi. Sakurai is also inspired by Japanese music traditions, including the sound of the ancient stringed koto and Zen Buddhist aesthetics, like the sound of water dripping on a rock. After the tune is written, he runs it through a computerized sound-analysis test to see how the music would mix with the sounds of a passing train; if the results are positive, the music is ready for use. He views his work as another side of Japanese miniaturization in art, in the tradition of haikus, food presentation, toys, and capsule hotels.
Sakurai’s songs, as well as the other melodies used in stations, have garnered a significant following, which shows that the train melodies are an important and valued part of Japanese culture. Albums and ringtones of train melody collections have been made to a very receptive market, and even an alarm clock equipped with these melodies has been manufactured, only to sell out of all 2,000 units priced at 5,800 yen within the first month on the market in 2002. (If you’re curious, the alarm clocks are available here.)
When I realized that the personality and culture of each stop are revealed through such a subtle but concrete way, it made me think twice about the impersonal feeling of a big city and the impression of impersonality in Japanese people. From a musical perspective, I am thrilled to see music being used in such a culturally relevant way, whether it’s classical melodies, film music, folk music, or newly-composed tunes.
On a much darker note, suicide has been a serious concern in Japan, with 2015 reports stating that an average of 65 people commit suicide every day — though the number has been dropping significantly in recent years. A number of these suicides happen at train stations, but there are several known methods of prevention. Barriers, automatic gates, TV screens showing images of nature and the ocean, and soothing blue light (which have been shown to decrease the suicide rate by 84%) are used to combat station suicides. In addition, there is a hefty fee for the families of suicide victims for causing delays in the train systems and also to discourage people from committing suicide. The most intriguing technique to me, however, is related to music and musical understanding. I was told that the keys of the station melodies are chosen based on the character and history of the stop, based on the music’s “color” and corresponding emotional response. In relation to the suicide topic, brighter major keys are used in stations with a history of suicide.
The buildings of Tokyo’s train stations are quite impressive. You can do some of the best shopping for food, clothes, and gifts right in many of the big stations. One of these huge stations is Shinjuku Station.
Another one of my favorite memories was when I was wandering through the station’s crowded underground market, looking for an afternoon snack. When I noticed that the beautiful strains of Beethoven’s 7th Symphony were floating above the noise and chaos of the crowd, I had to stop in my tracks and appreciate the initiative and the music, which somehow still seemed so fitting despite the packed environment. I might have been shocked to hear classical music in this setting, but this is actually the norm in Tokyo.

- Josephine Yang, Pianist and Violinist



Vinphonic presents:

Anime Conservatory
European Culture in Japanese Animation
A Renaissance of Classical Music



PW: MUSIK (https://anon.click/sofay60)
Sample: What the heck is anime? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKi95017ut8)

Now that you’ve (hopefully) read it, I present to you a clear aural evidence of a renaissance of classical music in media, specifically ANIME, a medium I’ve grown to really really love more and more throughout the years, albeit with focus shifting from content to production. At this point I have no problem being bold enough to declare that Japanese Anime is currently the greatest medium of artistic expression (in music) on the planet right now.

Countless interpretations, arrangements and new performances of classical works can be found in this medium alone, from new upstarts to old veterans. From pantyshots and high-pitched voices (or fetish exploration), to children’s entertainment to existential philosophical drama, in the medium of anime you’ll have a high chance of listening to classical music accompanying each and every genre, played for serious drama, gravitas, tranquility, laughs or erotic tension.

I chose 60 pieces and a total of four hours with the criteria that it must not be library-paste jobs like Legend of the Galactic Heroes but must be genuine new recordings, newly arranged and performed. Regardless to say, everyone from Warsaw to local Japanse studio orchestra joins in. So far my idol Beethoven is without any doubt Anime’s classical icon, followed by Tchaikovsky. The insane amount of Beethoven homages is simply astounding, ranging from honest tribute to just plain weird: Gunslinger Girl - Ode to Joy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Gu_yuyjQc&t=30s)

But that’s a given I guess, coming from the most romantic (music) country on earth (literally, they listen to romantic works in the concert hall more so than the rest of the planet combined).
The second part focuses on entirely original classical compositions, or pieces that are more homage than interpretations, written by today’s generations of Japanese composers, that are just as much classical composers as they are film composers. An even more massive collection, clocking around six hours:

100 essential classical pieces from Japanese Anime and Games. I’ve put much thought into what to select and ultimately choose the period of 1995-2017 (I’m sorry Retro-fans, I will think of something in the future) and as a rule of thumb choose three pieces from each orchestral artist. I think what this collection/library exemplifies is an almost seamless transition from the repertoire to the original content. Just as my 2015 collection focused on Film Music, this one does on classical style, and with the medium of Anime and (to a much lesser degree) Japanese Games it was very easy to quickly assemble a collection of the same magnitude as 2015.

I think you would be hard-pressed to find a piece here with inherently Japanese flavor, this is pretty much European cultural heritage par excellence and the medium of Anime deserves far more respect, attention and cultural recognition worldwide for the wonderful things it does, most of all keeping European culture alive, from the beautiful romanticized version of Venice to the Imperial splendor of Paris to 60’s Britain. I’m just amazed just how much European cultural influence there is, from setting to fashion to music. And all are done with 100% attention to detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tFOJFyTl1U&t=43s

Nonetheless, it all continues ever strong, just last week we had a delicious little string arrangement of Strauss Danube Waltz and on the other side of the spectrum a cheap version of Dance of the Knights from your average ecchi series.
Also leave it to the Japanese to make classical style synonymous with eroticism = just like my ancient Greeks. And oh boy, they really jumped the shark in that regard:

A Pantsu Odyssey (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr4qhlkrvus)

And wait till you get to Kizu III, which has basically a ..... scene underscored by opera.

But back to point, classical music continues to be ever strong in anime, just take this recent trailer of a Japanese mobile app:

Shadowverse - Wonderland Dreams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG79Bu8fTUU)
Take on Me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqoYr68QgSk) (and this one too I guess)

Take note just how much you see is inspired by European Folklore and Culture, from the art to the music while still maintaining an original identity and unique artistic “Japanese” voice.
Next season is already offering us a big title with Vatican Miracle Examiner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odbzhf3TwFU)
And classical music is also used in various commercials and trailers: Beethoven - Symphony No. 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjx_GyJbhsU&t=10s)
Not to mention the extraordinary classical inspired music you can find in the niche within a niche Japanese anime/game-indie scene, from solo artists to collaborations:
SANCTUS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgZ4YlzwUnM) (Baroque lives!!!)
And how about taking a complete random pick of a fresh anime newcomer…. Ryo Kawasaki it is… do you want to know his biggest classical idol?!:
Brahms - Orchestra Arrange (https://soundcloud.com/ryo-kawasaki/gs2kqpkfuty5)

And this wonderful little project was brought to my attention: Animation project for Vivaldi's four seasons (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/daily-briefs/2017-06-15/animation-project-for-vivaldi-the-four-seasons-to-also-open-crowdfunding-on-kickstarter/.117544)
But also not the first time an Anime music video has been made for a classical piece: Tchaikovsky - Manfred (Music Video) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB56qFLo9og&t=1m41s)

Various openings from anime projects illustrate this point quite well also:

Cras numcqam scire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WjZuC6IElY) (this show has some great self-contained episodes)
Elfenlied - Lilium (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KokfYulpSqA) (One of the most beautiful anime ops ever made)
Aria the Arietta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsUm6u8qXAk)(Aria is one of the greatest anime experiences I ever had)
Spice and Wolf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN_WgwEmRaw) (the show's also a gem)
Berserk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhEzb-FCFnk) (still can't fathom how abyssmal the current TV adaption is)
Broken Blade - Fate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB8_w7XdW_I)
Kado - The Right Answer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyT2wbvXytk)
Lupin III: Italiano (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvaosZlQqrY) (I liked it a lot)
ACCA 13 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pITNm95Sd1k) (I liked that show a lot as well)
Yuri on Ice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORDXWrL5EuQ)


And for the big finish, how about a Japanese live-action adaption of a classical music manga, with an equally dedicted anime version: Tchaikovsky - 1812 (Nodame vers.) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFKa9DouO8Y&t=1m27s)[/CENTER]






Now moving on to the second chapter, American Culture in Japanse Anime:

„I don’t care what color they are. As long as they can play the music it’s supposed to be played and swing, they could have purple skin for all I care” – Miles Davis, Jazz Legend.

The second major collection is about American culture, particularly Jazz culture and what made it great in the past and kicking off the rails in Japan right now! Again, here’s a little essay I would recommend before diving in:



Tokyo’s Thriving Jazz Scene

A few years ago a friend took me to Samurai, a jazz bar in Tokyo’s Shinjuku district whose owner, a haiku poet, stood behind the bar surrounded by thousands of maneki neko—smiling, waving cat figurines. He had a primitive video camera trained on the sleeve of the record album he was playing, and he projected that image onto the wall. Samurai had its own quirks, but it wasn’t an unusual type of place: The jazz bar and its cousin, the jazz kissaten, a coffee shop focused on jazz, are shrines to recorded music, dreamlands for high-fidelity obsessives. They offer a kind of jazz experience based on pure appreciation of the act of listening.

In Tokyo I track down James Catchpole, an American expat and jazz expert who goes by the very Japanese-sounding nickname of Mr. OK Jazz, to understand what’s happening right now to Japanese jazz culture. “When these kissa started back in the ’50s and ’60s, Tokyo apartments were too small to play music in,” Catchpole says. “Imported records were really expensive. Jazz kissa were the only places in the city where fans could listen to the music they loved.” The coffee shops became hideaways where jazz lovers could relax, hear new records and learn about trends like free jazz from others who knew the music well. In the ’60s, when jazz was allied with Japanese university counterculture, jazz kissa became organizing centers for the student protests that rocked Japan. But of course Japanese people no longer need to visit a bar or caf� to listen to recorded jazz. “Are jazz kissa going to survive?” I ask Catchpole.

“Go to Kissa Sakaiki and find out,” he says.

Tokyo’s tiny caf�s, bars and restaurants are notoriously difficult to locate. Even with a GPS-equipped iPhone, a print atlas and the help of police guarding a nearby embassy, I spend half an hour wandering the back streets of Yotsuya, a residential Tokyo neighborhood not far from Shinjuku, before I turn the corner and see the discreet sign for Sakaiki.

What makes places like Sakaiki or the Bob Dylan bar survive and sometimes prosper is the fragmentation of bar, caf� and restaurant culture in Tokyo. An eight-seat pub stands out in New York as supremely small, yet in Tokyo there are at least three nightlife neighborhoods consisting almost entirely of eight-seat bars. You don’t need many fans of whatever it is you’re into to support a bar, caf� or restaurant devoted to that obsession.

When I enter Sakaiki, owner Fumito Fukuchi, wearing a gray newsboy cap turned backward, waves me to the bar. Seated next to me is a Swedish free-jazz clarinetist speaking English to a group of Japanese. I tell Fukuchi that Mr. OK Jazz sent me. He nods a welcome and serves me a cold beer. The place is small, warm and gently lit, with a green-shaded banker’s lamp shining on the album cover of the record he’s playing. I ask Fukuchi how he came to run Sakaiki.

“I was a salaryman working in IT until 2007,” he tells me, as he cleans, inspects and preps the next record in his rotation. “Jazz kissa were my hobby,” he says, leading me to a coffee table covered in matchboxes from the jazz kissa of Tokyo. He picks up a matchbook that reads, “Eagle.” “This is the first one I ever visited. It’s right here in Yotsuya. I read the owner’s book about jazz when I was a teenager in Hokkaido. As soon as I came to Tokyo, I headed for Eagle.” Many of the matchbooks Fukuchi flips through are from jazz kissa that have long been closed. And all the other jazz kissa he knows of in Tokyo, he tells me, are run by men a decade or two older than he is—and he’s 41.

The obvious question is why go out of your way to hear recorded music with other people when technology has made it easy to listen alone? The answer comes to me as I look around the room at the people brought together by the music Sakaiki has collected: International jazz musicians, local workers and jazz fans from all over the city are here because they appreciate the act of listening to a record together. It’s a pleasure that the Walkman or iTunes just can’t provide.

By Tom Downey, SMITHSONIAN MAGAZIN


Vinphonic presents

Tokyo III Jazz Night
American Culture in Japanese Anime
A Renaissance of Jazz, Funk and Rock&Roll



PW: SwingAllNight (https://anon.click/lakuv37)
Sample: What the heck is Anime Jazz? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nEfWNEMeSc)

American culture (Golden 20s, Jazz, Broadway, Old Disney and Rock&Roll) certainly leaved a mark in Japan. But it’s not just music, the fashion, cuisine and flair of the ideal golden Americana lives on in various media and daily Japanese life. Cowboy Bebop and Space Dandy were so adored by especially Americans because it represents this distilled essence of American culture. And it continues to this day with projects like Baccano to 91 Days. It’s no surprise we are hearing so much Jazz every anime season.

Here I’ve selected 60 tracks of the best of various Jazz styles and genres we can hear aplenty in Japanese Animation. I think this collection examplifies the “coolness” factor I believe Anime holds for many young Japanse (and western) music artists and why it is currently the greatest visual medium for expression and creative (musical) talent. Not that Iwasaki wouldn’t be example enough. Everything is in there from Bebop to Gospel, and all so wonderfully out of time, all styles and cultures accumulating, for sexual innuendos, smooth criminals and shady bars. And it all got that swing! A renaissance of Jazz in all flavors, under one banner: Anime Jazz. My favorite kind of Jazz.


And with numerous indie groups and bar scenes in Tokyo, countless Big Band and Jazz Band tributes to Anime and Games and of course the upcoming “months of Jazz” we can be sure it has secured a special place in Japanese culture:

I’LL BE YOUR 1-UP GIRL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbR_pCRPDTg)
SING SING SING (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGGwyb0d0Y8) (now this is the Hayashi I like)
Kakegurui (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m9EC_iuJmw) (I sense real artistry from one or two composer from their unit so lets see how it will end up)
Princess Principal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW3skpmMMzs) (even Kajiura does it!)

The “rose-colored” America can be found in numerous anime projects from Cowboy Bebop to Baccano to Love Live to Blood Blockade Battlefront. And if you want to fondly remember the heights of american“pop culture”, there’s no one better to listen to than Shiro Sagisu (his songbooks are great pop works if nothing else). Occasionally there’s also a huge amount of class inspired by that ideal Americana you find in the occasional anime/game project:

Cowboy Bebop - Ask DNA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofSLCFxJ8Jo) (very good movie)
Baccano - Guns & Roses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOZ1hsb8smQ) (really liked the show)
Onihei (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWjqvLEoXWg) (didn't hold my interest for long)
Death Parade - Flyers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DwbXmr70C0) (interesting show but not as strong as the OP implies)
Rakugo Shinjuu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K28Lcc-MdJs) (good show)
Garo - Bloody Brother (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aziPdaZAbs)
Persona 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lswcZg7BH2M) (aka greatest JRPG in years)
Persona 4: Dance! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3jw89oIjmQ)
Space Dandy - Viva Namida (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI9aye8uTCk)
King Gainer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPKULArJNCQ) (one of the greatest anime openings ever made)
Samurai Champloo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OuRajFzMYI) (some pretty good episodes)

Not to mention how a children’s show occasionally turns into Broadway:

Heartcatch Precure - Tomorrow Song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnXjWaZaFMg)
Princess Precure - Dreamroad to the Future (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUfLt7pB6t0)
Precure all stars -Haru no Carnival (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxuTiW5_3b0)
And I don't think I have to point out which scene this is inspired by: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh_NE4YF9Mg&t=33s



And here’s a sample from the thousands of Jazz fan albums floating around:

Moe Jazz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o1MW3QoQME&index=3&list=PLJIhLbDdr8NNJTCNy2E3PXxySkz7TK0MW) (not for the faint of heart)
Touhou Jazz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkL3fSYBOf8&index=8&list=PLJIhLbDdr8NNJTCNy2E3PXxySkz7TK0MW)

And, for the big finish, how about some animated Jazz Session (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ounHSQvu9Yc)[/CENTER]



So that about does it, but before I leave you with much amazing music to marvel at, especially when its compiled and presented this way, I think these poignant words from the full second essay need to be highlighted:


“Part of what’s going on (in Tokyo) is simply the globalization of taste, culture, cuisine and the way that, in the modern world, you can get almost anything everywhere. But Japanese Americana and Japanese European Style is more than that. There’s a special way that the Japanese sensibility has focused on what is great, distinctive and worthy of protection in American and European culture, even when Americans or Europeans have not realized the same thing. It isn’t a passing fad. It’s a long-standing part of Japanese culture, and, come to think of it, as more Americans and Europeans are exposed to products, music or visual art revived or reinterpreted by Japanese designers, artists and musicians, the aesthetic is essentially becoming part of American and European culture, too. If you ever wonder which of the reigning American and European tastes, sounds, designs or styles will last into the future, there’s no better place to answer that question than in the stores and restaurants, the bars and studios, the television and computer screens of Japan. They often know us better than we know ourselves.”

nextday
06-23-2017, 08:28 PM
Hisaishi also did a sequel to that Deep Sea Creatures (Thread 186169) NHK special from 2013. The first episode of Deep Ocean aired last summer and the last two episodes are scheduled to air this summer.

He has a setlist that he's been playing at concerts, but a CD release hasn't been announced yet.


Edit: Oh, and Grant Kirkhope was announced as the composer of that Mario Rabbids game. Music was recorded in Prague. Sample (with some SFX): http://picosong.com/W3v5/

MonadoLink
06-24-2017, 12:51 AM
I'm gonna have to buy Xenoblade 2's soundtrack for sure.
You can hear what similarities lie in wait https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Z9fIbLf_c
Manami Kiyota is definitely present

ladatree
06-24-2017, 10:19 AM
Here's that Shiro Hamaguchi thing that I hyped up (I dunno if anyone cared but you may now)



Next Senki EHRGEIZ ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK
Music by Shiro Hamaguchi and Akifumi Tada
Company: Victor Entertainment

What in the hell is EHRGEIZ you may ask. Well this isn't the PSX game, but in fact the first late night anime, a mecha show Next Senki EHRGEIZ. Despite this the show has been obscure AS FUCK BOI. Released only on VHS in Japan and still nearly 20 years later there has not even been a DVD release. The show was dubbed into English by Bandai (known as Anime Village) although not all episodes were. You can still watch this show on the internet you'll just have to find it. And deal with super duper small resolution.
This soundtrack is the first thing that both Shiro 'N' Tada did and is full of orch action and rock guitars. I had EHRGEIZ to get this and now I have and now you can hear it too.
Format: 320K MP3
File Size: 181 MB
Download it here boi:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B62SfpeS8K_IQUI2eDJ5ME1TT28

Vinphonic
06-24-2017, 12:38 PM
I had EHRGEIZ to get this

He! Also da sag ich doch mal DANKE!


Really really grateful for this :)

FrDougal9000
06-24-2017, 01:18 PM
About three weeks ago, I did a post for the Tomb Raider Suite Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1636910846/the-tomb-raider-suite

Basically, it's a Kickstarter to fund a live studio recording and eventual album release of the Tomb Raider Suite, a 90 minute orchestral arrangement of Nathan McCree's music for the first three Tomb Raider games. The funding goal was �160,000, which was reached in the last day or so. This means that the project will be going ahead, with recording to be done in August and for the album to be released worldwide by November!

If you'd like to donate to the project, there's still 10 hours left in the Kickstarter campaign. Regardless, I'm glad to see this happen, and I'll be looking forward to its release in the coming months. I hope it's good!

ladatree
06-24-2017, 01:31 PM
I don't speak German actually. I was just trying to lOl
But I see the word dank so it must mean it's pretty lit

nextday
06-24-2017, 05:03 PM
Hirano's Hunter x Hunter suite is 20 minutes long. I hope we will hear it one day.

Program
Concert Overture
"The World of Adventurers" (3 minutes)

Symphonic Suite
"Hunter x Hunter" (17 minutes)
I.   Kingdom of Predators
II.  Requiem Aranea
III. Riot
IV. Hegemony of the Food Chain
V.  In the Palace - Agitato
VI. Rasetsu
VII.  The Last Mission

Vinphonic
06-25-2017, 12:24 AM
Really loving EHRGEIZ... Akifumi Tada is another one of those underused talents that prefer to work on the sideline when they really should be playing with the big boys.

Sirusjr
06-25-2017, 03:19 AM
I'm gonna have to buy Xenoblade 2's soundtrack for sure.
You can hear what similarities lie in wait https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Z9fIbLf_c
Manami Kiyota is definitely present

What the hell? I thought Sawano was doing the music for that game. Now they're saying Mitsuda?

nextday
06-25-2017, 06:27 AM
What the hell? I thought Sawano was doing the music for that game. Now they're saying Mitsuda?
They brought back the original composer team (Mitsuda, ACE, Kiyota) and a lot of the music has already been recorded in a concert hall.

Edit: Mariam Abounnasr seems to be involved too. They had a recording with the Bratislava Symphony Choir a few weeks ago.

Sirusjr
06-25-2017, 08:40 PM
Oh LOL I got Xenoblade Chronicles X confused with Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Never played X because it was the only thing I was interested in for the Wii U.

Vinphonic
06-25-2017, 10:03 PM
I wonder regarding that Shaow of the Colossus remake... is it confirmed that Otani is working on it? Because I just can't imagine them using the same recording. Kow Otani at Abbey Road would be quite a sight to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdZQ98mWeto





A blast from the past:


Greetings everyone, to start 2010, I give you one of Mark Mancina's best works (if not the best).
He (and Hans Zimmer) composed music for an anime for the first time and I must say that I enjoy the result alot more than his usual movie soundtracks.
This is the Limited Edition of his work, edited by myself ( I removed and altered some tracks and made new ones).
I hope you will like it:





Mark Mancina

Blood + [Limited Edition]

Produced by Hans Zimmer
Orchestrated by Dave Metzger
Advised by Yoshihiro Ike

https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/ar0/2c4b36e9914647c3a79777f89e923af7https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/ar0/acbef0e080ac475598f6c3316d3d4081


Download (mediafire) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/moxwzyzymmy/Blood+ Symphony.7z)



Album arranged by Vinphonic

Tracklist (86:13):

01. Witness the Fear (Prologue)
02. Awakening
03. Saya ... Fight!
04. Operation Red Shield
05. Research Facility Infiltration
06. Blood and Blade
07. Destiny of Bloodlines (Main Theme)
08. Curse of a Diva
09. Saya's Servant
10. Diva's Song
11. Vampire Domination
12. Saya vs. Diva
13. A Broken Promise
14. Bonds between Sisters (Credits)


Note: Diva's Song is the only track on this album that is unchanged. The best thing Remote Control ever achieved in my opinion.

EDIT from the future: Seven years later and it's still the best thing Mancina (and Remote Control for that matter) ever did. At World's End came close and Backdraft was 50% Shirley Walker so that does not count.

tangotreats
06-26-2017, 04:48 AM
Hello, just a quick one to say I'm not dead - I went on holiday a day after the forum went down and I've been in the land of no internet (Kentucky, US) - a lot of catching up here to be done here, I see... :)

Edit: Your customary miserable Tangotreats rebuttal... (Not ALL of it negative, surprisingly!) ;)

> Yuri on Ice and Kemono Friends get orchestral concerts, so we finally have reached the next step in the ongoing Japanese concert craze...

Popular franchise gets concert series! Neither of these franchises has any music that's worth playing in the concert hall. All the orchestral music in Yuri was (admittedly carefully constructed and tasteful) pastiches of classical music. I'd rather hear that...

> Japanese Racing Game gets orchestral score recorded in Hollywood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bvFI7CinN8

This may be the most generic, unimaginative orchestral adventure theme since Oschmann's BoUT. It's amazing to hear something like this in a motor racing game, but to me it's exactly that kind of over-orchestrated cookie-cutter music that drives me crazy. Is the Hollywood recording confirmed? Do we know who the composer is? Do we know if there will be any more score in this style or is it likely that this is a short promotional piece designed to sell the game and that the rest of it will be your usual macho racing game trash - hard rock and metal?

> Also notice how casually the studio director happens to be a composer too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75hq3FW7S9w&t=2m37s

Looks like he can just play the piano...

> Go Shiina with massive orchestra and choir confirmed for Code Vein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acDwZpBo8o8 (another Aria of Light please)

Sounds like the usual badly recorded Shiina-sized ensemble, to me - though it is promising... maybe the rest of the score will be decent.

> - Yasunori Mitsuda recorded a nice orchestral score (probably cutscenes) for Xenoblade 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbOv8xneR4Y

Nice and fluffy, same as the last Mitsuda score and the one before that and the one before that...

> So glad they keep going the Jazz route for the next big Mario, but we probably can expect some grand orchestral pieces judging by the synth demos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGQHQc_3ycE

I always felt that going orchestral in Mario wasn't a good idea - the big band stuff is bouncy and fun like Mario should be. I don't hear any orchestral music, synth demo or otherwise, in the video you posted. Since there hasn't been any respectable orchestral music in a Mario game since Galaxy 2 (seven years ago) I'm not holding my breath for the sudden appearance of something wonderful.

> Episode 10 of Kado is the best thing Iwashiro wrote in recent memory, if you want to exlude his symphonic Arslan. And of course its blu-ray bonus

Love the beginning, very daring style of storytelling there, breathtaking and emotional... scored to absolute perfection...

> Likewise, episode 10 of Virgin Soul was beautiful. No soundtrack confirmed yet but we have Shadowverse as an appetizer out on Jul, 19

Lovely grown-up music from Ike, and scoring to picture is the icing on the cake...

> Toshiyuki Watanabe will be scoring the new Mazinger...

Nice choice, although I hope he doesn't fall into the "must slavishly duplicate my father's score to show reverence" trap that completely ruined the Miyagawa's Yamato.

Vinphonic
06-26-2017, 12:33 PM
Edit: Your customary miserable Tangotreats rebuttal...

To be honest, thread wouldn't be the same without it ;)


I never would have guessed that Iwashiro would actually win a season for me (if I don't count Oshima), with an actually good show (despite the tropes). And a composer being involved in every aspect of an anime production is a rare case, of the top of my head only Simoun springs to mind.

He's closely followed by Ike who is unfortunately held back by a lacklustre show overall (where's my D&D adventure?) but he still managed to present us some showpieces. I hope the second cour turns it up a notch.

PonyoBellanote
06-26-2017, 01:19 PM
For once, I kinda agree with you, tango, GTS' music seriously looks generic and lacks any pure musical originality. Besides it doesn't even fit in such a racing game..

As for Mario, I also agree with the jazzy vibes, though I loved the orchestral vibes of Galaxy - but you could say those fitted in Galaxy, but the latest colorful 3D Marios fit the jazzy vibe perfectly. Long as it's played live, bring it on to me.

nextday
06-26-2017, 02:24 PM
Nice choice, although I hope he doesn't fall into the "must slavishly duplicate my father's score to show reverence" trap that completely ruined the Miyagawa's Yamato.
It was over 40 years ago... so even if he did borrow a theme from his father, I'm not sure anyone would notice. In any case, the series has already gone through numerous composers in the past (one of them, coincidentally, being Akira Miyagawa) and it didn't result in any shameless rehashes of the original music. Plus, Watanabe's father is still alive (91) so the feeling of "must honor his legacy" hasn't kicked in yet.


Besides it doesn't even fit in such a racing game..
Not that that's ever stopped Japan before. Remember the time they sent someone to Warsaw to record music for a train simulator?: http://picosong.com/Wkyy/

tangotreats
06-26-2017, 04:56 PM
I think it FITS wonderfully... but it's just such an also-ran theme, it's the musical equivalent of writing a book exclusively in clich�s and tropes - I wonder why they bother when the music libraries are literally bulging at the seams with optimistic, major-key inspirational adventure themes that sound EXACTLY like this one. It drives me potty. It sounds like an American orchestra, recorded in one of the big Hollywood scoring stages. Imagine if Hirano, or Tajima, or Yamashita got their hands on this one. I love the sound, I think it's a beautiful way to score the game completely against expectations... but seriously... we've ALL heard this theme a thousand times already... They barely needed to put any music in front of the musicians, so intuitive and unimaginative and paint-by-numbers is this piece.


It was over 40 years ago... so even if he did borrow a theme from his father, I'm not sure anyone would notice. In any case, the series has already gone through numerous composers in the past (one of them, coincidentally, being Akira Miyagawa) and it didn't result in any shameless rehashes of the original music. Plus, Watanabe's father is still alive (91) so the feeling of "must honor his legacy" hasn't kicked in yet.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't mind if he quotes themes or makes references - actually I really hope he does - but I don't want this to become a carbon copy of the original. I want Watanabe to approach this as HIS original score that makes tasteful and appropriate references to the original, not some anonymous 1970s noodling interspersed with huge, invasive bursts of the original theme to make people cry out "OH I KNOW THAT TUNE OH YEAH FEELS FROM MY CHILDHOOD!!!!!!!!!!"

I bought the Miyagawa score - it was my first ever major anime album regret. Akira Miyagawa is very little more than Hiroshi Miyagawa's son. Watanabe is a fine composer in his own right and I hope he gets to give his all for Mazinger.

PonyoBellanote
06-26-2017, 08:20 PM
Wataru Hokojama did AFRIKA and that was fantastic, also worked with Hollywood. I wish he could get more into videogames with a classical/orchestral music beat.

2egg48
06-27-2017, 01:47 AM
Good the forums are back.


Damn, well at least the forums are back. We need a backup plan

Wasn't there a backup forums made a few years ago?

the marvin
06-27-2017, 07:22 AM
Vinphonic has put together some great compilations here: Thread 215484


I feel like that might be a little overwhelming for a new traveler ;)
I've reuploaded my more general introduction to the world of Japanese music:




Vinphonic presents:



The Art of Film Scoring
The Music of Japanese Entertainment
1995-2015








This is a colossal conglomeration of quality film music from the Japanese Entertainment Industry. In total I created 10 volumes with over 20 hours of the creme de la creme of Japanese "film" music of the last 20 years with a clear focus on contemporary orchestral music.

I divided the volumes into general categories but when I arranged it all I did realize just how much quality classical inspired orchestral music rooted in Hollywood traditions with symphonic structure there actually is in Japanese Animation/Anime. It is by far the biggest chunk of the collection and the first four volumes are all about animation, a clear winner in terms of quality AND quantity. I think there is currently no place in the world where more film and classical music is written by a huge quantity of experts (by old Hollywood standards, some even in their early 30s) and performed by traditional studio and symphony orchestras than in the Japanese Anime Industry.

Volume five and six are all about where you would normally expect to hear grand Hollywoodesque epic film music in style of Williams/Horner/Goldsmith. It's now 2016 and there are still countless scores recorded with studio and symphony orchestras like it's 1977 or even 1959.

With volume seven and eight we venture into video game territory and there's no shortage of "film" music here as well. I also realized just how big the "RPG" video game genre actually is in Japan. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with all the numerous historical series out there and some now even older than I am :0 (and I even post here right now because of one). But you can go so far as to say that this genre of video game music is more rooted in classical, symphonic film music than any other and the respective volume is a true testament to its greatness. Even in 2016 there's already two symphonic albums with full symphony orchestras announced and I'm sure the genre will get blessed with countless more.

The eight orchestral volumes also show the deep connection of Japanese composers, arrangers and music producers with European Symphony Orchestras. Worldclass orchestras like the "The Warsaw National Philharmonic Orchestra", "The Moscow Symphony Orchestra", "The Tokyo Philharmonic" and even the worldbest "London Symphony Orchestra" have all performed and are still performing numerous scores for Japanese Anime, Games, Films and Television. The same orchestra that played STAR WARS also played three equally fantastic symphonic Sci-Fi scores for GUNDAM. In fact Japanese orchestral composers usually go overseas, most of the time to eastern europe, if they can afford it and if the budget is ludicrous they even make their way to London because most are simply commited to the art of Film scoring and doing the best you can with the money you have for the love of music.

Yes there are numerous "Zimmeresque" scores as well in Japan but not only are they still offering a unique voice instead of sounding all the same but overall it is a country that values MUSIC over sound design. It is a country with a high level musical education system, strong love for classical music, numerous symphony orchestras and concert bands and equally eager composers who write music for them.

The last two volumes are not exactly orchestral but nonetheless show the massive diverseness of quality film music, ranging from frantic Jazz to soft piano sonatas. Another face of Japanese entertainment is experimentalism and a mix of very differnt genres in the same score. It is not at all unusal to find a baroque flute piece in combination with progressive Jazz and Sch�nbergian Dissonance, in the same piece even. You can find pretty much any genre and style of Jazz there is in Japanese scores and an even greater number in fan albums from small and big bands. Jazz is far from dying in Japan, in fact it's very much alive.

The last volume finishes on an intimate note but it has to be said, Japanese Entertainment just excells at intimacy, loveliness and cuteness far more than any other industry on earth. There's an insane amount of delicate piano and string pieces, most in classical and romantic style, heartwarming, sugary cute and with addicting melodies. This country perfected the terms "lovely" and "cute" to an artform.

In Japan there is truely a renaissance of all things wonderful, music-wise. Not only the revival of Jazz but more importantly Baroque or classical style orchestral music... and oh boy, there's a lot.
If I may go a bit historical, I think the Japanese did with "our" orchestral music what they once did with our firearms. Almost the very first thing the Japanese did when the Portuguese brought them firearms was "to make them ourselves and improve it". A few decades later there were more firearms produced and used in Japan than in the ENTIRETY of europe.

I think the same kind of ingenuity happended with orchestral music. Now we have more classical-baroque-romantic-modern-hollywood orchestral music produced in Japan than anywhere else in the world. And almost no one knows of it.


I created every volume with a concert listening experience in mind and thus made numerous concert suites and medleys, I believe all will work well in the concert hall and I hope some influencal listeners take some inspiration to avoid the usual missteps of the normal "hip" concert program with "The Greatest Video Game Music...Call of Duty...and Minecraft" (Ouch) and "The Greastes Anime Hits...Naruto, Bleach and Attack on Titan" (yawn)
Many orchestral pieces were remastered to improve the listening experience with the greatest attention to quality, all were edited in FLAC if possible and then converted to MP3 V0 (It's just too massive in FLAC). The only downside to Japanese scores is usually the "sound" and that involves the mastering as well. Most of the scores recorded in Europe are fine but it's another matter with domestic recorded scores. I can say with confidence that it just sounds much better, especially if you are used to the european classical and the traditonal Hollywood sound. I realized if I want to remaster every Japanese score I love that it would take years, and all that time and work without getting paid... oh what a man does for his love for music.

With all that said I hope you can find the time and dive into the wonderful world of Japanese Entertainment.


Vol. 1 "Filmlike and classical" (https://anon.click/qadaq64)

Vol. 2 "Classical, Jazz, Love, Fusion" (https://anon.click/laqiw15)


PW: 1995



Feel free to share, spread and recommend but don't forget to credit

If you are intrigued you can also check out my Twitter channel (http://twitter.com/Vinphonic) where I will post new and old fantastic music from time to time. You can go to my youtube channel through that. If you like my work you can leave a small tip if you want.

Enjoy!

After going through that I would recommend to dive into my monster post.



@nextday: Shame about Black Clover, but hey Misa Chujo is back :D (and Mori Yuya at least scored a film)

And on a sidenote, Evan Call made it big, not only landed a major action series this summer but is also in charge of Kyoani's next flagship title (the commercial was most likely scored by him). Also Akito Matsuda will be quite busy... FOUR major motion pictures, continuing with a film for a franchise he wrote his best orchestral effort so far.

@Tango: Most excellent! I wonder if his PuzzleXDragon will get a release, pls no more Gaist Crushers...


@Zipper: Yes, astonishing, but we will most likely never find out the reason why he stepped down but you can't tell me there's no demand for the music he loves to write, I still hear it in various anime series and films and once in a while there comes a genius project like Spice and Wolf, Dantalian or Ouran where they approach the music from the angle of writing and producing it on a level that it would not feel out of place during the era or place of inspiration. We simply have to hope that such a project will appear with his name attached sometime in the future.

Thanks, I'll check those out! :)

The Zipper
06-27-2017, 08:02 AM
Since everyone is back I guess it's time for more Iwasaki trivia:

http://popoyumi.web.fc2.com/index/hataraku_occhan/sp/N-20131025.htm

Apparently he has a tendency to go over budget but is always willing to pay out of his own pocket to finish something. For instance, he hired an extra recording engineer for Black Butler II, which brought recording costs up to triple digit grands. For all his whining, he certainly has the artistic integrity to back it up.

(The entire interview is extremely fascinating and provides great insight as to how music is scored and cut up for use in anime vs films- definitely worth a read even through all the broken Google translated English. Unsurprisingly the greatest difficulty is that cue placement is all over the map thanks to poor planning and bad schedules as you would expect from anime production.)

tangotreats
06-27-2017, 11:01 AM
That is actually fairly terrifying. If you're judicious with your expenditure, you can remote-record a four hours of orchestral score with an 80-piece ensemble for �100,000 - how the hell is Iwasaki spending that amount on Black Butler?

The actual process must be absolute murder. Sometimes the planning goes better than others - but you know something went wrong when you hear the same cue three times an episode. Though it isn't touched upon in that document, some composers I think respond better to different scoring techniques. Yoshihiro Ike barely interested me before, but then came Bahamut, scored to picture, and suddenly it was like he was born to work like this. I like the way a score-to-picture works, but I also like the idea of creative freedom coming from a composer writing without being constrained by the need to hit action points. I think this was easier in the "old days" (at least in the West) when films were constructed with the shape and breathing space of an opera - so having your basic structure dictated by the film wasn't really a bad thing because it was a structure inherently compatible with musicality. Half the problem is, of course, modern composers having a poor understanding of dramatic flair and not understanding of the way music actually moves, but the other half of the problem is that the films they are asked to accompany don't have that natural ebb and flow and don't lend themselves to the "music as poetry" style that has been, time and time again, responsible for the very best film scores ever written.

I think Mike touched on this in a video some time ago - I may remember incorrectly, but I think it was along the lines that he considered that it would be impossible to write John Williams' original Star Wars score today, even if a composer of the required calibre were available and s/he was encouraged to write like that, because films themselves are built so radically differently.

Anyway, I digress - my apologies. Thank you for the fascinating article! :)


Wataru Hokojama did AFRIKA and that was fantastic, also worked with Hollywood. I wish he could get more into videogames with a classical/orchestral music beat.

It hurts me so badly that Afrika is approaching its tenth birthday. Hokoyama came out of nowhere and wrote a score that was utterly wonderful and massively popular... and not once since has he produced anything of even CLOSE to the same calibre - and worse still, the work he is most well-known for in recent years is orchestration - specifically slathering on as many orchestral special effects as possible to give the (almost successful) illusion of scores like Ace Combat actually being good scores.

Vinphonic
06-27-2017, 12:32 PM
Well, since Mike is actually also a CGI artist and film director (a composer of his caliber does not get payed anymore afterall) and quite knowledgeable about the insides of the Hollywood industry... let me just say it's not JUST the music that has been getting worse the last 20 years. Not just a score like Star Wars but also a FILM like Star Wars could never be done in today's Hollywood climate. A film INSPIRED by old mythology and Golden Age kitsch, with a classical theater structure by an educated director who loves classical music and opera (George Lucas). Giving such young upstarts a ludicrous budget and just have faith in their skill as a director (who can do as he pleases) that it will turn a profit somehow and if not, oh well, better luck next time... impossible in today's corporate-controlled environment.

And even if they give such freedom to todays generation of directors... well Holkenberg already pointed this out, most are just satisfied with electronic loops because, unlike Japan, we don't teach classical music as a mandatory study subject in school anymore to get some beauty and culture into our brains, so that we can touch others by our music on a fundamental level and establish a common sense for a universal standard in music. Music is just something you put in the background and that's that.


I think it's best to read the immortal words from Mike himself:


Expectation is relative. If all you've ever had a choice between eating was a bowl of shit and a bowl of woodchips, people will mostly eat the woodchips, and then come to decide which are the really good woodchips, and even love, truly love some woodchips. But they've never had a steak. And woodchips suck. It's relative. Nobody is complaining about today's scores; most of the audience hasn't grown up on good scores, either. The expectation is relative.

But you know what's absolute? Longevity. The final measure of this music will be known in 30, 40, 50+ years. If it is still cherished and present, then it was worthy. Williams still sells out theaters to play Jaws, from 1975. Check in on Rogue One's ticket sales in 40 years and get back to me. But I've said this before; and I've also said we just have to make a choice. We do not have to be good to work, or succeed in today's impossibly-low-standards market. You need a pulse and a computer. Yay! But if you want to be good, good is good, and time is watching.

PonyoBellanote
06-27-2017, 01:25 PM
It hurts me so badly that Afrika is approaching its tenth birthday. Hokoyama came out of nowhere and wrote a score that was utterly wonderful and massively popular... and not once since has he produced anything of even CLOSE to the same calibre - and worse still, the work he is most well-known for in recent years is orchestration - specifically slathering on as many orchestral special effects as possible to give the (almost successful) illusion of scores like Ace Combat actually being good scores.

I feel you completely. It's as if it's a total waste of talent, but that's nothing new in this field. I really don't know why more people don't count on him for videogames that need a dose of orchestral vibe. It's a pity to me, also that the score is really, really short. You can listen to its entirety in the official album, for around half an hour and it's finished. And I'm not sure if there's unreleased cues, I think the album, is really the whole music you hear in the game. Also I WISH (though I know it won't happen, at all) that Columbia would reissue the album. I really want it in my collection, without having to shell 100 euros for it. If the game and score wasn't so forgotten today, it'd surely get a reissue (like how Parappa got it for the anniversary/remaster) Would it take so much work to reissue it? It'd be a dream come true.

Vinphonic
06-27-2017, 01:40 PM
Well considering Tajima did a gobsmacking, mesmerizing work for Katamari and then faded into obscurity, but then suddenly came back out of nowhere almost ten years later like Matsuo with Drifters, I would say chances are still high for another Afrika.



Interview with Wataru Hokoyama (January 2010)


Wataru Hokoyama is a classically-trained composer of game, film, and concert works. He has recently achieved his career breakthrough by working on the safari simulation Afrika and the horror title Resident Evil 5. While both are very different games, they share musical scores that hybridise Hollywood orchestrations with African instrument instruments. Both scores received considerable critical acclaim for both their high quality production values and effectiveness in context.

In this interview, Hokoyama recollects his experiences on these scores in considerable detail. He also discusses his recent experiences alongside Eminence, arranging six game and anime items for A Night in Fantasia 2009 and conducting a small ensemble for Promise. He also discusses his film works, concert commissions, and symphonic band for the first time, while teasing about a major upcoming project.

Interview Credits

Interview Subject: Wataru Hokoyama
Interviewer: Chris Greening
Editor: Chris Greening
Coordination: Don Kotowski, Chris Greening


Chris: First of all, thanks so much for joining us today. For those who don't know you, could you introduce yourself and dicuss your musical background and influences?

Wataru Hokoyama: Hello. This is Wataru Hokoyama, composer of Afrika. I've also worked on Resident Evil 5 as additional orchestral music composer and orchestrator. I was born in Aizu, Japan and I grew up there till I moved to the States at age 16 to study music. I graduated from Interlochen Arts Academy, The Cleveland Institute of Music and the University of Southern California, where I received my classical / orchestral and film scoring training.


Chris: It appears to be very difficult to make it into the industry these days. Why do you think this is and what sort of qualities do you need to overcome it? With respect to your own success story, what led you to be assigned to the scores for Resident Evil 5 and Afrika?

Wataru Hokoyama: This may sound "Yoda"-esque metaphor, but when it comes down to the trigger for any kind of success, I believe it's all about truly trusting that you're going to create and receive the opportunities you really want. That way, you become a great service to the world through doing what you love doing.

I got my Afrika job through my "manifestation." I kept on imagining that I'll be conducting an orchestra at a session of a video game music that I write, and I kept on visualizing it. I talked to my friends about how I'd love to score a video game too. Then one day, I got the offer out of nowhere. I just received one random e-mail asking me "Would you be interested in scoring for our game?" That experience sort of told me that, if I'm relaxed and know what I want, then it'll come. I know many of you might say "Oh that doesn't happen to everybody!" That may be true, but if you find this interesting, I'd love to recommend this manifestation and visualization to all of you who are reading this right now, and see what happens years down the road.

Resident Evil 5 came right after the Afrika session. The music producer of Afrika, Tommy Kikuchi, noticed my work and he recommended my name to the Resident Evil 5 team at Capcom. That's how I got connected with them.

Chris: The industry reaction to Afrika's score has been stunning with the Game Audio Network Guild and the Hollywood Music Awards being among those that honoured it. What features of the score propelled it towards being award-winning, even when the game itself didn't sell well? Did you specifically cater the soundtrack for stand-alone listening?

Wataru Hokoyama: My main purpose of composing music for film or video games is to serve the project by creating the atmosphere and the language of music that fits and helps the storytelling of each project. Whether it would work as stand-alone isn't a focus, but when it does, I feel like I got some extra miles from the airlines, because I get to travel the world with my music to conduct at concerts and whatnot. It is a great fun to perform my music live with orchestras, and I always love meeting the video game and film music fans in person at concerts.

One of the ideas that I had in writing for Afrika was to make the music sound like a huge Hollywood movie score. I wanted to succeed in writing cinematic music to video games to enhance the depth of the storytelling and the atmosphere, just like the quality of huge Hollywood films. I am very honored to be receiving so many awards, and I am grateful and happy that I was able to serve the game with my music!


Chris: On Resident Evil 5, you managed to blend a traditional horror sound with the epic tones of Hollywood action scores. Could you discuss in detail your approach to orchestration and conducting that allowed you to achieve this?

Wataru Hokoyama: The initial request was to make the music that very much sounded like huge Hollywood action soundtracks. I focused mainly on the opening and ending themes, as well as some of the climactic action themes. I took the sequenced horror-influenced original music written by Kota Suzuki and added hits, runs, secondary lines, and newly written short motives so that the piece would hold so much intensity. I subsequntly orchestrated for a 103 piece orchestra, where I added lots of percussion, huge walls of brass chords, woodwind runs, and a massive current of strings. I ensured each section interacted in a complex way to build a very powerful overall sound.

I conducted the orchestra at a session at the 20th Century FOX Newman Stage. My job was to communicate and lead the orchestra within the timeframe we were given and deliver the sound I was aiming for. I'm very happy to have found out that the Resident Evil 5 team at Capcom was happy with the result of this whole process, and I throughly enjoyed working with them. You know, Resident Evil 5 is extremely scary and intense game, but the people at Capcom are actually very easy going and fun to hang out with. I wanna go out and have a drink with them again.

Afrika

Chris: Both Resident Evil 5 and Afrika are set in Africa. What features of these scores were important for conveying a sense of Africa itself? Was it challenging to combine cinematic orchestration with African influences?

Wataru Hokoyama: I met up with a Los Angeles studio percussion player and went to his warehouse where he stores thousands of percussion instruments from around the world. Every percussion instrument you hear in Hollywood films is stored in that warehouse! It was an amazing sight. We spent several hours going through all the percussion instruments from Africa and other continents, and I picked a few of them that might speak well for the projects. Yes I've learned a lot about percussion through these two projects, which is awesome.


Chris: In September, you joined the Eminence Symphony Orchestra as a composer, orchestrator, and conductor for A Night in Fantasia 2009. Could you reminisce about your experiences at the event? More specifically, could you discuss how you approached the three game orchestrations?

Wataru Hokoyama: The conducting experience with the Eminence Symphony Orchestra was so much fun. I had a great time working with them. I arranged three game-related pieces for the concert. I closed the first half of the concert with a new interpretation of Ace Combat 5's orchestra and chorus epic "The Unsung War". In the second half, I was responsible for two expansive suites, own based on my own Afrika and another dedicated to the Hollywood-styled Gears of War 2, each of which is about ten minutes long. These will all be on the album release.

In terms of arrangements and orchestrations, I would generally receive MIDI files of the original works along with the MP3 files, and then I'd start arranging to fit to the instrumentation of the orchestra. Since the Eminence arrangements were going to be used for a live concert, the endings of each piece had to be gigantic and exciting. So I took the original motives of the pieces, and arranged them tinto codas that I wrote, so that the suites sounds connected throughout.


Chris: With Eminence, you have been involved in adapting Studio Ghibli's works at A Night in Fantasia 2009 and Makoto Shinzai's works in Promise. Were you previously familiar wih these works and what was it like to work with them? What did you aim to emphasise in your interpretations of these scores?

Wataru Hokoyama: I was very familiar with the Studio Ghibli's works and their music, and I had a lot of fun arranging Joe Hisaishi's scores. At the concert, we presented three symphonic suites in succession, dedicated to Laputa, My Neighbour Totoro, and Princess Mononoke, each of which brought a new facet to the experience. These will open the anime disc of the album release for the concert.

I was only involved in Promise as a conductor at a recording session fairly late in the production process. The team at Imagine were responsible for the arrangements here. I also had a great time in the studio working with them. The majority of this album is dedicated to intimate chamber ensemble arrangements, not epic orchestrations, so it was an interesting experience.

A Night in Fantasia 2009

Chris: Your musical interests extend beyond game and anime music. In your own perspective, how does composing for a film differ to that from a game? And more generally, how does composing soundtrack music differ from that of composing stand-alone pieces? Do you have any preferences on the type of medium you compose for?

Wataru Hokoyama: Film scores often work well when the music is transparent. It requires a lot of synchronising to ensure the music matches what is going on on the screen or the emotional changes of the characters and stories. I find video game scoring to be very similar, but it gives composers a bit more freedom in terms of synching (except for cinematic underscoring). Game music also allows composers to be more audible with their music.

Regardless of what medium I write my music for, there's still always so much space for creativity and fun, and I enjoy writing for varieties of field. I do love film score a lot, and I'm intending to write a lot more film scores from now on, but I love writing music for video games too and I love working with people in the video game industry. Once you establish a relationship / friendship with the people you work with, you treasure them. I am expanding the network and new relationships with various teams in the industry, so that we can create something amazingly fun.


Chris: Your film works often exhibit moods and styles not exhibited in your game works. What was it like to produce more intimate cues on Chiya, One, and Ocha Cups for Christmas? What were the unique challenges of integrating these cues into each film?

Wataru Hokoyama: Those particular films were very beautiful, emotionally rich, and subtle. The music for Chiyo, One, and Ocha Cups had to be transparent, yet it had to emphasise the emotions of the characters too, deepening the level of the emotions and setting the right mood of every scene. The challenge was to create the musical dialogues of the story and characters without being too prominent or being too hidden.


Chris: In recent years, you have also been commissioned to compose concert works from across the world. Could you discuss your compositions so far? I'm particularly excited to learn more about your ceremonial works for the U.S. Airforce Band and Imperial Family of Japan.

Wataru Hokoyama: Yes, I've been asked to create several concert works over the years. U.S. Airforce band commissioned to me to write a ceremonial piece for the Jamestown's settlement anniversary. The official ceremony of Imperial Family of Japan took place in my hometown Aizu. Both were created for symphonic band. It was fun to work with these two huge clients!

Aiza

Chris: In your hometown of Aizu, you also perform with your concert band. Could you tell us more about this band and your personal involvement? What are your plans for future performances?

Wataru Hokoyama: It's actually called the Wataru Band. It's an amateur symphonic band formed by my old friends and the former music students I taught a while ago. Basically, anyone who enjoys playing instruments can join from all over the world, and we have charity concerts every two years.

We are having a concert this summer on August 15, in Aizu, Fugado Hall. It's free of charge to come. We ask for donations for Wildlife Foundations, including the WWF, and we will perform various pieces from original band classics to film score and video games. We're planning on performing the symphonic band arrangement version of Afrika's "Savanna" this year.

It would be a very exciting event for many of you to come and even join to play with us. If anyone's interested, please go to my website, click on "Contact", and send me an e-mail. I'll forward you the info about the concert. Also Google "Aizu" � it's a beautiful historic town. It's worth a visit!


Chris: Thanks so much for talking to us today. With two major game projects under your belt, are you working on any game or other productions at the moment? Also, is there anything you'd like to say to your fans around the world?

Wataru Hokoyama: I'd love to share what I am doing right now, but I signed the NDA... and if I speak a word, I'll be in trouble! So please give me a bit of time until I'm able to share what I am doing.

And for those of you who listen to and enjoy my works, thanks so much for supporting my music! I receive fan mails and Facebook messages very frequently, and those sincere messages really mean a lot to me. I'll keep on enjoying writing exciting and beautiful music as much as I can, so please visit my website time to time, to check out what's new in my work. Thank you all so much!!!

Wataru Hokoyama: I got my Afrika job through my "manifestation." I kept on imagining that I'll be conducting an orchestra at a session of a video game music that I write, and I kept on visualizing it. I talked to my friends about how I'd love to score a video game too. Then one day, I got the offer out of nowhere. I just received one random e-mail asking me "Would you be interested in scoring for our game?" That experience sort of told me that, if I'm relaxed and know what I want, then it'll come. I know many of you might say "Oh that doesn't happen to everybody!" That may be true, but if you find this interesting, I'd love to recommend this manifestation and visualization to all of you who are reading this right now, and see what happens years down the road.



The Recording Videos (if anyone hasn't seen them yet):


Recording the Main Theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZx5_36jtqg&index=1&list=PLAY2aAj333Crn_YBPgR_DnguoU4L-EN8w)
Making of the score, with snippets in english (https://vimeo.com/22343286) (the comments by the players were just very subtle expression of worry at the time, today they are hidden cries for help)

PonyoBellanote
06-27-2017, 01:53 PM
I just want a reissue of the album (plus the DVD, if possible, it's 5.1).. how many spam emails do I have to send to Columbia?

I also accept gifts, if someone's willing to pay the expensive price and make me happy :169:

Obviously joking there.

The Zipper
06-27-2017, 03:29 PM
That is actually fairly terrifying. If you're judicious with your expenditure, you can remote-record a four hours of orchestral score with an 80-piece ensemble for �100,000 - how the hell is Iwasaki spending that amount on Black Butler?Has more to do with just the sound engineer I'm sure, but the biggest reasons probably tie in to how smaller instrumental ensembles are recorded over separate sections vs a giant ensemble that can knock out everything in one sitting. The sound engineer has to sit through all these extra recording sessions, which means he's getting paid a lot more. Black Butler II itself was also a much more symphonic work than any of Iwasaki's usual outings (and the last Iwasaki soundtrack that had almost zero electronics), so a lot more time and money was spent on those small ensembles. Of course, that begs the question of why Iwasaki didn't just go back to Warsaw again like his buddy Matsuo did for Hellsing to save the time if he was going to be spending that much money on it to begin with, but I guess he was still traumatized by Agito.

As for the whole "scored to picture" ordeal, I'm really curious to see how the next SW movie is going to use William's music since they claim it hasn't been temp tracked and was recorded before the actual filming began. If it follows the language of that JJ Abrams quick-cut style, it may end up sounding like Rogue One in the film.

nextday
06-27-2017, 04:31 PM
That is actually fairly terrifying. If you're judicious with your expenditure, you can remote-record a four hours of orchestral score with an 80-piece ensemble for �100,000 - how the hell is Iwasaki spending that amount on Black Butler?
The problem is that you're thinking in terms of western currency. For Japan, three digit is anywhere from �1,000,000 ($9000) to �9,999,999 ($90,000). The digit is calculated in terms of ten thousand, so �1,000,000 = 100*�10,000 making it a 3 digit sum. If he says that it brought the cost up to 3 digit, you can assume the final cost was on the very low end.

The Zipper
06-27-2017, 05:06 PM
^I don't really think that's the case. Aniplex is known to be pretty lavish with their musical budgets. For example Oshima had an 80-piece ensemble for Tempest recorded in Russia. Sawano had his domestic 40-piece strings ensemble. If it were on the low end I doubt anyone would have made a big deal out of it.

The difficulty of working with tiny recording spaces really drives up music costs more than it should. But then again, that entire backwards-thinking process is also how anime is made (i.e. ALL key animation has to be finished in a studio before it can be sent to another for in-betweens- the more logical way would have been to send it as it's being made piece-by-piece to save time and money, but nobody has ever bothered doing it that way, not even the great Studio Ghibli)

tangotreats
06-27-2017, 09:50 PM
I had assumed that The Zipper had made a rough currency conversion in his post, but if not, and we're talking about Yen, that would make a helluva lot more sense - although it then presents the alternative terrifying - if a Taku Iwasaki score could rise above $9,000 and that be considered expensive, there's no wonder so many scores are played by three real people plus a shit-tonne of crappy synths.

To go the Warsaw route, you have to be the kind of composer who is happy to get the *music* just right and have some leeway in how it is performed. I get the impression with Iwasaki that he's such an obsessive and a control freak that this would simply terrify him. He knows the exact sound he wants and he will move heaven and high water to get it - even to the extent of working with smaller, poorer quality ensembles over which he has a more granular control. It is not a style I would agree with, but I respect the man immensely. I would be very happy to write my music, send over the sheet music to Cheap Bulgarian Orchestral Recording Sweatshop Ltd and let them do the business - as long as the performance was of an overall good standard I'd be happy. Productions that send composers (+ team) to foreign countries are wasting money - nobody needs to even get out of BED let alone fly to Warsaw, or London, or Moscow, or wherever. The money they blow on (effectively) extravagant foreign holidays could pay for more music and/or a bigger orchestra.

If you were a composer and your budget would allow you 15 minutes of domestic recording, 30 minutes of Warsaw, or two hours of remote-recorded 80-piece orchestra in Bulgaria where you attended the recording sessions over Skype, which would you take? I'd take the route which resulted in the most completed music, and I would consider the quality drop from Warsaw to Bulgaria worth sustaining - because however bad they might be, they've GOT to be better than cramming 50 expensive Japanese players into some inadequate shit-hole studio (I'm looking at you, Sound Inn), recording them with a tone-deaf engineer, and ending up with a score that sounds like twenty people playing inside a toilet bowl...

I mean, you can do an hour long session with a 30 piece orchestra for $700, or you can splash out $1000 for a 60 piece. If you don't dither around or over-rehearse, you can get through 15 minutes of finished score, 10 minutes for comfort. OK, that would be the very lower tier of proceedings, but in 2017 it's possible to get a quarter of an hour of music recorded by a pretty good 60 piece orchestra for less than the price as ONE airline ticket from Tokyo to Warsaw - and you can attend the session from anywhere in the world in your pajamas. SERIOUSLY. What excuse does any project have for not doing this? The mind boggles that some Japanese projects have done with the "cheap shit score because we're saving all our money for 10 minutes of big orchestra for the grand finale" route - and spent thousands shipping people across the world for days and days to record literally a few minutes of music... WHY????

The Zipper
06-27-2017, 10:19 PM
I had assumed that The Zipper had made a rough currency conversion in his post, but if not, and we're talking about Yen, that would make a helluva lot more sense.How does that make any sense? On average an episode of anime costs around $100,000 to make. If an entire 13-24 episode series, which costs around 1-2 million dollars to make spends less than $1000 (technically triple digits) on music, it wouldn't even be enough to pay for one recording engineer. Iwasaki spends extra money to do all sorts of strange things, like flying all the way to the States for Jormungand just so he could work with a few vocalists in New York- that sort of thing adds a lot more than just a couple grand to the budget.

The problem with most anime isn't usually cash related, it's always with planning and logistics. A lot of cheap synth and electronica cues we hear aren't necessarily even because of budget, but because the director demanded a new action/comedy cue in the middle of the series and the episode was to be aired a week later, so the composer would have to throw something together really quickly in his/her studio without any time to even hire an ensemble. This is how it was for Iwasaki in Gatchaman Crowds Insight. It's also not uncommon for some cues to pop up on soundtracks that are never used in the show.

The Zipper
06-28-2017, 04:34 AM
Oh, Giacchino. Say what you will about Elfman's Spiderman, but man the gap between his theme and this is just...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I42Y1bl5uXs

tangotreats
06-28-2017, 08:50 AM
I don't bloody know, you wrote it! ;)

I'll rephrase - Black Butler costing over �100,000 makes almost as much sense as Black Butler costing �1,000 - none at all. If it cost �100,000 it should be the best anime score ever recorded in the history of media, and if it cost �1,000 it would be about five minutes long, performed by penny whistle and triangle, and recorded in the broom cupboard by the recording studio janitor.

You wrote "which brought recording costs up to triple digit grands" - which is a little unclear, though it implies that you have a) performed a currency conversion and b) are referring to a price of $100,000+ - if that's not what you meant, please clarify. :)


Iwasaki spends extra money to do all sorts of strange things, like flying all the way to the States for Jormungand just so he could work with a few vocalists in New York- that sort of thing adds a lot more than just a couple grand to the budget.

All of which is an absolute extravagance, not to mention a waste of what is already a tight budget.


A lot of cheap synth and electronica cues we hear aren't necessarily even because of budget, but because the director demanded a new action/comedy cue in the middle of the series and the episode was to be aired a week later, so the composer would have to throw something together really quickly in his/her studio without any time to even hire an ensemble.

That explains isolated cases of shit cues turning up in the middle of otherwise decent, well-thought out scores. I was referring to scores which, throughout their runtime, make instrumental and performance sacrifices - usually by using a quarter or half an ensemble and filling out the rest with instantly-recognisable synth substitutes. Anime production timelines being what they are, with finished episodes being delivered sometimes just hours before broadcast, this is inevitable - but should be the exception, not the rule. When a 12 episode series is obviously going after the sound of an orchestral sound, but is played by 18 strings, a flute, and a shitty sample library, you have to wonder how such gross financial mismanagement is possible given that it's possible to record twenty to thirty minutes of good-quality orchestral music for just $2000 and nobody has to travel anywhere.

The Zipper
06-28-2017, 09:56 AM
The exact quote from that article was that "it brought costs up into triple digits", which is rather vague in and of itself, but given the alternative between $1000 and $100,000, I'm going to lean towards the larger number since the people being interviewed in that article were surprised costs went up to "triple digits", and $1000 is pocket change as far as anime scoring is concerned.

Just to bring up some numbers, a typical episode of an anime spends $15,000 on average for sound, which includes music. Obviously, given how often anime reuses the same SFX, that money would go more towards the music and musicians rather than the sound designer. Black Butler II was a 12 episode anime, so assuming each episode "spent" around $10,000 on music, it's easy to see how that would go over $100,000 total. Sure, it could get you a great symphonic score if you recorded it remotely, but like you said yourself nobody ever does that in Japan. That's how people like Yokoyama keep getting all these high-paid vacations all over the world to work with tiny ensembles with no real quality-boosting contributions. In some cases, not only does the composer fly to some other country to record with their orchestra, the director comes along for the ride too! Like how Yoh Yoshinari did for the LWA OVAs scored by Oshima. This counterproductive mindset defines all processes of anime production.

Another mind-boggling process about how anime is made in Japan is their insistence to keep on using CGI. Contrary to popular belief, it's not used as a shortcut and is actually much more expensive than hand-drawn. Yet the Japanese are obsessed with furthering this technology, and you definitely notice how there's been a trend towards having more and more full CGI anime and films in Japan than ever before. The director for Gundam the Origin even insisted on it when he was given the option between choosing CGI or hand-drawn Mobile Suits.

This article goes into a bit more detail about how costs are split up:

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2011/10/30-1/how-much-does-one-episode-of-anime-cost-to-make

While it is true that there are a lot of anime that have literal pennies as far as music budget is concerned, there are also many others who would gladly fly their composers all over the globe like I mentioned before. An episode of any anime can range from $50,000 to $250,000, and that cost is not always going to be used evenly. Just look at Gundam SEED Destiny, which spent $250,000 per episode and had both poor animation and more reused footage than any other show I've seen.

tangotreats
06-28-2017, 03:19 PM
I thought Seed Destiny was a disaster for a variety of reasons, predominantly because the writer was dicking around and not submitting scripts on time, forcing the producers of the anime to wing it with filler and repeated scenes and re-used animation? (Sahashi's score turned out to be one of his best.)

It just makes me constantly mad that there are projects with ZERO budget and at the other end of the spectrum there are projects in which only 10% of the "music" budget actually goes on music and the rest is flying God-knows how many people pointlessly around the world on sight-seeing tours. I tend to believe that if you're a composer on a project with a restricted budget (and what anime doesn't have a restricted budget?) you take your fee and pour every last penny into making the finished music the best it can be.

You can argue that you absolutely HAVE to use some some bloody Icelandic orchestra because it has "just the right sound" (I'm looking at you, Yoko Kanno) or work with a particular vocalist who just happens to live in a dream holiday spot (I'm looking at you, Taku Iwasaki) - or you can spend the money wisely and simply concentrate on writing a good score and getting it performed as well as you can.

If I ever get to score a film with a budget, don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE the London Symphony Orchestra but I'll take the $99 orchestra over nothing any day of the week... And if I have a choice between three minutes of score with the LSO and an hour of score with the $99 orchestra, I'll also take the $99 orchestra - and not look back. :)

The Zipper
06-28-2017, 04:35 PM
To be fair to Iwasaki, he goes to New York quite often for mostly professional reasons, like mastering Witch Hunter Robin and Katanagatari. He even attended that Lotus Juice fan concert there as a performer out of his own pocket. I don't really know if I would consider it a vacation spot for him since he seems to treat it like a second home. Never really seen him go anywhere else for the sake of recording and mixing music other than Warsaw just once.

SEED and Destiny both had reused animation because the director actually demanded it- he loves stock footage even when given enormous budgets (like in those Cyber Formula OVAs). But yes, you are right that many of its problems actually boiled down to logistic failure and lazy people. A typical half-hour episode of anime nowadays can have up to THIRTEEN animation directors because of just how poorly managed everything is and how close deadlines are. The funny thing is that this works as a blessing for most composers- the director is often too busy keeping his animators in line to even bother checking any of the recording sessions and instead just sends the composer a basic script or storyboard, so the composer has free reign. But then the director would eventually have to go back and request new cues later on because his original instructions were too vague- everything in anime production is last-second like that with the exception of studios such as Ghibli and Kyoto Animation.

Of course, you're thinking about how to record high-quality music like most other sensible westerners, but most sensible westerners have also realized that hand-drawn animation is ludicrously expensive unless you turn it into a literal sweatshop with almost no wages for animators like in Japan, the only country left in the world that still churns out hand-drawn animation regularly. Japan's stubborn backward inefficient way of doing things is both a blessing and a curse.

http://en.rocketnews24.com/2013/11/18/8-reasons-why-japanese-workers-are-so-slow-at-making-decisions/

As for anime industry itself:


The Japanese process is very complicated. They push the limits on every single detail and everyone in the process. If any one stage is stuck, the entire process halts. This is a weakness within their process. When the flow is very smooth and everyone delivers on time and on quality, it is a fantastic process. But they lack flexibility. Not at all. Everything must first go through step one before step two.

http://goboiano.com/chinese-director-explains-why-anime-quality-drops-after-2-episodes/

nextday
06-28-2017, 07:15 PM
Speaking of Japanese composers recording overseas - and I've probably brought this up before - it seems like Yokoyama is still becoming the new overseas guy. Last year he went to Germany and New York. Earlier this year he went to Budapest. Now he says that he's going back to Budapest next month because he liked it there. He's also been mixing a lot of his recent scores in LA. Too bad the guy with no real talent for orchestral music gets all the opportunities.

PonyoBellanote
06-28-2017, 07:24 PM
Speaking of Japanese composers recording overseas - and I've probably brought this up before - it seems like Yokoyama is still becoming the new overseas guy. Last year he went to Germany and New York. Earlier this year he went to Budapest. Now he says that he's going back to Budapest next month because he liked it there. He's also been mixing a lot of his recent scores in LA. Too bad the guy with no real talent for orchestral music gets all the opportunities.

I'm not surprised. He's japanese but also american.. if you're japanese and know English and go international, you're bound for that to happen.

Saladinos
06-28-2017, 10:32 PM
I am very curious about something that goes through my mind the last few days.In fact I went through the ''trouble'' listening to some Giacchino's soundtracks including some of his games.His early compositions seem to have this incredible Williams feel.
Now, his latest scores even some from his mid career as a composer seem to be transparent musically with no real structure or even a drive that leads somewhere to give the motion meaning or satisfy the listener as a piece of music.So ? How come Christopher Lennertz can make the same music as Giacchino's first medal of honors or even incredibles movie and even prove it with his Sausage party score that can use the brass section so well like , say Williams and Giacchino's last 10 years works can't even come close to that? I mean doesn't the world realize what's going on here?

PonyoBellanote
06-28-2017, 10:59 PM
I think it's just that Giacchino has lost the "charm".. he's basically overused lately, so he gets in too much projects.. nothing special about them for him anymore. Just something else to compose. But yeah LOADS of people seem to recognize the blandness of his latest scores from 2016 up to now. 2015 was alright.

Vinphonic
06-29-2017, 12:05 AM
@Saladinos: "The world" doesn't care about film music, unfortunately.

Giacchino got lucky to work with an infinitely more skilled composer who did the heavy-lifting for him (Simonec) until people (mostly suits) attributed the skills of Simonec with Giacchino. He pretended to be Williams and thanks to Simonec, Spielberg (and perhaps even Giacchino himself) became convinced and then Spielberg made the calls...

and here we are, 15 years later... a laughable farce for anyone who studied music seriously. THIS is the big pure orchestral guy Hollywood has in store for us for the next decades... no thanks.

If you want to complain about Japanese budget problems, how about spending two million dollars, some of the world's topclass recording facilities and topclass players in town on a composer who has no credentials or visible skill to justify standing on the conductors podium, in the same hall as Goldsmith (and believe me, Giacchino is the least offensive of the bunch).


And I think all his film work (even with an armada of orchestrators and topclass equipment he needs to even sound reasonable), taken on its own, is mediocre at best and laughable 50% of the time (keep in mind I consider Medal of Honor and SWON 80% Simonec and 20% Giacchino). He's not a very good composer, at least not by the standard Goldsmith, Horner, Silvestri, Elfman, Newton Howard, Broughton or Williams established for Hollywood until the 2000s (he had enough chances to proof me wrong). I would rather listen to Giacchino than 90% of Hollywood today but why on earth should I do that when the next Oshima album drops in a few weeks?! In my opinion they should drop Giacchino and push Kevin Kaska on stage, who is otherwise doomed to arrange for subrank amateur composers these days. But perhaps Giacchino is the perfect fit for the Hollywood of our times... a giant nostalgia cashgrab.

streichorchester
06-29-2017, 02:43 AM
A blast from the past:
I watched Blood+ back when it first aired. It was nothing memorable. I do remember liking the music and being surprised it was from a �Media Ventures� composer, who at the time were like my sworn enemy. But I couldn�t deny this was a score with around 10 great themes, which is 10 more than Giacchino will compose for the new Spider-Man. I don�t think I got around to it at the time this was posted (too lazy to check), so here�s some of my thoughts:

I love how the Predator suddenly shows up in "Blood and Blade".

Holst shows up in Destiny of Bloodlines (just like in Gladiator.)

Of course there are the usual resemblances to The Rock, Gladiator, and Pirates of the Caribbean scattered about. Zimmer's influence is undeniable.

I think I mentioned it before, but I'm pretty sure some of these themes show up in Kanno's Macross Frontier (Prologue F) and Horner's Avatar.

The shifting minor harmonies are some of the best I've heard since early Elfman and Goldenthal. It reminds me a bit of Newton Howard's score to The Sixth Sense or Trevor Jones�s Dark City. That piano in the Chevalier theme represents some of the best melodic writing Hollywood has to offer, and it's a shame this score isn�t more well known as it would make an amazing orchestral concert suite.

That rising three note fanfare at the end of Saya vs. Diva owes a bit to Bill Conti's The Karate Kid. You also hear Horner's version of it at the end of his Karate Kid score. Same three notes in all three cases: G A Bb. Kanno�s version Prologue F, however, is a whole-tone down: F G Ab.

A Broken Promise has a very Hisaishi-like or Wada-like feeling to it. Same progression as Princess Mononoke, 3x3 Eyes, and Horner's Braveheart. If you need emotional music you can't go wrong with this progression.

Anyway, 5/5 stars for me.

The Zipper
06-29-2017, 02:44 AM
Nostalgia indeed. It seems more like what Hollywood wants nowadays whenever an old franchise is rebooted (all of them) is for some DJ to come by and remix the original themes with electronic beats and percussion loops, so that they can churn out the same themes again that audiences are familiar with, while being different enough for it to be considered "modern" in the way an RC score is modern. I think this trend is far more terrifying than any amount of Media Ventures original scores, and the two who lead this movement are Tyler Bates and Giacchino. Alien Covenant and Rogue One are the future of film scoring, whether we like it or not. And since everything nowadays has to be in some kind of "cinematic universe", you can bet this rehashing method will spread to far more movies than ever before.

Anime productions are generally horribly planned and most end up being mediocre in all aspects, but in the chaos of people rushing to meet deadlines and turning a blind eye, someone involved is usually able to take advantage of the situation and produce something great, whether it be a soundtrack or a piece of animation. That kind of potential just no longer exists in Hollywood with its very precise and controlling producers and target audiences.

tangotreats
06-29-2017, 09:02 AM
The Giacchino situation is very simple and two fold:

1. He was never that good in the first place and almost all of the heavy lifting in his earlier scores was obviously done by somebody else (most likely Tim Simonec)... and
2. Nobody except John Williams would ever be allowed to score a modern film the way "Giacchino" sounded in the late 1990s anyway...

He's certainly over-exposed but this wouldn't be a problem if he were in any way competent. Giacchino is now "the guy" you go to if you're a Hollywood director, you want a throwback score, and you don't want any trouble. You won't get anything great or even good, but it'll fit nicely in your movie, and reviews will comment on the "old-fashioned orchestral score" and individual commentators, starved and infuriated by film music's recent relentless march to the bottom, will praise it disproportionally on the grounds that it's "better than we expected" or "a step in the right direction" . If you're a modern Hollywood director for whom music is of little to no importance in the greater scheme of things (CGI, A-list actors, marketability, franchiseability, demographic appeal, epicness, etc are all a more pressing concern for the modern director miles ahead of "make a good film" and light years ahead of "commission a musical score that is a genuine contribution to the artform") that really is all you care about - perhaps even more than you care about... You just want to make your movie, and make hundreds of millions of dollars. You'd sell your grandmother to make that happen.

As for Blood+ - I never liked it much either. It was yet another example of illusions of greatness coming from our expectations over who wrote it and what company they worked for when they did.


say Williams and Giacchino's last 10 years works can't even come close to that?

I'm sorry, are you implying that Sausage Party outclasses the likes of Indiana Jones 4, War Horse, The Force Awakens, and The BFG? Or did I misunderstand?

Saladinos
06-29-2017, 09:46 AM
No , of course not , I somehow missed the comma and it should have been before the (,and Giacchino's last...) . I am saying that Christopher Lennertz's scores seem to connect somehow to Giacchino's early scores that give that Williams feel that comes from the "drammatic jazz" from the brass usage. And yes I would love if Lennertz scored rogue one instead of Giacchino or even the extra spin offs that will come out the years ahead.Also it might be me but I feel like Sausage party's score is the closest we can get to Williams from hollywood composers nowadays and I also feel that Giacchino can't do that and if he could he would with his Rogue one score , right?

Edit:
Is Lennertz composing himself ?

Vinphonic
06-29-2017, 03:57 PM
So this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz3du_b6Okc

On second thought, keep Hollywood composers as far away from Japan as possible.

PonyoBellanote
06-29-2017, 04:03 PM
It's not that bad. The problem is, that is synth, so it sounds cheap and basic, and standard, but maybe if it had been orchestrated live..

Then again, the comparisons with the game music aren't fair though. This is something different.

nextday
06-29-2017, 04:30 PM
Castlevania deserves so much better. Considering it's popularity, I'm still surprised it hasn't received an orchestra album or a concert (aside from that Swedish concert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpolz4V2Ez4) in 2010).

It's definitely high up on my list of most wanted orchestral albums.

The Zipper
06-29-2017, 04:39 PM
So this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz3du_b6Okc

On second thought, keep Hollywood composers as far away from Japan as possible.Well, there is an enormous difference between sending a western composer to Japan and adapting a Japanese property for a western target audience.

tangotreats
06-29-2017, 04:55 PM
Phew! ;)

I understand now - Lennertz' recent scores "fit" with his previous ones, Giacchino's don't.

I don't like pretty much all of Lennertz' music so far, but he's a real composer with a pedigree and an education (from a pretty good music school) to back it up. Giacchino is a guy who loves the "right" kind of film music, but lacks the raw ability, education, and internal understanding of what makes music sound and function the way it does, to create in that style.

Lennertz can but doesn't or isn't asked to. Giacchino wants to and is asked to but can't. It has all the hallmarks of a classic farce.

Mithrandir_1977
06-29-2017, 05:13 PM
May the farce be with you.

Sorry... I had to.

Vinphonic
06-29-2017, 05:24 PM
Meanwhile, in Japan: (btw it's for an anime airing this season)




EDIT: How about some unfiltered opinion and education from an orchestrator working in LA: "Modern film music is not effective orchestral music" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2ci_HYvtA&t=17m52s) / "The problem with modern orchestral Hollywood scores" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2ci_HYvtA&t=23m29s)

Saladinos
06-29-2017, 08:53 PM
I see , thank you for your insights :) Much love !!!

PonyoBellanote
06-30-2017, 12:10 AM
Anyone excited for the ff12Zodiac Age soundtrack? Cuz I'm excited, a couple of the full orchestra redoings sound really neat to my ears, though I know a few will hate it for its classic film music vibe in some of the tracks. (Some, mainly the ones who go with cutscenes or something important.) I heard a Williams vibe..

nextday
06-30-2017, 12:28 AM
Anyone excited for the ff12Zodiac Age soundtrack? Cuz I'm excited, a couple of the full orchestra redoings sound really neat to my ears, though I know a few will hate it for its classic film music vibe in some of the tracks. (Some, mainly the ones who go with cutscenes or something important.) I heard a Williams vibe..
I was disappointed by the amount of synth present in the samples. I was hoping for a complete re-recording but I guess they went low-budget.