[QUOTE=Lens of Truth;1481109][CENTER]SYMPHONY YS

Thanks Lens of Truth for Symphony YS

Michiru Oshima - Godzilla Tokyo SOS
AKA Godzilla X Mothra X Mechagodzilla: Tokyo S.O.S.
50th ANNIVERSARY GODZILLA SOUNDTRACK PERFECT COLLECTION (BOX 6) Disc 4
MP3 VBR V0
|Orchestral|Epic|Militaristic|

Download (http://rapidshare.com/files/390202676/Godzilla_Tokyo_SOS.rar)
PSW: smile

Michiru Oshima - Godzilla v. Megaguirus
50th ANNIVERSARY GODZILLA SOUNDTRACK PERFECT COLLECTION (BOX 6) Disc 1
MP3 VBR V0
|Orchestral|Epic|Militaristic|

Download (http://rapidshare.com/files/390214522/Godzilla_vs_Megagirus.rar)
PSW: smile

Michiru Oshima - Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla
50th ANNIVERSARY GODZILLA SOUNDTRACK PERFECT COLLECTION (BOX 6) Disc 3
MP3 VBR V0
|Orchestral|Epic|Action|

Download (http://rapidshare.com/files/390207313/Godzilla_vs_Mechagodzilla.rar)
PSW: smile

With the influx of godzilla soundtracks lately from other posters and by composers who we all know can write epic orchestral music, I thought I'd contribute with some by the great Michiru Oshima. I suggest you download one of these and see if you like it and then maybe try all 3. Each of these is quite long and can get a little repetitive but there are some great pieces here. Anyone interested in lossless can find these posted http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?p=1481142#post1481142

Thanks Sirusjr, there can never be enough Oshima, she's simply a genius ;)

Btw, if anyone hasn't heard or tried the SMG 2 Music yet, here is a sample:

Super Mario Galaxy 2 Main Theme MP3 320kb/s 44khz (4.5MB) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/yqwm5tijj2y/Super Mario Galaxy 2.mp3)

I cannot recommend it enough, so far it's my personal highlight of 2010

Hi folks,
Thanks for all recent posts and to those who have PMed me and await a reply, I apologise for the delay and will get back to you shortly. :)

Just a quick drop-in this evening to comment on SMG2 - I thought I'd better say what I want to say here, and not in the SMG2 thread where it appears the only valid reply is "OMG THAT IS SO C00L!"... So, here's the Tangotreats Alternative Review...

Short version: It's crap.

Longer version: Let's start with the good bits; the orchestra is a bit bigger, and better recorded. The orchestral music is just trying too hard to be like SMG1. What was so fresh and exciting the first time around now feels self-aware, laboured, and stale. The end credits illustrate my point; it's as if somebody said to the composer "We want another end credits theme. Make it EXACTLY THE DAMN SAME as the last one because people loved that. Don't deviate from the plan."

And so, he did; structurally, rhythmically, orchestrationally, even harmonically, it's the exact same piece... the familiar SMG melody has been swapped out and replaced with one which manages a very unique feat; it's essentially the same theme, but it's entirely forgettable. We move through the motions; cascading strings and horns introduce theme. Brass chords. Melody on oboe; busy string accompaniment with pizzicato celli and basses. Counter theme on flutes. Brass flourish, then strings repeat melodies. Brass flourish - theme passes to trumpets and horns with militaristic percussion accompaniment. Romantic recap section - melody on oboe and subsequently other woodwinds. Brass flourish - then SMG1 melody on strings and then brass. Traditional brass flourish and close.

Great shame; it was so hyped... and it turned out to be a limp rehash of SMG1. Oh, well.

I have a hard time with SMG2 as well. Because on one side it is finely crafted music and the end credits is a great song....but as you said its exactly the same. So if I had never heard SMG1 this would be such a wonderful listen. It loses alot of its magic though, if you have heard SMG1.

Short version: It's crap.
:D I do agree for the most part. Nowhere near the freshness of the original, and the melodic 'inspiration' leaves a lot to be desired. They're still fun catchy tunes, but more of the same. As you say, it doesn't feel like a worthy continuation (or development) of the style. The formulaic approach seems to have knocked the socks off most fans though - not just here but all over the net. The standard reaction appears to be that it's better! Why?

One point (that probably won't be of concern): in essence, Galaxy2 is to the first game what Lost Levels was to SMB. So at least they had the courtesy to 'disguise' the sameness this time!

Battle Belt is funky as hell. ADMIT IT! ;)

THE FILM AND TELEVISION MUSIC OF
ANGELA MORLEY

John Wilson and his Orchestra



MP3-V0 + Scans
http://uploadmirrors.com/download/7C9YU5DU/Angela

This rather suave, lush collection of suites and themes represents a brief glimpse into the varied career of a very special composer - one of the first that captured my imagination as a child. Angela Morley was one of those true artists, whose supreme skill and craft is almost unnoticed, it's so effortless. From the surging waltz of the opening track, building and building, to the palpable loneliness of the mysterious Madame X, to the sultry simmer of 'Blues for Alexis', to the lighthearted rollicking adventure of Captain Nemo, this is a disc that gets better every time you listen. 'When Eight Bells Toll' could be a not-too-distant cousin of Barry's Bond - love that final chord! Another standout is the deliciously tongue-in-cheek 'A Canadian in Mayfair', Morley's first composition believe it or not(!); as with much of her later work the understatement and lightness of touch almost conceal the rich, sparkling use of the orchestra.

Affinities with jazz and light music, as well as film and classical, mean this is right up John Wilson's street, and he and his orchestra perform it beautifully. Wilson is nothing less than a champion of rarely heard film music. He's certainly doing his bit to break down snobbish barriers about what "can and can't" be played in the concert hall, so all power to him!

Watership Down is gem, of course, and it's nice to have a fleshed out version of 'Venturing Forth' and, in 'Kehaar's Theme', an airy, sailing sax solo from the eminent John Harle. The full score was posted earlier in the thread (http://forums.ffshrine.org/showpost.php?p=1248367&postcount=2178), and believe me, if you haven't got it already, you're missing out on one of the greats. For a start, the majestic 'journey' theme only appears in subdued form in this suite. You'll need the lot ;).

A little article that may be of interest (http://www.jazzprofessional.com/profiles/morley.htm) and Morley's official site (http://www.angelamorley.com).

Enjoy! :)

Ok, now that I had the chance to listen to the full score maybe I was too euphorical considering the tremendous sucess of the first game's music. My expectations were based on the little pieces I had the chance to hear. I hoped for a lot more diversity and development of themes in the full score but sadly it's not what I got. Still it holds a special place for me even when it's basically just more of the same.
However, it is still a thousand times better than most of other game scores out there and I have to thank Nintendo to finally put orchestral music into their games and even make them an advertising point.
The magic of the music (at least in my opinion) works best in the game itself (just like the first).
For some it is a major disappointment but for me it's more of the same stuff I absolutly loved 3 years ago and I'm fine with that.

I mostly agree with this.

I listened to some tracks, and it's a rather fun score to listen to, even though it's not a masterpiece. But do we have to expect a masterpiece for this kind of score ? I doubt it. To me it's just a joyful, enthusiastic and enjoyable score for a VG, nothing less, nothing more. It could have been a lot better indeed, but it's perfectly effective at what it's meant to be, and anyway, one can only applaud when a VG company chooses to go for a full blown orchestral score.

I insist on orchestral, because unlike some recent "orchestral" scores from Hollywood, which sound like they were composed by guys more used to make techno music with Impulse Tracker than genuine symphonic music (Robin Hood, Prince of Persia), SMG2 features an authentic orchestral score made by people who know how to write for a symphonic orchestra. (and they actually use woodwinds ! Can you believe this ?)

We have to encourage this tendency. So thank you so much, Nintendo, for allowing such scores to to made ! (and next time, please make it even better)


And thanks a lot for the last uploads, mates !

@arthierr

I agree.
Well, we can still hope for a ravishing score for the next Zelda ;)

I agree with the rest of the posters about Mario Galaxy 2 although I wasn't that big a fan of the first one anyway.

Also huge thanks Lens for more Angela Morley.

SYMPHONIC FANTASIES
Featuring music of Kingdom Hearts, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy





http://forums.ffshrine.org/showpost.php?p=1339342&postcount=58
Thanks to Tonedeaf



Symphonic Fantasies is a concert tribute to video game music from Square Enix. In 2009, two concerts were performed in Germany.

The first one was presented in Oberhausen on September 11.

The second one in Cologne on September 12. Both featured the WDR Radio Orchestra, WDR Radio Choir, Benyamin Nuss and Rony Barrak, conducted by Arnie Roth.


Ok, this album isn't recent, but 1) I listened to it just yesterday! 2) some people may have missed it, 3) its presence in the orchestral thread is obligatory a unavoidable, and 4) man, why hasn't anybody posted it here before !? This thing is fantastic!

Oh, I absolutely love this album. The arrangements are so fluid, so tasteful, and genuinely orchestral and very complex in nature. The performance is remarkably mastered, reaching a very high professional quality. The orchestra is quite big and well furnished, and so is the choir. One important aspect is that unlike other symphonic concerts (A Night in Fantasia, for instance), the music respects the original spirit of the games' music, the arrangers really understood the meaning of the original music and faithfully brought it to a big symphonic level.

This is not my link, it's from a fellow named Tonedeaf, who I quote: "I have just spent some time cutting apart the mp3 SuperBen and "SMaxtor from CetraConnection.de" provided. I now present the Symphonic Fantasies Concert (sans German speakers and most of the applause,) with each piece as a separate track. I used mp3DirectCut, which splices an mp3 without re-encoding it, allowing me to provide this without any loss of quality whatsoever." Which means the quality is excellent, and far better than Youtube rips.

Highly recommended !


Tracklist

1. Fanfare overture by Jonne Valtonen

2. Fantasy I: Kingdom Hearts by Yoko Shimomura
* Dearly Beloved
* The Other Promise
* A Fight to the Death
* Hand in Hand
+ more

3. Fantasy II: Secret of Mana by Hiroki Kikuta
* Fear of the Heavens
* Into the Thick of it
* The Oracle
* Prophecy
+ more

4. Fantasy III: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross by Yasunori Mitsuda
* Chrono Trigger
* Scars of Time
* Battle with Magus
* Prisoners of Fate
+ more

5. Fantasy IV: Final Fantasy by Nobuo Uematsu
* Prelude
* Bombing Mission
* Battle at the Big Bridge
* Phantom Forest
+ more

6. Encore by Yoko Shimomura, Hiroki Kikuta, Yasunori Mitsuda, Nobuo Uematsu
* Destati
* One Winged Angel
+ more

Total time:
83'11''

I listened to some tracks, and it's a rather fun score to listen to, even though it's not a masterpiece. But do we have to expect a masterpiece for this kind of score ? I doubt it. To me it's just a joyful, enthusiastic and enjoyable score for a VG, nothing less, nothing more. It could have been a lot better indeed, but it's perfectly effective at what it's meant to be, and anyway, one can only applaud when a VG company chooses to go for a full blown orchestral score.
One aspect of the first Galaxy score that made it so special was its unique combination of latin-meets-scifi. It fulfilled both its role as 'Mario music' and evoked the setting perfectly. Gusty Garden has a wonderful bed of rhythmic guitars punctuated by brass and that dreamy liquid melody over the top; and the mysterious central episode with harp and trumpet (very Spanish-sounding). Battlerock almost had a flamenco-march feel to it.

Then there was the playful fantasy element, which Kondo set the tone for with pieces like Good Egg Galaxy, with it's delicate little flute solos, and the fairytale waltzes for Rosalina's Observatory. Plus a few very-Nintendo arpeggiated 'lullabies' such as Childhood, To the Gateway and Space Junk Galaxy.

There's nothing to compare to the spark of those in Galaxy2. The new tracks feel like they've lost the distinctive stylistic elements that animated the first - even though they try to stick to the 'formula'. One of the problems I think is that it's as if they've mixed up all the best tracks from the original into a hodge-podge. Some of the best pieces are the ones that do try something new, such as the aforementioned Battle Belt and Yoshi's Star. Starship Mario is also very charming and beautifully orchestrated.

Klnerfan - it's very tantalising to think of what they'll do for Zelda isn't it! If it's not orchestral (in part) I'll be heartbroken :puppydog: I think Koji Kondo should take the helm again and they should draft in Michiru Oshima for orchestration duties.

Arthierr - speaking of VGM masterpieces, I have one coming up soon :)

Another thing - is Symphonic Fantasies going to see a proper release?? And thanks to Sirus for Godzilla! Downloading now.

FSM announced today Star Trek 3 :)

FSM announced today Star Trek 3 :)

Old news, actually. I hear they're also going to do a two-disc "Poltergeist" this year. Can't wait.

Lens...

Thank You for "SYMPHONY YS", truly fantastic!!!

Woohoo, saw this today and ordered it IMMEDIATELY!


http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm?cdID=454

been waiting for them to do a complete release of the Star Trek III: The Search for Spock score since they did the one for Wrath of Khan last year :D Cant wait for this to show up!!


EDIT: Sanico, didnt see your mention of this till after I posted :P

@Lens of Truth

About the next Zelda: I remember two great orchestrated pieces for Twilight Princess. Who was resbonsible for them ?
I believe Koji Kodo did only the midi music (Maybe the best midi score there is but I was still really dissapointed that they didn't orchestrate it)

Very exciting news! Love the Bob Peak artwork too (his best for the series?).



About the next Zelda: I remember two great orchestrated pieces for Twilight Princess. Who was resbonsible for them ?
I believe Koji Kodo did only the midi music (Maybe the best midi score there is but I was still really dissapointed that they didn't orchestrate it)
Oshima orchestrated at least one of the pieces you mention and I think Yokota did the other. Koji Kondo only took a supervisory role on TP. Toru Minegishi did most of it, including the Hyrule Field theme. Would have sounded a million times better with an orchestra throughout, or at least for the set pieces. The midi voices are really showing their age.

I'm not sure, but I think Koji Kondo uses MIDIs because he likes the music to be interactive.

Yep, that's the official explanation, but I'm sure there's a way around it. In all honesty I found the ADD of constantly changing music on the field in TP rather annoying in the long run. I wanted to hear the heroic main theme! Every time you get vaguely close to an enemy (which is every 2 seconds) the music switches into 'danger mode' - this wouldn't matter, but for the fact that a lot of these subsections are entirely forgettable, and by necessity tend to 'tread water' until the main melody comes in again. I would gladly trade the interactivity for fully orchestral music that wasn't hamstrung by constantly having to adapt.

A great example of the above technique is in Mario 64 when the Dire Dire Docks track adds a layer of 'string' harmonies when you enter the water, and later percussion when you enter the caves. This is far more subtle though. On the one hand you can spell everything out, or you can go with the sweep of the area/level. The latter approach is better for Zelda's overworld IMO.

From Zelda-wiki:

Michiru Oshima, born March 16, 1961 in Nagasaki, Nagasaki) is a Japanese composer who has worked on several video game, movie, and television titles. Her works include composition for the video games Genghis Khan II: Clan of the Gray Wolf for the SNES, and Ico for the PlayStation 2. Her works with the Zelda series include an orchestral arrangement of a Zelda medley for the The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, along with three other arrangements of pieces or the E3 trailer for The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Oshima created three pieces of orchestral arrangements written by different composers, although only one piece, by fellow arranger Mahito Yokota, was used.

This crap about interactive music is the auditory equivalent of 3D. I do not need to beaten over the head by music that exactly mirrors my activities down to the very last microsecond. It's a technique invented by programmers, not musicians - and it's very clever indeed, from a technical standpoint at least. From any other standpoint, it's an absolute waste of time - not to mention the havoc it wreaks on the structure of the music.

A proper piece of thoughtfully written, competently performed music evokes a particular mood or feeling infinitely better than a computer piecing together fragments of melodies.

Kondo of all people should appreciate that; his best works - the ones from thirty years ago that people are still humming today - were effective because they were melodic, tuneful, original, and evocative. (As something of a side-note, I wouldn't apply a single one of those descriptions to SMG2!)

All IMHO of course.

[Edit: Oshima's work on Twilight Princess amazes me. They really went to the trouble of hiring an orchestra and a skilled orchestrator, all for the sake of five minutes of music. All finished in half a session and then everybody leaves. I wonder if they recorded some other, unconnected, music at the same session... Oh well, we will never know.]

I fiercely disagree about interactive music being equivalent to 3D. Video games aren't pre-packaged experiences; therefore it isn't much of a jump to say that the music should adapt to what's happening in the game, or that sound programmers should contribute as much to the music as, say, object programmers contribute to the action scenes.

As a game player, I think interactive music is more fun and engaging than something that will always play out the same no matter what's happening on the screen. I'm thinking of the drums that are added to Super Mario World's music whenever you mount a Yoshi, or the "strikes" that are added to the battle theme when Link lands a combination of blows in The Wind Waker. I also like the idea of someone like Koji Kondo trying to really advance the role and nature of music in a game, rather than just writing a static composition and sticking it in.

Lastly, I might say that Kondo's best compositions aren't from thirty years ago. They're in games like "Super Mario 64" and "Ocarina of Time" and "Wind Waker", games in which the music doesn't sit still and do its own thing. They are sophisticated not just in their composition, but in their programming.

But what am I saying? Kondo's experiments in interactive music also date back to thirty years ago, when the level themes would speed up as Super Mario ran out of time. A cold work of programming, and yet it affected just about everyone who played the game.

Lastly, I might say that Kondo's best compositions aren't from thirty years ago. They're in games like "Super Mario 64" and "Ocarina of Time" and "Wind Waker", games in which the music doesn't sit still and do its own thing. They are sophisticated not just in their composition, but in their programming.

I don't disagree, but average Joe knows the Super Mario Brothers theme and the Legend of Zelda theme, and can probably hum both of them. They didn't depend on clever techniques or interactivity (with the exception of the increased tempo as time expired, but as you say this is hardly rocket science) - they were just really good tunes. :)

I don't disagree, but average Joe knows the Super Mario Brothers theme and the Legend of Zelda theme, and can probably hum both of them. They didn't depend on clever techniques or interactivity (with the exception of the increased tempo as time expired, but as you say this is hardly rocket science) - they were just really good tunes. :)

And there are also really good tunes in his games that try to advance interactive sound programming, many of which are richer and more developed than a lot of the old 8-bit music. (As catchy as the old Zelda theme is, it can drive someone insane over an extended period of time with its short melody.)

I'd also like to point out that interactive music doesn't mean the computer is composing the music. It's about making the sound more responsive, allowing the game greater versatility in picking what the player is listening to. Some of it involves "Mickey Mousing" (Wind Waker) but a lot of it also entails augmenting the current level composition (Yoshi in Mario World) or swapping in an entirely new track. (Parts of Banjo-Kazooie, for example.)

Someone is still writing the music, even in the instances that involve programmed MM'ing.

Another thing - is Symphonic Fantasies going to see a proper release??

http://www.squareenixmusic.com/musicnews2.php?subaction=showfull&id=1270615448&archive=&start_from=&ucat=8&

For we Amerikaner:
http://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Fantasies-Wdr-Rundfunkorchester-Koln/dp/B003DQ0ARG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274744500&sr=8-1

...

First of all that may be the longest post ever in this thread. Second, I like the thought of interactivity of music used in games but it is used totally in the wrong way at the moment as Lens pointed out. I DO NOT WANT to have the annoying music tell me I am fighting every time. There is a difference between solid battle music and annoying music that is used to say "oh hey you are in danger!" I don't need danger squid to jump out and tell me I am about to encounter an enemy I can see on my screen. Most of the time when I play a game with annoying music I end up using classical music to give me a better experience overall, especially when the sound effects are way too loud and detract from the experience.

First of all that may be the longest post ever in this thread.

Good. :)

Second, I like the thought of interactivity of music used in games but it is used totally in the wrong way at the moment as Lens pointed out. I DO NOT WANT to have the annoying music tell me I am fighting every time. There is a difference between solid battle music and annoying music that is used to say "oh hey you are in danger!" I don't need danger squid to jump out and tell me I am about to encounter an enemy I can see on my screen. Most of the time when I play a game with annoying music I end up using classical music to give me a better experience overall, especially when the sound effects are way too loud and detract from the experience.

I find "danger" music to be very helpful. Sometimes you can see an enemy coming, but sometimes you can't. For example, there were plenty of times in "Oblivion" where my ass was saved because the music clued me in on an enemy. Such music can also be used to determine if an area is free of danger, which is very handy in Zelda dungeons.

Personally, I think it's an interesting way to use music. It's kind of like the music becomes an extension of the character, like their instinct or something.

I find "danger" music to be very helpful. Sometimes you can see an enemy coming, but sometimes you can't. For example, there were plenty of times in "Oblivion" where my ass was saved because the music clued me in on an enemy. Such music can also be used to determine if an area is free of danger, which is very handy in Zelda dungeons.

Personally, I think it's an interesting way to use music. It's kind of like the music becomes an extension of the character, like their instinct or something.

I don't see anything to be against when it comes to dynamic soundtracks that shift depending on the situation, ala Banjo-Kazooie. I actually wish more OST's would take this approach. What helps, though, is if the shift isn't obtrusive, which I actually hated about Oblivion(in addition to everything else in that turd.) You'd just be moseying along to some mellow harp music and then BAM, frantic drums pound in and you don't know what the fuck. When it's over? Harp again. It wasn't seamless, just jarring and unwieldly, like a turn-based rpg without that whoosing screen transfer. BK, Zelda and Mario 64 got it right, some instruments just slipping out and others entering as the scenario changed without throwing off the loop.

And of course, it helps if the tune is still enjoyabe to listen to no matter the shift, again ala BK, Zelda and Mario. Composers do it best when they just look at it like arrangement instead of just a programming trick, I've found.

Kingdom Hearts, a game I otherwise don't care for, does the "thematic shift" thing the best; each "battle" theme fits with the musical soundscape of the level. I don't care much for Oblivion music actually, but I thought it was a good example of how music can help the player.

Videogames attempt to mimic leitmotif writing, but because it is a subtle and beautiful art which can't be handled properly through brute-force transitions, the net effect is sort of tragic and laughable. As an added bonus, they serve to condition an entire generation+ to accept that turning a radio dial abruptly passes for development, which, ironically, is perfect for all these ADD kids who can't focus for more than 30 seconds at a stretch anyway. The entire world has been reduced to Tweets, soundbytes, and 4-beat ostinato phrases in repetition. Ah, Mandelbrot, was there no limit to your genius?


_Mike

Videogames attempt to mimic leitmotif writing, but because it is a subtle and beautiful art which can't be handled properly through brute-force transitions, the net effect is sort of tragic and laughable. As an added bonus, they serve to condition an entire generation+ to accept that turning a radio dial abruptly passes for development, which, ironically, is perfect for all these ADD kids who can't focus for more than 30 seconds at a stretch anyway. The entire world has been reduced to Tweets, soundbytes, and 4-beat ostinato phrases in repetition. Ah, Mandelbrot, was there no limit to your genius?


What is your point, aside from sneering at youngsters and their newfangled technology?

I think the efforts to create dynamic game music are interesting. Will they ever create something to match real arrangement/conducting? Probably not, but I don't see the merit in pissing on such an ambition. Unlike 3D, which is a gimmick that exists soley to raise ticket prices, dynamic music programming can enhance its medium. It would be cool if one day kids could play a Mario game where the music is responsive to what they do or what happens on screen. (Or in the holodeck or whatever.)

Videogames attempt to mimic leitmotif writing, but because it is a subtle and beautiful art which can't be handled properly through brute-force transitions, the net effect is sort of tragic and laughable. As an added bonus, they serve to condition an entire generation+ to accept that turning a radio dial abruptly passes for development, which, ironically, is perfect for all these ADD kids who can't focus for more than 30 seconds at a stretch anyway. The entire world has been reduced to Tweets, soundbytes, and 4-beat ostinato phrases in repetition. Ah, Mandelbrot, was there no limit to your genius?


_Mike

Haha Mike. I think there's validity to what you're saying, but man oh man. Calling out the "entire world" and "all these ADD kids" puts this in "Get off my lawn" territory.

As someone who grew up as one of those ADD-whatsit kids, let me just say that game music was probably my biggest enabler for getting into classical/instrumental/score music. That, and a really good Music Appreciation class that I took in my freshman year of college.

Oshima's work on Twilight Princess amazes me. They really went to the trouble of hiring an orchestra and a skilled orchestrator, all for the sake of five minutes of music. All finished in half a session and then everybody leaves. I wonder if they recorded some other, unconnected, music at the same session... Oh well, we will never know.
There are all kinds of things about Twilight Princess' production viz the final product that don't fit. Most of the settings etc in the early trailer that got everyone so hyped fell by the wayside and there were multiple extended delays. Anyone who has played through the game will know the personality crisis going on with story elements. And what about the occasional vestigial traces of cel-shading?

They were considering going orchestral at one stage. Kondo commented during production that he was toying with the idea of full orchestra for the expansive parts and string quartet for more intimate moments (great idea). Maybe they didn't want to spend the money, or maybe it would have sent the game's release back even further? In the end Nintendo played it safe, as they so often have post-N64.

Now that I think about it, the interactivity claim doesn't hold up at all. You know the two Bowser battle pieces from Mario Galaxy (one is a nod to Duel of the Fates)? Well they both layer on choir, brass counterpoint and more, 'interactively', depending on when you hit Bowser as he hurtles around. You don't get a sense of it from listening to the cd, but it was a nice touch in-game. So it's not an either/or. They CAN do it with recorded music when they want to!


As a game player, I think interactive music is more fun and engaging than something that will always play out the same no matter what's happening on the screen. I'm thinking of the drums that are added to Super Mario World's music whenever you mount a Yoshi, or the "strikes" that are added to the battle theme when Link lands a combination of blows in The Wind Waker. I also like the idea of someone like Koji Kondo trying to really advance the role and nature of music in a game, rather than just writing a static composition and sticking it in.

Lastly, I might say that Kondo's best compositions aren't from thirty years ago. They're in games like "Super Mario 64" and "Ocarina of Time" and "Wind Waker", games in which the music doesn't sit still and do its own thing. They are sophisticated not just in their composition, but in their programming
I agree with all your examples of the technique being used well. It seems like the simplest thing now, but I used to love Banjo Kazooie in Gobi's Valley when you approached Jinxy the Sphinx and you got a new variation on the tune.

I'm also with you on OOT and Mario 64 (and Star Fox 64) being Kondo's peak. Ocarina in particular is an inspired through-composed soundtrack. The ocarina songs themselves are restricted to just a few notes (mapped to the control pad), but they're so individual and memorable; when you play them at first it's quite sparse, and you think "how is this going to work?"; then the harmonies come in and it all makes sense. Magical!

Ocarina was also the last time Kondo composed an entire soundtrack. From then on it gets very fuzzy. He's only credited on Twilight Princess because old themes recur and a general 'advisory' role. Aside from the reworkings of past Mario tunes, he contributed only three new themes to Galaxy1 (Good Egg, Rosalina's Observatory and Childhood). I was surprised at first becasue I was convinced Gusty Garden had his stamp on it! There's a team of at least 5 or 6 composers at Nintendo these days, are all trained in the 'house style'. Yokota is the latest and he's clearly a talented guy. Unfortunately, he's already taken to self-pastiche.

What do you think of this piece composed by a fan? I think with some tweaking and refinement, and real instruments, you've got the basis of a fantastic track. Better than much of what's on offer in the final game ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-qeZ0MPf8c

NaotaM - Thanks for the epic review! Nice to read another thoughtful perspective. My expectations weren't as high as Tango's. Sky Station has been paraded in trailers for nearly a year now, so it was clear what we were getting. I just think Yokota has followed the rhythm and structure of the original tracks way too closely. Listen to Fluffy Bluff - it barely has any identity of its own, and the orchestration could reflect the cloud/fluffy theme so much better (seriously, why snare drums??).


It would be cool if one day kids could play a Mario game where the music is responsive to what they do or what happens on screen. (Or in the holodeck or whatever.)
The logical end point of all this might well be "The Ultimate In User-Generated Experience" and I'm not sure I like it ;) We've already destroyed the value of creative genius enough.

Guys, Mike was going for a sweeping statement there, sure, but can you really deny that entertainment is more and more geared to low attention-spans? I'd say a lot of modern movies are more guilty of this than games, which often require long-term investment and have more stable visual structures. On a purely formal level, just look at composition style, editing, average shot length in films today versus everything up to the 70s. The difference is incredible!

Relax, boys. :) First of all, I'll leave it to you to find your way to my point without getting snared in semantics. But we have to separate some facts from opinion in these otherwise charged discussions.

While I'm pleased as punch that a young generation has found orchestral music through videogames, it is absolutely a matter of fact - not opinion - that said music is embarrassingly amateur at best when held against the enduring repertoire pieces they draw their inspirations from. That's a musicological truth - which doesn't necessarily have any impact on the enjoyment one gets from it, but that's just proof that quality is relative; what else is new? You cannot put any videogame score in the same quality bracket as anything by Barber or Shostakovich, despite the clear influences they have in the work. If you do not accept this fact outright, then I would recommend you find your way to the greats, if for no other reason than to reset and calibrate your threshold for what is possible.

This isn't as direct a slam on my fellow composers as it seems, either; we're not trained the way they were. Our default level of expected craft is a mere fraction of what it used to be - had to be! - just to work and survive.

On top of poorly trained composers, most of whom can't even orchestrate, I have yet to hear a performance on a videogame soundtrack that wasn't cringe-worthy. I had to have some of my own work performed in Prague at one time, in what I must say was the most embarrassing musical experience I've ever had. I would rather have my anus spread with a poultry reaper, than have to suffer through those barely-highschool musicians' performances as they stumble over and butcher music beyond their abilities, and totally beyond their idiomatic understanding. Perhaps if I'd just written ostinatos, everything would've been okay, but with the perspective of having my work normally performed by the A-Call players here in Los Angeles, I could barely call what happens over there music. This, too, is a fact, which may have zero impact on one's ability to enjoy the music.

So this is the point of contention, and the point at which some people want to learn more, and some do not: Some don't know, and don't care. Some don't know, and care that they don't know, so they learn. Some know, and have to call it as they see it.

Whichever camp you're in, I hope my bias as a professional composer with 22 years of experience also brings with it some measure of academic truth. I have watched the default state of my art plummet in quality over the short career I've had thus far, and I'm ever-vigilant about and against those factors which I know are contributing. The preponderance of average music, cobbled together clumsily in videogames and performed by amateur musicians is part of the problem.

Either way, I don't think less of people for liking one particular composer or music, but I will always encourage a wiser, more informed perspective.


_Mike

The only part of what you say Mike that troubles me is that it sounds eerily similar to the arguments I hear from concert composers about film scores - ie "high art it ain't"! Which game soundtracks in particular are you thinking of?

Videogame music has strengths (and weaknesses) that are particular to the medium and it should be appreciated in such a context.

The only part of what you say Mike that troubles me is that it sounds eerily similar to the arguments I hear from concert composers about film scores - ie "high art it ain't"!

There is a crucial distinction to be made. In some respects, they're absolutely right! Where they're wrong is to assume that there are rigid, dogmatic "rights" and "wrongs." In fact, it was this exact failure that made me bail on my formal education at USC in the 90's - I got tired of the academics with their boring-ass music putting down my filmscoring idols, who wrote music which had actually entered the lexicon and become relevant again, while being damn fun and entertaining.

I mean it when I say that I don't want to take anything away from people who enjoy the work - that's perhaps music's primary contribution and function! But I'm an advocate for balance, and I see things getting decidedly off-balance, when we lose perspective. You must understand, there is a level of craft which is dying. Not diminishing, not slightly out of favor; dying. It's like we are forgetting - en masse - knowledge, wisdom, and craft which we simultaneously acknowledge the value of. I'm not trying to bum people out, I'm saying that if you think this stuff is good, you ain't seen nothin' yet. Keeping that perspective keeps the eye on the great works before us, keeps the bar of expectation high, and gives us our only chance to truly further the art, versus merely pining for the good ol' days.

I'm not an elitist, by any standard, and I mean it when I say I'm glad people still listen to orchestral music at all. As for which games... show me a videogame piece which is musically as competent as Barber's Overture to the School for Scandal which he wrote when he was friggin' 20, and I'll happily stand corrected :) And I roundly reject the notion that the videogame context itself precludes proper theme and development, which is rarely presented competently.


_Mike

While I'm pleased as punch that a young generation has found orchestral music through videogames, it is absolutely a matter of fact - not opinion - that said music is embarrassingly amateur at best when held against the enduring repertoire pieces they draw their inspirations from.

Calling game music "embarrasingly amateur" is doing a great disservice to a great many talented composers. I could say that Koichi Sugiyama is one of the greatest modern writers of classical-style music, but I think I'll just point out Michael Giacchino. The guy got his start writing music for video games� and he won an Oscar this year.

(About Sugiyama: His "Dragon Quest" march is something of a pop icon in Japan. I've been told it's regarded in a way that's similar to the "Star Wars" title scroll over here. Just sayin'.)


You cannot put any videogame score in the same quality bracket as anything by Barber or Shostakovich, despite the clear influences they have in the work. If you do not accept this fact outright, then I would recommend you find your way to the greats, if for no other reason than to reset and calibrate your threshold for what is possible.

No one here has drawn such a comparison, and I personally wouldn't. The same can be said of most film composers, by the way.


On top of poorly trained composers, most of whom can't even orchestrate, I have yet to hear a performance on a videogame soundtrack that wasn't cringe-worthy.

I beg to differ, but what do you mean by performance? A lot of game music is electronic and played by a computer. What particular pieces are you referring to?


Ocarina was also the last time Kondo composed an entire soundtrack. From then on it gets very fuzzy. He's only credited on Twilight Princess because old themes recur and a general 'advisory' role. Aside from the reworkings of past Mario tunes, he contributed only three new themes to Galaxy1 (Good Egg, Rosalina's Observatory and Childhood). I was surprised at first becasue I was convinced Gusty Garden had his stamp on it! There's a team of at least 5 or 6 composers at Nintendo these days, are all trained in the 'house style'. Yokota is the latest and he's clearly a talented guy. Unfortunately, he's already taken to self-pastiche.

Yeah, I'm kind of disappointed in the current state of Kondo's career. He's become more of a producer/supervisor than a creative force.


The logical end point of all this might well be "The Ultimate In User-Generated Experience" and I'm not sure I like it We've already destroyed the value of creative genius enough.

Games are all about the user experience, though. The creativity is in how the designers enable the user.

Oh, Howard Drossin is a good name that I didn't drop. Guy got started writing music for Sonic-freaking-Spinball; now he's worked on various movies, including a couple of Spike Lee joints. He's not as big as Michael "Gargoyles for the Sega Genesis" Giacchino, but he's nevertheless proof that there's no "talent ghetto" in video game music. The whole "tone-deaf kids pounding on Casio keyboards in their garage" thing… it's largely an uninformed myth.

Calling game music "embarrasingly amateur" is doing a great disservice to a great many talented composers.

No it isn't. It's a musicological fact, if you do even a cursory academic comparison.


I think I'll just point out Michael Giacchino. The guy got his start writing music for video games… and he won an Oscar this year.

Professional candor prevents me from addressing this comment further. Suffice it to say I understand with more clarity where you're coming from now. You're right that my comments can be leveled at many film composers. Especially today. I think that's my point.

I feel I need to reiterate that I do not look down on you or anyone else for what you like. Like wine - drink what you like. But Two-buck-Chuck ain't Chateau Lafite. If you think that truth is doing a disservice to the Shaw, it's downright insulting to the Lafite. I'll leave it to you to decide which category that particular composer belongs in.


_Mike

You must understand, there is a level of craft which is dying. Not diminishing, not slightly out of favor; dying. It's like we are forgetting - en masse - knowledge, wisdom, and craft which we simultaneously acknowledge the value of.
Oh I do! But I really think videogames are only a peripheral contributor to this.

What about those of us who worship Barber and still find it possible to enjoy (good) game music? And yes, out-and-out bleepy NES chiptunes, not the Zimmer wannabe crap that's going around at the moment. ;)

It is to do with the particularities of the medium. It always is. Just as it would be absurd to expect the same thing from theatre, television, film, dramatically speaking, I don't expect symphonic development in games (though I'm sure it's possible, as you say). For a start, a composer has to deal with looping tracks that are tied to levels/events - this must factor into your judgment (if perhaps not absolute terms).

In my heart of hearts I know that not much of anything compares with the greatest classical composers.. [where am I going with this?] You're right that there's nothing in VGM that's anywhere near the level of School for Scandal.. but I'd never say otherwise. I don't think the modest enthusiasm expressed here has ever transgressed that 'musicological fact'.

No it isn't. It's a musicological fact, if you do even a cursory academic comparison.

Okay. It's also a "musicological fact" that most of the film composers you listened to in college were rank amateurs compared to whatever guys you want to bring up to discredit game music. Stephen King is also a hack compared to Shakespeare, and Leonardo DaVinci makes the works of Edward Hopper look like the crayon drawings my niece doodles.


I feel I need to reiterate that I do not look down on you or anyone else for what you like. Like wine - drink what you like. But Two-buck-Chuck ain't Chateau Lafite. If you think that truth is doing a disservice to the Shaw, it's downright insulting to the Lafite. I'll leave it to you to decide which category that particular composer belongs in.

I can't tell whether this is a roundabout slam of Giacchino. If so, I'll just say that the guy scored one of the moving animation sequences in history, a scene that the movie's creators deliberately left in the hands of his music… and he won an Oscar for it. His work is going to have a very long shelf life… and he got his start on the Sega Genesis. Maybe John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith aren't Chateau Lafite caliber either. I couldn't care less.

Oh I do! But I really think videogames are only a peripheral contributor to this.

What about those of us who worship Barber and still find it possible to enjoy (good) game music?


But this is the thing - they're NOT peripheral. They're right smack dab in the middle of it, and half the button-pushers/composers are migrating into the filmscoring ranks like cancer cells. Okay, that's a pejorative, but you see what I'm getting at. Don't underestimate the destructive - or potentially positive influence - of video games. And what about you guys? I've said multiple times, have at it! Love it! Buy them, make love to them, whatever, but know what you're getting, and keep it in perspective so we don't lose our perspective.


_Mike

Okay. It's also a "musicological fact" that most of the film composers you listened to in college were rank amateurs compared to whatever guys you want to bring up to discredit game music.

I've acknowledged this twice, as further proof of my point. Forgive me, but are you reading the posts thoroughly?

And regarding Giacchino and others: When they're selling out the Hollywood Bowl with programs of their scores 40 years after they've written them, as they do with Williams scores, then I will be wiling to entertain arguments as to the quality and enduring value of the work. Are they selling out such shows even now?


That's rhetorical.


_Mike

But this is the thing - they're NOT peripheral. They're right smack dab in the middle of it, and half the button-pushers/composers are migrating into the filmscoring ranks like cancer cells. Okay, that's a pejorative, but you see what I'm getting at. Don't underestimate the destructive - or potentially positive influence - of video games. And what about you guys? I've said multiple times, have at it! Love it! Buy them, make love to them, whatever, but know what you're getting, and keep it in perspective so we don't lose our perspective.

I've got every sympathy for your feelings about the decline of film music Mike. I hope I didn't say anything disrespectful (as is implied by the tone of your last post). This is an imagined confrontation of perspectives (at least as far as I'm concerned).

I think a few others can vouch for the fact that I'm no M.G. fan either! ;)

Listen, what I love about this thread (recent contributions notwithstanding) is that we can have dynamically, passionately opposed viewpoints clash without causing total derailment and catastrophic degeneration of the points within points.

I know you don't mean anything disrespectful, and truly, neither do I. But I also don't want to water down my opinions with too much semantics and apologies. You know, especially what with my having had a lifetime to think about them and everything. :)

And in any case, you guys can handle it, and I'll bet can easily see my points within their true context: as coming from a man who has quite literally dedicated his life to the art and love of music composition, and cares about the safety and preservation of the craft with all his heart. It's all good. The passion among this thread's members for film music is truly inspiring.


_Mike

I've acknowledged this twice, as further proof of my point. Forgive me, but are you reading the posts thoroughly?

I'm sorry, you have a point?

To recap:

You call video game music "embarrassingly amateur" according to "musicological fact"; you bring up some vague nonsense about "keeping perspective", as if anyone here has equated, say, Motoi Sakuraba with Mozart; and then you ask if I've read your posts thoroughly.

It seems your only point is that video game music should be discredited, regardless of how well it's made or the talent of the people who write it. Also, you seem to reserve the right to dismiss game music without having to list any examples.


And regarding Giacchino and others: When they're selling out the Hollywood Bowl with programs of their scores 40 years after they've written them, as they do with Williams scores, then I will be wiling to entertain arguments as to the quality and enduring value of the work. Are they selling out such shows even now?

I don't know. Are there any Giacchino scores that are forty years old?

It seems your only point is that video game music should be discredited, regardless of how well it's made.

I have done my best to be as clear as I can be, to no avail. Perhaps we'll discuss this some other time.


_Mike

But this is the thing - they're NOT peripheral. They're right smack dab in the middle of it, and half the button-pushers/composers are migrating into the filmscoring ranks like cancer cells. Okay, that's a pejorative, but you see what I'm getting at. Don't underestimate the destructive - or potentially positive influence - of video games. And what about you guys? I've said multiple times, have at it! Love it! Buy them, make love to them, whatever, but know what you're getting, and keep it in perspective so we don't lose our perspective.


_Mike

Hi Mike. I really respect you, and that makes me curious: Do you think the existence of amateur music hinders composers today from seeking out weightier stuff, learning from it, and composing music that attempts to be as complex?

That certainly casts a dismissive gesture towards free will and inspiration. As someone who is one room over from a woman working herself to the bone on an orchestral piece for a large American orchestra with name-recognition, I don't know that I can agree that there is such a one-to-one influence in the blanket way you've stated it. The decline of film music because of video games?

Certainly, I don't hear a lot of challenging, inspiring, timeless classical music these days. But I don't think those pieces show up every weekend, and I'm troubled by the doomsday tone, which must remind you of what we've heard every generation before us say in regards to art.

To give an example closer to my work, I don't think a book has been written that's in the same class as War and Peace. In fact, I think most books being published are poorly written and shameless attempts to make money--some with a disturbingly relaxed attitude about plagiarism (see: Reality Hunger by David Shields). Amateurish work abounds in every art form. But I still feel like great works are a possibility.

Is that where we differ, or have I misunderstood you? It's so late, it's possible I'm missing your point.

Hope this doesn't come off as confrontational. I'm curious to hear your take on it. :D

Actually we have almost identical takes on the situation. Take your War & Peace example, and substitute Rite of Spring, and that's nearly an omnipresent truth which could be said about music, as well.

But regarding your skepticism about the overall damage done to music by amateur work: consider your neighbor, banging away on that concert piece. The truth is, only a small number of people will hear her work, however brilliant, compared to the bazillion people - myself included - who will spend countless hours with the score to Call of Duty 11 or whatever (whether we want to or not). The truth is, this sort of music is far more pervasive than concert music. Combine that with the throwaway scores to most blockbusters, and you bet your ass it all has a very disruptive effect.


Now, regarding the question you asked about whether great music can still be done: it gets harder every day. Here's why:

I, too, am trying to be like a Barber or Stravinsky. I've studied them to figure out how they learned to do what they did. The answer is not simply raw musicality (though, for sure.... I mean... God...), but more along the lines of total immersion and exposure to training, craft, feedback, mentors, exhibitions of work, and social validation for great work. Likewise, for some of those Russian composers, a failed commission might literally get them shot!

So they had access to unparalleled schooling, training, and reinforcement. Try as we might, we just can't quite replicate that kind of environment, and those conditions are necessary for that sort of profound growth, just like plants. You need good seeds, good soil, AND good weather to produce superior crops, and not every place on Earth has it all.

To generate work approaching that level, without the benefit of all the support systems, you'd at the very least have to be maximizing your training, and exposure to the great works, and even this basic task escapes most up-and-comers. I know, because I know most of the names in film music personally, and I know where their skill levels are, and where their training comes from. It's not a secret that the level of skill has plummeted. Well, if you don't have the skill, you don't have the mentor, you aren't living in a society that truly values the excellence in the first place, your chances of generating work at that level are exceedingly low. Even if you DO take advantage of everything you can, you're still handicapped significantly.

This is part of why I'm such an advocate for keeping the actual quality bar in sight, because we can't really reach it anyway, but if we don't keep trying with all our might, we've got no chance. So "great work"? Man, I have yet to hear it. And I listen all the time, and Lord knows I'm doing my best. But I'm no Stravinsky, that's for damn sure. I may die trying.

I can see how you'd see this as doomsday-like, but I don't see it that way. I see it as Mt. Everest, and every bit as satisfying a reward should we get to the summit. But base camp ain't the top.


_Mike

Well it is no secret that I'm a fan of game music(not all of it mind you! obviously alot is crap). Overall there is some really great things out there, sure maybe not quite the level of mastery of JW, Jerry, Stravinsky, or Prokofiev and I don't expect them to invade popular culture and sell out the hollywood bowl or anything.


But treating people like Wataru Hokoyama (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/24/2487612/01%20Savanna.mp3), Koichi Sugiyama (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/24/2487612//10 Heavenly Flight.mp3), and Takayuki Hattori (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/24/2487612//01%20Lilia%20Symphonic%20Suite.mp3) as lesser composers than they are, because they write for games would be unfair.
In general I try to avoid the term "game music." Because if you lump in some of the poor music with the good music under the same term and generalize...yeah overall its not as great. But with games you often deal with some the other crap to get to the wonderful gems (which aren't uncommon).
*clarification* when I said lesser composers, I meant less than they deserve not less than the greats. I am fully aware that they aren't Stravinsky for example

edit:
This isn't toward anyone here but I have had friends that wouldn't even give some of these composers a chance just because its "game music"

Mike isn't judging the medium or the individual - he is making a fair appraisal of the music in terms of relative quality. The three composers you mentioned are all incredibly good, but they're still not Shostakovich, etc - they're not even Williams or Korngold or Steiner.

I think the point is clear and most mature, level headed folk will understand the level at which this discussion is taking place, without resorting to "You're dissing this guy who wrote THE COOLEST SCORE OF ALL TIME!" - it is the mature, level headed folk who make this thread, after all.

The moral of this discussion is one that I've tried to put forward on a number of occasions, with varying degrees of success - largely dependent on who happens to be arond at the time:

Enjoy whatever you like, and be happy - but understand what is, and what isn't excellence. As a society and a culture, we've already forgotten how to create excellence - if we don't keep these factors in mind, we will soon forget how to recognise excellence... without even that ability, we are surely doomed.

In short, we all enjoy listening to crap from time to time; but don't pretend it's a masterpiece if it is, in fact, simple crap.

Peace :)

Mike isn't judging the medium or the individual - he is making a fair appraisal of the music in terms of relative quality. The three composers you mentioned are all incredibly good, but they're still not Shostakovich, etc - they're not even Williams or Korngold or Steiner.


I'm well aware of that :) and that is why I put that thing at the end of the post , because I wasn't referring to Mike. I was referring to someone who I used to be friends with.
And I definitely wasn't comparing them to the likes of Shostakovich, Korngold, etc. I was just saying they do pretty good work...not exactly excellence but a cut above the crap for sure.

As for game music being amateurish - tell that to Lennie Moore and his Outcast. Imo it's masterpiece, far beyond media music, probabaly on the same level as big classical compositions. Stunning work, that should be performed in concert halls all over the world.


I've said multiple times, have at it! Love it! Buy them, make love to them, whatever, but know what you're getting, and keep it in perspective so we don't lose our perspective.

But why my perspective must be so far? Everything what I hear, I must compare to Beethoven, Dvorak? You are basically saying: almost everything is worse than music from years back. A musicological fact. But music is not about facts...



The three composers you mentioned are all incredibly good, but they're still not Shostakovich, etc - they're not even Williams or Korngold or Steiner.

Why not? Just because they write for games? Only big concert work can be great when comes to technical (and others like that) aspects? Just asking.


In short, we all enjoy listening to crap from time to time; but don't pretend it's a masterpiece if it is, in fact, simple crap.

Well, crap or not, who's the one to tell? If movie scores, game music etc. is crap because it's inferior to great classical music, than I beg to differ. I'm not talking about taste or something like that, rather: why something much more complex, older or written by Russian (;D) must be better than something simplier? Imo Penderecki's music is crap, yet it's complex, sophisticated blah blah blah. Still unlistenable crap, yet music critics says: it's masterpiece, stunning, complex, full of sounds that ear can't stand. Fuck 'em;). I get your point though, for example I like Doomsday score, but I know it's piece of shit. Yet I like it.

And sorry for skipping through subjects like crazy bunny, and taking words out of context. A bit sleepy I am;).

This discussion essentially amounts to musical elitists trying to put us Philistines in our place for daring to listen to something that isn't "musicologically relevant" or isn't written for a movie or isn't written by some zen master. The *fact* is that "excellence" is subjective. To some people, Koichi Sugiyama isn't "crap" — he's excellent. These people aren't musicologists, but who is?

Mike says he's okay with us listening to what we like, want, etc. but then he essentially makes the argument that by doing so we're depriving real musical geniuses of the attention they richly deserve. (Never mind that the concept of musical genius is, again, subjective.) He doesn't make any substantial argument for why game music is inherently inferior to whatever he's comparing it to; instead, he wags his intellectual dick in our slack-jawed faces, because we're obviously stupid for not understanding why the music we listen to is amateur and terrible. Just trust his 20-something years of studying music and achieving no success in the field.

(Of course, the reason he isn't a successful composer is because the rest of the world is too dumb to appreciate "real" music. They're too busy listening to the soundtrack of Death Mutlilator 2000 for the PlayBox 50.)

Sorry, I'm not sipping this guy's Kool-Aid.

And you have every right to enjoy whatever you want. I certainly don't agree with EVERYTHING that has been said, but there is no need to be insulting.

Why can't I insult him? He's insulting us.

Why can't I insult him? He's insulting us.

Uhh...no no ones insulting anyone here..... He's just stating an opinion and not one that I see meant as an insult either.... And no where in any of this line of discussion have I seen commentary about any of us "depriving real musical geniuses of the attention they richly deserve." as you put it.

I listen to game music all the time, AND I listen to music by the greats and I don't think I am doing a disservice to anyone when I listen to game music. It's just what I want to listen to at the time. I will agree that most everything written today cannot hold a candle to anything by Barber or Stravinsky, its just a fact. And that doesn't mean everything modern is crap either. I was listening to Jeremy Soule's music for Total Annihilation the other day, and its absolutely brilliant, but I know when I pop in Holst's The Planets that its on a totally different level of musical mastery. Doesn't make Soule's work any less awesome.

I think people are getting a little too worked up about this. Really guys, lets try to keep things civil, Please

JRL3001, refer to a few posts above where he talks about other people's listening habits having a "disruptive effect." Not to mention that he pretty much came out of nowhere and started talking about how game music is dumbing down the kids who are on ADD and the whatsits, a point that had little relevance to the prior discussion of dynamic music programming in games.

I think the main problem in the recent discussion is that some people don't understand Mike at all.

You have to keep in mind that he STUDIED music and musical theory and everything else essential to compose and conduct it.
As he often points out music is a language and the greater your skill becomes the more expressive you can be.

Now try to compare one of shakespeare's plays with the lyrics of a hip hop song.
You may still enjoy both for whatever reason but you cannot ignore the fact that Shakespeare is objectivly superior.

Now when you listen to Mike's score for Galaxy Legends or his arrangments and after that you listen to Medal of Honor, you may have the right to say that you enjoyed MoH more but you cannot claim that it's objectivly superior in structure and complexity to Mike's music.

I usually say this or that score is great but that is based on my own perspective of music.
In my heart I know that only a few scores written in our time can be put in the same category as the masterpieces of the previous centuries.

spaceworlder: Not to mention defaming a man on his life accomplishments is pretty childish. Your degrading your own intelligence, a lot of the things you said made sense. In example, the interactivity of music was one of them. (Just look at how Dead Space's score is used.)

mike: You make some very valid points. But to say that vgm is in fact, labeled to mediocrity or worse, is much like saying people cannot progress. Your words do sound a touch hypocritical, as you mentioned that your view is based on a mountain view. I agree that vgm is mediocre to garbage, at times. But to view it as incapable of future merit is a bit like saying you don't have a chance at success.

That's what I seem to understand from what you've said, I may be wrong though.

Now try to compare one of shakespeare's plays with the lyrics of a hip hop song.
You may still enjoy both for whatever reason but you cannot ignore the fact that Shakespeare is objectivly superior.

That might be true, but can you point out a part of this discussion where someone compared the gaming greats to people like Bach or Wagner or Hanson? I'm confused myself as to how musicology relates to this discussion.


Now when you listen to Mike's score for Galaxy Legends or his arrangments and after that you listen to Medal of Honor, you may have the right to say that you enjoyed MoH more but you cannot claim that it's objectivly superior in structure and complexity to Mike's music.

How does objectivity apply to something as subjective and emotional as music? It's funny how music is being regarded as if it's a precise science, and yet a few posts ago Mike was making snide remarks about game music and math theory.


Not to mention defaming a man on his life accomplishments is pretty childish. Your degrading your own intelligence, a lot of the things you said made sense.

Maybe so, but I think when you position yourself as an authority on something, you're liable to be scrutinized.

I think the comparison of game music to things "the greats" wrote is off-balance. A game composer for all intents and purposes cannot write "Rite of Spring" for a game. Maybe the closest thing in a game I've heard to a symphony is the entirety of Final Fantasy XII taken together. Music in games tends to be more like songs than classical music, or it's at least as much of one as of the other. As in, some of it takes the classical/orchestral approach and puts it in song format.

So who here thinks The Beatles (or some other band can) compare to the canonical greats? I do. I won't say it's crap because I don't think it is crap. It's a different format, going for different things. It's not merely that popular music gives some more immediate or accessible emotional response. They wrote songs with as good a melody or chord progression as any of the greats, they just happen to have smaller, simpler orchestration and smaller, simpler developments before the piece is over. Doesn't mean the end result sounds or feels less good than any other three minutes of anyone else's music. I guess that leaves open a spot for argument that the symphonic format is greater if it's done right because it's bigger and allows more opportunity, but I say the answer to that is the album format.

If you think film music can be legitimately and favorably compared to classical classics, I don't see why game music is inherently at a disadvantage.

mike: You make some very valid points. But to say that vgm is in fact, labeled to mediocrity or worse, is much like saying people cannot progress.

Not at all, though I made efforts to clarify why excellence is increasingly difficult to attain a few posts back. Truly, we are all at a disadvantage these days. But discussion about the future and what may be possible is peripheral to the main discussion here, which is about what is, today. And what is, today, in vgm, is essentially mediocre music with some better-than-mediocre offerings, and none of it in the same league as the very pieces which inspire the genre. This is a fact, albeit an inconvenient one, but fortunately, does not mean we can't love the music anyway.

This is no great conundrum to me; no paradox; no inescapably mutually-exclusive dichotomy. I know that it is important to keep these modern offerings in perspective, no matter how much we might enjoy them, because we don't have much recent work to remind us of how much more powerful music can be when it is truly masterful. The sheer prevalence of mediocrity is indeed eclipsing the standard in some ways.



I think the comparison of game music to things "the greats" wrote is off-balance. A game composer for all intents and purposes cannot write "Rite of Spring" for a game.

I'm sorry; most of these games are absolutely drawing their inspirations from concert music, and it is totally possible to increase the quality of such music within a videogame context. Happy to prove it if you've got a title you're working on :) If you don't think a John Williams could do more with a 10-second cue than anyone writing for games today, then you're undervaluing just how much skill the man has. And JW ain't no Stravinsky. I doubt he'd disagree. Da Vinci's off-hand sketches are priceless works of art, today, because when you have that level of craft, it shows no matter what the context.



_Mike

I give up. When someone equates opinion with "fact", there's no hope for a constructive discussion. There just isn't.

If I may quote myself from a couple of months back:

An awareness of greatness (or lack thereof) needn’t interfere with ‘satisfaction’ either. And I suspect it doesn’t in most cases. You’d all fall about laughing if I told you some of the tripe I enjoy on a regular basis, but I don’t have to pretend in the sameness of everything or that Great Art is a lie in order to enjoy it.
Musicological facts alone don't guarantee greatness in the sense we're getting at here - the greatness that makes Rite of Spring or Beethoven's 7th such towering masterworks. There's another dimension that's very difficult to describe.

We all need a bit of mental chill out from time to time, and if during that there are glimmers of quality and artistry, wonderful!

I also agree completely about the wider culture insisting on cheap disposable 'thrills' at the expense of all else. This is one of the confusions in our debate. Most people - even many outstandingly intelligent people - couldn't care less about serious art. They don't want to give a painting a long look, they don't want to listen carefully to a symphony. It's not merely a generational thing either; I took my parents to a concert of Vaughan Williams and Tchaikovsky (not exactly hardcore stuff) and they were bored silly! Dad feel asleep. If I took Mum to The Rite of Spring she'd make the riots of the original performance look like a solemn affair.

This is what I meant when I said 'peripheral'.

High Art is doing something completely different and requires a completely different approach. As much as postmodern hubris and the easy availability of everything attempts to convince us otherwise, the psychological chasm between the quick-fix of pop and the long look of art is getting wider and wider.

Da Vinci's off-hand sketches are priceless works of art, today, because when you have that level of craft, it shows no matter what the context.

I doubt they'd be worth so much if it weren't for his name though. If that had never existed and someone drew the very same thing, that artist would probably have a tough time selling it. Da Vinci got so revered because of the level of craft, but now it's so valuable in dollars because of the reverence. Anything he added a solitary brush-stroke to could be sold for millions because of his name.


I'm sorry; most of these games are absolutely drawing their inspirations from concert music...

Most game musicians weren't solely influenced by concert music. Nobuo Uematsu loves The Beatles and Elton John on about the same level as Tchaikovsky and I think it shows in his music. Lots of others say Yellow Magic Orchestra inspired them. I've seen lots cite Ravel and film music composers and electronic or techno music. Seems most are just as much into popular and rock music as they are classical. Maybe that's part of the problem you perceive though.

A lot of game settings don't call for orchestral music anyway. There's tons out there that has no orchestral aspiration at all. I really don't think by any means is it true that "most of these games are absolutely drawing their inspirations from concert music." Like which games are you talking about when you think of game music? You mentioned Call of Duty, but I think a lot of game music fans don't care for the music in that anyway. There is a lot of mediocre generic orchestral out there, especially in Western games (OrangeC could so flame me if he didn't just abandon the forum a couple days ago, haha), but I mentioned Final Fantasy XII. I make no illusion that I have your education or training or experience - you've been in music just a little longer than I've been alive - but I think FFXII, and Hitoshi Sakimoto in general, is excellent orchestral music. If other people's ears were piqued from hearing that kind of stuff in a game, then I think it brings the world a tiny bit closer to your ideal.

Lens -

One thing I don't subscribe to is the idea of art-or-commerce as mutually exclusive. When I was first starting out professionally, I had to look at this carefully because it was always presented to me as either/or. You could sum up my posts in this debate by saying, "with all things, balance," and I believe the same can be said in regards to High Art versus...whatever, really. I have always believed that in the hands of a master, music can at once satisfy the most discerning academic, yet be totally fun and accessible to everyone else. It was clear to me from the outset that there would be more non-musicians in my audience than musicians, and I didn't want to end up like the academics I met at USC, who couldn't write a note of interesting music, but it was all academically "perfect." I had grown up playing in rock bands, and writing Big Band charts and whatnot. But I also noticed that most of the truly endearing - and enduring - music which the general populace at large embraced was written by masters. I'm talking now about pieces which have thrived and survived over hundreds of years, in music, art, sculpture, literature. The one common factor was true craft mastery. We do not see true craft mastery among the youngest generation, and that is simply not open to debate. There are quantifiable skills which one has or doesn't have, which are certainly readily apparent (or not) to those with training.

@nothingtosay: I'm talking about orchestral vgm scores, though the principles for musical development certainly apply to any genre. But again, I'm certainly glad we hear the orchestral palette at all these days.


_Mike

One thing I don't subscribe to is the idea of art-or-commerce as mutually exclusive.
Nor do I, after all I'm saying good things are possible, even in vgm. I'm a massive film fan and work in the field myself. What I am trying to say, and you implied as much in your initial post about twitter, is that there is a gradation of intent and effect. Not everything has to pander to ADD. I firmly believe that anyone can enjoy classical music, great painting and so on. We live in an amazing age when mass commerce allows total accessibility. But it also has an ugly side. Art has to be sincere. It can't be throwaway.

The majority of people wouldn't find Stravinsky's Rite "totally fun and accessible". That's not a problem. It's a work that challenges us and our complacent expectations - and that's why it feels so exciting.

The great potential of mass cultural media is being able to slip quality in by the back door, to challenge and excite. No one would have expected Star Wars to have as rich a musical tapestry as it did. And aren't we all a little better off for it? [I'm preaching to the converted again! ;)].

Indeed, agreed on all counts. In all genres, we are standing on the shoulders of giants. I hardly need tell you how clearly most pop/rock music progressions show their roots in classical era music. But craft is down everywhere. I remember hearing Billy Joel lay into pop "musicians" these days in an interview, basically asking what it means to be a musician anymore. In his day, you had be to be able to do things: sing, play an instrument, possibly write lyrics, even... read and write music! You can sell a million records today with zero skills. What you need are breasts, a 50 year-old ghostwriter, and an Antares plug-in for Pro Tools.

We just cannot hide from the aggregate, destructive effect of that. But you're right, with the unprecedented access to information and exposure we have now, things could, and should, be going in completely the opposite direction.

I'm member of a composition forum, as well, and it's interesting to note that even in that environment, actual musical study and review takes a far second to issues like whose sample libraries sound the best... as they plod through horrific music. And occasionally, truly masterful professionals will offer and attempt to engage in bonafide, shockingly useful (sometimes gold nugget-laden) discussion and criticism which could propel a fellow composer much higher into their craft, and it largely falls on deaf ears. So even in the friendliest environment, I find the struggle to preserve craft a difficult one. That's part of why I'm so passionate and vigilant about it.

_Mike

Right, time for some of the REAL STUFF ;)

SAMUEL BARBER
ADAGIO, SYMPHONY NO.1, SCHOOL FOR SCANDAL, ESSAYS

Baltimore Symphony Orchestra conducted by David Zinman



MP3-V0 + Booklet Scans
http://www.multiupload.com/D1X1WZHXYJ

Full tracklist as follows:

1. Adagio for strings (arr. from 2nd mvt. of String Quartet), Op. 11 (8:46)
2. The School for Scandal, overture for orchestra, Op. 5 (8:21)
3. Essay for orchestra, Op. 12 (8:10)
4. Music for a Scene from Shelley, for orchestra, Op. 7 (9:01)
5. Second Essay, for orchestra, Op. 17 (10:31)
6. Symphony No. 1, Op. 9 - Allegro, ma non troppo (6:49)
7. - Allegro molto (4:11)
8. - Andante tranquillo (4:28)
9. - Con moto (3:55)


Enjoy! :)

SAMUEL BARBER
ADAGIO, SYMPHONY NO.1, SCHOOL FOR SCANDAL, ESSAYS


Hey I have this CD :) Good stuff

Good stuff, indeed! I wonder if you've heard Slatkin/St.Louis Symphony's School for Scandal - my favorite performance.


Thanks!

_Mike

Indeed, great performance. I am somewhat overrun with Barber, because he is from where I lived for a long time.

(a person could be overrun with alot worse ;))

I'm not sure that I've heard school for scandal or symphony one. I've definitey heard the adagio. Medea's meditation and dance of revenge is terrific as well. I haven't heard tons of barber, but I love it to bits.

I already have all of those, just with different albums. Great stuff all around! The amusing thing is that I heard both the Adagio and the School for Scandal first in a videogame. Adagio was used as the "Kharak" theme in Homeworld, while School for Scandal was used in the Warcraft III mod "War of Corruption" (as well as Rite of Spring and Firebird!).

Good stuff, indeed! I wonder if you've heard Slatkin/St.Louis Symphony's School for Scandal - my favorite performance.
Not yet, but I surely will! There's an EMI twofer I've got my eye on.

A brief word in for the Shelly Music as well - impassioned and sublime! I love the way it ebbs away at the end, captured beautifully here by both performance and recording, as are Barber's enormous deterministic climaxes throughout.

Hex - I'm shocked that Warcraft featured Scandal!! I can't imagine it!

Hex - I'm shocked that Warcraft featured Scandal!! I can't imagine it!

Actually, it wasn't Warcraft III itself, but a custom campaign called War of Corruption that featured it one of the levels. That introduced me to a great deal of classical music back in the day.

...I should probably re-download it and see what classical music I have not managed to find yet. :P

Okay, so I decided to download it, and I'd thought we do a little project here. Time for a first in this thread: identify some orchestral music!

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0GXFFRGJ

I uploaded all of the music featured in the Wacraft III custom campaign "War of Corruption" in a rar for your convenience.

Here are the few that I have managed to identify:

"Elf Tower Climax", "Elf Tower Boss" - I am positive this is featured in either Stravinsky's Firebird of The Rite of Spring. I'd wager on the former.

"Elf Tower Procession", "Elf Tower Final Procession" - This is Barber's School for Scandal, as I had noted previously.

"Flight of Death" - This is shamelessly Stokowski's re-imagining of Mussorgosky's Night on Bald Mountain.

"March of the Trees" - I am 90% certain this is Stravinsky.

And that's all I've got. Out of the 23 .mp3 files, I can only identify only 6 of them. With the rest of you guys chipping in, I'm sure we can figure out the rest.

SAMUEL BARBER
ADAGIO, SYMPHONY NO.1, SCHOOL FOR SCANDAL, ESSAYS

Baltimore Symphony Orchestra conducted by David Zinman


Many thanks for this Barber album, Lens! I've been familiar with the Adagio for a while thanks to its use in "Platoon" and "Elephant Man" (and hilariously in "Seinfeld") and greatly enjoy his Cello Concerto, which I have on a Naxos release. After reading the recent discussion, I was very keen to listen to the School for Scandal. Very impressed with it, as well as the first Essay for Orchestra. Can't wait to hear the rest; perfect opportunity to expand my knowledge of a great composer!

Just a quick comment regarding the debate on excellence: I don't think anyone was advocating that we expect the next truly great symphonic masterwork in games or that we're wrong to enjoy the music for what it is, but rather we should be mindful of the entire spectrum of artistic quality and where the music that we love would place.

For example, I greatly enjoy the film posters of John Alvin and Drew Struzan. They're beautiful, evocative, and wonderful to look at. They are vastly superior to today's lazy, Photoshopped horrors. But they aren't Renaissance masterworks. They can be inspired by the masters and emulate many of their techniques, but at the end of the day, the posters just aren't operating at the same level of craft and artistry. That's fine with me. I still treasure them, but I can also put into perspective where they belong on the quality spectrum.

I believe that Mike was simply inferring that we should do the same with game music. I love the Distant Worlds albums, but the day we can no longer differentiate One-Winged Angel from Alexander Nevsky is the day when Stephenie Meyer will be held in the same regard as Shakespeare.

[NOTE: I am in no way suggesting that Uematsu is on the same [low] level as Twilight, merely engaging hyperbole to emphasize my point.]

"Elf Tower Climax", "Elf Tower Boss" - I am positive this is featured in either Stravinsky's Firebird of The Rite of Spring. I'd wager on the former.


Indeed "Elf Tower Boss" is Danse Infernal. I absolutely love the Firebird and don't listen to it nearly often enough.

I haven't listened to them all yet
but from the 3 tracks i did

"Summoner Boss" is Rite of Spring (I believe part of Harbingers of Spring and the Mock Abduction)

I started going through your War of Corruption thing, and found some other bits:



Both Belshasnavaar bits , and all three prologues are from Barber's Medea's meditation and dance of vengeance. (these people sure like Barber, don't they)

Firestorm and March of the Trees are both from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet

Summoner Boss and Summoner opening (and Boss Summoning as well, I believe) are from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring

I feel like I've heard some of the others before--especially encampment--but I don't remember where they are from, which embarrasses me...



edit: Looks like shadowonthesun beat me to Summoner Boss...

Summoner Boss and Summoner opening (and Boss Summoning as well, I believe) are from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring

edit: Looks like shadowonthesun beat me to Summoner Boss...

;) And the "Summoner Opening" is the Sacrificial Dance from Rite if anyone wanted to know the movement.

I believe that Mike was simply inferring that we should do the same with game music.

Not quite. He hijacked this discussion by making an asinine dismissal of the craft and talent behind game music, then he covered his ass (and his poorly mounted argument) by making up some shit about how he was really trying to teach us to "look at things in perspective." (Even though none of the game music enthusiasts here demonstrated a lack thereof.)

Not quite. He hijacked this discussion by making an asinine dismissal of the craft and talent behind game music, then he covered his ass (and his poorly mounted argument) by making up some shit about how he was really trying to teach us to "look at things in perspective." (Even though none of the game music enthusiasts here demonstrated a lack thereof.)

I don't think Mike did any of the things you are accusing him of. I saw his comments as sparking a conversation about the merit (or lack thereof) of video game music. I find you to be the main voice of contention in this discussion.

While his comments were stern in a way, I don't really think they were out of bounds. I agree with parts of both of your arguments, and I hope we can talk about them without resulting to insults and name calling. There has been civil discussion after civil discussion in this thread, and I expect it to stay that way.

Whoops missed another Stravinsky

"Elf Tower Climax" is also the Sacrificial Dance from Rite of Spring

OK, update time!

"Elf Tower Climax", "Elf Tower Boss" - I am positive this is featured in either Stravinsky's Firebird of The Rite of Spring. I'd wager on the former.

"Elf Tower Procession", "Elf Tower Final Procession" - This is Barber's School for Scandal, as I had noted previously.

"Flight of Death" - This is shamelessly Stokowski's re-imagining of Mussorgosky's Night on Bald Mountain.

"Summoner Boss, Summoner Opening" - Stravinsky's Rite of Spring

"Belshanasavar" and Prologue - Barber's Medea's Meditation and Dance of Vengeance

"Firestorm" and "March of the Trees" - Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet


That gives us 14 out of 23 tracks. I am still awaiting for the revelation of the Elf Melee theme - I fell in love with it all those years ago when this campaign was first unleashed onto the internet, and I still want to know the source of it now!

March of the trees is listed twice. It's definitely Romeo and Juliet, entitled "Montagues and Capulets" or "Dance of the Knights" depending on what version you look at...

I remember as a kid hearing some of the classic repertoire pieces in cartoons... now it's videogames. Evolution!


_Mike

-

OK, update time!

"Elf Tower Climax", "Elf Tower Boss" - I am positive this is featured in either Stravinsky's Firebird of The Rite of Spring. I'd wager on the former.

Just to be clear, they are from two different pieces. Climax is from Rite of Spring and Boss is from the Firebird.

Michiru Oshima - Ashita no Kioku (Memories of Tomorrow) (2006)



01. Main Title
02. Gain
03. Loss
04. Conscious Symptoms
05. Screening Test
06. Unknown Subordinate
07. Unbelievable Truth
08. Escaping From Dispair
09. The Doctor's Revelation
10. Knowing About The Illness
11. Memories From Youth (Encounter)
12. Memories From Youth (Declaration)
13. A New Life
14. Memories Of Tomorrow (Thankfulness)
15. Wandering
16. Sinecure
17. Shout Of The Heart
18. Encouragement
19. Memories Of Tomorrow (Passing Times)
20. Blossoming Life
21. Hardships
22. Bondings
23. The Road To Failure
24. Nursing Facility
25. Burning The Weeds
26. Memories Of Tomorrow


Format: mp3
Bitrate: cbr 224
Size: 74,5 MB


http://rapidshare.com/files/254457716/MO-AnkMT.rar

Hello,

I would like to inquire if anybody has any of these soundtracks by Oshima Michiru, Watanabe Toshiyuki & Senju Akira:


I would put requests in the Film Score/VGM Hunt thread

Hmm... I've been unable to access the forum for the past few days and it looked like I missed some interesting discussion. :( Now, at the risk of attracting some flak fired towards me, I'll chime in with some of my own thoughts...

I have to say, some of my favourite composers now are Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Tschaikovsky, Goldenthal, Stravinsky... but I didn't start liking them. I started off liking orchestral scores for games; eventually got caught up in film scores, left the games behind for the most part; then ended up in the "conventional", classical (or, more precisely, the romantic and modern). Interestingly, my taste seems to have changed as my study has developed also. They've certainly changed! But looking back... I don't get nearly as much enjoyment out of the old game scores I used to adore; they no longer seem to have the same amount of satisfaction, expertise, emotional and intellectual depth when compared alongside, say, Prokofiev. The performances, as well, are often vastly inferior. A stir tends to occur whenever a video game gets a live orchestral score- even when said recordings are totally lackluster, underwhelming and shoddy. Is video game music amateurish, less intellectual compared to the "greats"? Do they not deserve to stand on the same ground as them?

I'm inclined to say... yes.

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes- or criticise any other composer- but I come to this conclusion based for the most part, on myself. I'm still only studying and getting to grips with music as a whole. I'm also younger than experts and professionals like Mike by about the worse part of 1/2 decades... but I've already started getting into video game music. Nothing large, of course, but some reasonable things. I can tell my music isn't anywhere as good, and I'm not really satisfied with much I write. But people seem to love it. It makes me feel guilty, awkward in a way, although that might just be due to my own dissatisfaction. I'm pretty much an amateur, and I can feel it- but for my work to be accepted in VG, while I probably couldn't stand on two feet in a classical concert world... well...



I'm member of a composition forum, as well, and it's interesting to note that even in that environment, actual musical study and review takes a far second to issues like whose sample libraries sound the best... as they plod through horrific music. And occasionally, truly masterful professionals will offer and attempt to engage in bonafide, shockingly useful (sometimes gold nugget-laden) discussion and criticism which could propel a fellow composer much higher into their craft, and it largely falls on deaf ears. So even in the friendliest environment, I find the struggle to preserve craft a difficult one. That's part of why I'm so passionate and vigilant about it.

_Mike

This kind of attitude is rooted everywhere. To take a direct quote from somebody in a team I once worked with- "I don't care if you're an OMG COOL or intelligent composer. The actual sound quality of it utterly outweighs any merit the music itself might have". Now, I do get what he is getting at here... the average Joe isn't going to be too concerned about the music, but if it "sounds" sub-par, he's just going to be blocking his ears out. Nobody outside the enthusiasts will probably be bothered about the actual music itself. A lot like how some good scores that received some pretty shoddy performances, in a way. Anyway, I digress; now this may only have been one single quote, you can probably guess what I mean and how I feel. It's worrying, and even though I'm only an amateur myself- it saddens me a bit. This probably also links back in to the whole Zimmer thing. You can write the Rite of Spring, which is all very nice and excellent, but people will probably be booing you from miles away. You could also write Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, Beethoven's fifth, but if it doesn't /sound/ good, they'll still be booing you. Best to just go with something that everybody is familiar with :(

As I said, I don't meant to step on anyone's toes, and I apologise if it seems I have. But it's how I honestly feel about things.

Good stuff, indeed! I wonder if you've heard Slatkin/St.Louis Symphony's School for Scandal - my favorite performance.


Yeah I have heard that recording, its brilliant. If I could ever find a copy... :P


I already have all of those, just with different albums. Great stuff all around! The amusing thing is that I heard both the Adagio and the School for Scandal first in a videogame. Adagio was used as the "Kharak" theme in Homeworld, while School for Scandal was used in the Warcraft III mod "War of Corruption" (as well as Rite of Spring and Firebird!).

Yeah! I love how the Adagio was used as the main theme in Homeworld(One of my all time favorite computer games!). It totally set the mood for the game, being the first music heard after the opening cut scene, and then again when you get back to your planet and its been burned.

Composition for static media shouldn't even be considered in the same category as VGM. Game media (outside of cutscenes) demands shorter, repetitive themes.

...and I don't think Mike is necessarily incorrect with some of his statements. The presentation of them is the problem. We are at Final Fantasy Shrine, after all.

I understand your point of view Aoiichi_nii-san. Now here is where I differ slightly. While yes, a large portion of it isn't technically outstanding or complex and less quality can be "acceptable", but that doesn't mean there aren't alot of good works too. I can't refer to game music as a whole as amateur and I certainly can't call Lenni Moore's Outcast or Koichi Sugiyama amateur. I guess the thing is at least to me "amateur" has a negative tone. Sort of like how average doesn't mean bad, but people so often use average as the low end of quality.

I just think we should make sure we make a distinction that just because something isn't quite "excellent", doesn't mean its bad. There is no question that these guys aren't exactly Shostakovich or Prokofiev...but there are definitely composers that are still quite good.

Another thing that I lose perspective of sometimes is the fact that we live in the present so the amateur music seems alot more pervasive. Its true, no doubt, that there is more amateurism than ever right now. As Mike/Billy Joel said you don't exactly need any talent to be a musical success now.
But what I forget about so often is that there has always been poor attempts...but its good quality that lives on, the others are forgotten. Even 10 years from now, will people be listening to CoD: Modern Warfare? I doubt it, but will the Tokyo Metropolitan Orchestra and London Philharmonic Orchestra still be playing Dragon Quest like they have for the past 20 years? I think so. In other words I know the crap will eventually be forgotten, and i hope its as soon as possible.

Back to the game topic though....I just don't like talking about "game music" as a whole. It is way to varied in quality to talk about all together in my opinion.

-

VIVA PI�ATA
GRANT KIRKHOPE

The City of Prague Philharmonic conducted by Nic Raine



MP3-V0
http://www.multiupload.com/Y0UACUW7H7

Now I'm sticking my neck out here. Not only is this VGM, but it's also performed by the dreaded C.O.P Phil! ;) I don't want to linger on truisms about how this isn't Prokofiev or Sibelius, but it IS an absolutely lovely score and the orchestra are on fine form. I'm surprised it hasn't featured in the thread thus far.

Grant Kirkhope was originally a trumpet player by trade and attended The Royal Northern College of Music. He joined Rare in 1995, working on many of the N64 classics. Viva Pinata is a million miles away from his moody music for Goldeneye and Perfect Dark or the looney-tunes-meets-cockney-knees-up of Banjo Kazooie, glowing with innocent pastoral melodies and simple sonorous orchestrations. It was nominated for a BAFTA award in 2007.

This is my own rip from the cd soundtrack, with one addition. I've slotted in "Fields of Gold" (Day 6 from the game audio files) where it felt right musically in the sequence of the album. Why this track was left out I don't know - it's simply to sweet to miss :)

Quote from Kirkhope's website:

When it came to the recording sessions it was really quite emotional. By that time I knew I was going to be leaving Rare, which was a tough decision, but I hadn’t told anyone yet. I remember the last piece the orchestra played was “Bedtime Story”. This piece is my all time favourite of all the music I wrote while at Rare and is very close to my heart. After they finished playing it I had to go out into the main recording area to thank the orchestra for playing so beautifully, I got up on to the conductors rostrum and tried to say a few words, but just burst into tears..

Indeed that is a lovely album that i thought about posting many times but never got around to it.
Awesome relaxing small ensemble work.

I often put on "tranquil hours" and just sit back, its so pleasant.

Yes. I certainly wouldn't feel too bad about my children being exposed to such charming music [notional children ;)].

It's worth noting that this soundtrack features music from both Viva Pinata and Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise, for those who casre about such things.

On snowy winter mornings I turn on the snow/winter tracks from Viva Pinata and look out the window. Its so pleasant. :)

For what it's worth, the vicious Prague (and anybody else) bashing is the only part of Mike's standpoint I don't really agree with.

I know the CoP orchestra aren't the best in the world, and some of their performances are downright lazy. But when they're well rehearsed and in a good mood, they're very very solid and turn out as a very good (if a little workmanlike) symphony.

It's not all about perfection; Mike's in love with the LA Studio orchestras. For what it's worth, sure, they're all top-flight players, the best in their field, all section leaders (first chairs to you Americans) and what have you - but they're a freelancing composite orchestra. They turn up, read the scores, play them, and go home. Very nice, excellent performance, but often I get a sense of... I don't know... sterility from them. Technically they may be unsurpassed (or at least at the top with others) but a fine ensemble like the London Symphony Orchestra will beat them every single time for me. The LSO is one of the world's finest; the players are the cream of the crop, of course, but they play together not just [/i]at the same time[/i].

Mike - you need to come to London and conduct the LSO in Abbey Road. If you're ever in town, give me a bell and I'll show you around London. :)

Anyway, back to my point; endless perfection isn't the be-all and end-all. CoP may hit bum notes a little more often than others - they may be off in their intonation, come in a little late or early, but in the end they're a big group of human beings making music together.

My local symphony (The Wandsworth Symphony Orchestra) are pretty good - in fact, for a amateur community orchestra they are absolutely exceptional - but they're not perfect. I still go to their concerts because for me it's not about flawless precision - it's about people sharing great art.

Some folk would prefer perfection above anything - even reality. I think Mike said earlier that if he couldn't have a flawless orchestral performance he'd rather have a synthesizer. Personally, I'd chose flawed humans over a perfect machine any day of the week. That's just me. :)

The CoP seems to get a few hit-and-misses around. I remember hearing Battle beyond the stars performed by them- to cut it short, it was err, pretty awful. But then, on the very same album, there was a Capricorn One suite and Star Trek II- wow! Although both kept a slight rough edge to the sound, I found in the context it gave it a much more powerful sound, rather than a feeling of sloppiness.

One thing I've noticed is that I seem to have a knack for hearing the actual 'sound' made by an ensemble. While recordings made by the LA or US orchestras are very technically excellent, they seem to lack... character? It just seems to be lacking something. I greatly prefer the sounds of the Brits, such as the LSO, LMO, RSNO, or the Philharmonia... but maybe I'm just culturally biased due to actually living in England.

I've got some new thoughts on the game issue…

After much rumination, I've come to the conclusion that writing music for something like a video game requires greater imagination and creativity than scoring a movie. In some ways, game music is truer to the classical tradition than movie music. They demand that the composer write material based on ideas in their head or experiences observing/playing the game. Unlike a movie, everything isn't neatly layed out like a blueprint. This even applies to, yes, dynamic game music.

Watch the video on Mike Verta's web site. Observe how he regards his subject like a combat general regards a battlefield, moving obstinatos around like footsoldiers. He's formulating plans, not music. In games, you can't plan a level like a scene. The composer's job boils down to evoking the essence of something, whether it's a village path carpeted with cherry blossoms (Tales of Vesperia) or a desperate struggle against a mutating hulk of flesh (Resident Evil 2). In the latter case, Capcom's sound team didn't have "beats" to work around; they had to imagine how the player's confrontation would play out and then write music that could evoke the full emotional/visceral range of the battle.

I had some more thoughts about modern tastes and the current state of "classical/orchestral music" as well, but I've decided to hold back on that. My passion lies more with the game music topic anyway. I think game composers and their music deserve more than to be merely dismissed like peons, the bottom of a hierarchy. I've seen the word "fact" used a lot in this discussion. Well, it is a *fact* that the music of Dragon Quest is culturally relevant to Japan in the same John Williams' is to America. Just sayin'.

Viva el game music, and thanks for the "Viva Pinata" upload, Lens.

One thing I've noticed is that I seem to have a knack for hearing the actual 'sound' made by an ensemble. While recordings made by the LA or US orchestras are very technically excellent, they seem to lack... character? It just seems to be lacking something. I greatly prefer the sounds of the Brits, such as the LSO, LMO, RSNO, or the Philharmonia... but maybe I'm just culturally biased due to actually living in England.

EXACTLY. The UK orchestras (well, to be honest, any country's professional symphony, although I am certainly biased as a born and bred Londoner) have a certain presence that some of these studio-based ensembles miss.

I'm sorry - I'm going off topic again. How about I post some music to even things out a bit? ;)

I think Mike said earlier that if he couldn't have a flawless orchestral performance he'd rather have a synthesizer. Personally, I'd chose flawed humans over a perfect machine any day of the week. That's just me. :)

This.

The music itself, and it's interpretation, is much more important, to me, than perfection. I've listened to recordings that others think are not very good (but which I liked), but I still retained the same impression of the work itself after hearing recommended recordings of the same composition. Not that I didn't notice the differences in timbre, intonation, etc. It's just not that big of an issue to me.

I've got some new thoughts on the game issue�

After much rumination, I've come to the conclusion that writing music for something like a video game requires greater imagination and creativity than scoring a movie. In some ways, game music is truer to the classical tradition than movie music.

I agree with this and I've heard this very point mused over on a number of occasions. Some people think it's harder, because it requires greater imagination and creativity - and some think it's easier for exactly the same reasons; imagination and creativity isn't being dictated to such an extent by the physical requirements of the film.

Game music is drawn with considerably wider strokes. The music cues in a game score are (or could be) like miniature symphonic poems; not underscoring specific actions, but functioning as musical evocations of a scene, or a place, or a person, or an event.

With game music, you have stricter criteria to meet. No two people are going to play the game exactly alike so you need to produce a piece that will work for that specific situation/area while taking into consideration that player A might go right and player B might go left. Add to that the need to have a piece that can repeat indefinitely, as you have no idea how long the player will remain in that area.

I've got some new thoughts on the game issue…

After much rumination, I've come to the conclusion that writing music for something like a video game requires greater imagination and creativity than scoring a movie. In some ways, game music is truer to the classical tradition than movie music. They demand that the composer write material based on ideas in their head or experiences observing/playing the game. Unlike a movie, everything isn't neatly layed out like a blueprint. This even applies to, yes, dynamic game music.

Viva el game music, and thanks for the "Viva Pinata" upload, Lens.

You're right, in a good number of ways. Quite a number of times, I've only had basic screenshots, walls of text/story or a hodgepodge IRC conversation to get the gist of what's going on. However, I would argue the "ideas in their head" part- while it's true, I have my own ideas about how something might be, or turn out- the people who are making this also have their own ideas. Very often these won't match! While it's very nice to do your own thing, you have to really get to and drag out what the developers want as well, lest you run the risk of creating something that is out of place or unsuitable.

Another thing is that I don't necessarily think games require a greater amount of imagination, or creativity. Films and video games could be said to require different kinds of creativity. For example, I could compose something for a level, and it might have a major change made to it sometime in development- but the music might still fit at the end. However, scoring a movie clip, if an edit gets made, a few seconds cut off, etc, then poof! The whole thing might not work any more. To be able to deal with that kind of thing, it requires a slightly different work ethic. Then again, games have cutscenes.



As pointed out, one of the main differences is that game music is (or can be) dynamic, while movies are linear. However, just because something is linear, doesn't mean there's less room for creativity. In some ways, composing dynamic game music can be more restrictive (sounds rather counter-intuitive, right?). While a film or movie clip might go from A -> B, ingame play might go from A to B or C or D on a much more "fragment" style approach. In this way, the music has to be suitable for all 3 choices rather than heading to one place, leaving less elbow-room. It can also leave less room for appropriately putting down themes, and appropriately developing them.

The only orchestra I am able to see on a regular basis any more is the Philadelphia Orchestra and every once and a while I catch the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Both are very solid but I understand your love for the LSO. :)

I don't know when I can go see a live orchestra next...I might catch George Fenton conducting Planet Earth with The Philadelphia Orchestra.

Oh sweet Jesus, thank you fro the Viva Pinata. <# And of course, you het your dues too, Lens. ;P

As for this recent debate, I had something much longer and more eloquent to say, but that was before the drink took me for the evening. Instead, I'll just ask: who cares? Why hold all music to tiers of "greatness" that can never be reached? It's all just music, why must a piece be an astoundingly complew diamond kalidoscope of structure and blaring bombast to be on some nebulous higher level? All I know is, I can proudly and gladly listen to Visiting the Harbours of the World, U.B., Summond Beast Battle, and even Mario 64's Main Theme right alongside the Miraculous Mandarin Suite and The Wooden Prince and love them all equally, for different reasons, for the audible bliss they grant. Tis all that matters.

I'm gobsmacked by the music for Viva Pinata. This is a tremendous soundtrack.

You're welcome guys! Are we generally agreed that the COPP play pretty well here? There's a ripeness and a 'grain' to their sound (strings and woodwinds especially) that I find very appealing.

I remember hearing Battle beyond the stars performed by them- to cut it short, it was err, pretty awful. But then, on the very same album, there was a Capricorn One suite and Star Trek II- wow! Although both kept a slight rough edge to the sound, I found in the context it gave it a much more powerful sound, rather than a feeling of sloppiness.
Their recording of the Capricorn One Overture is like a force of nature! The fact that they don't have it down to a nicety and the brass are rather breathless and bloaty makes it more exciting - they're audibly struggling and it has you on the edge of your seat!

An important point about the strenght of game music is the combination of visual image, sound and most importantly your own actions.

A very good example of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kki8LhtnRw

In Shadow of the Colossus the music dynamicly changes when you spot a colossus, chase him and finally climb him.
Your actions determine the character of the music and in a sense you control it because it will change or develop based on your progress in the fight.

Scenes like these are an excellent opportunity for every talented composer and if that opportunity will be used by a composer with the skill and talent of Goldsmith, Williams or even Tschaikovsky I can only dream about the possebilities.

Some people think it's harder, because it requires greater imagination and creativity - and some think it's easier for exactly the same reasons; imagination and creativity isn't being dictated to such an extent by the physical requirements of the film.

With film music you're trying to satisfy the edit, the director's vision, the producer's potentially different vision, the viability/sellability of a potential soundtrack, a temp score, a budget, an unreasonable schedule, and 90+ musicians.

If videogame music lends itself to mini-symphonic movements, then the need for training I've talked about becomes that much more important. I think we're having a hard time separating some of these issues. It is important to remember that a piece can have mastery and execution of musical craft and still be totally satisfying and commercial. Rite of Spring isn't easy for everyone to handle; you don't lead off an album with it. Come to think of it, when I was doing Jazz albums in the 90's that's precisely what I did - out of 12 songs, I made sure there were 4 "easy ones," for the radio stations to pick up and play; 4 "medium" ones that listeners would be on the fence about for awhile after they bought the album, and 4 "hard" tunes they would absolutely skip over. In 6 months, however, the ranks would shift: they'd burn out on the simple "hit tunes," find gems in the mediums, and usually the hard tunes would become their favorites. The difference was complexity. The hard tunes required more of the listener - they were more musically dense and sophisticated, but ultimately more satisfying and lasting. I just had to lead the audience to them, by winning their confidence with the radio favorites. But even the simple tunes were academically tight.

So let's dispel the notion that videogame music has to be judged by different standards; it's not true. There is a lot of really stupid music out there that I love to listen to because it's fun. There's nothing "wrong" with that! Not every piece of music has to be Rite of Spring. But we don't have ANY Rite of Springs anymore; that's the issue. It's the preponderance, the prevalence of amateur work passing as professional that's causing an imbalance, and legitimately hurting everyone and I'm repeating myself.


Oh, and Tango - the LA guys sound sterile under sterile direction. But I love LSO, and agree they absolutely have a wonderful quality not heard here at all. I would jump at any chance to work with them. Only a matter of time, I suppose...


_Mike

There's nothing "wrong" with that! Not every piece of music has to be Rite of Spring. But we don't have ANY Rite of Springs anymore; that's the issue.


Now there's something I agree with. Too many people aren't interested in futhering their craft (and sometimes even their own skill/knowledge)

...out of 12 songs, I made sure there were 4 "easy ones," for the radio stations to pick up and play...

So you sacrificed some measure of perfection for accessibility/monetary/notoriety?

Professional is professional. There is no passing off as professional. If you got paid for it, you're a professional. Now, has the level of said professionalism declined?..that's a different issue.

Maybe you will compose the next Rite of Spring.

...and I'm repeating myself

But with terms and the tone that represents a man just trying to say something that is so right, instead of giving the impression of a superior mindset. As an English major I applaud your "diversity" in word choices, but even I was beginning to be overwhelmed. :)

This isn't just true in Videogame's music - it also applies to videogames themselves. So many videogames that do nothing for the medium, but are just good, dumb, fun games are lauded as the best thing to come out. Many reviewers do this - such as Seth Schiechel of the NY Times. He doesn't so much as review the game as he does review "videogames" themselves, if that makes any sense.

It's a problem with videogames being a relatively young medium. It's like the younger sibling trying to impress the older one. It really has not found it's place in the entertainment world, so it tries to copy it's older siblings to mixed results.

So you sacrificed some measure of perfection for accessibility/monetary reasons?

No, as I said, even the simple tunes were academically tight. ("Perfection"? Let's say you meant craft...)



Let me break down my points as simply as I possibly can:

1) Artists should endeavor to be true masters of their craft.

2) Historically, the most enduring and influential pieces of art are created by masters - this is true across all disciplines.

3) Mastery of craft does not imply complexity, but instead competence and sophistication. A master can create simple works which are more effective than the simple works of amateurs.

4) The level of craft practiced today is not of the same caliber as in years past - in some cases for totally understandable reasons.

5) The level of craft today is somewhat higher among film composers than videogame composers.

6) Of the two, it is probably more important that videogame composers level-up, because games are becoming increasingly more relevant and prevalent.

7) Absence of craft does not mean one can't love the music, any more than abundance of craft guarantees that.

8) The lowered level of craft we're surrounded with has a destructive effect on the art as a whole, because the lowered expectations it generates keep us from expecting and striving for a higher goal, which our predecessors enjoyed, and were enriched by.


I sometimes think the world can be divided into two types of people: reactionaries, and thinkers. By the way, Doublehex, if you see my grammar slipping, please feel free to correct it. I'm getting sloppy without meaning to; I can feel it.


_Mike

I did mean perfection, because isn't that what everybody should strive towards? Whatever it is, you sacrificed it to further yourself. No big, it's how the industry works.

Well, when you actually compose something worthwhile, let me know and I'll be glad to give it a listen.

If videogame music lends itself to mini-symphonic movements, then the need for training I've talked about becomes that much more important.

You say that as if game composers don't have training, or as if training is the most important factor in writing good music.


So let's dispel the notion that videogame music has to be judged by different standards; it's not true.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that video game music needs to be judged by different standards, so no dispelling need be done.


But we don't have ANY Rite of Springs anymore; that's the issue.

You have a unfortunate habit of trying to pass off subjective observation as irrefutable fact.


It's the preponderance, the prevalence of amateur work passing as professional that's causing an imbalance, and legitimately hurting everyone and I'm repeating myself.

You still have yet to provide an adequate or practical definition of what is "amateur" and what is "professional."

I did mean perfection, because isn't that what everybody should strive towards? Whatever it is, you sacrificed it to further yourself. No big, it's how the industry works.

Well, when you actually compose something worthwhile, let me know and I'll be glad to give it a listen

... I didn't sacrifice anything. What are you talking about? That a song might be simple doesn't imply it can't be academically sophisticated. One can argue that mastery shines more clearly in simple contexts than complex ones, in fact. And I knew that radio stations play songs with hooks - simple ones - so I made sure there were some on the albums. That's why the albums were in the top 3. I have no idea what perfection would even mean.

As for writing music that's worth listening to... I'm sure that's not for me to decide. I can only try to. :)


_Mike

You have a unfortunate habit of trying to pass off subjective observation as irrefutable fact.

You also seem to have the unfortunate habit of not bringing up any sort of "Rite of Spring" despite you giving us the impression that there is an example that exists. :)

That a song might be simple doesn't imply it can't be academically sophisticated.

This is the reason that Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is, by far, better than anything you will ever compose.

Seriously, though. Best of luck to you. I hope you manage to reach your full potential with all the Britney's and Nobuo's out there.

This is the reason that Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is by far better than anything you will ever compose.

Of course, I hope you're wrong, but as of now, can't argue against such a wonderful piece. And sadly, I won't know if I did it until I've been dead for 200 years.

In any case, I'm certainly glad not to be out there competing in the pop world with Britney. My breasts aren't big enough. I'll stick to the orchestral stuff, most likely.


_Mike

You mean your real breasts or your musical breasts?

Sorry, I'm done. I'm just being ridiculous at this point.

You also seem to have the unfortunate habit of not bringing up any sort of "Rite of Spring" despite you giving us the impression that there is an example that exists. :)

The impression I'm trying to give is that there's a lot of great music out there, regardless of whether or not it's epoch-making. "Why So Serious?" from "The Dark Knight" is one piece of music I would consider "great", but I wouldn't say it's "The Rite of Spring." For something to be "The Rite of Spring", it would have to be… well, "The Rite of Spring." We're not just talking about a quality composition, but a cultural phenomenon. It's very hard to achieve both, and sometimes it's difficult to measure the cultural side of things.

There's also the possibility there will never another "Rite of Spring", just as there will never be another "Birth of a Nation" or another "Mona Lisa." But you know what there is? Great music and great movies and great paintings. Sometimes you have to look hard, but they're there.

One thing I've noticed is that I seem to have a knack for hearing the actual 'sound' made by an ensemble. While recordings made by the LA or US orchestras are very technically excellent, they seem to lack... character? It just seems to be lacking something. I greatly prefer the sounds of the Brits, such as the LSO, LMO, RSNO, or the Philharmonia... but maybe I'm just culturally biased due to actually living in England.


EXACTLY. The UK orchestras (well, to be honest, any country's professional symphony, although I am certainly biased as a born and bred Londoner) have a certain presence that some of these studio-based ensembles miss.



Tango refers to studio-based ensembles, but Aoiichi_nii-san makes a blanket statement referring to US orchestras in general. I will agree that there are stale performances given by US ensembles, as well as can be expected from orchestras across the world at times, but US orchestras and studio ensembles are two very different things.

There are really terrific performances given by orchestras all around the world, and some very fine ones in the United States as well as in the United Kingdom and other countries. Chicago, St. Louis, Boston, New York Phil, San Francisco, LA, and various others have wonderful ensembles, and it is silly to disregard them.

On the topic of studio ensembles, I believe there is a much higher likelihood to encounter a stale, yet highly professional recording inside the US than outside. I truly believe that a large part of this tendency is due to the "industrial" style of the film music being slopped around in the states. All of these terrific players are not mechanized substitutes for sincere musicians (although some are probably a bit stiff), they are just being wasted with the bland music that is being churned out of hollywood.

1) Artists should endeavor to be true masters of their craft.


Very true and I sort of feel that some people...well a lot of people get complacent.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a very talented composer friend of mine. He has been writing for over 40 years. I understand his sentiment when he said "It may not be fun all the time now, but I dread the day I think my work is good. I say that because now I am constantly trying to improve myself and my product. If I liked most of what I create, I doubt I would have the same motivation to improve."

Just an interesting thought. Not saying that everyone should dislike their work, just that for him being less happy about his final product is what keeps him striving for and achieving higher and higher with each piece he writes.

I seemed to think the point of City of Prague Philharmonic was not that they are a poor orchestra for everything, just that they aren't good enough for the quality that is required by Mike's complex compositions. The same is said for the horn parts in Red Canvas. I heard in an interview that he had to get some extraordinarily skilled horn players to do it right and it makes sense because not every composer out there is writing the complex symphonies that would take their skills to the limit.

I really love the CoPP work on The Alamo and of course I don't think that the compositions are all that complex or difficult so it works for the recording. In some instances, as Tango said, I'd rather have CoPP than no orchestra at all.

I truly believe that a large part of this tendency is due to the "industrial" style of the film music being slopped around in the states. All of these terrific players are not mechanized substitutes for sincere musicians (although some are probably a bit stiff), they are just being wasted with the bland music that is being churned out of hollywood.

You are 100% correct. If you think I'm harsh on composers...whoo, boy. I'm friends with many of the a-call players here in town, and this is what I get to hear them vent about over drinks on Friday nights. I can absolutely say that the players have very little respect for no shortage of film composers in town. In fact, it would be safer to say they only respect a couple of them at all. You see, in the session, the abilities of the composer are painfully transparent, especially when there's some little problem in the parts, and the composer is ill-equipped to fix them, and needs to rely on the orchestrator to even tell him what notes should be in a part, let alone which parts should be playing. And if a director wants a cue change, it's even worse. There are TONS of instances of composers having defensive tantrums in front of the players during sessions because they look like idiots in front of everyone. I'm not talking about rank amateurs here, I'm talking about your usual suspects.

Actually, while I could fill a tome with stories, I won't name names about who's disrespected but I can tell you who's absolutely respected #1 with no real competitor: John Williams. No surprise there, but it's not just that he's the current ranking Master Craftsman, but his conducting is the best, too. That's another thing they absolutely rail against: Stick Wavers. On top of this, most cues are just done with a click now because the composers have such poor conducting skills.

And in terms of the impact the game/virtual composing world has had on this stuff, here's a typical downside by-product: One very well-known television composer pisses off everybody at his sessions because he can't handle recording the winds, brass, and strings at the same time. He has to do them on different days! Back on his computer at home, he can deal with the samples in layers I guess, but in a room with real humans, he gets totally overwhelmed, and then berates the players after the fact for not playing "together," when they didn't even record on the same day!

The studio musician scene is so fiercely competitive that these virtuosos just grin and bear it, but I heard the top trumpet player in town finally lose his cool and just lay this dude out at a break, because of how utterly non-musical the process was, and how it wasn't their fault the results sounded disjointed. These transcendently good musicians are, by and large, disappointed and frustrated with the crap they have to play all day, in the conditions they have to play in. But the money's great, and eventually, they get the Williams call, so it's worth it. Plus, most supplement their studio work with guest seats in major symphonies, to play the repertoire pieces.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this stuff. It's real.


_Mike

Not liking the boss doesn't make him an idiot. Just sayin'.

I'm sure members of orchestras in Beethoven's time thought he was an asshole.

...or maybe Berlioz. "Who the fuck is this guy, telling us what to do?"

Beethoven is believed to have suffered from bipolar disorder, on top of his gradually worsening deafness. He was also very irritable. Practicing with him must have been the worst job ever. ;-)

Precisely.

Kip Winger - Ghosts Suite No. 1
|Classical|Ballet|Strings|Emotional|
|MP3 VBR V-1|28MB|20 minutes|
I have for you here a STUNNING piece of music in three parts written by Kip Winger. Now I am not a fan of his but for those of you who don't know, Kip Winger is a prominent rock musician. According to his Wikipedia page he has been a fan of Classical music since age 16 and studied it in some depth.

This piece is somber and deeply reflective on the good times gone by. At the same time it resonates with sadness of the things you regret not doing. At VBR v-1 it sounds fantastic and is worth a listen at least once by everyone.
Download (http://rapidshare.com/files/391975238/KW-Ghosts.rar)
PSW: smile

Awesome. Thx, Sirusjr. I had no idea Winger composed anything other than hair metal. I'll give it a listen to see if he was able to extricate himself from amatuerish BS.

Annette Focks - Krabat
|Orchestral|Mysterious|Dark|
|MP3 VBR V-1|55.6MB|64 minutes|



Download (http://rs21.rapidshare.com/files/178391243/Krabat.-.Soundtrack.rar)

It's a pretty obscure score, but well worth a listen :)...

One very well-known television composer pisses off everybody at his sessions because he can't handle recording the winds, brass, and strings at the same time. He has to do them on different days! Back on his computer at home, he can deal with the samples in layers I guess, but in a room with real humans, he gets totally overwhelmed, and then berates the players after the fact for not playing "together," when they didn't even record on the same day!

This television composer isn't a thirty-year-old guy with an equally famous blog and strange first name is he? :-)

Beethoven is believed to have suffered from bipolar disorder, on top of his gradually worsening deafness. He was also very irritable. Practicing with him must have been the worst job ever. ;-)

I've always thought it a missed opportunity in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure that Beethoven didn't wander his way into the high school orchestra rehearsal and scare the crap out of the students.

You are 100% correct. If you think I'm harsh on composers...whoo, boy. I can absolutely say that the players have very little respect for no shortage of film composers in town. You see, in the session, the abilities of the composer are painfully transparent, especially when there's some little problem in the parts, and the composer is ill-equipped to fix them, and needs to rely on the orchestrator to even tell him what notes should be in a part, let alone which parts should be playing.

This is fascinating! And it's the answer to a question I've wanted answered since I first started listening to film music. Time and time again I see scoring session pictures / videos, in which an amateurish dunce (surrounded by the typical army of orchestrators) is having the latest crappy Blockbuster score recorded. He's stood there before 90 of the country's finest classical musicians. I have often wondered what's going through, say, Malcolm McNab's head as he performs Iron Man, PotC, etc.

I've wondered what happens when a musician pipes up with "Excuse me, about the third note in the 18th bar; shouldn't that be a D Flat?" and the 'composer' shuffles awkwardly in is shoes before he is rescued by Bruce Fowler / Steve Bartek / Conrad Pope who comes hot-footing it out of the control room to save the day. Or when the director says in the middle of a session "OK, there's 30 seconds of footage here which we didn't spot but now we need music." and throws a pencil and some manuscript paper over to the 'composer' hoping he can whip something up during the tea break, a-la Wizard Of Oz.

Now, we know. Mike - what do I have to do to get invited out drinking with your mates? ;)

I'm sure members of orchestras in Beethoven's time thought he was an asshole.

...or maybe Berlioz. "Who the fuck is this guy, telling us what to do?"

Like Bernard Herrmann, I'll bet they positively hated him as a man - but respected his craft to the ends of the earth. There's a very big difference.

I have often wondered what's going through, say, Malcolm McNab's head as he performs Iron Man, PotC, etc.

*cash register sound*

Not liking the boss doesn't make him an idiot. Just sayin'.

I dunno, it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the post that the players were idiots. It seemed to be more about how the players thought a lot of composers were idiots.

Speaking of bosses who are loathed, that reminds me of stories I've heard about James Cameron. If I recall, there was nearly a mutiny on the set of "Aliens", because the British crew didn't think that James knew what he was doing. When someone finds themselves in an unfamiliar creative environment, it can be difficult to adjust. I imagine this happens a lot for independent/low-budget filmmakers who suddenly find themselves wrestling an epic production.

Likewise, if someone is used to having their music flawlessly played back on a computer, it can be difficult for them to deal with flawed human performers. That doesn't mean the composer can't write good music; it simply means he isn't used to dealing with something as daunting and unwieldy as a huge orchestra. I think this may be a hurdle for composers who are self-taught or trained from a different musical background. (I wonder how Alan Silvestri fared during the scoring sessions of "Back to the Future"? If I recall, He wasn't a big orchestra guy before that project, and I don't think he was classically trained either.)

I've wondered what happens when a musician pipes up with "Excuse me, about the third note in the 18th bar; shouldn't that be a D Flat?" and the 'composer' shuffles awkwardly in is shoes before he is rescued by Bruce Fowler / Steve Bartek / Conrad Pope who comes hot-footing it out of the control room to save the day.

I'll tell you another little thing... my very first session, on the downbeat, this horrible cacophony of noise comes out of the orchestra. For an instant, I panicked - what could possibly have gone that wrong with my parts? Well, it turns out the copyist didn't realize I'd turned in a transposed score. See, apparently, none of the young composers can even read alto clef (or any clef?), they don't know the instrument transpositions, and can't do them in their head, so they have to have all their scores in concert pitch if they have any chance of understanding what's being played. What gets me is, when you study scores, they're always transposed... like for 150 years now; it gets so that if handed a concert score you'd be thrown off.

Oh, another thing... one sure-fire way to know how the musicians feel about your work: if they respect you, they'll take some of the parts home with them. That means they were challenging in the right way.

_Mike

That's madness! Even as a once musical-illiterate, amateur non-instrumentalist I know the clefs. I'm amazed that there hasn't been a revolt. How long can "The System" actually function in this way??

Like Bernard Herrmann, I'll bet they positively hated him as a man - but respected his craft to the ends of the earth. There's a very big difference.

I'm sure plenty of musicians thought Beethoven had no idea what he was doing, mostly during his later composition. It's like when you hear about work that nobody supposedly understood until years later, usually after the composers death.

Now having a tantrum because you can't coordinate your thoughts with others or have unreasonable demands on an orchestra is different.

How long can "The System" actually function in this way??

For a bit yet, I should think. You can't wait for it to change, though. Out of frustration more than anything else, I've actually done a few seminars for film students and young directors recently, educating them about the true power of music in film, and it's been both eye-opening, and encouraging. I've only done a couple of them, honing my program, but I'd say by and large the majority of attendees are not only receptive, but excited about the power of a great score. Many just haven't really heard good ones, don't understand how to truly use music to its fullest potential, and didn't know what they were missing. I use a lot of examples from films, a lot of before/after the music (the binary sunset shot from Star Wars with just desert wind sound effects is extremely painful,and a favorite), draw a lot of parallels between music and dialog writing, and get into mix balance as well. Stuff like that.


_Mike

An interesting point is, when I first began studying music and about 2 years into the course, there was still people who couldn't recognise keys with more than 3 sharps/flats, neither did they know what a triplet is, etc.

At the risk of sounding snobbish, it did seem a bit worrying.

Sounds fascinating! Binary Sunset is one of the single cues that affected me most as a kid and cemented the Force Theme as my favourite in Star Wars (even though it doesn't develop much). Its appearance in the finale *just* saves what would otherwise be one the most cringeworthy and school-playish scenes in all cinema.


I think this may be a hurdle for composers who are self-taught or trained from a different musical background. (I wonder how Alan Silvestri fared during the scoring sessions of "Back to the Future"? If I recall, He wasn't a big orchestra guy before that project, and I don't think he was classically trained either.)
I didn't know that! Silvestri obviously has innate musicality by the bucketload - which shows perhaps that training is only half of the equation. But where does that leave the Jablonskys and sub-Jablonskys of this world? ;) It goes without saying, there's a massive difference between Silvestri's flexible nuanced sound and the likes of RC.

Edit - Here's a peak at Mario Galaxy 2 in sesh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWbQUo3vFA

Love how perfectly impassive Miyamoto is. What a guy! :D

By the way, I'm so pleased to see that a mature atmosphere and good manners have been restored to the thread! Let's keep it that way shall we?

Time for a quickie:


RHODES
ALAN PARKER
The London Metropolitan Orchestra conducted by the composer



MP3-V0 + Scans
http://www.multiupload.com/0JP6M92M0N

Alan Parker, the lesser-spotted composer of Jaws 3D, Walking with Cavemen and the ITV News at Ten theme, provided this score for the BBC's 1996 dramatisation of the life of Cecil Rhodes. A straight-forward dramatic orchestral score with some nice themes, melancholic strings, brassy action and African chanting. There's also a touch of temp-track-itis, as Tango would say, but I'll leave you to spot that; none of it is too intrusive, and in the case of the theme for "The Great British Empire" it's actually spot on. ;)

The "Cecil Rhodes Suite" at the end is made up of many shorter cues woven together. On disc it's split into 33 tracks. They all meld into one-another, many under a minute in length; for seamless mp3-listening I've combined them. I think you'll agree, 40 minutes for one track is a little ungainly, so I've cut it into four roughly equal parts at the most natural breaks.

Enjoy!

@Lens of Truth

I would give alot to know what is on Miyamoto's mind during the recording session ;)

I am constantly amazed how quickly games have evolved in the 20 years they have been around.
And to see 8-bit sounds replaced by orchestral cues today is still a wonder to me.

I didn't know that! Silvestri obviously has innate musicality by the bucketload - which shows perhaps that training is only half of the equation. But where does that leave the Jablonskys and sub-Jablonskys of this world? ;) It goes without saying, there's a massive difference between Silvestri's flexible nuanced sound and the likes of RC.

Perusing the scans to Intrada's BttF release reveals that Silvestri ditched a formal education to go touring with a band. He learned everything he knew about film scoring from a book, and BttF was his second time working with an orchestra.

I think that does show that training, or an academic education, may be half of the equation in writing good music. There's certainly a part that can't be taught or broken down into theory; that is the part that makes someone relevant to a modern audience, I think.

On the subject of music being a powerful tool in movies:

I'm one of the nuts who thinks a movie doesn't need a score to be powerful. The works of Robert Altman from the 1970s are a fine example of that. Classics like "McGabe & Mrs. Miller", "The Long Goodbye", "Nashville", and "California Split" didn't have conventional film music. Quentin Tarantino, one of the best modern directors working today, hasn't yet had a single movie of his scored. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe he once said something to the effect of: If you need to music to "make" your scene, it's not a good scene. In other words, music should enhance what's there, not fill in any holes.

I think the power of the "Binary Sunset" scene in "Star Wars" can be owed to the striking imagery of the twin suns and its place in a story that smartly draws upon classic hero myth structure. The music is just another layer on top of that. Sometimes, all the good music in the world can't save a bad movie; just ask Roland Emmerich's "Godzilla" or "Stargate."

I'm a huge fan of Robert Altman as well, and I agree, there are a great many powerful things that can be done in film without the need for music. If I were to say what I think are some of the greatest films, and then scores, there wouldn't be much overlap between the two lists (Vertigo is a conspicuous exception).

The films you mention don't have big orchestral scores, but music does play a crucial role. McCabe and Mrs Miller has Leonard Cohen; Long Goodbye has its jazzy variations, spliced in an improvisatory manner and matching and playing off Altman's fluid multi-focus approach; and the searing irony of Nashville - exposing the 'naturalness' and 'innocence' of (American) popular culture - music, politics, capitalism all bedding down together.

I would also add "3 Women", which has minimal but telling use of a creeping hallucinatory score by Gerald Busby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzu2aD88GvY

And "Images" with a an absolute masterpiece of a score from non-other than John Williams!

Now, Tarantino is a different kettle of fish, and it might be best if I don't air my views. Suffice to say, music grabbed from here there and everywhere is very much at the forefront of his 'style'.

I tend to think of film like "visual-music" in a sense - what else is film in essence other than movement and composition? I'm sure I remember Altman speaking about the analogy between film itself and musical form and development.

For a 70s number I find very moving, completely absent of music (and, come to think of it much in the way of visual elaboration!), I'd probably go for Dog Day Afternoon.

Time for a quickie:


RHODES
ALAN PARKER
The London Metropolitan Orchestra conducted by the composer
Enjoy!

I love it when somebody posts something that a) I didn't know existed, and b) is absolutely superb. Thank you, my friend, for this! More comments tomorrow, but briefly... whatever happened to us? Where is this sort of music today? 1996 wasn't that long ago... but it's a world away from what passes for music in 99.999% of UK television now.

As for the temp track... Elgar is turning in his grave! That's almost unforgivable... almost. For some reason, I forgive it.

Oh, and how about that wonderful trumpet fluff at 0:41 in "Horse and Wagon" - crikey, that gave me a toothache!

Seriously though... what a wonderful work. Thanks again. :)

Lens:

Those are all good points and examples.

I'll add that Tarantino's use of music reflects his situation as a fiercely indepedent filmmaker who doesn't compromise. Not only does he use existing music to powerful effect, but it's also economic from a production standpoint. (No having to pay a composer to write music, no having to pay an orchestra to play it by a certain deadline. These can be obstacles to indie directors.)

@ aimelek

Unfortunately, track 26 appears to be broken. Would be grateful if you could re-up.
Thanks!

On the subject of music being a powerful tool in movies:

I'm one of the nuts who thinks a movie doesn't need a score to be powerful. The works of Robert Altman from the 1970s are a fine example of that. Classics like "McGabe & Mrs. Miller", "The Long Goodbye", "Nashville", and "California Split" didn't have conventional film music. Quentin Tarantino, one of the best modern directors working today, hasn't yet had a single movie of his scored. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe he once said something to the effect of: If you need to music to "make" your scene, it's not a good scene. In other words, music should enhance what's there, not fill in any holes.

I think the power of the "Binary Sunset" scene in "Star Wars" can be owed to the striking imagery of the twin suns and its place in a story that smartly draws upon classic hero myth structure. The music is just another layer on top of that. Sometimes, all the good music in the world can't save a bad movie; just ask Roland Emmerich's "Godzilla" or "Stargate."


Well in my opinion i think a bad movie doesn't get better with a score (and there is a lot of great music made for movies who doesn't really deserve), but a good movie can be elevated if the music is suitable.
For example, the asteroid scene on "Empire Strikes Back", and the dream sequence on "Spellbound". They are two scenes so different and so far away from each other on music, on cinematography, on film editing, even one was shot in colour and the other in B&W. Yet if you watch both films and hit the mute button on these two scenes, they just wouldn't work in the same way and be so powerful with the images accompanied by the music.
And there are many many other examples like this.

Maybe one of the reasons Tarantino doesn't have his movies scored with original music, is because he has already in mind what the music he want to use for a certain scene, or he just doesn't want any composer to step on his shoes and influence his creative process and change the final result of the scene he wants to be seen in the movie.
To be honest, i don't like how he treats the music on his films. It's nice as an homage and recognition of that music, but in the end there is nothing new or original where music is concerned. He use the music from many different sources (be it music made for other films or not), and just re-use it in the movies. But if this music wasn't created before, how and what he would find and use then?

The Binary Sunset is an interesting example.
The music used in the movie is one that convey a moment of reflexion of the hero (the french horn solo, not to be confused with Han Solo :D), who knows that the desert will not be a place for him and his wish to leave and be like his father (the moment with the full orchestra playing).
Now this scene could have a distinct significance.
If you had the chance to listen the alternate music that John Williams composed for this same scene, you'll note that the music in the alternate is darker, meaning that a new stage will begin in the hero's life, but not without danger and sacrifice, and so the very same sequence played with a distinct thematic material, can give sometimes opposite meanings.

Maybe one of the reasons Tarantino doesn't have his movies scored with original music, is because he has already in mind what the music he want to use for a certain scene, or he just doesn't want any composer to step on his shoes and influence his creative process and change the final result of the scene he wants to be seen in the movie.


Actually, I'm quite sure Tarantino has been quoted as saying he doesn't trust composers to work actively on a film of his, precisely because he feels that they'll probably ruin his creative vision.

Edit: Yep. “Music is so important. The idea of paying a guy and showing him your movie at the end. Who the f*** is this guy [who's] going to s**t on my movie?”

Stanley Kubrick:

"Exclude a pop music score from what I am about to say. However good our best film composers may be, they are not a Beethoven, a Mozart or a Brahms. Why use music which is less good when there is such a multitude of great orchestral music available from the past and from our own time? When you're editing a film, it's very helpful to be able to try out different pieces of music to see how they work with the scene. This is not at all an uncommon practice. Well, with a little more care and thought, these temporary music tracks can become the final score. When I had completed the editing of 2001: A Space Odyssey, I had laid in temporary music tracks for almost all of the music which was eventually used in the film. Then, in the normal way, I engaged the services of a distinguished film composer to write the score. Although he and I went over the picture very carefully, and he listened to these temporary tracks (Strauss, Ligeti, Khatchaturian) and agreed that they worked fine and would serve as a guide to the musical objectives of each sequence he, nevertheless, wrote and recorded a score which could not have been more alien to the music we had listened to, and much more serious than that, a score which, in my opinion, was completely inadequate for the film. With the premiere looming up, I had no time left even to think about another score being written, and had I not been able to use the music I had already selected for the temporary tracks I don't know what I would have done. The composer's agent phoned Robert O'Brien, the then head of MGM, to warn him that if I didn't use his client's score the film would not make its premiere date. But in that instance, as in all others, O'Brien trusted my judgment. He is a wonderful man, and one of the very few film bosses able to inspire genuine loyalty and affection from his film-makers."

Taken from this interview: http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/interview.bl.html

At least Tarantino respects the idea of the composer as a creative entity, rather than bitchslapping them and demanding "Give me some Titus." He's honest in making it very plain that he scores his films with the equivalent of a temp track.

He just doesn't respect them enough to employ them... (Although there was a rumor that Morricone was originally slated to score Inglourious Basterds.)

Spaceworlder: Fascinating! What a massive middle finger to Alex North that was!

On a somewhat related note, anyone have the 1996 version of the "2001" soundtrack?


Spaceworlder: Fascinating! What a massive middle finger to Alex North that was!

I don't know if it's a middle finger so much as: "Sorry, but this isn't working for me."

On a somewhat related note, anyone have the 1996 version of the "2001" soundtrack?

If you mean the Rhino release, then yes.

At least Tarantino respects the idea of the composer as a creative entity, rather than bitchslapping them and demanding "Give me some Titus." He's honest in making it very plain that he scores his films with the equivalent of a temp track.

He just doesn't respect them enough to employ them... (Although there was a rumor that Morricone was originally slated to score Inglourious Basterds.)

He was; he was even signed. Suddenly he was off the film - that's where the rumours kick in. It is said that Tarantino wanted the score in three seconds flat and Morricone, being the traditionalist, esteemed 81 year-old that he is, said quite reasonably that he's not as quick as he used to be, and in any case, it would take longer to write a proper score. At this point, Tarantino opened up his CD cabinet (filled mainly with Morricone and Herrmann) and tossed together his customary (admittedly effective) mash-up job... as he had originally planned to do...

How anybody can turn down the chance to work with Ennio Morricone I will never know. I would've given him his way on anything. (As I would with John Barry... he wants to be a miserable bastard? Fine. He wants a million pounds? Fine. He wants six months to write the score? Fine. He wants complete creative control over the music, instrumentation, and performance? FINE.)

It sounded to me like, "No offense Alex, but Strauss is a God, and you're just some idiot film composer and your score stinks."

I suppose it's always open to interpretation - though it's interesting that this account doesn't entirely tally up with Alex North's telling of the story. (Basically that Kubrick wasn't going to use the score from the get-go and was simplt using North as a decoy to keep the studio happy. Kubrick seemed to really enjoy North's score at the recording session, but in reality was just nodding happily whilst thinking "I'm going to use The Blue Danube so who cares!" Kubrick led North to believe his score would be used and never said otherwise; North attended the premiere of the film and found out what had happened there and then.)

Anyway, I digress... Apologies. :)


On a somewhat related note, anyone have the 1996 version of the "2001" soundtrack?

Are you referring to North's score, or to the film-version compilation album of the various classical pieces used?

How anybody can turn down the chance to work with Ennio Morricone I will never know. I would've given him his way on anything. (As I would with John Barry... he wants to be a miserable bastard? Fine. He wants a million pounds? Fine. He wants six months to write the score? Fine. He wants complete creative control over the music, instrumentation, and performance? FINE.)

In Quentin's case, he wanted to finish "Basterds" in time for Cannes.



I suppose it's always open to interpretation - though it's interesting that this account doesn't entirely tally up with Alex North's telling of the story.

That's how it is with these heated behind-the-scenes creative battles. Which ego is telling the correct story? Who knows?


Are you referring to North's score, or to the film-version compilation album of the various classical pieces used?

The compilation of the "temp track", but both would be nice.

In Quentin's case, he wanted to finish "Basterds" in time for Cannes.

It's always about deadlines and money and sales and committees nowadays...

It's always about deadlines and money and sales and committees nowadays...

Well, Quentin didn't really care about making money or making a release date or anything. He simply wanted to show the movie at Cannes because he likes the audience there.

Stanley Kubrick:

"However good our best film composers may be, they are not a Beethoven, a Mozart or a Brahms."

I know someone who begs to differ.


While I appreciate Kubrick's statements, I mostly prefer an original score, at least in regards to serious film. By serious, I mean films that you don't want anybody talking during (Tarantino being probably the only exception). Now if I'm watching American Pie, I really don't care what's playing as you could probably use a thousand different songs and still have the same feel to a scene.

I fundamentally disagree with Kubrick on this issue of supposed inferiority. Film scores are a vital part of our music culture. In the future, I've no doubt they will be regarded as such. Without this creative avenue, orchestral music would have been completely ghettoised into post-serialist academic obscurity.

I enjoy music from right across the board (including the most obtuse kinds of modernism) and I'd like to think I'm being fair when I say that Herrmann, Goldsmith, Rozsa, North and Williams are some of the finest and most distinguished composers of the latter part of the 20th century.

Yes, there's a lot of forgettable functional stuff in film music, particularly now, but the contemporary concert hall scene (the music establishment, if you will) is so far up its own backside it can't smell the shit anymore.

Kubrick's films all enjoy a certain detached ironic aura that makes the use of preexisting classical pieces work brilliantly. 2001 would be a very different film with the North score. Worse? I'm not so sure. It might even seem more visionary and strange in a certain way, but it would crucially lack the irony - the wry smile of the incongruous Blue Danube, the Nietzschean resonance of Zarathustra. For Kubrick, classical music seems to suggest fantasy, terror, elegance and brutality all at once. It's these overtones, the cultural baggage that this music has built-in, that give his films an extra dimension.

One Kubrick movie that I always think would have benefited from its own tailor made score is The Shining. The Bartok, Penderecki etc are used poorly for me. It's like he uses them as a substitute for conventional 'underscore', rather than in that ironic 'extra layer' way, where the music seems to be 'outside' of the film.

The other argument against using classical, of course, is that it almost inevitably involves butchering and cutting it up. Artworks should be respected for the individual entities that they are. How would Kubrick feel, I wonder, about footage from 2001 being spliced up and used in an advert for grippy trainers or TV dinners?

Just think what it would be like if, as Kubrick seems to be suggesting, the practice of original composition for film was mostly abandoned - classical music would become nothing more than fodder for lazy directors/producers, fodder for Hollywood. The most recent movie I saw to attempt a 30 second rape of a masterpiece was Watchmen, and it reaffirmed in my mind the perversity of the approach. Kubrick was a genius as great and unique as we've seen in mainstream Hollywood; his immobility on temp scores serves his films well (on the whole). Who else could pull it off?? The other thing Kubrick did, which no one else would, is allow the music to flood the whole soundtrack and to sound-out in long-take scenes. The presence and autonomy of classical music doesn't lend itself to the stealthy, 'realistic' priorities of most cinema. The edits in modern movies make it impossible.

While we are all on the topic of Kubric, North, and 2001, there are a few facts that we must take into consideration. First, there is indeed the impression that Kubrick screwed over North, taking into consideration how North found out about the direction 2001 was going. Secondly, 2001 was a much better film because of it.

The use of the two Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra and The Blue Danube (two separate composers, FYI) is simply genius. The moment the bone is thrown, and those drums beat and the horns blast that famous melody, you are caught in a wondrous trap. The way Kubrick used the Blue Danube to associate that with the way a shuttle moves through space is nothing short of wondrous.

And who can ever forget the moment when Ligeti's Requiem was first used when we encounter the monolith, off screen?

Say what you will about Kubrick and his treatment of North, but he did make the right choice in the musical direction of the film (amongst other things). It would of had been a great film with North's score. Luckily for us, it is now an unforgettable masterpiece.

^^This :)

Besides, it's all gain for us. North's music is a brilliant work in its own right - not a mere footnote!

^^This :)

Besides, it's all gain for us. North's music is a brilliant work in its own right - not a mere footnote!

Hey, let the English/Film student lecture you on film history. He surely has some chops!

"But you were a Film major for only 6 months!"

Silence naysayers. <.<

THE MOST FAMOUS TEMP TRACK OF ALL TIME!!!

RICHARD STRAUSS, GYORGY LIGETI, ET AL.
2001: A Space Odyssey
Original Motion Picture Soundtrack

LAME 3.98 -v0 MP3|138 MB



THE MUSIC AS IT APPEARS IN THE FILM
1. Overture: Atmospheres (2:49)
2. Main Title: Also Sprach Zarathustra (Thus Spake Zarathustra) (1:41)
3. Requiem for Soprano, Mezzo Soprano, Two Mixed Choirs & Orchestra (6:33)
4. The Blue Danube (Excerpt) (5:42)
5. Lux Aeterna (2:52)
6. Gayane Ballet Suite (Adagio) (5:15)
7. Jupiter And Beyond (15:13)
*Requiem for Soprano, Mezzo Soprano, Two Mixed Choirs & Orchestra
*Atmospheres
*Adventures (Altered For Film)
8. Also Sprach Zarathustra (Thus Spake Zarathustra) (1:41)
9. The Blue Danube (Reprise) (8:17)

SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL
10. Also Sprach Zarathustra (Thus Spake Zarathustra) (MGM Album Version) (1:39)
11. Lux Aeterna (5:59)
12. Adventures (Unaltered) (10:51)
13. HAL 900 (Dialogue Montage) (9:41) - I love HAL, so I kept it in

Pertinent to our discussion and as requested, the collection of music Kubrick used to underscore perhaps the quintessential science-fiction epic. I have little to add specific to this score, although I would like to address the following point:


2001 would be a very different film with the North score. Worse? I'm not so sure. It might even seem more visionary and strange in a certain way, but it would crucially lack the irony - the wry smile of the incongruous Blue Danube, the Nietzschean resonance of Zarathustra. For Kubrick, classical music seems to suggest fantasy, terror, elegance and brutality all at once. It's these overtones, the cultural baggage that this music has built-in, that give his films an extra dimension.

I can't state how much I agree with this sentiment. I'm more familiar with Kubrick's later output than his earlier works, but this irony is at the heart of all his films of this period; it seems to have been a crucial aspect of his world view. ["There's no fighting in the War Room!" :)] From what little I've heard of North's score, it seemed bombastic and celebratory, hardly reflecting the film's ambivalence as to whether or not we are truly ready to take that next evolutionary step beyond the infinite. It may be a glorious piece of music, but Kubrick absolutely made the correct decision for his film; the film loses so much of its thematic resonance without this quality.

ALL LINKS WORKING!
Part 1 (http://uploadmirrors.com/download/IQ85GUSW/VA-2001.zip.001)
Part 2 (http://uploadmirrors.com/download/1ERMEJ7G/VA-2001.zip.002)

THE MOST FAMOUS TEMP TRACK OF ALL TIME!!!

RICHARD STRAUSS, GYORGY LIGETI, ET AL.
2001: A Space Odyssey
Original Motion Picture Soundtrack

LAME 3.98 -v0 MP3|138 MB


Tremendous. Thanks for fulfilling the request.

1. Mike Verta's misunderstanding of popular culture as a destructive force is laughable and should be put down before it is allowed to run rampant.

2. It's a common senseological fact that heart, soul and raw talent are equally, probably more, important that any amount of training in the world. Of course it goes without saying that any professional should seek to hone their craft.

3. I would like for Maestro Verta to provide specific examples of said game music composition that is sub par to film composition. Also, examples of the scores, film or otherwise, that he believes to be exemplary.

1. Mike Verta's misunderstanding of popular culture as a destructive force is laughable and should be put down before it is allowed to run rampant.

2. It's a common senseological fact that heart, soul and raw talent are equally, probably more, important that any amount of training in the world. Of course it goes without saying that any professional should seek to hone their craft.

3. I would like for Maestro Verta to provide specific examples of said game music composition that is sub par to film composition. Also, examples of the scores, film or otherwise, that he believes to be exemplary.

Are you serious? Please - enough of this lunacy in our otherwise mostly coherent thread... Seriouisly - every time it feels as though this posturing has finished, somebody turns up and begins it again. I'm sure I speak for the majority of posters when I say it's getting beyond tiresome.

1. Mike Verta's misunderstanding of popular culture as a destructive force is laughable and should be put down before it is allowed to run rampant.

2. It's a common senseological fact that heart, soul and raw talent are equally, probably more, important that any amount of training in the world. Of course it goes without saying that any professional should seek to hone their craft.

3. I would like for Maestro Verta to provide specific examples of said game music composition that is sub par to film composition. Also, examples of the scores, film or otherwise, that he believes to be exemplary.

Good God, and just when I actually had faith in the intelligence of this community. I am beginning to think that either people are just far too sensitive for their own good, or they prefer to be moronic rather than intelligible to save brain cells.

Re-read Verta's posts, so you can actually understand what he is saying, because he is not saying any of those things that you think he is saying. Like any intelligent commentary, there are layers. Morons will see one thing, while people who prefer to exercise their intelligence will see what Verta is really cutting at.

Wait, I thought Mithrandir was one of the guys who disagreed with me? I can't keep up with this thread!

EDIT:

Thanks for summing up my main points, though. ;-)

Wait, I thought Mithrandir was one of the guys who disagreed with me? I can't keep up with this thread!

Neither can I! We go from this lengthy debate on the state of the art in the industries to a discussion regarding 2001's music, and now we jump back to the facts spoken by Verta. This thread is bouncing back and forth like a rubber ball being thrown around with no abandon by a four year old. :/

Ok, I apologize for defending something that should've never been brought up in this thread to begin with. Any further comments/questions for Verthoven will be done through PM...or not at all.

It wouldn't be so much an issue if the discussion is actually intelligent rather than sarcastic and reactionary.

Ok, I apologize for defending something that should've never been brought up in this thread to begin with. Any further comments/questions for Verthoven will be done through PM...or not at all.

It's certainly not for you to decide what belongs in this thread and what doesn't. Intelligent, respectful debate certainly belongs. We'll go on debating intelligently and respectfully, as we have been happily doing for two years now.

:)

It's certainly not for you to decide what belongs in this thread and what doesn't.

Yeah, but it's ever so fun to pretend. I do sincerely apologize for derailing this thread.

Its time for everyone to chill out and have some fun.
And I have the perfect thing for that.



Charlie Chaplin & Carl Davis
Charlie Chaplin: The Essential Film Music Collection


Sample (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/24/2487612//1-04 The Gold Rush.mp3)

1. The Reel Chaplin: A Symphonic Adventure (Part 1)
2. The Kid: Suite
3. Pay Day
4. The Gold Rush
5. The Circus
6. City Lights
7. Modern Times
8. The Great Dictator
9. Monsieur Verdoux: Paris Boulevard
10. Monsieur Verdoux: Bitter Tango
11. A King In New York: Mandolin Serenade
12. A King In New York: Weeping Willow
13. A Countess From Hong Kong
14. The Reel Chaplin: A Symphonic Adventure (Part 2)

1. The Floorwalker
2. The Fireman
3. The Vagabond
4. One A.M.
5. The Count
6. The Pawnshop
7. Behind the Screen
8. The Rink
9. Easy Street
10. The Cure
11. The Immigrant
12. The Adventurer

http://www.multiupload.com/NFGXF8UU88

These are not the scores in the original form. They have been rearranged/reworked into nice suites by Carl Davis. Just pure all around good fun.

Shadow: THANKS! That's amazing... And a fine example of what the City of Prague Philharmonic can do when they set their mind to it. Not many people know that Chaplin (a splendid Englishman) was a talented composer as well as a great comic. With Carl Davis involved, well, you just can't beat it. A great album, and a fine post. Thank you again.

And now, continuing on with the theme of "Let's Get The Thread Back On Track Gentlemen!" I present...




[GREAT POST ALERT] ;)

KAN SAWADA
Doraemon Sound Track History 2
(AKA, Scores from the five "New Doraemon" theatrical features, 2006-2010.)
Studio Orchestra

SAMPLE: (9 Minute Suite of some of the best bits)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76672697762061d3/



My rip - LAME 3.98.4 -V0 - Scans included, and track titles in Romaji

Version in 2 Parts (all links interchangeable)

Part 1: http://www.mirrorcreator.com/files/IR69WDDS/KS-DSH2.part1.rar_links
Part 2: http://www.mirrorcreator.com/files/0G0BEHSY/KS-DSH2.part2.rar_links

Part 1 (Mirror): http://www.massmirror.com/51efdaf32ade0039216b827452ccfe0f.html
Part 2 (Mirror): http://www.massmirror.com/5787205918211bb8c75676baa234fe4d.html

Version in 3 Parts

http://uploadmirrors.com/download/TI6QBLAQ/KS-DSH2.part1.rar
http://uploadmirrors.com/download/1TNPHGCO/KS-DSH2.part2.rar
http://uploadmirrors.com/download/RD9MM8SK/KS-DSH2.part3.rar

(Note - Rip is the same in all versions; the Uploadmirrors version is in three parts due to 100mb filesize limit, which the others exceed.)

Here's one of those scenarios where you learn about a show - what it's about, what the tone is, who it's aimed at, etc - and you form an assumption about what sort of score it's likely to get. Then, you actually listen to the score, and you find that (not for the first, or indeed the last time) the Japanese should never be underestimated.

Doraemon, for those of you who don't know (I can't imagine that will be many) is a blue robotic cat, sent back in time to be a companion to Nobita Nobi - a young boy for whom nothing seems to go right. The original manga ran from 1969 to 1996 (where it finished because its last surviving creator passed away). It spawned an unpopular TV series in 1973, which is now lost to the mists of time. In 1979, TV Asahi tried again and this time they had a winner - the series ran continuously until 2005 and clocked up nearly 1,800 episodes.

With the voice cast and staff getting on a bit, a new cast was appointed, and a new Doraemon series started a month later, which runs to this day.

Concurrently with the television anime, Doraemon also featured in dozens of theatrical feature films - one almost annually since 1979.

The 1979 series until 2005 was scored by Shunsuke Kikuchi, of Dragonball fame. With the cast and crew refresh in 2005, Kikuchi (now 79 years old) retired and scoring duties (on both TV anime and theatrical films) were taken on by the considerably less famous Kan Sawada, who is 42!

Now, let's get down to business. This is a 2-disc set, and both discs are packed to the gills. We get approximately 27 minutes each from the various scores, for a total of 135 minutes of (mostly) entirely orchestral, wonderfully old-fashioned, well crafted, thematic music. As we progress through the years, the orchestra gets progressively bigger; 2006's Nobita's Dinosaur is performed by a very average size, television-grade orchestra, but by 2009 we're in fully-fledged symphony territory. All have their charms. Personally I'm very fond of scores that feature over-stretched, under-rehearsed, crappy sounding orchestras, absolutely BELTING out music that's considerably larger than the ensemble.

There's something very honest about it; it's very simple to make a big orchestra sound small - Hollywood does it all the time, but there's great musicianship involved in taking 45 people and, through larger-than-life music and incredibly crafty orchestrations, making them sound twice their size. (Note; in the early films, the orchestra may be smaller, but the quality is entirely consistent.)

Probably my favourite of the scores is for 2009's Spaceblazer movie. It's a great big symphonic sci-fi score, just like they used to make in the West. It doesn't pander to the genre, and it takes itself seriously the way most contemporary kids movie scores just don't. The film is about a lot of things; friendship, courage, loss, teamwork, betrayal, family, loneliness, as well as the usual spaceships, explosions, and what have you. The score responds with, in addition to glorious brassy action cues, a melange of melodies. Even during the aforementioned breathless brassy action setpieces, the orchestra remains playful (one word: woodwinds) and there's always a melody to hang on to.

There's always the temptation to allow an action cue to descend into ostinato and chord progressions. Sawada's score is never lazy even during moments where you'd be forgiven for taking a shortcut. To round it all off, the film's dominant theme - heard in full in a absolutely beautiful light pop arrangement (yes, really - trust your old friend Tango) for orchestra, percussion, children's choir in Kimi ga Warau Sekai (a cue that underscores a scene of pure innocence and joy in the film; you have to see it) and sprinkled through the score in various shapes and forms. It appears in the finale cue (a splendid three and a half minute re-cap of all the major themes) in a warm arrangement for solo trumpet and strings (later, the whole orchestra) and ultimately, it rounds off the score with something else missing from so many contemporary scores... The lost art of the proper big orchestral finish.

Note that there's a little temp-track-itus - most notably in 2007's "Nobita's New Great Adventure Into The Underworld" which lifts from James Horner's big 80s fantasy scores.

All in all, this is the sort of music that makes a guy like me sit there grinning from ear to ear, making stupid "hee hee!!!" noises.

There's much to talk about - I'd fill up the whole thread if I said everything I liked... I'll refrain, much to the collective joy of everybody here... Just give it a listen. It's really, really great stuff.

Enjoy :)
TT

Shadow: THANKS! That's amazing... And a fine example of what the City of Prague Philharmonic can do when they set their mind to it. Not many people know that Chaplin (a splendid Englishman) was a talented composer as well as a great comic. With Carl Davis involved, well, you just can't beat it. A great album, and a fine post. Thank you again.

I'm ashamed to say that I didn't know for a long time, but once I found out I fell in love with his incredibly charming melodies. Chaplin is great fun to listen to (and Carl Davis is the icing on the cake).



[GREAT POST ALERT] ;)


Slightly cheeky of you, good sir ;)
It doesn't make it any less true though. What a wonderful and obscure post

I'm ashamed to say that I didn't know for a long time, but once I found out I fell in love with his incredibly charming melodies. Chaplin is great fun to listen to (and Carl Davis is the icing on the cake).



Slightly cheeky of you, good sir ;)
It doesn't make it any less true though. What a wonderful and obscure post

I only did it because I've posted stuff in the past and people have looked at it and thought "That's gonna be shit" and not listened. It wasn't so much intended to blow my own trumpet, but to say "Folks, if you're looking at this and you're going to pass it up... DON'T! Download now and don't look back." ;)

You know, I think I have a Chaplin 78 somewhere in my record case. I'll fish it out. That'd be fun to play again.

people have looked at it and thought "That's gonna be shit" and not listened. It wasn't so much intended to blow my own trumpet, but to say "Folks, if you're looking at this and you're going to pass it up... DON'T! Download now and don't look back." ;)

I know what you mean. I wouldn't have given it a second glance if it wasn't posted by you.

I know what you mean. I wouldn't have given it a second glance if it wasn't posted by you.

I take that as a great compliment - thank you, sir.

I purchased the Doraemon based on a couple of minutes of sound samples at CD Japan. It was a risk; a very expensive risk too. (�25 + �10 postage + �30 customs - OW!) Sometimes it pays off - and I really really want people to be able to share in my good fortune.

I think there's a lot of that in this thread... I've found some great stuff via trusting the good people here (that includes you on more than one occasion) - to think, only recently I nearly passed up Intelligent Qube, and Viva Pinata... but in the end downloaded both and loved them.

THAT'S what this thread is all about... :)

Thanks tango and shadowonthesun for the posts. I agree that I would have ignored this Doraemon if it wasn't posted by Tango and in this thread. The cover just screams cheesy cutsey. Can't wait to listen to these ;)

Thanks tango and shadowonthesun for the posts. I agree that I would have ignored this Doraemon if it wasn't posted by Tango and in this thread. The cover just screams cheesy cutsey. Can't wait to listen to these ;)

Wait til you look at the booklet scans. ;)

I'm a sucker for the cute stuff, granted. And I really really like album covers that feature characters from the show in an orchestra or otherwise playing instruments. It's fun. On the front of the main booklet, Doraemon is conducting whilst playing the piano with his feet. Absolute class.

Thanky you all very much for the beautiful scores posted recently.

Charlie Chaplin is a pure joy listening to and I really respect the man himself.
His speech from the Great Dictator is in my opinion the most meaningful speech in movie history and it is still relevant today.

Listening to Doraemon right now and I'm really satisfied. Very nice, rather light-hearted (but with some darker parts), awesomely orchestrated music. And those little choral parts are just cute (well, at least one I heard till now, hope there will be more;)). Performance itself also is top notch. Only problem is that tracks are very short. But despite it, it's fantastic thing. Thanks Tango. Blue robotic cat FTW!:D

Shostakovich Edition
MP3 VBR V0|Total size 2.8GB|27 Discs|

View Thread (Thread 76498)

Charlie Chaplin & Carl Davis
Charlie Chaplin: The Essential Film Music Collection


KAN SAWADA
Doraemon Sound Track History 2
A brief but MASSIVE THANK YOU!! You guys never cease to amaze me.

The Chaplin music I know only in snippets. I believe the mk2 dvds have older recordings of the scores, not Davis' plush arrangements. His tasteful, impeccable handling of the orchestra is so in keeping with the period sensibility, yet such a valuable enhancement. He's a a real hero to me on this front. His score for Gance's Napoleon (STILL in distribution rights Hell thanks to the megalomania of Ford Coppola!) is absolutely sublime and IMO trounces Honegger's original.

To my knowledge the only silent releases available to feature his work are Flesh and the Devil and the SE of Ben-Hur - both essential if you enjoy films of this vintage and great music ;)

But where oh where is Broken Blossoms? Intolerance, Thief of Bagdad, Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? With any luck some thoughtful soul will see to it on Blu.

Something tells me I'll be returning to both of these often! More comments later :)

Listening to Doraemon right now and I'm really satisfied. Very nice, rather light-hearted (but with some darker parts), awesomely orchestrated music. And those little choral parts are just cute (well, at least one I heard till now, hope there will be more;)). Performance itself also is top notch. Only problem is that tracks are very short. But despite it, it's fantastic thing. Thanks Tango. Blue robotic cat FTW!:D

To be honest, when I first started listening, the short-ish tracks bothered me. Usually there's nothing that ruins my day like a CD with 45 tracks. By the end, it didn't bug me at all. Sawada is packing so much into these cues that even a 60 second piece doesn't leave you wanting. It's a grand feat to achieve that - Herrmann would have approved I'm sure.

And, getting slightly off topic, it's *very* worthwhile hunting down these Doraemon movies as well. Yes, they're aimed at kiddies principally, but one of the things I love about Japanese film/TV is that even in kids shows, there's always something to appeal to everyone. Spaceblazer, for instance - kids will see bright colours, wacky animals, explosions, super heroes, larger than life bad guys, etc, etc. Adults will see a tender, extremely sensitively told human drama. And of course, every grown-up still has a kid inside them somewhere and I won't deny that I love the kiddy elements of the films as well.

The previously mentioned scene that is scored by Kimi ga Warau Sekai comes to mind. Five kids and Doraemon play together in a beautiful forest; they ride tiny elephants alongside a river, they crash through a vast field of flowers. It serves no purpose; it's just a beautiful moment. It has a lot in common with Miyazaki's flights of fancy - where the story grinds to a complete halt and we get to just sit back and look at the world going by. For me, that scene is the epitomy of childhood - and watching it reminds me of the kind of person I was when I was Nobita's age. Saving the world can wait, because right now we're going to play.

It's a very uniquely Japanese thing to do; instead of shoving stuff down your throat, they show you absolute simplicity and you figure it out on your own.

"This planet is wonderful... it's just like a dream. Let's enjoy playing until the end!"

The Doraemon set is fantastic! Hard to know where to begin with such wonderful music. Thanks again TT!!

I'll definitely follow your recommendation on the movies :)

Edit - I had a little trouble with the two-part links. Might just be my crap connection. Downloading the suite now.

To be honest, when I first started listening, the short-ish tracks bothered me. Usually there's nothing that ruins my day like a CD with 45 tracks. By the end, it didn't bug me at all. Sawada is packing so much into these cues that even a 60 second piece doesn't leave you wanting. It's a grand feat to achieve that - Herrmann would have approved I'm sure.

True. Those tracks are soooo rich, almost all of them have something awesome to "say", but still would like 'em to be longer;). And one more thing - maybe it's just me, but imo it's one of the coolest things posted here since some time. Really love it, so thanks again Tango:D.

And I also had a problem with d-load. But somehow I managed to make it work hehe.

Ah, it's so good to feel the delightful atmosphere of this thread again. Peace, respect, intelligence and friendship restored... Excellent :)

Thanks a lot for the recently posted albums, mates - downloading now. I have one or two more coming soon, not new, but totally belonging to this thread. One Sahashi which hasn't been posted yet (yes, such thing exists!), and another album which associates the name of Amano with the one of Oshima - great stuff, as you can imagine.

Ah, it's so good to feel the delightful atmosphere of this thread again. Peace, respect, intelligence and friendship restored... Excellent :)

Thanks a lot for the recently posted albums, mates - downloading now. I have one or two more coming soon, not new, but totally belonging to this thread. One Sahashi which hasn't been posted yet (yes, such thing exists!), and another album which associates the name of Amano with the one of Oshima - great stuff, as you can imagine.

I am a sad git, but I now know what album you're posting from the Amano / Oshima connection. A fantastic work. May I tell the thread what I think is coming or shall I keep quiet for now? :)

Oh, please do. (just in case it's NOT the same, in which case we both have an album to discover ;))

Oh, please do. (just in case it's NOT the same, in which case we both have an album to discover ;))

Gradius In Classic? :-D

Bingo!

I'll post this one 1st then (in a few hours).

Btw, I listened to the Doreamon sample: really good stuff. Looking forward to try the full album. Thanks!

Well I wanted to bring to this thread's attention an announcement from today that I couldn't resist. Kritzerland is releasing a swashbuckling Albert Glasser release of The Boy and the Pirates! From posts on FSM, I gathered that its about 25 minutes long and also includes a 6minute suite from Attack of the Puppet People.

Website (http://www.kritzerland.com/pirates.htm)
For this release, we used 1/4-inch stereo tapes, which were in very good condition. We�ve tried to put this in as close to film order as possible � as frequently happens, some of the music was truncated, some repeated, and some not used. It�s a very short score, so to add a little bit more playing time to the CD we�re pleased to present a little mini-suite from Mr. BIG�s classic, Attack of the Puppet People. Sadly, all the tapes we�ve heard on this score have horrible distortion � we�re still on the prowl for better tapes, but until they turn up, we�ve salvaged the few cues that didn�t have extreme distortion and edited them together into a nice little musical appetizer.

So, join us on the high seas for adventure and fun with Pirates and Puppet People!

Great, big fan of pirate music - btw, it's a crime not to post Cutthroat Island in this thread, just saying.

Concerning Gradius, I have a more ambitious project now: In fact I came across several orchestral albums from this franchise, and I shall post them here as well. So, it'll take a little longer to prepare these posts, but the result is worthwhile!

Coming soon :)

Great, big fan of pirate music - btw, it's a crime not to post Cutthroat Island in this thread, just saying.

Concerning Gradius, I have a more ambitious project now: In fact I came across several orchestral albums from this franchise, and I shall post them here as well. So, it'll take a little longer to prepare these posts, but the result is worthwhile!

Coming soon :)

*ears prick up*

For those that are interested, an edited translation from the Iwata Asks article on Nintendo's site concerning the score for Galaxy 2:





Koji Kondo (above right) is, of course, Nintendo's most well known composer and the creator of the classic Super Mario Bros theme music. Similar to his role with the first Galaxy, he had Mahito Yokota (center) head-up sound direction while he worked on a number of songs himself. Kondo also had a supervisor's role, making sure all the music fit with the Mario universe.

Ryo Nagamatsu (left) is new to the Galaxy series with part 2. He's a relative newcomer to Nintendo as well, having joined the company only four years ago. His most notable soundtracks being Mario Kart and New Super Mario Bros Wii.

You'll recall that Miyamoto revealed during the first interview that the original plan with Galaxy 2 was to build on top of worlds form the original game. However, the staff ended up creating around 95% new areas of play.

It looks like the game's sound component followed a similar path. There was talk initially of, in-keeping with the Mario Galaxy 1.5 theme, not significantly altering the music. In the end they chose to make new music that matched the new elements of the game - most notably the bright blue sky that you can see on the cover. There was also the addition of Yoshi; they had to write music that matched the character.

The end result, as some who've managed to get their hands on the game will know, is a mix of completely new music along with arrangements of Galaxy songs and arrangements of Mario series music.

The orchestra for Galaxy 2 consisted of some 60 members - up by about 10 from the 50 of the original. The orchestra was conducted by Taizou Takemoto, a famous classical conductor, who also conducted the August 2002 Smash Bros Concert in Tokyo. Yokota noted that Takemoto is a true game fan, and on his visits to Nintendo was able to keep-up with all the game jargon in talks with the developers!

In addition to the orchestral pieces, Galaxy 2 includes some big band numbers (trumpets, trombone, sax, drums etc). Recording these required that they add around 10 big band artists to the 60 person orchestra.

'Yoshi Star' was composed by Kondo. The reason Yokota asked Kondo to write this particular song is because he was worried that if he'd done it himself, it would have ended up being an extension of the Mario Galaxy music. He wanted something of a different taste. Additionally, he feels that one of Kondo's specialties is making Yoshi music!

Regarding his work on the game in general, Kondo explained that, compared to his work on the original, he'd wanted to contribute more to the sequel. For Galaxy 2, he ended up creating five songs. These included the Yoshi Star Galaxy theme, the theme for Mario's starship and Koopa Jr.'s Fiery Flotilla.

Nagamatsu recalled an instance where Kondo did not approve his work. Nagamatsu had written a song for the world map, a new feature that Galaxy 2 inherits from New Super Mario Bros Wii. Hearing this song, Kondo said that it wouldn't work because the world map needs to have music that, rather than draw attention to itself, makes the player want to hurry up and play the next stage. One of the goals for the world map music, explained Yokota, is for players to cool down when they return to the Mario star ship after having worked up a sweat while playing through the levels.

The sound team also discussed the game's soundtrack, which will be appearing at Club Nintendo as a bonus item. The soundtrack features 70 tracks split across 2 discs.






*ears prick up*
Damn Tango, you've got good ears mate! The ensemble is bigger, but only by 10!! :D

Looking forward to that SMG2 release…and I'll second that request for "Cutthroat Island"! I need to Netflix that movie one of these weeks.

I can put up Cutthroat if someone isn't already on it

For those that are interested, an edited translation from the Iwata Asks article on Nintendo's site concerning the score for Galaxy 2:

Damn Tango, you've got good ears mate! The ensemble is bigger, but only by 10!! :D

Haha! That was a hunch, but a good one I'm glad to see!

A 60 piece orchestra really is pushing the limits of Sound Inn Studio A (http://www.sound-inn.com/studio/ast.html) - it's a tiny studio. It has a very, very unique sound, too; claustrophobic and extremely unkind to brass. Most of Sahashi's television scores were recorded in there. The YouTube video of the SMG2 recording sessions clearly show a very uncomfortable looking orchestra. It must be murder in there. The acoustic is terrible.

Fascinating article - thanks! :D

arthierr was talking about how no one had uploaded this yet, so I took care of it


John Debney
Cutthroat Island


Sample (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/6/24/2487612//Its Only Gold.mp3)
Disc 1
http://www.multiupload.com/ITEA3I94MZ
Disc 2
http://www.multiupload.com/8904DVH18D

A great album. Beautiful music by John Debney. People who havn't heard Cutthroat Island yet (which shouldnt be to many really) should really try this one.

Ah, a great upload. Thanks. Pity Debney hasn't been on quite so top form in the recent years...

arthierr was talking about how no one had uploaded this yet, so I took care of it


John Debney
Cutthroat Island


I am one of those that has never heard this!! Thank you!

Cutthroat Island is one of the best things to happen to film music in a long time. Anyone who hasn't heard it yet is in for a big treat. :)

Here's one that I recently rediscovered in my collection and didn't find around here. It's very nice though, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to share:


Gods and Generals
Sweeping/Orchestral/Irish
MP3@224KB/s



DOWNLOAD (http://anonym.to/?http://www.multiupload.com/QGF9G2I35B)

This is not my upload so the tagging is a bit off. Here's the correct artist attributions:

1. Going Home (4:56) - performed by Mary Fahl
2. Gods and Generals (3:42) - John Frizzell
3. You Must Not Worry for Us (2:09) - John Frizzell
4. Loved I Not Honor More (3:13) - John Frizzell
5. Lexington is My Home (1:23) - John Frizzell
6. The School of the Soldier (3:58) - John Frizzell
7. Go to their Graves Like Beds (2:24) - Randy Edelman
8. My Heart Shall Not Fear (1:46) - Randy Edelman
9. These Brave Irishmen (2:51) - John Frizzell
10. To the Stone Wall (3:41) - John Frizzell
11. You'll Thank Me in the Morning (3:20) - John Frizzell
12. The First Crop of Corn (3:26) - John Frizzell
13. My Home is Virginia (4:24) - Randy Edelman
14. No Photographs (2:53) - John Frizzell & Randy Edelman
15. VMI Will Be Heard from Today (2:42) - John Frizzell
16. Too Much Sugar (1:56) - John Frizzell
17. Let Us Cross the River (2:48) - John Frizzell
18. The Soldier's Return (2:02) - John Frizzell
19. Cross the Green Mountain (8:14) - performed by Bob Dylan

Enjoy!

Uh...where is the link Mathazzar? :P

Sorry, my bad, it's up there now! xD

I always liked the theme 'Going Home' from Gods and Generals.

Ah, a great upload. Thanks. Pity Debney hasn't been on quite so top form in the recent years...

Poor sod really hasn't had another opportunity quite like this one. This really was the mainstream swansong of the traditional pirate movie score.

Debney still has the chops... unfortunately they're not really called up too often. Either he's scoring crappy light comedies, or he's being barged into temp-track plagiarism... or he gets a movie like Iron Man 2, and presumably because of studio / director / somebody interference ends up entirely squandering the chance.

Lair is probably the nearest to Cutthroat Island we've seen from Debney recently...It was an anachronism in 2007, and time moves quickly... now Lair sounds positively antique. Like so many skilled composers of yesteryear, Debney is discovering that he can either kiss his career goodbye, or start writing mindless generic blockbuster tat... which pays the bill.

Look what happened to the guys who refused to capitulate. (Bruce Broughton springs instantly to mind...)

Massive shame. Like so many things today.

[/OLD GIT MOANING MODE]

Thanks for gods and generals. I have heard it but I had a poor quality MP3. I can't get enough Edelman though.

Edelman is responsible for only like ten minutes of the score, it's really John Frizzell who deserves the kudos for this one. He's often looked down upon but I quite like his work. He's creative with his sounds. Tends to score trashy films though.

Trashy horror films no less. But yeah, shows hes capable of more.

Broughton's personality is what's hurt him; not that the climate is friendly for that type of work, regardless.

_Mike

Thanks a lot, Shadow! I can see it's the expanded edition: excellent.

Cutthroat Island is one of my favorite scores from Hollywood, in fact. I've got some great souvenirs about it, I used to listen to it a lot when I was young, at a very high volume! While other young people annoyed their parents and neighbours with rock and metal, I was doing the same with this score, among others!

This is a very impressive score, much more significant than the mediocre movie it's been composed for. One can be only marveled at its massive, larger-than-life, and incredibly enthusiastic nature. It's like Debney wanted to turn every button to the max, without restraint. He just lets the music shine almost as if it was composed for itself, and not so much for a movie. The actual on-screen result is somewhat heavy: I remember it was sometimes a little tiring during when watching. But when I listened to the score alone, it was an astonishing, even orgasmic musical experience.

Such scores become quite rare nowadays. Lair was indeed in the same vein, but then, what else can compare? Scores like Pirates of the Carribean are simply laughable compared to this one, or in fact to the vast majority of piratey scores composed before. Orchestral complexity seems to have gone bye-bye, frenetic swashbuckling seems to have transformed into simplistic ostinati, percussion loops, and 2 or 3 epic chords.


Mathazzar: Nice, I didn't know this one. Thanks for the recommandation.


About Bruce Broughton:

An amazing composer, and a true symphonist. Too bad he somewhat left the big screen to score mostly for TV. I just found this nice video of some of his greatest hits, a nice way of having a large vision of his talent (and I actually discovered some tunes I didn't know).




Bruce Broughton - Greatest Hits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KldNtPlhCHU

Silverado. So great.

_Mike

Mathazzar can you please reupload Gods and Generals? The link is dead. Try to use some multiupload site to prevent deleting the file. Cheers!

Will do, bud, give me a few to get it put on MultiUpload. :)

EDIT: It's up, enjoy!

Thanks mate, I've heard it long time ago in badly encoded mp3... time to upgrade to quality format! One more time, thanks a lot, the music is fantastic :)

Let me share this one with you.

Andr� Rieu At The Movies



Tracklist:
1. Love Theme (From Romeo and Juliet) - Nino Rota
2. Lara's Theme/Somewhere my Love (From Doctor Zhivago) - Maurice Jarre
3. My Heart Will Go On (From Titanic) - James Horner
4. The Second Waltz (From Eyes Wide Shut) - Dmitri Shostakovich
5. Heigh-Ho (From Snow White) - Frank Churchill
6. Moonriver (From Breakfast At Tiffany's) - Henry Mancini
7. Sirtaki / Zorba's Dance (From Zorba the Greek) - Mikis Theodorakis
8. Main Title (From The Godfather) - Nino Rota
9. Bolero (From 10) - Maurice Ravel
10. John Dunbar's Theme (From Dances with Wolves) - John Barry
11. The Windmills Of Your Mind (From The Thomas Crown Affair) - Michel Legrand
12. Edelweiss (From The Sound of Music) - Richard Rodgers & Oscar Hammerstein
13. True Love (From High Society) - Cole Porter
14. Stranger in Paradise (From Kismet) - Alexander Borodin, George Forrest & Robert Wright
15. Romance (From The Gadfly) - Dmitri Shostakovich
16. Main Title (From Once upon a Time in The West) - Ennio Morricone

Mp3 VBR
Download (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K3HUKU6R)

For the people who don't know Rieu, or this album; this is an album of soundtracks played classical with solo violin.

Hmm interesting one LordColin. I'll check it out.

This thread should never be buried so deep!

I hate to bump it with a plug of my own stuff, but for lack of anything else to share I've got an offering of two small tracks from this week that I basically put together to test out some new instruments. Hopefully those of you who are fans of film-y orchestral work (or who are familiar with my stuff) will find something to enjoy. I'm channeling my inner John Powell a bit with both of these. :)

Discovering the Plateau (http://soundcloud.com/mathazzar/discovering-the-plateau)

Clashing Cultures (http://soundcloud.com/mathazzar/clashing-cultures)

Very nice production values (the music is good too!). What were you testing?

Thank you! The trombones and choirs are new to the template, so I was primarily testing them out although they're not showcased in a gratuitous way (I hope)!

Everything sits quite nicely, I think. At a first listen it sounds well handled, but the choir begins to sound a bit fake and mechanical towards the higher registers (a common problem in most libraries I've come across- or maybe I'm not using them right). If you wouldn't mind sharing though, what libraries are you drawing the sounds from and what's your setup? Not often I get to compare my setup against other composers as I don't hang around composer communities, specifically...

Both are very nice. I prefer the second one as it is more my style. Great job man!

Glad to hear it! Yeah, choirs are finicky when you push them too high, I tried to keep them in a decent range. All of what you hear is run entirely from one Mac Pro (I hate slave machines) running Logic 8 with 7 or so instances of Kontakt 4 for this template....each hosting a pretty ridiculous collection of libraries, as is usually the case. Some EWQLSO, LASS, TH, custom stuff, etc etc. Reverb is per section (for the most part) just SpaceDesigner with some Bricasti convolution samples. Minimal post-processing, really, as I like to keep a clean signal wherever possible. There's some EQing done here and there to specific instruments to make sure they sit nicely in the mix, but otherwise it's fairly clean. :)

EDIT: Thank you, Sirus! :D

Mathazzar: wow, just wow. Very nice, clean tracks I almost believe it was recorded by John Debney with a real orchestra :) I just love the first track's second half, the xylophone reminds me of Cutthroat Island :) Please do more music, or expand these tracks for 4 or 5 minutes, that would be great!

Just a question: where can one download that kind of clean HQ orchestra instruments samples?

That's very kind of you to say! :D

These two were meant more as showcase tracks so I don't know that I'll be expanding them, but I'll definitely share the next time I've got some longer tracks done. :) As for getting the samples, sadly they're extremely expensive...one generally collects them over time, building a collection slowly and getting to really know each library very well before adding the next.

Mathazzar, you samples sound great. Good job.

Since we're sharing music, I would like to know what you think about this prologue..

Prologue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/gjddzznytjv/Prologue.mp3)

Mmmmm I feel like I just got hugged there, Colin. Very warm, rom-com sound. Is that you on the guitar?

Mmmmm I feel like I just got hugged there, Colin. Very warm, rom-com sound. Is that you on the guitar?
I agree, very nice rom-con piece. Reminds me of Christopher Young's Love Happens. Great stuff.

No, though I play the guitar myself. Classical guitar. But for this prologue I chose a guitarist with a less classical, and a very clean sound. ;-)

Thanks for your replies!