THE BIG ORCHESTRAL ACTION MUSIC THREAD! [Archive] - Page 71

The Zipper

02-04-2017, 09:12 PM

I think "Kanno" gets away with it because her organization is far, far more powerful than Samuragochi's two-man gig. She has always had access to some of the best vocalists and performers, not just in Japan, but THE WORLD, and the other half of her career is spent making very marketable pop songs. Her anime debut with Macross Plus had far more different international singers in it than any other Macross series to date... you don't get that kind of level of performers flying out the gate of whatever institution you came from, no matter how good of a composer you are. Iwasaki took years before he even got his usual vocalists like Lotus Juice, and his were never on the same level of renown as Kanno's. Not to mention, Kanno had almost NO musical background to speak of until after she was 20, and can surpass Williams and many other composers at their peak? I'm sure this was brought up somewhere in this thread, but even her interviews are not genuine. I find it quite interesting how she didn't even unveil herself as the voice of "Gabriella Robin" until the late 2000s, and that level of singing isn't something you can get with no training either. And of all the people she is closest to, the one she always affiliates herself with and considers her protege is Maaya Sakamoto, a singer? Don't be surprised if ten years from now Maaya Sakamoto magically becomes the greatest composer who ever lived and starts surpassing all the silver and golden age greats again.

My theory has always been that Yoko Kanno is not her real name, and the person we know as Yoko Kanno is merely a trained singer who can also play the piano (not amazingly well either, if you watch her videos), but in reality a face for a much larger media organization to create music. I've never actually seen her conduct anything, can you post links to that Warsaw concert?

Let's also not forget, the peak of Samuragochi's career was even higher than Kanno's, even getting an NHk documentary made about him, and he would never had been caught had his sole ghostwriter not ratted him out. Japan is very, very good at keeping secrets and denying claims, just look at how they treat their role in WWII. Some day, the truth about Kanno will come out, as long as she continues to remain active.

As for how her music sounds and "evolves"- I'm certain that she would reuse ghostwriters on certain projects, but many of her works were clearly made by different people. I hear a lot of Aquarian's style in Naotora, just as I can hear a lot of Turn A's in Frontier, but The Kanno of Wolf's Rain is not the Kanno of Turn A who is not the Kanno of Escaflowne who is also not the Kanno of Terror in Resonance. Kanno most likely has different people or different teams of people who she will reuse on certain projects. It's not like Iwasaki where no matter what he composes, you can tell it's by him (Interestingly enough, I just listened to his second Yakitate Japan soundtrack, which I didn't even know existed until a week ago, and can hear bits of North by Northwest scattered throughout). And that lack of cohesiveness throughout what I find the most suspicious about Kanno.

On the subject of plagiarism, one of Dragnoball's composers was caught a few years back for it and sent to the courts and fired from the show. He lifted his work from many western composers, though I don't recall which ones. Why this has not yet happened to Kanno is beyond me, though it wouldn't surprise me if her organization has many ties to the court as well, as all powerful media companies like Sony do.

Here is what I was talking about with Dragonball's composer (ripping off Horner... what incedible irony):

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/features/kenji-yamamoto-retrospective/

Vinphonic

02-04-2017, 11:13 PM

The Legacy of Japanese Composers
Yoshihisa Hirano

Fugues, Chorales, Twelve tones and an onslaught of counterpoint in general... welcome to the astonishing music world of Yoshihisa Hirano, a composer that exemplifies that art and commerce are not contradictory categories. There�s no excuse for not pursuing the boundaries of recorded music composition and applying centuries-old musical experimentation with modern tendencies within media music. His approach to media scoring was once a possible approach in western media scoring as well, but is now almost completely gone thanks to safe-testing, lowest-common-denominator-seeking, for-profit humiliation of a once noble and artful profession that reached the deepest places of hearts and minds of thousands of people.

Thank the gods there's still one �western� industrial nation left that still conducts media scoring like yesteryear, while embracing modern tendencies, but never abandoning century-old cultural foundations of music.

For every media product of Japan, there�s at least the chance it receives a musical score that channels the very best musical traditions of long-gone musical eras and the complexity of musical academics. No other media composer on earth uses this chance like Yoshihisa Hirano. Every minute of his music is filled to the brim with interesting things going on that the average film music lover and the 12 semester music academic can enjoy. Superficial is never the case with his music.

No composer is safe from exceptions of course, but he usually gives his media projects a distinct and unique musical identity, not unlike Taku Iwasaki, albeit a bit more unified in sound. He has MANY devices he loves to repeat in numerous works and yes, I�ll admit there�s quite an overabundance of Gregorian chants and baroque techniques but it NEVER is boring.

Most of his scores are recorded in a small studio and written for a chamber orchestra-sized ensemble, so keep that in mind. I would even go so far as to say that as an aspiring composer, you should study some of his scores as a masterclass of chamber composition and arrangement in media music. His use of percussion is also noteworthy and even worthy of study if you ask me. He trumps just about every other media composer alive in that field. Unfortunately, his only chance at a full symphony orchestra was as an arranger for Final Fantasy XIII. It�s a shame because he above all others should get the chance at a solo Warsaw score more than any other. His absolute mastery of the orchestra would be a blast to listen to with a full-sized orchestral ensemble.

Now diving into his body of work, of course everything is in FLAC if possible.

But before we begin, a toast (and rep) to tangotreats, nextday, Herr Salat and Akashi-san for providing certain scores in FLAC and saving me yet again the trouble of ripping cds:

Part I � Cacophonous Depths

Download (https://mega.nz/#!O8sjyaQS!GDomaneyWgsh_HltsCGj7Q6YVsW_zm3-Z9r_7ll8Ix8)

Broken Blade (�Break Blade�) and Real Dive (�RD Sennou Chousashitsu�) are masterclasses in vocal writing and Hirano�s favorite devices appear at their strongest here as well. In essence Broken Blade is more fantasy than scifi, exemplified later in my collection, with a beautiful impressionistic love theme as a counter to the frantic heroic fanfares and apocalyptic bravado. Real Dive has sublime use of percussion and piano.

DEATH NOTE is perhaps his most popular work and the one that put him on many people�s radar. While the recording circumstances are tragic, the music itself is an instant classic, used in the show to tremendous effect. It�s a gothic horror masterpiece with masterful use of choir and brass.

Meine Liebe and Ouran Highschool Host Club are masterclasses of reinterpreting classical works (something Hirano loves to do) with one�s own voice. The results don�t need to hide behind the originals at all, they can sit right alongside them. Absolutely beautiful and putting a smile on my face every time. This excellent music should not be forgotten and is thankfully studied and applied by dozens of old and upcoming Japanese composers. But still beyond tragic that the place where it originated from seems to have no place for it anymore. This level of class can only be found in Japanese Late-Night-Anime, apparently.

Silk Boy Yuto is a fantastic score, using almost the whole Chinese repertoire with a bigger orchestral ensemble then what we are used to by Hirano. Much more brass heavy as well. Beautiful heroic themes and fanfares interplay with sublime Asian romanticism and baroque intersections.

Part II � Dissonant Adventure

Download (https://mega.nz/#!3t8wjYbC!ttlwBFO6fUsKNDECoF1i24SMrJJZDML2_q1ManTlamk)

Super Robot Wars OG �Divine Wars- is a furious tour de force of operatic orchestral bombast with some of my favorite action pieces from Hirano with much Christian kitsch. A precursor to Broken Blade and equally delicious.

HunterXHunter and Tanken Driland are a blessing. Both masterclasses of descending from carefree romantic adventure into atonal madness and terror. It�s almost unbelievable what he did for �children�s entertainment� . Many of my favorite Hirano compositions can be found in HxH and Driland, including the masterpiece of glooming terror �Theme of Kage� or the gorgeous happy-go-lucky Hero�s stroll �Adventure Princess�.

The Book of Bantorra is a cross of DEATH NOTE and Tanken Driland, continuing with gothic atmosphere and apocalyptic moments of dread, intersected by beautiful piano concerto moments. As usual, excellent usage of choir. Not his absolute best but still great music.

Part III � Introspective Atonality

Download (https://mega.nz/#!SlViEYLK!YLZovQ0l1-BSgFbElHDbdPSHPtE_sdQQFmdrdvg8kmg)

Stormbringer is Hirano�s take on a superhero score� meaning much dissonance amidst heroic themes and bravado. Good stuff.

Harukanaru Toki no Naka de is a traditional film score with much Japanese flair. His usage of percussion is excellent as always and it�s full of lyricism and beauty. A nice change of pace.

Top Secret and his Hajime no Ippo scores are a departure from his usual trademarks in a sense. Sure, rock and Jazz were parts of his other works as well, but here they really come into their own. Sch�nbergian dissonance rock and jazz describes it best.
His beautiful string (quartet) and piano pieces are still here but the hectic, fast, rhythmic electronic chaos is dominant. Fascinating scores to say the least.

Pin to Kona shows Hirano�s adaptability. He is a master of a thousand styles, now playing the �TV drama� sound with such sincere intent you would not believe it�s him at first glance, but arrangement and typical devices give him away. But remember, many composer are struggling with being better than just achieving that drama sound, and Hirano plays this card with such effortlessness that it almost ridicules his peers.

The remaining scores are good carefree fun that put a smile on your face. Jazzy and quirky with much musical humor. Right now Hirano kind of dwells in this mode but I�m sure he will return full-force sometime soon. Bayblade was his major debut score, and it still holds up today but is nonetheless dwarfed by his following efforts.

Last year he was busy with two solo piano albums, and they are both excellent brain food. A treat for your synapses, one being a complex labyrinth and the other a more straightforward �flowery� expression.

Part IV � Discordant Appendix

Download (https://mega.nz/#!3xtmWLBR!hqNyjTSPKXjawiwgP33-iAbDgcAApC0EFldQOViVPTg)

Finally we have his arrangements for Final Fantasy XIII and a custom score I did for myself first and foremost many years ago: Dark Souls 2. I enjoy playing it but I hold the opinion that the music is forgettable garbage. Still, I can�t be mad at Sakuraba because of Kid Icarus but the game deserves better:

�Dark Souls 2 despite is shortcomings is a pretty good game but sadly has a terrible musical score and just like Dark Souls 3 and to a lesser extend Dark Souls 1, I can't have that in my games. Being in love with the general aesthetics and gameplay of the "Souls Series" I want to play them with a musical experience that at least matches the quality of everything else.
My initial feelings towards the game came down to the word "chaotic" and I just knew which composer fits that description like a glove ;) I thought he might be perfect to hold the otherwise fragmented game together musically. I always felt that Broken Blade was more Dark Fantasy than SciFi anyway, so I did a quick matchup and voila... it fitted so well I just had to do it.
It also does help that the games basically have just has 3 musical states: "hub", "environment" and "boss" and that allows a custom playlist while playing with pretty much no effort required.
So I edited and arranged a custom score for Dark Souls II from various Hirano pieces that stay consistent in tone (Dark Fantasy) and perfectly match the environments. I've also applied Reverb to give the illusion of being recorded in a big hall.
I approached it this way, the Main Theme from Broken Blade becomes the Main Theme for Dark Souls II as well. The second important Theme is for The Kingdom, its ruler and his loyal servants and only appears when something related to those three aspects is on screen, the theme is also taken from Broken Blade.
I wanted the Boss Battles to have an ebb and flow to them, so I've arranged various action pieces to build up with thematic consistency which could also work as concert arrangements (some tracks do loop though).
Many important bosses in the game have matching thematic consistency with the music of the environment. I'm particularly fond of "Sir Alonne" which is among my favorite video game boss battles thanks to the music Hirano provides (I used the Theme of Stormbringer for Sir Alonne and his memories).
Hirano�s music really is magical (not in a pixie-dust kind of way but more in a Nimh-like way) and does wonders for the game. It greatly enhanced my experience and enjoyment.�

So that concludes what I first conceived as the final part of my Legacy composer series. But since I�ve learned a few things since then, there�s actually one more that needs to be put in focus ;)

streichorchester

02-04-2017, 11:43 PM

I remember that Dragonball Kai/Avatar thing. I didn't realize there was some investigation going on, then ultimately a replacement soundtrack being written. That sort of nullifies the "different culture" excuse I often see come up defending Kanno's plagiarism. I also remember the guy who wrote the Metal Gear Solid theme was confronted about it being a rip off of Sviridov's Winter Road.

I also remember Uematsu had to replace a track in FF8 because it was too similar to The Rock. I don't know the full story behind that one. Uematsu is at least talented enough that he can go "my bad" and write something just as good to replace it. Since it was the FF8 demo, maybe he was short on time and had to resort to plagiarism or using a ghostwriter.

Luckily Naotora is 100% original in my ears (so far.) Maybe Kanno knew she was walking on thin ice after Macross Frontier. I haven't watched the anime since it was first released, but there was a track that was a direct rip of Bill Conti's The Right Stuff that seems to have been changed. I haven't confirmed it, yet, but I do have the audio. For some reason it doesn't appear on the OSTs or in the comprehensive "Unreleased Tracks" collection that has the audio rip of all tracks from each episode that don't appear in the OSTs.

Here it is (http://tindeck.com/listen/zsqxf) in case anyone wants to find out what episode this was from and what music it was replaced with

PonyoBellanote

02-04-2017, 11:52 PM

You guys are bashing on Yoko Kanno so hard, with my brother idolizes. If he was there he'd hit you all. :laugh:

The Zipper

02-04-2017, 11:56 PM

^Oh please, Sawano and Kajiura fans are far more frightening and loud and numerous than Kanno ones, and you will rarely find anyone here who doesn't rake those two over. :)

PonyoBellanote

02-05-2017, 12:06 AM

Oh no, he's not like that, I was just kinda joking for the laughs. But anytime I hear him talk about Kanno, is to say how awesome she is.

streichorchester

02-05-2017, 12:14 AM

Kanno is my favourite anime composer. Dance of Curse has haunted me for nearly 20 years.

The Zipper

02-05-2017, 12:19 AM

I also think Kanno makes the best music in all of anime, if not all of currently existing media. Who else can write better than Williams at his peak in the 70s who still lives today?

Just because I love her music doesn't mean I buy into who she is as a composer. There are too many blatantly obvious signs to ignore.

tangotreats

02-05-2017, 12:43 AM

I think "Kanno" gets away with it because her organization is far, far more powerful than Samuragochi's two-man gig.

The more people who are "in on it", the higher the chances are that somebody will blow the whistle.

She has always had access to some of the best vocalists and performers, not just in Japan, but THE WORLD

Who has she worked with - with the exception of orchestras who are for hire and will work with anybody - who would be generally accepted as world class? (I will accept as "world class" people who have respected and substantial international careers outside of their work with Kanno)

Not to mention, Kanno had almost NO musical background to speak of until after she was 20, and can surpass Williams and many other composers at their peak?

Kanno has never surpassed Williams or even matched him, though at this mid point in her career, we haven't heard her best by any stretch of the imagination.

...the person we know as Yoko Kanno is merely a trained singer who can also play the piano (not amazingly well either, if you watch her videos), but in reality a face for a much larger media organization to create music. I've never actually seen her conduct anything, can you post links to that Warsaw concert?

Here she is at the piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtNiGCZR2-E
...and conducting a rehearsal for the Tokyo Philharmonic Turn A Gundam concert: https://youtu.be/u7fsxIvmBes?t=7m14s
...and more from the same rehearsal: https://youtu.be/u7fsxIvmBes?t=13m20s
...and conducting the actual concert: https://youtu.be/u7fsxIvmBes?t=29m14s
...and playing piano with the orchestra at the same concert: https://youtu.be/u7fsxIvmBes?t=41m9s

The later concert I referred to (held in 2009, also in Tokyo, but they flew the entire Warsaw Philharmonic to Japan for some insane reason) was not recorded.

She's not a fantastic pianist, but she gets the job done. Nor is she a fantastic conductor, but she's in control and she keeps the orchestra together - she gets the job done - when you're working with the likes of the Warsaw Philharmonic, time is money and there isn't an opportunity to play games; and yet Kanno has conducted about half of her own scores - even in Warsaw, where it is customary to hire a Polish conductor.

Macross (Israel, 1994) was conducted by Anthony Inglis, Nobunaga (Warsaw, 1995) by Jacek Rogala, Escaflowne (Warsaw, 1996) by Inglis, Brain Powerd (Warsaw, 1998) by Inglis and Mario Klemens, Turn A Gundam (Warsaw, 1999) shared between Inglis, Klemens, and Kanno, Aquarion (2005, Warsaw) by Kanno, Ragnarok (2006, Warsaw) by Kanno, Macross Frontier (2008, Warsaw) by Kanno, and Naotora (2016, Tokyo) by Jarvi for the NHK Symphony Orchestra performance and Kanno for the studio orchestra performance.

Let's also not forget, the peak of Samuragochi's career was even higher than Kanno's, even getting an NHk documentary made about him, and he would never had been caught had his sole ghostwriter not ratted him out.

Indeed, because the deception was deliberately kept between as few people as possible; the link you posted describes how Samuragochi carefully stage-managed the documentary to make it look like he was a tortured genius in a frenzy of artistic creativity when in fact he was a lying showman showing off manuscripts posted to him by Niigaki the day before. If there were a hundred people "in on it" I doubt whether the Samuragochi deception would've lasted more than a couple of years before somebody snapped.

Japan is very, very good at keeping secrets and denying claims, just look at how they treat their role in WWII. Some day, the truth about Kanno will come out, as long as she continues to remain active.

This is true, but I still propose that in a world of common sense, even bearing in mind the unique Japanese cover-up and shame culture, a thirty-year deception as large and complete as the one you propose for Kanno... simply couldn't take place for any length of time. Thirty years? Not a chance, not even in Japan.

As for how her music sounds and "evolves"- I'm certain that she would reuse ghostwriters on certain projects, but many of her works were clearly made by different people. I hear a lot of Aquarian's style in Naotora, just as I can hear a lot of Turn A's in Frontier, but The Kanno of Wolf's Rain is not the Kanno of Turn A who is not the Kanno of Escaflowne who is also not the Kanno of Terror in Resonance. Kanno most likely has different people or different teams of people who she will reuse on certain projects.

I categorically and vigorously disagree.

ALL of Kanno's orchestral work - from her earliest work on Nobunaga through to her latest on Naotora, is clearly by the same person; even in cases where it is difficult to pick apart the Kanno from the apparently endless conveyor belt of plagiarisms on display, there are very clear stylistic traits common to every single note of music put out in her name. (Quiet Landing in Turn A, End Titles in Escaflowne - listen and tell me with a straight face they're not by the same composer. Even Terror in Resonance - listen beyond the instrumentation; the Kanno harmonic tendencies, the melodic sensibilities, are all there. Not particularly well hidden either.)

And if Kanno is a series of ghostwriters, what are these ghostwriters doing all the time they're not working for Kanno? How come we're not hearing scores turning up that sound like Yoko Kanno? Does her team of ghostwriters, including some of the finest composers and orchestrators in Japan, have a double life working in McDonalds and only come out to play every four or five years when Kanno does a big symphonic score?

And that lack of cohesiveness throughout what I find the most suspicious about Kanno.

I know what you're getting at, here - on a cue-by-cue basis there is sometimes a lack of cohesiveness (but not in Naotora!) but I really believe that is due to that old favourite... Kanno plagiarism. She can't resist dropping in something she likes - so in comes Herrmann, Elliot Goldenthal, Janacek, Orff, Robinson, and fifty different people - but even in the passages which are clearly plagiarised, there's the Kanno signature.

On the subject of plagiarism, one of Dragnoball's composers was caught a few years back for it and sent to the courts and fired from the show. He lifted his work from many western composers, though I don't recall which ones. Why this has not yet happened to Kanno is beyond me, though it wouldn't surprise me if her organization has many ties to the court as well, as all powerful media companies like Sony do.

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, as a rule - but the Dragonball situation is really, REALLY ODD taken in context of the larger Japanese plagiarism problem. The thefts weren't anywhere near as blatant or frequent as Kanno's, or Amano's, or anybody's - and yet the guy lost his job, had all his music replaced, and has now resorted to changing his name so he can work again. WHAT?

MastaMist

02-05-2017, 12:54 AM

Why it's almost as if a woman is just that talented or something. ��

Considering how not terribly popular or renowed most works w Kanno attached really are in Japan (outside of Macross), I really doubt she's some conspiratorial superwoman w a vast network of coverups in place behind her. I mean, why her?

Herr Salat

02-05-2017, 02:17 AM

When I listen to tracks like Test Flight Delight (Macross Frontier) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhkGWbJNzJU) which are like mini-concert works wrapped up in a neat little package, I don't get the impression it is written by someone who is satisfied by writing music for overly sentimental commercials and dramas. Then again, she might be following the James Horner model and only picking projects that are meaningful to her.
(...)
It's possible she has a knack for orchestral writing but prefers not to indulge in it unless the paycheck demands it. It's really hard to believe this if the orchestral music is so well written, which is why I believe the Horner/orchestrator/ghostwriter theory. Again, good orchestral music has always ever been written by those composers who love orchestral music UNLESS they had outside help. Otherwise Kanno is a genius orchestrator who prefers not to write orchestral music. That I cannot accept.

---streichorchester, 2011

Here's a live performance of Test Flight Delight from the 2nd Macross Frontier concert ('cosmic nyaan') in 2010:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqcdLEEVhgA

Kanno conducts. Also conducting: one flutist and one trumpet player (at 1:04)?

The Zipper

02-05-2017, 02:43 AM

The more people who are "in on it", the higher the chances are that somebody will blow the whistle.
People? No, this is a large recording company. Most likely Victor Entertainment. In a large organization, one person speaking out amounts to essentially nothing. Even with Samuragochi, a handful of musicians and critics had called him out on his fraudulence, only to be ignored. The only reason Samuragochi was caught was because his right-hand man ratted him out. In a large media organization where power is even more split up in the subgroups, a person does not have enough credibility to prove company secrets unless said person was the very president of that company, and you would never get him to admit such things even if you waterboarded him. I don't need to explain this, look at all the people and officials in large companies who have complained about inhuman conditions or policies and with actual documented evidence, and have been laughed out of the courts. Aniplex, Kadokawa, whatever- they're all far far more powerful and better at keeping secrets than Samuragochi and his ghost.

Who has she worked with - with the exception of orchestras who are for hire and will work with anybody - who would be generally accepted as world class?
Steve Conte, Carla Vallet, Mark Soskin, Artur Stefanowicz, Cris Mosdell, Arn�r Dan, along with a large handful of other world-class singers, performers, etc, most recently Lang-Lang. Not to mention all the careers that popped up for various artists like Origa and Maya Sakamoto immediately after working with Kanno, and her own band, the Seatbelts. The other question you should be asking- how the hell did she get access to so many international orchestras the moment she touched anime? She was an arranger for a couple years, and in her debut with Plus they immediately gave her the Israel Philharmonic? Never have I ever seen that happen with any other composer from Japan.

Kanno has never surpassed Williams or even matched him
You will probably disagree with this, but I consider Turn A to be on par with the best of Williams, not just because of the plagiarisms. And compared to his recent output like Force Awakens, it demolishes it. Her other soundtracks like those for Bebop and Ghost in the Shell are also in a league of their own compared to other similar artists.

Live Performances
Thanks for showing me that video, it's the first time I've ever seen Kanno do anything more than playing piano. Good to see that she can conduct and speak music, but it still doesn't make me any less suspicious as to whether she actually wrote it. I believe Samuragochi occasionally conducted as well. Even Yutaka Yamamoto, who is not at all trained musically and is just an anime director, can conduct an ensemble as decently large as the one for Fractale.

Thirty years? Not a chance, not even in Japan.
How long has idol culture lasted in Japan? Pretty sure it's been longer than thirty years. And you know what goes on behind the scenes in that industry, so I won't go any further.

Ironically, Kanno is one of the current living composers who has contributed heavily to idol culture with Macross and Maaya Sakamoto.

ALL of Kanno's orchestral work - from her earliest work on Nobunaga through to her latest on Naotora, is clearly by the same person; even in cases where it is difficult to pick apart the Kanno from the apparently endless conveyor belt of plagiarisms on display, there are very clear stylistic traits common to every single note of music put out in her name.
You're telling me that Wolf's Rain sounds anything remotely like Turn A? Not just stylistically, all the arrangements, melodies, timbres, etc- all are different. Like I said before, I don't doubt that she reuses ghost writers for certain projects, which is why some of them have a lot in common musically. But for the most part, her music has extremely low cohesiveness compared to other composers. And whenever she jumps into whatever "type" of music she does, she does it flawlessly. Who else can jump from symphonic orchestra to pure Iceland-inspired prog rock and make it sound like it came from the mainland itself? Not even Iwasaki is that versatile.

And if Kanno is a series of ghostwriters, what are these ghostwriters doing all the time they're not working for Kanno?
Samuragochi's ghost was a university professor, and many composers like Tomoyuki Asakawa (who plays the harp) are also extremely well-trained instrumentalists who can get stints from other jobs of that nature. There's no shortage of jobs for musicians out there, as long as they can accept the pay.

As for why they're working for Kanno instead of doing their own thing and taking credit? In Niigaki's case, not only did he get to see his music played by some of Japan's best musicians, but he got to conduct it as well. How many musicians not only get the opportunity to have their music played by a large symphony orchestra, but by the one from Israel, Warsaw, Moscow, and various others? Who cares about credit when your music is performed by the best of the best? And that is why all ghostwriters and arrangers are willing to work despite receiving no credit. They get to hear their music, and that self-satisfaction is more than enough. Amano would probably tell you the same thing, for as long as he's slaved with Sagisu.

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, as a rule - but the Dragonball situation is really, REALLY ODD taken in context of the larger Japanese plagiarism problem. The thefts weren't anywhere near as blatant or frequent as Kanno's, or Amano's, or anybody's - and yet the guy lost his job, had all his music replaced, and has now resorted to changing his name so he can work again. WHAT?
Because unlike Kanno, he wasn't protected by his recording agency. You're severely underestimating the power that companies like Victor Entertainment and Aniplex have in Japan. Kanno is certainly not the only one to plagiarize, and certainly not the only one to not get caught.

Considering how not terribly popular or renowed most works w Kanno attached really are in Japan (outside of Macross)
In Japan, Kanno is the most popular composer after Hisaishi. Bebop's music is praised there as much as it is here in the States. Many composers like her fellow namesake Yuugo have openly admitted admiration for her as well.

As for "why her"? Why not? She is a fairly young a good-looking woman who is at least competent enough musically to conduct an orchestra and play the piano. Maybe she is more talented and capable of composing than I am making her out to be, but regardless of how good she is, her entire history has suggested her being supported by an extremely powerful recording company that gives her the best of the best. She never worked her way to the top, she jumped there with almost no training from the moment she joined the industry.

Akashi San

02-05-2017, 04:21 AM

@Vinphonic: Awesome compilation there, mate!

In terms of my personal favorites, FF XIII and some tracks Hirano arranged for Ali Project stand out as the best (plus a few arrangement for FF XI). While Hirano is among my favorites, I prefer his orchestration of other composers' works than his original compositions - except maybe Ouran.

In Japan, Kanno is the most popular composer after Hisaishi. Bebop's music is praised there as much as it is here in the States. Many composers like her fellow namesake Yuugo have openly admitted admiration for her as well.
Just one remark - the gap in name recognition between Hisaishi and Kanno is extremely big. Actually, I would say most Japanese people don't know or care who wrote which soundtracks, unless it's by Hisaishi.

The Zipper

02-05-2017, 04:52 AM

Just one remark - the gap in name recognition between Hisaishi and Kanno is extremely big. Actually, I would say most Japanese people don't know or care who wrote which soundtracks, unless it's by Hisaishi. Obviously, it's like comparing Miyazaki's popularity with that of Tomino. But that doesn't underscore the fame of either Tomino or Kanno.

nextday

02-05-2017, 05:36 PM

Oh lord. I've been away from this thread for a week and I come back to... conspiracy nonsense? smh

The Zipper

02-05-2017, 08:16 PM

Found this quote on Neogaf, not sure if one of you guys here wrote it, but it sums up my overall feelings about Kanno quite succinctly compared to what I wrote. Kanno is simply too bizarre of an entity to just mark off as a genius and call it a day.

There are not that many composers who are well rounded enough in being able to compose classical showpieces, powerful cantatas, delicate melodies for strings and piano, chamber music, all the while being thematically coherent, or catchy even. John Williams can do this. James Horner and Alan Silvestri can. They've all been known to borrow from classical music, however, so maybe the secret to being well rounded in the various genres of orchestral scoring is to have as many sources as possible, especially in classical music.

Plagiarism in music is a funny thing because what constitutes plagiarism varies from person to person. Some might say there must be a similarity in melody to an exact number of notes; others say that as long as the general "feeling" is the same it's a rip off, regardless of any melodic indicator or lack thereof. It's a delicate subject that has little legal precedent and even less academic study behind it. In my opinion Kanno plagiarizes some music, but most of the time, at least in terms of her orchestral numbers, she's well within her right to be inspired by the likeness of Ravel or Prokofiev. Fundamentally, as long as the piece doesn't rely on the sources she is knocking off, the origins of the ideas are of little concern.

But Kanno's music, to those who are interested, remains surrounded in mystery; the mystery of a Japanese woman with little to no known orchestral experience being given ever increasing use of world class orchestras to score anime. She's accomplished what several thousand more musically educated (not to mention older) composers have set out to do, and did it better than they ever could. On many occasions she even manages to outclass most Hollywood composers and contemporary classical composers. And this is only one area of her talents. Taking into account her non-orchestral scores like Cowboy Bebop and Wolf's Rain, she moves in between genres with a frightening ease; writing hit pop songs and jazz charts with the same adeptness as her orchestral work.

And that's what she's mostly known for: her pop music, which is one of my reasons for writing these summaries. On first glance, anyone subject to Kanno's OSTs would think that she writes the pop tunes while a team of orchestrators, or one really talented orchestrator, handles the ever-tedious, classical-laden orchestrations. But if she is indeed a one-person powerhouse of musical ability, let it be known that her orchestral music far surpasses anything else she's written in terms of quality and presentation
If Kanno is as good and versatile as her music demonstrates her to be, she would arguably be the greatest musician who ever lived, full-stop. And if that really were the case, she wouldn't be working in anime.

tangotreats

02-05-2017, 11:40 PM

TAKASHI NIIGAKI
Symphony "Litany" (unofficially Symphony No. 2)
Piano Concerto "Rebirth"
Green Floating Eternally

Tokyo Chamber Orchestra
Takashi Niigaki, piano
conducted by Takashi Niigaki (Symphony, Green Floating Eternally)
conducted by Kunihiro Nakamura (Piano Concerto)

https://mega.nz/#!M4Qz2BaI!p4KKRkxafqUkL9Pxh6cZ-WxAjfbMDguFvSxNamigrw8

By now, I'm sure every musically-inclined person on the planet is aware of the sad tale of Mamoru Samuragochi - the famous deaf Japanese composer who penned a behemoth symphony in tribute to the victims of the Hiroshima bomb, but turned out to be a manipulative liar who paid Takashi Niigaki a pittance to write his music, and threatened to kill himself and his wife if Niigaki revealed the deception.

At the time, it looked like curtains not only for Samuragochi's career for also for the career of Niigaki - but thankfully public sympathy shifted to the underdog and Niigaki fashioned a career as a composer under his own steam.

(In the sleeve notes for the Hiroshima symphony, a thoroughly-duped Seiji Choki writes that Samuragochi had written TWELVE symphonies previously but destroyed them (presumably) in a fit of artistic perfectionism with the view of making the "Hiroshima" symphony his first official opus.)

This recent release showcases three new symphonic works; a symphony (which was at one point sniffily entitled "Symphony No. 2" but now carries only the title "Litany", a piano concerto (entitled "Rebirth" - with Niigaki himself playing the solo part under the baton of young conductor Kunihiro Nakamura), and a short and pastoral tone poem called "Green Floating Eternally".

The style is largely unchanged from his Samuragochi days - so if you liked the Hiroshima symphony, you'll like this - it's tonal though adventurous, late-romantic music that neatly disregards almost all of the nasty "conventions" that have over the past one hundred years conspired to kill classical music. It's very "paint by numbers" - it takes very few risks and doesn't try to reinvent the wheel - but I find it highly professional and overall a worthwhile listen. Though a chamber orchestra is credited with the performance, make no mistake - this is fully-throated, symphonic music played by a large ensemble. The performance itself (recorded live) is excellent as is the sound quality. The composer himself conducts the symphony and the tone poem, whilst Nakamura takes the podium for the concerto in order that the composer plays the solo part.

The "Hiroshima" symphony is now unavailable as Samuragochi's record label deleted it immediately following his confession. It can be downloaded here: Thread 57893

Enjoy! :)
TT

GreatKenji

02-06-2017, 01:21 AM

Hey yo! Nice discussion you have in here. Regarding Kanno and her borrowings from other composers... I think we all can agree that nowadays most of all music composers take "inspiration" from other works, for example I recall Kanno herself interpolating a theme from David Arnold's Stargate into Macross F, or Shinkichi Mitsumune doing something similar with Vangelis' Bizarre Bazaar theme from the German release of the Alexander score in Yu-Gi-Oh!, or my favorite composer Shiro Sagisu constantly using John Barry's 007 motif in Evangelion and Shin Godzilla... Let's face it, even the Western high-profile composers do the same... Like Howard Shore using a theme from Mark Mancina's Speed in The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, or John Debney borrowing a theme from Shore from the aforementioned film for The Passion of the Christ, or James Horner (R.I.P.) reusing so many of his motifs in several scores he wrote, and Zimmer doing the same as well... So bottom line let's not bash a certain composer for borrowing themes, actually most of all music composers do the same nowadays, even if they take just little inspiration or rip a complete theme or motif from other composer, it's the same thing. By the way, do anyone have the Highlander III score? I've looking for it for quite some time and it truly is worth of listening...

The Zipper

02-06-2017, 02:18 AM

Kanno has stolen more than any anime composer I've known, but that's the least of my criticisms with her. The worst part is how she says in interviews that she never listens to anyone else's music... and then somehow we get all these "references" in the middle of all her songs? Do you have any idea how much music she would have to listen to to rip off someone else's work, across the 50 or so genres she's dabbled in? It's nutty and incomprehensible.

And here is what shocks me the most- her plagiarisms sound so close to the original, down to the instruments and ensemble size used, no matter what genre, that you have to wonder what kind of technical skill and listening prowess she has to decipher all the music, just to replay and remix it with her own instruments and synthesizers and vocalists! If she is doing this by herself she is not only the greatest musician who ever lived, she's also the most technically brilliant genius of acoustic design who ever existed. And her fanboys would love to eat that up.

No composer has ever been free from plagiarizing or self-quoting, but Kanno's case goes far deeper. She's a liar and happy to be one.

Also Kenji, I find it quite funny how your favorite composer Sagisu is also a fraud who has to rely all on Masamichi Amano's ghostwriting talent to even touch an orchestra. Well, no surprise that a hack like him would work with a hack director like Anno, to produce Shin Godzilla's music, the most hackish and shamelessly self-quoting score I've ever heard.

GreatKenji

02-06-2017, 03:33 AM

As far as I know Amano is only Sagisu's orchestrator, and some times arranger along with CHOKAKKU, but let's say you're right and he takes credit for Amano who is in fact the real composer... Still I enjoy their music. And I also enjoy Kanno's music as much as that composed by the likes of Yuki Kajiura, John Barry, David Arnold, Seiji Yokoyama, Thomas Newman, Kenji Kawai, James Horner, Michiru Oshima and so many more. I understand how you feel, I couldn't believe it myself the first time I realised these guys got inspiration from someone else, but then I comprehended that they're humans with flaws. I guess it's wrong that some of they say that don't listen to others' compositions and that in some other cases shamelessly claim their works are originals...

The Zipper

02-06-2017, 04:05 AM

Oh yes, at this point I've learned to separate the artist from their work. I may not like the ethics of Kanno, and question her background to no end and whether or not she is a real human being, but like I said before there is no denying that her music is among the best of the best. Why does she bother to steal so often when her original material is top notch already? I don't think anyone here can answer that question.

I wouldn't even mind if western composers took a few pages from her guidebook. If you're going to steal, steal from the best, not Zimmer and his clones. Just be sure to do it better than Giacchino.

Herr Salat

02-06-2017, 05:36 AM

Found this quote on Neogaf, not sure if one of you guys here wrote it

That's from a document by streichorchester. Here a repost:

Yoko Kanno
ACTION MUSIC (1994-2005)

2008 Analysis by streichorchester (PDF) + music files (MP3 320 from Jaggid1x's discography torrent at nyaa.se):
mega.nz (https://mega.nz/#!AJhgxbiS!f4cT_n7yB2-_c_aCTWhmhScA8fGOJM-dkLJYBuL4AaE)

<hr>

Re: Conducting / Fractale (Thread 57893)
- Overture from Fractale (wind ensemble): composer Souhei Kano (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkRaXFvD-iU) vs. guest conductor, the series director Yutaka Yamamoto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35Bz4DXJ0A)
- Fractale OST (MP3 -V0) by nextday (Thread 57893)

Re: Iwasaki / Agito (Thread 57893)
- Making Of regarding the score (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGlugB_pnh4) (I don't have access to the English home video releases, so here only wonky English translation from the German DVD subtitles)
- Agito OST � Vinphonic order (FLAC) (Thread 57893)

MastaMist

02-06-2017, 06:10 AM

"Sagisu can't orchestrate without Amano" narratives are great for how they, rather stupidly, ignore the entire 90's.

The Zipper

02-06-2017, 06:14 AM

That's from a document by streichorchester.
Well, I expected as much. Thanks for the original document.

Fascinating video on Iwasaki too, as expected, he didn't seem too happy to be there, and the director seems to be the very controlling type. For all his efforts though Agito was unfortunately not a very good movie.

And Yamakan... I have to wonder why he decided to be an anime director. His career has been nothing but failure and whining.

narratives are great for how they, rather stupidly, ignore the entire 90's.
His pathetic synth and chamber stints you mean? If he's so capable why does he still need Amano as a crutch?

MastaMist

02-06-2017, 06:22 AM

hahaha, "crutch." I dunno, cuz they're professional peers and freinds who have worked and performed together on all kinds of projects for years?

The Zipper

02-06-2017, 06:27 AM

Just like Samurogochi and Niigaki, right? :)

Okay, that's a bit unfair of a comparison, but if you honestly think Sagisu is only hiring Amano because they're BFFs or whatever irrelevant excuse you want to bring into professionalism, then man do I have some news for you.

MastaMist

02-06-2017, 06:35 AM

No, it's a foolish comparison(90's/early 00's Sagisu sounds nothing at all like Amano, and his albums are consistently good about crediting performers), but I'm long past expecting actual logic from these hilarious, snobass "this composer hiring a close peer to orchestrate is PROOF he has no talent!" narratives beyond baseless speculation built around literally nothing but your own opinions. Like, you still haven't given a reason why he wouldn't, or shouldn't hire Amano, or anyone else, and I don't expect that you will.

The Niigaki upload is fascinating, thanks! Listening to now!

The Zipper

02-06-2017, 06:44 AM

I'm sorry that you are literally incapable of doing google searches to find out that Sagiusu needs Amano because of his experience working with large foreign orchestras, especially London, where most of Sagisu's recent scores were being recorded.

There is nothing snobbish about this. Sagisu's musical prowess is nothing compared to Amano. He may be a great pop and choir arranger, but when it comes to working with a large symphony orchestra, Sagisu cannot do it without Amano. You have yet to give me another valid reason why Amano continues to work with Sagisu.

Mind you, I have nothing against orchestator and composer relationships. Everyone from the Golden Age did it other than Herrmann and Morricone. But by himself nothing Sagisu has done has touched the level of skill that would show up once he started collaborating with Amano. And hell, even Amano can't save Sagisu from making occasional garbage like Shin Godzilla.

JBarron2005

02-06-2017, 04:54 PM

PonyoBellanote

02-06-2017, 04:57 PM

There's a possibility tomorrow Intrada might issue DuckTales: The Movie by David Newman and that makes me cream myself in excitement

The Zipper

02-06-2017, 05:21 PM

I have one question... do you compose music or have you composed music?
I've taken piano lessons before, though I'm not sure what my credentials has anything to do with this. I really hope you aren't using such a silly argument as an excuse to to give Kanno the okay for her plagiarisms.

If you want to make a point, please do bluntly.

Vinphonic

02-06-2017, 05:59 PM

There's a possibility tomorrow Intrada might issue DuckTales: The Movie by David Newman and that makes me cream myself in excitement

Hellz Yeah!!! (if true)

I wish they would hurry with Kamen's Robin Hood. How many more years do I have to wait for one of my favorite Silver Age scores :(

PonyoBellanote

02-06-2017, 06:24 PM

"Early 90s animated theatrical feature gets its debut on CD. Lengthy, large orchestral score filled with excitement and charm."

What movies fit that description?

JBarron2005

02-06-2017, 09:21 PM

I've taken piano lessons before, though I'm not sure what my credentials has anything to do with this. I really hope you aren't using such a silly argument as an excuse to to give Kanno the okay for her plagiarisms.

If you want to make a point, please do bluntly.

I am just saying let her write what she wants. I mean there is a LOT that goes into composing. I have been doing it for 17 years, wrote concert scores and released over nine albums last year alone. And I still have a LOT to learn as far as composition. She can write for not just small orchestras but big orchestras and even with the fact there is evidence she borrows a lot, she doesn't just rip the music verbatim. I think the problem is definition here. Plagiarism is a note for note copy. She doesn't do this. Sure she rides that thin line, but never does she go over the edge. You write for that many years and see how original your ideas are. It really is a feat to not make a nod somewhere or perhaps write a style you love to do. I mean I write music I like to listen to. Is it plagiarism, nah. It just means I love those chords and similar melodies.

Good composers create and great composers steal. It is how it has been since Mozart. If we are going to hold Kanno up there might as well put every composer who has used something. Not sure why it is a deal. Copyright companies haven't threw that hammer down on her so I guess maybe she isn't plagiarizing according to the law.

Sirusjr

02-06-2017, 10:11 PM

Many thanks Tango for your share.

Also in case everyone missed it, there is a CD that was released last year of a re-recording of the original 1954 Godzilla soundtrack orchestrated by Kaoru Wada. You can find it here in mp3.
Thread 209812

tangotreats

02-06-2017, 10:22 PM

Well, I've managed to avoid getting involved in any arguments in this thread for a fair number of years now, but I can almost guarantee that I'm going to do just that this evening. ;)

With the greatest respect, JBarron, are you insane?

I love Kanno - I think her music is SUPERB, and continues to get better. The oft-discussed issues with her music used to bother me, but they no longer do - because the music is so bloody good I literally do not care any more. Choosing to like the music despite the problems and refusing to acknowledge the existence of the problems constitute two very different states of mind. From every perspective that matters - storytelling ability, construction, listening experience, it's first grade. The only real criticism you can make of it as pure music in a film context is that when a film score suddenly quotes themes which are popular and highly associated with another franchise, you are ripped from one universe into another. People who don't give a shit about film scores will probably never notice, but it's still an issue; if a tree falls in the woods and there's nobody there to hear it, it DOES make a sound. Whether anybody hears it or not is immaterial; the tree fell, and the environment around it was affected.

Loving Kanno's music does not mean I cannot openly acknowledge the problems. To pretend she is perfect is fanboy mentality and I like to think this thread has risen above such frivolity.

Plagiarism is a note for note copy. She doesn't do this.

1. Wrong. Plagiarism is presenting as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source. Look it up in the dictionary.
2. That's the exact definition of what she DOES; note for note copies. That's not the ONLY form of her plagiarism, and ABSOLUTELY some of her "borrowings" easily fit into the category of "homage" rather than "theft" - but there is clearly a difference between drawing inspiration from another composer's style and simply copying great chunks of that composer's music into your own and pretending you wrote it. That a composer cannot or will not make the distinction, I find frankly terrifying.

Kanno is absolutely, categorically, and irrefutably guilty of Plagiarism with a capital P - and of all well-known composers working in this genre, hers is easily the most egregious.

Copyright companies haven't threw that hammer down on her so I guess maybe she isn't plagiarizing according to the law.

By that logic, nobody in this thread is guilty of copyright infringement since none of us have ever been imprisoned for the crime.

Cases of plagiarism infinitely milder than Kanno's have received heavy punishment. As with all of these "soft" crimes, it's all down to the luck of the draw; who you are, who catches you, what kind of mood they're in, what your relationship is with them, how badly your plagiarism is likely to harm your accuser, etc - all combine and contribute to you either getting sued or getting left alone.

A murder is still a murder, even if you are never caught. A theft is still a theft, even if you steal a lump of rotten wood from your neighbour's garden and sculpt it into a great work of art - and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. Often, I find Kanno's plagiarisms to show off the material she stole in a better light than the original - the Highlander example is particularly cogent here - it's a pretty naff score, badly recorded and played by a poor orchestra - Kanno took various passages and applied a sheen, gave them a context - which I believe allows those ideas to truly shine. With hindsight, we could almost say it would be a disservice to Robinson's music if Kanno had NOT appropriated it with such gusto and dramatic sense in Escaflowne. It doesn't mean I am going to pretend for one moment that it wasn't stolen and that Kanno's theft constituted, at the very least, a crime of morality.

On the Amano / Sagisu situation - a topic that has been beaten to death at least a thousand times in this thread but is resurrected time and time again.

Sagisu can orchestrate - just not to Amano's quality; unsurprising since Amano is trained and has decades of experience writing for orchestra and wind ensemble, and Sagisu is, by skill, a businessman and a pop arranger.

Sagisu hires Amano (well, Amano is hired to work on Sagisu's scores - it is probably a directive from the production company) because it is known that Amano's contribution will add value to the production that Sagisu alone simply lacks the skill to provide. On the surface, there is good synergy between the two composers and the results of their collaboration have, time and time again, proven popular with audiences and directors - and that popularity translates to soundtrack CD sales. The relationship which is fruitful will be cultivated. It's doubtless easy money for Amano - he can do this stuff in his sleep and he gets an all-expenses-paid trip to Warsaw every couple of years.

Nonetheless, in a Sagisu/Amano score we have varying examples where the quality of the music and the quality of the orchestration are not equal. As a general rule of thumb, as the quality gap closes (ie, the music is as good as the orchestration) the music also begins to take on more and more of Amano's established compositional devices. It sounds progressively less like any established style of Sagisu's (he DOES have one - a very recognisable one - but it doesn't in the slightest bit lend itself to this genre - hence the need for an interventionist orchestrator) and more like what we've come to expect from Amano. Amano's level of contribution differs from score to score and sometimes cue to cue - sometimes he is simply an orchestrator and nothing more, in the strictest sense of the word - and sometimes he is a little more interventionist, and sometimes he is clearly the creative force behind not only the orchestration, but the actual composition.

There are cues in Magi which have absolutely nothing of Sagisu in them except for a melody and sometimes some harmonic guidance. There are cues in Magi which even contain direct thefts from previous Amano scores - a quiet "message" from Amano that he wrote the music, or simply representative of the fact that he is himself a plagiarist. Either way, he wrote this stuff and the fact that passages from his previous scores are turning up in scores he allegedly only orchestrated is simple proof - proof that has been presented time and time again.

I like to cite "Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games" as an example of Amano the orchestrator - where he is manifestly not involved in the composition process:

https://youtu.be/gcZcWpU53GI?t=2m38s

The orchestration is plainly Amano through and through, but the music - in terms of construction, harmonies and harmonic movement, melody, and dramatic sensibility - is almost always not, and crucially the composer's style is completely present.

This score is Teruhiko Nakagawa, wearing Masamichi Amano's jacket. Most of the Sagisu/Amano scores are Masamichi Amano, wearing Shiro Sagisu's jacket - occasionally they are Masamichi Amano wearing Sagisu's jacket, trousers, hat, glasses, and beard - but this analogy is now moving into the bizarre, so I will end here. ;)

PonyoBellanote

02-06-2017, 10:28 PM

tangotreats

02-06-2017, 10:48 PM

:roflspock:

streichorchester

02-06-2017, 11:14 PM

We've discussed to death the ethics of plagiarism in scores. That's getting to be a stale topic. I only care about what was plagiarized because it offers insight into the compositional process and has historical significance. If we find that composers like Kanno or Horner are writing great music by imitating Prokofiev, for example, we should then look to see what is it about Prokofiev's music that inspired their creativity. Then perhaps we can look to newer composers such as Giacchino and surmise that their failures might be due to the fact they don't imitate Prokofiev.

That's just a theory I have. I often wonder if I would have discovered Prokofiev if I didn't read all the various posts online back in the late 90s raging against Horner. Maybe there are young composers reading these threads who are Kanno fans that have never heard of Prokofiev either and this is what piques their interest in classical music. At the very least the discussion should be educational.

Concerning Kanno's plagiarisms and inspirations specifically, we've likely just scratched the surface. I can only really identify the orchestral sources of many of her works. Other entities have found the sources of her pop/jazz/electronic music. I think in the end we'll find that each and every piece of hers might be derivative of another work because that's her process. Whether it's ethical or not isn't my concern. I would just like to know how she is so well informed about Western film music, especially the weird stuff like Highlander 3. How does a random track from James Horner's Ransom end up in Brainpowerd? Goldsmith's Omen in Escaflowne? Rosenman's Lord of the Rings in Turn A Gundam?

evilwurst

02-06-2017, 11:48 PM

I only care about what was plagiarized because it offers insight into the compositional process and has historical significance. If we find that composers like Kanno or Horner are writing great music by imitating Prokofiev, for example, we should then look to see what is it about Prokofiev's music that inspired their creativity.

Yeah. I don't think the people offended by Kanno's copying are asking for endless Gaye/Williams/Thicke-style lawsuits (which will never happen, because Kanno works in Japan, and it's a small slice of a small market, not worth trying to sue in Japanese court over as a foreigner). People are upset because of the lack of artistic credit. Uncredited copying hides good things, whereas crediting sources brings greater exposure to good things.

tangotreats

02-07-2017, 12:40 AM

Quite right. I think the reason I seem so happy to return to this topic, despite the fact that this exact same argument has been rumbling along for TEN YEARS on this forum and with many of the same participants, is that it presents me with interesting thought experiments.

An author could write a completely original, genuinely gripping, exciting novel, with a new plot, new characters, new scenarios, etc - and write almost the entire book by taking sentences from Shakespeare and stitching them together to form a narrative. On the other hand, an author could write a bloody terrible novel with a tired plot shamelessly borrowed from another book, stock characters, hackneyed scenarios - and write the entire book with entirely original prose. It forces one to think about cases where plagiarism can still be plagiarism, but it can be artistically worthwhile. The music that comes from Kanno's pen is exceptionally well constructed and arguably fills every requirement for being considered genuinely great music.

That, of course, presents its own question - one which I doubt will ever be definitively answered - in fact, two questions come to mind:

1. How can a composer have so much raw ability and evident love for the artform... but interrupt their magnum opus with randomly-inserted pages from a cheesy score from a terrible, cheap sci-fi movie? Kanno's music is never lazy, and it's always flawless in construction - so nobody could ever argue that she doesn't care.
2. As you (streich) have also mused, how can somebody who "never listens to other people's music" apparently know more film scores than every single person who ever posted in this thread COMBINED? How is it that this - an international club stuffed with film music lovers, classical music lovers, musicians, composers, and film buffs... even with pooled resources, cannot match Kanno's apparent encyclopedia of all music written by anyone anywhere?

As for your point about Prokofiev, and specifically these kind of situations inadvertently leading people to classical music - I'm sure that you're right and a lot of people today some to Prokofiev, Korngold, Holst, etc, by their frequent appropriation in film music. I know I did. Bizarrely, at the start of my interest in music, I had Bach on one side and film music on the other. I wouldn't go later than Beethoven - and yet I loved James Horner. I had no idea where to start; and then by chance I heard Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet on the radio a few hours after I'd watched Star Trek III on television, and my jaw dropped. That opened the floodgates and started me on my journey of musical discovery which continues to this day, some 25 years later.

Evilwurst has a good, and a sad, point - as a "leaping off point" to discover great things, it's wonderful but at the same time it's terrible; when it takes research and scavenger hunts (the sort at which this thread excels) to discover sources of inspiration... it is indeed hiding good things - at the very least, deliberately obfuscating where they came from making it harder to make discoveries.

I don't want lawsuits, and I definitely don't want Kanno in prison; all I want is more transparency - and above all, to understand. I know the musical culture in Japan is different but does not basic human decency not pass through the minds of composers when they get home from conducting a big orchesta for their big score for Super Robot Sexy Killer Girlfriend DX, cash their big cheque and get rave reviews for their great work... which "borrows" pages and pages of music somebody else wrote? Or is it a case of pure logic; the music already exists, by doing this my life is made easier and I can write a better score in the time alotted, so this is absolutely OK?

(I know Masamichi Amano, on Battle Royale, suffered from an insanely tight schedule and only through a mixture of desperation and theft managed to fling together a score at the last minute - and by his great skill in the medium, it was a really splendid score.

Interesting questions, all very relevant I feel. :)

amish

02-07-2017, 01:01 AM

for Amano geeks (his recent work)

Masamichi Amano
Koto (little rabbit), Vol. 2 for wind ensemble
小兎巻の弐 -笙、篳篥、箏、ウインドアンサンブルの為の-
mp3 (https://mega.nz/#!tJRhjQqB!GRuqI-CzVhfl8jLvzzkul55EF2xYm2NgjpmCBQiqvtc)

and Yamashitans

Kousuke Yamashita
Like Sand Like A Star Like Fireworks 砂のように星のように花火のように
mp3 (https://mega.nz/#!EYYQEbqQ!wr8Z-vYlr3ilSFAN5IZRsVweNoTQ-1KK74hrLeG0k6s)

JASDF Central Band (BAND ISHIN 2016)

Sirusjr

02-07-2017, 01:02 AM

Perhaps the composers in this thread can enlighten me on this, but what makes Tango and others so sure that this is intentional copying and not simply something that happens when composers write music, they subconsciously write passages that mimic other composers style? Aside from clear note for note copying of themes which happens less regularly, why does stylistic similarity equal intentional copying?

amish

02-07-2017, 01:04 AM

YOSHIHIRO Kanno collection - Angel's Egg -

1985 Angel's Egg
天使のたまご [soundtrack]

mp3(Mirror) (https://mega.nz/#!Acg0nZKK!r1puPE6GmwhdWDGDnNXDzUpSpiQvkz26mI5yyTBhYkQ)

1991 aspirazioni e sogni di Firenze
フィレンツェの夢と憧れ [soundtrack]

mp3 (https://mega.nz/#!sAJDxKID!_x82-WK3tbHjkdl85AT9XsIFbB_DWN4j0iX0omDwuA0)

1993 Homura Tatsu / The Fire Still Burns
炎立つ [soundtrack, NHK Taiga Drama]
http://img4.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/23568/23568954fa74a8b45d3963c60607ca853bdda255.jpghttp://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/23568/23568955bf4769fbfe643030e0dc7a71bede7601.jpg
FLAC_1 (https://mega.nz/#!dYAUzbrA!oUU2TncBjqt3F0ZyfDKzPCa9yIMAowZdcldE9wzXCto) / 2 (https://mega.nz/#!9Uow2boK!X7_vlp-hyOsjbSeyZ4nKs-Kx9h89WL62ATiupCPNNu8)

1994 Gusko Budori no Denki / The Life of Gusko Budori
グスコーブドリの伝記 [soundtrack]

FLAC (https://mega.nz/#!hQ5gyQbJ!BD2kRrwQ8QYZZ0jRvqsbbZkzhkzCAUH-xMK_tmFRyxE)

1995 canvas on the wave
波のキャンバス世界美術館めぐり [soundtrack]

FLAC (https://mega.nz/#!VAwlRDgR!PB52DmE3ifem3rmwXIDWlCjJzBu51uYEps1fOA4u5UU)

---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ----------

1991 RESOUNDING SPHERE I - Extinction of a Star - Works by Yoshihiro Kanno
RESOUNDING SPHERE I 星の死

1. String Quartet
2. Extinction of a Star _ for Vioin and Piano
3. Transparent Mirror _ for Harp
4. Tapestry I _ with voices of Shomyo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dmy%C5%8D)
FLAC (https://mega.nz/#!gQgDmToJ!-RCwqeGB6wxcNaYMZNRPc-yub3RuDZeFfI4T9VNm52U)

1993 RESOUNDING SPHERE II
RESOUNDING SPHERE II 砂の都市

1. City of Sand in a Labyrinth _ for Soprano, Synthesizer, Piano and Two Percussions
2. Timeless Bells in the Wind _ for Violin and Percussion
3. The Remains of the Light I _ for Piano
4. Les Temps des Miriors _ Electronic Music with Ryuteki and Sho
FLAC (https://mega.nz/#!BI4FlaIY!w8l9IceQYgvXVlklyPBzK2pyrnMN8ZRBl9VHxVS5aJU)

1999 RESOUNDING SPHERE III
RESOUNDING SPHERE III 崩壊の神話

1-14. KUMO(Spider) for Orchestra and Gagaku instruments
Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra / Reigakusha
15-17. A Mythical Implosion for Orchestra
NHK Symphony Orchestra
FLAC (https://mega.nz/#!dEAjzYBC!TxTfb9NLGYbwvpjYjuaefRLqIb8aGEwkApY0MJDwj30)

2015 Light, Water, Rainbow
Piano: Noriko Ogawa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noriko_Ogawa_(pianist))

1. The Remains of the Light III -Angel's Ladder-
2. A Particle of Light
3. A Particle of Water
4. A Particle of Rainbow
5. Lunar Rainbow
6. Angel's Egg - Prelude
mp3 (https://mega.nz/#!IYp1jQAC!WTYOd-abLVgJxS11w3O7UGGS_FEIChVERk2uCp9RH4A)

Sirusjr

02-07-2017, 01:18 AM

Well Intrada's release is Ducktales the Movie. Something sounds off with the music though. Despite being described by Intrada as a recording for large orchestra I just don't hear it.

PonyoBellanote

02-07-2017, 01:32 AM

Well Intrada's release is Ducktales the Movie. Something sounds off with the music though. Despite being described by Intrada as a recording for large orchestra I just don't hear it.

I'm so happy! Finally, a CD release, FULL of the movie! That is not the shitty bootleg! Finally we get to hear it in good quality..

Now I need to wait til it's out.. :)

HunterTech

02-07-2017, 01:49 AM

We get it, you hate some composers everyone else adores, you're a hipster, want a cookie? Was that even neccesary, really? Does it make you feel better to rant so much about how you're so right and everyone is wrong? :P

Um, nowhere in that particular "rant" does it feel like he's claiming superiority over everyone. Sure, the opinion can be very aggressively pushed at points, but that it. Besides, I'm pretty sure ZipperBoy and his "Kanno stole shit LOL" statements are more like what you describe. Just accept that some people naturally have the attitude they do.

PonyoBellanote

02-07-2017, 01:53 AM

HunterTech

02-07-2017, 02:19 AM

That's okay, I'm not censoring anybody, it's just, the 20th time he says it, and always in the overall "I am right and you are not" attitude.. to me, at least. Like, we get the idea. I don't even hear Kanno that much so I'm not defending her either.

I'd be more keen to agree if we also didn't keep repeating the same shit elsewhere as well. I'd just accept it at this point and move on. Hell, you can find value in their words if you see something in them like I have.

MastaMist

02-07-2017, 03:31 AM

New Mina Kubota NHK Album dropped. http://hikarinoakariost.info/mina-kubota-nhk-works/

The Zipper

02-07-2017, 04:45 AM

Besides, I'm pretty sure ZipperBoy and his "Kanno stole shit LOL" statements are more like what you describe. Just accept that some people naturally have the attitude they do. Claiming that someone steals something is asserting superiority? I'm not one to openly insult people but your statement is more stupid and ignorant than a sack of rocks. How hard do you project yourself onto Kanno? If you want to make a point then defend your own argument, not throw out some passive aggressive remarks to "one-up" me. I was neither the first to start this argument nor the one to end it. In fact, my claims were more on point with Kanno using ghostwriters- most of the plagiarism claims, even if I agree with them, did not start with me. If you insist on picking a bone with me just because you don't like my words, go ahead. I'm not the first person to insult someone in this argument either, but if you want to continue playing that game, go ahead.

The fact that we are even talking about this after the argument had already been finished is completely stupid. Right now you look the same to me as any butthurt Sawano or Kajiura fanboy after their idol has been criticized. You really can't let things go, can you?

Maybe I should start talking more about the GREATNESS of Zimmer in this thread. Cause yeah, we're all SO SICK of hearing incorrect negative things about him, right?

(And for the record, I do actually unironically enjoy Zimmer quite a bit sometimes ;))

HunterTech

02-07-2017, 05:42 AM

Um, I didn't even care about the argument at hand, considering I have no experience with Kanno or any of the work brought up to argue properly. I was merely commenting on how I wasn't really a big fan of the tone you chose for the subject and that was it. Your words could very easily be legit, but like Tango months ago, I merely just read the tone of the words. And for that, I don't intend to argue any further, considering I have no real say on the matter. Nor am I gonna keep insulting someone for having a different attitude than I. It would just be really silly.

Hell, I have no real reason to be here. As much as I can like some scores and cues, I'm just not that much of a fan of orchestral scores yet. I'm more in the mood of the general music at the moment, having gone through more famous artists of popular music. Granted, there are orchestral bits in what I listen to that I become incredibly intrigued. But, for whatever reason, it doesn't end up transcending beyond background noise. Part of that might be poor choice in composer (Zimmer and his cohorts come to mind), or works that only work with the media they're made for. But, if you ask me what I would listen to, orchestral music would be low on the list.

So I guess the better and more positive way to shift this conversation is perhaps might be orchestral works that could be more suited for a good introduction. I'd be very open, especially with what I've been listening to recently (the last thing listened being a 60 minutes progressive rock piece that goes in many different directions).

The Zipper

02-07-2017, 05:54 AM

Fair enough, I thought you were on the other side of the argument.

The tone of my arguments tends to match those of the people who reply to me. In the case of this argument, everyone on both sides was very heated. I don't see how anything about my tone was any different from people I argued with like Tango and MastaMist. Except in Kenji's case- I probably did go too far with Sagisu, but that's mainly because I've always hated Sagisu himself with a passion.

Whatever the case, I'm tired of this Kanno argument. At this point everyone has already long made up their mind about how they feel about her. That being said, if you reply to me, I will reply back in kind. I think that's how it goes for most of the posters here, and why this argument went on as long as it did with so many people.

nextday

02-07-2017, 06:36 AM

Thank you everyone for the recent shares: tango for the symphony, Vinphonic for the Hirano, JBarron for the arrange album, etc.

I will have a new CD to share later this week.

TazerMonkey

02-07-2017, 06:57 AM

Erich Wolfgang Korngold, 1937. (https://youtu.be/v86IrGT0ugk)

Erich Wolfgang Korngold, 1945. (https://youtu.be/DsUnpsRWgWk) Self-plagiarism, used in a new context. Some might consider this creative cannibalism, but who gives a shit if it's good?

Yoko Kanno, 2005 (in 2010 concert suite with shitty sound, sorry). (https://youtu.be/buCcOB5ZzA0?t=3m37s) Plagiarism, as in the main melody is a direct lift. Comes right after a blatant homage to Ride of the Valkyries and god knows what else. Beautiful, yes. Perfectly executed, yes. But most definitely not original. Sure it's not EXACTLY the same, but... c'mon. Such a direct lift, for such a sustained treatment? Absolutely not an accident. I'd be lying if I didn't say I prefer this version to the original (but not the VC).

I love that melody. I love that hearing it through Kanno made me fall in love with it. I love it more that through discussion in this thread I discovered the Korngold concerto and fell in love with its more full elaboration there. I don't give a fuck about The Prince and the Pauper.

All love, no hatred. Merely the facts, no more and no less.

We live in the postmodern age anyway. Everything is a rip-off/reference to something else.

(And for the record, I do actually unironically enjoy Zimmer quite a bit sometimes ;))

To paraphrase Pauline Kael, scores are so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash we have very little reason to be interested in them.

The Zipper

02-07-2017, 07:06 AM

To paraphrase Pauline Kael, scores are so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash we have very little reason to be interested in them.Okay, lots of "love" for Zimmer, I see. :P

Yeah, when it all comes down to it, it's just a matter of what people like and don't like and how far they're willing to defend it. If I were as passionate about Zimmer like some of these Kanno fans I would have tore you a new asshole by now.

I'm curious now, what Golden or Silver Age composer do you guys honestly think could have scored Inception better than Zimmer?

TazerMonkey

02-07-2017, 07:28 AM

If I were as passionate about Zimmer like some of these Kanno fans I would have tore you a new asshole by now.

For clarification, that quote isn't hostile towards Zimmer at all. I was agreeing with you.

The Zipper

02-07-2017, 07:41 AM

"great trash" is not something I think most people would interpret as not being hostile. ;)

I understand what you mean though.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who want to get an idea of the claustrophobia of Japanese recording studios, take a look at this (though I'm sure most of you are aware of it):

http://popoyumi.web.fc2.com/index/hataraku_occhan/studio20/studio20.htm

Also features short clips of Akifumi Tada, Taku Iwasaki, and Kohei Tanaka conducting, unfortunately we can't hear any of the music because this was published before their shows were aired. Imagine having to spend hours recording different ensembles separately just to mix together later due to lack of space instead of knocking it all out in a 2-hour session with a large western symphony orchestra.

Unsurprisingly Iwasaki is specific on how he wants each individual instrument to sound, as shown with his instructing the violinist.

tangotreats

02-07-2017, 12:51 PM

Wow, that's a fascinating blog - thank you!

The domestic recording method provides control, and I can imagine some composers (like Iwasaki) would prefer it on the whole as they would find it easier to communicate directly with members of the orchestra. Of course, if they're going to Poland or wherever, they would have translators... but I imagine there is frustration at not being able to go up to the instrumentalist in question and directly address him in a language which is native to you both. Being able to refer to previous sessions, bounce ideas off each other in a spontaneous way that just isn't possible when you're working through a translator.

Unfortunately, it falls short in every other way; ensemble size is traditionally smaller. Session length is longer because everything is recorded in in multiple passes and digitally mixed together later on. Sound quality is impaired because the studios are so small and so tightly filled that recordings feature very little room ambience - so ambience must be electronically created in the mixing booth - and since the recording is done in pieces there is no sense of presence; just a load of closely-miked instruments all playing at once. Japanese musician's fees are high - studio time is expensive, and engineers are expensive.

It is scary to see pictures of these studios when they're filled to capacity. One imagines people getting their eyes poked out by the bows of violins and being clubbed over the head by a trombone or a tuba. I bet that if anybody got the raw session tapes of, say, Super Mario Galaxy, about half of it would be music and the other half would be *BANG!* "Ow!", "Sorry!", *SMASH*, "Whoops!", *BONG!* "AAAARGH MY HEAD!", "Excuse me!", "Look where you're f****g going with that harp!"

The recording rooms are not fit for purpose.

Wouldn't you just hate to be the guy doing the percussion overdubs late at night after everybody's gone home. Thirty bars of rest, brrrrrrRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrr on the timpani, thirty bars of rest, crash cymbals, thirty bars of rest, THUMP on the bass drum, ta, tatata tatata tatata tatata on the snares, then you go home.

Going abroad and recording a score like a concert work - everybody goes into a large room, the engineer hits "record", they play, and they go home - is a completely different kettle of fish. I can understand how it wouldn't appeal to a composer like Iwasaki, who likes to micromanage every aspect of a production.

Vinphonic

02-07-2017, 12:59 PM

@HunterTech

Well, in media scoring there's the distinction between certain musical eras, you could even call them orchestral genres: Golden Age Era, Silver Age Era and now Rising Sun Era as I like to call it. I think nothing is more approachable than western silver age film scores. Heck Star Wars mesmerized me as a child and put me on the path of studying music and composition (what I learned are things no one wants anymore sadly). But back to topic, better start with Main Themes, Overtures and End Credits of various western silver age film scores from at least 20 years back, nearly everything was good stuff back then:

Silver Age Era

Alan Silvestri: Back to the Future (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-_-rS6J4a0&list=PL5S3of6ww7vKQ5vLAMZpzztsatqT0hu9v)

John Williams: Throne Room (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDaPOWdx6s)

John Williams: Imperial March (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8)

John Williams: Jurassic Park (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCBG5TsEGh4)

John Williams: Flight to Neverland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5H0sCdvZ14)

Jerry Goldsmith: First Contact (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOajzx-W1rI)

John Williams: Indiana Jones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bTpp8PQSog)

John Williams: Superman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI)

Howard Shore: The Road Goes Ever On (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y_BE5yxQjw&list=PL99D96766C5C05441&index=36)

James Horner: Star Trek II (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZaIP4t-F-Y)

James Horner: Braveheart (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7vyTv8C20#t=01h10m40s)

Elmer Bernstein: Magnificent Seven (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XDB7GMnbUQ)

John Barry: John Dubar Theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHvKviaeulg)

James Horner: The Ludlows (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxZeisCHv8)

Don Davis: Neodammerung (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjFDLGhtGIk)

Elliot Goldenthal: Victorious Titus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tAT_A71WOs)

Bill Conti: Rocky Theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I4JR8t5tAg)

Bill Conti: The Right Stuff (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCKZFJjiU38&index=4&list=PL5S3of6ww7vKQ5vLAMZpzztsatqT0hu9v)

Golden Age Era

Erich Wolfgang Korngold: Kings Row (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJwa9mX0bxA)

Erich Wolfgang Korngold: The Sea Hawk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-RPzAbW7No)

Miklos Rozsa: Ben Hur (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueS07YbMeUw)

Max Steiner: Gone With the Wind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9OTPwvxVA)

Patrick Doyle: Potter Waltz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8jTGWkQRHo)

Ron Goodwin: Squadron 633 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1cc-TTIw3o)

Maurice Jarre: Lawrence of Arabia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdFwhhH2x7I)

Ennio Morricone: Once Upon a Time in the West (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibRMQjGzagY)

Bernard Herrmann (The Iwasaki of his time): Citizen Kane Aria (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7ZUNJ6GSIc)

Carl Davis: Champions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn3ykYqHj9k)

Leigh Harline and Ned Washington: When you wish upon a Star (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9rYgqh9PWU) (sound familiar to a certain Japanese composer ;))

Ron Goodwin: Valhalla (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBpgB-3inM) (Yes, once upon a time cartoons sounded like this...)

Rising Sun Era

Kohei Tanaka: Miracle Bells (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoCJMy2Fg0E)

Kohei Tanaka: Final Curtain! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueOzr7sOdgA&index=40&list=PL60XuKNkdZxrdu7BonUW3YzGEPahr5CnX)

Kohei Tanaka: Gravity Rush 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xh1yvJNBSE)

Toshihiko Sahashi: Take Off (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcNxnY0TgmM)

Toshihiko Sahashi: The Symphony (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDkRThVEiuI&index=10&list=PL405596A0CE7BCDAA)

Yoko Kanno: First Love Final Love (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmeNa_BiZb4)

Yoko Kanno: Major's Minuet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmJGR1gBNbU)

Katsuro Tajima: Razgriz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py9zOYngt2g)

Katsuro Tajima: King of Kings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M06aDKSgK5o)

Naoki Sato: K20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igJFZov8XcY)

Naoki Sato: Beginning of the Adventure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrK0NmBetig)

Michiru Oshima: The Way Home
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8OaiTN1K0E)
Michiru Oshima: Reminiscence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkoJOvwYffw)

Michiru Oshima: Chariots Theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg-oV3NoVQ8)

Masamichi Amano: Magie et Sorcellerie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6M71-FVRuk)

Masamichi Amano: La Bataille pour Doldrey (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpXl7XUiUkY&list=PL-1iCCtG8X0a6hn_jZOk0kAj_2OV4OG9X&index=5)

Joe Hisaish: Ni no Kuni (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9L-QzakeiM)

Joe Hisaishi: Ponyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sef0PKDqvXk)

tangotreats

02-07-2017, 01:06 PM

Masamichi Amano: Magie et Sorcellerie
Masamichi Amano: La Bataille pur Doldrey

You is troooooooollin. ;)

The Zipper

02-07-2017, 01:27 PM

Of course, if they're going to Poland or wherever, they would have translators... but I imagine there is frustration at not being able to go up to the instrumentalist in question and directly address him in a language which is native to you both. Being able to refer to previous sessions, bounce ideas off each other in a spontaneous way that just isn't possible when you're working through a translator. I just now remembered- doesn't Amano speak Polish? He would have to in order to do all that conducting himself in Warsaw. That's some real dedication right there.

Leigh Harline and Ned Washington: When you wish upon a Star (sound familiar to a certain Japanese composer
I'm actually stumped on this one. Kanno, Iwasaki, and Senju have all written similar sounding music to this before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF89u9RPDdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTmU27e36Uw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpD9NT0jUZs

tangotreats

02-07-2017, 01:47 PM

He's probably picked up a fair bit over the years - he's even adopted the Polish transliteration of his name, so there's obviously some personal interest. I doubt he's fluent, but he's probably got enough to manage the limited vocabulary of an orchestral recording session.

I expect they still hire translators when he goes over, but you're right, he must have *some* ability with the language. (Or at least with English - the Polish players probably have basic professional English as they work with so many international conductors, and Amano must have some too as he works frequently in London.)

The Zipper

02-07-2017, 02:14 PM

I went back to look at Herr Salat's conducting videos from the last page and well, who knew he already had this on his channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBnFzz9vtOY

I don't know if he's fluent- but it definitely looks like Amano knows enough Polish to communicate directly with the orchestra. Very impressive.

nextday

02-07-2017, 03:33 PM

Wow, that's a fascinating blog - thank you!
It's Yumiko Yamamoto's blog. I'm not exactly sure how it came to be. She doesn't work in the music industry and isn't a producer.

In 15 years she has reported on 560 (and counting) different recordings for anime, dramas, and films. She's also done interviews with composers such as Hayato Matsuo and Kaoru Wada. It's an invaluable resource.

Edit: I was checking Twitter and saw that Natsumi Kameoka was in Prague earlier this week for a recording. So now there's two secret overseas recordings by Kameoka (the other being London in November 2015).

Vinphonic

02-08-2017, 03:52 AM

Excellent news! I hope we will soon learn what's up with them. Let's pray it doesn't turn out like Amano's Saint Seiya Online...

Tracklist for Gravity Daze 2 is up... and so far the 4CDs are arranged in chronological order as heared in the game... but there's FOUR mysterious tracks after the last credit piece that have names that at least open up the possibility of something similar to his Bastard movements... keeping my fingers crossed it's not some unused mock-ups.

hater

02-08-2017, 04:13 AM

is the hekesville music also on the four cd set? even if the four mysterious tracks are not something incredible, the rest of the score is more than enough.totally in love with the game and the score, about to start chapter 21.one of the games that isn�t finished after the end credits.i am so going to buy this set.fingers crossed for a gravity daze symphony.oh yeah.

Vinphonic

02-08-2017, 04:47 AM

Yes, all on disc 3. Sometimes I wonder if there are actual Japanese laws that forbid the simple copy-paste of previously recorded music for a sequel or spin-off :D

Oh yes, that "ending" ;)

A "symphony" of sorts is already confirmed. A JAPAN Studio symphony concert will be held in may with Gravity Daze 1+2 (main event), Shadow of the Colossus, Last Guardian, Intelligent Cube, Wild Arms and more (what a programme!). But a cd release is unlikely.

BrinkFlip

02-08-2017, 02:49 PM

Thanks for the Niigaki, Tango. Very nice.

Does anybody know if Super Robot Wars V is getting a score release? I've been looking forward to it since that teaser was released last year.

Yugo Kanno's Symphony No.1 "The Border" was released today. I'm hoping for something good from that after his very forgettable 2016.

nextday

02-08-2017, 03:52 PM

Yugo Kanno's Symphony No.1 "The Border" was released today. I'm hoping for something good from that after his very forgettable 2016.
Keep an eye on this thread tomorrow. ;)

BrinkFlip

02-09-2017, 02:08 AM

Keep an eye on this thread tomorrow. ;)

Will do :)

The Zipper

02-09-2017, 08:38 AM

Stumbled upon this talk between Mancini and Barry in the 60's- many of you already know this but Mancini's popularity made him the Hans Zimmer of his heydey and many other composers had quite the axe to grind with him because they had to imitate him (Herrmann in particular- Mancini's popularity on the film music scene was one of the main reasons he and Hitchcock got into the career-shattering mess of Torn Curtain).

http://www.johnbarry.org.uk/index.php/writings/press-articles/item/329-john-barry-and-henry-mancini-in-conversation

It's amazing how this mini rant from him half a century ago can still be applied to today, especially with the aforementioned Zimmer and his clones.

Let me tell you how new ideas really hit the Hollywood music scene. All of a sudden there's a new box, and new category of music, and underneath it is the name Barry, and next to it is another one with the name Mancini. Now you take one of these producers we've been talking about. He can only work, in terms of music, from what's gone before, from his experi*ence. So he suddenly turns round to his writers and says "What I want is this Barry sound" or it might be "this Mancini sound." He knows what that is - that's his fortress. Fellows come up to me and say "You sonofabitch - see what you've done to me. See what they've asked me to do" We become villains, in a kind of a way, because non-thinking producers are trying to get other fellows to imitate our achievements, saying "I want the music like it was in Thunderball," or "like it was in Hatari" because they happen to have an African movie, and that's what 'Hatari' was. And in the same way, all the Bond type pictures have taken their musical form from what John did.

Of course nowadays most serious film music fans consider Mancini on par with all the rest of the other Golden Age greats, but this wasn't the case back then. Likewise, I think Zimmer's true worth as a composer can only be judged 20 years from now, when he and his clones no longer dominate the music scene.

Vinphonic

02-09-2017, 01:49 PM

1. During the Golden Age you had to have at least basic composition and orchestration skills to even work on a film and most composers of that era had a classical education and worked on the sidelines as concert composers. The fundamentals of music were still the same, even if they were told to rip each other off.

2. The music they imitated was actually timeless music from the start, meaning they were told to imitate music that has certain patterns, rythms AND MELODIES!!!! attributed to long-lasting quality of a musical piece. Music of the Golden and Silver Age was written to emphasize the emotion and story on screen. A practice applied from opera and theater. When a character on screen was feeling conflicted and sad the music REALLY reflected that. A fundamental difference to Zimmer's approach of providing a "musical wallpaper", a generation of moods and experimental sound that serve the picture. It's a valid approach to film scoring, but a less effective method in many genres and styles and one that I believe generates no long-lasting appeal whatsoever, even taking into account that Zimmer defined an entire era of Hollywood music.

3. Even though you could view this era right now as the downfall of classic film music writing, I see it more as a symptom of the downfall of Hollywood itself. I've said it before but Hollywood was first and foremost a refugee haven for persecuted artists and intellectuals in the 20th century. They created art. Turning a profit was always relevant but it was turning a profit through the art, not turning a profit for profit's sake. Today it's all a business for generating profit. Art can still come out of it, but more as a byproduct and it's becoming more and more rare. I see myself listenting to Zimmer's Silver Age period in the future (Backdraft is good music) but I just don't see myself listening to Dark Knight or Man of Steel in 20 years, at best one track with a vibe I like.

A very interesting point on this topic from the FSM board (I don't know if it's from one of us though):

Mink: "The issue I have with Rogue One has absolutely nothing to do with Michael's capabilities but is more generally related to the state of film music today and in this case the studio's obvious intention for the music's role in the movie.

I (and that is my sole personal opinion) have the impression that the score has absolutely no emotional subtext to it whatsoever but is simply reproducing what you see on the screen. The feelings of the characters, the one thing that film music can actually bring to a film (despite the obvious accentuation of the direct action on screen) is totally absent in the score in my opinion.

SPOILER AHEAD: One of the prime examples is the death of Jyn's mother in the opening scene. There's only a very quick moment of shock right when she gets shot, but the music instantly switches back to a more generic and neutral mood. The low point for me being the cut to Mads Mikkelsen's character, holding his dead wife in his arms with a look of sheer anger and despair on his face, when the music is simply playing some action rhythm that then further accentuates young Jyn running to her hideout. There's nothing to express the feelings of a man losing his wife or a young child losing his mother and then having to run away all alone from her home into an unknown future. Instead we get generic action music more underlining the actions of the death troopers destroying the farm and looking for the girl.

And that’s really how the whole score plays I think. Where there should be emotional subtext to a scene, there’re just endless ostinato without accentuating anything really.

Again, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think it has anything to do with Giacchino's abilities as a composer, but merely with what Disney wanted t for the film: “Don’t make it to emotional or scary, kids will need to watch it without starting to cry.”

I think it’s just a prime example of how the writing for movies has changed nowadays and is very much geared towards textural effect and enhancing of the image, as opposed to creating a dual intensity by linking the music with the characters of the drama.

It’s a shame because the film could’ve really benefited from a more serious score. I would’ve wished for something that sets it apart a bit more from the other STAR WARS movies and makes it stand on his own feet musically. But of course I can also understand the direction people wanted to take this."

This is the reason Burning Homestead is "burned" into people's memories while watching and/or listening to STAR WARS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTKHZN8c2L8

The music expresses Luke's emotion more than anything: Omnious feeling of danger -> Rushing "sense of danger" -> sad realization -> shock -> internal turmoil -> determination -> cut to the cause of his turmoil

Also notice how brilliant the music was used as "an additional editor", transitioning scenes and locations. Something you only get with scoring to picture, also a lost art.

This difference in quality separates certain pop eras and their disappearance from a collective consciousness while Beethoven and Mozart are still present in peoples live, subconscious or open.

nextday

02-09-2017, 07:24 PM

Yugo Kanno
Symphony No.1 ‘‘The Border’’

The Kansai Philharmonic Orchestra
Conducted by Sachio Fujioka

Ripped, etc. by nextday.

I. Dive into myself (Excerpt) (http://picosong.com/rGTv/) http://i.imgur.com/v9WfOyB.gif

Download: https://anon.click/kuvuf48

This is the first symphony written by Yugo Kanno, known for composing the music for anime such as Psycho-Pass and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Clocking in at 43 minutes in total, this work is far more tonal than the trombone concerto (Thread 163447) he wrote in 2013, though it is still very much contemporary music. Much like his drama themes, for each movement he takes a simple composition and expands it into a lengthy piece. It's pretty typical Kanno overall. Nothing too complex, nothing too risky. The music probably would have worked better if it was more condensed, but anything shorter and you couldn't really call it a symphony. All in all, I'd say it's an improvement over his previous concert work but still nothing to call home about.

tangotreats

02-10-2017, 10:04 AM

Nextday,

Thank you for the Kanno symphony! I've been looking forward to this for some time.

As for the piece itself, it's no symphony... but I'm actually really enjoying it. You're right, nothing complex or risky or innovative, and showing several signs of over-extending an idea past the capabilities of a composer, but it's easy listening, pleasant, and tuneful. It's unusual that a composer of (predominantly) happy Sunday morning drama themes is now regularly writing concert music, and still more unusual that he's doing so in a style almost identical to that which made him famous. He has a fairly substantial musical education, and can orchestrate quite well, but writes orchestral music with the internal "pulse" of pop music. An enigma - but an interesting one.

It is indeed substantially based on themes from Cain And Abel - the third movement is mainly the love theme from the series. The Japanese "music is music" ethic at play again; perhaps another signpost that explains why crappy Japanese productions - late night anime, kids' trash, etc - often get good music with a lavish budget.

On that subject, Kousuke Yamashita's FOURTH Super Sentai score - Uchu Sentai Kyuranger - will debut this Sunday. I am hoping for Gokaiger rather than Ninninger - the theme of this year's show is space travel, so there is a fair bit of potential for a good sci-fi score here, though we will have to wait. I have heard the recent movie score, co-composed by Yamashita and Kameyama, but which sounds 90% Kameyama, so it's difficult to discern how Kyuranger will sound... but it's Yamashita, so we know it's not going to be BAD. :)

Vinphonic

02-10-2017, 12:41 PM

I suscribe that it's an enjoyable listen and worth the money but I'm somehow reminded of certain media composers venturing into the concert realm and falling short... I honestly expected something more substantial.

News: So Haikyu!! gets an orchestra concert... what?

Seeing all these concerts emerge and most for music that needs a good/great arranger to even work in that context makes me sad that this developement didn't happen during Sahashi's Anime Era. I'm pretty sure if Simoun was released today, it would get a stageplay and concert in no time... :(

And on the subject of Hayashi... bye bye Precure.

Happy to report that the choral piece from Konosuba 2 was not a fluke. There's a genuine fantasy score recorded for this comedy. Koda keeps on growing.

HOLY HELL... Tanaka confirmed for April... the most promising spring season in years even before he joined.

tangotreats

02-10-2017, 12:54 PM

Has there ever been such a quality drop from season to season of a show, that's solely related to a change in composer?

Even when there's a transparent attempt to write something that screams out "Precure" the absence of Takaki's classical tendencies stick out like a sore thumb.

Vinphonic

02-10-2017, 01:19 PM

I would be lamenting it if Maho Girls was not a fantastic finale (musically) for the franchise. I'm fine with letting it go. We've had four seasons of Takanashi (I genuinely enjoyed many tracks) so a jump from quality is not unusual. But you're right, what is frustrating is that Hayashi sticks not to his forte (wacky Jazz) but desparately tries to mimic Takaki and just falls flat on his face. The sorry use of brass (or the absence of it at key moments to be precise) is definetely noticable.

But it's a good example of the difference in having knowledge in digital music production and just having a general idea of what orchestral music is vs centuries-old-tried-and-true musical education (from an institution).
In a world of reason he would not be anywhere near a real orchestra (but then again, I could say this about pretty much 50% of media composers today). Sample libraries exist for this reason. They have become so convincing this decade that I wish they would all sit in front of their DAWs all day and leave the musicians and orchestral recording staff alone. That would safe everyone time, ressources and money. I just hope this all means that Takaki will take on "serious" projects now. Who knows... isn't the LotGH remake this year?

BrinkFlip

02-10-2017, 08:55 PM

Yugo Kanno
Symphony No.1 ‘‘The Border’’

Having been reading this thread for a while I think that, despite his sometimes frustrating traits, I tend to enjoy Yugo Kanno's music a little more than most, so I'm excited to hear this. Thank you!

nextday

02-11-2017, 10:34 AM

Tanaka confirmed for April... the most promising spring season in years even before he joined.
Tanaka wrote the music for the original series which aired 28 years ago. That soundtrack was not released. He says that some of his original music has been re-recorded for this new series.

He also says on his blog that he has a "big title" in the works, but can't announce anything yet. It's interesting to see Tanaka taking on so many new projects recently. He turns 63 on the 14th, and yet he's still working as hard as ever.

tangotreats

02-11-2017, 01:08 PM

I would be lamenting it if Maho Girls was not a fantastic finale (musically) for the franchise. I'm fine with letting it go. We've had four seasons of Takanashi (I genuinely enjoyed many tracks) so a jump from quality is not unusual. But you're right, what is frustrating is that Hayashi sticks not to his forte (wacky Jazz) but desparately tries to mimic Takaki and just falls flat on his face. The sorry use of brass (or the absence of it at key moments to be precise) is definetely noticable.

It's just deeply depressing that, after having a taste of Takaki, someone decided that Hayashi would've been a good choice. If they had intended a complete change in the style of the show's music and they thought Hayashi was the best person for that job, I'd get it... but they obviously didn't want a change at all as Hayashi's score lurches between complete nothingness and shamefully poor, low budget impersonations of Takaki. Oh, well - you're right, of course... we have been blessed with good scores by Takaki and if this leads to him doing other projects I will be very, very happy.

Now... the following, I have deliberately worded very carefully to comply with forum rules. Feel free to send me a personal message if you have any questions that you feel I could answer.

If you remember, a few months ago, there was some discussion about the four volumes of Joseph LoDuca's Hercules television scores, released by the Label Which Shall Not Be Named. I was able to buy all four CDs for a good price, and I have made high quality FLAC rips of them all and scanned the booklets for my own personal use.

The Zipper

02-11-2017, 09:43 PM

Hayashi's style reminds me of Sawano in his pre-Unicorn days with Cyber Formula, unsurprisingly since they both came from Legendoor. It's technically not great orchestral sound, but it has its own distinctiveness. I would put him in the same category as Yugo Kanno.

Vinphonic

02-11-2017, 10:23 PM

Yugo Kanno:

-Graduated from one of the greatest musical institution on the planet

-Wrote numerous chorales, waltzes, symphonic suites, even if repetitive

-Wrote a competent Warsaw score for a full symphony orchestra

-Held numerous concerts with classical flair

-Can conduct and orchestrate his own music

-Wrote numerous killer themes you can hum in the bath

-Even if it's not a full-fleshed symphony, he is right now part-time concert composer

-Has a great sense of melody

-Established a musical company full of promising talent that wants to write music like and I quote "John Williams" one day

-Can do at least technically competent film score, classical, jazz, rock, edm and more

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnU5OUme9Rs&index=31&list=PL7bwIieUCQQS_wN1GL11qn78itU59NZIQ

Yuki Hayashi:

- Athlete, no formal music education (yet)

- Education in "beatmaking" and digital recording

- His forte is making music for dancesport (One of the reasons Ballroom could be interesting)

- Can do competent rock and jazz and orchestral hybrids that get your blood bumping (but that's it).

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ5IfryrCVs

Yugo is not among my absolute favorite media composers but I feel he does not deserve to be put in the same category as Hayashi. Granted Hayashi is better than many other Sawano clones, and especially Yokoyama, but he's hardly someone to look forward to if you want an orchestral score. I would take Kanno over him any day. Remember, the guy wrote Birdy Decode, he has some spark in him ;)

MastaMist

02-12-2017, 12:05 AM

Hayashi is basically Sawano-lite, the same way I see Kato as Iwasaki-lite. As a fan of Sawano, I don't honestly see the point of going for a diet version of the guy that lacks the heaviness when that heaviness is the whole point.

hater

02-12-2017, 04:06 AM

edge of eternity trailer has pretty good music which seems to be from the game.not familiar with the composer.

The Zipper

02-12-2017, 10:09 AM

Yugo is not among my absolute favorite media composers but I feel he does not deserve to be put in the same category as Hayashi. Granted Hayashi is better than many other Sawano clones, and especially Yokoyama, but he's hardly someone to look forward to if you want an orchestral score. I would take Kanno over him any day. Remember, the guy wrote Birdy Decode, he has some spark in him ;)I agree with Kanno being more skilled and having better credentials, but his style of music- that very upbeat pop/jazz influenced music with electronica is very much in the same vein as Hayashi. Neither of them are particularly good at writing top-notch orchestral music, but when it comes to making tunes and just giving a very vibrant atmosphere, I think they're roughly equal. As much as I loved Birdy Decode, I don't think the music would have felt much different at all had Hayashi scored it. Likewise with Kanno scoring Build Fighters over Hayashi.

I've been especially disappointed in Kanno lately with his lackluster work on Jojo's. He's given two settings that play greatly to his strengths- a campy world-touring adventure story that would have worked excellently with his lighthearted bombast, and a literal suburbia that would have worked excellently with his jazzier fluffy Mancini-esque tunes. He pulled both of these types of music excellently in Birdy, and yet all he does in Jojo is poorly mimic Iwasaki's style and rehash the same damn theme over and over without any shred of creativity on how to vary it. I know Kanno really looks up to Iwasaki, but he should stick to his own guns, especially with such great material to work with.

People can whine about Iwasaki's dubstep opera or whatever crazy experiments he does, but I doubt any of it will reach the same levels of awful as Kanno's Cat-step:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mewbPAtkbAw

Vinphonic

02-12-2017, 12:12 PM

@hater: It's Mitsuda... also on a roll recently with the upcoming Black Butler movie and Xenoblade 2.

@The Zipper: I will agree that since Kanbee he hasn't done anything substantialy orchestral and his genre switching is not always succesful and lackluster compared to experimental masters like Iwasaki and much of his work does not even come close to his work on Birdy, Shaolin Girl, Library Wars etc. he did over ten years ago BUT the man can write a theme if nothing else. If you combine all his drama Main Themes you get one hell of an album.

However, his soundtracks still have a high chance of having some gold in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isdqBMZzhZk /

And how I wish he would deliver a whole hour long orchestral score of THIS quality: http://picosong.com/rvGM

On another topic: Folks, we've entered a new corner stone of marvel: Japanese TV-Anime are now getting orchestral concerts (again). Next up is a P.A. Works concert in march with music from Hanasaku Iroha, Glassip, Shirobako and Haruchika (I guess we can expect Hamaguchi to provide the arrangements).

endymione

02-12-2017, 12:31 PM

Anybody know anything in regards to this? ;

http://vgmdb.net/album/65285

and this -

http://vgmdb.net/album/65286

I shall endeavor to share them myself if i somehow manage to acquire them before any other personage here :D

Good day

pensquawk

02-12-2017, 04:26 PM

@nextday: Thank you for the share, I've been anticipating this recording for a long time now. I loved it, but I agree with everyone on the fact that he expands one idea a tad too much and some of the transitions felt out of place like in 7:36 of the last part. All in all, it's was a nice listen and it's more than welcome in my book if this becomes more frequent!

As much as I loved Birdy Decode, I don't think the music would have felt much different at all had Hayashi scored it. Likewise with Kanno scoring Build Fighters over Hayashi.

I wholeheartedly disagree, both had the chance to score for a super hero themed anime (Hayashi - Boku No Hero Academia, Kanno - Birdy The Mighty & Decode) and you can spot a lot of differences already just by comparing their approach in main themes:

Main Theme
Hayashi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LTVHSTh_l0
Kanno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F9JjdEFYjA

Kanno has superior brass work going on here, meanwhile Hayashi, using fake sounding sustaining brass a la Sawano. Not to mention that in the variation of Decode, despite changing it to a more upbeat rock version like Boku No Hero's theme, the recording (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Y4OIWGr4w) AT LEAST seems more cleaner and distinguishable than what's happening in BNHA. I like some of Hayashi's work (Death Parade), but Yugo at the very least developed his own style to the point his works inspired other artists like Kenichirō Suehiro in Re: Zero (seriously I have to show those similarities someday).

I would agree more with Gundam's case, solely because Reconguista in G as a Gundam score was such a major bummer and disappointment, that I wouldn't have cared at that point if either Hayashi or Kanno did it. As for JoJo... well... I sadly agree, I can understand why Iwasaki left now. Kanno sounds so restrained here it hurts, what could've been a great villian theme for someone as Yoshikage Kira, ended in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QPEVQp1MZw&list=PLQk-LYBKTa8be04GVVOCqnz0BcxoOf77L&index=9), and the variations of it aren't better at all.

Yugo Kanno is miles and miles away from what Iwasaki has done both eclectically and orchestral in terms of music, yes, but I don't think either he's in the same domain as Hayashi, who's more with the likes of Yokoyama and Sawano, but at least better than both of them combined in the present.

JBarron2005

02-12-2017, 04:35 PM

Found this on YouTube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Ab4xv2n7k

I was surprised by the quality of the arrangements! Glad to see Chrono Trigger get some love! Some issues with the performance with soloists, but for the most part the group plays with gusto and vivacity. I wonder who arranged the music? Obviously for the Monster Hunter part, they used existing material such as Hamaguchi's brilliant orchestration of Proof of a Hero. Also Final Fantasy music in this is a little rough in both arrangement and performance. Although their arrangement of Shuffle or Boogie from FF8 is cool as well as finally hearing Feel Thy Blade from FF9 is nice!

MastaMist

02-12-2017, 06:47 PM

Kanno's work for JoJo was fine, had a lot of great themes, including Kira's. The orchestral actiony tracks aren't as harmonically layered and vibrant as Stardust Crusaders', but that's by design to reflect the difference of the setting's scope. Less vast and cinematic, more tense and and industrial. I could listen to Killer, Parting, and all the different Diamond themes every day.

nextday

02-12-2017, 07:15 PM

If you combine all his drama Main Themes you get one hell of an album.
https://mega.nz/#!UdVUgJAQ!XuZy5D_ZWHC5d1pTwAuMVnhiynEbHHWFzxC3z_2s97M

I created this collection about 3 years ago, right before Gunshi Kanbee was released. It includes all his themes from 2003 to 2013 (orchestral and non-orchestral), save for a couple that I couldn't locate.

On a different note, what is THIS abomination: http://yugokanno-movie.com/images/ajin_newedit.mp4

The Zipper

02-12-2017, 08:34 PM

I will agree that since Kanbee he hasn't done anything substantialy orchestral and his genre switching is not always succesful and lackluster compared to experimental masters like Iwasaki and much of his work does not even come close to his work on Birdy, Shaolin Girl, Library Wars etc. he did over ten years ago BUT the man can write a theme if nothing else.
That's the thing that disappoints me the most about Kanno- he used to be fantastic, but nowadays he's very lackluster, regardless of any genre he composes for. Not just Jojo's, but as a whole Psycho-Pass and Reconguista had every right to have a great soundtrack much in the same vein as their predecessors (GiTS and the many prior Gundam series), but Kanno just blew it all, even though he could have easily knocked them both out of the park (especially Reconguista- what happened there?) At least when Iwasaki works on a show, even if he hates the premise, he'll try a bunch of interesting experiments just because he can. And yet with Jojo, Kanno only "experiments" because Iwasaki did it, and instead of just being himself he decides to be a poor copy. Maybe it's because he's working on more high-profile shows than ever before, but his current music sounds like it was made by a guy who just wants to play it safe.

I quite like that theme you posted for Maku ga Agaru, but that had more to do with the decently sized orchestra being used rather than Kanno's music itself.

I wholeheartedly disagree, both had the chance to score for a super hero themed anime (Hayashi - Boku No Hero Academia, Kanno - Birdy The Mighty & Decode) and you can spot a lot of differences already just by comparing their approach in main themes:I'm going to cut some slack to Hayashi on BNHA because he was working on it at the same time as Kiznaiver, and both turned out rather mediocre compared to his usual output. I would say Build Fighters is a much better representation of his overall style. As a whole though, I do agree that Kanno is the superior musician, but he hasn't made anything noteworthy in years despite having better shows and resources than ever before.

For someone who isn't formally musically trained, Hayashi can still compose and orchestrate better than many of those currently working in anime, including Sawano. The first minute of this puts everything Sawano has ever written to shame, and reminds me far more of Yuugo Kanno in his old days than whatever he's churning out now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd46nIoKJq8

On a different note, what is THIS abominationI'm more offended by the horrible editing in that video than the music.

Vinphonic

02-13-2017, 12:01 PM

:)

With the recent episode of LWA we finally got a good taste of the REAL score... we proably have to wait many months but it's no cheap knock-off of the OVAs afterall. This is special Oshima magic. Wonderful symphonic scoring.

Vinphonic

02-13-2017, 02:31 PM

In celebration and as a precursor to his upcoming concerts.

The Legacy of Japanese Composers
Joe Hisaishi (Mamoru Fujisawa)

Japanese Composer Mamoru Fujisawa achieved worldwide fame under his alias “Joe Hisaishi” and is the greatest living composer of this century and will be remembered as one of the greatest composers who ever lived. He is part of the pantheon of legendary composers that houses John Williams, Vaughan Williams, Korngold or Prokofiev.

He started as a modern experimentalist, inspired by Terry Riley and Steve Reich, experimenting with synths and avant-garde music but transformed into today’s greatest guardian of tonal classical music. This directly parallels the western world’s greatest living composer, John Williams, who started with Jazz, entered the film music world, achieved a beautiful collaboration with a world-famous director and gave us many of the best film scores ever written with a few concert works as bonus. To this day Williams has numerous compilation albums released, his music is celebrated with sold-out concert halls and he vehemently holds the flag for the necessity of appreciating classical music. His work has touched the mind and soul of an entire generation and I’m sure future generations as well. No other Japanese composer compares to this reputation and legacy except for Hisaishi. He is easily more popular and recognized (in Japan and around the world) than all of the other Legacy composers combined.

Hisaishi had the luxury of having multiple of the (very) few fruitful Japanese composer-director relationships comparable to Spielberg-Williams. He works not only in Japan but has various collaborations all around the world, conducted at Cannes and 90% of his orchestral music is performed by a Symphony Orchestra, which considering his enormous body of work should tell you about his prestige. To this day he has released numerous orchestral albums, symphonies (they call it symphonic suites) and concerts. He even entered the director’s chair and wrote a few books.

He has a deep appreciation for classic western film music and Slavic romantic works. You can certainly attribute a certain “Slavic” feel to many of his works and not for nothing did he personally conduct and released a CD of Anton�n Leopold Dvoř�k's New World Symphony. He also shares my views on today’s classical music in that most is just a chaotic mess that rejects tonality as if it’s the antichrist. Time and time again I hear just academic wanking and I guess I don’t need to remind you of Gabriel Prokofiev ‘genius’. There’s just no reasoning with these circles that honestly dismiss Williams and Hisaishi’s achievements just because they are tonal. I give the middle finger to atonal experimentalism of today. We’ve already had Penderecki, you can’t ever top that. It’s not hip anymore, it’s boring, it became the new clich� and is played-out to everyone’s boredom. There’s a reason people still remember and visit classical and romantic music after hundreds of years and right now Hisaishi is acting as their strongest advocator.

He is currently working on the PS4/PC game Ni No Kuni 2 among certain TV and film projects and he is still far off from the retirement age.

Another thing about him is that it's incredibly easy to find almost everything he has done in FLAC. I only have to thank tangotreats and Herr Salat for a few contributions that are saving me the trouble of ripping CDs. But I have to say that had difficulty finding Yamato and Cloud on the Slope in FLAC, so I've ripped them from my CDs.

I. Hisaishi’s Ghibli (Animation Works)

Part 1 (https://mega.nz/#!2oMkBbpR!M5Dqz7ztIB4tx1S26p_mbD6DyDBzKutUbTskL0cb-mQ) / Part 2 (https://mega.nz/#!H8823ZIA!iV6_XA3wXfv_8ZTnN7vFEKFqiMY7UjeG0BtOpg0ONgY)

The first three albums are intended as a general introduction to the masters work. Melodyphony is one of the greatest collaborations between a Japanese composer and a European Orchestra, on par with Sahashi’s Gundam Symphonies or Oshima’s Moscow scores. “Departures” makes the entire soundtrack album of Okuribito obsolete and “Orbis” (A homage to Beethoven) is his greatest choral work in my opinion.

His collaboration with Ghibli director Hayato Miyazaki have led to numerous fantastic concertesque works, highly tonal and full of unforgettable melodies. Symphonic albums, all of them. His 25th Anniversary concert for Ghibli will go down in history as one of the greatest concert performances of all time. A phenomenal achievement of scale and melody I revisit every single year. The 25th Anniversary Budokan concert rip is provided by tangotreats.

Noticeable is the collaboration with the Czech Philharmonic for his symphonic works for which he requested a specific “Slavic character in the music”. His Howl's Moving Castle and his Princess Mononoke symphonies are both masterpieces.

I feel Nausicaa is best served in symphonic form which is why it’s not present in this collection. There are a lot of variations, easily his most repeated work, appearing on numerous albums. I think the Budokan concert and the Symphonic Best Selection are the best versions.

For ARION we can hear the early Hisaishi taking on a full-scale symphonic work with the voice of the rhythm master, Mamoru Fujisawa: Much more rhythmic in character than his later symphonic works and reminiscent of Golden Age cinema.

Totoro, Laputa and Ponyo showcase Hisaishi divine gift of unforgettable melodies that stick with you your entire life. Pure Joy and love for live shine through his music like no other. There's also numerous winks and homages to the classical repertoire. Most noteable is the appearance of Vaughan Williams and Wagner in Ponyo. I also consider his Kaguyahime a masterpiece of Japanese orchestral sound with “Hishou” being among my favorite compositions from the master.

For the game Ni no Kuni Hisaishi crafted one of the greatest game scores of all time that sits alongside Outcast, Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. And soon we will find out if he will deliver another one of the greatest game scores ever written.

II. Live-Action Joe (Film and Television Works)

Part 1 (https://mega.nz/#!b1dgHIBb!92ghqCCq5tWLRtorIZ8sR360wyH6HKtDr14pMsEQPSw) / Part 2 (https://mega.nz/#!qo0X0S7Z!uaddx3eITFqU6h24YeBs4XzRDIXuBIr5NZmiHE245aY)

Now we are entering the realm of Hisaishi the classical film composer.

He wrote tons of great war scores but not even a composer of his ability shies away of taking inspiration from other composers across the ocean more than is appropriate. He blatantly used Hans Zimmer’s The Rock for Yamato for example, but what is funny is that it actually works far better in the context of a classic concertesque Hollywood score. His Elegy of Men is one of the greatest action pieces ever written for film.

Saka No Ue No Kumo is a glorious TV score with a glorious heart sweeping theme. One of the greatest TV scores ever written, three hours of a concertesque war symphony.

With Onna no Nubunaga he delivers a masterfully crafted choral rhapsody and Giant Deep Sea Creatures is a masterfully crafted textural sea symphony with the character of his concert works.
Tenchi Meisatsu and Kiseki no Ringo are like Tototro and Laputa a joyful outburst of pure melody that lifts your spirit.

Watashi wa Kai ni Naritai reminds me of Oshima’s Adiantum Blue in parts and is an introspective and tragic symphonic journey.

His two dog stories are usually places where you find the infamous “Mickey Mousing” but not with Hisaishi. Full on symphonic adventures with killer melodies is what you get instead.

He also contributed music to various Asian and European productions, from China to France. You get the full-blown Hollywood bombast with A Chinese Tall Story, a more concertesque symphonic journey with The Legend (of Four Gods), Golden Age glory with Dongmakgol, (European) Silver Age drama with The Sun Also Rises, a horneresque Dark Fantasy Epic with Le Petit Poucet, or even Silent Film Era homages with Italian film music flair in Le Mecano de La General.

III. Mamoru Fujisawa (Concert Works)

Download (https://mega.nz/#!7hklwShY!Om6zrAa4F3dQjgptwivzKLYtepiLkZongtm-_xvoPw4)

The real man behind Hisaishi wrote also many concert works with a more personal feel attached to it since he has his foundation in minimalism and rhythm mastery.
You can also count his Melodyphony and Symphonic Best Selection among those, I’ve just included them in the first part as a general introduction of his music, so I’m talking about them as well.

His Orchestral Works expand and revise his musical ideas from various media projects, turning them into Symphonic Suites. He also includes his concert works, many clearly inspired by Steve Reich. Especially noteworthy is his musical homage to Scott Fitzgerald. But whether it’s his ode to Beethoven with Orbis and Sinfonia or his Symphonic Variations on “Merry-go-round”, I’m 100% sure they will be added to the “classical repertoire” in the future. This music deserves to live on in the concert hall forever.

With The End of the World he created a modern masterpiece in the vain of the Hiroshima Symphony, a brilliant fusion of minimalist rhythm and dissonant action with operatic soprano, monumental choir and beautiful melodic passages.
Minima_Rythm is his great opus of minimalist music in the vain of Philip Glas and Steve Reich and he is paying tribute to his early inspirations as a composer with a fantastic labyrinth of rhythm, made even more impressive by the sound of the world’s greatest orchestra.

Finally a few albums with his collaboration with Japanese Director Kitano where we can hear the voice of Fujisawa more than the voice of Hisaishi. But I will say something sacrilegious now: I love his later phases infinitely more than his early phases. I’m not particularly fond of his experimentalism phase, especially the electronic ones. Kohei Tanaka is the only composer to my knowledge that successfully incorporated synths into orchestral works that do not feel “dated” or slightly off-putting.
But those three albums are not only works of art but also thematic gold and full of heart. Kikojiro no Natsu has an absolute killer melody that will ease your day and Brother has a Jazzy Hisaishi with full-blown romanticism. What’s not to love.

Composer Profile: Joe Hisaishi

Education: Kunitachi College of Music

Occupation: Composer, Conductor, Arranger, Director, Author

Inspiration: Classical Repertoire, Hollywood, Minimalism, Experimental Rock and Jazz

Similar western composer: John Williams, Nino Rota, Ennio Morricone, Steve Reich

Style: Contemporary Classic, Minimalism, Golden Age

I will now close my final piece of my Legacy Composers project, musical archieves with some of the greatest orchestral media music ever written, with the words of the master himself:

“I want to create music that people feel passionate about. That is my goal” – Joe Hisaishi

pensquawk

02-14-2017, 02:54 AM

http://www.e-onkyo.com/music/album/smj4547366294798/ more samples probably for Vol. 2 of Naotora :)

endymione

02-14-2017, 04:36 PM

I shall endeavor to converge all of your attention again :D

There was a Masamichi Amano album released ca three weeks ago.

MASAMICZ AMANO 60th ANNIVERSARY ALBUM - http://vgmdb.net/album/65285 and http://vgmdb.net/album/65286

Not entirely sure if this is one album with two CD's, or two seperate releases alltogether.

Anybody know if this is newly recorded/orchestrated music or if it's simply a colleciton of previously recorded music?

As i mention in my prvious post, i will share these with ardour if i get a hold of them before anybody else in here.

nextday

02-14-2017, 05:08 PM

MASAMICZ AMANO 60th ANNIVERSARY ALBUM - http://vgmdb.net/album/65285 and http://vgmdb.net/album/65286
It's new recordings of his music for wind orchestra. Two albums.

Samples:
https://soundcloud.com/fostermusicjp/sets/amcd-6001
https://soundcloud.com/fostermusicjp/sets/60th-1-masamicz-amano-60th

The Zipper

02-15-2017, 06:57 AM

What a surprise, Finland's Animecon had their own orchestral concerts for anime back in 2013 and 2014, played by the Kuopio Symphony Orchestra and conducted by Atso Almila. Not an enormous ensemble, but it's played by pros, not amateur college students, and beats the pants off of pretty much any fan arrangement out there. It even beats the originals in some cases, just listen to that rearranged Noir piece and see if Kajiura could ever orchestrate like that in a million years. The sound quality is not that great, but it must have been an incredible experience for those who got to see it live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA4SN2n8LYk

I await the day when anime music finally becomes respected enough like film music to be played at concerts by professional conductors all over the world like this. This is just a small ensemble for a silly little anime convention, but it's a start.

tangotreats

02-15-2017, 12:36 PM

A 40 piece isn't bad - but the quality of playing is sometimes genuinely atrocious and never better than reasonable - and some of the arrangements sound to be significantly simplified compared to their originals. (The Escaflowne track, for example - it sounds like it was transcribed - badly - by ear.)

And whoever did the recording engineering should be taken outside and shot.

The KSO, while not world class, are better than this - do they not care, are they woefully under-rehearsed, are they drunk, or is it a little bit of everything?

</pessimistic bastard>

Fascinating to hear, absolutely. Sadly, anime music lives in a vacuum - film music people won't go near it because it's Japanese and written for cartoons, and classical people won't go near it because if film music is bad, anime music must be bad times ten.

If I were rich, I'd love to put on a film music concert in London and then tour it around the world, and put all the stuff everybody knows on the menu - so they'd get their Star Wars, Batman, Lawrence of Arabia, James Bond, and all that... but also drop in some very carefully curated pieces by Sahashi, Amano, Hisaishi, Yamashita, Hirano, etc. A proper concert, a quality concert. I bet it'd be a really big hit.

I'd put that concert on CD at a reasonable price, make sure every film music review site got copies, and get the popular classical music radio stations to play it.

The next year, I'd do a full-on anime concert, and drop in some slightly more high-brow stuff from Japanese composers.

evilwurst

02-15-2017, 10:20 PM

(The Escaflowne track, for example - it sounds like it was transcribed - badly - by ear.)

Heh. That may be the only way to do it. Sheet music for these isn't formally published, right? So to get the "real" score, they'd need to be working with Kanno or her people directly - or with someone in the original studio who smuggled out their copies before they were supposed to hit the recycle bin on the way out after the original recording sessions.

Hah, oh man, and a blatant panic flub from the oboe as I'm listening through while typing this.

And whoever did the recording engineering should be taken outside and shot.
The KSO, while not world class, are better than this - do they not care, are they woefully under-rehearsed, are they drunk, or is it a little bit of everything?
Sounds like good players, but with the occasional flub, and not entirely together. Yeah. "Anime music I'm only ever going to play twice" is not getting the full attention of "standard repertoire I had to master before even auditioning". My guess is that they did at least get a sight-read once-over rehearsal the day before.
I don't think the percussion actually listened to the anime versions of some of these. There are a few spots where they're all over the place (and not just sounding like mud due to the recording quality). The start of X there wouldn't have sounded like that if they'd heard it before, even if they'd only been handed the sheet music five minutes before the performance.
Also, amusing hasty withdrawl from an accidental violin solo in Noir. Hah. (Pulled it off pretty well on the second pass, though).

I would have been ecstatic to attend a concert like this as a kid, though, even recognizing the parts that were off.

edit: went and listened to the soundtrack version of X and then this one, and realized that they're not THAT far off, but they're missing the timpani and trying to compensate with more dramatic snare and it doesn't work.

tangotreats

02-15-2017, 11:57 PM

Weeeelll, I guess sheet music isn't readily available, but I'm sure it could be obtained from the music publisher - all you would have to do is contact them, tell them you were putting on a concert, and ask for sheet music. Since they've obviously already bought licenses and have the legal go-ahead from the production company to play the music in the first place, one would assume that they would be willing to sell them parts. Gone are the days where film studios record the score for a film and then throw the music into a furnace believing it to have no future value.

Then again, this concert was obvously, by necessity, an exercise in penny pinching - maybe the parts cost too much and they had a transcription done in-house.

Even if this were not the case, ear transcriptions can still be good. There's so much in Dance Of Curse where it sounds like the arranger just said "Oh, f**k this, there's too many notes here..." or just did copy and paste in complex sections. Whether this was to give the orchestra the best possible chance of playing very complicated music with obviously limited rehearsal time, because they couldn't be bothered to get it right, or because their arranger had limited skill, I don't know. It's a shame, though.

Nobody expects them to play with the same precision as they would a stalwart of the classical repertoire; but there are aspects of this performance that constitute failures in even the most basic instrumental technique. The recording technique isn't helping them, but they're not helping themselves either. Shoddy orchestrations, poor conductor, under-rehearsal, inadequate rehearsal - definitely to blame for some of the horrors herein, though.

streichorchester

02-16-2017, 12:47 AM

They edited out the horn mutes. That's one of my favourite parts!

hater

02-16-2017, 04:33 AM

the word dlc can be found on the gravity daze 2 soundtrack, so maybe the 4 mysterious tracks are from the upcoming another story the ark of time ravens choice (kinda suggest this not being the only one isn`t it?) free dlc.still fingers crossed for something else...

Vinphonic

02-16-2017, 01:23 PM

Well regarding the fame of anime music, I think it will become acceptable over time. We just have to avoid the Video Games Live approach and do it like our German Game Concerts. France has for a long time been pretty damn accepting of Japanese music and culture, one of the reasons some anime concerts are held in Paris. Anime also gained a popularity boost in recent years in Germany as well. And don't forget Ghibli is anime. We've already had a quasi-WDR-Anime concert so perhaps in a few years we will see a full WDR Anime concert series arranged by Wanamo/Valtonen. But most important of all we see it becoming more and more accepted in Japan itself. Anime characters are presenting the Tokyo Olympics (Maho Girls among others) and the recent influx of concerts and symphonic albums for Doujin games and synthy J-Pop are encouraging trends. Japan always had a boner for orchestral music and Jazz and through an unchanged general high standard of music education, even for the average joe, it's now so deeply connected to their culture that we will probably see more and more signs of total orchestral domination by 2020.

The big elephant in the room is that Japanese Anime music (for the most part) is quality music on a skill and technical level greatly above today's western film music. I believe this quality will prevail. There's a reason anime music or Japanese music in general is liked by the younger generation more and more. And I do believe anime now is better than ever before in many aspects, eventhough I am sort of nostalgic for the Sahashi-Era. The amount of artistry in this industry right now for even the most shallow of cashgrabs is astounding. They don't differentiate between E and U at all. When your alternative is Black bitches and booty even your cutesy J-Pop opening seems like a cultural treasure in comparison. Anime songs for the most part are woven in context and never come close to the degredation and retardation of recent western pop. Their music is above all, not mean-spirited. Not to mention you find long dead-believed genres you never would have discovered otherwise.

After this winter already gave us one contender for score of the year, another possible Oshima masterpiece, next season is absolutely insane with the amount of skilled composers assembled. I honestly ask the question how they find the time to record the probably 30 orchestral scores with so few facilities... If you remember the previous decades there was always the high chance of an anime show or movie getting a synth score but nowadays you would be hard-pressed to find a show that does not have music recorded in a studio.

hater

02-17-2017, 11:48 AM

is that upcoming ultraman powered (complete) 3cd set a rerelease or something new or expanded

PonyoBellanote

02-17-2017, 12:48 PM

Have a taste of the 30th Anniversary Concert of Zelda here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSB99DTZ_jI

What ya etilist people think of it?

tangotreats

02-17-2017, 05:05 PM

Thank you for the link! I'm actually quite optimistic, here. It doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly exciting or new, but I think there's a lot to enjoy there. The Seiter arrangements stick out like a sore thumb, but there are only three spread across the two disc set, so most of the concert should be very good.

I'm looking forward to the Skyward Sword staff roll - of course, we've heard it in an orchestral guise already in the game itself, but this will be a bigger orchestra and will also mean we can hear the music losslessly at last. I always liked that piece as it wrapped up the major themes of Skyward Sword, gave them a good workout, and had good burst of the familiar Zelda theme (albeit sounding rather more like Super Mario Galaxy thanks to Yokota) in the middle. It was nicely arranged and the themes never outstayed their welcome.

Vinphonic

02-17-2017, 05:58 PM

Tango, the End Credits of Skyward Sword are already available in lossless in the 30th Anniversary Soundtrack collection ;)

This CD is very much worth it, but don't expect anything close to Symphonic Legends in terms of symphonic character. Some pieces also don't match up to their counterparts from the OGCs and recent concert arrangements BUT it's skillfully arranged quality music played by a worldclass orchestra and over an hour of great heroic fantasy bombast.

Regarding the sad addition of Seiter, I actually like the Wind Waker arrangement this time, maybe it's the worldclass orchestra, but the arrangement works for me, even if it's almost note for note reconstruction of game score moments strung together. However, Gerudo Valley and Twilight Princess are still embarassements. Gerudo Valley is a spanish/mexican fiesta, and here it's typical modern action scoring done in a sequencer with no interplay between the sections. Worlds apart from the recent Symphonic Gamers arrangement played with gusto and full of life (recently talked about by JBarron) and the Symphonic Selections arrangement. And Twilight Princess is typical overblown choral bombast that comes in much too early and the akward inclusion of Midna's Theme at the end rubs me the wrong way.

Did Yamashita and Takeoka also have some grutch against the horn section somewhat? There's numerous occasions where I desperately anticipated a few horn calls or rips that would have been perfect, especially in the Boss Battle medley and 30th Anniversary suite but I got the impression the horn section did not get full attention in those two pieces.

I think Ryo Nagamatsu's piece impresses the most, even if it's in typical fashion of this concert, more medley than symphonic suite. His style is classic Japanese fantasy ala Dragon Quest and it works beautifully with the Tokyo Philharmonic. A shame that the Kakariko Village Encore and Breath of the Wild aren't included so I hope there will be another volume in the future.

There you go Ponyo, I tried my hardest to be as nitpicky as possible ;) Overall, I love it very much

Herr Salat

02-17-2017, 06:48 PM

Regarding the discussion on Yoko Kanno's "Dance of Curse" from Escaflowne / transcribed sheets (from Zipper's post #17607 onwards):

Until Yoko Kanno publishes her own sheets on her new online shop site (https://meow.diamonds/index.php?sl=en), there's an orchestral transcription from 2015 by "HKG51" on dojinongaku.com for purchase that's not available anymore. It also includes an orchestra reduction /arrangement for choir & piano in which the choir sings during the B section.

Here's HKG51's virtual mock-up with the orch. reduction on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9K4fk4XWus
(I wish I could edit the full orchestra sheets like this, though: Prokofiev - Romeo and Juliet Op. 64, Dance of the Knights (with score) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXMsDuuNDOk))

Sheets (PDF):
mega.nz (https://mega.nz/#!NFokUThD!lLpFyV1u9JiI3uVJGC5u6E_Bitt0D9nuENurbp9QY1A)

PonyoBellanote

02-17-2017, 07:12 PM

You guys are still too etilist and nitpicky. Chad Seiter didn't work on this, they just used his arrangements instead of working new ones. I think overall this concert is fantastic. Though I really wish they had featured way more new stuff though..

tangotreats

02-17-2017, 07:42 PM

I didn't bite the first time, despite the unwarranted and deliberate provocation - but I will do this time:

What some people see as "nitpicking", most regular citizens of this thread see as attention to detail - and they see any attempt to reduce attention to detail as having a negative impact on the overall quality of things.

I am tired of any negativity being met with dismissive comments - "you're elitist" or "you're nitpicking" - particularly when a lengthy, well-researched post carefully explaining the reasons why such opinions are held is counteracted by a single-sentence verbal kick in the teeth. Time and time again, we see somebody who has put considerable effort into explaining a position - and we see that effort denigrated in the very next post by some withering complaint about "wall of text", or the current favourite, "elitism".

People put a great deal of effort and time into saying what they think - and you are responding to that effort by blowing raspberries in their faces.

This attitude is giving this thread an unpleasant atmosphere. Please give it a break.

On with the show; nobody said or even implied that Chad Seiter did new and original arrangements for this concert.

Sirusjr

02-17-2017, 08:01 PM

is that upcoming ultraman powered (complete) 3cd set a rerelease or something new or expanded

Found elsewhere:
ULTRAMAN POWERED (Complete) (3CD) by Sahashi, Toshihiko
World premiere release of complete original soundtrack from ULTRAMAN POWERED aka ULTRAMAN: THE ULTIMATE HERO (1996) produced in Hollywood, a remake film of the first ULTRAMAN. Series. This is the first Toshihiko Sahashi's work for the Sci-fi film. Discovered and remasterd from the master tapes.

To Ponyo :
You have to understand that some of us here who are difficult to please are not being nitpicky or elitist but simply have higher standards by which things that don't measure up are not interesting. By that I mean I have reached the point where there needs to be a certain level of quality to the orchestral writing in music for it to excite me and catch my interest. I would love to be able to sit and enjoy those pieces that don't live up to my standards like others do but once you reach a certain point you can't go back.

I would use the analogy of beer here. At first you are able to enjoy most things put in front of you and be happy that you have a beer. After a point if you develop your palate to a certain level then you no longer can simply be satisfied by any beer and ones that are below average are more obvious to you. Once I reached that point personally I would have loved to be able to still sit and enjoy some of the not so interesting beers but you can't go back and undo what you learned to taste.

streichorchester

02-18-2017, 12:52 AM

Those are some weird lyrics. I read somewhere that the lyrics to Dance of Curse are actually in French, so I guess the transcriber made them up to sound similar.

But the transcription itself sounds decent. I've done two MIDI transcriptions of Kanno's music myself: Warriors from Brain Powerd and Rena to Tanpopo from Aquarion.

tangotreats

02-18-2017, 01:09 AM

Nice analogy, although I'd like to add to that - it's not necessary that something be perfect in order to still be interesting or even well-enjoyed.

Any artist worth their salt would be infinitely happier to hear "I really liked this, but X didn't quite work and Y may have benefited more from Z approach" than to hear mindless praise; praise from someone who doesn't know what they're praising or lacks the technical acumen to actually know if that something is genuinely praiseworthy or not, may very well have been given with the best of intentions but is meaningless to the artist. Any artist worth their salt would look past even unkind criticism if it helped them improve their craft.

Childish artists who aren't worth their salt and have been immature enough to be taken in by the mindless praise... genuinely will lash out, or resort to straightforward logical fallacy defenses - the ones we've heard most frequently on this forum are a) "Well, I'm rich and you're not, so obviously you're wrong!", "SomeWanktard2001 on ZeldaFuckingRules.com said it was cool, so obviously you're wrong!", and "You couldn't have done better, so obviously you're wrong!"

The two things they will NEVER say:
1. "Thank you for the criticism - I welcome all comments, good and bad, and will continue to work to better my craft."
2. "Thank you for the criticism, which I disagree with for reason X, corollary Y, and example Z - but thank you for your comments."
3. "Thank you for the criticism, which I am forced to agree with - I could've done better there. I'll be more careful next time. Thank you!"

I love my mum to the ends of the earth and back, but she is the one person on this planet whose opinion about my achievements is completely worthless to me - not because I don't value her opinions, but because her opinions about her son are a) biased in my favour because I'm her son, and b) she has no interest or experience with the subjects in question so she is not qualified to judge whether my achievements were noteworthy or not. My grandad, on the other hand, whilst he also has no interest or experience with the subjects in question, is always willing to offer criticism. Even if it is hamfisted criticism, made from a position of sheer ignorance, it's infinitely more valuable to me than "Oh, wow, that's fantastic!" - a criticism forces me to think. Is that criticism justified? If it isn't, why not - what prompted it in the first place? If that criticism IS justified, how can I do better next time?

Praise feeds your ego, which starves your creativity. Criticism starves your ego, which feeds your creativity.

Every time somebody on this thread says something "nitpicking" or "elitist" they are actually contributing, in some small way, to standards of artistry.

PonyoBellanote

02-18-2017, 01:35 AM

You finished?

HunterTech

02-18-2017, 01:49 AM

You finished?

Dude. I'm pretty sure he'll never be finished. :laugh:

PonyoBellanote

02-18-2017, 02:13 AM

Dude. I'm pretty sure he'll never be finished. :laugh:

:changspew:

nextday

02-18-2017, 11:07 AM

Ponyo, if you're only interested in people telling you what you want to hear... then you're looking in the wrong place.

You should appreciate that there's actual discussion in this thread, not just a bunch of people nodding their heads in unison.

PonyoBellanote

02-18-2017, 11:57 AM

No, I just honestly only see here people complaining and complaining, being completely picky with the littlest thing and going on in paragraphs about how much they hate x composer, or x orchestra, and it's kinda tiring, I'm not telling anybody to stop, I'll continue standing it, I just wanted to speak my mind.

nextday

02-18-2017, 12:58 PM

Complaining and critiquing are not the same thing.

Vinphonic

02-18-2017, 01:34 PM

Fact: We don't HATE any person who has ever composed or played music ever (at least I believe in logic and reason from everyone who posts here) because I don't know them AS A PERSON. Who knows, perhaps I would rather want to hang out and have a beer with Djawadi than with Lennie Moore. But every thing I (and others in this thread) have ever said that could be misunderstood as hatred or complaint is solely on their work and role as a composer, arranger, orchestrator and performer.

I have a passion for orchestral music since youth, I studied it, I create it myself, I've seen real virtuosity of worldclass musicians with my own eyes that my inept playing can never match in a million years and I want to see these professional musicans having a good or even great time playing music they love written by people that know how they tick, what they can best play and how the body of an orchestra works in addition to pursue an artistic (meaning a piece of work written from their own hearts and minds, with no censorship on their thoughts) expression for either themselves, the concert hall or the media world. I also have the luxury of having an insanely huge and evergrwoing library of examples of good quality media music from the early 20th century to today that demonstrates this expertise and artistic expression. So whenever I hear a new piece of music I can not only pick it apart pretty accurately after a few listens, I can also compare it to an entire library of similar efforts in certain styles and moods.

I will always love hearing music made by people with passion and expertise in their field of work and I will always enjoy a score where I feel the musicians had a good time. This love for orchestral music deepend even further with age. I'm sure you can be quite grumpy when you want to focus on the negative aspects we say and not aknowledge the insane amount of passion and love for the art in this thread. Collaborations of people spending money together, buying long lost CDs or vinyl to share it with people for the love of it. I know it's shameless of me but don't my Legacy collection proof you otherwise. These are nothing but praise, what more do you want? Should I pretend the world is sunshine and rainbows and every composer ever can do no wrong? I think that is doing everyone a disservice.

I believe you are misguided if you honestly believe I (and others) have some sort of personal agenda with anyone or that we discredit a composer as a person or simply beause we "hate" them. I speak of "Seiter" as the orchestral arranger in comparison to Yamashita and others on the same album and the instant discrepancy in quality of arrangement jumping from piece to piece and "Seiter" the composer who falls short in every project he has done in comparison to previous efforts by dozens of other examples despite him saying he wants to make music like them. But the evidence is to the contrary. I don't know "Seiter" the person and I would never attack him as a human being and I say all this "negative" things about him because I wish he was of the same standards as the examples he wants to be. Praising Giacchino is not doing anyone a favor because he needs to improve fast. It's not a lie or lack of respect when I say Hollywood musicians hate him, it's things they said. They want to play for John Williams and not him. And it shouldn't be that way. I want him to be like the composer he adores, but he just falls short in comparison to Williams in any field. And that shouldn't be. It would make me happy getting the sense that people love to play his music and that it can sit alongside Williams efforts and works of art but he is not that person now. Ignoring it or even twisting reality and making him the next John Williams despite his obvious lack of talent and craft is not doing the world any good.

Herr Salat

02-18-2017, 03:27 PM

Because it's impossible everyone thinks the same...
Because they are questioning and thereby making me read differently...
Because there's complicated relationships regarding composers or works...

So to detract from the incoming Zelda flashbacks (Thread 57893) and hoping I can elicit further insights from my betters tango & c̶a̶s̶h̶ streich, et al.: What were your 2016 music highlights?

<hr>

Considering these days' political climate, it's a noticable selection of dead white men (this commercial compilation was done in 1994). But it has Gerhardt conducting Hanson's 2nd symphony, so...

cond. Charles Gerhardt
Gerhardt here enjoying a cig (

)

Copland, Aaron ー Billy the Kid (Suite)
Griffes, Charles Tomlinson ー The White Peacock (Four Roman Sketches)
Gould, Morton ー Tropical
Hanson, Howard ー Symphony No. 2, Op. 30 "Romantic"
Griffes ー The Pleasure-Dome of Kubla Khan, Op. 8
Copland ー Hoe-Down from Rodeo

One of the last great symphonists. Though not as long as Mahler's or Shostakovich's, Hanson's seven symphonies are each spectacularly thematic, powerful, beautiful, and an orchestrator's dream. (...) Start off with Symphonies 1 and 2, you won't regret it. Look for the awesome parts for timpani and piccolo, as well as the stunning brass fanfares and chorales.

FLAC and booklet files from HDtracks.com

https://anon.click/rivus40 (https://anon.click/rivus40)
(MediaFire Behind Capcha)

tangotreats

02-18-2017, 03:56 PM

Wow, was that really six years ago???

Herr Salat, lovely to see you again - you really need to post more often, my friend. ;)

And thank you for this album - you have no idea how long I've been wanting to hear the Gerhardt Hanson 2nd - thanks to Ridley Scott, it's probably 99% of people's first introduction to Hanson (myself included) - and the other pieces are fantastic. Griffes, in particular, I think doesn't get anywhere near the exposure he deserves. There are some fantastic mid 50s recordings on Mercury (Hanson conducting) of his music that are well, well worth checking out. :D

Musical highlights of 2016... Anime-wise, I think there were a lot of good things... but Drifters has to be the standout, for me... Not often, these days, do the really good composers get to go to Warsaw - Matsuo going back there, and turning out almost 30 minutes of superb, large-scale symphonic music despite the show only being a dozen episodes... that's got to be a highlight of the year for anyone, surely? :)

PonyoBellanote

02-18-2017, 04:00 PM

I'm liking how the Zelda 30th concert is sounding so far, but again, I wish there had been way more new, more familiar pieces..

There's a small nitpick, while I think the grand scale approach of the Triforce Heroes theme is okay, I'm just more fond of the celtic chamber feel to it of the original, I wish they'd have went with that.

tangotreats

02-18-2017, 04:11 PM

Ah, yes - it just appeared. :)

Liking it too - I could've done with a little more symphony and a little less medley, but on the whole it's very enjoyable. (All my previous misgivings about Seiter's arrangements notwithstanding!)

What you describe is an interesting "other side" to the debate about arrangements - it's not a nitpick at all; sometimes a piece of music just works better for a chamber ensemble. Not everything has to get orchestrated for 50,000 piece symphony orchestra. On this occasion I think it works - I am not a gamer so I have no connection to Zelda and no experience of the music in the game to form a comparison. But I would like to hear more slightly more intimate arrangements - not necessarily for Zelda but in general; wouldn't it be lovely to hear a string quartet, or a piano trio, or a wind quintet, or something similar, once in a while?)

PonyoBellanote

02-18-2017, 04:29 PM

Of course, I agree with you there. Not all Zelda music is bound to be arranged for a tremendous orchestra of a thousand of musicians. Some need a chamber to sound just right, or just less instruments than usual. But there's definitely music out there that could do magnificent with just being done with real instruments. No matter what kind of. Personally I was just accostumed to hear the original touch of the TriForce Warriors theme which was rather celtic and chamber-like, so I felt like the high super epic orchestration to it didn't really fit to me, but still, it's not bad, just personally would have prefered something else. And new, new music. Stuff that has never been orchestrated before would've been wonderful.

Vinphonic

02-18-2017, 05:46 PM

Well this is the reason I love the Symphonic Gamers Arrangement where we got Wood Temple and Deku Palace and the SCORE arrangement with the fully developed Underground Theme. I also wonder why there was no effort yet to arrange the various Ocarina pieces into full movements, Bolero of Fire would write itself. And a full Serenade of Water in full ballet mode would be something!

A real symphonic album ala Sailor Moon would work best with A Link to the Past I believe and I've said before Wind Waker shoud be played with a chamber ensemble, one of the reason I adore the Symphonic Selection version with Spark as it is basically a fusion of small celtic ensemble and symphony orchestra.

There actually is a small chamber album for Zelda, and it works beautifully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuCpatQNDbQ
I would also love to hear more intimate arrangements of various franchises.

And many thanks Herr Salat for this blast from the past :)

The Zipper

02-19-2017, 03:28 PM

We're getting a movie for both Mahouka and Bungou Stray Dogs, both will be sequels to the anime and not just recap/rehash of the TV broadcast. Only one that's had trailers so far is Mahouka and the music is the same as the TV series, but I'm sure it's mainly a placeholder.

Essentially, what this means is Iwasaki now has two big-budget orchestras to work with. The only question is what he will do with them. Very rarely does he get to compose for movies.

Vinphonic

02-20-2017, 07:05 PM

Regarding the recent surprise of Ultraman Powered, which I ordered with the speed of light, was anyone crazy enough to drop almost 100$ on either Mebius or Gaia? It would be neat to finally have everything in lossless with all the unreleased music, Gaia in particular. Was it already shared on the J-Net?

Update: I checked in again on Urara Meirochou, and just like with Magic of Stella I fully support putting a real emotional romantic orchestral score into cutezy SoL. It's not LWA but the music has heart and has a classical nature. And all by young newcomers again. So much young composers with that instant "classical feel" are entering the business as of late... Soundtrack out on March, 08.

jediscore

02-21-2017, 05:56 PM

Would anyone help about
Russian Superheroes Movie "Guardians" Score composed by Georgiy Zheryakov?

Sirusjr

02-21-2017, 09:51 PM

So far I prefer the 25th anniversary release to the new one as it is more polished but the new one is solid enough for a live album.

Vinphonic

02-22-2017, 04:28 PM

Kohei Tanaka
GRAVITY DAZE 2
Tokyo Studio Orchestra

Download / FLAC / Arranged Ver. (https://mega.nz/#!yhEzVYyL!Gz6dP6MMc0dJgMlVWl3Uf9smm3XINk6LsP4aeAiDqCs)

There was a recent Gravity Rush 2 event by the game's staff where Tanaka talked in detail about the score and his scoring process. We see him conceive the main theme and various selected pieces on piano, in-depth commentary on his musical influences and he even brings the printed score with him and gives some examples. He even goes into detail about his "cascades of notes" piece based on the instruction "for this game moment we need a thematic battle royal climax" (for Tango).

At last we get a making-off featurette of the recording session with Tanaka conducting, instructing musicans and choosing instrument (also that drummer girl is a cutey :3). Finally he gives a little performance. The entire event was to promote the soundtrack and Tanaka also worked on the concert arrangements. Its all wonderful seeing everyone, from producers to directors to lead designers putting so much attention to the composer's profession. They care.

You need a nico account though: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm30683199

On about the score itself, and to my surprise I found out I missed some stuff in the game afterall. Strangely some orchestral pieces loop and others don't but thankfully the best pieces are around the five minute mark and properly finish. I also never realized how much of the final battle was basically a concerto for contrabasson. There's roughly 90 minutes of orchestral score and another 90 minutes of fantastic orchestral rock and jazz. The final four pieces are not suites unfortunately... however, four serious orchestral hybrid tracks with a beautiful fusion of synth and orchestra only Tanaka can pull off. And the sound is fortunately nothing to critique about. It's pretty close to a Holllywood recording.

If you take into account that he did all this himself you simply have to marvel at his work here. Where Kid Icarus needed a battalion of composers and orchestrators to bring it to glorious fun level, Tanaka does it all on his own by sheer gift and craft.

This soundtrack above all else, is the work of a musician. I urge everyone to buy a copy. This is not a symphonic album but a glorious joyful outburst of music. That said, in this arranged version you can anticipate a 30 minute action climax that rocks your socks off. One of my all-time favorite game scores for sure.

tangotreats

02-22-2017, 08:35 PM

Here's that video on YouTube in case you can't get Niconico working: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkHV8VKR03A&feature=youtu.be

Overall, an absolute disaster of a score when taken as a whole, just as I'd predicted it would be. Fantastic moments, but overall a disjointed hyperactive mess filled with missed opportunities.

Tanaka is an absolute genius, which is what makes this so disappointing for me. Only about 20 minutes of actual serviceable orchestral score, with the false impression of more generated by lazy looping; would it really have been THAT HARD to record ten seconds of a proper finish for these cues for the soundtrack album? Cues that go on, and on, and on, and on - including one that runs nearly seven and a half minutes, but only has enough actual musical content to hold interest for 90 seconds. Cues that inexplicably turn into pop/rock/God-knows hybrids half way through - a waste of a nice, big ensemble. New performances of previous cues from the first game (though recomposed and not mere re-recordings from the perspective of idleness - giving a proper ending to "Gravity Dizziness" (on Vinphonic's compilation) is worth its weight in gold, even though the crazy screaming trumpet near the end is totally inappropriate and almost destroys the impact of what went before.

And nonetheless, undeniably, a big, crazy outpouring of pure creativity, of musical essence - a melange of notes raining down from the sky to a point of drowning. For sheer relentless power, variety, colour, and vibrance, it truly cannot be beaten.

Despite all that, Tanaka reveals himself once again as nothing less than a pure musical machine. He is made of music - and his music, written by hand with nothing more complicated than skill and the tools composers have been using to write music for centuries - has some moments of glory. When Tanaka goes for it, he goes for it. There is no laziness, no sign of Tanaka wearing out or losing his touch.

What a mixed bag. :O

Sirusjr

02-22-2017, 09:52 PM

The mixture of styles is exactly what I would have expected after the first score. Always glad to have the full set and then the ability to cut out what I don't want.

Vinphonic

02-23-2017, 12:20 AM

Tango, you speak of the soundtrack as if it is a solo release or an arrange album with total freedom. Tanaka was given more guidelines than in his usual anime scores by the staff (as shown in the nico video) and he scored accordingly. In media scoring, the music's primary role is to fit and serve the project associated. We cannot simply isolate the music from the project associated if they are so closely tight together in this case. For example, in the game you visit previous areas from the first game so it's only natural you either use the same music as "character" for the place or you revise it (which is what Tanaka did). And if the director asks you to not change it too much... ;)

Tanaka was also closely involved with the games production and changed and recorded new music when needed. This is not same approach as with Valkyria or Ni No Kuni where they recorded the score first in a couple of days and then edited it later for the game. This explains the certain disjointed feel of the score as it was not conceived as one story from start to finish in the first place. The game itself is loosely connected story arcs.

Many of the tracks of the soundtrack are cut into sections or even properly finish ingame. Certain tracks change or add instruments based on dynamic situations and some pieces are even totaly different on the soundtrack. The many orchestral pieces with 5+ length are "Boss Stages" where you hear a more pronounced and intense variation with each phase. It's more Bolero than anything. This works perfectly in the game but I'll agree on the soundtrack not so much. They should have cut those pieces into individual tracks with proper finish (like they did with the outtakes). But then again, that's business as usual in the game scoring world.

Rest assured we are getting proper orchestral material with the upcoming concert and I still have not lost hope it will get released. Some Game Symphony Japan pieces found their way on soundtracks afterall (so they do record them!)

And remember we still have the light-hearted fantasy Princess Connect, his upcoming anime in spring and the mysterious "Big title" to look forward to. Tanaka is on a roll. I'm sure another symphony will find its way to our ears in the not too distant future.

streichorchester

02-23-2017, 04:48 AM

Reminds me of Ron Goodwin's 633 Squadron around 9 minutes in.

tangotreats

02-23-2017, 09:52 AM

In media scoring, the music's primary role is to fit and serve the project associated.

Do you think I don't know that? ;)

As we do so frequently in this thread, I judged the score as a listening experience on CD - and as a listening experience on CD, despite the obvious genius of its composer, it fails miserably in my opinion. It's four CDs crammed with completely random music in a thousand different genres; music which probably works ludicrously well in the psychotic LSD trip game that it came from, but on CD is the auditory equivalent of mixing up all your favourite flavours of ice cream and ending up with a sludgy brown mess of non-complimentary flavours with no character that end up simply making you sick.

Didn't I praise up Tanaka and the music enough (Power, variety, colour, and vibrance, fantastic moments of glory, written with skill, etc) that I could be permitted a criticism or two? ;)

"It's fine in the movie / game / whatever - it's BACKGROUND MUSIC!" is a phrase I'm sure you've heard as often as I have.

It was always going to be like this. Nobody expected any different, but when I hear my learned but sometimes over-enthusiastic friend making claims like "90 minutes of orchestral score" and that a very average and depressingly repetitive action cue is a "concerto for contrabassoon" that is "more Bolero than anything" and that you can "guarantee at least an hour of substantial orchestral score" somebody has to whine... it may as well be me, since everybody expects me to do nothing but complain anyway!

Part of the marvel of Bolero is that it used a very simple phrase, repeated and repeated, passed through different sections of the orchestra, in a gradually expanding arrangement - it has nearly twenty parts. And crucially (and astonishingly) you can start Bolero at pretty much *any* random point and within a single bar, know exactly where you are in the music. You can't take any piece of exceedingly repetitive, boring, and overlong music and call it a Bolero to make it sound like it's a compositional marvel. Making a rambling action cue by looping the same segment of music five times in a row, putting in extra annoying percussion on every repetition, really isn't the same thing. (Yes, I know, not every cue does that and there is often more than that going on "behind the scenes" but nonetheless Gravity Daze is no Bolero and Tanaka is no Ravel. These are not five minute pieces; they're one minute pieces designed to extend for as little or as much time as needed as dictated by the pace at which you play the game, and over-extended to a point of insanity on CD in order to justify filling up four CDs and charging a bomb for the soundtrack. There's nothing WRONG with that, but let's call a spade a spade. (They want 4100 yen for this thing - the raw production cost of one CD is less than half a penny, so they managed to double the price to the consumer (compared to your average soundtrack release) and increased their net production cost only a couple of pence per unit. The music is already mastered, and obviously no great effort goes into making these CDs - they just throw the tracks on there presumably in cue order - so it makes pretty much no difference to their bottom line whether there's one disc, four discs, or twenty discs).

Now is a good time to remind ourselves just what a splendid piece of music Bolero is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZDiaRZy0Ak

Vinphonic

02-23-2017, 12:58 PM

Part of the marvel of Bolero is that it used a very simple phrase, repeated and repeated, passed through different sections of the orchestra, in a gradually expanding arrangement - it has nearly twenty parts. And crucially (and astonishingly) you can start Bolero at pretty much *any* random point and within a single bar, know exactly where you are in the music. You can't take any piece of exceedingly repetitive, boring, and overlong music and call it a Bolero to make it sound like it's a compositional marvel.

Now is a good time to remind ourselves just what a splendid piece of music Bolero is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZDiaRZy0Ak

Do you think I don't know that? :D

tangotreats

02-23-2017, 03:08 PM

Touche, my friend... touche. :awsm:

Sirusjr

02-24-2017, 05:57 PM

I also find it interesting that it is only those scores that fail to work outside of the game or movie where people need to remind us of the purpose of the music. But those scores that are musical on their own and tell a story we don't need to be reminded so much about their original purpose. You could ignore that completely and still enjoy the music.

nextday

02-24-2017, 07:32 PM

Remember that KanColle (game, not anime) orchestra concert from last year? Well they're finally releasing the album next month (also on blu-ray).

The orchestrators are the same group that did the Miku Symphony concert.

tangotreats

02-24-2017, 11:09 PM

A cynic (I don't know where you would find one of those) might think it was a way to pretend disappointing scores are better. When a disappointing score comes along, along come the usual roll-call of excuses - that signpost "trying too hard":

He was asked to do it like that by the director / it works better in the game-movie-whatever / it's better than if Sawano had done it / it's like this to keep consistency with another title in the same franchise / *I* like it...

Gravity Daze 2 is the textbook example of a score that is probably exceptional within the media for which it was written, but a complete and utter failure as a musical work.

I always expected it to be - and I very much enjoy it on that basis. :)

The Zipper

02-24-2017, 11:40 PM

It's not right to consider every soundtrack as being a capable standalone work though. Unless you're telling me you enjoy listening to the stabbing strings of Psycho by itself in your free time.

tangotreats

02-24-2017, 11:51 PM

I enjoy listening to the complete score for Psycho in my free time; it's one of Bernard Herrmann's finest works and completely stands as a musical experience even completely divorced from the film.

It's not right to consider every soundtrack as being a capable standalone work though.

I didn't - I just stated that some are and some aren't, and those that aren't can still be enjoyed on that basis.

FrDougal9000

02-25-2017, 10:24 PM

I admit that this is a bit of an odd post to make, considering the request, but it's been in my head for days so I thought I may as well put it out there and see how it goes.

I've had the idea for some time about doing a playlist of orchestral songs from games, film, TV shows and elsewhere that I like, but with a particular catch: to make it sound as if this was all being played at a proper concert. This would involve arranging the order of the music so that each track flows from one to the other naturally, and to master them in such a way to make them sound like they were done by the same orchestra (I know that someone, Vinphonic maybe, has created filters to make it sound like the orchestra sound like Warsaw, Tokyo, etc.).

If anyone wants to take a crack at it, I've posted a track list down below with YT links for you to have a look. Unfortunately, I don't have any of these tracks as files, but I'll try find good files if you're interested.

Summer Fields would be the first track, to act as something of an overture, but how the playlist should be ordered after that is up to you. Also, if you want to remove any tracks for better flow, please go right ahead:

1. Summer Fields (Fable 1) - Russell Shaw, The Philharmonia Orchestra (https://youtu.be/F8HWf0LdM8A)
2. NiGHTS (NiGHTS Into Dreams...) - Tomoko Sasaki, arr. Hayato Matsuo (https://youtu.be/YI7hC8LFhv0)
3. Flight (Panzer Dragoon) - Yoshitaka Azuma, arr. Tomoyuki Hayahi, Panzer Dragoon Special Orchestra (https://youtu.be/k4oTU0srt2I)
4. The White Rabbit (The Simpsons Game) - Tim Wynn, Skywalker Symphony Orchestra (https://youtu.be/qAdZi1uzkuM)
5. Forest Glade (Kameo: Elements Of Power) - Steve Burke, arr. Nic Raine, The City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/Qsih68xMnZg)
6. Magic Touch_orchestral suite (Shiro's Songbook Xpressions) - Shiro Sagisu, arr. unknown, possibly London Philharmonic Orchestra (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxuDvsrFD0Y)
7. In The Forest (Sonic 2006) - Mariko Nanba, arr. Takahito Eguchi, Shinozaki Strings (https://youtu.be/EA-68c8PgXI)
8. The Journey Home WARSAW (Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War) - Keiki Kobayashi, arr. Katsuro Tajima, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/PObfAdQG89Y)
9. Oven-Fresh Day (Viva Pinata: Trouble In Paradise) - Grant Kirkhope, arr. Nic Raine, The City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/BbXXTsdSGVk)
10. Save This World (Phantasy Star Universe) - Hideaki Kobayashi, arr. Masamichi Amano, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/e8YzmJh1W5A)
11. Flowery Wind (Nobunaga's Ambition: Chronicles of Heaven) - Yoko Kanno, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/SU36hWcAUgA)
12. Scenario: Courage (Phantasy Star Online Episode III C.A.R.D. Revolution) - Fumie Kumatani, arr. Masamichi Amano, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/bjTjYMzaI_8)
13. Village: Sim City (Game Music Concert 2) - Soyo Oka, arr. Toshihiko Sasahi, Tokyo Memorial Orchestra (https://youtu.be/mda1-O4THXU)
14. Wake Me When You Need Me (Halo 3) - Martin O'Donnell & Michael Salvatori, Northwest Sinfonia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdI1xBqPy5g)
15. The Earth Shark Is Coming! (Blue Dragon) - Nobuo Uematsu, orchestra unknown (https://youtu.be/7SHw9lxVUgw)
16. Des Liens Soldies (Berserk I: The Egg of the Kind) - Shiro Sagisu, arr. Masamichi Amano, The London Studio Orchestra (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbEEk2WSoYg)
17. Distant Fields (Nobunaga's Ambition: Chronicles of Heaven) - Yoko Kanno, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/mmiKsJSDZiE)
18. Calm Before The Storm (Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII) - Masashi Hamuzu, arr. Yoshihisa Hirano, Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra (https://youtu.be/rV6O0XBbT1E)
19. Expansion of Blockade (End of Evangelion) - Shiro Sagisu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NIStd73QmU)
20. Farewell (Pocahontas) - Alan Menken (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yCsK6n9it0)
21. Rakuen (Wolf's Rain) - Yoko Kanno, Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwvQ6Hs7tJE)

I know that I might asking a bit too much for a free request, and if none of you want to do it, that's fair enough. No, really, I'm not trying to be passive-aggressive or any of that indirect shit I can't stand. If y'all don't want to do it, I don't mind. I'm just having on a little mental exercise and was just wondering if anyone else wants to indulge me on it. Thanks for reading this, and I hope you have a good day.

-FrDougal9000

nextday

02-26-2017, 02:29 PM

Hirano says he had an orchestra recording session yesterday for a TV anime series starting in April. Hopefully not another 5 minute thing?

tangotreats

02-26-2017, 04:46 PM

:happycroc:

I nearly wrote "there would never be a full orchestra recording session for a five minute anime" and then I thought "This is Japan we're talking about - of course there could be..." ;)

Then again, this is probably a proper series. Did Hirano say anything about the makeup of the orchestra?

As far as TV anime scores go, his last of any kind to feature an orchestra was Ippo in 2013... his last score to feature anything substantially orchestral (despite a small and synth-supplemented orchestra) was Driland the year before, and the last time he was able to wheel out a decent-sized orchestra for a score with symphonic scope and proper dramatic sensibility was, frighteningly, Real Drive way back in 2008!!!!!! :(

Hirano needs to come back. Not to write three minutes of good music in amongst a terrible cheap TV drama score, or to free-wheel through an all-electronic fluffy comedy score for a cheap Chibi five-minute filler anime... he needs to get back to contributing full, coherent, classically-oriented, orchestral scores for anime - the kind he's repeatedly proven he is best at, the kind we have all come to associate with his name.

Then Yamashita needs to do another Kantai, Amano needs to do another anything, Souhei Kano needs to score a 50 episode prestige show in Warsaw, Takaki needs to get his teeth into some serious, grown-up anime after getting stuck in the Precure rut, Oshima needs to do another Tempest, and Kameoka needs to get another sole-composer gig on a big show and get a decent budget for it.

All for April, please. That'd be quite nice, thank you, Japan, if you're listening. ;)

hater

02-27-2017, 01:44 PM

If you don�t mind a bit of narration here and there and religious content doesn�t turn you off immediately, rob gardners lamb of god is a joy. imagine a disney musical style version of jesus story, with huge choir and the full force of the LSO backing it.squeezed a few tears out of me.wonderful stuff, no etho music like so often, klassic and classy.huge and very emotional.2cd release and on spotify.glorious!

hater

02-27-2017, 03:31 PM

everyone interested in more volumes of superman animated, justice league unlimited and teen titans, please sign the petition shown in fsm forums called save dc animated music,1000 people willing to buy it should do the trick.superman animated is SUPERB.and even when they lost the money to do an orchestral score in JL and JLU, the music is still as powerful as ever with synth.

nextday

02-27-2017, 03:54 PM

Did Hirano say anything about the makeup of the orchestra?
All I know is that it was recorded at Sound Inn, which is pretty standard for Hirano.

...and the last time he was able to wheel out a decent-sized orchestra for a score with symphonic scope and proper dramatic sensibility was, frighteningly, Real Drive way back in 2008!
What about Broken Blade?

tangotreats

02-27-2017, 06:24 PM

I was referring to TV scores. BB was still seven years ago... :(

Vinphonic

02-27-2017, 06:28 PM

GRAVITY DAZE [The Complete Recordings]

Music composed and conducted by Kohei Tanaka
Arranged, edited and mixed by Vinphonic

Download [FLAC] (https://mega.nz/#!Cgd1GQgY!2mktSWSobWG5u_7bzTIiyIcogan2rU4EnQtUYN5l0GE)

Fadeouts and loops be gone!!!

I proudly present you a proper representation of the two scores sadly butchered on the soundtracks. I did what I could to match it as closely to the real recording session as possible, so this time there is not a single pointless loop left and the few pieces that do still loop do so naturally (meaning each version only ONCE and then a proper finish). I’ve also rearranged all pieces for a more organic narrative and combined many pieces from the two soundtracks together that work in context. Now you can listen to almost three hours of glorious music back to back without getting an epileptic seizure or anticipating the dreadful fadeout. And I did it all free of charge.

Erase the previous listening experience from your mind and take a new dive. Just pretend it's a new anime score from Tanaka-san ;)

But even without all those loops the purely orchestral score clocks around 90 minutes (GD1: 30 / GD2: 60) with another 90 minutes of fantastic orchestral rock and jazz (everything with Raven’s Theme is pure kickassery), so I guess I’m still not wrong with my statement :p

Samples:

Main Theme (http://picosong.com/GQBr)

Kat’s Theme (One Piece style) (http://picosong.com/GQZX)

Delta Team (http://picosong.com/GQZw)

Storm and Triumph (http://picosong.com/GQZC)

Gravity Daze 1+2 is one of the greatest game scores ever written from a genre mixing standpoint. The medium is rarely blessed with such good hybrid rock and jazz and here we get some of the very best in any medium in addition to Tanaka’s orchestral prowess.

This is Tanaka rocking the house with much thematic interplay, pure orchestra on and off, and with truly spectacular moments from smashing guitar solos to dramatic operatic soprano. I hope it can now be properly enjoyed by all.

SirusJr: I responded with an explanation of the reappearance of music from the first game to counter the suspicion of “idleness” and I merely pointed out the fact that many of the orchestral pieces were used for boss stages and thus poorly presented on album. The only reason the music fails on album is how it’s arranged by people who do not care for a proper listening experience. The music itself, conducted by Tanaka and recorded in studio, is beyond fantastic in my opinion. Still buying the soundtrack is the only way to make your voice heared that you want this stuff. I must admit I've moved away from CDs as of late so they are only for physical collection purposes anyways and since when was a Japanese soundtrack listenable back to back from cd ;)

But I’ll admit that Tanaka still holds a special spot in my heart for being the first Japanese composer I’ve grown to adore and idolize so naturally I’m biased as hell when it comes to his music.

@nextday: Thanks for the excellent news! As if spring wasn't crammed enough already :D

tangotreats

02-27-2017, 08:59 PM

Though it pains me GREATLY to admit... ;)

...This improves the listenability of the score tenfold - and the quality of editing here is absolutely FIRST RATE.

Begging the question, why could these lazy bastards not do this when they made the soundtrack album? Why did Tanaka himself not stand up, say "Hang on, chaps, this album sucks and my score is getting the shaft!" and do something about it?

I still stand by my assertion that the scores (both DG and DG2) themselves are too fragmented and genre-schizophrenic to genuinely work as an album, but your work shows the score in its very best light.

May I ask how in the name of bloody hell you did this? Where did the numerous endings come from? How did you figure out which one worked just right with the cue? How could you have done this in such a short space of time????

And, thank you! :)

Vinphonic

02-27-2017, 10:02 PM

Merci :)

Well, I will go into details when I get some sleep but let's just say I pulled an allnighter in my studio ;)

In short: Years of editing stuff, some intuition since I'm very familiar with his music and endless tweaking

Let me tell you, I would not have done this if I didn't love Tanaka so much, especially not for free. I desperately wanted to listen to it in the way I love listening to music.

There was actually another big event to promote the soundtrack these days where Tanaka handsigned and performed with band (he really loves to do that as of late...)

Seeing all this enthusiasm from him and also general interest for the music of this franchise makes me optimistic that the upcoming Studio Japan concert is perhaps not the last pleasant surprise we'll hear.

I also wonder if Tanaka did something for the recent Comikets.

But my unhealthy Tanaka obsession aside, there's some other things I want to address but not for now... onward to bed.

EDIT: Back from the dead and here's some goodies:

Breath of the Wild is not Skyward Sword... but here's a Golden Age epic moment: https://vimeo.com/205987420 [SPOILERS] So much class found in this game (It's also recorded dry as bone which means much can be done with it :D)

Super Robot Wars V has some good moments reminiscent of Sahashi so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqgyaKdpb6A#t=8m38s

Found this little gem, a russian animated movie with good music: If you ever wondered what a "serious" historial epic animated by classic Disney or Dreamworks would look like, something I desperately wanted to see since Mulan and Prince of Egypt, look no further. Berserk Golden Age was the closest we got in animated form... until now.

Krepost (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbDQL8o3Ne8#t=43m22s)

I hope to god keepmovingrecords will release this in the future.

tangotreats

02-28-2017, 10:19 AM

^ That was your post no. 1337. It really had to be. ;)

cryosx

03-01-2017, 10:36 AM

Deleted

PonyoBellanote

03-01-2017, 10:56 AM

Vinphonic, you could warn people your video link of Breath of the Wild contains spoiler. It may be mute and just the music, but it certainly does look like the final cutscene.

tangotreats

03-01-2017, 03:07 PM

Breath of the Wild is not Skyward Sword... but here's a Golden Age epic moment:

Haha, good work editing your original remark in which you compared this score to the very best works of Rozsa and implied that it wiped the floor with Skyward Sword... ;)

99.999% of the score is low-key. There are live musicians most of the time, and I am actually really enjoying it - but orchestral almost all of it ain't, symphonic in its entirety it ain't, and Golden Age is DEFINITELY ain't.

The clip you posted... well, I don't want to be Mr Negative again, but what am I supposed to be listening for here? I hear a tiny, badly-recorded orchestra playing an unimaginative, anaemic arrangement of the original Zelda theme we've heard twenty-thousand times already. Where's the Golden Age epic moment?

SRW5... DO we know who scored this thing yet? It sounds alarmingly amateurish but somehow familiar...

TheSkeletonMan939

03-01-2017, 03:15 PM

Word got out some way or another (I guess it was due to composer credits for the recent Zelda symphony) that Manaka Kataoka is the primary composer (at least, she did the main theme). She's done a good bit of Animal Crossing, which I suppose made her a good choice for an ambient, delicate sound. Like any other 3D Zelda game from the past 15 years, though, I'm sure she had plenty of help.

tangotreats

03-01-2017, 03:22 PM

Ah, thank you, but I was referring to Super Robot Wars 5... To my knowledge the composer of that game still hasn't been announced. :)

TheSkeletonMan939

03-01-2017, 03:33 PM

D'oh... my mistake!

Vinphonic

03-01-2017, 04:56 PM

The clip you posted... well, I don't want to be Mr Negative again, but what am I supposed to be listening for here? I hear a tiny, badly-recorded orchestra playing an unimaginative, anaemic arrangement of the original Zelda theme we've heard twenty-thousand times already. Where's the Golden Age epic moment?

I don't know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gj5aLQIEQo#t=3m50s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn26pEDEhyY#t=41s

and now start the video on 1m42s and you will understand (NOT talking JUST about the music in this case)

And so far we've not yet heared the music for the cutscenes. The gamerip excluded those. Keep in mind Skyward Swords best moments were heared in cutscenes as well. But to be specific the use of choir and orchestra in the last 20s totally evoked that era for me. I may not be of the same quality as all the timeless masterpieces but it sounds to me like it could have easily been written for the end of a film of that time. I see an effort made to end the game on high note with care and I would rather hear this sort of music combined with symbolic visuals than millions of end scenes that just fade to black with pulsing eletronics, rock and pop music playing. But that's just me.

tangotreats

03-01-2017, 09:08 PM

Vinphonic, I am sorry, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I have been a terrific grump lately, even more than usual, and I have directed it at people I consider good friends. I think you're frequently over-complimentary to not-so-good scores, but what crime is enthusiasm and passion? And, anyway, it doesn't for one moment justify me jumping down your throat every time you post. I sincerely apologise. To your credit, and to my own shame, you've responded not with derision, but with patience and examples to help clarify your point of view.

Thank you. :)

TheSkeletonMan939

03-01-2017, 09:17 PM

And so far we've not yet heared the music for the cutscenes. The gamerip excluded those.

I have what I think are the cutscene files; Vector Harbor excluded most of them from his gamerip because they're six channels and have sound effects mixed in. I can gladly upload them separately for you if you'd like. If so, would you prefer original bfstm or flac?

As for the music itself, I think in execution it's meant to be very Skyward Sword-like. I might not explain well, but musical direction seems more focused on being atmospheric rather than having memorable melodies. I've not listened to the whole thing though, just an observation from the small bit I've gone through so far.

Vinphonic

03-01-2017, 11:25 PM

@Tango

Apology accepted, my friend :)

I have a very high level of patience and tolerance for things in general, unless something directly undermines the profession of musicians, composers and engineers (which is why I'm so worked up with current western scoring)
That said, being a tiny bit more optimistic from time to time can't cause much harm, especially when we are talking about music that is still written like they did hundreds of years ago and recorded in studio like the early days of Hollywood. That Japanese games in 2017 can have scores and moments that even remind of the early years of visual entertainment with its roots in classical music and theater is truely marvelous. Right now, nearly every media project in Japan has music recorded with at least a string ensemble in a studio and ORCHESTRAL CONCERTS are being held almost every month now. Let me be as happy and over-enthusiastic as can be about such music because when Japan sinks under the ocean one day, who will keep the torch lit? The flickering embers here and there are not enough to even remotely satiate my appetite.

@SkeletonMan

I could rip bfstm but flac sounds more appealing, Thank you :)

And yes, the game so far is incredibly comfy and the delicate piano and string pieces definetely support the relaxing tribal wildlife vibe.

TheSkeletonMan939

03-02-2017, 02:20 AM

@SkeletonMan

I could rip bfstm but flac sounds more appealing, Thank you :)

Here we go. (https://mega.nz/#!Qs1FRCiT!_jF79m_imBZJswskjhNBPbFyg__sE_o-ViQ3R1772GI) I assumed that anything with the name "demo" was a cutscene file and zipped all those files up.. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

nextday

03-03-2017, 03:43 AM

As for the music itself, I think in execution it's meant to be very Skyward Sword-like. I might not explain well, but musical direction seems more focused on being atmospheric rather than having memorable melodies. I've not listened to the whole thing though, just an observation from the small bit I've gone through so far.
The game credits Hajime Wakai as sound director, so that explains the similarities to Skyward Sword.

We also learned that Yasuaki Iwata composed music for the game. He's a rookie who joined Nintendo in 2013. It's interesting that none of the veteran composers were on board this time.

tangotreats

03-03-2017, 12:04 PM

They have just gone for a COMPLETELY different style. I actually quite like it - once you let go of the "I want this to be a symphonic score!" feeling and just go with it for what it is, it's quite lovely. Properly atmospheric - not just textural harmonic wallpaper, but vividly atmospheric.

Doublehex

03-03-2017, 09:23 PM

I can't believe this is what is making me come back to the Thread.

At this point in time, I hate Breath of the Wild. I haven't been more disappointed by a soundtrack in quite a while. This is not music. This is a bunch of random sounds produced by an orchestra. There is nothing catchy or memorable here, or anything that could be considered complex or interesting.

It is completely forgettable. I mean, I don't need catchiness to know music is good. I want soul, character and charm - I want something that touches you. This is a big giant load of nothing. Nothing new, nothing exciting, nothing old, nothing well trodden. Just a whole bunch of nonsense. I can't even give a star here because there is nothing to give a star TO. How do you give merits to a void?

I don't understand Nintendo here, I really don't. They had a major property that deserves a major orchestral work. Big themes, memorable music, something that stays with you. Instead, they give us random noise.

How the fuck is it that I am the one bashing a score, while Tango is the one giving praise?

hater

03-03-2017, 11:49 PM

it propably would be too much to ask to have the best zelda game having the best music

PonyoBellanote

03-03-2017, 11:58 PM

Holy shit and I thought tangotreats was etilist. I was proven wrong. Never again.

Doublehex

03-04-2017, 12:00 AM

Holy shit and I thought tangotreats was etilist. I was proven wrong. Never again.

If you think I am elitist, you don't know me. I like pretty much everything. I don't get a 600 GB music library by being picky.

streichorchester

03-04-2017, 12:32 AM

I'm getting some Hisaishi vibes from this one. The use of piano, the harmonies, etc.

The Zipper

03-04-2017, 12:49 AM

Holy shit and I thought tangotreats was etilist. I was proven wrong. Never again. You trying to pick a fight here? Calling someone "elitest" when they've provided clear reasons why they don't like something without addressing any of their claims doesn't make you look better than them, it makes you look like a sad brainless fanboy. Try pretending to be a tough shit talker somewhere else.

I'm getting some Hisaishi vibes from this one. The use of piano, the harmonies, etc.I was going to say this as well, especially with the flute usage.

TheSkeletonMan939

03-04-2017, 12:57 AM

I don't think the score for BotW was necessarily ever meant to add material to the canon of "memorable Zelda themes". It's for the most part nondescript tinklings on piano, and the fact that they didn't ask Kondo for any sort of input this time around (as far as I'm aware), when he's been involved in every 3D Zelda game in some capacity, indicates that they were more interested in experimenting.

I haven't played the game yet, so I can't say whether it supplants what could have been sweeping themes well enough. Maybe next time Nintendo will give Zelda the golden orchestral treatment touch which we've been waiting for.

The Zipper

03-04-2017, 01:08 AM

PonyoBellanote

03-04-2017, 01:15 AM

I think the soundtrack sounds the way it does as being the result of being used in an open-world game. Writing a solid symphonic score with solid themes for a game where you spend 90% of the time walking around is practically unheard of. Not even looping would be sufficient. So for better or worse, Nintendo went to the tried and true trend of using ambient music that can serve as background noise to state the mood of the current situation. It does its job. Let us not forget that as good as Ni no Kuni's soundtrack was, it was very poorly utilized in-game.

:this: And even so, still some of the ambient music is pretty neat.

But no, HURR DURR THERE'S NO ORCHESTRA EPIC GOODENSS HERE LIKE ZELDA SHOULD HAVE? SHITTY GAME AND SHITTY MUSIC, BORING!

I mean, come on. I too am a HUGE orchestra lover, and I love Zelda with that, but I understand this is a different game and not for that I shit on the whole music and see no appeal to it, just because it's not a epic orchestra amaze.

HunterTech

03-04-2017, 02:28 AM

But no, HURR DURR THERE'S NO ORCHESTRA EPIC GOODENSS HERE LIKE ZELDA SHOULD HAVE? SHITTY GAME AND SHITTY MUSIC, BORING!

So....did this guy forget this was once an 8 bit series? Must've modified the sound chip to make it "sing" somehow.

Herr Salat

03-04-2017, 03:22 AM

So....did this guy forget this was once an 8 bit series? Must've modified the sound chip to make it "sing" somehow.

The harsh sounds of the samples were due to the limited hardware of the time. But Kondo's writing is still orchestral in mind because the virtual mock-ups mirror an orchestra. There's a podcast episode by composers on Kondo's Link to the Past here (http://www.supermarcatobros.com/podcast/2014/07/27/episode-122-the-legend-of-zelda-a-link-to-the-past) with explanations of which sample mirrors which musical instrument.

In retrospect, and in a sense, the OST of the old games are akin to demos without an orchestra recording.
Vice versa, the OST of the new games, for example Breath of the Wild, are the orchestra recordings of the composers' demos/drafts.

EDIT:
- Forgot. Link to the Past is 16-bit. Zelda 1+2 were the 8-bit ones.
- I may have discounted the genre & medium. If Kondo wrote with the limitations at hand and nothing more in mind (orchestral, which I above can't/didn't prove), it's just what it is: electronic music. The context is important and I shouldn't retroactively just label it all as polished demos. The "live" musician was Kondo using the samples as an instrument.

pensquawk

03-04-2017, 05:21 AM

And as usual I missed the peak of this discussion about Tanaka's Gravity Daze 2 (speaking as an also "creepy" Tanaka fanboy over here) typical me at this point :(, I'll probably have a lot to say about it later, but instead, I shall go with the flow of this discussion, and what a better time to promote scores that are under the theme of adventurer heroes at the wildlife as the recently discussed TLOZ: BOTW, but the next post, believe it or not, is not about that either ;):

Monster Hunter Stories RIDE ON

Arrangement by pensquawk

(in order of appearance)
Marika Suzuki/Masaru Yokoyama/Masato Kouda

Download (http://www.mediafire.com/file/inc3floxsy7y93i/Monster_Hunter_Stories.mp3)

So it caught me off guard to say the very least on how there was an actually "tolerable" Yokoyama score this year, composer who I've shared my distaste in the past of this thread in many occasions before. I never founded anything memorable or interesting about his music, he seems to be a "decent" arranger from what I've seen in that orchestral Steins;Gate arrangement album, but that would be it so far in terms of what he typically does. I always consider his orchestration techniques pretty awkward, making piano and strings the forefront of his work, and having all these resources in budget to make such a bland product really baffled me. But a few days ago, I was told that we would work on the Monster Hunter series, musical work most prominently renowned by it's original composer for the theme, by Masato Kouda (currently doing Konosuba).

And you can clearly see the difference here, the first and final track, not being from Yokoyama, but from Suzuki and Kouda respectively, showing how they're far more advanced in their craft for the orchestral music of this score than Yokoyama will ever be. Nevertheless, I felt like I wanted to make my own take once again in a one-cohesive-piece of orchestral narrative to give the chance for Yokoyama to shine as well, his pieces are bouncy and simple, but I actually felt there was also this heart and wonder put on to it this time, that made me make this post in the first place. Regardless, I always have fun doing these, no additional effects as usual, just merging and using my ear for the arranging of these pieces, and if you want the full score, you can probably find already in the anime threads soundtracks of this forum. As always, enjoy! :)

tangotreats

03-04-2017, 10:07 PM

Elitist

I think it really IS time to change this particular record, now.

Doublehex: Welcome back, and I'm fascinated to hear your thoughts!

I'm probably more forgiving of BoTW because Zelda has been in a musical rut for decades. Like Dragon Quest, it's been played and re-played to death and back. Over the years it's had scores in a variety of styles; most recently in 2011's Super Zelda Galaxy.

BoTW goes for subtlety, and there seems to be a conscious effort here to go in a completely new and original musical direction; revolution against the evolution of the previous games in the series. I am most interested in the moments of pure atmosphere and pure texture; what it lacks in power and recognisable melody, it makes up for (in my opinion only) in a sheen of class and an effort to say as much as possible with the fewest possible notes. It is pure mood. I like that. Yes, a big orchestral extravaganza would've been nice, but this is Nintendo - we were never going to get that - I thought it was going to be a race between some amateurish cheap electronic shit and more of the same that went before. Instead, option 3 came out - a score that sounds perhaps like no game score we've heard before, and one that operates with a level of cautious restraint possibly unknown in Japanese media music.

Maybe it's a cultural thing... This score speaks to me disproportionately because, to me, it's the musical equivalent of the British stiff upper lip. A simple, understated, unfussy exterior which hides a mess of exposed emotional turmoil underneath. What's actually going on is implied by the exterior and if you're sensitive to it, the implication is quite clear - tension is derived from that which is unspoken - emotions and reactions to emotions are implied, not stated. That's how it plays, to me.

I'm not saying I think it's a great score, nor is it in a genre I find particularly enjoyable... but I have found infinitely more to enjoy in here than in Skyward Sword.

Herr Salat raises excellent points; whilst Kondo's scores are restricted as far as performance quality, the musical heart beats with symphonic sensibilities. The sound chip may not "sing" but the music certainly does. To paraphrase a quote I believe was about Bach, that music is better than we will ever hear it performed. Restrictive performance of the day forced composers to think more and make every note count. Melodies were overt and recognisable - and yet they are proper "scores" - not just musical textures, but music of value.

The Zipper also makes a good point, touching on what the recent Gravity Daze discussion provoked. Ni No Kuni works GREAT on album, which means it probably doesn't work that well in game. That is the choice faced by producers; the duration of scenes in a game depends on the pace at which you play, and you can even impact the narrative. A music cue that tells a story and is evocative on a CD or in the concert hall must, by definition, sacrifice its ability to tell a story within the game. Producers experiment from time to time with technology that changes music as you play; thickening up instrumentation as you progress through a boss battle, marking your actions with musical tags, for example - but this rarely works out well and games end up with scores which are genuine background music and nothing more. You either give up the music's functionality in the game to make the music better, or you give up the quality of the music so that it can be better used in the game.

This is why film scores can be so, so much greater. A film score at its best can be written like an opera. You can't write an opera if the audience decide whether the scene takes 10 seconds of 10 minutes and the protagonist might win a fight with the bad guy easily, or it might be a difficult victory, or he might die...

pensquawk: Thank you for this - I didn't even know it had been released! Yokoyama... is Yokoyama. The pieces by the other composers stick out - particularly the tiny-orchestra version of the famous Monster Hunter theme at the end. I have a feeling your suite presents the score in its best possible light. :)

---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

NEWS: Naotora OST 2 on April 5th. :D

Vinphonic

03-04-2017, 11:19 PM

This is my personal opinion of course but I just don't get turning game music into a technical science. It doesn't need all these overcomplicated mechanisms and loop procedures (in my opinion).

For environmental/situational cues

A: Record different versions of each track with different tempo/intensity/dynamics/instrumentation etc.

B: Record intro and outro stingers for each version

C: Instead of looping, let each cue proberly finish and then let it IMMEDIATELY start again with no pause. Make it so that the intro starting right after the outro feels natural.

D: If there's a change ingame that needs a new version triggered, let the end stinger play instantly and then immidientely start the intro for the new version (which again, should sound natural).

E: On the soundtrack include all versions with intro and outro, either as a single track that builds, or separate versions as recorded.

I think this approach works the best (for my enjoyment of music in a game at least).

@Doublehex: Glad to see you still alive and well (quite vividly) after all these years.

Maybe it's just me but isn't there an "orchestral" score in cutscenes? Certain characters have recurring motifs and the boss battles feature a full ensemble + choir. It would be nice if the final orchestral pieces were part of a larger symphonic body but I would argue there are some beautiful moments in the story so far. Almost all famous pieces appear, but arranged and played very differently and as Tango said, quite understated. But I always liked the Hyrule Castle theme on piano since Wind Waker...

I've tried to play it with an orchestral overworld theme but I just had to turn it off quickly. The choice of "background" score was deliberate and must have undergone heavy discussion, but ultimately I understand why they went in the direction they did. That said the End Credits disappoint, especially compared to Skyward Sword. A little bit more would have been nice. Last Guardian did it better. Overall there is much to enjoy, but I totally see your point that there is almost nothing to take home with.

evilwurst

03-05-2017, 11:15 PM

Even that much may be otherthinking it. Rather than solving the game issue first and the building the soundtrack out of the parts, it may be even easier to compose as a soundtrack first and let the computer handle the game order later.

I mean, strict repeats and variations have been part of traditional music for ages already, right? You could probably just write in a mostly normal symphony-like style, with the knowledge that every two movements of your work will be broken into logical blocks that one level of the game will play back in whatever order it needs to. You do need to consider that things will be looped and re-ordered, but you don't immediately have to figure out exactly what ways it'll happen - only write in a way that has a large enough number of short-enough blocks. I wouldn't even worry too much about the transitions in the game - naturally, the faster those are happening in the game, the more busy the player already is with playing it, right? - whereas the transitions have to flow naturally in the linear standalone soundtrack CD version.

You could probably do an entire game soundtrack with this technique just by disassembling a couple Beethoven symphonies.

streichorchester

03-06-2017, 05:40 AM

You do need to consider that things will be looped and re-ordered, but you don't immediately have to figure out exactly what ways it'll happen - only write in a way that has a large enough number of short-enough blocks.

I too enjoy Poulenc.

nextday

03-06-2017, 02:58 PM

PonyoBellanote

03-06-2017, 03:18 PM

I saw that Square Enix is releasing a Kingdom Hearts orchestra album.

Yoko Shimomura and Kaoru Wada recorded something with the Czech National Symphony Orchestra about a month ago. I wonder what it was for. ;)

YES! YES! ALL OF MY YES! When is it releasing? All of Kaoru's arrangements for KH have been fantastic, so I really look forward to them, but I hope it brings new arrangements and not just the same thing again...

Vinphonic

03-06-2017, 03:33 PM

So it turned out my post a while ago was quite prophetic :D

Which begs the question... what long-running Japanese game series are left that have yet to recieve this treatment? Kirby is finally getting it this year, Star Fox already had a quasi-orchestral album (called Star Fox Assault) and Mario already has a billion concert arrangements. Unless we go into niche territory like Valkyria Chronicles, Ace Combat, Megaman, Castlevania or Metroid and perhaps a proper Fire Emblem album I can think of nothing else right now. And yet all I've listed already have at least one or two concert arrangements with the best stuff already performed, so it would not be a huge loss if we don't get anything (well, aside from Castlevania).

PonyoBellanote

03-06-2017, 03:38 PM

Star Fox has never received orchestra arrangements for albums.. as much as the other series. For Star Fox, there's the wonderful SNES Star Fox theme in the Volume 3 of a certain CD series of Orchestra Videogame Music Arrangements. There's also the Symphonic Fantasies or whatever? That never got a CD release though it was a wonderful suite. But that may be it. Star Fox Assault is indeed the one and so far only game with proper ochestrated live music, which was pretty GOOD, but no, never received and official CD - just a magazine promo which is very limited and wouldn't count it much..

I really would love for a Star Fox Assault complete soundtrack in CD form though. But that won't ever happen. Or a Star Fox Orchestra Album. Come on, the music of Star Fox is meant to be orchestrated. It's space opera, people.

Sirusjr

03-07-2017, 02:00 AM

I have to echo the disappointment with what I've heard so far with Breath of the Wild but after playing The Witcher 3 (and still going) and not finding the music in there particularly to my liking I am not surprised. Nor am I surprised that the music for Horizon Zero Dawn is largely uninteresting as well. It is just the nature of the open world game beast. When the game doesn't have big cinematics to tell the story like we used to have, and most of the story is told through dialogue in interactions between the player and other characters, there is no need for that style of music. I find myself putting on other orchestral music while playing The Witcher 3 because the music in game, while effective at creating a certain mood, isn't the sort of mood I want when I am playing a game. Then again I have gotten used to this shift in the style of music we get for games and come to expect it for the most part. It is part of why I don't search out game scores as much as I used to.

That being said, I also have little interest in the sort of atmospheric music that game developers want in their games. It doesn't appeal to me. Proper textures were created in the past with the golden age composers but now most modern composers' similar attempts fall flat to me. Though just in time Kritzerland released Two for The Road by Mancini and that helps quite a bit. It is a labor of love for sure but also one that came out just in time for me to want to listen to that style of music.

@Vinphonic - Also many thanks to Vinphonic for your efforts with this score to present it in a way that is more listenable. I shall dive into it sometime soon.

The Zipper

03-07-2017, 09:24 AM

I'm not the biggest Kenji Kawai fan out there, but for those of you who are, I'm so so sorry for what you're about to go through:

https://twitter.com/GhostInShell/status/838479496390967297

Vinphonic

03-07-2017, 12:07 PM

@Sirusjr: Thanks :)

Regarding open world games: I don't think it has to do with the genre. Look at Outcast, or Age of Pirates, or Everquest, some of the finest symphonic scores in gaming, and all pretty much written for an "open world type" game (once upon a time just called action-adventures). There's a reason the score for Age of Pirates works beautifully while playing Witcher 3. Infact, that genre is more suited for symphonic music than anything else because you primarily score not the characters and story but "landscapes" and "nature" and "battles that can last up to ten minutes", meaning a more freeflowing and not time-restricted musical form. The problem is most western composers working today, especially game composers, are just too illiterate in classical writing to even attempt a symphonic form, even when the game calls for it and producers request it. It's the reason we hear so much electronic and atmospheric nothingeness in (western) games with a noticeable lack of melody, themes and musical structure, because it takes almost no effort and is the limited horizon of "composers" these days. Golden Age composers had one foot in the classical realm so its no surprise they wrote superior orchestral music. Once again knowledge and education is key.

But to lighten the mood a little bit, here's (yet another) upcoming game concert in march with the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra, 8bit Prince Symphony Concert (http://www.2083.jp/8bitPSC/), featuring new music from Granblue, FF XV, Xenoblade, Shovel Knight and many more...

@Zipper: KILL ME

Sirusjr

03-08-2017, 12:01 AM

Word is John Powell is releasing a CD of his choral works for concert orchestra later this year including his "Prussian Requiem" and "The Prize is Still Mine" along with another work he has yet to write.

nextday

03-08-2017, 09:35 PM

Shimomura revealed the arrangers for the KH concert today: Kaoru Wada, Sachiko Miyano, Natsumi Kameoka, and Souhei Kano. So it's safe to say there will be some new arrangements in the mix.

CD releases tomorrow in Japan but it will only be available for purchase at the concert (no online sales have been announced).

tangotreats

03-08-2017, 10:06 PM

Wow, one minute he's not doing anything for years on end, then suddenly he's turning up just about everywhere...

WHY CAN'T HE COMPOSE SOMETHING AGAIN?!!?!!

PonyoBellanote

03-08-2017, 10:28 PM

I'm excited and look forward for his new jobs this year. Always liked John Powell.

Sirusjr

03-09-2017, 02:13 AM

First listen of the new Patrick Doyle score for "A United Kingdom" and I expect I'll end up buying this. Gorgeous main theme, a true return to form for Doyle!

Doublehex

03-09-2017, 04:22 AM

I'm not the biggest Kenji Kawai fan out there, but for those of you who are, I'm so so sorry for what you're about to go through:

https://twitter.com/GhostInShell/status/838479496390967297

Well, if it's any consolation, the entirety of the internet seems to agree that is a dogshit remix.

tangotreats

03-09-2017, 10:48 AM

John Powell is one of those guys who is fifty times better than any of his known scores indicate. I'm interested to hear this - the samples are quite intriguing.

In saying "why can't be compose something again?" I was actually referring to Souhei Kano - one of the best there is, and he's wasting away doing arrangements of bad music by sub-par composers.

nextday

03-09-2017, 11:54 AM

I'll take arrangements over nothing. A talented orchestrator can turn bad music into good music.

pensquawk

03-09-2017, 06:38 PM

Hey, at least Kano is hopping onto more well reknown franchises to arrange for, if anything, that seems like a step up and for the possibility to compose something eventually. I mean, I would've LOVED to see what he could've done with one of the pieces of that LOZ 30th Anniversary concert, but his take on Kingdom Hearts will seem interesting to hear as well!

nextday

03-09-2017, 09:30 PM

Michiru Oshima posted a 6 month update on Facebook:

- Little Witch Academia: the first half was recorded in Boston, second half was recorded in Paris.
- Recorded music for the movie "Yoru wa Mijikashi Arukeyo Otome" which will be released in April
- Recorded music for a Chinese movie that will be released in April (name not published)
- The Budapest recording was for a game project (name not published)
- Currently working on a new project in America
- Other works include the theme for an NHK program airing in April and a song written for violinist Emiri Miyamoto

...and released today: Double Concertino ~ Kazabue (http://picosong.com/Gi4x/)

Mika Stoltzman (marimba) & Richard Stoltzman (clarinet) with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project, conducted by Gil Rose

streichorchester

03-09-2017, 10:49 PM

Nice piece, but the tuning seems to be a bit flat, probably due to the vibrato.

Vinphonic

03-10-2017, 01:38 AM

PW: cgdct (https://anon.click/yiwom45)

Walk in the Sky (http://picosong.com/GiTd)

In other news, here are a few more samples from the next generation of anime composers... and what do you know, they should have scored Precure instead if you ask me. Satoshi Hono sticks out with his classical sensibilities and dead-on impression of Takaki and Tatsuya. Walk in the Sky is very Hisaishi-esque. He's one to watch (I suspect he could handle a Tytania). As for the two lovely ladies: I would put Hanae Nakamura beside Ruka Kawada, great for scoring cgdct. I feel Natsumi Tabuchi deserves a chance with a full orchestral ensemble in the future.

nextday

03-10-2017, 02:31 AM

Wow, she is quite busy around the world this year. But thats normal for a worldclass composer I guess. As always I can't wait to hear it. Interesting that Budapest is for a game project. Is it confirmed that its not just a Twilight Princess commission but an actual score?
It would seem a bit strange to hire the Budapest Symphony Orchestra simply for a commission. Then again, she recorded a game commission in Sydney back in 2014 (which will be released (https://app.famitsu.com/20170124_953376/) soon).

Hopefully the Budapest project won't take 3 years to release.

Edit: In other news...

- The Sengoku Gakuen's Composer Festival 2017 will feature Nobuo Uematsu, Toshiyuki Watanabe, Kosuke Yamashita, and Kohei Tanaka. Each composer is expected to premiere a new work at the concert. Remember that the 2016 concert was uploaded (Thread 57893) on YouTube, so you can probably expect this one to be uploaded as well. It will take place in June. (note: the 2016 concert wasn't uploaded until September)

- Souhei Kano re-tweeted news about a new movie by Yutaka Yamamoto, director of Fractale. No composer has been announced for the project.

- Keiji Inai wrapped up a 3 day recording session for Sword Oratoria.

nextday

03-12-2017, 06:54 AM

KH orchestra was uploaded to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUvXh56eIUP455c_7pHHkpmtUma5irURs

Kaoru Wada: 01, 04, 05, 10
Natsumi Kameoka: 02, 06, 09, 11
Sachiko Miyano: 03, 08, 12
Souhei Kano: 07

There are 5 tracks from the concert that did not make it on the CD. I will *hopefully* receive this album some time this week. It sounds great.

PonyoBellanote

03-12-2017, 12:35 PM

KH orchestra was uploaded to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUvXh56eIUP455c_7pHHkpmtUma5irURs

Sounds pretty decent. There's some sort of "live" feel to it and I like it. Doesn't sound as good as the Kaoru Wada renditions of the original soundtracks but they sound good. I like that we get some new arrangements of melodies never heard before with such a treatment though. I don't know why I like Kaoru Wada's renditions best. But overall a pretty decent album and I'm glad it's available to those who can't attend.

tangotreats

03-12-2017, 06:28 PM

Well, Souhei Kano's track is the best on the album as expected (even though it completely overdoes the percussion as is the style these days and though it's obvious it's him, his stylistic tendencies are more buried here than in his previous orchestration work) - though an orchestrator can NOT turn bad music into good music; s/he can only make the bad music sound as good as it possibly can. Kameoka's are solid, Miyano's are exactly what you would expect, and if I'm not mistaken, Wada's are all recycled?

Still worth hearing. :D

The Zipper

03-12-2017, 07:32 PM

I'm not too familiar with Wada's music, but there is no way he can recycle more than Senju.

pensquawk

03-12-2017, 09:35 PM

I'm not too familiar with Wada's music, but there is no way he can recycle more than Senju.

I think what he meant in terms of "recycled", is that these were reused orchestrations by Wada of previous Kingdom Heart concerts, it's not very odd considering he's been on the side of many of Yoko Shinomura's works lately (most recently, FF XV).

As for the concert, I liked it! Any idea where was this recorded?... Though, I don't think I'm in the same boat about Souhei Kano's arrangement, not that is bad or anything, but it sounds at points so... restricted... there's hardly anything from Kano's style of orchestration I can discern from on this time around. Maybe my ear is not very used to hear him with a bigger ensemble yet or they needed to keep it as faithful as to the original pieces, but it let me sort of unsatisfied from what I expect of his wonderful input. I think I like Kameoka's the most here.

Also, Tanaka's Onihei is finally out!

Vinphonic

03-12-2017, 10:25 PM

@pensquak: :O That flew completely under my radar. Thanks for the news, some delightful Jazz awaits :D

@Zipper: HAHAHAHAHA... no, you simply don't know Wada ;)

But in seriousness, here's a selection of my favorites I have prepared for another occassion but incase someone in here is not familiar with Wada I suggest you give this a try:

The Legacy of Japan
Kaoru Wada
Composer Selections

PW: copypaste (https://anon.click/lolip34)

Kaoru Wada is a classical trained concertesque composer who scores mainly anime with a somewhat similar vibe to Elmer Bernstein and occasionally James Horner for the use of eastern/folk scales. His Magnum Opus in my eyes is Inuyasha which even recieved two symphonic renditions. It's an evergreen in my book and a remarkable score in the anime landscape. It's true that much is recycled from previous works but I believe his devices and blueprints never worked better here. I've combined all of Kaoru Wada's contributions of those two symphonic albums to a single Orchestra album with 30 minutes of symphonic highlights from the series. Prinzess Tutu is a rare case where Wada directly adapts themes from Tchaikovsky and I have to say his bouncy variation of the Nutcracker Overture is delightful. The rest is sort of a best of from the ballet world. Casshern Sins is visual poetry and the music can have likewise characteristics if a bit generic sounding by Wada standards. Even if most of his work sounds incredibly repetitive and uninspired on album, I would rather hear this kind of music in media than about a billion Zimmers or Sawanos. But the songs and the use of the music in the show won me over completely. The Mars Daybreak is a baller almost swashbuckling score full of (the good kind of) percussion onslaught and delightful choral elements. D.Gray-man Hallow is a long-awaited return to top-form and Wada seems to have injected new life into his old compositions from the previous series. It's all delightful oldschool orchestral acrobatics. His concert works are different beasts indeed, an onslaught of Japanese instruments, frentic and relentless and totally captivating. In recent years (and today) he worked on the sidelines as an orchestrator and arranger, and I have to say his pop arrangements are pure gold.

Regarding the "official" Kingdom Hearts album I wonder why they omitted the fanfavorite pieces on cd?

tangotreats

03-12-2017, 10:35 PM

Quite - I meant that I didn't think he has contributed anything new, only that his pre-existing orchestrations were performed at the concert.

Kano has definitely been told to tone it down - but the wind and brass heavy arrangement and the blasts of dissonance a-la Hirano both give the game away. (At 2:55, those arpeggios are passed around the woodwind section with such a deft touch that you barely notice what's going on - but Fractale is bubbling away under the surface. I feel like I can feel his style in every note, although there is definitely a conscious effort to tame some of the more "unconventional" aspects of his style. I am tired of hearing such a talented musician rotting away on projects like this - essentially becoming a slightly-glorified music copyist for composers who barely deserve the title - in one single outing as composer (the superlative Fractale) he utterly nailed it, established a clear and individual style, and revealed a talent that I would say outdoes 95% of the composers currently working and severely challenges the very cream of the crop - even Hirano needs to watch out. He did this in one score for one television anime. Give him a big orchestra, creative freedom, and the right project and he will produce the finest score in the history of anime, full stop.

streichorchester

03-13-2017, 03:45 AM

But in seriousness, here's a selection of my favorites I have prepared for another occassion but incase someone in here is not familiar with Wada I suggest you give this a try:

Where is Samurai 7?

Vinphonic

03-13-2017, 11:00 AM

In vol. 2 ;)

@Tango: Kano can get right in line with Katsuro Taijima, Wataru Hokoyama, Tomoyuki Asakawa and Yuji Nomi.

amish

03-14-2017, 02:06 AM

LUX CENTURIAE by Kaoru Wada (2015) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDAPHxM2iog)
Hyogo PAC Orchestra

tangotreats

03-14-2017, 05:56 PM

In vol. 2 ;)

@Tango: Kano can get right in line with Katsuro Taijima, Wataru Hokoyama, Tomoyuki Asakawa and Yuji Nomi.

Taijima, Hokoyama, and Nomi have all had their chance working will full-size symphony orchestras. Asakawa hasn't, but he has at least written a number of excellent scores (some of them quite substantial) which give a very good overview of his skill - and let us not forget that Asakawa's principal career is as a performer - a career at which he has been phenomenally successful over the past thirty years. Don't get me wrong, it's criminal that he doesn't write more and very few things would make me happier than seeing him make another big outing as a composer... but at the very least he's been allowed to exercise that side of his musical psyche more than once and composition has always been a hobby for him to fit in around his "day job" as a world-class harpist.

Souhei Kano has written *one* score - and not a massive one - for an under-sized ensemble, and is now completely invisible except for providing orchestrations for crap projects of crap scores by crap composers. He is a musical Shakespeare; it's like he's been allowed to write one chapter of Hamlet and then forced to scrape a career as a copyist for Barbara Cartland.

Vinphonic

03-14-2017, 09:51 PM

True, but in principle they are all composers I desperately want to hear more of. I would even add Hitoshi Sakimoto and Shiro Hamaguchi to the list, for the fact that their brilliant film composer personas are not even close to be at full potential. Hamaguchi's last "true" film score was Princess and the Pilot in 2011 and Sakimoto's last film score was Druaga in 2009.

Oh... and Hayato Matsuo of course... which reminds me:

Why does it take so long!!!!!!!! (http://picosong.com/pRXa)

JBarron2005

03-14-2017, 11:06 PM

Wow, one minute he's not doing anything for years on end, then suddenly he's turning up just about everywhere...

WHY CAN'T HE COMPOSE SOMETHING AGAIN?!!?!!

I believe his wife passed away the night of the premiere of Prussian Requiem. He then took time off from composing to heal. That might explain why he wasn't the only composer on Jason Bourne.

Yuphonic

03-15-2017, 01:06 AM

Oh... and Hayato Matsuo of course... which reminds me:

Why does it take so long!!!!!!!! (http://picosong.com/pRXa)

Was a release ever confirmed?

The Zipper

03-15-2017, 04:09 AM

@Zipper: HAHAHAHAHA... no, you simply don't know Wada ;)

But in seriousness, here's a selection of my favorites I have prepared for another occassion but incase someone in here is not familiar with Wada I suggest you give this a try:Oh my, now I'm curious. Thanks for the compilation, Vinphonic, I'll go listen to it later. I do remember watching Inuyasha years ago but not remember much of the music, but hopefully I can get something out of this.

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------

So I know we've all been talking about how common it is for silly anime projects to be getting the symphonic orchestra treatment, but occasionally, and I mean VERY occasionally, the same thing happens in the west with equally silly kids' movies.

I would like to bring everyone's attention to Nathan Furst's soundtrack for Bionicle: Mask of Light, an old Direct-to-Video CGI movie from 2003 made to promote a bunch of (now dead, twice) plastic Lego action figures. Despite the source material being what it is, Furst was given a decently-sized orchestra to write a full symphonic soundtrack. Unfortunately, the soundtrack was never officially released, with some bits and pieces of it popping up online. However, finally after 14 years, Furst was able to get permission to remaster and officially release it. As someone who was a big fan of the franchise back when this movie came out, this soundtrack holds a special place on my heart. Unlike typical Holywood productions, Furst was given nearly total creative freedom when he wrote this, and it shows. He also didn't have to work with temp tracks, and in a very rare occasion for any western production, some scenes in the cartoon were even animated to the soundtrack. Because this rerelease was clearly a labor of love on Furst's part that had nothing to do with the producers (Lego and Miramax), I unfortunately can't link any downloads for this soundtrack, because I would love for him to get the means to release the soundtrack for the other two Bionicle movies. You can buy parts of the soundtrack in your usual places like Amazon and iTunes, but for those who want a sample:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YedN4tXdO2U

Furst said himself his two biggest influences for this soundtrack were Williams and Silvestri. Whether or not the influences show, well, that's for your ears to decide.

One-minute samples can be found here:

https://us.7digital.com/artist/nathan-furst/release/bionicle-mask-of-light-original-soundtrack-14th-anniversary-6230039?f=20%2C19%2C12%2C16%2C17%2C9%2C2

Of course, if you all really wanted to listen to the whole thing, it's not very hard to find.

tangotreats

03-15-2017, 01:53 PM

Thank you very much for the guidance - I listened to the sample on Youtube and the samples on 7digital, but I just couldn't get past the bargain-basement synth (there's no orchestra in there) and the generally poor quality music. Furst has his moments... I don't think this is one of them... Infinitely grateful for the pointer though, as always. :)

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

I believe his wife passed away the night of the premiere of Prussian Requiem. He then took time off from composing to heal. That might explain why he wasn't the only composer on Jason Bourne.

Again, I was referring to Souhei Kano, not John Powell - I'm looking forward to hearing Powell's classical work and I believe it will outclass his film scores... but in a choice between more Powell and more Kano...

Vinphonic

03-15-2017, 02:45 PM

If nothing else, Bionicle has the right idea. Give the synths some slack Tango, 2003 is not 2017 with Sample Modeling V3 with Breath Controller 2.0 and Berlin Orchestra (still missing the mutes and effects for brass).

Was a release ever confirmed?

I wish :(

At least we will get a few tracks thanks to the BDs.

PonyoBellanote

03-15-2017, 02:47 PM

I mean, it was a direct-to-video movie with a low budget than usual. The score although synth, is good enough.

Vinphonic

03-15-2017, 04:27 PM

LUX CENTURIAE by Kaoru Wada (2015) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDAPHxM2iog)
Hyogo PAC Orchestra

Kaoru Wada
LUX CENTURIAE
Hyogo Performing Arts Centre Orchestra

PW: Nikon (https://anon.click/dofod45)

1st Movement - Genesis
2nd Movement - Rebirth
3rd Movement - Breakthrough
4th Movement - Ascending

Dedicated to opening of the Nikon museum for the 100th Anniversary of Nikon company. Music composed and conducted by Kaoru Wada.

http://www.nikon.com/

TheSkeletonMan939

03-15-2017, 05:41 PM

On Bionicle - I think it's a wonderful score! I think the idea of using a sampler to convincingly "replace" a costly real orchestral score was still in its youth at the time (2003), and all things considered Furst did a nice job at making everything sound as real as he could. Themes and motifs are introduced intelligently and definitely feel like they have a real stake in the score as opposed to just wandering about. He says it's "remastered" (which could mean anything) and speaking of the mastering, it's not too great. It feels compressed, stuffy. It doesn't sound 'bad' necessarily, but it feels rather dry. Maybe he didn't have the multitracks anymore, or the time to really beef up and augment the sound... it could sound better is what I'm trying to say. The age of the score probably plays a factor here as well.

Furst has estimated that if it were performed live, the score would require a hundred-piece orchestra in addition to specialized instruments and vocalists... indeed, he made liberal use of ethnic chants, percussion, etc. to give the Bionicle world a curious tribal vibe. This is particularly present in the Koli match cue (a Bionicle sport), being percussion-driven with some neat trilling thrown in at one point. It's not something you hear very often in films, DTV or otherwise (the scene was cut to Furst's music here).

Unlike typical Holywood productions, Furst was given nearly total creative freedom when he wrote this, and it shows. He also didn't have to work with temp tracks, and in a very rare occasion for any western production, some scenes in the cartoon were even animated to the soundtrack.

Yeah, he pretty much was given a brief overview of the mythos and that was it. I don't even think he read the full script; they sent finished scenes to him and he'd score them as they'd come along. As a young composer I'm sure he enjoyed the rare opportunity for such autonomy in shaping how the film sounded, and today he still looks fondly on his time on the films.

Furst said himself his two biggest influences for this soundtrack were Williams and Silvestri. Whether or not the influences show, well, that's for your ears to decide.

I don't know much Silvestri, but you can hear the Williams influences for sure. Near the end of track 1 there are some warm, quivering strings that definitely remind me of the sound for the first Harry Potter movie.

He lost a lot of the second film in a hard drive crash, but I would hope that he could inquire about a studio archival copy if he were seriously interested in releasing it. I don't think he's said if he has anything left from film number 3 outside of a few stray cues. As I recall the second movie has a techno spin in place of the tribal atmosphere, and the third is orchestral in general.
Here's an interview from just before the film came out, for those interested in how Furst went about scoring it. (http://www.maskofdestiny.com/story/movies/Bricktalk_Furst_Words_44738.asp)

tangotreats

03-15-2017, 06:31 PM

I'm not quite sure why I've got everyone's back up by saying the synth is poor - I said as much because a) it's true (regardless of the state of technology at the time and the undeniable budgetary constraints Furst was placed under) and b) to correct an incorrect statement earlier to the effect that the score was performed by a "decently-sized orchestra" which it wasn't.

I was also careful to follow up (predicting some variation on "synthesizer technology was in its infancy in 2003!" / "The film is low budget - what do you expect?") that I didn't enjoy the *music* either - I have been very forgiving of scores with nasty sound quality, bad orchestras, or no orchestras in the past if I could find something in the music to attach to; in this case, I couldn't.

Very interested to hear what others think, as usual - I am not feeling this score, which is subjective. It is not performed by an orchestra, and the synthesizer in use is not particularly good - both objective. :)

The Zipper

03-15-2017, 07:19 PM

I always assumed the muted sound was because of the poor recording quality (something that is often confused with synth), and some parts of it were synth like the choir, but upon listening to it again, you're right, it is 100% synth. It's a shame this never got the full movie theater orchestra treatment (how much of an orchestra did Brian Tyler get Lego Universe get again?), but the effort and thought put into this composition still puts 99% of what's being churned out today in Hollywood to shame. I haven't actually listened to Furst's other scores, but unsurprisingly, he's not very prolific. Such is the fate of people who don't want to become Zimmer clones (unless you're Giacchino, to which that's a whole other issue).

Here's an interview from just before the film came out, for those interested in how Furst went about scoring it.
Thanks for posting this, interesting to hear that Furst was classically trained but dropped out of college halfway.

Vinphonic

03-15-2017, 07:22 PM

Verta-style :D

Sirusjr

03-16-2017, 01:54 AM

So does anyone know much about "Legend of Zelda: Symphony of the Goddesses" ?

I'm seeing it is touring but missing from all the materials is any indication of what orchestra is performing this. Are they working with local symphonies to have a difference group each time?

Vinphonic

03-16-2017, 02:21 AM

Souhei Kano‘s poetic masterpiece
Fractale
Tokyo Studio Orchestra and Chorus / Remastered by Vinphonic

PW: DailyBread (https://anon.click/kewuv65)

Six years have passed since Souhei Kano wrote Fractale and I think it’s now time ro revisit one of the greatest masterpieces inside (and outside) the media world. The Japanese Animation industry once again demonstrated just how much of it is comprised of pure artistry. Fractale as a whole is in many ways a piece of vision that encapsulates the primary dilemma of our times. We as a civilization stand now at the crossroads of mankind’s future: Through technological progress we now have a utopian world within our grasp that could very well be realized within our lifetimes, but on the other hand we still have a world in flames and stuck in regressive ways, not yet ready for the next step for humanity.

Fractale showed the possibility of such a utopian world… but with a twist of course whose reveal and resolution was not as satisfactory as the premise indicated. The show ultimately failed… but the music on the other hand very much succeeded. Replace Fractale with Automation and the lyrics in the score could be a poem about our digital times.

The score is highly classical in nature but with many characteristic you would normally attribute to the likes of Hirano with the use of atonality, choir and soprano. It is a concert score disguised as a television score. Half of it is performed by a chamber ensemble and full of jauntiness and playfulness. A lighthearted dance of strings, piano and woodwinds. But the meat is with the the choral pieces: The centerpiece of the score is the song for Fractale itself, first heard in “The Temple’s Prayers” and in full glory in ”From the Labor and the Hard Work” a beautiful poem/prayer that can also be considered a villain theme in the story. The second piece in particular is one of the greatest musical pieces ever written for media. It rivals Yoko Kanno’s and Yoshihisa Hirano’s best moments. There’s also a heroic fantasy score woven in there, respectively at the beginning and at the end. The violin harmonics in combination with celeste and glockenspiel at the end of “The Sacrificial Maiden” is one of my favorite devices in any film score. The final piece “A Journey to the Future” is a concert piece on its own, rapidly flying between the sections and finishing the score with a rousing climax that few film scores can match. Here his wind orchestra background is the most apparent.

For a debut score it’s full of confidence in mastery of the orchestra you would expect to feel from an old veteran decades in the business, not someone in their early 30s just entering it. Granted Kano already wrote various concert pieces and even an opera before this but still… the work he did for this television anime is easily among the greatest media scores ever written. Not even geniuses like Iwasaki and Hisaishi had this level of mastery and ingenuity from day one.

A terrible terrible shame nothing more came out of this brilliant debut. The show being a niche within a niche and also a commercially failing one at that didn’t help matters either. He shares the same fate as Yu Tsuji in that regard. But at least he is attached to truly big names now and I’m sure when someone famous has to decline a project for one of those, there’s the slim chance he will get another chance to show his level of genius once more.

For this remastering project I approached it not like a TV score but as a concert score so I’ve tried to match the raw audio to concert acoustics with every tool at my disposal. Now there’s a certain “Live Album” sound to it. I hope the results are improving your listening experience.

Please enjoy!

The Zipper

03-16-2017, 03:22 AM

There is always the small chance that Yutaka Yamamoto (Fractale's director) will bring back Kano for his next project:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-03-08/yutaka-yamamoto-will-produce-twilight-anime-film-even-if-crowdfunding-fails/.113081

Of course, Yamakan is a fickle person who has been rolling in nothing but failures since Fractale, so I have no idea what he plans for this project.

Sunstrider

03-16-2017, 04:34 AM

Souhei Kano�s poetic masterpiece
Fractale
Tokyo Studio Orchestra and Chorus / Remastered by Vinphonic

PW: DailyBread (https://anon.click/kewuv65)

Super! Many thanks for sharing!

tangotreats

03-16-2017, 10:33 AM

Thank you for this, Vinphonic...

Is anybody familiar with the story (and movie - with a superb score by Bernard Herrmann) of Fahrenheit 451? Briefly summarising, books are banned and burned by the government whenever found, so a group of humans take it upon themselves to preserve great works of literature by BECOMING their chosen book - memorising every last word.

If a similar system were necessary for works of music, mine would be Souhei Kano's score for Fractale. It does EVERYTHING. It is a concert hall musical drama, through and through. It is a score that doesn't try only to provide background mood music, but which weaves its own story - with considerably more skill and clarity than the show itself. It is otherworldly and innately familiar. It is harsh and gentle, dissonant and consonant, textural and lyrical. It's music, of a quality one might hope to attain as a magnum-opus, summing up a long and prestigious career in one final statement of artistic glory - instead, it was written by someone as their scoring debut barely out of their twenties. (And it's orchestrated TO THE HILT.)

Every note is a highlight to me, but to mention a few standouts:

THAT THEME (first heard on cor anglais with a string drone in Into This Bleak World) - has a more evocative melody EVER been heard in a film or television score?

Granitz' Combat - Kano's experimental cue in which absolutely everything gets thrown in the pot and mixed up into a frenzy - drum machine and pop organ mix with the full orchestra in a deliciously complicated fugue - a lot of the cue is tonally ambiguous but occasionally shifts into almost-conventional sounds. Off-balance, claustrophobic, intense, sometimes jazzy, sometimes strictly classical, there is more music in that three minute cue than most scores manage across their entire running time.

From The Labour And The Hard Work - Souhei Kano tells the whole story of Fractale in a completely uncompromising, mini opera - in just under seven minutes he conveys musically what the show can't in five hours - and 5:09 must be one of the most visceral, unsettling, terrifying moments in the history of media scoring.

A Journey To The Future - wow. 0:34 is actually the first piece of score music heard in episode 1 - it is doing so many things at once. We are being introduced to the main characters, we are seeing one of them fall in love, we are learning the premise of the show, we are being fed strands of plot, and at the same time, a wonderfully eloquent sky dance and an exciting chase. Phyrne's theme is heard in full, in a triumphant trumpet solo. The end of the cue, from 5:10, is from the final episode of the show and although it doesn't represent the actual end of the episode (a low-key epilogue takes place after the "climactic" scene which is accompanied by "Down By The Salley Gardens" it certainly is the end of the score - such a marvellously satisfying restatement of the main theme and a shamelessly grand major key finale.

There has never been a score like it. I wonder if there will be again.

(For that last sentence to read the way I want it to, read it in your mind, accompanied by "A Journey To The Future", timed to that "again" is timed with the final chord.) ;)

Delix

03-16-2017, 11:40 AM

That "mini-opera" reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RM_MWAX5TQ

Sirusjr

03-16-2017, 07:10 PM

Vinphonic

03-17-2017, 12:26 PM

OH MY GOD... Studio Bones... Naoki Sato... new Eureka Seven Film trilogy... three possible Rainbow scores...

YES YES YES!!!!!

nextday

03-17-2017, 08:51 PM

Arrangers: Tomomichi Takeoka, Takahiro Tsuji, Daisuke Ehara, Souhei Kano, Sachiko Miyano, Naoyuki Chikatani, Kayoko Naoe

Download: https://mega.nz/#!1FdEnYaJ!d4oY7EJksDu1VmQDJTYPeh7wvSW2LEEUCfHTTFRj6hY

This isn't my rip, but I thought it was worth sharing here. It's better than last year's Tales concert in my opinion.

Vinphonic

03-17-2017, 09:54 PM

Track 13... was this an outtake from the Miku Symphony??? As usual Shiina is nuts. Still nice to hear that much vigor and panache and the usual larger than life pieces from Shiina.

Soundwise it's definetely not as good as the first album, the mic is far too upfront... but nothing that 10 minutes in Cubase/ProTools can't fix ;)

Anyway, this is the best thing to come out of a Sakuraba score since Kid Icarus.

Souhei Kano, Daisuke Ehara et al.
Symphonic Suite TALES OF BERSERIA
Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra / conducted by Hirofumi Kurita

PW:BeastBrass (https://anon.click/cosog13)

streichorchester

03-17-2017, 10:22 PM

Souhei Kano�s poetic masterpiece
Fractale
Tokyo Studio Orchestra and Chorus / Remastered by Vinphonic
Holy Shostakovich, Batman!

The Zipper

03-18-2017, 12:36 AM

Vinphonic brought up Iwasaki and Hisaishi before to compare to Kano, coincidentally I recently listened to all of Hisaishi's Works IV soundtrack and one piece stuck out to me in particular- an extended version of "The Refuge" from The Wind Rises. It reminded me of a piece from Iwasaki's "Green Earth Project" from Agito in how it was orchestrated and how the ostinati were utilized. Both pieces were obviously made to convey suspense, and I find it interesting how despite their similarities, Iwasaki and Hisaishi's overall styles still stand out in each piece.

http://picosong.com/pP5e/
http://picosong.com/pP5N/

Maybe I haven't listened to enough of Kano's work to really get a sense for it, but I can't say that his orchestral "voice" stands out to me as much as either Hisaishi or Iwasaki yet.

MastaMist

03-18-2017, 01:16 AM

Am I the only one who doesn't like the vocals in "Into That Bleak World"? I don't know how to describe it other than something about how the two voices clash with each other make me skip that track more than half the time I listen to the album.

I love it personally, it reminds me of something out of Panzer Dragoon or Song to Fly. Revisiting Fractale is a wonder. Kano's orchestration is a cut above, so, so good.

topSawyer

03-19-2017, 04:31 PM

PILI HEROES MUSIC COLLECTION LII63
霹靂天命之仙魔鏖鋒原聲帶【貳】
霹靂英雄音樂精選六十三

天命苦劫修羅海三光盡現仙門在仙魔鏖鋒戰雲開邪心魔佛見如來

雙CD超值收錄20+4首仙魔鏖鋒精選配樂
※回饋戲迷額外再加收1首：隨風(演奏版)
01天行日月(天跡武曲)03：46曲/編曲：張衞帆　TW-M03-17-36009
02神毓逍遙(天跡角色曲)02：58曲/編曲：浩旭 TW-M03-17-14010
03雪爵(皇暘曜雪角色曲)03：30曲/編曲：黃名偉 TW-M03-17-05011
04御命丹心(君奉天角色曲)03：26曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38012
05法儒無私(君奉天氣勢曲)03：29曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38013
06永夜劇場(永夜劇場情境曲)03：26曲/編曲：張衞帆 TW-M03-17-36014
07地獄魔幻師(地冥角色曲)03：09曲/編曲：張衞帆 TW-M03-17-36015
08孤月泠刀(恨吾峰角色曲)03：08曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38016
09情敘蕭索(恨吾峰情境曲)03：40曲/編曲：張衞帆/張衞帆、唐廸歆 TW-M03-17-36017
10隱鋒深鳴(邃無端角色曲)03：25曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38018
11鋒流千湍(邃無端武戲)03：28曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38019
12蝴蝶天斬(新蝴蝶君武曲)03：11曲/編曲：風采輪 TW-M03-17-26020
13德風古道(德風古道場景曲)03：33曲/編曲：風采輪 TW-M03-17-26021
14席斷虹(席二娘角色曲)03：56曲/編曲：黃名偉 TW-M03-17-05022
15萬里卓然乘雲濤(天跡氣勢曲)03：14曲/編曲：風采輪 TW-M03-17-26023
16闇影降塵(闇影角色曲)03：30曲/編曲：張衞帆 TW-M03-17-36024
17蕭瑟愁雨(冷飄渺角色曲)04：07曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38025
18非常君(人覺角色曲)04：18曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38026
19感風吟月(杜傷懷角色曲)04：29曲/編曲：孫敬凡 TW-M03-17-28027
20天泣悲鳴(孤星淚悲壯曲)04：19曲/編曲：張衞帆/張衞帆、唐廸歆 TW-M03-17-36028

CD2

01我魔慈悲(仙魔鏖鋒第二片頭曲)04:40曲/編曲：風采輪詞：周郎演唱：宋昱錦 TW-M03-17-26029
02花開何時(仙魔鏖鋒第二片尾曲)04:39曲/編曲：張衞帆/小冷詞：飽米花演唱：蔡佳瑩 TW-M03-17-36030
03釵頭鳳(插曲：了因)05:11曲/編曲：蓮歌子詞：陸游演唱：寶鬘覺華 TW-M03-17-27031
04謎題(插曲：紅塵雪與練習生)05:20曲/編曲：風采輪詞：太平演唱：賴富正&蔡佳瑩 TW-M03-17-26032
05隨風(劍隨風插曲演奏版)04:19曲/編曲：黃建秦 TW-M03-17-38033
[hide]
https://mega.nz/#!hwEWmTRA!WMpDYIKs_PU9ziRXwybg9U6GueDRaPvfBGD7p19tFr4

pw= VITALIDAD=Safe