Hello there.

It's been many, many years now that I've been playing Final Fantasy games, and I felt the time was right to put down a few thoughts about them. I thought I'd start with the first FF that I played - Final Fantasy 7.

Having recently completed FF XII, I got to thinking again about what was my favourite. And I think, like many people it is probably FF7. It's often considered the greatest RPG of the series and I think overall, that it is probably a fair statement, (although I do find great merit in 7,8 and 9.) But why is this, I asked myself? I think it's pretty much a combination of an engaging story, a decent enough cast of characters and a fairly consistent level of interest throughout the game.

Because I think FF7 has easily the best paced, most consistently engaging story of the FF series. The trouble with games the size of modern RPGs, is that they are so huge, you are inevitably going to run into sections and characters that you just don't really care for. So it surely to FF7's credit, that for the vast majority of the game, interest is sustained very well. I think it achieves this through intelligent use of its 'A' characters, attention to making sure people like said characters, and some 'tough love' when it comes to the development/useage in the game regarding them.

If you look at the structure and character use/character development, FF7 differs somewhat from the later games in the series (except perhaps FF VIII). Generally speaking the FF series games are split into two distinct sections. The first half of the game sees your main 'A' characters come together and overcome various hardships, identify their main enemies, generally get beaten and captured etc because they aren't too tough at this stage.

This serves to foster a great deal of 'underdog sympathy' and comfort with these early characters. Bearing in mind that you can spend large amounts of time training, it's very likely that you've spent a fairly substantial amount of time with these characters before getting the later ones. Because these early characters have been through many thrilling times with you (as the games usually include some sort of explosive opening to get you going), it is harder to take to the later characters, because you have become so accustomed to the dynamic of the early heroes.

Also of significance is the problem of freedom to choose your characters. In the early going, the game forces you to use sets of characters, leading to sections that can be specifically written for them. This all helps to build up credit with you for these characters. Later on however, Square realise that people will want to focus on certain characters to the detriment of others. They cannot know for sure however, which characters will appeal to each and every player.

So they let you leave various party members out, potentially for good. This causes problems though, when you consider that after the first third say, of each game, the amount of development in many of the characters plummets. Because the game cannot guarantee you are actually using a certain character, it becomes harder to include sections with said character in a prominent role. Not only is there the possbility that you seriously don't care about them and your interest will wane, there is the fact that you may not have levelled them up at all. As such, the main plot kicks in to take up the slack, and the remainder of the game is a series of dungeons in which your choice of characters matters little to the development of the story.

This is how it often goes. FF7 does do this to an extent, but it does throw the occasional curve ball. For example, party splits are reasonably common in RPGs, but they usually leave you with some kind of choice, or at least a set of three/four people (to raise the odds of having someone you have levelled up). FF7 has two instances that defy this trend. The first is the fight between Barret and Dyne. One on one battles are rare enough as it is, but if you haven't levelled Barret up (i.e you haven't been using him), then you are in some trouble as Dyne is no pushover. This is something rarely seen in the later games, as Square realised that it was punishing people for simply not liking a certain character.

The second is the death of Aeris (apologies if that is spelt incorrectly - it is some time since I played). Many have wondered why such a heartbreaking scene has never really been repeated. It was certainly unexpected and very moving. But if you had been concentrating on Aeries, it gave you all kinds of problems gamewise. This again is something Square have been eager to avoid since (because in this case it is effectively punishing you for liking a specific character).

What is good for gaming is not always good for story. FF7 may have some unfair moments like this, but the story is that much more effective for it. It manages to keep a reasonable amount of sections in which a decent spread of the characters take centre stage. This is certainly not always the case in FF, as later games tend to give some characters one particular section and then nothing ever again. The germs of this can be seen in Yuffie and Vincent, although they are 'secret' characters, so it can be forgiven here. But consider FF VIII for example, where Quistis gets her big section to herself right at the start in a very slow paced opening. It means people tend to bulldoze past her part of the game, and she never gets anything much to do after that.

When it comes down to it though, FF7 broadly does conform to the 'A' characters and 'B' characters template. It simply has more 'A' characters than the other games, and does more with them. Sucessful identification of which characters are 'A' characters is paramount to enjoying the FF games, as it allows you to focus your passion and interest onto characters likely to receive interesting sections. Whether or not you enjoy a given FF game really depends on how much you like the game's 'A' characters. There's nothing wrong with liking say, Red XIII for example, but if you're hoping for lots of stuff about him and sections where he gets to be all heroic in cutscenes, then you are just asking to be disapointed. Let's look at the spread in FF VII:

FF7 'A' characters.
Cloud.
Aeris.
Tifa.
Barret.
Sephiroth.
Shinra corporation (not technically a character, but their name alone carries much emotional baggage after a while).

FF7 'B' characters.
Red XIII.
Cait Sith.
Yuffie.
Vincent.
Cid.

The main story will always heavily revolve around the 'A' characters. They will get most of the characater development and the lion's share of the truly heavyweight scenes. The others will usually get one section, before being resigned to virtual second class citizens. Part of the reason why FF 8 divides opinion so much is because only Squall, Rinoa and Seifer are truly 'A' characters. So if you don't like one or more of them, chances are you didn't like FF8, because the vast majority of the game centres on them.

With me, my enjoyment of the game was tempered with certain problems. As great as the story was most of the time, I did feel the aforementioned lag in certain areas (Costa del Sol or whatever it's called, Icicle Inn, Rocket Town...) It also becomes apparent that the main places in the first twenty of so hours, will be the best in the game. Take FF 9, where the first continent was very well put together and crammed with interesting places to explore. You move to the other three continents... and they barely have any places to visit in comparison, and none as well detailed and realistic as the start (because by then, it's all about the metaplot).

Also (and I realise some people will be quite disgusted at this), I didn't really connect with Sephroth all that much. It wasn't so much that I didn't like him or the sections with him in, because I did. I loved the destruction of Nibelheim cutscene as much as anyone. But the thing is, I always considered Shinra to be the greater bad guys in the game, simply because of their consistent villany and sheer hateableness. The scene where they massacre the people of Corel and drive Dyne insane with rage thereafter, really fired me up to teach them a lesson.

So far, so good yes? The thing is, then trying to make me also despise Sephiroth and want his death was too much. They had made him too sympathetic a character by the time he kills Aeries. Now, I liked Aeries and considered her a sweet character. It wasn't that I didn't care, far from it. But I was already dead set on vengance against Shinra and had no emotional energy left if you will to expend on Sephiroth. Steven Spielburg put it quite well when he explained leaving the mine cart out of 'Raiders of the lost Ark' until the next film. He said that you had to careful how much you put in one film. Raiders was already so full of gags, stunts, fights, villains etc that there simply wasn't emotional room for another big scene like that.

And so it was here. When cloud paces to the window in the Highwind and declares 'Shinra's finished', I sat back comforted in the knowledge that it was a job well done. I simply didn't care about going to get Sephiroth - it hadn't even crossed my mind. The final battle against the corporation was so great and fun filled, with the last meeting with the Turks, finally getting to grips with Hojo etc, that I was all out after it. I did eventually muster the effort to be bothered, and was roundly disapointed. I just didn't have the emotional energy to be interested in the fight (like with the fight against Ultimecia and Necron in the later games say, because they have been in the game so little before you face them).

As a final set of thoughts on FF7, I just thought I'd say what I thought of the characters in brief.

Cloud:
A decent 'leading man'. His story was very interesting and sad in all the right ways. It's interesting that your main hero is someone is essentially a failure. I think the attempts to show him as cocky and mercenary early on fall a bit flat however. He isn't one of my favourite FF characters, but I have time for him.

Tifa.
A bit of a wasted character in my opinion. She is important to the story, but is stuck being the 'other woman' for much of the time. The apparent romance between her and Cloud near the end is pretty much out of the blue too. Still, a pretty likeable character in her own way. She is one of the more believeable female FF characters.

Aeris.
Not exactly an earthshakingly interesting character in and of herself. Her death probably wins her fans she might not otherwise have had. She is however, very easy to like and I am not in any way opposed to the romance that builds between her and Cloud (as I am in some of the later games). The scenes of her as a young girl are very cute and endearing also.

Red XIII.
One of those characters who really only gets one big section (Cosmo Canyon caves), before the designers largely forget about him. He's acceptable-ish, but not really very engaging. He simply doesn't do enough to be one of the greats.

Barret.
Probably my favourite FF7 character. He is one of the great unsung heroes in my opinion, and the sequence with Dyne's suicide is my favourite of any FF game. His transformation from loudmouthed 'Mr T' lookalike to humbled, repentant veteran is excellent. I particularly enjoyed his sad realisation that his Avalanche friends died because of him, because he wasn't strong enough or clever enough to help them. Moving stuff.

Cid.
Quite a fun character, but not really capitalised on. Again, he pretty much gets one section and that's it. He'll do, but as I say, he arrives too late on the scene. Your other party members have been through far too many significant emotional events before they meet him, for him to truly feel one of the team in quite the same way.

Cait Sith.
An irritating character for the most part, who kills off the intensity of the game if you actually include him in your party. Has a weak reason to be in the party in the first place and never really gets any decent scenes. A bizarre 'filler' character.

Yuffie.
About the best thing I can say about Yuffie is that she's optional! That said, the events in Wutai are reasonably diverting. She's the stereotypical bubbly young girl of the game - a template that miserably is included all the time now. Not one of my favourites, you may have guessed!

Vincent.
I think his look aid him far more in the popularity stakes that anything about his character really. They hint at a past worth knowing about, but Vincent really doesn't do much of anything in this game. I have always found him difficult to engage with, because of this.

And there we are. A great game, with a cast of generally acceptable characters. It's Shinra that really make the game for me, but it's not hard to see why most people love this game. The template of 'beat the evil empire/corporation/religion' followed by the battle against one man striving for divine/demonic power is repeated again and again in jap RPGs, but this game was the first time we could experience it quite like this.


The Chocobo has spoken!

While this is certainly well-presented - and I do respect that - it's the biggest load of bullshit I've seen on this forum in quite a while. I'm too lazy right now to explain why, but I really wanted to be the first to say it.

This isn't really the best place to express your enjoyment for FFVII as it is hated on this forum by most members, and it's Aerith not Aeris.

I hate to say it, but TM is right... FFVII is my favorite, but no one here likes it. and it's only Aerith in KH TM, in FFVII its Aeris, but she's lame regardless...

Stop calling me TM, it's Killa_7 or Killa if you want. Also her name is Aerith but poor translation from the japenese game resulted in her being called Aeris in Europe/American version of FFVII, and yes she is lame.

But thats who you are... Or would you prefer M~C~P? or maybe Sark?

Um no I am not The Master/Sark/MCP.

Um Yes I am not The Master/Sark/MCP.

Fix'd :smrt:

I am pretty sure that if I was TM then I would have been banned by now.

sarah hasn't been on here since you signed up... just wait awhile

Geo-Trace me if you want.

Well... whilst I agree that each person must have their own opinions, I feel I may be entitled to hear exactly why you feel so strongly against my views Prak. I simply gave my opnion on matters, how the game spoke to me personally.

I have found that the first part of the FF games are well structured and designed to let you get you know and enjoy the characters. Then halfway through the enemy always changes and a few new characters are thrown haphazardly into the party. These new characters and enemeis are given nowhere near the same loving treatment as those at the start and the game suffers.

Look at FF VIII. Great build up and pretty flawless execution on the first two discs, before Edea suddenly becomes your friend, Seifer fades into the background and you are told (not shown) about a new enemy that you only meet at the very end. Plus the game spirals into invisible cities, outer space, warping dream sequences... a sad end to a great game.

And what about FF 9? A great first two discs charting the battle against Queen Brahna, and loads of wonderful set pieces (like the excellent opening). Then Brahna dies leaving you with some Sephiroth rip off, who is then upstaged by a guy in a spaceship in all things! You hurtle through sections like upside down castles and magic resistant areas with none of them leaving any impression, before visiting a different world, finding out your character is from outer space or something... No, no, no...

If the Final Fantasy could simply sustain the format of say the first two discs of FF 8, I think they'd really be onto something.

And out of interest (oh, hello to everybody by the way!), why does everyone hate FF VII here? I'm genuinely interested because I had always agreed with the (I thought) prevailing notion that people considered it the best installment.

Well... whilst I agree that each person must have their own opinions, I feel I may be entitled to hear exactly why you feel so strongly against my views Prak.

Be careful what you wish for...


I simply gave my opnion on matters, how the game spoke to me personally.

Ah, but Prak doesn't believe in opinions. He only believes in the 'immutable truth'.


And out of interest (oh, hello to everybody by the way!), why does everyone hate FF VII here? I'm genuinely interested because I had always agreed with the (I thought) prevailing notion that people considered it the best installment.

...why don't I just show some links.

This is good for a laugh (Thread 36828)
You should also read this, (Thread 31649)
and this. (Thread 28128)

There are more examples around, but I can't be bothered finding them.
And while you're online, post in here (Thread 33619). It's a struggling rumble run by a humble shriner that could always use more votes.

TheBlackestChocobo, would you like to elaborate on how Kuja is a rip off of Sephiroth? Apart from the colour of their hair, I don't see too many similarities.

tldr....but FAO TM - in my version of FFVII - it says Aeris therefore its Aeris, whether or not the whole translation thing be true, i played the game with all of the other characters calling her Aeris, and so that is what she will be called!

EDIT - Also, do you have a girlfriend? im not interested (or gay) i was just wondering why everywhere i go on the shrine...your there?!? Either get a job, get a life, or get bent....better still get all 3 and piss off for good!

Like I said this is not the best place to talk about your love for FFVII.
@ Mr Jack: Go ahead call her Aeris if you want, it's what I called her when I was a young lad, until I found out she was actually called Aerith.

Just shut up with this Aeris/Aerith crap already. She was and still is a character that underwent no character development, and played a minimal role in the mediocre story of an extremely overrated game.

Lol square most of known this, probably why they killed her off.

So your an adult with absolutly no life.

I pity you. Get a job bum and stop leeching of your parents.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I ain't no Adult, and besides were I live is boring any way I have been bored for the last few days, will try and cut down on my posting in a few days, I know it must be annoying to see the same avatar pop up every where and for that I apologise, just really bored.......

zetsumei - know when your not wanted - eh?? I dont give a shit what everyone else calls her, and tbh i dont really give two turds about how it came about. Your opinions are worthless and shite and mean fuck all to me

While this is certainly well-presented - and I do respect that - it's the biggest load of bullshit I've seen on this forum in quite a while. I'm too lazy right now to explain why, but I really wanted to be the first to say it.

To be fair to him, I didn't think it was bullshit. I actually agreed with a bit of it. I've seen far worse posts on here regarding FFVII, some of which make no attempt whatsoever to see the game's weak points and just ramble on about how great it is.

know when you're not wanted

The same goes for you and your grammatically challenged pair of brain cells.

While this is certainly well-presented - and I do respect that - it's the biggest load of bullshit I've seen on this forum in quite a while. I'm too lazy right now to explain why, but I really wanted to be the first to say it.

<<
Do you actually want the topic creator to agree with you?
Or are you actually just 'looking for a fight'...?
....>> Because the topic creator didn't seem to be looking for a fight, so I don't see why you'd need to start one....

If you aren't looking for a fight, then I think that calling someone's words some sort of manure isn't exactly how you get someone to agree with you either....

Prak is not after respect, he's after the 'immutable truth'.

Ah...I guess I wasn't really asking what he was looking for...
I think I was more asking why he decided to post.
If he was looking for truth, I don't think it's necessary to insult anyone at all...

If you're implying that him saying "it's the biggest load of bullshit I've seen" is him looking for the immutable truth, then....Hmf. Alright then.
I should let him reply before I say too much....

Keep this a normal discusion and if you want to have a crack at eachother, freaking PM.

Ah...! Alright, alright.
<<
So--! Back to the topic....

I mainly agreed with most of what the topic creator said--he gave a very well-thought out analysis of the game...
There's one thing I wanted to say though--


Cait Sith.
An irritating character for the most part, who kills off the intensity of the game if you actually include him in your party. Has a weak reason to be in the party in the first place and never really gets any decent scenes. A bizarre 'filler' character.
I think his scene at the Temple of the Ancients wasn't so bad...
<< But I think you're right--he does kind of break the 'pacing' of the game. I've always had him in my party, though, (since my little brother liked him, so I kept him with me most of the time...) and he isn't so bad after a while.
I definitely do see why people hate him, though. XP

It's a shame he turned out to be Scottish though.......pity.

Hello hello.

I just thought I'd reply to the question about Sephiroth/Kuja. Basically, both are people who let pride over their (admittedly great) skill and power delude them into thinking they are a better quality of person than others. Therefore, they feel they have the moral right to decide if the world lives or dies.

Sephiroth feels wronged over the treatment he and his mother have received, and deems the world an evil place, unfit for survival. Kuja feels wronged in that people won't submit to his (in his mind) obvious right to rule over them, not to mention he also feels betrayed (as both Garland and Brahne try to kill him).

Characters like this who pass a kind of moral judgement on the evil of the world are commonplace in RPGs. Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Kuja, Necron... and it's not just Final Fantasy either. The fact that you are always pitted against these people is the developers saying that the world is indeed a grim place, but you have to find the will to go on.

Lastly, I don't think Aeris was all that bad. She has a few decent scenes, but most crucially of all, I didn't find her annoying. The main princess character is often done poorly in RPGs, but I think Aeris and Rinoa were pretty good. Garnet, Yuna and Ashe (despite being one of the only bearable characters in XII), were all pretty bland.

And no, I'm not looking for a fight. I see no problems with proper argument and debate, but flame wars and knee jerk 'You're just wrong!' helps no-one.

I'd be interested to learn what people feel are FF VII's major failings these days. I still consider it the most complete of all the FF games (although I haven't played FFs I-V).

Hello hello.

I just thought I'd reply to the question about Sephiroth/Kuja. Basically, both are people who let pride over their (admittedly great) skill and power delude them into thinking they are a better quality of person than others. Therefore, they feel they have the moral right to decide if the world lives or dies.

Sephiroth feels wronged over the treatment he and his mother have received, and deems the world an evil place, unfit for survival. Kuja feels wronged in that people won't submit to his (in his mind) obvious right to rule over them, not to mention he also feels betrayed (as both Garland and Brahne try to kill him).

Characters like this who pass a kind of moral judgement on the evil of the world are commonplace in RPGs. Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Kuja, Necron... and it's not just Final Fantasy either. The fact that you are always pitted against these people is the developers saying that the world is indeed a grim place, but you have to find the will to go on.

Lastly, I don't think Aeris was all that bad. She has a few decent scenes, but most crucially of all, I didn't find her annoying. The main princess character is often done poorly in RPGs, but I think Aeris and Rinoa were pretty good. Garnet, Yuna and Ashe (despite being one of the only bearable characters in XII), were all pretty bland.

And no, I'm not looking for a fight. I see no problems with proper argument and debate, but flame wars and knee jerk 'You're just wrong!' helps no-one.

I'd be interested to learn what people feel are FF VII's major failings these days. I still consider it the most complete of all the FF games (although I haven't played FFs I-V).

Though I won't (at this stage) argue with you over Ashe's blandness (I am about 40 hours into FFXII and well, Ashe is pretty dull), I challenge you to back up your claim that Aeris and Rinoa were better/more interesting characters than Garnet. Heck, even Yuna beats Aeris hands down, in my book.

By the way, I agree with you about your objection to flaming, so you won't get any of that from me. However, if you keep making claims that I disagree with and don't back them up sufficiently, I will be more heavy-handed in my defence of my standpoint.

Okay, I feel like giving this a proper amount of attention now, so I'll give it a real response. You wanted to know about its failings? I think I can cover them pretty well.

Let's start with gameplay issues:

There are several control issues that are simply inexcusable. For example, why must players hold down a button all the time to run? Most gamers want to get from point A to point B quickly. They'll want to spend pretty much the entire game running. Not making that the default is idiotic. Then there's the fact that the controls occasionally take a turn for the ludicrous on disc one, where you'll have to press up to go left and crap like that. In cases like that, pushing the intuitive directional button(s) might take you in completely the wrong direction. Admittedly, these are merely quibbles, but a lot of quibbles add up fast.

The materia system is a disgrace to the series and to the entire gaming industry for one major reason, as well as a slew of minor ones I won't focus on due the big one's overwhelming importance. It devalues the characters. You have a wide assortment of them, but you can easily pick a favorite set and not deviate from them for most of the game. Now this in itself isn't such a huge problem, although it is in defiance of basic game design logic. The problem is that when you do occasionally have to use another character, there's no penalty for having never used them before. You can simply switch materia from one character to the other and instantly give them the same abilities. They have no individual merit, which hinders the playability of the game for anyone who's not either an idiot who cannot handle multiple styles or a newbie to gaming in general who simply doesn't know better.

And right there, we hit on a central theme in FFVII's popularity. The PSX struck entirely new demographics who were not previously familiar with gaming's accepted conventions. It was simple. Overly so. It was easy. Overly so. It was designed for a flashy mainstream appeal, which drew in people who probably wouldn't have liked previous games in the series, and completely misrepresented the gaming industry at large. Newcomers to gaming had certain expectations of what the Japanese mistakenly call role-playing games, which would not be met by other games that actually acknowledged the accepted industry paradigms.

Now let's take a look at the game's story. People go on and on about how great its story is, but they don't know what they're talking about. It's a poor story with a very clever and very sinister gimmick to grab the attention of younger gamers.

The characters are nothing but avatars of personality archetypes. They have very little actual personality development beyond the most basic demeanors. In the end, they all make basically the same choices, fight for the same goals, and regard one other the same way. The reason for this is to simplify the story by removing conflicting actions between characters of different types while disguising their lack of development with very powerful archetypal personality types that would appeal to the individual sensibilities of egotistical newbie gamers who find charm only in characters who are like themselves.

Combine that with the facts that the game does not have a single plot twist and that the writing is sloppy and incomplete, and you have a pretty nasty failure of a package that managed to succeed purely on the merit of being flashy and new to the majority of its fanbase and having the advantage of defining their expectations.

I can continue with this if you like.

Do go on.

With regards to your gameplay issues, I state simply that for me, it doesn't matter. You may howl with outrage, but for me the story was what hooked me, and unless the controls and system are so awful that I cannot abide them, I notice them very little. I had no particular problem with the materia system. The stones themselves are acquiring the powers, not the characters, so it shouldn't matter that each can use them as sucessfully as the others. The characters do indeed not have many gameplay differences (none that are particularly easy to spot anyway, because I guess their stats are different). They have different limit breaks and those are of a suffucient variety to make choosing characters based on gameplay power a reality.

I concede that they are broadly the same, but like I said, if I wanted great gameplay then I wouldn't really be playing RPGs for it. RPGs are games I play for the immersive experience and story. The systems may not be great, but unlike you it seems (and you are of course entitled to that opinion), the systems have never bothered me (in the Final Fantasy series at least). As long as it's not inpenetrable, I can put up with most systems. As for the 'always have to press to run'...

Saying that games should be reviled for using flashy graphics and new technology to win bigger crowds is one of the strangest arguments I have ever heard. They were simply moving with the times, and delivered a better and more enjoyable experience than had previously been possible. I was an RPG fan before I played FF 7, and it enhanced my love of the genre.

As for the story, I cannot disagree more. For the time when it was released certainly, it had a much more involved and well constructed story than anything going. And I think even today, it holds up well because it delivers entertainment and recognises the trend in society's youth towards despair. I don't think you can possibly support an argument that there are no characters with real personality at all. If so, your standards are ludicrously high. For me, the game offers the chance to experience highs and lows of emotion, to see that the world is often a dark and grim place, and that whilst some people can get overwhelmed by it all, we just have to go on. If you don't see value in that in these times we live in, then I am both happy for you for your denial of the situation society is in, and sad that you have missed out on a chance to enjoy a collective wish for something better. It may be retreating from the world's problem to enjoy such escapism, but games are escapism.

Like I have stated elsewhere, it would indeed be nice if we could have stories that included conflict and interactions between any number of characters based on the choices you made and people you used. But that is unreasonable because the games could never cope with such a number of variables and it would take forever to compile all the dialogue and such. The game creates a sucessful illusion of freedom and by allowing you to choose who you will use, gives the player the feeling he has some control over what is necessarily a linear story. The story isn't perfect, but I think it hits far, far more often than it misses. Perhaps these days with the new power of the machines, we can start expecting something a little more involved (although FF XII seems to imply that the opposite is in fact happening).

I also don't think the writing can be said to be sloppy and incomplete for the majority. The loose ends are all tied up, the reasons why you should care about certain characters are established and built upon. Certain things appeal more than others, but that is just personal preference to my mind. I felt that the areas of the story that interested me were handled acceptably. Some characters and plot areas could have done with more work, but I really do think you have to look at the big picture and say they got far more right than they got wrong.

If this comes across as being overly defensive, then I reiterate that people are free to believe what they like. If you truly don't like FF 7, then no-one is going to force you to like it. But you have to go with what you really think. If you liked it, then you say so. If you didn't like it, then you say so. But if you swim against that, say parts of a game are poor just for the sake of it, or refuse to acknowledge the worth of something you actually know that in your heart of hearts, you think does have merit, then the only person you are kidding is yourself. And again, I'm not saying that this applies to Prak or any of the people who have said FF 7 is not the classic people say it is. I merely say that from my point of view, I find it hard to see how people could play this game and not find any merit in it whatsoever - I just can't see it, and if that doesn't match up with what some think, then it must simply be down to different tastes. I know for an absolute fact that I consider it one of the greatest RPGs even though it has its faults. If I said otherwise, then it would simply be a lie.

And now...
I'll just respond to... I'll call you Ceidwad if that's alright. I didn't get much of anything from the Garnet character. She just seemed permanently stuck in neutral, offering no memerable lines or scenes. As I couldn't engage with her and disliked (but didn't exactly hate) Zidane, their whole story passed me by. It was a similar story in FF X with Tidus and Yuna, only both characters seemed to push even farther to the extremes. Tidus was and is, my least favourite FF hero, and Yuna (in X anyway), just lacks any kind of excitement. She's quiet and soft spoken, committed to duty etc etc. But more than that, and I apologise if this offends anyone, she just seems a bit... well dim.

But it isn't just her. I couldn't be doing with that whole 'Arrogant city sports hero finds humility amongst the simple country folk' storyline, especially as it was done so badly. It isn't even that I opposed Tidus for his sucess or whatever, more that he was so obviously mentally fragile. He just seemed like a bit of a drip when it came down to it. And Yuna as I said, was just so appallingly... nice. She had no energy about her, just this slightly posh girl who's lived in the country and never had a life of her own.

That would have been fine, if she'd actually seemed to have anything about her, but like I said she came across as pretty vacant really. Even in the sequel, when she's supposedly lightened up, she's still unbearably dizzy. Quiet apart from Tidus, it's LeBlanc who shows her how much of a good time she could be having with that concert thing at the start. Youth is wasted on young people they say...

Please expect half of your comments to be dismissed with, "Congratulations, you missed the point" or "biggest load of crap ever".

Though i niether agree, nor disagree with a majority of your comments, im kind of looking forward to Prak's reply.

EDIT - Maybe you should add all of that to the Forum Charter for the attention of the next fanboy? It might stop those headaces?!?

He'll either agree or he won't, it's no skin off my nose. No-one is saying FF 7 doesn't have its flaws, but my point was simply that to me, they didn't detract from a great experience.

RPGs live and die on whether they marry together an absorbing story with a control system people can live with. They need to have a system in place to regulate character advancement etc, weighed against the need to allow gamers to pick and choose who they want to use without fear of punishment (i.e one character is just better than all the others).

Seeing as how the vast majority of RPG fans play for the quality of the story, that it what has traditionally received the most attention. But seeing as how the stories have been sliding of late (in my opinion anyway), it seems they are now trying to go down the control method alley. If that continues, I'll stop playing FF games soon, as XII was a utter disgrace of a FF game.

At the end of the day, it's hard to argue with success. Regardless of Prak may say about FF VII and what I may say about FF X, both were hugely sucessful and highly regarded. I see the value in VII, I don't see the value in X - it really is as simple as that, because my personal response to the games is obviously the most important thing I have to go on.

With regards to your gameplay issues, I state simply that for me, it doesn't matter. You may howl with outrage, but for me the story was what hooked me, and unless the controls and system are so awful that I cannot abide them, I notice them very little.

That doesn't make it any less important. Even if it was to your liking, it's still full of problems that should not have made it into the final version.


I had no particular problem with the materia system. The stones themselves are acquiring the powers, not the characters, so it shouldn't matter that each can use them as sucessfully as the others.

But right there is exactly the problem. It negates difficulty and character planning entirely, dumbing the game down for maximum accessibility by the lowest denominator. How the story explains it doesn't really matter.


The characters do indeed not have many gameplay differences (none that are particularly easy to spot anyway, because I guess their stats are different). They have different limit breaks and those are of a suffucient variety to make choosing characters based on gameplay power a reality.

Bullshit. I can't be tactful on this one. That's simply bullshit. Most of the characters simply have flashy damage-dealing effects. The only notable exception is Aeris. Cosmetic differences do not make for varied gameplay styles, so your point is, as I said before, absolute bullshit.


I concede that they are broadly the same, but like I said, if I wanted great gameplay then I wouldn't really be playing RPGs for it. RPGs are games I play for the immersive experience and story.

What you're describing are adventure games, which is what the FF series actually is. Real role-playing games are all about gameplay. Look at Baldur's Gate or Knights of the Old Republic for examples.


The systems may not be great, but unlike you it seems (and you are of course entitled to that opinion), the systems have never bothered me (in the Final Fantasy series at least). As long as it's not inpenetrable, I can put up with most systems. As for the 'always have to press to run'...

Good for you, sport. There are, however, those of us who are true gamers. In other words, those who play games to actually play the games, not see the story unfold. And in that regard, which is the primary reason for such things to exist as games in the first place, FFVII fails tremendously.


Saying that games should be reviled for using flashy graphics and new technology to win bigger crowds is one of the strangest arguments I have ever heard. They were simply moving with the times, and delivered a better and more enjoyable experience than had previously been possible. I was an RPG fan before I played FF 7, and it enhanced my love of the genre.

You're twisting my words. I did not say it should be reviled for that. I was merely explaining the source of its popularity. Also "better and more enjoyable" is half subjective and half wrong. Enjoyability is entirely subjective to the mind of the player. To say that it's better, on the other hand, is completely and unequivocably wrong.


As for the story, I cannot disagree more. For the time when it was released certainly, it had a much more involved and well constructed story than anything going.

No it didn't. Look at Blood Omen for a game from that same period that had a far superior story. I'm sure I can find others, but that alone is a death blow to your statement.


And I think even today, it holds up well because it delivers entertainment and recognises the trend in society's youth towards despair.

Recognizes the trend? More like panders to it. The makers sacrificed artistic integrity in order to appeal to a mainstream audience. How can you possibly argue that such a thing is good?


I don't think you can possibly support an argument that there are no characters with real personality at all. If so, your standards are ludicrously high.

I certainly can support it. I've done so in the past and am capable of doing so again upon request. However, I'm going to put the burden on you disprove my claim. Show me where there is actual personality development. Show me where the characters have any personality beyond trademark behaviors of their archetype. I'll reply accordingly.


For me, the game offers the chance to experience highs and lows of emotion, to see that the world is often a dark and grim place, and that whilst some people can get overwhelmed by it all, we just have to go on. If you don't see value in that in these times we live in, then I am both happy for you for your denial of the situation society is in, and sad that you have missed out on a chance to enjoy a collective wish for something better. It may be retreating from the world's problem to enjoy such escapism, but games are escapism.

Wait a moment... so you're saying that because the world is a dark and grim place, it's a good idea to play games where the world is dark and grim in order to get away from it? THAT MAKES SENSE! =/

But anyway, I honestly don't give a damn what you got from the game. I'm not arguing about your personal thoughts on it. I'm arguing about the reality behind them; the reality about the glaring flaws in the game that are all-too-often glossed over or completely dismissed/denied by its fans.


Like I have stated elsewhere, it would indeed be nice if we could have stories that included conflict and interactions between any number of characters based on the choices you made and people you used. But that is unreasonable because the games could never cope with such a number of variables and it would take forever to compile all the dialogue and such.

Western games do it. Bioware in particular has done some amazing things with the concepts you're presenting as being unreasonable.


The game creates a sucessful illusion of freedom and by allowing you to choose who you will use, gives the player the feeling he has some control over what is necessarily a linear story.

That isn't enough to fool people who were used to better games that actually did give the player some control.


The story isn't perfect, but I think it hits far, far more often than it misses.

You think... That isn't enough to debate with.


Perhaps these days with the new power of the machines, we can start expecting something a little more involved (although FF XII seems to imply that the opposite is in fact happening).

Amigo, you really should get your head out of whatever Japanese ass you have it in and find out what kinds of amazing things westerners are doing with games these days. Most of the best Japanese games now are decidedly inferior to the best stuff coming out of North America and Europe. Their entire market is stagnating.


I also don't think the writing can be said to be sloppy and incomplete for the majority. The loose ends are all tied up, the reasons why you should care about certain characters are established and built upon.

I honestly had to fight from laughing out loud at this. Loose ends are all tied up? What game did you play? I'm not even dignifying that with a response since even die-hard fans of the game acknowledge that it left a lot unfinished.


Certain things appeal more than others, but that is just personal preference to my mind. I felt that the areas of the story that interested me were handled acceptably. Some characters and plot areas could have done with more work, but I really do think you have to look at the big picture and say they got far more right than they got wrong.

Anyone can get more right than they get wrong. Even the worst games usually manage that. The objective, however, is to get NOTHING wrong. And when a game has as much wrong with it as FFVII, there's a problem.


If this comes across as being overly defensive, then I reiterate that people are free to believe what they like. If you truly don't like FF 7, then no-one is going to force you to like it. But you have to go with what you really think. If you liked it, then you say so. If you didn't like it, then you say so. But if you swim against that, say parts of a game are poor just for the sake of it, or refuse to acknowledge the worth of something you actually know that in your heart of hearts, you think does have merit, then the only person you are kidding is yourself.

On the other hand, to like something in spite of its flaws and then proclaim that they are not flaws at all just because you happen to like it in its current state does a disservice to all involved. I honestly don't care if you like the game or not. I'm just sick and tired of seeing people shouting from the hilltops about how great this decidedly mediocre game is. It's entirely false and deserves to be redressed.


I find it hard to see how people could play this game and not find any merit in it whatsoever

Even I, as much as I hate the game, found certain merits in it. You'd have to be a complete and utter fool to say it doesn't have any strong points. However, a few high moments doesn't make up for sloppy, rushed design and whoring to the lowest denominator of the mainstream.


Seeing as how the vast majority of RPG fans play for the quality of the story, that it what has traditionally received the most attention. But seeing as how the stories have been sliding of late (in my opinion anyway), it seems they are now trying to go down the control method alley. If that continues, I'll stop playing FF games soon, as XII was a utter disgrace of a FF game.

Man, I really get sick of seeing games like that get called RPGs. They're adventure games. Unfortunately, for every person I point this out to, someone else appears who has no clue. It's an endless cycle of headaches for me. It really sucks being the lone voice of reason.

But you won't get any argument from me about FFXII being awful, although I took major offense at its control systems as well as its story. We should all just stop playing Jap games entirely and spend our money on the vastly superior western products.


At the end of the day, it's hard to argue with success. Regardless of Prak may say about FF VII and what I may say about FF X, both were hugely sucessful and highly regarded. I see the value in VII, I don't see the value in X - it really is as simple as that, because my personal response to the games is obviously the most important thing I have to go on.

That's an entirely egocentric view. A truly wise man can look beyond his own likes/dislikes to see true merit or lack thereof. I dislike FFVII, but I can still see its merits. I like FFX, but I can still see that it really is a prime example of many of the things I find wrong with the modern gaming industry. The difference between fact and opinion, my friend, is that facts are immutable truths and opinions are distorted personal views of those truths. True wisdom comes from looking beyond your distorted views, then finding and recognizing the facts behind them.

And now...
I'll just respond to... I'll call you Ceidwad if that's alright. I didn't get much of anything from the Garnet character. She just seemed permanently stuck in neutral, offering no memerable lines or scenes.

Call me Rob, it's just a bit shorter than my username...... ;)

Anyway, to answer your points.

I think nearly everyone here would at least agree that Garnet was at least a memorable character. No memorable lines or scenes? Half the game focuses on her efforts to gain independence and attempt to help her mother who she believes she is losing. There are plenty of memorable lines and scenes along the way. I could do a list, but that would take a while, so I'll just say the one thing that really stood out for me. The FMV where she cuts her hair is widely regarded here as very much memorable, as it symbolizes her triumph over her emotional issues. The cutting of her hair, which was previously bound by a 'scrunchie' shows that she has overcome the shackles of her previous life where she had no thoughts of her own.


As I couldn't engage with her and disliked (but didn't exactly hate) Zidane, their whole story passed me by.

I am fairly certain that your dislike of the characters in FFIX is down to simple ignorance. As I found your analysis of Garnet to be, with all due respect, complete rubbish, I have come to the conclusion that you have probably only played it once and misunderstood it. This is in contrast with FFVII, which you have obviously played several times and therefore overrate it. Either way, your argument has not proven anything, so I don't feel the need to elaborate here.


It was a similar story in FF X with Tidus and Yuna, only both characters seemed to push even farther to the extremes. Tidus was and is, my least favourite FF hero, and Yuna (in X anyway), just lacks any kind of excitement. She's quiet and soft spoken, committed to duty etc etc. But more than that, and I apologise if this offends anyone, she just seems a bit... well dim.

But it isn't just her. I couldn't be doing with that whole 'Arrogant city sports hero finds humility amongst the simple country folk' storyline, especially as it was done so badly. It isn't even that I opposed Tidus for his sucess or whatever, more that he was so obviously mentally fragile. He just seemed like a bit of a drip when it came down to it. And Yuna as I said, was just so appallingly... nice. She had no energy about her, just this slightly posh girl who's lived in the country and never had a life of her own.

That would have been fine, if she'd actually seemed to have anything about her, but like I said she came across as pretty vacant really. Even in the sequel, when she's supposedly lightened up, she's still unbearably dizzy. Quiet apart from Tidus, it's LeBlanc who shows her how much of a good time she could be having with that concert thing at the start. Youth is wasted on young people they say...

If you'd read my post, you'd have deduced that I am not actually a great fan of Yuna and indeed Tidus, therefore I am not going to argue with your main points here. You'll have noticed this because I said 'even Yuna was a better character than Aeris'. By the way, I stand by that, and if you want to debate the merits of Aeris against Yuna as characters, or more importantly, the merits of FFX against FFVII as games, you have only to approach me.

Man, I really get sick of seeing games like that get called RPGs. They're adventure games. I'd go further to say that they're closer to being interactive storybooks rather than games at all.

Unfortunately, for every person I point this out to, someone else appears who has no clue. It's an endless cycle of headaches for me. It really sucks being the lone voice of reason.
It's an endless cycle of stupidity. I wish that I'd been awake to read TheBlackestChocobo's posts, so I could have made a point of showing him that using blatant opinion in an attempted argument results in no argument at all since an argument requires opinion backed by evidence from a credible source. Prak essentially said this, but it can easily be overlooked by those who don't have the capacity to read and comprehend more than a page of text.


We should all just stop playing Jap games entirely and spend our money on the vastly superior western products.
While there are a few Jap games that are better than western products, I agree with this solely on the fact that I have yet to play a video game that is completely superior to P&P games, let alone a Japanese video game that is better than a video game based on the rules of D&D. Heck, I still play Shadows of Amn to get my D&D fix when I don't have time to sit with a few friends for a P&P session.

Though I won't (at this stage) argue with you over Ashe's blandness (I am about 40 hours into FFXII and well, Ashe is pretty dull), I challenge you to back up your claim that Aeris and Rinoa were better/more interesting characters than Garnet. Heck, even Yuna beats Aeris hands down, in my book.

Are you serious??? Yuna is irritating! Every time she opens her mouth I want to punch the TV! I remember one scene, her and Seymour talking/arguing, I turned the TV off, then waited about 5 minutes before turning it back on!

Personally I love Final Fantasy VII, but I wouldn't go as far to say it's my favourite. There's countless flaws in the story-line, and some of the characters were just rediculous *cough* Yuffie *cough* Cait Sith *cough*.


Seeing as how the vast majority of RPG fans play for the quality of the story, that it what has traditionally received the most attention. But seeing as how the stories have been sliding of late (in my opinion anyway), it seems they are now trying to go down the control method alley. If that continues, I'll stop playing FF games soon, as XII was a utter disgrace of a FF game.

Yeah right! XII was absolutely awesome! The way it interpreted real action gaming into the battle system was just genius! Although I'll admit the Liscence System wasn't the best... who needs points to learn how to wear a hat? Despite that, I thought it had a brilliant story-line, a revolutionary battle system, and it was absolutely magnificent! I can't wait for XIII to come out on the PS3!

If anyone wants to debate, I'll gladly reciprocate, you need only ask.

Are you serious??? Yuna is irritating! Every time she opens her mouth I want to punch the TV! I remember one scene, her and Seymour talking/arguing, I turned the TV off, then waited about 5 minutes before turning it back on!

So what? That doesn't make her a bad character because you didnt like her.


Personally I love Final Fantasy VII, but I wouldn't go as far to say it's my favourite. There's countless flaws in the story-line, and some of the characters were just ridiculous *cough* Yuffie *cough* Cait Sith *cough*.

I have corrected your laughable attempt to spell 'redicolous'

Also, Cait Sith was a high point in regards character development and depth in FFVII.

Try to be civil and what do you get?

Answering to such blatant and pompous hostility is a complete waste of time. I have only ever stated that this argument is purely based on my opinions. Certain characters and storylines will appeal more to different people. This game appealled to me.

FF VII may have a dark world, but the escapist factor is that you get to fight against and defeat those elements. I do play darker games as well, simply because I appreciate their acceptance that the world is not a nice place, and there are certain aspects of it which need to be examined and discussed.

As for the gameplay versus story. It is your opinion that they should be better gameplaywise like KOTOR... why don't you just play KOTOR again? No-one is forcing you to play games like FF VII so don't. It's not like KOTOR is suffering for the existence of this game, and games like it.

Having been playing games since the days of dungeon hack and Eye of the Beholder, I know the difference thank you. But games like FF VII are now commonly referred to as RPGs. Who cares what you call it if people know what you mean?

Characters appeal for any number of reasons. If people think Garnet has a good story, then good for them. I thought her story was tedious and I just didn't care about her. I never said that didn't make her a good character, but why bother swinging off into territory like that? The only place we will arrive at is the old 'There are no good/bad characters - just people's opinions'.

If I look at a game and I enjoy it, why am I honestly going to argue that it should be changed? What possible reason could I have? And whatever kind of ultimate truths people try and hand down, it all stems from their own personal opinions. Prak's notion that Blood Omen for example had a 'better' storyline. Did it? He evidently thinks so. It doesn't mean I have to agree with him.

Storyline, interesting characters, exciting encounters. That's why I play these games, nothing more. If you don't like it, well that's just tough isn't it? I don't see why there's any need to complain, seeing as how FF XII is more action orientated.

As for not understanding Garnet's story... where did that come from? She has a simple story but, and get this, I just didn't like her okay?

I'm not looking for some massive argument, seeing as how the opposing arugment is basically 'Your opinion doesn't matter/You're just wrong/I'm just right'. And I may say, your attitude is appalling. So you feel different to me, big deal. It wasn't like I was using this thread as a springboard to launch a presidential campaign is it?

All you need to ask when you play a game is 'Did I enjoy it?' If the answer is yes, then all is well. As a Master of English Literature, I have some small knowledge of what makes credible literature, and yes, FF VII can hardly make claim to that. But it was a very enjoyable story, a moving and exciting experience. If they have to use graphics and sound to enhance this, then I consider them to be making good use of the technology.

Gaming is a big tent Prak. There's room for all. I do feel I should say however, that the argument Prak is offering is very similar to the one I often have about The Lord of the Rings. I speak out, not in hatred of the book so much, but because I am fed up of people overrating it. So I can understand where he is coming from.

But I find a value in the game's message of hope that is missing from the pessimism of Western products. People may argue about the overall quality of the game but for me, it was and will always be a landmark title.

Okay, I gave you your chance. I gave you a greater measure of civility than most ever see from me. But you ruined it. You are a ridiculously ignorant cunt who thinks it's fine to blather on about your own flawed opinions and reject the sensible notions presented by your peers and your betters, so I am writing you off as a lost cause. It's a shame because you might have had some potential if you only allowed a measure of reality to intrude into your domain of egocentric delusions.

Hi all...

I have just read this whole post from start to finish and it would appear to me that the only problem you both have is a difference of opinion. He happens to like the game (blackest chocobo) and you dont (prak).

Although I agree with what prak says about arguments being based on facts, I dont see how blackest chocobo (will refer to as BC for speed :-)) has started an argument. He simply voiced his opinion on a game he likes (isn't that what this forum is about???)

Anyway I just thought I'd add my two pence, I'm not looking for a fight about it, just think maybe you should just accept the difference of opinion and get on with it.

As an avid player of FF games I would be first to admit it is flawed. Crap control system (X to run all the time?? should have been X to walk when needed) and the materia, as you said prak, makes it too easy to just stick with whichever characters you prefer. I think the problem basically lies in the fact that the game is 10 years old!

One last thing is I actually agree that the characters have no development at all, they all have the same mannerisms (if there can be such a thing in a text base game) even to the end of the game.

Anyhow will wait to see what sort of response I get, since I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with either of you in fact I think you both make relevent points.

Are you serious??? Yuna is irritating! Every time she opens her mouth I want to punch the TV! I remember one scene, her and Seymour talking/arguing, I turned the TV off, then waited about 5 minutes before turning it back on!

Personally I love Final Fantasy VII, but I wouldn't go as far to say it's my favourite. There's countless flaws in the story-line, and some of the characters were just rediculous *cough* Yuffie *cough* Cait Sith *cough*.

sigh.

Again, please read my post. I am no great fan of Yuna (well compared to the other FFX characters), but she is a far better character than Aeris. Now Aeris was just irritating.

Incidentally I disagree again on Cait Sith. He was one of the few characters who hasn't been done on several other RPGs already.

Indeed. He's also the only character who shows any sort of internal conflict about his role in the events of the game. The others are all "We go between point A and B and C, happy go lucky troopers are we."

A forum is for stating opinions, throwing them open and discussing them. If you can't stand the game so much Prak, then why do you come here? I don't like Lord of the Rings, and argue against it when people insist it is the greatest thing ever, but I don't go to forums of people who do like it, with the specific intention of having a go for the sake of it.

As someone who deals with literary and media criticism on a daily basis, I understand the need to be objective when you are presenting a case for how genres like RPGs (or Adventures if you must be so old school) could be bettered in future.

But your concept of what makes a good story is so narrow minded as to be almost unbelieveable. The spectacle factor has always been with us. Is Titus Andronicus a great Shakespeare play? No, but the gore and the violence sell it onstage. When dealing with emotion, you need to give full throat to it. The soaring highs and lows are what carried people along on the ride.

At the end of the day, the designers job was to present a game which was epic and enjoyable, which I think it would be very hard to say that they didn't. Characters like Cloud and Barret are forced to interrogate their own identity and come out with the realisation that they are not the people they thought they were. Barret thinks he's a hero, a strong man willing to do what others won't at the start. Does he end that way? No. He sees the blood on his hands, the friends who died for his cause, under his faulty leadership.

Saying that Cait Sith is the only character who questions their presence... It's the most basic kind of 'spy identifying with the enemy' and you choose that as the significant point to focus on... And this from a man who stated that the writing in Final Fantasy VII was 'sloppy and rushed'. What about KOTOR - one of your own examples? Looping dialogue, bugs aplenty, there are even whole quests missing in KOTOR 2!

I think the main point here has not been that we disagree over the merits of the game (which I'm not denying we certainly do). The main point has been Prak's conduct which is worse than contemptible. If you'd only said that I should be pleased to have so much of your valuable time...

If you cannot participate in a civilised discussion, then perhaps you should go and learn some manners before you return. How do you expect anyone to take gaming as a medium seriously and give it any respect with unsufferable loudmouths like yourselves yelling and bawling at people without checking their facts first. It is an opinion of mine that this game is great, reasons for which I gave. Opinion you understand? That thing which, whilst you may not like it, I am entitled to.

If you choose to behave in such a ridiculous fashion, then that's your right. Just don't expect anyone to actually take you seriously. And there we are... a perfectly innocent thread ruined. And I always thought it just talk about game forums on the net...

hated the story line
characters looked cool
characters had shitty personality's
liked the way u lvled your mako
hated the way u equiped
hated all mini quiest
hated how u can 1 hit kill rufus back in shinra hq with 1 shot bolt 3 (the pussy only had 400hp)

A forum is for stating opinions, throwing them open and discussing them. If you can't stand the game so much Prak, then why do you come here? I don't like Lord of the Rings, and argue against it when people insist it is the greatest thing ever, but I don't go to forums of people who do like it, with the specific intention of having a go for the sake of it.

FFShrine is not like other forums. If you want to be a drooling fanboy and talk about how great FFVII is, go find another site. Most people here, as anybody should be able to see, are not that big fans of FFVII. If anything, this is a site for people who don't like FFVII. Therefore, the boot is on the other foot is this case. By coming here, you have achieved nothing but getting into a debate with Prak et al., and obviously losing badly, since you're making desperate attempts to change the subject.


As someone who deals with literary and media criticism on a daily basis, I understand the need to be objective when you are presenting a case for how genres like RPGs (or Adventures if you must be so old school) could be bettered in future.

Literary and media criticism? What are you, a celebrity or something?


But your concept of what makes a good story is so narrow minded as to be almost unbelieveable. The spectacle factor has always been with us. Is Titus Andronicus a great Shakespeare play? No, but the gore and the violence sell it onstage. When dealing with emotion, you need to give full throat to it. The soaring highs and lows are what carried people along on the ride.

FFVII isn't a good story, it's a cliche one. It's built to appeal to as many people as possible. The same goes for Titus Andronicus; you yourself admitted that it was made to make money. If FFVII's story was truly good, it would be a lot less well-known. Quality and popularity are two completely different things.


At the end of the day, the designers job was to present a game which was epic and enjoyable, which I think it would be very hard to say that they didn't. Characters like Cloud and Barret are forced to interrogate their own identity and come out with the realisation that they are not the people they thought they were. Barret thinks he's a hero, a strong man willing to do what others won't at the start. Does he end that way? No. He sees the blood on his hands, the friends who died for his cause, under his faulty leadership.

On the contrary, it is very easy to say FFVII's story isn't epic... a very predictable twist in Barret's storyline is not enough to make any real difference.


Saying that Cait Sith is the only character who questions their presence... It's the most basic kind of 'spy identifying with the enemy' and you choose that as the significant point to focus on...

At least he gains points for being original... how many other robotic fortune-tellings cats being controlled by the other side do you see in RPGs?


And this from a man who stated that the writing in Final Fantasy VII was 'sloppy and rushed'. What about KOTOR - one of your own examples? Looping dialogue, bugs aplenty, there are even whole quests missing in KOTOR 2!

KOTOR was brought up as an example of the real definition of RPGs, not necessarily as having less glitches. I don't know about bugs in KOTOR, but I know of two in FFVII that trump anything KOTOR could have to offer. One is the W-Item duplication glitch, and the other occurs when you use your Save Crystal in the Northern Crater in the area where you split your party up. You can't get out, and if you save over your save points, you'd have to start a new game from scratch...


I think the main point here has not been that we disagree over the merits of the game (which I'm not denying we certainly do). The main point has been Prak's conduct which is worse than contemptible. If you'd only said that I should be pleased to have so much of your valuable time...

Why should he? Prak isn't a narcissist. Everything he's said has actually been for your own benefit - scoff if you want, but if you look past the insults and "poor conduct", you'll see what he says is quite educational.


If you cannot participate in a civilised discussion, then perhaps you should go and learn some manners before you return. How do you expect anyone to take gaming as a medium seriously and give it any respect with unsufferable loudmouths like yourselves yelling and bawling at people without checking their facts first.

Here's an idea; you're the new guy, you leave. It's unreasonable to ask that everyone treat you any differently to any other person who has claimed what you have claimed. You've actually had a rather smooth welcome, but it won't last long if you keep this up.


It is an opinion of mine that this game is great, reasons for which I gave. Opinion you understand? That thing which, whilst you may not like it, I am entitled to.

That would be a good argument, except for the fact that you posted your opinion here, inviting people to comment on it. Not to mention you repeatedly asked people to say why they thought it was crap. If you don't like what the mean people are saying to you, STFU and/or GTFO, and nobody will degrade your precious opinion.


If you choose to behave in such a ridiculous fashion, then that's your right. Just don't expect anyone to actually take you seriously.

Stop for a minute... imagine someone is saying that to you. Everything makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?


And there we are... a perfectly innocent thread ruined. And I always thought it just talk about game forums on the net...

I can't counter that, mostly because I don't know what you mean.

@ sain: welcome back.

A forum is for stating opinions, throwing them open and discussing them. If you can't stand the game so much Prak, then why do you come here? I don't like Lord of the Rings, and argue against it when people insist it is the greatest thing ever, but I don't go to forums of people who do like it, with the specific intention of having a go for the sake of it.

This forum isn't just for FFVII, moron. In case you didn't notice, it covers an entire series of games and has forums for numerous other topics.

Also, you're a hypocrite. In one sentence, you say that a forum is for stating and discussing opinions, then you claim that I shouldn't post a reply because I don't like what you're posting about. Idiot.


As someone who deals with literary and media criticism on a daily basis, I understand the need to be objective when you are presenting a case for how genres like RPGs (or Adventures if you must be so old school) could be bettered in future.

There's nothing wrong with old school when the new school sucks.


But your concept of what makes a good story is so narrow minded as to be almost unbelieveable. The spectacle factor has always been with us. Is Titus Andronicus a great Shakespeare play? No, but the gore and the violence sell it onstage. When dealing with emotion, you need to give full throat to it. The soaring highs and lows are what carried people along on the ride.

When did I say anything about a spectacle factor? Do you even read what other people post?


At the end of the day, the designers job was to present a game which was epic and enjoyable, which I think it would be very hard to say that they didn't. Characters like Cloud and Barret are forced to interrogate their own identity and come out with the realisation that they are not the people they thought they were. Barret thinks he's a hero, a strong man willing to do what others won't at the start. Does he end that way? No. He sees the blood on his hands, the friends who died for his cause, under his faulty leadership.

Way to write a blurb in place of a real argument. No one here is falling for that tactic.


Saying that Cait Sith is the only character who questions their presence... It's the most basic kind of 'spy identifying with the enemy' and you choose that as the significant point to focus on... And this from a man who stated that the writing in Final Fantasy VII was 'sloppy and rushed'. What about KOTOR - one of your own examples? Looping dialogue, bugs aplenty, there are even whole quests missing in KOTOR 2!

As NW said in the previous post, I never said anything about KOTOR's story. I brought it up as a gameplay example. There is such a thing as context. Most of us learn about it in school. Did you go to school?


I think the main point here has not been that we disagree over the merits of the game (which I'm not denying we certainly do). The main point has been Prak's conduct which is worse than contemptible. If you'd only said that I should be pleased to have so much of your valuable time...

Worse than contemptible, eh? Why's that? Because I called bullshit on your obvious bullshit and showed why it's bullshit? If you can't handle disagreement, post this shit in a livejournal or something.


If you cannot participate in a civilised discussion, then perhaps you should go and learn some manners before you return.

1. As NW said, I've been here longer. You go away.

2. I was perfectly civil until you accused me of not being so. You made the initial attacks on my character, so you have absolutely no right to whine and moan about my reciprocation.


How do you expect anyone to take gaming as a medium seriously and give it any respect with unsufferable loudmouths like yourselves yelling and bawling at people without checking their facts first. It is an opinion of mine that this game is great, reasons for which I gave. Opinion you understand? That thing which, whilst you may not like it, I am entitled to.

Opinions, as I said before, are nothing but distorted personal perceptions of underlying facts. In other words, they are bullshit by their very nature. I don't deal in opinion. If you want to argue with me, argue fact.


If you choose to behave in such a ridiculous fashion, then that's your right. Just don't expect anyone to actually take you seriously. And there we are... a perfectly innocent thread ruined. And I always thought it just talk about game forums on the net...

You'd be amazed how many people take me seriously. I'm the voice of truth and reason, harsh though it may be. People whose heads are not stuck up their own asses can usually see that.

And just for the record, this thread was ruined the moment you posted it because it had no inherent value to begin with.

anyone else thing the words "greatness" should be taken out of this?

Trying to say 'You started it' is about as ridiculous as we could go in this argument, so I'll just say this. My opinions have only ever been delivered in a polite fashion and I expect people to respond in a similar fashion unless provoked otherwise. It's just common courtesy. And I never said you shouldn't post if you didn't like what I posting about - my point was you shouldn't take such a hostile attitude to someone for no reason as it's counter-productive to good debate. I don't think it is wrong to take offence when someone affects such a superior attitude and starts mouthing off. If that's acceptable here then fine, I will find somewhere else because for me it is simply unnacceptable to treat people in such a disrespectful fashion unless they have seriously offended you.

As for being a drooling fanboy... where did that come from exactly? I think I made it quite plain that I did consider there to be faults in this game. That doesn't mean I don't consider it to be amongst the greatest RPGs. Everyone has their favourites.

Simply put, my opinions have been stated. This thread was not intended in any way to lay out the 'Laws of the Universe' on this subject. I simply stated what I thought of the game. I have taken offence at your crass and dismissive attitude, not your right to feel that the game is not great. I disagree strongly with your assessment that there is no character development in the game, or that it would matter greatly anyway (my points about the Shakespeare were to illustrate that even the greatest of writers employ flashy diversions to sell their products - it doesn't make their stories or their writing abilties diminish).

The comments of KOTOR were to illustrate that at least FF VII works for the vast majority! The programming on KOTOR (and particularly its sequel) was disgraceful, with many of the options simply not working. If that is not rushed and sloppy, then what is?

As I said, I deal in the actual merit of texts on a daily basis. I understand completely the value and skills required in proper criticism of products. You have displayed none of these, despite all your boasting. You claimed there was no character progression, yet there is. Claims have been made that the game is not epic, yet it is. It follows all the necessary specifications to be considered an epic.

I make no claims that people MUST find this the greatest RPG of all time. No-one has to like anything. But I don't see how I can have been reasonably expected to know that a site called 'The Final Fantasy Shrine', in a sub-section about FF VII that has the tag-line 'considered the greatest of the FF games', would be full of people who didn't like it!

So that's that. This is apparently a forum where you should not in fact make your opinions known, and certainly not about the topic that the board is concerned with? I don't believe that. Disagree with me if you like, but surrounding your arguments with baseless insults and dismissive comments earns you nothing from me.

The story is a good, enjoyable one. The system is easily sufficient for my needs. I liked it. Since when is it a crime to say such a thing? I am not interested in holding it up as the pinnacle of storytelling genius, because it isn't and I never said it was. I would be very interested to know exactly how you consider Blood Omen in any way credible next to it however (seriously).

And yes, the old school was better than the new in my opinion too. Gaming has been sliding for years, which is very sad. It's good that some people still care about those standards, I really do. It just struck me as odd that it would come up here - adventures and RPGs were never fonts of great gameplay even back in the day. How much skill did you need to play Abandoned Places and Dark Sun?

What do you consider to be an RPG that had good controls then? Secret of Mana perhaps? I hardly think KOTOR counts (and I'm not looking for a massive argument here), because the tactics in that game basically were 'Get Force Lightning Level 3 - use repeatedly'.

I feel we have got off on the wrong foot here, so I am going to withdraw. If people don't like FF VII, it would be pointless to start insisting otherwise when my points are already known. I think it's good, I disagree with you, you disagree with me. Fine. Done.

I would have typed up a massive reply, but since you say you're done, I'll just say:

LOL what a dumb cunt

Characters - little more than cardboard cut outs, with perhaps one or two exceptions.

Storyline - Entertaining enough in parts, but on the whole pretty lame

Greatness - Don't even get me started!

I'm the voice of truth and reason, harsh though it may be.

Prak--I think the voice of truth and reason doesn't need to put things like "disgrace" and "bullshit". >> << >>

But I do agree somewhat with the first large paragraph you posted--

And right there, we hit on a central theme in FFVII's popularity. The PSX struck entirely new demographics who were not previously familiar with gaming's accepted conventions. It was simple. Overly so. It was easy. Overly so. It was designed for a flashy mainstream appeal, which drew in people who probably wouldn't have liked previous games in the series, and completely misrepresented the gaming industry at large. Newcomers to gaming had certain expectations of what the Japanese mistakenly call role-playing games, which would not be met by other games that actually acknowledged the accepted industry paradigms.

There's just one thing I don't agree with completely, though.
"Flashy", etcetera, were partly why it had appealed to many people (and younger audiences)...
But one of the other things were its graphics. I mean--the real-time graphics (the lego-block people)...
Though people criticize the lego block people, I think Squaresoft really did do that on purpose. Final Fantasy VII is really a stylized game (though it's not as obvious as games like Paper Mario or other similar games)--The early character concept art shows a similar style to the lego-blockiness that the real time models have. (I will show links! If you'd like)

There's a lot of humor that was done with the lego-models that don't translate as well into more accurate human-models.
The lego-block character models don't try to show off or anything; they aren't trying to be intimidating or anything....they're almost..."welcoming".

The models, though, are almost a 'contradiction' to the rest of the game; the game's introduction is all flashy and well done, as are the battle models, but then when Cloud pops out from the train, it's almost as if the game threw a curveball at the player. For some people, they never could get used to the lego-people, and kept expecting things when the game wasn't planning on giving that in the first place, and get disappointed too many times and decide to stop playing (especially people I've talked to who watched Advent Children before playing FFVII).

Sometimes, I wish FFVII had taken a more straightforward approach and just had the realtime models be more similar to its battle models....
But then, it'd be just like other games...! It wouldn't be FFVII anymore....
It'd be.....FFVIII. >>

well i think ff 7 has a good story but unfortunetly the graphic was very bad

Norse, you're completely wrong. The very existence of the battle models proves that much. Think about it logically. If the characters were intended to look like lego-people, they would have used the same models in battle. I'm afraid the only logical explanation is that the lego models were devised as placeholders that were intended to be replaced. However, as production of the game was rushed along, the feasibility of that plan was lost and they were deemed acceptable as they were. When you consider that the battle graphics and field graphics were developed separately with the same goals in mind, this is the only thing that makes sense. The battle programmers met their goal, but the field programmers didn't.

Prak--I think the voice of truth and reason doesn't need to put things like "disgrace" and "bullshit". >> << >>



Norse, I honestly don't think you need to put those God awful 'arrows' all over your posts but it isn't going to stop you doing it. :(

Hm. If you didn't like the "arrows", you should have told me earlier...!
It's just that I don't want to come off as harsh when I'm not meaning to be, that's all.


Norse, you're completely wrong. The very existence of the battle models proves that much. Think about it logically. If the characters were intended to look like lego-people, they would have used the same models in battle. I'm afraid the only logical explanation is that the lego models were devised as placeholders that were intended to be replaced. However, as production of the game was rushed along, the feasibility of that plan was lost and they were deemed acceptable as they were. When you consider that the battle graphics and field graphics were developed separately with the same goals in mind, this is the only thing that makes sense. The battle programmers met their goal, but the field programmers didn't.

That's why I said the "lego-block" models are almost a contradiction to the other parts of the game, including FMVs and battles.
I took the Battle System models as a different thing--the fact that they exist show that they were technologically capable of making better models--it's just that they didn't. I think they chose not to, for a reason--

Since you didn't seem to believe that the character models were meant to look like lego-people, I'll show you the early concept art:

Adventure, RPG, FPS, MMO... there are a lot of designations for a lot of different games. Movies, music, and any form of entertainment is constantly being grouped in genres. However, there is never a set list or guide as to what puts one game in genre A and another in genre B. In fact, many games are classified differently by different people. So, who cares if FF7 is an RPG or an Adventure game, it's purely entertainment. However, I tend to agree with whoever said it was more like an interactive story book, because I couldn't put the game down, much like a good book.

Of course, we can all argue about all the flaws from all the games in the world and not get anywhere. People trying to make Top 10 lists or Greatest "Insert vague genre here" Games of All Time are really just trying to find the gold at the end of a rainbow. Sure it's colorful and the journey is memorable, but the end result is just disappointment for what is ultimately left out.

I know that I thoroughly enjoyed the story in Final Fantasy 7. The graphics had its problems, as did the controls, but it was a new system and at the time a revolutionary game. So, some are excusable. The X button run thing is annoying as hell, I agree. Sure its overly simple in a lot of places, but when I first played it at 12 years of age, that's what I needed. I'm replaying it now on the PC with a bunch of the cool mods and "updated graphics." I'm finding it enjoyable again, which I believe is a testament to the game.

Is it the best game ever? Sure, in a lot of people's eyes it was. Is it the best Final Fantasy ever, I don't know, and who cares? You're all here because at some point one of the games left an impact on you. And a great many of you will buy and play FFXIII when it's released. Why? Because you're a fan of the series, and we all hope that the next one will be better, that it will fix any wrongs we felt were in the previous ones. My only hope for XIII is that it comes out on the 360, too, because while I'm falling in love again with the FF series, I'm not falling in $600 love with it and I already have a 360 (I bought it on Amazon when they sold 1000 of them for $100!).

Since I'm in the middle of VII right now, would anyone like to recommend the next one for me to play? I was thinking of moving on to IX or X after this, then probably XII.

The prospect of XII does sound great to me. I've never been huge on the turn-based combat system, so the move to a different style would be neat to try. I'm really excited to try out Blue Dragon, but that's for a different forum entirely.

Try the "Tales of" games or Suikoden instead.

Since I'm in the middle of VII right now, would anyone like to recommend the next one for me to play? I was thinking of moving on to IX or X after this, then probably XII.

FFIX if you are really set on playing another FF next.

Hm. If you didn't like the "arrows", you should have told me earlier...!
It's just that I don't want to come off as harsh when I'm not meaning to be, that's all.

lol. I'm pretty sure that nobody thought you were being harsh at all - but if you're ever in doubt that's what the smilies are here for ;)

Hm. If you didn't like the "arrows", you should have told me earlier...!
It's just that I don't want to come off as harsh when I'm not meaning to be, that's all.

Norse, my point was that you can't control what other people post. I actually agree with you about Prak.

As for the arrows I just find that they make reading your posts a chore, somehow.

if you wanna see some funny stuff, goto http://egoraptor.webmoron.net/flashff7.html

But I gotta warn you, there is a lot of swearing!

To see the next one, go to http://egoraptor.webmoron.net/flashff72.html

Also a lot of swearing!

Post your thoughts!

-

Just a sidenote on the RE and DMC graphics stuff. The clips aren't pre-rendered, so they're going to look "soft" period.

And I'll say this time and again. Where's the fucking proof that it was a "revolution" at all?

-

And I'll say this time and again. Where's the fucking proof that it was a "revolution" at all?

According to here: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution)


3. a sudden, complete or marked change in something.

FFVII was the first FF to be released in disc form, for a Sony, not Nintendo, console. It had completely different graphics, story, character structure (though both put characters for no reason in.) Gone were 'desperation' attacks, in were limits, which have featured, albeit in very different ways, in every later FF with the exception of X-2. From being a relatively unknown game series outside of Japan, suddenly it was everybody's favourite game. Look at FFVI and FFVII, and imagine for a moment you didn't know the title of either game. Would you put them in the same category? If you need more proof, I'll be happy to provide it.

PS: I am not saying FFVII is better. Repeat, I am not saying FFVII is better. I am just answering z.zetsumei's question

Nukey, the only part of your explanation I agree with is that it became hugely popular outside of Japan, mostly down its advertising campaign. Possibly agree with you on graphics too. Though FFVI did occasionally wander into 3D territory, for example when you rode a chocobo or during the opening scene, and with the underwater part of the Veldt river when you meet Gau.

The other changes you mentioned were either so small as to be insignificant or certainly not deserving of 'revolutionary' status. Limits and desperation attacks are essentially the same thing, a powerful attack when your character has taken a lot of punishment. The change in format and the change to discs are merely an advancement of the times and credit for that revolution should not lie with FFVII, rather Sony who made 32-bit gaming popular with the masses. You could add your graphics argument here too, if you failed to be impressed by my earlier attempt to answer it.

I don't see what was revolutionary about FFVII's story and characters to be honest. If revolutionary means doing a similar (arguably inferior) job with far greater resources, then yeah, I agree. FFVII was revolutionary I guess........ ;)

Hey Nuke, you realize that your argument can be applied to just about every game in general? All the changes with FF7 that you stated made it fit in with all the changes in other games as well, which would mean that it made changes akin to the others, thus negating any "revolutionary" aspects it may have had.

I think FFVII is a humble game in itself.
The game brings the player in easily, and though it tries to "wow" you in the first FMV scene, the opening screen is very non-descript and simple, and the real-time lego-block models don't try to be overly "cool" or intimidating or anything, and are almost kind of "cute" or "childish"....

It's just...the advertisement, the marketing, and many of the fanboys--they weren't humble at all.

The game brings the player in easily, and though it tries to "wow" you in the first.

Yes, a train pulling into a station really 'wowed' me......

As it happened I didn't have a problem with the opening scenes myself. It was only past the first disc that I felt the game was proving to be disappointing.

Still I do agree. Only thing revolutionary about FF7 was how it was promoted.

what was revolutionary was the graphics. At that time, it was the only "RPG" that had pre-rendered backgrounds with polygonal characters and lots of CG cut scenes. It's story was revolutionary too for a game. It was told in other media, but not really in a game. At least not in a mature way like this.

Suikoden and WildArms took the old approach with 2D graphics with occasional polygonal effects.

Only thing revolutionary about FF7 was how it was promoted.

That might be true....

It's just--there have also been things that were promoted and advertised on a large scale, and were still failures.
...So I think there's at least something that FFVII did that made it stand out, other than just advertisement--something that it did by itself.

Hmm....
What advertisement does is increase hype and expectations.
If anything, I'd expect that to have the opposite effect on its fame; when people expect more, it's easier for them to become disappointed....

That might be true....
Hmm....
What advertisement does is increase hype and expectations.
If anything, I'd expect that to have the opposite effect on its fame; when people expect more, it's easier for them to become disappointed....

What the advertising also did is attract fans to the FF series, who hadn't even been aware of it's existence before. For many people, FF7 was the first game in that series that they'd ever played, and the first kind of game of it's kind that they'd ever played.

Unlike the fans who'd already played the previous FF games, and other technically better RPG games, these other fans wouldn't have had prior expectations - so wouldn't have been disappointed. The flaws in the game wouldn't have stood out to them, as obviously to those who were more familiar with what went into the making of a good RPG game.

I fell into that earlier category myself, when first playing FF7. At the time I hadn't a clue as to what the previous Final Fantasy games had been like. Instead I was just wowed by the FMV's, as hadn't seen anything like that before in a game at the time - and then thought the storyline looked interesting so decided to play. It was only later on, when I began comparing it to other games, that I begun to think of it as overrated.