Yes they have and they say you are full of bullshit becuase all your reasons make no logical sense and that you have missed the details and the main points of the things you hate that make them great.

Go play the game again with a more open mind and then you might see that it is a good game.

Oh, then where the fucking hell are they?? Or are they your imaginary friends? If they thought our arguments were such bullshit then I think they would have said something already.

They don't talk on these things becuase they arent members so thsy can't and they have more important things to do besides drill things into thickheaded idiots and they find it much more fun to laugh at you guys then respond.

This is getting ridiculous. Trekkies, I have already said public opinion is an issue we have discussed. I take an example to prove that public opinion is even more of bullshit than anything else: Halo. I have played it, and it's nothing more than a game where you go around shooting people. I don't care how good the graphics are, it's no better than Contra, which came out for NES. However, a great deal of people seem to think it's the best game ever made, which it definitely is NOT. So, the moral here is, if most people think something, then it's probably wrong anyway.

I will once again make a futile attempt to stop the namecalling.

How many times have I said this entire thread is opinion yet none of them want to except it. And there are many things that most people think that aren't wrong.

They don't talk on these things becuase they arent members so thsy can't and they have more important things to do besides drill things into thickheaded idiots and they find it much more fun to laugh at you guys then respond.
Get em the fuck over here cause it's free!

I've tried and they don't want to becuase they know that even if they rip you apart and destroy your arguments which they are perfectly capable of doing your still gonna bitch, put words in their mouths, doctor quotes, pick at minor nonimportant details, and just bitch about how the gamemakers didnt go out of thier way to accomidate your wants and need, and just ramble on about meaningless shit.

No, they probably wont, they'll probably just say the same thing as you and they are probably to scared or whatever to do that...oh well, but we aren't the ones bitching, just stating facts...

Trust me they would blow you to bits with they're arguments and the way they word things and make you think. You guys are just too cocky and full of yourselfs to think that "fanboys" could outwit you.

No, we aren't really, but if they suck at arguing as much as you do then I think we would still be the better debaters...and we would have more supported facts. Plus, Prak's really good at debating(I wish I was as good as him), he would probably blow them out of the water.

Thats it they don't suck. I admit it I do suck at arguing. But, they can blow some of the best debaters in my school out of the water and would find you guys pathetic.

Oh, really...I find that hard to believe, unless they were on debate or something.

Some of them are.

Some of them are.
Well, if you don't get them to post, then I don't think I can believe you.

Trust me they would blow you to bits with they're arguments and the way they word things and make you think. You guys are just too cocky and full of yourselfs to think that "fanboys" could outwit you.

Two things. Firstly, you haven't made yourself very trustworthy. Second, explain why I, who am a fan of FFVII, (it's my favorite of the series) has come to a more moderate conclusion about FFVII. Explain why I believe Rabid Monkey's, Smokey's, and Prak's arguments to be infinitely superior to yours when I myself prefer FFVII to all of the others,

Thievy(hope you don't mind if I call you that cause your name's too long) got ya there Trekkie.

Thievy(hope you don't mind if I call you that cause your name's too long) got ya there Trekkie.

Actually, that's kind of catchy.

I think you are the perfect example for Trekkie to see that his fanboy thoughts aren't always right.

I'm not saying they're always right I'm saying that your not always right either.

And that gets us nowhere.

The point I was making is that Smokey and Prak (Rabid Monkey hasn't really bothered with this thread in a while) are not just ignoring your points, they're just misinterpereting them. I'm not necessarily saying you just can't communicate, but you should never make your opponent work hard to understand your point. I believe that FFVII had the potential to be the best in the series, with the wonderful musical score and the PSX they got to work with. However, Square did a poor job of wrapping up the story at the end, and they also made the story overall a little too simple. Nonetheless, FFVII had some very good things about it, such as the way it portrayed slum life in Midgar and how innocent people were killed when AVALANCHE blew up the reactor. The story begins extremely well; it just doesn't keep you guessing for the rest of the game. If it did, it might have just been the best of the FFs. Compared to FFIV and FFVI, FFVII was not a very good game. However, if you compare it to a game like Halo, (I really dislike first person shooters, and this one's no different from the rest) FFVII seems like the best game ever made. So I think that FFVII is a good game, just not the best of the FFs, and certainly not the best Square put out there. I think Chrono Trigger may be the best game Square came out with, although it was a tad too easy. The story of Chrono Trigger I think is unparalleled by any other game that I've played.

Just out of curiosity, Trekkies, how many times have you played through FFVII?

(Rabid Monkey hasn't really bothered with this thread in a while)

I get a kick out of just reading it.

Ive played through it twice and i'm debating to do it a third time and both times through i did everything possible. I just finished the second time through about a month or two ago.

Well, the first time I played through I didn't bother getting everything, but I ended up getting most of the stuff anyway, the only thing I missed was Ultima Weapon, I have played through the damn game 5 times through and I'm sick of it too!

Ive played through it twice and i'm debating to do it a third time and both times through i did everything possible. I just finished the second time through about a month or two ago.

I've done it four times, all of which I got my characters to level 99 and got three sets of master materia. I also beat the WEAPONs. Each time I figured out something new about the plot. No game should make you work so hard to figure out an incomplete plot.

well its really not making you work hard its just showing you things you missed or forgot. the reason it makes you understand the story more is becuase now you've seen the end so now earlier things make more sense.

The thing is, the little things in the game that you realize work out don't show up until the second time through, because they aren't memorable enough. For someone like me who can play FF games over and over again without getting tired, this isn't quite as much of a bad thing, but if you only play it once through, you don't get any of the effects of these plot devices. Also, Square did not make FFVII to be a very replayable game. Otherwise they would have put in something you can only do after you've beaten it, like new game+ in Chrono Trigger.

By the way, your arguments are steadily getting better. Keep it up, because this is actually starting to look like a debate now.

I get a kick out of just reading it.

Agreed

Hey thanks for the compliment FF1withallthieves.

FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!! FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!

...Whoops......

Someone please close this thread!

FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!! FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!FINAL FANTASY VII IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!

...Whoops......
stfu and gtfo, kthxbye.

Thats the kind of idiot that makes us fans look bad.

yeah I think FFVII is the best Final Fantasy game ever

*sniff* Won't someone please close this thread?!

i think it should stay open just get rid of the idiots

I quote the Y-wing pilot for the second time in my ffshrine history: "There's too many of them!"

Come on! Close the thread already!

If you close this one then you'll have to close the other one to make it fair.

No, just leave one open and have all the debating there.

Or get rid of both and start a new called FFVII what makes it stand and fall. Then bring in the strong arguments from both sides that way there is no biased side.

That would be a complete waste of time.

Um, yeah, complete waste of time, we already have two of the damn things, just keep one.

But both are biased.

Everyone's biased. Besides, it's not like the title of the thread gives one side the upper hand.

i need help. is it possible to play ff7 in windows xp. i tried and failed so if someone could reply with an answer i would really appriciate it. Thank you.

Theres a special patch u need to download which you can find at www.downloads.com

Or u can always tell it to run the program in windows 98 mode.

Yeah, just make one of these the official thread(ask someone to sticky it)and have all the stuff here or at the other thread.

Actually, both threads are getting pretty redundant. At the very least, it should be cut down to one. Would Rabid Monkey please respond to this, seeing as how he started the whole thing?

Either that or we can call the debate a stalemate and end it.

I don't think this was a stalemate. Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak did such a superior job of debating to the fanboys in general that it can't be called a stalemate. Even if FFVII is a good game, if someone who has never played FFVII before read this thread, then he/she would be far more convinced that FFVII is not a good game. In the end, that's how you determine who wins. So unless somone is going to pull of some miracle revelation that proves once and for all that FFVII is a good game, I would have to say that the FFVII fans lose this thread. Even if Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak don't win, the fanboys lose because they earned negative points.

the only thing i can think of that makes ffvii a good game is the characters. the music isn't all that great. the lack of jobs gets very annoying as people serve no absolute purpose. this game was overhyped.

The only thing you mentioned that hasn't already been said was about the music, and I doubt you have factual basis for that.

I once again plea for this thread to be closed.

close both cuz both are reaching this point.

but what we should do before it closes is have one more fan post in here and one more hater post in the other thread as like a wrap up or final plea that puts all our points together.

in my opinion FF7 is the best FF game ever but this is just in my opinion I also liked the Materia system. I also think this one had the coolest characters

Seen as though I opened the thread, I am the fan poster! FFVII is the best and I will always love it, whatever other people think of it. The end.

Now all there is, is the person to post who hates it...Prak probably...

Why should I bother? I've already impaled it through the heart more times than I can count.

Why should I bother? I've already impaled it through the heart more times than I can count.

Just to finish off this goddamn thread once and for all. Go on. You know its always me and you against each other with FF7. :D

Okay, fine. It wasn't a good game because the characters are one-dimensional, the story was predictable and full of holes, the materia system rendered most of your characters useless and had a poor management system, the control was awkward, the villain (who was the most developed character in the entire game, sadly) was just an emo jerk with a mother complex on a power trip who essentially ripped off Kefka's plans and didn't even succeed, and the ending sucked balls.

Do you want to contest any of those or shall I list more complaints? ;)

Prak, that is an almighty answer. FF7 is good game just coz i said so :-P

Okay, fine. It wasn't a good game because the characters are one-dimensional

Fair enough. I cant argue with that.


the story was predictable and full of holes

I disagree. Maybe full of holes, but not so predictable. and I would rank it as the second best story of all the FF games (9 being the best) but still it leaves you to use your imagination to fill those holes.


the materia system rendered most of your characters useless and had a poor management system

I compltely disagree. The materia system was very versatile. maybe not as versatile as the Junction system of FF8, but much more user friendly. How on earth did it render your character's useless? And the management system depended on how you played the game.


the control was awkward

Why? Because the X and O were used in a way most games wouldnt. That just makes it unique and unlike other games.


the villain (who was the most developed character in the entire game, sadly) was just an emo jerk with a mother complex on a power trip who essentially ripped off Kefka's plans and didn't even succeed, and the ending sucked balls.

Quite frankly I would be more scared of Sephiroth than Kefka. And there had to be something wrong with him to be a villain, what would be the point of a sane villain?


Do you want to contest any of those or shall I list more complaints? ;)

Happy? (I guess this thread may not close after all...)

I just changed around the X and the O. It isnt that hard.

I didnt change it, but what is akward about it?

it was just a bit backwards. But i dont think thats what Prak means about the uncomfortable controlling. Alot of it was uncomfortable.

When?

moving around in general was really dodgy, and in the menu screen, i would always get lost because of the confusing way the buttons were set up.

Well I never got lost once. And where was it dodgy?

Prak could explain it much better than me

You're not siding with Prak are you?

I love FF7 purely for the characters and storyline, and to be quite honest, the graphics suck.

If FF7 didn't have such a great storyline, I would deem it a terrible game.
Just goes to show gameplay overrides graphics...

I love FF7 purely for the characters and storyline, and to be quite honest, the graphics suck.

If FF7 didn't have such a great storyline, I would deem it a terrible game.
Just goes to show gameplay overrides graphics...

That won't convince Prak.

I'm not trying to convince Prak, I'm just merely stating my views.
I also agree with Gast when he says that the storyline was full of holes, but was not at all predictable.

Actually, it was pretty obvious what was gonna happen, I predicted that Aeris was gonna die when Bugenhagen was talking about the lifestream and the ancients and stuff.

I love FF7 purely for the characters and storyline, and to be quite honest, the graphics suck.

If FF7 didn't have such a great storyline, I would deem it a terrible game.
Just goes to show gameplay overrides graphics...

When did anyone say it was a bad game because of the graphics? PLEASE support your opinions with facts from the game or don't post in a debate thread.

Ok here is my wrap up

When you guys say that the characters sucked well I just have to say that you didn�t pay attention to them. The characters had great emotional depth and had changing motives. Cloud for example is extremely emotional when Aeris dies and when Sephiroth destroys Nibelheim he gets totally pissed and kills him. His motives take a complete 180� turn he starts off just helping Barret and Tifa for the money they pay him all he cares about in the first mission is if he�s getting paid, the only reason he stays with the two is because Tifa offers Cloud more money that was intended for Marlene. Then later he encounters Aeris and decides to guard her until he returns to sector 7. Then it becomes to save Aeris after she is kidnapped and after that it becomes his main foundation goal, to settle the score with Sephiroth. A little farther down the road the fact that they have to save the planet from both Shinra and Sephiroth is added to the goals and finally avenging Aeris� death is added on top of all these motives. How does this make a character suck and be 1 dimensional?

The story I thought was great, it went through major changes and plot developments. It really wasn�t full of holes if you paid attention and were able to piece the things together from previous knowledge, in fact I can�t even think of a part that wasn�t explained or any questions that needed answered unlike FFX where your still don�t understand the whole Tidus being a dream thing and such in the end because there is not enough info. And you guys say there are no plot developments that everything is just an obstacle in the path because it doesn�t change how we feel about the characters, well a plot development doesn�t have to change how the reader/player feels about the characters they are also used to reinforce our previous feelings on the characters. A great example of this is in �To Kill A Mockingbird�. In the story Bob Ewell is seen as trash and is hated by the reader in the beginning and after the trial. After the trial Bob Ewell harasses Helen, breaks into the judge�s house, and threatens Atticus. Does this make us go �wow we now like Bob Ewell�? NO!!! It makes us hate him even more and those are all major plot developments. When he attacks Scout and Jem and is killed by Boo Radley do we feel sorry for him and hate Boo? NO!! We now just hate Bob even more and see him as even bigger trash and feel even sorrier for Boo. Obviously you don�t know as much about plot development as you think you do.

The ending as I have said countless times didn�t suck. It was a great cliffhanger to give suspense and to give the players the ability to come up with their own ideas and speculations on what really happened. This is all the more fun and can spark debates that for a lot of people are just plain fun to do. And here is what I said earlier about the ending that I think is a great example of the why the ending is good� �I�d have to say that The Lady and the Tiger makes the perfect counter-argument. It gives you enough information that you can draw your own conclusion leaving you with a meaningful experience of what you feel at the end. Final Fantasy VII is just like this. The whole entire game is centered around life or Mako, and death, Midgar. You could even consider these the two doors that the man were forced to chose from. The game builds and builds on this giving you information to help you make your final decision. So finally the ending comes, and it leaves you hanging. To whether or not the earth chose Life or Death and it is up for you to decide.... but wait.... they leave a little special clip at the end... the scene with Nanaki that can help sway your decision. In all honestly, Final Fantasy VII�s ending was brilliant. And to say that The Lady and the Tiger and Final Fantasy VII are nothing alike is just a horrible comparison. Clearly, two doors are in both, and only one can be chosen. These both have great impacts on your opinion of the world. I don�t know how you can say Final Fantasy VII has no meaning.... When it carries a similar message of Life and Death as The Lady and the Tiger. Yet you say The Lady, and the Tiger was meaningful.... it just doesn�t make sense to me how things that are so similar can be perceived by you as entirely different. I just cannot fathom it, I�m sorry. There are moral issues I haven�t even covered here that are centered around this Life and Death theme, that all add to the story and I would be glad to share them with you.�

Now the Materia System wasn�t the greatest system but it was still pretty cool. It was one of the games challenges because it took away stats from your characters thus making it harder. And there was still the uniqueness and usefulness in the characters. Some of the characters had more MP than others thus meaning they are supposed to use the materia that requires more MP while the other characters are supposed to use the basic magics that require less MP and those are the ones that do more physical damage. Look at Cloud and Aeris, in the beginning Cloud has little MP and does little magical damage but can do godly physical damage while Aeris does pathetic physical damage but has more MP and can do godly magical damage. So as you can see the characters are still useful and unique.

Now this is short but Prak how can you say the controls are awkward? THEY�RE THEY SAME DAMN THINGS AS THEY ARE IN ALL THE OTHER FINAL FANTASYS!!!!

Sephiroth I think was a great villain not because he was well developed and maniacal but because he was a rare and unique villain who had the same basic goal as the characters but his solution to it was the extreme and ultimate solution to the problem while the main characters had an effective less radical solution to the problem.

And in case there is still any question about my facts on why Sephiroth didn�t kill Aeris here is my reasoning yet again to prove it is not speculation. How it is speculation when the game has clearly defined these points for you:
1. Sephiroph�s physical body is embedded in the crater the entire game... this is made clear.. I believe the game even shouts it in your face... forgive but I forget the scene.. It is most possibly when Cloud hands over the black materia.
2. Since part 1 is proven, then clearly Sephiroph cannot have possibly killed Aerith... and then you must conclude it is some other form. What form is the big question. I dunno if my memory is messed up or I�ve been having weird fantasies, but I do recall from the game I time when we realize that the Sephiroph we�re trailing but a clone. A clone made from Jenova.
Therefore it is not complete speculation that I have come to this conclusion and it is based mostly on facts that I feel confident enough to say this.

This is why I believe FFVII was the best Final Fantasy and possibly one of the best if not the best game ever made.

its a perfect game...cause its just perfect,thats why

Its idiotic fanboys like you that make people like us who actually support our claims with facts and examples look bad, if your gonna make a statement like that support it cuz right now your making us look bad and killing our arguments.

Since what he said makes me and other fanboys look you guys might want to go back and read my wrap up.

Ok, I guess it's my turn to take a stab at this.


Cloud for example is extremely emotional when Aeris dies
Extremely emotional? More like extremely unemotional. All he did was watch her get killed, wave goodbye to Sephiroth, then send her to the bottom of a lake. That's it.


and when Sephiroth destroys Nibelheim he gets totally pissed and kills him.
Well, there is only one thing that I can counter this with...


What the heck would you do in a situation like that?


Then later he encounters Aeris and decides to guard her until he returns to sector 7.
If I recall correctly, Aeris didn't really give Cloud much of a choice. So Cloud pretty much had to protect her.


How does this make a character suck and be 1 dimensional?
Well for one, you said that the characters had great emotional depth and changing motives. You only gave a couple examples with <I>one</I> character, which were pretty bad if I may point out myself.


Tt really wasn�t full of holes if you paid attention and were able to piece the things together from previous knowledge,
Who is the guy in the sewer in the beginning of the game? Is it Zack or just an average person? There has been so much speculation that it might actually be him there; so that would mean that whole scene with Zack and Cloud getting shot is a hoax.


in fact I can�t even think of a part that wasn�t explained or any questions that needed answered
Look above, and that is only one of several that I could throw your way.


A great example of this is in �To Kill A Mockingbird�. In the story Bob Ewell is seen as trash and is hated by the reader in the beginning and after the trial. After the trial Bob Ewell harasses Helen, breaks into the judge�s house, and threatens Atticus. Does this make us go �wow we now like Bob Ewell�? NO!!! It makes us hate him even more and those are al major plot developments. When he attacks Scout and Jem and is killed by Boo Radley do we feel sorry for him and hate Boo? NO!! We now just hate Bob even more and see him as even bigger trash and feel even sorrier for Boo. Obviously you don�t know as much about plot development as you think you do.
So you just put this in here to make it seem like your 'huge' post actually had some merit in it? I mean seriously, you're bringing up novels now?


It was a great cliffhanger to give suspense and to give the players the ability to come up with their own ideas and speculations on what really happened.
What cliffhanger!? There was nothing to the ending. It showed Red XIII with two little cats running with him, and then some grass.


This is all the more fun and can spark debates that for a lot of people are just plain fun to do.
You keep saying that the ending let's the gamer come up with several different possibilites as to what really happened. Well then, let's hear ALL of yours. And also, I haven't seen anyone else come up with their own opinion on what the ending was supposed to tell us.


So finally the ending comes, and it leaves you hanging. To whether or not the earth chose Life or Death and it is up for you to decide.... but wait.... they leave a little special clip at the end... the scene with Nanaki that can help sway your decision. In all honestly, Final Fantasy VII�s ending was brilliant.
In all honesty, you are trying to sound like a master writer or something, when it makes no sense.


Now the Materia System wasn�t the greatest system but it was still pretty cool. It was one of the games challenges because it took away stats from your characters thus making it harder.
But that's a point I have been trying to make for quite some time now; a game shouldn't have to take something away in order to make it harder. Good games add something that brings the difficulty up, not taking something away.


Look at Cloud and Aeris, in the beginning Cloud has little MP and does little magical damage but can do godly physical damage while Aeris does pathetic physical damage but has more MP and can do godly magical damage. So as you can see the characters are still useful and unique.
Um, no, sorry. Are you in your own little world or something again, because I hope you never find the ticket to come back here.

Cloud is capable of having almost as much MP as Aeris does in the beginning; it just depends on how much Materia you give him. And no, he doesn't do 'godly' physical damage as you say; although it is the best in the party. And it's vice versa with Aeris as well, she does not do 'godly' magical damage. It's only the best in the party at that moment.


Sephiroth I think was a great villain not because he was well developed and maniacal but because he was a rare and unique villain who had the same basic goal as the characters but his solution to it was the extreme and ultimate solution to the problem while the main characters had an effective less radical solution to the problem.
So you are saying that Sephiroth wasn't well developed and wasn't manical? It's good to finally see you admit something that is true for once in your life.

And please explain to me how in the world Sephiroth is a rare and unique villian. No, it's not his hair or his long sword either.


This is why I believe FFVII was the best Final Fantasy and possibly one of the best if not the best game ever made.
Wow, the worst example ever as to what makes FFVII one of the best games of all time.

I love you trekki. Seeing the responses to your posts makes my day.

nice pic of Wee Man there

nice pic of Wee Man there
Thanks, it took forever to find a picture of a damn umpa.

I'm not even going to bother with trekkie now because I've already asskicked everything he said in that last post. He's just spouting the same rhetoric he always does in the hope that if he says it enough times, it'll become true.

I will address the controls and materia management questions though. The controls were awkward because:

1) The default movement is walking, which is utter bullshit. Most of the time, you'll want to run, so why not make running the default movement and have you hold down a button to walk? Very stupid.

2) Directional controls could be very awkward. I often wound up running in the wrong direction because I didn't know how the controls would respond in areas with stranger camera perspectives. However, that may just have been a failing of the PC version. I can't know for sure.

Materia management was flawed in that there were no provisions in the game to quickly remove all materia from a character, transfer them quickly between characters, remove materia from characters not in the current party, or adequately sort them. It made rearranging them a complete hassle.

My gripe about materia rendering many of the characters useless was obviously misunderstood by some people, so i'll clarify. Every character was capable of doing the same tasks in combat and could be easily changed, so there was really no reason at all to focus on any characters except your preferred party. The rest of the characters got tossed to the sidelines because they had nothing unique that gave them a distinct purpose.

your description on movement is exactly what i was thinking, Prak

1) The default movement is walking, which is utter bullshit. Most of the time, you'll want to run, so why not make running the default movement and have you hold down a button to walk? Very stupid.

So what? Holding down x is not that hard. The analogue controllers were not released at that time, so you couldnt have the movement based around that. In racing games you have to hold down X to move fast.


2) Directional controls could be very awkward. I often wound up running in the wrong direction because I didn't know how the controls would respond in areas with stranger camera perspectives. However, that may just have been a failing of the PC version. I can't know for sure.

Some areas did have strange camera angles. But you find that in any game, even in Final Fantasy VIII, when you go into space on disc 3, which i am sure you like more than FF7.


Materia management was flawed in that there were no provisions in the game to quickly remove all materia from a character, transfer them quickly between characters, remove materia from characters not in the current party, or adequately sort them. It made rearranging them a complete hassle.

Yes there was. If you only played the PC version it may be different, I dont know. But in the materia menu you can go Arrange and select Remove All, Transfer and Arrange to do all three things you listed above.


My gripe about materia rendering many of the characters useless was obviously misunderstood by some people, so i'll clarify. Every character was capable of doing the same tasks in combat and could be easily changed, so there was really no reason at all to focus on any characters except your preferred party. The rest of the characters got tossed to the sidelines because they had nothing unique that gave them a distinct purpose.[/quote]

Not necessarily, there would be no point giving Barret or Cid the best magic at the beginning of the game because Aeris is a lot better at magic than the rest of the characters. Each character was either physical, magical or a mixture of both. But at the end of the game when you train them up enough, then yes, all characters are virtually the same and it is a matter of personal preference. But isnt that the same in all FF's?


I'm sure Prak that this will continue for much longer as it always has (:-P althought you said yourself that I was one of the few people who had a convincing argument about FF7 :-)).

Ok smokey you have once again missed my points completely and have taken things out of context to make them fit your argument that I make no sense when in actuality if you put them into context they make perfect sense.

First of all I said sephiroth was a good villain in spite of the fact he is maniacal well developed meaning that he has those qualities and the ones I added.

Secondly when I used "To Kill A Mockingbird" I didn't use it just to give my post merit and to quote a novel i used it as an example which if you go back put it in context and read it makes perfect sense and is the perfect example.

Thirdly I posted a lot more of Clouds character development than you posted and I didn't post all the others becuase I didn't think you guys wanted to read a novel unless you do. And Cloud is very emotional when Aeris dies, either you forget the scene and characters lines or you don't put any emotion or voice into what the characters say and just read the words and if you do that then yes there is no emotion in that scene. And if he had no emotion like you say then in the nibleheim scene instead of killing spehiroth he would just say "oh well...I don't care" and walk away.

And when you say the ending wasn't a cliffhanger well then I just have to ask ARE YOU ON DRUGS?!?! the ending is a major cliffhanger or do you just not understand what you watch and just go oooh pretty colors.

Now games can totally take away stats to make it challenging. multiple great games have done this. some examples are PSO, Diablo 2, FFX, WoW, etc. its called having to make sacrifices in the game which is a perfect way to make a game challenging.

And if Cloud is capable of having as much MP as Aeris in the begining then why does Cloud at most likely lvl 8 when you find Aeris have only abot 68 MP while Aeris who is at lvl 5 have 128 MP??

And finally the reason I was repeating myself was becuase it was a WRAP UP!!! meaning bringing all my points together and putting them into one final statement.

The ending was not a cliffhanger, and suggesting that Smokey is on drugs doesn't make it one. When I first saw it, my response was, "WTF!? If the planet just saved itself, what the hell was the purpose of the game?" As soon as I heard the music change, I knew everything was going to be fine. AND it showed the beginning scene of Aeris, the meaning of which I have only determined to be that she was looking at the lifestream at the beginning. It was as though Square was saying, "Oh, by the way, the green stuff at the beginning was the lifestream. Sorry if we confused you." It didn't explain anything. If the ending was a cliffhanger, then tell us what the cliffhanger was instead of just saying that it was a cliffhanger and that Smokey is on drugs.

You just said the cliffhanger! we don't know if the human race survived, we dont know what happened next, and it didnt explain what happened.

It's an awesome game because of the materia system, the story, the characters, I mean, everything about it rocks. ^_^
yeh i agree about the materia bit, on ffx you have to work and get your stuff, it can be annoying :-(

It didn't explain anything. If the ending was a cliffhanger, then tell us what the cliffhanger was instead of just saying that it was a cliffhanger and that Smokey is on drugs.

See, you did!

Its idiotic fanboys like you that make people like us who actually support our claims with facts and examples look bad, if your gonna make a statement like that support it cuz right now your making us look bad and killing our arguments.

Since what he said makes me and other fanboys look you guys might want to go back and read my wrap up.

maybe u should take a damn chill pill:P

well when you make comments like what you did with no supporting facts ur gonna get eaten alive and it makes those of us that do give good arguments with supporting facts look bad.

Ok smokey you have once again missed my points completely and have taken things out of context to make them fit your argument that I make no sense when in actuality if you put them into context they make perfect sense.
Here goes that 'taking my words out of context' crap. I quoted exactly what you posted. I didn't quote everything, because I figured that stuff didn't deserve mentioning.


First of all I said sephiroth was a good villain in spite of the fact he is maniacal well developed meaning that he has those qualities and the ones I added.
No, you said that Sephiroth was a great villian <I>because</I> he is rare and unique. That's all you said about it, once again just saying stuff to hear yourself talk without backing up your claims.


Secondly when I used "To Kill A Mockingbird" just to give my post merit and to quote a novel i used it as an example which if you go back put it in context and read it makes perfect sense and is the perfect example.
I did read that part, but there is really nothing that I could have said in regards to the book or the example you used from it. That's why I didn't quote it.


Thirdly I posted a lot more of Clouds character development than you posted
I haven't really posted anything about Cloud's character development in such a long time, maybe never.


and I didn't post all the others becuase I didn't think you guys wanted to read a novel unless you do.
No, you didn't post others because you don't have anything else to come up with, unless you want to prove me wrong for once. I've made quite a few very long posts that take a while to read. So don't try that excuse just because you really don't have anything else. Seriously, if you have a 'novel' to post about all the characters' development throughout the game, be my guest. I'll gladly read it, and decide if there is any merit in it or not.


And Cloud is very emotional when Aeris dies, either you forget the scene and characters lines or you don't put any emotion or voice into what the characters say and just read the words and if you do that then yes there is no emotion in that scene.
There is very little emotion in the scene. He picks up her dead body, says a few words, then dumps her to who knows where?


And if he had no emotion like you say then in the nibleheim scene instead of killing spehiroth he would just say "oh well...I don't care" and walk away.
Like I said before, that wasn't emotion that he was using. That is pure instincts.


And when you say the ending wasn't a cliffhanger well then I just have to ask ARE YOU ON DRUGS?!?! the ending is a major cliffhanger or do you just not understand what you watch and just go oooh pretty colors.
No drugs.

The ending has no cliff-hanging to it, period. What makes it filled with so much suspense that has it's players awing over what is going to happen next, or what really happened? There is nothing. Seriously, I can't say this enough. The entire ending is basically watching Red XIII and two cats exercise, and then stop for a breather when they see a bunch of grass.


And if Cloud is capable of having as much MP as Aeris in the begining then why does Cloud at most likely lvl 8 when you find Aeris have only abot 68 MP while Aeris who is at lvl 5 have 128 MP??
Learn how to structure your sentences, please.

I said he is 'capable', not 'going' to have the same amount. And it's pretty simple actually; load Cloud with every materia up to that point, and don't let Aeris have a single one.

Ok witht he materia thing I meant the amount of MP they have when used normally you are saying im wrong in a certain situation that would be done just to prove the point I said wrong becuase that strategy is a really bad strategy since aeris is the character who is most designed to use magic in FF7.

What you just said about why the ending is not a cliffhanger are all the reasons it is a cliffhanger and all you did was define a cliffhanger.

Now with the emotions, instincts are based off of emotions enough said.

Now with taking things out of context you make my statements make no sense when in context they make perfect sense. Those things that were not worth mentioning are what make my statements make sense and you just leave them out so it will strengthen your argument that I make no sense.

Man.....it's just a frikken game guys.........just play the game over today and find out what it is. I replayed the game like (sarcasm, I know one of you smartasses is going to qoute this part)50 times and It came to me...............ITS JUST A GAME.....who gives a rats ass about emotion......especially...in a game...you guys make it seem like this game is godly or something..it's good, maybe the best, but it's just a game....And yet I hear people making fun of each other..over a game..... The game was made for peoples enjoyment.......

So what? Holding down x is not that hard. The analogue controllers were not released at that time, so you couldnt have the movement based around that. In racing games you have to hold down X to move fast.

Racing games also require you to keep your speed under control. Too fast or too slow makes you lose the race. In an RPG, you will want to run the vast majority of the time and making you hold down an extra button to do so is just plain silly.


Some areas did have strange camera angles. But you find that in any game, even in Final Fantasy VIII, when you go into space on disc 3, which i am sure you like more than FF7.

Actually, I don't like FFVIII either. But that's beside the point. That game's quality is not the topic of debate.


Yes there was. If you only played the PC version it may be different, I dont know. But in the materia menu you can go Arrange and select Remove All, Transfer and Arrange to do all three things you listed above.

The PC version was the one I played start to finish. I played the original PlayStation version first, which also lacked those features. Perhaps the version of the game you have had some extra features added.


Not necessarily, there would be no point giving Barret or Cid the best magic at the beginning of the game because Aeris is a lot better at magic than the rest of the characters. Each character was either physical, magical or a mixture of both. But at the end of the game when you train them up enough, then yes, all characters are virtually the same and it is a matter of personal preference. But isnt that the same in all FF's?

No, it isn't the same in all of them. Take IX, for example. Every character had their own distinct uses, making party selection far more important than it ever was in FFVII. Most of the earlier FFs were the same way.


I'm sure Prak that this will continue for much longer as it always has (:-P althought you said yourself that I was one of the few people who had a convincing argument about FF7 :-)).

Actually, I didn't say you were convincing, just more reasonable than most. ;)

this thread should be titled why ff7 was a good game i still like the characters and story but im not going to paly that again ever unless i get really bored. im looking foward to advent children thoguh.

You just said the cliffhanger! we don't know if the human race survived, we dont know what happened next, and it didnt explain what happened.

I don't believe I said that. I said that I knew everything would be fine when the music changed. No cliffhanger.

What is the diffrence from any other FF game thay all have the same gide lines.Ya thay have cool graphics but whats the point in doing the same thing in every game.Ya its a cool series in all but I think we should able to do more.We should be able to run around and fight who we want.To run from battles ect.I think Squaresoft meeds to make new FF games.The only good game is FF1. That is the First and only good FF game.

What is the best FF game.

Ok what is the best game you have ever played?My favorate FF game is FFI.

I agree with you about FFI, but what's that doing in this thread?

I thought FFVII gave you quiet enough freedom...but then I am not in my argumenting mood so I will get back to you...

You just said the cliffhanger! we don't know if the human race survived, we dont know what happened next, and it didnt explain what happened.

well thats why there is ff7 advent children. enough said

well thats why there is ff7 advent children. enough said

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Square had making AC in mind when they ended FFVII. Someone please follow up on this because I'm not quite sure.

I also liked rasing the Chocobos and the Materia system and the characters kicked ass especially Cloud,Sephiroth,Vincent,and Cid

Originally they never intended to have Advent Children after FFVII.

One of the main reasons it was a cliffhanger is becuase in the Japanese culture cliffhangers are a normal thing in stories and people love them.

We're arguing that it wasn't a cliffhanger. You just really stated that it is more acceptable in Japan than in the U.S. to have cliffhangers. That doesn't prove that FFVII has one.

but if you look at it it obviously was a cliffhanger. You guys are now saying this cuz ur trying to take away one of our good arguments.

But, it wasn't a cliffhanger in any way.

Yeah, you haven't even made an effort to prove it was a cliffhanger.

That's because it's impossible to prove. A cliffhanger is meant to be resolved, after all, and there was no plan to make any sort of sequel at the time.

well when you make comments like what you did with no supporting facts ur gonna get eaten alive and it makes those of us that do give good arguments with supporting facts look bad.
its ppl like u that end up at the mental hospital....just whanted u to know that,so shut the hell up

its ppl like u that end up at the mental hospital....just whanted u to know that,so shut the hell up

That rival's Trekkies's "Smokey is on drugs" argument for most irrelevant statement in this thread. People have the right to make arguments whether they're any good at it or not.

yeah i know..and im standing up for myself.

You didn't say a single thing to support yourself. It was all bashing Trekkie. Leave that to the people who use facts.

what the hell is ur stinking problem?? what facts are u talking about,dipshit`?

There's no need to get angry. I'm just telling you that this is a debate thread, and if you want to post in it, you should actually debate. In a debate, you express your opinions on something and use facts to support it. Insulting people is no part of that, unless the debate is about a person.

Sprry for breaking into this interresting argument, but, er, what excactly is a cliffhanger?

Sprry for breaking into this interresting argument, but, er, what excactly is a cliffhanger?
A cliffhanger can be briefly described as this:

An event or conclusion that leads the viewer filled with suspense or anticipation as to what is going to happen next.

Game released early causes the supposed cliffhanger. Hopefully AC can resolve it.

Ah, now everything makes more sense. Thanks.

Game released early causes the supposed cliffhanger. Hopefully AC can resolve it.

I was unaware the game was released early. Not that I doubt you or anything, but how do you know that that was what caused it?

But they weren't planning to even make Advent Children! How the fuck is an early release mean that the game will have a cliffhanger??

I think FF7 is the best even know I think the graphis could use some.Its still my favorite game.My favorite charcter is Red19.

I think FF7 is the best even know I think the graphis could use some.Its still my favorite game.My favorite charcter is Red19.

I don't know which part of that to correct first. I'll just pick one randomly. First off, the graphics were the only thing that Rabid Monkey said were superior about FFVII to the older games. It's RedXIII, not RedXIX. It's my favorite game too, and you're welcome to think that it's the best, but please support your opinions with facts in a debate thread.

What do you think makes a game good?

Good character development? FF 7 did that well with a FEW of the characters. A few. Yuffie was very brief and I don't even want to say anything about Cait Sith. Cid was brief and his relationship to Shinra is unclear. This game was like 40 hours long, and I am sure they could have made some better character development.

Sound: No doubt Final Fantasy 7 doesn't miss here. It wasn't that bad. The music was appropriate for the scenes. Nicely done.

CG Cinematics: They were the best and first of its time. Are you guys on drugs? All of you who are saying it needs a graphics boost. DO you know how other games that came out just before this looked?! Don't compare FF7 to something that came after it because obviously people would try to make the next thigns better.

Storyline: What can I say? Decent. Long, and complicated. Hard to understand even after you played through the game multiple times.

Battle System: Sexy. I still think the materia system is the best one ever. So versatile. Limit breaks. OMFG. GREATNESS. SO sexy

All in all FF7 was a good/great game. Somewhere in the middle. These are all my points. If anyone wants to add anything or show me if I am wrong or show me anything to prove me worng just lemme know. I don't think its the BEST game, but it's good enough.

Mommy, I'm scared. There's an intelligent FFVII fan in the thread. He wasn't 100% right about everything, but that's the closest thing to an actual argument I've seen in a while in favor of FFVII.

Which means it naturally attracts my attention.


What do you think makes a game good?

Good character development? FF 7 did that well with a FEW of the characters. A few. Yuffie was very brief and I don't even want to say anything about Cait Sith. Cid was brief and his relationship to Shinra is unclear. This game was like 40 hours long, and I am sure they could have made some better character development.

I've said most of that before. However, you say you don't want to mention Cait Sith, but that makes no sense in the context of your statement because he was easily one of the most developed characters.


Sound: No doubt Final Fantasy 7 doesn't miss here. It wasn't that bad. The music was appropriate for the scenes. Nicely done.

No argument. Music was good, although not spectacular.


CG Cinematics: They were the best and first of its time. Are you guys on drugs? All of you who are saying it needs a graphics boost. DO you know how other games that came out just before this looked?! Don't compare FF7 to something that came after it because obviously people would try to make the next thigns better.

Here's where you're dead wrong. Blood Omen was released before FFVII and had superior CG scenes, particularly when you compare scenes featuring the characters of the two games. Sadly, the vastly superior game has been cast down into a small circle of fandom, doomed to play second fiddle to an unworthy rival.


Storyline: What can I say? Decent. Long, and complicated. Hard to understand even after you played through the game multiple times.

Decent? Hardly. The innumerable plot holes and simplicity of its progression hold FFVII's story back into the realm of mediocrity, with no hope of escape.

Long? Nuh uh. The actual story path was relatively short. Getting from point A to point B consumed most of the time you spent playing the game.

Complicated? Hardly. The only thing that could make it seem complicated was the tragic lack of clarity that most of the game suffered from.

Hard to understand? Of course certain aspects are, those being the ones that weren't finished. Hardcore fans try to cover up that simple and obvious fact with the flawed excuse that it leaves room for interpretation, but that doesn't fly with anyone else.


Battle System: Sexy. I still think the materia system is the best one ever. So versatile. Limit breaks. OMFG. GREATNESS. SO sexy

I regard it as an atrocity. The materia system makes most of your characters useless by allowing each of them to perform any possible task. There's no need to use all of them because you can change your preferred party's abilities to suit any situation.

Limit breaks were nothing new and its immediate predecessor and successor did it better, IMO. Whereas they occurred pretty randomly in VII, they came up at useful times in VI and VIII.

Everything bout it rocks exept the stupid moogle mini-game in the gold saucer Grrrrrr

mckirkn

What an intelligent thing to say right after I once again shoved razor wire up the game's metaphorical ass. :rolleyes:

Well, I stand corrected. Prak just showed me why I was wrong. In all of my aspects of thinking about the game. I think I will go meditate and reconsider my views about FF7 now....

Well, I stand corrected. Prak just showed me why I was wrong. In all of my aspects of thinking about the game. I think I will go meditate and reconsider my views about FF7 now....

?!?!?! An OPEN MINDED FFVII fan? *heart attack*

See that, FFVII fanboys? That is solid proof against your stupid "thats just you're opinion!!!!11111" argument.

This is fucking ridiculous...its sad when these things jus become bashing fests, where everyone jus flames each other...the people who dont like the game...cool...the people who like the game...also cool. Why the hell is everyone jus gettin pissed at everyone else for their opinions...stop forcing your views down everyones throats and move on...

I only flamed those who behaved badly.

i dont really know why u even care about all that.....u comment every body on this damn thread..whats the point. u are the one that must act like "i know it all"guy all the time

What do you mean by that? I like FFVII, but having people enter in and cuss people out for posting their opinions in a debate thread is ridiculous. Where did I assume an air of knowing everything?

I only flamed those who behaved badly.
Yeah, but thats jus as bad as them doing it. You dont have to stoop down to their level. Not trying to be an ass or anything :)

Yeah, but thats jus as bad as them doing it. You dont have to stoop down to their level. Not trying to be an ass or anything :)

You're right. I did step over the line now that I think about it. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

stop forcing your views down everyones throats and move on...

When did that happen? (If it was way long back I apologize I wasn't here for the first 19 pages) lol :)

see...this is way better now.... =D

You're right. I did step over the line now that I think about it. I apologize if I have offended anyone.
no harm done:)

I like the Materia System because it was easy

not only easy, but made endless combinations for any situation. Its the best of two worlds, if you like it where each person has their own jobs, then put only "black magic" on certain people, and "white magic" on certain people, and "blue magic" on certain people....well, you get my point. And if you dont like that aspect of the game, then use yur own combos. Its fun goin on the web and lookin at different combos you can use to create any effect you can possibly imagine.

Too easy, if you ask me. What's the point of playing a game you can breeze through without any real challenge? It's like watching a really long B movie.

And even if you can give characters specific roles, that doesn't change the fact that most of them are rendered useless, especially when you've used materia to increase a character's stats. Other characters don't get the same opportunity for advancement because of the auto-leveling. Thus, they wind up being useless compared to the characters you've spent time on, with no possible way of making them equal.

when you've used materia to increase a character's stats. Other characters don't get the same opportunity for advancement because of the auto-leveling. Thus, they wind up being useless compared to the characters you've spent time on, with no possible way of making them equal.

WHAT?!?...how are the rendered useless?

and as the game being too easy...yes..WE KNOW...you have been using that excuse since you first started sayin FF7 sucks...OK...we get the picture...and of course its easy if you jus pick up the game, go straight through and beat it. The difficulty comes from doing all the extra stuff...
-Emerald WEAPON
-Ruby WEAPON
-obtaining all limit break manuals
-obtaining all ultimate weapons
-getting every character up to lvl 99..with all stats at 255
-mastering every materia....3 TIMES!!!
-obtaining 5000 pts at speed square
-getting gold chocobos
-learning the best materia combos
doing all of this is quite the challenge and takes up at least 200 -250 hrs of gameplay...specially since everyone seems to be against strategy guides...(i am definitely against strat guides first time through games)...but i doubt rabid monkey got all of these things accomplished without a strat guide or walkthrough of some sort his first time through...thats BS. But this is maybe how square got a hold of a larger audience....they made the game easy to pick up and beat...but for all those hardcore RPGers...they put in all kinds of extra stuff to come up with a challenge....and to me...it looked like it worked

WHAT?!?...how are the rendered useless?

and as the game being too easy...yes..WE KNOW...you have been using that excuse since you first started sayin FF7 sucks...OK...we get the picture...and of course its easy if you jus pick up the game, go straight through and beat it. The difficulty comes from doing all the extra stuff...
-Emerald WEAPON
-Ruby WEAPON
-obtaining all limit break manuals
-obtaining all ultimate weapons
-getting every character up to lvl 99..with all stats at 255
-mastering every materia....3 TIMES!!!
-obtaining 5000 pts at speed square
-getting gold chocobos
-learning the best materia combos

Either you're retarded or the game was just that easy, but the side quests were easy as hell too. That stuff just takes a long time, but it's still piss easy.

with or without a strategy guide dick...cuz i seriously doubt you have ever done all of that without a strat guide

Here's a thought: Make the main path challenging instead of putting everything that might scratch you in a side quest. And anyway, a lot of the stuff you said makes the game challenging really just consumes an excessive lot of time. Getting a gold chocobo doesn't take skill, just a heaping lot of patience. Same with levelling to 99...and mastering materia multiple times...and getting points at speed square. All it shows is that you're a completely obsessive dork who doesn't know when to move on to a new game.

its challenging yourself to have the paitience for it...but yea...yur right...but if you dont do some of the stuff that takes a long time...then it wont be easy beating the two hardest creatures in the game. But the speed square is hard...it has nothing to do with spending excessive amts of time on the game....it takes skill...and a lot of it at that. But yes..i am a dork...who cares...does it hurt you that im a goob that is addicted to a great game? I dont see how this is relevent at all. I dont see why you flame everyone that doesnt agree with you...its like yur on PMS also...but everyday. I use to know someone like you....everyone hated him at the school...and now he addicted to MJ and shrooms....i can only hope your life sinks this low, and you become one of the lowest pits in our society...

with or without a strategy guide dick...cuz i seriously doubt you have ever done all of that without a strat guide
Me? Use a strategy guide? That's funny, I never use em. I'm hardcore, bitch. But seriously? It wasn't that hard, it just took a long time talking to people and figuring out what to do, like talking to the chocobo guy near Bone Village. Plus by the time I had to fight the American weapons I just fought them a couple times and rounded up some good materia and beat them both pretty easily.

meh...i guess so...i still dont believe rabid monkey sayin he beat the game without a strategy guide...and only missed an elixer and a potion or somptin...i find this very hard to believe....dick...lol...j/k...but seriously....dick

and of course its easy if you jus pick up the game, go straight through and beat it. The difficulty comes from doing all the extra stuff...
-Emerald WEAPON
-Ruby WEAPON
-obtaining all limit break manuals
-obtaining all ultimate weapons
-getting every character up to lvl 99..with all stats at 255
-mastering every materia....3 TIMES!!!
-obtaining 5000 pts at speed square
-getting gold chocobos
-learning the best materia combos

-I beat Emerald Weapon at level 55. I beat Ruby weapon at level 60 from leveling up from beating Emerald Weapon.

-I obtained all ultimat weapons in a matter of 7 hours. I found most of them as I played through the damn game. The only time consuming thing was playing the piano in Tifa's house to get her Final Limit break. That took a while. Challenging? No, I don't think so. Just annoying as hell.

-Getting gold chocobos. I mixed and matched and took me a week. Difficult? No just annoying.

-Mastering every materia three times? I did that at the North Crater with the magic pots. Difficult? No just annoying.

-Getting every character up to level 99? Magic Pots. Got nothin. I did it in 4 days. Difficult? No i don't think so.

-Obtaining 5000 points at the Speed square? Fine. This was the ONLY challenging thing in the game.

I never use a strategy guide and I can't even afford it. In an RPG nothing is hidden from you if you are smart... I don't know why you are calling people dicks. Is it because they managed to all this without a strategy guide and you couldn't? Don't waste my time with FF 7 being hard because the only way it's hard is if you play with the Buster Sword equipped throughout the whole game.

meh...i guess so...i still dont believe rabid monkey sayin he beat the game without a strategy guide...and only missed an elixer and a potion or somptin...i find this very hard to believe....dick...lol...j/k...but seriously....dick
Why? You should be able to find everything in a game without a strategy guide! That's the way games are meant to be played!

I used a strategy guide only because of my neurotic fear of not getting all of the unnecessary items that my brother and I deemed "collectibles." And anyway, I easily beat FFIV without a strategy guide of any kind, and it was much, much harder. And FFI was infinitely harder than that, and I beat it without a strategy guide. If you guys seriously think FFVII is a hard game, you should play Battletoads.

Or Frogger.

for one thing..of course its fucking easy to jus beat the game...you seriously arent reading my posts if that is what you think i said....argh

We didn't even have to read your posts (although I'm sure we all did out of morbid curiosity) because you're saying exactly the same things we've been squashing for 27 (49 if you count the other thread also) pages. Either bring something new to the table, present old material in a new and interesting way, or shut up. As it stands, the only thing we've seen from you is fanboy ranting.

meh..all youve been sayin bad about it was also discussed in the last 50 pages...all it sounds like is fanboy ranting hating....so why the hell dont you shut yur mouth

I don't believe posting in this forum requires opening your mouth.

It sorta does. When I read garbage like unseen's posts, I can't help but open my mouth to laugh. Seriously, he does absolutely nothing but whine about us, call us names, and try to come up with idiotic justifications for his lack of substance.

for one thing..of course its fucking easy to jus beat the game...you seriously arent reading my posts if that is what you think i said....argh

OMFG MAN. WHAT THE *(#&$( HELL. Did you EVEN READ my post before you posted that shit?! Look back. Read my post is is RIGHT there.

meh..all youve been sayin bad about it was also discussed in the last 50 pages...all it sounds like is fanboy ranting hating....so why the hell dont you shut yur mouth
No, ranting is what you fanboys keep doing. We aren't ranting, because we are actually supporting our claims with factual evidence. Now if we were just saying that FFVII sucks or the characters are one-dimensioal without proof, then that would be considered ranting.

Ranting is nothing more than saying the same things over and over again, and then running away scared when you are backed into a corner and found guilty of having no evidence on you. So in essence, you just got copped out.

It sorta does. When I read garbage like unseen's posts, I can't help but open my mouth to laugh. Seriously, he does absolutely nothing but whine about us, call us names, and try to come up with idiotic justifications for his lack of substance.
me call you names?..for one thing...me sayin shut yur mouth isnt callin anyone a name...and as for you guys...ive been called probably 15-30 names since i joined a week ago...i find this actually a great acomplishment...so why dont you get yur story straight....for once

God people why cant we each accept each others views and quit trying to bash people into hating/loving something all I have been trying got so is show you that your reasons for hating the game can be used as a reason for loving a game. Why cant you guys just sit back and say "ok he likes the game for these reasons, thats his opinion I personally dont have to agree with him but i accept the fact that he likes the game for those reasons." just quit taking peoples reasons for liking/disliking something and try to make them look stupid and then try to bash your ideas into their heads. its getting annoying both these threads should be closed.

because people like prak like to do nothing but bitch bitch bitch...so much that he go to forums of things ee doesnt like jus to tell everyone there that it sucks...and spend their whole day doing this....its like my going to a baseball forum, spending all day saying....BASEBALL sucks...do you know what...if you dont like it prak...get the hell out...that simple....actually....so simple...i might even understand....

God people why cant we each accept each others views and quit trying to bash people into hating/loving something all I have been trying got so is show you that your reasons for hating the game can be used as a reason for loving a game. Why cant you guys just sit back and say "ok he likes the game for these reasons, thats his opinion I personally dont have to agree with him but i accept the fact that he likes the game for those reasons." just quit taking peoples reasons for liking/disliking something and try to make them look stupid and then try to bash your ideas into their heads. its getting annoying both these threads should be closed.

That's not what anyone's trying to do. This thread's whole purpose of existence is as a debate. What you're supposed to do in this thread is use factual evidence to support whether or not it is a good game, NOT explain why you like it, because weirdos like me like games for reasons other than those that make it good. And it ISN'T just a matter of opinion, as Dragoncurry and I have proven about 7,987 times. The reason why Prak is bashing people is because of the fact that they don't use any factual evidence to support their claims. He's not telling anyone not to like the game; he's just saying not to post your opinion with no factual evidence to support it in this thread. And as Rabid Monkey said in the other thread, if you want it to be closed, then stop posting and bringing it back to the top.

As for you, Unseen, I don't know why you crave so much attention. I don't know if you're a neglected child or you're just bored, but you don't have to behave like that online.

For everyone else, don't let what anyone says in here get you angry. Just keep calm and support your points with fact, and then people who insult others are the ones who look stupid.

As for you, Unseen, I don't know why you crave so much attention. I don't know if you're a neglected child or you're just bored, but you don't have to behave like that online.

oh no, i wasnt neglected as a child...but i am bored...i happen to have early release from school...and i dont work til about 3:00...

he's just saying not to post your opinion with no factual evidence to support it
how do i act online??? prak keeps calling everyone fuckers and the such, and hijacking threads saying everyone is stupid on this ff7 topic...im gonna have to ask to see some "factual evidence" to support your claim, or for you to not state your opinion...and saying that we havent shown "any" factual evidence is stupid...i would have to say out of 100 pages of two threads...im sure 1 person has made some...ill go check after i post this...but even 1 fact would show that we have shown some...

i would have to say out of 100 pages of two threads...im sure 1 person has made some...ill go check after i post this...but even 1 fact would show that we have shown some...
In the little time I have left, I have only one thing to say.

haha

oh...im sure i will...it turns out im jus too lazy to have gotten to reading all of those pages already...but ill get to it :D

oh...im sure i will...it turns out im jus too lazy to have gotten to reading all of those pages already...but ill get to it :D

You'll find some, yes. I, myself, posted evidence to support FFVII. Almost immediately afterward, the thread was flooded with fanboys saying "The game was perfect just because it was." My main point to you was that this is a debate thread, and all you're doing is taunting people. I'm not justifying their giving in to your taunts, but it's really not necessary. Let the people who want to debate debate.

This is hilarious. And I thought this thread was getting boring. Silly me.

This is hilarious. And I thought this thread was getting boring. Silly me.

Yeah, you shouldn't drink anything while you're reading this thread.

Unseen. Please go up. And read my post. Please. Then continue commenting. It is the first post on this page. Go now. Just go.

ok...so...what is your point again...i might of missed it...but since you asked me to...ill keep commenting.... comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment...happy?

Unseen, that was the most hilarious post I've ever read in my life. *bitter sarcasm*

i too thought it was funny...hmm...we are so much alike!

And you call me ignorant?! Why the hell did you make that point if you aren't willing to look at other aspects?!

i dunno...im bored i guess...whats yur excuse?

For what?! I listened to everything you had to say. I don't need a damn excuse cause I did nothing wrong!

except for being ignorant....you ignorant ignoramus you!

because people like prak like to do nothing but bitch bitch bitch...so much that he go to forums of things ee doesnt like jus to tell everyone there that it sucks...and spend their whole day doing this....


oh no, i wasnt neglected as a child...but i am bored...i happen to have early release from school...and i dont work til about 3:00...

That's pretty ironic, I think.

me being bored all day doesnt signify that i spend my day here bitching...so yur pt?...cuz i dont see one

That you spend your free time complaining, about people complaining, during their free time. I thought THAT point was pretty obvious, too.

Forgive me if you don't like puns, but...

Is this a restaurant, Unseen? 'Cause you just got served!!!

LMAO FF1 such a corny line. LMAO.

so...your sayin i spend all day everyday complaining...(which was only one post by the way) about people that actually do complain and bitch everyday? I still dont see a point here...you have no argument about one post against me...i jus joined these forums to have a good time talkin to people about ff7, which i do. I have a great time doing the quizzes and such...but i also get a side of ass...which happens to be a recipe comprising of you, prak, dragoncurry, and smokey...with a dash of jerks (to remain nameless) to spice things up

I am an ass?! When the hell did I say anything to you without backing up my points?

Just cause someone proves you are wrong (quite frequently)doesnt mean they are an ass. You are just really confused man. Maybe you should think before you type.

I think what Rabid Monkey was saying is that you spend your time in this thread writing things without any basis and then going on random rants because you are 'bored', and then you say that other people bitch when they are just trying to stop you from doing ritarded things such as....

ok...so...what is your point again...i might of missed it...but since you asked me to...ill keep commenting.... comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment...happy?

Yeah. This was your response when I tried to show you the FF difficulty argument you raised may have been flawed. I wasn't even mean to your ass.

And then this

how do i act online??? prak keeps calling everyone fuckers and the such, and hijacking threads saying everyone is stupid on this ff7 topic...im gonna have to ask to see some "factual evidence" to support your claim, or for you to not state your opinion...and saying that we havent shown "any" factual evidence is stupid...i would have to say out of 100 pages of two threads...im sure 1 person has made some...ill go check after i post this...but even 1 fact would show that we have shown some...

Fine. Prak does call people fuckers. Prak also posted this:

Thread 17681

Second post on the page. Yes unseen. That is factual evidence. He compared it to games outside the market at the same time and covered most of the topics right there.

So fine, Prak does call people fuckers. He also posts evidence to support his points and doesn't waste time with a post like this ...


oh...im sure i will...it turns out im jus too lazy to have gotten to reading all of those pages already...but ill get to it

Which is why you don't see any factual evidence. You didn't read it. So you say that we are asses when you yourself post arguments without factual basis, or any counter to previous arguments because YOU didn't read it.

And you call us asses because we told you to reconsider your views. If you don't want to? Fine. But why you continue commenting on how bitchy everyone else is when you know you made those comments from you not knowing the previous posts (yes that means ignorant) is beyond me. SO before you call people asses maybe you should think and see exactly WHY you are calling them that before someone comes along and tells you that you are wrong. ..Again.

lol...someone doesnt like to be called an ass...and what point is it to try to back up any of my views....i started out trying...but started wondering why i should try to get other people to think like i do. I dont care how the fuck you think...im not gonna try to woo you over. I like the game...and so what if it sucks big dick. I LIKE IT! So you have proven to 5 people that the game sucks dick. Good for you guys. You have spent the last couple months doin it. But there is still about another 2 million people that you better hurry up and try to win over. Spend more of your time in forums about stuff you dont like. If thats how you want to spend your lives...go ahead...im gonna go talk to normal people now about ff7 in a calm atmosphere...and by the way..your still an ass...who cares...jeez...you take things to seriously...if you think im such an ignorant dumbass...why do you seem to care what i think....i think someone likes me tee hee he...

I don't think you are an ignorant dumbass. I just think that fine you like it. I actually kinda like the game too. (Not my fave..) I just don't like how post things like "Oh its the greatest game. Period" Then it isn't a debate. And I care what you think because this is a forum and I can't ignore the points you raise.

ok..fine...i have decided that i will state my points, with backing them up with facts and reasoning. Im only gonna do one part of the game at a time...then let people respond, since its too hard to do the whole game at once...and people complaining about this and that. So 'ere goes nottin!

PART I
GRAPHICS

note: if any information reguarding Blood Omen is not true...correct me. I have not personally played this game before, but have read stuff on it for writing this argument.


Blood Omen was released before FFVII and had superior CG scenes, particularly when you compare scenes featuring the characters of the two games. Sadly, the vastly superior game has been cast down into a small circle of fandom, doomed to play second fiddle to an unworthy rival.

Even if the graphics are second to blood omen..which they are not (in my opinion), that doesnt make it a horrible game. Being in second place in graphics is actually great. But you always talk about stating your opinion, and backing it up with fact? Well, i dont see any facts to back your opinion up. I want to see screen shots of both games to see which one is really better. Lucky for everyone, i have taken the liberty of doing this.

The following pictures are taken of the CGs which is what prak was talkin about. The first one is of Sephiroth from Final Fantasy 7, and the second is from Blood Omen





This is the only screenshot of blood omen CG that i could find. It does seem to be really good no doubt. A strong contender with FF7. I really dont know which one is better. I do like ff7's because you get more overall detail with ff7's CGs such as with the hair. On Blood Omen's CG...it looks like a blob of something on his head instead of his hair and the overall look of him looks like plastic as if he was a ken doll (a ken doll of death at that)...and as with sephy, you can see individual strands, and there seems to be a bit more texture to it. But BO's looks more realistic instead of the anime style that final fantasy has. Although thats not really a problem with lack of graphics, jus the creators personal preference on displaying his characters. I would rate this category a tie. Now with the battles of the games.

In final fantasy 7, the battles are awesome to say the least graphic wise. The camera is always moving in a fully polygonal 3d world. When one character makes an attack...the camera whips around...zooms in on them, and shows the consequence of the attack. And the characters look great!And the summons are a whole nother thing by themselves. Truly amazing for not being CG. As for BO...it looks to me as if it is a pseudo 3d game. It has 3d looking characters on a 2d background. All they have are "frames" of animation where they jus have different 2d pics, and display them at different times to make the character have animation...i do not see at all how this even compares to final fantasy 7...Have a look...







There seems to be no contest with these pics.


I believe this is the only two modes for BO...CG and game mode. But final fantasy has 4. world map, battle, CG, and in town/dungeon...so ill pile the rest of ff's pics here. The in town/dungeons are first of its kind. They have a pre-rendered cg backgrounds, with fully polygonal characters moving all about them. The character gets realistically smaller the farther away from the camera he is. Top knotch for its time. And the world map...you are now presented with a fully 3-D polygon world that you are free to roam in. The world is wonderfully presented...allowing you to adjust the camera angles and zoom in or out to your own personal preferences. And they are just beautiful. I will admit that the characters in both world map and in town modes are a bit blocky, but they are higher end in the graphic spectrum cuz they are fully 3d, and you can rotate around them in real time, which as of BO, this is not true.





No doubt, CGs and the battles were what really blows the competition away. But the other stuff is first of its kind, and was the stepping stone that got our graphics to where they are today.

What i hate more than anything is everyone sayin "oh my god...ohh...final fantasy VIII and IX have better graphics...ooo...sooo...final fantasy VII sucks..."..i must of read this 3-4 times on the first page of the other thread....WELL NO SHIT SHERLOCK....someone hand these people an award for their observation....of course the later final fantasies are gonna have better graphics...i would hope so, or no ones gonna buy the new ones...final fantasy VII had better graphics than Final fantasy VI...so...final fantasy VI sucks...well..mystery solved there...

Prak jus talks about how the CGs are better...which i say they are about the same...when the CGs are not near the most important factor in the game. In a game that could last on average of 45 hrs...only 1 hr of it was CG...so you really had no argument here at all prak. If you would have backen yurself up like all you FF7 haters out there talk about...everyone cud have seen that BO is second to a damn worthy rival graphics wise.

In reviewing Blood Omen, GameMonkeys gave the following comment on the graphics...

Graphics: 2 out of 5 => The graphics in this game are not at all impressive even for the time at which it was created.

Conclusion: I believe that FF7 beat BO on all levels except for CG's which are a tie. Final Fantasy VII has also been given extremely high scores on graphics from just about every reviewer i have looked at. I would have to say that Final Fantasy VII was in the top 2-3 percentile graphics wise...So final fantasy's graphics are a winner in making this game a "GREAT" game (for its time of course!) :D

Why the hell didn't you do this 3 pages ago?! Well, damn. That's pretty good.

thx...im doing it cuz im all fucking hyped up now lol...ARGH!

...crap..i want to delete this post but it wont let me, so this message is a filler...so any ways...on with the thread...

You've taken my comments on Blood Omen's CG scenes vs FFVII's CG scenes out of context. I truly think BO is the better game, but I have not tried to make a complete case for that because the debate isn't about whether there was anything better. But incidentally, that review you mentioned was a single negative in a sea of glowing praise.

What I said was in response to Dragoncurry stating that FFVII's cg scenes were the "first and best of its time." They were not the first cg cutscenes of that type, as proven by the fact that BO had them. As for which is better, the BO scenes had a larger color pallette (particularly noticable in backgrounds), better shading and lighting effects, and a higher framerate. Those technical merits are what I say makes BO's cg scenes superior.

But incidentally, that review you mentioned was a single negative in a sea of glowing praise.

This is not true. I came to numerous sites saying that the graphics were only "mediocre"...if i can come across these again..ill post them.


As for which is better, the BO scenes had a larger color pallette (particularly noticable in backgrounds), better shading and lighting effects, and a higher framerate. Those technical merits are what I say makes BO's cg scenes superior.
Well, for the higher color pallette, this could be true, but there is nothing real noticable to say ff's aren't as good. Better shading and lighting? The reason you think that BO's had better shading is because it takes place in a dark twisted gothic setting, so they had the opportunity to use it more, which in turn you remember it more. I can think of one or two scenes where they showed off really notable shading that probably surpasses BO's. As for lighting, i believe that ff7 had better lighting all around. Now, framerate...the reason BOs is better is because it is of lesser quality than that of ff7's. And again...it really isnt noticable. Im sure everybody that plays FF7 is goin


...."argh...damn square for making the framerate of these beautifuly done CGs jus a tiny bit lower than some other less quality games that i really cant even notice....i...JUS CANT GO ON PLAYING...*throws ff7 out the window"....
I am currently in the process of downloading BO, and ill get my web server back up and running, and ill give everyone a link where two CGs will be compared side by side, and everyone can see for thereselves which one is better.

This is not true. I came to numerous sites saying that the graphics were only "mediocre"...if i can come across these again..ill post them.

The graphics for the game were quite well in keeping with the accepted standards of the time and have, in fact, aged much better than FFVII's graphics. Any such reviews are probably biased in some way or were written more recently by people who think that tetris is a bad game because its graphics are too simple.


Well, for the higher color pallette, this could be true, but there is nothing real noticable to say ff's aren't as good.

And you know this from a screenshot or two?


Better shading and lighting? The reason you think that BO's had better shading is because it takes place in a dark twisted gothic setting, so they had the opportunity to use it more, which in turn you remember it more. I can think of one or two scenes where they showed off really notable shading that probably surpasses BO's.

You know this after only seeing screenshots of the BO FMVs?


As for lighting, i believe that ff7 had better lighting all around.

You believe? Based on what? I'll answer for you. Pure fanboyism.


Now, framerate...the reason BOs is better is because it is of lesser quality than that of ff7's.

You are a true bullshit artist, you know that?


I am currently in the process of downloading BO, and ill get my web server back up and running, and ill give everyone a link where two CGs will be compared side by side, and everyone can see for thereselves which one is better.

Good idea. Just be sure to include yourself in that everyone you mentioned.

oh we will see...you just cant stand to be proven wrong...well get prepared for it cuz its gonna happen...and yes, i looked at a lot more screen shots today, and believe it or not...there jus happens to be shadows in them...and believe it or not, there happens to be colors in the screenshots too....BTW...ETA for download is about 8 hrs...so ill get it running by monday if not tomorrow

Screenshots can't prove shit. I just played through BO again and it is definitely better in terms of pretty much everything, and I am not in any way a BO fanboy, but I did enjoy the game alot.

hmmm...i dont think so...i have played BO lots of times...and its not better in terms of EVERYTHING....the CGs are amazing, the story is great...gameplay really cool...but the general graphics in the game are weak compared to final fantasy 7...and im no ff7 fanboy

Yeah, its pretty amazing that screenshots cant tell you that ff7 has better in-game graphics when compared to BO's in-game graphics as here follows





wow..your right...you really cant tell which one is better...wow...i think...yes...yes i see it now...i think...BO's 2d sprite graphics are better...holy crap...not! I think that you need to go lie down and re-think your life over chorns...and stop posting idiotic ideas that are nowhere close to being true....you dont have to be a fanboy of BO to think its better..jus a guy with no life but to use everylast bit of energy hating ff7...

The FF7 screenshot you just provided is splochy, blurry and all round cheap-looking. The BO one is much clearer...

Oh wait let me be a smart arse like the rest of you...

NYYYYARGH!, see, i was rrrright. The graphics are much better in BO

-Yes, they are nearly as good as the original 23 star trek episodes
-Ye... wait. Theres was 22 original star trek episodes, NYYYYARGH!
-Oh you are such a nerd. There was 23.
-22!
*slaps all round the house*

Thanks to South Park for my brilliant act.

its probably splochy and blurry cuz someone ripped it badly...while BO's someone took a screenshot of the PC version...i have no idea whats clear right now cuz my monitor busted and im using my tv right now so everything looks blurry to me...but if you look at my first post with screenshots...ff7's CG looks 100 percent clearer compared to BO's CG...but that jus happens to be the quality of the rip...im gonna try to get both CGs straight from the games directory so they are both unbiased of ripping...i jus hope that BO has it in a valid format for watching them without the game...but the ff7 has nicely articulated 3d arenas, and the characters are nothing short of amazing for 1997. BO is jus cheap 2d sprites that rpg maker xp can implement with no probs on a 2d background that can also be made in MS Paint...there is nothing amazing about that...

unseen, please stop lying to yourself constantly and shut up please! BO looks better than FFVII and you know it!

Ok. Lets stop this now. No reason to be mean to him he didn't do shit wrong. Why the fuck are you people making this thread backslide into doom again? I finally manage to bring it back and here we are with the fuckng name calling again. Chill the fuck out and discuss. Where the hell are your pics those who attack his views?

Damn you guys are assholes about this.

Blood Omen was one of the best games ever. LoK is a series to rival Final Fantasy. Who gives a shit? That ain't the point of this thread.

I don't like it. I liked the WEAPONS and some characters (NOT Cloud, Aeris or Sephiroth), and the music was very good. That's about it...

well, thats not the point of the thread either...right now we are in a debate on ff7 and another game that came out about that time....so moving on...

Im nominating unseen for fuck-head of the month, no, YEAR!

well, there was an intelligent thing to post. I would be happy to have that honor...but at least take it to another thread instead of destroying this for the i dont know how manyth time...but yes...thanks...ill try to uphold my traditions in hoping to make this honor next year..thanks everyone....lets see if we can nominate you for biggest dumbass of the year...we can be in the hall of shame together...its funny that everyone is saying..."hey ff fanboys...make a valid argument...ooo...you guys are stupid...you cant back your shit up..." and now that someone is trying to do that in a sensible and professional matter....he gets harassed...seems to me that people against ff7 are jus lonely immature jackasses that have no life...now anyways...MOVING ON...

well, there was an intelligent thing to post. I would be happy to have that honor...but at least take it to another thread instead of destroying this for the i dont know how manyth time...but yes...thanks...ill try to uphold my traditions in hoping to make this honor next year..thanks everyone....lets see if we can nominate you for biggest dumbass of the year...we can be in the hall of shame together...
Thats quite funny of you to say actually...
First:

well, there was an intelligent thing to post.
I havent seen you post one thing intelligent while posting in this thread.
Second:

but at least take it to another thread instead of destroying this for the i dont know how manyth time
This coming from a person who has posted nothing but crap for the last 5 pages. I think you shared a part in ruining the thread, mister.
Third:

lets see if we can nominate you for biggest dumbass of the year
You just got yourself nominated for another award... worst comeback ever!

nothing intelligent...have you read the last page??? wheres anything intelligent you have posted...and yes, i ruined it...and im trying to get it back on topic....and just because i ruin it..gives you every right to sink as low as me to ruin it too? congrats for taking it back off topic. You are clearly the bigger man now...everyone better bow down to his holyness...the one of great verbal wrath...oooo...now that that is over with...can we please get back on topic now?

nothing intelligent...have you read the last page??? wheres anything intelligent you have posted...and just because i ruin it..gives you every right to sink as low as me to ruin it to? Im trying to make it better by getting back on topic...and congrats for taking it back off topic. You are clearly the bigger man now...can we please get back on topic now?
Im not seeing much on topic stuff lately...
Seeming as i posted once on the last page (maybe not even that!... THAT MEANS ZERO FOOLS!) i dont see how i could have possible posted anything intelligent. AND HOW THE FUCK ARE YOUR LIES... "trying to get back on topic."
Seems as if you are still lying to yourself.

everyone better bow down to his holyness...the one of great verbal wrath
Hey i never said i was holy, and where the fuck does "verbal wrath" come from?
Just because you ant think up an insult, dont make up ones that are really, really lame.

Also i see you edited that bit in, were you like, "Heh, lets see how he goes with more of my bullshit... hmm, i guess that was kinda lame... what to put in...? Ah yes, the perfect remedy, complete and utter bullshit! Yes i think i have a spare case of that lying around"

i posted once on the last page (maybe not even that!... THAT MEANS ZERO FOOLS!)
uh oh...watch out...lil johnny can count and subtract....

uh oh...watch out...lil johnny can count and subtract....
I dont know whether you fucked up with that or are trying to take the piss but failing dismally...



*Discussion over*

it should have been over before it started...what have you gained from this exactly? nothing...thats what, so stop wasting our time

it should have been over before it started...what have you gained from this exactly? nothing...thats what, so stop wasting our time
Oh god, that is a dumd thing to say.
1. What have you gained?
2. Stop wasting our time? Well you're the one trying to be correct and you HAVE to have the last word ( so you post, post after post, hoping that at least one you will say something intelligent, but only out of pure luck )so basically you are wasting your own time bothering to come here, you will just be out-witted.

Im ending this discussion for fear of being Banned. So its over, let it go, and dont put in the last word, it will just come out all fuck-tarded and stupid.

its funny you end a discussion, and come right back...outwitted? by you?..pshh..please...and i dont care if it comes out all fuck-tarded and stupid...its not all about you, im not trying to impress you...unless ya wanna...ya...you know what i mean*wink*....

well, it turns out that the download failed...and i cant seem to get any other good bit torrents of BO. If anyone has any BO CG's they could submit to me, or tell me where to find them, ill try to get the comparison page up ASAP

I have only one thing to say to you two: I WANT MY IQ POINTS BACK! Come on guys, you get into a cussing match over GRAPHICS?! Graphics determine absolutely nothing about the quality of the game. I'd take FFI's graphics over FFX's any day. And Unseen, you made a good effort at making a point, but you really can't determine how good a games graphics are unless you play it. That is why I will not post an opinion about BO; I've never played it. Chewey, you have only exacerbated the problem. Unseen, you were on the right track for a while and then you let the insults get to you and you reverted to the name-calling. Let's not act like three-year-olds, alright? Please post your next point, about something other than graphics, because that was the biggest waste of time I've ever seen.

i believe that graphics have a lot to do with gameplay. I know its not everything...and i dont complain about old timey graphics. ever since i got the original NES version of FF1...ive been playin it nonstop. I beat it jus the otherday and it was great. But still yet...graphics do have a lot to do with a game. If there were no graphics...then you could not play a game at all....(well unless it talked to you and told you what to do or something of that nature...but no one wud probably play em), and yes, that is why i started downloading BO...jus to make sure...and get the CGs from it. But i really dont see the point in making my next point. The only people that read this thread is assholes that harass everyone, and dragoncurry and ff1withalltheives which you guys are alright. Ive set my diff aside with dragon. its not really an audience thats worth wasting my time to do it. Even if i post an opinion...and it happens to be true...and i put all the factual evidence in it. They still will jus say...nope...your lying...yout stupid....stop posting...

"Im nominating unseen for fuck-head of the month, no, YEAR!"

Nice real nice. He tries to get back on topic..you judge him from his previous posts..and call hima fuckhead. Real nice chewey. If your ass called me that after I posted some viable evidence I would slap you. Even if he is wrong. EVEN if he is wrong. NO REASON TO CALL HIM A FUCKHEAD. None at all. Say it nicely and I am 100 fucking percent sure he won't say some insult. "I think you are wrong and here and here is why." Just because you didn't think of that before you typed something on the fucking page you deserve to be the fuckhead of the fucking year.

"Im nominating unseen for fuck-head of the month, no, YEAR!"

Nice real nice. He tries to get back on topic..you judge him from his previous posts..and call hima fuckhead. Real nice chewey. If your ass called me that after I posted some viable evidence I would slap you. Even if he is wrong. EVEN if he is wrong. NO REASON TO CALL HIM A FUCKHEAD. None at all. Say it nicely and I am 100 fucking percent sure he won't say some insult. "I think you are wrong and here and here is why." Just because you didn't think of that before you typed something on the fucking page you deserve to be the fuckhead of the fucking year.
Oh god... stupidity

?!?!?!? See? This is the crap I am talking about. Why would you do that?! You don't do it anywhere else other than here! And neither does uneen. Why would you be mean like that when he didn't deserve it after trying to change!

?!?!?!? See? This is the crap I am talking about. Why would you do that?! You don't do it anywhere else other than here! And neither does uneen. Why would you be mean like that when he didn't deserve it after trying to change!
I did that because what you just was complete and utter stupidity. I do it everywhere, not just here. Basically coz im a prick when i wish to be, sometimes when i dont. He does deserve it and what is all this crap about "change"?

Okok you're right but what I meant about change (in this thread) was that he kept saying stuff without any backup (e.g FF is gretest period) and that is why everyone called him a fuckbag and other mean stuff. BUT then he was like, HEY here is my reasons and pics to try to prove why I think it's the greatest! So then the rest of the people went.."hey it's unseen and we don't like his posts previous to this so we will just IGNORE it and keep calling hima fuckbag and change the name of this thread from 'Why FInal Fantasy IS a good game." to "Why unseen IS a fuckbag."

I don't mind if people say mean stuff to jackasses but he was pretty nice when he posted that thread and I didn't see any reason to call him a fackbag. Unless of course you were referring to his posts BEFORE the one where he showed his proof. Which I highly doubt because you said he had nothing intelligent in the last 5 pages and that is not true. No nothing against you or anyone but that name calling after he posted that was uncalled for.

I did that because what you just was complete and utter stupidity.
lol, i believe i jus got stupider by reading that...and let me tell you, that is not an easy task. Anywho, yes, i was trying to get this thread back on topic, and at least prak was adult enough to debate back...while chewy and chorns jus gave me shit. Its not like i care, but wasnt it you guys tellin us about stating all this shit without backing it up...you guys didnt back one god damn thing up, and harassed me the whole time. Yes, i bet you guys just feel so much bigger now...woo...if you want to harass me, or flame me...jus pm me, its not like i care all that much...ill be happy to reply to your hatemail there...at least lets keep the threads clean of this shit for now on...what you are doing is making you look as bad as i did a couple pages ago...and thats a BURN FYI...so lets keep it clean not for my sakes...but for everyone else that wants to actually debate...

Okok you're right but what I meant about change (in this thread) was that he kept saying stuff without any backup (e.g FF is gretest period) and that is why everyone called him a fuckbag and other mean stuff. BUT then he was like, HEY here is my reasons and pics to try to prove why I think it's the greatest! So then the rest of the people went.."hey it's unseen and we don't like his posts previous to this so we will just IGNORE it and keep calling hima fuckbag and change the name of this thread from 'Why FInal Fantasy IS a good game." to "Why unseen IS a fuckbag."

I don't mind if people say mean stuff to jackasses but he was pretty nice when he posted that thread and I didn't see any reason to call him a fackbag. Unless of course you were referring to his posts BEFORE the one where he showed his proof. Which I highly doubt because you said he had nothing intelligent in the last 5 pages and that is not true. No nothing against you or anyone but that name calling after he posted that was uncalled for.
Um, i dont post in this thread much. I just came in, saw unseen be a fuck face, then bagged him. Plus, i havent seen much of this proof, or any of the proof he said he was gonna present.

and i told you why im not able to present some of it...incase you not only have a hard time speaking proper english, but also cant read...the download of BO failed...and im having a hard time finding any of the FMV's of BO...if anyone knows where to find em...and yes..that includes you also chewy, tell me, and ill get it up...until then...it will probably be a while before i can find a valid download of BO, or go pay the money to get the computer version of it...which i dont care to pay money to state some of my points of view...and man did you bag me...im tired from all the "bagging"...me go sleepy now

its funny that everyone is saying..."hey ff fanboys...make a valid argument...ooo...you guys are stupid...you cant back your shit up..." and now that someone is trying to do that in a sensible and professional matter....he gets harassed...seems to me that people against ff7 are jus lonely immature jackasses that have no life
oh my.

When you mention 'everyone', that is basically talking about a few people. Prak and I are the two people that are contributing the most to this thread from the 'hater' side, and we are doing nothing like what you are accusing you to do. In fact, I haven't said anything in this thread for a while, because all it has turned out to be is nothing more than immature teenagers trying to impress other immature teenagers with 'who can come up with the better insult'.

Seriously, unseen, you started to finally talk about FFVII, and then you let Chewey get the best of you. Don't say anything back to fuel the fire, and keep posting your opinions. You are acting immature, so just let it go and keep doing what you were previously doing. And if you notice, the only ones that are harassing you are immature people who haven't posted anything great themselves.

Chewey, I don't even know why you posted here in the first place. You haven't contributed anything useful to this thread, ever. Then all of a sudden you come in strutting how unseen hasn't done anything? Yes there was some anger in this thread before you came, but you only intensified the flame that much more. You are acting the most immature at all, and if you have nothing to add except 'YOU'RE A FUCKTARD UNSEEN COS YOU CAN'T POST FACTS', then don't post here at all.

I don't want to be mean about this, but I have to because you two, and a few others, are just wrong. So once again, stop. Move on, and don't say anything else about it. Post your opinions, and then back them up. Stop insuting each other, and get back on topic.

yeah, your right. It was a lil immature of me to jus "fuel the fire"...but i was jus gettin sick of these people that do this on a daily basis...but ill quit trying to get back at everyone that does stuff like that..i wish from here on out...a mod wud keep this thread clean of all that stuff...so we can stick to the point

Ok with the graphics argument going on here You cannot compare those two for graphics just becuase they both have 3D cinematics. This is like comparing Diablo to Final Fantasy X just becuase both have CGI shots. Blood Omen may have stunning Cinematic Graphics but so does Final Fantasy VII its just a different environment and mood that the two are trying to display. FF7 is a futuristic fantasy with light bright colors that you dont normally see in everyday life while BO is a gothic middle ages fanatasy game with a dark and gloomy aspect. they are two entirly different moods with two entirly different types of color schemes. Both CG graphics are great they just are showing two different moods. And the in game graphics are better in FF7 they are fully 3D and and clear yes their a bit blocky and and a little lacking in detail but they are still 3D and you can see more of your characters than you can in BO. If they put more detail into them they would look worse. BO looks more detailed becuase its 2D!!!

And the president of nintendo said this which i think you should all see

"But as importantly, even within these genres, we have reduced the �environments� we use. The racing tracks .. the sound tracks .. the bosses .. the heroes .. are starting to look more and more alike. Consider Tiger Woods Golf and Mario Golf�each a successful franchise, but using two different looks for the same genre. Such variety is becoming harder and harder to find. We are even getting �smaller� in how we define progress. Making games look more photorealistic is not the only means of improving the game experience. I know, on this point, I risk being misunderstood. So remember, I am a man who once programmed a baseball game with no baseball players. If anyone appreciates graphics, it�s me! But my point is that this is just one path to improved games. We need to find others. �Improvement� has more than one definition."

Trekkie, you have your moments where you almost become a decent contender. This was not one of them. You totally missed the point that the entire FFVII-BO CG thing stemmed from someone saying that FFVII's cg scenes were the first and best. No matter how lame and biased it was, someone was making an argument and I rose to counter it. As for different styles, that is absolutely irrelevant to the context of my own arguments because I cited technical merits, not artistic merits.

And as for saying that FFVII's in-game graphics are better because they're 3d and you can see more of the characters, that is complete and total crap. The graphics in FFVII were eye-popping at the time just because it was something new. However, age has been far kinder to the later 2D FFs and other 2D top-down rpgs. That simple fact alone should be enough to dismiss what you've said.

you saying that the top down 2d graphics has aged well has told us absolutely nothing....im gonna have to see some factual evidence...cuz you saying it doesnt make it true...so until i we see some...dont throw around words like "that simple fact alone"...your starting to sound like us fanboys...(example... ff7 is a great game...this fact alone throws your months of arguing down the shitter)...see?

Well some examples of topdown 2d graphics aging well are Grand Theft Auto 1, London and 2, the Zelda series up to LTP, the Warcraft series. They were all great series which started out topdown 2d.

yeah...they are great games...but what made their graphics age so well? Sonic is a great game...but its graphics didnt age well...so being a great game doesnt mean that the graphics have to age well

All right then. If you really want to play dirty and press the issue, I'll do it.

FFVII's 3D graphics have not aged well largely due to the fact that the quality was inconsistent. The design and detail on the models varied wildly from one mode of play to the next--movement within areas, movement on the world map, and battle--and the level of detail on all except battle screens was laughable. The inconsistent graphical quality certainly detracts from the overall experience.

Meanwhile, the 2D top-down perspective games from that era typically feature a consistent level of detail between environment and sprites. The level of detail on the sprites of such games was clearly superior to that of the 3D characters in FFVII. What difference does it really make if you can see more of the characters when the characters you see less of look better?

Ok prak would you rather have FF7 have detailed graphics and be pixely like the original starfox or would you rather have it be clear smooth and less pixely like it is now? and the only ingame graphic where they characters look different is from regular game mode to battle mode and obviously they look different in the cinematic sequences. but in the town/dungeon views, the cutscenes, and the world map they all look the same they're either bigger or smaller thats they only difference. Secondly Blood Omen was really pixely while FF7 was not. The cinematics where not better than FF7 they were different becuase the two games where trying to show a different mood so one had darker more gloomy and hot colors while they other had lighter cool colors. and just becuase Blood Omen had pretty CGs first doesnt mean they are better than everything else afterwards. This is like saying Starfox has better graphics than FFX becuase it was the first 3D console game which is obviously not true. FF7s graphics are much smoother and more beautiful (do to the mood the color choice created) than blood omens. from the screenshots and downloads i have done of both FF7 cinematics and Blood omens FF7 to me looked much smoother and prettier than blood omens not saying that blood omens arent good becuase they are but FF7s are much nicer.

and with your last statement you made in blood omen game screenshots and seeing people play it i had a really hard time telling the character apart from the backround. In battle mode the characters were pretty well detailed in FF7. And they may not be so detailed in the other modes but hey i would much rather have a clearer smoother easier to recognize less detailed character that is easy to destinguish from the backround then a pixelated mess like blood omen.

Finally graphics dont make a great game, its storyline, characters, gameplay, and overall funness do which FF7 was great on all of these which i have explained why enough times in the past so I'm not gonna go into detail with it, if you wanna see it to get your mind refreshed than go back a couple pages.

Finally graphics dont make a great game, its storyline, characters, gameplay, and overall funness do which FF7 was great on all of these which i have explained why enough times in the past so I'm not gonna go into detail with it, if you wanna see it to get your mind refreshed than go back a couple pages.

Whether you're right or wrong, this is totally useless to post. I agree that graphics don't make a great game; I think graphics have NOTHING to do with its quality, but I'm a bit radical in that respect. Anyway, all you just said was that you already won the debate. I'm not flaming you for posting bad stuff here, but you definitely did not singlehandedly win this debate, and considering the amount of support you've gotten, there's still much left to be discussed. Saying that there's nothing left to debate is much different from saying that one issue brought up has already been addressed. Only use the "I already posted on that" argument in reference to a specific issue, not to all of the general areas of the game.

But i wasnt saying i won the debate already i was just stating that graphics dont make the game other aspects do whihc i have already said enough times and I simply see no need to reapeat myself.

I dont know how the discussion got to graphics, but I personally do not think that graphics should matter in a game. These days, most games are made to LOOK good, not play good. Modern games have very little lifespan, but may have amazing graphics, I would personally not want to sped around �30 on a game that I can complete in a weekend, when FFVII which may not have the best graphics has lasted be around 7 years so far.

I agree with that except when the graphics are so bad you cant tell whats going on at times.

I agree with that except when the graphics are so bad you cant tell whats going on at times.

I think that makes it fun.

it can but think about a game with really bad graphics that are so pixely you cant tell the character apart from the backround now thats pretty bad, i know i have played games like that before i just cant think of them right now probably becuase i'm tired.

Tired my ass.

EDIT (revised cuz i wasnt in right state of mind when i posted that): Why dont you stick with debating, or stay outta the thread

It's just not much of an excuse.

I think games where you can't distinguish the characters from the background are really fun!

ok thats your opinion.

He was being factious.

My main point was that graphics aren't really a factor in the quality of a game because systems change and there will always be weirdos who prefer worse graphics because they look funny. See, you said that the thing about graphics was just my opinion; well, I could say the very same to you.

I think that it is one of the best games I ever played, even if its graphics aren't the best, they were quite good by the time it was released.

Did you somehow miss what everyone is debating about idontknowathing?!