i do give facts and examples from the game they just ignore them and go straight for the opinions

no, most fanboys on this site tend to give poor arguments, with not much to back up their statements, and then say something like you said, "i'll accept that u dont like the game if u accept that i like it", when theres no arguments over that, its about the game itself, not the opinions of liking it or not. its about what makes the game good or not


How can you say the characters dont care about each other!?! When Aeris dies Cloud Falls apart Tifa walks up kisses her on the forehead and runs off crying and i dont know what the other characters do cuz i either dont remeber or they werent in my party. Cid and Shera obviously care about each other or cid would have luanched the rocket and killed her and shera wouldnt have saved cids life when the O2 tank blew up on him. Cloud and Tifa care about each other cuz if they didnt Tifa would have let Cloud fall to his death in the end and wouldnt have gotten him out of the life stream.




updated the score
trekki-5
prak-11

I think Prak's gonna win without having to post again... I'd help out, but that would be 2v1, which would be unfair to me because as far as I'm concerned Trekki has had negative debating skill.

Pass the popcorn and let's watch trekkiessomething get wasted again.

yah i would help to cause i like the game but i dont really give a care about arguing over it anymore......as long as i know that i like it:)

I think Prak's gonna win without having to post again... I'd help out, but that would be 2v1, which would be unfair to me because as far as I'm concerned Trekki has had negative debating skill.

i didn't exactly intend for it to be 1-1, i just decided to keep score from there, and those are the only two going at it so far. and yes, Prak will probably demolish the opposition. in 2 posts to his 1 since, he's still up 11-5. and regarldless of negative skills, i'm pretty much trying to keep giving points to only making at least a somewhat valid statement to back ur side about the game. anything that is based primarily or soley on opinion gets nothing, along with other things. Like for example, Prak did make valid arguments about star wars and lord of the rings as examples in his debate, but those were a little off topic and weren't exactly game related, so i gave no points for that particular part of the post.

not that it may even mean anything to anyone that i'm now keeping score, but i'm pretty unbiased about the topic and try to be fair about points, so maybe if this carries on long enough, esepcially at the current rate of which prak's side is outscoring the oposition, people will get an idea of just how bad some of the people here are at defending their game.

and just so eveyone is knows, its not just for those two, anyone that joins in on the debate will be counted. so i will officially name each side

FFVII Fanboys-5
FFVII Haters-11

(I know not everyone on each side is a fanboy or a hater, but u get the idea)

Why the hell are you keeping score anyway? Anyone can see who's getting their behinds kicked.

Pass the popcorn and let's watch trekkiessomething get wasted again.
heh heh, that sounds like fun...


yah i would help to cause i like the game but i dont really give a care about arguing over it anymore......as long as i know that i like it:)
Dude, if you like it, by all means, go for it, none of us are stopping you from liking a game we don't like...

Why the hell are you keeping score anyway? Anyone can see who's getting their behinds kicked.

boredom, and the fact that most of the people that defend the game on here especially, seem to refuse to believe that the other side has valid points

There are drugs to help those that can't see what's right in front of them. Keeping a score won't help. Let them debate. All the more fun for us.

The saddest thing about this debate is that only one of the people who says FF7 is a bad game is needed to throw all the fanboys into hopeless turmoil, Rabid Monkey and Smokey haven't even posted in quite a while, and they were much better at debating then anyone I've seen on the other side (including myself.)

It's not sad, it's good clean fun. Hey Chorns, hot popcorns right here hahaha

Took me a while to get back online, but I'm game for another round of this.


How can you say the characters dont care about each other!?! When Aeris dies Cloud Falls apart Tifa walks up kisses her on the forehead and runs off crying and i dont know what the other characters do cuz i either dont remeber or they werent in my party.

All the characters were present for that scene. Anyway, I didn't say that none of the characters cared about the others. I said most didn't. Do you think Cid gave a damn about the other characters? Of course not. It was just because they had a common goal. Vincent certainly didn't care. Yuffie had no deep connections to any other party member. And Cait Sith... you know that story as well as I, I'm sure.

But whether they were all friends is inconsequential anyway.


Cid and Shera obviously care about each other or cid would have luanched the rocket and killed her and shera wouldnt have saved cids life when the O2 tank blew up on him.

Granted, but Shera is hardly a major character. She's nothing more than a peripheral character designed for Cid's backstory.


Cloud and Tifa care about each other cuz if they didnt Tifa would have let Cloud fall to his death in the end and wouldnt have gotten him out of the life stream.

Again, this falls under the exceptions I allowed for.


And prak you broke up what i said so it doesnt make much sense i said "I know plenty of people who bought the game not just for its advertising, and those who think its just good for the advertising are just saying tthat to smash down others opinions..."

I broke it up to make separate counter-arguments. I split them at a point where they could have been divided into two sentences anyway.


And Prak you do realize that there is and equal or even bigger number of people who DO count final fantasy VII as one of the best games ever.

How do you know that? Have you taken an impartial vote? I seriously doubt it. Most polls you see on this kind of thing are on FF fan sites, which is hardly credible because only a very small minority of gamers frequent them. And those are likely to be biased already.


And you say a lot of my things are opinions well a lot of your things are opinions too such as your opinion is that it is good just for the advertising while mine and others are its good becuase of something else.

I didn't say it was good for the advertising. I said that contributed greatly to its popularity, not its quality.


Another example of this is i say its fun and you say its not.

That is most certainly a matter of opinion. And as I have freely stated that I have no objection to people liking whatever they want to, I don't see this line of conversation leading anywhere.


Chorns goes on about how 6 is better than 7 and thats an opinion

To say that FFVI is better than FFVII is not a statement of opinion. It is a statement of fact. An opinion would be "I believe FFVI is a better game." Whether chorns' statement is correct is another matter entirely.


before you start saying our facts dont count becuase they're opinions look through some of your facts and see how many are opinions.

Certainly, I give opinions. However, I reinforce them with supporting arguments. Debate 101 there.


And you say we repeat ourselves well for the past 2 or 3 pages youve been saying its the advertising its the advertising.

And I'll do it as long as I have to. It's a valid counterpoint to another argument that's been used just as often, if not more so. If you're allowed to repeat the same thing over and over and I'm not, I'll eventually run out of material pretty quick.


And finally Prak im getting sick and tired of this arguing ill accept your opinions if you'll accept mine. I personally think its one of the bes games ever and if you'll accept that some peoples opinions are different and we just liked the game i will accept that some people dont like the game.

Hm. I never get sick of it. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm perfectly accepting of your opinions. However, I happen to disagree with them and will always say why in the context of a debate.


just quit trying to attack our opinions and make others hate the game and we will stop trying to make others love it

I'm not trying to make you hate the game. And I don't interpret what others have been doing as an attempt to make me love it either. It's a debate. Nothing more or less.


after all this thread is for those who love it and want to talk about why they love it while the other is for those who dont like and want to talk about why they dont like it.

Wrong. From page one, the other thread was a debate about the game's quality, offering both sides a fair and equal opportunity to express their views. This one was a direct ripoff, so it's only fair that it be treated the same way.

Incidentally, we're not saying anything of value now, so you should either come up with new arguments or bow out gracefully.

god damn im running out of popcorn.......hey God is Dead and chorns u want me to run to the store and get some more?
hehehe

and prak whos that guy in ur damn sig i cannot figure it out and its frustrating me

I knew I just had to stick around to laugh at Trekies... again.

Sure thing man. *gives popcorn*

*off topic* The guy in Prak's sig is Lucius Malfoy (Draco's father) from Harry Potter, Played magnificently by Jason Isaacs...

*on topic* I've noticed that the advertising argument crops up a lot, but I have never seen an advert for 7 in England, thats not to say there arn't any, but it had no relevance on me liking the game, and I've posted my reasons for liking 7 earlier so 'm not going through it again.....

Ps the advertising thing is just a statement from my behalf, not an reason or excuse as to why I think the game is good...

Pass the popcorn please :)

I remember seeing advertisements for FF7. It was the first time I ever saw an FF game advertised. It wasn't that last, though, I saw FF8, FFX, and FFX-2 advertised. I never saw an ad for FF9, although I did see an online video of a Coke commercial using FF9 characters. Before FF7, there were basically no advertisements for FF games at all. That was just to clarify things a bit.

You know, I could go for some popcorn, too. Who wants ultimate butter?

FFVII Fanboys-5 (posts-2)
FFVII Haters-12 (posts-2)

omg, that is sad.

Y'know it's not like we're trying to enforce a law that says you can't like FFVII, we're just debating, so I have no clue why you FFVII fans are making such a big deal about it.

You think it's sad? The saddest part of it is that the scorekeeper is being very very lenient. All of Trekkies's points have been flattened by Prak. I don't see why I should bother to back FF7 from this point; this is way too entertaining. It's more fun than any movie.

The most revealing thing about these threads to me is that moderate FF7 fans (i.e. me) are arguing against the fanboys just because they're making stupid comments and not because they think the game is bad.

I dont really care anymore in my mind its a great game and its one of the best ever made you guys can think what you want but that is my opinion and its not changing.

Y'know it's not like we're trying to enforce a law that says you can't like FFVII, we're just debating, so I have no clue why you FFVII fans are making such a big deal about it.

No, you're just being bastards about it. You debate and debate until nothing is proven (because really, It can't be truly proven either way, since it's all opinion, rather than fact as some people like to pretend) and continue on. It's annoying. Like "flaming-gay-little-brother-in-your-face" annoying. But, since I am not actually offended or otherwise hold any value to anything said in this thread, I'm not gonna try and stop you from going onward. I'm too goddamn busy care about stupid things like this anyway.

Also: Why this thread is STILL around? Jeebus, you people are really tenacious. I'd admire that, but I'm inclined to dislike you.

You amuse me. Please keep ranting like that because it only discredits the side you support.

You know he actually does have a point there becuase nothing is fact its all opinion and how the person playing it percieves it. But whatever i dont care anymore

You're actually very wrong. There have been irrefutable facts presented constantly over the course of the debate, mostly in the other thread. Go look through it if you have the patience to read it. It's very enlightening.

But those are peoples opinions you cant scientifically prove them as fact becuase they are peoples opinions and it all depends on how someone percieves it.

Actually, I proved quite well that FFVII was graphically inferior compared to other games of that time period. I pulled out arguments about pallette size, shading, and polygon counts, which are not subject to personal opinion. It is also an undeniable fact that there are numerous translation errors and grammatical errors in the game. On top of that, there's the fact that better sound quality was possible, as was shown by other games of that time period that had orchestrated soundtracks.

Need I continue?

ok those are facts but who cares i could care less about the sound and the graphics i play a game becuase its fun and has a good story. but how can you scientifically prove the story is bad, how can you prove the characters are bad, how can you prove the battle system sucks, how can you prove all those other things are facts.

Hey prak i just got some info

FF7 was released in japan on 1/31/97 and in the us on 7/9/97
Blood Omen wasnt released until 11/17/97 thats almost a year later so yes its going to have better graphics it was the pc version that came before ff7 and pc always has better graphics than consoles becuase they can have better graphics cards plus ff7 was in development in 1996 so it has the best graphics of games in 1996 and 1997 and yes the PSX could have better graphics but at the time they didnt know that and if they did they probably didnt go better becuase they feared it might have caused problems its just like with the NES look at mario1 its graphics suck but at the time they thought that was as good as it would go then look at mario 3 its graphics are great for the NES and they're better becuz they realized the NES could do more.

Either you have not read the rest of the argument or you just ignored what you didn't want to see. There've been endless pages on that very subject. Try reading them. It's very enlightening.

This is great. Hey trekkies keep making a fool of yourself. We apreciate it.

In case u missed it cuz i edited late

Hey prak i just got some info

FF7 was released in japan on 1/31/97 and in the us on 7/9/97
Blood Omen wasnt released until 11/17/97 thats almost a year later so yes its going to have better graphics it was the pc version that came before ff7 and pc always has better graphics than consoles becuase they can have better graphics cards plus ff7 was in development in 1996 so it has the best graphics of games in 1996 and 1997 and yes the PSX could have better graphics but at the time they didnt know that and if they did they probably didnt go better becuase they feared it might have caused problems its just like with the NES look at mario1 its graphics suck but at the time they thought that was as good as it would go then look at mario 3 its graphics are great for the NES and they're better becuz they realized the NES could do more.

All of Trekkies's points have been flattened by Prak.

I agree, except that Prak fails to use any sort of coherent logic, so it doesn't matter what he says.
Example:
All the characters were present for that scene. Anyway, I didn't say that none of the characters cared about the others. I said most didn't. Do you think Cid gave a damn about the other characters? Of course not. It was just because they had a common goal. Vincent certainly didn't care. Yuffie had no deep connections to any other party member. And Cait Sith... you know that story as well as I, I'm sure.

But whether they were all friends is inconsequential anyway.

Ummm..duurrr? Friends obviously have feelings for each other; any retard can see that. Otherwise they wouldn't really be friends, so it obviously does matter. But, since Prak is not a sporting loser, nothing of logic matters. I'm just wasting my breath.

What really annoys me is they call our facts opinions which if you look at it that way their "facts" are also opinions in fact the only true fact they had i just disproved a post or two ago.

FF8 is better

Yeah cling to the only guy that gave you support so you can save your face a little bit. You were still beat up. And I'd just give up if I were you.

Hey prak i just got some info

FF7 was released in japan on 1/31/97 and in the us on 7/9/97
Blood Omen wasnt released until 11/17/97 thats almost a year later

I didn'r remember this before, but Blood Omen's release date is actually really tricky to find. There are numerous different dates attached to it, so it can be hard to find out which one was correct. The earliest date I've found for it was September of 1996 and I've confirmed that it was released on PlayStation by the end of that year, so it actually predated FFVII. The PC version came much later. I think the date you found was the Japanese release.


plus ff7 was in development in 1996 so it has the best graphics of games in 1996 and 1997

Nope. The only graphical edge it had was its pre-rendered backgrounds.


and yes the PSX could have better graphics but at the time they didnt know that and if they did they probably didnt go better becuase they feared it might have caused problems

Whether they knew about it or not is irrelevant in the face of the fact that someone else did it better.


its just like with the NES look at mario1 its graphics suck but at the time they thought that was as good as it would go then look at mario 3 its graphics are great for the NES and they're better becuz they realized the NES could do more.

Of course. Software is naturally going to use the hardware more effectively as time goes by. My point is that someone had already used it more effectively.


I agree, except that Prak fails to use any sort of coherent logic, so it doesn't matter what he says.

Many would disagree with you. I assert that you are speaking out of bias.


Ummm..duurrr? Friends obviously have feelings for each other; any retard can see that. Otherwise they wouldn't really be friends, so it obviously does matter.

Was there some kind of point to that? You said nothing of value. You spoke in general terms, but did not apply it to the issue at hand.


But, since Prak is not a sporting loser, nothing of logic matters. I'm just wasting my breath.

There's a little flaw in your reasoning. I'm quite a good sport when I lose. It's just that I haven't lost, nor do I do so easily. And I should point out that the neutral concensus says that you guys are getting trashed.

Now stop trying (pathetically) to insult me and take up the debate if you think you have something of worth to say. On second thought, I don't even care if you guys continue because I'm probably not even going to think about this anymore. I'm just gonna reply by quoting old points we've made unless you come up with new arguments.

FF8 is better
wrong forum...

Prak too bad the date i got was from THE MANUFACTURERS WEBSITE!!!!!!! and did you ever think ff7's graphics arent as good as some other games b/c squaresoft wanted it to look that way? the game is supposed to look cartoony and anime like thats why they all have big eyes and are short and tiny, they did it again in ff9.

And your other facts on why the story is easy and lame and the battle system sux etc. are completely opinionated they all depend on how the person playing percieves it.

Then show me. Post the link.

re read my post i edited it and look at who made the game the site said "blood omen Platform: PC Released 11/96 Blood Omen Platform: PSX released 11/97

I say again. Post a link. Show your source. You claimed it came form the manufacturer's website and I wanna see that.

According to this Final Fantasy III pwns Final Fantasy VII...it's just a little joke...
heh heh... (http://google-fight.com/cgi-bin/compare.pl?q1=Final+Fantasy+VII&q2=Final+Fantasy+III&B1=Make+a+fight%21&compare=1&langue=us) this was very pleasing to look at (just to let you know)...

its like silicon nights.com or something i also did a google search and found similar dates on multiple sites i dont remember

Post a link. Your credibility is getting flushed down the shitter because it looks like you're trying to dodge the request. If you're not lying your ass off or passing out unreliable information, then prove it.

its like silicon nights.com or something i also did a google search and found similar dates on multiple sites i dont remember
Why can't you just show us the damn site? Are you that frightened of us yelling at you for lying to us??

ooh, looks like someone was shot down (http://www.siliconknights.com/heritage/kain.htm), uhh...notice how it says 1996 there?? Ummm yeahhh...this came before FFVII!

the two sites i remember were www.gamestats.com and www.siliconknights.com but if what you say is true that they're are conflicting dates who knows whats really true.

But when it comes to a good game i could care less about graphics all i care about is the gameplay the story and the characters which all were good in ff7

the gameplay was good becuase it was easy to understand but still challenging becuase even though the battle system was easy to use it still had some tricks up its sleeve to make it challenging becuase of all the strategies such as the mime strategy.

The story i think is good becuase its just interesting and it has tons of unexpected twists in it such as aeris dying, clouds whole identity crisis on disc 2, all the stuff that happens when you return to midgar i just thought it was good and it had a lot of emotion in it.

The characters just seemed to have more depth in them than what they had in the previous ffs becuase they all knew each other beforehand and were very close in their own way the only previous ffs i can think of that did this were 2 3 and 4 and the characters werent really that close in those when you think about it.

But these are just my opinions and may i remind you that what you come up with to counter these is just your opinion as well in fact the only fact you can make is on graphics and sound which did it ever occur to you that squaresoft wanted ff7 to look the way it did even if it could look better? FF7 was supposed to look cartoony and anime like which is why the eyes are so big and the arms look so funny but the backrounds look pretty good for psx even the world map looks pretty good.

So you wouldn't care if FFVII had Pong graphics?? Wow, I would...

well the fact is ff wouldnt work with those graphics cuz they cant make things move very well it barely worked on NES but yes i do still play atari games and have fun with them and i just looked at blood omen screen shots what on earth makes you think that the gameplay graphics are better than ff7 and the cinematics look maybe a little better if not the same as ff7.

the two sites i remember were www.gamestats.com and www.siliconknights.com but if what you say is true that they're are conflicting dates who knows whats really true.

But when it comes to a good game i could care less about graphics all i care about is the gameplay the story and the characters which all were good in ff7

the gameplay was good becuase it was easy to understand but still challenging becuase even though the battle system was easy to use it still had some tricks up its sleeve to make it challenging becuase of all the strategies such as the mime strategy.

The story i think is good becuase its just interesting and it has tons of unexpected twists in it such as aeris dying, clouds whole identity crisis on disc 2, all the stuff that happens when you return to midgar i just thought it was good and it had a lot of emotion in it.

The characters just seemed to have more depth in them than what they had in the previous ffs becuase they all knew each other beforehand and were very close in their own way the only previous ffs i can think of that did this were 2 3 and 4 and the characters werent really that close in those when you think about it.

But these are just my opinions and may i remind you that what you come up with to counter these is just your opinion as well in fact the only fact you can make is on graphics and sound which did it ever occur to you that squaresoft wanted ff7 to look the way it did even if it could look better? FF7 was supposed to look cartoony and anime like which is why the eyes are so big and the arms look so funny but the backrounds look pretty good for psx even the world map looks pretty good.
I would believe the official site(hmm I wonder why?) I know for a fact that Square made the characters look like they did in FFs before VII because they didn't have enough space to make em look very realistic(there was so much other stuff on the carts).
About Aeris's death, three people die every minute, so get over it...how was miming hard?? How was any of the game hard?? It was overwhelmingly easy. Cloud's case was nothing surprising, he was a typical screwed up main character...
As someone said, FFVII was a bit of an experiment on the PSX seeing as it was the first FF game on the console...but so what?? Blood Omen was Silicon Knight's first PSX entry too and they did a better job with the graphics...Another thing, you just said that you could care less about the graphics, but now you say that it wouldn't be the same?? But you just said that you didn't care about the graphics! The background graphics are good because they are prerendered!!
No they did not know each other before the game starts!! Note how they have to introduce themselves to each other!(with exception of Tifa and Cloud), all they had was a common goal! Getting rid of Sephiroth! Notice how Cid reacts to Cloud when they first meet! That doesn't seem very friendly...
The gameplay was very simple(easy for beginners)I would consider this to be more opinion(I tend to like more complicated magic systems, characters to have more personal techniques, or to have something like a job/class system)... Getting to see/hear Squall's personal thoughts was much more personal than Cloud having a fucking breakdown...The world map looked pretty shitty...even for 1997. Oh yeah, some of this is FACT too, I won't say all of it is though...

im completely lost now whats this argument over game dates???....what is the argument as of now?...someone tell me

and legacy of kain was AWESOME

*OFF TOPIC* and to that jerk who said FF8 was better......id like to say yeah its pretty damn good.......im starting to enjoy 8's story alot more than 7

but then again nothing can beat FF6 BABY!!!!

im completely lost now whats this argument over game dates???....what is the argument as of now?...someone tell me

and legacy of kain was AWESOME

*OFF TOPIC* and to that jerk who said FF was better......id like to say yeah its pretty damn good.......im starting to enjoy 8's story alot more than 7

but then again nothing can beat FF6 BABY!!!!
props to you man...

i didnt say it wouldnt be the same i said it wouldnt work and blood omens graphics suck the cinematics are ok but the gameplay is like the first diablo. And what you said back there about the gameplay and such is an opinion not a fact and i still dont believe you work for squaresoft and if they werent trying to make the characters look cartoony and anime like and it was all just b/c of space THEN WHY DID THEY GIVE THEM ANIME EYES WHY DID THEY GIVE THEM ANIME ARMS?????

Sorry but I don't really know what you mean by anime arms, what's the difference between them and regular arms?


i didnt say it wouldnt be the same i said it wouldnt work and blood omens graphics suck the cinematics are ok but the gameplay is like the first diablo. And what you said back there about the gameplay and such is an opinion not a fact and i still dont believe you work for squaresoft and if they werent trying to make the characters look cartoony and anime like and it was all just b/c of space THEN WHY DID THEY GIVE THEM ANIME EYES WHY DID THEY GIVE THEM ANIME ARMS?????
I meant in FFI-VI they didn't have enough space...Oh yeah, I don't really care that you don't believe me...we are both living our own lives...it's not like we are roommates(boy would that suck)...

You think it's sad? The saddest part of it is that the scorekeeper is being very very lenient. All of Trekkies's points have been flattened by Prak. I don't see why I should bother to back FF7 from this point; this is way too entertaining. It's more fun than any movie.

The most revealing thing about these threads to me is that moderate FF7 fans (i.e. me) are arguing against the fanboys just because they're making stupid comments and not because they think the game is bad.

i'm tryin to be pretty fair, but yea, i'm probably a little more leniant on that side of things. but i guess u gotta face it, their side needs a slight handicap right now

i'm tryin to be pretty fair, but yea, i'm probably a little more leniant on that side of things. but i guess u gotta face it, their side needs a slight handicap right now
slight?

the two sites i remember were [url]


The story i think is good becuase its just interesting and it has tons of unexpected twists in it such as aeris dying, clouds whole identity crisis on disc 2, all the stuff that happens when you return to midgar i just thought it was good and it had a lot of emotion in it.

The characters just seemed to have more depth in them than what they had in the previous ffs becuase they all knew each other beforehand and were very close in their own way the only previous ffs i can think of that did this were 2 3 and 4 and the characters werent really that close in those when you think about it.




FFVII Fanboys-6 (posts-3)
FFVII Haters-12 (posts-2)



About Aeris's death, three people die every minute, so get over it...how was miming hard?? How was any of the game hard?? It was overwhelmingly easy. Cloud's case was nothing surprising, he was a typical screwed up main character...
As someone said, FFVII was a bit of an experiment on the PSX seeing as it was the first FF game on the console...but so what?? Blood Omen was Silicon Knight's first PSX entry too and they did a better job with the graphics...Another thing, you just said that you could care less about the graphics, but now you say that it wouldn't be the same?? But you just said that you didn't care about the graphics! The background graphics are good because they are prerendered!!
No they did not know each other before the game starts!! Note how they have to introduce themselves to each other!(with exception of Tifa and Cloud), all they had was a common goal! Getting rid of Sephiroth! Notice how Cid reacts to Cloud when they first meet! That doesn't seem very friendly...


FFVII Fanboys-6 (posts-3)
FFVII Haters-13 (posts-3)

FFVII Fanboys-6 (posts-3)
FFVII Haters-12 (posts-2)



FFVII Fanboys-6 (posts-3)
FFVII Haters-13 (posts-3)
thank you, I rarely get credit around here so that was nice...
Y'know I forgot to mention that Squall dies in the end of FFVIII(how many of you expected that?)

thank you, I rarely get credit around here so that was nice...
Y'know I forgot to mention that Squall dies in the end of FFVIII(how many of you expected that?)

did he actually die? I thought the end part with him and rinoa together ment he survived. That was definatly one of the more confusing endings i've seen.

I don't know, maybe I'll make a thread on it...

He lived. The game ends up with him kissing Rinoa. We don't see anything else. Maybe Rinoa kissed him to death. Is that what you're saying, Chorns? :P

Anyone who tries to use Aeris's death to argue that FF7 has a good story needs to reed what Rabid Monkey and Smokey said when this all began. Palom and Porom's deaths were at the very least as dramatic (FFIV for you noobs who didn't play even the SNES games), and Chrono's death absolutely pwns the crap out of Aeris's. Aeris is not the main character, and what she is doing when she dies is at first unclear. Chrono is trying as hard as he can to defeat Lavos, and he gets vaporized. I'm sure this isn't as thorough as what Rabid Monkey and Smokey said, so if you are even thinking about countering this point read their original posts, because I'm getting really irritated by people making points that have already been countered in the other thread.

And to add to that, it was much sadder in FFVI if you screw up and let Cid die in the world of ruin.

This has begun to bore me. Everything trekkie has said recently has already been addressed several times and I can't be bothered to do it again. If I have a little free time later, I'll post some quotes of those old replies. I think that'll make a better statement than something original anyway.

Hey Prak, just something to tax your obviously underworked mind, What is Good about FF7?

The gameplay, graphics, music, etc. may not look good now, but it did before, it was one of the best games out there, all u have to do is look at this situation from a primitive 1997 point of view... (*-*)

Anyone who tries to use Aeris's death to argue that FF7 has a good story needs to reed what Rabid Monkey and Smokey said when this all began. Palom and Porom's deaths were at the very least as dramatic (FFIV for you noobs who didn't play even the SNES games), and Chrono's death absolutely pwns the crap out of Aeris's. Aeris is not the main character, and what she is doing when she dies is at first unclear. Chrono is trying as hard as he can to defeat Lavos, and he gets vaporized. I'm sure this isn't as thorough as what Rabid Monkey and Smokey said, so if you are even thinking about countering this point read their original posts, because I'm getting really irritated by people making points that have already been countered in the other thread.

And to add to that, it was much sadder in FFVI if you screw up and let Cid die in the world of ruin.

FFVII Fanboys-6 (posts-3)
FFVII Haters-14 (posts-4)

The gameplay, graphics, music, etc. may not look good now, but it did before, it was one of the best games out there, all u have to do is look at this situation from a primitive 1997 point of view... (*-*)
Have you been paying any attention to our debate at all??

The reason aeris' death is more drammatic than in other games is becuase she didnt give it up, she didnt just die she was MURDERED! and in ff8 SQUALL DIDNT DIE!!! they make you think that but he didnt ifyou watch carefully when rinoa finds him and starts to cry and the clouds go away it shows here look down and she gets a look of happiness and hope in here eyes and face becuase squall woke up he was just unconcious ff8 is my favorite ff tied with 7 i know the ending like the back of my hand and trust me he didnt die.

and anime arms are arms that are normal on the bicep and fore arm but get very narrow at the elbow look at most animes and you will see this.

also im not saying the other ffs sucked im just saying 7 was better becuase it was a good game and was fun and itintroduced new ideas that were caried on into the later ffs. Such as the limit breaks and the limit break bar in previous ffs you could only use limit breaks in certain battles at certain times in ff7 you could use them any time depending on if you bar was full or not and you didnt have to worry about dying before using it and then losing the chance to use it. another is characters that are preset to have certain abilities but can be adapted to do other ones and in previous ffs you could have 2 characters use the same weapons while in this one even if they use the same type of weapon two characters couldnt use the same one ex: vincent and barret both use guns but barret cant use vincents guns and vincent cant use barrets guns in previous one you could have all your characters use a knife or a short sword or a bow which took away the characters uniqueness while in 7 the characters had there own unique fighting style and weapon type and it couldnt be changed.

The reason aeris' death is more drammatic than in other games is becuase she didnt give it up, she didnt just die she was MURDERED! and in ff8 SQUALL DIDNT DIE!!! they make you think that but he didnt ifyou watch carefully when rinoa finds him and starts to cry and the clouds go away it shows here look down and she gets a look of happiness and hope in here eyes and face becuase squall woke up he was just unconcious ff8 is my favorite ff tied with 7 i know the ending like the back of my hand and trust me he didnt die.

and anime arms are arms that are normal on the bicep and fore arm but get very narrow at the elbow look at most animes and you will see this.

also im not saying the other ffs sucked im just saying 7 was better becuase it was a good game and was fun and itintroduced new ideas that were caried on into the later ffs. Such as the limit breaks and the limit break bar in previous ffs you could only use limit breaks in certain battles at certain times in ff7 you could use them any time depending on if you bar was full or not and you didnt have to worry about dying before using it and then losing the chance to use it. another is characters that are preset to have certain abilities but can be adapted to do other ones and in previous ffs you could have 2 characters use the same weapons while in this one even if they use the same type of weapon two characters couldnt use the same one ex: vincent and barret both use guns but barret cant use vincents guns and vincent cant use barrets guns in previous one you could have all your characters use a knife or a short sword or a bow which took away the characters uniqueness while in 7 the characters had there own unique fighting style and weapon type and it couldnt be changed.
Most arms in anime look like regular arms(sorry to break it to ya...), and when I said unique techniques, obviously you didn't understand what I meant, in FFVI they had unique abilities, not unique weapons...sure, Cloud and Barret might use different types of weapons, but in the end of the game they both do aout the max damage anyway so...what's the difference? In VI, you have Setzer's Slots, Cyan's Sword Techs, Sabin's Tools, Gau's Rages, etc... that's what I meant...Oh yeah...FFVII was better cause it was a good game?? That's an opinion man...Some people here obviously think that other FF games were better...like FFVI, V, or VIII...and about the limit breaks, they were in VI and you would randomly be able to use them at anytime in the game as long as your health was low...

yeah it was random and when you got them ur health was low so you could die before using them in seven you could could use them in every battle garunteed and you could use them more than once per battle im not saying it sucked in 6 im just saying it was a little nicer in 7 becuz you knew when you would get them and could save them for bosses. and i just think it was a good game i know its an opinion but thats just what i think becuase it was just fun to play i dont know why it was it just was to me.

Well I thought getting Limit Breaks in VI was alot more unexpected than Aeris dying, don't you think?? People have died in FF games, but they never even told you that it would be possible to do a limit in place of a regular attack...and they were so much more cooler cause you only saw them a couple times throughout the entire game! So when you did get to see them, they looked really cool...

But like i said in previous games the characters usually willingly gave thier lives or it was becuase of something you did in ff7 aeris was murdered and you had no control of it so it just got people a little more emotionally becuase it wasnt like a character that annoyed you it was a person that we all liked to use and was really good becuase of her magic and such and had a caring personality in other games where people die its usually a person who annoyed the hell out of you and then died to save the rest of the team and willingly gave their life.

Aeris annoyed the crap out of me, so I was very glad the bitch died...

well thats your opinion but most people liked her and cryed their eyes out when she died and trust me that is a fact you can look at the poll in this forum for that info.

You failed english?? I can see why now...

i didnt fail i just dont do well and what brought that up again?

you spelt "cried" wrong...

isnt that what i wrote or was i typing too fast and spelled it wrong?

I'm not even going to bother reading the four pages that I missed, so I'll go ahead and post this just to conjure up some more debating:

Storyline

I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I'm older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.

Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It's just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.

Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That's it? That's the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.

This is the storyline of FFVII:

You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.

__________________________________________________

Notice how there aren't any bumps or nicks in the line?

Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.

Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:

Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.

Done.

Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.

Done.

Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.

Done.

This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn't really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.

Like I said before, it's like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

An Unfinished Game

The guy in the pipe at the beginning of the game could very well possibly be Zack. But, Square didn't add anything else to the game, that could have led you to finding out exactly who it was in there.

The guy who's living in it is a normal human who was
infected with Jenova cells, that's why he has a number 2 tattoo. After you have finished with dialouge in the Midgar Slums, you are told that an Elixer can be found in the pipe. But, when you go back there, you will not find an Elixer. Obviously, this is a mistake by Square, or quite possibly, an item they just took out of the game. But how could the item have gotten there in the first place?

The Nibelheim clones. Every guy in a black cloak gave us some item after we talked to him, right? And all the clones had a number tattoed on their body somewhere, just like the man in the pipe. But, if that's the case, why wouldn't this man give you an item as well?

If you want some more rock-solid evidence that FFVII isn't and never will be a finished game, go here

Aeris' Death

Aeris' death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn't make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party's resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.

Another thing: I don't see why people get so riled up about this scene. Aeris was going to die sooner or later, so why not just get it over with? In fact, it would have been worse if she died later in the game. Her relationship would have improved with Cloud probably, and it would have been more uncessessary drama to see her die after this.

She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.

The Importance of Aeris' Death

When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't know if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Yes, her death was important for the storyline, but she was going to die regardless of whether or not Sephiroth did her in first.

When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them.

Cloud in the Lifestream

Can you say incredibly boring? I mean, this sequence of events did reveal some important facts about Cloud and other necessities, but did Square have to do it in this fashion? I don't see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not like he intentionally jumped into the Lifestream for no apparent reason or anything.

Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.

The Materia System

I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it's a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you. That's pretty stupid if you ask me. Also, since the Materia depletes your HP and Strength, you have to waste even more slots to bring back up these two categories, with HP Plus, and Str. Plus.

I admit, that the Materia System was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that's it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work the Materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.

You say the Materia System takes some thinking and thought? Pfft. The strategy guide describes to you all of the basic combinations that you will ever need, even though it's doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work it. It isn't complicated at all. You just put a Materia here and there, and you will come up with a combination that is good enough.

The Materia System is terrible. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduces your maximum HP by 20%. So, you are capable of losing up to 2,000 of your Max HP, just by being able to cast a summon? That is pretty lame.

Also, the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in battles leveling up your Materia to a certain strongness is something that made the game very boring for me. I don't want to spend hours earning AP, just so that my Choco/Mog summon can gain another star, and be that much closer to giving birth to a new Choco/Mog.

The Advertising of FFVII

FFVII is by-far the most advertised game in history. On the television ads, you would see the FMV's from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.

Also, the strategy guide was released with the game. It was the first Final Fantasy game to do this, so that is another reason people loved this game immediately. Owners of local game shops everywhere were telling people to buy the strategy guide along with it, just to help with the publicity FFVII wanted to receive. With the stategy guide, gamers didn't even have to think about what to do next, or where to go. Everything was given to them on a silver platter, so to speak.

What Makes FFVII So Popular

FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, because it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it. I mean seriously, this is one of the easiest games I have ever played in my life, and I've been playing for well over 16 years now.

And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.

I also admit that there are some things that you need to stray off-course to acquire. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn't required to finish the game. It wasn't mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent's best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game. It would be nice if there was something hard that was mandatory in the game.

The Strategy Guide

The strategy guide. Yes, like I said before, this was the first Final Fantasy game to come with a strategy guide. The book alone is a reason that led to the huge success of FFVII. Take away the strategy guide with the release of the game, and the game would be less popular today. I know that strategy guides are available for the previous Final Fantasy games, but they are really hard to find now. And, they were hard to find then, because I never saw one for FFIV or FFVI. I love the challenge of playing through a game without any help. But, obviously thousands of FFVII fans didn't see it my way.

The game is incredibly easy. It tells you straight out what is playing out, in accordance with where you need to head next. You don't have to do a little bit of hunting to find out what location you are supposed to be at. I didn't actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.

Knights Of The Round

All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don't even need it to beat the game. I don't understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR. This summon helps make the game popular, while the fact of the matter is, KOTR is irrelevant to finishing the game.

You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there's no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.

It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don't even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it's pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.

Manipulation

FFVII was a smash hit because the game manipulated it's fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.

Play Final Fantasy 1-6 First

Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn't say that everything about the game is revolutionary. FFVI has a better storyline than FFVII, and also more personality in their characters. FFIV had the ongoing theme of the love triangle between Cecil, Kain, and Rosa.

What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.

The Graphics

The graphics were some of the best anyone had ever seen when the game came out. Yes, it was nice to see this, but it subtracted from the storyline. I believe, basically, that the storylines of all the Final Fantasy games after VI have gone downhill. Square is putting more time and thought into graphical representation than storytelling, and that's a shame.

You really can't use the argument of FFVII's graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. By reading this, you would have to say that FFVIII was revolutionary in graphics, not FFVII. Of course the graphics were better than those of the SNES. But, what do you expect from a more powerful system in the Playstation?

The Limit Break

Quite frankly, I thought it was retarded. You aren't allowed to physically attack anymore until you have used your Limit Break? That is so stupid. What happens if you are right before a big boss, and you earn your Limit Break. You don't want to use it on weak enemies, and you certainly don't want to spend more time earning the Limit Break again if you do decide to use it.

Shinra And The Turks

This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.

The Ending

I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline. It just shows Red XIII overlooking a grassy Midgar? Wow, that's awesome!

No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That's it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn't make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn't leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.

The Battle System

Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn't see this at all in FFVII.

Sephiroth

Greatest villian of all time?

No. Sephiroth is maybe a descent villian, but I don't consider him to be better than someone like Kefka, by a longshot.

I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That's pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.

For instance, Sephiroth kills Aeris from behind, flys away when danger is near (Cloud), and always manipulates Cloud to do his dirty work. If you ask me, that sounds kind of cowardish.

Kefka wouldn't kill Aeris from behind. He would do it so that she could see him deliver the finishing blow. Then, knowing that her death is not good enough, he would stand over the body and laugh *grr*, and then slice her head off. And he wouldn't run away from the scene of the crime either.

Sephiroth is a boring and flat character. He never scared me with anything he did. His atmosphere never drove me to hate him, like villians are supposed to do. I don't see what is so special about Sephiroth? His Masamune?

If you think Sephiroth is the best Final Fantasy villian ever, you need to play, preferably, FFVI again. Sephiroth is really one-dimensional, in the sense that he basically had only one goal.

Also, he did some irrelevant actions during the game.

Why was he goofing and messing around at the Gold Saucer?

He did kill Aeris, but he was a coward when he did it.

Maybe the most important thing, is that he was basically sleeping throughout most of the game. Then, near the end, he wakes up, and grows a wing and halo?

Sephiroth is not that cool.

Rufus

I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus's father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn't add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can't be stopped.

Zack

And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don't remember about the man in the pipe at all. It's only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don't know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn't.

Mini-Games

I found the Mini-Games to be entertaining, for about a minute. The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to. Helping a Moogle have sex with another Moogle has got to be the most bizarre mini-game to date. Arm Wresting, Basketball, Kick-Boxing? Yes, there are a variety of mini-games in FFVII, but there is no big reward for them. With Blitzball in FFX, you received a lot better rewards for winning matches and scoring goals.

Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don't feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren't mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?

What do you get for getting a Moogle laid?

30 points.

Now <B>this</B> is what you call sticking up for what you believe in.

FFVII Fanboys-7 (posts-4)
FFVII Haters-23 (posts-5)

Ok first of all whether or not a game is easy all depends on you the player you dont have to get to lvl 99 you dont have to get KOTR you dont have to get ultimate weapons and limit breaks you dont have to master your materia so if you dont do these things the game is VERY HARD it all just depends on what you do. so dont blame the game for being easy blame yourself becuase you could have made it harder for yourseld you just decided to go the easy way out.

And you say once Aeris died the characters and you know exactly whats coming next. Heres what i say to that are you and the characters psychic NO. all they know at this point is Sephioth=Bad We=Good so lets go kill him they know nothing else. they and you the player know nothing of the weapons the crater and cloud going loopy and getting lost in the lifestream god you dont even know about holy and that the white orb aeris dropped was the white materia. there is still pleanty to figure out at this point.

And when you complain about not being able to physically attack with a limit break this is just the game being hard and challenging and telling you to be creative there are pleanty of other things to do besides physically attack and use magic. theres deathblow, manipulate, god u can just not use that character or RUN AWAY FOR GODS SAKE!!

And with breeding chocobos and gold saucer thats just something for you to do for fun when you get bored with the story and battles. its so you can do something else for a bit.

The ending isnt that bad becuz the game has given you enough information for you to come up with your own theories. and when it shows midgar 500 years later it is showing you that the wound of the planet has healed. look at it this way holy originally is helping meteor becuase the planet is like midgar is my wound and the humans that infest it are the cuase for the wound so i will destroy the cuase so it will never happen again then aeris who is in the lifestream is like wait these are my friends yes they can be bad but give them a chance so she calls upon the lifestream to destroy meteor and save the human race then 500 years later it shows you the wound is healed and the human race has learned its lesson and is not sucking the planets life away anymore. see what a little thought can do.

And when you say they didnt have enough info on the nonimportant characters all i have to say is you cant tell everyones story at once and if they did it would be too much at once. they give you enough info to make theories and for you to understand things.

When you complain about how materia takes away from you hp well master it and it wont but like i said you dont have to if you want a challenge. But that is part of beating the game becuase i see beating a game as completing everything possible. Materia is part of the challenge of the game you're just trying to take it away. if you take away the hp reduction but still have the spells and such then materia is just a powerful weapon the double sided sword is a good thing becuase you are sacrificing your life to use materia which makes it challenging if you took away the hp reduction then your just making the game easier which you obviosly hate.

And when you said this "For instance, Sephiroth kills Aeris from behind, flys away when danger is near (Cloud), and always manipulates Cloud to do his dirty work. If you ask me, that sounds kind of cowardish." all i have to say is wow you just contridcited youself in a run on sentence congratss :) It takes a real IDIOT to do that. the reason i say this is becuase if sephiroth can manipulate cloud THEN WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THE DANGER!! and its not cowardice to use all your resources to kill someone. and finally thats not sephiroth its jenova becuz sephiroth is frozen in the crater and she doesnt run away she says things and then leaves part of herself behind to destroy them while goes to do other things maybe if you played the game a second time you'd catch these things.

FFVII Fanboys-9 (posts-5)
FFVII Haters-23 (posts-5)

i think what i said deserves more than 2 points becuase i just countered all of what smokey said.

Ok first of all whether or not a game is easy all depends on you the player you dont have to get to lvl 99 you dont have to get KOTR you dont have to get ultimate weapons and limit breaks you dont have to master your materia so if you dont do these things the game is VERY HARD it all just depends on what you do. so dont blame the game for being easy blame yourself becuase you could have made it harder for yourseld you just decided to go the easy way out.

just stating opinions amongst urselves about the difficulty of the game

running away is cowardice my young fighter!

And you say once Aeris died the characters and you know exactly whats coming next. Heres what i say to that are you and the characters psychic NO. all they know at this point is Sephioth=Bad We=Good so lets go kill him they know nothing else. they and you the player know nothing of the weapons the crater and cloud going loopy and getting lost in the lifestream god you dont even know about holy and that the white orb aeris dropped was the white materia. there is still pleanty to figure out at this point.


they already knew they had to stop him from summoning meteor, which was the main idea of stopping him, that and getting revenge, both things that were layed out by this point.

she didnt run away she split into two things one was left to fight while the other went to the crater and i said they dont know about holy and that its been summoned i didnt say anything about meteor you are putting words in my mouth and the difficulty of a game is determined by the one who plays it

And when you complain about not being able to physically attack with a limit break this is just the game being hard and challenging and telling you to be creative there are pleanty of other things to do besides physically attack and use magic. theres deathblow, manipulate, god u can just not use that character or RUN AWAY FOR GODS SAKE!!



point for being creative enough to contradict them saying the game is too easy yet saying the materia is bad because it makes them weaker(and essentially harder)

i think what i said deserves more than 2 points becuase i just countered all of what smokey said.
no, I wouldn't call that countering, I would call that fumbling...

The ending isnt that bad becuz the game has given you enough information for you to come up with your own theories. and when it shows midgar 500 years later it is showing you that the wound of the planet has healed. look at it this way holy originally is helping meteor becuase the planet is like midgar is my wound and the humans that infest it are the cuase for the wound so i will destroy the cuase so it will never happen again then aeris who is in the lifestream is like wait these are my friends yes they can be bad but give them a chance so she calls upon the lifestream to destroy meteor and save the human race then 500 years later it shows you the wound is healed and the human race has learned its lesson and is not sucking the planets life away anymore. see what a little thought can do.

point for the planet surviving metior and holy

the rest of hte post is based primarily on opinions, so no more points

I think this debate is over cause we are repeating ourselves now.

i wasnt saying those things werent layed out i was simply saying there are still more suprises in store, when you dont want to use a limit or magic you should get creative and use other techniques and i never said it was hard or easy i said it was determined by the player i never said materia was bad smokey did we jsut said he was complaining about a challenging aspect of the game.

HELL THIS ENTIRE STUPID THREAD IS OPIINON WHETHER THE GAME IS GOOD OR NOT IS FREAKKIN OPINION SO IF YOU DON"T COUNT OPINION INTO THIS FOR ONE DAMN MINUTE THEN DON"T FUCKING POST!

she didnt run away she split into two things one was left to fight while the other went to the crater and i said they dont know about holy and that its been summoned i didnt say anything about meteor you are putting words in my mouth and the difficulty of a game is determined by the one who plays it

ok....Chorns, or anyone else. Did Cloud and the group know of sephiroth's plans to summon meteor by the end of disk 1? I'll tell you what, if someone else will confirm it, cause i haven't played the game in a few months so its possible i could be wrong, so if others will tell me they didnt' know about meteor by then, you'll get another point

YOU"RE PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH I SAID NOTHING ABOUT THEM NOT KNOWING ABOUT METEOR I SAID THEY DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE WHITE MATERIA YOU IDIOT

Chorns argument can be considered a repetive statemtents with different supporting facts... so sometimes arguments are repetivive...

all they know at this point is Sephioth=Bad We=Good so lets go kill him they know nothing else.


and maybe u should stop resorting to name calling just becuase u didn't get the points u thought u would for ur post.

read on idiot and it is explained

maybe you should stop taking things out of context

read on idiot and it is explained

maybe you should stop taking things out of context

oh i read, and theres nothing there about meteor, them knowing or not, but when you generalize saying they ONLY know that he=bad, then it will be generalized that they DONT know anything that wasn't mentioned, like meteor, therefore, why your post is worth 2 points

ok you are assuming things and all i have to say about assuming things is "When you assume thing.... you are making an "ass" out of "u" and "me" ... hey for someone that "ass""u""me" things, stop.... cause I hate being an ass." and obviously it is the fact he has killed aerith and the FACT HE IS SUMMONING meteor that makes him bad

also you're just going anal over this one thing that your missing the entire point of that paragraph. the point is that there is still plenty to figure out not all the little details also i didnt put in all the details for the sake of keeping it short

and at this point i have more respect for prak becuase he unlike you two actually looks at and analysizes the entire thing and will say ok i have to say this fact is good or this fact isnt good becuase... you guys just rip things apart and take things out of context and dont look at the entire thing to get the entire meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
And you say once Aeris died the characters and you know exactly whats coming next. Heres what i say to that are you and the characters psychic NO. all they know at this point is Sephioth=Bad We=Good so lets go kill him they know nothing else. they and you the player know nothing of the weapons the crater and cloud going loopy and getting lost in the lifestream god you dont even know about holy and that the white orb aeris dropped was the white materia. there is still pleanty to figure out at this point.

Quote: By omnislash
they already knew they had to stop him from summoning meteor, which was the main idea of stopping him, that and getting revenge, both things that were layed out by this point.

how is what i said and opinion that is a fact becuase a games difficulty is all determined by how you play it plus i never said i think or i believe in it to make it an opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
And when you complain about not being able to physically attack with a limit break this is just the game being hard and challenging and telling you to be creative there are pleanty of other things to do besides physically attack and use magic. theres deathblow, manipulate, god u can just not use that character or RUN AWAY FOR GODS SAKE!!

Quote: By Omnislash
point for being creative enough to contradict them saying the game is too easy yet saying the materia is bad because it makes them weaker(and essentially harder)

how does this make any sense and what does it have to do with what you quoted?

How are we taking things out of context?? Please explain yourself before you ramble anymore...

for one thing your quoting me and saying things that have nothing to do with the quote and putting words in my mouth. and some of the things you attacked at were explained later on.

Dude, take a chill pill and lay off alright?? It's only a debate, it's not like we are at war or anything...

but if you quote someone at least say something that relates to the quote not meaningless shit.

and you apparently dont know what to say cuz now ur rambling

If you can find a quote of mine that you didn't alter at all that shows that I did that, then I will agree with you on that...but I don't think I did...and if you think I did, you might have misinterpreted what I said...but I honestly can't really remember that well...only today's and last night's discussion...

i may not have meant you personally chorns but i meant you and omnislash in general cuz he did it a lot back there sorry if it offended you i should have wrote you guys not you

ok.

i think its safe to say this argument is begining to reach a stalemate

really?

well think about it for every point one side makes the other just counterpoints it even if tis with nonsense which both sides a quilty for and now were just starting to repeat ourselves.

I guess...

each side now has equally convincing points and weve covered almost everything there is so i think its just safe to say both sides are equal.

But you guys gotta agree that the fans sound more like, well, rabid fans...

some are but some arent

not the way I see it, but whatever...

and just for the sake a being funny rabid just means afraid of water

it does?? well this is what the dictionary says: rabid adj. 1.irrationally extreme in opinion or practice. 2.furious or raging:violently tense. 3.affected with or pertaining to rabbies.
sorry man, I don't see anything about being afraid of water in the dictionary...

yes

rabies translates into hydrophobia fear of water. when it attacks the brain for some reason it makes the victim afraid of water this is why you never see a dog with rabies near a pool or lake. and rabid is just relating to rabies so it means fear of water

look at what rabies does

well it does have more than one meaning, and I was talking about the first description that the dictionary gave.

ok it happens

i think its safe to say this argument is begining to reach a stalemate

stalemate?...
FFVII Fanboys-9 (posts-5)
FFVII Haters-23 (posts-5)

really though, its far from a stalemate. Prak pretty much rips apart anything you or someone else comes up with. i'm not saying their can't be solid arguments made for the game, but there are very few as compared to mainly solid ones against it.


and obviously it is the fact he has killed aerith and the FACT HE IS SUMMONING meteor that makes him bad

also i didnt put in all the details for the sake of keeping it short




thats your problem right there. you don't put in all the details to keep it short. when your trying to debate something, you dont wanna skip details to keep it short, you include as much detail as possible to solidify your examples. like you said all they know about him is he=bad and thats all they know, which is why i mention meteor, cause i thought they already knew about it by then, but i wasn't 100% sure if they did, so i asked to make sure. when u say all they know is he=bad, you have to use the details, he=bad cause he killed aeris and wanted to summon meteor ect.

so yea i assumed your saying they dont know about meteor yet because of how u worded it saying that was all they knew about him. yea i assume things all the time and can tend to misread things at times, but when your going against people that know how to debate like prak, you can't just ignore mentioning details like that, because otherwise you get people like me who will assume because u didn't present all of the evidence in ur argument

oh shut up your just trying to get it going again and your score sucks cuz u dont read anything and there are no facts or solid points becuase all of this is opinion and the way it is looked at and it is a stale mate becuase all the points have been covered and anything one side says will be easily countered by the other the debate is pretty much over it was over when i countered smokey becuase i gave examples and points that countered all of his points and i proved it all depended on how you looked at it. you just looked for one detail that you could exploit and you did and its not that big of a deal becuase everyone else knew what i meant all i was trying to say is that there is more to be discovered. THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS AN OPINION THERE ARE NO FACTS TO PROVE ANY SIDES IT IS AN EVEN STALEMATE BECUASE EACH SIDE HAS EQUALLY CONVINCING POINTS TO COUNTER ONE ANOTHER.

oh shut up your just trying to get it going again and your score sucks cuz u dont read anything and there are no facts or solid points becuase all of this is opinion and the way it is looked at and it is a stale mate becuase all the points have been covered and anything one side says will be easily countered by the other the debate is pretty much over it was over when i countered smokey becuase i gave examples and points that countered all of his points and i proved it all depended on how you looked at it. you just looked for one detail that you could exploit and you did and its not that big of a deal becuase everyone else knew what i meant all i was trying to say is that there is more to be discovered. THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS AN OPINION THERE ARE NO FACTS TO PROVE ANY SIDES IT IS AN EVEN STALEMATE BECUASE EACH SIDE HAS EQUALLY CONVINCING POINTS TO COUNTER ONE ANOTHER.

thats where hte problem lies. both sides dont' have equally convincing arguments. most people will agree that prak's side presents a much stronger argument. and as far as the points go, even chorns said i was being way to generous with giving ur side more points than you deserved

and he just said i guess your right it is a stalemate your just trying to burn wood on a fire that has gone out.

I was too generous...I'm not very good at debates...


and he just said i guess your right it is a stalemate your just trying to burn wood on a fire that has gone out.
Look at what I wrote, I said I'm not that good at debates...

there is nothing left to debate everythings been covered adn both sides have presented equally convining points just niether want to admit it.

are you talking to me or him chorns

There's nothing really to admit...

I guess...

i'm guessing the . . . was supposed to mean you don't really agree?

i seriously think hes trying to spark something

I was hesitant, and now I don't agree. That's not what the "..." at the end of my sentences usually mean though.

what else is there to debate that hasent been brought up yet and we have countered each other evenly on almost everything.

does anyone else agree

you are partially correct, but it hasn't ever been equal, we've been bashing you...

yeah but the points we present anymore are equally convincing to both sides that it has simply come to a stalemate becuase now theres nothing new to bring up so everyone now is just going to point and counter point each other over the same things. the point you guys had on the story being to predictable i countered and omnislash just picked at one detail but everyone else understood that i was just saying there is still plenty to discover in the story, you guys siad it was too easy and i countered by saying it all depends on how you play it which is completely true,it just goes on and on so it is a stalemate anymore.

The question isn't whether you countered or not. It's whether your counter-argument was stronger. The concensus says it was not.

A debate doesn't go on til one side gives up or can't say anything else, you know. Victory is determined by the observers, so you - being a participant - cannot possibly claim a stalemate. To do so shows both extreme arrogance and desperation.

Prak's right, I shouldn't have said those things about bashing you...

The question isn't whether you countered or not. It's whether your counter-argument was stronger. The concensus says it was not.

A debate doesn't go on til one side gives up or can't say anything else, you know. Victory is determined by the observers, so you - being a participant - cannot possibly claim a stalemate. To do so shows both extreme arrogance and desperation.


thats exactly what i've been wanting to say. trekki seems to think taht just because he countered at all taht hes automatically equal, when in reality, his, along with most of the fanboy counters are very weak, making things very far from a stalemate

tell me why what i said in response to what smokey is weak. all you found was one little detail and didnt even look to see the point i was trying to prove.

The game was good because of the chars, storyline, and boss and monster design

*sigh* You really wanna know what was weak in your reply to Smokey? Okay...

First, you stated that the game being too easy is the fault of the player. That's ridiculous. It isn't the responsibility of a player to make sure they get challenged by the game.

Second, you used relatively minor plot developments as a basis for the story being unpredictable. They proved to be irrelevant because the story still progressed along the same basic path despite them. Your outlook on the game's events does not shift one iota because of them.

Third, all you had to say in defense of the limit system was, "You can do something else." You offered no sensible justification for the inconvenience or the mockery of simple logistics.

Fourth, all you said about the minigames was that it a bit of fun stuff on the side and nothing more. You did not address what we believe to be the abysmal quality of those minigames and their lack of any suitable reward for the time you invest in them.

Fifth, I've said it before and I'll say it again: A good story completes itself. An incomplete ending is inexcusable in a stand-alone game, which we all know FFVII was meant to be. You say it allows you to make up your own theories. We say Square copped out of giving a real ending and your interpretation excuse is just a flimsy cover for what you know in your hearts to be a huge failing in the game.

Sixth, what's wrong with more info on the supporting characters? Story depth was a good thing last time I checked. It wouldn't have detracted from the game in any way. And again, I assert that leaving that much open for theorizing was a massive failure.

Seventh, you included speculation in your assessment of Aerith's death. There is no evidence other than pure conjecture of what truly killed her. You say it was Jenova that did it, not Sephiroth? How can you tell?


EDIT: BizarroSephiroth, it looks like you TOTALLY missed the whole point here. We're debating the game's quality.

tell me why what i said in response to what smokey is weak. all you found was one little detail and didnt even look to see the point i was trying to prove.

ok


*sigh* You really wanna know what was weak in your reply to Smokey? Okay...

First, you stated that the game being too easy is the fault of the player. That's ridiculous. It isn't the responsibility of a player to make sure they get challenged by the game.

Second, you used relatively minor plot developments as a basis for the story being unpredictable. They proved to be irrelevant because the story still progressed along the same basic path despite them. Your outlook on the game's events does not shift one iota because of them.

Third, all you had to say in defense of the limit system was, "You can do something else." You offered no sensible justification for the inconvenience or the mockery of simple logistics.

Fourth, all you said about the minigames was that it a bit of fun stuff on the side and nothing more. You did not address what we believe to be the abysmal quality of those minigames and their lack of any suitable reward for the time you invest in them.

Fifth, I've said it before and I'll say it again: A good story completes itself. An incomplete ending is inexcusable in a stand-alone game, which we all know FFVII was meant to be. You say it allows you to make up your own theories. We say Square copped out of giving a real ending and your interpretation excuse is just a flimsy cover for what you know in your hearts to be a huge failing in the game.

Sixth, what's wrong with more info on the supporting characters? Story depth was a good thing last time I checked. It wouldn't have detracted from the game in any way. And again, I assert that leaving that much open for theorizing was a massive failure.

Seventh, you included speculation in your assessment of Aerith's death. There is no evidence other than pure conjecture of what truly killed her. You say it was Jenova that did it, not Sephiroth? How can you tell?


EDIT: BizarroSephiroth, it looks like you TOTALLY missed the whole point here. We're debating the game's quality.

First of all a games difficulty is determined by the player becuase anyone can make any game extremely easy or extremely hard. Yes the designers should make it challenging but in the battles you determine their difficulty. this was the same in all previous ffs becuase the enemies didnt level up with your characters this didnt come until 8. so you could easily beat any boss by massive leveling therefore making the game easier. now you can do that or you can make it more challenging by not leveling up fast. so see you do determine the difficulty.

Now how are the weapons, learning about holy, and that aeris has summoned holy minor plot developments. These are all discovered after aeris' death. all they know about holy and meteor is that meteor is summoned and will kill the planet and that a thing called the white materia will stop it. and the weapons HELLO YOU HAVE TO DEFEAT THEM TO PROGRESS THROUGH THE STORY!!!! if they werent in there then when you get to the crater the first time it would end there cuz ud kill sephiroth right then and there.

The minigames were fun and they were mirrored of of fun games at the time. The motorcycle game-Road Rash Snowboarding-Cool Boarders and battle square is there for you to test your limits. and the rewards arent ok they're great think final attack- most helpful materia in the game Omnislash- Clouds best limit break yes you dont need them to win but they are great and worth the effort.

Not all good stories complete themselves for example The Lady, and the Tiger.... what I would like to call "The Ultimate Cliffhanger." If you haven't read it I would suggest you do. Extremely powerful. It basically leaves you wondering if the guy gets kills or if he weds. Now, you say a good story completes itself. But this story doesn't... it leaves you wondering. Now, this alone may not sway you, but I would like to inform you that the story was extremely popular, not only because of the cliff hanger... but because it was extremely well-told and had a strong impact. I believe that Final Fantasy relates to this story. Sure... it doesn't have as deep a meaning as The Lady and the Tiger, but it does leave you wondering what happens. A good story compeltes itself. Pfftt.... in your dreams. Tell that to many japnese people and they'll laugh at you look at some of the major anime pictures and you'll see that it leaves you wondering what happened.

Hmm... honestly I think all the characters had enough personality that they seemed to be backed up fairly well...Barrett in the beginning only sought revenge against ShinRa for his hometown... but as the story progressed he moved from anger to compassion to fight for marelene instead of fighting for revenge, Tifa.... welll........ she kinda weird the best I can come up with is that they just fought together to begin with.. but as the story progessed she didn't want to see Cloud fight alone... so she always wanted to help him.... This was displayed by Cloud's flashback after he fell into the Mako, how she helped him find himself. I think she didn't want him to be alone. Yuffie....at first you see her as some punk-thief... but then you start to realize the true reasons that Yuffie fights it regain the importance of her village, she wants to bring it back up... Vincent... has issues he was once a Turk... loved a woman...... she dumped him... gave birth to the ultimate evil..... and he regrets thigns...He kept to himself most of the game... so we never learn a lot about him. Cait Sith is clearly a spy to begin with, but then he realizes what ShinRa is doing and decides that the best course of action would to help Cloud and company You could even consider him a "mini-hero" heros go through a "fake death" where they are reborn stronger than before he even sacrificed himself for them.. Cid begins by having an issue with shera and want to be in space only to find when he really gets there its not that great and when he is leaving the rocket he finds out that shera was right and respects her. Aeris... well... she starts off as a flower girl in a church without much of a life.... only know a little bit about her past... but she becomes a major player... that well dies... but again "fake-death" plays a roll, while she is not revived in a tangible form, she takes part in the life-stream and "saved the earth from disaster"(If you believe that is what the ending meant) She is continually a sign of hope and life in the story. and red13 He holds a grudge against his father.. and hates him for it... but after he learns of his father sacrifice he's trust is renewed and he fights willing to sacrifice himself for his friends and family. and enough has been said about cloud already so im not going to bother. all the characters were developed to the point that anymore development would have been beating the point to death. adn the other cahracters u guys talk about are not that important.

Now we know after the crater incident where cloud gives sephiroth the black materia that it couldnt have been sephiroth who killed aeris the only other option is jenova whom sephiroth set free 5 years ago in Nibelhiem. but then cloud killed him so people were pissed so they made a new one with jenova cells that they cacooned in the crater so it was the essence of sephiroth that killed her since he can control jenova so jeonva looking like sephiroth killed aeris then left behind jenova life while jenova death left. this is all in the game you just have to look for it and piece it together.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

ok this is what i dont get
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
tell me why what i said in response to what smokey is weak. all you found was one little detail and didnt even look to see the point i was trying to prove.


ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prak
*sigh* You really wanna know what was weak in your reply to Smokey? Okay...

First, you stated that the game being too easy is the fault of the player. That's ridiculous. It isn't the responsibility of a player to make sure they get challenged by the game.

Second, you used relatively minor plot developments as a basis for the story being unpredictable. They proved to be irrelevant because the story still progressed along the same basic path despite them. Your outlook on the game's events does not shift one iota because of them.

Third, all you had to say in defense of the limit system was, "You can do something else." You offered no sensible justification for the inconvenience or the mockery of simple logistics.

Fourth, all you said about the minigames was that it a bit of fun stuff on the side and nothing more. You did not address what we believe to be the abysmal quality of those minigames and their lack of any suitable reward for the time you invest in them.

Fifth, I've said it before and I'll say it again: A good story completes itself. An incomplete ending is inexcusable in a stand-alone game, which we all know FFVII was meant to be. You say it allows you to make up your own theories. We say Square copped out of giving a real ending and your interpretation excuse is just a flimsy cover for what you know in your hearts to be a huge failing in the game.

Sixth, what's wrong with more info on the supporting characters? Story depth was a good thing last time I checked. It wouldn't have detracted from the game in any way. And again, I assert that leaving that much open for theorizing was a massive failure.

Seventh, you included speculation in your assessment of Aerith's death. There is no evidence other than pure conjecture of what truly killed her. You say it was Jenova that did it, not Sephiroth? How can you tell?


EDIT: BizarroSephiroth, it looks like you TOTALLY missed the whole point here. We're debating the game's quality.

ok omnislash what was the point of posting this it has nothing to do with anything stop posting this nonsense. god omnislash 163 posts of meaningless shit.

Wow, an hour of silence thats gotta be a first.

TrekkiesUnite, I think you are the very essence of what Rabid Monkey was trying to show with his thread. What I mean is that FF7 is an extremely overrated game. Whether it's good or bad, you have proven that. Your behavior is totally ridiculous. Typing in all caps and saying your opponents are just saying opinions when they quite clearly aren't shows just what I said. You make FF7 out to be a much better game than it is. In the subjective point from which I looked, FF7 was my favorite of the FF games, and for a time I thought it was the best. That was immediately changed when I read Rabid Monkey's first post. FF7 is still my favorite of the FFs, but it is NOT the best. I would say that the good things about it make it a somewhat good game, but I really don't have the heart to try to support that with facts because I can't stand associating myself with the likes of you. FFIV and FFVI were better games overall because Square went all out for money when they made FFVII. They made the game easier so that it would sell better. They made the plot more simple so that people who don't get particularly involved in video games would be able to understand it. This detracted from the game's quality. Every single example needed to support what I have just said is in a previous post by Rabid Monkey, Smokey, or Prak. I have only one question for you: Did you play FF1-6?

yes i have played 1-6 not beaten them but im about halfway through 1 and 5 and im about a fourth through the rest and honestly their good but not as good as 7.

and i have given examples from the game to support my points you just dont want to accept that the fans have equally convincing points as the haters. and i didnt say my opponents were the only ones whos facts were opinions i said that EVERYBODYS facts are opinions. the reason i type things in caps is to emphasize my points. and like i said before creators dont make games easy or hard players make games easy or hard. the only reason people complain about why the battles in 7 are easy is becuz they went and massivly leveled up so it would be easier you can do the same thing in the previous ff games that you claim are harder for example in 5 i sat in an area for a month and did nothing but level up and now all my characters are level 99 and the game is pathetically easy now. so 7 is hard and easy it all depends on who is playing it and what level there party is at. and finally what have i done that prak and rabid monkey and chorns havent i have stated points and presented convincing evidence from the game to back it up i have just done it in a more emotional way. infact thats why you guys come down on the fans b/c thier arguments are full of pathos meaning emotional. and whats so bad about being more emotional in our arguments? it just means we believe more strongly in our beleifs and if you dont beleive me with this look at mark antony's speech in shakespears Julius Ceasar.

and i have given examples from the game to support my points you just dont want to accept that the fans have equally convincing points as the haters.


hahahahahahaha... liar... hahahahahaha

You got your ass kicked in every pathetic attempt you made to prove VII was the greatest FF.

sorry but our points were much more convincing than yours, especially because ours' did not sound like fanboys' going on about how great a game is.

TrekkiesUnite, I think you are the very essence of what Rabid Monkey was trying to show with his thread. What I mean is that FF7 is an extremely overrated game. Whether it's good or bad, you have proven that. Your behavior is totally ridiculous. Typing in all caps and saying your opponents are just saying opinions when they quite clearly aren't shows just what I said. You make FF7 out to be a much better game than it is.

exactly.....but i'm the one with with all meaningless posts. I love how he has to resort to personal insults becuase he gets called on his weak arguments

yes i have played 1-6 not beaten them but im about halfway through 1 and 5 and im about a fourth through the rest and honestly their good but not as good as 7.

and i have given examples from the game to support my points you just dont want to accept that the fans have equally convincing points as the haters. and i didnt say my opponents were the only ones whos facts were opinions i said that EVERYBODYS facts are opinions. the reason i type things in caps is to emphasize my points. and like i said before creators dont make games easy or hard players make games easy or hard. the only reason people complain about why the battles in 7 are easy is becuz they went and massivly leveled up so it would be easier you can do the same thing in the previous ff games that you claim are harder for example in 5 i sat in an area for a month and did nothing but level up and now all my characters are level 99 and the game is pathetically easy now. so 7 is hard and easy it all depends on who is playing it and what level there party is at. and finally what have i done that prak and rabid monkey and chorns havent i have stated points and presented convincing evidence from the game to back it up i have just done it in a more emotional way. infact thats why you guys come down on the fans b/c thier arguments are full of pathos meaning emotional. and whats so bad about being more emotional in our arguments? it just means we believe more strongly in our beleifs and if you dont beleive me with this look at mark antony's speech in shakespears Julius Ceasar.
Your strong points should emphasize themselves, FFVII is super ultra easy if you get all the characters up to level 99!! In fact any Final Fantasy that uses the same leveling up system that FFVII does will be easy at level 99!! What we are saying is that FFVII can be easy to beat at level 50 or 60!! Hell, first time I ever played through the game I beat it with Cloud at level 43 without the Ultima Weapon and it was still pretty damn easy!! Don't think it isn't cause you would be wrong!! I know that for a fact!! When we are less emotional I think we can sort out fact from opinion better.

Yep, not only is he a bad debater, but a poor loser as well.

But just to retain my credibility, I'll answer his arguments.

1: It is not a gamer's responsibility to make a game challenging. Period. The game is as hard as the developers made it. And they made it easy.

2: The plot developments you mentioned are minor because they do not change the player's outlook on the game. Sephiroth and Shinra are still bad. Mako is still good, as is anyone trying to preserve it. You merely look at the other stuff and think, "Obstacle on the path. Must defeat."

3: I have previously stated that Battle Square was the only worthwhile minigame. The others are garbage because they offer no decent rewards for the time you invest in them. If I wanted a change of pace from the rest of the game, I'd just put in another game that would be more fun than the minigames.

4: The Lady and the Tiger makes a poor counterargument because it was meaningful. There was no meaning in the end of FFVII, just a gaping lack of it, which could only be filled by personal interpretations. And as for bad anime endings, I always get pissed off at those also.

5: You pointed out the individual stories for all the characters, but what you failed to make mention of was that they had nothing else. One quick side (or small segment of the main path) trip told all that the game had to offer. Their limited development was forced on you all at once. After that, their tales faded into the background, leaving too many unanswered questions.

6: Your analysis of the Jenova/Sephiroth relationship is, I say again, based largely on speculation and interpretation. There is no factual evidence that clearly defines what happened, no matter how deep you dig.

A quick side note: I received an interesting PM today from Cid Highwind. All he said was that I should change my name from Prak to Prick. I wonder if it had anything to do with this. I couldn't tell because he included no context, just a lame-ass insult.

Seventh, you included speculation in your assessment of Aerith's death. There is no evidence other than pure conjecture of what truly killed her. You say it was Jenova that did it, not Sephiroth? How can you tell?



If you listen to Sephiroth on the Path to the Northern Crater he clearly states that "the ability to change one's looks & voice is the will of Jenova"

Also about the white materia, We are never certain as to what it does, I'm not even certain Aeris knows. I quote

Cloud: Good for nothin'? You probably just don't know how to use it...
Aeris: [shakes head] No, I do, It just doesn't do anything...

If you listen to Sephiroth on the Path to the Northern Crater he clearly states that "the ability to change one's looks & voice is the will of Jenova"

Which was said in relation to Cloud, not Sephiroth.


Also about the white materia, We are never certain as to what it does, I'm not even certain Aeris knows. I quote

Cloud: Good for nothin'? You probably just don't know how to use it...
Aeris: [shakes head] No, I do, It just doesn't do anything...

Okay. What's the point to that? You just made a dot, but another dot is needed to form a line.

sorry, earlier in the thread (bout 2 pages back) some one mentioned about the Black/white materia, (cant remember the details and can't be bothered to check) and what it was supposed to do.

oh and the dot thing is the end of Aeris's speach Iirc

Yes it was said in reference to Cloud, but thats no reason to say that Jenova itself couldn't take on the form and personality of Sephiroth.

sorry, earlier in the thread (bout 2 pages back) some one mentioned about the Black/white materia, (cant remember the details and can't be bothered to check) and what it was supposed to do.

oh and the dot thing is the end of Aeris's speach Iirc

Yes it was said in reference to Cloud, but thats no reason to say that Jenova itself couldn't take on the form and personality of Sephiroth.
But, it was never said that Jenova itself could do that, right

The way some people explain what happens is what makes things so confusing.

The way some people explain what happens is what makes things so confusing.
yep, and the lack of explaining things too...

I don't like ti when people think they know something and they don't but they give advice any way...Thats why I don't really like to ask advice.

wha??

I don't like it when people try to give advice when they have no clue what they are talking about (you prolly think this has nothing to do with the post huh? well if people don't explain well enough, people do the wrong thing--ok i ges that has nothing to do with the post.....heh *shrugs*)

Umm okay.

ok prak now your just saying im wrong for the sake of saying im wrong and becuase you dont want to accept that my points and any other fans are just as convincing as yours and notice how im saying ponts NOT facts becuase all of these are opinions and points were making on those opinions there are NO facts in this argue meant it is all opinionated.

And ive said it once and ill say it agian any game can be made hard depending on how you play it. for example some people who play mario 3 find it extremely hard and trust me i know cuz my cousins and my friends are some of them while some people find it extremely easy becuase they know secrets and techniques that make it easy for them. the same is true about ff7. if you dont know a pheonix down will 1 hit kill an undead enemy than undead enemies and bosses may be hard for you, if you dont know about certain spells summons and techniques then some boss battles may be extremely hard for you example: emerald weapon can be extremely hard even if you have KOTR and omnislash and ultimate weapons becuase its attacks can kill even lvl 99 characters in one hit. now if youtyr kotr and limit breaks and all those things it can still be hard, but if all your characters can mime than this battle is extremely easy becuase you can just have one person summon KOTR and have everyone else mime it and in no time emerald weapon will fall. so see it all depends on how the player plays it that determine if a game is easy or not.

The only possible explanation for who killed aeris is that it was Jenova. this is becuase sephiroth is cacooned in the crater and jenova can take any form it pleases. so to make sure holy wasnt summoned and sephiroth could be awakened jenova killed aeris to stop holy while taking the form of sephiroth so it would lure cloud and the others to the crater. so it couldnt possibly be the real sephiroth that killed aeris becuase it is physically impossible for a person to be two places at once. the real sephiroth doesnt come into the picture until after cloud awakens him with the balck materia.
like i said all this is in the game you just have to look for it and piece it together.

I'd have to say that The Lady, and the Tiger makes the perfect counter-argument. It gives you enough information that you can draw your own conclusion leaving you with a meaningful experience of what you feel at the end.
Final Fantasy VII is just like this. The whole entire game is centered around life or Mako, and death, Midgar. You could even consider these the two doors that the man were forced to chose from. The game builds and builds on this giving you information to help you make your final decision. So finally the ending comes, and it leaves you hanging. To whether or not the earth chose Life or Death and it is up for you to decide.... but wait.... they leave a little special clip at the end... the scene with Nanaki that can help sway your decision. In all honestly, Final Fantasy VII's ending was brilliant. And to say that The Lady and the Tiger and Final Fantasy VII are nothing alike is just a horrible comparison. Clearly, two doors are in both, and only one can be chosen. These both have great impacts on your opinion of the world. I don't know how you can say Final Fantasy VII has no meaning.... When it carries a similar message of Life and Death as The Lady and the Tiger. Yet you say The Lady, and the Tiger was meaningful.... it just doesn't make sense to me how things that are so similar can be perceived by you as entirely different. I just cannot fathom it, I'm sorry. There are moral issues I haven't even covered here that are centered around this Life and Death theme, that all add to the story and I would be glad to share them with you.

and the plot developments i mentioned do change the characters course, if they didnt learn about holy then they'd have no idea what the hell to do in the meteor, and the weapons maybe dont change their paths but didnt you notice they only attacked when someone was trying to stop meteor? the frist weapon attacked the mako cannon b/c it saw it as a threat to destroy meteor, diamond attacked when the makko cannon was fired at the crater, ultima weapon attacked mideel becuase cloud was there and it knew cloud was a threat to the crater and later returned for an attack after the rocket was fired at meteor and emerald weapon is there to stop you from getting the key of the ancients.

the characters are developed they had pesonalities and you knew enough about their pasts to understand thier motives and personalities. any more anlaysis would be overdoing it cuz theres nothing more anyone wants to know avout the main characters in fact the only one whos past you dont fully know is cait sith but you know enough about him to understand his motives and if i remeber correctly isnt cait sith one of the turks. and the other character you want to know about arent main characters and arent in the story enough to even bother telling more about them you know all you need to know about those characters to understand the story and thier motives you cant explain everyones tale just those who are in the story a lot and the people reading/watching/playing the story care most about. for example in "to kill a mockingbird" are the ewells expalined in as much depth as the finches NO are the cunninghams explained in as much depth as the finches NO and is the book frowned upon for poor character development becuase they didnt tell enough about the nonimportant characters NO infact it is praised for its character development becuase you know enough about the main characters and their personality who are the ones you care about most in the story. and in ff7 this is the same you know enough about the main characters, the ones you care about most, and thier personalities to know what they are like and what they would do in certain situations.

and finally putting emotion into ones argument is not a bad thing it is a good thing. it means they are more deeply involved in thier beliefs and can sway a crowd more easily becuase they seem more human and can reach the audiances emotions more easily. while those who are less emotional seem more inhuman to an audiance and causes them to dislike that person more than the emotional one.
this can obviously be seen in many speeches where the a crwod is swayed more towards the emotional one than the less emotional one becuase he seems more human and can reach them better.

ok prak now your just saying im wrong for the sake of saying im wrong and becuase you dont want to accept that my points and any other fans are just as convincing as yours and notice how im saying ponts NOT facts becuase all of these are opinions and points were making on those opinions there are NO facts in this argue meant it is all opinionated.

And ive said it once and ill say it agian any game can be made hard depending on how you play it. for example some people who play mario 3 find it extremely hard and trust me i know cuz my cousins and my friends are some of them while some people find it extremely easy becuase they know secrets and techniques that make it easy for them. the same is true about ff7. if you dont know a pheonix down will 1 hit kill an undead enemy than undead enemies and bosses may be hard for you, if you dont know about certain spells summons and techniques then some boss battles may be extremely hard for you example: emerald weapon can be extremely hard even if you have KOTR and omnislash and ultimate weapons becuase its attacks can kill even lvl 99 characters in one hit. now if youtyr kotr and limit breaks and all those things it can still be hard, but if all your characters can mime than this battle is extremely easy becuase you can just have one person summon KOTR and have everyone else mime it and in no time emerald weapon will fall. so see it all depends on how the player plays it that determine if a game is easy or not.

The only possible explanation for who killed aeris is that it was Jenova. this is becuase sephiroth is cacooned in the crater and jenova can take any form it pleases. so to make sure holy wasnt summoned and sephiroth could be awakened jenova killed aeris to stop holy while taking the form of sephiroth so it would lure cloud and the others to the crater. so it couldnt possibly be the real sephiroth that killed aeris becuase it is physically impossible for a person to be two places at once. the real sephiroth doesnt come into the picture until after cloud awakens him with the balck materia.
like i said all this is in the game you just have to look for it and piece it together.

Now the ending in ff7 was meaningful you just have to think a little on it which is what the creators wanted, they wanted the fans to come up with their own unique solutions you who say it sucks just dont have an imagination to do this. and wheres all the fun if they hand everything to you on a silver platter? then there are no lose end for you to come up with you own theories their are many great movies out there that are like this and no one complains about them.

and the plat developments i mentioned do change the characters course, if they didnt learn about holy then they'd have no idea what the hell to do in the meteor, and the weapons maybe dont change their paths but didnt you notice they only attacked when someone was trying to stop meteor? the frist weapon attacked the mako cannon b/c it saw it as a threat to destroy meteor, diamond attacked when the makko cannon was fired at the crater, ultima weapon attacked mideel becuase cloud was there and it knew cloud was a threat to the crater and later returned for an attack after the rocket was fired at meteor and emerald weapon is there to stop you from getting the key of the ancients.

the characters are developed they had pesonalities and you knew enough about their pasts to understand thier motives and personalities. any more anlaysis would be overdoing it cuz theres nothing more anyone wants to know avout the main characters in fact the only one whos past you dont fully know is cait sith but you know enough about him to understand his motives and if i remeber correctly isnt cait sith one of the turks. and the other character you want to know about arent main characters and arent in the story enough to even bother telling more about them you know all you need to know about those characters to understand the story and thier motives you cant explain everyones tale just those who are in the story a lot and the people reading/watching/playing the story care most about. for example in "to kill a mockingbird" are the ewells expalined in as much depth as the finches NO are the cunninghams explained in as much depth as the finches NO and is the book frowned upon for poor character development becuase they didnt tell enough about the nonimportant characters NO infact it is praised for its character development becuase you know enough about the main characters and their personality who are the ones you care about most in the story. and in ff7 this is the same you know enough about the main characters, the ones you care about most, and thier personalities to know what they are like and what they would do in certain situations.

and finally putting emotion into ones argument is not a bad thing it is a good thing. it means they are more deeply involved in thier beliefs and can sway a crowd more easily becuase they seem more human and can reach the audiances emotions more easily. while those who are less emotional seem more inhuman to an audiance and causes them to dislike that person more than the emotional one.
this can obviously be seen in many speeches where the a crwod is swayed more towards the emotional one than the less emotional one becuase he seems more human and can reach them better.
you do realize that you've been saying the same thing over and over and over pretty much...right?

How can you type so much �O_O?

and you guys havent chorns? and re read my post i edited it

oh and Kemtach2999 thank you for your support.

I don't feel like re reading your post cause it's too damn long, and you are just repeating yourself anyway, so what's the point?? I'm done with this thread, I had fun, but the debate is over. See ya around.

fine if your lazy ill just re post it and like you guys said when i said it was over someone who is in the debate cant say its over or is at a stalemate. remember what prak says... "The debate cannot be settled by the debators it muts be settled by the observers. os its over for u maybe but the entire debate is not.


ok prak now your just saying im wrong for the sake of saying im wrong and becuase you dont want to accept that my points and any other fans are just as convincing as yours and notice how im saying ponts NOT facts becuase all of these are opinions and points were making on those opinions there are NO facts in this argue meant it is all opinionated.

And ive said it once and ill say it agian any game can be made hard depending on how you play it. for example some people who play mario 3 find it extremely hard and trust me i know cuz my cousins and my friends are some of them while some people find it extremely easy becuase they know secrets and techniques that make it easy for them. the same is true about ff7. if you dont know a pheonix down will 1 hit kill an undead enemy than undead enemies and bosses may be hard for you, if you dont know about certain spells summons and techniques then some boss battles may be extremely hard for you example: emerald weapon can be extremely hard even if you have KOTR and omnislash and ultimate weapons becuase its attacks can kill even lvl 99 characters in one hit. now if youtyr kotr and limit breaks and all those things it can still be hard, but if all your characters can mime than this battle is extremely easy becuase you can just have one person summon KOTR and have everyone else mime it and in no time emerald weapon will fall. so see it all depends on how the player plays it that determine if a game is easy or not.

The only possible explanation for who killed aeris is that it was Jenova. this is becuase sephiroth is cacooned in the crater and jenova can take any form it pleases. so to make sure holy wasnt summoned and sephiroth could be awakened jenova killed aeris to stop holy while taking the form of sephiroth so it would lure cloud and the others to the crater. so it couldnt possibly be the real sephiroth that killed aeris becuase it is physically impossible for a person to be two places at once. the real sephiroth doesnt come into the picture until after cloud awakens him with the balck materia.
like i said all this is in the game you just have to look for it and piece it together.

I'd have to say that The Lady, and the Tiger makes the perfect counter-argument. It gives you enough information that you can draw your own conclusion leaving you with a meaningful experience of what you feel at the end.
Final Fantasy VII is just like this. The whole entire game is centered around life or Mako, and death, Midgar. You could even consider these the two doors that the man were forced to chose from. The game builds and builds on this giving you information to help you make your final decision. So finally the ending comes, and it leaves you hanging. To whether or not the earth chose Life or Death and it is up for you to decide.... but wait.... they leave a little special clip at the end... the scene with Nanaki that can help sway your decision. In all honestly, Final Fantasy VII's ending was brilliant. And to say that The Lady and the Tiger and Final Fantasy VII are nothing alike is just a horrible comparison. Clearly, two doors are in both, and only one can be chosen. These both have great impacts on your opinion of the world. I don't know how you can say Final Fantasy VII has no meaning.... When it carries a similar message of Life and Death as The Lady and the Tiger. Yet you say The Lady, and the Tiger was meaningful.... it just doesn't make sense to me how things that are so similar can be perceived by you as entirely different. I just cannot fathom it, I'm sorry. There are moral issues I haven't even covered here that are centered around this Life and Death theme, that all add to the story and I would be glad to share them with you.

and the plot developments i mentioned do change the characters course, if they didnt learn about holy then they'd have no idea what the hell to do in the meteor, and the weapons maybe dont change their paths but didnt you notice they only attacked when someone was trying to stop meteor? the frist weapon attacked the mako cannon b/c it saw it as a threat to destroy meteor, diamond attacked when the makko cannon was fired at the crater, ultima weapon attacked mideel becuase cloud was there and it knew cloud was a threat to the crater and later returned for an attack after the rocket was fired at meteor and emerald weapon is there to stop you from getting the key of the ancients.

the characters are developed they had pesonalities and you knew enough about their pasts to understand thier motives and personalities. any more anlaysis would be overdoing it cuz theres nothing more anyone wants to know avout the main characters in fact the only one whos past you dont fully know is cait sith but you know enough about him to understand his motives and if i remeber correctly isnt cait sith one of the turks. and the other character you want to know about arent main characters and arent in the story enough to even bother telling more about them you know all you need to know about those characters to understand the story and thier motives you cant explain everyones tale just those who are in the story a lot and the people reading/watching/playing the story care most about. for example in "to kill a mockingbird" are the ewells expalined in as much depth as the finches NO are the cunninghams explained in as much depth as the finches NO and is the book frowned upon for poor character development becuase they didnt tell enough about the nonimportant characters NO infact it is praised for its character development becuase you know enough about the main characters and their personality who are the ones you care about most in the story. and in ff7 this is the same you know enough about the main characters, the ones you care about most, and thier personalities to know what they are like and what they would do in certain situations.

and finally putting emotion into ones argument is not a bad thing it is a good thing. it means they are more deeply involved in thier beliefs and can sway a crowd more easily becuase they seem more human and can reach the audiances emotions more easily. while those who are less emotional seem more inhuman to an audiance and causes them to dislike that person more than the emotional one.
this can obviously be seen in many speeches where the a crwod is swayed more towards the emotional one than the less emotional one becuase he seems more human and can reach them better.

and finally putting emotion into ones argument is not a bad thing it is a good thing. it means they are more deeply involved in thier beliefs and can sway a crowd more easily becuase they seem more human and can reach the audiances emotions more easily. while those who are less emotional seem more inhuman to an audiance and causes them to dislike that person more than the emotional one.
this can obviously be seen in many speeches where the a crwod is swayed more towards the emotional one than the less emotional one becuase he seems more human and can reach them better.

yea, being emotional can also cause you to NOT see something negative. whether its ur favorite sports team, tv show, yourself, g/f, your awlays less inclined to see their faults because of your emotional attachment to these things. and Pracks "inhuman" arguments have swayed way more VII fanboys than these "emotional" arguments have swayed VII haters.

prove it many fans dont participate in these things.

infact omnislash you seem very biased towards the haters side and it seems to me it's becuase you dont want to displease the "high and mighty" prak.

Ok first of all whether or not a game is easy all depends on you the player you dont have to get to lvl 99 you dont have to get KOTR you dont have to get ultimate weapons and limit breaks you dont have to master your materia so if you dont do these things the game is VERY HARD it all just depends on what you do. so dont blame the game for being easy blame yourself becuase you could have made it harder for yourseld you just decided to go the easy way out.
Looks like I'm going to get involved with this again.

Uh, what in the world are you talking about? You are contradicting yourself by what you just said. The game is very easy <B>without</B> getting to level 99, or getting KOTR, or the ultimate weapons, or the limit breaks, or mastering materia. The game is incredibly easy, because you are never stuck in one place for more than 10 minutes, because you aren't strong enough to advance to the next part of the game. The game is incredibly easy because you can finish it with pretty basic weaponry, and average HP. The game is incredibly easy because you never have to solve difficult puzzles or slay ridiculously difficult bosses.


And you say once Aeris died the characters and you know exactly whats coming next. Heres what i say to that are you and the characters psychic NO. all they know at this point is Sephioth=Bad We=Good so lets go kill him they know nothing else. they and you the player know nothing of the weapons the crater and cloud going loopy and getting lost in the lifestream god you dont even know about holy and that the white orb aeris dropped was the white materia. there is still pleanty to figure out at this point.
One thing I'm trying to figure out is what you are trying to say here. It would be really nice if you put a little more effort into structuring your sentences and making them readable to the audience here.

Honestly, I don't remember ever saying that the characters know exactly what is coming next after Aeris is killed. I'm not calling you a liar, but if you can point me to the spot in one of my posts that says that, then I'll counter it.


And when you complain about not being able to physically attack with a limit break this is just the game being hard and challenging and telling you to be creative there are pleanty of other things to do besides physically attack and use magic. theres deathblow, manipulate, god u can just not use that character or RUN AWAY FOR GODS SAKE!!
But do you not understand? Physical attacks are what your characters use <B>most</B> of the time to win battles! And if you take that aspect away when you reach a Limit Break, it's udderly ridiculous. There are plenty of things to do other than physical attacks and magic? Oh really, then how come you only named two? Manipulate is flawed because it's only good if the enemy uses a nice attack or something like that. And Deathblow doesn't even work all the time, so you may fail with it and have to wait a whole second turn to try and finish off the enemies; and by that time, they may have already killed you. Don't even use the "RUN AWAY" routine either. Even if you choose to run away when you get a Limit Break, it's still going to be there in the next battle, and every battle you fight from then on until you get rid of it.


The ending isnt that bad becuz the game has given you enough information for you to come up with your own theories. and when it shows midgar 500 years later it is showing you that the wound of the planet has healed. look at it this way holy originally is helping meteor becuase the planet is like midgar is my wound and the humans that infest it are the cuase for the wound so i will destroy the cuase so it will never happen again then aeris who is in the lifestream is like wait these are my friends yes they can be bad but give them a chance so she calls upon the lifestream to destroy meteor and save the human race then 500 years later it shows you the wound is healed and the human race has learned its lesson and is not sucking the planets life away anymore. see what a little thought can do.
No, sorry. The ending doesn't automatically tell the player that "MIDGAR IS HEALING". All it shows is a grassy wasteland, nothing more. Oh yeah, and a few cats.

The ending is bad because it is supposed to leave you with something more; not just show you that the grass needs to be cut.

And by no means does the ending suggest that 'Humans have learned their lesson'. Where you came up with that one is beyond me.


And when you say they didnt have enough info on the nonimportant characters all i have to say is you cant tell everyones story at once and if they did it would be too much at once. they give you enough info to make theories and for you to understand things.
It seems to be a theme with you and FFVII; theories. I don't give a rat's ass about thinking up theories with my characters. I would rather want to know their stories than have to sit there and think about where they came from and what their true motives is. Yes, the game gave a little bit of information regarding the characters in general, but not nearly enough.


When you complain about how materia takes away from you hp well master it and it wont but like i said you dont have to if you want a challenge. But that is part of beating the game becuase i see beating a game as completing everything possible. Materia is part of the challenge of the game you're just trying to take it away. if you take away the hp reduction but still have the spells and such then materia is just a powerful weapon the double sided sword is a good thing becuase you are sacrificing your life to use materia which makes it challenging if you took away the hp reduction then your just making the game easier which you obviosly hate.
Sorry, but it's not a challenge to master materia. It's just a long, boring process of leveling up for hours and hours and hours. That is no challenge, but rather a funeral. And anyways, by the time you master materia, it really doesn't matter anymore. If you set out to master materia only to save your HP, then you honestly just threw away some of your life.

Wow, I sure missed doing this.

ok smokey first of all your way behind if u read my new posts youll see i went into more detail with my points.

and secondly you need to learn to understand what you read becuz u missed all of my points completely.
for one i never contradicted myself becuz i did not say it was easy if you used poor weps, low level magic and pathetic summons on low level characters and said it was harder an example is try beating emerald weapon with the buster sword lowel level magic pathetic summons and low level characters and you'll discover that it is extremely hard and is almost impossible. maybe you should read all of a statement instead of the first sentence before writing a counter statement.

another point you missed becuase of poor reading skills is that i didnt say mastering materia was hard. i said that materia was part of the challenge of the game becuase it reduces your stats to use it therefore you are making a sacrifice of life to use powerful attacks if you would take this away then u just have another powerful weapon.

on the ending you missed my point again becuase of poor reading skills i didnt say that that was the only thing that could've happened i was trying to prove that the ending is like that for you to decide what happens on your own and that you can come up with pretty good and accurate theories on your own if you just thing about it.

with the limit breaks you missed the point again becuase of poor reading skills becuase what i was saying was there are other things to do and the game is telling you to do something else if you dont want to limit break, its just another challenge. and i only listed two cuz ive got complaints for writing too much but if you want them all well here you go mug, enemy skill, throw, manipulate, deathblow, morph, items, mime, counter attack, summon, and all the magics. the game is just telling you to get creative and do something else and you know what you say theres no challenge well this sounds like you consider this a big challenge and when i said run away that was when you said "if your right before a boss u have to use it" well i u run away u can use it in the boss battle thats right around the corner.

and when you say you dont remember saying the characters and you know eveything after aeris' death all i have to say is this is a thing called loss of memory because this is exactly what you said word for word "The Importance of Aeris' Death

When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't know if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Yes, her death was important for the storyline, but she was going to die regardless of whether or not Sephiroth did her in first.

When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them."
so what i said did counter your point and it made perfect sense you just have as ive said before a problem understanding what you read.

prove it many fans dont participate in these things.

infact omnislash you seem very biased towards the haters side and it seems to me it's becuase you dont want to displease the "high and mighty" prak.

yea, but most of them that do participate usually do nothing more than make asses of themselves.

I'm only biased to you cause i'm not on your side here. Look at my sn. I actually liked the game, and thought it was a good game. as far as prak goes, he can be a bit of a prick sometimes, but when your right 90% of the time, it doesn't really matter. I'm not trying to please anyone, I just used to like the game a whole lot, then i saw how pathetic the fanboys arguments were compared to prak's, and was able to take a step back and take an unbiased look and see that him and smokey's arguments far outweigh any fanboy arguments i've seen yet. I"m not biased at all, I just look at both sides and see a clear cut winner

I just shattered smokey argument and praks arguments just dont have the emotion the fanboys do and most of the fans see no point in going into deep analysis becuase we like the game as a whole not as something disected.

I just shattered smokey argument and praks arguments just dont have the emotion the fanboys do and most of the fans see no point in going into deep analysis becuase we like the game as a whole not as something disected.

you dont shatter anything. Prak and smokey shatter 95% of the things said by fanboys. nobody here has every stopped anyone from liking the game, but when most fanboys here are like "OMG FFVII IS THE BEST GAME OF ALL TIME" when it has been cleary proven to be nothing more than mediocre, thats when the likes of prak and smokey step in and dissect it to show the many faults of the game

prove it many fans dont participate in these things.

infact omnislash you seem very biased towards the haters side and it seems to me it's becuase you dont want to displease the "high and mighty" prak.

Thanks for the laugh; I really needed it. "High and mighty?" Prak's just having fun taking you to school. And you want proof? Take me. Before I read the posts in these threads, I thought FF7 was the best of the series. Now I see that it clearly isn't. Your main problem is that you communicate your points so badly because you keep repeating that you don't understand Prak's logic, so what little factual support you do have is very difficult to find, and people shouldn't have to decipher your arguments to understand what you're trying to say.

I ran out of popcorn. Anyone willing to share?

look at what smokey wrote and look at my response and youll see that he had no idea what he was talking about and that i shattered his argument he recently posted. and how can you prove it mediocre thats an opinion. and smokey just makes a fool of himself and i have proved it. prak does it too just not as bad as smokey and not as obvious so i see him as really the only one of you who can debate well and the rest of you hide behind him. and how can you say u guys dont try to make people hate the game? thats y u guys post those kind of things, why else would u do it? and finally the people that say they like it cuz they like it and it was awesome well thats just as good of an argument as all the things everyone else says. somethings u just like becuz u like them and u dont know why u like them u just like them and its hard to explain why. think about certain things u like and ull see sometimes its hard to explain why and then maybe ull understand some of those "pathetic" fanboy arguments a little better.

when did i say i didnt understand praks logic. and the last 5 or 6 posts ive made my points are very clear and the examples backing them up are easy to find and they are quite convincing you guys just dont want to accept the fact that a fanboy could possibly make just as convincing points as you .and there is no factual support for any of everybodys arguments becuase there are no facts in this debate, it is all opinions with supporting evidence from the game backing them up.

wow...long posts....

*sigh* This is gonna be a really long post...


ok prak now your just saying im wrong for the sake of saying im wrong and becuase you dont want to accept that my points and any other fans are just as convincing as yours and notice how im saying ponts NOT facts becuase all of these are opinions and points were making on those opinions there are NO facts in this argue meant it is all opinionated.

Get a grip. If the best defense you can come up with is "It's just your opinion," then it's not worth my time to do this with you.


And ive said it once and ill say it agian any game can be made hard depending on how you play it. for example some people who play mario 3 find it extremely hard and trust me i know cuz my cousins and my friends are some of them while some people find it extremely easy becuase they know secrets and techniques that make it easy for them. the same is true about ff7. if you dont know a pheonix down will 1 hit kill an undead enemy than undead enemies and bosses may be hard for you, if you dont know about certain spells summons and techniques then some boss battles may be extremely hard for you example: emerald weapon can be extremely hard even if you have KOTR and omnislash and ultimate weapons becuase its attacks can kill even lvl 99 characters in one hit. now if youtyr kotr and limit breaks and all those things it can still be hard, but if all your characters can mime than this battle is extremely easy becuase you can just have one person summon KOTR and have everyone else mime it and in no time emerald weapon will fall. so see it all depends on how the player plays it that determine if a game is easy or not.

And how hard is it to figure out all that. All you're saying is that it's challenging to people who are too stupid/lazy to figure out the game's mechanics, but when you apply a little sense to the way you play, it truly is astoundingly simple. I, for one, am not a moron, so I found the game easy and I am not going to play like an idiot just to get a challenge.


The only possible explanation for who killed aeris is that it was Jenova. this is becuase sephiroth is cacooned in the crater and jenova can take any form it pleases. so to make sure holy wasnt summoned and sephiroth could be awakened jenova killed aeris to stop holy while taking the form of sephiroth so it would lure cloud and the others to the crater. so it couldnt possibly be the real sephiroth that killed aeris becuase it is physically impossible for a person to be two places at once. the real sephiroth doesnt come into the picture until after cloud awakens him with the balck materia.
like i said all this is in the game you just have to look for it and piece it together.

Thoeries theories theories... You just can't deal in facts, can you?


I'd have to say that The Lady, and the Tiger makes the perfect counter-argument. It gives you enough information that you can draw your own conclusion leaving you with a meaningful experience of what you feel at the end.

As I said, it was intended to be that way. It was made that way for a reason and provided a perfectly satisfying conclusion. FFVII is not a particularly thought-provoking story, so it should have had a decent ending.


Final Fantasy VII is just like this. The whole entire game is centered around life or Mako, and death, Midgar. You could even consider these the two doors that the man were forced to chose from. The game builds and builds on this giving you information to help you make your final decision. So finally the ending comes, and it leaves you hanging. To whether or not the earth chose Life or Death and it is up for you to decide.... but wait.... they leave a little special clip at the end... the scene with Nanaki that can help sway your decision. In all honestly, Final Fantasy VII's ending was brilliant. And to say that The Lady and the Tiger and Final Fantasy VII are nothing alike is just a horrible comparison. Clearly, two doors are in both, and only one can be chosen. These both have great impacts on your opinion of the world.

I'll admit that you did a good job of tying FFVII to The Lady and the Tiger. However, the difference is that FFVII was intended as entertainment, whereas the other was a fable, intended to teach a lesson. Since there was no lesson to be learned from the ending of FFVII, there was no justification for an incomplete ending of the sort you describe.

And on top of that, the final scene with Nanaki clearly shows that the planet got along just fine, along with the life on it. Therefore, the choice you say exists really doesn't exist at all. It just left out the important bits inbetween.


and the plot developments i mentioned do change the characters course, if they didnt learn about holy then they'd have no idea what the hell to do in the meteor, and the weapons maybe dont change their paths but didnt you notice they only attacked when someone was trying to stop meteor?

None of that affects the player's outlook on the game's events. Through it all, the objectives and reasons for them remain the same.


emerald weapon is there to stop you from getting the key of the ancients.

How can you possibly know that? More speculation.


the characters are developed they had pesonalities and you knew enough about their pasts to understand thier motives and personalities. any more anlaysis would be overdoing it cuz theres nothing more anyone wants to know avout the main characters

How do you know? Do you speak for everyone? And I already clearly described the lack of personalities, so I'm not going to bother doing it again.


in fact the only one whos past you dont fully know is cait sith but you know enough about him to understand his motives and if i remeber correctly isnt cait sith one of the turks.

Going a bit off topic here, but... Nope. Not a turk.


and the other character you want to know about arent main characters and arent in the story enough to even bother telling more about them you know all you need to know about those characters to understand the story and thier motives you cant explain everyones tale just those who are in the story a lot and the people reading/watching/playing the story care most about.

I'm getting really sick of trying to figure out where to cut off your damn run-on sentences. Punctuation please.

Anyway, character development is good. Their backstories could easily be made optional, so players who don't care wouldn't have to see it.


for example in "to kill a mockingbird" are the ewells expalined in as much depth as the finches NO are the cunninghams explained in as much depth as the finches NO and is the book frowned upon for poor character development becuase they didnt tell enough about the nonimportant characters NO infact it is praised for its character development becuase you know enough about the main characters and their personality who are the ones you care about most in the story.

A book is not the same as a game. A game can have a much longer story with much greater depth.


and in ff7 this is the same you know enough about the main characters, the ones you care about most, and thier personalities to know what they are like and what they would do in certain situations.

I disagree, for reasons previously stated.


and finally putting emotion into ones argument is not a bad thing it is a good thing. it means they are more deeply involved in thier beliefs and can sway a crowd more easily becuase they seem more human and can reach the audiances emotions more easily. while those who are less emotional seem more inhuman to an audiance and causes them to dislike that person more than the emotional one.
this can obviously be seen in many speeches where the a crwod is swayed more towards the emotional one than the less emotional one becuase he seems more human and can reach them better.

Speeches and debates are completely different. You want to get a crowd fired up during a speech, but you want them to think clearly during a debate. Getting carried away just makes you look childish under those conditions.


another point you missed becuase of poor reading skills is that i didnt say mastering materia was hard.

Smokey most likely missed something or misunderstood you because of your own poor writing skills. It's painful to read the things you write because of run-on sentences, lack of punctuation, and a lot of needless garbage that just takes up space rather than making a point.

How can you possibly know that? More speculation.



regarding emerald weapon. emerald and ruby were just thrown into the American version as optional bosses for an extra challenge (which actually wasn't that challenging), they weren't in the original version, and have absolutely no relevance to anything at all

As I foreseed , my thread has been (it is legitimate, of course) closed.
And Ill post here what I wrote there.

----------------

I talk to you all who don�t like FFVII: you are wrong, from the start of your posts you are simply wrong.

Cause you list all the points wich make FFVII a not-good game according to you.

You say the materia system is too easy, the storyline is simple, one thing is�, one other is�

Here the matter is not if your statements are true or not, if they are shared or not.

The matter is that you ask to a FFVII player WHY he/she likes that game.

Well, that is an HUGE wrong: no one can explain WHY he/she likes a thing.

That player would have say: �Yeah, I like it for its gameplay, for its materia system, bla bla bla�
And you reply: �But gameplay sucks, materia system is too easy to play, story is too easy bla bla bla��
Great, IT DOESN�T MATTER AT ALL if gameplay or story sucks or if there is not character peculiarity.

BECAUSE THAT PLAYER LOVES THAT GAME, AND YOU CAN'T ASK HIM/HER WHY.


Rabid Monkey had to create his post: �FFVII - Why it ISNT a good game FOR ME�

Bye

--------------------

Why do people write such long messages? I'm sure half of us don't really feel like reading it all. Just say why you like it, i mean it doesnm't take up that much space now, does it?

As I foreseed , my thread has been (it is legitimate, of course) closed.
And Ill post here what I wrote there.

----------------

I talk to you all who don�t like FFVII: you are wrong, from the start of your posts you are simply wrong.

Cause you list all the points wich make FFVII a not-good game according to you.

You say the materia system is too easy, the storyline is simple, one thing is�, one other is�

Here the matter is not if your statements are true or not, if they are shared or not.

The matter is that you ask to a FFVII player WHY he/she likes that game.

Well, that is an HUGE wrong: no one can explain WHY he/she likes a thing.

That player would have say: �Yeah, I like it for its gameplay, for its materia system, bla bla bla�
And you reply: �But gameplay sucks, materia system is too easy to play, story is too easy bla bla bla��
Great, IT DOESN�T MATTER AT ALL if gameplay or story sucks or if there is not character peculiarity.

BECAUSE THAT PLAYER LOVES THAT GAME, AND YOU CAN'T ASK HIM/HER WHY.


Rabid Monkey had to create his post: �FFVII - Why it ISNT a good game FOR ME�

Bye

--------------------


I doubt anyone will take u seriously even if they can understand what you wrote, its not exactly the best grammer around. a not-good game?

I just shattered smokey argument and praks arguments just dont have the emotion the fanboys do and most of the fans see no point in going into deep analysis becuase we like the game as a whole not as something disected.

Did you even read the beginning posts of the other thread? You have yet to say something half as valid as what Rabid Monkey and Smokey said there. If you haven't, don't post any more until you have.

Now before I give my two cents, I would just like to say I do not wish to offend anyone here. You�ve all made good points (�attempted� in Trekkie�s case. Sorry but I cannot read �ur poosts�). I can see you strongly support your views, but you are going about this debate thing all wrong.
It seems you guys are missing the entire point of a debate. When one debates he/she does not just throw out random arguments to support a point that will supposedly �counter� the opponent. One does not scream slander at the opponent. Why? This does nothing (I�m still confused why Bush won presidency). To slander your opponent is just ridiculing yourself, deflating your argument and any value the observers have for you. The point of a debate is to reach a common ground. Make concessions on each of your parts. For example in the United Nations when people wish to obtain help they don�t continually debate about what should be done. That would be silly, because they would be debating and nothing would get done. So they come to a compromise that would benefit as many of the countries involved as possible. I�m not saying that Trekkie has to say that the game is bad and Prak doesn�t have to say the game is good, but I�m sure you can both agree that there are strong and weak points in the game. Debate about points in the game that are strong or weak and why they are that way. (No, stating an opinion isn�t a reason.) Reach a common ground where both parties feel they have received just rewards. Do not continually spout out arguments trying to convince the other person that �your way� is the �right way.� Because most of the time it doesn�t work and people just retain their position.
So, I would suggest you guys reach some kind of compromise. I don�t care what you come up with, but do not continually bash each other over some game, it isn�t worth it. Concede on certain parts of the game. I�m sure there is something good about it that Prak can commend and I�m sure there are things that piss Trekkie off. I know other people are getting tired of these posts and it seems you�ve even managed to drive chorns off. It seems that it is time to end this debate, and if you can�t even seem to agree to a simple compromise, you might as well agree to disagree. Bashing each other�s arguments constantly will not accomplish anything. Flame me or not, this is how I feel

(So this post actually has some pertinence to the thread. Whether Final Fantasy VII is good or not is up to the person playing it. I refuse to admit the game is the best or the worst, but it does have high points and low points.)

Hey, Trekkie, stop fucking around and read our posts, then maybe you will understand that you are far outclassed! You have not come up with good points, nor have you proved that we are wrong in anyway!

You're talking about dealing with political issues; this is just for fun. When you have a debate like this, your goal is to make your side seem to have a stronger argument. It's not like you have to compromise over viewpoints of a game. You are right about the slandering, though.

Wha? Political issues? How is FFVII political?

chorns, what FF1WithAllThieves meant was that I was talking about political debates. Since Final Fantasy VII is not a political issue, then you cannot compare it to a political debate.
I don't want to get drawn into this, but no matter what the form of debate you use, be it political or for fun, there must be some structure. Otherwise, people will just be screaming mindless junk. Without structure the end only comes about when one person finally gets fed up and leaves, like chorns did. It just tests the stubbornness of people. This is no way, even for fun to debate. Yes, I agree you must have your side seem stronger, but most of the time with just a stronger argument you aren't going to get anywhere. Trekkie, having very few strong points, outlasted chorns in stubborness and he continues to struggle against Prak with his weak arguments. Obviously, Prak is a stronger debater and therefore he'll have a stronger more convincing argument. I can't say for sure, but it seems that Trekkie is really stubborn. He won't conform to written English and some ideals of others. I do agree that debates for fun are far from political debates but no matter the form you need some structure. I'm not saying you have to compromise (it is merely my suggestion), you can always agree to disagree, which is fine.

I'll say it again, I suck at debating. If I were as good as Prak, then I would still be in, but for know I am just spectating, unless I think of something on the fly to counterargue against Trekkie.

And that's exactly why threads like this onealways end up in some sort of war.
The stout FF7 fans simply say: "That's YOUR opinion, so shut up, I like the game but I am NOT telling YOU why!"

Isn't it possible to just talk - in a friendly way - about WHY you like the game, and maybe admit that yes, some parts are a bit dumb, and it's understandable that people who don't like this, or who prefer that, don't like FF7 too much.

If all you're going to yell is that "all you FF7 haters" should get out of this forum and leave the fans to their praising of the game.

Instead, tolerate that maybe there are people who actually want to talk about why they think FF7 isn't a very good game, and there is no other place to do this than the FF7 forum.
So if you are really unwilling to defend your opinion and explain WHY you think FF7 is good, and at the same time want to complain that people don't share your opinion and DARE share it, then do not post in here. :(
There ya go, the wise words of Tokiko.

1: It is not a gamer's responsibility to make a game challenging. Period. The game is as hard as the developers made it. And they made it easy.

I�m still going to have to disagree with you on this. You�ve offered no real reason as to why you believe this... you�ve just merely stated that the developers had to make it hard.... and apparently you are making us.. The gamers... look incompetent because we can�t change the difficulty of the game.
Now I�m going to agree with you to a point that the developers should make a game challenging. UP to a point. For example, the developers can make a hard level and an easy level. Just because you play the game on easy doesn�t make the game easy, it just means that you haven�t chosen to switch to the hard mode. You can use this as an example to Final Fantasy VII. Getting massive levels, ultimate weapons, and ultimate materia is the game on easy mode. You�ve just haven�t switched to hard mode. Just because the developers haven�t created a �hard� option doesn�t mean the gamer is incompetent to make the game challenging for himself. Therefore... I�m going to disagree with you... that it isn�t entirely the developer�s job to create a hard game, but it is also the gamer�s job... to make it challenging for themselves.

2: The plot developments you mentioned are minor because they do not change the player's outlook on the game. Sephiroth and Shinra are still bad. Mako is still good, as is anyone trying to preserve it. You merely look at the other stuff and think, "Obstacle on the path. Must defeat."

Now that was just total crap. Significant plot events don�t have to affect your opinion of a character or an ideal. Look at Harry Potter, when we learned about Tom Riddle being Voldemort... did we still hate him... yes..... and did that change how much we hated him.... yes... and did it have significance to the story... yes! A major plot event doesn�t have to change how the reader feels about the character at all. It should re-enforce what is already known and make the opinion strong though. Such as in the example, Tom Riddle made us hate Voldemort even more.
This is the same way with Final Fantasy VII. The WEAPONS were not a �major� plot event, but it certainly was significant enough that influenced the goals and the actions of the heros. The WEAPONS didn�t just make you destroy them... but you chose to destroy the weapons in order to save your hometown. As you said ShinRa is bad... ok.... so if WEAPONS are going to destroy Midgar, which is killing the planet, (and thus destroying MAKO which is good) then why not let the WEAPONS destroy it? Obviously, it isn�t just a simple decision to destroy it... because it would be a great benefit to the team if they didn�t have to defeat ShinRa and can focus on Sephiroth. We all know why they decided to destroy the WEAPONS, but they weren�t just obstacles in the path.... they forced the team to make decisions about how to proceed. If they were just obstacles in the path then they would just roll right over them without much hesitation and I believe that is where your argument is weak.
As for Holy not being a major plot development, I�d have to say you�re completely befuddled. Holy changed the team�s view of what must be done. Before it was just �We want revenge for Aeris so we are going to kill Sephiroth� but after they learned of Holy from Nanaki�s father... then they now have a more significant reason to destroy Sephiroth so they can save the planet. Even at the end, Holy comes up again with another plot twist. Instead of helping to destroy the Meteor, it is helping the Meteor destroy Midgar. This totally upset everything that the team believes and it clearly had a great importance to what happened. If that isn�t a major plot occurrence then all my years of English has been for nothing.

3: I have previously stated that Battle Square was the only worthwhile minigame. The others are garbage because they offer no decent rewards for the time you invest in them. If I wanted a change of pace from the rest of the game, I'd just put in another game that would be more fun than the minigames.

While the Battle Square may have been the most quick and beneficial to some players, and in some eyes the best, it isn�t the only minigame of substance. Fort Condor�s minigame was impressive. It had the feel of a Real Time Strategy game built right into Final Fantasy VII. Now, I don�t know how much you like RTS, and honestly I don�t care, but the system in Fort Condor was adequate enough to bring some enjoyment into the game. The only thing I found terribly horrible was the fact that it limited your number of troops, but when you compare it to real life... even if you have an infinite about of money... there is still the constriction of your population.. You can�t recruit more people than you have. This makes sense... so I really can�t complain about it. The reward for the Fort Condor battles aren�t spectacular, but I can�t say that they aren�t worth it.
Honestly, the basis for the other games in the Golden Saucer were there just so you could obtain GP to use in the Battle Square. I feel square really wanted to emphasis this portion of the game, and in this they decide that in reward for playing the other minigames you get the GP to use for the Battle Square. In all honesty, there is nothing wrong with the bike game, or the snowboarding game. Even the submarine game has it points, but these are basically all emphasizing the main thing... the Battle Square. The rewards for these games are basically the GP which you use in the Battle Square to get even better prizes. You can also obtain the EXP materia to gain more EXP, and the Gil Materia that will help you obtain more Gil after battles from the battle square.... more money and quicker leveling up time if needed are great ways.
The minigames in Final Fantasy VII weren�t as terrible as you make them out to be... they were decent at the least. They had adequate prizes for the time invested in them and it makes sense that they deserve more credit than what you give them.

4. However, the difference is that FFVII was intended as entertainment, whereas the other was a fable, intended to teach a lesson. Since there was no lesson to be learned from the ending of FFVII, there was no justification for an incomplete ending of the sort you describe.

Hmmm. Correct me if I'm interperting you wrong, but it seems like you say that lessons cannot be taught by entertainment means. Why you say this, it escapes me, especially since most of our lessons were taught by entertainment. Look back in the Elizabethan times with Shakespeare, a master play-rafter (He stole stories, but he still wrote masterful plays). People went to the theater to receive entertainment, but at the end of many of his plays it left the observer with a valuable lesson. Look at other games such as Xenogears. I shall not say what the ending was (for fear of spoilers)... but if you've played it then you know that the ending conveys a powerful meaning. Isn't Xenogears something of entertainment? Look at a plethora of other games. Woven within their intricate storytelling, these games of entertainment displays powerful meanings. If these games can hold powerful meaning why not FF VII? As for the lessons learned from the game, they are all intertwined with the themes, of Life, Death, and the choices we make in our life.
The Final scene does give us a glamour of hope or despair depending on how you look at it. It does help you to realize what choice is made. The scene can be thought of the way you think of it, as hope for the planet and life once again reigns supreme. But if you take a deeper look you see that Midgar being overrun could be the end of the human race. Why haven't the humans tended to one of their beloved creations. This could be taken that the human race no longer exist. The ending of Final Fantasy is interpretation... just like the Lady, and the Tiger. All the information is there... the choice is just up to the player to decide.

5: You pointed out the individual stories for all the characters, but what you failed to make mention of was that they had nothing else. One quick side (or small segment of the main path) trip told all that the game had to offer. Their limited development was forced on you all at once. After that, their tales faded into the background, leaving too many unanswered questions.

*sigh* I would have to say that just doesn�t make sense. None of the character�s plots were FORCED on you, they were all woven into the story. Lets take Barret as an example... his story started with the town of Corel, which the group has to pass through in order to make it to the Gold Saucer. That isn�t forced on you because it just part of the story. Then comes when you are thrown in prison of the Gold Saucer. You are merely thrown in for a crime that you didn�t commit.. Nothing forced about that. To get out.. You have to talk to a man to get permission to leave. Again this is all part of the plot so nothing is forced. So then you realize it is Dyne, and since Dyne is there you can sort out the issues... It makes perfect sense doesn�t it. But wait, that isn�t all. He returns to North Correl and he saves the town from disaster by stopping the train. Again not forced because you were after the Huge Materia anyway. So now he has saved his town and he is now no longer viewed as a terrible man. As for the Characters having their story all at once, I do agree that some of the characters were solved in one or two points, but I would ask what else is necessary? After Barret has resolved his issues with Dyne, and he becomes a hero with the town... what else is there. There is no other plot points for Barret that must be addressed. Why he fights, who he fights for, and what his past contains is already addressed. All questions answered. Brining up more plot points would just be creating more questions that shouldn�t have to be created or just beating the character�s development to death. Hmm I doubt their tales fade into the background. I do agree that they don�t bring back these events often... but it does come up. Everyone at the end of the game before entering the crater must find something to fight for. Their background stories are a true benefit there because you are finally able to comprehend why they are fighting. I understand how you would like everyone to be addressed at all the time... but... simply put... when you have nine or so characters, you cannot possibly address them all in one plot line. I�d be glad to address the other characters when I have time..

6: Your analysis of the Jenova/Sephiroth relationship is, I say again, based largely on speculation and interpretation. There is no factual evidence that clearly defines what happened, no matter how deep you dig.

How it is speculation when the game has clearly defined these points for you:
1. Sephiroph�s physical body is embedded in the crater the entire game... this is made clear.. I believe the game even shouts it in your face... forgive but I forget the scene.. It is most possibly when Cloud hands over the black materia.
2. Since part 1 is proven, then clearly Sephiroph cannot have possibly killed Aerith... and then you must conclude it is some other form. What form is the big question. I dunno if my memory is messed up or I�ve been having weird fantasies, but I do recall from the game I time when we realize that the Sephiroph we�re trailing but a clone. A clone made from Jenova.
Therefore it is not complete speculation that I have come to this conclusion and it is based mostly on facts that I feel confident enough to say this.

Now I have a question for you Prak.... are you a robot? (I only bring this up because you seem so emotionless to me. You rarely show any signs of emotion on the forums... maybe I just haven�t read enough of what you say... but I�m sorry to say, but to me you seem like a robot.)

Omnislash... as for personal insults I think Prak has also done his share... if you are going to discipline someone for something then don�t beat up on one person because they have conflicting views than you... treat everyone the same... and give Prak a fair share too... or you could just discipline no one.

And Chorns I hate to say this but your first post
�sorry but our points were much more convincing than yours, especially because ours' did not sound like fanboys' going on about how great a game is.�
was worse than ours. It merely states what you believe. I dunno about you... but I have pulled examples to support my facts, and related Final Fantasy VII to real life examples. I don�t think I�ve gone on �about how great a game [it] is�, I�ve been supporting my views.
And your second post
�Your strong points should emphasize themselves, FFVII is super ultra easy if you get all the characters up to level 99!! In fact any Final Fantasy that uses the same leveling up system that FFVII does will be easy at level 99!! What we are saying is that FFVII can be easy to beat at level 50 or 60!! Hell, first time I ever played through the game I beat it with Cloud at level 43 without the Ultima Weapon and it was still pretty damn easy!! Don't think it isn't cause you would be wrong!! I know that for a fact!! When we are less emotional I think we can sort out fact from opinion better.�
Yes I agree, strong points should emphasize themselves. If a game is defined by how easy it is to defeat at the final Boss then almost any game can be easy. I personally beat VII when I was around that level, and I found it to be easy. I may have used The End to defeat the Omega Weapon and then used hero drinks to become invincible to defeat the final boss, but I still beat it at a low level (being around 40-50) and it wasn�t difficult at all and I�d assume it would be extremely easy using the same strategy at level 99. Believe me... I know this for a FACT! I doubt the final level you are at wen you beat the game has any very little relevance to how difficult the game is. As for emotion... it is a wonderful tool that the TV market uses to seduce their viewers. Look at the commercials where they ask for money for the starving children to sponsor them. I�m not saying they are bad and I�m not trying to undermine them, honestly I think they are a brilliant use of propaganda, but they are an extremely successful program... and it all because they target the emotion of the human heart.

And finally smokey does have poor reading skills becuase 1. he only read the first sentences of what i wrote and 2. it is very easy to understand what i wrote back there. my points and the evidence behind them were very clear.

I doubt anyone will take u seriously even if they can understand what you wrote, its not exactly the best grammer around. a not-good game?
Well, English is not my mother language. I'm foreign.
Hope only that post makes sense.

In a phrase: YOU CANT ASK SOMEONE WHY HE/SHE LIKES A GAME LIKE FFVII.

There are feelings involved, not arguments. Stop.

and there are no facts just opinions made with supporting evidence from the game.

and there are no facts just opinions made with supporting evidence from the game.

Ah, but the supporting evidence from the game is the facts!

Well, Trekkies, your post before this one was a definite improvement over your previous ones. Instead of just telling everyone that they're putting words in your mouth and ignoring your points and such, you actually provided some good details to support your cause. I feel inclined to help you out now.

My summary of FF7: *spoilers definitely present*

Story:
I'll start from the beginning. One plus goes to the story for the opening sequence. It opens with a very good musical background, and the move from the overview of Midgar zooming in to the train station is nice. (Don't worry; I won't keep this level of detail up; I'm just describing the first impression.) The way it initially introduces the first few characters, with Barret as the leader of a group with unclear motives, and Cloud as a mysterious mercenary who has no known origin. Barret then introduces the first clue as to the plot by telling about mako energy. Regrettably, this doesn't have any changes in it for the rest of the story. However, beginning the game, FF7 has an effective exposition.

Once Cloud tell's his story in Kalm town, the main villain and basic plot of FF7 is revealed. This was a tragic flaw of FF7; I really think that if Square had just put some twists in the plot, such as a villain change or something more major than what was in it. But they didn't, so FF7 gets stuck with only a pretty good plot up until the end. Aeris's death is a somewhat powerful scene, although it is nothing compared to Chrono's death.

As for the ending, I'm afraid I can't think of anything good to say about it. There were just too many loose ends that they didn't tie up. The ending brings the story down to a rating of sort of good AT BEST.

Gameplay:
I don't have much perspective of it, but gameplay was too easy. My general RPG strategy is to level up too much, but the major dissappointment to me was that the bosses didn't provide me anything worthy of my ultimate characters. After I got my characters to level 99 with three sets of master materia, I got this hollow feeling of a lack of accomplishment. Even the weapons were easy if you used final-attack Phoenix and started the Ruby WEAPON battle with two characters dead (I figured that one out for myself, so don't go accusing me of using an FAQ for that.) As for the limit breaks, I didn't mind the fact that it replaced your physical attack because you level some of them up by using them, and you don't need them for bosses anyway. The materia system is actually a personal favorite of mine, although it does devalue your characters. However, this does enable you to select your character usage by which characters you like rather than which ones are good. I don't think that really makes the game better, nor do I think that Square meant for the materia system to enable that, but I enjoyed it. The side quests should have been more extensive and difficult, and they should have had more of an impact on the game (i.e. getting characters back in FFVI.) Still, the side quests that were there were fairly good, and they made the game more enjoyable. So while it is by no means up to par with that of FFIV and FFVI, FFVII's gameplay still gets a rating of fairly good from me.

Characters:
I thought characterization was the strongest part of FFVII. The way the characters were introduced was effective, such as Vincent suddenly leaping into the screen behind you and asking about Hojo. Sephiroth was a good villain, but he is often both overrated and underrated. Those who did not play all the way through FFVI do not realize how much scarier Kefka was, and that Kefka was ironically similar in philosophical beliefs to Franz Kofka (sorry if I butchered the spelling.) Still, though, Sephiroth's uncanny power and insanity make him an effective villain, even if he IS totally eclipsed by Kefka. What Square should have done is made more side quests to tie up all the loose ends about the characters. But, again, they didn't, so I give the characters a rating of good.

Looking at just those areas, my final rating for FFVII is "moderately good, but by no means the best of the series."

By the way, could someone please tell me how to break up the quotes? I know my points will be countered, and that knowledge would really help me out.

and there are no facts just opinions made with supporting evidence from the game.
obviously you have never seen CSI, cause otherwise you would have known that most evidence is fact, unless it doesn't pertain to the case.

obviously you have never seen CSI, cause otherwise you would have known that most evidence is fact, unless it doesn't pertain to the case.

I haven't even seen CSI, and I knew that.

I don't think that Trekkie knew that, otherwise he wouldn't have posted what he did.

I know; I was actually supporting your statement rather than arguing with it.

Well thanks a lot ff1withallthieves I'm glad someone is realizing that the fans aren't just not weird people. (If I sound sarcastic I don't mean too.)

And what I was saying (just to clear things up a bit) was that there are no facts becuase all the evidence in this situation depends on the persons interpretation of it. So my evidence could work for your cause just as well as your evidence could work for my cause. Example: The Bible, people claim facts out of stories in the Bible yet someone can take the same story and contradict that person becuase they interpret the story differently. Now taking this into thought if you look at how many different interpretations of the Bible there are then a game can easily have multiple interpretations as well. Get what I mean? So they're not really facts because they are opinions being backed up by supporting examples interpreted by the debater, from the game.

those posts r fukn massive

Well thanks a lot ff1withallthieves I'm glad someone is realizing that the fans aren't just not weird people. (If I sound sarcastic I don't mean too.)

And what I was saying (just to clear things up a bit) was that there are no facts becuase all the evidence in this situation depends on the persons interpretation of it. So my evidence could work for your cause just as well as your evidence could work for my cause. Example: The Bible, people claim facts out of stories in the Bible yet someone can take the same story and contradict that person becuase they interpret the story differently. Now taking this into thought if you look at how many different interpretations of the Bible there are then a game can easily have multiple interpretations as well. Get what I mean? So they're not really facts because they are opinions being backed up by supporting examples interpreted by the debater, from the game.
I know, and it's the supporting examples from the game that turns our opinions into fact, I'm just saying that our supporting examples are much better.

those posts r fukn massive

Clearly you have not seen a debate involving Odin and rezo.

nope, but i can imagine that theyre pretty damn big

I�m still going to have to disagree with you on this. You�ve offered no real reason as to why you believe this... you�ve just merely stated that the developers had to make it hard.... and apparently you are making us.. The gamers... look incompetent because we can�t change the difficulty of the game.

I never said the developers were supposed to make it hard, just that it isn't a player's responsibility to make it harder. A game is as easy or hard as the developers make it. That fact remains constant. A gamer has no obligations to the game he/she plays.


Now that was just total crap. Significant plot events don�t have to affect your opinion of a character or an ideal. Look at Harry Potter, when we learned about Tom Riddle being Voldemort... did we still hate him... yes..... and did that change how much we hated him.... yes... and did it have significance to the story... yes! A major plot event doesn�t have to change how the reader feels about the character at all. It should re-enforce what is already known and make the opinion strong though. Such as in the example, Tom Riddle made us hate Voldemort even more.

Actually, learning about riddle reveals several similarities between Harry and Voldemort that do change your outlook on them. At that point, you start realizing how deep the connection between them runs. In every HP book, there is at least one such plot twist that alters your outlook on the events of the story.


This is the same way with Final Fantasy VII. The WEAPONS were not a �major� plot event, but it certainly was significant enough that influenced the goals and the actions of the heros. The WEAPONS didn�t just make you destroy them... but you chose to destroy the weapons in order to save your hometown.

But as I said, the weapons didn't change your outlook on anything. They simply alter the path you must take. Mako is still unconditionally good. Sephiroth and Shinra are still unconditionally bad. Aeris must still be avenged and the planet must be saved.

[/quote]As you said ShinRa is bad... ok.... so if WEAPONS are going to destroy Midgar, which is killing the planet, (and thus destroying MAKO which is good) then why not let the WEAPONS destroy it? Obviously, it isn�t just a simple decision to destroy it... because it would be a great benefit to the team if they didn�t have to defeat ShinRa and can focus on Sephiroth. [/quote]

But when was that conflict of interests ever described in the game? All the game ever said was, "Stop the weapon before it destroys Midgar," with no allusion at all to the conflict you describe.


We all know why they decided to destroy the WEAPONS, but they weren�t just obstacles in the path.... they forced the team to make decisions about how to proceed. If they were just obstacles in the path then they would just roll right over them without much hesitation and I believe that is where your argument is weak.

But they did just roll right over them without hesitation. The decisions you talked about were never a part of the game. Instead, Square just gave the party a stereotypical hero complex.


As for Holy not being a major plot development, I�d have to say you�re completely befuddled. Holy changed the team�s view of what must be done. Before it was just �We want revenge for Aeris so we are going to kill Sephiroth� but after they learned of Holy from Nanaki�s father... then they now have a more significant reason to destroy Sephiroth so they can save the planet.

Holy was nothing more than the obligatory counterpart to meteor. You knew all along that you would have to stop Sephiroth from dropping the meteor on the planet, so the existence of holy shouldn't be a surprise or revelation to anyone, assuming they had paid attention to the story up to that point.


Even at the end, Holy comes up again with another plot twist. Instead of helping to destroy the Meteor, it is helping the Meteor destroy Midgar. This totally upset everything that the team believes and it clearly had a great importance to what happened. If that isn�t a major plot occurrence then all my years of English has been for nothing.

Pure speculation. The game never said that holy helped destroy Midgar. It's just another theory fans have come up with over the years.


While the Battle Square may have been the most quick and beneficial to some players, and in some eyes the best, it isn�t the only minigame of substance. Fort Condor�s minigame was impressive. It had the feel of a Real Time Strategy game built right into Final Fantasy VII.

But it had no worthwhile reward. There was nothing to pay back the time you spend on it.


Now, I don�t know how much you like RTS, and honestly I don�t care, but the system in Fort Condor was adequate enough to bring some enjoyment into the game.

No matter how fun it was, it was still dead weight because the rewards weren't an even trade for your time.

Honestly, the basis for the other games in the Golden Saucer were there just so you could obtain GP to use in the Battle Square. I feel square really wanted to emphasis this portion of the game, and in this they decide that in reward for playing the other minigames you get the GP to use for the Battle Square. In all honesty, there is nothing wrong with the bike game, or the snowboarding game. Even the submarine game has it points, but these are basically all emphasizing the main thing... the Battle Square. The rewards for these games are basically the GP which you use in the Battle Square to get even better prizes. You can also obtain the EXP materia to gain more EXP, and the Gil Materia that will help you obtain more Gil after battles from the battle square.... more money and quicker leveling up time if needed are great ways.[/quote]

So wouldn't it have made more sense to leave out the more useless minigames and give players another way to obtain GP? As it stood, the only way you could get GP without playing the games was from the guy outside.


The minigames in Final Fantasy VII weren�t as terrible as you make them out to be... they were decent at the least. They had adequate prizes for the time invested in them and it makes sense that they deserve more credit than what you give them.

I disagree completely, for reasons stated above.


Hmmm. Correct me if I'm interperting you wrong, but it seems like you say that lessons cannot be taught by entertainment means. Why you say this, it escapes me, especially since most of our lessons were taught by entertainment. Look back in the Elizabethan times with Shakespeare, a master play-rafter (He stole stories, but he still wrote masterful plays). People went to the theater to receive entertainment, but at the end of many of his plays it left the observer with a valuable lesson. Look at other games such as Xenogears. I shall not say what the ending was (for fear of spoilers)... but if you've played it then you know that the ending conveys a powerful meaning. Isn't Xenogears something of entertainment? Look at a plethora of other games. Woven within their intricate storytelling, these games of entertainment displays powerful meanings. If these games can hold powerful meaning why not FF VII? As for the lessons learned from the game, they are all intertwined with the themes, of Life, Death, and the choices we make in our life.

And what was the meaning in the end of FFVII? There's no lesson to be learned from a clumsy cliffhanger, especially when the game skips ahead and tells you how it all turned out anyway. If nothing else, the scene with Nanaki should prove the pointlessness of it.

[quote]The Final scene does give us a glamour of hope or despair depending on how you look at it. It does help you to realize what choice is made. The scene can be thought of the way you think of it, as hope for the planet and life once again reigns supreme. But if you take a deeper look you see that Midgar being overrun could be the end of the human race. Why haven't the humans tended to one of their beloved creations. This could be taken that the human race no longer exist. The ending of Final Fantasy is interpretation... just like the Lady, and the Tiger. All the information is there... the choice is just up to the player to decide.

Even if you happened to be right, there's still another big difference. The Lady or the Tiger had a very clear ending with only two possible outcomes and was not intended to have the reader choose between them, but rather to reflect on the implications of both outcomes. The ending of FFVII could have any number of possible interpretations and is totally meaningless unless you dredge one up.


*sigh* I would have to say that just doesn�t make sense. None of the character�s plots were FORCED on you, they were all woven into the story.

And like I said, they only had a short moment, then faded into the background.


Lets take Barret as an example... After Barret has resolved his issues with Dyne, and he becomes a hero with the town... what else is there. There is no other plot points for Barret that must be addressed. Why he fights, who he fights for, and what his past contains is already addressed. All questions answered. Brining up more plot points would just be creating more questions that shouldn�t have to be created or just beating the character�s development to death.

As I said, more development does not have to be mandatory, but it is always nice to have it there or to have it spread more evenly throughout the game instead of having it handed to you in one big chunk.


Hmm I doubt their tales fade into the background. I do agree that they don�t bring back these events often... but it does come up. Everyone at the end of the game before entering the crater must find something to fight for.

So? They just reiterate their reasons for fighting. Nothing new is revealed.


Their background stories are a true benefit there because you are finally able to comprehend why they are fighting. I understand how you would like everyone to be addressed at all the time... but... simply put... when you have nine or so characters, you cannot possibly address them all in one plot line. I�d be glad to address the other characters when I have time..

Actually, you can quite easily include comprehensive ongoing stories for all characters in a large game. The only possible constraint would be disc space.


How it is speculation when the game has clearly defined these points for you:
1. Sephiroph�s physical body is embedded in the crater the entire game... this is made clear.. I believe the game even shouts it in your face... forgive but I forget the scene.. It is most possibly when Cloud hands over the black materia.
2. Since part 1 is proven, then clearly Sephiroph cannot have possibly killed Aerith... and then you must conclude it is some other form. What form is the big question. I dunno if my memory is messed up or I�ve been having weird fantasies, but I do recall from the game I time when we realize that the Sephiroph we�re trailing but a clone. A clone made from Jenova.
Therefore it is not complete speculation that I have come to this conclusion and it is based mostly on facts that I feel confident enough to say this.

The key words there are "based mostly on facts," which means there is interpretation present. In the face of that, you must also acknowledge that a different interpretation could significantly change the conclusion. Also, I have no recollection of any mention that the Sephiroth clones were made from Jenova.


Now I have a question for you Prak.... are you a robot? (I only bring this up because you seem so emotionless to me. You rarely show any signs of emotion on the forums... maybe I just haven�t read enough of what you say... but I�m sorry to say, but to me you seem like a robot.)

The only emotions I tend to express on the forums are pleasurable ones. If I'm amused by something, I'll say so. If I'm unhappy, I don't find any reason to whine about it here. Another thing that might give you that impression is the way I type, which happens to be rather formal.


And finally smokey does have poor reading skills becuase 1. he only read the first sentences of what i wrote and 2. it is very easy to understand what i wrote back there. my points and the evidence behind them were very clear.

I think I'll just step back and let Smokey speak for himself. May God have mercy on your soul.

Prak I really think you need to go back and play the game again becuase you are saying that certain things didn't happen that clearly did. And you say you don't remember certain things being said when they most certainly were. If you go back and play the game again you will catch all these things and be able to piece together and see a lot of the things I say are either true or highly likely. You will also see that some of your points will be proved wrong. I'm not telling you to play it again I'm mearly suggesting it before you go and say what happened and what didn't.

And before you tell me to do the same I will tell I just played through it again about 3-4 weeks ago to see if I was right about what I was saying.

You had to go play the game again to see if you were right?? Hah!!

Trekkies, calm down a little bit. No one has yet responded to my post. Aside from that, you should never claim that your opponent is wrong about details without saying what those details are. Someone please respond to my post; it's as though I'm being ignored because Trekkies's posts are more fun to flame.

Well I just didnt want to go into all the details cuz I've done it enough. But a lot of those things I said are in the game you just need to catch them, yet prak claims they didn't happen. I just think he should play through it again to see that they are there and that becuase of them a lot of our points and "theories" become true or highly likely.

ok smokey first of all your way behind if u read my new posts youll see i went into more detail with my points.
Yeah, I believe I already stated that I skipped a few pages because I knew you are going to say the same exact thing over and over again. So honestly, it wasn't worth my time.


and secondly you need to learn to understand what you read becuz u missed all of my points completely.
I'm the one that needs to learn how to read and understand posts? There's nothing else I can say than to look at yourself in the mirror, and then talk into it. Hopefully you don't talk like how you type, because then you'll look like an idiot who...

1. Doesn't know how to type
2. Doesn't know how to talk


for one i never contradicted myself becuz i did not say it was easy if you used poor weps, low level magic and pathetic summons on low level characters and said it was harder an example is try beating emerald weapon with the buster sword lowel level magic pathetic summons and low level characters and you'll discover that it is extremely hard and is almost impossible.
No, go back and read what you said. You said that the game is very hard <B>unless</B> you reach Level 99, master materia, get the KOTR, and get the Ultimate Weapons and Limit Breaks. So let me spell it out for you:

You are saying that the game is easy once you accomplish all these feats. But you also just said that it wasn't easy. And why in the world would you want to fight Emerald Weapon in the first place with crappy weapons and materia, amongst others? If you have to do something like that to find a game challenging, then FFVII is the only game you've played in your entire life.


another point you missed becuase of poor reading skills is that i didnt say mastering materia was hard. i said that materia was part of the challenge of the game becuase it reduces your stats to use it therefore you are making a sacrifice of life to use powerful attacks if you would take this away then u just have another powerful weapon.
Oh, now you are starting to insult my reading skills? Ha! That's a good one! Even if people don't agree with what I say, they will all agree that I don't have poor reading skills, and that mine are far better than yours.

Basically, if games are challenging <B>and</B> hard, then they are the same thing. By saying that mastering materia is a challenge, you are essentially saying that it's hard as well. Sorry, but it's common sense.


on the ending you missed my point again becuase of poor reading skills i didnt say that that was the only thing that could've happened i was trying to prove that the ending is like that for you to decide what happens on your own and that you can come up with pretty good and accurate theories on your own if you just thing about it.
Why do you constantly try to insult me with the poor reading skills crap? Sorry, but if that's the best one that you can come up with, then don't even bother.

And can you really prove that the ending is like that for <B>the sole purpose</B> of letting the players decide what happens on their own? Also, there aren't too many 'pretty good and accurate' theories that you can come up with on your own, if you just think about it. When I say there aren't too many, I mean less than a few and more than one, maybe!


with the limit breaks you missed the point again becuase of poor reading skills becuase what i was saying was there are other things to do and the game is telling you to do something else if you dont want to limit break, its just another challenge. and i only listed two cuz ive got complaints for writing too much but if you want them all well here you go mug, enemy skill, throw, manipulate, deathblow, morph, items, mime, counter attack, summon, and all the magics. the game is just telling you to get creative and do something else and you know what you say theres no challenge well this sounds like you consider this a big challenge and when i said run away that was when you said "if your right before a boss u have to use it" well i u run away u can use it in the boss battle thats right around the corner.
I guess this is going to be a theme with you, isn't it? Everything you have said to 'counter' my arguments has been "You missed my point because of poor reading skills".

And yes, I realize that once you hit the Limit Break, there are other commands that you can force your characters to do. Like I said before, just about every person who has played FFVII uses the Physical Attack command the majority of the time, so when that feature it taken away from them, it's stupid and wrong.

Who cares if you get complaints about writing too long? Prak and I write a lot longer than you do, but we never get complaints about the length of our posts. You know why? Because even if some of the people reading our opinions don't necessarily agree with them, they still respect us because we are fully capable of demonstrating our beliefs in a less-than-boring manner, or in your case, repeating the same few sentences over and over again.


and when you say you dont remember saying the characters and you know eveything after aeris' death all i have to say is this is a thing called loss of memory because this is exactly what you said word for word "The Importance of Aeris' Death
What? And you can say I have poor reading skills, but your poor typing skills and your inability to put together coherent sentences is absolutey amusing.


I just shattered smokey argument and praks arguments just dont have the emotion the fanboys do and most of the fans see no point in going into deep analysis becuase we like the game as a whole not as something disected.
I will admit something; you are one of the very few FFVII fans who has put up a halfway descent debate. But as to shattering Prak and I's arguments?
No way you are even in the same neighborhood as us yet.


look at what smokey wrote and look at my response and youll see that he had no idea what he was talking about and that i shattered his argument he recently posted.
And yet, the only thing you seem to be coming up with is that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Then you'll say for like the tenth time or so that I have poor reading skills. Shattering an argument means that you counter someone's opinion with far more reliable evidence that proves them wrong.


and smokey just makes a fool of himself and i have proved it.
Sorry kid, but I've been working in this thread and the other one for months now, so it's safe to assume that I have a little idea of what I'm getting myself into, and preventing myself from looking like a fool.


so i see him as really the only one of you who can debate well and the rest of you hide behind him.
I love fresh meat, I just love it!

For quite some time now, it's been Prak and I pounding FFVII into the ground. Every once in a while, another member posts something useful, and even comments further about other people's posts. But all in all, it's us two that are the main guys behind the bashing. The rest aren't hiding; they are just watching us tear you to shreds.


and how can you say u guys dont try to make people hate the game? thats y u guys post those kind of things, why else would u do it? and finally the people that say they like it cuz they like it and it was awesome well thats just as good of an argument as all the things everyone else says. somethings u just like becuz u like them and u dont know why u like them u just like them and its hard to explain why. think about certain things u like and ull see sometimes its hard to explain why and then maybe ull understand some of those "pathetic" fanboy arguments a little better.
Maybe you'll understand our arguments a little better if you spelled out the word 'you' instead of using 'u'

If someone likes the game, then that's their choice. I'm only here to share my opinion. When someone steps up against my posts, then I'll counter them back, turning it into a debate. That's the whole point of one, you know.


Now I have a question for you Prak.... are you a robot? (I only bring this up because you seem so emotionless to me. You rarely show any signs of emotion on the forums... maybe I just haven�t read enough of what you say... but I�m sorry to say, but to me you seem like a robot.)
I'm going to respond to this, even though you are talking specifically to Prak.

The only real way to show emotion on a forum is to use symbols like ! and :(. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Now, Prak and I are good friends and I know him better than you do. He isn't emotionless, he just chooses not to show them much at all. It takes a lot for him to get pissed, and me as well. So when you call him emotionless, it's just wrong. Prak just doesn't show them that much.


And finally smokey does have poor reading skills becuase 1. he only read the first sentences of what i wrote and 2. it is very easy to understand what i wrote back there. my points and the evidence behind them were very clear.
I'm not even going to bother trying to prove to you that I read more than just the first sentence of your posts. It's clearly obvious to all people, excpet you, that I am responding to your posts in whole, not just one or two sentences at a time.

Here's the thing: Just until recently, you had very poor grammar and it was hard for me to sometimes read what you are saying. Now, I understood the pont that you were trying to make, but I just couldn't read your posts most of the time.


Well I just didnt want to go into all the details cuz I've done it enough. But a lot of those things I said are in the game you just need to catch them, yet prak claims they didn't happen. I just think he should play through it again to see that they are there and that becuase of them a lot of our points and "theories" become true or highly likely.
That is what you are supposed to do when you are debating; go into details so that people don't think you are a complete dumbass. Like I said before, I've been doing this for months now, and I can't get enough of it.





Trekkie, having very few strong points, outlasted chorns in stubborness and he continues to struggle against Prak with his weak arguments.

Obviously, Prak is a stronger debater and therefore he'll have a stronger more convincing argument. I can't say for sure, but it seems that Trekkie is really stubborn. He won't conform to written English and some ideals of others.

Haha, you are awesome. Even though you are telling the truth, it made me laugh.

ok if you didnt just read the first sentences then how come thats all you responded to and missed the point of the parahgraphs. and now you really should go back and read previous posts because you are very far behind. and when i said you had no idea what you were talking about it was true becuase you were just rambling on thinking you were responding to me yet you werent. the things you said had nothing to do with what i said. and i did prove you had poor reading skill becuase the things you said that were "countering" me were just nonsense and i porved it with quotes from both you and me. and again you took things out of context.

Haha, you are awesome. Even though you are telling the truth, it made me laugh.

Ok Smokey thanks for the compliment and I'm glad to be of some enjoyment, although it wasn't my original intention. And concerning this :



Here's the thing: Just until recently, you had very poor grammar and it was hard for me to sometimes read what you are saying. Now, I understood the pont that you were trying to make, but I just couldn't read your posts most of the time.

Does no one else find it strange that Trekkie seems to constantly switch between different writing styles? One moment he is writing trash with dismal arguments and the next moment he is speaking with fair grammar and stronger (but not as strong as smokey's or Prak's) arguments. It seems like he has multiple personalities or something, at least that is my take on it.

ok if you didnt just read the first sentences then how come thats all you responded to and missed the point of the parahgraphs. and now you really should go back and read previous posts because you are very far behind. and when i said you had no idea what you were talking about it was true becuase you were just rambling on thinking you were responding to me yet you werent. the things you said had nothing to do with what i said. and i did prove you had poor reading skill becuase the things you said that were "countering" me were just nonsense and i porved it with quotes from both you and me. and again you took things out of context.

The things he said may not have had anything to do with what you MEANT to say, but they slashed to bits what you DID say. Furthermore, if you are going to call what someone says nonsense, PROVE IT.

Why won't anyone respond to my post? :-(

By the way, could someone please tell me how to break up the quotes? I know my points will be countered, and that knowledge would really help me out.

FF1WithAllThieves, if you wish to quote someone use this format:


"(Bracket)QUOTE=(person who you are quoting) (End Bracket) .... (quote goes here) .... (Bracket)/QUOTE(End Bracket)

Replace (Bracket) with a "["
Replace (End Bracket) with a "]"
Replace (Person who you are quoting) with the person you are quoting. Just don't use the quotes in my example.

I hope that helps.

The things he said may not have had anything to do with what you MEANT to say, but they slashed to bits what you DID say. Furthermore, if you are going to call what someone says nonsense, PROVE IT.

Why won't anyone respond to my post? :-(

i agree.
and on top of that, i responded to a post of yours lol


I love fresh meat, I just love it!

For quite some time now, it's been Prak and I pounding FFVII into the ground. Every once in a while, another member posts something useful, and even comments further about other people's posts. But all in all, it's us two that are the main guys behind the bashing. The rest aren't hiding; they are just watching us tear you to shreds.


that pretty much covers it. no one is hiding. its more like this. most Fanboys tend to argue relentlessly even when clearly beatin and make complete asses of themselves. most people on this side, well smokey and prak usually get to most of these things before me, plus, they aren't blinded in their arguments.

like me for example. I am able to stay unbiased, but i dont get too involved in the actual debate cause i haven't played the game in a while, so i dont have enough of the game memorized to be able to sight parts of the game off hand to always back up what i' might want to say, which makes it hard for me to present a strong argument. its not hiding. Prak and Smokey are the startes I'm just letting our A game play for my team. its ok though, I'll keep the bench nice and warm for them.

Just go back and read smokey's post. You'll see he missed the points. Here's an example:

Quote:
When you complain about how materia takes away from you hp well master it and it wont but like i said you dont have to if you want a challenge. But that is part of beating the game becuase i see beating a game as completing everything possible. Materia is part of the challenge of the game you're just trying to take it away. if you take away the hp reduction but still have the spells and such then materia is just a powerful weapon the double sided sword is a good thing becuase you are sacrificing your life to use materia which makes it challenging if you took away the hp reduction then your just making the game easier which you obviosly hate.


Sorry, but it's not a challenge to master materia. It's just a long, boring process of leveling up for hours and hours and hours. That is no challenge, but rather a funeral. And anyways, by the time you master materia, it really doesn't matter anymore. If you set out to master materia only to save your HP, then you honestly just threw away some of your life.

All he's is talking about here is the first sentence he completely missed the point of the paragraph which was not "you can just go master the materia" but "materia is one of the challenges in FF7 and if you took away the status reductions it would remove the challenge and make it easy, which is obviously something you guys hate." So see he did miss the points.

And the reason some of my posts are better than others is becuase I type them in MS Word which makes things look nicer and has spelling and grammar check. The ones that aren't better are becuase they are just quick little responses that I type in quick response and don't really check.

He did not miss the point. He was saying that levelling up materia is not a challenge because it doesn't require complex thought to accomplish, but rather long amounts of time. I personally have fun doing this, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Also, materia is not a challenge because if you spend time to level up the materia, your stats will also increase, and you therefore will have good enough stats to counter the materia's effect. If you don't bother to level up the materia, you can still just equip it minimally and beat the crap out of the bosses easily, because characters' natural statistics mean nearly nothing. You know, arguing for both sides is really weird.

But I wasn't saying that leveling up materia was the challenge and where did smokey say anything about stats and materia in his post.

And the reason some of my posts are better than others is becuase I type them in MS Word which makes things look nicer and has spelling and grammar check. The ones that aren't better are becuase they are just quick little responses that I type in quick response and don't really check.

I don't know how MS Word improves your argument. It seems that there are times when you are merely restating yourself over and over and over again. Other times you are actually making a point. I don't know, but does anyone else think this is weird?

Hey guys, you guys are arguing about how stats change when you equip materia, but it isn't that big of a difference, so it isn't that much more of a challenge.

Uh chorns if you equip a summon materia it can decrease your max Hp from 6000 to 4000 and I don't know about you but thats a lot to me.

When you have that much HP, you shouldn't have to worry anyway. Plus, the summon usually more than makes up for your loss.

Uh chorns if you equip a summon materia it can decrease your max Hp from 6000 to 4000 and I don't know about you but thats a lot to me.

No it can't. The maximum HP down effect comes from KOTR, and that's only 10%. Therefore, if your max HP is 6000, KOTR will only bring it down to 5600. And that's KOTR, which if used basically kills any enemy other than the Emerald and Ruby weapons in one turn.

That 2000 hp can make a huge difference especially if its a boss that can do 5000 damage or somehthing like that so it is a challenge and it does make it harder. but really Hp is the only thing that is effected that is that noticable. I've just been saying that its one of the games challenges becuase smokey and prak were complaining about it and that if they had it there way that it would just make it less challenging which they obviously hate and wouldnt want.

And FF1withalltheives what if you have more than that summon equiped such as more summons and magics. Then look at the reduction.

I dont see the big deal..The only summon i equiped was the Knights of the Round..then the maxd out hp materia, hp was never a problem

That 2000 hp can make a huge difference especially if its a boss that can do 5000 damage or somehthing like that so it is a challenge and it does make it harder. but really Hp is the only thing that is effected that is that noticable. I've just been saying that its one of the games challenges becuase smokey and prak were complaining about it and that if they had it there way that it would just make it less challenging which they obviously hate and wouldnt want.

And FF1withalltheives what if you have more than that summon equiped such as more summons and magics. Then look at the reduction.

Why would you ever need more than one summon equipped? I never used summons other than KOTR, really. It just wasn't necessary. I mean, if you're in a fire cave or something and you know that the boss will be weak against ice you can equip Shiva, but other than that I don't see much point.

Yeah, and plus even if youy do lose all that HP, you have all those summons at your disposal and what with a couple good ol' HP Plusses you're good to go.

But you have to agree that the stat reductions do make the game more challenging. I mean could you imagine how easy it would be without them?

No, actually they do not change the difficulty of the game at all. In fact, I never pay attention to the stat changes when playing FFVII and equipping materia, just a waste of time. Smokey's right though, in the end when you master it doesn't make any difference and there's nothing hard about mastering materia.

The game was too easy as it was. And you have to remember that there is a fine line between challenging and irritating. Of course, for me it was neither, because I just loaded my characters down with materia and levelled up like crazy. In fact, I exclusively used weapons and armor with double or triple growth until I had all the materia levelled up that I wanted. In the end, I think the materia system is just a matter of whether you like it or not. I mean, yes it does devalue the characters, but you get to choose characters based on your ridiculous whims rather than quality. What I can say is that materia lowering your stats didn't affect in any way how I equipped my materia.

And in the end for me, when I had all the materia the way I wanted and all of my stats at ridiculous levels, I found that there wasn't anything to do with those ridiculous stats.

You are right though about how it is nice to customize your characters. But its the people that hate the materia system for this reason but then go say the sphere grid is awesome that piss me off becuase when you think about it the sphere grid and materia are very similar when it comes to character customization.

I think the should have made the materia more like the espers on FFVI, That was the best skills system, especially for gogo.

Yeah, espers were definitely up there with the class/job system.

But the thing I didn't like with the job system was that you were constantly worrying if you had the right jobs at the right time.

All he's is talking about here is the first sentence he completely missed the point of the paragraph which was not "you can just go master the materia" but "materia is one of the challenges in FF7 and if you took away the status reductions it would remove the challenge and make it easy, which is obviously something you guys hate." So see he did miss the points.
First of all, I wish you would quote things correctly.

Second, about the materia. I'm just trying to make one thing very clear. Are you saying that mastering the materia is a challenge? Because I'm not going to respond to this statement if that's not what you are saying.


And the reason some of my posts are better than others is becuase I type them in MS Word which makes things look nicer and has spelling and grammar check. The ones that aren't better are becuase they are just quick little responses that I type in quick response and don't really check.
Uh, ok? Seriously, what does that have to do with anything?

No I was not saying that mastering materia is a challenge. I said that the stat reductions from the materia make the game more challenging.

Don't miss the fine line between challenging and irritating. I personally did not find the stat reductions irritating, but I didn't find them challenging either. If the materia stat changes made the game more challenging, it wasn't enough.

It all depended on how much materia you equiped. For instance as I got more Materia I equiped more of it becuase I wanted to be able to use more magics and summons so it really started to kill my stats. Then I started only equiping certain materia and then the challenge was knowing which materia to equip for certain battles.

If you're going to get person specific, then consider my game. I never used weapons or armor that didn't have double or triple growth if it was at all possible until I had three sets of master materia. Also, I had everyone loaded down with materia because I wanted to level it up. So, that cut my stats down by about 1/2 for a great deal of the game, and my def. stat was even more of a drawback when the rune armlet started becoming really sucky compared to everything else. Despite that, I would beat the crap out of bosses with my extremely well-levelled-up magic. This is why you don't consider specific games in how difficult the game is because some people, like myself, play ridiculously.

And thats what I meant by the player defines the difficulty.

No, the player merely has the ability to alter the natural difficulty through playing style. The game's actual difficulty stays the same. And by your own admission, the game is easy on that level.

You just said what I've been trying to say with just more words!

So what exactly was the whole point of that?

I've been trying to say a games difficulty depends on the player, he kept saying it didn't, and now he just said it does.

He did and he didn't... You were both right in a way and miscommunicating. He was saying that even though difficulty is subjective, there is still a basic difficulty level that the game has, and you interpereted it as there is no variation in difficulty. I'm not going to say it's anyone's fault, but there was a miscommunication. So why is this thread still going?

Cause Trekkie is determined to prove us wrong for some reason.

So why is this thread still going?

I often wonder how the one I made is still around, considering I made it 5 months ago and there is very little progression in the discussion.

Oh, but RM, we discuss both sides of the argument/discussion here.

More like talk in circles. :P

You are right, we are talking in circles, but Trekkie doesn't want to give up...

You guys just won't except that a lot of people like the game for good reasons that contradict yours and that we can have just as convincing arguments as you.

Except you are wrong, they are not as convincing, and I know several other people who would agree with me. I don't really think there's any reason to drag this topic along anymore.

hear hear

You guys just won't except that a lot of people like the game for good reasons that contradict yours and that we can have just as convincing arguments as you.

Show me where anyone said that there weren't good reasons that people liked the game.

and chorns i know tons of people who agree that the fanboys arguments are as convining as yours if not more.

Public opinion most certainly is not objective. Almost all FFVII fans will be biased toward the arguments on their own side. FFVII's popularity has been explained thoroughly already, so I will not bother to go in to that. And you still haven't given me an example...

and chorns i know tons of people who agree that the fanboys arguments are as convining as yours if not more.
Oh really? Have these tons of people read all of these arguments and debates?

I don't think so.