First of all, let me state that when this game came out it was the sole reason for me getting a Playstation. I had been neglecting getting the new system because the SNES was all I really needed for entertainment at that point. However, Square made the jump to the �next generation� of consoles via Sony, and that meant that if I wanted to continue to play one of the best (no, not the best, ONE of the best) video game series I had to shell out the money. I�ll admit, when I first played FFVII I was overwhelmed with the dramatic difference graphics wise. I would be foolish to argue against FFVII being the visually superior game to its predecessors. The fact is that the earlier FFs can�t hold a candle to it graphics wise in many regards, but they shouldn�t be able to in ANY way because the Playstation is just a much more powerful console then the NES and the SNES.

However, that is where the superiority of FFVII to the earlier Final Fantasies ends. The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don�t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it. A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I�m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven�t played it). Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger). FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story. Ok, so it was not innovative as far as the story goes, what about the battle and materia system you ask?

It is pretty much a given that the battle system was not new at all. Just about every single Final Fantasy (or even RPG for that matter) had followed a similar formula before that, and I would hope that no one would argue that point further. Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called �innovative�. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your �limit� you are no longer able to use the �fight� command. This makes it a pain to save the limit. You either use another command or skip your turn. Later on in the game this might not be a huge problem due to the fact that more command materia becomes available. However, in the early stages you pretty much have 4 options: use your limit, use magic, use an item, or skip that character�s turn. Using magic would not be a smart idea because then you may not have it for later battles when you really need it, the same holds true for using an item. Using your limit is often times undesirable because it means you will just be using it on an enemy you could much easier defeat by attacking normally, and skipping turns is always a horrid choice because you�re basically brought down to a 2-person party. This is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. I repeat, this is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. What is the limit system then? Flawed. Even later in the game your characters shouldn�t HAVE to have another command that they can use in order to not worry about using their limit.

As for the materia system, it�s not a bad system, but I don�t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game. The only thing that is really unique about any one member of the party is their limit breaks, which I already discussed. Besides, there isn�t really anything �unique� about the limits anyway, but I digress. As said, the materia system makes the game far too easy by allowing every character to use every command and spell in the game. If you want a real challenge then you need a game where each character has unique abilities that are melded with the rest of the party in order to make a fully functioning unit. NOT a system where every damn member of the party can have the exact same materia and just flick away any enemy you see without any effort. That�s not a challenge game, that�s a game being made for simpletons.

There was nothing new about the gameplay other than the fact that the camera angle could be changed on the world map, which just goes back to the graphics and �visually appealing� comments I made before, so I won�t bother touching on that.

So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!� The answer to that is simple. First of all, the game was marketed to all hell. It was the first Final Fantasy, or role playing game for that matter, that I remember actually seeing ads for on the TV. There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII. Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV. It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG�s or had the mindset of �RPG�s are for nerds�. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.

As if that weren�t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn�t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game. Just flip from page to page until the game was done. For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn�t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn�t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own. Then a family member got me one just because, I still don�t know why. I decided I might as well go back through with it and see if there was anything I missed. Know what I missed? Two treasure chests. One had a Phoenix Down in it and the other had an Elixir. I hope that will serve as proof that you do not need a strategy guide to play this game because it IS NOT a hard game to play.

Now, back to what I was saying. Because the game was incredibly easy to play/beat, had a very shallow story line (making it very easy to follow), was marketed more than any game previously, and had graphics that were superior to anything at the time (which helped cover up the crappiness of the game), Final Fantasy VII was a huge success. This game was <I>not</I> a smash hit due to being a good game, because it wasn�t a good game. It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That�s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you�re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series.

Nice knowing ya. :-*

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
<B>The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don�t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it.</B>
I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I'm older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.


<B>Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I�m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well.</B>
Aeris' death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn't make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party's resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.


<B>Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven�t played it).</B>
There is a big difference between Aeris, and the twins. When Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves, they <I>knew</I> that it was going to stop the wall, and thus, save their companions lives. When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't <I>know</I> if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Palom and Porom's did though.


<B>Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger).</B>
I don't see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Crono gave it all he had to try and defeat Lavos the first time, but he paid for it, by vanishing into thin air. Everyone knew where Cloud was after he was rescued from the Life Stream. But, Crono could have been anywhere. That is far more dramatic.


<B>As for the materia system, it�s not a bad system, but I don�t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game.</B>
I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it's a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you.


<B>Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV.</B>
Yeah, like all two or three of them.


<B>It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG�s or had the mindset of �RPG�s are for nerds�. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.</B>
Also, FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, <I>because</I> it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it.


<B>As if that weren�t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn�t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game.</B>
Just imagine how much more popular FFIV and FFVI would have been if official strategy guides were released along with the game.

I mean really, imagine. These two games, which are in fact <I>better</I> than FFVII, would become only more popular.


<B>For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn�t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn�t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own.</B>
Same here. I didn't actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.

Also, another thing. All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don't even need it to beat the game. I don't understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR.


<B>This game was <I>not</I> a smash hit due to being a good game, because it wasn�t a good game. It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That�s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you�re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series. </B>
And, it was a smash hit because the game manipulated it's fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.

I'm also sick and tired of all these FFVII nuts. Most of them don't even provide explanations with why they love this game, or why they think Sephiroth is the greatest villian ever. That pisses me off more than anything.

So yes, if you are going to argue against Rabid Monkey, good luck.

Well its all an opinion...

You say the story is shallow, I say the story is indeed not with extreme strange twists and turns all the time and you dont have to think what is going on but I have never experienced that from any other FF�s (but I must admit I never played 1 through 6). Furthermore I dont mind that the story is "simple" in the way that you dont have to think about it, why should that be?

The Limit system was designed this way on purpose I think, I guess they wanted it that it is not possible to store your limit break meter. And its not really an argument why a whole game is bad....

The materia system I must say was pretty cool. And again I dont need a level up system with unique abilities for characters bla bla..

And yes the game was pretty easy I finished it without a guide as well and didnt miss that much as far as I can remember (I dont think I only missed an elixir and a phoenix down, probably a bit more) but I liked the game.

It is just a matter of opinion, I dont get it that you can say that it IS a bad game because that is YOUR vision of it.

So you can say your opinion of the game is that its bad but I dont see how you can say that because so many people think it is a great game and well if so many people say that it probably has a little truth in it right???

And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! (and if someone must look at the posts as an admin or moderator then ask someone else to do that and not you in the FF7 forum)

Ow and about KOTR you use it for ruby and emerald weapon, and if you say why would you beat it? well why do people play games? because they like to do it, and well I liked to kill those weapons and so I did. Thats why!!

Originally posted by Brein
And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! Did he say "You guys can't/shouldn't enjoy FF7" or "These are my reasons for believing FF7 to be a bad game"?

Originally posted by Brein
<B>You say the story is shallow, I say the story is indeed not with extreme strange twists and turns all the time and you dont have to think what is going on but I have never experienced that from any other FF�s (but I must admit I never played 1 through 6). Furthermore I dont mind that the story is "simple" in the way that you dont have to think about it, why should that be?</B>
That's another reason why FFVII is considered the greatest of the series. Because most of the fans of the game have never even played 1-6.

And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.


<B>The materia system I must say was pretty cool. And again I dont need a level up system with unique abilities for characters bla bla..</B>
Again, another statement without reasoning behind it.

Each character should have their own unique abilites. Otherwise, the game becomes stale rather quickly.


<B>It is just a matter of opinion, I dont get it that you can say that it IS a bad game because that is YOUR vision of it.</B>
And the same could be said about you. I don't get why you can say it's a good game, because that is your vision of it. So, there really is no point in making that statement.


<B>So you can say your opinion of the game is that its bad but I dont see how you can say that because so many people think it is a great game and well if so many people say that it probably has a little truth in it right???</B>
Not really. Most of the FFVII fans are just blind to what <I>really</I> made the game popular.


<B>And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! (and if someone must look at the posts as an admin or moderator then ask someone else to do that and not you in the FF7 forum)</B>
Him or I never said that you weren't allowed to share why you like this game or not. So where did you come off with that? Also, this forum is about discussion, just like every other one. So, if I read something that I didn't agree with, I would share my two cents about it. That is discussion.

Originally posted by Smokey

And the same could be said about you. I don't get why you can say it's a good game, because that is your vision of it. So, there really is no point in making that statement.


I never said it IS a good game I just think it is a good game, thats my opinion.


Originally posted by Smokey

Him or I never said that you weren't allowed to share why you like this game or not. So where did you come off with that? Also, this forum is about discussion, just like every other one. So, if I read something that I didn't agree with, I would share my two cents about it. That is discussion.

That I said to rabid monkey not you...



I guess the bottom line is that there are people like me that liked the game and people like you that dont. If you cannot accept that then thats sad...

Originally posted by Smokey
Aeris' death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn't make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party's resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.


There is a big difference between Aeris, and the twins. When Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves, they <I>knew</I> that it was going to stop the wall, and thus, save their companions lives. When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't <I>know</I> if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Palom and Porom's did though.

But... that's the whole point of plot twists. It's the same with the twins in FFIV. They didn't just go "Well, they saved us, fuck them now!" The rest of the story WAS about making sure their sacrifice wasn't in vain, however, unlike FF7 they didn't outright say that every 5 scenes. Hence adding to the simplistic storyline of FF7. Also, I fail to see how the twins turning to stone somehow promises any more success than Areis dying does...


Also, FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, <I>because</I> it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it.

Exactly. Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing, but that was basically one of my points all the same.


Just imagine how much more popular FFIV and FFVI would have been if official strategy guides were released along with the game.

From what I've been told they did have them. However, they weren't marketed WITH the game as kind of a join purchase.



Originally posted by Brein
You say the story is shallow, I say the story is indeed not with extreme strange twists and turns all the time and you dont have to think what is going on but I have never experienced that from any other FF�s (but I must admit I never played 1 through 6). Furthermore I dont mind that the story is "simple" in the way that you dont have to think about it, why should that be?

That's because all the FF's for the Playstation and PS2 are made with the same intentions of FFVII. I didn't bother mentioning them, but the fact is they get progressively worse in a lot of respects once Square hits the Playstation.

As for why it should matter, last I checked you play RPG's for the story, not the flashy graphics. That's why.


The Limit system was designed this way on purpose I think, I guess they wanted it that it is not possible to store your limit break meter. And its not really an argument why a whole game is bad....

It was a very annoying system. What is the point of having a limit break if you HAVE to use it right when you get it? Also, I was presenting that as part of my case, not my whole case. I would thank you not to treat it as my entire argument.


The materia system I must say was pretty cool. And again I dont need a level up system with unique abilities for characters bla bla..

Well yeah, it's a cool concept, but that doesn't make it a good one.


It is just a matter of opinion, I dont get it that you can say that it IS a bad game because that is YOUR vision of it.

So I'm not allowed to have an opinion on it just because you don't get why I think it isn't a good game?


So you can say your opinion of the game is that its bad but I dont see how you can say that because so many people think it is a great game and well if so many people say that it probably has a little truth in it right???

No. You see, here is the difference between what I said and what you're saying right there. I explained why I think it is a bad game; you basically said "well everyone else likes it so you should too". Feel free to insert a comment about how a bunch of people are jumping off a bridge here.


And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! (and if someone must look at the posts as an admin or moderator then ask someone else to do that and not you in the FF7 forum)

That's one hell of a double standard to set. You're basically saying that I'm only allowed to express my opinion if it is the exact same opinion as yours, or anyone else that likes FF7. Personally I think that makes you a hypocrite because you're saying that I can't deny you of your opinion, which I didn't, but you would deny me of mine because I don't like FF7.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
<B>But... that's the whole point of plot twists. It's the same with the twins in FFIV. They didn't just go "Well, they saved us, fuck them now!" The rest of the story WAS about making sure their sacrifice wasn't in vain, however, unlike FF7 they didn't outright say that every 5 scenes. Hence adding to the simplistic storyline of FF7. Also, I fail to see how the twins turning to stone somehow promises any more success than Areis dying does...</B>
Yeah. Palom and Porom's sacrifice wasn't nearly as big as an event as Aeris' death, but it was a lot more dramatic IMO. Too much importance was put on the end of Aeris in the game. I guess it promises more success, because of when the events took place during the game. When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them. However, with the twins, their journey was just beginning. So I just find it to be more important that they sacrificed themselves, more than what Aeris did. Also, I just think it's more meaningful because Cecil had recently become a Paladin. Palom and Porom were putting their trust into his hands, which were stained with blood not too long ago. That is what really struck me about it.


<B>Exactly. Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing, but that was basically one of my points all the same.</B>
I'm agreeing with you. It's just that I'm trying to further strengthen that specific point.


<B>From what I've been told they did have them. However, they weren't marketed WITH the game as kind of a join purchase.</B>
Yes, they are available. But it's not like they were sitting on the shelves right alongside the game. If they were however, then those two games would have been more popular.


<I>Originally posted by Brein</I>
<B>I never said it IS a good game I just think it is a good game, thats my opinion.</B>
That is the same exact thing! You're saying that you <I>think</I> it's a good game, but you won't actually <I>say</I> it's a good game? Now I understand, because it makes perfect sense!


<B>That I said to rabid monkey not you...</B>
Yeah, I know that. But when you look at it, your statement is aimed at everyone who agrees with Rabid Monkey. And that includes me.


<B>I guess the bottom line is that there are people like me that liked the game and people like you that dont. If you cannot accept that then thats sad...</B>
What the fuck are you talking about? I know that there are people who do and don't like the game. I don't have to agree with their opinions, but I do accept them. What's sad is that you are being a hypocrite about the whole thing, because you won't accept the fact that there are people like me who don't like the game.


<B>If you dont like it that is ofcourse fine by me, and im not even gonna argue anymore cause its pointless argueing with people over internet without sitting around the table and saying it face to face cause things only get interpreted wrong....

I say something and someone else thinks I say something else cause its read differintly...

So lets just say I like FF7 and you dont. End of story (for me).</B>
No, we aren't interpreting anything wrong. All you have said is you like FFVII, and that we aren't allowed to say otherwise. There are so many people who claim that FFVII is such a good game, and I respect their opinions. But, when so many people fail to argue why they like it, that's the problem. If you are going to say your opinion, then state your cause, as well. That will earn them a lot more respect from me. Now, I still won't agree with them. But I will still respect the fact that they just don't say these baseless statements, and then run away when the pressure gets too high. That is the point of the argument; to see both sides of the story. So basically what you are doing is saying you like the game, without providing much support behind your posts.

Ok forget it..

If you dont like it that is ofcourse fine by me, and im not even gonna argue anymore cause its pointless argueing with people over internet without sitting around the table and saying it face to face cause things only get interpreted wrong....

I say something and someone else thinks I say something else cause its read differintly...

So lets just say I like FF7 and you dont. End of story (for me).

We all ready have like five of these "FF7 Sucks" or "Your game sucks" threads and all of you FF7 haters have already said how much you think this game sucks many times so lay off just a bit.
It really is just your opinion on how the game is and stuff. There are alot of things (mostly movies) that have alot of hype and advertising around them and when they come out they are complete bombs... so don't use the hype factor as a reason why you think FF7 sucks.

Originally posted by Nanaki_Wolf
We all ready have like five of these "FF7 Sucks" or "Your game sucks" threads and all of you FF7 haters have already said how much you think this game sucks many times so lay off just a bit.
It really is just your opinion on how the game is and stuff. There are alot of things (mostly movies) that have alot of hype and advertising around them and when they come out they are complete bombs... so don't use the hype factor as a reason why you think FF7 sucks.
Another example of being a hypocrite. If you want all the FFVII haters to lay off, then I want all the FFVII lovers to lay off.

And no, there is no movie that was advertised as much as FFVII was back then.

Originally posted by Nanaki_Wolf
We all ready have like five of these "FF7 Sucks" or "Your game sucks" threads and all of you FF7 haters have already said how much you think this game sucks many times so lay off just a bit.
It really is just your opinion on how the game is and stuff. There are alot of things (mostly movies) that have alot of hype and advertising around them and when they come out they are complete bombs... so don't use the hype factor as a reason why you think FF7 sucks.

Way to not defend your point of view! Seriously, if the only thing people can come up with is "IT IS JUST YOUR OPINION" then it is kind of pointless to try and prove that I'm wrong. After all, I could say that FF7 being a good game is just your opinion, however, unlike me, you have done nothing to back it up.

*sigh* I tried not to make this a war....but whatever. you guys completely missed the point of my post. It really wasn't to defend FF7 but to just stop another one of these pointless FF7 sucks wars from starting again. they really don't go anywhere. No matter what anyone says people are still going to beleve what they beleve and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.


if the game was so linear, then anyone who decided not to stray of-course and visit old places and look around, would never have found the info about another species like Red 13, you never would have found out the whole story behind Zack, and it would have all been specualtion, plus, you never would have found lucreica (sp?) and have gotten Vincents best weapon or his final Limit Breaker, which to this day, is one of the better one's i've seen...and i have played all the games.

Also, if the game is so damn easy to beat, I would like to see how quickly you could make a Golden Chocobo to get KOFR aswell as discover the potentiel of the Huge Materia, or even that you could use it!

Also, as a final note, I do think this one one of the best games, but i also have reasons:

A) the story is far from linear, sure the game is easy to beat, but not if u try and get everything and do'nt miss anything...godd luck with that without a guide.

B)They didn't leave alot of things without answers, like red 13 and any others like him, the whole story about Zack, which also explains more about cloud's past, leading right up to before he walks in at the beginning of the game.

C) it does take a reasonable about of skill and creativity to get the materia working right, and as you said, it was easy, well, does that mean u only would have hated it more if you could keep your HP and gain the skill??? Come on

and D) Some of the areas had more things to offer, just like some of the older one's, but this offered it in a much different way, like, going back to Kalm after the weapons appear, speak to people, you will surprised with some of the missions you are sent on, they are hard, but the rewards are worth it.

So just like it was said, it's a double edge sword, don't bash people by saying they are not supporting why they like the game, your gunna need stronger points to convince some people that it's not a very good game...


but like it was said, it's all a matter of choice and personal view, and my view is......GREAT GAME!!!

Laterz
lone wolf

Originally posted by Smokey

No, we aren't interpreting anything wrong. All you have said is you like FFVII, and that we aren't allowed to say otherwise. There are so many people who claim that FFVII is such a good game, and I respect their opinions. But, when so many people fail to argue why they like it, that's the problem. If you are going to say your opinion, then state your cause, as well. That will earn them a lot more respect from me. Now, I still won't agree with them. But I will still respect the fact that they just don't say these baseless statements, and then run away when the pressure gets too high. That is the point of the argument; to see both sides of the story. So basically what you are doing is saying you like the game, without providing much support behind your posts.

First I dont need your respect, so I dont need to explain to you. Who are you to judge me?

I mean I dont like horseback riding, but I am not going to say agains people practising that that they may never talk about it and I dont care why they like it. I mean a lot of people dont know why they do some things the way they do it.

So still the bottom line is that I like the game and why, well I am not even gonna explain it to you because if I say I like the story you would just say it is simple or something and well that is your opinion and that I like the story is my opinion. I think these discussions can go on and on without being of some use so lets just stop it (or continue if you really like to do this, fine).

And that's exactly why threads like this onealways end up in some sort of war.
The stout FF7 fans simply say: "That's YOUR opinion, so shut up, I like the game but I am NOT telling YOU why!"

Isn't it possible to just talk - in a friendly way - about WHY you like the game, and maybe admit that yes, some parts are a bit dumb, and it's understandable that people who don't like this, or who prefer that, don't like FF7 too much.

If all you're going to yell is that "all you FF7 haters" should get out of this forum and leave the fans to their praising of the game.

Instead, tolerate that maybe there are people who actually want to talk about why they think FF7 isn't a very good game, and there is no other place to do this than the FF7 forum.
So if you are really unwilling to defend your opinion and explain WHY you think FF7 is good, and at the same time want to complain that people don't share your opinion and DARE share it, then do not post in here. :(

Originally posted by Nanaki_Wolf
*sigh* I tried not to make this a war....but whatever. you guys completely missed the point of my post. It really wasn't to defend FF7 but to just stop another one of these pointless FF7 sucks wars from starting again. they really don't go anywhere. No matter what anyone says people are still going to beleve what they beleve and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
This isn't a war Nanaki. This is an argument, and hopefully a debate soon. And you are still being hypocritical. You said you weren't trying to defend FFVII, but you were just trying to basically tell Rabid Monkey and I to shut up for not liking the game? And yes, these really don't go anywhere, because the FFVII fans almost always never are able to back up what they say. And about your last statement, that is not necessarily true either. I used to love FFVII when I played it through and beat it the first time. But that was years ago. Since then, I have read countless posts and articles about the problems with FFVII, what really made it popular, etc. And I have changed my stance on the game, because these people are right. I was one of the FFVII fanboys at one point, but I realized what truly made this game great. So, we aren't trying to persuade people to join us or anything like that. We are just expression our opinions.


<I>Originally posted by lone wolf</I>
<B>if the game was so linear, then anyone who decided not to stray of-course and visit old places and look around, would never have found the info about another species like Red 13, you never would have found out the whole story behind Zack, and it would have all been specualtion, plus, you never would have found lucreica (sp?) and have gotten Vincents best weapon or his final Limit Breaker, which to this day, is one of the better one's i've seen...and i have played all the games.</B>
Yeah, that is all true. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn't required to finish the game. It wasn't mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent's best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game.


<B>Also, if the game is so damn easy to beat, I would like to see how quickly you could make a Golden Chocobo to get KOFR aswell as discover the potentiel of the Huge Materia, or even that you could use it!</B>
Is that the best argument you can muster against the game being easy? It's a pretty bad one, I'll tell you that. Like I said before, you do not need the KOTR Summon to beat the game, or the Huge Materia. These two aspects of the game make it easier for you to finish it, but they in no way make it impossible to beat if you don't have the summon or Huge Materia. Also, last time I checked, you don't beat the game by making a Gold Chocobo or discovering the potential of the Huge Materia.


<B>A) the story is far from linear, sure the game is easy to beat, but not if u try and get everything and do'nt miss anything...godd luck with that without a guide.</B>
Give us reasons why the story is far from linear, and I will be more than happy to read them. And aren't you basically contradicting yourself when you say the game is easy? Just earlier, you said <I>if</I> the game is easy. That pretty much disregards your whole rant about getting KOTR and Huge Materia.


<B>B)They didn't leave alot of things without answers, like red 13 and any others like him, the whole story about Zack, which also explains more about cloud's past, leading right up to before he walks in at the beginning of the game.</B>
I hope you aren't saying this is something that makes the game so great.


<B>C) it does take a reasonable about of skill and creativity to get the materia working right, and as you said, it was easy, well, does that mean u only would have hated it more if you could keep your HP and gain the skill??? Come on</B>
I admit, that the materia system was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that's it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work the materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.


<B>D) Some of the areas had more things to offer, just like some of the older one's, but this offered it in a much different way, like, going back to Kalm after the weapons appear, speak to people, you will surprised with some of the missions you are sent on, they are hard, but the rewards are worth it.</B>
How does this game offer "things" in a much different way. Basically, every Final Fantasy game offers extra scenes or missions after a certain point in the game. So, I don't see how FFVII was much different from the rest of them.


<B>So just like it was said, it's a double edge sword, don't bash people by saying they are not supporting why they like the game, your gunna need stronger points to convince some people that it's not a very good game...</B>
What the heck are you talking about!? I said the materia system was a double-edged sword. And we aren't "bashing" people for not supporting their view. There have just been so many cases where FFVII fans cannot provide good arguments against FFVII non-fans. And you are saying we're the ones that need stronger points?


<B>First I dont need your respect, so I dont need to explain to you. Who are you to judge me?</B>
I never said you needed my respect. I said that I would respect people a lot more if they can provide a cogent argument. And yes, you do need to explain why you think FFVII is such a great game, if you really are that concerned about it.


<B>So still the bottom line is that I like the game and why, well I am not even gonna explain it to you because if I say I like the story you would just say it is simple or something and well that is your opinion and that I like the story is my opinion. I think these discussions can go on and on without being of some use so lets just stop it (or continue if you really like to do this, fine).</B>
When you say you won't explain it to us, that basically means "I like the game and all, but I'm not sure why I do. I just like it because everyone else does". If you are going to say this isn't true, then prove me wrong. We have already said the story is simple, and are still waiting for some FFVII fan to come along and try to prove us otherwise.

Originally posted by lone wolf
if the game was so linear, then anyone who decided not to stray of-course and visit old places and look around, would never have found the info about another species like Red 13, you never would have found out the whole story behind Zack, and it would have all been specualtion, plus, you never would have found lucreica (sp?) and have gotten Vincents best weapon or his final Limit Breaker, which to this day, is one of the better one's i've seen...and i have played all the games.

You're mistaking gameplay for storyline. Sure, it has side quests, but any half-decent RPG does. If having side quests makes a game a good RPG then Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II is an amazing RPG.


Also, if the game is so damn easy to beat, I would like to see how quickly you could make a Golden Chocobo to get KOFR aswell as discover the potentiel of the Huge Materia, or even that you could use it!

Just because you invest some time into a game doesn't make it hard to beat. Your logic is kind of flawed. If this were a true measure of how difficult games are then I could say that I played Diablo II for several years, therefore it must be the hardest game I ever played because I never spent more time on a single game before. However, that isn't the case at all and Diablo II was a relatively easy game when I played it. I think you need to put more thought into this.


A) the story is far from linear, sure the game is easy to beat, but not if u try and get everything and do'nt miss anything...godd luck with that without a guide.

Like I said, I didn't need a guide. However, like I already said in this post, you're confusing gameplay for storyline.


B)They didn't leave alot of things without answers, like red 13 and any others like him, the whole story about Zack, which also explains more about cloud's past, leading right up to before he walks in at the beginning of the game.

That was actually part of my point about how it is a pretty crappy story. They TELL you everything, there is nothing you have to figure out on your own, making it a shallow and weak storyline because you don't have to put any thought into what you're seeing happen. It's just all right there, black and white. If you're someone that needs everything explained to you then fine, say you like it because of that, but don't say it is a good story because of that.


C) it does take a reasonable about of skill and creativity to get the materia working right, and as you said, it was easy, well, does that mean u only would have hated it more if you could keep your HP and gain the skill??? Come on

I think you were going for "amount" there. Anyway, it doesn't. Know why? The strategy guide tells you all of the basic combinations, and most people don't even need that. It isn't complicated at all. All you do is put materia into the slots and tinker with the combinations till you have something you like. It really isn't that hard at all. If you have a hard time using it them you need to go back to playing Mario RPG or something.


and D) Some of the areas had more things to offer, just like some of the older one's, but this offered it in a much different way, like, going back to Kalm after the weapons appear, speak to people, you will surprised with some of the missions you are sent on, they are hard, but the rewards are worth it.

So wait. In your mind FF7 was the first game to have towns change as you went along? I have news for you. Halfway through FF6 THE ENTIRE WORLD CHANGES. In FF5 SOME OF THE WORLD GETS SUCKED AWAY. As the game progresses in FF5 a lot of towns change as well. To think that FF7 is the first game that ever gave you rewards for backtracking is just insane.


So just like it was said, it's a double edge sword, don't bash people by saying they are not supporting why they like the game, your gunna need stronger points to convince some people that it's not a very good game...

From what I've seen you're the one who needs stronger points.

Okay, I've tried to read all this thread through, and formulate some thoughts as to why I liked Final Fantasy VII back when I first bought and played it to death, but alas my views of the game have changed over the last year and a half.

For starters, Final Fantasy VII was the first Final Fantasy I played. Being from Europe, I had no chance of playing the first six without a net connection (that I didn't have.) Now, the game blew everything that I had previously seen out of the water. The graphics, for that time, were outstanding. Sure, the characters looked like badly drawn manga pictures, but the backgrounds were awe inspiring, and the FMVs pushed the Playstation to their limits.

The music also has some fantastic scores. One Winged Angel sticks out as a climatic and atmospheric tune to fight to. Aeris' Theme also is good. There are tracks that annoy the crap out of me (Corneo's Mansion, Honey Bee Inn, to name two that spring to mind.)

Being the first RPG I played that involved an active time battle system. As a new player to Role Playing Games, I found the materia system easy to pick up and yet flexible enough to customise your characters. It's possible to overload your characters with materia that lowers hit points and strength too much. If that happens, and you've got Barret trying to hit with his weapon when he's got low stats, you're going to be at a disadvantage. Okay, so most RPG veterans can get around this and work it out, I'll admit.

The thing that stands out most for me about the game is how long I played it for. There are a number of games that I played and could not put down. Morrowind, for one. Chrono Trigger, for another. Final Fantasy VII falls into that category. At 14, 15, I was addicted to the game. I would play it, complete it, go back to the start of the game, play again and find new things, complete it, play again and so on... I now have a save game that I've done all I can in it, and it took me about two years.

Another part of my reason for playing it to death was because of a friendly rivalry with my class mates. Final Fantasy VII is the ONLY game that I can recall talking to about to people I know in real life. We'd have conversations during Science classes, discussing the game and various parts of the storyline. Yeah, so we were FF7 fanatics in a real life sense, but it was still a good way to pass the time rather than getting bored about Photosynthesis.

Now, for the reasons why the game isn't that great. Having played it, I wanted to look back on the series. Imagine my excitement when Final Fantasy VI became available. The chance to see the roots of the series. I played it, and I loved every second of the game.

I also played V and IV, and IV quickly became one of my favourite games. The storyline was definitely stunning in the game, with more drive than in other versions I had played. The characters all had a part to play, and none of them annoyed me, ala Cait Sith / Irvine / Quina in the other games. The story in VI also has better twists, keeping us guessing on the villain in a decent way, and building up to the gradual revelation of who he is and how he gets his power, rather than just sort of stumbling into place as in VII.

The subplots in VI are also better. Being able to piece together your party one by one and strengthening your chance of defeating Kefka at the end. I love that flexibility. Love it.

Anyways, VII is a good game, for the reasons I have listed. However, there are better games in the series, and better RPGs in general.

Originally posted by Bahamut ZERO
Sure, the characters looked like badly drawn manga pictures, but the backgrounds were awe inspiring, and the FMVs pushed the Playstation to their limits.

I actually had to comment on this because I was having a conversation with acpo and he brought up a good point. If you compare FFVII and FFVIII graphics wise, FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. So really, Square, apparently, didn't even try all that hard when it came to the graphics for FFVII. So yes, the graphics were better than what we were used to. However, they didn't really push the Playstion to its limit with FFVII.

Alrighty, I'm bored so I actually read through this entire thread and will now defend FFVII.


Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don�t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it. A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I�m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven�t played it). Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger). FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story.

So it's not Shakespear or The Godfather, I'll give you that but FFVII still has a good story to it, not great but solid. There were plenty of plot twists having to do with the nature of Cloud and Sephiroth which I found interesting, and then there's the Shinra Corporation with the seperate ambitions of the President, Rufus, and the Turks. A good portion of the supporting cast had their stories come to a halt at a certain point in the game and then they were kinda just along for the ride, and that's not a good thing. About the game shoving the story in your mouth and not giving you any room to think, that's a bit harsh, there were hints along the way before the game flat out told you what's going on. I'd also say the story is far from linear, I can see how the gameplay could be considered linear, but as far as story goes there are plenty of side tracks and tangents (I know you never said the story is linear in this quote, but I remember that being an arguement somewhere in this thread). Also FFVII has the most open ended ending of any FF I've played, leaving you plenty of room to contemplate the fate of the world (that is until FFVII:AC comes out, but that's a completely different topic).


It is pretty much a given that the battle system was not new at all. Just about every single Final Fantasy (or even RPG for that matter) had followed a similar formula before that, and I would hope that no one would argue that point further. Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called �innovative�. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your �limit� you are no longer able to use the �fight� command. This makes it a pain to save the limit. You either use another command or skip your turn. Later on in the game this might not be a huge problem due to the fact that more command materia becomes available. However, in the early stages you pretty much have 4 options: use your limit, use magic, use an item, or skip that character�s turn. Using magic would not be a smart idea because then you may not have it for later battles when you really need it, the same holds true for using an item. Using your limit is often times undesirable because it means you will just be using it on an enemy you could much easier defeat by attacking normally, and skipping turns is always a horrid choice because you�re basically brought down to a 2-person party. This is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. I repeat, this is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. What is the limit system then? Flawed. Even later in the game your characters shouldn�t HAVE to have another command that they can use in order to not worry about using their limit.

I agree with your first point, this is a tried and true battle system, basically the battle system of FFVI with a few new tricks. However the Limit system is hardly flawed. Limit breaks in FFVII are meant to be powerful attacks that a character can use when they get enraged enough, each time the character takes damage they get madder and madder until eventually they can't take it anymore and are able to release that anger in the form of an uber attack. It simply doesn't make sense to be able to save an attack for later use when it's based on the character being in a heated state of passion.


As for the materia system, it�s not a bad system, but I don�t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game. The only thing that is really unique about any one member of the party is their limit breaks, which I already discussed. Besides, there isn�t really anything �unique� about the limits anyway, but I digress. As said, the materia system makes the game far too easy by allowing every character to use every command and spell in the game. If you want a real challenge then you need a game where each character has unique abilities that are melded with the rest of the party in order to make a fully functioning unit. NOT a system where every damn member of the party can have the exact same materia and just flick away any enemy you see without any effort. That�s not a challenge game, that�s a game being made for simpletons.

Unless you invest an obscene amount of time into leveling materia you can't have every member of your party use every command that you've acquired at any point in the game. Yes every character can use every spell (much like FFVI's Esper system, no?), as well as every special command. This does not however make every character a cookie cutter until end game (where many people put in that obscene time investment), it's simply not a good idea to give Aeris or Vincent cover materia, or load Barret up with every spell you have. Overall I found the materia system to be very solid, the only gripe I have with it has to do with HP plus and MP plus materia of which I agree the game would have been more challenging without, but that does not ruin the whole system. Of course the set role vs cutomization of characters is a matter of prefference (I prefer the FFTactics way of going about this issue myself, but that's not what this is about). As far as FFVII being made for simpletons goes, simpletons don't like to read they just wanna kill things, in the rpg world I'd say FFVIII or FFX have a bigger problem where you can just use summons go breeze through most bosses.


There was nothing new about the gameplay other than the fact that the camera angle could be changed on the world map, which just goes back to the graphics and �visually appealing� comments I made before, so I won�t bother touching on that.

No, there wasn't much new about the gameplay (unless you count minigames in this category), but old gameplay does not equal bad gameplay. Actually now that I think about it the gameplay in the FF series has remained pretty stagnant from FFIV up until FFX, that's six games of the same solid gameplay if we criticize FFVII for this we should apply the same criticism to FFV-FFIX.


So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!� The answer to that is simple. First of all, the game was marketed to all hell. It was the first Final Fantasy, or role playing game for that matter, that I remember actually seeing ads for on the TV. There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII. Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV. It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG�s or had the mindset of �RPG�s are for nerds�. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.

Is this still the most popular? I had thought FFX overtook it. Yeah FFVII was the first FF I saw a tv comercial for too, but I had decided to buy it when I first saw a preview for it in one of the game mags months before they started showing comercials. Although this is not the first rpg, or the first squaresoft game for that matter that I saw tv comercials for. Secret of Evermore would hold that title, and I believe those comercials were shown on MTV too, so even back in the SNES days square was trying to get away from the "videogames are for nerds" or "rpgs are for nerds" (which I should add still seemed to have that stigma after FFVII came out), and before you say it I know Secret of Evermore was an action rpg, but that's still an rpg. Of course square showed the in game movies in the commercials, they've done the same with every FF afterwards and most other game companies do the same thing, it's just good business to show the best looking part of your product on tv, hollywood is guilty of the same thing. Even after my rebuttle on this point I fail to see how a marketing strategy has any bearing on wether or not a game is good. As far as your last line in the above quote goes, yes this is a nice game, fairly easy (I find that almost all console rpgs are), but certainly required some thought, even pong requires some thought.


As if that weren�t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn�t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game. Just flip from page to page until the game was done. For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn�t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn�t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own. Then a family member got me one just because, I still don�t know why. I decided I might as well go back through with it and see if there was anything I missed. Know what I missed? Two treasure chests. One had a Phoenix Down in it and the other had an Elixir. I hope that will serve as proof that you do not need a strategy guide to play this game because it IS NOT a hard game to play.

Once again I don't see a connection between the release of a strategy guide and the quality of the game. It's not like FFVII is the first FF to do this either, I've personally seen an original guide to FFVI that's been around since the release of that game. If we use something like a strategy guide as valid criticism then I can say just about every NES/SNES game suffers from the same because of the nintendo help line where you payed per minute to have someone tell you what to do (other games companies probably had/have a similar service).


It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That�s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you�re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series.

Knew any better than what? Many people were fans of the series from the SNES and wanted to play the next installment. Others saw something they liked on tv and decided to go out and buy it, big deal, almost all of modern western society is based on that concept. If I were to give one reason for this game being such a success and even seven years after it's release gaining new fans (when all marketing has stopped) that reason would be simple word of mouth.


If you compare FFVII and FFVIII graphics wise, FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. So really, Square, apparently, didn't even try all that hard when it came to the graphics for FFVII. So yes, the graphics were better than what we were used to. However, they didn't really push the Playstion to its limit with FFVII.

Of course later games are going to have better graphics. FFVII was square's first game on the playstation and it's only natural that the graphics will get better as time goes on and developers learn the ins and outs and neat little tricks a system can do. It's not that they didn't try hard, look at every other game released before or around the same date as FFVII, at least 95% of those games will have worse graphics than FFVII.



People have been complaining of the lack of quality responses by FFVII fans, I hope I've rectified that situation.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I actually had to comment on this because I was having a conversation with acpo and he brought up a good point. If you compare FFVII and FFVIII graphics wise, FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. So really, Square, apparently, didn't even try all that hard when it came to the graphics for FFVII. So yes, the graphics were better than what we were used to. However, they didn't really push the Playstion to its limit with FFVII.

Okay, maybe I should've phrased myself better by saying that they pushed the limits of the Playstation with their current knowledge and comfort zone with the console.

The graphics of FFVI were better than the ones in IV, and they were on the same console. People learn new tricks and have new technologies available to them as they get to know the console.

A minor argument, really. I know the characters could've looked better.

Well, in my opinion, FFVII, is an overrated game. It didn't SUCK, indeed, but it is very overrated and recieves far too much credit than is due.
The graphics when compared to FFVIII and FFIX are absolutely rubbish. But, still, it was an outbreak in PlayStatin history when it came out. The graphics were COOL in 1997 when it first came out.


What did it for me was the storyline. I wouldn't consider it weak at all. Nor would i ocnsider the FFVIII storyline weak. The FFIX storyline was the weakest out of the three.
In fact the storyline for FFVII was very meaningful. I really could feel for Cloud and co. and once you got into it, the storyline fitted into place nicely.

The materia system had its good and bad points. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduced your maximum HP by 20%. And unless you have mastered the 'all' materia, the HP and MP plus materia weren't cheap.

Back, to the storyline. I didn;t really see any corniness to it, or un-origninalness either.

Back to summons, Square went REAL wrong here.

While on VI, VIII and IX your espers/GF;s and Eidolons increased in Power, those on VII did not. Shiva and Ifrit being crap towards the end of the game, doing just 400 damage on average.

I also disliked the weapon/stat relationship. Although this is a popular method used on many, i would prefer to have had the freedom to personalise my stats rateher than have them fixed.

Lastly i will go for the freedom.

Once you have the Highwind, there are numerous things that you can do, form fighting the 3 wepoans to doing the Chocobo quest, it was very fun and exciting to do.

Yo!

Originally posted by Durendal
There were plenty of plot twists having to do with the nature of Cloud and Sephiroth which I found interesting, and then there's the Shinra Corporation with the seperate ambitions of the President, Rufus, and the Turks.

I personally didn't find the "plot twists" between Clound and Seph to be all that interesting, but more predictable than anything. As for Shinra, you really don't see enough of any of their respective characters to get into the story. Again, that just adds to the story basically being handed to you at face value. There is no more, and no less, than what is said directly to the person playing the game, which makes the story weak.


A good portion of the supporting cast had their stories come to a halt at a certain point in the game and then they were kinda just along for the ride, and that's not a good thing.

Thanks for brining that up, I totally forgot about it.


About the game shoving the story in your mouth and not giving you any room to think, that's a bit harsh, there were hints along the way before the game flat out told you what's going on.

First, the longest I can remember going without it actually flat out telling me what was happening is 5 minutes. Second, the fact that it DOES tell you EVERYTHING at some point was the main point I was trying to make, not just that some information isn't delayed enough.


I'd also say the story is far from linear, I can see how the gameplay could be considered linear, but as far as story goes there are plenty of side tracks and tangents (I know you never said the story is linear in this quote, but I remember that being an arguement somewhere in this thread).

You're making the same mistake lone wolf made. You're confusing gameplay and storyline. The gameplay isn't linear because of side quests and such, but the story IS.


Also FFVII has the most open ended ending of any FF I've played, leaving you plenty of room to contemplate the fate of the world (that is until FFVII:AC comes out, but that's a completely different topic).

The ending is the one thing I thought needed more of an explanation. It was basically just a cop out so that Square wouldn't have to come up with an ending. That way it is "artistic" and "open for interpretation" rather than possibly having people hate it. After pretty much spelling out EVERYTHING in the game it doesn't make sense to have such an open ending. The fact is that, like I said, it is a horrid ending that they didn't put any effort into.

]
Limit breaks in FFVII are meant to be powerful attacks that a character can use when they get enraged enough, each time the character takes damage they get madder and madder until eventually they can't take it anymore and are able to release that anger in the form of an uber attack. It simply doesn't make sense to be able to save an attack for later use when it's based on the character being in a heated state of passion.

You see an innovative system. Know what I see? A poor excuse (that being "well they get mad") so that Square didn't have to work all the bugs out in a flawed system.


Yes every character can use every spell (much like FFVI's Esper system, no?), as well as every special command. This does not however make every character a cookie cutter...

Yes it does. Any character can play whatever role you want them to be; just as the cookie dough can take the shape of whatever cookie you want it to. Sounds like the term "cookie-cutter" fits to me.

Also, I didn't like that part of FFVI, to be honest. Also, at least in FFVI they all had their own unique abilities that often times were more powerful than the magic that they could use, so brining the magic system of FFVI up really isn't valid. If you�re going to say something about the limit system in FFVII, don�t bother. They weren�t abilities you could just use whenever you wanted and because they were a one time use only sort of deal, it really didn�t add or subtract much from the character.


As far as FFVII being made for simpletons goes, simpletons don't like to read they just wanna kill things, in the rpg world I'd say FFVIII or FFX have a bigger problem where you can just use summons go breeze through most bosses.

Every FF has a way to do that, and most RPG's do. FFVII requires less thought than most RPG's because of how easily you can make a character be whatever you need at the time, completely removing the challenge of having to think about who you should have in your party.


No, there wasn't much new about the gameplay (unless you count minigames in this category), but old gameplay does not equal bad gameplay. Actually now that I think about it the gameplay in the FF series has remained pretty stagnant from FFIV up until FFX, that's six games of the same solid gameplay if we criticize FFVII for this we should apply the same criticism to FFV-FFIX.

One point I have to make and one aspect of what I said that I have to clear up. First, FFVII was far from the first RPG to have mini-games so to say that they were "new" starting with FFVII is laughable. Also, I never said that I was criticizing the battle system or the gameplay, I was more or cutting everyone that might say, "well the battle system and gameplay were new" off at the pass. I have nothing wrong with either, aside from the limit system and the materia system.


Although this is not the first rpg, or the first squaresoft game for that matter that I saw tv comercials for.

Note that I said "There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII". My point wasn't that it was on tv, but that it was on tv so much.


...and before you say it I know Secret of Evermore was an action rpg, but that's still an rpg.

Actually, I wasn't going to. Moving on...


Of course square showed the in game movies in the commercials, they've done the same with every FF afterwards and most other game companies do the same thing, it's just good business to show the best looking part of your product on tv, hollywood is guilty of the same thing. Even after my rebuttle on this point I fail to see how a marketing strategy has any bearing on wether or not a game is good. As far as your last line in the above quote goes, yes this is a nice game, fairly easy (I find that almost all console rpgs are), but certainly required some thought, even pong requires some thought.

I guess you didn't pick up on the fact that I was moving away from how I think the game is bad and more to why I believe it was (and is) so popular. Let me explain. It is common practice in writing to introduce new ideas with a topic sentence in a new paragraph. In this case mine was, "So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!�". This meant that I intended to answer that question to anyone that wished to bring up that point for future discussion. I hope that clarifies what I was actually talking about in said paragraph and why I brought up said strategy guide. I wasn't trying to say why I thought the game was bad, but rather giving examples as to why I thought it was such a popular game while believing that it isn't a very good game.


Once again I don't see a connection between the release of a strategy guide and the quality of the game.

See my previous remark.


It's not like FFVII is the first FF to do this either, I've personally seen an original guide to FFVI that's been around since the release of that game. If we use something like a strategy guide as valid criticism then I can say just about every NES/SNES game suffers from the same because of the nintendo help line where you payed per minute to have someone tell you what to do (other games companies probably had/have a similar service).

I was basically saying that it was the first game that had the strategy guide pretty much sold WITH it, which added to the number of people that played it because they didn't have to think. I was not using it as a direct criticism of the game itself, but rather some of the fan base. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.


Knew any better than what?

Than to believe it was a good game.


Of course later games are going to have better graphics. FFVII was square's first game on the playstation and it's only natural that the graphics will get better as time goes on and developers learn the ins and outs and neat little tricks a system can do. It's not that they didn't try hard, look at every other game released before or around the same date as FFVII, at least 95% of those games will have worse graphics than FFVII.

It was more just a clarification than anything else. The fact is that the system was/is capable of better graphics than were presented in FFVII, so it wasn't pushing the system "to the limit". My comment had nothing to do with the fact that FFVII had better graphics than a lot of the games at the time, or that it didn�t, just that its graphics weren�t the best the system could produce. I don't see how that is a hard concept to grasp.




SephirothBizzaro, one question before I comment on anything you've said. What are the RPG's you've played?

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I personally didn't find the "plot twists" between Clound and Seph to be all that interesting, but more predictable than anything. As for Shinra, you really don't see enough of any of their respective characters to get into the story. Again, that just adds to the story basically being handed to you at face value. There is no more, and no less, than what is said directly to the person playing the game, which makes the story weak.


So because you personally didn't find the plot twists between Cloud and Sephiroth to be interesting that autimatically makes them bad? Also you ctiticize the game for flat out telling you what's going on, then when a sub story with Shinra is thrown in where the game leaves enough room for the players to make their own inferences about the supporting characters you say there isn't enough story. I should also note that we see more of the Shinra than just about every other FF villain from the pre-playstation games. One of the reasons you might find the story predictable is that you're analyzing it 7 years after you first expreinced the story, everything is clearer in hindsight. I'll give you that it's not the most original story ever, this is the classic girl in distress scenario with a few tweaks, but that does not make it a bad story.


First, the longest I can remember going without it actually flat out telling me what was happening is 5 minutes. Second, the fact that it DOES tell you EVERYTHING at some point was the main point I was trying to make, not just that some information isn't delayed enough.

I seem to remember hints at what is to come being given to the player much longer than 5 minutes before the forshadowed event happens. Just because the game lets the player know what's going on does not translate to a bad story, what it does produce is a coherent story instead of a disjointed series of events. Of course the main problem we have here is that both of us are going off of memory, and unless we both play through FFVII again this is difficult problem to work around.


You're making the same mistake lone wolf made. You're confusing gameplay and storyline. The gameplay isn't linear because of side quests and such, but the story IS.

I'm not confusing storyline and gameplay. The gameplay is a pretty straight forward point A to point B affair until the highwind comes into play. The story evolves from a fight against a corrupt corporation to finding out the motives of Sephiroth, and culminates in a final showdown for revenge/save the planet. With plenty of side stories along the way having to do with the supporting characters and the Shinra. Linear story would have you fighting the Shrinra as the main enemy from the begining to end game. The final goals of the characters shift several times during the course of the story, which makes the story non-linear.


The ending is the one thing I thought needed more of an explanation. It was basically just a cop out so that Square wouldn't have to come up with an ending. That way it is "artistic" and "open for interpretation" rather than possibly having people hate it. After pretty much spelling out EVERYTHING in the game it doesn't make sense to have such an open ending. The fact is that, like I said, it is a horrid ending that they didn't put any effort into.

This was not a cop out ending, the game ended how the writers felt was the best way for it to end. Also realize that having an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending is much riskier, with a greater chance for people to hate it than the standard YAY, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY NOW ending. The fact is you didn't like the ending, not that it is horrid, and unless your're privy to insider info that none of us are there is no way of knowing how much effort they put into the ending of this game.


You see an innovative system. Know what I see? A poor excuse (that being "well they get mad") so that Square didn't have to work all the bugs out in a flawed system.

I never said I saw an innovative system, I was merely illustrating how Limit Breaks make sense within the confines of FFVII. Just because you can't save a powerful attack to make boss fights easier than they already are does not mean the system is flawed, it means that the designers realized that these attacks were much more powerful than what a character would normally have at his/her/it's disposal and found a way to balance gameplay a bit by not enabling gamers to go into every boss fight with an uber attack ready for use in the first round.


Yes it does. Any character can play whatever role you want them to be; just as the cookie dough can take the shape of whatever cookie you want it to. Sounds like the term "cookie-cutter" fits to me.

Yes the characters in FFVII are more versatile than those pre-FFVI, but unless you're putting an obscene amount of time into training your characters Aeris will simply not be a heavy physical damage dealer.


Every FF has a way to do that, and most RPG's do. FFVII requires less thought than most RPG's because of how easily you can make a character be whatever you need at the time, completely removing the challenge of having to think about who you should have in your party.

How does customizing a character for what your needs are at the time take any less thought than choosing characters for your party based on their strengths and what your needs are at the time?


Note that I said "There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII". My point wasn't that it was on tv, but that it was on tv so much.

Do you seriously think that if Squaresoft had the financial ability at the time to mass market the past FFs as they did with FFVII and beyond that they wouldn't do it in a heartbeat?


I guess you didn't pick up on the fact that I was moving away from how I think the game is bad and more to why I believe it was (and is) so popular. Let me explain. It is common practice in writing to introduce new ideas with a topic sentence in a new paragraph. In this case mine was, "So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!�". This meant that I intended to answer that question to anyone that wished to bring up that point for future discussion. I hope that clarifies what I was actually talking about in said paragraph and why I brought up said strategy guide. I wasn't trying to say why I thought the game was bad, but rather giving examples as to why I thought it was such a popular game while believing that it isn't a very good game.

Your topic sentence: "So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!�". The question within that sentence is "how can it suck?" To answer this question you would need to explain how it sucks.


I was basically saying that it was the first game that had the strategy guide pretty much sold WITH it, which added to the number of people that played it because they didn't have to think. I was not using it as a direct criticism of the game itself, but rather some of the fan base. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

The strategy guide was not pretty much sold with the game. In every game store I've been to there is the games section, and then off in the corner somewhere or by the checkout is the section where strategy guides are placed, it's not like the strategy guide is sitting directly next to the game when you go to buy it. In your original post it seemed that you were offering the strategy guide as more proof of this being an easy game, which makes it seem like a direct criticism of the game.


Than to believe it was a good game.

How should someone come to the belief that this is a good or bad game without first purchasing and playing it?


It was more just a clarification than anything else. The fact is that the system was/is capable of better graphics than were presented in FFVII, so it wasn't pushing the system "to the limit". My comment had nothing to do with the fact that FFVII had better graphics than a lot of the games at the time, or that it didn�t, just that its graphics weren�t the best the system could produce. I don't see how that is a hard concept to grasp.

I completely agree that the playstation is capable of much better graphics than FFVII, however you also stated that square simply didn't "try all that hard" with regard to the graphics. My comments about other games of the same time period were meant to refute that statement. Guess we both need to work on our reading comprehension.

Originally posted by Durendal
So because you personally didn't find the plot twists between Cloud and Sephiroth to be interesting that autimatically makes them bad?

I should have clarified here again. Because I said "personally" I didn't expect it to be taken as my argument, I was more or less saying that the plot twists didn't seem all that grand to me and that is one of the reasons why I, personally, don't like the game. Though, you do have to admit that the whole part with the 3 Clouds in, I believe, the Life Stream was pretty silly.


Also you ctiticize the game for flat out telling you what's going on, then when a sub story with Shinra is thrown in where the game leaves enough room for the players to make their own inferences about the supporting characters you say there isn't enough story.

That's because, when it has to do with the main characters, everything is basically said flat out. However, you see the main characters all the time so you don't need it all given to you right at once. On the other hand, when it comes to Shinra you don't see them nearly as much as the main characters, meaning you need more given to you when you see them, and it just isn't there.


I should also note that we see more of the Shinra than just about every other FF villain from the pre-playstation games.

That's because there are somewhere around 7-10 Shinra characters in the game, you would HAVE to see more of Shinra due to that reason alone.


One of the reasons you might find the story predictable is that you're analyzing it 7 years after you first expreinced the story, everything is clearer in hindsight. I'll give you that it's not the most original story ever, this is the classic girl in distress scenario with a few tweaks, but that does not make it a bad story.

Even so, the story wouldn't have gotten old after playing through the game twice if it was a good story. There are some games that people can play over and over. When it comes to FF7 I honestly can't see how someone that has played other RPG's can sit down and play it again. I just see the story as way too simplistic. The only problem is that if I state all my reasons why and the other person still doesn't think it is then there really isn't much more I can say on the matter that will convince that person. Though, on that same note, there is no way anyone can ever convince me it is a good story.



I seem to remember hints at what is to come being given to the player much longer than 5 minutes before the forshadowed event happens.

Ok, so maybe I pushed that a little too far. However, the fact is that there are very few aspects of the plot kept from the player and often times they are not hidden for very long. For me it is very hard to stay interested in a game that just hands everything to you and doesn't keep you guessing. FFVII simply did not keep me guessing at all. It's just like reading a book. If I don't find out anything new when the ending hits me then it really isn't that great of a book because it could have been stopped much sooner.


Just because the game lets the player know what's going on does not translate to a bad story, what it does produce is a coherent story instead of a disjointed series of events. Of course the main problem we have here is that both of us are going off of memory, and unless we both play through FFVII again this is difficult problem to work around.

A story can be coherent while still leaving you guessing. This is what square basically did. They made the game so that anyone could understand the story, consequently making it very basic. It was easy to follow, and as a result became dull. Of course that could always go back to the attempt to market to younger players and such, which they were most defiantly trying to do and BZ pretty much illustrated with his first post. I guess I should revise what I said, and admit that for younger players it is probably spot on when it came to the comprehension level of the player, but for the older players the story tends to lack depths, and ends up becoming a sub par story. Also, I don't plan on replaying it but you're more than welcome to :P.


I'm not confusing storyline and gameplay. The gameplay is a pretty straight forward point A to point B affair until the highwind comes into play. The story evolves from a fight against a corrupt corporation to finding out the motives of Sephiroth, and culminates in a final showdown for revenge/save the planet. With plenty of side stories along the way having to do with the supporting characters and the Shinra. Linear story would have you fighting the Shrinra as the main enemy from the begining to end game. The final goals of the characters shift several times during the course of the story, which makes the story non-linear.

The reason I said that I felt you were confusing the two is because you said gameplay was linear, when it is the one aspect of the game that kind of changes a little every now and then due to the mini-games. Granted every game has them, but it would be wrong of me to deny that they are there in FFVII. As for the story being linear, the reason it should be considered as such is because the plot basically follows this format. "Shinra is bad, we should stop them." "ok!" "Mako is good, we should help conserve it." "ok!" "Seph is bad, he killed Aeris, we should kill him!" "ok!" I know there is more packed in than that, but the point I'm trying to make is that there isn't really any options as to what to do in the actual game itself. It's basically just one track, almost caveman like. "THIS BAD STOP IT! THIS GOOD HELP IT!" Or, if you would prefer, "SHINRA BAD HULK SMACH!"


This was not a cop out ending, the game ended how the writers felt was the best way for it to end. Also realize that having an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending is much riskier, with a greater chance for people to hate it than the standard YAY, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY NOW ending. The fact is you didn't like the ending, not that it is horrid, and unless your're privy to insider info that none of us are there is no way of knowing how much effort they put into the ending of this game.

You can still have an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending that required effort. It was basically like the second Matrix movie. It set itself up for a sequel, but you knew if the sequel (or third installment in The Matrix Reloaded case) was ever made it would be really crappy. The ending to FFVII was just too basic. Now, had they left more open for interpretation throughout the rest of the game then it would have been fine, but to go from handing the player everything to telling him or her nothing just doesn't cut it. That also goes back to the point you made about the game wrapping everything together (not sure if you said that in this post or not, but I'm pretty sure you said it somewhere), the ending defiantly does not do that at all.


I never said I saw an innovative system, I was merely illustrating how Limit Breaks make sense within the confines of FFVII. Just because you can't save a powerful attack to make boss fights easier than they already are does not mean the system is flawed, it means that the designers realized that these attacks were much more powerful than what a character would normally have at his/her/it's disposal and found a way to balance gameplay a bit by not enabling gamers to go into every boss fight with an uber attack ready for use in the first round.

But then limit breaks are pretty much pointless. If you HAVE to use them when you get them then the trigger shouldn't be "well you took this much damage, so now you're MAD!" For example, in FFVI there were limit breaks as well. However, each character had a different situation that would trigger it. Most were "near death" if I remember right. In any event, the "Limits" would get triggered in a situation that they were NEEDED, not what the character just happened to take a certain amount of damage. That is why I see it as a flawed system. Basically Square tried to improve upon the idea of "limits", but it wasn't practical.


Yes the characters in FFVII are more versatile than those pre-FFVI, but unless you're putting an obscene amount of time into training your characters Aeris will simply not be a heavy physical damage dealer.

Yeah, but Aeris dies fairly early in the game. Everyone else is capable of a good amount of physical damage, meaning anyone can be a cookie-cutter.


How does customizing a character for what your needs are at the time take any less thought than choosing characters for your party based on their strengths and what your needs are at the time?

This depends on what game you're talking about. If you're talking about FFVI, for example, I know I had a much harder time when it came to splitting my party in those times where you needed 2-3 different parties because I had to try and play upon everyone's strength�s and weaknesses. In FFVII you have, I believe, one case like that. However, even then you can make any member of your party whatever you need him or her to be at the time due to materia. In FFVI the only character that can really assume any ability/strength you need him to is Gogo. The fact is that Relm is NEVER going to be powerful with physical attacks, and sometimes you are pretty much forced to use her.

Now, if you're talking about RPG's in general, there are a good number that you don't have more than 3-4 characters throughout the whole game, with FFIV having 5 in a party in some points. In games like this you're forced to work with the abilities you have, and there is NO WAY (usually) for a character to get an ability from another character. In both cases there is more thought required than "Well, I need a healer so I'll give all of my healing materia to this character".


Do you seriously think that if Squaresoft had the financial ability at the time to mass market the past FFs as they did with FFVII and beyond that they wouldn't do it in a heartbeat?

I honestly would question if they would have. I believe they did have the ability to do so with FFVI and they didn't. However, even if they did, I don't think it would have been in the same manner as FFVII. However, this is all speculation on either of our parts.

Your topic sentence: "So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!�". The question within that sentence is "how can it suck?" To answer this question you would need to explain how it sucks.

Actually, the way it is worded would mean to imply that "you want to know why the game is so popular, despite the fact that it is so horrible, I will tell you.� I had already said why it sucked, and was going to focus on why it was popular despite that. I'm pretty sure my meaning was clear.


The strategy guide was not pretty much sold with the game. In every game store I've been to there is the games section, and then off in the corner somewhere or by the checkout is the section where strategy guides are placed, it's not like the strategy guide is sitting directly next to the game when you go to buy it. In your original post it seemed that you were offering the strategy guide as more proof of this being an easy game, which makes it seem like a direct criticism of the game.

When it first came out, no matter where you went, the clerk would ask you if you wanted the strategy guide for the game as well. I know this because it happened when I bought it. It happened when my friend bought it. It happened when my cousin bought it. It happened all three times, in three different stores, completely separate from each other. As I said, I offered the strategy guide as an example as to why the game was so popular even though it wasn�t all that great of a game.


How should someone come to the belief that this is a good or bad game without first purchasing and playing it?

They can rent it before they buy it.


I completely agree that the playstation is capable of much better graphics than FFVII, however you also stated that square simply didn't "try all that hard" with regard to the graphics. My comments about other games of the same time period were meant to refute that statement. Guess we both need to work on our reading comprehension.

But the ONLY point I was trying to make is that the graphics weren't nearly as good as they could have been. FFVIII was only two years removed from FFVII, and in two years times the graphics improved tenfold. That's where the statement came from. It's not my fault all the other companies weren't trying as hard as Square was, even though they weren't trying hard either.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
<B>Though, you do have to admit that the whole part with the 3 Clouds in, I believe, the Life Stream was pretty silly.</B>
I admit it. Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.


<B>That's because, when it has to do with the main characters, everything is basically said flat out. However, you see the main characters all the time so you don't need it all given to you right at once. On the other hand, when it comes to Shinra you don't see them nearly as much as the main characters, meaning you need more given to you when you see them, and it just isn't there.</B>
This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.


<B>Even so, the story wouldn't have gotten old after playing through the game twice if it was a good story. There are some games that people can play over and over. When it comes to FF7 I honestly can't see how someone that has played other RPG's can sit down and play it again. I just see the story as way too simplistic. The only problem is that if I state all my reasons why and the other person still doesn't think it is then there really isn't much more I can say on the matter that will convince that person.</B>
Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That's it? That's the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things. That shows how easy it is to understand this storyline.


<B>Though, on that same note, there is no way anyone can ever convince me it is a good story.</B>
Well, that may be true, partly because no one has really provided a good argument about why it is yet. But I'm sure that if some FFVII fan cares enough about this, he/she will try.


<B>Ok, so maybe I pushed that a little too far. However, the fact is that there are very few aspects of the plot kept from the player and often times they are not hidden for very long. For me it is very hard to stay interested in a game that just hands everything to you and doesn't keep you guessing. FFVII simply did not keep me guessing at all. It's just like reading a book. If I don't find out anything new when the ending hits me then it really isn't that great of a book because it could have been stopped much sooner.</B>
Didn't someone earlier state that FFVII offered twists and extra scenes, bonuses, and other crap that adds to the greatness of the game? Yeah, I agree with you RM. There is basically nothing that you actually have to go out of your way to figure out about the storyline. You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.

__________________________________________________

Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.


<B>As for the story being linear, the reason it should be considered as such is because the plot basically follows this format. "Shinra is bad, we should stop them." "ok!" "Mako is good, we should help conserve it." "ok!" "Seph is bad, he killed Aeris, we should kill him!" "ok!" I know there is more packed in than that, but the point I'm trying to make is that there isn't really any options as to what to do in the actual game itself. It's basically just one track, almost caveman like. "THIS BAD STOP IT! THIS GOOD HELP IT!" Or, if you would prefer, "SHINRA BAD HULK SMACH!"</B>
Ha ha, what an excellent synopsis you have there!


<B>The ending to FFVII was just too basic. Now, had they left more open for interpretation throughout the rest of the game then it would have been fine, but to go from handing the player everything to telling him or her nothing just doesn't cut it. That also goes back to the point you made about the game wrapping everything together (not sure if you said that in this post or not, but I'm pretty sure you said it somewhere), the ending defiantly does not do that at all.</B>
I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline.


<B>Now, if you're talking about RPG's in general, there are a good number that you don't have more than 3-4 characters throughout the whole game, with FFIV having 5 in a party in some points. In games like this you're forced to work with the abilities you have, and there is NO WAY (usually) for a character to get an ability from another character. In both cases there is more thought required than "Well, I need a healer so I'll give all of my healing materia to this character".</B>
Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn't see this at all in FFVII.


<B>When it first came out, no matter where you went, the clerk would ask you if you wanted the strategy guide for the game as well. I know this because it happened when I bought it. It happened when my friend bought it. It happened when my cousin bought it. It happened all three times, in three different stores, completely separate from each other. As I said, I offered the strategy guide as an example as to why the game was so popular even though it wasn�t all that great of a game.</B>
Yes, valid point. When I purchase games, clerks would more often than not ask me to go ahead and get the player's guide with it. But, that's not to further advertise the game, but more just to enhance their business. Also, they did it, because they actually want their customers to have fun with their games, and come back for more services in the future. With FFVII, I can't remember how many times the clerk asked me to get the player's guide along with the game. I got so sick and tired of it, that I just bought it to get the guy to shut up, not because I wanted to get it.

These posts take way too long to do.

Damn, you people can TALK! I'm not getting involved because I don't have enough time to really reply to every point made, and I don't feel like it aside, and if I did say anything, then you'd protest that I didn't have a valid argument because of my lack of great post length. All I'll say is this: is this thread like kicking a dead horse? This subject is pretty damn tired if you ask me, but whatever. To each his own.

Originally posted by Master Nabeshin
Damn, you people can TALK! I'm not getting involved because I don't have enough time to really reply to every point made, and I don't feel like it aside, and if I did say anything, then you'd protest that I didn't have a valid argument because of my lack of great post length. All I'll say is this: is this thread like kicking a dead horse? This subject is pretty damn tired if you ask me, but whatever. To each his own.
Yes, the FFVII non-fans can talk. But, obviously, not the FFVII fanatics. For some odd reason, they just can't seem to come up with a descent reply to all of these valid points.

And that is what the point of threads like these are; is to talk and debate. That's what makes it fun to read.

I really don't think the length of your post would determine anything. If it takes you a full page, or just 10 sentences to make a strong point, that is all that really matters. I am interested to read what you can say about these points, when you do have the time on your hands.

The reason the FFVII fans dont talk is because what is the point? No matter what we say. You are going to say that "The story was to obvious" "The game was to easy" "The ending sucked". We cant change your mind just like you cant change mine that FFVII is the greatest game of all time. Like I have said before in some of my post. I think the materia system was Hands down the best system for magic & summoning yet. I have yet to find an equal. Played every FF so far and still been dissapointed. I thought the story and its twist where compelling and brillant. Yes I would have like to know more about the Turks and Shinra. But in every game I have played there is a "side" character I would like to know more about. I loved the game. Still do to this day. There is a side quest as good as Gold Saucer yet. There is a dramatic scene like Aeris death that has caught me off guard like that either. So to agrue is pointless. You have you mind set and so do I. So that is why we Hard-Core fans dont agrue.

Just so you know some of the "is" are suppose to be "isnt".

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
The reason the FFVII fans dont talk is because what is the point?
No, the reason they don't talk, is because they don't have a valid point. Even if they did, I really haven't seen one yet. That's why FFVII fans always use this excuse.


<B>No matter what we say. You are going to say that "The story was to obvious" "The game was to easy" "The ending sucked".</B>
Well, yeah, that is the point. We just want someone to explain to us why the story is so fantastic, why the game isn't so easy, and why the ending didn't suck. Also, we want to know what makes this the greatest game of all time, instead of people just using "There is no point", as their scapegoat. If you actually believe FFVII is the greatest game of all time, then stand up for what you believe in.


<B>We cant change your mind just like you cant change mine that FFVII is the greatest game of all time.</B>
Well, my opinion has changed on the game throughout the years.


<B>I think the materia system was Hands down the best system for magic & summoning yet. I have yet to find an equal. Played every FF so far and still been dissapointed.</B>
Why is it hands down the best system for magic and summoning yet? What makes every other Final Fantasy's system so dissapointing?


<B>I thought the story and its twist where compelling and brillant.</B>
Again, why is the story so compelling and brilliant? You aren't helping yourself at all by just saying baseless statements. And what twists were there?


<B>There is a side quest as good as Gold Saucer yet.</B>
The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to.


<B>There is a dramatic scene like Aeris death that has caught me off guard like that either.</B>
I wouldn't call that dramatic. She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.

Also, have you played the Final Fantasy games before FFVII?


<B>So to agrue is pointless. You have you mind set and so do I. So that is why we Hard-Core fans dont agrue.</B>
For the last time, that statement is wrong! You hardcore fans don't choose not to argue because it is pointless. You choose not to argue because you know that you can't provide us with good reasons as to why you believe what you do about the game. And whether you believe it or not, this is how it goes; Rabid Monkey has given enough solid evidence to prove FFVII is not a good game. Others, like me, have added some more tidbits of information to back up his evidence. No one here has yet to prove that FFVII is the greatest game of all time. Even so, FFVII has not been proven to be a great game either.

lol.

My point exactly smokey. You have said everything I said you would say in my reply. No matter what I say you are going to say that it is wrong. I still remember the first time I found out that Cloud wasnt a SOILDER. Or going to the Whore House. Dressing up in Slum City. Watch Aeris die for the first time. Sitting by the fire with Red XIII's Grandpa. Finding all the Limit Breaks. Building up my Materia. From buying Fire to making it into Master. Breeding Chocobos. Finding Treasures. Following Septhroith to watch him Kill Aeris. Getting the Highwind. Fighting the Turks. Learning Jenova. Escaping Midgar. Finding out Cloud was Zack. (Basically). Finding that damn Knights of the Round Summon. By myself I might add. lol. What about Battle Square. Did you forget about getting Yuffie. Taking her home and Taking her up the Tower with out Leveling her useless butt up. Do you not remember thinking what the hell is Jenova? Or what caused Septhroith to go mad? You dont remember the Flashbacks that werent yours? Or the lies. Did you forget about buying new weapons and seeing the Difference on your Character. Or picking the best weapon with Slots for your materia. Having to be precise about what you use and who uses it. You dont have all the room on that sword for everything. Did you forget why you liked it in the beginning? The things that caught you and captaviated you. That was a great story and The game play was fantastic. You have forgotten the face of your Father. lol. Sorry not FF. That game was brillant. It is the reason RPG's are so popular now adays. If you like to admit it now or not. I have to admit without it. I probally would not be a FF fantatic. So now your turn :D

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
<B>My point exactly smokey. You have said everything I said you would say in my reply. No matter what I say you are going to say that it is wrong.</B>
I'll say that I don't believe you, because I probably won't agree with your opinion.


<B>I still remember the first time I found out that Cloud wasnt a SOILDER. Or going to the Whore House. Dressing up in Slum City. Watch Aeris die for the first time. Sitting by the fire with Red XIII's Grandpa. Finding all the Limit Breaks. Building up my Materia. From buying Fire to making it into Master. Breeding Chocobos. Finding Treasures.</B>
Ok, so yeah, this is what you do in the game. You aren't clarifying what you are trying to prove here.


<B>Following Septhroith to watch him Kill Aeris.</B>
I just had to say something about this. You weren't following Sephiroth to watch him kill Aeris. That would be pretty retarded. You really weren't even following him until later in the game, because the game doesn't stick to one central plot. You first were learning of a way to stop Shinra, and that sort of led into the whole Sephiroth saga.


<B>Learning Jenova. Do you not remember thinking what the hell is Jenova?</B>
Not really. I never really thought about it. The game told me everything I needed to know about Jenova without having to do something extra to learn about it.


<B>Or what caused Septhroith to go mad? You dont remember the Flashbacks that werent yours? Or the lies. Did you forget about buying new weapons and seeing the Difference on your Character. Or picking the best weapon with Slots for your materia. Having to be precise about what you use and who uses it. You dont have all the room on that sword for everything.</B>
I just see this as you listing all the stuff that you are required to do in order to beat the game, nothing more, and certainly not to prove anything.


<B>Did you forget why you liked it in the beginning?</B>
You should refresh my memory as to what made it good in the beginning.


<B>The things that caught you and captaviated you.</B>
Nothing really.


<B>That was a great story and The game play was fantastic.</B>
So, all that stuff you listed explained how it's a good story, and how the gameplay is fantastic!?


<B>You have forgotten the face of your Father. lol. Sorry not FF. That game was brillant. It is the reason RPG's are so popular now adays.</B>
Uh...what game is that?


<B>So now your turn :D</B>
How can it be my turn when you haven't really done anything yet, except list basically what needs to be done to beat this game?

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I should have clarified here again. Because I said "personally" I didn't expect it to be taken as my argument, I was more or less saying that the plot twists didn't seem all that grand to me and that is one of the reasons why I, personally, don't like the game. Though, you do have to admit that the whole part with the 3 Clouds in, I believe, the Life Stream was pretty silly.

Alright, I can accept that you personally didn't like the game, it just seemed from your earlier posts that you were presenting deifinitive proof as to why FFVII should be universally considered a bad game. And yes, the 3 Clouds thing was more than a bit out there.


That's because, when it has to do with the main characters, everything is basically said flat out. However, you see the main characters all the time so you don't need it all given to you right at once. On the other hand, when it comes to Shinra you don't see them nearly as much as the main characters, meaning you need more given to you when you see them, and it just isn't there.

Yeah, everything is basically said flat out regarding the main characters, however this information is gradually spread out through the course of the game leaving plenty of room for the player to speculate before they are simply told what's going on. I see little difference wether the player is informed during the course of the game or at the end of the game as long as it is done well, which for the most part I believe it was in FFVII. I'll accept that some of the Shinra characters were sorely underdeveloped (Scarlet, Heideggar, Palmer). While there is enough information given about a good portion of the Shinra for the player to piece together vivid portraits of their inner character (Rufus, Hojo, and to some extent the Turks).



That's because there are somewhere around 7-10 Shinra characters in the game, you would HAVE to see more of Shinra due to that reason alone.

I'll refraise then. We see more of Rufus than just about every other FF villain in pre-playstation games.


Even so, the story wouldn't have gotten old after playing through the game twice if it was a good story. There are some games that people can play over and over. When it comes to FF7 I honestly can't see how someone that has played other RPG's can sit down and play it again. I just see the story as way too simplistic. The only problem is that if I state all my reasons why and the other person still doesn't think it is then there really isn't much more I can say on the matter that will convince that person. Though, on that same note, there is no way anyone can ever convince me it is a good story.

The fact that you enjoyed the story enough the first time through to warrant a second playthrough would seem to suggest that the story is not entirely bad. I've played many other rpgs, I've also played through FFVII 3 times so far and have enjoyed it each time. It would seem we are at a standstill on this point, you claim there is no way to convince you this game has a good story, and the only way to convince me that the story is bad is for me to playthrough the game again and not enjoy it.


A story can be coherent while still leaving you guessing. This is what square basically did. They made the game so that anyone could understand the story, consequently making it very basic. It was easy to follow, and as a result became dull. Of course that could always go back to the attempt to market to younger players and such, which they were most defiantly trying to do and BZ pretty much illustrated with his first post. I guess I should revise what I said, and admit that for younger players it is probably spot on when it came to the comprehension level of the player, but for the older players the story tends to lack depths, and ends up becoming a sub par story. Also, I don't plan on replaying it but you're more than welcome to :P.

Yes a story can be coherent while still leaving you guessing, but can also turn into a jumbled mess of unrelated events. I always thought that when telling a story one of the goals was that the audience can understand it (unless you're James Joyce). While all the main story points are straight forward there are also a few subtleties that not every player will pick up on. I thought they were trying to market FFVII to an older group of players than those who played NES and SNES games, that older group being teenagers. This is because those kids who played the NES and SNES grew up into teenagers. I'm not sure if surveys have been done regarding this, but I doubt many adults played NES or SNES games. Anyway if you take FFVII for what it is and don't expect it to be the last great literary masterwork of the 20th century then the story succeeds in it's goal, which is to tell and entertaining tale. I do plan on replaying this game, but that's not happening anytime soon due to working 40+ hours a week, night classes, and Star Ocean 3 coming out in a few weeks (I hope).


The reason I said that I felt you were confusing the two is because you said gameplay was linear, when it is the one aspect of the game that kind of changes a little every now and then due to the mini-games. Granted every game has them, but it would be wrong of me to deny that they are there in FFVII. As for the story being linear, the reason it should be considered as such is because the plot basically follows this format. "Shinra is bad, we should stop them." "ok!" "Mako is good, we should help conserve it." "ok!" "Seph is bad, he killed Aeris, we should kill him!" "ok!" I know there is more packed in than that, but the point I'm trying to make is that there isn't really any options as to what to do in the actual game itself. It's basically just one track, almost caveman like. "THIS BAD STOP IT! THIS GOOD HELP IT!" Or, if you would prefer, "SHINRA BAD HULK SMACH!"

In my first post I exempted mini-games from the gameplay department. Most rpgs have mini-games of some sort, however FFVII's stand above almost all of them in the fact that they are actually fun to play. As for you synopsis about the linear storyline, you've just described the basic outline for pretty much every console rpg story I've ever played. The only rpgs I've played where you're given options where your choices actually have more than a superficial affect on the game are computer rpgs.


You can still have an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending that required effort. It was basically like the second Matrix movie. It set itself up for a sequel, but you knew if the sequel (or third installment in The Matrix Reloaded case) was ever made it would be really crappy. The ending to FFVII was just too basic. Now, had they left more open for interpretation throughout the rest of the game then it would have been fine, but to go from handing the player everything to telling him or her nothing just doesn't cut it. That also goes back to the point you made about the game wrapping everything together (not sure if you said that in this post or not, but I'm pretty sure you said it somewhere), the ending defiantly does not do that at all.

I feel that effort was put into the ending of FFVII. Comparing the ending of the second Matrix to that of FFVII is more than stretching things. The second Matrix was made along side the third, so there was a clear link to the sequel. FFVII was made many years before any work on a sequel began, or was probably even thought of. I'm fairly certain that at the when FFVII was made it was regarded by square as a completely self contained story with a definite ending. There were several hints throughout the game as to possible outcomes of the ending, and by using those hints the player can come to their own conclusion about what the ending sequence meant, I'm not sure how this is more basic than the ending of say FFIV where it's basically evil is defeated, half your party are now kings, the male and female leads are married and everything is A OK now. I don't think I said the ending wraps everything together, just that the player is left to draw their own conclusions.


But then limit breaks are pretty much pointless. If you HAVE to use them when you get them then the trigger shouldn't be "well you took this much damage, so now you're MAD!" For example, in FFVI there were limit breaks as well. However, each character had a different situation that would trigger it. Most were "near death" if I remember right. In any event, the "Limits" would get triggered in a situation that they were NEEDED, not what the character just happened to take a certain amount of damage. That is why I see it as a flawed system. Basically Square tried to improve upon the idea of "limits", but it wasn't practical.

All the FFVI limit breaks I remember are triggered by the near death state. I could argue that the limit breaks in FFVI are flawed because it's not practicle to leave a character in a state where any attack can easily kill them just to use a special attack. Anyway in FFVII the fights that inflict enough damage to your party to fill up the limit meter tend to be against the powerful enemies and bosses, which is exactly when you need that extra oomph.


Yeah, but Aeris dies fairly early in the game. Everyone else is capable of a good amount of physical damage, meaning anyone can be a cookie-cutter.

From what I remember Aeris dies about 17 hours into the game, the past FFs were only around 20 hours in length, so this is still a good chunk of gameplay. Also the only characters versitile enough to be great in any role without an excess of tweaking would be Cloud and Red, Barret and Cid are not going to be great magic users. Sure the difference is not as pronounced as in FFIV, but the same can be said about FFVI characters like Celes, Terra, Locke, and Edgar.


This depends on what game you're talking about. If you're talking about FFVI, for example, I know I had a much harder time when it came to splitting my party in those times where you needed 2-3 different parties because I had to try and play upon everyone's strength�s and weaknesses. In FFVII you have, I believe, one case like that. However, even then you can make any member of your party whatever you need him or her to be at the time due to materia. In FFVI the only character that can really assume any ability/strength you need him to is Gogo. The fact is that Relm is NEVER going to be powerful with physical attacks, and sometimes you are pretty much forced to use her.

I see your point, but at the same time I never had a tough time splitting my party up into groups in FFVI, simply make sure that each group has at least one character with curative magic and I was good to go. Splitting up into seperate groups in FFVII simply isn't practicle due to the relatively small cast of characters, especially if the player neglects to get Yuffie or Vincent. And I'm sure someone somewhere has put enough time into leveling Realm up with vigor and strength boosting espers to make her a formidible physical character.


Now, if you're talking about RPG's in general, there are a good number that you don't have more than 3-4 characters throughout the whole game, with FFIV having 5 in a party in some points. In games like this you're forced to work with the abilities you have, and there is NO WAY (usually) for a character to get an ability from another character. In both cases there is more thought required than "Well, I need a healer so I'll give all of my healing materia to this character".

In games like these it seems to me that less thought is required than games with customizable characters. The game gives you a set party, and flat out tells you "This character is a healer, use her to heal and that character over there is a swordsman, whack enemies over the head with him".


I honestly would question if they would have. I believe they did have the ability to do so with FFVI and they didn't. However, even if they did, I don't think it would have been in the same manner as FFVII. However, this is all speculation on either of our parts.

I doubt they had the ability with FFVI, I think the reason they could mass market FFVII was that the game was published by Sony and Sony has a whole lot of money. But like you said, this is only speculation.


Actually, the way it is worded would mean to imply that "you want to know why the game is so popular, despite the fact that it is so horrible, I will tell you.� I had already said why it sucked, and was going to focus on why it was popular despite that. I'm pretty sure my meaning was clear.

I knew what that phrase was implying, I was simply being a stickler on the wording. Yeah, I'm a jackass.


When it first came out, no matter where you went, the clerk would ask you if you wanted the strategy guide for the game as well. I know this because it happened when I bought it. It happened when my friend bought it. It happened when my cousin bought it. It happened all three times, in three different stores, completely separate from each other. As I said, I offered the strategy guide as an example as to why the game was so popular even though it wasn�t all that great of a game.

I bought the game at Best Buy and had no such experience. The fact that an official strategy guide was offered does not play a major part in the sales, people interested in the game would still buy it strategy guide or not, a few of them might not finish the game without the guide, but by then it's too late they've already made the purchase.


They can rent it before they buy it.

It's not very practicle to rent a 40+ hour rpg, especially considering most rentals 7 years ago were 2 or 3 day rentals.


But the ONLY point I was trying to make is that the graphics weren't nearly as good as they could have been. FFVIII was only two years removed from FFVII, and in two years times the graphics improved tenfold. That's where the statement came from. It's not my fault all the other companies weren't trying as hard as Square was, even though they weren't trying hard either.

Graphics are never as good as they could be, and graphics are not largely degermined by how much effort is put into them, but how much experience the designers have with a particular system. Just like anything else there is a learning curve in creating good graphics and the more experience and knowledge is acquired the better the graphics become.

My friend you are fighting a losing battle. They want hard core evidence as to why they should like the game. You cant give that to someone. You just have to say that they think it is a bad game. Ok notch 2 for the million that enjoyed it. What can you do? They dont enjoy the game. Just like I thought that FF VIII was terrible. The story was great but the game play was so horrible that I almost didnt finish it. I felt like I was forcing myself to finish it. So you cant convince me that the "Draw" system that they used in FF VIII was worth the better graphics. This is a draw subject no one is going to win this.

*Sigh*
I'm not even going to bother to read most of these posts because your just recycling each others words. Hopefully this will get closed soon.
I'll just say that I like FF7, it was the first game I played in the series. Mainly because I saw it advertised (as RM said, marketed to hell. Thats correct, accept it). I enjoyed playing the game, because I liked the whole RPG format (this was really the first time I had played one). I did think the story was quite...nice, but it was very basic. I have to say I did buy the guide after I completed it the first time, and I did miss a few things, but not enough to warrant NEEDING to buy the guide, if that makes sense.
So I guess I'm can completly see why RM made this post, the flaws he pointed out do exist and I agree with them entirely. But that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy playing the game.
And I wish there wasn't such a huge divide between people who like/dislike the game. It ridiculous you can't discuss instead of arguing. Accept that they make a few good points about the flaws in the game, but you lot on the other hand accept the flaws and love FF7 in spite of them. And that should be the end of it.

Originally posted by Szklana kobieta
Nice knowing ya. :-*

Though Final Fantasy 7 was an extremely simplistic RPG (at least by the standards of when it came out), it was a gateway game. However, it either went from "played a good bunch of RPGs" or "played FF7 and don't give a crap". As much as we like to say there is something in the middle, there really isn't.

Really, FF7 was just a game that was more open to everyone. Being too addicted to it isn't my recommendation, it makes you ignorant of many things and thus not appricate games as much. I am a pretty deep fan of games, I do have my favorites but I give every game a chance. Of course, by doing this, I can't say what is my favorite FF game because it's really everchanging and I can give you more reasons to why I like one over the other but I like the other for this.

Personally for the sake of whatever, those who need to "defend" FF7 and those who need to "attack" FF7 to stop the people who are the "support" of FF7... really, this is an FF7 forum and dammit, it's going to happen. Just like FF8, just like FF9, just like FFX. Unfortunately, at FFShrine, it's not our job to force people to like something. I, of course, would rather talk about something else than FF7 or FF7AC but with how people are these days, it's a bit hard to do so.

And besides... it gives the FFXI people more to laugh about.... because we all know that the FF7 fans are total complete dumbasses. It's the truth, it's fact... FF7 are total complete dumbasses to the eyes of those who play FFXI. That and they're cheap in the wallet and can't handle a "real" RPG.

But yeah.... FF7, gateway to games... but sometimes the gateway gets plugged.

Originally posted by MogKnight


Though Final Fantasy 7 was an extremely simplistic RPG (at least by the standards of when it came out), it was a gateway game. However, it either went from "played a good bunch of RPGs" or "played FF7 and don't give a crap". As much as we like to say there is something in the middle, there really isn't.

Well, as far as i am concerned that is true, but there has gotta be a happy medium. Such as 'Played FF7, and it was OK?'


Really, FF7 was just a game that was more open to everyone. Being too addicted to it isn't my recommendation, it makes you ignorant of many things and thus not appricate games as much. I am a pretty deep fan of games, I do have my favorites but I give every game a chance. Of course, by doing this, I can't say what is my favorite FF game because it's really everchanging and I can give you more reasons to why I like one over the other but I like the other for this.

Nowadays, you get too many 'die hard' FFVII fans. Much to addictive, and it annoys me somewhat, becuase maybe if they had played other RPG's their opinions would be different. My opinions of FF change every time I play them. Everytime, I notice new things that make the game good/bad, thusly.


Personally for the sake of whatever, those who need to "defend" FF7 and those who need to "attack" FF7 to stop the people who are the "support" of FF7... really, this is an FF7 forum and dammit, it's going to happen. Just like FF8, just like FF9, just like FFX. Unfortunately, at FFShrine, it's not our job to force people to like something. I, of course, would rather talk about something else than FF7 or FF7AC but with how people are these days, it's a bit hard to do so.

My point as above. I think it is pretty fair to have things like these occasionally, but not too much. There are different aspects (surely) of FFVII to talk about.


And besides... it gives the FFXI people more to laugh about.... because we all know that the FF7 fans are total complete dumbasses. It's the truth, it's fact... FF7 are total complete dumbasses to the eyes of those who play FFXI. That and they're cheap in the wallet and can't handle a "real" RPG.

I would consider FFVII to be an RPG, I would consider TLoZ to be an RPG. But as you said, not 'real' ones. On games like Shenmue, you can talk to everyone, and every desicion you make, moreso have an ultimate impact on the games outcome, a similar case with KotOR (Knights of the Old Republic) and in my opinion, these are the more consistent RPG's.
As for your comment on the FFVII fans being dumbasses, I agree 50/50. Some of them go WAY to far and get WAY too offended but others are col, Like me.



But yeah.... FF7, gateway to games... but sometimes the gateway gets plugged.

Maybe...

Heres my nice short opinion:

I like the Final Fantasy story, I also like the characters, I don't need any more of a reason than that to say why I like the game do I?

There may be glitches or things that could have been made better, but I think the story makes up for all that, (and plus I like the materia system ^^)

- Adam

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
My friend you are fighting a losing battle. They want hard core evidence as to why they should like the game. You cant give that to someone. You just have to say that they think it is a bad game. Ok notch 2 for the million that enjoyed it. What can you do? They dont enjoy the game. Just like I thought that FF VIII was terrible. The story was great but the game play was so horrible that I almost didnt finish it. I felt like I was forcing myself to finish it. So you cant convince me that the "Draw" system that they used in FF VIII was worth the better graphics. This is a draw subject no one is going to win this.
I'm not sure who you are talking about. But, since I know it's one of us that is attacking FFVII, how are we on the losing battle? We have come up with so much evidence or whatever you want to call it. And what do you guys come up with?

"OH THERE IS NO POINT IN ARGUING!"

Yes, there is a point. Do you see why FFVII fans are viewed as complete idiots? Because they say crap like this, over and over and over again, without really standing up and defending the game for once. And we can't give hard-core evidence as to why someone shouldn't like the game? Well, just go back to the beginning of this thread, and read from there. Seriously, do it. There is a lot to read, but it all makes sense in the terms of making an argument against FFVII. And you don't actually know how many people enjoy the game. Yeah, I can safely say that most people who beat the game when it first came out enjoyed it big time. But, if you ask them now, I bet a good amount of those very same people will have changed their views. And I agree with you on one thing; I think FFVIII is the worst one of the series, for reasons I won't delve into here. It would be the wrong forum.


<I>Originally posted by The Bear</I>
<B>I'm not even going to bother to read most of these posts because your just recycling each others words. Hopefully this will get closed soon.</B>
Or maybe because it would take too long to read everything and fully comprehend everything? And why should it get closed? Just so that the FFVII non-fans can't express their opinions?


<B>I'll just say that I like FF7, it was the first game I played in the series. Mainly because I saw it advertised (as RM said, marketed to hell. Thats correct, accept it).</B>
Finally, a FFVII fan accepts that the game isn't perfect.


<B>I enjoyed playing the game, because I liked the whole RPG format (this was really the first time I had played one).</B>
That seems to be the general consensus with most FFVII fans. Most of them have never played RPG's before, so this game is their first.


<B>I did think the story was quite...nice, but it was very basic. I have to say I did buy the guide after I completed it the first time, and I did miss a few things, but not enough to warrant NEEDING to buy the guide, if that makes sense.</B>
Now, I'm not saying that the storyline is the worst ever. I'm just saying it really wasn't that good. And it was basic, because a toddler could follow it. Yes, a toddler. So you're saying that you don't need the guide to beat the game because it is that easy, right?


<B>And I wish there wasn't such a huge divide between people who like/dislike the game. It ridiculous you can't discuss instead of arguing.</B>
Personally, there isn't a hude divide for me. I have friends that are FFVII fans, and non-fans. I don't think they are wrong for liking the game, because they can actually debate with me. I just don't agree with them. And I'm not trying to argue with anyone. It's just really frustrating when you continuously see all these FFVII fans claim it's the greatest game ever, and they yell at us for bashing it. Then, when they are asked to back up their claims, they run and hide in the corner.


<I>Originally posted by SephirothBizzaro</I>
<B>Nowadays, you get too many 'die hard' FFVII fans. Much to addictive, and it annoys me somewhat, becuase maybe if they had played other RPG's their opinions would be different. My opinions of FF change every time I play them. Everytime, I notice new things that make the game good/bad, thusly.</B>
I think the reason there are so many die-hard FFVII fans, is because a good number of them haven't played the FF games that were released before it. So, it's a lot easier to say this:

FFVII is the best one of all, but I haven't played the ones before it.

Than:

FFVII is the best one of all, and I have played all of them.

It's been years since I beat the game, and over time, I have noticed new things or mistakes that make the game worse than I actually thought it was.


<B>As for your comment on the FFVII fans being dumbasses, I agree 50/50. Some of them go WAY to far and get WAY too offended but others are col, Like me.</B>
Yes, you seem to not really care that much about all of this, while you are a FFVII fan too. I just think it's pretty idiotic when you say it's the greatest game ever, but you don't have any reason why. That's what pisses me off about all these FFVII nuts.


<I>Originally posted by AdamJC</I>
<B>I like the Final Fantasy story, I also like the characters, I don't need any more of a reason than that to say why I like the game do I?</B>
Yes you do. That's pretty much the same as:

I like the United States of America, and all the characters that make it the greatest country in the world. But, I don't need any more of a reason than that, do I?


<B>There may be glitches or things that could have been made better, but I think the story makes up for all that, (and plus I like the materia system ^^)</B>
Well of course there are going to be things that could make the game better. No game is perfect, it's just that we are pointing out these mistakes. And how does the story make up for all this? Why do you like the materia system?

Personally I thought the Materia system was great, though it's not the best for me. You had total customization for all your characters and you can make them do whatever you want them to do. There wasn't really a "job" meant for a character for the most part, even Yuffie would get a run for her money if I made Cloud a thief/ninja job. The only real problem I faced was the limitations of materia. You wouldn't have enough to make a character that is suited for you and you have 7 characters to worry about. Yes Materia can give birth and stuff but when you have to do it 7 or more times, especially on the big powerful materia, you got a lot to do that isn't really needed.

Point is, the materia system was open but very limited as well. I perfer FFX's Sphere Grid system however, you can make anyone into whatever you want and you can make them into everything, that's what I felt was great and outshines the materia system.

As for storyline.... basically, once I play through a game, I don't give a crap about the story any more. I did like the dialogue placed in FF7 but it wasn't exactly... well... "correct". Of course what I mean could mean anything. It lacked a lot of "normality" I'll say. While games like FF6 have humor, FF7 kinda dove into weird short sentences with accents and incorrect grammar at times. But yeah, I ignore the story the second time around.

Originally posted by Smokey
I'm not sure who you are talking about. But, since I know it's one of us that is attacking FFVII, how are we on the losing battle? We have come up with so much evidence or whatever you want to call it. And what do you guys come up with?


I'm fairly certain Cloud_Dmar had that statement aimed at me.




Yes, there is a point. Do you see why FFVII fans are viewed as complete idiots? Because they say crap like this, over and over and over again, without really standing up and defending the game for once. And we can't give hard-core evidence as to why someone shouldn't like the game? Well, just go back to the beginning of this thread, and read from there. Seriously, do it. There is a lot to read, but it all makes sense in the terms of making an argument against FFVII. And you don't actually know how many people enjoy the game. Yeah, I can safely say that most people who beat the game when it first came out enjoyed it big time. But, if you ask them now, I bet a good amount of those very same people will have changed their views. And I agree with you on one thing; I think FFVIII is the worst one of the series, for reasons I won't delve into here. It would be the wrong forum.

Why argue when we can have semi-civilized debate? And here I thought I was standing up and defending the game, oh well. I would like to see this "hard-core evidence" against FFVII, we're discussing human prefference to a game and the human mind is much to fickle for "hard-core-evidence" in matters of prefference, such definitive proof is reserved for the sciences and mathematics.


Finally, a FFVII fan accepts that the game isn't perfect.

Er, finally? I've already pointed out several aspects of the game that weren't perfect, in fact I don't recall someone claiming anywhere in this thread that FFVII is perfect.


I think the reason there are so many die-hard FFVII fans, is because a good number of them haven't played the FF games that were released before it. So, it's a lot easier to say this:

FFVII is the best one of all, but I haven't played the ones before it.

Than

FFVII is the best one of all, and I have played all of them.


This leads me to believe that a good amount of dislike for FFVII stems from a dislike of the fans of FVII rather than it actually beine a bad game. Besides, I thought we were talking about FFVII being a good or a bad game, not wether or not it's the "best one of all".


Yes you do. That's pretty much the same as:

I like the United States of America, and all the characters that make it the greatest country in the world. But, I don't need any more of a reason than that, do I?

That United States thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Anyway why does he need to explain to you why he likes the game? The fact that he likes FFVII does not affect you in any way so he does not have to justify why he likes the game to you or anybody but himself. If someone wants to discuss why they think this game is good or bad, I say good for them the more the merrier. But if they like the game and don't want to debate why they like FFVII, what's wrong with leaving it at that?


And I just have to comment on this


Originally posted by Mogknight
And besides... it gives the FFXI people more to laugh about.... because we all know that the FF7 fans are total complete dumbasses. It's the truth, it's fact... FF7 are total complete dumbasses to the eyes of those who play FFXI. That and they're cheap in the wallet and can't handle a "real" RPG.

That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've heard in a long time. I've played both FFXI and FFVII, I consider myself a fan of both. I'm a fan of FFVII, I'm also smart enough to realize I'm stupid, and that puts me one step ahead most people (including most FFXI people). Just what makes FFXI a "real" rpg? Most of my experiences in that game are far from actual roleplaying, it's the majority of your party being more concerned with exp per hour than actually having fun with the game.

The way I define real RPGs... well, not a lot of people are going to have the same opinion of it. A real RPG to me a game that is about you, not about Cloud, not about Squall but you. This goes back to the D&D age when they started off the whole Role Playing thing. D&D is still big of course and heck even some games uses the same rules. PC games and MMORPGs are more based on that style that D&D has setup, there is no storyline given to you except for a brief outline of what is going on in that game world. It wasn't entirely based on character development and a lot of people of the console RPG fame... just don't like it.

It maybe the most ridiculous statements you've heard for awhile but being knee deep into things like me, you start hearing a lot of things you wish you didn't, Final Fantasy or otherwise.

Originally posted by Durendal
<B>Why argue when we can have semi-civilized debate? And here I thought I was standing up and defending the game, oh well. I would like to see this "hard-core evidence" against FFVII, we're discussing human prefference to a game and the human mind is much to fickle for "hard-core-evidence" in matters of prefference, such definitive proof is reserved for the sciences and mathematics.</B>
I would rather have a debate than argue over it. That is what I was trying to do anyways. And wasn't the posts before these enough hard-core evidence for you? I knew you were defending the game, and I respect you for that. You are one of the few that actually attempt to do so.


<B>Er, finally? I've already pointed out several aspects of the game that weren't perfect, in fact I don't recall someone claiming anywhere in this thread that FFVII is perfect.</B>
When I said finally, that was just aimed at him, because most FFVII fans don't admit there are mistakes with the game. And when I said perfect, I meant exactly what I said before. Most FFVII fans believe it is the greatest game ever, therefore they view it as perfect since they may claim there is nothing wrong with it.


<B>This leads me to believe that a good amount of dislike for FFVII stems from a dislike of the fans of FVII rather than it actually beine a bad game. Besides, I thought we were talking about FFVII being a good or a bad game, not wether or not it's the "best one of all".</B>
I was trying to talk about what makes this game bad. But then, someone said they believe it is the greatest game of all time, and it sort of led to this. I don't want to debate if this is the greatest game or not, but it's may lead to that if the FFVII fans keep claiming that. I just want to debate if it is a good game or not.


<B>That United States thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Anyway why does he need to explain to you why he likes the game? The fact that he likes FFVII does not affect you in any way so he does not have to justify why he likes the game to you or anybody but himself. If someone wants to discuss why they think this game is good or bad, I say good for them the more the merrier. But if they like the game and don't want to debate why they like FFVII, what's wrong with leaving it at that?</B>
When you like something, there is usually a reason for it. I just wanted him to give reasons for his beliefs. And that U.S. thing does make sense. If someone told me that this is the greatest country in the world, I would ask them to tell me why it is. If someone doesn't tell me why they like the game, and all they say repeatedly is "IT'S DA BOMB!", I am going to think they are an idiot, because they have no reason for liking the game. Instead, they just jumped on the bandwagon seven years ago, and are afraid to get off it, because so many people think this is a great game.

Originally posted by Durendal
Yeah, everything is basically said flat out regarding the main characters, however this information is gradually spread out through the course of the game leaving plenty of room for the player to speculate before they are simply told what's going on.

I distinctly remember sitting and staring at the screen going "couldn't they space this out more?" Everything you get is in large clumps. I will give you that the clumps may be spread throughout the game, but all the information you get is pilled on top of itself at seemingly random parts of the game, rather than spread out evenly throughout the entire game, making for choppy gameplay as well as causing the story to suffer (if you won�t admit that the story suffers because of that at least concede that it hinders the progression of the game by having to sit through 10 minutes of talk).


I see little difference wether the player is informed during the course of the game or at the end of the game as long as it is done well, which for the most part I believe it was in FFVII.

I'm not sure if you mean that you thought everything was said near the end, or just using the extreme to help drive the point home. If you thought that I meant it was all given at the end of the game, that's not what I meant at all, which the previous comment should help clarify. If you meant to just help further your point then I think my pervious comment serves to explain why I don't think it is good to clump information. It just takes away from the fluency of the story when it is a sort of "stop and go" storyline. Anyway, I wouldn't have commented on that sentence separately, I just didn't know which point you were trying to make.


I'll accept that some of the Shinra characters were sorely underdeveloped (Scarlet, Heideggar, Palmer). While there is enough information given about a good portion of the Shinra for the player to piece together vivid portraits of their inner character (Rufus, Hojo, and to some extent the Turks).

Just a complete side not, this has nothing to do with my point; I just can't go without saying it. I couldn't stand Rufus' character. Not Rufus as an individual, just the whole idea of his character. It just seemed so manufactured for his part in order to have some random villain that they can have popping up when they feel that something bad should happen.

Moving on, I don't really remember enough about the game to comment on how correct I think that statement is, however, I remember wanting to see more of Hojo because he, like Rufus, seemed to just come and go whenever they needed some crazy scientist to plop in there.


I'll refraise then. We see more of Rufus than just about every other FF villain in pre-playstation games.

You pretty much saw Kefka throughout the entire world of Balance in FFVI, you also know exactly where he is in the World of Ruin. You saw Golbez an awful lot in FFIV. In FFV Gilgamesh is frekin everywhere, though he was closest to Rufus in the regards that they just sort of threw him in there whenever they needed a boss or something.


The fact that you enjoyed the story enough the first time through to warrant a second playthrough would seem to suggest that the story is not entirely bad.

Go back to my first post. The only reason I played it a second time was to check to see what I missed. I'm not sure if I specifically SAID that in my first post, so I can see why you would mention this. I really had no intention of playing it again once I beat it, but my friends hounded me about how I HAD to have missed something because I didn't use the guide.


I've played many other rpgs, I've also played through FFVII 3 times so far and have enjoyed it each time. It would seem we are at a standstill on this point, you claim there is no way to convince you this game has a good story, and the only way to convince me that the story is bad is for me to playthrough the game again and not enjoy it.

Then I wait for the day you come on to FFShrine and say that the game blew chunks. :P


While all the main story points are straight forward there are also a few subtleties that not every player will pick up on.

Can you give examples? Not trying to be difficult, I just can't think of any and I don't know if it is because there isn't any, or because I'm just naturally prone to think there isn't.


I thought they were trying to market FFVII to an older group of players than those who played NES and SNES games, that older group being teenagers.This is because those kids who played the NES and SNES grew up into teenagers. I'm not sure if surveys have been done regarding this, but I doubt many adults played NES or SNES games.

I doubt surveys have been done, and seem as it is complete speculation on our part there really isn't any way to PROVE it, but it really does seem like it was meant to be presented to an audience around the ages of 12-16. I wonder how easy it would be to get an answer from Square on this one. O:]


Anyway if you take FFVII for what it is and don't expect it to be the last great literary masterwork of the 20th century then the story succeeds in it's goal, which is to tell and entertaining tale. I do plan on replaying this game, but that's not happening anytime soon due to working 40+ hours a week, night classes, and Star Ocean 3 coming out in a few weeks (I hope).

I have no problem with people that aren't out to prove that FFVII is the greatest game in the world or that it has the most amazing story ever written. The fact of the matters is that the story in FFV is horrid, but I LOVE the game because it is just so entertaining to play. What irks me, and is the main reason I made this thread to begin with, are those people who feel that FFVII is the greatest game (or even THING) to ever grace this world, and that blindly say so without having anything to back it up.


In my first post I exempted mini-games from the gameplay department. Most rpgs have mini-games of some sort, however FFVII's stand above almost all of them in the fact that they are actually fun to play. As for you synopsis about the linear storyline, you've just described the basic outline for pretty much every console rpg story I've ever played. The only rpgs I've played where you're given options where your choices actually have more than a superficial affect on the game are computer rpgs.

I don't know... I got pretty damn addicted to Blitzball, and I really didn't like playing the mini-games in FFVII. The only one I really enjoyed was racing chocobos, but there are only so many times you can go around that track before it gets outright repetitive. I'm kind of running low on time so I'm going to try and keep this short. But, I do have to comment on how the storyline seemed much more straightforward in terms of what you had to do next in the game, which is why I made the last comment in the paragraph you quoted. There is never any question in the characters mind as to what must be done or where they have to go. That's the point I was trying to get across.


I feel that effort was put into the ending of FFVII. Comparing the ending of the second Matrix to that of FFVII is more than stretching things. The second Matrix was made along side the third, so there was a clear link to the sequel. FFVII was made many years before any work on a sequel began, or was probably even thought of. I'm fairly certain that at the when FFVII was made it was regarded by square as a completely self contained story with a definite ending. There were several hints throughout the game as to possible outcomes of the ending, and by using those hints the player can come to their own conclusion about what the ending sequence meant...

Hence why I called it a cop out. There's no ENDING, it's just "yeah, it's all plants now, see ya". An ending to a book, a story, or a game should leave you with more than you started. It's ok to leave you hanging in some respects, but to just completely write out every single character from the ending but one is kind of, for lack of a better term, crappy. The fact is that it DOES NOT leave you with a sense of completeness and, for the majority of people; it was more a reaction of "what the fuck is this?" Hence the Matrix reference.


...I'm not sure how this is more basic than the ending of say FFIV where it's basically evil is defeated, half your party are now kings, the male and female leads are married and everything is A OK now. I don't think I said the ending wraps everything together, just that the player is left to draw their own conclusions.

In a short answer, it's not. However, the ending for FFIV worked much better for that particular game than the ending of FFVII worked for it, for all the reasons I've said.


All the FFVI limit breaks I remember are triggered by the near death state. I could argue that the limit breaks in FFVI are flawed because it's not practicle to leave a character in a state where any attack can easily kill them just to use a special attack. Anyway in FFVII the fights that inflict enough damage to your party to fill up the limit meter tend to be against the powerful enemies and bosses, which is exactly when you need that extra oomph.

I don't think anyone let someone get to near death just to see the limit breaks, and if they did it wouldn�t be in a situation that the party was in any real danger. However, two comments I have to make. First is that if you need extra oomph in battles where you receive a lot of damage then wouldn't it also be reasonable to assume that if your characters are spending enough time at "near death" status to be able to use their limits that you would need that extra oomph? The second point would be that you could argue the Limit system in FFVII makes it too easy to kill bosses because you could have your limit fill out without being in any serious danger, meaning you get an extra powerful attack that tips the scales in a challenging battle so far in your favor that it makes it an easy battle instead, ruining some of the gameplay aspect. This same argument doesn't work with FFVI because, as you pointed out, it is dangerous to stay at a near death status.


From what I remember Aeris dies about 17 hours into the game, the past FFs were only around 20 hours in length, so this is still a good chunk of gameplay. Also the only characters versitile enough to be great in any role without an excess of tweaking would be Cloud and Red, Barret and Cid are not going to be great magic users. Sure the difference is not as pronounced as in FFIV, but the same can be said about FFVI characters like Celes, Terra, Locke, and Edgar.

Terra and Celes are the only two that I see as really unbalanced in FFVI. Locke had steal, or mug, which really takes a lot of devotion on the player's part to make powerful. Edgar never really had that powerful magic when I played with him. Besides, the hardest part of FFVI is Kefka's tower. If you were to assume that all 4 of those characters was unbalanced, merely having them in your 3 parties would NOT mean that you could get through that blasted thing. However, in FFVII you only listed 2 of 9 characters as being unable to use a decent amount of magic. From what I remember the only character that is really weak physically is Areis, and like I said, she isn't in your final party. This means that you have at least 7 versatile characters to use. The most parties you ever have to make are 2. This means that you don't even have to use the characters that aren't easily exchangeable ability wise.


I see your point, but at the same time I never had a tough time splitting my party up into groups in FFVI, simply make sure that each group has at least one character with curative magic and I was good to go. Splitting up into seperate groups in FFVII simply isn't practicle due to the relatively small cast of characters, especially if the player neglects to get Yuffie or Vincent. And I'm sure someone somewhere has put enough time into leveling Realm up with vigor and strength boosting espers to make her a formidible physical character.

In FFVII all you need is the right materia and you have the party you need. In FFVI if you haven't learned that magic with the right number of characters you're screwed. The first time through FFVI presented me with a much harder challenge when it came to splitting parties than the first time through FFVII because it is unexpected. In FFVII I could mix and match my materia to make sure I had enough people that could cure. In FFVI, if someone didn't have a cure spell then too bad for me.


In games like these it seems to me that less thought is required than games with customizable characters. The game gives you a set party, and flat out tells you "This character is a healer, use her to heal and that character over there is a swordsman, whack enemies over the head with him".

This was a separate point from paragraph before it in my post. It was more of a comment on the fact that you can't customize your abilities for what you need in games like that and instead have to work with what you have, as opposed to FFVII where you can make anyone whatever you need at any given time. It wasn't a comment about having to think more or less, though I COULD argue that FFVII still requires less thinking because instead of having to figure out how each character's abilities best complement each other you can MAKE that character either a) complement the other members of the party or b) make 3 completely independent characters, depending on your needs at that given time.


I doubt they had the ability with FFVI, I think the reason they could mass market FFVII was that the game was published by Sony and Sony has a whole lot of money. But like you said, this is only speculation.

I still don't see them marketing it the same way, regardless of if they had the means or not. The reason is because I whole-heatedly believe that the games were intended for completely different sets of fans.


I bought the game at Best Buy and had no such experience. The fact that an official strategy guide was offered does not play a major part in the sales, people interested in the game would still buy it strategy guide or not, a few of them might not finish the game without the guide, but by then it's too late they've already made the purchase.

Since my last post I actually talked with someone I knew that was working in a store that sells games at the time FFVII came out. Turns out that they were, in fact, told to offer the guide when the game sold. I couldn't say if it was the same for each store, and he didn't know if it was just that one store or every store that sold FFVII. However, the fact is that, at least at that one store, the clerks were told to pressure people to buy the guide with FFVII. They were also never pressured to sell a guide for another game before or since. Well, I can't say that. They might have after he quit a year ago. For the record, I didn't go and ask him, I happened to be talking with him about past jobs and it just sort of popped into my head to ask him when he brought up the toy store.


It's not very practicle to rent a 40+ hour rpg, especially considering most rentals 7 years ago were 2 or 3 day rentals.

You could still get far enough in the game with the 2-3 days to see if you like it or not, though.


Graphics are never as good as they could be, and graphics are not largely degermined by how much effort is put into them, but how much experience the designers have with a particular system. Just like anything else there is a learning curve in creating good graphics and the more experience and knowledge is acquired the better the graphics become.

All I'm saying is there was a quantum leap from FFVII to FFVIII, there was not such a leap from FFVIII to FFIX. There is about the same gap between the two games. I'm assuming you would say that just means they learned a lot between FFVII and FFVIII, I would say they simply didn't try as hard for FFVII. However, this is just speculation on both of our parts, again.

ok you want to know the reasons why I like final fantasy 7? Well lets see:

I like the ideas in the game, Shinra Company, a dying planet, Jenova etc.. I cant really explain why I like them but I'll give it some thought and maybe edit this post later. Maybe its because they were new to me when I played FF7, as FF7 was the first game of its type I ever played (being only 10 yrs old or so when it came out and it being one of my first PS1 games - PS1 being my first major console)

As i said, I like the characters and the fact that they all have at least some kind of history (ff7 isnt the first game to have this, its not new, but it is a GOOD thing). All the characters have a distinct personality which was again new to me.
Although I do feel that some characters lack a real reason for fighting to the end (mainly Yuffie)

The reason I like the materia system is because of its simplicity (people may say they don't like it to be simple, but compared to the more complex ff8 junction system I think the materia system wins hands down).
I also like the way materia is both useful (the spells/MP increase) and dangerous (HP and Str Reductions) meaning you have to be cautious, and the fact your materia levels up so you don't have to buy loads of new materia at every city as your old ones become weak and obselete.

The reasons you have for hating ff7 are justified in your eyes, but I don't understand why we need to justify to you why we like the game just for you to accept that we do like it, maybe we don't all have clear reasons (I know I'm having difficultly saying why I like it), but we still know what we like, and if everyone accepts that we like the game and you hate it then we wont need to keep posting in this thread will we?!
I accept you don't like the game but you ain't gonna make me change my mind about it ;)

Oh yeah and I have to mention I new nothing about ff7 when it came out, it was just a game i got with my PS1 and played, so you cant say it was all the advertising that attrated me in my case, oh yeah and I never knew there was a guide book till later on - I played the game without the help of one and still loved it.

Anyway, enough from me, Im tired now I'll read this post in the morning and if I've made a complete idiot of myself I'll edit it when i'm more alert :P

- Adam

.....excuse me but are you stoned? Could you have made a better game?

i like the game, i just started playing it like a week ago......and its 2004 ........ the graphics are terrible compared to whats out nowadays.......but it is very good game with a good story that i have enjoyed ever since.....i played ocarina of time on the n64....and i've played many games since 1997....

...oooooh. So its just the whole graphic thing huh?
I agree on that. I found better graphics on the Zelda games (N64)

Originally posted by Shinra Turk
...oooooh. So its just the whole graphic thing huh?
I agree on that. I found better graphics on the Zelda games (N64)


How would it be a "graphics thing" to base my choice on what I consider good games..when I am currently playing ff7 and loving it and its 2004...where the ff7 are super mediocre compared to whats out now??

Think.

God! Sorry!

Dammit, some of you people can be so mean! I aint comin back to this thread!

Originally posted by AdamJC
<B>I like the ideas in the game, Shinra Company, a dying planet, Jenova etc.. I cant really explain why I like them but I'll give it some thought and maybe edit this post later. Maybe its because they were new to me when I played FF7, as FF7 was the first game of its type I ever played (being only 10 yrs old or so when it came out and it being one of my first PS1 games - PS1 being my first major console)</B>
FFVII was the first game of what type?


<B>As i said, I like the characters and the fact that they all have at least some kind of history (ff7 isnt the first game to have this, its not new, but it is a GOOD thing). All the characters have a distinct personality which was again new to me.
Although I do feel that some characters lack a real reason for fighting to the end (mainly Yuffie)</B>
I'll agree that giving a history behind characters is a good thing. Take FFIV for example; there wasn't enough history behind the characters. Yeah, we know about Cecil's past guilt, but what else is there really? Keep in mind, even the absence of this didn't keep FFIV from being a great game.


<B>The reason I like the materia system is because of its simplicity (people may say they don't like it to be simple, but compared to the more complex ff8 junction system I think the materia system wins hands down).
I also like the way materia is both useful (the spells/MP increase) and dangerous (HP and Str Reductions) meaning you have to be cautious, and the fact your materia levels up so you don't have to buy loads of new materia at every city as your old ones become weak and obselete.</B>
I didn't like the Junction system. Then again, I don't like much of anything from FFVIII.

I would rather upgrade my materia by purchasing it, instead of leveling it up. I just see that since the game is rather simple, you have to spend a lot of time leveling up the materia to get it really strong. And by the time you have done this, you are that much more bored with the game.


<B>The reasons you have for hating ff7 are justified in your eyes, but I don't understand why we need to justify to you why we like the game just for you to accept that we do like it, maybe we don't all have clear reasons (I know I'm having difficultly saying why I like it), but we still know what we like, and if everyone accepts that we like the game and you hate it then we wont need to keep posting in this thread will we?!
I accept you don't like the game but you ain't gonna make me change my mind about it ;)</B>
Let me ask you a question. If you heard people say "FFVII sucks" over and over again, without ever explaining why, wouldn't you get upset that they are doing that? That is exactly what we are doing. There are more FFVII fans than non-fans. These fans continously say "FFVII is awesome", and all we want to know is why? We said why it isn't, now we just want someone to say why it is. This is nothing more than competitive banter, not fighting.


<B>Oh yeah and I have to mention I new nothing about ff7 when it came out, it was just a game i got with my PS1 and played, so you cant say it was all the advertising that attrated me in my case, oh yeah and I never knew there was a guide book till later on - I played the game without the help of one and still loved it.</B>
Well, how old were you when you bought the game? Because you may have been too young to notice all the publicity and advertising the game received. It's what made me buy the game originally.


<B>Anyway, enough from me, Im tired now I'll read this post in the morning and if I've made a complete idiot of myself I'll edit it when i'm more alert :P</B>
No, you haven't made a complete idiot of yourself. Yet. :)

Wow. Ok lets break this down.

Some of you dont like the game.
Some of us do.
Plain and simple.
I am dissapointed it would come to a point where someone would call me a idiot for liking a game. That is a extremely ignorant thing to do. Am I the stupid one for not spending 16 dollars or so a month on a constant Hack and Slash game with no story or is it that I just dont see the point to playing the same thing over and over all day long and paying for it every month. Hmmmm.. Yup dont feel so stupid anymore. I own that game and wish that I could return that waste of up to 80 or so dollars for 3 months of the same thing. So what I got to run through towns and talk and make teams. Hell I will just go to a chat room if I wanted to talk to people all day long. Or maybe play chess online it has the same level of interest to me. I dont think I am the idiot here my friend.

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
I dont think I am the idiot here my friend.

I think you are. This thread is meant to be a discussion of why FFVII is a good or bad game. It isn't just a "Do you like FFVII?" poll. Do you feel threatened by people that offer opinions that differ from yours?

From what I've seen, no one has called anyone an idiot just for liking a game, except for you. And to do that after saying how stupid it is makes you a hypocrite.

lol. Oh you said it yourself my friend. Had you read up alittle I had already explained why I liked the game. And I came on today to find that someone had said that people who a fantatic of the FF VII series are I think if I remember correctly "complete dumbasses" I dont know how to quote yet so I cant find it myself. But it is back there and I being called an idiot for liking FF VII compared to FF XI. Not a very nice thing to say kiddies. So before you speak please know what you are speaking about.

Why is FF7 Not a good game?

Because you haven't played it before.

Why is FF7 A good game?

Because you have played it before.



Stupid questions get stupid answers.

Cloud_Dmar, there's a big difference between an idiot and a dumbass. By definition, an idiot is a person of low intelligence. You could have an IQ over 200 and still be a dumbass.

Groovytang, practically everyone here has played FFVII. Saying that people who didn't like it haven't played it is just stupid.

And I absolutely agree with MogKnight about rabid FFVII fans being dumbasses. That's because (in general) they never listen, never use reason, and always go on the offensive when someone tries to make them be reasonable. Attacking other people does not serve to make any kind of point, merely to draw attention away from the fact that they can't support their opinions in a reasonable debate.

Again, let me remind you that I am speaking in general terms. There are individuals here and there who can hold their own in support of FFVII, just not many.

Idiot or Dumbass either one is offensive to say to someone who just likes a game. You are stereotyping people by the preference of what games they like. That is stupid. Never listen: What do you think this is? Listen to what? I listen to everyones view on the game. Jesus Christ you people in here a very offesive over a game. Calling someone a dumbass or idiot is ridiculous over liking a game. I am a fantatic by no means. I loved the story, the gameplay, and everything about it. But then again I love the Dark Tower Series. I love Unreal Tournament 2004. I love alot of things. Fantatic by no means. So to call other people who liked the game like me "dumbasses or idiots" makes that person more of a dumbass than any of the people he is referring too. Do I say people that dont like the game are stupid.. Nah Nah? I'm rubber your ..... you get the point. If not, it aint that hard. And for the fact that none of the people who like the game have said anything mean that I have read yet... Makes the people that like it alittle more civil dont you think? This is a debate over what the good points were and were not over a game that came out over almost 7 years ago. So on that note. Can we keep it civil ladies?

Originally posted by Shinra Turk
.....excuse me but are you stoned? Could you have made a better game?

I understand why RM and Smokey hate FF7 fans...


I must say that you hate the game even more and more because of people like these....

But to get on the subject of it being a good game, well Durendal has made a lot of points that you must admit are a well defense and I must agree that I understand why some of you dont think of it that way and that will be with everything every game. I remember that my brother didnt like Shen Mue because the only thing you were doing was asking people about stuff. I liked Shen Mue and well the only thing I can say is that:

Some people like different things, you cant argue about taste.

And I understand why people who played 1 through 6 have a problem with it because what RM said the game was for a different group of people: The entire world, this is indeed where the marketing comes in, but you cant judge a game about marketing. So the bottom line is that Durendal had a lot of point highlighted that are good and RM that are bad it still is your opinion if you like it or not.

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
Idiot or Dumbass either one is offensive to say to someone who just likes a game. You are stereotyping people by the preference of what games they like. That is stupid. Never listen: What do you think this is? Listen to what? I listen to everyones view on the game. Jesus Christ you people in here a very offesive over a game. Calling someone a dumbass or idiot is ridiculous over liking a game. I am a fantatic by no means. I loved the story, the gameplay, and everything about it. But then again I love the Dark Tower Series. I love Unreal Tournament 2004. I love alot of things. Fantatic by no means. So to call other people who liked the game like me "dumbasses or idiots" makes that person more of a dumbass than any of the people he is referring too. Do I say people that dont like the game are stupid.. Nah Nah? I'm rubber your ..... you get the point. If not, it aint that hard. And for the fact that none of the people who like the game have said anything mean that I have read yet... Makes the people that like it alittle more civil dont you think? This is a debate over what the good points were and were not over a game that came out over almost 7 years ago. So on that note. Can we keep it civil ladies?


First, let me say that your posts are hard to read because you don't use proper spacing.

Now, I did not stereotype anyone. I allowed for the fact that not everyone is a certain way. However, the majority of rabid FFVII fans present themselves exactly as I described.

No one called you or anyone else a dumbass just for liking a game. The dumbass part comes in when people act like what I described in my last post.

Allow me to amend my earlier statement about FFVII fans not listening. They do not take the time to comprehend. Any dissenting opinion is the same to them and considered a personal attack.

And as for civility, I haven't said anything uncivil, nor do I unless a personal attack is made against me. And as for saying that FFVII fans not responding to this thread makes them more civil, isn't that stereotyping on your part?

<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>I am dissapointed it would come to a point where someone would call me a idiot for liking a game. That is a extremely ignorant thing to do.</B>
Personally, I never called you an idiot for liking the game. I believe I said more along the lines of "Most FFVII fans act like complete idiots". There is a huge difference between acting like an idiot, and actually being one.


<B>Am I the stupid one for not spending 16 dollars or so a month on a constant Hack and Slash game with no story or is it that I just dont see the point to playing the same thing over and over all day long and paying for it every month.</B>
First of all, I won't ever buy a game where you have to pay a monthly fee. UNLESS, the game was excellent, I had enough money to waste, and the monthly cost wasn't too much. So, I can't really say anything about this one.


<B>I own that game and wish that I could return that waste of up to 80 or so dollars for 3 months of the same thing. So what I got to run through towns and talk and make teams. Hell I will just go to a chat room if I wanted to talk to people all day long. Or maybe play chess online it has the same level of interest to me. I dont think I am the idiot here my friend.</B>
Another sign of a hypocrite. Basically, you are calling us idiots for owning FFXI, because of the monthly fee and such. But, when you think you are being called an idiot for liking FFVII, you snap back and say that it is an ignorant thing to do. Again, I never called you an idiot.


<I>Originally posted by Prak</I>
<B>I think you are. This thread is meant to be a discussion of why FFVII is a good or bad game. It isn't just a "Do you like FFVII?" poll. Do you feel threatened by people that offer opinions that differ from yours?</B>
Well I don't think he is, yet. He is just acting like one right now.


<B>From what I've seen, no one has called anyone an idiot just for liking a game, except for you. And to do that after saying how stupid it is makes you a hypocrite.</B>
Exactly what I said, but you got to it first, and I didn't see it until just now.


<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>lol. Oh you said it yourself my friend. Had you read up alittle I had already explained why I liked the game. And I came on today to find that someone had said that people who a fantatic of the FF VII series are I think if I remember correctly "complete dumbasses" I dont know how to quote yet so I cant find it myself. But it is back there and I being called an idiot for liking FF VII compared to FF XI. Not a very nice thing to say kiddies. So before you speak please know what you are speaking about.</B>
Well, I'm not the one that called you that. That was MogKnight, and I'm sure he has dealt with crap like this more than I have. I'm not saying it is true or not, but when you constantly hear people raving about FFVII, seeing how they act, and not being able to provide solid evidence, you tend to believe that they are idiots. And besides, you're going to get upset when one person calls you something like that?


<I>Originally posted by groovytang</I>
<B>Why is FF7 Not a good game?

Because you haven't played it before.

Why is FF7 A good game?

Because you have played it before.</B>
So, basically you're saying that all of us who don't like the game haven't played it before? That has got to be the most idiotic thing I have read in a while.


<I>Originally posted by Prak</I>
<B>there's a big difference between an idiot and a dumbass. By definition, an idiot is a person of low intelligence. You could have an IQ over 200 and still be a dumbass.</B>
Then what is the definition of a dumbass? No need to look it up, just look at all the FFVII fanatics we have today.


<B>And I absolutely agree with MogKnight about rabid FFVII fans being dumbasses. That's because (in general) they never listen, never use reason, and always go on the offensive when someone tries to make them be reasonable. Attacking other people does not serve to make any kind of point, merely to draw attention away from the fact that they can't support their opinions in a reasonable debate.</B>
The world of FFVII fans would <I>look</I> a lot more intelligent, if they supported their reasoning every now and then. It's rare that you see one of them to it, so an improvement would be every now and then. Basically, there is the world of Final Fantasy fans, and then, separated by a huge margin, is the world of Final Fantasy VII fans.


<B>Again, let me remind you that I am speaking in general terms. There are individuals here and there who can hold their own in support of FFVII, just not many.</B>
And that is why we easily jump the gun and call just about every FFVII fan a complete dumbass. We are so used to it, that we automatically associate the two together. Believe it or not, it's the sad truth.


<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>Idiot or Dumbass either one is offensive to say to someone who just likes a game.</B>
Then you should learn to lighten up a bit, if you get offensive with every little negative comment thrown your way.


<B>You are stereotyping people by the preference of what games they like. That is stupid.</B>
No, what is stupid, is the fact that you don't see how we truly view the FFVII fans to be. I mean seriously, you don't see it the same way we do, because you are one of them. But, if you actually paid very close attention to how FFVII fans act, the vast majority of them act like complete idiots. Why? I don't know. And we aren't stereotyping you for liking FFVII. If you like it, that is fine with me. If you think it is a wonderful game, fine with me. But, here is when the problem starts:

First, we start bashing the game.
Next, you start getting all offensive and crap.
Third, here comes the wave of "FFVII IS DA BEST GAME EVAR!".
Now, the bashers ask you why you believe this.
Next, you don't have any real reasons. You just say it to hear yourself speak. You have believed it for the longest time, without ever really sitting down and thinking "What makes this game so good?"

Now do you understand why the world of FFVII fans appears to be so stupid?


<B>I listen to everyones view on the game.</B>
And we listen to yours, believe it or not.


<B>you people in here a very offesive over a game.</B>
Seriously, here, you sound like a total idiot. You are the one getting very offensive about this.


<B>Calling someone a dumbass or idiot is ridiculous over liking a game.</B>
How many times do I have to repeat myself!? You aren't an idiot for liking a specific game. It's the way you act, the way you speak, and the way you don't back up the game that gives us that judgment of you.


<B>So to call other people who liked the game like me "dumbasses or idiots" makes that person more of a dumbass than any of the people he is referring too.</B>
It doesn't make us more of an idiot. If you actually opened your eyes to what we keep trying to tell you about this whole "YOU'RE AN IDIOT" thing, you would realize the truth behind it.


<B>And for the fact that none of the people who like the game have said anything mean that I have read yet... Makes the people that like it alittle more civil dont you think?</B>
So now, the FFVII fans are acting civilized, while the rest of us aren't? I never knew that calling someone an idiot for not backing up what they say is acting uncivilized!


<B>This is a debate over what the good points were and were not over a game that came out over almost 7 years ago.</B>
There really hasn't been that much of a debate yet, on the part of all you FFVII fans.


<I>Originally posted by Brein</I>
<B>But to get on the subject of it being a good game, well Durendal has made a lot of points that you must admit are a well defense and I must agree that I understand why some of you dont think of it that way and that will be with everything every game.</B>
And you know what the irony is? Durendal isn't acting like a complete dumbass, or a FFVII fanatic either. He is taking this calmly, and actually trying to make it into a debate.


<B>but you cant judge a game about marketing.</B>
Yes you can. A big factor that made FFVII such a popular game when it first came out, and ultimately, the self-promoted tag of "Greatest Game Ever", was the fact that everyone knew about it. Everyone learned so much more about this game before it came out, than previous Final Fantasy games. This just made the people thirst for the game even more. They purchased what they saw in marketing, which was the outside cover. They were addicted to this game. So yeah, we can judge it by how it was marketed.

Well I'm tired so I'm going to throw someone else's 2 cents in.


I should start off by saying I don't hate ALL final fantasy games, and I've played all of them up to a point. The Final fantasy series used to be synonamous with quality all of them in english for the SNES and I love them all. I just think that since FF7, the game has worn out its story and its like a really bad movie franchise that is trying to suck the money out of people. There has not been new innovation in that game since 7 except for graphics which shouldn't make a game better than another. Every new one is the same old such and such character going to save some small part of his life (friend love interests ect, ect) then gets caught up in some big conspiracy that threatens the world (sound familiar?). There are always summons and magic ect ect. The game hasn't changed in over 5 years and people still buy the product. Thats not to say that it can't be done well. The best game was Final Fantasy tactics, and since then none have equaled. The storyline in that game was amazing and realistic. People actually die in that game, people turn on each other and war is made out to be a very very bad thing. It had huge undertones with Religion (no I mean real religion not like the stuff they tried to put out in FFX) where religious zealotry causes fear bigotry and death. Also in the new games, I just feel like I'm playing a cookie cuttered story with candy apple characters whenever I play anything above FF-7. Its like i'm playing a game of cliches now. Its like its been dumbed down for the level of children. If want a real hero i'll play as Ramza Belouve in tactics ... that was a real heroic character that had HUGE character development. Play Tactics and you will see what I mean.

Also most of the FF line isn't really an RPG. Since the SNES games all FF has become is a storyline that you followed to get to the end of a story. there were always the ultimate combinations. In FF8 you might as well not use anything but summons since they could do 9999 damage which no physical attack could do. yeesh. Play a game like Baldurs Gate and they you will see what a real RPG is like.

well thats the end of my vent. Please come and criticize. I'm just sick and tired about people raving about how Final Fantasy is the greatest thing and how FFX-2 is the only sequal and its going to be great. No its not. I'm done with squaresoft now, all I can see now is them ripping the series for all its worth, not changing it just so they can make as much money off of it as possible.


http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5212

And finally:



Final Fantasy 7----^

Yeah Hanh, nice example for the kind of fan statement that makes me wish FFVII never would have existed, so idiots like that would shut up and not act as if FFVII was the peak of innovation. GAH.
It's not even fun anymore. If people cannot love FFVII WITHOUT hating everything that came later, what the heck?!

It's exactly this "Square should have stopped making games after FFVII" attitude that pisses me off.

Haha. Interesting front cover.

Hmmm... I would like to argue more for the game, but my mind is kinda set against it now. My argument for longevity was probably because I had nothing better to do, and my argument for innovation was only because I hadn't played the earlier games at the time...

I guess I should retire or something.

OKAY... Lets talk about Character Development!

Hi, my name is MogKnight and I'm a level 31... well, 30 Bard. In my world in which we call Vana'diel, we're under constant attack from the Beastmen. I am a regular citizen of Windurst, I enjoy eating apple pies... heck, you give me an apple pie, I'll be your best friend forever. I also like taking trips between my house and the local Auction House.... you know, the place where we trade goods. Every time I go there, I look around to see if there's anyone I know around and give a wave or two.

I really enjoy fishing, practically like pulling money out of the water. What really pisses me off though is when you get something completely dumb that no one uses.... throw it away and fish again. There was this one time where I fished with my friends on the ship to Selbina... something huge attacked us and I was changed forever when he practially destroyed my friends. I wanted to fight that monster but I was too weak at the time... and still am. I intend to fish him out and destroy him and everything he stands for.

I do love a few people in Windurst... but I can't reveal them. They already have someone else and really, I can't just tell them straight out without ruining a good friendship. But I try to keep my Linkshell entertained with stories and folklore. Though sometimes I sit by myself, thinking about a horrible.. presense... something awful was going to happen and when that time comes, I have to fight. This fight, whatever it maybe, could determine who will be left standing in the end... either our allied nations or the beastmen.

I'm not exactly a hero but I've done many things in my life. I remember going through the Pashow Marsh with just my Chocobo and it ran off on me. It was so dark and gloomy that I could not find my way. I found a dead Tarutaru on the floor... I really did not want to end up like him, I strived to stay alive and managed to. I could not put it into words really but it was a great experience.

But who am I to the people of Windurst? Just a Tarutaru, no hero, nothing big. Just a Bard who sings his songs, keeping the party revved up. I also have Rivals such as Typo who is really just an eyesore!

I am MogKnight, a Level 30 Bard... how about you Cloud Strife? What is your favorite food? What do you like to do? Any memorable moments? Do you have any rivals? How about sports? I like playing Ballista. How about those you love? I've lost many on the battlefield, more than I would want to lose... so many lost... friends and allies... how about you? I heard you're a Hero, saving the world. I'm greatful for that but... really, who are you? Do you like to take jogs like me? It's kinda fun you know!

Originally posted by MogKnight
OKAY... Lets talk about Character Development!

Hi, my name is MogKnight and I'm a level 31... well, 30 Bard. In my world in which we call Vana'diel, we're under constant attack from the Beastmen. I am a regular citizen of Windurst, I enjoy eating apple pies... heck, you give me an apple pie, I'll be your best friend forever. I also like taking trips between my house and the local Auction House.... you know, the place where we trade goods. Every time I go there, I look around to see if there's anyone I know around and give a wave or two.

I really enjoy fishing, practically like pulling money out of the water. What really pisses me off though is when you get something completely dumb that no one uses.... throw it away and fish again. There was this one time where I fished with my friends on the ship to Selbina... something huge attacked us and I was changed forever when he practially destroyed my friends. I wanted to fight that monster but I was too weak at the time... and still am. I intend to fish him out and destroy him and everything he stands for.

I do love a few people in Windurst... but I can't reveal them. They already have someone else and really, I can't just tell them straight out without ruining a good friendship. But I try to keep my Linkshell entertained with stories and folklore. Though sometimes I sit by myself, thinking about a horrible.. presense... something awful was going to happen and when that time comes, I have to fight. This fight, whatever it maybe, could determine who will be left standing in the end... either our allied nations or the beastmen.

I'm not exactly a hero but I've done many things in my life. I remember going through the Pashow Marsh with just my Chocobo and it ran off on me. It was so dark and gloomy that I could not find my way. I found a dead Tarutaru on the floor... I really did not want to end up like him, I strived to stay alive and managed to. I could not put it into words really but it was a great experience.

But who am I to the people of Windurst? Just a Tarutaru, no hero, nothing big. Just a Bard who sings his songs, keeping the party revved up. I also have Rivals such as Typo who is really just an eyesore!

I am MogKnight, a Level 30 Bard... how about you Cloud Strife? What is your favorite food? What do you like to do? Any memorable moments? Do you have any rivals? How about sports? I like playing Ballista. How about those you love? I've lost many on the battlefield, more than I would want to lose... so many lost... friends and allies... how about you? I heard you're a Hero, saving the world. I'm greatful for that but... really, who are you? Do you like to take jogs like me? It's kinda fun you know!


STFU and get a life

lol, i think i went to far joining this video game chatroom for Nerds, I'm outta here.

Originally posted by groovytang
STFU and get a life

lol, i think i went to far joining this video game chatroom for Nerds, I'm outta here.
Please avoid off-topic idiocy, groovytang.

I am greatly offended and I hope your home town of Oklahoma sinks to the ground. :(

All in seriousness though, those who need to offend others kinda end up with nothing to say... so uh... checkmate? I think I won.

Yeah, after reading all that I've come to the decision that the following RPG's pwn the holy living shit out of FF7:

Valkyrie Profile
Legend of Legaia
Star Ocean: The Second Story

There are others, but these have comparable graphics and came out around the same time (unless I'm totally off, as they were all out at the same time when I actually bought FF7, all on the "new games" shelf at the store).

Each of them with incredible battle systems, musical scores and awesome storylines that utterly blow FF 7 out of the water.

So yeah, while I don't wish FF7 fans would dry up and just blow away, I wish they'd pick up one of the three RPG's I've just listed and try them.

They may have their eyes opened as to just how Square screwed them out of $20.

Originally posted by Smokey

And you know what the irony is? Durendal isn't acting like a complete dumbass, or a FFVII fanatic either. He is taking this calmly, and actually trying to make it into a debate.

Yes I am calm as well am I?

Marketing no reason for a bad game.


Originally posted by Smokey

Yes you can. A big factor that made FFVII such a popular game when it first came out, and ultimately, the self-promoted tag of "Greatest Game Ever", was the fact that everyone knew about it. Everyone learned so much more about this game before it came out, than previous Final Fantasy games. This just made the people thirst for the game even more. They purchased what they saw in marketing, which was the outside cover. They were addicted to this game. So yeah, we can judge it by how it was marketed.

No if any other game that you think is great has been thrown in your face over and over again on television the game would still be the same right? So the game cannot be judged by the way it was marketed because a game is a game and offcourse more people will buy it because they know of it through marketing but the game will always be the same, good or bad marketing.

You can judge the people playing the game by the marketing because every person that says yeah ff7 is tha bomb bla bla has been influenced by the marketing but the game? no it is not bad because more people are told about it.

Originally posted by Brein
<B>No if any other game that you think is great has been thrown in your face over and over again on television the game would still be the same right? So the game cannot be judged by the way it was marketed because a game is a game and offcourse more people will buy it because they know of it through marketing but the game will always be the same, good or bad marketing.</B>
Actually, no. Let's take another great game for example. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is an excellent game. Sure, there was advertising and marketing for it, but not nearly as much as FFVII. If it had received the special treatment that FFVII had, KOTOR would be a lot more popular it is right now. And yes, people would view it as being a lot better, because they would have been able to see what the game truly has to offer, without first buying it. A huge reason FFVII became what it is today is from the incredible amount of marketing it received.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I believe this. FFVII is the most marketed game in history. Just look at AC, and Before Crisis. Whether you believe it or not, this movie and game is a gimmick in trying to make sure FFVII does go down as the greatest game in history. Don't you find it coincidence that so many people see FFVII as the best game ever when it received as much marketing as it did?


<B>You can judge the people playing the game by the marketing because every person that says yeah ff7 is tha bomb bla bla has been influenced by the marketing but the game? no it is not bad because more people are told about it.</B>
Yes. People who say FFVII is the bomb, have been greatly influenced by the marketing.

I honestly didn't read a lot of this thread, I just wanna touch on one thing.... How did aeris "sacrrfice" herself? She was just killed... she didn't actually help anything. Sephiroth just came down and killed her ass for no reason.

Actually your threads(mainly Rabid Monkey's and Smokey's)
changed my mind.
I'm now thinking I had been overrating this game, it's still cool though.
I was indeed a FF7 Fan, who didn't come up with specific evidence for why I thought FF7 was the best.

Uh, there are some things for me to say though.
The Materia System is great, surely it was fun to think of various kind of combinatioins.
Yes, it made characters not individual, but I thought it was done for some reason.
The reason for players don't choose characters because of just their status.
You know it's kind of a pity when you like a character in a game but he/she is so weak or can't work on your tactics.
Provided that doesn't happen, you can choose whatever characters you like without worrying, but if you complain about system that makes characters not individual, it's same as systems in some other FFs such as Job in FF5 and Junction in FF8.

It's obvious they put Limit Breaks to let characters have something to distinguish, it didn't really work well , but better than nothing.

The story is cool but,,,, I don't think I judged it calmly during my first playing, probably I was sucked in it not because of storyline but because of its new things that RPGs at the time didn't have, such as cool graphics, the whole aspect based on semi-modern period.
The RPGs generally had aspects of old western, like soldier riding on horse, something like that, maybe there were RPGs based on the modern time, anyway I didn't think there were, correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, this was my first RPG and it actually made me think this game was great.

How did aeris "sacrrfice" herself? She was just killed... she didn't actually help anything. Sephiroth just came down and killed her ass for no reason.
Didn't she know that Sephiroth was coming to kill, if she started spelling Holly?

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I distinctly remember sitting and staring at the screen going "couldn't they space this out more?" Everything you get is in large clumps. I will give you that the clumps may be spread throughout the game, but all the information you get is pilled on top of itself at seemingly random parts of the game, rather than spread out evenly throughout the entire game, making for choppy gameplay as well as causing the story to suffer (if you won�t admit that the story suffers because of that at least concede that it hinders the progression of the game by having to sit through 10 minutes of talk).

Yes, you do get information in clumps, but not everything is in large clumps, there are smaller clumps too. Also most rpgs give you information in clumps, it works, unless you want half minute dialogues after every fight clumps is the way to go. Sitting through 10 minutes of talk can be annoying, but it can also be done well (the Nibblehiem flashback comes to mind). I really don't think 10 minutes of talk hinders the game much, now if you end up with more talk than actual gameplay (i.e. FFX) then it becomes a problem.


You pretty much saw Kefka throughout the entire world of Balance in FFVI, you also know exactly where he is in the World of Ruin. You saw Golbez an awful lot in FFIV. In FFV Gilgamesh is frekin everywhere, though he was closest to Rufus in the regards that they just sort of threw him in there whenever they needed a boss or something.

Maybe it's just me but Kefka seemed like comic relief for most of the WOB, and in the WOR he's just that guy in the tower that burns villages every so often. I can't really comment on Gobez or Gilgamesh since it's been over two years since I last played FFIV, and my FFV game file has gotten deleted on 3 seperate occasions when I was roughly 7 hours into the game and I'm just sick of that begining. There are more than just the main villains too, my comment was aimed more along those lines. I feel Rufus had a place in the game and wasn't just random, a boss like that giant lizard guy when Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris are thrown into the sewers by the Don would fit under random.


Go back to my first post. The only reason I played it a second time was to check to see what I missed. I'm not sure if I specifically SAID that in my first post, so I can see why you would mention this. I really had no intention of playing it again once I beat it, but my friends hounded me about how I HAD to have missed something because I didn't use the guide.

Just to find a few things that I might have missed, if I didn't enjoy the game at all, would never convince me to replay a game that lasts more than a few hours. Which is why I assumed there was something you enjoyed in that first playthrough, if this assumption is wrong then you can just ignore everything I've said pertaining to it.


Then I wait for the day you come on to FFShrine and say that the game blew chunks. :P

I'll be waiting for that day too, but I get the strange feeling we'll both be waiting a very, very long time :cool:


Can you give examples? Not trying to be difficult, I just can't think of any and I don't know if it is because there isn't any, or because I'm just naturally prone to think there isn't.

How about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa? The game never flat out tells you wether it's a repressed romance or a brotherly and sisterly kind of love.


I doubt surveys have been done, and seem as it is complete speculation on our part there really isn't any way to PROVE it, but it really does seem like it was meant to be presented to an audience around the ages of 12-16. I wonder how easy it would be to get an answer from Square on this one.

I agree the game seems to have been marketed to 12-16 year olds, what I meant was that 12-16 year olds was an older group than the average NES/SNES gamers. Good luck getting an answer out of Square, I doubt if many of the people involved with the marketing still worked there, or if they do that they would bother answering about a game 7 years old.


I have no problem with people that aren't out to prove that FFVII is the greatest game in the world or that it has the most amazing story ever written. The fact of the matters is that the story in FFV is horrid, but I LOVE the game because it is just so entertaining to play. What irks me, and is the main reason I made this thread to begin with, are those people who feel that FFVII is the greatest game (or even THING) to ever grace this world, and that blindly say so without having anything to back it up

Yeah, those who seem to think this game was handed down to mankind from God himself and constantly say things like "Cloud rOxOrs" or "Sephy makes me cream jeans!" are annoying. But the title of this thread is "FF7 - Why it ISN'T a good game" and how your first post was worded seemed to try and prove that this is a bad game, I'm simply defending my opinion of this being a good game.


I don't know... I got pretty damn addicted to Blitzball, and I really didn't like playing the mini-games in FFVII. The only one I really enjoyed was racing chocobos, but there are only so many times you can go around that track before it gets outright repetitive. I'm kind of running low on time so I'm going to try and keep this short. But, I do have to comment on how the storyline seemed much more straightforward in terms of what you had to do next in the game, which is why I made the last comment in the paragraph you quoted. There is never any question in the characters mind as to what must be done or where they have to go. That's the point I was trying to get across.

Blitzball was a great mini-game, in fact I thought Blitzball was the best thing about FFX, but that's for another time. You'll noticed I said "allmost all", which leaves room for the few that are as fun, or even more fun (GASP!?) than FFVII, but there aren't many. There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII. That's not to say there were some real stinkers in FFVII too, the basketball arcade game anyone? You have to admit it's hard to argue with the variety and quality of mini-games in FFVII when compared to the vast majority of rpgs.


Hence why I called it a cop out. There's no ENDING, it's just "yeah, it's all plants now, see ya". An ending to a book, a story, or a game should leave you with more than you started. It's ok to leave you hanging in some respects, but to just completely write out every single character from the ending but one is kind of, for lack of a better term, crappy. The fact is that it DOES NOT leave you with a sense of completeness and, for the majority of people; it was more a reaction of "what the fuck is this?" Hence the Matrix reference.

Well there is an ending, and considering that you start with nothing the ending leaves you with a lot more than that. After watching the ending, sitting through the credits, and seeing the final ending movie I felt the story was completed very well (which is why I'm not a big fan of the FFVII:AC concept).


In a short answer, it's not. However, the ending for FFIV worked much better for that particular game than the ending of FFVII worked for it, for all the reasons I've said.

I feel both endings worked well for their respective games, I just happen to prefer the FFVII ending. FFVII was a darker game, so it fits that the ending be darker as well.


I don't think anyone let someone get to near death just to see the limit breaks, and if they did it wouldn�t be in a situation that the party was in any real danger. However, two comments I have to make. First is that if you need extra oomph in battles where you receive a lot of damage then wouldn't it also be reasonable to assume that if your characters are spending enough time at "near death" status to be able to use their limits that you would need that extra oomph? The second point would be that you could argue the Limit system in FFVII makes it too easy to kill bosses because you could have your limit fill out without being in any serious danger, meaning you get an extra powerful attack that tips the scales in a challenging battle so far in your favor that it makes it an easy battle instead, ruining some of the gameplay aspect. This same argument doesn't work with FFVI because, as you pointed out, it is dangerous to stay at a near death status.

I didn't say people let someone get to/stay at near death just to use the limit breaks, just that it was dangerous so using the limit breaks instead of brining the character's health up wasn't a very good idea, hence limit breaks were very rarely used (I think I saw two of them the last time I played FFVI). None of the limit breaks in FFVII could give you such an advantage as to make a hard fight easy just by using a limit break, until you get the final limit breaks for a few characters, but that doesn't happen until the end game and even then you need to do side-quests to get them, so for the vast majority of the game limit breaks won't make challenging fights easy.


Terra and Celes are the only two that I see as really unbalanced in FFVI. Locke had steal, or mug, which really takes a lot of devotion on the player's part to make powerful. Edgar never really had that powerful magic when I played with him. Besides, the hardest part of FFVI is Kefka's tower. If you were to assume that all 4 of those characters was unbalanced, merely having them in your 3 parties would NOT mean that you could get through that blasted thing. However, in FFVII you only listed 2 of 9 characters as being unable to use a decent amount of magic. From what I remember the only character that is really weak physically is Areis, and like I said, she isn't in your final party. This means that you have at least 7 versatile characters to use. The most parties you ever have to make are 2. This means that you don't even have to use the characters that aren't easily exchangeable ability wise.

I was using those 4 characters to show that there have been characters before FFVII that can fill any role. And 4 characters fills the entire party in FFVI, except for the few times you need to split up your party those 4 are versatile enough to deal with anything. Cait Sith and Yuffie really aren't good with either magic or physical attacks, so that leaves 5 versatile characters, and even so I don't see how this contributes to FFVII being a bad game.


This was a separate point from paragraph before it in my post. It was more of a comment on the fact that you can't customize your abilities for what you need in games like that and instead have to work with what you have, as opposed to FFVII where you can make anyone whatever you need at any given time. It wasn't a comment about having to think more or less, though I COULD argue that FFVII still requires less thinking because instead of having to figure out how each character's abilities best complement each other you can MAKE that character either a) complement the other members of the party or b) make 3 completely independent characters, depending on your needs at that given time.

The fact that you have a choice like that suggests that thinking needs to be done.


Since my last post I actually talked with someone I knew that was working in a store that sells games at the time FFVII came out. Turns out that they were, in fact, told to offer the guide when the game sold. I couldn't say if it was the same for each store, and he didn't know if it was just that one store or every store that sold FFVII. However, the fact is that, at least at that one store, the clerks were told to pressure people to buy the guide with FFVII. They were also never pressured to sell a guide for another game before or since. Well, I can't say that. They might have after he quit a year ago. For the record, I didn't go and ask him, I happened to be talking with him about past jobs and it just sort of popped into my head to ask him when he brought up the toy store.

Ok so it did happen, but isn't that the coice of each individual retailer to have their clerks pressure customers?


You could still get far enough in the game with the 2-3 days to see if you like it or not, though

2-3 days of playing this game from the begining and I'd still be in Midgar or just have left that city, the game changes a lot from the midgar section to when you can explore the world map.



Regarding Odin's post:

Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean: The Second Story are both amazing games (I found Legend of Legia to be very average), but just because better games are out there does not make FFVII a bad one.

Thank you durendal. I could not have said it any better.

I especially like your last comment. Yes there are other great games out there. As a matter of fact I think I have played almost everyone out there. And because there are great games out there does not make FFVII a bad game.

I personally enjoyed Star Ocean: A Second Story. Which is why I will be going out to buy Star Ocean 3. (Sorry forgot the Title). I also think that Chrono Trigger was a great RPG. Final Fantasy Tatics was great. Legend of Dragoon also. I also enjoyed FFX. But it was extremely easy. Not a bad game but easy. I have not ran across a bad RPG since Shadow Hearts. Which is why I didnt complete it.

And if this game is so bad then why did you finish it? It was good enough to keep your interest for one go around. Of course there are flaws. Geez it was Squares first attempt on the Playstation. They didnt have much to work with.

And what is wrong with marketing? Sure Square was famous with all the hard core RPGers but was there really alot of them out there at that time? They needed an audience. Or we wouldnt be here today. We wouldnt have games like FFX to say "Man that was easy". Or Before Crisis. Or FFXIII. Or SquareEnix. No we wouldnt.

Yes it was a gateway game. So what? Does that make it a bad game. Not at all. Smartly made. Made for the general. Made easy to play. General Story. One most could follow and enjoy. A great Villian. An interesting magic system. You dont like it because it didnt have complexity. No jobs. No challenge. To me it was a challenge. To me it was complex. To me the story wasnt straight foward. I enjoyed the twist and turns. I enjoyed its simplicity. It was fun. It made me laugh. At points I felt sad. The music was rememberable. This is to me. Not you. Does that make it a bad game. Not by my standards. Mine.

This is where the hard part comes to play. I understand to the HardCore Veterans it was a simple pointless game. But to me. It was a game sent from the Gods at SquareSoft. No I am not a fantatic but I remember what got me started on my RPG rampage. And back into Video games. I really enjoyed the game. Why? Why you want to know? What was so great about it? Let me just say it still makes me laugh. I still love finding and buying the Materia. Hearing of its orgin. Watching Sepithroth go crazy. Fighting the Turks. This discussion is like agruing over a movie. It all depends on the views of the person. Some may like it. Some may not. Do you not understand that? Agruing opinions is like agruing different religions. Nobody is wrong but nobody is going to convince the other that they are right.

Originally posted by Durendal
<B>Sitting through 10 minutes of talk can be annoying, but it can also be done well(the Nibblehiem flashback comes to mind).</B>
That is probably the only scene that comes to mind, not just the first one.


<B>Maybe it's just me but Kefka seemed like comic relief for most of the WOB, and in the WOR he's just that guy in the tower that burns villages every so often.</B>
Well, Kefka did have some funny lines, if that is what you mean by comic relief. But that's a different topic.


<B>I can't really comment on Gobez</B>
The great thing about FFIV is you think that Golbez is the villian of the game for a long time. Golbez controls Kain during two points in the game. But then, you find out, that someone is in fact controlling Golbez. And that is Zemus (Later to be found out as Zemorus). So, there was a long chain of manipulating in this game, and I thought it was great.


<B>I feel Rufus had a place in the game and wasn't just random</B>
I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus's father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn't add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can't be stopped.


<B>How about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa? The game never flat out tells you wether it's a repressed romance or a brotherly and sisterly kind of love.</B>
And that is pretty dumb as well. You sit there thinking a lot more about whether Tifa or Aeris deserves Cloud more than you should. It would have been better if something like this was settled.


<B>There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII.</B>
The motorcycle game is fun when you play it two or three times. Then, just like almost all the mini-games in FFVII, they become stale very quickly.


<B>You have to admit it's hard to argue with the variety and quality of mini-games in FFVII when compared to the vast majority of rpgs.</B>
Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don't feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren't mini-games supposed to give you <I>at least</I> a descent reward?


<B>After watching the ending, sitting through the credits, and seeing the final ending movie I felt the story was completed very well (which is why I'm not a big fan of the FFVII:AC concept).</B>
Yes, I thought the ending wrapped things up pretty nicely. It's just not very good at all. I admit, I will watch AC when it comes out. But, I still don't see how they can make a sequel to the game. Maybe Square just wanted to squeeze more money from FFVII. They may also believe that the ending of FFVII wrapped things up rather nicely, and that is why they made a sequel into a movie, and not a game. There is a huge difference as to what you can put into a movie, next to a game. So, maybe the sequel is a movie because they didn't want to make another game that could possibly make FFVII appear worse, and less popular.

Also, this is about the character situation in FFVI. There are just too many, period. Seven or eight is a reasonable ammount, but 14!?


<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>Thank you durendal. I could not have said it any better.</B>
Yes, you are correct on this one. In fact, you couldn't have said anything for reliable evidence.


<B>I especially like your last comment. Yes there are other great games out there. As a matter of fact I think I have played almost everyone out there. And because there are great games out there does not make FFVII a bad game.</B>
I highly doubt that you have played every great game out there. And besides, I'm pretty sure none of us said a factor that makes FFVII a bad game is the fact that there are other great games out there.


<B>I also think that Chrono Trigger was a great RPG.</B>
You finally said something worth reading.


<B>And if this game is so bad then why did you finish it? It was good enough to keep your interest for one go around. Of course there are flaws. Geez it was Squares first attempt on the Playstation. They didnt have much to work with.</B>
Why wouldn't we finish it? It's not like while we were playing it, the thought of "This game will suck through the very end, so I don't need to finish it" came through our minds. There was no way for us to know if it would get any better or any worse. That is why we play on 'til the very end. And let me emphasize a point you said. Yes, it was good enough that it KEPT ME INTERESTED FOR ONE GO AROUND. Meaning, I wasn't hooked to the game while playing it. I wouldn't die if I weren't able to play it all the time. When I had free time, I would play it, because it KEPT ME INTERESTED. I didn't say the game was interesting, I just said it KEPT ME INTERESTED. See my point?


<B>And what is wrong with marketing?</B> There is nothing wrong with marketing at all. But, it's a problem when you do it solely for the purpose of boosting sales. I mean seriously, FFVII is the most money-milking game in history, there is no doubt about it. Seven years after it came out, Square is still trying to market the game. They need to leave it alone, and concentrate on more important aspects of gaming.


<B>Yes it was a gateway game. So what? Does that make it a bad game. Not at all. Smartly made. Made for the general. Made easy to play. General Story. One most could follow and enjoy. A great Villian. An interesting magic system. You dont like it because it didnt have complexity. No jobs. No challenge. To me it was a challenge. To me it was complex. To me the story wasnt straight foward. I enjoyed the twist and turns. I enjoyed its simplicity. It was fun. It made me laugh. At points I felt sad. The music was rememberable. This is to me. Not you. Does that make it a bad game. Not by my standards. Mine.</B>
You are overreacting, just like all the FFVII fans when they hear someone say something negative about the game.


<B>This is where the hard part comes to play. I understand to the HardCore Veterans it was a simple pointless game. But to me. It was a game sent from the Gods at SquareSoft.</B>
If you are to be considered a "God" at SquareSoft (Called that at the time), I would hope you would need to write and create a brilliant game.


<B>I really enjoyed the game. Why? Why you want to know? What was so great about it? Let me just say it still makes me laugh. I still love finding and buying the Materia. Hearing of its orgin. Watching Sepithroth go crazy. Fighting the Turks.</B>
You love the game because it makes you laugh? You love spending a ton of Gil on Materia? You love watching Sephiroth go crazy? You love fighting the Turks? To all these questions, I ask why? I mean, when you saw Sephiroth go crazy, you just didn't suddenly think "I love this!". No, there is a reason why you had to think that.

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar

Yes it was a gateway game. So what? Does that make it a bad game. Not at all. Smartly made. Made for the general. Made easy to play. General Story. One most could follow and enjoy. A great Villian. An interesting magic system. You dont like it because it didnt have complexity. No jobs. No challenge. To me it was a challenge. To me it was complex. To me the story wasnt straight foward. I enjoyed the twist and turns. I enjoyed its simplicity. It was fun. It made me laugh. At points I felt sad. The music was rememberable. This is to me. Not you. Does that make it a bad game. Not by my standards. Mine.

Yeah, thank you for sounding like you're a guy with a life and I'm not. Is it true? Probably. But you know what, I really doubt that this thread is about how good or bad the game is anymore. No, this thread is really about how the "hardcore" hate the "casuals".

Just to say it straight out, if you like the game, good. If you hate the game, good. Just don't say anything about your opinion towards liking this game or not because frankly I'm tired of it and so are many others. The "hardcore" are offending the "casuals" and like wise. Normally opinions are free to lay out... but of course, so are counter-opinions. But sometimes we just need to listen to our 3rd grade teacher or our parents when they say "Keep your thoughts to yourself."

Right now, this post brings a lot of good points from both sides but to put it bluntly, it's just like saying "your mom's stupid" or "my mom is the greatest mom in the world and everyone else's mom doesn't matter". Someone is bound to be offended and they'll talk back.

This topic is getting old... heck, I want to slap RM for making a thread like this but I'd probably have my eyes gauged out. Yes he presented points and yeah I've done the same thing before. But now I realize that it doesn't matter. You're still going to defend your precious Final Fantasy 7 and we're going to bitch because you're making a god out of a rock. Maybe both sides just need to shut up and talk about something else constructive like what kind of Music would Cloud be associated with... or what would the Final Fantasy 7 characters do after leveling up... maybe go to a pub or something and play Cricket.

Basically all I'm saying is that whatever is in this thread, only Smokey, Durandel, probably RM... I dunno I haven't looked back, cares to actually post.

Also, we should all go out and have a drink of beer.

Minigames:

Originally posted by Smokey

The motorcycle game is fun when you play it two or three times. Then, just like almost all the mini-games in FFVII, they become stale very quickly.


Well it is a MINI-game so it means you cant spend 10 hours on it. It is just meant to be fun for 1 or 2 hours and maybe later you can play it again for an hour (sometimes even more time then you would need to finish an entire game). And I must admit Blitzball is an exception that game is great, but gets stale after a period of time as well so...


Originally posted by Smokey

There is nothing wrong with marketing at all. But, it's a problem when you do it solely for the purpose of boosting sales. I mean seriously, FFVII is the most money-milking game in history, there is no doubt about it. Seven years after it came out, Square is still trying to market the game. They need to leave it alone, and concentrate on more important aspects of gaming.


Ow I learned at school that marketing is used only for boosting sales.

And to get back at marketing making it a bad game, how can that be? Yes the view of people is other then when it is not marketed but the game doesnt change because there is marketing for it or not. It is impossible to judge a game because of the way it is marketed, yes you can judge the view of the game because a lot of people think the game is better because of this marketing.

I�m from the Netherlands and I have seen maybe 2 commercials of the game so marketing in the Netherlands was not really big or anything... I first knew about the game because of CVG (computer & Video Games) and I got totally mad because of what they were saying and thats why we got it, because of good previews and reviews.


Originally posted by MogKnight


Yeah, thank you for sounding like you're a guy with a life and I'm not. Is it true? Probably. But you know what, I really doubt that this thread is about how good or bad the game is anymore. No, this thread is really about how the "hardcore" hate the "casuals".

Just to say it straight out, if you like the game, good. If you hate the game, good. Just don't say anything about your opinion towards liking this game or not because frankly I'm tired of it and so are many others. The "hardcore" are offending the "casuals" and like wise. Normally opinions are free to lay out... but of course, so are counter-opinions. But sometimes we just need to listen to our 3rd grade teacher or our parents when they say "Keep your thoughts to yourself."

Right now, this post brings a lot of good points from both sides but to put it bluntly, it's just like saying "your mom's stupid" or "my mom is the greatest mom in the world and everyone else's mom doesn't matter". Someone is bound to be offended and they'll talk back.

This topic is getting old... heck, I want to slap RM for making a thread like this but I'd probably have my eyes gauged out. Yes he presented points and yeah I've done the same thing before. But now I realize that it doesn't matter. You're still going to defend your precious Final Fantasy 7 and we're going to bitch because you're making a god out of a rock. Maybe both sides just need to shut up and talk about something else constructive like what kind of Music would Cloud be associated with... or what would the Final Fantasy 7 characters do after leveling up... maybe go to a pub or something and play Cricket.

Basically all I'm saying is that whatever is in this thread, only Smokey, Durandel, probably RM... I dunno I haven't looked back, cares to actually post.

Also, we should all go out and have a drink of beer.

This is the smartest thing I�ve read in this thread!!! Let�s stop this.. Get a beer its Saturday!!

Originally posted by Durendal
Yes, you do get information in clumps, but not everything is in large clumps, there are smaller clumps too. Also most rpgs give you information in clumps, it works, unless you want half minute dialogues after every fight clumps is the way to go. Sitting through 10 minutes of talk can be annoying, but it can also be done well (the Nibblehiem flashback comes to mind). I really don't think 10 minutes of talk hinders the game much, now if you end up with more talk than actual gameplay (i.e. FFX) then it becomes a problem.

Actually, it seems to me that there is far more talk in FFVII than any other FF that I've played. The party ALWAYS seems to be stopping and just having a 10-15 minute conversation. This is part of what largely hindered the reply value for me, as well. Games that you have to sit though large dialogs just get really annoying when you already know the story. For example, I really like playing FFTA but every time I feel like starting a new game I just don't because the opening is so frekin long I would rather just play DW4 instead or something.


Maybe it's just me but Kefka seemed like comic relief for most of the WOB, and in the WOR he's just that guy in the tower that burns villages every so often.

In the WOB he is introduced through comic relief, but throughout the story he evolves into just this hideously evil person. They add a good amount of humor in there, but that just adds to the shock when you find out that he is mainly just a conniving bastard bent on becoming the most powerful being in the world.


I can't really comment on Gobez or Gilgamesh since it's been over two years since I last played FFIV, and my FFV game file has gotten deleted on 3 seperate occasions when I was roughly 7 hours into the game and I'm just sick of that begining. There are more than just the main villains too, my comment was aimed more along those lines. I feel Rufus had a place in the game and wasn't just random, a boss like that giant lizard guy when Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris are thrown into the sewers by the Don would fit under random.

Golbez isn't the last boss in FFIV, as for Gilgamesh, he is this guy that just constantly pops up out of nowhere to cause your party trouble, with no real reason. Much like Rufus.


Just to find a few things that I might have missed, if I didn't enjoy the game at all, would never convince me to replay a game that lasts more than a few hours. Which is why I assumed there was something you enjoyed in that first playthrough, if this assumption is wrong then you can just ignore everything I've said pertaining to it.

It was mainly because my friends didn't believe that I could have possibly gotten everything so they forced me to replay it. Truth be known, when I got near the end I read ahead in the guide and realized I hadn't missed anything in the rest of the game. Once I knew that I didn't even bother completing it the second time.


How about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa? The game never flat out tells you wether it's a repressed romance or a brotherly and sisterly kind of love.

I always thought that it was pretty obvious what was going on there. :/


I agree the game seems to have been marketed to 12-16 year olds, what I meant was that 12-16 year olds was an older group than the average NES/SNES gamers.

Mind showing me where you got this statistic from?


Yeah, those who seem to think this game was handed down to mankind from God himself and constantly say things like "Cloud rOxOrs" or "Sephy makes me cream jeans!" are annoying. But the title of this thread is "FF7 - Why it ISN'T a good game" and how your first post was worded seemed to try and prove that this is a bad game, I'm simply defending my opinion of this being a good game.

I don't think it is a good game. And I am trying to prove it isn't a good game. However, I don't have a problem with someone who likes it as long as he or she just doesn't blindly like it. If someone likes it then fine, but I'm going to pretty much always think that the person's reasons for liking the game are silly. Hope that doesn't come across as offensive, but it's true. Unless of course the person is like "it was the first game I every played, and it was with my brother who passed away" or something. In that case I can understand why the game would hold a special place for that person.


Blitzball was a great mini-game, in fact I thought Blitzball was the best thing about FFX, but that's for another time. You'll noticed I said "allmost all", which leaves room for the few that are as fun, or even more fun (GASP!?) than FFVII, but there aren't many. There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII. That's not to say there were some real stinkers in FFVII too, the basketball arcade game anyone? You have to admit it's hard to argue with the variety and quality of mini-games in FFVII when compared to the vast majority of rpgs.

Dragon Warrior IV had an entire Casino, much like the Gold Saucer. It was for the NES, mind you. It had just as many mini-games as FFVII, all of which I find much more entertaining than FFVII.


Well there is an ending, and considering that you start with nothing the ending leaves you with a lot more than that. After watching the ending, sitting through the credits, and seeing the final ending movie I felt the story was completed very well (which is why I'm not a big fan of the FFVII:AC concept).

The ending doesn't leave you with anything. If it did then you would have a clue if anything you did in the game actually had a point. It's almost like "LOLZ GOT U EVRY1 DIED NE WAYZ LOLZZZ!" Granted it could be argued that something completely different happened, but that's my point. They made an ending that you can pretty much make into anything you want, because they didn't have a damn clue how to end it. They didn't TRY to make a good ending; all they did was cover their asses because they couldn't think of a good one.


I feel both endings worked well for their respective games, I just happen to prefer the FFVII ending. FFVII was a darker game, so it fits that the ending be darker as well.

I really can't see how FFVII can be considered a "darker" game.


I didn't say people let someone get to/stay at near death just to use the limit breaks, just that it was dangerous so using the limit breaks instead of brining the character's health up wasn't a very good idea...

I didn't say that people would stay at near death just to use it, either. But if a character was at near death and unable to heal then using a limit break certainly wouldn't be a bad option.


None of the limit breaks in FFVII could give you such an advantage as to make a hard fight easy just by using a limit break, until you get the final limit breaks for a few characters, but that doesn't happen until the end game and even then you need to do side-quests to get them, so for the vast majority of the game limit breaks won't make challenging fights easy.

In the very first battle of FFVII you probably won't win unless you have limit breaks. This means that the developers intended them to be a key part of the game. However, they did not take into account that later on, when you have the ability to cure whenever you want and it isn't a race to kill the boss before it kills you, that limit breaks just tend to flip the odds completely in your favor.


I was using those 4 characters to show that there have been characters before FFVII that can fill any role. And 4 characters fills the entire party in FFVI, except for the few times you need to split up your party those 4 are versatile enough to deal with anything. Cait Sith and Yuffie really aren't good with either magic or physical attacks, so that leaves 5 versatile characters, and even so I don't see how this contributes to FFVII being a bad game.

Without even arguing the weakness of Cait Sith and Yuffie, I fail to see having 4 people that are versatile in a 4 person party system is worse than having 5 people that are versatile in a 3 person party system. Not to mention the fact that, like I said, in FFVII you only split into 2 parties. This means that you can still have a full party of 3 great characters, and then another with 2 great characters and 1 that isn't great with magic but still capable of doing insane amounts of damage. This makes FFVII much easier to manage party wise, which is why I was using it as an example to why it is a bad game. It doesn't present any challenge what so ever when it comes to party formation, at any part in the game. Granted near the end of FFVI you have no problems party wise either, but it is a serious problem for most people the first time they play through.


The fact that you have a choice like that suggests that thinking needs to be done.

Key word in what I said being "less".


Ok so it did happen, but isn't that the coice of each individual retailer to have their clerks pressure customers?

It's just rather interesting that all 3 times I witnessed the game being bought clerks pressured the person to buy a guide, and that I recently came to find out that they were instructed to in one store. If it happened in one store it more than likely happened in more, and I find it hard to believe that it was 100% the store's idea.


2-3 days of playing this game from the begining and I'd still be in Midgar or just have left that city, the game changes a lot from the midgar section to when you can explore the world map.

You said that Aeris dies 17 hours into the game, and that is pretty far into the game. It is very easy to play a game for 17 hours in 2-3 days if you like it enough. If you don't like it then playing it to that point wouldn't really matter to you.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey


Actually, it seems to me that there is far more talk in FFVII than any other FF that I've played. The party ALWAYS seems to be stopping and just having a 10-15 minute conversation. This is part of what largely hindered the reply value for me, as well. Games that you have to sit though large dialogs just get really annoying when you already know the story. For example, I really like playing FFTA but every time I feel like starting a new game I just don't because the opening is so frekin long I would rather just play DW4 instead or something.

The dialogues on FFVII, are indeed incredibly long. So long that when you are in the Kalm inn, and Cloud is telling the others about his past, you are able to save your game in between it.

Originally posted by Tokiko
And that's exactly why threads like this onealways end up in some sort of war.
The stout FF7 fans simply say: "That's YOUR opinion, so shut up, I like the game but I am NOT telling YOU why!"

Isn't it possible to just talk - in a friendly way - about WHY you like the game, and maybe admit that yes, some parts are a bit dumb, and it's understandable that people who don't like this, or who prefer that, don't like FF7 too much.

If all you're going to yell is that "all you FF7 haters" should get out of this forum and leave the fans to their praising of the game.

Instead, tolerate that maybe there are people who actually want to talk about why they think FF7 isn't a very good game, and there is no other place to do this than the FF7 forum.
So if you are really unwilling to defend your opinion and explain WHY you think FF7 is good, and at the same time want to complain that people don't share your opinion and DARE share it, then do not post in here. :(

Well now, that's highly unfair of you to say, since there have been threads in which FFVII fans have defended themselves with full explanations of why they love FFVII more than any other. Perhaps people are unwilling to share their opinions because they are sick and tired of sharing it and repeating themselves to forgetful opposition? I know I've already explained it. Is it that critics are always met with personally good reasons, and try again and again in the hopes that fans will forget our reasons and fold into your opinions. Anyway, what so wrong about being an FFVII nut? I played it after I played all the other FF games (except X), yet I still came away liking VII vastly more than any other. That's not to say that the others are bad in any way. It's really a matter of taste and opinion, which everyone is entitled to, much like movies and music. Granted, some movies and music are steaming piles of crap, but there are people who get quality enjoyment from them, and there is no way to convince them otherwise. The more time I spend online, the more I realize the futility of these arguments online, and the less reason I have to be here at all. We argue over who is right and who is wrong about such silly things that have no right or wrong answer. It's just ridiculous. I'm not discouraging any criticism of the game. By all means, go ahead, it's fine with me. What bothers me is the superiority FFVII critics impose and try to make fans feel inferior. Perhaps confidence in some of the critics is so low that they have to tear down others just to feel on par with everyone else (almost like drug-use) while hiding behind a computer screen? Now THAT is pathetic.

Originally posted by Master Nabeshin


Well now, that's highly unfair of you to say, since there have been threads in which FFVII fans have defended themselves with full explanations of why they love FFVII more than any other. Perhaps people are unwilling to share their opinions because they are sick and tired of sharing it and repeating themselves to forgetful opposition? I know I've already explained it. Is it that critics are always met with personally good reasons, and try again and again in the hopes that fans will forget our reasons and fold into your opinions. Anyway, what so wrong about being an FFVII nut? I played it after I played all the other FF games (except X), yet I still came away liking VII vastly more than any other. That's not to say that the others are bad in any way. It's really a matter of taste and opinion, which everyone is entitled to, much like movies and music. Granted, some movies and music are steaming piles of crap, but there are people who get quality enjoyment from them, and there is no way to convince them otherwise. The more time I spend online, the more I realize the futility of these arguments online, and the less reason I have to be here at all. We argue over who is right and who is wrong about such silly things that have no right or wrong answer. It's just ridiculous. I'm not discouraging any criticism of the game. By all means, go ahead, it's fine with me. What bothers me is the superiority FFVII critics impose and try to make fans feel inferior. Perhaps confidence in some of the critics is so low that they have to tear down others just to feel on par with everyone else (almost like drug-use) while hiding behind a computer screen? Now THAT is pathetic.


I would have to agree (and expand) on what Tokiko says.

The way it comes across, the FFVII fans who shout 'All you FFVII haters etc.' are hihgly immature and, it makes me think - 'Are people allowed to view their opinion'. Final Fantasy VII, is a good game, i have stated its flaws fomr my point of view, but it does not mean that i am a 'FFVII hater' which is what was inplied by whoever said it to some critisism of the game.
But - you have made a valid point to.

Originally posted by Master Nabeshin
there have been threads in which FFVII fans have defended themselves with full explanations of why they love FFVII more than any other.
Where are these threads? Not only that, but you say these FFVII fans have given <B>full explanations</B>. Now this I want to see!


<B>Perhaps people are unwilling to share their opinions because they are sick and tired of sharing it and repeating themselves to forgetful opposition?</B>
Excuse me, but we haven't forgotten anything FFVII fans have used to defend the game. Since, like, you guys rarely do it.


<B>I'm not discouraging any criticism of the game. By all means, go ahead, it's fine with me.</B>
If it's fine with you, why are you complaining as to why you come here still?


<B>Perhaps confidence in some of the critics is so low that they have to tear down others just to feel on par with everyone else (almost like drug-use) while hiding behind a computer screen? Now THAT is pathetic.</B>
I would rather be low in confidence, than act like a FFVII nut.

Anyday.

And also, what do you think you are doing? You are hiding behind a computer screen as well, trying to tear us down with these lame arguments. And we are the ones being pathetic?

Master_Nabeshin, yeah well, just like the others said now... if you are unwilling to participate in this discusion, which I understand, unwilling to explain your motivations because you've explained them so often before, then do not participate in this thread.
However, others want to discuss this topic, and maybe others have not yet been to countless threads like this one, so allow them to have their discussion without interrupting them by saying they shouldn't even be discussing this.
Okay, and one thing I really have to say... I rarely find a FFVII fan who really says why he likes the game. Not beyond claiming it just is the best cuz it has the best story, the best villain, and Cloud is "bad-ass".

And you still haven't corrected any of the mistakes in your signature. :(

Agruing opinions is like agruing different religions. Nobody is wrong but nobody is going to convince the other that they are right.

I think that sums it up. Its like this. What type of explaniation are you looking for Smokey? Am I saying all FFVII haters are Dumbasses? Like alittle earlier someone called Fantatics. I stay with this post for one reason. What is this explanation that you want? Finiding out that Clouds memories went his at all. Or not entirely. I enjoyed the twist like when Cloud found out that he was a Solider at all like he remembered. This was a great twist to me. I never saw these things coming. I enjoyed leveling up materia. Or playing the Minigames. Not to much. But enough not to get bored with them. I like Battle Square. At times it was just a game of Luck. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed watching the corruption of Shinra. And its down fall. Yes I would have liked to see the turks side alittle more. But hey what do you know Before Crisis came out. Breeding Chocobos was fun to me. And its benfits were great if you did it right.

Most of the story was about Cloud. Actually about 90% was. I enjoyed the whole chip on his shoulder attitude he had. Made me interested wanting to know more. And when I found out it was mostly at the end. After so much in the story had happened. Then it was time to finally finish it.

I dont understand what you all are looking for and I know that I am going to be quoted and it is going to be misused. It wont seem like I am giving enough. I have satisifed you. But I wait to hear what this great explanation will be and see what finally satisfisy all of you. So far I haved heard some great explanations passed by. But we will see, wont we.

And as for that beer. I totally agree. As a matter of fact. I drink one now for me. You. Them. Him. Her. And everyone else on this thread that just needs to be friends. Cant we all just get along.

Whatever the person before me just posted in bold before me at the top, is right.

But...

The thing is, Smokey says that the FFVII fan is either:

Played FFVII and no earlier versions
or
Played FFVII and many other versions and still liked FFVII best.

I think it would be un called for to say that FFVII is GOOD nor BAD, unless you have played a fair few FF games.

People who use phrases such as 'FFVII Haters', sounds so immature it is unbeleivable.

I like alot of things about FFVII, the materia was easy to use yet it was annyoing

The summons came out quick enough however they did not have a big enough emphasis on the game

The mini-games were good but some of them were downright frustrating etc etc.

This is what you'll get in EVERY thread like this. there is nothing no-one can do. Instead of arguing with an opinion, be mature and respect it.

look ff7might not be the god of rpgs but it is the best out of the ones they have out now
ff8-do i hear foghorn boring
ff9-its ok
ff10- that was soooo boring and the spere grid idea was crap
ff10-2-it didnt have a decent storyline
the reason ff7 was not great in some areas was that it fell behind schedule so they trashed most of there ideas because they wanted to bring it out on time for the fans.

Yes. My friend I have played alot of Final Fantasy's after VII. In Fact all of them so far. From One to X-2. And

The Job system and all others (including the grid system of X Which I found the closes to liking as much since the materia system. It still keep most of the begininng of the game restricted) restricted to much of the game play and kept me from using alot of the characters.

The mini-games were never as useful and interesting.

The storys never had that same Dark feeling to it.

No villian was every as sadistic and evil as Sepithroth had become.

So saying FFVII haters is immature, then what about the word Fantatic.

Summons were both easy to use and interesting to watch.

But like I have said. These are my opinions you may feel the exact opposite. Ok. That is great. Thank you for your opinion. That is what should be said. THE END. But that is not what is happening. That is why I am waiting to see this opinion that well stop this. Till then I guess I keep posting cause my words keep misusing my phrases and tell me I aint listening. I guess I just want to have my post understood. And listened to not rearranged.

Opinions Respected.

:D Thank you.

Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
<B>What type of explaniation are you looking for Smokey?</B>
I am looking for you to provide me with a good explanation as to what makes this game so great. Also, I find it funny that you are asking me, because I'm being nice about the subject.


<B>Am I saying all FFVII haters are Dumbasses?</B>
You may be thinking that, but it's fine with me. Because it's so easy to tell that the FFVII non-fans appear to have a much higher I.Q. than the FFVII fans.


<B>Breeding Chocobos was fun to me. And its benfits were great if you did it right.</B>
It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don't even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it's pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.


<B>Most of the story was about Cloud. Actually about 90% was.</B>
Well, it's good that it was. That's the point of the main character; the story is <I>supposed</I> to be about him/her.


<B>I enjoyed the whole chip on his shoulder attitude he had.</B>
There are a lot of main characters with chips on their shoulders. And, some of them are for better causes than Cloud's. Ex: Cecil.


<B>I dont understand what you all are looking for and I know that I am going to be quoted and it is going to be misused. It wont seem like I am giving enough. I have satisifed you. But I wait to hear what this great explanation will be and see what finally satisfisy all of you. So far I haved heard some great explanations passed by. But we will see, wont we.</B>
We are looking for a FFVII fan to finally prove us wrong about this game. Whether than just give a really bad and small explanation.

And if we quote you, how in the world will it be misused? It's the same exact words that you said yourself, genius.

And yes, you haven't given enough. You have spent most of your time bitching at us for bashing the game, instead of actually trying to defend what you believe.

We have given you a great explanation as to what makes this game bad. When you compare what we have said, and what the FFVII fans have said, it's not even comparable. From this thread, there is far more evidence that the game is bad, rather than it being good.


<I>Originally posted by the purifyer</I>
<B>look ff7might not be the god of rpgs but it is the best out of the ones they have out now</B>
Ok, so you are contradicting what you said here. And, you know that I am going to ask you to tell us why FFVII is the best one out right now. Because if you just say "It's the best", and don't give any reasons for it, you are just like the rest of the FFVII fans.


<B>the reason ff7 was not great in some areas was that it fell behind schedule so they trashed most of there ideas because they wanted to bring it out on time for the fans.</B>
You are right about one thing; FFVII was put on the shelves before it was supposed to be. Originally, I believe a side-quest to resurrect Aeris was to be included with the game. But, Square was rushed to release it, so they just left it out of the game entirely. But still, adding this would have made the game worse, IMO. Once you learn that Aeris must sacrifice herself to summon Holy, it would be a really ignorant idea if you could just go on disc 4 and bring her back to life.


<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>The mini-games were never as useful and interesting.</B>
You didn't enjoy Blitzball in FFX, or the card game in FFVIII? I'm sorry, but you received more valuable items from Blitzball than FFVII's mini-games. And, FFVIII's card game was really addicting.


<B>The storys never had that same Dark feeling to it.</B>
Um, excuse me. But were you blind when you played FFX? FFX has the darkest storyline of all the Final Fantasy games. So, to say that FFVII was the only game with a "Dark feeling" to it is pretty retarded.


<B>No villian was every as sadistic and evil as Sepithroth had become.</B>
Ok yeah, sure. I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That's pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.


<B>So saying FFVII haters is immature, then what about the word Fantatic.</B>
For one, I never said I hate the game. So, calling me a FFVII hater is wrong. I just don't like the game that much, so I'm a FFVII non-fan. And, I use the word FFVII fanatic, because most of the fans obsess way too much about everything related to the game.


<B>Summons were both easy to use and interesting to watch.</B>
All summons are easy to use. You just push a few buttons, and you have your summon. And, most of them are interesting to watch as well.


<B>THE END. But that is not what is happening.</B>
You know why it won't end? Because, ever since this thread opened, there has yet to be a cogent argument that proves FFVII is a good game. Oh wait, Durendal gave a really good explanation, and had good points. But, the ironic thing, is that he doesn't go around shouting "CLOUD RULZ", "SEPIROF IS THE COLLEST VILLAN EVAR!". I respect him greatly for sticking up for the game. The fact of the matter is, none of you so-called FFVII fanatics that place the game on an untouchable throne have yet to prove anything.


<B>Till then I guess I keep posting cause my words keep misusing my phrases and tell me I aint listening.</B>
Are you 12 or 13 years old?

Ahhh! It feels good, to know that not everyone is a FFVII nut!

Actually, now i lok at this most - there are not many that are. :P

hey look guys i love ff7 and im entitled to think that arnt i?
and your entitled to think its a piece of crap
yet it is very immature to go on a bout it for 4 pages!!
yes you have all made your point so isnt that enough
oh and purple monkey dishwasher!! :coolegg:

Originally posted by the purifyer
hey look guys i love ff7 and im entitled to think that arnt i?
and your entitled to think its a piece of crap
yet it is very immature to go on a bout it for 4 pages!!
yes you have all made your point so isnt that enough
oh and purple monkey dishwasher!! :coolegg:

I was unaware that discussing a game was immature. I guess only 7-year-olds have debates.

Originally posted by Durendal
Regarding Odin's post:

Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean: The Second Story are both amazing games (I found Legend of Legia to be very average), but just because better games are out there does not make FFVII a bad one.

All things are relative, Durendal. Especially when it comes to entertainment.

If there's something better than FF7 out there, then that automatically means FF7 isn't as good. And in comparison to Star Ocean: TSS. FF7 just plain sucks.

There, I said it.

FF7 is one of the worst fucking games I've ever played.

Mainly because it had the potential for greatness, but it fell short on so many different levels (as have been amply revealed/discussed thus far) that, if not for Tactics--and the hope of another game like it from SE in FFXII (FF 12, so as not to mistake it for X-2, you FF7 trolls), I'd completely abandon the FF franchise for my gaming purchases..

dont twist my words rabid monkey
i said it is immature to go on a bout it for this long give guys people think what they want to think. We can play the game if we want just because you say its crap dosent mean we cant play it and enjoy it. U have made your point that it has many flaws and that you think it is crap so isnt that enough.

Originally posted by the purifyer
We can play the game if we want just because you say its crap dosent mean we cant play it and enjoy it. U have made your point that it has many flaws and that you think it is crap so isnt that enough.
I have yet to see somewhere in this thread that we have stated "You are not allowed to play and enjoy FFVII". And, we aren't the ones acting immature. It is great when you can get a really good debate over a topic going. That is what we want, and we are acting rational about it. People like you are crying and whining because we are bashing a game that you like. Get over it.

So when is this pointless talk gonna stop?!

Originally posted by Brein
So when is this pointless talk gonna stop?!

When you leave the forums.

Final Fantasy 7 was original, as was
FF 2(4). Both were original for their generation of RPG's. I don't think FF7 was the best game ever made, but a good game none the less. I don't know why you would be here unless you actually felt FF7 was a t least a good game.
You are going to have at least one person who feels like a particular game is their favorite, or a particular song is the best they have ever heard. It's all opinionated, all speculation, none of us here had anything to do with the making of the game so in reality we dont know the true meaning behind it or any other FF. It's all in tastes.

Originally posted by SirBlood
Final Fantasy 7 was original, as was
FF 2(4). Both were original for their generation of RPG's. I don't think FF7 was the best game ever made, but a good game none the less. I don't know why you would be here unless you actually felt FF7 was a t least a good game.
You are going to have at least one person who feels like a particular game is their favorite, or a particular song is the best they have ever heard. It's all opinionated, all speculation, none of us here had anything to do with the making of the game so in reality we dont know the true meaning behind it or any other FF. It's all in tastes.

You didn't read any of the other posts in this thread, did you?

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey


You didn't read any of the other posts in this thread, did you?

Yes actually I did. I've followed the topic starting in the Advent thread, where many posters have veered here.

Originally posted by SirBlood


Yes actually I did. I've followed the topic starting in the Advent thread, where many posters have veered here.

I don't have a damn clue what the hell you are talking about/trying to say.

Oh wow...

You asked did I read any of the other posts in this thread. And I replied with a yes. There, is that better?

I made it alot simpler that time, just for you.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey


When you leave the forums.

I try to be nice but I must say: You are very sad.

Ok i'll discuss some things about this game then.

I do like ff7 but i think it should be redone

The story was quite from Aeris' death until you versed Sephiroth

U say the materia system is crap and should be more individual to a specified character. The materia system should be based on lvl ie summon when u get to a certain lvl in magic you unlock a new summon or magic in the same way.

The chocobo system was much more challenging then the ones in ff8 or ff9 so thats a good point.

The ending was good and left a bit to the imagination.

There was alot of mistakes and most things should be redone and alot that they left out due to lack of time should be put in ie who was the man in the pipe in the sector 7 slums he had a tatoo with thew nunber 2 on him making him a possible sephiroth clone, he is number 2 stating he could be *dramatic music* Zack

well ive have said wwhat i have wanted and i recon it should be redone not hated for eternity get off your lasy buts square and finish what you started!!

Originally posted by Brein


I try to be nice but I must say: You are very sad.

Grow up!

Brein: While I don't know exactly what Rabid Monkey was thinking when he wrote "When you leave the forums", I don't think he actually wants you to leave. But to further his point, you asked when this pointless talk was going to stop?

Well, it will stop if you don't visit this thread anymore. Yes, we are likely to keep at it, but at least you won't have to look at it and get all offended.

SirBlood: Just so you know, I had a basic idea of what you were implying. However, don't assume that people have read every single thread that you have posted in. I sure as heck wasn't going to go looking for posts in another thread just because you mentioned it. You should have left it at "yes I did" in your first post. Which posts did you actually read in this thread, by the way?

Brein: The reason I made that comment is because you have yet to make a comment beyond "WELL OPNION BLAH BLAH BLAH!" Therefore, in order for the pointless posts to stop occurring you have to either start saying something insightful or stop posting in this thread.

the purifyer: I don't think it should be remade. It isn't worthy of a remake. If anything they should stop producing it.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
SirBlood: Just so you know, I had a basic idea of what you were implying. However, don't assume that people have read every single thread that you have posted in. I sure as heck wasn't going to go looking for posts in another thread just because you mentioned it. You should have left it at "yes I did" in your first post. Which posts did you actually read in this thread, by the way?


Oh wow, I read ALL of them, I found this thread after a link was provided in the Advent Children thread. Do you understand now........

And I wasn't trying to make any point that was in some other thread, any information went with everything in this thread, So yes I expect you to have read the posts in this thread. I am failing to see what you are so confused about.

Originally posted by the purifyer
The story was quite from Aeris' death until you versed Sephiroth
Don't you just mean the story was quiet for the rest of the game after Aeris died?


<B>U say the materia system is crap and should be more individual to a specified character. The materia system should be based on lvl ie summon when u get to a certain lvl in magic you unlock a new summon or magic in the same way.</B>
Uh, what?


<B>The chocobo system was much more challenging then the ones in ff8 or ff9 so thats a good point.</B>
No, it's really not. Just because the Chocobo system was better than FFVIII and FFIX doesn't necessarily make it good. Let's just say that the Chocobo system was terrible in FFVIII and FFIX. Now, let's say it was better in FFVII. That wouldn't mean it is terrible, but it could still mean it is bad. You really can't say it's a good point as to what makes FFVII good, when it has a Chocobo system better than two other games.


<B>The ending was good and left a bit to the imagination.</B>
No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That's it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn't make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn't leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.


<B>There was alot of mistakes and most things should be redone and alot that they left out due to lack of time should be put in ie who was the man in the pipe in the sector 7 slums he had a tatoo with thew nunber 2 on him making him a possible sephiroth clone, he is number 2 stating he could be *dramatic music* Zack</B>
No, the main thing Square left out because they were lacking time, was the revival of Aeris during possibly Disc 4, or at the end of Disc 3. That's pretty much it. And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don't remember about the man in the pipe at all. It's only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don't know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn't.


<B>well ive have said wwhat i have wanted and i recon it should be redone not hated for eternity get off your lasy buts square and finish what you started!! </B>
Um, what in the world are you talking about? Square is already well in the process of trying to finish what they started. Advent Children is supposed to clear the air of any unsolved mysteries from the game, even though I don't recall any. This movie is nothing more than to keep FFVII alive, not put an end to the game.

ok forget what isaid about the materia system


No, it's really not. Just because the Chocobo system was better than FFVIII and FFIX doesn't necessarily make it good. Let's just say that the Chocobo system was terrible in FFVIII and FFIX. Now, let's say it was better in FFVII. That wouldn't mean it is terrible, but it could still mean it is bad. You really can't say it's a good point as to what makes FFVII good, when it has a Chocobo system better than two other games.

You said the game was not challenging i stated as a good point that this part was quite challenging i never said it was fun


No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That's it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn't make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn't leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.

I was talking about the rest of the gang of course you know what happens to Nanaki what about the rest you dont find that out until advent children 6 years after the game was first released.


Um, what in the world are you talking about? Square is already well in the process of trying to finish what they started. Advent Children is supposed to clear the air of any unsolved mysteries from the game, even though I don't recall any. This movie is nothing more than to keep FFVII alive, not put an end to the game.

Square did not completely finish the game they left out quite abit in cluding as you saaid a possible revival of Aeris on disk3 0r 4
They even left out a letter from Zack to his parents stating hes in soldier and hes gota girlfriend(Aeris)

dont believe me see for your self.
http://www.angelfire.com/super/ff7/unfinished.html

Originally posted by the purifyer
<B>You said the game was not challenging i stated as a good point that this part was quite challenging i never said it was fun</B>
Even so, the Chocobo system in FFVII is not challenging at all. It is just time-consuming if you want to breed a Gold Chocobo. What is so challenging about it?


<B>I was talking about the rest of the gang of course you know what happens to Nanaki what about the rest you dont find that out until advent children 6 years after the game was first released.</B>
Well, Advent Children takes place two years after the events of FFVII. And honestly, I don't really care what happened to Cloud, Cid, Tifa, and the rest of the gang. I just don't see enough evidence or enough reasoning as to make a sequel to the game.


<B>Square did not completely finish the game they left out quite abit in cluding as you saaid a possible revival of Aeris on disk3 0r 4</B>
Yes, but still, I don't think the game would have improved greatly if the Aeris revival part was added to the game.


<B>They even left out a letter from Zack to his parents stating hes in soldier and hes gota girlfriend(Aeris)</B>
Well, we pretty much figure out that it's Zack they are talking about when Aeris meets his parents. There isn't any need for a letter to begin with.

Yes, but still, I don't think the game would have improved greatly if the Aeris revival part was added to the game.

excatly the story got very straight forward after her death


Well, we pretty much figure out that it's Zack they are talking about when Aeris meets his parents. There isn't any need for a letter to begin with.

I know there is no need for the letter im just saying it is something they left out.

To Smokey and Rabid monkey...

Look, I'm sure you like feeling better then everyone else because they all love a game and you have all of these "reasons" why it's not as good as the games you like. Grow up, I'm serious, who cares if the story is straitfowards and simple, who cares if the battle system is flawed in your idea of it. Hell, the earlier final fantasies probably are better, but you know what? We don't care. Everyone here arguing against you loves this game and you think every one of them loved it because it was hyped up? Most of us haven't even seen the ads for it, I know I never did. You wan't people to agree with you that your games are better, try telling people to play them. There is absolutely no reason, to come in here and spit on something we all love. You know what age group does that? Toddlers. So you can use all the big words you want, but you're still acting like little, insecure toddlers. What do you get out of insulting something we like? Do you enjoy the argument? Or is it like I said earlier and you just get off feeling like you're better then all of us. WE like it, YOU don't have to. So you know what? You win. You can say that you're better then us. Now go do something else because if your going to act like a toddler, we don't need you here.

Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet
<B>Look, I'm sure you like feeling better then everyone else because they all love a game and you have all of these "reasons" why it's not as good as the games you like.</B>
If you were paying attention, we weren't really comparing FFVII to the games that we like. We were just stating the reasons why we don't think it's that good of a game. And, why put " around reasons? Is that your way of telling us that what we are saying is bad about the game is untrue? And that you don't have any real evidence to back up your claim that FFVII is such a good game? And that you put " around reasons, hoping that we wouldn't notice your lack of "reasons" for liking the game?


<B>Grow up, I'm serious,</B>
Who's the one that needs to grow up here? We aren't the ones taking massive offense when someone doesn't like the same games we do. We aren't crying when a person actually does try to prove us wrong. Maybe you need to take a look at who needs to grow up.


<B>who cares if the story is straitfowards and simple,</B>
Well obviously, I do. Because that would just further prove my point that the game is incredibly easy and simple to follow. Although, all these FFVII fans are screaming their heads off at us because they don't agree with us, and then they don't explain to us why it isn't a simple game.


<B>who cares if the battle system is flawed in your idea of it.</B>
Well, that is one of the arguments we used to bash FFVII, so I care.


<B>Everyone here arguing against you loves this game and you think every one of them loved it because it was hyped up?</B>
The only thing I can say to this is read through the entire thread. You will see that we never say that so many people love this game because of the hype it received. So quit making false accusations like that.


<B>Most of us haven't even seen the ads for it, I know I never did.</B>
Ok, so you say you never did. But, I want to see proof that most of you guys never saw any advertisements for the game.


<B>You wan't people to agree with you that your games are better, try telling people to play them.</B>
Ok, what the fuck are you talking about here? This thread is about what makes FFVII a bad game, not trying to get people to agree with us that our games are better. And besides, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "your games". The only game I'm talking about is FFVII. You are making yourself look like a fool.


<B>There is absolutely no reason, to come in here and spit on something we all love.</B>
You sound so retarded when you say this. What the heck do you think this forum is about? It's about the Final Fantasy FFVII game! We are allowed to discuss practially anything we want to about this game. No where does it say in the rules...

"Discuss anything you want about FFVII in this forum; Also, don't spit on the game, because all the people who love the game will get totally offensive and blow up."

There is a reason to do this. We are sharing what makes FFVII a bad game. You also sound like a hypocrite, just like I have said many times before in my previous posts about other FFVII fans. So basically, we aren't allowed to criticize the game? If so, then you shouldn't be allowed to praise the game.


<B>You know what age group does that? Toddlers.</B>
See statement above.


<B>So you can use all the big words you want, but you're still acting like little, insecure toddlers.</B>
Go look in the mirror, and you'll see a little, insecure toddler.


<B>What do you get out of insulting something we like?</B>
Oh, I'm so sorry! I forgot that there is absolutely nothing wrong with FFVII, because it is the perfect game!


<B>Do you enjoy the argument?</B>
I prefer debates, but you guys are turning it into arguments. All of you are overreacting to this whole situation. We shared what we believe makes the game bad, and you are totally allowed to share what you think makes the game good.


<B>Or is it like I said earlier and you just get off feeling like you're better then all of us.</B>
You have things so terribly misunderstood right now. :(


<B>WE like it, YOU don't have to.</B>
Thank you Captain Obvious!


<B>So you know what? You win.</B>
No, that is the problem. We haven't won anything yet. We aren't trying to win anything. You FFVII fans think this is some sort of competition, when it is nothing more than a debate thread. Nobody wins or loses, it's just here to express with why you either like the game, or you don't like it.


<B>You can say that you're better then us.</B>
Show me proof where we said that.


<B>Now go do something else because if your going to act like a toddler, we don't need you here.</B>
Again, you are acting like a fucking hypocrite. We aren't allowed to criticize the game, but all you guys are allowed to praise it all you want!

And if you say you don't want us here, then we can say the same thing about you. For some dumb reason, you seem to believe that the only thing you are allowed to do in this forum is praise the game.

I don't know about all the others, but Smokey, you are good with debating lol.

Also I like FF7 and it may be my favorite game, but, do you see me often in this forum? I do not want to praise FF7 like a god, I just want to say that its a good game in my opinion. The storyline had many plot hole...but I liked that! Its fun to imagine what will happens afterward...but anyways, its true that this game have too many plot hole to my taste lol...

One thing that pisses me off a lot is how most of the FFVII fans here act. They migrate and stick to this forum a lot more than the other ones, create pointless threads that have already been done hundreds of times before. It's like this...

All the FFVII fans are clustered around one another. They are having a merrily good time, talking about Cloud and Sephiroth, and anything else related to the game.

*Insert random FFVII non-fan*

All the FFVII fans now migrate to this one little person, because they want to trap him and make sure that nothing that criticizes their precious game comes out of his/her mouth.

Lol, yeah its true. Something that I hated in FF7 was the fact that you could amost always stick with 3 character and the others leveled alone lol. So you didn't need to lv them up, they do it alone! It make the game a bit easy.

No, I never said it a "perfect game." I never even said it was great. I'm saying we like it. It's fun to play. You are obviously allowed to criticize the game. You've been doing it for a while. I'm just questioning your motives for doing it. Tell me, why is it exactly that you are insulting this game and the people that like it in doing so. Go ahead, pick my statement apart and tell me why it's wrong. If you can come up with something constructive to answer my question you'll be up and winning again. What I'm saying here is that you could be right, ff7 might not be as good a game as we all think it is, but we like it so why criticize it? No one really gets anything out of it at all, it's pointless.

By the way, just a passing thought before I let you try and pick this post apart for more firepower, I'd just like to mention that it's somewhat amusing how when no one is standing up to you, you give complicated (and eloquently done some of them) answers, but as soon as someone does stand up to you, you get nervous and start cursing or using childish remarks.

"Go look in the mirror, and you'll see a little, insecure toddler."

What an hypocritical statment as your using a comeback used by just that age group, toddlers. Oh no! Could I possible have stuck a nerve?

Sorry for suck a pointless edid, but I'm sure you won't mind ;) . I gotta go for now though so our interesting little debate will continue tomorow? It's been fun.

Oh god....

Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet
<B>No, I never said it a "perfect game." I never even said it was great.</B>
I don't remember if you actually said that or not, and I don't feel like looking back through all these longs posts. But, if you don't believe it's a great game, why are you getting so upset over this thread? Besides, there are still a lot more FFVII fans who still claim it the greatest game ever. So, even <I>if</I> you weren't one of them, then don't even worry about it.


<B>You are obviously allowed to criticize the game. You've been doing it for a while.</B>
First, you say there is absolutely no reason for us to come in here and spit on something that you all love. Now, you are saying that we are allowed to criticize the game? And yes, there is no perfect game in the world, or will there ever be. So, there is going to be criticism about this game. Get over it.


<B>Tell me, why is it exactly that you are insulting this game and the people that like it in doing so.</B>
Because Rabid Monkey created this thread, and I felt like I should contribute to it after reading his first post. I usually don't participate in these threads concerning how good or bad FFVII is, but I couldn't help it this time around.

And if I insulted FFVII fans, then I believe that they deserve it. I just don't blatantly wake up one day and say to myself...

"I want to criticize all the FFVII fans today. I didn't yesterday, so it's time for me to do it."

The only insult I can think of that I said personally, is saying that most FFVII fans act like complete idiots. Then, I gave examples as to what these FFVII fans have to act like, before I say they are acting like a complete idiot.


<B>Go ahead, pick my statement apart and tell me why it's wrong.</B>
That's what I'm doing.


<B>If you can come up with something constructive to answer my question you'll be up and winning again.</B>
This is the simple truth: You were never winning. I was never winning. This isn't a competition.


<B>What I'm saying here is that you could be right, ff7 might not be as good a game as we all think it is, but we like it so why criticize it?</B>
You just said it yourself. You believe that we may be right with what we are saying. And that is why we are criticizing it, because we may be right. Just because you like the game, doesn't mean we aren't allowed to voice our opinions.


<B>No one really gets anything out of it at all, it's pointless.</B>
No, you guys don't get anything out of it. We, well I know that I, find a lot of amusement from threads like this. Because we know exactly what all the fans are going to say, and it's just sad that they can't come up with something original for once in their life.


<B>I'd just like to mention that it's somewhat amusing how when no one is standing up to you, you give complicated (and eloquently done some of them) answers, but as soon as someone does stand up to you, you get nervous and start cursing or using childish remarks.</B>
Are you really that stupid? People have been standing up to me and arguing with me for most of the thread. If I was nervous, I would just pull the ole' FFVII fan stunt, and say something like...

"THERE'S NO POINT IN ME TELLING YOU MY OPINION, SO I'M JUST NOT GOING TO VISIT THIS THREAD ANYMORE!"

I mean seriously, If I was getting nervous, I wouldn't respond to this as soon as I saw it.

As for the cursing, I only do that when I get pissed off, or extremely aggrivated. Also, complete idiocy leads me to cursing.


<B>What an hypocritical statment as your using a comeback used by just that age group, toddlers. Oh no! Could I possible have stuck a nerve?</B>
I used that statement, because that's all that really needs to be said about it.

EDIT: Sorry for such a pointless edit, but I notice how you avoided nearly all my questions in my previous post.

Hmmm Smokey it seems your feelings for the game have evolved far beyond any dislike of a 'video' game. Now it's just an all out hatred for the fanatic fan-base of the game. Your feelings seem to go, way beyond any mediocrity or faults you see in this game. Good luck getting over this obsession you have of proving yourself right to a fan-base that seems indefinitely fixated on their 'holy grail'. Even though you have proven yourself correct. Though 'they' will continue to say, "In your opinion." :(

Originally posted by SirBlood
<B>Hmmm Smokey it seems your feelings for the game have evolved far beyond any dislike of a 'video' game.</B>
What the heck are you talking about? I'm not even the person in this thread who hates the game the most. I don't like the game, it's as simple as that. Nothing more, and nothing less.


<B>Now it's just an all out hatred for the fanatic fan-base of the game.</B>
No, I've pretty much hated the way FFVII fans act for a very long time now. It has turned into me yelling and hating their acts, because there is nothing else for me to talk about. They won't back up what they say, so they just complain and whine all the time. And in turn, I say how I feel about them when they do that.


<B>Your feelings seem to go, way beyond any mediocrity or faults you see in this game.</B>
There are people who could say worse things about it than me.


<B>Good luck getting over this obsession you have of proving yourself right to a fan-base that seems indefinitely fixated on their 'holy grail'.</B>
I'm not obsessed with proving to the FFVII fans that I am right. If I was, I would say a lot more to try and persuade them. But, because this is my opinion and belief, they are allowed to think whatever they want about the game. For some reason, they take it as a personal attack against them, that I am not allowing them to like the game. But, if a FFVII fan is going to complain to me and tell me to stop bashing the game, then I am going to tell them to stop praising and liking the game.


<B>Even though you have proven yourself correct. Though 'they' will continue to say, "In your opinion." :( </B>
They continue to say "In your opinion", because they are so full of themselves when they say they love the game, that they honestly have no "real hard" evidence as to why they believe that. There may be evidence like this, but I have yet to see it. Also, they say "In your opinion", because they are too scared to respond back and defend what they believe.

I'm not saying you hate the game, I am saying that you have gone beyond posting about your dislike of the game, it's more of a detesting of 'these' fans.

And it is obvious by now that they don't have anything to back up their claims, or anything in defense, it will just be a never-ending chain. What is there to prove?

Originally posted by SirBlood
<B>I'm not saying you hate the game, I am saying that you have gone beyond posting about your dislike of the game, it's more of a detesting of 'these' fans.</B>
Well, I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I don't hate the game, but I just don't like it at all. And yes, I may have posted more than I should have about these fans. But, the fact of the matter, is that I am trying to get them to say something.


<B>And it is obvious by now that they don't have anything to back up their claims, or anything in defense, it will just be a never-ending chain. What is there to prove?</B>
There is stuff left for the FFVII fans to prove.

Smokey you have definately gone too far if you dont like the game good for you dont play it we have heard what you have said now go back and play in the sand pit cursing at this game.
Just because you hate something and you keep complaining about it dosent meen its going to go away you go play the games you want to play and we will play the game we wont to play. Havent you said enough?

Originally posted by Smokey

Well, I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I don't hate the game, but I just don't like it at all. And yes, I may have posted more than I should have about these fans. But, the fact of the matter, is that I am trying to get them to say something.


There is stuff left for the FFVII fans to prove.

Not at all, sorry if I cam off wrong with my first post. :D
Of course there is still stuff left to prove, but do they have it? Lol, the blind may never see.

I think most people are misunderstanding me here (some more consiously then others). What I'm trying to state put simply, is that we don't care if you don't like 7. You can give us all of the reasons in the world, you can even prove it, but the fact remains, we like it. A lot of people like it in fact, you said so yourself. I doubt that many people could fool themselves into having fun with a terrible game. Your saying that it's a bad game isn't going to cause millions of fans to wake up one day and suddenly think "You know? Final Fantasy 7 really is a bad game." It's just not going to happen. So two questions. What could you possibly have to gain, and how could that many people have that much fun with a bad game? Actually answer them this time too, don't just ignore them and pick apart the rest of my statement and ignore them. So tell me, why?

Originally posted by the purifyer
<B>Smokey you have definately gone too far if you dont like the game good for you dont play it we have heard what you have said now go back and play in the sand pit cursing at this game.</B>
Ha ha, you guys are awesome! You say I have only gone too far because you don't like people saying bad things about the game. Not because I am actually going over the line. I haven't gone too far, because it's not like I'm threatening to kill anyone who plays the game. And if you like the game, good for you. We have heard what you have said (Nothing), so go back and play it so you won't have to be afraid when you come to this thread.


<B>Just because you hate something and you keep complaining about it dosent meen its going to go away</B>
You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't hate the game, instead I really don't like it at all. There is a difference between the two. And what am I trying to make go away?


<B>you go play the games you want to play and we will play the game we wont to play. Havent you said enough?</B>
Again, the same point I have said countless times before. This is nothing more than the FFVII fans overreacting because someone doesn't love the game like they do. I never said you couldn't play the game, so don't even start with this whole "DON'T TELL US WHAT GAMES WE CAN AND CAN'T PLAY. WE ARE ALLOWED TO PLAY ANY GAME WE WANT", crap. Go play it if you want, I don't care.


<I>Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet</I>
<B>What I'm trying to state put simply, is that we don't care if you don't like 7.</B>
Oh really? Then why make the huge fuss that I am writing this stuff about the game? If you didn't care, then you wouldn't post in here.


<B>You can give us all of the reasons in the world, you can even prove it, but the fact remains, we like it.</B>
That's irony. You say we can prove that this game is not that good, but you'll still like it. I don't care if you like the game or not, just quit bitching about all of this then.


<B>I doubt that many people could fool themselves into having fun with a terrible game.</B>
And where is this proof that all these people had fun with the game? I had fun with the game the first time I played it. But then, I started looking at all the intangibles that made the game what it is today. And quite simply, I wasn't impressed at all. If more people actually sat down and looked at the game, I'm sure that it is possible some of them would change their mind, like I have.


<B>Your saying that it's a bad game isn't going to cause millions of fans to wake up one day and suddenly think "You know? Final Fantasy 7 really is a bad game." It's just not going to happen.</B>
You are so obtuse. I've never said that my goal is to get everyone to say FFVII is a bad game. These are my opinions, and you FFVII fans take it as a personal attack.


<B>What could you possibly have to gain,</B>
A while back in this thread, someone actually was defending the game. That is what I was looking for, when I posted in this thread. I wanted to have a debate with someone. Then, all of a sudden, some FFVII fan prances into this thread, and is like "OMG, I MUST TAKE PERSONAL OFFENSE TO THIS!", and all this argument crap has ensued. What do I have to gain? Well, I don't <I>have</I> to gain anything. I want to gain the satisfaction of having a friendly debate, back and forth, with a FFVII fan that is actually brave and smart enough to stand up for the game.


<B>and how could that many people have that much fun with a bad game?</B>
Excuse me, but let me see you prove to me that all these people <I>still</I> have fun with the game. I will admit that a lot of people had fun with the game when they <I>first</I> played it. But, I'm sure that there have been people who loved the game at one time, and now, they don't like it at all. That many people had fun with a bad game, because they were so excited when it first came out, to get their grubby little hands on it. They were so mesmorized by seeing all the advertising put into this game, that they were oblivious to the bad parts of the game. They just played right through, without acually stopping and looking at all the intangibles.


<B>Actually answer them this time too, don't just ignore them and pick apart the rest of my statement and ignore them. So tell me, why?</B>
I've been answering all the questions that you have asked me thus far. As for not answering, you need to take a look at yourself. You have ignored most of what I said/asked you. So maybe you should actually attempt to do the same thing I am, before making such a baseless statement like you just did.

And picking apart your statement? It's called quoting. It makes it a lot easier for readers to understand what I am trying to say. Would you rather me just leave all your posts in one, huge paragraph clump? And then answer all your points in there? Or, would you rather me "pick them apart", so that it is easier to understand?

Alright, you win. Honestly speaking, I have nothing more to say, just thought I'd try my hand at a debate. If you haven't noticed, I'm not paticularly good at it, but I thought I'd try my own way of doing it, and it was fun. I'll come back if I think of anything for either side. Cya.

Just an addition:

So, you and the other 'FFVII nuts' (as they call 'em), think its OK to make threads like;

FFVII - Why it ROCKS and
Why this game is so great

But at the slightest ounce of critisism you go all defensive of the game.

But, thats all i have to say (atm)

I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts, but no. I don't make those kind of threads, and I wasn't paticularly defensive either, I was trying to have a decent debate.

Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet
I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts,

rofl pwned. sorry mate ;)

Check <A HREF="http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/ff7.htm">this</A> out.


<I>Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet</I>
<B>I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts, but no. I don't make those kind of threads, and I wasn't paticularly defensive either, I was trying to have a decent debate.</B>
I find it amusing that you would use that statement, when <I>you</I> have a name taken directly from FFVII.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! Its so funny lol!!!!

(The video)

The amusement in replying to this thread kind of got lost a few days ago. However, I applaud everyone for still giving me a good laugh when reading this thread.

Why many people like the game is that most people never played final fantasies 1-6 so they think 7 is the best because it was soooo much better then the ones after it.
I am in the process of playing finalfantasy4 and so far its quite good but i still prefer 7. i also own 6 but that was just lame.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
The amusement in replying to this thread kind of got lost a few days ago. However, I applaud everyone for still giving me a good laugh when reading this thread.

What I am about to say may seem a bit strange to those who have read the first 3 pages of this thread. I completely agree with everything RM just said.

Originally posted by the purifyer
i also own 6 but that was just lame.

You realize you have no credibility after saying that, don't you?

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
<B>The amusement in replying to this thread kind of got lost a few days ago. However, I applaud everyone for still giving me a good laugh when reading this thread.</B>
Yes, I can see what you mean. But, I still found it rather humorous, because they were all trying to outsmart me.

Honestly people, this thread was only started for entertainment purposes.


<I>Originally posted by the purifyer</I>
<B>I am in the process of playing finalfantasy4 and so far its quite good but i still prefer 7. i also own 6 but that was just lame.</B>
FFIV is probably still my favorite one of the bunch, but just by a little bit over FFX. Maybe you will like IV more than VII once you actually finish the game.

FFVI, lame? :(

Now now people. FF7 had its good points..and its bad points. The graphics werent too great, some bits dragged out a loooong while, and some of the enemies got lame. But there was a great storyline, characters, plots and sub-quests, not to mentions boss's and monsters. It fully deserves the movie sequel more than other of the Final Fantasies to date. *well, thats my opinion anyway*

Werent the Turks the coolest? :D

Originally posted by X_Ifalna_X
<B>Now now people. FF7 had its good points..and its bad points. The graphics werent too great, some bits dragged out a loooong while, and some of the enemies got lame. But there was a great storyline, characters, plots and sub-quests, not to mentions boss's and monsters. It fully deserves the movie sequel more than other of the Final Fantasies to date. *well, thats my opinion anyway*

Werent the Turks the coolest? :D</B>
So...tempting...must...not...respond...

Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet
I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts, but no. I don't make those kind of threads, and I wasn't paticularly defensive either, I was trying to have a decent debate.

I find it amusing that you are a lame and immature idiot.

I know I'm jumping into this argument late, so forgive me for dredging up some older posts.


Originally posted by Rabid Monkey

I�ll admit, when I first played FFVII I was overwhelmed with the dramatic difference graphics wise. I would be foolish to argue against FFVII being the visually superior game to its predecessors.

FFVII's graphics haven't aged as well as the sprites of old, in my opinion, so it's easy to forget how stunning they were at the time.

I remember showing the opening movie to anyone who would watch it when I first got the game because I was so impressed.


Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I think that what really makes this stand out is that it followed Final Fantasy VI. There are so many little things about the pasts of your characters implied or hidden away in FFVI's storyline that are easy to miss if you don't think about it. It really makes for a good contrast.

Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called �innovative�. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your �limit� you are no longer able to use the �fight� command. This makes it a pain to save the limit.

One limit break innovation I really enjoyed was doing stuff to obtain each one for your characters. I actually went through all the trouble to level Aeris just that I could try out her final limit break.

Apart from that though, I agree that the limit breaks are very poorly executed. Almost every time I used them, they were wasted.

What I find strange is that IX has pretty much the same problem, limit break wise, and everyone complains about it all the time- no one complains about it in VII.


Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
As for the materia system, it�s not a bad system, but I don�t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game.

I feel the same way about the Materia system. I like the ability to customize your character, but I don't like it when nothing really stands out about your characters.

VI did a better job with this in that each character had their own unique and super useful ability. Personally, I think X perfected it, what with the Sphere Grid and how certain characters styles of attacks did more damage to certain types of creatures.


Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
The reason the FFVII fans dont talk is because what is the point?

That's a pretty silly attitude to have about it.

If you can come up with a valid argument against what someone is saying....say, you could think of a really good example of why the storyline of VII isn't as linear as other people here seem to think it is. You could post it, and make someone reevaluate their opinion.

I mean, really, that's the whole point to debating, isn't it?


Originally posted by AdamJC
I like the Final Fantasy story, I also like the characters, I don't need any more of a reason than that to say why I like the game do I?

You don't need it, no.

But the whole point of debating is to try and make someone else see your side of the argument, and you do need more then that to do that.


Originally posted by Shinra Turk
.....excuse me but are you stoned? Could you have made a better game?

If I had people to program it for me? Frankly, yes.

And also, I hate it when people say "could you do better?" when people insult something.

My abilities have nothing to do with how good or bad the finished product is.

And as a consumer, I have every right to say that something is bad.


Originally posted by Durendal
You'll noticed I said "allmost all", which leaves room for the few that are as fun, or even more fun (GASP!?) than FFVII, but there aren't many. There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII.

I agree, all those games were great.

Personally, I thought FFVII really shone in the mini-games department. It had some pretty crappy ones, but it also had more good mini-games then any other Final Fantasy.

Still, I've never enjoyed a mini-game as much as I enjoyed the card game in FFVIII.


Originally posted by Odin

Mainly because it had the potential for greatness, but it fell short on so many different levels

That's exactly why I don't like VII.

When it started off, I was into it. I enjoyed the first disc- I loved the Turks, I wanted to find out more about Sephiroth, I was pretty suprised when Aeris died.

Then the whole game basically goes to crap. The turks no longer play a big role, Sephiroth turns out to be a completely boring character, some really ghastly character background type stuff is introduced.

I remember not even wanting to play anymore for a while because I became so frusterated with the game. I was really hoping for an awesome ending that would shed some light on things I'd never noticed before, or an awesome speech from Sephiroth that actually turned him into an interesting villan.

But all I got was an "open for an interpretation" ending that didn't fit the game that I'd been playing.


Originally posted by SirBlood
Hmmm Smokey it seems your feelings for the game have evolved far beyond any dislike of a 'video' game.

It's easy for something like that to happen when you frequent Final Fantasy forums.

There are so many FFVII fans here that are so mind-numblingly stupid that you start to hate the game a little.

It's funny at first- someone talking about how Sephiroth, and how he's the god of all villans when they can't even spell his name properly. But when you see it so often, to the extent that we see it here, it really starts to get to you.

I know it's easy to say "then don't go to the FFVII forums", but that kind of stuff doesn't just go on here. It's everywhere, even in General Discussion.

I

Originally posted by Ndi

I know it's easy to say "then don't go to the FFVII forums", but that kind of stuff doesn't just go on here. It's everywhere, even in General Discussion.

I

Then don't go to ffshrine.org , go somewhere else, like www.thisThreadIsFackingUseless.com

Originally posted by SephirothBizzaro


I find it amusing that you are a lame and immature idiot.

Wow, what a mature and adult statement

Kudos to smokey for the weeble and bob link by the way, saw it a few months ago, what a great site, I was laughing for hours.

Originally posted by groovytang


Then don't go to ffshrine.org , go somewhere else, like www.thisThreadIsFackingUseless.com

Yeah, I've been here like 4 or 5 years. Not about to leave just because a few annoying posters have showed up since AC was announced..

This thread isn't at all useless. It's actually generating more discussion about FF7 then most of the other threads in this forum.

I wish people wouldn't flame people though. =/

Originally posted by Ndi
I wish people wouldn't flame people though. =/

BUT LEIK PPL SIAD FF7 IZ BARD!!! THAY SUXXXX!!!

(wow, it was really hard to misspell some of those words)

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey


BUT LEIK PPL SIAD FF7 IZ BARD!!! THAY SUXXXX!!!

(wow, it was really hard to misspell some of those words)

I didn't notice any spelling mistakes there...

I didn't notice any spelling mistakes there...

are you blind or being sarcastic?

Originally posted by the purifyer
are you blind or being sarcastic?
He was being sarcastic.

Originally posted by Ndi


Yeah, I've been here like 4 or 5 years. Not about to leave just because a few annoying posters have showed up since AC was announced..

This thread isn't at all useless. It's actually generating more discussion about FF7 then most of the other threads in this forum.

I wish people wouldn't flame people though. =/

How could you have been here for 4-5 years when you were registered January 2002? = )

Originally posted by groovytang


How could you have been here for 4-5 years when you were registered January 2002? = )

The forums were erased in 2001 and reopened in 2002, smartass. =)

Yes, I know my date says 2001, but look at the month.

Close this damn thread, now its beyond humerous.

ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn't a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I've played has been awesome).

Originally posted by TheKungFool
ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn't a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I've played has been awesome).
And to say that we aren't allowed to express our opinions is basically saying that we should just agree with everything else that people believe. Even though they have way different view-points than I do, I still have to agree with them.

Man, you are such an idiot for saying that.

Originally posted by TheKungFool
ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn't a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I've played has been awesome).

Hi. Welcome to the forums. :D You're an idiot. :D

Originally posted by TheKungFool
ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn't a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I've played has been awesome). <font size=10>HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHHA!</font>

I can't read ALL the posts...

But, I won't tell "this cool" or "this is good"..

FF7 is a great enhancement for FF series.

The passage from 2d to 3d. It was the first time, and Square did it very well.

From ff6 to ff7 we see many additions, much more than from 7 to 8, to 9, even to 10.

Yes, better visuals... but in FF10 we don't have a world map, there's less freedom, for example.

FF7 is a masterpiece because at that time did'nt exist anything like that.

I like very much Xenogears or Chrono Cross, or 16-bit RPG, but FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players.

Even now, Square is following the cinematic-spectacular way...
Maybe too much.

FF7 is well balanced in cinematic and gaming (the many sub-games are nice:) ) and the charcaters are not stereotyped.

Originally posted by aio
<B>I can't read ALL the posts...</B>
You're right. You can't read all the posts, because you will probably just break down into tears and kill yourself from what you read.


<B>FF7 is a great enhancement for FF series.

The passage from 2d to 3d. It was the first time, and Square did it very well.</B>
Um, no, not really. It was an advancement when it first came out on Playstation. It's not a great enhancement to the Final Fantasy series in terms of graphics, as you obviously stated above. If that is the case, then FFX should by-far be the best thing to ever hit the series. So, to say that FFVII is a great enhancement to the series is a joke. It was nice to see 3-D for a change, at the time it did come out.


<B>From ff6 to ff7 we see many additions, much more than from 7 to 8, to 9, even to 10.</B>
Now this I want to see. What are these "many additions" that you speak of? If you're meaning something like disc space, well that is an irrelevant argument.


<B>FF7 is a masterpiece because at that time did'nt exist anything like that.</B>
No, that makes no sense. You can't say that FFVII <I>is</I> a masterpiece because there was no game like it when it came out. It would make a little more sense if you said FFVII <I>was</I> a masterpiece. Again, what was so special about this game, that made it to where there was no other game in the world that was like it?


<B>FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players.</B>
WTF? J-RPG, Occident, what in the world are you talking about kid?

Also, what spectacularity was there that fascinated the players?


<B>FF7 is well balanced in cinematic and gaming (the many sub-games are nice:) ) and the charcaters are not stereotyped.</B>
Well-balanced in gaming? You're going to have to give more than the mini-games are nice if you want to make a good debate.

And the characters are not stereotyped? Are you even trying?

EDIT: Come on Cris, you totally messed up this page with that post of yours!

:)

Originally posted by aio
I can't read ALL the posts...

Why not? Too lazy?



From ff6 to ff7 we see many additions, much more than from 7 to 8, to 9, even to 10.

Duh. That's because the games could be larger at that point since they came on cds rather than cartridges. It would be inexcusable if there wasn't a huge leap in content.



Yes, better visuals... but in FF10 we don't have a world map, there's less freedom, for example.

So there isn't a world map... Big deal. The game is still well-designed. They don't have to be carbon copies of all the previous games, you know.



FF7 is a masterpiece because at that time did'nt exist anything like that.

A masterpiece must also be good enough to stand the test of time. FF7 does not. Anyway, the story had way too many holes to be considered a masterpiece.



I like very much Xenogears or Chrono Cross, or 16-bit RPG, but FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players.

As was stated before, it sold so well because Square advertised the hell out of it.



Even now, Square is following the cinematic-spectacular way...
Maybe too much.

Of course they are. Practically every game these days follows the same trend. And FF7 was not the first game to include cinematics, so the point is moot.



FF7 is well balanced in cinematic and gaming (the many sub-games are nice:) ) and the charcaters are not stereotyped.

And what characters are not stereotypes? Cloud was a generic brooding stoic. Barrett was a classic loudmouthed softie. Tifa and Vincent had no personality at all. Aeris was a traditional goody-goody.

None of those characters had any depth to their personalities. And I'm not even going into the supporting characters because it just gets more sad.

Ahhahahah!

You two are totally against FF7...

And I have nothing against the other chapters.

Even if Squall can be the brother of Zell or Seifer (hight, weight.., face...) while Barret is A LITTLE different from Cloud...
Not mention for Red XII... (in 10 Kimhari reprises the subject)

The other chapters are good, but the way was opened by FF7.

I have noticed that some things can't be false...

Come on... don't hate a game...

I'd never do it

That is the single most pathetic excuse for a defense I've seen. If you have nothing more of worth to offer for this discussion, please don't bother us with garbage like that.

If you're going to defend the game, at least make a serious effort of it. If you leave it at that, I'll consider it a forfeiture.

Originally posted by aio
<B>You two are totally against FF7...</B>
I can't help but say this: If you had read ALL the posts, then you would have realized that by now.


<B>The other chapters are good, but the way was opened by FF7.</B>
What in the world is "the way"? Seriously, all you have basically said is "FFVII paved the way for FF games to come, and it is the best in the series". You haven't said anything else other than that.


<B>I have noticed that some things can't be false...</B>
What?


<B>Came on... don't hate a game...</B>
Why not?


<B>I'd never do it</B>
That's a lie. You obviously just haven't come across a game yet that you despise.

Useless to make war if I have my ideas and you only want to negate what I say...

Are you fighting? I haven't considered it, sorry!

The only idea makes me laugh.

It can be funny, but as I said is quite useless, don't you agree?

I can only say that FF7 yes, is the first Japanese RPG that included cinematic sequences and prerendered background.
Not the first game, but for its genre is a milestone.

You disagree?
Too bad, it's the truth.


Originally posted by Smokey
That's a lie. You obviously just haven't come across a game yet that you despise. [/B]

Despising or criticizing is NOT hating...

But this is my opinion, I know it will be wrong as everything I said, right? ;)

Originally posted by aio
<B>Useless to make war if I have my ideas and you only want to negate what I say...</B>
I was never under the impression that everytime two people disagree about a subject, and share their opinions, that it is automatically turned into a war.


<B>Are you fighting? I haven't considered it, sorry!</B>
Uh...no.


<B>The only idea makes me laugh.</B>
The "only" idea? It's incredibly hard to believe that you are almost 24 years old, and can post this pathetically.


<B>It can be funny, but as I said is quite useless, don't you agree?</B>
This whole thread has been rather humorous, and I would like it to stay that way. Debates are never useless, IMO.


<B>I can only say that FF7 yes, is the first Japanese RPG that included cinematic sequences and prerendered background.
Not the first game, but for its genre is a milestone.</B>
Wait a minute. You said that FFVII <I>is</I> the first Japanese RPG to include those. But then, a few seconds later, you say it's <I>not</I> the first game.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?


<B>You disagree?</B>
I can't agree or disagree with anything you have said yet, because it's too hard to interpret what you are trying to say.


<B>Too bad, it's the truth.</B>
Uh-oh, you said "It's the truth".


<B>Despising or criticizing is NOT hating...</B>
Oh really? I beg to differ.

I don't know if it was the first game to have cut scenes... frankly don't care...


Even if Squall can be the brother of Zell or Seifer (hight, weight.., face...) while Barret is A LITTLE different from Cloud... Not mention for Red XII... (in 10 Kimhari reprises the subject)
I'd like to know what you mean by that. I get the feeling you judge the characters only based on their appearance. Even if that's the case, it doesn't make FF7 stand out. The characters in FF7 were diverse, true, more diverse than in FF8, true. But have you seen the cast of FF6? FF7 did NOT mean a breakthrough in this aspect. If anything, then FF6 was it. It had a moogle, a yeti-like freak, a half-esper and other more or less unique characters.


FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players. I don#t know what it was that made Square Enix not release any FF game before FF7 in Europe.
FF7 was the first one of the series to be released in Europe, the first one to be released worldwide, the first one that got the CHANCE to impress all those people on such a large scale.
Had FF6 been the first to get such treatment, IT would have been the one conquering the western world for RPG games. (If FF7 ever did such a thing. Personally, for me, Secret of Mana did that a long time ago, and many agree with me.)
This is irrelevant for the question whether FF7 is a good game.



Oh yeah, and "to despise" seems to have more or less the same meaning as "to hate". You might want to try "to dislike", which means you simply don't like something very much, as opposed to hating it.

Originally posted by Smokey


This whole thread has been rather humorous, and I would like it to stay that way. Debates are never useless, IMO.




The "only" idea? It's incredibly hard to believe that you are almost 24 years old, and can post this pathetically.

What a humorous sentence...! Maybe I am not english-american, this is my way to express. Did you get wrong?


Wait a minute. You said that FFVII <I>is</I> the first Japanese RPG to include those. But then, a few seconds later, you say it's <I>not</I> the first game.

Problems to understand? It is the first Japanese RPG with etc. etc., not the first game of every genre... Got it now?

Originally posted by aio
<B>What a humorous sentence...! Maybe I am not english-american, this is my way to express. Did you get wrong?</B>
Why are we talking about how you cannot form a readable sentence, instead of FFVII?


<B>Problems to understand? It is the first Japanese RPG with etc. etc., not the first game of every genre... Got it now?</B>
Not at all. It's the first Japanese RPG with what exactly?

Too lazy to read again my previous post?

Or you are running out of memory?

;)

I hate it when I post a reply and no one reacts to it. T_T

Originally posted by Tokiko
I hate it when I post a reply and no one reacts to it. T_T

You're right...

I think me too that the older FF have smart characters... Because they were less realistic than today.

Yes, it doesn't care if FF7 was the RPG that conquered the West, I think about Chrono Trigger much more than Secret of Mana (it's an action rpg, not turn based).

But from that point, FF became a synonymous of RPG...
No, I mean... J.rpg.

PS: not only the characters are various, the gameplay is various.. in my opinion... of course

I think he means it's the first RPG to use cinematics and prerendered backgrounds. Not the first 'game' in general but the first RPG.

Cut him a little slack, he is either mildy retarded or english is not one of his main languages..

Originally posted by SirBlood
I think he means it's the first RPG to use cinematics and prerendered backgrounds. Not the first 'game' in general but the first RPG.

Cut him a little slack, he is either mildy retarded or english is not one of his main languages..

Thanks for "mildy retarted",

If you check under my avatar youll'notice where I am from...
yes, the second one you said, english is not my main language,
there are pretty sharp people in this forum...

Originally posted by aio
If you check under my avatar youll'notice where I am from...

I am personally appaled that you would bash us Italians! :(

Also, someone debate with me.

I am personally appaled that you would bash us Italians!
???
I simply said that I'm not writing well in English 'cause I'm Italian..
There's something wrong about that?
What do u mean with "us italians"? Are u italian?
Se sei italiano anche tu, fammi vedere come scrivi nella mia lingua, allora!

About FF7, I want to make a question for you:
1. You hate hate FF7
2. Or you hate much more the people who loves FF7...?

I'm just curiuos...

Originally posted by Smokey
Also, someone debate with me.

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate and impersonate an FFVII fan. I'll even try to sound authentic.


FF7 is the shit it's the best evar.

cloud was cool and sephiroth is the best villan ever.

if you don't liek the game uv never played it or ur stupid.

u cant make sumthing better so stfu.

Originally posted by aio
I simply said that I'm not writing well in English 'cause I'm Italian..
There's something wrong about that?
What do u mean with "us italians"? Are u italian?
Yes, I'm Italian.

Also, I was joking around.


<B>1. You hate hate FF7
2. Or you hate much more the people who loves FF7...?</B>
Equal.

Originally posted by Prak


Okay, I'll play devil's advocate and impersonate an FFVII fan. I'll even try to sound authentic.


FF7 is the shit it's the best evar.

cloud was cool and sephiroth is the best villan ever.

if you don't liek the game uv never played it or ur stupid.

u cant make sumthing better so stfu.

I'm not that type of fan.
I did't make the game, I just like it, as the other chapters.
I like more FF7 for the atmosphere and the new thing that was at its time.

But I think is wrong to be the devil's advocate AGAINST FFVII too.

FF7 is a piece of crap?
Is it the black sheep of FF series?
I simply don't agree.

Smokey, do you hate the people who love FF7 too?
Is it necessary to be so aggressive for a game??:whatever:

Originally posted by aio
<B>Smokey, do you hate the people who love FF7 too?
Is it necessary to be so aggressive for a game??:whatever:</B>
You are misunderstanding what I said. You asked me which I hate more, the game or the fans. I said equal.

I hate how the vast majority of FFVII fans act. So in turn, you could say that I hate these types of people.

Originally posted by aio
I'm not that type of fan.

I didn't use any names. Decide for yourself if it applies to you.



But I think is wrong to be the devil's advocade AGAINST FFVII too.

And what's wrong with a devil's advocate stance?



FF7 is a piece of crap?
Is it the black sheep of FF series?
I simply don't agree.

I don't think it's total crap. I do think it's very mediocre, however, and certainly the weakest of the FFs I've played.

Originally posted by Smokey

I hate how the vast majority of FFVII fans act. So in turn, you could say that I hate these types of people.

What?
You are saying that you're not hating me, then!
What a nice person, I'll start to cry for the joy...:angel:
Ahahah!

However, I read some of the posts, some people don't like FF7, but to say it's a bad game is not fair...

It's a reaction for all those the die-hard fans that get mad if a person doesn't like FF7.

Sorry, I have no time to read the whole topic,
I'd want to know:
Smokey, Prak, you played until the end FF7 or you got bored before?

Originally posted by aio
<B>What?
You are saying that you'ar not hating me, then!
What a nice person, I'll start to cry for the joy...:angel:
Ahahah!</B>
No, you aren't acting like a total jackass yet...


<B>However, I read some of the posts, some people don't like FF7, but to say it's a bad game is not fair...</B>
I know it would take a long time, but you really should read all the posts. You would get a better understanding as to why I don't like the game, and it may answer some other questions you want to know.

Yes, some people don't like FFVII, and some people do. But, you're saying it's unfair for me to call it a bad game? I'm sorry, I didn't know that this game is so perfect that it hypnotizes every single person who plays or hears about it into not being able to say "THIS GAME SUCKS". I didn't know that I'm not allowed to express my opinion about the game.


<B>Smokey, you played until the end FF7 or you got bored before?</B>
I finished the game, and I thought it was really good when I first played it.

But that was years ago. So, my opinion on the game has changed drastically, as you could find out if you read more of the posts I have made.

Originally posted by aio
However, I read some of the posts, some people don't like FF7, but to say it's a bad game is not fair...

Sure it's fair, as long as you can back up your position.



It's a reaction for all those the die-hard fans that get mad if a person doesn't like FF7.

And that's the problem.



Sorry, I have no time to read the whole topic,
I'd want to know:
Smokey, Prak, you played until the end FF7 or you got bored before?

Yes, I finished it. And did everything there was to do in the game.

There was a great post Ndi did a while back, don't know if it was in this thread or not, but the gist was that there are so many FF7 fans who write almost exactly like Prak's DA post that people like RM, Smokey, MMM and all people with more than half a brain get sick of reading the same redundant shit over and over.
I like FF7, but its flawed...vastly. And most FF7 fans can't see that, neither can they take constructive criticism. And its very annoying.
And no-one is saying that your like them. Back your opinions up and people here will respect you for it. And don't keep putting your language skills down, believe me we all have the intellegence to look past that.
P.S - I did warn you about this!

Originally posted by Smokey

you're saying it's unfair for me to call it a bad game? I'm sorry, I didn't know that this game is so perfect that it hypnotizes every single person who plays or hears about it into not being able to say "THIS GAME SUCKS". I didn't know that I'm not allowed to express my opinion about the game.


I finished the game, and I thought it was really good when I first played it.

But that was years ago. So, my opinion on the game has changed drastically, as you could find out if you read more of the posts I have made.

Your opinion has changed, but for me a game that I liked in the past is still a great game.

SUper Mario Bros for NES was a great game, for example!!:D

And, no, I said is not fair because even people that hates FF7 like you enjoyed the game at least for a moment.
For me is interesting to know your opinion, that's all.

Just because you enjoy something doesn't make it good.

Case in point, I love the movie Kull the Conquerer. I know it's a wretched excuse for a movie, but I find it entertaining.

Originally posted by The Bear
And don't keep putting your language skills down, believe me we all have the intellegence to look past that.
P.S - I did warn you about this!

Yes, you warned me!!
:D
But I don't get mad for things like these...
So we can debate without problems.

Originally posted by Prak
Just because you enjoy something doesn't make it good.

Case in point, I love the movie Kull the Conquerer. I know it's a wretched excuse for a movie, but I find it entertaining.
Yeah I love Torque. Due to the bikes, the action scenes and the fit biker-chicks. So i'll say I like it but its totally un-realistic pap.
Ergo, FF7 was entertaining for me, but it could have been so much better.

Originally posted by The Bear

Ergo, FF7 was entertaining for me, but it could have been so much better.

For that time?
It was almost an experiment...
When I look at FF7, I can still feel the passion eand the enthusiasm of its creators, like:
"we are going to make something unseen before!"
There are a lot of nice ideas. New ideas.

Like the first Resident Evil, like many other games.

And what was new about it that had never been seen before? I can't think of anything.

I am going to totally pwn all you FFVII fans with my next post.

Originally posted by Prak
And what was new about it that had never been seen before? I can't think of anything.

Yeah, you can keep to post like that,
but I got that you liked FF7, but you are against it, on top of that its fans.

So seriouooooss....:D
;)

Erm... I never said I liked FFVII. That was Smokey. If you were referring to him, you shouldn't do it after quoting me.

Anyway, are you going to answer my question?

Fine, here you go:

<B>Storyline</B>

I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I'm older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.

Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It's just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.

Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That's it? That's the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.

This is the storyline of FFVII:

You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.

__________________________________________________

Notice how there aren't any bumps or nicks in the line?

Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.

Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:

Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.

Done.

Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.

Done.

Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.

Done.

This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn't really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.

Like I said before, it's like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

<B>An Unfinished Game</B>

The guy in the pipe at the beginning of the game could very well possibly be Zack. But, Square didn't add anything else to the game, that could have led you to finding out exactly who it was in there.

The guy who's living in it is a normal human who was
infected with Jenova cells, that's why he has a number 2 tattoo. After you have finished with dialouge in the Midgar Slums, you are told that an Elixer can be found in the pipe. But, when you go back there, you will not find an Elixer. Obviously, this is a mistake by Square, or quite possibly, an item they just took out of the game. But how could the item have gotten there in the first place?

The Nibelheim clones. Every guy in a black cloak gave us some item after we talked to him, right? And all the clones had a number tattoed on their body somewhere, just like the man in the pipe. But, if that's the case, why wouldn't this man give you an item as well?

If you want some more rock-solid evidence that FFVII isn't and never will be a finished game, go <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/super/ff7/unfinished.html">here</A>

<B>Aeris' Death</B>

Aeris' death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn't make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party's resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.

Another thing: I don't see why people get so riled up about this scene. Aeris was going to die sooner or later, so why not just get it over with? In fact, it would have been worse if she died later in the game. Her relationship would have improved with Cloud probably, and it would have been more uncessessary drama to see her die after this.

She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.

<B>The Importance of Aeris' Death</B>

When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't know if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Yes, her death was important for the storyline, but she was going to die regardless of whether or not Sephiroth did her in first.

When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them.

<B>Cloud in the Lifestream</B>

Can you say incredibly boring? I mean, this sequence of events did reveal some important facts about Cloud and other necessities, but did Square have to do it in this fashion? I don't see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not like he intentionally jumped into the Lifestream for no apparent reason or anything.

Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.

<B>The Materia System</B>

I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it's a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you. That's pretty stupid if you ask me. Also, since the Materia depletes your HP and Strength, you have to waste even more slots to bring back up these two categories, with HP Plus, and Str. Plus.

I admit, that the Materia System was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that's it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work the Materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.

You say the Materia System takes some thinking and thought? Pfft. The strategy guide describes to you all of the basic combinations that you will ever need, even though it's doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work it. It isn't complicated at all. You just put a Materia here and there, and you will come up with a combination that is good enough.

The Materia System is terrible. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduces your maximum HP by 20%. So, you are capable of losing up to 2,000 of your Max HP, just by being able to cast a summon? That is pretty lame.

Also, the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in battles leveling up your Materia to a certain strongness is something that made the game very boring for me. I don't want to spend hours earning AP, just so that my Choco/Mog summon can gain another star, and be that much closer to giving birth to a new Choco/Mog.

<B>The Advertising of FFVII</B>

FFVII is by-far the most advertised game in history. On the television ads, you would see the FMV's from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.

Also, the strategy guide was released with the game. It was the first Final Fantasy game to do this, so that is another reason people loved this game immediately. Owners of local game shops everywhere were telling people to buy the strategy guide along with it, just to help with the publicity FFVII wanted to receive. With the stategy guide, gamers didn't even have to think about what to do next, or where to go. Everything was given to them on a silver platter, so to speak.

<B>What Makes FFVII So Popular</B>

FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, because it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it. I mean seriously, this is one of the easiest games I have ever played in my life, and I've been playing for well over 16 years now.

And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.

I also admit that there are some things that you need to stray off-course to acquire. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn't required to finish the game. It wasn't mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent's best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game. It would be nice if there was something hard that was mandatory in the game.

<B>The Strategy Guide</B>

The strategy guide. Yes, like I said before, this was the first Final Fantasy game to come with a strategy guide. The book alone is a reason that led to the huge success of FFVII. Take away the strategy guide with the release of the game, and the game would be less popular today. I know that strategy guides are available for the previous Final Fantasy games, but they are really hard to find now. And, they were hard to find then, because I never saw one for FFIV or FFVI. I love the challenge of playing through a game without any help. But, obviously thousands of FFVII fans didn't see it my way.

The game is incredibly easy. It tells you straight out what is playing out, in accordance with where you need to head next. You don't have to do a little bit of hunting to find out what location you are supposed to be at. I didn't actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.

<B>Knights Of The Round</B>

All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don't even need it to beat the game. I don't understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR. This summon helps make the game popular, while the fact of the matter is, KOTR is irrelevant to finishing the game.

You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there's no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.

It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don't even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it's pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.

<B>Manipulation</B>

FFVII was a smash hit because the game manipulated it's fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.

<B>Play Final Fantasy 1-6 First</B>

Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn't say that everything about the game is revolutionary. FFVI has a better storyline than FFVII, and also more personality in their characters. FFIV had the ongoing theme of the love triangle between Cecil, Kain, and Rosa.

What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.

<B>The Graphics</B>

The graphics were some of the best anyone had ever seen when the game came out. Yes, it was nice to see this, but it subtracted from the storyline. I believe, basically, that the storylines of all the Final Fantasy games after VI have gone downhill. Square is putting more time and thought into graphical representation than storytelling, and that's a shame.

You really can't use the argument of FFVII's graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. By reading this, you would have to say that FFVIII was revolutionary in graphics, not FFVII. Of course the graphics were better than those of the SNES. But, what do you expect from a more powerful system in the Playstation?

<B>The Limit Break</B>

Quite frankly, I thought it was retarded. You aren't allowed to physically attack anymore until you have used your Limit Break? That is so stupid. What happens if you are right before a big boss, and you earn your Limit Break. You don't want to use it on weak enemies, and you certainly don't want to spend more time earning the Limit Break again if you do decide to use it.

<B>Shinra And The Turks</B>

This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.

<B>The Ending</B>

I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline. It just shows Red XIII overlooking a grassy Midgar? Wow, that's awesome!

No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That's it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn't make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn't leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.

<B>The Battle System</B>

Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn't see this at all in FFVII.

<B>Sephiroth</B>

Greatest villian of all time?

No. Sephiroth is maybe a descent villian, but I don't consider him to be better than someone like Kefka, by a longshot.

I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That's pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.

For instance, Sephiroth kills Aeris from behind, flys away when danger is near (Cloud), and always manipulates Cloud to do his dirty work. If you ask me, that sounds kind of cowardish.

Kefka wouldn't kill Aeris from behind. He would do it so that she could see him deliver the finishing blow. Then, knowing that her death is not good enough, he would stand over the body and laugh *grr*, and then slice her head off. And he wouldn't run away from the scene of the crime either.

Sephiroth is a boring and flat character. He never scared me with anything he did. His atmosphere never drove me to hate him, like villians are supposed to do. I don't see what is so special about Sephiroth? His Masamune?

If you think Sephiroth is the best Final Fantasy villian ever, you need to play, preferably, FFVI again. Sephiroth is really one-dimensional, in the sense that he basically had only one goal.

Also, he did some irrelevant actions during the game.

Why was he goofing and messing around at the Gold Saucer?

He did kill Aeris, but he was a coward when he did it.

Maybe the most important thing, is that he was basically sleeping throughout most of the game. Then, near the end, he wakes up, and grows a wing and halo?

Sephiroth is not that cool.

<B>Rufus</B>

I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus's father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn't add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can't be stopped.

<B>Zack</B>

And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don't remember about the man in the pipe at all. It's only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don't know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn't.

<B>Mini-Games</B>

I found the Mini-Games to be entertaining, for about a minute. The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to. Helping a Moogle have sex with another Moogle has got to be the most bizarre mini-game to date. Arm Wresting, Basketball, Kick-Boxing? Yes, there are a variety of mini-games in FFVII, but there is no big reward for them. With Blitzball in FFX, you received a lot better rewards for winning matches and scoring goals.

Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don't feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren't mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?

What do you get for getting a Moogle laid?

30 points.

Anything else you guys would like for me to explain?

Originally posted by Smokey
What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.

Who was the butt-pirate???

Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It's just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.

Hmm? After Kalm you must find the way by yourself, without indications.
Besides, yoy're right about FF7 when u say that is an unfinished game: many particulars are mysteries, and...
the player must figure them out, at last.

Also, there are "secret" characters, like Yuffie and Vincent.
You can beat the game without them.
I think that FF10 is the most linear chapter. without world mp and a road to follow. (it seems to be to run on a train)



The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That's it? That's the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.

There are secrets and enemies like the Weapons to beat after the first time.
I didn'like the ending of FF8;
And for the 7, I wanted something more.
The FF9 has the best ending, along with 10.


Like I said before, it's like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

FF10 is more like it.
Besides, wasn't FF7 an "unfinished game"?
There are many things to figure out before to understand the plot.


I absolutely hated the Materia System
Oh, that's your problem.
You criticize this system, I can criticize the absence of MP in FF8, , or something else. Oh, and for the difficulty
The easiest is the 9...
You don't want to lose your HP with Materias?
In every RPG system a guy who uses magic is not very strong in HP, you should know it.
Besides, I fell like you are saying "I don'like it, therefore is bad".
Too childish, huh?


On the television ads, you would see the FMV's from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.

And FF8? And FF9?
You can't know that in my country the tv spot were only about 8 9 and 10, because FF7 wasn't translated in italian.
Here, in Italy, FF8 is the most known chapter.
This point of the ads is equal for all the chapters.


The Strategy Guide

VERY important subject.
I think that the majority of players never used it.


You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there's no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.

That useless summon is useful to complete the game beating all the Weapons. You can't have the Master summon Materia without it.
Yes, it does take long. But you prefer to spend your time writing abot games instead to play them...
I appreciate that in the following chapters summons are shorter, in time.



You really can't use the argument of FFVII's graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. .

Come on, get real!
In FF7 Square was learning "how to do 3d graphics", and it learned it.
With FF8 Square has sharpened in a beautiful way its abilities.
With FF7 square moved its first steps in 3d graphics.
With FF8 Sqare was ready to run.
But the first steps are revolutionary, in my opinion.


Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don't feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren't mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?

In the fighting arena you can earn a limit, weapons etc...
But you prefer to play at the game of the Mog... the mini-games are not in the golden saucer: they are variety in the gameplay, you don't appreciate them? Well, you can always do the battles, nobody will force ya to like them...



Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn't say that everything about the game is revolutionary.

You hit a very good point. This time you are objective.
This is the truth, but about the storyline everyone has his-her own ideas. And for the "revolution", FF7 has only the point of the passage from 2d to 3d, and the consideration for the casual players.

You considered too much FF7, at last.
You know almost everything about it, and you think that if a fan read your argumentations, he starts to concern seriously.

But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.
Too much considerations about the plot, the characters...
If one likes Sephiroth, it's his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game...?

I read your ideas:
my impression of your word is: "FF7 is not a good game" like the title of the topic.
But the points you touched don't make me feel like it's a BAD game.
Be shorter, and more objective.

Originally posted by aio
But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.
Too much considerations about the plot, the characters...
If one likes Sephiroth, it's his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game...?

I read your ideas:
my impression of your word is: "FF7 is not a good game" like the title of the topic.
But the points you touched don't make me feel like it's a BAD game.
Be shorter, and more objective.

I'd just like to say that I don't really think that taste has much to do with how good or bad something is.

The only thing it really affects is how much you enjoy something.

For example, I like zombie movies. The fact that I like them doesn't mean that zombie are well written, beautifully shot, or that the director did a good job. It means that I enjoy watching goofy looking people try to eat brains.

Prak went into this a little bit earlier.

The characters in FFVII are not well written. There's not interesting dialouge, they don't develop much throughout the story, and they all have pretty stock personalities.

People obviously like these characters, but that doesn't mean that they are good characters.

So yeah. Taste has nothing to do with quality.

Originally posted by aio

Hmm? After Kalm you must find the way by yourself, without indications.
Besides, yoy're right about FF7 when u say that is an unfinished game: many particulars are mysteries, and...
the player must figure them out, at last.

You say that like it's a good thing. Leaving loose ends is bad writing. The story was left unfinished, but fans stupidly cling to this delusion that it was meant to be open to interpretation. A good story completes itself.



Also, there are "secret" characters, like Yuffie and Vincent.
You can beat the game without them.
I think that FF10 is the most linear chapter. without world mp and a road to follow. (it seems to be to run on a train)

The secret characters in FFVII are not necessary to finish the game, so Smokey's point holds. There is absolutely no need to stray from the beaten path. Also, calling on FFX's weaknesses is no defense. We're discussing FFVII on its own merits (or lack of them), not how it compares to FFX.



There are secrets and enemies like the Weapons to beat after the first time.
I didn'like the ending of FF8;
And for the 7, I wanted something more.
The FF9 has the best ending, along with 10.

It isn't necessary to beat the weapons to finish the game either. Smokey's point holds.



FF10 is more like it.
Besides, wasn't FF7 an "unfinished game"?
There are many things to figure out before to understand the plot.

Again, a good story completes itself. Universal rule of writing there.



Oh, that's your problem.
You criticize this system, I can criticize the absence of MP in FF8, , or something else. Oh, and for the difficulty
The easiest is the 9...
You don't want to lose your HP with Materias?
In every RPG system a guy who uses magic is not very strong in HP, you should know it.
Besides, I fell like you are saying "I don'like it, therefore is bad".
Too childish, huh?

The other games are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about FFVII on its own merits. I don't share Smokey's exact feelings on the materia system, although I still dislike it. I personally feel like the system was passable, but the game was lacking certain key options for managing materia, mainly sorting and removal options.



And FF8? And FF9?
You can't know that in my country the tv spot were only about 8 9 and 10, because FF7 wasn't translated in italian.
Here, in Italy, FF8 is the most known chapter.
This point of the ads is equal for all the chapters.

And that's supposed to mean what? If FFVII does not have the rabid following in Italy that it does here because it wasn't marketed, that reinforces Smokey's arguments.



VERY important subject.
I think that the majority of players never used it.

You think? That's not good enough for a debate.



That useless summon is useful to complete the game beating all the Weapons. You can't have the Master summon Materia without it.
Yes, it does take long. But you prefer to spend your time writing abot games instead to play them...
I appreciate that in the following chapters summons are shorter, in time.

Again, you tried to skip around Smokey's point. The KotR summon was not necessary to beat the game. And if you ask me, a person would have to be pretty sad to want to sit around and do boring repetitive tasks to level up materia just so they could have something far more powerful than they could ever possibly need. Why not finish the game and be done with it?



Come on, get real!
In FF7 Square was learning "how to do 3d graphics", and it learned it.
With FF8 Square has sharpened in a beautiful way its abilities.
With FF7 square moved its first steps in 3d graphics.
With FF8 Sqare was ready to run.
But the first steps are revolutionary, in my opinion.

That might almost hold water if there were not other early playstation games that had better 3d graphics than FFVII.



In the fighting arena you can earn a limit, weapons etc...
But you prefer to play at the game of the Mog... the mini-games are not in the golden saucer: they are variety in the gameplay, you don't appreciate them? Well, you can always do the battles, nobody will force ya to like them...

The point was that they should be something people will enjoy and get decent rewards from. There was no point at all to playing boring games that look like refugees from an Atari 2600 console, especially when all they give is a few measly points that you can get more of in the battle arena.



But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.
Too much considerations about the plot, the characters...
If one likes Sephiroth, it's his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game...?

FFVII fans always, without fail, fall back on that stupid old line about how it's "only your opinion." Smokey made very good points about the overall quality of the game, not just things that affect personal enjoyment. Your pathetic attempt at defense has been tried before, but it never works.

If you like FFVII, that's fine. No one's going to say you're wrong for liking it. The problem comes in when people call it a masterpiece when it clearly is not. It has glaring flaws that die-hard fans always try to sweep under the rug or pretend are not problems at all. The only people you fool are yourselves, and for that, we pity you. That is, when we're not laughing at you.

You say that like it's a good thing. Leaving loose ends is bad writing. The story was left unfinished, but fans stupidly cling to this delusion that it was meant to be open to interpretation. A good story completes itself.

Now that, I do not agree with. Plenty of novels and even a few movies tactically choose not to give explicit details about a situation, an event, or character.

From the classic "The Lady or the Tiger" you never find out whether the guy gets the girl or gets axed. In a more popular book, "The Giver" is a bit more ambiguous in the ending.

Movies to use this, and when used correctly it works. For example, Lost in Translation towards the end has Murray tell Johannson something that is inaudible, and they never tell you what it is. Its a prive moment, you aren't supposed to know. Or in House of Sand and Fog, the explicit details of why the former Colonel had to move to America is never revealed but constantly plagued.

It is not a universal principal that everything must be said, or it has to be explicity said. In the words of Adaptation, one should not follow formulas simply because someone says you must.

Originally posted by aio
<B>Hmm? After Kalm you must find the way by yourself, without indications.
Besides, yoy're right about FF7 when u say that is an unfinished game: many particulars are mysteries, and...
the player must figure them out, at last.</B>
Um no, not really. If you even looked at that site to read about what makes it an unfinished game, you should be able to realize that you can't figure them out. You will never be able to, since that is the point of an unfinished game; You can't do it.


<B>Also, there are "secret" characters, like Yuffie and Vincent.
You can beat the game without them.</B>
Yes, so why even bring them up? FFVII has maybe the worse secret characters of all the Final Fantasy games. I mean, the only thing that Yuffie actually does on her own is steal your Material. Vincent floats out of a coffin, and that's about it. Other than that, they are normal characters.


<B>There are secrets and enemies like the Weapons to beat after the first time.</B>
The Weapons don't become available after you finish the game for the first time, so I have no idea where you are pulling this statement from. Everything; The secrets, the Weapons, the Materia. It is all available to you through your first play-through.


<B>Besides, wasn't FF7 an "unfinished game"?</B>
You just said so yourself earlier that it's an unfinished game. Is your memory that bad?


<B>There are many things to figure out before to understand the plot.</B>
What things are there to figure out "before" to understand the plot? No really, tell me.


<B>Oh, that's your problem.
You criticize this system, I can criticize the absence of MP in FF8, , or something else.</B>
Well yeah, that's my problem. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I don't like how the Materia System works in FFVII, so I criticize it. Usually when you don't like something, you criticize something about it that you don't like. Would you rather me have just said...

"I hate the Materia System".

I'm not saying you're not allowed to criticize the absence of MP in FFVIII, go right ahead.


<B>You don't want to lose your HP with Materias?</B>
Well yeah, but that's not the exact reason why I don't like the Materia System. You are basically becoming a weaker physical player, and increasing your strength as a magical player. I'm sorry, but I don't want all seven of my characters to all be weak attackers and strong magic users.


<B>In every RPG system a guy who uses magic is not very strong in HP, you should know it.</B>
Oh really, every RPG? I wasn't under the impression that every character in every RPG that has ever cast magic is automatically going to be weak in the HP department.


<B>Besides, I fell like you are saying "I don'like it, therefore is bad".
Too childish, huh?</B>
I hope you are smarter than this. I don't like FFVII for all the reasons stated above in all my previous posts. All those points are what I think makes the game bad. It's pretty obvious that I don't like the game because it is a bad one. And childish? I also was never under the impression that all the games I don't like have to be good. Yes, there are some great games out there that I don't like, such as the Grand Theft Auto series.


<B>You can't know that in my country the tv spot were only about 8 9 and 10, because FF7 wasn't translated in italian.
Here, in Italy, FF8 is the most known chapter.
This point of the ads is equal for all the chapters.</B>
Uh, whether FFVIII was marketed more in Italy than FFVII is not the point. All this marketing of FFVII has ultimately led to the creation of Advent Children, and Before Crisis.


<B>Very important subject.
I think that the majority of players never used it.</B>
Ha ha, that's a great one. You have no idea of knowing whether or not players used the strategy guide. Quite frankly, a lot of people did buy one, so I could find it idiotic to just waste your money on the book and not even glance inside it once or twice.


<B>That useless summon is useful to complete the game beating all the Weapons. You can't have the Master summon Materia without it.</B>
No, KOTR is not useful to finish the game, because it is already really easy to defeat the final boss without it. Yes, I understand taht the summon is useful in defeating the Weapons. But, last time I checked, killing these monsters doesn't mean you have finished the game.


<B>Yes, it does take long. But you prefer to spend your time writing abot games instead to play them...</B>
Of course I do. I would rather write about games, than play FFVII again and try to get a Gold Chocobo. Nothing is more boring than doing that.


<B>In FF7 Square was learning "how to do 3d graphics", and it learned it.
With FF8 Square has sharpened in a beautiful way its abilities.
With FF7 square moved its first steps in 3d graphics.
With FF8 Sqare was ready to run.
But the first steps are revolutionary, in my opinion.</B>
No, in Playstation, Square was learning how to do 3-D graphics, not the FFVII game itself. I'm sure that if they had decided to work on making the graphics on par with FFVIII, then the graphics of FFVII would look that much more great.

And, it wasn't FFVII that Square ultimately decided to make the jump to 3-D graphics. This could have only been done with a more powerful system than the SNES, so they had to wait for the Playstation to come along.

I don't think the first steps are revolutionary. I believe it's the biggest step that you can see the bigger difference in something. So, I believe FFVIII graphics were revolutionary.


<B>In the fighting arena you can earn a limit, weapons etc...</B>
It would be nice if some of these things were actually a little necessary to defeat the final boss. Like I said, I didn't waste any of my time playing through the mini-games, because the rewards are just not good enough for me.


<B>But you prefer to play at the game of the Mog... the mini-games are not in the golden saucer: they are variety in the gameplay, you don't appreciate them?</B>
I don't prefer to play any of the mini-games, I just decided to give the Moogle one a try. And, maybe you should play through the game again, because the mini-games are located inside the Golden Saucer. I already admitted that there are a variety of mini-games to choose from, and I appreciate that. But, it's the only thing that I appreciate about them.


<B>You considered too much FF7, at last.
You know almost everything about it, and you think that if a fan read your argumentations, he starts to concern seriously.</B>
I would know a lot more if I played the game again. But I don't want to. It's been several years since I finished the game, and I prefer to keep the game inside the case for a long time.

And, when I read more and more about argumentations that are against FFVII, I will start to believe them, If I think they are true. So yes, there may be some people out there who read what I am saying about the game, are agreeing with what I'm saying, and changing their opinions about the game.


<B>But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.</B>
Uh, that's the whole point. All of this is what I believe is bad about the game, so it's my opinion. I also supplied proof with why I believe this, instead of just saying some baseless comment with no real hard evidence to back it up.


<B>If one likes Sephiroth, it's his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game...?</B>
And, if one dislikes Sephiroth, it's his taste as well. Your statement really doesn't hold anything to it.

No, I don't think a stupid character or two automatically makes the game bad. Did you even read all of my previous post, because I'm pretty sure I gave a lot more reasons that this game sucks than just Sephiroth is a bad character.


<B>My impression of your word is: "FF7 is not a good game" like the title of the topic.
But the points you touched don't make me feel like it's a BAD game.
Be shorter, and more objective.</B>
Well of course you don't think my points are valid enough, because you disagree with most of them. That's all there really is to say about it.

Well, this is quite the heated discussion. I admit that I thought FF7 was the greatest game in the world when it came out, but that is only because it was the first RPG I played. I have played all the other FF's in the series and on my opinion, 4, 5, and 6 surpass 7 in either the battle system or the story, or both in 6s' case. I still think 7 is a good game because of my personal experience with the game. Sure, it has a simplish story, but not every game has a complex story like Xenogears. But different things appeal to different people. Actually, I am more of a person to keep opinion to myself, I know you'll say I am a hypocrite for saying that after saying I liked the game, so to me, both of the extremes are annoying to me. Although, I understand why you would make a thread about why you dislike FF7; there are tons of threads with guys saying it is the "greatest game ever because of its cool story and awesome battle system."

A lot of your examples of why it sucks could be applied to almost any other RPG on the market, it is just that most people don't want to waste their time trying to explain why they dislike a game when their retaliation is that they're stupid. You bring up lots of good points, but I only read the first few pages, so maybe I will read the rest and post about why I like it. So until then...

Originally posted by aio


Thanks for "mildy retarted",

If you check under my avatar youll'notice where I am from...
yes, the second one you said, english is not my main language,
there are pretty sharp people in this forum...

That was not there when you first posted, since your location was unknown I was left with a few possibilities, never did I say you were retarded, I simply stated the possibility, also your welcome for some-what sticking up for you in a thread where you are way over your head.

The Weapons don't become available after you finish the game for the first time, so I have no idea where you are pulling this statement from. Everything; The secrets, the Weapons, the Materia. It is all available to you through your first play-through.

What are you saying?
The weapons can be beaten before the final battle, even in first play.
Everyone else confirm this statement?

Anyway...
Smokey, sometimes it seems you want to understand in your way.

And sometimes I had to be VERY precise...

Oh really, every RPG? I wasn't under the impression that every character in every RPG that has ever cast magic is automatically going to be weak in the HP department.
Ok, NOT every. Most of them. I was wrong, because I am the one only that must be VERY precise... and you?


mean, the only thing that Yuffie actually does on her own is steal your Material. Vincent floats out of a coffin, and that's about it. Other than that, they are normal characters

Yuffie lives in Wutai, there's a mini quest in the tower.
But Vincent has a side story, that is a secret that can be discovered in a cavern that you can reach with the submarine.
Do u know what was the bound between Vincent and Lucrecia?
Do u know that Vincent was in the Turks?
The only thing that he does is floating out of a coffin?
This time you are supposed to be more precise.

For Prak:

That might almost hold water if there were not other early playstation games that had better 3d graphics than FFVII.
Come on, we are talking about RPGs, or what else?
The first PSX RPG in 3d graphics. You will negate even this?


Explain me one thing:
I don't know why I am the only one who has to backup his opinions...
What about u?
I hope that Bear read this, maybe... he'll warn u!:D


So let's do a game:

I'm not afraid to say what I dislike of FF7:

-The random encounters
-Yuffie and Cait Sith (especially)
-If you reach the limit, you cannot attack!
-In the field, charachters are too blocky...
- The sound effects have POOR quality
-I want a longer ending....
-Cloud is alone on the screen.. in FF8 and in Chrono Cross (and in Xenogears too) is really cool to see the other party members!
- It would be better to have some particular abilities for every charcter, not only the limit skill
-The story needs more particulars
- Cloud is like "the boss". The story is His story. (Like Tidus said in FF10) The other characters have side stories, but I'd want they to be more involved in the main story

You are able to say what do u LIKE in FF7?(not liked, still like)
If you are able to do this, I tell u what I really like of FF7.
Not now, 'cause the list is long... ;)
I only think that the FF that followed FF7 tend to improve things that in FF7 were new (3d, cinematics, limit skills...)


Originally posted by SirBlood


That was not there when you first posted, since your location was unknown I was left with a few possibilities

I put the location BEFORE writing any message.
Anyway, I don't mind.

Originally posted by aio
<B>What are you saying?
The weapons can be beaten before the final battle, even in first play.
Everyone else confirm this statement?</B>
That is exactly what I said. Everything is available to you during your first run-through of the game.


<B>Smokey, sometimes it seems you want to understand in your way.</B>
Sometimes, I wish I could understand what you are trying to say in your posts.


<B>Ok, NOT every. Most of them. I was wrong, because I am the one only that must be VERY precise... and you?</B>
Well, give me a lot of RPG's then, instead of all of them.

And me what?


<B>Yuffie lives in Wutai, there's a mini quest in the tower.</B>
Oh boy, a rather useless side-quest to earn another summon Materia. What is your point?


<B>But Vincent has a side story, that is a secret that can be discovered in a cavern that you can reach with the submarine.
Do u know what was the bound between Vincent and Lucrecia?
Do u know that Vincent was in the Turks?
The only thing that he does is floatong out of a coffin?</B>
Yes, I know all about this. And yes, all Vincent does is float out of a coffin. The only thing getting him to join your party does, is to see these sequences you stated above. That's all he does; Float, and allow for those sequences.

Originally posted by aio

For Prak:

Come on, we are talking about RPGs, or what else?
The first PSX RPG in 3d graphics. You will negate even this?

Specifying RPG is a sneaky ways of adding value to something that doesn't really have any. An RPG is developed in the same way as any other game. FFVII was the first RPG like that just because it was one of the first games released for the playstation, which was the first system that was even capable of supporting that kind of graphics.



Explain me one thing:
I don't know why I am the only one who has to backup his opinions...
What about u?

Poor baby. Is us bad people victimizing you? GET REAL! We're backing up our opinions also, and doing a better job of it than you. After all, we're staying on topic about FFVII and not trying to divert attention away from it every few sentences.

Originally posted by Prak

Poor baby. Is us bad people victimizing you? GET REAL! We're backing up our opinions also, and doing a better job of it than you. After all, we're staying on topic about FFVII and not trying to divert attention away from it every few sentences.

Oh, I touched a bad point if you act like this.
It' s all the best u can say? Negate everything I said?
Is it to backup your opinions?
"We are doing a better job than you"?
You are really grown.
But nobody has told a line about what I dislike of FF7.

Besides, I never said "I'm better than you" or similar.
Thank you for saying if there is anything do u like about FF7.
I'm not trying to divert the attention from the topic, surely no more than you.

Originally posted by aio


Oh, I touched a bad point if you act like this.
It' s all the best u can say? Negate everything I said?
Is it to backup your opinions?
"We are doing a better job than you"?
You are really grown.
But nobody has told a line about what I dislike of FF7.

Besides, I never said "I'm better than you" or similar.
Thank you for saying if there is anything do u like about FF7.
I'm not trying to divert the attention from the topic, surely no more than you.

I can disect that line by line if you want, but anyone can see you're talking out your ass. You were entertaining for a while, but you've fallen into the same desperation that FFVII fans invariably succumb to when forced to debate against a knowledgable opponent.

Originally posted by Prak


I can disect that line by line if you want, but anyone can see you're talking out your ass. You were entertaining for a while, but you've fallen into the same desperation that FFVII fans invariably succumb to when forced to debate against a knowledgable opponent.

I can disect that line by line if you want, but anyone can see you're talking out your ass. You were entertaining for a while, but you've fallen into the same desperation that FFVII haters invariably succumb to when forced to debate against a knowledgable opponent.



:D As u can see, I haven't lost my sense of humor..
What about yours?
So damn seriuos.... huh, and superior.

Anyway, I'll quote myself, you haven't considered again this:




So let's do a game:
I'm not afraid to say what I dislike of FF7:

-The random encounters
-Yuffie and Cait Sith (especially)
-If you reach the limit, you cannot attack!
-In the field, charachters are too blocky...
- The sound effects have POOR quality
-I want a longer ending....
-Cloud is alone on the screen.. in FF8 and in Chrono Cross (and in Xenogears too) is really cool to see the other party members!
- It would be better to have some particular abilities for every charcter, not only the limit skill
-The story needs more particulars
- Cloud is like "the boss". The story is His story. (Like Tidus said in FF10) The other characters have side stories, but I'd want they to be more involved in the main story

You are able to say what do u LIKE in FF7?(not liked, still like)
If you are able to do this, I tell u what I really like of FF7.
Not now, 'cause the list is long...
I only think that the FF that followed FF7 tend to improve things that in FF7 were new (3d, cinematics, limit skills...)



This is so unworthy for the topic, Mr. Prak?
Will u descend from the heaven to reply to this?

Yes, I will descend just this once.

It is basically unworthy since it's off topic, but I'll indulge you. You want to know what I liked about it? All right.

I liked a lot of the designs, particularly the bosses.
I also liked the music.
Aside from that, there was nothing unique to the game that I thought was notable.

Oh, I was OT for all the time!!
Now I know it.:(
:)

The pre-rendered backgrounds were amazing, they were even animated.
In my opinion, the were diverse between them, and full of atmosphere. Thanhs to the music, I liked too very much.
The characters could move into CG scenes sometimes, and it was something unseen.
You disagree?

Originally posted by aio
<B>Oh, I was OT for all the time!!
Now I know it.:(
:)</B>
What?

The?

Fuck?


<B>The pre-rendered backgrounds were amazing, they were even animated.
In my opinion, the were diverse between them, and full of atmosphere. Thanhs to the music, I liked too very much.
The characters could move into CG scenes sometimes, and it was something unseen. </B>
Yeah, the graphics <B>were</B> amazing, just like you said. And of course CG scenes were unseen before, because it was the Playstation that allowed all of that to happen. You are giving too much credit to FFVII for coming up with these CG scenes. The game didn't give them to you, Playstation did.

Originally posted by aio

The pre-rendered backgrounds were amazing, they were even animated.

That is the wonders of new technology, not FFVII in particular.


The characters could move into CG scenes sometimes, and it was something unseen. [/B][/QUOTE]

Again, this was thanks to new technology. No system before the playstation could do that. FFVII was just an early game to do that. The technology was revolutionary, not the first game to make use of it.

But, it was the first time for a RPG.

The graphics designers did the work, not the Playstation.

Besides, there were still RPGs in 2d like Wild Arms, or Alundra, that is an action RPG.

Yes, the graphic was amazing and unseen only for its time.
However, I can still feel a beautiful atmosphere in the locations of FF7. I think that I like it for that.

There's one thing more:
You said that the secrets and many other things of FF7 are useless, or not necessary to complete the game.
But every game in FF series has thing like those.
And don't say that the rewards are better, in FF9 there are still a chocobo hunt, for example. Or the frog hunt...
So, what' s the big difference about that in FF7?

PS: Prak, it's the second time that you descend from the heaven...!
Watch out... Maybe you'll became a mere mortal!!

;)

PPS: Gandalf, I tkink like you about that:
an unfinished ending that give us the possibility of interpretation is like: "Ohh... is this the end?? What a pity... But, wait a moment.. I tkink it occurred this, or that..."
I like finished endigs, but I don't dislike an ending like that.
I don't want to leave out anyone from this debate, I am happy to see other users here.

The point was that the graphics designers were making use of better technology. They would have been morons if they couldn't make the game look better than the previous ones, considering how much more processing power they had to work with.

And so what if every FF game has some things that you don't have to do. You're twisting the issue. The real issue is that you never had to go out of the way in order to finish FFVII. FFIX made you actually search for certain key locations, rather than having precise directions thrown at you every time.

By the way, I never actually descend from heaven. I bring it down with me. Can't you hear the angels singing when you read my posts?

Originally posted by Smokey
Yes, so why even bring them up? FFVII has maybe the worse secret characters of all the Final Fantasy games. I mean, the only thing that Yuffie actually does on her own is steal your Material. Vincent floats out of a coffin, and that's about it. Other than that, they are normal characters [/B]
NORMAL!!
yuffie isnt that cool...

but vincent is actually SEPHIROTHs father
and lucrecia is sephys REAL mom
oh and vincent is a bad...*sees that mods are here*
vincent was experimented on by hojo or some1
accounting for the red eyes and metal hand
vincent was the coolest secret FF char evur
all the yeti FF6 did was grunt and smash and does any1 remember his poo throw limit break?
that one guy (cant remember his name) was tied with vincent due to his powers

I think the CG arguement is a good one for FF7, unless you say any break-through in graphics you see in a game isn't valid because it was all the hardware.

SirBlood, everyone knows that FFVII only used a fraction of the playstation's processing power. Its graphics didn't push the system's limits by any means, so it really wasn't a major achievement. As has been said before, it looked more impressive because the playstation allowed for more impressive looking games.

And so what if every FF game has some things that you don't have to do. You're twisting the issue. The real issue is that you never had to go out of the way in order to finish FFVII. FFIX made you actually search for certain key locations, rather than having precise directions thrown at you every time.

Eh...I am lost, its probably just me. Could you give a few examples of this maybe?

Originally posted by Prak
SirBlood, everyone knows that FFVII only used a fraction of the playstation's processing power. Its graphics didn't push the system's limits by any means, so it really wasn't a major achievement. As has been said before, it looked more impressive because the playstation allowed for more impressive looking games.

The games CG's used more than a fraction of the systems graphical engine. As you can see mainly the rest of the Final Fantasy series harnassed this CG graphical power in almost similar CG's. Besides just a different look, you never saw any better graphics on the PSX. I did not mean the gameplay graphics...

Originally posted by SirBlood


The games CG's used more than a fraction of the systems graphical engine. As you can see mainly the rest of the Final Fantasy series harnassed this CG graphical power in almost similar CG's. Besides just a different look, you never saw any better graphics on the PSX. I did not mean the gameplay graphics...


That's ridiculous. Of course we saw better graphics. Are you saying that a lower polygon count and lower framerate don't make them inferior?

And even at the time, it had been done better. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain was released on the same day that FFVII was released in Japan. In those technical aspects, Blood Omen had better CG scenes.

Prak, did you see my post? I was lost on your FF9 comment.

Come on guys, even if you love FF7 (and I do), you have to admit the graphics are not that spectacular. The people walk around like they were fat blocks half the time.

I personally thought of ff7 as a "little better than meh game". I like it for what it did for RPGs in general. Also because of it MASS fans Square continued the series so we got alot more great games out of it. (sans ff8)

Oh yeah. Sorry Gandalf. I completely forgot about yours.

After looking back on it a little more, I'm having a hard time remembering exactly what I had to search for. I'm going to load an old save file when I get back home and look it over to jog my memory. Maybe I'll get my act together before then. If so, I'll go ahead and clarify.

Finally, this debate is involving other persons!:)


And so what if every FF game has some things that you don't have to do. You're twisting the issue. The real issue is that you never had to go out of the way in order to finish FFVII. FFIX made you actually search for certain key locations, rather than having precise directions thrown at you every time.

I'm the one that is twisting the issue?
Besides every following chapter from FF7 has precise directions about your next destination/move.

Every FF has things that are not necessary to complete the game, or mini-games with a reward not so special...
But it's not a bad point.


Come on guys, even if you love FF7 (and I do), you have to admit the graphics are not that spectacular. The people walk around like they were fat blocks half the time.

Yeah, Gandalf. In a previous post I posted what I dislike of FF7..
I said, in the field characters are too blocky... and other things.

About graphics, PSX allowed to make 3d graphics.
And to insert movie scenes.
And animated prerendered backgrounds.

But Square with FF7 decided that this is the way to tell the story, and this is a matter of fact.

Squaresoft could make FF7 with 2d characters and a fully 3d world, at first. (like the beautiful Xenogears)
But its choice was pre-rendered animated backgrounds.
It was the way to craft a Japanese RPG on a modern system that was revolutionary.

FF8, 9 followed this way, improving visuals and sounds.

And don't keep replying me as I was a die-hard fan that thinks that FF7 is a perfect game, and the other FF suck. (I refer to Smokey and Prak...)

I just think that FF7 opened the way for the following chapters.
Square decided how to use new technologies to tell the story.
And I think is the one I like more (of FFsaga) for that and for personal taste, as many other players.

Originally posted by aio
<B>Every FF has things that are not necessary to complete the game, or mini-games with a reward not so special...
But it's not a bad point.</B>
That is one of the points that I am trying to make. Yes, all the other Final Fantasy games have their share of unneccessary side-quests and the like for finishing the game. But, we aren't talking about those games. If a thread was started about what makes FFVIII a bad game, I would use that same reasoning as one of my examples probably. But, I'm not, because I'm focusing on FFVII right now.


<B>About graphics, PSX allowed to make 3d graphics.
And to insert movie scenes.
And animated prerendered backgrounds.</B>
So why are you saying that the graphics are so revolutionary? I mean, they were at the time, but you are giving the game credit instead of the system.


<B>But Square with FF7 decided that this is the way to tell the story, and this is a matter of fact.</B>
No, it's not a fact. If you were Square, and were able to make a game with the Playstation, wouldn't you want the graphics to be really good?


<B>And don't keep replying me as I was a die-hard fan that thinks that FF7 is a perfect game, and the other FF suck. (I refer to Smokey and Prak...)</B>
I've never called you a die-hard fan of FFVII, nor have I said I think you have FFVII as a perfect game.


<B>I just think that FF7 opened the way for the following chapters.
Square decided how to use new technologies to tell the story.</B>
Sony opened the way for the following chapters. FFVII did not make the graphics itself, so quit acting like it did.

Sony opened the way for the following chapters. FFVII did not make the graphics itself, so quit acting like it did.

Oh, I thought that FF series was made by Square....
I didn't know that the graphics of FF7 were generated automatically by PSX hardware:
Thanks, Sony, you did a miracle console!!
3d games with any effort or work!!
:D :D

Maybe I have to repeat my point:


Square decided how to use new technologies to tell the story.

Square opened the way for the following chapters. Playstation did not make the graphics automatically, so quit acting like it did.

Same thing happened to me Prak.

What I thought you meant was Final Fantasy VII was so easy you never needed to g around looking for something else, where Final Fantasy IX was a bit harder and twisted your arm into doing the sidequests a bit more, would that be right intrepretation?

Actually, what I meant was that FFIX didn't give you precise directions to the next location you need to head for to progress the story. There were at least a couple of times where all you knew was what continent your destination was on. It made exploration more important. Whereas you always got exact directions in FFVII, so exploration was optional.

Originally posted by Prak



That's ridiculous. Of course we saw better graphics. Are you saying that a lower polygon count and lower framerate don't make them inferior?

And even at the time, it had been done better. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain was released on the same day that FFVII was released in Japan. In those technical aspects, Blood Omen had better CG scenes.

Heh, i bet Rabid Monkey is lovin' this.

Originally posted by Prak
Actually, what I meant was that FFIX didn't give you precise directions to the next location you need to head for to progress the story. There were at least a couple of times where all you knew was what continent your destination was on. It made exploration more important. Whereas you always got exact directions in FFVII, so exploration was optional.

I don't see a big difference in this between the two chapters.
I think that FFIX is still a linear game, and it was a pity that only the first continent was full of locations, and instead the others have almost one location for continent....

In FFVII you are not forced to enter in Cosmo Canyon to go on in Nibelheim, for example. And the exploration is important even in FF7: you only know that there is a key underwater.
Then you have to explorate the sea with the submarine.
Jus to make an example...
I don't think that FF7 IS NOT linear, but I think it is no more than its following chapters.

But I return to the main point:
In my opinion, this thread had to be entitled:
"Why FF7 ISN'T the best RPG ever" or
"Why FF7 ISN'T the greatest game ever" or even
"Why FF7 ISN'T a perfect game"

I know the title wanted to provoke,
but I still think that FF7 is a good game,
the creators of FF series crafted it with the heart, with the enthusiasm of the possibilities allowed by the new technology.
In my opinion, the following chapters are crafted more with the head, than with the heart.
That makes it a good and enjoyable game, but it still my point of view.

Although my name implies it, I have not yet beaten FF1 with all thieves; it's a current project of mine. But enough about that. One very common assumption that I disagree with is that Aeris's death is the main point of FF7. You say that from then on the party's motivation is set, and there's nothing to add to the plot. But what about when Cloud gives Sephiroth the black materia? What happened to this determined resolve to kill Sephiroth? I don't see what's so straightforward and simplistic about that. As for the materia system, I think it just comes down to whether you like it or not. I thought it was great, and many people also do, and then people think it was as bad an idea as FF1's item shops selling you only one freaking heal at a time so you have to press "A" repeatedly for about 15 minutes to prepare for a dungeon. And I think you should be careful about referring to FF1-6 in that you are including 2 and 3, which apart from being very infrequently played by anyone, are pretty darn terrible from what I've seen. I'm not saying you misused it, I'm just saying be careful. But what shocks me the most is that you didn't refer to the most obvious reason to hate FF7 utterly and with a passion: Yuffie. I mean, that little @$!@#$ doesn't just steal your materia, you have to embarass yourself in the game to get her to join your party! Seriously, though, one important thing to consider is that the FF series was changing at the time. Compare FF1, with it's final boss with only 2000 HP and lack of main characters to FFX-2, the game I consider to be a disgrace to RPGs, with the main character as a POP SINGER!! Gosh, that makes me so MAD! I really don't think it's fair to compare FF7 to any of the FFs before it. In the days of FF1, only super-nerds (i.e. myself) ever played Final Fantasy, FFIV opened up the RPG to the common video gamer, and FFVII opened the audience even further. The target audience widens as each new game is released, which, in my opinion, is becoming a change for the worse. I mean, the main character is wearing less and less clothing every game. And he's getting more and more irritating. (Tidus was a whiny little turd.)

You were objective,

but I think that someone would want to say you:

"Yuffie is a quite useless character, it takes too long to make her join in your party..."
;)

I really agree with you with the spoiling of FFsaga with FFX2, I got bored of it form the start...

But don't worry, I think that Matsuno and his guys (FFtactics, Vagrant Story) are shaping a brand new FF with the 12, wiyhout random encounters and a revolutionary battle system...
FF is not over yet!:D

Wow, wtf?!?!

MonkeyBone, you're sick. You say that you absolutely hate FF7 now that after you've played it! If it isn't a good game, then why do mostly all the FF fans say it's the best? You are truely sick!

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist
Wow, wtf?!?!

MonkeyBone, you're sick. You say that you absolutely hate FF7 now that after you've played it! If it isn't a good game, then why do mostly all the FF fans say it's the best? You are truely sick!


Wow. That was probably the stupidest thing to be posted on this thread for at least the last several pages. Lots of us played it and didn't like it. And how do you know that "mostly all the FF fans" think 7 was best? Did you ask them all?

You are truly sick.

The only reason I got Yuffie was because I am a greedy RPG player. I just HAD to get the master summon, so I needed the Leviathan materia, for which I needed Yuffie. Tragic, isn't it?

Originally posted by Prak



Wow. That was probably the stupidest thing to be posted on this thread for at least the last several pages. Lots of us played it and didn't like it. And how do you know that "mostly all the FF fans" think 7 was best? Did you ask them all?

You are truly sick.

Well I had typed something longer and I lost it. But if you really want to know, YES IT WAS THE MOST POPULAR. I find it highly amusing that one would deem it "unworthy" Sure, not all people have the same tastes, I know that! But looking at it now and criticizing it for not being up to par with this generation's games, is very low and stupid. It's obvious that it made the most money out of all the FF's, can you not see that? Poking fun of the battle system isn't a very good reasen either. So what? What was so bad about it? Was it so hard to use? I think that the materia system is one of the best battle systems that they have created, but that's just me. The real deal here is that Final Fantasy 7 is popular, made lots of money, and introduced many non-Rpg players to the genre. Now if this game doesn't deserve a praise then I don't know what does. :mad:

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist
<B>But looking at it now and criticizing it for not being up to par with this generation's games, is very low and stupid.</B>
Well, we have to compare the game with <I>something</I>. Do you want me to just say I'm not comparing it to other games when I critique FFVII? When people debate which Final Fantasy game is the best, they <I>have</I> to compare it.


<B>It's obvious that it made the most money out of all the FF's, can you not see that?</B>
I wonder where you came up with that brilliant conclusion.


<B>Poking fun of the battle system isn't a very good reasen either. So what? What was so bad about it? Was it so hard to use?</B>
Uh that's the whole point of criticizing; to show points that you think make a game weak. I have already stated what I think about the Materia System, and I believe that it is one of the reasons that makes FFVII a bad game.


<B>The real deal here is that Final Fantasy 7 is popular, made lots of money, and introduced many non-Rpg players to the genre. Now if this game doesn't deserve a praise then I don't know what does. :mad:</B>
I'm sorry, but FFVII has been receiving a ton of praise ever since it was released. So if you are saying that it doesn't garner enough praise, or any at all, then you are being obtuse. It may have introduced many non-RPG players to the genre, but that's because it was marketed so much that you heard about it everywhere you went. That's a reason why it's so popular, and why it still to this day continues to bring in money.

I wrote this before:

--------------------

But I return to the main point:
In my opinion, this thread had to be entitled:
"Why FF7 ISN'T the best RPG ever" or
"Why FF7 ISN'T the greatest game ever" or even
"Why FF7 ISN'T a perfect game"

I know the title wanted to provoke,
but I still think that FF7 is a good game,
the creators of FF series crafted it with the heart, with the enthusiasm of the possibilities allowed by the new technology.
In my opinion, the following chapters are crafted more with the head, than with the heart.
That makes it a good and enjoyable game, but it still my point of view.

--------------------------------------

It is only an impression of mine or does someone agree with me?

i liked ff7 but i gotta agree it paved the way for the rest esspecially my fav ff8

i hated the materia systems and the limit breaks learning system was crap not my fav it got to much praise but it aint all that gotta agree with aio on this one sorry

Originally posted by Smokey

Well, we have to compare the game with <I>something</I>. Do you want me to just say I'm not comparing it to other games when I critique FFVII? When people debate which Final Fantasy game is the best, they <I>have</I> to compare it.

Well, you could compare it to other RPG's that were out at about the same time... Surely there were a few other than FF7 released at the same time.

Also, I found this old article to be quite interesting. (http://members.aol.com/chikong/retro_ffantasy.html) Though somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand.

I just want to point out that this isn't a thread about how popular FF7 was. I can't stand playing first person shooters; I think they're just a big showcase of graphics and cool guns. Those games sell extremely well, but there's almost nothing to them.

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist


Well I had typed something longer and I lost it. But if you really want to know, YES IT WAS THE MOST POPULAR. I find it highly amusing that one would deem it "unworthy" Sure, not all people have the same tastes, I know that! But looking at it now and criticizing it for not being up to par with this generation's games, is very low and stupid. It's obvious that it made the most money out of all the FF's, can you not see that? Poking fun of the battle system isn't a very good reasen either. So what? What was so bad about it? Was it so hard to use? I think that the materia system is one of the best battle systems that they have created, but that's just me. The real deal here is that Final Fantasy 7 is popular, made lots of money, and introduced many non-Rpg players to the genre. Now if this game doesn't deserve a praise then I don't know what does. :mad:



Helol. Im an ffvii nut i liek ffvii no mattre waht. teh materai system ROCKS. n aslo so dose cloud. he is teh bset charatre eva!
al u ffvii hatres shoudl go to hell cos we all knwo its teh best ff game eva and you jstu cant tkae it. areis deaht made me cyr, and it was colo. cluods buster sowrd was aec. ffvii gotta haev made teh most monye. it rockde. it deserves more creidt thna it gest.

Originally posted by Smokey

Well, we have to compare the game with <I>something</I>. Do you want me to just say I'm not comparing it to other games when I critique FFVII? When people debate which Final Fantasy game is the best, they <I>have</I> to compare it.


I wonder where you came up with that brilliant conclusion.


Uh that's the whole point of criticizing; to show points that you think make a game weak. I have already stated what I think about the Materia System, and I believe that it is one of the reasons that makes FFVII a bad game.


I'm sorry, but FFVII has been receiving a ton of praise ever since it was released. So if you are saying that it doesn't garner enough praise, or any at all, then you are being obtuse. It may have introduced many non-RPG players to the genre, but that's because it was marketed so much that you heard about it everywhere you went. That's a reason why it's so popular, and why it still to this day continues to bring in money.

Ehe....what? Of course it has been receiving a ton, it deserved it! Square Enix went through hard work to make such a great game, and you'rre criticizing it just for the excuse of...Comparing it to today's games?Wtf?!?! That's the lamest excuse yet! For it's time, it was exellent, and I'm sure that if we still lived in that time you would have kept your mouth shut and not said anything.

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist
<B>Of course it has been receiving a ton, it deserved it!</B>
Why does FFVII deserve so much praise? And don't just say "Because it's a great game", or something lame like that.


<B>Square Enix went through hard work to make such a great game</B>
I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure most companies spend hard work on their games. Unless you can actually prove that Square spent a lot more effort into creating this game than all others they have made, then just don't say anything like that.


<B>and you'rre criticizing it just for the excuse of...Comparing it to today's games?</B>
No, I'm criticizing it because I don't think it's as good as everybody says it is.


<B>Wtf?!?! That's the lamest excuse yet!</B>
No not really. Let's say that FFVII was the only video game on the face of the planet, in existence. You would <I>have</I> to say that it's the greatest game ever, because there would be nothing to compare it with. But since there are literally thousands of video games that have been created, people are now allowed to compare it to other games. I'm not just criticizing the game just because I'm comparing it to other games; I just don't believe FFVII is that good.


<B>For it's time, it was exellent, and I'm sure that if we still lived in that time you would have kept your mouth shut and not said anything. </B>
I've already admitted that the game was good when I first played it. But then again, that was seven years ago. My opinions on video games change over the period of years and years, and it has with FFVII.

Actually, my opinion is that video games have been getting progressively worse as time goes on. Game makers are now ignoring storyline more and more just to tack on with graphics.

Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves
Actually, my opinion is that video games have been getting progressively worse as time goes on. Game makers are now ignoring storyline more and more just to tack on with graphics.

I really don't know how you can think that. After all, it's been a relatively short time since we started getting games with any kind of story at all. Back in the days of the NES and SNES, good stories were rare even among RPGs. Even just a few short years ago, most games didn't have anything more than an abbreviated backstory.

Nowadays, practically every game has a story to tell. Even if that story is crap, wouldn't you say it's better than no story at all? Considering that some games have truly exceptional stories, I'd say that it's actually getting better.