Originally posted by Smokey

Why does FFVII deserve so much praise? And don't just say "Because it's a great game", or something lame like that.


I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure most companies spend hard work on their games. Unless you can actually prove that Square spent a lot more effort into creating this game than all others they have made, then just don't say anything like that.


No, I'm criticizing it because I don't think it's as good as everybody says it is.


No not really. Let's say that FFVII was the only video game on the face of the planet, in existence. You would <I>have</I> to say that it's the greatest game ever, because there would be nothing to compare it with. But since there are literally thousands of video games that have been created, people are now allowed to compare it to other games. I'm not just criticizing the game just because I'm comparing it to other games; I just don't believe FFVII is that good.


I've already admitted that the game was good when I first played it. But then again, that was seven years ago. My opinions on video games change over the period of years and years, and it has with FFVII.

Umm...Reality check..

Yes they DID. You are stupid! They made millions of dollars on this one, and why are they even milking the franchise? To make more money on it! Because they know it was the most popular! And I'm just going to say it's a great game, because it is, and you have different tastes than others.

this is my honest opinion.
I dont see anything wrong with final fantasy 7 except for the graphics when your walking around, they're all square and got bricks for hands :/

The battle system was fine, limit breaks were fine, characters were fine, storyline was brilliant, ending was brilliant, i dont see nothing wrong.

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist


Umm...Reality check..

Yes they DID. You are stupid! They made millions of dollars on this one, and why are they even milking the franchise? To make more money on it! Because they know it was the most popular! And I'm just going to say it's a great game, because it is, and you have different tastes than others.


For the last time, this is not a thread about how popular the game was. It's about how good it was. Those are not the same thing. I think a lot of really popular games suck.

Originally posted by Tokiko
I don#t know what it was that made Square Enix not release any FF game before FF7 in Europe.
FF7 was the first one of the series to be released in Europe, the first one to be released worldwide, the first one that got the CHANCE to impress all those people on such a large scale.
.

most of the other ff games(if not all of them) befor ff7 were released in europe. i have still got most of the old ones somewere

Tifa_Martial_Artist, that was the stupidest thing I've ever seen you say. And that's saying something.

You called someone stupid in a debate thread. That's mistake #1.

Mistake #2 was you professing that it's only someone's opinion after very clear reasons have been given to support their position. In other words, you're incapable of defending your opinion, so you're trying (badly, I might add) to invalidate someone elses. That's really childish and reflects badly on the side you're trying to support.

If you want to take part in this discussion, do it properly and stop acting like a damn BRAT.

Uh-oh.

I have to celebrate, I think.

For the first time, I think that Prak is right.
I know that is a provoking person, but saying "you are stupid" is not only ridicolous, is not fair.
In one word... it's stupid.

Prak is surely quite arrogant, but he's smart in arguing about those matters.
Please don't bring down the level of the discussion with childish sentences like that.

Anyway, I have noticed something else different about FF7 and its following chapters: there is a loss of humour.

I make just an exaple:
Can u imagine Squall of Final F8 or Tidus of FFX climbing on a WC?
No, of course.:D
I think that FFsaga has to return to some stupids (but entertaing)moments of its origins.

Originally posted by aio
Anyway, I have noticed something else different about FF7 and its following chapters: there is a loss of humour.
Are you saying that FFVII is the only humorous game in the series? I'm sorry, but saying that since all the Final Fantasy games after VII don't have humor takes away something from those games isn't right. Games like these are not meant to be funny.

Originally posted by Prak
Tifa_Martial_Artist, that was the stupidest thing I've ever seen you say. And that's saying something.

You called someone stupid in a debate thread. That's mistake #1.

Mistake #2 was you professing that it's only someone's opinion after very clear reasons have been given to support their position. In other words, you're incapable of defending your opinion, so you're trying (badly, I might add) to invalidate someone elses. That's really childish and reflects badly on the side you're trying to support.

If you want to take part in this discussion, do it properly and stop acting like a damn BRAT.

Aww..I'm sowwy, did I huwt yow feewings?11123

I'm not talking about how popular it was, in fact, I'm talking about how popular and GOOD it was. So if you can't accept the fact that it DID make lots of money and that it WAS loved by more people than Zelda to this day, well..then...That's just your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact.

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist
<B>Aww..I'm sowwy, did I huwt yow feewings?11123</B>
You don't realize how stupid you look by putting all those numbers in there.


<B>I'm not talking about how popular it was, in fact, I'm talking about how popular and GOOD it was.</B>
I talked about how popular it was, and I also gave reasons as to why it became, and still is to this day, so popular. I also have admitted that I thought it was a good game, when I first played it, but that was seven years ago, and I no longer hold that same feeling over the game. I have since stated the reasons why I think FFVII is a bad game, which I've yet to see why you believe it's a good game.


<B>So if you can't accept the fact that it DID make lots of money and that it WAS loved by more people than Zelda to this day, well..then...That's just your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact.</B>
I, for one, know that it did make lots of money. Prak and I have also talked about it, and we both fully acknowledge that FFVII brought in a ton of money. I have never said it didn't bring in lots of money, so to come up with that statement is just beyond me.

Also, what's with the Zelda reference?

Zelda is better than Tifa Martial Artist. You are just antoher FFVII nut. There are other good Square games out there. Chrono trigger is better than alot of the FF's, I can imagine that made a fair few bob.

Anyway, wheres the money element come from. This thread is about Why FFVII is BAD, and its turned round. :( .

Its turned into a maaive brawl thanks to the Jerkasses who whined at the slightest element of critisism for the game.


NB: If you ever want your Problems analysed, contact Prak!

Originally posted by Tifa_Martial_Artist




I'm not talking about how popular it was... if you can't accept the fact that it DID make lots of money and that it WAS loved by more people than Zelda to this day, well..then...That's just your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact.

Like I said, I think a lot of really popular games suck. And your only argument is how much money it made and how many people loved the game. That is astoundingly similar to saying that is a very popular game. It's as though you aren't even reading the other people's posts, and you're just reiterating your superfluous argument. Also, I am pretty sure that we all know that what we are saying is our opinion, so you don't have to tell us.

for me the graphics were the only flaw. unlike some grandperents here when i put that cd into the ps i was expecting some marginaly good graphics. insted, i found bricks running around the screen making out to be charactors. i could bearly tell one caractor from another. other then that the game was good.

it IS a good game

That was pointless. This is a debate, in case you hadn't noticed. And if that's all you can say, it's not a very good showing for your side.

I mean, did you even bother to read all the stuff we posted? We've ass-raped nearly every aspect of the game. You simply saying it's good doesn't stand up to that.

Let's make the point of the situation.

Who says that FF7 is a bad or not a good game is not simply saying "'cause I don't like it" (this is obviously possible)

but spends in some cases tons of text just to say:

FF7 is not so great as you FF7-maniac can think.

If u look at the first post of the thread, you will see criticisims like "FF7 is not the only game where a character dies".

This can only mean: "You, FF7 maniac, that you are saying that FF7 is the only-best-greatest-RPG and game of ever and the others suck, you must know that is not so original"

There are more sentences like that. So what?
It' not SO damn unique for you?

Ok, but it was beautiful and is still a great game, 'cause has many enjoyable features that are not so different from the other chapters.
I like it more than its following chapters, maybe it's personal taste;
but a real bad game shouldn't even deserve to be played or completed,
and even the most angry FF7 hater did it.

So, let's change the title of the thread as:
"WHY FF7 ISN'T A PERFECT GAME"...
:D

Originally posted by aio
<B>Who says that FF7 is a bad or not a good game is not simply saying "'cause I don't like it" (this is obviously possible)</B>
That is not necessarily true. I think Grand Theft Auto is a great series, but I absolutely hate it.

If u look at the first post of the thread, you will see criticisims like "FF7 is not the only game where a character dies".


<B>This can only mean: "You, FF7 maniac, that you are saying that FF7 is the only-best-greatest-RPG and game of ever and the others suck, you must know that is not so original"

There are more sentences like that. So what?
It' not SO damn unique for you?</B>
If only I was capable of understanding what you were trying to say, then I would be able to respond to something more witty than this.


<B>Ok, but it was beautiful and is still a great game, 'cause has many enjoyable features that are not so different from the other chapters.</B>
If it has many enjoyable features that are similar to the other Final Fantasy games, then surely you are saying that they are great as well.


<B>I like it more than its following chapters, maybe it's personal taste;</B>
Or maybe because the Final Fantasy series has been trying to impress everyone with their drop-dead graphics, instead of a good storyline. FFX was an exception.


<B>but a real bad game shouldn't even deserve to be played or completed,
and even the most angry FF7 hater did it.</B>
That's an irrelevant statement. Just because a game is bad, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be played by people.

People never actually <I>know</I> whether a game is good or not until they <B>play the game</B>. Yes, you can come up with an expectation from reading game reviews or something else like that, but you never really get the full feeling of the game until you play it.


<B>So, let's change the title of the thread as:
"WHY FF7 ISN'T A PERFECT GAME"...
:D </B>
I'm sorry, but there is no perfect game out there. And by saying that, you <I>are</I> claiming FFVII to be the perfect game.

Originally posted by Smokey

Or maybe because the Final Fantasy series has been trying to impress everyone with their drop-dead graphics, instead of a good storyline. FFX was an exception..


Originally posted by Smokey

Or maybe because the Final Fantasy series has been trying to impress everyone with their drop-dead graphics, instead of a good storyline. FFX was an exception..

FF1 was the first RPG I ever played. And to be honest, I wouldn't have cared if FF7 had the same 8-bit sprites and everything, I still thought it was a good game. I don't see why you think that the story is so straightforward and easy to follow; it took me three times through the game to figure out who Cloud was (I was about 7 or so the first time, so I couldn't quite grasp it then.) And as for FFX, what good storyline there may have been was too hard to concentrate on considering how whiny and annoying Tidus was. *Spoiler coming up* It was like Christmas come early for me when I found out he didn't exist. Finally, I don't think it's a fair comparison between FF7 and the earlier ones. You have to understand that FF7 opened the series up for a larger audience, for better or for worse.

P.S. I also don't like the fact that the main male character seems to have less and less clothing in every game. (yes, I am male)

i would have probably liked 7 better if it had the 2d graphics of 1-5(not sure about 6) except for the fmvs. because in my opinion square went a little over board with the 3d and collour sceams just because they new they could. also i didnt realy like the materia system, it seemed to limit your magic and other comand abilities. 7 did set new heights for rpgs and i do respect it for that.

Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves
<B>I don't see why you think that the story is so straightforward and easy to follow; it took me three times through the game to figure out who Cloud was (I was about 7 or so the first time, so I couldn't quite grasp it then.)</B>
I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I'm older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.

Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It's just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.

Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That's it? That's the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.

This is the storyline of FFVII:

You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.

__________________________________________________


Notice how there aren't any bumps or nicks in the line?

Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.

Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:

Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.

Done.

Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.

Done.

Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.

Done.

This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn't really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.

Like I said before, it's like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

This is what I think about the storyline.


<B>Finally, I don't think it's a fair comparison between FF7 and the earlier ones. You have to understand that FF7 opened the series up for a larger audience, for better or for worse.</B>
When you compare FFVII to see if it is better than other games in the series, you <I>have</I> to compare it with the ones before it. I don't see why you even say something like that. I believe that FFIV, FFVI, and FFX are all better than FFVII. Notice how two of those games are ones that were released prior to FFVII?

And quit with the whole "FFVII PAVED THE WAY FOR GAMES TO COME" crap. It only 'paved' the way, because there was a lot more that Square could do with the game, because it was being produced for a more powerful system than SNES. The system is what paves the way for games to come.

Originally posted by Smokey

And quit with the whole "FFVII PAVED THE WAY FOR GAMES TO COME" crap. It only 'paved' the way, because there was a lot more that Square could do with the game, because it was being produced for a more powerful system than SNES. The system is what paves the way for games to come.

I didn't say that FF7 was revolutionarily good or anything like that. What I mean by what I said is that FF7 was an attempt to get more money by opening the series up to a larger audience. This, if anything, was a bad thing. And I see your point about the sraightforward plot, but I think that is another product of trying open up the series for a larger audience. Again, I did not say this was a good thing. If you look at FFX-2, you see what this sort of popularization has done to the series. Another thing that sort of gave the illusion of a really good storyline was the soundtrack. When Sephiroth first begins to manipulate Cloud, the music is incredibly eerie. It is my opinion that FF7 had the best soundtrack of the series hands down. No, I'm not saying that it IS the best, I'm just saying that is my opinion. And yeah, I realize that I was pretty much totally wrong about the comparison thing; you're right, you do have to compare it to earlier games. I will say in defense of the plot though that Aeris's death was not the only reason for fighting Sephiroth, Cloud had many other reasons (I.E. his hometown was completely destroyed, Tifa almost killed) and the rest of your party had each his/her separate reason. And I'm not saying that this IS THE reason, but your opinion of FF7 may have something to do with the lack of replayability of most RPGs. The only really replayable RPG was Chrono Trigger, and, well, that was quite a good game.

P.S. When I said I thought FF7 had the best soundtrack of the series, I was excluding non Final Fantasy games by Square, so that puts Chrono Trigger out of the category. I can't decide which of the two has the better soundtrack.

Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves
<B>I didn't say that FF7 was revolutionarily good or anything like that.</B>
Well, when you say that you think it's a good game, and that it paved the way, it sounds like you are saying something similar to that.


<B>Another thing that sort of gave the illusion of a really good storyline was the soundtrack. When Sephiroth first begins to manipulate Cloud, the music is incredibly eerie.</B>
I'll admit that the soundtrack is good. There are some great tracks on there, but I don't see that as a contributing factor to the storyline. Yes, when Sephiroth is manipulating Cloud, the music that plays in the background does set the mood and scene really well. But I don't think it added anything significent to the story.


<B>It is my opinion that FF7 had the best soundtrack of the series hands down. No, I'm not saying that it IS the best, I'm just saying that is my opinion.</B>
Again, I think it has a good soundtrack, maybe even great. I would have to go back and listen to it again. And I can't compare it to all the other Final Fantasies, because I wasn't using that as one of my arguments against the game or anything. If I actually sat down and compared the Final Fantasy soundtracks, I would be able to tell you whether or not I think it is one of the best, or just really good.


<B>And I'm not saying that this IS THE reason, but your opinion of FF7 may have something to do with the lack of replayability of most RPGs. The only really replayable RPG was Chrono Trigger, and, well, that was quite a good game.</B>
For one, pick up Tales of Symphonia. Now there is an RPG with loads of replay value. And if you are saying that there is only one RPG that is worth replaying, then I don't think you have played too many at all.

Smokey, you said that (for the Nth time) FF7 is a bad game bacause has:

1. No replay value.

Your point is: because I don't like the ending, because the secrets are reacheable during the 1st play. But, completing the game surely takes long, maybe the game is not thought about replaying, but about LONG-playing.
The other chapters of FF are also in this way: why do u have to complain just about FF7?

2. Linear story.

Ok, you think that. Let's assume that is true.
I think that even FFX has a linear story (in my opinion, more than 7, but it's just my thought)
SPOILERS COMING: Tidus is brought to another dimension, he knows new friends, they must trave l to Zanarkand and defeat Seymour and Sin, who's actually the father of Tidus. And Tidus came from a virtual dimension: Auron knew it, but he revealed just at the end... what a surprise...
But the difference between me and you, Smokey, is that I think that FFX is still a good game despite to the linear story: it's linear, but it's enjoyable the first time, even if there aren't many surprises.

A game is a bad game when its gameplay doesn't work, or the plot is really obvious, that's for sure.
I think it's not the case of FF7.

Originally posted by Smokey

And if you are saying that there is only one RPG that is worth replaying, then I don't think you have played too many at all.


I wasn't saying that, I was just giving an example. The FF series is pretty much just unreplayable RPGs, and that was my point.

Originally posted by aio
<B>Smokey, you said that (for the Nth time) FF7 is a bad game bacause has:

1. No replay value.

The other chapters of FF are also in this way: why do u have to complain just about FF7?</B>
This is the FFVII forum, and also the thread about FFVII. I'm not here to discuss any other game, because the thread is not about what makes FFX a bad game.


<B>2. Linear story.

Ok, you think that. Let's assume that is true.
I think that even FFX has a linear story (in my opinion, more than 7, but it's just my thought)
SPOILERS COMING: Tidus is brought to another dimension, he knows new friends, they must trave l to Zanarkand and defeat Seymour and Sin, who's actually the father of Tidus. And Tidus came from a virtual dimension: Auron knew it, but he revealed just at the end... what a surprise...
[I]But the difference between me and you, Smokey, is that I think that FFX is still a good game despite to the linear story: it's linear, but it's enjoyable the first time, even if there aren't many surprises.</B>
Ok, once again, we are discussing FFVII, not FFX. I'll go ahead and say that I think FFX is better, and does have a linear storyline. So what? That isn't even one of my points. And I have no idea where you are assuming I said FFX wasn't a good game.


<I>Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves
</I>
<B>I wasn't saying that, I was just giving an example. The FF series is pretty much just unreplayable RPGs, and that was my point.</B>


<B>but your opinion of FF7 may have something to do with the lack of replayability of most RPGs. The only really replayable RPG was Chrono Trigger, and, well, that was quite a good game.</B>
No, you weren't only talking about the Final Fantasies in general. If you were, you did a poor job at it. It is clear that you stated most RPG's as having no replay value at all.

sometimes having too high expectations of something are only destroying the meaning of what is ask of our human lifes.
you can never say something like "this is the greatest game in the world" because human improves and everything will be different, but for people who (like me) loves to stick to one thing that's why there are the so call million and billions of fanatics in this world.......we stay true to what we love even though there' better things than the things we love........
everyone has their own preference of what's a great game and we cannot change that. what make ff7 a great game is that some people just happens to love it although it might not be the best in the world just like how you love an artist and some people might try to make u dislike that artist but you continue to like that artist because we simply have our own reasons and we simply love the artist for being their imperfect self.....either good or bad.....
for example when playstation came out it was like the best game system, but now they improve and we have better ones like psp, x-box, ps2 etc. just to satisfy our human wants that are always unlimited........we can never be satisfy and that's what make this world so unique because over time we keep on improving but what was once great will always stay great!

you did admit you once love it.....and that's enough right? us, fanboys and fangirls who love ff7 like you said, are not going crazy and telling everyone how good it is and dissing other games because we love ff7 and hate the others....we're only doing our part as fans to support the game we love and that's not wrong of us because just like how we love, we love unconditionally and wholely (well for some people it's a different story).
I'm not trying to change your thoughts and it's good that we can hear views from people like you about the game...the forum is so much active!:) and it gives us a chance to express our views about it.......

This is directed to the first statment made by *cough* Rabid Monkey (Interesting name, not that anyone else's name is better):

I must say you make a very poignant argument, however you missed a very key element to what makes FF7 such
a GOOD game; that is to say, the amazing charater development. I commend the writers for creating characters you can literally fall in love with. It gives me an emotional rush every time I play that game and I can't get enough of it. Switching gears a little the writers have incredible imagination (something you can obviousley never posess); with the exception of Barret and in some instances Cid, the writers never revert to "Stock Characters" and end up creating very original very REAL and very compelling characters. Coinciding with this inherent genious of character strategy and beautifully timed introduction, is the rollercoater of emotions inter-twined with the characters while progressing through the plot. If you notice that unlike other games that are either always dark or always happy, FF7 goes from one extreme to the other and everywhere in-between. This aforementioned rollercoaster keeps you fixated on the game and wondering where it is going next. As for the plot line itself, did you decide whether it was simple or not before or after you finished the game? I'm sorry but unless you have some type of as of yet undiscovered premonition you could never have known meteor was going to ram into the planet when Cloud and Barret first started out in Midgar. Besides all of this, I find myself humming the music of FF7 from time to time and that in and of itself is pretty cool;) Answer to all of
these equally poignant arguments and you might earn my respect... Rabid Monkey???

Originally posted by minimin
<B>us, fanboys and fangirls who love ff7 like you said, are not going crazy and telling everyone how good it is and dissing other games because we love ff7 and hate the others</B>
You obviously haven't been here long enough to see how most of the FFVII fans truly act. Granted, they might not always say "FFVII IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!", but they are still saying a bunch of other crap that gets old rather quickly.

Also, John Locke Jr, you should read the entire thread. It is apparent that Rabid Monkey hasn't posted in this one for a while now, as it has been basically Prak and I still criticizing the game.

I joined this site last night after I read most of the posts in this thread. I have never before been to a forum, so that litttle piece of work was my first ever post :)

You (Smokey), Rabid Monkey and MAYBE FF1WithAllTheives are the only one's with comments worth argueing or accepting. If you are taking Rabid Monkey's place then you may answer for him. I would much appreciate it :)

FF1WithAllTheives: most of what you say seems very well thought out consice and to the point, (Redundant) I commend you.
I was about twelve when I first played FF7 and it was also my first RPG :)

Originally posted by John Locke Jr.
<B>I joined this site last night after I read most of the posts in this thread. I have never before been to a forum, so that litttle piece of work was my first ever post :) </B>
Then I welcome you to this forum. I hope you stay here and have lots of fun.


<B>You (Smokey), Rabid Monkey and MAYBE FF1WithAllTheives are the only one's with comments worth argueing or accepting. If you are taking Rabid Monkey's place then you may answer for him. I would much appreciate it :)</B>
I'm sorry, but I don't answer for him. If you really want to know bad enough, PM him about it, and ask for yourself.

My previous statements are now directed to the thread in general and not to any one person in particular.

The storyline was good, yes, for a first-time-through story.

After which, though, it's incredibly stale--and quite uneventful.

You (Smokey), Rabid Monkey and MAYBE FF1WithAllTheives are the only one's with comments worth argueing or accepting.


I feel insulted. Why would you think my arguments aren't worth regarding? I do so hope you have an answer for that. Otherwise, I promise you will not live it down as long as you post here.

Despite the fact that you all make excellent arguments, especially Rabid Monkey,Smokey, Prak and others whose names I have forgotten after reading fiffteen pages (yes I read the whole thing but don't test me because my memory is pretty bad) I haven't been completely converted, however, I accept the fact that FFVII has flaws, some of them really get on nerves but even though it can be a bad game I still like it. I guess why I still like it is because I watched my brother play it through when I was about 11 and I admired the storyline and characters, I finally got to play it when I was 14 and loved it then as well, so it was a kind of a thing that you grow up with (for me).

Anyway, you've all managed to move me from one side of the board to the middle and I now accept that FFVII is both a good and bad game.
Keep debating by the way cause you guys are great at it!
(This is the first time I've posted in a forum so be nice...please...)

I think I just figured out one reason why I didn't notice many of the flaws of FF7. You mention often that FF7 tells you exactly what to do at all times. Well, I have always made it a point not to do what I'm supposed to do until I run out of other things to do in RPGs. So when someone tells me how to get to Junon, I say to myself, "Well, now I know where NOT to go." This, of course, got me caught up in every little side quest and it was like a totally different plot from what the game is like if you just go straight through it. And I can't really get much of an idea about how difficult it is because FF1 got me in the habit of leveling up for a few hours evrery so often, which makes the game pretty easy anyway. When I think of what the game would have been like if I had just breezed through it like I could have, I can see your point that it isn't that good of a game. I think part of FF7 is only as good as you make it.

Well, Prak, I meant to include you in my first statement but, I was in a hurry to finish the edit. I must apologize, however do not think yourself some sort of Forum Demi God, or some shit like that =) Some of your comments were worth the read but not all and since I like FF7 and apperently you don't then you might try to explain your objections more fully and I will debate you accordingly =)

Demi-god? No way... I'd never lower myself to that level. :p

I think my objections are quite well detailed. Just go back and look at them if you really want to debate them.

You obviously haven't been here long enough to see how most of the FFVII fans truly act. Granted, they might not always say "FFVII IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!", but they are still saying a bunch of other crap that gets old rather quickly.

Yes I agree that fans with more sense wouldn't do that...what I mean is that I wouldn't know of what the other fans here do since I'm rather new to the game or this forum.

To tell the truth I was only attracted to this game only because of the introduction of Advent Children from a friend. I thought the characters were pretty attractive and I was always amazed by the CG works of the final fantasy makers. I don't really have any certain set standard for a good game; once I like the game I like it no matter how much flaws it has or how easy it is. The easier the better for me since I'm not those people that'll like to load my brain with a bunch of cell killers since I'm already stressed enough with school works which made me sleep everynight at 2. I just like those type of games where I don't have to get crazy off because I can't beat it.

For the love of chickens, this thread still here, then.

hmm... the ending? The fact that it ends at all?

NOT A GOOD GAME!!!! HOW CAN U SAY THAT!!!!! NOT A GOOD GAME!!! ITS AN OUTRAGE U STINKIN...... well lets just say your wrong. how bout that? not a good game HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! LOL u strange delusional person....

NOT A GOOD GAME!!!! HOW CAN U SAY THAT!!!!! NOT A GOOD GAME!!! ITS AN OUTRAGE U STINKIN...... well lets just say your wrong. how bout that? not a good game HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! LOL u strange delusional person....
Fine, here you go:

<B>Storyline</B>

I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I'm older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.

Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It's just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.

Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That's it? That's the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.

This is the storyline of FFVII:

You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.

__________________________________________________

Notice how there aren't any bumps or nicks in the line?

Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.

Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:

Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.

Done.

Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.

Done.

Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.

Done.

This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn't really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.

Like I said before, it's like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

<B>An Unfinished Game</B>

The guy in the pipe at the beginning of the game could very well possibly be Zack. But, Square didn't add anything else to the game, that could have led you to finding out exactly who it was in there.

The guy who's living in it is a normal human who was
infected with Jenova cells, that's why he has a number 2 tattoo. After you have finished with dialouge in the Midgar Slums, you are told that an Elixer can be found in the pipe. But, when you go back there, you will not find an Elixer. Obviously, this is a mistake by Square, or quite possibly, an item they just took out of the game. But how could the item have gotten there in the first place?

The Nibelheim clones. Every guy in a black cloak gave us some item after we talked to him, right? And all the clones had a number tattoed on their body somewhere, just like the man in the pipe. But, if that's the case, why wouldn't this man give you an item as well?

If you want some more rock-solid evidence that FFVII isn't and never will be a finished game, go here

<B>Aeris' Death</B>

Aeris' death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn't make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party's resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.

Another thing: I don't see why people get so riled up about this scene. Aeris was going to die sooner or later, so why not just get it over with? In fact, it would have been worse if she died later in the game. Her relationship would have improved with Cloud probably, and it would have been more uncessessary drama to see her die after this.

She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.

<B>The Importance of Aeris' Death</B>

When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't know if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Yes, her death was important for the storyline, but she was going to die regardless of whether or not Sephiroth did her in first.

When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them.

<B>Cloud in the Lifestream</B>

Can you say incredibly boring? I mean, this sequence of events did reveal some important facts about Cloud and other necessities, but did Square have to do it in this fashion? I don't see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not like he intentionally jumped into the Lifestream for no apparent reason or anything.

Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.

<B>The Materia System</B>

I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it's a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you. That's pretty stupid if you ask me. Also, since the Materia depletes your HP and Strength, you have to waste even more slots to bring back up these two categories, with HP Plus, and Str. Plus.

I admit, that the Materia System was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that's it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work the Materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.

You say the Materia System takes some thinking and thought? Pfft. The strategy guide describes to you all of the basic combinations that you will ever need, even though it's doesn't take a genius to figure out how to work it. It isn't complicated at all. You just put a Materia here and there, and you will come up with a combination that is good enough.

The Materia System is terrible. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduces your maximum HP by 20%. So, you are capable of losing up to 2,000 of your Max HP, just by being able to cast a summon? That is pretty lame.

Also, the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in battles leveling up your Materia to a certain strongness is something that made the game very boring for me. I don't want to spend hours earning AP, just so that my Choco/Mog summon can gain another star, and be that much closer to giving birth to a new Choco/Mog.

<B>The Advertising of FFVII</B>

FFVII is by-far the most advertised game in history. On the television ads, you would see the FMV's from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.

Also, the strategy guide was released with the game. It was the first Final Fantasy game to do this, so that is another reason people loved this game immediately. Owners of local game shops everywhere were telling people to buy the strategy guide along with it, just to help with the publicity FFVII wanted to receive. With the stategy guide, gamers didn't even have to think about what to do next, or where to go. Everything was given to them on a silver platter, so to speak.

<B>What Makes FFVII So Popular</B>

FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, because it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it. I mean seriously, this is one of the easiest games I have ever played in my life, and I've been playing for well over 16 years now.

And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.

I also admit that there are some things that you need to stray off-course to acquire. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn't required to finish the game. It wasn't mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent's best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game. It would be nice if there was something hard that was mandatory in the game.

<B>The Strategy Guide</B>

The strategy guide. Yes, like I said before, this was the first Final Fantasy game to come with a strategy guide. The book alone is a reason that led to the huge success of FFVII. Take away the strategy guide with the release of the game, and the game would be less popular today. I know that strategy guides are available for the previous Final Fantasy games, but they are really hard to find now. And, they were hard to find then, because I never saw one for FFIV or FFVI. I love the challenge of playing through a game without any help. But, obviously thousands of FFVII fans didn't see it my way.

The game is incredibly easy. It tells you straight out what is playing out, in accordance with where you need to head next. You don't have to do a little bit of hunting to find out what location you are supposed to be at. I didn't actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.

<B>Knights Of The Round</B>

All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don't even need it to beat the game. I don't understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR. This summon helps make the game popular, while the fact of the matter is, KOTR is irrelevant to finishing the game.

You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there's no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.

It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don't even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it's pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.

<B>Manipulation</B>

FFVII was a smash hit because the game manipulated it's fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.

<B>Play Final Fantasy 1-6 First</B>

Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn't say that everything about the game is revolutionary. FFVI has a better storyline than FFVII, and also more personality in their characters. FFIV had the ongoing theme of the love triangle between Cecil, Kain, and Rosa.

What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.

<B>The Graphics</B>

The graphics were some of the best anyone had ever seen when the game came out. Yes, it was nice to see this, but it subtracted from the storyline. I believe, basically, that the storylines of all the Final Fantasy games after VI have gone downhill. Square is putting more time and thought into graphical representation than storytelling, and that's a shame.

You really can't use the argument of FFVII's graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. By reading this, you would have to say that FFVIII was revolutionary in graphics, not FFVII. Of course the graphics were better than those of the SNES. But, what do you expect from a more powerful system in the Playstation?

<B>The Limit Break</B>

Quite frankly, I thought it was retarded. You aren't allowed to physically attack anymore until you have used your Limit Break? That is so stupid. What happens if you are right before a big boss, and you earn your Limit Break. You don't want to use it on weak enemies, and you certainly don't want to spend more time earning the Limit Break again if you do decide to use it.

<B>Shinra And The Turks</B>

This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.

<B>The Ending</B>

I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline. It just shows Red XIII overlooking a grassy Midgar? Wow, that's awesome!

No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That's it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn't make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn't leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.

<B>The Battle System</B>

Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn't see this at all in FFVII.

<B>Sephiroth</B>

Greatest villian of all time?

No. Sephiroth is maybe a descent villian, but I don't consider him to be better than someone like Kefka, by a longshot.

I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That's pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.

For instance, Sephiroth kills Aeris from behind, flys away when danger is near (Cloud), and always manipulates Cloud to do his dirty work. If you ask me, that sounds kind of cowardish.

Kefka wouldn't kill Aeris from behind. He would do it so that she could see him deliver the finishing blow. Then, knowing that her death is not good enough, he would stand over the body and laugh *grr*, and then slice her head off. And he wouldn't run away from the scene of the crime either.

Sephiroth is a boring and flat character. He never scared me with anything he did. His atmosphere never drove me to hate him, like villians are supposed to do. I don't see what is so special about Sephiroth? His Masamune?

If you think Sephiroth is the best Final Fantasy villian ever, you need to play, preferably, FFVI again. Sephiroth is really one-dimensional, in the sense that he basically had only one goal.

Also, he did some irrelevant actions during the game.

Why was he goofing and messing around at the Gold Saucer?

He did kill Aeris, but he was a coward when he did it.

Maybe the most important thing, is that he was basically sleeping throughout most of the game. Then, near the end, he wakes up, and grows a wing and halo?

Sephiroth is not that cool.

<B>Rufus</B>

I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus's father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn't add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can't be stopped.

<B>Zack</B>

And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don't remember about the man in the pipe at all. It's only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don't know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn't.

<B>Mini-Games</B>

I found the Mini-Games to be entertaining, for about a minute. The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to. Helping a Moogle have sex with another Moogle has got to be the most bizarre mini-game to date. Arm Wresting, Basketball, Kick-Boxing? Yes, there are a variety of mini-games in FFVII, but there is no big reward for them. With Blitzball in FFX, you received a lot better rewards for winning matches and scoring goals.

Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don't feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren't mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?

What do you get for getting a Moogle laid?

30 points.

Anything else you guys would like for me to explain?

Just FYI, you got a few holes in your points. First off, Sephiroth was NOT created. He was Hojo and Lucrecia's son. Professor Gast injected Jucrecia with Jenova cells before Sephiroth's birth. This was what set Sephiroth apart from all of the clones. (or at least I think it is.) Also, the part about Cloud in the lifestream was necessary, even if it could have been done much better. I mean, Cloud is the main character in the game, and you don't even know who he is. Now I agree with you on two counts about the story: one, that Aeris's death was not that dramatic, and two, that it is unfinished. The first time I saw the ending, I was like, "What the hell just happened?! Does this game mean to tell me that the planet saved itself making the entire course of the game a complete waste of time?" Now, this is still going through my head. And after three times through the game, I still don't get it. I stand by my belief that Square meant to make the plot simpler, as well as the gameplay, and that this was a bad thing. I agree that FFIV and FFVI were, in reality, better. The one thing that I must say is that none of the FF games that came out after it were any better. FFVIII was more of the same that was in FFVII, so it was OK. But FFIX and FFX had the most annoying main characters ever created. Zidane was an arrogant little piece of crap. But Tidus, *shudders*. As I said before, (spoiler coming up) it was like Christmas come early when I found out that he didn't exist. And as for FFX-2, I refuse to play a game in which the main character is a pop singer.

First off, Sephiroth was NOT created. He was Hojo and Lucrecia's son. Professor Gast injected Jucrecia with Jenova cells before Sephiroth's birth. This was what set Sephiroth apart from all of the clones. (or at least I think it is.)</B>
I said the reason Sephiroth went all crazy and stuff was because he was created. Meaning, at the time, it's what him and everyone believed was true. I know he wasn't created, but I said that because it's what drove him insane.


<B>Also, the part about Cloud in the lifestream was necessary, even if it could have been done much better. I mean, Cloud is the main character in the game, and you don't even know who he is.</B>
If you read carefully, I said that while Cloud was in the Lifestream, some important information was revealed. I also said that it was really boring and pointless, because why did Square have to take so long in leaking out bits of information at a time. In a whole, the scene wasn't necessary, because I think it was pretty stupid to have something like that take so long. Those facts should have been spread out more over the course of the game.


<B>The one thing that I must say is that none of the FF games that came out after it were any better. FFVIII was more of the same that was in FFVII, so it was OK.</B>
I really don't like this game at all either, but I won't get into that here.


<B>But FFIX and FFX had the most annoying main characters ever created. Zidane was an arrogant little piece of crap. But Tidus, *shudders*. As I said before, (spoiler coming up) it was like Christmas come early when I found out that he didn't exist.</B>

You're saying that FFIX and FFX are worse than FFVII because Zidane and Tidus were annoying characters? I'm not trying to get into a debate about this here, but that's a pretty weak reason to say one game is better than the other.


<B>As for FFX-2, I refuse to play a game in which the main character is a pop singer. </B>
You only say that because of the opening scene. It's not like she stays a pop singer throughout the entire game.

You have some good point rabid monkey, but its got to be better than all the other FF games or their forums would have the most posts in, not FFVII.

You have some good point rabid monkey, but its got to be better than all the other FF games or their forums would have the most posts in, not FFVII.
That's a pretty retarded statement. There are far more fans of this game than any of the other Final Fantasy games. Also, there are so many people who come to register <I>mainly</I> for the sole purpose of posting in this forum and finding out as much as they can about BC and AC.

For FFIX, I had other reasons not to like it. For instance, I absolutely loathed the concept of getting abilities from weapons. You had to use the weak weapons for a long time or just not get their abilities. I thought that was really stupid. Plus, I hated the ATEs. They kept popping up and getting in the way of what was going on.
As for FFX, I really do mean to say that Tidus got in the way of the game itself. I cringed every time he said something. It's just so hard to enjoy a game with a character like that.
Concerning FFX-2, well, I might play it some time. However, I really don't feel much inclination to get it, as the FF series seems to have been going downhill since FFVI.
I'm still totally in the dark about FFXII, so don't ask me about that one.

...too much to respond to

but shoot yourself. I have all the final fantasy's and i won't argue that ffvII isn't the best, but in my opinion the only thing that can touch ffVII would be ffVI...and ffVII did make you think so dunno what your talking about. maybe you didnt get the full plot?

My favorite RPG though is ffvii ( at leas tin the ff series ) because it's so damn different.
the materia system is UNIQUE. most characters learn magic and that limits who can use waht

and as for one character cna use every skill in the game...it's not like it's easy to get that! You have to master ALL the materia in the game...that's like 100 materia! Thats maddd AP ... it would take quite a while, even while fighting the pots in the crater, as well as using clouds apocalypse.

and as for the storyline...it's ingenius. Pure geniosity. If this gamae isn't good then i dunno what WAS good!

My favorite games: Crono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy VII, Final fantasy VI, and Star Ocean 2.

oh well..to each his/her own.

Some of your statements were incomprehensible, but at least you gave reasons for liking the game. Besides me, you're the first person to do that in months.

...too much to respond to</B>
More like, you can't come up with enough to respond with.


<B>but shoot yourself. I have all the final fantasy's and i won't argue that ffvII isn't the best, but in my opinion the only thing that can touch ffVII would be ffVI...</B>
That doesn't make any sense at all, or maybe I just don't understand it because you aren't explaining yourself that good.


<B>and ffVII did make you think so dunno what your talking about. maybe you didnt get the full plot?</B>
See my previous statement about the storyline. And if all you can say is "FFVII DID MAKE YOU THINK", and not provide reasoning to why it does, then don't even bother to debate this with me.


<B>the materia system is UNIQUE. most characters learn magic and that limits who can use waht</B>
It may be unique, but I think that's what made it really bad.


<B>and as for one character cna use every skill in the game...it's not like it's easy to get that! You have to master ALL the materia in the game...that's like 100 materia! Thats maddd AP ... it would take quite a while, even while fighting the pots in the crater, as well as using clouds apocalypse.</B>
Too bad that all this useless crap is totally unnecessary to finish the game...


<B>and as for the storyline...it's ingenius. Pure geniosity. If this gamae isn't good then i dunno what WAS good!</B>
I come up with a far better explanation about the storyline than "IT'S INGENIUS". I'm sorry, but try again when you are able to say more than two words to back up your claim.


<I>Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves</I>
<B>Some of your statements were incomprehensible, but at least you gave reasons for liking the game. Besides me, you're the first person to do that in months.</B>
You just basically admitted that you haven't read much of the thread. It's true that people rarely defend FFVII, and thanks for saying it yourself.

since you want an explanation here we go

the materia system was great, because it was the first system that actually made sense! It took a toll on your character; if it was magic materia then it took away from physical stats! Summons were jacked magic skills so obviously they took more of a toll. Some of the summons had side effects...ex: Phoenix, Hades. What materia was is also kind of cool. It's mako energy solidified...so in a sense the planet creates it's own threats. Sephiroth uses the black materia to threaten the planet as we all know...and the storyline...but wahtever im on materia

the enemy skill materia, known as blue magic, was really cool too! it could be interchangable and big guard, white wind, and a few others were really quite useful!

there were some cool combinations with materia, and a lot of the materia combinations had effects that were vital to beating the weapons: i.e. final attack + phoenix and revive.

also the materia was directly linked with your wepaons and armor due to how much yuo could hold and the growth! That was cool; that certain weapons and armor could alter how your materia developed which was cool...

also one character could learn many differnt types of magic, and not just specilize in one field... for instance in other FF's, a character could only learn whatever magic that he as a person could learn. You couldnt learn magic from another person! In Final fantasy 7 if one person mastered the fire magic, it doesnt mean that only he can use all its wonder!

as for the master magic's being a waste of time and not worth it to beat the game? Yeah well, in most games sidequests are not neded to beat the game! I dont need KoR to beat the game, but it's still just one more thing that makes it easier and more fun. Maybe your all aobut just beating the game for the sake of it?

i play to have fun. Thanks...jerk.

since you want an explanation here we go

the materia system was great, because it was the first system that actually made sense! It took a toll on your character; if it was magic materia then it took away from physical stats! Summons were jacked magic skills so obviously they took more of a toll. Some of the summons had side effects...ex: Phoenix, Hades.

And how did previous systems not make sense? And even if they didn't, how is the materia system great just because it made sense? Something can make sense and still suck.

I hated the materia for the reason that it devalued most of the characters. What does it matter who you use if they can all do anything? Thus, all you need to finish the game is 3 characters. The system was a total cop-out, giving Square fewer things they had to polish so they could get the game out faster.


What materia was is also kind of cool. It's mako energy solidified...so in a sense the planet creates it's own threats. Sephiroth uses the black materia to threaten the planet as we all know...and the storyline...but wahtever im on materia

That sounds like a great glaring plot hole to me. If the planet sees to its own safety, why the hell does it create something capable of devastating it?


the enemy skill materia, known as blue magic, was really cool too! it could be interchangable and big guard, white wind, and a few others were really quite useful!

Nothing special or unique there. How many other games have used blue magic? At least with the others, you typically had a specific character who used it, giving them their own niche in the game, instead of anyone being able to use it and making it cheap.


there were some cool combinations with materia, and a lot of the materia combinations had effects that were vital to beating the weapons: i.e. final attack + phoenix and revive.

So? Beating all the weapons isn't necessary to finish the game. The only ones you really have to fight can be beaten without that stuff. Also, the lack of high-level content was a serious flaw. The only things the game offers that are harder than the final boss are the ruby and emerald weapons, which require a ridiculously high level. There's no challenge that allows you to work up to that level. You just have to keep walking over things that are far weaker than you. Boring.


also the materia was directly linked with your wepaons and armor due to how much yuo could hold and the growth! That was cool; that certain weapons and armor could alter how your materia developed which was cool...

I would hardly call that ingenious. Some form of limiting is necessary. Without it, this already easy game would be impossible to lose.


also one character could learn many differnt types of magic, and not just specilize in one field... for instance in other FF's, a character could only learn whatever magic that he as a person could learn. You couldnt learn magic from another person! In Final fantasy 7 if one person mastered the fire magic, it doesnt mean that only he can use all its wonder!

I addressed this earlier. It devalues the individual characters, making only the overall strength of the party important. Just like communism.


as for the master magic's being a waste of time and not worth it to beat the game? Yeah well, in most games sidequests are not neded to beat the game! I dont need KoR to beat the game, but it's still just one more thing that makes it easier and more fun. Maybe your all aobut just beating the game for the sake of it?

Does someone need to be any different? What's wrong with playing a game just for fun and not obsessing about doing every tiniest little thing, no matter how boring it is achieving it? You're sounding pretty elitist.


Thanks...jerk.

By insulting him and showing yourself to be a hostile and uncivil punk, you've thrown away any credibility you might have had and have further reinforced the bad image of FFVII fans. Thanks for making our work easier... jerk.

you sort of contradicted yourself. You called the game ridiculously easy, but then you claimed that to beat the Weapons, you had to be at a ridiculously high level ( at least for emerald and ruby... )

and by saying that the entire game is easy you suggest that everythign in the game is easy...as for having to get to a ridiculously high level to get to be able to beat the weapons, that's where those who hvae the patience and care enough to fight them and see what they get come in. Those who want to do all the sidequests can...

many games have unneeded sidequests, like I said. Mastering the materia system is one of them...it's optional

the reason i liked enemy skill magic as opposed to the blue magic is because i like to level up different characters, and try to get all my characters at a reasonably high level...i wouldnt want to have to get all the magic over again....

it's what I enjoy. To be able to pass on that characteristics from one persno to the next.

and most final fantasys ARE easy...if you know what to do. i can't name a final fantasy where i'd be stuck when i knew what i had to do.

and most of the times it IS the optional sidequest that is hard. Example: ruby/emerald weapons, chocobo breeding...

okay now to go into chocobo's

the chocobo system was great in this game...maybe i just think they're cool >>
anywho, i really have always liked chocobos, and thought that they were just really neat. And the fact that you can breed chocobos and personalize them ( to an extent anyway ) and that you need them to get secret materia (Quadra magic, hp<>mp, KoR, mime ) is really neat. The chocobo system was great

the Fmv's in this game was great...for it's time anyway. Now the fmv sequence graphics are like final fantasy X/X-2's in game graphics! Actually the in-game graphics are better because they're more realistic but...

the one thing i have to say i really didn't like about final fantasy 7 was the lack of that dramatization. Well actually it depends..

i never liked aerith (or aeris for those who want to clobber me.. ) anyway...she was weak, her magic wasn't better than anyone elses, and her limit breaks were all basically the same damn thing....healing! Her level 4 limit break wasn't worth it at all to get. Not worth my time.

oh and there's one more thing i didn't like. I have to say i strongly disagreed with Tifa lying to cloud the whole storyline...that was kinda of wierd, there would have been so many more problems...but w/e

i thought that our main character being a failure was great. It was a total twist finding out that he was a low rank nobody, and that his friend was 1st class! And the whole nibelheim sequence (on the 3rd disk ) explains a good deal too.

They made connections too. With Aerith - Zack...and then Tifa - Zack, and then Cloud - Zack. That was cool

and i have to say characters Cid and Vincent are just amusing..
Vincent's just like whatever and Cid is like %!&@*

oh well.. i got really off topic, but eh.

i'll sum it up in a paragraph..

It's what you look for in a game. I look for interchangable qualities because I hate having to use this one character just cuz i need his/her powers. Flexibility...I also seemed to enjoy the summons in this game. That was just cool...It was nothing new. I just liked the sequences, and how with Odin Choco/Mog you could get different sequences. Then again in the newer Final fantasys like FFX, there was a great Summoning idea...but i'm talking about VII. The storyline was cool, it twisted a couple of times, and then just when you think you had it, it flipped, and you meet hojo! ANd your missions in the game change...You see the development in character of ... your characters. LoL...sounds wierd saying it but yeah. Cloud you see as an arrogant little dick who doesnt give for anything in the beginning, and by the end he's emotional sensitive and wants to protect the earth and all his friends. Total twist around.

yeah, i'm done. I'm gonna get hated on...but yeahh..

** edit

also something to add. I never denied that other systems made sense. I just found the materia system more appealing to me.

Thanks...jerk.



By insulting him and showing yourself to be a hostile and uncivil punk, you've thrown away any credibility you might have had and have further reinforced the bad image of FFVII fans. Thanks for making our work easier... jerk.
Isn't it ironic too see you final fantasy fans fighting against each others in a final fantasy forum about this final fantasy game not being good and craps like. I wouldn't like to step up to a Jay Chou forum and start dissing him cause it makes no sense to bash something that you don't like because you're just wasting your time and plus his fans will start dissing oyu back. And this is the ff7 section...of course you'll expect to see some tension going on here by bashing the game and thus people cursing each others. Men you guys are hilarious......I'll soon fall off my chair reading you guys quarrel.....hahahahaha........ men you guys are the best! :D

you sort of contradicted yourself. You called the game ridiculously easy, but then you claimed that to beat the Weapons, you had to be at a ridiculously high level ( at least for emerald and ruby... )</B>
I'm not sure who you were talking to there, but the game is really easy to beat. I think it's harder to defeat the Weapons than it is to beat the game. I can say that the Weapons are really difficult, but that doesn't make the game easier or harder to finish in anyway. You do not have to defeat them to beat the game, so there is no contradiction there.


<B>and by saying that the entire game is easy you suggest that everythign in the game is easy...as for having to get to a ridiculously high level to get to be able to beat the weapons, that's where those who hvae the patience and care enough to fight them and see what they get come in. Those who want to do all the sidequests can...</B>
That really has no relevance at all. I said that the game is incredibly easy to beat, but I don't ever recall saying everything was easy. Just because there is one thing you point out as being difficult to do in a game, doesn't necessarily mean that the game is hard as well. I'm suggesting that the game is easy to beat, because it is. But I will not say that everything in it is easy. There is a big difference between the two, because what you are required to do to finish the game is rather simple to accomplish, IMO.


<B>many games have unneeded sidequests, like I said. Mastering the materia system is one of them...it's optional</B>
Yes, I will definately admit that. But I'm not critiquing these other games, I'm only going after FFVII right now. If I was doing this same thing to another game, and if it had irrelevant side-quests, I would point those out as well. And with mastering the Materia, I think it takes way too long, and you have to wonder around the environment and fight too many random encounters. By the time you would be finished with mastering the Materia, you would be ridicuously stronger, and you would be guaranteed to finish the game; Although it's still relatively easy to beat the game without doing this or leveling up much.


<B>and most final fantasys ARE easy...if you know what to do. i can't name a final fantasy where i'd be stuck when i knew what i had to do.</B>
If you recall, FFVII was basically the first in the series to offer a Strategy guide with the game. Meaning, there is no way that you would not be able to finish the game. You don't need to even glance at it for a second, but Square still decided for some reason to release it with the game. FFVI is harder to finish than FFVII, and so is FFIV. Yeah, you can still finish these two games without the strategy guide, but it was a lot harder to do so than FFVII.


<B>anywho, i really have always liked chocobos, and thought that they were just really neat. And the fact that you can breed chocobos and personalize them ( to an extent anyway ) and that you need them to get secret materia (Quadra magic, hp<>mp, KoR, mime ) is really neat. The chocobo system was great</B>
I've never really had a problem with Chocobos myself, but I just absolutely hate how they were used and incorporated into the game. It takes way too long to be able to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean, when I finally got a Mountain and River Chocobo, they both came out male. So, I just wasted several hours doing a bunch of nothing. It's like Square intentionally allowed for that mistake to happen on purpose, just because the game play time would increase a few hours, thus furthering the image that it is a good game.


<B>the Fmv's in this game was great...for it's time anyway. Now the fmv sequence graphics are like final fantasy X/X-2's in game graphics! Actually the in-game graphics are better because they're more realistic but...</B>
That's just the point. You are saying that the FMV's were great when the game came out, but are no longer that because of superior ones in the most recent Final Fantasy games.


<B>i never liked aerith (or aeris for those who want to clobber me.. ) anyway...she was weak, her magic wasn't better than anyone elses, and her limit breaks were all basically the same damn thing....healing! Her level 4 limit break wasn't worth it at all to get. Not worth my time.</B>
Aeris is an overrated character, there is no doubt about it. And the whole point of her was to be a healing character. That is just the way she was added to the game.


<B>i thought that our main character being a failure was great. It was a total twist finding out that he was a low rank nobody, and that his friend was 1st class! And the whole nibelheim sequence (on the 3rd disk ) explains a good deal too.</B>
I'll admit that the way Cloud was conceived was a failure, but I don't think it was great. I don't see how something like this adds something good to the game. Or maybe I just prefer to have the main character worry more about the task at hand, instead of his friends worrying about whether or not he will be able to escape La La Land.


<B>They made connections too. With Aerith - Zack...and then Tifa - Zack, and then Cloud - Zack. That was cool</B>
Yes, there was stuff about this, but they really did a poor job with finishing all of it.

Man, this thread must've been started by people who derive self-esteem by putting down others. Leeches. Honestly. Is there anything before FFVII that is truly superior, or do you just hate it for some reason? I've read this stupid thread. It repeats itself, and every time one perfectly good, reasonable point is made, it is often responded to with an absurd, unprovable point. This happens on both sides of the argument (one side a bit more than the other). Prak, you are starting to contradict yourself with your points. Getting tired of bashing the game? There's really no point to it. No one's going to change their mind about the game because of this thread, unless they're asswipes who want to fit in somewhere. So, what's your goal here? Just to bash the game pointlessly? Fine, whatever. I'd give my explanation as to why FFVII is AWESOME, but all you would do is stick it up your ass then claim that every point I make, no matter how true it is, is invalid because of the shit you make up.

Master Nabeshin, you might as well have just said, "I'm a lunch special. Eat me alive."

You're just bashing us for bashing the game. You're not trying to make any points at all. And when you say I'm contradicting myself, you don't offer any example of this. You seem to be completely incapable of arguing your point of view. You're just bitching at us because you can't compete. Cheese goes well with whine.

And yes, we would shred anything you say because this a debate. Do you know what a debate is?

By the way, the "truths" you speak of are most likely the same mere opinions that we've been rebuking all this time.

Now go play with the kiddies on the "Who would you be?" threads and leave the arguing to the grown-ups.


Edit: Nastradamusx, Smokey addressed most of what you said, but I have a couple quick points. First, remember this?


the materia system was great, because it was the first system that actually made sense!

You did say that the other systems didn't make sense.

Secondly, the FFVII fmvs were inferior to another, less known game that came out on the same day. It was called Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain. In all technical aspects, its fmvs were superior. Higher framerate, higher polygon count, larger color pallette, you name it. I won't say they weren't good for their time, but they're definitely not great.

Man, this thread must've been started by people who derive self-esteem by putting down others. Leeches.</B>
Actually, this thread wasn't started by people, but rather by just a single person who really doesn't care about this one anymore.


<B>Honestly. Is there anything before FFVII that is truly superior, or do you just hate it for some reason?</B>
Yes, in fact there is. I think both FFIV and FFVI are both superior than FFVII. Since I believe that both of these games are better than this one, that would automatically mean that they are IMO superior to this game. Also, I think I've very well described why I hate the game time and time again.


<B>I've read this stupid thread. It repeats itself, and every time one perfectly good, reasonable point is made, it is often responded to with an absurd, unprovable point.</B>
Ha ha, notice how he says it's a stupid thread because we are bashing a game he likes! I just find that hilarious. I mean seriously, it is rather hysterical to see how FFVII fans react when someone says something bad about the game they love. I do not see this with any other game. It's gotten to a level of being straight ridiculous with FFVII. Also, notice how a vast majority of the good reasonable points are made by us, instead of the fans that claim the game to be so great? And then, these good points are very often responded to by FFVII fans with absurd, unprovable points? Believe it or not, that's the truth.


<B>No one's going to change their mind about the game because of this thread, unless they're asswipes who want to fit in somewhere.</B>
I know that my views of the game changed a little when I started reading the thread. Granted, I still didn't think the game was that great at the time, but I now have more reason to believe that FFVII is not that good of a game from reading all my posts and others like it. So I guess you are calling me an asswipe because my view of the game has changed. It's not really that it changed, but rather strengthened. Also, somewhere in this thread, I recall someone saying that their view of the game changed after reading through here.


<B>So, what's your goal here? Just to bash the game pointlessly?</B>
I know you are probably asking Prak that, but since him and I are together on this, I can still answer this like you are talking to me as well. I'm not trying to bash the game pointlessly. But, it has been close to that ever since the thread opened. With the exception of Durendal, he is pretty much the only one giving a respectable debate, AND he isn't overreacting about the whole situation. My goal is to show my opinions of the game, and when someone agrees otherwise, I try to have a debate with them. That's what people do in a debate; they don't agree on the same subject, so they try to see who has the stronger points.


<B>I'd give my explanation as to why FFVII is AWESOME, but all you would do is stick it up your ass then claim that every point I make, no matter how true it is, is invalid because of the shit you make up.</B>
I'll interpret that as:

There isn't much I can say against these two guys, so I'll pretend to have an explanation so I won't have to look like an idiot when I can't come up with something credible.

If that's not true, then let's see this explanation of yours. Seems like most of the FFVII fans who have posted in here bash us a little bit, say we are wrong, and then never return because they don't want their feelings to be hurt. I'm not saying that you can't come up with something good, but until I actually see it, then I will say that you don't have anything useful to say.

Well, yes actually FFVI was a great game, and definetly better than FFVII...but as you said (smokey) we're tlaking about FFVII, and same goes to you Nabeshin.

Nabeshin, if you're just praising the game for the sake of it start a new thread...but this is to debate the good aspects and bad aspects of the game.

As for the chocobo thing smoey, i totally hear you. it took me almost 4 horus to breed a gold chocobo! Well, it's worth the effort (because chocobos rule!) But other than that, yes it is one of the most annoying sidequests ever.

but had emerald and ruby weapon been EASY...i dont think i would have enjoyed much of the game

yes the game is very easy to beat, but like i said before, the sidequests are nice and hard. That's what i look foward to in the game to be quite honest...Gold saucer, Chocobos, Master materia, and the Weapons, and perhaps some of the limit breaks (Highwind, Chaos, Omnislash...)

Well, to say yet another bit, i believe they released the walkthrough because other people were getting credit off of their game. If you know what I mean, other people were making walkthroughs and being credited for making it of previous games. Example, if you type in Final Fantasy VI Walkthrough, you'll get hundreds of walkthroughs...They just decided to make yet another friggen money gimmick, but hey blame squaresoft for that one.

and the walkthrough idea was good in my opinion. You know, there are those who can't really play the game without a walkthrough...some people want to learn every secret without a walkthrough. It was just offered; it wasn't forced onto you. You didn't have to buy it if ya didn't want to..

I'm going to show you yet more views on my materia system arguement though...

The materia system was unique. Yes you will respond saying Just cuz its unique doesnt mean its good. But it actually was good. It wasn't the same damn thing learn magic as you go along. It wasn't like someone was SPECIAL for their magic...all in all just about anybody could use magic. It wasn't limited...I hated especially in Final Fantasy 9 ( i know im jumping ahead but.. ) where only Garnett and that lil chick could use summons. That PISSED ME OFF, cuz my favorite team was: Zidane, Freya, and Vivi

but noo...oh well. that summoner shit in Final Fantasy X worked well because, although only one person could use it, it took the place of your whole party...It was yet again different. and it worked. Same thing in FFX-2.

in FFVIII ( which in my opinion was ehh... ) the ummons were quite close to waht they are in FFVII. FFVII was the different version..

okay imma finish this post up cuz my teachers comin around to check what we've been doin ( never trust high school kids. )

Well, to say yet another bit, i believe they released the walkthrough because other people were getting credit off of their game. If you know what I mean, other people were making walkthroughs and being credited for making it of previous games. Example, if you type in Final Fantasy VI Walkthrough, you'll get hundreds of walkthroughs...They just decided to make yet another friggen money gimmick, but hey blame squaresoft for that one.</B>
The strategy guide was released to bring in as much money as possible for the game. I mean, when people heard about the fact that you could buy a book to help you with the game, it made more people want to go out and purchase both items. Basically, more money for Square, and also more popularity for the game.


<B>and the walkthrough idea was good in my opinion. You know, there are those who can't really play the game without a walkthrough...some people want to learn every secret without a walkthrough. It was just offered; it wasn't forced onto you. You didn't have to buy it if ya didn't want to..</B>
But I'm just saying, that you do not need a walkthrough to finish the game. Even so, there aren't any huge rewards that I found necessary to use the strategy guide for. Also, whether you remember or not, or actually experienced it, the strategy guide was almost forced upon you with the game. When I went in to buy the game, which was shortly after it was released, the clerks were constantly asking if I wanted to buy the game and the strategy guide. When I finally picked up a copy of the game, that is the only thing I wanted to buy. But when I got to the counter, the clerk would ask me several times if I wanted to buy the strategy guide as well. Now I know that sometimes the clerks will ask you about purchasing the strategy guide with the game, but it seemed like it was their absolute mission to sell the guide also no matter what.


<B>The materia system was unique. Yes you will respond saying Just cuz its unique doesnt mean its good. But it actually was good. It wasn't the same damn thing learn magic as you go along. It wasn't like someone was SPECIAL for their magic...all in all just about anybody could use magic.</B>
Read my previous comment about the Materia System in the huge post.

To anyone who thinks FF7 sucks can BITE ME. I do not care who you are that game is the best game I have ever played. Mabey it isn't the game, mabey it is the idiot who is so dense she does not relize the shear genius behind the Final Fantasy Series.could it be that you only like stupid games like Seaman to the point you cannot comprehend a decent game. The FF series is the greatest thing my eyes have ever beheld. So I bid anyone who dislikes and insults FF7 ,or any FF, congradulations you are officialy ON MY LIST UNTIL I DIE! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Hahahaha

You've made my day. I won't bite you, however, because I've heard that the stupidity of you prepubescent AOLer types can be contagious.

Be sure to put me close to the top of your list because I not only say that FFVII sucks ass, but also that you are one of the most pathetic examples of drooling idiocy ever to cross my path.

To anyone who thinks FFVII rules can BITE ME. I do not care who you are, that game is the worst game I have ever played. Maybe it isn't the game, maybe it is the idiot who is so dense that she does not realize the shear stupidity behind the Final Fantasy series. Could it be that you only like great games like Chrono Trigger to the point you cannot comprehend a bad game? The FF series is the worst thing my eyes have ever beheld. So I bid anyone who likes and praises FFVII, or any Final Fantasy, congradulations. You are officially ON MY LIST UNTIL I DIE! :mad:

Well Final Fantasy is a neat game. I like it. Whatever...it's all speculation. I personally enjoy the game and i've said why a couple of times. Unfortunately, you do not see it in the same light as I do, which is perfectly alright. Everyone's different.

But I'll make one last detailed explanation about the game before I give up trying to explain those who are not ready to change their views.

Alright You all claim the materia system is wack. I hold different values for what 'magic' is. This is yet the first game to explain what magic is and provide and explanation.

To further that point, it is also the first game to offer an explanation to why there are monsters. Still the first game of course.

Now, after making things someone logical although not real, it creates a world that's more diverse. Games at the time had many towns but many of them were the same. Most of them were just rnadom towns. This did not hold true for Final Fantasy 7.

it was way more diverse in that sense: For example Wutai represented a more japanese state of mind obviously, and heavily emphasized fighting. Materia ... hence yuffie.

Then you had Cosmo Canyon which was what we would call more of a college. It was a place to interact with the earth more mentally and spiritually and to gain wisdom and knowledge of the earth..hence Red XIII

Then you had Midgar. That was the city type city with rebellions and a tyrannical government. Shinra. From there you had your plot twist insanely.. At first your mission was to get money. Through many twists your at the end of the game with saving the world. Much character development. Oh yeah the cities!

Costa Del Sol...A vacation resort type city. It was rather interesting, as you could buy your own house ( which was rathe rpointless, but at the end of the game most of us had around 3,000,000 gil, so what the hell!)

Then you had Bone Village. Excavation. Anyway yuo get the point!

so the whole set up of the WORLD was nice. It was cool...You had full control of the camera angles. Nice 3-D.

Now in the game you weren't limited to just the gronud. There was Rivers, Under the Ocean, ON the ocean, In the Air, and on the ground! You could cover mountains...simply beautiful.

Now as I understand there was another game with improved graphics at the time. But from what i've heard the actual gameplay was not nearly as good as Final Fantasy 7. Final Fantasy 7 Also has a replay factor. You can replay it...and still like it. As well as uncover new secrets and learn new things.

To add to that, there were lots of sidequests. That comes standard with any half-decent game though. Know what I mean?

And the character failure was nice. I was rather impressed that they would take that big of a risk (Creators of FF7) and makae Cloud nothing but a failure and a clone

the fact that sephiroth had access was neat too. It helped story development a lot.

And the idea of Sephiroth was just nice. He started off good leader of Soldier. But he learned about who he is. i liked it!

anywho i'm off. See ya later!

I do not care who you are, that game is the worst game I have ever played.

That's a pretty radical statement. That implies that FFVII is worse than Kings of the Beach, which is a volleyball game for NES that has very few controls and can be fun for all of 5 minutes.

However, I will go ahead and assume you were exaggerating.

More than one of you have more or less said that the materia system devalued the characters. True, it took away the uniqueness of character abilities, but it enabled me to select my characters the way I always wanted to: how much I like them. I thought RedXIII was really cool, and I got to use him for no reason other than that. I'm not saying that made FFVII a better game or anything, but I find it forgiveable. And if you compare the materia system to FFIX's system, which forces you to equip weak piece of crap weapons and armor until you learn abilities, it really isn't that bad. I know that it's still possible for you not to like it, and you have good reasons not to like it, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad system. Plus, as I said earlier, some games are only as fun as you make them. RPGs just aren't meant for you to go through and do nothing but go through the plot and beat the game. You're supposed to explore voluntarily and look for stuff to do outside the plot. If you play FFVII that way, then it's not so much of a mundane, easy game. Finally, I really think the one thing that kills FFVII's story is the ending. It just didn't tie up enough loose ends. I still am not quite sure if your whole quest was a big waste of time or not. But what you (Smokey) said about the plot just being a straight line, I just disagree with. What about the two times when Cloud gives Sephiroth the black materia? Is that not a "bump" in the storyline? (no, that is NOT a rhetorical question; I want someone to answer it) Even if FFVII wasn't the best game ever made by any means, I still think it was at least a decent game. Oh and to all of you FFVII die hard fans, please stop the name-calling. It really makes it hard for me to express a point with you shouting "YOU ARE STUPID IT IS A GOOD GAME!!!!!"

Wow, such hate, such prejudice. So many things. A thread that has caused people to drown in their own hate. Never have I seen such behavior over a game. I guess it only proves how emotionally provacative the game is. ...it moves me so... I cannot describe it with words...

That's a pretty radical statement. That implies that FFVII is worse than Kings of the Beach, which is a volleyball game for NES that has very few controls and can be fun for all of 5 minutes.

However, I will go ahead and assume you were exaggerating."
Please tell me you are joking? That post was direct sarcasm at the one SageNashae made previously.

Nastradamus, you make some pretty good points about the world itself. They did actually do a pretty good job of characterizing the different regions, but there was one problem with it: lack of scale. It seemed like a very small world when your characters and vehicles appear so large on it. That's just a minor defect though.

I presume that when you mentioned another game that had better graphics but inferior gameplay, you're referring to my earlier statement about the superior FMVs in Blood Omen. Its gameplay was very different than FFVII's because there is no transition into battle, you maintain full motion, and it maintains tactical depth. I would not call it inferior in any way. Not to mention the fact that it had 100 secrets hidden in the world that could take a very long time to find. I've even heard reports that the main storyline alone can take 100+ hours to finish. I don't know about that for sure because I have yet to finish it. It's not really a game that you replay, but one that you spend a very, very long time playing.

Another thing that was better about Blood Omen is how you could go back to the menu and view the FMVs you've already seen. I really suggest you try to find that game, play it for a few days, and then tell me which you think is better. Frankly, I can't think of a single way FFVII tops it.

One thing.

The weapons were not hard to beat.

Getting to the point that you could beat them was nothing more than a timesink. It required no skill. It required monotonous levelling. That's it.

Altogether i just couldnt just be bothred to read the thread, no offence, to ya but Ive never played the game, i want to but i dont have the money to buy it :'(

One thing.

The weapons were not hard to beat.

Getting to the point that you could beat them was nothing more than a timesink. It required no skill. It required monotonous levelling. That's it.

Nice point.

This thread si big.

Please tell me you are joking? That post was direct sarcasm at the one SageNashae made previously.

Oh.... Sorry, didn't see that one. My bad.

lol, crazy, 17 pages of nothing but flaming. ok, some of you have a point about the game, but for those of you who were saying that a game should be challenging, here is my answer. some people dont want brain numbing, or not even slightly complicated games like the zelda seires. thats whats so cool about FF7, it is easy to foreshadow the sotryline, but also has some plot twists that you would, or might, not have expected. if you were playing the game for the first time, and no one had ever told you about anything that happened in the game, and you could even guess that Aries was gonna be killed by Seph before she does, then i wouldn't really belive you. the way your describing the story/plot line is like its a book that you can open, read the first 4 chapters then know everything that will happen in the rest of it. ok here, answer this then if you think that i havent defended it properly yet. if FF7 is such a crappy game, why is it a greatist hits game? just something for the flamers to think about

ok here, answer this then if you think that i havent defended it properly yet. if FF7 is such a crappy game, why is it a greatist hits game? just something for the flamers to think about
Just because a game reaches the "Greatest Hits" status doesn't mean that it is necessarily a great/good game. There are a lot of games that have reached this status, and most are better than FFVII IMO.

Nastradamus, you make some pretty good points about the world itself. They did actually do a pretty good job of characterizing the different regions, but there was one problem with it: lack of scale. It seemed like a very small world when your characters and vehicles appear so large on it. That's just a minor defect though.

I presume that when you mentioned another game that had better graphics but inferior gameplay, you're referring to my earlier statement about the superior FMVs in Blood Omen. Its gameplay was very different than FFVII's because there is no transition into battle, you maintain full motion, and it maintains tactical depth. I would not call it inferior in any way. Not to mention the fact that it had 100 secrets hidden in the world that could take a very long time to find. I've even heard reports that the main storyline alone can take 100+ hours to finish. I don't know about that for sure because I have yet to finish it. It's not really a game that you replay, but one that you spend a very, very long time playing.

Another thing that was better about Blood Omen is how you could go back to the menu and view the FMVs you've already seen. I really suggest you try to find that game, play it for a few days, and then tell me which you think is better. Frankly, I can't think of a single way FFVII tops it.

Yes, but, that's hardly fair. Since Blood Omen pwns all. :D

That's true. And I noticed something the last time I loaded it up. There's a scene with Kain walking through flames that absolutely asskicks the overrated Sephiroth in the fire scene. I never caught that before.

All iwant to say is FF7 rules and people who hate it dont like it cause they find it hard and cant complete it so they dont like it it was even said in a mag that alot of people dont like cause of that i know some of my mates dont like it for that reason.well thats there fault

All iwant to say is FF7 rules and people who hate it dont like it cause they find it hard and cant complete it so they dont like it it was even said in a mag that alot of people dont like cause of that i know some of my mates dont like it for that reason.well thats there fault
It's official.

This is the most pathetic statement I've heard about FFVII being a good game.

Well, it's on the list at any rate. We've seen some pretty bad ones before now, though.

All iwant to say is FF7 rules and people who hate it dont like it cause they find it hard and cant complete it so they dont like it it was even said in a mag that alot of people dont like cause of that i know some of my mates dont like it for that reason.well thats there fault

Did you even read my first post?

It's official.

This is the most pathetic statement I've heard about FFVII being a good game.

I disagree. I think TifaMartialArtist said some more pathetic things. Remember, she called you stupid and kept repeating that it made the most money. Well, it's a close race. They both had atrocious grammar. "there fault" .....

In my opinion Final Fantasy 7 is the greatest game ive ever played. (and i have played many many games), the only thing i have a problem with is its graphics they were good at the time of release (1997) but now i'd love to see a re-make with Final Fantasy 10 style graphics, as would many other fans out there.

Well, if all you've ever played are the derivative sports games or platformers, then yes, I could understand you saying that.

But as I already said in another thread: Games like Valkyrie Profile, Legend of Legaia, Legend of Dragoon and Star Ocean 2: The Second Story all pwn the living hell out of FF7.

:(

Seriously, people need to just wake up.

In my opinion Final Fantasy 7 is the greatest game ive ever played. (and i have played many many games), the only thing i have a problem with is its graphics they were good at the time of release (1997) but now i'd love to see a re-make with Final Fantasy 10 style graphics, as would many other fans out there.
Ok, so that's your opinion. Now, let's see you come up with some evidence or some good information to back up your statement, instead of just saying it's the greatest and then running away.

Wow, I think this thread was here when I was real active lol...Anyway I say it is exellent, mostly because of its exellent and in depth story...It left alot of things open and thus, has had (more like is having) multiple spin offs of it...I say it was the first RPG that I played that gave me freedom some what, I mean on disk three you can go around towns and race and play little games, let alone fight 3 of the 5 weapons, I reall might be going in circles but I dont know what made me love it, but it has had me hooked for over 7 years

And the cycle continues...

When are people going to realize this thread isn't about whether they like FFVII or not. It's about whether it's good or not. Just stating what you like about it is not making a case for quality, thus it makes for useless posts.

To anyone who thinks FFVII rules can BITE ME. I do not care who you are, that game is the worst game I have ever played. Maybe it isn't the game, maybe it is the idiot who is so dense that she does not realize the shear stupidity behind the Final Fantasy series. Could it be that you only like great games like Chrono Trigger to the point you cannot comprehend a bad game? The FF series is the worst thing my eyes have ever beheld. So I bid anyone who likes and praises FFVII, or any Final Fantasy, congradulations. You are officially ON MY LIST UNTIL I DIE! :mad:

OK, Smokey, cool it a bit, OK.

FFVII is not the best game ever, but it's my favorite(^_^).

And the cycle continues...

When are people going to realize this thread isn't about whether they like FFVII or not. It's about whether it's good or not. Just stating what you like about it is not making a case for quality, thus it makes for useless posts.

Yup, exactly. Judged by today's standards, FFVII sucks, but I still like it alot. It's a great game for me, no matter what anyone says. ^_^ FFVII rules.
Thank ya. BTW, don't flame me for this because it's what I think and no one has to share this opinion with me.

These points may have been mentioned before but *shrugs*

FF7 was an experiment for Squaresoft, they were working on a new system, with new graphics, so a complete re-design of everything would have been an enourmous task, that is why i believe the comand interface is the same as the earlier FF's.

Yes the limit system does have the one downside mentioned in the first post, and in ff6 the desperation attack was simillar, but the idea of using the damage recieved to power a ' super' attack i think was new and innoative ( i cannot think of any other game at that time that used this principle)

As for the Music, i think it comes down to preference again, but i have to stress this FF7 was on a new system and a totaly different format for Squaresoft (CD, not Cartridge)

And for the materia system, it was designed to make your characters more versatile, so that you could either split the 'jobs' ( healer, summoner etc..) between your party or have each one able to hold their own if the other 2 were Ko'd

Ok so the story wasn't perfect, but i'll say again FF7 was an experiment for a new system, possibly an unfinished experiment ( I have heard that FF7 was delayed twice). and there are weaker storylines (ff8/ff9)

Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?

as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)

So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.

Although this is now my opininon, if Square had launced FF8 instead of FF7, I would not have bought another Final Fantasy ever...

These points may have been mentioned before but *shrugs*

FF7 was an experiment for Squaresoft, they were working on a new system, with new graphics, so a complete re-design of everything would have been an enourmous task, that is why i believe the comand interface is the same as the earlier FF's.

Yes the limit system does have the one downside mentioned in the first post, and in ff6 the desperation attack was simillar, but the idea of using the damage recieved to power a ' super' attack i think was new and innoative ( i cannot think of any other game at that time that used this principle)

As for the Music, i think it comes down to preference again, but i have to stress this FF7 was on a new system and a totaly different format for Squaresoft (CD, not Cartridge)

And for the materia system, it was designed to make your characters more versatile, so that you could either split the 'jobs' ( healer, summoner etc..) between your party or have each one able to hold their own if the other 2 were Ko'd

Ok so the story wasn't perfect, but i'll say again FF7 was an experiment for a new system, possibly an unfinished experiment ( I have heard that FF7 was delayed twice). and there are weaker storylines (ff8/ff9)

Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?

as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)

So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.

Although this is now my opininon, if Square had launced FF8 instead of FF7, I would not have bought another Final Fantasy ever...

Well said, Kemtach2999.

Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?
I don't know about you, but games are a lot more enjoyable for me when they are too hard instead of too easy. And that point about FFVIII has absolutely nothing to do with FFVII. If Square had decided to make FFVII 'too hard', then that wouldn't keep people from playing FFVIII.


as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)
No, it isn't a defining moment watching the blade go through her back. She didn't even see it coming. There is nothing spectacular about that. It's not like there were anvils or whatever waiting to crush the heads of Cloud and friends if Aeris didn't rush in and sacrifice her life. Palom and Porom <B>had</B> to commit suicide or else all six of them would have perished.


So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.
How many times do I have to tell you guys; FFVII did not bring the Final Fantasy series into the future. The Playstation did, it's that simple. And the only 'merits' you have stated, is that FFVII was an experiment, and that the Materia System was versatile.

FF7 was an experiment for Squaresoft, they were working on a new system, with new graphics, so a complete re-design of everything would have been an enourmous task, that is why i believe the comand interface is the same as the earlier FF's.

Well, they already knew that the Final Fantasy series was a hit, so why wouldn't a complete re-design on a better system work? And most of the interface stays the same throughout the games otherwise the games wouldn't be like Final Fantasy. Thats a classic part of the series and the completely new materia system and many other features worked as well.


Yes the limit system does have the one downside mentioned in the first post, and in ff6 the desperation attack was simillar, but the idea of using the damage recieved to power a ' super' attack i think was new and innoative ( i cannot think of any other game at that time that used this principle)

This WAS a good idea and there wasn't another game that used this at the time (not that I can think anyway) but the only other gaem that I know that uses this system is Dynasty Warriors 2 on the PS2 which was released in 2000. So thats 3 years later!


As for the Music, i think it comes down to preference again, but i have to stress this FF7 was on a new system and a totaly different format for Squaresoft (CD, not Cartridge)

Well music is the same for anything, its up to the listener if they like it, but there was a different range of music in the game.


And for the materia system, it was designed to make your characters more versatile, so that you could either split the 'jobs' ( healer, summoner etc..) between your party or have each one able to hold their own if the other 2 were Ko'd

Yeah, but it was a bit more developed than the simple job system introduced in FFV and later in FFX-2, because you could FULLY customise your character and once you have all the materia customize them to however you want and not have to choose from a preset job list as in FFV.


Ok so the story wasn't perfect, but i'll say again FF7 was an experiment for a new system, possibly an unfinished experiment ( I have heard that FF7 was delayed twice). and there are weaker storylines (ff8/ff9)

This subject has been discussed a lot before, but as well all know the story is unfinished in places and could have been touched up, but I suppose Square might have left it like that for you to make ur own mind up, hence triggering a whole load of topics in forums such as these!


Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?

The game was easy enough to complete without the guide if you jsut simply stuck to the story. But there is no way that you could manage all the secrets without a guide, because how would you know how to breed a gold chocobo without the use of a guide, as constant breeding over and over is enough to drive anyone mad.

And as for wanting to play FF8, I would always try it, even if the game was hard because I like the challenge, but thats my personal view.


as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)

Yes, but her death was vital for the story to progress and Hironobu Sakaguchi introduced this in the game as his mother died during the making of FF6. And no, no other FF game has done this, except Tidus I suppose in FFX.


So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.

Although this is now my opininon, if Square had launced FF8 instead of FF7, I would not have bought another Final Fantasy ever...

I agree compeltely. Hell, I probably wouldn't have even joined these forums or even launched MY site.

Well, they already knew that the Final Fantasy series was a hit, so why wouldn't a complete re-design on a better system work? And most of the interface stays the same throughout the games otherwise the games wouldn't be like Final Fantasy. Thats a classic part of the series and the completely new materia system and many other features worked as well.


Sorry Im not saying it wouldn't work, i just think all things considering there was too much work for Squaresoft to do to get the game released

as for hard over easy, yes I prefer a more challenging game, however im saying if it was too hard, like there was no possible way to beat even Jenova birth without an xplorer cheat cartridge, then perhaps gamers would have been put off FF8, im not saying everyone would ( hardcore FF fans or just hardcore Gamers would have given 8 a chance) just a lot of potential buyers

About FF7 being an experiment. You could say that nearly every FF was an experiment. FF1 was the first RPG Square ever made. FF4 was the first SNES game that Square made. FF5 was the first Square game to have characters with different jobs. FF6 was the only Square game with more than ten characters. The list is endless. FF7 wasn't just different because it was released on a newer system. Square wanted to open its RPG market to more people. To accomplish this, the storyline was made simpler than that of FF6 and it was much easier than the earlier FFs. While I think that this detracted from the game, it brought in a lot more money, so I don't really blame square for that. As for the materia system, I only liked it because you could just put in the characters you like instead of the characters who were good, because every character could be good. One thing that Square did a good job with in FF7 was making the side quests. Yes, I know you can easily make it through the game without doing any of them. But I don't think that really matters. There are some people in this world who just *shudders* don't like to spend 8 hours in a game messing around doing everything you're not supposed to do. I can't understand why, but that's what they think. For those people, the game lets you go through without doing the hard parts. However, if you want to, you can get items and level up so much that you kill bosses in one hit. I know it takes away the challenge, but I personally enjoy doing more damage in the first disc than most people do on the third disc, thus making bosses look like imps from FF1.

They explained in the Final Fantasy series that the Final Fantasy 7 battle system was the same as 6, 5 ,and 4. This knowledge was known already.

um wow....i didnt htink it was that bad............crap.............

FF7 to me is the greatest game of the series.
Yes, I am fangirl of that game too, and of Sephiroth. But that doesn't make me biased. If you wanna flame at me, then you'll get a whole load back.

I like FF7 for these reasons:
Gameplay, graphics, storyline, characters.

Let's put these into subheadings.

Gameplay.

Yes it was simple. But good, and you could choose what magic would suit your character best. You could only equip a certain amount to each character, but that didn't matter to me. Every character was different, and had good limit breaks- Cloud's were strong, not to mention Vincents- Aeris' was basically to heal characters. Summons were good for that game as well. I never got round to using KOTR because I simply didn't want to get hold of it.

Graphics

First game of the series hm? Done well for graphics in its time. Summon sequences looked good, though the quality of the FMV's I wasn't too keen ( Ooh, something I didn't like!. You see, I ain't biased after all xD )


Storyline

People complain about the storyline being simple. They all follow the same thing - love, war, fight a super powered enemy. So why complain?
I like the storyline because I felt that it touched my heart in some places ( I hated how the people of Midgar lived, it's like a 3rd world country on a videogame. Each place and character all had something worthwhile that contributed to the storyline to make it that bit better.

Characters

I hated Yuffie, and not every character was useful to me. Each character had their own unique personality, all based probably on past events. A variation of characters made this game just a little bit better.

There, Im done.

I'd have to say man, thinking that FF7 was bad, well...is bad. the older games (which I have no direspect for) were not that big of a plot goin, the whole crystal thing wasn't bad & I don't have a prob with it. Its just that I think that the direction they took with it was better, istead of giving us the same old crystal story, they gave us somethin more. It wasn't exactly a love story, though there was a bit of a triangle goin on, but nothing major. The villian was fantastic, he was the villian people fell in love with. The reality is, FF7 was like the nirvana of the Final Fantasy series. Though some may disagree & could understand that you are deep in your thoughts & beliefs.Don't dislike me for it, i'm new to this forum & would like to make friends. While i'm at it, have a little dispute.

I'd have to say man, thinking that FF7 was bad, well...is bad. the older games (which I have no direspect for) were not that big of a plot goin, the whole crystal thing wasn't bad & I don't have a prob with it. Its just that I think that the direction they took with it was better, istead of giving us the same old crystal story, they gave us somethin more. It wasn't exactly a love story, though there was a bit of a triangle goin on, but nothing major. The villian was fantastic, he was the villian people fell in love with. The reality is, FF7 was like the nirvana of the Final Fantasy series. Though some may disagree & could understand that you are deep in your thoughts & beliefs.Don't dislike me for it, i'm new to this forum & would like to make friends. While i'm at it, have a little dispute.
ooooh you're gonna get flamed...FFVI was definitely Final Fantasy at it's peak, not FFVII. It's story was better than FFVII's, the magic system was better too...I don't think I should even have to explain myself...

chorns, ur gonna have to, like I said & u quoted, I understand what people are gonna think when I posted what I did, i'm young but not that ignorant, but for the sack of conversation between us, do explain yourself.

lol, yea the sack was intentional, thought it would be funny, but ah....nm, u probably thought it was stupid instead.

maybe it's just me, but I liked the graphics in VI and I liked Espers more than Materia, I also liked how people had their own abilities that did not use up MP. I didn't like materia, it was too simple and made characters way too customizable...

FF7 is a good game becuase you dont know whats going on and understand the story till the very end becuase its constantly changing and has tons of unexpected twists unlike the previous ff games where it was just " we have to save the world and fix the crystals before they go BOOM!!!" and there was sooo much to do that you couldnt get bored and it was more defined on certain things and has sweeter summons and weapons. I think people who complain about it are just complaining cuz they are in denial of how a game can be so good and they are too narrow minded to understand the story and just cant have fun in it or they just are saying they dont like it so they can be different from everyone else.

Sure, there were plot twists, but they were very predictable. Even when I liked the game I thought it went downhill after the first disc ended...I understood the story very well and it was very simple...FFVI was not a the crystals need to be saved and the Kefka is much cooler and villanous than Sephiroth will ever be...The only sweet summon I thought was Alexander, but he's better in other games, so...oh yeah, you call changing the storyline twice was constant? Wow, you must not read books much...About the sidequests, it only took me like 4 hours to figure out and finish the chocobo breeding all on my own(no help), when I went back to see if I had missed anything in the strategy guide I only missed 2 items, a couple of ordinairy potions(no biggie). I beat the hardest enemies(American weapons) in the game on my first try...money was never a problem and being a high enough level was never a problem...it was way too simple...I'm definitely not in denial.

Now chorns, did you actually play the game through without a strategy guide, or beat it using the strategy guide?

What was ur strategy for beating the to american monsters??? and i didnt find the storyline predictable i had no idea aeris was gonna die, cloud was gonna go mental, midgar would get attacked in fact the only thing i could predict taht the b*&@# yuffie was gonna steal everything. and knights of the round kicks alexanders butt and so do all the bahamuts, and typhoon is cool too.

Hey TekkiesUnite118, I jus discovered, & I might sound ignorant in this. I like you man, I wanna be your friend dude. I have seen your other posts & i'm not comin on to you, i'm jus sayin, would be cool if we talked man.

ok im totally confused, twitterpaited and freaked out by this

hehe, i think hes just asking to talk to u, and have u not get the wrong idea, but why would someone have a bad idea about ppl talkin O_o?

im just confused

i would be too...

I'm actually a girl, I jus wanna talk to someone whome iv'e noticed seems interesting. I'm not comin on to you, like I said before. DistantxDreamer was right jus wanna chat is all. Also would like to make some buds on here, i'm new to this forum & site.

Now chorns, did you actually play the game through without a strategy guide, or beat it using the strategy guide?
I have never owned a strategy guide for Final Fantasy VII. I borrowed one once, I just checked to make sure I got everything...So I actually played through the entire game without a guide...I tried everything I could to get everything without it...

I was jus checkin dude, wasn't goin against you, we r all FF fans. But it's pretty sad when a true gamer needs a strategy guide for an RPG. Then again, they wouldn't be a true gamer now would they.

Yup, exactly. Judged by today's standards, FFVII sucks, but I still like it alot. It's a great game for me, no matter what anyone says. ^_^ FFVII rules.
Thank ya. BTW, don't flame me for this because it's what I think and no one has to share this opinion with me.

Not flaming you or anything, but I think video games in general have been going DOWNhill for the past few years. I doubt any of you will agree, but my favorite battle system was FF1's. I thought it was a nice challenge to have to think about ineffectives rather than just hitting A rapidly. Of course, FFIV and FFVI absolutely destroy FF1 in other categories, such as plot, characterization, and ability to buy more than 1 item at once, but I think even since FF1 Square has begun to lose some of its more fun characteristics of games. In my opinion, FF1 was the only FF that was hard enough.

ok.

ok.

Was that in reply to me?

Was that in reply to me?
No. It was to Slavic Wolfram. You musy have posted right before me.

yea, I kow. that last post was pretty retarted huh. But thats one thing I can't stand about people when they play FF & use the guide. Anywho, so is FFVI the only FF you liked, or did you actually like any of them on playstation.

*know*

No, FFVII is the only one I don't like, I like all the others, even FFX-2...FFVI is just my favorite...

oh, ok. I have FFX-2, but not sure if I wanna play it. Seems too Charles Angels to me, tell me about wut was good in it.

The battle system feels arcadey to me, and I like that feeling compared to waiting around to think...it's real time...you gotta be on your feet...plus the being able to switch classes in battle, that was pretty cool and made battle much more interesting...the only bad part is that it was too girly, but that wasn't a big deal...

Yea, like I said, the look of it was Charles Angels.

Yea, like I said, the look of it was Charles Angels.
Oh well, minor flaw in the game...at least my girly and I can play it together...(she likes the game alot)

lol, good for u dude

(& ur girly)

I dunno, I jus added it......

One thing that really made the game for me; Chocobo breeding/racing.
Also i liked the lifestream concept, that when something dies it becomes part of the lifestream and brings life to another being. I also liked how Shinra were heartless enough to refine it into Mako energy. That really pissed me off! Harvesting the dead for the sake of power!
Also, FF7 had possibly the coolest antagonist ever! (Altho his goal was kinda cliche') Also ff7 had an awesome Cid!

I loved the music

FFV's Cid was better. Chocobo breeding was so boring and tedius...

Please anyone who hates this game is mad and i want to damage you very very badly.

I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)

I've played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)

Please anyone who hates this game is mad and i want to damage you very very badly.

I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)

I've played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)

these are the type of posts that make me agree with chorns and prak

I like FF7, but these types of posts make me ashamed to be known with those sort of people :(

Please anyone who hates this game is mad and i want to damage you very very badly.

I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)

I've played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)
please shut up your fanboy rambles, oh yeah...FFIII was really good too...not quite as good as VI, but I enjoyed trying to get a fully equipped onion knight(it was hard though).

Please anyone who hates this game is mad and i want to damage you very very badly.

I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)

I've played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)

I love it when these fanboy twerps make moronic posts like this because it completely reinforces everything I've been saying.

I will take that as a compliment.
Ok maybe i over did it but it is a good game.
Try to be a little lighter on me ok? :-(

I think their are many things that this game could in prove on like one think why oh why are their guns airships and maco reacters and PEOPLE ARE USEING SWoRDS!!!!!

Cloud has a sword that is unweldly and looks like a bucher knife ha!

Yes but you get other more acceptable weopens and swords are cool, its just a game. A bluddy great one at that.

I think their are many things that this game could in prove on like one think why oh why are their guns airships and maco reacters and PEOPLE ARE USEING SWoRDS!!!!!

Cloud has a sword that is unweldly and looks like a bucher knife ha!

Video games aren't supposed to be realistic. I'm sure you all remember perhaps the greatest moment in video game history, in FFIV, when Cid jumps of the airship and blows himself up and still survives somehow. I think THAT was the most awesome Cid.

Video games aren't supposed to be realistic. I'm sure you all remember perhaps the greatest moment in video game history, in FFIV, when Cid jumps of the airship and blows himself up and still survives somehow. I think THAT was the most awesome Cid.
No, sorry, that isn't the greatest moment in video game history. I wouldn't even call it a moment, because there was nothing memorable. And if you remember correctly, Yang does the same thing. He seals a door shut in order to stop the Dwarves from being bombed on, and gets bombarded himself. The main thing that are supposed to be realistic in video games these days are the graphics, but that's a different subject.

No, sorry, that isn't the greatest moment in video game history. I wouldn't even call it a moment, because there was nothing memorable. And if you remember correctly, Yang does the same thing. He seals a door shut in order to stop the Dwarves from being bombed on, and gets bombarded himself. The main thing that are supposed to be realistic in video games these days are the graphics, but that's a different subject.

Ok, I'm really messed up, so IN MY OPINION it is the greatest moment in video game history. And yes, Yang blew himself up too, but he didn't fall thousands of feet afterwards.

the GREATEST MOMENT IN VIDEOGAME HISTORY:
CLoud: ".........."
Aeris: *praying*
Cloud: "........"
Sephiroth: *Descending*
Cloud: *dumb look on his face*
Aeris: *Clueless*
Sephiroth: STAB!!!!!!!

ffvii was so great

the GREATEST MOMENT IN VIDEOGAME HISTORY:
CLoud: ".........."
Aeris: *praying*
Cloud: "........"
Sephiroth: *Descending*
Cloud: *dumb look on his face*
Aeris: *Clueless*
Sephiroth: STAB!!!!!!!

ffvii was so great

I think FF7 is a good game, but...
I will have no sympathy for you when everyone else bombards you with proof that you are completely and utterly wrong, because it's people like you who undermine all of my points.

the GREATEST MOMENT IN VIDEOGAME HISTORY:
CLoud: ".........."
Aeris: *praying*
Cloud: "........"
Sephiroth: *Descending*
Cloud: *dumb look on his face*
Aeris: *Clueless*
Sephiroth: STAB!!!!!!!

ffvii was so great
Why Spermie? Why?

I'm sure we can all accept the fact that spermie is a cold and heartless basterd, and I agree with FF1WithAllThieves.

and the fact that you are younger, it gives me the right to call you an ignorant child.

Who's an ignorant child? Me? I'm 16...

I'm sure we can all accept the fact that spermie is a cold and heartless basterd, and I agree with FF1WithAllThieves.

and the fact that you are younger, it gives me the right to call you an ignorant child.
are you talking to me? Cause I'm older than you, just to let you know.

[QUOTE=SlavicWolfram]I'm sure we can all accept the fact that spermie is a cold and heartless basterdQUOTE]

that is so mean.....i'd be really hurt......if i wasn't so cold and heartless

Man, you guys are all so childish. Learn how to grow up and quit whining that you are an ignorant child and this guy is stupid. Debate about the game, not who is older than the other.

sorry...

but to clarify I was speakin to spermie

I'm also sick and tired of all these FFVII nuts. Most of them don't even provide explanations with why they love this game, or why they think Sephiroth is the greatest villian ever. That pisses me off more than anything.

I like him more than Any villian Ever because he is trying to save the planet, not destroy it. Who doesn't like Demi-God Environmental Activists?

I like him more than Any villian Ever because he is trying to save the planet, not destroy it. Who doesn't like Demi-God Environmental Activists?

this is the problem with the fanboy arguments. "He is trying to save the planet.".....thats its thats the argument they make. a more solid argument would be, "Sephiroth isn't trying to destroy the planet, he's trying to save it, because he believes...(go into detials in the game about how he thinks he's saving the planet and such)"

I like him more than Any villian Ever because he is trying to save the planet, not destroy it. Who doesn't like Demi-God Environmental Activists?
Sephiroth is a villain, you are not supposed to like him...Yet people are always saying that they like Sephiroth...

i think the reason people find him so interesting is becuase he is one of those rare villians whos goal is the same as the heros but his is the extreme of that goal, get what i mean?

But still he's a villain, you are supposed to hate villains, am I not right??

yeah i didnt like him i just found him a little more interesting than other villians becuase of the reason i mentioned above and i think thats what it is with most people who say they like him.

Wait, I've thought about it a bit more, and have come to a reasonable answer.

I like him because he is trying to become the planet.

I enjoyed playing FF7, I had a lot of fun playing it. Isn't that really the point of a game? Doesn't that make it a good game?

=/

Man, you guys are all so childish. Learn how to grow up and quit whining that you are an ignorant child and this guy is stupid. Debate about the game, not who is older than the other.

He's right, you know... Anyway, I don't see why it's really necessary to have this thread going anymore. The FFVII fanboys have pretty much proven the points against FFVII, which is deliciously ironic even though I liked FF7.

yeah i didnt like him i just found him a little more interesting than other villians becuase of the reason i mentioned above and i think thats what it is with most people who say they like him.

Yes, that and the fact that he carries a big pointy sword.

*deep sigh* I am emotionally exhausted with this thread. The debate should have ended about 5 pages ago.

Yes, that and the fact that he carries a big pointy sword.
How's that interesting?? That's what alot of villains do!

^ that was my point :)

FFVI is the best game in the series followed by FFVII then FF2 (with Cecil)

Why did you bother posting that off topic nonsense? We're not talking about what the best games in the series are. Also, your opinion seems a little contradictory considering your rank title says FF7 #1.

I think this thread has been around too long... Does anyone else agree that we just aren't really debating any more? I think someone should close this.

I think this thread has been around too long... Does anyone else agree that we just aren't really debating any more? I think someone should close this.

well every once in a while a new FFVII fanboy will come and try to make their arguments, usually only to be shot down by prak or somoeone else, so its good to leave it open, or close just this one or the IS a good game one, and leave one of them open.

Aeris' death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn't make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party's resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.
There is a big difference between Aeris, and the twins. When Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves, they <I>knew</I> that it was going to stop the wall, and thus, save their companions lives. When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn't <I>know</I> if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn't guarantee the party's safety at all. Palom and Porom's did though.

Just have to say I disagree with you there. I can't comment on Palom & Porom, not having played that game, but, IMO, Aeris doesn't sacrifice herself. She was killed by Sephiroth, certainly, but she definately had no idea it was going to happen until she was skewered.
To my mind, to sacrifice yourself, you have to consciously be aware that you are going to die - for example Yuna and her guardians were (prior to Tidus' tantrums on the subject) prepared to die to bring the calm.

*edit* looking for a FFVII true sacrifice? - Cait Sith in the Temple of the Ancients. yes, a different one almost immediately appears, (worse luck!) but still!! he/she/it (delete as necessary!) died so that Cloud and Co. could retrieve the materia. Pity "ol' yellow head" then hands it over to Sephiroth, but there ya go!

Anyhow you look at it, Cloud and the rest had a good enough reason to go after Sephiroth at that point - how about that World-destroying materia he's just gotten Cloud to unwittingly hand over? I'd say that was a better reason to go after Sephiroth than Aeris being killed.


I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it's a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you.

It's just irritating, that Materia that's useful also has negative effects on your HP/Strength. IMO, the whole idea of learning/acquiring new skills/spells etc. should make you stronger, not make you more vulnerable.

I wholeheartedly agree with whoever's been saying how easy the game is. It's certainly a helluva lot less challenging, and a lot more linear/straightforward than FFVIII. I think the only two titles in the series that are possibly easier than FFVII are FFIX and X-2, both of which I was also disappointed with. But I actually felt compelled to carry on playing them through to the end (for better or worse!) to see the storyline through to the finish. I don't have that feeling with FFVII - the only reason I'm carrying on playing is so Advent Children makes sense. Thank Christ they're making the movie, 'cause I've seen the end FMV's for the game, and, to be perfectly honest, they don't seem to finish the story off, or explain what the characters' lives would be like after the game ends, apart from Nanaki, who obviously has offspring however many years later.


I'm also sick and tired of all these FFVII nuts. Most of them don't even provide explanations with why they love this game, or why they think Sephiroth is the greatest villain ever. That pisses me off more than anything.

Ditto. Maybe if I was playing the game when it first came out, my opinions would be different, but nowadays, I think FFVII's mediocre at best, and certainly incredibly overrated.

Oh boy, I just started reading all through the first page and just couldn't read anymore. I'll just give my short brief opinion.

FF7 was my first, and I will never forget all the experiences it gave me. I still have them and will therefore make me simply unjustifiably biased towards it. I agree with most of the criticisms on the first page. It has its flaws, it's certainly not perfect. The story... is average I'd say looking at it now and comparing it to previous FFs (mind you I've only played VI out of the pre VII games). I'm also shallow when it comes to graphics. If VI had the same graphics as VII, I'd say VI is probably better (I say probably due to my biased first time experiences with VII). No doubt, VI is a very good game.

Some of you say that the story is linear and doesn't require you to think. Hey, what if someone likes the game because of that? What if they like the complete customization of all characters? What if they don't want to think too much or go out of their way to find more about the story? Does it make them have bad taste? I haven't really thought about it to be honest. I don't know what I like, I just know that when I like something, I like it. Probably a large part of me liking FFVII is the whole first time thing. Can I provide specific evidence and points that prove that I like it? Nope. Don't think I can. Why? Because I can't explain why I like something. What someone considers good, other people may think otherwise. I just know that I liked it when I played it. I haven't bothered with thinking about whether I like it or not ever since.

X: "FF7 is the greatest game ever!"
Y: "Why do you think that?"
X: "Because of the gameplay, storyline, materia..." etc
Y: "Yeah... but they all sucked"
X: "But I liked them!"
Y: "Well I didn't. Have you played FFI - VI? Or any other RPGs?"
X: "Yeah but I didn't like them as much..."
Y: "Why not?
X: "Because I just didn't like them compared to FF7."
Y: "You can't provide any evidence can you?"
X: "There's no point arguing! I can't explain why I like something."
Y: "You can't back up anything you say. FF7 nutters like you annoy me."
X: "Well I'm sorry I can't explain why I like it, I just do!"

And er, it can just continue from there. People are different. People like different things. You can debate all the good and bad points you want. They'll only be good and bad to you. Others may like all the points you consider bad and hate all the points you consider good.

The more pressing questions would be why you think the "evidence" you brought up makes you think the game is bad, and you simply can't debate that without ending up accusing the others of having bad taste or some other personal remark.

Yes, there really is no point arguing. It's not just an excuse or some scapegoat. It's true nothing that's being said will change anyone's mind (or they might, depending on the circumstances on how one ended up liking or disliking the game).

Carrying on with letters:

A: "Why do you like S"
B: "Because of X, Y and Z"
A: "X, Y and Z are rubbish compared of R, T and U"
B: "That's what you think. I think X, Y and Z are better than R, T and U"
A: "Well why do you think X, Y and Z are better than R, T and U?"
B: "Because of C, D and E"
A: "Well C, D and E are rubbish because of F, G and H, and I will back that up with points I, J and K"
B: "I will counter your I, J and K with points L, M and N"
A: "How can you like L, M and N more than I, J and K?"
B: "Because it's what I like"
A: "Why?"
B: "Because of O, P and Q!"

Which furthers my point on why arguing is pointless. It's simply boils down to personal preference. But continue debating, arguing and (bashing) as much as it pleases you if any of you feel it will somehow actually do something.

FFVII was and still is my favorite FF. That does not mean by any means that it is the best. When you're only dealing with factual information, FFIV and FFVI come on top of the FF games. Perhaps the main reason that people say FFVII is the best of the series is because they haven't played 1-6. It might be because the PS-X was just such a huge jump up from the SNES. One of the reasons for the worsening of the quality was that Square was trying to expand the audience by marketing and making the game simpler. Ask any person who played 1-6 before FFVII and you will hear that that detracted from the quality. The inexplicable thing about FFVII is why the ending is so terrible. I have not yet heard anyone create a theory that made sense about the ending, and I'm pretty sure that's because the game just doesn't end properly. Why Square would leave so many loose ends is beyond me.

Actually, when you are dealing with factual information, FFV and FFVI are the best.

[QUOTE=FF1WithAllThieves] The inexplicable thing about FFVII is why the ending is so terrible. I have not yet heard anyone create a theory that made sense about the ending, and I'm pretty sure that's because the game just doesn't end properly. [QUOTE]

I remember seeing something explaining it, if I find it I will paste the link.


EdiT: Screw the link

EXPLAINING THE ENDING

Final Fantasy 7 has a VERY open ended ending as it were. This is my attempt to explain it. This is probably the hardest question to answer as much of my theory is based on supposition rather than hard facts. Even combing the script doesn't yield much of a definite explanation. But based on what has gone before, I think this is a reasonable interpretation.

So understanding the ending depends really on how you regard the significance of the death of Aeris and the extent of the powers she and Sephiroth possessed. It also requires some thought as to the symbolism of the game and the true meaning of Midgar.

In my opinion Aeris only died in a physical sense when Sephiroth stabbed her.
She was an Ancient and possessed of tremendous powers. It is arguable that she actually wanted to die physically so her spiritual self could merge with the
lifestream and heal the planet. In fact Bugenhagen pretty much says this when they take him to the Shrine where she was killed.

Bugenhagen: "Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand again Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear."

Sephiroth's physical body spends the WHOLE game in the great North Cave. It is only his psychic self our heroes encounter until the end. Sephiroth's plan was to use meteor to inflict a wound upon the planet, the life stream would rush to that spot, he would absorb it all and become godlike.

Once Sephiroth dies at the end, Meteor heads for Midgar. Midgar is arguably the "wound" of the planet all along. Characters throughout the game talk of the cries of the planet growing stronger in the years Midgar/Shinra have been
sucking Mako out of the planet. Remember early in the game the only place that flowers grow in Midgar is in Aeris church. With the glimpse of Aeris we see in the final moments it is implied that her consciousness had merged with the life stream and the combined power of Holy and Meteor generates enough force for the corruption of Midgar to be healed.

This is maybe what the ancients meant by the Promised Land, a place where the life stream and the physical world meet and create paradise. So again arguably Aeris does "reincarnate" at the end as we see Midgar ablaze with flowers. She undoubtedly had the power to live on is a non-physical form, and maybe that what Cloud meant when he says, "I think we can see her again" in the final cinema."

Why bother? It's still based on speculation. And no matter what interpretation gets attached, it will remain crappy because there's no resolution for the characters.

Actually, when you are dealing with factual information, FFV and FFVI are the best.

[Edit] That might be the case for most people, but like I said, it just ends up depending on what one would like. No mattter what facts there may be about those games, some people just won't like them. There really is no best or worst. Hence, arguing is pointless.

That made zero sense.

I thought it made negative sense.

*sigh* When are these people going to learn that their "It's only your opinion" defense doesn't work? I'm sick of seeing it three times every page.

If you wish to see it as a form of an argument then do so, but that's your mistake. It's not an argument defending FF7 to be a good game. You talk as if there are certain rules and formulas that make a good game, and generally there are. FF7 doesn't have some of them, so to some, it makes it a bad game. But you must realize, that some people just happen to like certain things that others don't.

So what if people happen to prefer a linear storyline. If they like a linear storyline where they don't have to find things out for themselves, then that's what they like. So therefore, to them it makes it a good game.

I've seen the defences given for FF7, and they've been replied to with people's own experience of the game and what they thought of it, and that's their opinion of it. The person giving the defence likes the game because of that, but they can't explain why they like it. You can't explain specifically why you don't like it, you just happen to like certain things more than other things.

Now I just have to wonder if you've failed to comprehend anything in the thread or if you're just joining the bullshitters club in trying to say something enough times that it'll become true. We've provided plenty of hard facts against the game's quality, regardless of opinion. There have been arguments made against aspects of the game that the people arguing have acknowledged that they actually liked, so you're completely and totally incorrect.

Let's just something clear here. I'm not here to "defend" FF7 against any so called "attacks" that are made against it. I've already said I find debating about games pointless. Any game for that matter. I don't debate about if a game is good or bad, since everyone has their own opinion on what makes a good or bad game.

All the "hard facts" about game quality apply, whether they make the game good or bad. However, I am not wrong. It comes down to opinion. So there are so called rules as to what makes a good game. If a game doesn't follow some of those rules, it supposedly lowers the quality of the game,. Those rules apply since the majority of people agree on them. But when it comes down to individuals, they all have their own likes and dislikes. However, you're measuring their opinions on what you consider makes a good game.

What you can't seem to understand is that is it down to opinion on whether a game is good or not. All the "hard facts" you've provided wouldn't sway a person who likes the game. They like the game, and it is good for them, regardless of what supposed evidence is brought against it. The evidence proving a game is bad, only works if other people agree. Therefore, it's not evidence. It's just what the majority think.

The story is linear. Everything is told to you so you don't need to work anything out. It doesn't require you to think. The limit system is flawed. The materia system allows any character to be changed into anything in battle.... and whatever else has been brought up in this thread. They're all present, yet why do all people still like the game? Because they like it. Their own opinion transcends anything that's been stated.

You seem to want some argument giving evidence and facts opposing the things that go against the game. To me, that's pointless like I've proven in my first post in this thread. It's simply down to opinion. There is no evidence as to what makes a good or bad game. The quality of a game is purely subjective to the individual, despite what the majority think, regardless of the supposed "rules" there are. It's entirely possible a game follows all the rules and special formulae as to what you think makes a good game, yet there will be people who won't like it, despite the game having no "evidence" against it.

These types of arguments will go nowhere until you start to discuss the underlying subject. What makes a good game. That is the real question, and there is no answer since everyone has their own opinion as to what makes a good game. And again, therefore, arguing or debating is pointless.

Final Fantasy VII is the best game ever. I started playing it at 7 years old and i am still hooked. I have finished the storyline but i still haven't beaten the 2 weapons. The ending was well worth it and it was the best gaming Experience EVER!

Final Fantasy VII is the best game ever. I started playing it at 7 years old and i am still hooked. I have finished the storyline but i still haven't beaten the 2 weapons. The ending was well worth it and it was the best gaming Experience EVER!
Wow, um, maybe you should read the entire thread...

Let's just something clear here. I'm not here to "defend" FF7 against any so called "attacks" that are made against it. I've already said I find debating about games pointless. Any game for that matter. I don't debate about if a game is good or bad, since everyone has their own opinion on what makes a good or bad game.

All the "hard facts" about game quality apply, whether they make the game good or bad. However, I am not wrong. It comes down to opinion. So there are so called rules as to what makes a good game. If a game doesn't follow some of those rules, it supposedly lowers the quality of the game,. Those rules apply since the majority of people agree on them. But when it comes down to individuals, they all have their own likes and dislikes. However, you're measuring their opinions on what you consider makes a good game.

What you can't seem to understand is that is it down to opinion on whether a game is good or not. All the "hard facts" you've provided wouldn't sway a person who likes the game. They like the game, and it is good for them, regardless of what supposed evidence is brought against it. The evidence proving a game is bad, only works if other people agree. Therefore, it's not evidence. It's just what the majority think.

The story is linear. Everything is told to you so you don't need to work anything out. It doesn't require you to think. The limit system is flawed. The materia system allows any character to be changed into anything in battle.... and whatever else has been brought up in this thread. They're all present, yet why do all people still like the game? Because they like it. Their own opinion transcends anything that's been stated.

You seem to want some argument giving evidence and facts opposing the things that go against the game. To me, that's pointless like I've proven in my first post in this thread. It's simply down to opinion. There is no evidence as to what makes a good or bad game. The quality of a game is purely subjective to the individual, despite what the majority think, regardless of the supposed "rules" there are. It's entirely possible a game follows all the rules and special formulae as to what you think makes a good game, yet there will be people who won't like it, despite the game having no "evidence" against it.

These types of arguments will go nowhere until you start to discuss the underlying subject. What makes a good game. That is the real question, and there is no answer since everyone has their own opinion as to what makes a good game. And again, therefore, arguing or debating is pointless.


That simply isn't true. Take a game like Halo. It's a very, very shallow game with nothing to it other than "shoot the bad guys." People still like it for some strange reason, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a shallow game that is extremely overrated. Also, the quality of the story isn't just a matter of opinion. The ending is incomplete and there were many loose ends left untied. You can't possibly argue that that's a good thing or that it's just an opinion.

Did you even read Rabid Monkey's first post? Many people who post in this thread haven't.

That simply isn't true. Take a game like Halo. It's a very, very shallow game with nothing to it other than "shoot the bad guys." People still like it for some strange reason, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a shallow game that is extremely overrated. Also, the quality of the story isn't just a matter of opinion. The ending is incomplete and there were many loose ends left untied. You can't possibly argue that that's a good thing or that it's just an opinion.

Did you even read Rabid Monkey's first post? Many people who post in this thread haven't.

I read the first 200 posts.

You just proved my point there too. Halo doesn't really have anything to it (not that I've played it, I'm just going by what you're saying), yet people like it. They really really like it. True, is doesn't change the fact that it's a shallow game, but since so many people like it, then you can't say it's a bad game. Well maybe for yourself you can, but for the many people that like it, it doesn't make it a bad game. Therefore, whether it is good or bad is down to opinion.

As for FF7's ending, I'm guessing a lot of people think it's a bad ending. You're saying people can't possibly argue that it's a good ending? Well what if they did like it? What if they liked the open ending and really thought it was a good one? Since you think the complete opposite, you really want some good reason and explanation for this, but I don't think you will get one, simply because when it come's down to it, it'll be what a person likes or dislikes. But yes, it doesn't change the fact that it's an ending with loose ends. Whether that is good or bad however, is a matter of opinion, and subjective to the individual, despite what the majority may think.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, this argument may just end up with personal remarks being thrown around.

X: "I thought FF7's ending was the best one ever!"
Y: "How? There was so many things left unexplained. All you saw was Red XII and some greenery over Midgar, that's it."
X: "I like open endings. It leaves it to your imagination."
Y: "So you're telling me you like all those loose ends? To me, that's a crap ending."
X: "Well I liked it!"
Y: "Why?"
X: "Because I do! I've already answered why!"
Y: "That it's an open ending leaving things up to your imagination? Riight, you're strange."

That's a basic derivation.

But you're saying that good or bad is based on opinion. It isn't. A person can like a bad game or despise a good one. That's not what the topic is about. Personal likes and dislikes are disregarded for the purpose of debate, so you are completely, totally, and unequivocably wrong.

But you're saying that good or bad is based on opinion. It isn't. A person can like a bad game or despise a good one. That's not what the topic is about. Personal likes and dislikes are disregarded for the purpose of debate, so you are completely, totally, and unequivocably wrong.

Ok, so tell me what makes a good or bad game then. That is the real discussion. If you're saying a person can like a bad game, is it a bad game for them? Why is it a bad game? Because it lacks certain things?

If there really are in fact a list of rules that make a game good, then it is considered a good game. But why? Because the majority would agree with them. So when a person plays a "bad" game that doesn't have any of those factors, then they are regarded by the majority as liking a bad game.

Good or bad is based on opinion. What a person considers good or bad transends whatever anyone else thinks makes a good or bad game.

If your saying personal dislikes and likes are disregarded for the purposes of debate, then I just fail to see the point of debating (like I've said many times before). What in fact are you really debating about? It can't be whether FF7 is a good or bad game, because that is down to opinion. It's subjective to the individual, despite what the majority may think.

[Edit (Addition)]
A few billion people (group A) like game X but hate game Y, you would all consider X to be a good game and Y to be the bad game.

Another few billion people (group B) like game Y but hate game X. They all consider game Y to be a good game and X to be the bad game.

Group A would say that group B like a bad game and hate a good hame. Group B would say that group A like a bad game and hate a good game.

*sigh* Okay, I'm only going to echo this one more time, because it's a really simple concept. However, I'm going to put it in the simplest terms imaginable.

Good and bad are not the same as like and dislike. I happen to like the movie Kull the Conquerer, but I would never say it's a good movie. It's quite bad, but I like it. On the other hand, I freely acknowledge that Metal Gear Solid 3 was a great game, but I hated it completely.

And even if I thought Kull was good, it would still be bad because it lacked in technical merit. If I thought MGS3 was awful, it would still be good because it was well-designed.

It's because I understand that concept that I am able to debate the matter effectively.

If you want to press the issue and echo the same things you've been saying, don't expect a further reply because that's all I have to say (as well as all that needs to be said) on the matter.

Is there such a thing as a mindless subjective response? I mean surely you cannot just like or dislike something for no particular reason. Being unable to express this reason is another matter all together.
I personally enjoyed playing final fantasy 7, however I think that it is cheapened by the hype and constant shameless promotion by fanatics.

*sigh* Okay, I'm only going to echo this one more time, because it's a really simple concept. However, I'm going to put it in the simplest terms imaginable.

Good and bad are not the same as like and dislike. I happen to like the movie Kull the Conquerer, but I would never say it's a good movie. It's quite bad, but I like it. On the other hand, I freely acknowledge that Metal Gear Solid 3 was a great game, but I hated it completely.

And even if I thought Kull was good, it would still be bad because it lacked in technical merit. If I thought MGS3 was awful, it would still be good because it was well-designed.

It's because I understand that concept that I am able to debate the matter effectively.

If you want to press the issue and echo the same things you've been saying, don't expect a further reply because that's all I have to say (as well as all that needs to be said) on the matter.

Maybe you shouldn't use the words good and bad. If something has technical merit, is well designed and basically has more, it doesn't make it good. My vocabulary truly sucks so I don't know what word to use apart from the phrase "technically better".

Good or bad is subjective to the individual, but the two words I don't know are not.

If you still think I don't understand what you're saying, I'll give you a similar example in terms of, lets say, singing. Christina Aguilera has a bigger range, she can control her vibrato, she can always sing in key. Britney Spears can't do any of that. It doesn't mean that Christina Aguilera is good, and it doesn't mean that Britney Spears is bad, since what is good or bad is subjective to the individual. Person A might think that Britney Spears has a really good voice, to them. While techincally, Christina has the better voice.

If you simply have been discussing what is "technically better", I'll back off. FF7 doesn't really stand a chance. Debating whether it is good or bad however is pointless.

[Edit (Addition)]
Halo example. Technically, it doesn't have much. But to many people, it's a good game. They don't like a bad game.

[Edit (Further Addition)]
In terms of music, some people may think pop music is good, but think heavy metal is bad. They might not even consider it music at all. While other people think heavy metal is good, and pop is bad. What genre is technically superior however is where the debate lies. That's why good and bad are subjective to the individual.

final fantasy 7 was brillant everything was good about it

constant shameless promotion by fanatics.

final fantasy 7 was brillant everything was good about it

Heh. Yet another silly n00b who didn't bother to read the thread.

the graphics are dreadful

Is there such a thing as a mindless subjective response? I mean surely you cannot just like or dislike something for no particular reason. Being unable to express this reason is another matter all together.
I personally enjoyed playing final fantasy 7, however I think that it is cheapened by the hype and constant shameless promotion by fanatics.

When it comes down to its finest point, there is simply no explanation as to why someone would like or dislike something.

Take flavour for example. Why do you like that certain flavour? Well er, you just do. You can't explain it.

I like FF7, probably due to all the first time experience thing. While it has better graphics than FF6, it is mostly technically inferior to FF6. But I like FF7 more. Just because a game is technically good, doesn't mean it is good. Well, that is how I see things. If you like something, you would think it's good, regardless of whether it's technically good or technically bad. It's just not logical to like something you think is bad. But it would make sense to like something that it is technically bad.

I'm stuck with using technically good and technically bad since I just don't have any other words that could describe it.

I think a more accurate way to think about it than (good/bad) and (technically good/technically bad) would be (enjoyable/not enjoyable) and (good/bad).

i dont know

I read the first 200 posts.

You just proved my point there too. Halo doesn't really have anything to it (not that I've played it, I'm just going by what you're saying), yet people like it. They really really like it. True, is doesn't change the fact that it's a shallow game, but since so many people like it, then you can't say it's a bad game.

Just watch me.

Halo is a bad game. This is because it is completely unoriginal, and public opinion has nothing to do with a game's quality.

Just watch me.

Halo is a bad game. This is because it is completely unoriginal, and public opinion has nothing to do with a game's quality.
Sure, but the graphics make it look good and that attracts many people to it, that and the simple controls(I still don't know why people like the damn game)...It's the same with what FFVII had back in the day...good graphics and simple easy controls and gameplay and a retarded storyline...that people liked.

Even FFVII burns Halo to the ground.

It's the other way around, at least Halo is still fun.

How much fun it is is one of the few things that IS a matter of opinion. I ask again why this forum is still here.

I'm sorry, but if someone were to tell me they liked a book and when asked why they responded with 'I don't know', I would think that person was one dimensional.
If your were to write a review for a magazine and say "I like so and so product just because. I cannot explain why, think 'flavours'" then people wouldn't read it.


I like FF7, probably due to all the first time experience thing.
Well I guess you do have a reason after all. I do not personally agree that a game should be idolised because it was the first you played. However, your reason stands.

Yeah, it'd pretty retarded if you couldn't explain why you like a certain product or game.

But sometimes its not that it cant be explained its just that its hard to explain becuase sometimes the reason you like things is becuase of the emotional response which is much harder to explain than facts but I do get what your saying.

Well, you could just say it made me emotional in a good way then.

but then some people who are asses say thats not good enough.

It's better than saying you liked something just because.

Well yeah that is true.

Of course you can't simple say you like something without somewhat backing it up, but like I said, when it comes down to its finest point, you just like something.

I like X because of A, B and C. I like A, B and C due to D, E and F. I Like D, E and F because of G, H and I. It could go on and on, but there's only so much it can boil down to.

I'm not gonna defend why I like FF7, because I've said many times that I find debating about games pointless.

Or maybe it's cause you're just a tard.

Well I guess you do have a reason after all. I do not personally agree that a game should be idolised because it was the first you played. However, your reason stands.

Who said I idolize the game. I said I like the game.

Because it was my first ever FF, it gave me experiences I hadn't ever experienced up until then. Therefore, for me, it's hard to say I dislike the game when I don't. Despite it lacking in certain areas compared to other FFs, I like it. It's not like I'm gonna hear something that lots of people dislike causing me to dislike it. I've read every criticism and I agree with most if not all of them. Does it make the game bad? Technically and theoretically yes. But to people, it simple depends on what they think of it.

I'm not against debating about FF7. But I am against explaining why exactly someone would like or dislike the game, since things like that cannot be explained.

A non-linear storyline would in theory, be better than a linear one since there's more to it. But it doesn't mean that a non-linear storyline is good and a linear one is bad. Well designed and graphically appealing games may be better in that technical area, but it doesn't necessairly make them good. Since I believe that whether something is good or bad is solely subjective to the individual, I will continue to stand by this view. If you enjoy something, anything, you would think it's good, regardless of the technical stuff and whether or not it is technically inferior or superior.

Since some have been making assumptions, it seems clear they haven't read what I previously posted. But whatever, this is just a damn game. Who bloody cares. Everyone has their own view.

And just so I can make this clear, I don't think FF7 is the greatest game ever. I don't idolize it. I don't think it has a great storyline. I don't think Cloud or Sephiroth are "badass". However, I do like the materia system. I like customization. I like the combinations and different tactics and effects that can be generated. Why? I just do. But I also like different jobs and that in FFVI and FFIX. I like the fact that each character has their own role and you have to think about your party. But then again, I also like the materia system. I don't consider one better than the other. They both have their pros and cons.

I just went against why I've been saying for so long (but it seemed necessary to satisfy the hunger of some people), and I feel this whole thread is just game in itself. Have fun!


Or maybe it's cause you're just a tard.

Really now chornsy, was that really necessary? :-P

sure it was, and don't call me that.

Of course you can't simple say you like something without somewhat backing it up, but like I said, when it comes down to its finest point, you just like something.

I like X because of A, B and C. I like A, B and C due to D, E and F. I Like D, E and F because of G, H and I. It could go on and on, but there's only so much it can boil down to.

I'm not gonna defend why I like FF7, because I've said many times that I find debating about games pointless.

This is a debate thread. If you don't like debating about games, then why are you even posting here?

sure it was, and don't call me that.

But it was necessary. :-P


This is a debate thread. If you don't like debating about games, then why are you even posting here?

I won't anymore. If you would have read my previous posts you would see what I had to say. I did plan to stop posting in this thread but since I was quoted and replied to, I had to say more. If you only read the most recent posts, quote and reply to them, I reply back repeating what I've been saying before so you don't misunderstand.

But now, I've said what I had to say. I don't have anymore input on this subject. I don't care about FF7 enough to have a debate about aspects of the game.

Perhaps 'idolise' was too strong a word. My mistake.
Stating to have had a stronger emotional reaction to a game because you played it first, is an illogical argument in my opinion. I personally would not let this factor alter my judgement when criticising a game.

Well just because I do have a stronger emotional connection to the game making me like it more than others, it's hardly an argument to say the game is technically good. It's not an argument at all. If I was to review a game, I wouldn't let any of my opinions affect the review.

Okay, I've gotta say - anyone who has played FFVII and can say with his full heart that it isn't a good game has got to have a mental problem. No offense, I'm not trying to diss you. But it's such a good game, you must have seen SOMETHING that you liked? Weren't you touched when Sephiroth killed Aeris (or Aerith, whatever)? Didn't you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?
I mean, dude, you can feel the way you want, think what you want and everything.
But without any hard feelings, I say that you have a problem man.

Okay, I've gotta say - anyone who has played FFVII and can say with his full heart that it isn't a good game has got to have a mental problem.

Yeah sure. Whatever you say, sport.


No offense, I'm not trying to diss you. But it's such a good game, you must have seen SOMETHING that you liked?

I think pretty much all of us have made mention of something we liked. Still, all that means is that we think it had some redeeming values that kept it in the realm of mediocrity instead being a total train wreck.


Weren't you touched when Sephiroth killed Aeris (or Aerith, whatever)?

No. Saw it coming a mile away. It had only been foreshadowed for half the game to that point.


Didn't you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?

No. I saw that coming also.


I mean, dude, you can feel the way you want, think what you want and everything.
But without any hard feelings, I say that you have a problem man.

That's nice. But we're all big, bad, mean men around here and you'd be a lot happier if you went and played with some legos or something instead of subjecting yourself to the harsh reality we offer.

We all KNEW Cait Sith was going to betray the party. It was obvious, sorry if you didn't get it -.-; But a lot of the things in FF7 were cliche. Sure, it was a good game, but it was a bit too cliche for my liking.

Okay, I've gotta say - anyone who has played FFVII and can say with his full heart that it isn't a good game has got to have a mental problem.
So I have a mental problem. Really, can you prove it?


Weren't you touched when Sephiroth killed Aeris (or Aerith, whatever)? Didn't you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?No, not really, lot of people in games die, it's only a game.


Didn't you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?No, not really, it was pretty obvious what was gonna happen. I can't feel betrayed by some pixels on a screen.

I mean, dude, you can feel the way you want, think what you want and everything. Okay, I will

But without any hard feelings, I say that you have a problem man.
No hard feelings? But you just said that I have a serious mental problem!


Well just because I do have a stronger emotional connection to the game making me like it more than others, it's hardly an argument to say the game is technically good. It's not an argument at all. If I was to review a game, I wouldn't let any of my opinions affect the review.
Of course you would, if I made a review of FFVII, I would put my opinion of the game in there cause otherwise I would be a robot, is that what you want to be?

Of course you would, if I made a review of FFVII, I would put my opinion of the game in there cause otherwise I would be a robot, is that what you want to be?

If I was to review a game, I would point out all its technical highlights and drawbacks, but I wouldn't let my opinion of the game make it a biased review. Maybe at the end I would give my own personal opinion.

I would have my opinion all over the review, but I would put in good things for people who would like a game like FFVII too.

What was the point of that whole thing about writing a review?

What was the point of that whole thing about writing a review?
I don't know, but Jewel started, so I tried correcting him, but I think he's beyond that by now.^_^

Prak I just have a question, when you were playing the game the first time could you see the things coming a mile away or is it that after you beat it and look back on it you can see the foreshadowing that you might not have seen or understood initially?

I don't know about Prak, but I could tell that Aeris was gonna die awhile before she actually died the first time around.

I had figured it all out well in advance. When Aeris died, my reaction was, "Ho hum. I was right again."

I had figured out Cait Sith because he was too pushy about joining the party. I remember my little brother yelling at me to shut up when I screamed, "I knew it!"

I could tell Cait Sith was a traitor too.

I haven't admitted this yet, but I had an unusual first view of FFVII's story. I was about 8 years old when my brother started playing it. I would watch him play it every now and then, and I saw several key plot events (Aeris's death) without knowing what was going on. So I never really knew how obvious Aeris's death was because I knew about it before I ever played the game. FFVII's story looks better when you play it the second time through because the little plot devices they put in are too insignificant to be proper forshadowing. And since I already knew about many things that were going to happen, I caught on to some of those. Basically, I never really had a good view on the effectiveness of the plot.

Ok I just wanted to know becuase some people say they saw it coming but it was really only after they saw it and then looked back that they notice the clues. I personally admit that I could tell cait sith was a spy or something but with Aeris, I could tell something bad was gonna happen to her but I had no idea it was going to be as extreme as death.

Ok I just wanted to know becuase some people say they saw it coming but it was really only after they saw it and then looked back that they notice the clues. I personally admit that I could tell cait sith was a spy or something but with Aeris, I could tell something bad was gonna happen to her but I had no idea it was going to be as extreme as death.

What else would happen to her? Would she just get a cut on her knee? I'm not being sarcastic; I'm just asking to know.

Well I thought she might get like badly injured and not be able to continue on with the party or she might get possesed by sephiroth or something like that.

Well I thought she might get like badly injured and not be able to continue on with the party or she might get possesed by sephiroth or something like that.

I suppose that's possible... That kind of thing doesn't happen very often, though. It happened all the time in FFIV, what with Cid surviving jumping out of an airship and blowing himself up but being too tired to help your party, but it didn't really come up again in the FF series.

imho, ffvii was an overhyped game. it was good, but not as good as it was hyped to be. personally, i disklike the lack of 'jobs', because i liked using characters due to their purposes.

well aeris was kinda a healy magicy person but besides from that your right

Not one thing that was said in the last two posts had not been said previously. Read the WHOLE thread before you post, please.

The whole thing??? Are you crazy! Thats 20 pages!

Well, everythings been covered anyway, but I'm still going to say it. At the time it was a terrific game, now I think the other ones have crept up, especially with graphics and character abilities. I still recon it had the best story and SOME of the best music out of all the FF games.

The whole thing??? Are you crazy! Thats 20 pages!

Well, everythings been covered anyway, but I'm still going to say it. At the time it was a terrific game, now I think the other ones have crept up, especially with graphics and character abilities. I still recon it had the best story and SOME of the best music out of all the FF games.

This is why you need to read the thread. Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak, who have all but eradicated every argument in favor of FFVII, said absolutely nothing about the new FF games making FFVII obsolete. IMO, FF has been going downhill since FFVI. Graphics determine absolutely nothing about the quality of a game, and FFVI's character abilities absolutely pwn the crap out of anything from FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, or any other for that matter. FFVII is just as good now as it was when it came out; the newer FFs have not introduced anything revolutionary at all. This thread is about how good it was then and still is now. Your post leaves me with the most extreme doubt that you have played through FF1-6. I do agree with you about the music, but the movie Waterworld proved that a really good soundtrack can't save a movie or game single-handedly. I still say FFVII is my personal favorite FF game, but it is not the best.

P.S. Yes, I am crazy.

Yeah, in fact the only FF game that I enjoyed as much as VI was Tactics! Other than that the other ones were pretty good, but nothing compared to the classics!

Yea.. you have probably heard it all already in this thread, and everywhere else. Still, you don't often hear a good defense of FFVII. One thing that people who dislike FFVII always criticize is the "shallowness" of why people like it. That it was all the shiny FMV and newbieness to RPGs which imprinted them with FFVII. That's certainly true, FFVII was a flashy attempt at a marketing device modeled after the typical research of popular appeal, but so are all FF games for their time. Square is, and always has just been trying to make a product that appeals to fans; with all its releases.

First realize that when I say pre-FFVII-fans, I am talking about players of the series who realize games like FFIV and VI are better FF RPGs.
With that said, in much the same way as the pre-FFVII-fans seem to want FFVII-fans to realize how inferior FFVII is, the pre-FFVII-fans should realize well the reason why FFVII rubs them the wrong way.

Because a shift was applied and slapped with the Final Fantasy brand with FFVII.

It is not a bad game, by any stretch of the imagination. If it hadn't carried the FF name, odds are the naysayers would have loved it. Neither is it perfect, it's vastly flawed. But so are all the FF games to varying degrees. Again, with that said, I still like to point out the mediocre reasons why FFVII fans consider it a good game, or even the best. In my view, these silly "fanboy(girl)ish" reasons ruin the legitimate reasons.

We all know the mediocre reasons, they've been recited and remixed endlessly. But the reasons I consider legitimate rarely are, if ever. In a nutshell, FFVII was a great and exotic (in every sense of the word) story; the presentation was relative rubbish, and the often-idiotic translation enhanced this fact. (is barret supposed to be talking ebonics or something?) You can't deny the strangeness, for lack of a better word. The underlying sense of the afterlife is, cool, I guess, for another lack of a better word. Another thing is the relatively ambiguous sense of good and evil; something the "better", older FF games totally lack. You got your Zeromus, you got your Kefka, and whatnot. All these evil scum who are all ranging from the typical un-repairable bad guy tormented into a love of cruelty, to the full-on essense of pure evil. Sephiroth was a sad creep who basically got sparked off by nothing but revenge and indignation, while, for instance, Kefka was already a well established bastard, and probably one by nature; Zeromus and the rest that I know, just your average essense of evil, like I said.

You gotta give FFVII credit for subtle things such as these. And the music in it is my favorite, I loved most of the dramatic music in it. These are the reasons why I consider it to be good.

It didn't grab my attention as much as the other ff games. sorry for saying that, i know it's a great game. I just thought the story was a little lacking (even though i can see that many loved it). I have a personal preference for 8, for music, for story, and for atmosphere. Sorry, but that's how i feel. (please don't kill me)

Yea.. you have probably heard it all already in this thread, and everywhere else. Still, you don't often hear a good defense of FFVII. One thing that people who dislike FFVII always criticize is the "shallowness" of why people like it. That it was all the shiny FMV and newbieness to RPGs which imprinted them with FFVII. That's certainly true, FFVII was a flashy attempt at a marketing device modeled after the typical research of popular appeal, but so are all FF games for their time. Square is, and always has just been trying to make a product that appeals to fans; with all its releases.

First realize that when I say pre-FFVII-fans, I am talking about players of the series who realize games like FFIV and VI are better FF RPGs.
With that said, in much the same way as the pre-FFVII-fans seem to want FFVII-fans to realize how inferior FFVII is, the pre-FFVII-fans should realize well the reason why FFVII rubs them the wrong way.

Because a shift was applied and slapped with the Final Fantasy brand with FFVII.

It is not a bad game, by any stretch of the imagination. If it hadn't carried the FF name, odds are the naysayers would have loved it. Neither is it perfect, it's vastly flawed. But so are all the FF games to varying degrees. Again, with that said, I still like to point out the mediocre reasons why FFVII fans consider it a good game, or even the best. In my view, these silly "fanboy(girl)ish" reasons ruin the legitimate reasons.

We all know the mediocre reasons, they've been recited and remixed endlessly. But the reasons I consider legitimate rarely are, if ever. In a nutshell, FFVII was a great and exotic (in every sense of the word) story; the presentation was relative rubbish, and the often-idiotic translation enhanced this fact. (is barret supposed to be talking ebonics or something?) You can't deny the strangeness, for lack of a better word. The underlying sense of the afterlife is, cool, I guess, for another lack of a better word. Another thing is the relatively ambiguous sense of good and evil; something the "better", older FF games totally lack. You got your Zeromus, you got your Kefka, and whatnot. All these evil scum who are all ranging from the typical un-repairable bad guy tormented into a love of cruelty, to the full-on essense of pure evil. Sephiroth was a sad creep who basically got sparked off by nothing but revenge and indignation, while, for instance, Kefka was already a well established bastard, and probably one by nature; Zeromus and the rest that I know, just your average essense of evil, like I said.

You gotta give FFVII credit for subtle things such as these. And the music in it is my favorite, I loved most of the dramatic music in it. These are the reasons why I consider it to be good.

Though you did a much better job defending FFVII than most, you didn't use any specific examples to support your details. You mixed up details about Sephiroth, for one thing. And Kefka has a totally unknown past, so you have no way of knowing that he wasn't just a sad creep who went nuts. As for Zeromus, you don't know that Zeromus is your enemy until the very end of the game. Sephiroth, on the other hand, is basically the only reason why the party is even on a journey throughout the duration of the game. Finally, you cannot have possibly read all of the early posts, because they countered most, if not all, of your points.

And to prove once again that I'm not just biased against FFVII, it was and still is my favorite of the series.

I don't see how Rabid Monkey saw the whole Cloud-Sephiroth plot twist work. Cloud was really just the crummy shinra guy in blue @ Nibelheim, not the Zack he thought he was. This startled me when the game told me, I thought Cloud was just a failure and those really were fake memories put in there by Hojo. I mean there weren't any clues pointing this.

If you have a reply post it, because I want to know your reasoning for how you "predicted" this. This wasn't predictable.

Does anyone have feedback to this? I would like to hear it.

Good luck there, seeing as how Rabid Monkey hasn't posted in a long time. Smokey or Prak will probably accomodate you, though.

Though you did a much better job defending FFVII than most, you didn't use any specific examples to support your details. You mixed up details about Sephiroth, for one thing.

I don't really agree that pointing out details make or break any RPG. The same statement about not using specific examples could be said about any claim. Including those that state the older FF games are better (something I agree with in the case of FFIV and VI). I said it pretty clearly that FFVII has it's good points, but tend to be beyond what the average "fanboy" cares about in their enjoyment of it. But they are there, in my opinion. I did say what they were. I could spend all day trying to put into words specific examples about what I mean in saying 'the game had an intresting feel, setting, and message', but I don't see the specific point in doing so, since these are all just opinions and can be dismissed.


And Kefka has a totally unknown past, so you have no way of knowing that he wasn't just a sad creep who went nuts.

Yes of course, but as far what I consider to be my reasonable judgment, Kefka was a bad guy who enjoyed cruelty, hence what I said about him being a bastard by nature. In my view, Sephiroth didn't come across that way as an introduced character, only until he learned about things he lost it.

Maybe a similar thing happened to Kefka, but maybes are irrelevant when only interpreting events in stories that you actually witness. As with what happens with Sephiroth. Not to mention the fact that, unlike the latter, Kefka is not shown to us in any way to have any consideration for matters of an afterlife with his actions. On the other hand, someone could go so far as to say Sephiroth was really trying to be a good guy and bring serenity, or whatever. If that's the case, not your typical blood-thirsty madman who wanted to just "destroy everything" for the sake of it.


As for Zeromus, you don't know that Zeromus is your enemy until the very end of the game. Sephiroth, on the other hand, is basically the only reason why the party is even on a journey throughout the duration of the game.

I don't think it matters when you know who the enemy is. The point is Zeromus was the enemy, and soley responsible for everything just the same; and was just your standard 'evil entity' out for destruction. All I'm arguing here is the underlying story of things.


Finally, you cannot have possibly read all of the early posts, because they countered most, if not all, of your points.

And to prove once again that I'm not just biased against FFVII, it was and still is my favorite of the series.

I really don't see where an opinion being countered is grounds for dismissal of a claim; like one saying FFVII isn't a good game. I gave reasons why I think it's a good game overall (or at the very least not a terrible one as some claim). That, just an argument against the statement all throughout this thread, and this old issue in general, that there is never a good statement of reasons why someone likes FFVII.

What I was basically saying to you is that all everyone is stating here is an opinion yes, but this is a debate thread. If you want to debate, then use specific examples to support your opinion. Giving reasons you think the game is good is a start, but you have to use evidence from the game to back it up, or you're not debating. More than anything, I think I'm trying to coax the FFVII fans to use specific examples in their arguments rather than just repeat themselves about how it's just a matter of opinion. No one said you can't think FFVII is a good game. A long time ago in this thread I was arguing against Smokey, but seeing what some of the FFVII fans do when they feel their game is threatened disgusted me.

Can someone please reply to my question? Or was it just Rabid Monkey who saw the plot-twists between Cloud et Sephiroth?

Explain the relevance of your question. Maybe if it actually has a point, I'll respond to it.

If you want to debate, then use specific examples to support your opinion. Giving reasons you think the game is good is a start, but you have to use evidence from the game to back it up, or you're not debating. More than anything, I think I'm trying to coax the FFVII fans to use specific examples in their arguments rather than just repeat themselves about how it's just a matter of opinion. No one said you can't think FFVII is a good game. A long time ago in this thread I was arguing against Smokey, but seeing what some of the FFVII fans do when they feel their game is threatened disgusted me.

I agree with just saying "it's cool" is not a good reason, but I think the reasons I've stated were told a little better. If you consider those reasons to not have enough specific examples, nor evidence from the game, then by that same logic in my view, neither do the reasons given about the supposed better games.

I think this thread should be closed and archived right the fuck out of here, before it gets overkilled and dumbified. =/

I think this thread should be closed and archived right the fuck out of here, before it gets overkilled and dumbified. =/
oh, it's waaaay beyond that point!