I'm going to have to agree with you two.

Explain the relevance of your question. Maybe if it actually has a point, I'll respond to it.


I'm just sick of people like Rabid Monkey pointing out that they know everything, he doesn't and I want to show it. Sorry if that isn't correct, but it pisses me off. Plus it wasn't obvious was it? You should know Prak, I think you're the smartest. (No sarcasm)


SOMEONE REPLY DAMMIT!

In a debate, you have to take on a mood as though what you're saying is the full truth, even if it's not. Of course, that still doesn't explain why this thread hasn't been closed yet.

In a debate, you have to take on a mood as though what you're saying is the full truth, even if it's not. Of course, that still doesn't explain why this thread hasn't been closed yet.

Thats what I was thinking.

Yeah you guys said that FFVII is easy but what about FVIII ? It is ****ing easy !!!!!!!! Oh yeah I beat Ultimecia at lvl 12 , wat da **** ???? There is no point to lvl up due to your enemy lvl up with you , so basicaly in FFVIII you dont even want to lvl up . Come on its so stupid when you play RPG and dont want to LEVEL your characters . All you have to do is playing that GAY CARD game . And you can just summon fucking powerful GF 10000000000 times in a row to go through 3/4 of the game ! Plus Limit break just pwn everying thing ( its so easy when you have Aura ) . Draw magic from monters is stupid and time-consuming as well everybody complain about that . Really nice battle system indeed !

SO if FFVII is not a good game then FFVIII is shit as well . My FFX is the BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O:]


Sure, but the graphics make it look good and that attracts many people to it, that and the simple controls(I still don't know why people like the damn game)...It's the same with what FFVII had back in the day...good graphics and simple easy controls and gameplay and a retarded storyline...that people liked.

Halo sux , if you like FPS try CS2 insteed .
Yeah FFVII's story line is retarded but it is still much better than FFVI's =)

I'm pretty sure at least some people would say that FFVIII IS shit. It was wayyy too easy. It's off topic to compare FFVII's difficulty to that of FFVIII, because it's like comparing food to brussels sprouts soaked in kumquat juice.

And would you like to use specific examples and reasoning to support your point about the storyline compared to that of FFVI, or should we just disregard your comment on that altogether? Those are your two options.

Yeah you guys said that FFVII is easy but what about FVIII ? It is ****ing easy !!!!!!!! Oh yeah I beat Ultimecia at lvl 12 , wat da **** ???? There is no point to lvl up due to your enemy lvl up with you , so basicaly in FFVIII you dont even want to lvl up . Come on its so stupid when you play RPG and dont want to LEVEL your characters . All you have to do is playing that GAY CARD game . And you can just summon fucking powerful GF 10000000000 times in a row to go through 3/4 of the game ! Plus Limit break just pwn everying thing ( its so easy when you have Aura ) . Draw magic from monters is stupid and time-consuming as well everybody complain about that . Really nice battle system indeed !

SO if FFVII is not a good game then FFVIII is shit as well . My FFX is the BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O:]



Halo sux , if you like FPS try CS2 insteed .
Yeah FFVII's story line is retarded but it is still much better than FFVI's =)I liked FFVI the most!

I liked FFVI the most!

I liked FFVI the second most, but I think it's the best. Proof against the stupid argument the fanboys keep using that it's entirely a matter of opinion.

YOU'RE STUPID CUZ FF7 IS A GOOD GAME!! SO THERE!!
jks I think this game was the best cuz you keep guessing why cloud is screwed up till you find out in the lifestream.

Thanks very much. I needed to laugh.

Oh yeah, FFVIII was much better than VII.

Alright, I think Final Fantasy 9 was better than final fantasy seven, because of the way the story was conveyed and the development of the characters. I felt much more attached to Zidane than Cloud or..that other flower girl (i forgot how she died).I dont think graphics plays a part..ever. I believe that although FF7 was good, there were better Final Fantasies, relative to the adventure, characters and amount of fun involved.

I found it hard to forgive the ability-learning system in FF9, but that's not what this thread is about. I still think FFVII was the best of the PS FFs, but FFIV and FFVI were unparalleled by any other FF game that ever came out.

I actually liked the ability system in FF9. Well, in comparison to the other psx Final Fantasies. The reason was because there were some skills that only one or two characters could get, so it was returning to a FFIV/FFVI type of system. It wasn't perfect because some of the better skills were shared by everyone (I can't think of specifics because it has been a while, but I remember being irked by that), but I think it was a step up from some of the previous games. If only they had modified it for FFX instead of using that silly sphere system. =/

VIISephirothVII, I'm pretty sure your question got answered when I was debating with Durendal. If it wasn't then give me some more information about what exactly you're asking. After all, I haven't actively debated in this thread for almost 6 months. Heck, the only reason I posted was because I wanted to comment on FFIX.

I actually liked the ability system in FF9. Well, in comparison to the other psx Final Fantasies. The reason was because there were some skills that only one or two characters could get, so it was returning to a FFIV/FFVI type of system. It wasn't perfect because some of the better skills were shared by everyone (I can't think of specifics because it has been a while, but I remember being irked by that), but I think it was a step up from some of the previous games. If only they had modified it for FFX instead of using that silly sphere system. =/

VIISephirothVII, I'm pretty sure your question got answered when I was debating with Durendal. If it wasn't then give me some more information about what exactly you're asking. After all, I haven't actively debated in this thread for almost 6 months. Heck, the only reason I posted was because I wanted to comment on FFIX.

I really think this is a sign that this and the other thread should be closed. I'm not saying you can't say stuff about FFIX in here; after all, you're the thread starter. But it means there isn't much left to discuss about FFVII. This thread is really getting worn out. Another reason is what you told VIISephirothVII, about how his question was answered earlier. This thread is extremely long, so many people just don't bother to read it and post stuff that has already been countered/disproven. There's really no way to prevent that. Maybe I just feel sorry for the FFVII fanboys who are really getting their asses kicked. If this thread continues, I can only quote Samuel L. Jackson from
Jurassic Park

"Hold on to your butts."

seriously, everyone raise their hands if their opinions have changed about ffVII becuz of this thread, or the other one....(long pause)...EXACTLY....so why the hell is everyone bitching at everyone...no ones opinions have changed....so i for one also believe that this thread...along with the other one shud be closed...

I'll raise my hand...and I have played FF 7 for 600 hours (maybe 1500 hours in all my games combined). And this thread has shown me exactly what is wrong. I have the gmae basically memorized now and oh well it isn't as good as it seemed.

And no one's opoinons changed because no one seems to consider any other view.

seriously, everyone raise their hands if their opinions have changed about ffVII becuz of this thread, or the other one....(long pause)...EXACTLY....so why the hell is everyone bitching at everyone...no ones opinions have changed....so i for one also believe that this thread...along with the other one shud be closed...


Oh how witty, pretending to wait for people to respond before you post the reply. In all seriousness, I'm pretty sure a number of people have had their opinion changed. However, I doubt many have actually said it in the thread. Not that it matters because I you don�t seem like someone that reads anything other than your own posts in threads this large.


FF1WithAllThieves: I still get some entertainment out of this thread (and the other one). Every time I see it come back to the top with some fanboy screaming holy murder and demanding the thread be closed, my heart warms a little. The main reason is because they would like nothing better than to see this thread drop off the front page and never come back, yet they continue to bump it up. It boggles my mind how so many people can be like "this thread should be closed" and completely fail to realize that they contribute to it staying alive merely by replying to it. To be 100% clear (because I know it is sometimes hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic on a forum) I'm not taking a shot at you. You've actually contributed intelligently, so it would be pretty silly of me to try and take an indirect jab at you.

As for FFIX, I never look in that forum, to be honest. I really don't know what compelled me to comment, other than the fact that it showed that Square COULD move back to a decent ability system if they decided... even though it still needed a lot of work and they abandoned it after FFIX.



With that said, to a large number of you:

IF YOU DO NOT WANT THIS THREAD TO CONTINUE YOUR BEST OPTION IS TO SIMPLY NOT POST IN IT. IF YOU POST IN THIS THREAD IT MEANS YOU ARE ONLY BRINGING IT TO THE TOP OF THE PAGE ONE MORE TIME.

I'll raise my hand, too.

Rabid Monkey: Yeah, you're right. Now that I think about it, this thread is kind of entertaining. I'll go pop some popcorn.

Yeah, I get a kick out of the FFVII fans yelling that FFVII is the best when it clearly isn't.

Someone please ban this fucker.

Unseen. You are really cool. You know that? Really really cool. I think you just feel stupid because you said who would raise tehir hand...long pause..but everyone following you raised their hands. You are really cool man. A+.

lol...ban me, so then in two days when my IP is recycled, i jus create a new account...yeah...that works...tsk tsk...you need to wash yur mouth out with soap...where is yur mother??? And...sweet...i always knew i was cool...woot for me and my 1337 skills

Just for you unseen:

Unseen: Please don't post threads like that.
I agree with Prak: Someone please ban this fucker.

well, ill jus come back like i said in two days...so banning me wont do anything

uh oh..this thread isnt at the top anymore....here, ill help it back up again

Well, if you do come back, then you won't be able to rub it in because if you reveal your identity, you will be banned yet again, and that's another two days you have to wait.

lol, well, i could admit it the night b4, and create my new acount the next day =D...but yeah, yur kinda right...but it will be jus like startin over

lol, well, i could admit it the night b4, and create my new acount the next day =D...but yeah, yur kinda right...but it will be jus like startin over

IP bans aren't the only type. ;) If we really wanted to keep you from joining again, we could. However, you haven't really done anything outside of this thread that warrants a ban. Well, at least nothing any of the mods have seen.

I adore that image, Rabid Monkey.

IP bans aren't the only type. ;) If we really wanted to keep you from joining again, we could.
And just what kinda bans you talkin about? Are ya gonna filter my MAC...cuz i doubt that...and i can always get around that if you cud :D

Will someone ban the asshole already? He's practically challenging you to do it.

lol... :D...and i thought we were begining to be friends....jeez...now i have nuttin to live for now that prick...uhh..i mean prak doesnt like me... *goes of and cries*

Will someone ban the asshole already? He's practically challenging you to do it.
Yeah, he's annoying.

meh

hehehe...i think its funny that everyone keeps bad mouthing me and hating me...yet they bring me up as if they almost like me....jus like rabbid monkey told me about renewing threads i didnt like...dont feed me if ya dont like me....and its cool..i have been promoted to annoying....YAY....first i was a fucker...then i was demoted to someone telling me to go kill myself...but...after all this time...i have been promoted...thx everyone for believing in me I would also like to thank my parents for telling me anything is possible if i put my mind to it...and for always believing in me

We still hate your rotten guts, fucker.

nice to know you love me...*googley eyes*....te he he he....i love you to man....*whispers* call me....1-800-me4free

I swear to god. This 12 year old jack nut has no damn life other than to defend a point when he knows that he lost. GIve it up man. You got no friends in school or something? Do you need love and attention? What the hell is wrong with you man. Everyone is bad mouthing you cause you talk shit with NOTHING to back up your points

I swear to god. This 12 year old jack nut has no damn life other than to defend a point when he knows that he lost. GIve it up man. You got no friends in school or something? Do you need love and attention? What the hell is wrong with you man. Everyone is bad mouthing you cause you talk shit with NOTHING to back up your points

actually...yes...i need lotsa love...and where am i bad mouthing anyone...i love ya all....cmon man..give me a hug...you know you want to...*extends arms out* :D

Why aren't we talking about Final Fantasy VII and how much it sucks?! Instead, we're pickin on some guy for no reason, oh well, too bad, but we should get back on topic.

Yeah, let's not waste our words on him because he clearly feeds on abuse. We can't get started yet, though, without someone to post something in favor of FFVII. I'll make a particularly stupid comment just to get us started (and probably argue against myself)

FFVII is the greatest because it made the most money!!!!1111

Well yeah, but that is because it was new and baack then everyone didnt get to the part where people realized that it wasn't finished.

what do you mean people didnt realize that it wasnt finished?

I didn't understand it either. Since neither side gets the point, it is clearly not worth paying attention to.

That failed miserably. Forget this; I'm hungry.

meh...food does sound good...im gonna go cook somptin up

I swear to god. This 12 year old jack nut has no damn life other than to defend a point when he knows that he lost.
Well, i was wondering why this thread hasnt come back up in a while...and i forgot how it ended..and i was readin through some of the post, and took more notice to this than i did before....i know its late...but better late than never...so 'ere goes...

what point am i still trying to defend...for god sakes...my last seven posts above your post have been me hitting on you guys, and accepting an award of being annoyin as if it were an oscar, and about banning me....i think you need to open you eyes and take a look around you...its sad to see someone as ignorant as you are...but someone has to take the role...congrats!

Well, i was wondering why this thread hasnt come back up in a while...and i forgot how it ended..and i was readin through some of the post, and took more notice to this than i did before....i know its late...but better late than never...so 'ere goes...

what point am i still trying to defend...for god sakes...my last seven posts above your post have been me hitting on you guys, and accepting an award of being annoyin as if it were an oscar, and about banning me....i think you need to open you eyes and take a look around you...its sad to see someone as ignorant as you are...but someone has to take the role...congrats!

You were hitting on us?!?! GROSSS!

lol...yes i was...not in a homo way...in a comedic way :D...and cmon...you know you cant resist this sexy body ;)

I was talking about the very few points you DID make not your ranting. Look back in the pages before you decided you were too cool to support your points in your argument.

so why dont you post messages like that when they are needed instead of doing it 3 pages worth of posting after...sounds like your jus gettin mad at me, and looking for anything you can do to try to "show me up"....well..good goin...consider me "showed up"....whew....everyone is jus gettin the best of me....i dont know what to do...

Maybe you should eat a pomegranate. That always cheers me up.

Could someone post something that's relevant to the thread please?

lol...i think the thread has been destroyed...but ill have to try the pomegranate idea...

I posted it then because you said FF is hard if you do everything. That is what I was trying to disprove. If you just read the damn post you would know instead of being such a smart ass.

yay...ME SMART...but wait....why me fail english for?

Perhaps because you didn't capitalise "English."

tee hee he...oh...me gets it now reals good. its English...it aint english though...my teacher will be happy with me now. She will learn me lotsa stuff to go with my new knowledge

its an opinion,

i love final fantasy 7, how can i back it up??? aeris, she made the game, the storyline is hard to follow for younger fans, i first played it when i was only 8 and i didnt really understand it, but i still completed it anyway, the statargy book is only a walk through of the game and basic requermants of how to complete it, going back and playing it again and also looking around the place more will show you a little bit more....a few things you might of missed........some things you click with some you dont...................you obviosly only played the game to kill people and complete it, i play it mostly everyday still now.....completed it about 8 times...........never gets old for me........i love the storyline, just because it doesnt have dramatic twists in it makes it crap??? think about what your saying dude

aeris, she made the game


just because it doesnt have dramatic twists in it makes it crap??? think about what your saying dude

I have to admit that I'm impressed you didn't use Aeris as a "dramatic twist". Anyway, give better examples and think about punctuation and other forms of proper grammar dude.

The graphics, I think, is basically its biggest flaw, but at the time it was the only thing they could give. But the first time i saw the graphics for the cut scense i was amazed (7 years old)

Not true, other games had similar graphics. Read the rest of the thread.

But they were still a major improvement from the previous Final Fantasy games, and they were still some of the best graphics of the time (keyword there is SOME).

Seriously tell me you weren't thinking "wow this looks cool" when you first saw this
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mowlam/junk/temp/three/ff7-midgar-1280x1024.jpe

or when you first saw this you weren't thinking "WOW this looks so much better than the other Final Fantasy's"

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shinu/cvgs/cvgsmac/ff7.gif

Hint: Read the rest of the thread, starting with the very first post.

Not true, other games had similar graphics. Read the rest of the thread.
maybe you should read more carfully, i know other games had similar graphics, that is why i said it was what they could give us at the time in an RPG game, the graphics are not up to par along with your comprehension rate, i know your screen name is rabid monkey but i didnt think it was seriously a discription of yourself.

maybe you should read more carfully, i know other games had similar graphics, that is why i said it was what they could give us at the time in an RPG game, the graphics are not up to par along with your comprehension rate, i know your screen name is rabid monkey but i didnt think it was seriously a discription of yourself.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I said. FFVII wasn't the best graphics at the time. Other games came out before and at the same time as FFVII with better graphics. We have discussed this in this thread already, which is why I told you to go and look in the rest of the thread. You are not offering anything new to the debate.

As for the weak shot at my username, what exactly does it have to do with the debate? I commend you for trying to take attention off of the fact that you don't have a damn clue what you�re talking about, by making fun of me, but it didn't work.

We have discussed this in this thread already

Why would you say that RB? We have discussed EVERYTHING in the tread already. These ppl should stop posting. And take the time that they take to post...to read the thread. It is quite entertaining.

FFVII wasn't the best graphics at the time. Other games came out before and at the same time as FFVII with better graphics.
actually...why dont you list the games. We have discussed one game...which actually was stated that the grapics have aged better...but we did not state that it had better graphics. That game was Blood Omen...now what other games had better graphics? Cuz so far the list is at 0...which is stating an opinion which has no factual evidence which again...you guys depend on sooooo much. I don't really care about it anymore...but im jus gonna help out the guys who need it most...but as of now...im gonna have to ignore that statement until we see some facts to back it up a lil bit.

FF7 is one of teh best uber games around.

Sephiroth and teh Cloud are teh pwnage.

Wow, something from TGR that isn't spam.

I thought that Sephiroth's Nova attack was stupid.

SORRY rabbid monkey, unfortuantly im only 13 so my grammer isnt that of someone with a degree in it. aerises death was needed in the game to spur cloud on, and if she didnt die, the planet would of died, therefore she was going to die with everyone anyway. she died for the planet and it was inevitable she was going to die anyway, (although thats the same as everyone else) but her dieing ment in a way that she loved the planet more than she loved cloud, in a way. well thats all from me once again sorry rabbid monkey im in the lowest set for english so i should be wipping myself due to the fact i forgot to put in capital letters (or maybe i was to lazy to)

Wow, something from TGR that isn't spam.

I thought that Sephiroth's Nova attack was stupid.
actually...i liked it...but that has nuttin 2 do with the thread...

well maybe to him the attack made the game better, it isnt that bad but it does take its time dont it, i nearly fell asleep when it was half way through lol

actually...why dont you list the games. We have discussed one game...which actually was stated that the grapics have aged better...but we did not state that it had better graphics. That game was Blood Omen...now what other games had better graphics? Cuz so far the list is at 0...which is stating an opinion which has no factual evidence which again...you guys depend on sooooo much. I don't really care about it anymore...but im jus gonna help out the guys who need it most...but as of now...im gonna have to ignore that statement until we see some facts to back it up a lil bit.

I don't see why you guys get so hung up on graphics. Rabid Monkey's point was that the graphics weren't any better than the standard at the time. FFVII's graphics were good, yes, but not significantly better than those of most other games that came out at that time. Of course the graphics were better than the earlier FFs; there's a huge difference between the PS and the SNES. But anyway, if you're going to say that FFVII's graphics made it good, then explain why.

SORRY rabbid monkey, unfortuantly im only 13 so my grammer isnt that of someone with a degree in it. aerises death was needed in the game to spur cloud on, and if she didnt die, the planet would of died, therefore she was going to die with everyone anyway. she died for the planet and it was inevitable she was going to die anyway, (although thats the same as everyone else) but her dieing ment in a way that she loved the planet more than she loved cloud, in a way. well thats all from me once again sorry rabbid monkey im in the lowest set for english so i should be wipping myself due to the fact i forgot to put in capital letters (or maybe i was to lazy to)

I covered that in my very first post, actually. Due to my laziness (AKA needing to do more important things than repeat myself), if you want to know what I think about this go ahead and read the thread from the very beginning.

To everyone that hasn�t posted/read anything in this thread: ACTUALLY GO BACK AND READ WHAT WAS SAID. IF YOU CAN�T OFFER ANYTHING NEW THEN DON�T BOTHER POSTING.

"To everyone that hasn�t posted/read anything in this thread: ACTUALLY GO BACK AND READ WHAT WAS SAID. IF YOU CAN�T OFFER ANYTHING NEW THEN DON�T BOTHER POSTING."


Gwahahahaha

I don't see why you guys get so hung up on graphics. Rabid Monkey's point was that the graphics weren't any better than the standard at the time. FFVII's graphics were good, yes, but not significantly better than those of most other games that came out at that time. Of course the graphics were better than the earlier FFs; there's a huge difference between the PS and the SNES. But anyway, if you're going to say that FFVII's graphics made it good, then explain why.

well..graphics...although they dont exactly make a game a great or bad game still have some ruling over it. And it looks like you saying that there were other games that had jus as good graphics as ff7 is a load of shit without proof. Jus cuz you say its true doesnt mean it is. Les see some of this "proof" you guys always want.

Lets see you actually go back and read the two debate threads. Besides, in my very first post I said I wasn�t even going to debate over graphics. That�s a subject other people tore apart. However, I don�t remember who, and seen as you�re the one that is so interested in it, you can go back and look to see who it was. It might even be in the other thread.

geez...you are very much not making much sense..

you complain that the limit system made it too hard and anouying, then you complain the the materia system made it way too easy...@_@

the storyline was great, and was rather complex, but also easy to follow, if it was not easy to follow, then it would be absolutly no fun to play if everything made absolutly no sense...@[email protected] anyway, just because 2 mages got petrfied, and a main character got melted, doesn't mean that these games were better than FFVII, both of those games are good, and so is final fantasy VII.

why do i believe it is a good game? well...

...i just realized that absolutly all of this is personal opinion and is a weird thing to post, because if i were to say the game was well scripted...that would be personal opinion, if i were to say the limit break system was anouying, or the materia system made the game too easy, that too would be personal opinion,even if i were to say that this game was easy to beat, and that the storyline was shallow, that IS personal opinion, (last one) and if i were to argue that the Game had great character design, and that it was FUN to play the game, that is PERSONAL OPINION.

anyway, a majority of this stuff is personal opinion, and i don't really care for much of what this guy is saying...

this post goes to show you that some one can care so much about RPG games that they start up a post to complain about how it "sickens" them that some one has an opinion opposite of theirs on something as dumb a video game...@_@

geez...your (you're)stupid...and very much not making much sense..(�and not making very much sense.� It seems like you�re trying to sound too smart)

you(capitalize the Y) complain that the limit system made it too hard and anouying(annoying), then you complain the the(that the, not the the)materia system made it way too easy...@_@

the (capitalize the T)storyline was great, and was rather complex, but also easy to follow,(period in place of the comma, capitalize the I in �if� after) if it was not easy to follow, then it would be absolutly(absolutely) no fun to play if everything made absolutly(absolutely) no sense...@[email protected] (take out the and, capitalize the A in anyway)anyway, just because 2 mages got petrfied(petrified), and a main character got melted, doesn't mean that these games were better than FFVII, (period in place of the comma, capitalize the B in both)both of those games are good, and so is final fantasy VII(needs a period)

anyway(capitalize the A), a(the, not a) majority of this shit is personal opinion, and i(capitalize the I) don't really care for much of what this guy says(needs a period)

Because you decided to call me stupid, and then not add anything new to the debate, I figured I would fix all the errors for you. The changes that need to be made are in bold.

well, i edited out "stupid", and added some stuff.

but it seems to me that you are now just making fun of my grammer skills and avoiding the topic.

well(capitalize the W), i (capitalize the I)edited out "stupid", (comma is unneeded) and added some stuff.

but (The but isn�t really needed, but it�s not �wrong� to have it there. In any event, the B needs to be capitalized) it seems to me that you are now just making fun of my grammer (grammar) skills and avoiding the topic.

Nah, I just don�t feel like repeating myself.

actually, i very do so remember the other post about graphics...the only thing that was stated with factual evidence was that final fantasy 7 actually did have great graphics for the time...and nothing compared to the resources that were used to create such graphics...and that blood omen's graphics aged better...but didnt have near better graphics than ff7. And no one else had anything intelligent to counter attack any of those points. So, all the garbage that has been posted against ff7's graphics has been nuttin more than shit...to put it bluntly

Not that it matters to me, because I conceded the graphics point from my very first post. After all, I�ve never considered graphics the mark of a good game, and if that�s all it has to go on it�s basically like a picture of a beautiful woman. Sure, it might be nice to look at, but beyond that it�s not of much use.

Anyway, feel free to point me in the direction of the posts. I'm pretty sure more was said about graphics within these two threads than just that, but when I had stopped replying. To put it bluntly, you care a lot more about this thread than I do. :P

http://www.forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?t=17681&page=28&pp=25
half way down the page is where it starts..with my post...then it goes on from there

There were earlier discussions about it, actually. Before you showed up. ;)

Not that it matters because you didn't really "prove" Prak wrong. You based your opinion on about two screenshots from BO and around five (or more) from FFVII, that's not exactly a fair representation of either game.

However, you're still missing the point that both Prak and myself have said, if graphics is the ONLY arguable point (as it seems to be) then there's really no debate at all.

perhaps it wasn't the best ff game, but it was still a good game! btw, i've never player a single other ff title! which is the best one then?

but RM the gameplay graphics in BO are horrible, FF7 takes the cake when it comes to this in this game comparison. Blood Omen may have good cinematics but that doesn't make it graphically superior. FF7 has good cinematics and good gameplay graphics, BO is bad gameplay graphics and good cinematics graphics so BOs overall graphics score an average while FF7s score a good.

And graphics are not are only argument. Storyline, gameplay, and characters are also are arguments we are just not discussing them currently.

BO has bad gameplay graphics? Bullshit. The level of detail in that game was above average at the time. The characters may not have been 3D, but they certainly had more detail than FF7's characters. The sole edge that FF7 had on it in terms of graphics was the pre-rendered backgrounds, which BO could not have had anyway, due to its perspective.

Well 2D games were at their maximum height then and the details there would naturally be extremely crisp and nice. However, the 3D character thing was in its baby stages so FF7 had less crisp charater designs? Okay, tough. It was just a kid!

As for the weak shot at my username, what exactly does it have to do with the debate? I commend you for trying to take attention off of the fact that you don't have a damn clue what you�re talking about, by making fun of me, but it didn't work.

yeah...i'm just going through the debate and finding you make multiple distractions at peoples garmmar, and you had the gul to say that...man...

(talking to rabid monkey)


I think a more accurate way to think about it than (good/bad) and (technically good/technically bad) would be (enjoyable/not enjoyable) and (good/bad).

prak...i would have to say that how fun or "Enjoyable" a game is, is actualy one of the factors of making a game good or bad... actualy, maybe one of the main factors...so...if one of the factors of making a game good or bad involves opinion. then...if a game is good or bad...that is subjective.

the person who started this thread. started it because he did not like playing FFVII. And he kept pointing out factors that made the game not enjoyable for him. and then he complained about how many people did enjoy it.

if i may qoute, he said he was "Sickened by how many fanboys and fangirls" there are...@_@

well..graphics...although they dont exactly make a game a great or bad game still have some ruling over it. And it looks like you saying that there were other games that had jus as good graphics as ff7 is a load of shit without proof. Jus cuz you say its true doesnt mean it is. Les see some of this "proof" you guys always want.

I was thinking that it would go uncontested that FFVII's graphics weren't incredibly revolutionary. Good for their time, yes, but not uncanny. My point was not that other games at the same time had graphics that were just as good. My point was that FFVII didn't have such incredibly amazing graphics for its time that it was completely revolutionary. If you want to argue that it's graphics were that good, then tell me so that I can go and get some proof. Graphics have to be REALLY good to make a game stand out, and I don't think you guys are trying to say that the graphics alone made FFVII stand out.

yeah...i'm just going through the debate and finding you make multiple distractions at peoples garmmar, and you had the gul to say that...man...

(talking to rabid monkey)

Actually, you didn't add anything to the debate, and you called me stupid. If you'll notice, your posts are the only ones I made corrections in. I was justified in what I did because the very first comment you made is that I am stupid, so you don't really have a leg to stand on, buddy. Had you not decided to start your post out the way you did, I would have left it alone. However, you decided to take a personal shot at me, and I retaliated. You quote my response to the other poster (don�t remember his name) as though he didn�t take a personal shot at me to start with. I haven�t made any personal shots at anyone without being provoked first, so basically, don't dish it out if you can't take it and such.

Actually, you didn't add anything to the debate, and you called me stupid. If you'll notice, your posts are the only ones I made corrections in. I was justified in what I did because the very first comment you made is that I am stupid, so you don't really have a leg to stand on, buddy. Had you not decided to start your post out the way you did, I would have left it alone. However, you decided to take a personal shot at me, and I retaliated. You quote my response to the other poster (don�t remember his name) as though he didn�t take a personal shot at me to start with. I haven�t made any personal shots at anyone without being provoked first, so basically, don't dish it out if you can't take it and such.

that guy just used your name to add humour to his post, and it seems to me that your 1 paragraph response to it, was a much bigger distraction.

i decided to edit out stupid because i realized it was a rather immature comment, but i was just blown away that you could bad mouth a game like this so much, and then complain about how other people liked it.

anywho, in the end, i couldn't take it so i stuck it back in the dish.

Ok, guys. You are being warned.

I'm back.

that guy just used your name to add humour to his post, and it seems to me that your 1 paragraph response to it, was a much bigger distraction.

i decided to edit out stupid because i realized it was a rather immature comment, but i was just blown away that you could bad mouth a game like this so much, and then complain about how other people liked it.

anywho, in the end, i couldn't take it so i stuck it back in the dish.

I just made the corrections in your post to add humor to my own. :D

that guy just used your name to add humour to his post, and it seems to me that your 1 paragraph response to it, was a much bigger distraction.

i decided to edit out stupid because i realized it was a rather immature comment, but i was just blown away that you could bad mouth a game like this so much, and then complain about how other people liked it.

anywho, in the end, i couldn't take it so i stuck it back in the dish.

I have bolded the parts that make your opinion into trash. It's completely laughable to suggest that RM was trying to evade the topic, because not a single FFVII fan successfully refuted his very first post. He doesn't HAVE to say anything else because no one has given a good rebuttal. Also, RM never complained about how other people liked it; he complained about how overrated it was and how FFVII fans act so immaturely.

I just made the corrections in your post to add humor to my own. :D
haha, good come back.


I have bolded the parts that make your opinion into trash. It's completely laughable to suggest that RM was trying to evade the topic, because not a single FFVII fan successfully refuted his very first post. He doesn't HAVE to say anything else because no one has given a good rebuttal. Also, RM never complained about how other people liked it; he complained about how overrated it was and how FFVII fans act so immaturely.

actually no. he complained about how many people liked it.
he said:

"That�s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game."

he makes no mention of the Fanboys and Fangrils maturity.

and if something is overrated, that means that lots of people like it when it isn't that great (in his opinion), and if you complain about how many people like it. your complaining about people liking it.

not a single FFVII fan successfully refuted his very first post.

oh dear, i just noticed that sentence. ok, i'm going to go back , and go through that post, step by step, and prove how this whole debate involves opinion. and because you shouldn't put your on opinion into a debate, that would make this etnire thing a dumb debate.

If you try that, every one of us is going to jump in and squash you the same way we've squashed the last dozen or so people who tried to use that same angle. Just FYI.

Also, don't double post.

oh dear, i just noticed that sentence. ok, i'm going to go back , and go through that post, step by step, and prove how this whole debate involves opinion. and because you shouldn't put your on opinion into a debate, that would make this etnire thing a dumb debate.

I'd just like to see you try to have a debate without opinions in it. Such a thing does not exist. In a debate, you state your opinion and give factual evidence to support it. If there's no opinion, there's nothing to prove.

Also, when RM referred to fanboys, he didn't mean just people who like the game. In that case, I am a "fanboy," and I'm actually arguing against the game. What RM meant by fanboys was people who obsess over the game and people who just came in here and attemted to say that RM, Smokey, and Prak are just trying to force their opinions on everyone and then resorted to name-calling. Just look through the thread. Look at how some of the fanboys and fangirls have behaved themselves. THAT is what RM was talking about, not about people liking the game.

First of all, let me state that when this game came out it was the sole reason for me getting a Playstation. I had been neglecting getting the new system because the SNES was all I really needed for entertainment at that point. However, Square made the jump to the �next generation� of consoles via Sony, and that meant that if I wanted to continue to play one of the best (no, not the best, ONE of the best) video game series I had to shell out the money. I�ll admit, when I first played FFVII I was overwhelmed with the dramatic difference graphics wise. I would be foolish to argue against FFVII being the visually superior game to its predecessors. The fact is that the earlier FFs can�t hold a candle to it graphics wise in many regards, but they shouldn�t be able to in ANY way because the Playstation is just a much more powerful console then the NES and the SNES.

this part, is not opinion, this is just fact.


However, that is where the superiority of FFVII to the earlier Final Fantasies ends. The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don�t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it.

now we get into opinion. you see, i did not find it weak at all, there are many twists and turns in the game, when i first played it, i had no idea Cait Sith was working for Shinra, and Aries death was shocking to me. when this guy played it, he must of been pyschic. but because he knew the future, the story line was shallow too him. if this guy thought it was shallow, and i thought it wasn't..and if this is fact...then..we are in a strange paradox. how can there be 2 opposing facts about the same thing? there can't, thats why it is opinion.


A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I�m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven�t played it).

how? Aries died to save the planet, and those 2 mages died to save the party. whats the difference here? he might of thought it was not as much of a shock, but thats cause he is psychic, and once more, its opinion.


Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger).

at least he agrees with me here, he sayed it is "no more distraught" , but even thoguh our opinions agree, its still opinion.


FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story.

its as shallow as a good movie can be, unless you want some stuff hidden so that you might not find out some part of the story. @_@. there really isn't much else methods of expressing the story line, besides conversation. and it does have twists and turns, and thats about all you can hope for.

actually..there is a few hidden parts of the story line. if you don't get vincent, you wouldn't figure out who Sephiroths mother was, and if you didn't go behind that waterfall, you wouldn't figure out how it happened.

..but anyways, i thought it was a good storyline, and thats my opinion.


Ok, so it was not innovative as far as the story goes, what about the battle and materia system you ask?

It is pretty much a given that the battle system was not new at all. Just about every single Final Fantasy (or even RPG for that matter) had followed a similar formula before that, and I would hope that no one would argue that point further.

yes, this is true, it was not that inovative, that is a fact, but that still doesn't make it any less of a good game (in my opinion, he might be an odd one that <B>only</B> likes games that are new and innovative)


Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called �innovative�. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your �limit� you are no longer able to use the �fight� command. This makes it a pain to save the limit. You either use another command or skip your turn. Later on in the game this might not be a huge problem due to the fact that more command materia becomes available. However, in the early stages you pretty much have 4 options: use your limit, use magic, use an item, or skip that character�s turn. Using magic would not be a smart idea because then you may not have it for later battles when you really need it, the same holds true for using an item. Using your limit is often times undesirable because it means you will just be using it on an enemy you could much easier defeat by attacking normally, and skipping turns is always a horrid choice because you�re basically brought down to a 2-person party. This is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. I repeat, this is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. What is the limit system then? Flawed. Even later in the game your characters shouldn�t HAVE to have another command that they can use in order to not worry about using their limit.

well, this is even more opinion. He Believes that it is Flawed. but what if the game designers did that to add more of a challenge to playing. i had no problam with the limit system. it was fine. i will admit i had to deal with saving it. but thats whats called a CHALLENGE.

ok he says it is not a mark of a challenge game....then why do you have a problem with it? what makes it anouying if it isn't a challenge? what he calls a flaw is what i call a challenge.


As for the materia system, it�s not a bad system, but I don�t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game. The only thing that is really unique about any one member of the party is their limit breaks, which I already discussed. Besides, there isn�t really anything �unique� about the limits anyway, but I digress. As said, the materia system makes the game far too easy by allowing every character to use every command and spell in the game.

yeah, but the game is still a challenge, you have a limited amount of slots, so you can't learn EVERY ability in the game. it just allows you to take ablitys that some one else has, and give it to the character your using

i liked it because it allowed me to pick favorites, and i got to use my favorite characters with the right abilitys.

but still it was his opinion that it was less of a challenge.


If you want a real challenge then you need a game where each character has unique abilities that are melded with the rest of the party in order to make a fully functioning unit. NOT a system where every damn member of the party can have the exact same materia and just flick away any enemy you see without any effort. That�s not a challenge game, that�s a game being made for simpletons.

before i go on. you said you didn't bash final fantasy fans, but right there you called them simpletons.

anywho. you said that every damn member can have the exact same materia. almost true, like spells, and command materia can be bought, but materia that matters in big battles, are usualy summons, which are uniqe.

also, they can not be a functioning unit if not all of your characters are in the battle. i don't know if you got to battle with all you characters in FFV or FFVI,and all the other classics. but thats not a functioning unit, if your white mage is off somewhere else, and you need to cure some one, or if you black mage is off somewhere else, and your going against am guy that is weak against magic, then that isn't a functioning unit, thats a disaster waiting to happen.

in final fantasy 7 you only get 3, count 'em, 3. and this system replaces the missing characters by giving the characters you have more functions.

anyway, thats what i think, its does not make the game any easier, or any harder.


There was nothing new about the gameplay other than the fact that the camera angle could be changed on the world map, which just goes back to the graphics and �visually appealing� comments I made before, so I won�t bother touching on that.

So, with all that said you�re probably thinking something along the line of �yeah, well it�s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!� The answer to that is simple. First of all, the game was marketed to all hell. It was the first Final Fantasy, or role playing game for that matter, that I remember actually seeing ads for on the TV. There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII. Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV. It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG�s or had the mindset of �RPG�s are for nerds�. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.

this is true at the begining. all games are easy at the beginging, so that when someone new to it starts playing, they can get used to it. later in the game, bad guys get harder, and puzzles get harder.

this game was marketed more than the others, but i don't think square would of done this for no reason, they probably saw something in the game, an thought it was worth advertising.

advertising is what reeled me in. but what made me like the game, was the gameplay and how fun it was to play. you obviously didn't enjoy this game at all. i did. thats i why i believe it is a good game, and you believe its a bad game because you did not enjoy playing it. and thats really all there is too it.


As if that weren�t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn�t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game. Just flip from page to page until the game was done.

yeah....that has nothing to do with the game play of the game, i personaly have never used any strategy guide while playing that game, thats only because i believe if you use a strategy guide, your basicaly cheating. and it takes all the fun out of the game.

yeah, but that was an odd thing you decided to throguh in, has nothing to do with making it a bad game, or a good game.


For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn�t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn�t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own. Then a family member got me one just because, I still don�t know why. I decided I might as well go back through with it and see if there was anything I missed. Know what I missed? Two treasure chests. One had a Phoenix Down in it and the other had an Elixir. I hope that will serve as proof that you do not need a strategy guide to play this game because it IS NOT a hard game to play.

yeah...thats called showing off...or rather insulting people who did use it. some people did have a problem playing the game. it may be in a subtle way, but it was an insulting comment, not needed.

technically it is a fact that you don't need a strategy guide to play the game, but if some one is stuck real bad, it is a useful tool, and it is also your opinion that you don't "need" it, because some people did.


Now, back to what I was saying. Because the game was incredibly easy to play/beat, had a very shallow story line (making it very easy to follow), was marketed more than any game previously, and had graphics that were superior to anything at the time (which helped cover up the crappiness of the game), Final Fantasy VII was a huge success. This game was <I>not</I> a smash hit due to being a good game, because it wasn�t a good game. It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That�s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you�re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series.


wow! this entire ending paragraph is all opinion.

I thought it was a decent game (actualy better). we are back to that paradox again, 2 opposing facts. how is this possible?

anyway, how do you define a good game? is it how enjoyabe a game is? or the quality of it?

the only way you can argue about the quality, would be the graphics. and he already addmited that the graphics were superior to other games at the time. so then he must be talking about how enjoyable the game was.

yes folks, he is. but i enjoyed the game, and he didn't, and he wants me to believe its a fact that this game was not enjoyable. he is not going to sway my opinion. do you know why? because i have played the game, and i have discovered that i enjoyed the game.

this entire thing is like a reveiw. only its a reveiw about something we have already played. do you know why i read reveiws? because i want to know if i should play that game or not, see if its bad or good. and once i play the game, i make my own opinion about it.

I'm not sure what he wants to accomplish by this thread. no ones opinion will be swayed. they have already played the game, and have already made their opinion.


I'd just like to see you try to have a debate without opinions in it. Such a thing does not exist. In a debate, you state your opinion and give factual evidence to support it. If there's no opinion, there's nothing to prove.

Also, when RM referred to fanboys, he didn't mean just people who like the game. In that case, I am a "fanboy," and I'm actually arguing against the game. What RM meant by fanboys was people who obsess over the game and people who just came in here and attemted to say that RM, Smokey, and Prak are just trying to force their opinions on everyone and then resorted to name-calling. Just look through the thread. Look at how some of the fanboys and fangirls have behaved themselves. THAT is what RM was talking about, not about people liking the game.

what i ment by opinion, was that, you can't just say "the limit system was flawed". there is no way to back that up, i enjoyed the limit system, i didn't believe it was flawed. a better word then opinion, might be "subjective".

i agree, its good in your beliefs to share them, but the way you worded it was as if you wanted to convince people it wasnt a good game

My point, clanotheduck, was that a debate is entirely based on subjective opinions. The way you debate is to give facts to support your opinion. Actually, I'm not criticising you for that last post because it was the best post in favor of FFVII I've seen in quite a while. The most important thing for you to remember in a debate is to be open-minded and understand that both sides are right about at least something (in most cases.) Oh my, this might actually become a debate again.

now we get into opinion. you see, i did not find it weak at all, there are many twists and turns in the game, when i first played it, i had no idea Cait Sith was working for Shinra, and Aries death was shocking to me. when this guy played it, he must of been pyschic. but because he knew the future, the story line was shallow too him. if this guy thought it was shallow, and i thought it wasn't..and if this is fact...then..we are in a strange paradox. how can there be 2 opposing facts about the same thing? there can't, thats why it is opinion.

For one thing, some opinions are better than others. Some people put more thought into their opinions and have stronger justifications for them. Case in point: Is the opinion of a person who arbitrarily decides that Cleveland is the earthly manifestation of God equal to the opinion of a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist? Of course not.

Now, continuing on, I knew Cait Sith was working for Shinra straight away because of how forceful his introduction was. Aeris' death was heavily foreshadowed, so I had given her about 50/50 odds of surviving the game. Naturally, I was not shocked when she died.


how? Aries died to save the planet, and those 2 mages died to save the party. whats the difference here? he might of thought it was not as much of a shock, but thats cause he is psychic, and once more, its opinion.

Did she die to save the planet? Did her death even matter? People are constantly disputing that on this very forum. The game didn't give enough information to come up with a definitive answer, so saying that is just silly fanboyism.


its as shallow as a good movie can be, unless you want some stuff hidden so that you might not find out some part of the story. @_@. there really isn't much else methods of expressing the story line, besides conversation. and it does have twists and turns, and thats about all you can hope for.

Of course the story is largely going to be told through dialogue. However, the game's dialogue was so unambiguous that you had to give it no thought at all. Instead of developing, big chunks of the plot were just dropped in your lap. It's a cheap shortcut in the writing.


well, this is even more opinion. He Believes that it is Flawed. but what if the game designers did that to add more of a challenge to playing. i had no problam with the limit system. it was fine. i will admit i had to deal with saving it. but thats whats called a CHALLENGE.

That makes no sense. Any sane designer would make a game challenging by normal means, not by making an unnecessarily frustrating system. A limit break is supposed to be a special attack your characters build up, sort of like a reward. But what kind of reward limits your options?


ok he says it is not a mark of a challenge game....then why do you have a problem with it? what makes it anouying if it isn't a challenge? what he calls a flaw is what i call a challenge.

The problem is that it's an unnecessary annoyance that makes no sense at all in context of the gameplay.


yeah, but the game is still a challenge, you have a limited amount of slots, so you can't learn EVERY ability in the game. it just allows you to take ablitys that some one else has, and give it to the character your using

You forgot to add, "Thereby removing all individual value from your characters." There is absolutely no reason to use more than the same three characters throughout most of the game. The other characters are just along for the ride. Very bad design.


i liked it because it allowed me to pick favorites, and i got to use my favorite characters with the right abilitys.

I hated it because all the characters should be useful, but it made the ones I preferred less completely worthless.


but still it was his opinion that it was less of a challenge.

Are you trying to say that having to carefully select your party and work within the limitations of that selection would NOT be more challenging? If so, you should pack your bags and go home now, because that will completely ruin your credibility.


before i go on. you said you didn't bash final fantasy fans, but right there you called them simpletons.

Don't distort what people say please. He said the game was designed for simpletons, not that the people who liked it are simpletons. There is a difference, although the behavior of many FF7 fans in this thread has made it a bit blurry.


anywho. you said that every damn member can have the exact same materia. almost true, like spells, and command materia can be bought, but materia that matters in big battles, are usualy summons, which are uniqe.

Never mind the fact that a mastered materia spawns another just like it?


also, they can not be a functioning unit if not all of your characters are in the battle. i don't know if you got to battle with all you characters in FFV or FFVI,and all the other classics. but thats not a functioning unit, if your white mage is off somewhere else, and you need to cure some one, or if you black mage is off somewhere else, and your going against am guy that is weak against magic, then that isn't a functioning unit, thats a disaster waiting to happen.

That is a challenge. Party selection is important in those games, unlike FF7.


anyway, thats what i think, its does not make the game any easier, or any harder.

As I have shown, you're dead wrong.


this is true at the begining. all games are easy at the beginging, so that when someone new to it starts playing, they can get used to it. later in the game, bad guys get harder, and puzzles get harder.

Start to finish, there was no challenge in FF7. If anything, it got easier as the game progressed.


this game was marketed more than the others, but i don't think square would of done this for no reason, they probably saw something in the game, an thought it was worth advertising.

Actually, they just had money to invest in advertising, which in turn sold more units. That's how businesses work.


advertising is what reeled me in. but what made me like the game, was the gameplay and how fun it was to play. you obviously didn't enjoy this game at all. i did. thats i why i believe it is a good game, and you believe its a bad game because you did not enjoy playing it. and thats really all there is too it.

You liking it doesn't make it good. Ever seen the movie Kull the Conqueror? I loved it. That doesn't change the fact that it's an absolutely terrible movie.


yeah....that has nothing to do with the game play of the game, i personaly have never used any strategy guide while playing that game, thats only because i believe if you use a strategy guide, your basicaly cheating. and it takes all the fun out of the game.

That has to do with the game's popularity though.


yeah...thats called showing off...or rather insulting people who did use it. some people did have a problem playing the game. it may be in a subtle way, but it was an insulting comment, not needed.

Bullshit. There was nothing insulting in his post. He was making a point about how easy the game was. Nothing more.


technically it is a fact that you don't need a strategy guide to play the game, but if some one is stuck real bad, it is a useful tool, and it is also your opinion that you don't "need" it, because some people did.

No one "needed" it. Any idiot can go from point A to point B, especially with the way the game spelled it out so clearly. The only way it could really help someone would be by pointing out the things they missed along the way, which were hardly needed to finish it.


I thought it was a decent game (actualy better). we are back to that paradox again, 2 opposing facts. how is this possible?

Read my little note at the beginning of this post on the value of opinions.


anyway, how do you define a good game? is it how enjoyabe a game is? or the quality of it?

Quality of design is the mark of a truly good game because it is constant. Enjoyability is a variable.


the only way you can argue about the quality, would be the graphics. and he already addmited that the graphics were superior to other games at the time. so then he must be talking about how enjoyable the game was.

So never mind the numerous arguments against its design quality? -10 credibility points for you.


yes folks, he is. but i enjoyed the game, and he didn't, and he wants me to believe its a fact that this game was not enjoyable. he is not going to sway my opinion. do you know why? because i have played the game, and i have discovered that i enjoyed the game.

Or perhaps he didn't care about swaying your opinion in the first place. Perhaps he only wanted to show that opinions and facts aren't always the same.


this entire thing is like a reveiw. only its a reveiw about something we have already played. do you know why i read reveiws? because i want to know if i should play that game or not, see if its bad or good. and once i play the game, i make my own opinion about it.

I'm not sure what he wants to accomplish by this thread. no ones opinion will be swayed. they have already played the game, and have already made their opinion.

Bend over and spread your cheeks so people like Chorns can have their way with you.


what i ment by opinion, was that, you can't just say "the limit system was flawed". there is no way to back that up, i enjoyed the limit system, i didn't believe it was flawed.

It was backed up nicely, thank you.

-

You see, THAT is what separates Prak from the fanboys.

Prak just omnislashed his post.

For one thing, some opinions are better than others. Some people put more thought into their opinions and have stronger justifications for them. Case in point: Is the opinion of a person who arbitrarily decides that Cleveland is the earthly manifestation of God equal to the opinion of a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist? Of course not.

i obviously agree, but all i ment by opinion is, you can't argue about which food taste better, or something else "truely" subjective.


Now, continuing on, I knew Cait Sith was working for Shinra straight away because of how forceful his introduction was. Aeris' death was heavily foreshadowed, so I had given her about 50/50 odds of surviving the game. Naturally, I was not shocked when she died.

thats nice, but still proves nothing. just because you are intuitive, and i am not, doesn't mean that it was a shallow storyline, this might be hard to believe, but the shallowness of a storyline is subjective to the player.

if a genius alien came down and saw one of the hardest to understand, multilayered movies on the planet, and then said "oh i saw this part coming a mile away! what a shallow story line!" would that change the fact, that to you, it was a "good" quality movie? i doubt it.


Did she die to save the planet? Did her death even matter? People are constantly disputing that on this very forum. The game didn't give enough information to come up with a definitive answer, so saying that is just silly fanboyism.

well, even if her death was in vain, that doesn't prove that the other was more shocking or even sader. for an event to be sad, or to be shocking, the person playing the game has to have made a connection with the game, and started treating it like a good movie. RM had obviously decided the game was dumb before he got to that point, so he personaly decided that it wasn't that sad or shocking.

that section of his debate was not fact, or even debatable opinion. its the same as which chocolate taste better? Hershey...or some other leading chocolate brand. just another subjective part of that post.




Of course the story is largely going to be told through dialogue. However, the game's dialogue was so unambiguous that you had to give it no thought at all. Instead of developing, big chunks of the plot were just dropped in your lap. It's a cheap shortcut in the writing.

this part i extremly disagree with. they didn't just lay the story flat out, or tell you part of the story first, and tell you the other half later.

you can call anything "big chunks", but it if start to get more that 5 "big chunks", then your starting to reveal the story slowly and making it a nice plot.

for instance, at the begining, all you know is that (1) Mako Energy is made from the life stream of the earth, and Mako Reactors and sucking up the life stream, and soon the planet will die. An then later in the Shinra Building, you found out that (2) sepiroth was a top member of SOILDER and that he obviously went crazy (being you find the president of shinra dead). Later (3) Cloud tells the gang about what happened to make him go crazy. After that point, as you travel, you believe that sephiroth is a clone of JENOVA and that he is going to take him and his "mother" to the Promised Land. Later on, if you get Vincent, you find out that (4) Jenova is not Sephiroths "mother" and he wasn't created like the rest of those monsters in those cases, Vincent Knew Sehiroths real mother ( I forgot her name). (5) In the Temple of the Ancients, you find out that Sephiroth is not going to the "Promised Land" but he plans to summon Meteor to create a wound in the Planet, large enough to suck up a ton of "Life Energy" so that some how he becomes this powerful being (i forget how, lol).(6) When you go to north Crater and some stuff happens and cloud has a mid life crisis and lots of other stuff (started to get tired listing the details) (7) Then when you get the submarine (or breed a blue, balck, or gold Chocobo) you find out that Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells while still in the whomb, being that he wasn't an actual clone of Jenova, but more like other members of SOILDER (all members of SOILDER are injected with jenova cells, although not in the whomb.)...and some other stuff that really has to do with vincent more that the storyline.(i really haven't played the game in a while, sorry if some of this stuff is a bit mixed up).

now tell how this is received in "big Chunks" through out the game, they slowly let you on to the story one peice at a time.

at least thats what i think, you might say these are "big Chunks" but i disagree.


That makes no sense. Any sane designer would make a game challenging by normal means, not by making an unnecessarily frustrating system. A limit break is supposed to be a special attack your characters build up, sort of like a reward. But what kind of reward limits your options?

Please define "flawed". if something is "flawed" then there is a problem with it. i had no problem with it. i played through out the game fine, with out a problem, so then... i guess its not flawed...at least for me.

I agree that it is a reward. Compared to the other game, it would be nice to be able to save your limit for later, but in this game, your supoused to just use your limit when it comes. if the other games didn't exsist, you would be thinking these limits are pretty cool, and a nice reward. it may not be as good of a reward as the other ones, but its still a nice reward.



You forgot to add, "Thereby removing all individual value from your characters." There is absolutely no reason to use more than the same three characters throughout most of the game. The other characters are just along for the ride. Very bad design.

This is true that it removes the value of each character, but it doesn't make the design any worse. Just because it has a bit different of a style, does not make it worse.


I hated it because all the characters should be useful, but it made the ones I preferred less completely worthless.

who says thats the way it "should" be? once more, its a just a bit different of a style.


Are you trying to say that having to carefully select your party and work within the limitations of that selection would NOT be more challenging? If so, you should pack your bags and go home now, because that will completely ruin your credibility.

lol

Materia selection has replaced character selection in FFVII.

you have to strategically pick out the right materia for battle, rather than strategically picking out your characters for battle.

it will not make it anymore challenging to have to pick out the right characters, than picking out the right materia, there i said it, now if this ruins my credibility or not, we shall see.


Don't distort what people say please. He said the game was designed for simpletons, not that the people who liked it are simpletons. There is a difference, although the behavior of many FF7 fans in this thread has made it a bit blurry.

well, he just said that anyone who has said that the game was hard, was a simpleton. cause if it was designed for simpletons, then i must be simpleton, considering i thought the game was hard to beat.

its not called distorting, its called connecting the dots.


Never mind the fact that a mastered materia spawns another just like it?

i never actuly got to the point that i mastered a summon, but that would be odd if it spawned another. and if the others spawned, i personaly don't care weather you got the materia from the store or if it was spwaned.


That is a challenge. Party selection is important in those games, unlike FF7.
Materia Selection is Important in FFVII, unlike the other ones.



As I have shown, you're dead wrong.

dido


Start to finish, there was no challenge in FF7. If anything, it got easier as the game progressed.

lol, now that is just bullshit. you are now just trying to look cool, cause you think you are on a roll. the game did not get easier as it progressed.

as the story line, the difficulty of a game is subjective to the player.


Actually, they just had money to invest in advertising, which in turn sold more units. That's how businesses work.

yes, it did sell more units, but did you have people giving it bad reveiws? even though you people didn't enjoy it, there are alot of people out there who could make a religion off of this game, meaning the majority believes its a great game! it didn't get popular because of advertising, it got popular because people loved it!


You liking it doesn't make it good. Ever seen the movie Kull the Conqueror? I loved it. That doesn't change the fact that it's an absolutely terrible movie.

what made it a bad movie? and then what made you enjoy it? please elaborate, sounds like an odd oxymoron to me.


That has to do with the game's popularity though.

ah yes, thank you. good to admit mistakes before they turn into a problem later.


Bullshit. There was nothing insulting in his post. He was making a point about how easy the game was. Nothing more.

ugh...once more. the difficulty of a game is subjective to the player. and those who had a problem playing it, are going to be insulted by that comment.


No one "needed" it. Any idiot can go from point A to point B, especially with the way the game spelled it out so clearly. The only way it could really help someone would be by pointing out the things they missed along the way, which were hardly needed to finish it.

i do agree that its a dumb thing to have, but some people do have a problem, there is no way around that. some people DID have a problem playing it.


Read my little note at the beginning of this post on the value of opinions.

i did, and i have displayed my thoughts about.


Quality of design is the mark of a truly good game because it is constant. Enjoyability is a variable.

ok, he already admited that the graphics are better. so are you talking about the script? well i enjoyed the script. very indepth. you may say the opposite, but then we are back into subjective matters. enjoyability is one of the main factors of making a game good or not.


So never mind the numerous arguments against its design quality? -10 credibility points for you.

hah! clever, you made a point system. good for you. but seriously, all the other matters are all subjective, you can say that the sript was bad, but i disagree, it was a good qaulity game script, you may say that the battle system was bad, but that is only cause you didn't enjoy playing it, you were used to the old ones, and kept comparing it to them, i loved the battle system, extremely FUN to play! so wether the battle system is good or not must be part of the "enjoyability variable".


Or perhaps he didn't care about swaying your opinion in the first place. Perhaps he only wanted to show that opinions and facts aren't always the same.

wow, than we must have the same goal, but actually in one of these posts with that "unseen" fellow who said RM wouldn't sway anyones opinion. RM said "i'm sure many peoples opinions have been swayed, they just haven't talked up about it" or something to that effect.


Bend over and spread your cheeks so people like Chorns can have their way with you.

i know your just trying to look cool, but please elaborate when you have a come back. don't just post something like that. express the meaning of it.


It was backed up nicely, thank you.

no it wasn't...i have stated that i enjoyed it, and had no problem with it, so does that make it not flawed? RM had a problem and decided to call it "flawed". but he was compareing it to the older games. its a fine system.

what

You see, THAT is what separates Prak from the fanboys.

what? you mean going in depth into a post and trying to disprove it step by step? the same thing i did to the first post?

i still dont get you

lol, thank you for your comic relief

your just like yuffie annoying

your just like yuffie annoying

please explain yourself? are trying to be serious about this thing? does my post truly blow your mind?

and if something is overrated, that means that lots of people like it when it isn't that great (in his opinion),
Oh goodie, such a stupid remark for me to get back into the groove of things with.

No, that's not what overrated means. FFVII was one of the first games to feature these oh so great 3-D graphics for the Playstation. They were good at the time, but that's not what made it so overrated. Sony and Square were looking to make sure that the Playstation made a huge bang in it's early sales, so they started advertising the heck out of the game and covering it in just about every magazine you can possibly think of. What you are basically saying, is that a lot of people liked FFVII, even though he/she didn't think it was a great game. You keep saying that it's such a wonderful game, and then you go and say something like this. Overrated means simply this:

A game that is hyped and advertised to such a degree, that it vastly disappoints the masses when it gets released.


and if you complain about how many people like it. your complaining about people liking it.
And if you complain about how many people don't like it, you're complaining about people not liking it. Seriously, do you realize what you just said?


and because you shouldn't put your on opinion into a debate, that would make this etnire thing a dumb debate.
Why are so many people stupid about this? The ENTIRE point of a debate is for people to share their opinion and to tell us why they believe what they do. It is impossible to have a debate without an opinion. Period.


when i first played it, i had no idea Cait Sith was working for Shinra,
You had no idea? I had a pretty good feeling that it was, and I got this feeling soon after Cait joined up with me. I can't really give you direct quotes from the game, but some of the stuff he said and how he acted made me think that way. It's like Square was trying to tell you something was up, but they did it in the wrong way and totally gave it away.


and Aries death was shocking to me.
Again, there wasn't anything memorable about her death. I knew that she was going to die, because when she is there all by herself and all of a sudden Cloud and company shows up, something is going to happen. When she was killed, I thought "Well I knew that was coming".


how? Aries died to save the planet, and those 2 mages died to save the party. whats the difference here? he might of thought it was not as much of a shock, but thats cause he is psychic, and once more, its opinion.
Oh wow, you are bringing up one of my older points?

Aeris did not die to save the planet, she was killed. Palom and Porom killed themselves personally in order to save the party. That's the difference right there. All Aeris' death did was made Sephiroth's blade a little less sharp.


there really isn't much else methods of expressing the story line, besides conversation.
Oh believe me there are more than just words out of a character's mouth. I seriously hope that you figure some out before you ask me what they are.


and it does have twists and turns, and thats about all you can hope for.
I want to see the proof. Show me the factual evidence that there are in fact twists and turns in the game.


actually..there is a few hidden parts of the story line. if you don't get vincent, you wouldn't figure out who Sephiroths mother was, and if you didn't go behind that waterfall, you wouldn't figure out how it happened.
You continue to say that there are a 'few' hidden parts and 'many' twists and turns, when you can only name one. If you go into the waterfall, what you find out isn't anything worth mentioning to the storyline. It adds absolutely nothing and solves absolutely nothing.


He Believes that it is Flawed. but what if the game designers did that to add more of a challenge to playing. i had no problam with the limit system. it was fine. i will admit i had to deal with saving it. but thats whats called a CHALLENGE.
If a gaming company has to make a certain aspect of the game flawed to give some challenge to the game, then that is the mark of a game that doesn't have a terrible amount of good qualities to begin with.


ok he says it is not a mark of a challenge game....then why do you have a problem with it? what makes it anouying if it isn't a challenge? what he calls a flaw is what i call a challenge.
Yeah I know you aren't talking to me specifically, but I'll answer it still.

What makes the Materia System annoying is the fact that any one of your characters is capable of being the strongest in terms of physical or magical damage. Just load Tifa with Materia that boosts up her strength and watch out! Give Cid all the Materia that skyrockets magical damage and you have a deadly character. All of your characters shouldn't be capable of doing the same exact damage in battle, that's what makes it so crappy and annoying. Also, more along the lines of annoying; the more materia you equip usually means the more HP and strength you lose. So you would have to go out and fight to get more Exp. that you originally thought about doing. Oh yeah you got the Knights of the Round? So now after doing all that hard work, your next reward is that you can go fight for a couple of hours just to get back all that HP and strength that you lose when you equip it!


if your white mage is off somewhere else, and you need to cure some one, or if you black mage is off somewhere else, and your going against am guy that is weak against magic, then that isn't a functioning unit, thats a disaster waiting to happen.
That's what I really liked about the earlier Final Fantasy games. All your characters were pre-determined to fill a specific role, such as Healer or White Mage or Black Mage, etc. But in FFVII, any character could be designated as the one that heals the party. Any character could deal massive magical damage and become a Black Mage; all you have to do is push a few buttons here and there and voala! Materia equipped!

Meh, this is enough from me for now. I don't feel like shredding other points at the moment.

Oh goodie, such a stupid remark for me to get back into the groove of things with.

No, that's not what overrated means. FFVII was one of the first games to feature these oh so great 3-D graphics for the Playstation. They were good at the time, but that's not what made it so overrated. Sony and Square were looking to make sure that the Playstation made a huge bang in it's early sales, so they started advertising the heck out of the game and covering it in just about every magazine you can possibly think of. What you are basically saying, is that a lot of people liked FFVII, even though he/she didn't think it was a great game. You keep saying that it's such a wonderful game, and then you go and say something like this. Overrated means simply this:

A game that is hyped and advertised to such a degree, that it vastly disappoints the masses when it gets released.

well, if thats the case, then this game isn't overrated, please provide proof that the masses were vastly dissapointed, there is still a large fanbase for it, and lots of people still believe it to be one of the greatest games of all time, then it wasn't overrated.



And if you complain about how many people don't like it, you're complaining about people not liking it. Seriously, do you realize what you just said?

thank you for taking it out of context. i was just making the wording slowy be the same as something i said earlier to prove a point.


Why are so many people stupid about this? The ENTIRE point of a debate is for people to share their opinion and to tell us why they believe what they do. It is impossible to have a debate without an opinion. Period.

i have already responded to a statement similar to this, just read back on these few pages.



You had no idea? I had a pretty good feeling that it was, and I got this feeling soon after Cait joined up with me. I can't really give you direct quotes from the game, but some of the stuff he said and how he acted made me think that way. It's like Square was trying to tell you something was up, but they did it in the wrong way and totally gave it away.

prak said the exact same thing. once more, go back and reveiw what i said in reponse.


Again, there wasn't anything memorable about her death. I knew that she was going to die, because when she is there all by herself and all of a sudden Cloud and company shows up, something is going to happen. When she was killed, I thought "Well I knew that was coming".

same as the other two. i already responded to this.


Oh wow, you are bringing up one of my older points?

Aeris did not die to save the planet, she was killed. Palom and Porom killed themselves personally in order to save the party. That's the difference right there. All Aeris' death did was made Sephiroth's blade a little less sharp.

ugh...already responded to this aswell.


Oh believe me there are more than just words out of a character's mouth. I seriously hope that you figure some out before you ask me what they are.

...Pictures? wtf are you talking about?



I want to see the proof. Show me the factual evidence that there are in fact twists and turns in the game.

you thought that Cloud was a high member of SOILDER and was war buddys with Sephiroth, then you find out that Cloud was not apart of SOILDER, his memories just merged with Zack's. that is one, there are more though.

were you hoping for one of your main characters to betray you or something....oh wait, one did. @_@


You continue to say that there are a 'few' hidden parts and 'many' twists and turns, when you can only name one. If you go into the waterfall, what you find out isn't anything worth mentioning to the storyline. It adds absolutely nothing and solves absolutely nothing.

eh. it tells you a bit more about sephiroth. its not needed, but that would be dumb if needed information was hidden.

i've named many twist and turns.


If a gaming company has to make a certain aspect of the game flawed to give some challenge to the game, then that is the mark of a game that doesn't have a terrible amount of good qualities to begin with.

ack. the game designers probably weren't thinking "i know, i'll make the limit system flawed to make it harder!" i have already said, its not flawed, but a different style than the classics, and it seems that you guys just can't handle that. @_@



Yeah I know you aren't talking to me specifically, but I'll answer it still.

What makes the Materia System annoying is the fact that any one of your characters is capable of being the strongest in terms of physical or magical damage. Just load Tifa with Materia that boosts up her strength and watch out! Give Cid all the Materia that skyrockets magical damage and you have a deadly character. All of your characters shouldn't be capable of doing the same exact damage in battle, that's what makes it so crappy and annoying. Also, more along the lines of annoying; the more materia you equip usually means the more HP and strength you lose. So you would have to go out and fight to get more Exp. that you originally thought about doing. Oh yeah you got the Knights of the Round? So now after doing all that hard work, your next reward is that you can go fight for a couple of hours just to get back all that HP and strength that you lose when you equip it!

dude, in the same paragraph, you just argued why the materia system was easy, and then you argued about how it was hard...@_@

but thanks for that idea to argue about. you see, you can't just eqiup all the materia and go 'watch out world! here i come" because it will bring you HP down, and your strength down. and if you actualy notice in the game, there are characters that suck at attacks in the first place, so it hints you to give a majority of the materia to them. and actualy, in the end, picking out characters does matter in FFVII, for reasons i just stated in this paragraph.


That's what I really liked about the earlier Final Fantasy games. All your characters were pre-determined to fill a specific role, such as Healer or White Mage or Black Mage, etc. But in FFVII, any character could be designated as the one that heals the party. Any character could deal massive magical damage and become a Black Mage; all you have to do is push a few buttons here and there and voala! Materia equipped!

your point?, you are correct, but does this make the game design anyworse?

you would have to be stupid to pack every one with 1 certain kind of materia, and then later you will be wanting the other kind. so if anything, materia selection might be harder for your tiny minds. rather than just taking what you receive, you actualy have to startigicaly pick out the right materia for battle.

Meh, this is enough from me for now. I don't feel like shredding other points at the moment.

lost of these points have already been "shredded" by prak, and i have already responded.

well, if thats the case, then this game isn't overrated, please provide proof that the masses were vastly dissapointed, there is still a large fanbase for it, and lots of people still believe it to be one of the greatest games of all time, then it wasn't overrated.
I could ask you to provide proof that it wasn't overrated, but you wouldn't be able to say anything other than it has a big fanbase. Overrating something can either have something to do with a big fanbase, or just a game that is supposed to be excellent but isn't quite nearly as good as the makers of the game made it out to be. I'll concede the fact that FFVII does have a pretty good size fanbase, but with all these several spin-offs that have come off lately, that's the main reason that so many people are still attached to the game. Square knew that their 'masterpiece' was almost buried, so they decided to resurrect it two or three times over. I'm not saying that the game is overrated because of the amount of people who like/dislike the game. I'm saying it's overrated for just about every other point I have made about the game that makes it a bad one.


ugh... already responded to this aswell.
No quit fucking complaining about it. Do you realize how many times I've had to repeat myself about the same points over and over again? Yeah it's really boring and unexciting because fanboys can't bring something new to the table, so that's what I do when I present the information again.


...Pictures? wtf are you talking about?
You actually have to think outside the box a little bit dude. Yeah conversations between characters is the main way to describe or show the story to the character, but it's not the only one either. I'm not saying that you see these methods in every single game, but there is still that realm of possibility in terms of music, flashbacks, emotions such as anger or love, etc. Again, you don't see these in all games, but they can still be there.


you thought that Cloud was a high member of SOILDER and was war buddys with Sephiroth, then you find out that Cloud was not apart of SOILDER, his memories just merged with Zack's. that is one, there are more though.
Yeah that is one, and a poor one at that. Again, Square did an awful job at trying to portray this sense of 'whoa what did Cloud really do', or 'what was Cloud in his past life?'. It was so mangled and uncoordinated, and it was actually easy for players to miss this point while playing through for the first time.


eh. it tells you a bit more about sephiroth. its not needed, but that would be dumb if needed information was hidden.
Yeah it might tell you a little more like what his shoe size is, but if I have to go to some secret location on the world map to find needed information, I would prefer that than going there to find unneccessary info.


ack. the game designers probably weren't thinking "i know, i'll make the limit system flawed to make it harder!" i have already said, its not flawed, but a different style than the classics, and it seems that you guys just can't handle that. @_@
No, you said that Rabid Monkey thinks it's flawed, and then you said that you find that flaw to be a challenge. It's quite simple to notice that really. There is nothing that I can't handle about your statement when you pretty clearly said that you find the flawed materia system to be a challenge.


dude, in the same paragraph, you just argued why the materia system was easy, and then you argued about how it was hard...@_@
Uh, no, not really. There is nothing hard about the materia system. I said that it is really annoying and all that. You equip the Materia, fight random encounters for a while, and then you are good to advance to the next part of the game. Equip a lot of Materia, expect to fight a lot of random encounters to get back all that HP and strength. It says nowhere in that paragraph about me contradicting myself. I hate the Materia system, because it is such a double-edged sword. The more you equip, the more spells and such you can use, but the less HP and strength you have. So essentially, it may make it easier for you to defeat enemies with your new skills, but they can do the same to you.


your point?, you are correct, but does this make the game design anyworse?
I made my point. Every character shouldn't be capable of being every type of fighter, whether it be a White or Black Mage, Thief, whatever. Characters should only have one or two, and in some rare cases, three different fighting styles that they can be great at.


lost of these points have already been "shredded" by prak, and i have already responded.
Even if you have already responded, I repeat myself plenty of times and I don't get tired of it.

Stop. Fucking. Omnislashing. The fucking thread. I can't understand what the person who you are quoting really fucking said because yuo have bits and parts of their damn thread. And by the time i finish reading your post, I dont know what EITHER of you are talking about. Stop omnislashing.

Stop. Fucking. Omnislashing. The fucking thread. I can't understand what the person who you are quoting really fucking said because yuo have bits and parts of their damn thread. And by the time i finish reading your post, I dont know what EITHER of you are talking about. Stop omnislashing.

i respond to every part of the post (in the same order as the original post), but just insert my responses along the way. they are the ones picking out bits and pieces, at least smokey did that.

Smokey is doing a good job at hitting everything, but I do want to add something. If Square wanted to make FFVII's materia system allow you to use any character for any purpose, why didn't they just make the story operate like FFIV, where you never have more people in your party than the maximum number that can fight in battle? To me, that would have made more sense than having six characters sitting around twiddling their thumbs. The writers could have done a lot more with a story that allows characters to come and go, as well. Really, it is a waste to have nine characters when you only need three, and when it only makes sense to have three.

i respond to every part of the post (in the same order as the original post), but just insert my responses along the way. they are the ones picking out bits and pieces, at least smokey did that.
I decided to pick out bits and pieces because it had been quite a while since I actually posted in this thread. It would have taken me a few hours to respond to every single post that I actually wanted to, but I didn't have the nerve to do it this time.

You could have just said your opinion by quoting in your response. it's not liek I can do anything but It is really hard to read because when you pull out the bits and pieces I have no idea what the other guy's point was. It doesn't matter really but still.

People have been debating that way on forums before you ever got on the internet. My suggestion, deal with it. :)

Oh goodie, such a stupid remark for me to get back into the groove of things with.

No, that's not what overrated means. FFVII was one of the first games to feature these oh so great 3-D graphics for the Playstation. They were good at the time, but that's not what made it so overrated. Sony and Square were looking to make sure that the Playstation made a huge bang in it's early sales, so they started advertising the heck out of the game and covering it in just about every magazine you can possibly think of. What you are basically saying, is that a lot of people liked FFVII, even though he/she didn't think it was a great game. You keep saying that it's such a wonderful game, and then you go and say something like this. Overrated means simply this:

A game that is hyped and advertised to such a degree, that it vastly disappoints the masses when it gets released.Oh goodie, such a stupid remark. Well done, you just gave the definition for "overhyped" instead, which is something completely different from overrated. You need to read a dictionary before making-up ridiculous definitions like that. Here's what "overrated" really means:

To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.

And who exactly is rating FFVII too highly? That's right, the millions of fans out there are the ones rating it too highly because that's how much they love it. For someone who doesn't love it, it would be an overrated game. For someone who does love it, it wouldn't be overrated. It's a simple concept and not something that's hard to understand yet many of you guys just don't get it.


Why are so many people stupid about this? The ENTIRE point of a debate is for people to share their opinion and to tell us why they believe what they do. It is impossible to have a debate without an opinion. Period.Wrong. That's not true at all. Real debates are always objective and based on FACT, with both factions trying to prove the other wrong, and there's always a fact that everyone can agree on by the end of it. A good example of objective debates would be threads discussing facts regarding the events that took place in a story.

A subjective debate based on opinion isn't something I consider to be a useful debate, because there can never be a fact for everyone to agree on, there simply isn't any objective to such a debate. You're arguing that FFVII is a bad game and trying to convince everyone of it but it's obvious there will never be an answer everyone can agree on and no matter what anyone says, no one will change their views on the game. This is why it's a pointless debate, which is what many have been trying to say all along, but some of you just won't accept it and still continue pointlessly bashing the game and trying to convince everyone that all your OPINIONS are fact and continue dictating to everyone else that they should believe FFVII is a bad game. Sorry buddies but you're not convincing anyone other than yourselves. Even many of the FFVII fanboys here are smart enough to tell this debate is too subjective, so why is it so hard for most of you FFVII haters to grasp this basic concept? Clanotheduck has been repeating this point so many times yet you guys choose to disregard it just to make it look like you're right and his wrong. Sorry to break it to you but there is no right or wrong to a subjective debate like this, only shallow-minded people would think like that. Most of your points have recently been little more than opinions. You say your backing up your opinion with facts but all I see is just more and more opinions. It just doesn't make any sense to try and prove you're right if there is no right or wrong to this debate.


Again, there wasn't anything memorable about her death. I knew that she was going to die, because when she is there all by herself and all of a sudden Cloud and company shows up, something is going to happen. When she was killed, I thought "Well I knew that was coming".Although I was quite touched by it, it didn't bring tears to my eyes either... but that doesn't change the fact that millions were in tears during that scene, regardless of what we think of it. If it managed to touch millions of fans and be very memorable for them, then there is nothing you can do to make them believe otherwise.


Aeris did not die to save the planet, she was killed. Palom and Porom killed themselves personally in order to save the party. That's the difference right there. All Aeris' death did was made Sephiroth's blade a little less sharp.Wrong again. You should play the game again before making a remark like that. Aeris' death wasn't simply to save the party, it was to save the PLANET. That's the difference right there. Aeris was the one that helped prevent the meteor from destroying the planet. If she hadn't sacrificed herself, the planet would've been wounded by the meteor in the ending. Aeris' death was much more crucial to the plot than Palom and Porom's deaths.


Overrating something can either have something to do with a big fanbase, or just a game that is supposed to be excellent but isn't quite nearly as good as the makers of the game made it out to be.Allow me to correct this statement:

Overrating something can either have something to do with a big fanbase, or just a game that is supposed to be excellent but isn't quite nearly as good as the fans of the game made it out to be.


Yeah that is one, and a poor one at that. Again, Square did an awful job at trying to portray this sense of 'whoa what did Cloud really do', or 'what was Cloud in his past life?'. It was so mangled and uncoordinated, and it was actually easy for players to miss this point while playing through for the first time.So you're basically saying this part was somewhat difficult to understand? If so, then I agree with you.


Yeah it might tell you a little more like what his shoe size is, but if I have to go to some secret location on the world map to find needed information, I would prefer that than going there to find unneccessary info.Unnecessary? It reveals Sephiroth's REAL mother and proves that Jenova cannot be his real mother, that's what it's doing. The scene in the Nibelheim basement reveals HOW Cloud was infused with Mako and lost many memories, how he inherited Zack's memories and abilites, and how he got his sword and ended up in Midgar. If you think those are unnecessary then that's obviously because you couldn't care less about the story, which you don't.


Uh, no, not really. There is nothing hard about the materia system. I said that it is really annoying and all that. You equip the Materia, fight random encounters for a while, and then you are good to advance to the next part of the game. Equip a lot of Materia, expect to fight a lot of random encounters to get back all that HP and strength. It says nowhere in that paragraph about me contradicting myself. I hate the Materia system, because it is such a double-edged sword. The more you equip, the more spells and such you can use, but the less HP and strength you have. So essentially, it may make it easier for you to defeat enemies with your new skills, but they can do the same to you.Although I respect your opinion there... it looks like you just contradicted yourself again with that last sentence... It's like you're saying it makes it easier but harder. You seriously need to make your mind up, because what you just said there makes no sense.


I made my point. Every character shouldn't be capable of being every type of fighter, whether it be a White or Black Mage, Thief, whatever. Characters should only have one or two, and in some rare cases, three different fighting styles that they can be great at.Like clanotheduck has already said, character selection has been REPLACED by materia selection, eliminating the need to change characters. A similar system to this was used in FFIII, FFV, FFX-2, and FF Tactics, commonly known as the job system. The job system is regarded by many to be the best development system in the series. In the job system, something like character selection doesn't even exist, yet it was still highly praised because of the CUSTOMIZATION it offers. The materia system followed in FFV's footsteps by offering more customisation by eliminating character selection and replacing it with an ability system similar to the job system. It offers a lot more variety and customisation than FFIV or FFVI because of this reason, along with a different style of strategy. Whether this suits your tastes is upto you. If you don't like this style of play then it's fine expressing your opinions of it but it's pointless to try convincing FFVII fans that it's rubbish if it's obvious they already like it.


Smokey is doing a good job at hitting everything, but I do want to add something. If Square wanted to make FFVII's materia system allow you to use any character for any purpose, why didn't they just make the story operate like FFIV, where you never have more people in your party than the maximum number that can fight in battle? To me, that would have made more sense than having six characters sitting around twiddling their thumbs. The writers could have done a lot more with a story that allows characters to come and go, as well. Really, it is a waste to have nine characters when you only need three, and when it only makes sense to have three.Although you may have a point that having more than three doesn't do much for the gameplay, it does add to the story just like it does to any other RPG. More characters means more background story, which is a good thing not a bad thing, unless it's too many characters that is. It also lets you just stick with the three you like most without being forced to use characters you don't like just because they have the abilities you need. Again, it's all a matter of taste when it comes down to it.

I have been saying the same thing for awhile about the materia system, I was just adding to it by saying that there are also predefined roles the chracters have just this time you don't have to use them and instead can change them to fit your own fighting style if you dont like their predefined roles. and the reason there are more than 3 characters is to add depth to the story and also becuase they fight in different ways and do different damage and for their different limit breaks. just think of how much the game would suck if there were only 3 characters, think of all the things you wouldnt be able to do with the limit breaks and the different fighting styles you wouldnt be able to have. if it was just Barret, Cloud, and Tifa you could do things like have 2 gunners and a warrior, or have three different types of mages. and besides these great things the materia system also gave us the ability to do materia combinations such as Final Attack-Revive, or Quadra Magic, or KOTR-W summon Mime which made battles much more fun and interesting. So before people say the materia system sucked think of all the great things we wouldnt be able to do in the game without it.

Oh goodie, such a stupid remark. Well done, you just gave the definition for "overhyped" instead, which is something completely different from overrated. You need to read a dictionary before making-up ridiculous definitions like that. Here's what "overrated" really means:

To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
Wow, you are wrong. A game being overhyped or overrated basically mean the same thing. Hype deals more with advertising or whatever before the game is even released, and rated deals more with after the game is released and people are able to get their hands on the product. Actually, I can make the argument that overhyped and overrated mean the same thing, but I'll spare you that one. And your definition of overrated is essentially the same as mine, give or take a few words. But if we are going to argue about who said which definition is correct, then we are both wasting our times.


And who exactly is rating FFVII too highly? That's right, the millions of fans out there are the ones rating it too highly because that's how much they love it. For someone who doesn't love it, it would be an overrated game. For someone who does love it, it wouldn't be overrated. It's a simple concept and not something that's hard to understand yet many of you guys just don't get it.
It's not as a simple concept as you think. There are plenty, plenty of games that I don't like but I don't consider to be overrated. There are also games that I love that I would argue to be overrated. Your statement is flawed really. Just because I don't like a game doesn't mean that it is overrated or not.


Wrong. That's not true at all. Real debates are always objective and based on FACT, with both factions trying to prove the other wrong, and there's always a fact that everyone can agree on by the end of it. A good example of objective debates would be threads discussing facts regarding the events that took place in a story.
While I agree with you here, a debate such as this one isn't always objective and based on facts because, quite frankly, there have been a lot of people passing through here just to say the game is good or not, and then to not provide any factual proof to help with their statements.


You're arguing that FFVII is a bad game and trying to convince everyone of it but it's obvious there will never be an answer everyone can agree on and no matter what anyone says, no one will change their views on the game.
No one will change their views on the game, really? Well there have been several people who have either loved/really liked the game, that after reading mine and a few other's posts against the game, have actually changed their opinion of FFVII.


This is why it's a pointless debate, which is what many have been trying to say all along, but some of you just won't accept it and still continue pointlessly bashing the game and trying to convince everyone that all your OPINIONS are fact and continue dictating to everyone else that they should believe FFVII is a bad game.
Technically, you could say that every debate is pointless, but it's still fun for me to participate in them even if I am not doing a good job of contributing to it.

No, many have been saying it's a pointless debate because the majority of these people love FFVII and don't want to hear a single negative word about their perfect game. If someone started bashing my favorite game, I wouldn't go around saying it's a pointless debate just because I don't want to read what they have to say. Heck, I would stand up for it as much as I could and try to prove them wrong. We have supplied FAR MORE facts than the people who are sticking up for the game. The fans of the game are the ones that are trying to convince us that their opinions are fact and that we should believe FFVII to be the greatest game ever. You are sorely missing a lot of points.


Sorry to break it to you but there is no right or wrong to a subjective debate like this, only shallow-minded people would think like that.
Then why are you here, seriously? I could care less if you think I'm a shallow-minded person. I'm here to share my opinions about FFVII, and if need be I'll bring up more points.


Most of your points have recently been little more than opinions. You say your backing up your opinion with facts but all I see is just more and more opinions.
Yes that is true, so some degree. This thread has been going on for such a long time, that I, and maybe others, are tired of rehashing the same thing over and over again. But if someone was to actually demand me to see facts about earlier points I've made, then I'll gladly support them. Until they get upset about my opinions and want proof, then that's all I'm going to supply, because I've done it before and done a much better job than most.


but that doesn't change the fact that millions were in tears during that scene, regardless of what we think of it. If it managed to touch millions of fans and be very memorable for them, then there is nothing you can do to make them believe otherwise.
Oh, so there were millions of people that have cried during this scene? Now this is where I want to see proof until I believe it to be a fact. And don't even try to turn this around on me; I'm not saying that there weren't that many people that cried. But you are the one that brought it up, so you have to supply the evidence.


Unnecessary? It reveals Sephiroth's REAL mother and proves that Jenova cannot be his real mother, that's what it's doing. The scene in the Nibelheim basement reveals HOW Cloud was infused with Mako and lost many memories, how he inherited Zack's memories and abilites, and how he got his sword and ended up in Midgar. If you think those are unnecessary then that's obviously because you couldn't care less about the story, which you don't.
Finally, we have a smart one here!

Yes, I consider it to be unnecessary to the story of the game. But I also believe that the story is pretty bad, as illustrated in previous posts. This information is still pretty irrelevant to the story though. Yeah, Aeris 'supposedly' being the last Ancient (HEY ANOTHER PART OF THE STORY THAT WAS COORDIANTED PRETTY BAD) is more important than these two.


Although I respect your opinion there... it looks like you just contradicted yourself again with that last sentence... It's like you're saying it makes it easier but harder. You seriously need to make your mind up, because what you just said there makes no sense.
I really don't think I'm contradicting myself at all. I found nothing hard about the Materia System in terms of how it works and how to use it properly. It was actually rather simple for me to figure out how to get it going and maintain it.


The materia system followed in FFV's footsteps by offering more customisation by eliminating character selection and replacing it with an ability system similar to the job system. It offers a lot more variety and customisation than FFIV or FFVI because of this reason, along with a different style of strategy.
Yeah it does offer customization, but way too much. I mean seriously, there is no diversity in characters if every single one of them is capable of having extremely similar stats.


Although you may have a point that having more than three doesn't do much for the gameplay, it does add to the story just like it does to any other RPG.
How does having only three playable characters at a time add to a story?

Yes smokey the Nibelheim scenes with lucrecia and the ones with cloud and zach are unnecessary to the overall understanding of the story and plot development but thats not why they are there. they are there to add more flavor to the story and answer some questions that give us more understanding to the story so things make more sense.

And again the diversity and roles of the characters are not defined by their stats in FF7, they are instead defined by the weapons they use, their fighting style, their limit breaks, and whether they are good or bad with materia.\

And for Aeris' Death Scene take a look at the polls people have made pertaining to it or tear jerking moments in general and most people in those polls have said "I Cried at Aeris' death" or "I was deeply and emotionally moved by Aeris' death" ask people who have played the game and the majority of them will tell you similar things. but since that would take too much time, check the polls for your proof.

Speaking of proof I did post the mathematical formula for damage dealt in FF7 just as you asked since you wanted proof and all incase you missed it.

Wow, you are wrong. A game being overhyped or overrated basically mean the same thing. Hype deals more with advertising or whatever before the game is even released, and rated deals more with after the game is released and people are able to get their hands on the product. Actually, I can make the argument that overhyped and overrated mean the same thing, but I'll spare you that one. And your definition of overrated is essentially the same as mine, give or take a few words. But if we are going to argue about who said which definition is correct, then we are both wasting our times.No there is a BIG difference between overhyping and overrating. It's the publishers/developers overhyping a game. It's the FANS overrating a game. The reason I brought up this point was to show it was the fans overrating the game and that it has nothing to do with the publishers/developers (except for when it was released).


It's not as a simple concept as you think. There are plenty, plenty of games that I don't like but I don't consider to be overrated.You clearly haven't understood my point, I was talking specifically about FFVII, not about gaiming as a whole. But since you bring it up, the games that are labelled "overrated" are only the ones that are being praised highly by a majority of people. A game that isn't praised highly would never be labelled as being overrated regardless of how rubbish it is.


There are also games that I love that I would argue to be overrated. Your statement is flawed really. Just because I don't like a game doesn't mean that it is overrated or not.What you've just said is very contradictory. You say you think a game is great but then proceed to say it's overrated. If you think a game is great why should you think it's overrated? There is no logic to such a statement. The question of whether a game is overrated or not is a very subjective question. There is no factual answer to such a question. One person might think it's overrated, while another will think it's not overrated. That's an immediate contradiction right there. Both of these views contradict each other because it's a subjective question. Different people have different tastes in what they want from a game. There is no correct answer to a subjective debate and if you think you can squeeze out an answer that everyone will agree on, then you are sorely wrong.


While I agree with you here, a debate such as this one isn't always objective and based on facts because, quite frankly, there have been a lot of people passing through here just to say the game is good or not, and then to not provide any factual proof to help with their statements.Proof? Proof for why a game is enjoyable? Proof is required for facts, not for opinions. The question of whether a game is enjoyable is a subjective question with no correct answer, therefore it doesn't need proof. Some people thought FFX-2 was rubbish and others thought it was superb. How can you justify such a contradiction and how can you prove which faction is correct? You can't. What an opinion does need however is the specific things the person enjoyed/hated about the game so it would be helpful for others to understand why the game is liked/hated by that person. Proof is the wrong word to use for a subjective debate. But other than that, I agree that it is pointless just saying a game is good and not being specific about what they liked about it.


No one will change their views on the game, really? Well there have been several people who have either loved/really liked the game, that after reading mine and a few other's posts against the game, have actually changed their opinion of FFVII.Well maybe you have swayed some FFVII fans into thinking differently about the game on rare occasions... but have you actually managed to convince any of them into thinking it's a BAD game? That's highly unlikely unless your psychic.


Technically, you could say that every debate is pointless, but it's still fun for me to participate in them even if I am not doing a good job of contributing to it.Except the ones that are based on FACT, not opinions like this particular one... but hey I guess I am kinda contradicting myself by participating in it myself... but that doesn't change the fact that it's a pointless (solution-less) debate.


No, many have been saying it's a pointless debate because the majority of these people love FFVII and don't want to hear a single negative word about their perfect game. If someone started bashing my favorite game, I wouldn't go around saying it's a pointless debate just because I don't want to read what they have to say.All you have proved with this point is that the FFVII haters here are much more egotistic than the FFVII fanboys... and this thread pretty much proves it.


Heck, I would stand up for it as much as I could and try to prove them wrong. We have supplied FAR MORE facts than the people who are sticking up for the game. The fans of the game are the ones that are trying to convince us that their opinions are fact and that we should believe FFVII to be the greatest game ever. You are sorely missing a lot of points.Prove what wrong? The only things you can prove wrong are the technical aspects of the game such as the graphics, complexity, customisation, variety, flow, content, depth and things like that, those are what can be argued objectively. The things you can't prove wrong is how enjoyable, interesting or involving a game is. If by factual proof you meant the technical aspects of the game then it would make a lot more sense.


Then why are you here, seriously? I could care less if you think I'm a shallow-minded person. I'm here to share my opinions about FFVII, and if need be I'll bring up more points.What I mean by pointless debate is that it won't have an answer, that's what I mean about it being pointless. There is no answer to whether the game is good or bad because it will be different to each person's perspective. If your sharing your opinions of it then thats fine by me but the only things you can actually prove are the technical aspects of the game, which is pretty much what I was planning to do here.


Oh, so there were millions of people that have cried during this scene? Now this is where I want to see proof until I believe it to be a fact. And don't even try to turn this around on me; I'm not saying that there weren't that many people that cried. But you are the one that brought it up, so you have to supply the evidence.I didn't say cried, I said tears. It bought tears to the eyes of millions, which means that they almost cried. And the millions part was a rough estimation, not a fact, but it's obvious that's the scene that moved the majority of people according to many polls.


Yes, I consider it to be unnecessary to the story of the game. But I also believe that the story is pretty bad, as illustrated in previous posts. This information is still pretty irrelevant to the story though.Tsugaru has explained this point better than I did. But just to elaborate on it, you need to actually have an interest in the game to be bothered to go find those hidden scenes. If your not even interested in the story in the first place then those scenes would be meaningless to you. Those hidden scenes are for the people that actually have an interest in the story, not for those that don't.


Yeah, Aeris 'supposedly' being the last Ancient (HEY ANOTHER PART OF THE STORY THAT WAS COORDIANTED PRETTY BAD) is more important than these two.In what way was it badly co-ordinated? Please explain.


I really don't think I'm contradicting myself at all. I found nothing hard about the Materia System in terms of how it works and how to use it properly.I was referring to the last sentence when you said it's easier to beat the enemies and it's easier for them to beat you. That part makes no sense at all.


It was actually rather simple for me to figure out how to get it going and maintain it.I actually prefer a system that takes less learning to get used to. I find it quite annoying having to go through many tutorials before getting into the game. A system that offers a lot of flexibility while taking less time to get used to is a big plus for me.


Yeah it does offer customization, but way too much. I mean seriously, there is no diversity in characters if every single one of them is capable of having extremely similar stats.And that's exactly what I think is great about the materia system. The same thing you hate about it is the same thing I like about it, it has a lot of customisation as a result of sacrificing character diversity (in gameplay terms). It's also no coincidence that I am a pretty big fan of the job system, so its natural for me to prefer the materia system over one that has less customisation (character selection).


How does having only three playable characters at a time add to a story?Read it again, I said "having MORE than three" "adds to the story".

No there is a BIG difference between overhyping and overrating. It's the publishers/developers overhyping a game. It's the FANS overrating a game. The reason I brought up this point was to show it was the fans overrating the game and that it has nothing to do with the publishers/developers (except for when it was released).
Wow.

You think that overhype comes solely from publishers and developers? And you think overrate comes solely from fans? Seriously, before you say something like that, think about it next time, mmmkay. Just take Halo 2 for example; one of the most hyped games in history, definately as of late. The hype didn't just come from the people who made the game. In fact, I'd say it came mostly from the fans who were dying to try the game online. Halo was so hyped up, so that just made for more hype with Halo 2. When a game is overrated, it means that there are far too many people liking it when they really shouldn't be. When a game is overhyped, it means that there are vast expectations for the game and it is supposed to be a great game.


What you've just said is very contradictory. You say you think a game is great but then proceed to say it's overrated. If you think a game is great why should you think it's overrated? There is no logic to such a statement.
No, it's not contradictory. Again, I'll use Halo 2 as an example. I love playing the game, very much because of online play even though there isn't anything revolutionary about it. I just love doing it. But the game is overrated, was overhyped, and doesn't deserve all the merits or attention that it gets. Yes, there are games that I think are great, but are overrated, such as this one. Pretty simple logic if you ask me.


Proof? Proof for why a game is enjoyable?
What in the world are you talking about now? If someone says that they like FFVII, then I'll ask them why. If they say something like 'CLOUD IS DA STRONGEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME', and if I disagree, then I'll ask them for proof. Or if they say that all characters are fully-developed, then I will definately ask for proof. I'm not asking them to prove to me why a game is enjoyable.


What an opinion does need however is the specific things the person enjoyed/hated about the game so it would be helpful for others to understand why the game is liked/hated by that person.
Hey, it seems like you are finally starting to understand what I'm trying to say. I don't want to know if they liked the game or not, I want to know why.


Well maybe you have swayed some FFVII fans into thinking differently about the game on rare occasions... but have you actually managed to convince any of them into thinking it's a BAD game? That's highly unlikely unless your psychic.
I'm a prime example; I used to think it was a good game, but I was swayed over to the other side after taking a closer look at the game and reading what people had to say about the bad qualities of FFVII. Have you actually managed to sway anybody into thinking it's a good game? I think not.


Except the ones that are based on FACT, not opinions like this particular one... but hey I guess I am kinda contradicting myself by participating in it myself... but that doesn't change the fact that it's a pointless (solution-less) debate.
There have been facts provided in this thread and/or the other one, and I really don't feel like searching through every post to find them. I've been here since they opened, so I would know more about it than you would. A lot more facts have been supplied by people who dislike the game than ones that do.


All you have proved with this point is that the FFVII haters here are much more egotistic than the FFVII fanboys... and this thread pretty much proves it.
How in the world do you manage to say I'm trying to accuse the FFVII haters of being more egotistical than everyone else? I mean really, nothing in there hints at that. Let me rephrase it so it is easier for you to understand:

I'd say over 95% of the people that have complained about this thread being pointless are ones that like/love the game. They say it's a pointless thread, because most of them can't supply any reasoning for why they like the game so much. They were drawn in when they first played it for no real reason, otherwise they would be able to tell us those reasons. It's pointless to them, because they can't argue or debate with us for the sole reason that they can't back up anything they say, bar a select few.

It sounds to me as if you are saying that I have a big ego because I wouldn't totally flip out if someone made a thread bashing my favorite game.


Prove what wrong? The only things you can prove wrong are the technical aspects of the game such as the graphics, complexity, customisation, variety, flow, content, depth and things like that, those are what can be argued objectively. The things you can't prove wrong is how enjoyable, interesting or involving a game is. If by factual proof you meant the technical aspects of the game then it would make a lot more sense.
I'm not trying to prove if the game is enjoyable or not. Heck, I'd say that I didn't find it that, but I can't provide proof other than those words. And you just said it yourself. Graphics, content, etc. are things that can be proved wrong, and I'm sure that they have all been brought up before; can't remember everything you know.


I didn't say cried, I said tears. It bought tears to the eyes of millions, which means that they almost cried. And the millions part was a rough estimation, not a fact, but it's obvious that's the scene that moved the majority of people according to many polls.
Crying, tearing up. They are the same. And you seriously can't come up with a rough estimation of millions of people from just some polls off one website. I would assume that not even 500 people have answered yes to that question from all these polls.


you need to actually have an interest in the game to be bothered to go find those hidden scenes. If your not even interested in the story in the first place then those scenes would be meaningless to you. Those hidden scenes are for the people that actually have an interest in the story, not for those that don't.
I was interested enough the first time I played it to search them out, and even when I found them I still thought that they were pretty pointless. And I'm the type of gamer that will try to find everything possible in the game, no matter if I am interested in the story of the game or not.


I was referring to the last sentence when you said it's easier to beat the enemies and it's easier for them to beat you. That part makes no sense at all.
Oh now that actually has some merit to it, and I guess it's a little difficult to understand my point.

When you equip Materia, you lose HP and strength, but your new powers or abilities will almost always make up for the loss in physical damage, and will usually make you capable of winning battles easier. Your enemies won't have as much HP to take away from you as before, thus making it easier for them to kill you. But you can use your Materia to kill them off quicker than you used to before. So essentially, you could say that all the materia system does is speed up the flow of battles.


Read it again, I said "having MORE than three" "adds to the story".
Oh, ok. Missed one word.

Anyways, what I mean was, it seems like you are saying that having only three playable characters at a time adds to the story. Or maybe I'm just misinterpeting it altogether?

too tired to get back into this thing at the moment, but tommorow i'll respond to what ever the latest opposing post is if jagged didn't get it first.

To whoever it is that used to be Trekkies and Clanotheduck, there's one thing I want to ask you. If this whole thing's just a matter of opinion and Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak haven't really proven anything, then explain just one thing. You both flat out said that no one's opinion was/would be changed by this thread. Mine was. How can that be if they didn't prove anything? I still think FFVII is a pretty good game, but not nearly as good as I used to think it is. Perhaps what influenced my opinion the most was the people who came in and made posts calling all of the FFVII-haters whiners who couldn't accept the fact that other people liked the game. You two have done some of that, but not really enough for me to flame you for it. You've been pretty good about it. However, the way some of the other fans have acted was completely appalling. Debates ARE based entirely on opinion. A debate is using facts and drawing conclusions from those facts TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINION. Oh, and stop using that "taking my points out of context" argument. Rm, Smokey, and Prak read it first and then split it up so they can show which part of your post they're responding to. They read all of the points in context first; they don't split it up randomly and then read each section.

To whoever it is that used to be Trekkies and Clanotheduck, there's one thing I want to ask you. If this whole thing's just a matter of opinion and Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak haven't really proven anything, then explain just one thing. You both flat out said that no one's opinion was/would be changed by this thread. Mine was. How can that be if they didn't prove anything? I still think FFVII is a pretty good game, but not nearly as good as I used to think it is. Perhaps what influenced my opinion the most was the people who came in and made posts calling all of the FFVII-haters whiners who couldn't accept the fact that other people liked the game.

that shouldn't influence your opinion at all, you see the way some one else acts about a matter doesn't change the quality of the game.

i said what i said because it makes no sense for some to sway there opinion on this matter. please elaborate on what made you spasticaly believe that the materia system was bad system, when you didn't believe this before. or on any other topic for that matter.

you see, you've played the game and decided that you liked playing with the materia system, or that that limit system wasn't that bad. but now that some shmoe comes along and tells you otherwise, your just going to completely change your opinion on the matter? it makes no sense.



You two have done some of that, but not really enough for me to flame you for it. You've been pretty good about it. However, the way some of the other fans have acted was completely appalling. Debates ARE based entirely on opinion. A debate is using facts and drawing conclusions from those facts TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINION. Oh, and stop using that "taking my points out of context" argument. Rm, Smokey, and Prak read it first and then split it up so they can show which part of your post they're responding to. They read all of the points in context first; they don't split it up randomly and then read each section.

i believe that a debate is based on fact. if you have a debate BASED on opinion, then you wont get anywhere. i hope you realize what the definition of "based" is. its what everything else comes from, its the "base" of something. what you do with these facts is, you form an opinion around them, then show people what you came out with, and then show the parts of the facts that made you believe this. so a debate is obviously based on facts. it does invlove some opinion, but it is based on facts.

i've only used the "taking my points out of context" arguement once, and that was because it makes much more sense with the rest of the paragraph.

you see i could say that you said "this whole thing's just a matter of opinion and Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak haven't really proven anything", which you did, but it was taken out of context. now your going to be angry because other people will think thats what you said.

that is why it is important to be sure that your opponant is showing the whole idea for the veiwers to see.

Actually, debates are based around opinion. Have you been involved in any university style debating? Basically, the group you�re working with is given an opinion, such as �abortion is wrong�, while the other side is given the opinion of �abortion is right�. It is then up to the two opposing sides to build a case around those two opinions, using facts to support them. The same holds true with this debate. I have the opinion that Final Fantasy VII is not a good game; I then used facts to back up my opinion. To say that a debate is based around fact would be like saying �guns kill people�. Everyone would have no clue if you were for or against gun control, because all you have done is stated a fact. You would need to have some sort of biased before you made the statement, such as �guns should be illegal because guns kill people.� The fact is that you need both opinion and fact to have a debate, which this thread has. If you�re going to argue about whether the chicken or the egg came first it is a waste of time, because as long as both is present there�s still a bird.

you see, you've played the game and decided that you liked playing with the materia system, or that that limit system wasn't that bad. but now that some shmoe comes along and tells you otherwise, your just going to completely change your opinion on the matter? it makes no sense.
I'm not sure where you came up with the materia system and the limit system, or if you were just using those as opinions. But you are talking like it is impossible for a person to change their views on something, no matter how much evidence the other person supplies. That's just ridiculous.


i believe that a debate is based on fact. if you have a debate BASED on opinion, then you wont get anywhere. i hope you realize what the definition of "based" is. its what everything else comes from, its the "base" of something. what you do with these facts is, you form an opinion around them, then show people what you came out with, and then show the parts of the facts that made you believe this. so a debate is obviously based on facts. it does invlove some opinion, but it is based on facts.
A debate always starts with two different opinions on the same matter, always. After the debate gets started and each person's opinion is expressed and well known, that is when proof or facts are asked to be supplied by each of them. If one person can come up with a lot more facts than the other person, then some new guy strutting in, who takes the side of the guy who is 'losing' the debate, may lean more towards the first guy. It's that simple.

Actually, debates are based around opinion. Have you been involved in any university style debating? Basically, the group you�re working with is given an opinion, such as �abortion is wrong�, while the other side is given the opinion of �abortion is right�. It is then up to the two opposing sides to build a case around those two opinions, using facts to support them. The same holds true with this debate. I have the opinion that Final Fantasy VII is not a good game; I then used facts to back up my opinion. To say that a debate is based around fact would be like saying �guns kill people�. Everyone would have no clue if you were for or against gun control, because all you have done is stated a fact. You would need to have some sort of biased before you made the statement, such as �guns should be illegal because guns kill people.� The fact is that you need both opinion and fact to have a debate, which this thread has. If you�re going to argue about whether the chicken or the egg came first it is a waste of time, because as long as both is present there�s still a bird.

we are basicaly saying the same thing. only i said that there are facts that your form an opinion around, and you said that there are opinions that you back up with facts. so...yeah...practically the same.


I'm not sure where you came up with the materia system and the limit system, or if you were just using those as opinions. But you are talking like it is impossible for a person to change their views on something, no matter how much evidence the other person supplies. That's just ridiculous.

I'm trying to say that you can't "back up" any of these points.

if you enjoyed the materia system, you would probably say it was a good system.

and now some guy comes along, telling that the materia system was bad, and that it was too easy. but you had PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (which is much better than some shmoe giving you "facts") with the game, and you decided that it was challenging for you, and that it was a good system.

so how are these "facts" going to change your personal experience that it was a challenging system? it shouldn't. thats why it makes no sense.

your personal experience is much better proof of the quality of the game, than how some one else's personal experience was.


A debate always starts with two different opinions on the same matter, always. After the debate gets started and each person's opinion is expressed and well known, that is when proof or facts are asked to be supplied by each of them. If one person can come up with a lot more facts than the other person, then some new guy strutting in, who takes the side of the guy who is 'losing' the debate, may lean more towards the first guy. It's that simple.

i agree...but when ever i say opinon, i'm talking about how good chocolate tastes. some people love it, some people hate it, no way to back it up either way. something as subjective as that...you can't debate about. i'm trying to show how your people's "flaws" are really just a different style. you see...i could say that the entire FF series was flawed, because i didn't like how you could just randomly get into battles over and over (i'm comparing it to chrono trigger, and chrono cross.). you see, that is not a flaw, its a different style, and its my personal opinion that i didn't like it. some one else might of liked it because it would allow them to keep battling and leveling up, when i just thought of it as anouying.

we are basicaly saying the same thing. only i said that there are facts that your form an opinion around, and you said that there are opinions that you back up with facts. so...yeah...practically the same.

Hi. Don't ignore the point I was making by saying something trivial.

yeah he does have a point the graphics wernt as good as we have at the momment but the game was hard good storyline and good battle system

if you enjoyed the materia system, you would probably say it was a good system.
Good job Captain Obvious. And since I can't remember ever enjoying it, I still think it's a bad system.


and now some guy comes along, telling that the materia system was bad, and that it was too easy. but you had PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (which is much better than some shmoe giving you "facts") with the game, and you decided that it was challenging for you, and that it was a good system.
Actually, in a debate, facts can mean a lot more that personal experience at certain times. And you seem to believe that there was a point in time in which I thought the Materia System was good, but then was persuaded it wasn't because some guy came along and gave me a good enough argument that it isn't. No, I've never liked the system, period, and I never thought it was a good system.


so how are these "facts" going to change your personal experience that it was a challenging system? it shouldn't. thats why it makes no sense.
Again, you are trying to put words into my mouth. There is nothing challenging about the Materia System itself. The only thing I would consider a challenge, is all the fights that you have to get into to bring your depleted stats back up after you equip some Materia.


i agree...but when ever i say opinon, i'm talking about how good chocolate tastes. some people love it, some people hate it, no way to back it up either way.
While that is a good example of something you really can't debate, it is totally different to what I'm trying to say.

FFVII can be debated, because there are so many different aspects about the game that you can argue about, just like any game.

i said what i said because it makes no sense for some to sway there opinion on this matter. please elaborate on what made you spasticaly believe that the materia system was bad system, when you didn't believe this before. or on any other topic for that matter.

you see, you've played the game and decided that you liked playing with the materia system, or that that limit system wasn't that bad. but now that some shmoe comes along and tells you otherwise, your just going to completely change your opinion on the matter? it makes no sense.

My point was this: I used to think that FFVII was the best FF game in the series. I had played earlier and later FF games before, and the first I played was FFI, so I didn't just think that because it was the first one I played. When I first saw this thread, I had just joined FF shrine. I argued with Smokey for a while, but I saw that there was truth to both sides of the argument. The ending of FFVII is simply incomplete. You never find out why Holy wasn't working, or why the planet manages to save itself. Actually, I first said what you were saying about the materia system, that it was just a matter of opinion. Between then and now, I played through FFVI, beat FFI with all thieves, and started a game of FFV. It was then that I realized that the materia system makes things too easy for you. You don't have to put any thought into which characters you choose, because they can all do everything. I still have fun using the materia system, but it really doesn't force you to put much thought into what you're doing. When you fight the elevator bosses at Shinra HQ, do you know what I do? I give lightning materia to every character and cast bolt over and over and over. The fight is incredibly easy. In FFI, you have to select your characters so that they will form a balanced party (unless you want to spend 8 hours levelling up in between every boss.) In FFII, you have to specialize your characters so that they can max out their stats in each ability and form of attack. In FFIV, your characters change almost constantly, so you have to keep learning how to make the best use of each character in battle. In FFV, you have to have your characters take jobs that will form a balanced party. In FFVI, you have to use your characters' abilities and give them espers that will increase their stats the way you want them to while still learning magic. In FFVII, slap some materia on three characters, and you can beat all the bosses. In FFVIII, find out how to get the good magic, and your stats go through the roof, and all the bosses fall after two or three hits. That's a very sudden drop in challenge. I think the materia system could have been very good if only certain people could use certain materia, but it instead removed any value put to the characters other than limit breaks, which became obsolete once you got KOTR. As for the limit system, I don't really have much of a problem with it, so you can argue with the others about that. Anyway, my point was that I used to think FFVII was an incredibly good game; now I just think it was a pretty good game. I saw that their arguments were sound, so my opinion is different.

BTW clanotheduck, you've stopped accusing people of refusing to accept that people like the game and started arguing your point properly. Keep it up!

Good job Captain Obvious. And since I can't remember ever enjoying it, I still think it's a bad system.


Actually, in a debate, facts can mean a lot more that personal experience at certain times. And you seem to believe that there was a point in time in which I thought the Materia System was good, but then was persuaded it wasn't because some guy came along and gave me a good enough argument that it isn't. No, I've never liked the system, period, and I never thought it was a good system.


Again, you are trying to put words into my mouth. There is nothing challenging about the Materia System itself. The only thing I would consider a challenge, is all the fights that you have to get into to bring your depleted stats back up after you equip some Materia.

well then...there was no opinion to be swayed! you started out thinking it was a bad system...so your opinion wasn't swayed at all!



While that is a good example of something you really can't debate, it is totally different to what I'm trying to say.

FFVII can be debated, because there are so many different aspects about the game that you can argue about, just like any game.

and i'm trying to show you that your "flaws" and what you think makes the game too easy, is really just a different style! some people think FPS are really easy, and others think they are hard. its a different style! the hardness of a game is subjective to the player.

a lot of aspects of a game is subjective.


Hi. Don't ignore the point I was making by saying something trivial.

what the hell was your point? it seemed to me that the post was to prove my description of a debate wrong, and yours right. so i just came up with a comeback that your description was similar to mine.


My point was this: I used to think that FFVII was the best FF game in the series. I had played earlier and later FF games before, and the first I played was FFI, so I didn't just think that because it was the first one I played. When I first saw this thread, I had just joined FF shrine. I argued with Smokey for a while, but I saw that there was truth to both sides of the argument. The ending of FFVII is simply incomplete. You never find out why Holy wasn't working, or why the planet manages to save itself. Actually, I first said what you were saying about the materia system, that it was just a matter of opinion. Between then and now, I played through FFVI, beat FFI with all thieves, and started a game of FFV. It was then that I realized that the materia system makes things too easy for you. You don't have to put any thought into which characters you choose, because they can all do everything. I still have fun using the materia system, but it really doesn't force you to put much thought into what you're doing. When you fight the elevator bosses at Shinra HQ, do you know what I do? I give lightning materia to every character and cast bolt over and over and over. The fight is incredibly easy. In FFI, you have to select your characters so that they will form a balanced party (unless you want to spend 8 hours levelling up in between every boss.) In FFII, you have to specialize your characters so that they can max out their stats in each ability and form of attack. In FFIV, your characters change almost constantly, so you have to keep learning how to make the best use of each character in battle. In FFV, you have to have your characters take jobs that will form a balanced party. In FFVI, you have to use your characters' abilities and give them espers that will increase their stats the way you want them to while still learning magic. In FFVII, slap some materia on three characters, and you can beat all the bosses. In FFVIII, find out how to get the good magic, and your stats go through the roof, and all the bosses fall after two or three hits. That's a very sudden drop in challenge. I think the materia system could have been very good if only certain people could use certain materia, but it instead removed any value put to the characters other than limit breaks, which became obsolete once you got KOTR. As for the limit system, I don't really have much of a problem with it, so you can argue with the others about that. Anyway, my point was that I used to think FFVII was an incredibly good game; now I just think it was a pretty good game. I saw that their arguments were sound, so my opinion is different.

BTW clanotheduck, you've stopped accusing people of refusing to accept that people like the game and started arguing your point properly. Keep it up!

well, i've already said that the materia system is a different style that is just as challenging as the character selection. but...i see a problem in your mention of the elevator battle. one of the "flaws" with the limit system was that it would make your skip characters...and if FFVII used character selection, then you would have to keep skiping up the characters to get to the one with lightning.

...yeah. just proving a point that character selection might also be "flawed" aswell.

what the hell was your point? it seemed to me that the post was to prove my description of a debate wrong, and yours right. so i just came up with a comeback that your description was similar to mine.

Most of what I said, I said in passing, because your idea of a debate is rather silly and I wanted to explain why. Either that, or you felt like arguing over something trivial just to argue over it (when it has not real baring on whether FFVII is a good game or not).

Let me explain what my point was, as you obviously missed it. Debates need both opinion and fact. You cannot have a debate without two opposing opinions. In this case the two opinions are "FFVII is a bad game" and "FFVII is a good game". Once the opposing views have been established, it is then up to both sides to back up their opinions with facts.

What you said, is that you start with facts, then form an opinion, then debate. My point was, it doesn't matter where you start. If you have an opinion about something, and facts to back up your opinion, it doesn't matter if you looked at the facts first and then formed your opinion. As long as both are present you still have the debate (which was the chicken and the egg comment at the end).

Trying to discount the entire discussion merely because you see the facts presented as opinion is taking the easy way out, really. Take the materia system for example. It is my opinion (and others) that it is a poor system. The reasons I think it is a poor system were stated. One of the major reasons is because it makes it so only three characters are needed to play the entire game, making the other characters worthless. If the only response you can offer is "that is your opinion", without showing why it is just an opinion, then you're just trying to write off what is said. You need to either try to give a reason why you need more than three characters or concede the point. It is not an opinion because it can be proven either way. If you cannot prove that you need more than three characters (baring areas where the party has to split into two separate parties, because they were programmed in to force you to use multiple characters--not because you needed them) then the fact remains in tact, and remains as proof that the materia system has flaws.

No matter how you cut it, there is still a debate. By arguing if something is an opinion or not all you're doing is dancing around the real issue. In other words, come up with proof that what we�ve said pertaining to the game is incorrect (rather than arguing if it is an opinion or not), or stop wasting everyone�s time, including your own.

Most of what I said, I said in passing, because your idea of a debate is rather silly and I wanted to explain why. Either that, or you felt like arguing over something trivial just to argue over it (when it has not real baring on whether FFVII is a good game or not).

Let me explain what my point was, as you obviously missed it. Debates need both opinion and fact. You cannot have a debate without two opposing opinions. In this case the two opinions are "FFVII is a bad game" and "FFVII is a good game". Once the opposing views have been established, it is then up to both sides to back up their opinions with facts.

What you said, is that you start with facts, then form an opinion, then debate. My point was, it doesn't matter where you start. If you have an opinion about something, and facts to back up your opinion, it doesn't matter if you looked at the facts first and then formed your opinion. As long as both are present you still have the debate (which was the chicken and the egg comment at the end).

Trying to discount the entire discussion merely because you see the facts presented as opinion is taking the easy way out, really. Take the materia system for example. It is my opinion (and others) that it is a poor system. The reasons I think it is a poor system were stated. One of the major reasons is because it makes it so only three characters are needed to play the entire game, making the other characters worthless. If the only response you can offer is "that is your opinion", without showing why it is just an opinion, then you're just trying to write off what is said. You need to either try to give a reason why you need more than three characters or concede the point. It is not an opinion because it can be proven either way. If you cannot prove that you need more than three characters (baring areas where the party has to split into two separate parties, because they were programmed in to force you to use multiple characters--not because you needed them) then the fact remains in tact, and remains as proof that the materia system has flaws.

No matter how you cut it, there is still a debate. By arguing if something is an opinion or not all you're doing is dancing around the real issue. In other words, come up with proof that what we�ve said pertaining to the game is incorrect (rather than arguing if it is an opinion or not), or stop wasting everyone�s time, including your own.

i agree we should stop aurguing about what makes a debate, but your comments about the materia system are all wrong.

you see. i have provided evidence that the materia system was not flawed, but a different style. who decided that having to use more then 3 characters is the way its supoused to be? this wont make it any harder or any easier.

now you will say "But the other characters are just useless now!", yes, but it does give you varriety in picking your characters, to have so many. also having more than 3 characters adds depth to the story, like Jagged said.


it seems to me that you guys are just making wild claims that RPGs are "supoused" to be this, and are "supoused" to be that. but its just a different style then the old ones.

you see. i have provided evidence that the materia system was not flawed, but a different style. who decided that having to use more then 3 characters is the way its supoused to be? this wont make it any harder or any easier.

The argument isn't even about being able to use any three characters. The argument is every character being able to play any role you need him or her to play makes the game easier. There is no possible way you can argue that it doesn't. You could argue the degree at which it is made easier, but I would suggest playing games where characters have to have defined roles. You'll see instantly that there is a much greater challenge in games that do not have anything like the materia system.


now you will say "But the other characters are just useless now!", yes, but it does give you varriety in picking your characters, to have so many. also having more than 3 characters adds depth to the story, like Jagged said.

You're not really picking between anything, though. You're just selecting three at random and making them be whatever you want. Also, FFV only had four playable characters. The reason is because it used the job system, so you could make any character what you wanted him or her to be (like FFVII). Personally, I don't think the story lost any depths to it. You could just as easily have every single character in FFVII while only having a three-person party at all times. In fact, as I said before, I think it could have been a better story had that been the case.


it seems to me that you guys are just making wild claims that RPGs are "supoused" to be this, and are "supoused" to be that. but its just a different style then the old ones.

It is a different style, yes, a horribly flawed style. Show me proof that Square intended you to only have to use three characters through the whole game, and that they meant to devalue the other six playable characters they added into the game. Personally, I think you're the one making the wild claims, seemingly saying you know exactly what Square intended without offering any proof. Also, before you say it, the reason I can assume Square meant you to use every character is because they included all of them. In every other Final Fantasy (bar FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX�though you can include them if you really wish to, as they just added to the downward spiral that is the post SNES Final Fantasies) you never have more characters than you are expected to use. FFVI is the only other Final Fantasy where you have an overabundance of characters. However, in FFVI, you constantly have to utilize the large party by splitting apart. In FFVII you only split apart once, at the very end of the game, and you still don�t even need to use three characters. Even if I considered this one occasion to be reason enough to have more than three characters (which I don�t), the fact still remains that at least one of your characters is useless, with up to three being useless if you bothered to get the two secret characters.

The materia system was flawed in that it removed the concentrated roles of the different characters; not because it sucked. It was in fact very interesting but there was no consistency with the characters because of the system. That is why the materia system was not the correct one to use for a ROLE playing game.

The argument isn't even about being able to use any three characters. The argument is every character being able to play any role you need him or her to play makes the game easier. There is no possible way you can argue that it doesn't. You could argue the degree at which it is made easier, but I would suggest playing games where characters have to have defined roles. You'll see instantly that there is a much greater challenge in games that do not have anything like the materia system.

Ugh...there is a way i can argue it isn't easier.

Ok...rather than having each character have their own special powers. you can just choose who will get what special powers...allowing you to pick favorites...but this will NOT make it any easier or any harder...it just allows you to choose which character gets what, like the Job system, but it allows for more customization. Like letting you pick exactly what power you want each character to have. This is good, because rather than having that power that you never use, you can replace it with a different power. I always thought that it was ANNOYING that you got those useless powers such as "Cheer" or "Provoke" (at least I never used them) when you wanted something more useful.

You see... you people can argue that annoying things are NOT challenges, so I guess I can too. @_@





You're not really picking between anything, though. You're just selecting three at random and making them be whatever you want. Also, FFV only had four playable characters. The reason is because it used the job system, so you could make any character what you wanted him or her to be (like FFVII). Personally, I don't think the story lost any depths to it. You could just as easily have every single character in FFVII while only having a three-person party at all times. In fact, as I said before, I think it could have been a better story had that been the case.

...@[email protected] could pick at random...but it�s much funnier to pick favorites and use them...that�s all my point is. It allows you to use who ever the hell you want! That will NOT make it any harder or easier.

Wow...how would it of made a better story? Characters you can battle with don�t affect the quality of the script. you said that they might as well of made the other characters not playable, yes...this would not effect the story, but once more, it wouldn't make it so you have a large group of people to choose from, making it so you can pick favorites and have a hay day with he characters you like!

You see, in FFV, wouldn't of been cool to play with that other guy that was in the story?...yeah...I didn't get to that game yet (just started to play 4) so I�m just going to say "that guy"...all my point is, is that it gives variety to pick from so many characters.





It is a different style, yes, a horribly flawed style. Show me proof that Square intended you to only have to use three characters through the whole game, and that they meant to devalue the other six playable characters they added into the game. Personally, I think you're the one making the wild claims, seemingly saying you know exactly what Square intended without offering any proof. Also, before you say it, the reason I can assume Square meant you to use every character is because they included all of them. In every other Final Fantasy (bar FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX�though you can include them if you really wish to, as they just added to the downward spiral that is the post SNES Final Fantasies) you never have more characters than you are expected to use. FFVI is the only other Final Fantasy where you have an overabundance of characters. However, in FFVI, you constantly have to utilize the large party by splitting apart. In FFVII you only split apart once, at the very end of the game, and you still don�t even need to use three characters. Even if I considered this one occasion to be reason enough to have more than three characters (which I don�t), the fact still remains that at least one of your characters is useless, with up to three being useless if you bothered to get the two secret characters.

@[email protected] here is proof that they didn't design it to use all of the characters.

(I haven't tried this)

People say that if you only use the guys through out the game until Cloud and Aries's date scene, you can go on a date with Barret (instead of Aries)...now if the game wasn't designed for you to pick favorites, then why would they make an event only possible if you used a select few characters?

Also if the game was not designed for you to pick favorites...why the heck would they give you the ability to choose???

Now you shall say "FFVI let you choose" (I think that�s what you meant by "Splitting up"), and now I shall say that final fantasy VI did not use a job system, or anything like the materia system.

I guess I have been making all of the points you have already made. Character selection doesn't mean crap in the game! Meaning, you do not have to use all of your characters. If the game was designed for you to use all of your characters, they would give them individual value.

So you sort of said the opposite of yourself. You said that character selection was worthless, now you�re saying that the game was designed for you use all of your characters, meaning that they all had a use...and you have already said that the characters don't have an individual use.


The materia system was flawed in that it removed the concentrated roles of the different characters; not because it sucked. It was in fact very interesting but there was no consistency with the characters because of the system. That is why the materia system was not the correct one to use for a ROLE playing game.

So are you making the radical claim the Final Fantasy VII is not a role playing game??? If its still a role playing game.. then its working system.

You could say the exact same thing about the job system...it removes their personal qualities in battle...and gives them new ones...It doesn't make it so no one has a role to play. It just switches the roles around.

Ugh...there is a way i can argue it isn't easier.

Ok...rather than having each character have their own special powers. you can just choose who will get what special powers...allowing you to pick favorites...but this will NOT make it any easier or any harder...it just allows you to choose which character gets what, like the Job system, but it allows for more customization. Like letting you pick exactly what power you want each character to have. This is good, because rather than having that power that you never use, you can replace it with a different power. I always thought that it was ANNOYING that you got those useless powers such as "Cheer" or "Provoke" (at least I never used them) when you wanted something more useful.

You see... you people can argue that annoying things are NOT challenges, so I guess I can too. @_@

The Job System is different because you are very limited in the abilities each character gains when they select a job. With the Materia System you're able to mix and match ANY skill you want. You pretty much just added to the argument that the Matiera System is far too easy. However, because you admitted later in your post you've never played FFV, your opinion on this loses ALL credibility, because everything you're saying is basically coming without a full understanding of what I was saying.


...@[email protected] could pick at random...but it�s much funnier to pick favorites and use them...that�s all my point is. It allows you to use who ever the hell you want! That will NOT make it any harder or easier.

The point is that it devalues characters. There's no point in having nine characters if you only need three.


Wow...how would it of made a better story? Characters you can battle with don�t affect the quality of the script. you said that they might as well of made the other characters not playable, yes...this would not effect the story, but once more, it wouldn't make it so you have a large group of people to choose from, making it so you can pick favorites and have a hay day with he characters you like!

Play FFIV, then tell me having characters come and go doesn't add to the story.


You see, in FFV, wouldn't of been cool to play with that other guy that was in the story?...yeah...I didn't get to that game yet (just started to play 4) so I�m just going to say "that guy"...all my point is, is that it gives variety to pick from so many characters.

No, it wouldn't have been better. Play it before you try to comment on it.


People say that if you only use the guys through out the game until Cloud and Aries's date scene, you can go on a date with Barret (instead of Aries)...now if the game wasn't designed for you to pick favorites, then why would they make an event only possible if you used a select few characters?

First, I'll confirm that, yes, you can go on a date with Barret. However, the requirement is to act like a jerk to all of the females, not to never use them. You should actually play games before you use them for reference and try out aspects of FFVII you haven't attempted before you mention them.


Also if the game was not designed for you to pick favorites...why the heck would they give you the ability to choose???

That's not the point. In FFVI you have to "play favorites" several times, as well. However, if you always use the same characters in FFVI then you will have four core characters that are insanely powerful, while the rest of your characters are very, very weak. This screws you over because the party splits constantly, making it impossible for you to complete some areas of the game unless you try to balance your usage of characters.


Now you shall say "FFVI let you choose" (I think that�s what you meant by "Splitting up"), and now I shall say that final fantasy VI did not use a job system, or anything like the materia system.

FFVI did have something similar to the Materia System, actually. The Esper/Relic system was basically the equivalent to the Materia System. The difference is that just giving a character a powerful Esper or powerful relics didn't allow them to take on whatever role you wanted. Each character still had distinct abilities. The distinct abilities made FFVI a challenge when your party split because you had to try and mix and match your party. In FFVII you had to mix and match your materia, which is insanely simple. Again, it just solidifies the point that FFVII has no difficulty to it at all.

As for the meaning of splitting, your main party has to separate into several smaller parties many times in FFVI. Let me guess, you've only played the Playstation Final Fantasies?


I guess I have been making all of the points you have already made. Character selection doesn't mean crap in the game! Meaning, you do not have to use all of your characters. If the game was designed for you to use all of your characters, they would give them individual value.

My point was that they have needless characters. If the characters don't serve a purpose then they shouldn't be there. If you never had more than three people in your party in FFVII you wouldn't even know the difference. If they are there they should have some sort of purpose or value, the characters in FFVII do not. That is the point.


So you sort of said the opposite of yourself. You said that character selection was worthless, now you�re saying that the game was designed for you use all of your characters, meaning that they all had a use...and you have already said that the characters don't have an individual use.

No, either you've misunderstood me or you're trying to take what I've said out of context. There is no contradiction in what I've said. I have said the characters should have individual value to the party, and I have said that they do not. You're putting words in my mouth, and I'd thank you to knock it off because you're getting as bad as Tekkie.

OMFG!!!!!!

ffvii is a good game. come on! it sold MILLIONS!! it's obvious!!
so what if you dont like it? everybody else DOES, and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO to change people's minds. not one person is gonna wake up and say "wow. after reading this immensly long thread, i realize that final fantasy vii is NOT a good game. im gonna go throw it away now."
that scenario that i have stated above is never gonna happen. so anybody who wastes their time trying to dis FFVII is just wasing their lives with absurdly long posts that dont mean a THING because you are NOT changing anybody's mind.
this thread should have been dead and gone long, long ago.

it sold MILLIONS!! it's obvious!!

That has already been discussed. You're not adding anything new.


so what if you dont like it?

We're allowed to express our opinions?


everybody else DOES, and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO to change people's minds.

Obviously that isn't true, otherwise there wouldn't be people that agree with me. Also: That has already been discussed. You're not adding anything new.


not one person is gonna wake up and say "wow. after reading this immensly long thread, i realize that final fantasy vii is NOT a good game. im gonna go throw it away now."

People have changed their opinions. Also: That has already been discussed. You're not adding anything new.


that scenario that i have stated above is never gonna happen. so anybody who wastes their time trying to dis FFVII is just wasing their lives with absurdly long posts that dont mean a THING because you are NOT changing anybody's mind.

If you had taken the time to read the thread, you would realize you're wrong. Also: That has already been discussed. You're not adding anything new.


this thread should have been dead and gone long, long ago.

That has already been discussed. You're not adding anything new.

So are you making the radical claim the Final Fantasy VII is not a role playing game??? If its still a role playing game.. then its working system.

You could say the exact same thing about the job system...it removes their personal qualities in battle...and gives them new ones...It doesn't make it so no one has a role to play. It just switches the roles around.

And so are you assuming that I made the radical claim that FF7 was not a role playing game?

And I don't know what the hell you are talking about when you said that the Job system removes their personal qualities and gives them new ones. What the HELL are you talking about? In FF4, Kain was a Dragon Knight. Hence he got the Jump ablity. No one else did. How did that give them a new personality in BATTLE?! Rosa was trained as a white mage and guess what...SHE HAD healing abilities in battle. Cecil was a kngiht so he NEVER GOT TO USE SUMMONS. So in FF7, although Cloud is a mercenary warrior, I could make him into a healer. Therefore removing the point of a ROLE in the game because wow you fit ALL the roles. That was my point. The materia system was not the right system for a role playing game.

OMFG!!!!!!

ffvii is a good game. come on! it sold MILLIONS!! it's obvious!!
so what if you dont like it? everybody else DOES, and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO to change people's minds. not one person is gonna wake up and say "wow. after reading this immensly long thread, i realize that final fantasy vii is NOT a good game. im gonna go throw it away now."
that scenario that i have stated above is never gonna happen. so anybody who wastes their time trying to dis FFVII is just wasing their lives with absurdly long posts that dont mean a THING because you are NOT changing anybody's mind.
this thread should have been dead and gone long, long ago.

The ironic thing about this post is that it is the proof that this thread should be kept alive. Come on, who doesn't find this entertaining?

The ironic thing about this post is that it is the proof that this thread should be kept alive. Come on, who doesn't find this entertaining?

That post doesn�t count, actually. =/

I had an admin run an IP check, turns out it was someone that had been already banned. He joins every now and then just to be an ass.

i'm tired of debating this subject...why don't we just say that rabid monkey, prak, and all of those other people won. my opinion wasn't swayed, i'm not going to think that it is a bad game now, because i had personal experience that it was a good game...

if anyone else wants to argue with these ignorant fellows, then be my guest...i've got better things to do than argue over such a trivial topic.

i'm tired of debating this subject...why don't we just say that rabid monkey, prak, and all of those other people won. my opinion wasn't swayed, i'm not going to think that it is a bad game now, because i had personal experience that it was a good game...

if anyone else wants to argue with these ignorant fellows, then be my guest...i've got better things to do than argue over such a trivial topic.

Bye bye. We'll miss you!

if anyone else wants to argue with these ignorant fellows, then be my guest...i've got better things to do than argue over such a trivial topic.

Just for the record, what makes me ignorant? It seems to me you�re calling me ignorant just because I don�t agree with you, which is pretty childish.

Just for the record, what makes me ignorant? It seems to me you�re calling me ignorant just because I don�t agree with you, which is pretty childish.

i'm saying your ignorant, because over and over you guys fail to see my point, and maybe i'm failing to see your point aswell.

this deabte really just consists of people repeating themselves on both sides...which tends to get boring after a while, i'm not sure why you people are still here either...@_@

i'm saying your ignorant, because over and over you guys fail to see my point, and maybe i'm failing to see your point aswell.

this deabte really just consists of people repeating themselves on both sides...which tends to get boring after a while, i'm not sure why you people are still here either...@_@

I saw your point, but it was wrong. I stated why it is wrong. That doesn't make any one ignorant, and I would hope that you don�t go around calling everyone that disagrees with you ignorant. And you're right; people are repeating what has been said a lot. However, the reason isn't because we don't have anything else to say on the topic, it's because people that try to defend FFVII don't bother to read through both of the threads to see what has and has not been discussed already. You're basically telling us to back down merely because someone doesn't bother to read the threads, and that is silly.

However, that is where the superiority of FFVII to the earlier Final Fantasies ends. The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don�t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it. A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I�m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven�t played it). Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger). FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story. Ok, so it was not innovative as far as the story goes, what about the battle and materia system you ask?


"Final Fantasy VII
PLAYSTATION
The plot thickens: Experience a deep and engaging storyline with several unexpected twists and turns."

at least a worker at gamestop agrees with me.

And we all know that Gamestop workers are the world's foremost literary experts...

Or they just want you to buy that game and leave.

It makes me sad that so many lamers love FFVII. That makes me sound like one of them when someone is to ask, "What's your favorite game?" And I reply, without hesitation, "Final Fantasy 7". ;-;

Though, RM, I agree with you on a lot of things. You put up a good argument.

But FFVII's still the best game. =D I'm done.

P.S.: FF 1-6 owned.

=D I'm done.

I guess there's no point in arguing with him. After all, he IS done. And if he's done, that means he'll never post in here again.

And if he's done, that means he'll never post in here again.

Says you.

haven't been here for months, and this thing's still goin eh

haven't been here for months, and this thing's still goin eh

Of course. It's in the FFVII forum, isn't it?

It's because people can't stand that I'm right (and everyone else that has supported what I said). Btw, wb Koenma, you're one of the people I've missed.

I used to support the other side. Before I was squashed by Prak.

Says you.

AHA! So you're NOT done! *wins*

It does have a slow start.........but overall is a very good game.

Great job. You revived a Thread over a year old. Kudos.

Not a bad choice of thread however.

Oh man, perhaps I should start bashing FFVII more. But only so I can re-subscribe to this thread. And no, I don't want to just click the option to subscribe to it again.

Well, it's been a while since the debate(if I should call it that)happened and most of the FF7 lovers at the time have left. If you bash it again, you'll have new people to argue with.

Not a bad choice of thread however.

I see your reasoning.

cut yourself

Don't revive ancient threads.