Oh, what a colossal mess. NI aside, last night was absolutely woeful and we have the realistic possibility that not a single side from the british Isles will be in the Euros next year. Has that ever happened before?

Toshack should go, Staunton should go, McClaren should go. All three are underachieving.

Hope Scotland do Italy at Hampden but can't see it happening.

Woeful pretty much sums it up.

On the domestic front, Sammy Lee has finally gone. He's a good guy but he's Prem manager material. We should have brought someone in over the summer. Paul Jewell seems to be favourite to replace him. I could live with that.

someones going to fucking die for this shit

>:

well, i did kind of lol; after all the hyping following england and scotlands previous form, it wasn't that surprising that they fucked up, leaving their positions very tenuous. i have always been critical that svens number two, a boring boro manager to boot, was his successor, and if russia do oust us from the coming euro and that leads to his dismissal then about fucking time.

Shamelessly stolen from boards.ie, but nevertheless apt:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=46221&d=1192653245

In all fairness, i'd position the blame entirely with the FAI for appointing stan in the first place.

The lad was offered the chance to manage his international team, so I won't fault him for accepting the position and trying his best.

haha.

i think whats the worst sign of all is pretty much everyone i know couldnt be bothered with the national side atm. apathy is probably the worst state for any team/nations fans to be in.

Moving away from international football... Pompey are on a bit of a roll at the moment. 4 wins on the bounce... Not bad going. :D

2-0, get in. we're doing pretty well so far this season, 5th having played all the big 4 is a great position to be in as far as i'm concerned and it looks like we could make a real push for europe.

also, i was at the plymouth argyle game today. lee martin looks to be a pretty good player, united fans should keep an eye on him.

re: the rugby

oh well, better than 36-0 and at any rate, if you'd told me a few weeks ago we were going to be in the final i'd probably have laughed at you. still, the difference between the two sides was pretty evident... we need to get our act together pretty swiftly.

re: the rugby

oh well, better than 36-0 and at any rate, if you'd told me a few weeks ago we were going to be in the final i'd probably have laughed at you. still, the difference between the two sides was pretty evident... we need to get our act together pretty swiftly.

i think it was harsh to disallow the try, perhaps his foot scraped the line before he tried but fuck it was close

SA were deserving winners though, very strong in the tackle and more adventurous with their play. england can be proud though, i think us making the final at all is as big a surprise as the form and final position of argentina (i dont follow rugby beyond the world cup as ive never really been into it that much so i dont know if argentina were building up to this for years; i know who the big 8 are and all the rules and that; anyway)

football matters, good prem matches today, i enjoyed alexs goal, excellent shot from a good defender who with a bit of a run in the side can impose himself as a solid benchmark in the team. pompey and blackburn look like solid propositions, and arsenals form doesnt show any sign of slowing, neither does united, they look imperious. the merseyside derby was a laugh as always

snooker - murphy v o sullivan was one of the best matches ive ever seen; 1 visit frames, flowing, confident snooker from both players and a fantastic comeback by ronnie; the only fuckups came in the safety exchanges, and ronnie won out. fu v greene was comical by comparison; they also went to a deciding frame, and me and my mate joe have played games with less mistakes then that frame, it was hilarious. i think ronnie FTW tomorrow.

oh yeah, the try should've been allowed, i reckon. whether that would've changed the game in the end though is up to debate given england barely made it into SA's half for hte rest of the match.

i saw a bit of the mersey derby whilst sellin' the half-time lottery for argyle, it was pretty amusing.

The try was a hard one to call. From one angle he seemed to be in touch and from the other it seemed to be a fair try. I'd have given it, though.

However, South Africa deserved their win.

i dont know, today i'm looking at the reply down the line directly behind tait and god damn it his foot does seem to bounce off the line before he tries the ball. but yeah it's a very difficult call and harsh not to give it, and the aussie TV adjudicator is a cunt etc.

top cat hows that lottery selling job working for you? it sounds like fun to be honest

another win for manchester, yup the goals are comming now

i dont know, today i'm looking at the reply down the line directly behind tait and god damn it his foot does seem to bounce off the line before he tries the ball. but yeah it's a very difficult call and harsh not to give it, and the aussie TV adjudicator is a cunt etc.

top cat hows that lottery selling job working for you? it sounds like fun to be honest

it's a decent lark, i'm getting a good wage for an hour and half's work and i get into the game for free so as far as it goes it's a good enough way to spend a few saturdays a year. plus what with all the people it doesn't really get boring at any time.

Newcastle win well again, if we could start winning away from home we'd be right up there come the end of the season. Cacapa looks a class act, Faye is a fucking BEAST, and Owen, Martins and Viduka will always score goals, and Emre looks like he got a rocket up his arse from Fat Sam. Long may it continue.

And lol @ Jenas. Most over-rated player probably to ever exist. How he gets anywhere near any premiership side at all is beyond me.

it's a decent lark, i'm getting a good wage for an hour and half's work and i get into the game for free so as far as it goes it's a good enough way to spend a few saturdays a year. plus what with all the people it doesn't really get boring at any time.

sounds good, how did you get the job? i have a few mates who work for chelsea tv and the website, but they're millwall and arsenal fans respectively, and it took them ages to get to do anything interesting.


Newcastle win well again, if we could start winning away from home we'd be right up there come the end of the season. Cacapa looks a class act, Faye is a fucking BEAST, and Owen, Martins and Viduka will always score goals, and Emre looks like he got a rocket up his arse from Fat Sam. Long may it continue.

And lol @ Jenas. Most over-rated player probably to ever exist. How he gets anywhere near any premiership side at all is beyond me.

say what you like about fat sam but he's a good manager; he gets through to players and seems to get them fired up well

AND I'M THERE
LOOKING UP AT THE SKY
AND I'M SCARED
THINKIN' 'BOUT THE WAY THAT
I DON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING AT ALL
AND HOW IT OVERTAKES ME
AND I AM JUST SO SMALL
DO I STAND
A CHANCE?

Man, Slavia Prague must not be very happy, but Arsenal were amazing last night.

Not looking forward to welcoming the arsenal to anfield next sunday :(

Also, stan finally got the chop. Huzzah.

say what you like about fat sam but he's a good manager; he gets through to players and seems to get them fired up well

who said he wasnt =o

Staunton's finally gone; who's going to replace him? I hope it's someone equally crap so we can beat Ireland and finish third in this group.

sounds good, how did you get the job? i have a few mates who work for chelsea tv and the website, but they're millwall and arsenal fans respectively, and it took them ages to get to do anything interesting.

my mum knows the wife of one of the directors so she basically offered me a job. most of the people who work for the club get it through personal connections or just being in the right place at the right time, though, to be honest.

Sp. Braga will win against Bolton tonight, i'm sure.

Sp. Braga will win against Bolton tonight, i'm sure.

LOL. So am I.


say what you like about fat sam but he's a good manager; he gets through to players and seems to get them fired up well

Mang, just look at Bolton's record with him in charge, and their form this season. I thought the FA should have given Big Sam the England job instead of McClaren.

who said he wasnt =o


Mang, just look at Bolton's record with him in charge, and their form this season. I thought the FA should have given Big Sam the England job instead of McClaren.

guy gets a lot of flak for the whole bung thing, long ball football criticisms etc. but of course his record shows he gets results and he gets players from all walks behind him, and of course he would have kicked the england camp into shape and have them playing more consistently then mclaren, who is simply a continuation of the eriksson style


my mum knows the wife of one of the directors so she basically offered me a job. most of the people who work for the club get it through personal connections or just being in the right place at the right time, though, to be honest.

fair dos, ive got a few jobs in the past through mates or family referring me. as long as you get your job done innit

i enjoyed the CL this week :) kudos to arsenal and milan, some stunning football from them. united confident against a really lazy kiev defence, but they aren't perfect in defence themselves, and if a couple of teams can open them up and exploit that, then we could see them falter. arsenal liverpool should be interesting, pool had started so well this season, look at them now haha.

Very good result today; taking something from Anfield is always difficult and a draw is a fine result. Didn't see it but from my understanding we actually deserved the win, which bodes well that we can go away to big teams and perform at a very high capacity.

Arsenal played some superb football and were good value for a point, at the very least. Should have left with all 3, imo. Seeing how they hit the post twice, and basically missed 2 open goals. Man USA next week is the big one for them.

manchester winz again

haha, we absolutely dicked citeh, even owners mate scored at the end; mate tells me lampard and drogba still after the exit though, and when the african nations comes around we'll be without drogba, kalou, essien and obi which won't help things, especially with the crowded fixture list. i think you can count chelsea out of the title race to be honest; also fickle fickle fans

also fickle fickle fans

its chelsea, are you surprised. the modern football fan is more plastic then a newsreader on Fox.

its chelsea, are you surprised. the modern football fan is more plastic then a newsreader on Fox.

english fans aren't even the worst, i hear spanish fans make ours look like nationalist war veterans for loyalty in comparison. drogba slates the club and states quite categorically he wants to leave, but a few good performances and goals later he's the apple of the crowds eyes again; he is clearly going to leave, without even needing anyone who works at the club to tell me straight.

i typed out a paragraph trying to pigeonhole richer exhibitionist searching football fans but it's just easy for match going fans to be fickle, and everyone knows these things anyway

yeah, the white scarfs and all that. they come out when barca or real madrid arent winning every game 8-0

good lord, the spanish fickle? am I maybe watching the wrong league or did martin jol just get sacked.....what 10 games into the season? after 2 top 5 finishes? and on the white handkerchiefs.....they are brought out if a team does not play well regardless of score, while they may not be if they lose 2-0 but play
the "real madrid way"(kinda like the famous spurs way which they played for 2 years and they go on all the time) by the way, I ain't a spurs basher, they're just a good example, I hate Manure and Col U. always have, always will ^^

because of course, the only indication that a player gives a shit about bartha or rayyal and is putting the effort and heart into his play and time there is the fact that he's so fucking good at football that even seasoned top division pros shit themselves when they come face to face with said player.

and at some clubs like zaragoza i think if you're black then lol your 'fans' will take to you like a fish to water

shurek, we're not disputing the fact that english clubs and fans are on par with the spanish.

hammers beat cov, shit.

The unveiling of Juande Ramos as Tottenham's new manager has been derided as 'shambolic', 'embarrassing' and a 'farce' after the club's chairman, Daniel Levy, refused to attend. It's understood that Levy was in White Hart Lane while the press conference was being held but preferred instead to watch it on close-circuit television. He was thus spared from answering questions about the nature of Martin Jol's departure, but he must have been aghast at the contradictions made by both Ramos and Comolli. According to the Frenchman, the club did not tell Jol that they expected Champions League qualification this season. "We just said we wanted to do as well as possible and do better, year on year, that's all," he insisted. "No one told Martin we had to achieve Champions League football."

D'oh! Despite his job title, Spurs' Director of Football evidently hadn't read the message sent out by Levy via the club's official website on August 21 which announced: "We want Champions League football. We are an ambitious club and we have discussed our expectations with Martin." Speaking through an interpreter, Ramos also appeared to have been inflicted with amnesia. Despite being photographed leaving a Spanish hotel in August with the then Tottenham vice-chairman Paul Kemsley and club secretary John Alexander, Ramos stunned reporters by declaring: "I can honestly say I didn't meet any one of the Tottenham directors."

Asked why he had subsequently told the Spanish media at a televised press conference that Spurs had made him a "dizzying" offer, Ramos pleaded misquotation. "I didn't say that," he maintained.

rofl

so england are going to bid for the 2018 world cup, that should be interesting. if we get it, it makes a pretty decent series of sporting events we'll be holding around that decade so it's all coming close to home we've got a strong chance, too, because of the sheer length since we last had it.

i reckon you have a real chance of getting it.

as long as we can put a decent bid together i think we've got as good a chance as anyone.

i think the others are china, russia, australia, the benelux nations (lol), the US and mexico. none of those bids can be written off, realistically (china are hosting the olympics and if that goes well, skys the limit, US and mexico have both hosted world cups, belgium and holland have decent infrastructures and footballing cultures, aussie and russia may be tenuous bids) but there's no reason why england, with its own infrastructure, history of tournaments (66, 96), footballing culture and history and higher ups in the footballing authorities can't sort this. 2012 and then 2018? would do wonders for sport in england

meanwhile, the british olympic association want to instate a british football team into the next olympics. yeah, i somehow doubt that idea will get off the ground guys

if they did have an olympic team they'd probably win as it'd be full of the young english players who'd actually give a shit unlike pampered pricks like lampard.

Good win for Arsenal Kidz and amazing goal by Shevchenko.

As for the English bid, it probably stands a good chance but be careful about writing off the other bids, the British media is giving them no coverage so we don't know how strong they are or are not as the case may be; we are blinkered which makes us biased. Anyway, there is Wembley, Old Trafford, the Emirates, Eastlands, Stanley Park by that stage, Stamford Bridge, St. James' Park, Villa Park and I reckon they would extend the bid to contain, at the very least, Cardiff if not Hampden too, so overall, very solid.

A lot of it will depend on how well we're doing with the Olympics. If we can put on a good show there we'll have a real chance. In terms of facilities, security and infrastructure Britain's got the goods. I'm glad FIFA have ditched the "alternating continents" rule.

god Arsenals young players are fucking amazing. in ability, attitude and the way they conduct themselves off the pitch, infront of the media, everything. ill say it before, and ill say it again, Wenger > all

=D

i'm predicting a score draw/narrow arsenal win on saturday, ftr. i think arsenal will dominate possesion, but Utd with Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo will cause problems.

also, play Milner and Zog tommorow plz Sam.

The fact it is at the Emirates is in our favour but I think Man Utd are still the best team in the league. A win would be a marvelous result but even a draw would be okay and probably the most likely outcome.

Good win for Arsenal Kidz and amazing goal by Shevchenko.

As for the English bid, it probably stands a good chance but be careful about writing off the other bids, the British media is giving them no coverage so we don't know how strong they are or are not as the case may be; we are blinkered which makes us biased. Anyway, there is Wembley, Old Trafford, the Emirates, Eastlands, Stanley Park by that stage, Stamford Bridge, St. James' Park, Villa Park and I reckon they would extend the bid to contain, at the very least, Cardiff if not Hampden too, so overall, very solid.

can't say things are ever boring at chelsea eh :) and lampard has raised his game again. it's clear he's not happy though as if he was he wouldn't let his game drop at all, as it has done in fluctuations in the last few years. and i do think he gives more of a shit about chelsea then england, which is gay of him, but nobodies loss at all if mclaren wises up and ditches him completely in favour of barry (not hargreaves, either; he had a good world cup and he's still living off the resulting favour, although he is undoubtedly a good solid player) by the same token, beckhams stardom is a further destabilising aspect of his game and sure enough one or two of his long balls will hit the spot in a match but to sacrifice flowing passing play for 30 odd attempts at this at his behest? owen seems to be revered unnecessarily too, although unlike aforementioned he comes up with the goods. gerrard should put the same drive into his game as he does with liverpool, and not miss really easy chances like he did against russia. i think it's disgraceful how much a player of defoes quality is ostracised from the side.

as for the england world cup bid, this articles weighs up their chances and those of the other contenders pretty well (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=477641&cc=5739)


if they did have an olympic team they'd probably win as it'd be full of the young english players who'd actually give a shit unlike pampered pricks like lampard.

that's a funny prediction about a GB team; i don't know about northern ireland, but wales and scotland have some pretty good young players that would make the side. (that would be the whole point of the exercise, anyway) and besides, argentina, brazil and a number of other nations have some exceptional yoof teams that would seriously challenge any GB or indeed england team

excellent game on saturday, 3-0 after 11 minutes is something special

lol, Newcastle.

they pratically handed pompey the goals, downright embarrasing tbh.


as for arsenal man ure, pretty much what i expected.

Portsmouth 4 - 1 Newcastle.

HOORAY!

this year's prem has had some high scoring games thus far...

well unless it's derby around.

we scored more in one game than they've got all season

we're all over them

edit - oh my sweet tits, the 5th was majestic

edit the 2nd - the 6th weren't bad neither

benayoun is having a stormer

a triumphant third edit - i am in WONDERLAND

man, i wish jester were still about ;(

Man, we go and equal the record two weeks ago just for you to go break it ;(

my goodness.

holy fuck what a result for Bolton

incredible

and ruud gullit's the boss of la galaxy
what fun

holy fuck what a result for Bolton

Fair to say that we're all pretty gobsmacked up here.

How did Gary Megson engineer a draw with Munich?

team bath vs chasetown in the FA cup tomorrow

i cannot contain my excitement.

well well, going into the weekend with some confidence. looking to smash the granny out of the cottagers at home.

i.e. scrap a 0-0 draw

my expectations are dancing with hitler

argyle game was decent today, norwich look shocking though. i feel for their fans.

as per the rest, 2 5-0s and a 6-0 - this is a high-scoring season, isnt it? hell of a lot of massive victories going on.

Luton 1 - Brentford 1

We deserved too loose. We played wank today.

thank fuck we didnt lose is all i can say. awful performance, lucky goal but we showed some guts after we went a goal down.

Just watched the Barca game; what a shambles. People criticise Henry but, in fairness, they aren't even passing to him, it is pretty sad to see him so marginalised. Anyway, yeah, Getafe look a solid side all the same.

Henry isnt the focal point like he was for Arsenal at his peak. Everything went through him. Only natural his influence is going to wane in that Barca side.

thank fuck we didnt lose is all i can say. awful performance, lucky goal but we showed some guts after we went a goal down.

barton's a thug, though, what he did just before the end of the half is disgusting and has no place in football.

cant say i liked it myself. hopefully sam will have words with him.

Funniest Accidental Goal I've seen from Newcastle, against Sunderland too. Lol!
We robbed those mackem bastards, and what a way to do it. Milner!
I actually thought Barton was going to rip that Ethulhu bloke's head off when he came up to him like that. I'm surprised he didn't deck him or at least budge.

Anyway we got a point, we robbed the mackems, again, that's all that matters.

i think the others are china, russia, australia, the benelux nations (lol), the US and mexico. none of those bids can be written off, realistically (china are hosting the olympics and if that goes well, skys the limit, US and mexico have both hosted world cups, belgium and holland have decent infrastructures and footballing cultures, aussie and russia may be tenuous bids) but there's no reason why england, with its own infrastructure, history of tournaments (66, 96), footballing culture and history and higher ups in the footballing authorities can't sort this. 2012 and then 2018? would do wonders for sport in england

meanwhile, the british olympic association want to instate a british football team into the next olympics. yeah, i somehow doubt that idea will get off the ground guys

England's already got the olympics of 2012. I'm surprised if they also want the 2018 World Cup. Anyway, the Bene(lux) deserves it :).

Rage I just saw you posting so I thought I'd post in here too.

Ash if you said something new i reckon you'd actually be funny.

Rage I just saw you posting so I thought I'd post in here too.

OK, whateversy.

I just post Pok�mon nonsense now. I'm too lazy to do that weird Garamond sword junk and spam it up by adding 'sy' to the end of everything.

I can make a Pok�mon card if you want./

After all those years... You've finally become normal... somewhat.. to some degree.

Actually, I'm just acting somewhat normal talking to you. Generally I'm much worse that I was before, at least some would say. I post like "u r so bad mario please don't marry daisy it is peach who loves you!!!!!" and then other junk and junk and junk and junk.

...

You see, I also use the

...

A lot.

...

Still getting people all worked up, eh? Chronic stressors cause early deaths. I wonder how many people have been affected by those small irritations: the average life span of people on a forum you're on is five years less of that of people from other forums.

Mike, you'll die early.

3-1, back to the top of the table, to where we belong.

Also, where we will remain forever and ever!

Bwa ha ha!

I had a dream last night Duo and we were fourth but we had two games in hand on everybody and could go four points clear if we won them both. Bit of a shit dream, I guess, I mean it was just a means of presenting data.

I watched Coventry vs West Brom and not the Arsenal game because i know the former is going to be more interesting.

Dreams are crazy, I had forgotten all about that dream until I opened this thread. Now I have opened it, I remember the specific table was the little one on the side on the Times' Football pages. Anyway kids, keeping a dream diary is the first step toward achieving lucidity in your dreams.

Did you know that Mike Newell asked Ash Ketchum to go one on one?

I'm going to Russia on Saturday. Any message from the English I should pass on to the Russians? I mean, they totally kicked your arses. And they had a little Dutch input as well. A personal hero; Guus Hiddink.

Well, if you actually go to Ruskieland, please tell the Russians that Mike Newell should be the next Ruskie manager.

i wanted to pop over to Tel-Aviv for the russia match, but i am working friday and monday, so there was no point. I will be stuck in wales in an Israel shirt being the only one supporting them :(

Fucking amazing.

50 charges, and Mike Newell was right all along.

Cocking FA and their cocking rules.

Next it'll emerge that all women officials have been involved in a match-fixing racket.

Poor wimmin.

Lucky English. :p

Although, it would make me rofl a lot if you now went on to lose to Croatia next week.

Also, unlucky Scotland.

Also, unlucky Scotland.

yeah, i've been really pleased that scotland have battled well in a hard group and shown up a few sides. and up until about a week ago i was actually hoping that they qualified.

do you listen to talksport?

i generally do on the way to/from work and sometimes of an evening depending on games. the amount of anti-english barbs we've had to endure over the last week from the jocks is pathetic. all because of some dumb historic nonsense that has nothing to do with football.

so fuck you, scotland. enjoy your summer :-*


also, how do you feel about toshack atm? seems like another staunton situation to me.

=/

also, how do you feel about toshack atm? seems like another staunton situation to me.

Last month against Cyprus and San Marino was ridiculous, but it was much better today. He's probably bought himself some time. We matched an Irish team full of Premiership regulars. Bearing in mind we had mostly Championship players with a few Premiership fringe and one or two regulars on the pitch puts it into perspective.

We've got to play Germany away now in our last qualifier which means zero points, so we'll probably finish 5th or 6th as Slovakia finish with a game in San Marino.

He'll have to do a lot better in the next campaign to get a new contract though. His contract runs out at the end of the World Cup 2010 qualifiers, if we at least challenge seriously for qualification he'll get an extension I'd have thought.

so fuck you, scotland. enjoy your summer :-*


How is that any different from English fans hating on the Germans or French, or even the Portuguese for that matter, though?

owen injured again, if it wasnt so comical it'd be tragic.

england are such a bad team, maybe they wont even get the point they need

I wonder what the odds are for England not qualifying... :/ Might be worth a bet. That way I win either way... :)

Uh, yes, I am confident.

england are such a bad team, maybe they wont even get the point they need

i'm sorry, but this is really dumb.

yeah, they're not as good as the media and some really stupid supporters like to tell us they are (one guy on the radio said they should be topping this group by 6 points by now, for example), but considering before the russia game they won five 3-0 on the spin, plus played brazil and germany off the park in two friendlies, they're not bad at all.

going to croatia russia and israel was never going to be easy, when you consider their records at home. it's the sheer arrogance of the fans and the media that think we should just turn these teams over in their own backyard.

and people should get off mcclarens back. no, he wasn't the right man for the job and i don't particularly like the guy, but venomously turning on him just because of a defeat in the russian winter on a PLASTIC PITCH? just smacks of a bit unfair. particularly with the luck he's had with injuries.


How is that any different from English fans hating on the Germans or French, or even the Portuguese for that matter, though?

yeah but the point is you don't get english fans ringing up portugese, german and french radios taunting them. and i think the english have just reason to hate the portugese in footballing terms. what's scotlands excuse?

they still arent good enough to win a major tournament though.

At least they aren't as horrible as Belgium or San Marino.

ENGLAND VS ARGENTINA

FALKLANDS 72

I used to really like james whale's show on talksport when i was younger. i don't listen to it now because i dont have a radio. i could listen online, but it wouldnt be the same.

Sweet Lofthouse's minny, have you seen the state of that pitch?

PLUSSY: Is it just me or does the BBC's crack commentating squad increasingly sound like parodies of themselves?

"Anything can happen"

"We must be positive"

"England did brilliant on the day - we just didn't win"

McClaren: "It's going to be a 90 minute game" REALLY?

hahahahahah oh my god

comedy goals galore tonight

what is going on

ULTIMATE LOL AT WEMBLEY

i honestly hope they keep it up we dont qualify. too many times england have scraped the barrel and scrapped through to major tournaments to predictably shock the world and their opponents with their sheer mediocrity that belies their talent and their incredible arrogance, as well as that of the media that represents us.

knowing england and watching the croatians flounder in defence, im sure england will scrape the two required goals. probably a hollywoodgoldenballs special in the dying seconds. if that does lamentably happen, i hope it's met with a fucking round of jeering. if we qualify, then mclaren will probably stay in a job despite all the rightful criticism that will come his way, because the FA wont be forced by the lack of presence at a major tournament, and the circus will carry on.

the team is a disgrace of overconfidence, borne from that prick, who's done nothing but continue the complacent, scrappy, elitist mantra of eriksson. i want to see croatia win because then the fierce criticism coupled with the humiliation of how SHIT we were might force a fucking change for the better. the team has enough talent for it.

another amazing comeback, another mediocre tournament with overinflated hopes on a group of players who struggle to play in our top division. we don't deserve to win. first half - comedy troupe. we're actually a team now but if we qualify... we're still shit.

edit: 3-2. great goal.

I had to watch the England game instead of ours because apparently there are about 100 times more English people in Aberystwyth uni than Welsh. Needles to say, the three of us lost the popular vote in our attempt to get Germany v Wales shown so we watched England instead.

England were shockingly poor, even though I secretly hoped you'd get through as I still don't like the Russians for Euro 2004. The skill levels of the Croats on a mudbath were far higher than England's; added to which England's tactics were totally one-dimensional and you didn't really change anything. I think you deserved to lose by more to be honest although I still think you deserve to be there more than Russia who can count themselves very lucky.

another amazing comeback, another mediocre tournament with overinflated hopes on a group of players who struggle to play in our top division. we don't deserve to win. first half - comedy troupe. we're actually a team now but if we qualify... we're still shit.

edit: 3-2. great goal.

well put. posted an essay on the travesty in the england croatia thread. good fucking riddance.

in other news... poland finish top of their group (fucking get in, jedziemy, my family's polish you see, born in england but have split loyalties), portugal second, finland and serbia played well but couldnt pip them. holland lose to belarus so they dont finish in the top seed pot, which with austria, switzerland and greece in it as previous winners and hosts will actually be weaker then the second seed pot for the group draw for the main tournament.

McClaren out, Newell in.

well that's shut me up.

my appologies for anyone who i told off in this thread. you were right all along. they really are that bad.

i don't think they've got much option but to sack the manager now. still don't think it's all his fault though. we just are not that good.

=/

the england team dont seem to want to play, their hearts arnt in it

well, im still loling, although the F(ucking)A(rseholes) are making the usual noises. remains to be seen what happens.

also, i would like to say that the problem of foreigners in the premiership is not a problem considering the fact european law covers it (for some nationalities at least) and it being a reaction to the dearth of organisation and the pursuit of immediate success instead of building the grassroots. also, a far too rigid tactical approach to young players. there are plenty of englishmen in the premiership, too - it's just that most of them are aimless opportunistic journeymen.

that said, pearcey's U-21 side is looking good :) i'm even beginning to think that it was a good idea to appoint him U-21 boss first, instead of signing him for the first team ahead of mclaren as i hoped 18 months ago. perhaps, a hidden backup masterstroke by the FA? a few more years experience, building a young side that he might later inherit as the full england manager, especially if the good form continues... who knows. i'm hoping, anyway

McClaren out, Newell in.

100% agree.

10 point deduction for Luton.

Stupid rule from a piece of wank FA who can't do anything right.

looks like no-one wants it. poisoned chalice tbh

i think a complete overhaul of grass roots football in england should be a priority over chosing the next manager. not just for england, but for all the home nations really.

having said that, mourinho being ruled out i don't like any of the other candidates at all.

the generation coming through now are the first of the academy lot. in a few years we'll see how good they are and how far they've got us. until then we need to focus on the grass-roots because that's the major way for us to go. quotas on foreigners will only make the PL worse - if english players were good enough, and not ludicrously expensive (in both transfer fees and wages), then they would get into these teams. just because the PL is now rich and powerful enough to be able to get talented players from across the globe doesn't mean we should impose any quotas on it when our players are shown to not be able to compete.

lol @ newcastle.

its downright embarrasing now. mind boggling tactics and mentallity, and Torres should have scored at least 5.

gj Bolton though, holy shit.

I think everyone knows that Bolton are a little too good to be heading towards the Championship and that sort of result was just the tonic.

i hate soccer lets talk about the real football go pats

cant believe Rafa is facing the boot. its outrageous tbh.

it seems English football has caught Spanish footballs infection of boardroom politics affecting every aspect of the club. a sad day indeed.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=485067&root=england&cc=5739&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

'Billy Davies' exit from Derby County on Monday means almost a quarter of managers in the English professional leagues have been ousted since the start of the season. It's a remarkable state of affairs when we haven't reached the end of November.'

wtf? genuinly shocking.

holy shit.

but yeah, that highlights how insane fans and pressure is these days.

2 bad results and the crowd turn on you.

its a cancer sweeping through England which needs to be cured if you lot are ever going to win a major championship.

Thanks to England's loss and Guus Hiddink, a Dutch man, being Russia's manager, it didn't take much to get laid in Russia last week. Thank you England for losing to Croatia.

And lucky PSV Eindhoven; they did manage to beat the Russians. We survive the European winter, CSKA - PSV, 0-1

Yo football people sorry to intrude. Yea, I just don't like the "professional fan" guys, who get paid to sit on a bench and drink water their whole career.

Ok-- later.

Jose Mourinho is ready and willing to talk to the Football Association about becoming the new England manager.

The former Chelsea boss has emerged as the fans' favourite to take over the reins from Steve McClaren, who was dismissed last week after his failure to lead England to the Euro 2008 finals.

FA chief executive Brian Barwick is set to begin his hunt for England's new boss within the next week - and Mourinho admits he would welcome an approach.

my goodness.

Yo football people sorry to intrude. Yea, I just don't like the "professional fan" guys, who get paid to sit on a bench and drink water their whole career.

Ok-- later.

make that double

my goodness.

i would get down on my hands and knees and give him a blow job in front of my mum and dad if he took the job.

seriously, just fucking appoint the man.

Where did you hear about Mourinho?

I've looked all over and found sweet FA (pun only semi-intended) :D

It was in the Sun.

and the observer on sunday

i personally would be ecstatic if mourihno took charge. absolutely the best man for the job


also, 'arry, lol. saw that one coming a mile off really though didn't we.

One time a person came into the shop I work in on a Sunday and asked for the Sunday Guardian and I said that the Sunday Guardian was actually the Observer but they disagreed with me and left without buying a paper. Bastard.

lol mossy

mourinho would get the team playing efficient and very unnatractive football, lampard would be a guaranteed starter, we'd win everything, we'd fast become the most hated team in the world, probably dive a little more, siege mentality, more fierce rivalry between fans in the stands and pubs at euros and WC, and he'd absolutely fucking fleece the FA for all it's worth. like, seriously, he'll negotiate himself a contract that will bring the FA to its knees financially.

Mourinho would be popular for his personality, but certainly not for his style of football. But I really doubt he'd go for England, to be honest.

lol mossy

mourinho would get the team playing efficient and very unnatractive football, lampard would be a guaranteed starter, we'd win everything, we'd fast become the most hated team in the world, probably dive a little more, siege mentality, more fierce rivalry between fans in the stands and pubs at euros and WC, and he'd absolutely fucking fleece the FA for all it's worth. like, seriously, he'll negotiate himself a contract that will bring the FA to its knees financially.

I appreciate this is humour Will, but the key points still remain key points. If Mourinho was appointed manager of England then I very much doubt they'd play unnatractive football. It's a whole different kettle of fish. I can't understand why everyone assumes Mourinho to be a defensively minded manager when infact, hold on a second, he actually goes out and wins Champions League trophies and Premier League titles.

You can't criticise a manager that has actually been there and done it on every level bar the one he's not had the oppourtinity to deal with. McClaren was a joke from start to finish. God only knows why he was appointed Sven's right hand man never mind the full England manager. What did he achieve? Boro in a UEFA Cup Final. Jesus FA, get real.

I'm not saying that Mourinho would walk into the job and immediately have them playing silky football, or even defensive football or whatever but he'd have a winning mentality that has gone with him everywhere he's gone. If Lampard is a key part of that, then so what? If the entire squad revolves around a Chelsea mantle, then so what? England fans are so quick to follow the 'what is generally agreeable at the time' notion.

I AM ALSO DRUNK.

i don't think mourinho's style is to play that much attractive football, it's really all about win at all costs. and given what he's got to work with at england, i don't think he'll have much success trying to play any kind of attractive football.

but tbh i think every england fan now wants us to actually WIN something tangible, and it's got to the stage that i don't think we'd care how we won it.

dive better than the italians, cheat better than the portugese, whinge better than the french, and grind out a drab 0-0 draw just to go through on penalties like the germans. we know we can do it!

and grind out a drab 0-0 draw just to go through on penalties like the germans. we know we can do it!

Except whenever it's penalties, the English bottle it like the, uh, well, English...

EDIT: Horsham F.C on Sky Sports TV? What parallel Universe am I in?

And I highly doubt that "everyone" in the town is there.

i don't think mourinho's style is to play that much attractive football, it's really all about win at all costs. and given what he's got to work with at england, i don't think he'll have much success trying to play any kind of attractive football.

since when did england play attractive football in the first place though?

its a results orientated business, and mourinho WILL bring results, so the brand of football is irrelevant. if it happens to be winning and attractive, then great.

....

that's pretty much what i said

=/

Except whenever it's penalties, the English bottle it like the, uh, well, English...

Quoted for hilarious truth.

Arsenal - Aston Villa: 2-1.

How about that.

I HATE YUU, SORENSEN; I FRICKIN' DO.

5 points clear at the top ^_^

not for long, united will beat fulham tommorow. hehe
also did anyone see the birmingham goal today?

also im new and this is my first post on this thread

watch out mossy, we're coming to get yooo :-*

True enough man. It is awfully tight between all of the big four this season, which is weird, the previous two seasons it has been the big two of Chelsea and United and the next two of Liverpool and Arsenal more than a unified big four.

what is gunna be good to see though, is when the african nations cup comes about in like febuary or whenever it is, arsenal and chelsea will lose a few of their important players, which could effect them, this'll be the chance us and liverpool need to take advantage of it and hopefully gain some ground on arsenal, and make the gap between us and chelsea greater. but we will have to wait and see. thats just my opinion.

"Newcastle midfielder Joey Barton believes a "high power" will judge him on his actions when he dies.

The 25-year-old is expected to appear in court next year charged with occasioning actual bodily harm on former Manchester City team-mate Ousmane Dabo, although he insists he did nothing wrong.

He has also attracted negative headlines after stubbing out a cigar in the eye of a City youth team player at a Christmas party and assaulting a 15-year-old boy on a pre-season trip to Thailand with the Blues.

Barton has never been anything less than candid in interviews - most recently he called Newcastle fans' treatment of manager Sam Allardyce "vicious" - but insists he will ultimately judged on his words and actions by a higher being.

"With things that have happened you become more spiritual, and I think the main thing for me is I don't think I'd ever be judged on this earth," he said.

"I think at the end of the day you can do whatever you want to do here.

"There's one person standing there and that's you, and you've got to answer to every decision you've made. Whatever high power it is, when you finally meet him.

"Whether it be right or wrong, I believe when I stand in front of my maker then I can say to him 'yeah, I did this for this reason; this, that for this reason'."

D: D: D: D:

ROFL, i watched that last night,, what a wa**er, why cant the bloke just admit to the things he's done wrong and say he is genuinly sorry. i have watched his career for a few years, and the man is a waste of space, " oh, i have played for england when nobody thought i would.." yes mate, like 4 times, including the under 21's,. cunt. he is a bully, a coward, and a shit footballer all rolled into one, i hope he gets sent down, and gets sexually abused in the shower,..fucking gobshite twat....l

I wouldn't say Barton is a shit footballer, but he is a thug and he is temperamental. If he could calm the head he'd be alright.

how big will arsenals winning margin be tommorow mossy?

im going for 2-0 to you guys, we're a wounded animal atm and will fight, but class will show.

I think Arsenal will win 4-1. Newcastle still can't defend for shit, even though Allardyce has been there for around 6 months.

At what point do you just give up and realise you'll never have a decent team, no matter who you put in charge?

1996.

Ah, right.

Dunno Bryan, we have a leaky back line so I wouldn't bet against 2 or 3-1. Also: Sir Bobzotron Robson did a good job with Newcastle, though he faded at the end.

ja, apathy set in a long time ago. it goes away in fits and starts though when the team pretends to be competent and organised, but comes back pretty quickly.

i really thought he'd sort us out, but his constant chopping and changing has destabalised the team, and we dont have steven gerrard or torres so we dont get away with it.

barton is really the one football player who never fails to disgust me

he was giving it all that in a bbc interview a few days ago about how everyone kept giving him stick and abusing him for his behaviour. no shit there, he's a prick.

here's the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/n/newcastle_united/7124751.stm

he's done nothing wrong though, and if it was anyone else it wouldn't be noticed. though actually if it was anyone else he'd probably be midway through a prison sentence for gbh, but let's ignore inconvenient things like the truth.

correct

barton is really the one football player who never fails to disgust me

he was giving it all that in a bbc interview a few days ago about how everyone kept giving him stick and abusing him for his behaviour. no shit there, he's a prick.

here's the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/n/newcastle_united/7124751.stm

he's done nothing wrong though, and if it was anyone else it wouldn't be noticed. though actually if it was anyone else he'd probably be midway through a prison sentence for gbh, but let's ignore inconvenient things like the truth.

i agree

Not a bad result for us last night. Keeps Arsenal clear of United (for all us closet Arsenal fans i.e. anyone who doesn’t support United or Chelsea from 1998+) and means if we beat Reading, take United at Anfield and win our game in hand we’re pretty much in touch.

Thing that annoys me though is Arsenal and Liverpool invariably are always a game down as they miss the mid-week fixtures after the first weekend of Premiership action because of Champions League Qualifiers. This was Arsenals game which the missed. So why weren’t Liverpool playing there game in hand as well? Don’t see them playing any other matches this week.

=/

I figure once we have agger, alonso, and aurelio back fit we should be in really good shape to challenge, especially if hazza kewell can keep the jungle rot under control.

Transfer-wise, with lucas coming into his own I think poor oul momo is gonna have to set up a swiss bank account and head for serie a. I'd be more than suprised if a striker didn't set sail as well.

I've got a funny feeling max is gonna try a cheeky bid for anelka in jan. Himself and torres sounds like a tasty combo on paper. Might even be worth trying to snatch melberg on a free; he'd be decent cover at centre-half.

Pompey 3 - 1 Villa. The Away form continues...

Though as the next away game is against Liverpool, that might not last...

If Muntari hadn't been playing for you, you would have lost that game. IMO of course.

Seriously though what a performance.

Pompey 3 - 1 Villa. The Away form continues...

Though as the next away game is against Liverpool, that might not last...

best away form in the league and indifferent at home

how times change eh

arsenal lost, spurs won, the natural order of this season has been reversed. what is going on

are the wheels falling off arsenal?

they were abysmal yesterday, tbh. worst ive seen them in a long, long time.

Didn't watch the game but was literally stunned when I heard the result. As in, couldn't move or talk for like a minute. Boro have been really poor lately, relegation fodder really, so either they played out of their skins or Arsenal just weren't at the races.

Arsenal were poor, sure. But nothing must be taken away from the Middlesbrough performance. I was so impressed by the level of effort and commitment they showed. They chased everything for 90 minutes and didn't give up even when the second goal kept eluding them. Brilliant effort.

As for us, well what I said in I think my last post here sums it up. For as long as i've known us we can battle to get ourselves into a position where we can challenge, and then we bottle it. Awful. Rafa will be looking over his shoulder as Lippi, Mourinho and Capello thunder towards Anfield.

I am glad we are in a position to challenge for the title this season because in the previous two campaigns we'd have been ten points adrift by this stage. Even so, I don't think Arsenal are going to win the league and never have. I'm hopeful, but United should do it again.

I know Arsenal are going to win.

(I am a traveller of time)

o__O

Ohhhhh, Football!!! I thought you were discussing Football.
Eh, I've no problem with Football though, it's better than Football nowadays.
All these damn Football stars getting into trouble and getting shot up just for ratings. But Football keeps it traditional...with the sportsmanship.

All these damn Football stars getting into trouble and getting shot up just for ratings. But Football keeps it traditional...with the sportsmanship.

it's hard to know which sport you mean with which sentence these days

Luton 1 Notts Forest 0

They used to be famous, but from this game they are just wank. We were all over them for 90 minutes, and it should have been atleast 3-0

Bring on Liverpool.

Manchester United's Christmas party has been described as a 'horrendous cattle market' as lurid detail after lurid detail emerges of a 12-hour drinking spree that ended with one player questioned over allegations of rape and a livid Sir Alex Ferguson vowing that he would never allow his players such latitude again.

Ferguson might, in the words of one newspaper headline, have 'cancelled Christmas', but for Fleet Street, Christmas has come early. Reporting on the alleged excesses of the Manchester United players with questionable relish, it depicts their party as verging on the uncontrollable in the early hours of Tuesday morning.

While 19-year-old defender Jonny Evans has been released on bail after being questioned by officers over the alleged rape of a 26-year-old party-goer, it is the behaviour of his senior first-team colleagues that is dominating coverage.

The Times says that the mood of the day-long party soured as the squad - under the influence of 'testosterone and booze' - descended on the Great John Street Hotel to be met by approximately 100 of the 'prettiest girls in Manchester'. With none of the players' wives and girlfriends permitted to attend, 'models, ex-soap stars and well-known faces from Manchester's party circuit' were invited to provide the footballers with female company. A 'United insider' is quoted as saying in The Sun: "Only the best-looking were allowed in. They were hand-picked and very excited, almost in a state of hysteria."

According to The Independent, 'Every room in the 30-bedroom hotel, where prices range from �235 to �395 per night, was booked out by the squad' and, 'Each player was allocated a set number of guests and eight security men were hired to stop any unwanted intruders gaining entry and to confiscate all mobile phones, which were banned from being taken into the building.'

However, Daily Mirror showbiz reporter Sarah Tetteh claims to have been a guest at the party and reports how 'my friend and I' were personally treated to Wayne Rooney 'running through his personal repertoire of cheesy lines'.

'He came over and perched himself at the end of our sofa, asked us how old we were - and how we knew each other. When I explained we'd met at university, he raised his eyebrows and said: "I bet you two were naughty together at uni.

'"Did you do threesomes? You know, two girls and a lad?"' she reports.

Other accounts are less savoury, however. The Mirror says that 'one tearful woman guest claimed she had been repeatedly pestered by one of the club's stars'.

"It was horrible. This guy had been pestering me and my friends for ages trying to get us up to a bedroom. I kept telling him 'No' but he just wouldn't take it. He was really drunk as were the rest of them.

"Then he just grabbed me and started to drag me away from the main area towards the toilets. Thankfully the security man spotted what was going on and came to my help. was so relieved to see him. I was in tears. The players were treating girls like pieces of meat. It was like a horrendous cattle market."

Another guest told The Daily Telegraph that the party became increasingly debauched and sleazy as the hours of drinking began to take their toll.

"A lot of guys were looking for women, looking for sex," the unnamed man told the newspaper.

"A lot of women were dressed in little short skirts, they were falling over after a couple of drinks. By 3-4am you could see a lot of sexual situations were going to take place.

"There were one or two scuffles on the dance floor. Guys were falling over, just being loud and mouthy. There were a lot of undesirable people there, a bit rough. There were hangers-on.

"A lot of women were kissing guys, getting off with guys. It was like a free-for-all."

Manchester United have yet to comment formally on either details of the party or the allegations of rape. The Telegraph says that 'almost all' of the players had left the hotel when the attack is said to have occurred. However, a livid Ferguson 'read the riot act' to the squad when they returned to training on Wednesday and is understood to have told his players that they will never be allowed to host a Christmas party in future.


lawl

it's a jodie marsh - kenize kenz that stupid cockney twat from busted or some such other shit situation all over again.

not even dignifying it with my attention.

also, that fat zorro needs to be sacked.

it's a jodie marsh - kenize kenz that stupid cockney twat from busted or some such other shit situation all over again.

not even dignifying it with my attention.

well yeah, but its pretty funny.


also, that fat zorro needs to be sacked.

finally a pool fan that actually thinks he should get the bullet. you lads arent any closer to the title since he joined the club.

For all his rotating madness and cautious approach to matches, I still think Rafa is the man to win us the league. He just needs to be backed completely by the owners; no more half measures and empty promises. I've never seen a tighter pair of billionaires in my life.

The squad he inherited from houllier was dire. He got rid of the likes of diouf, murphy, traore, smicer, cheyrou, biscan, mellor, etc. and brought in the likes of alonso, reina, torres, agger, mascherano, garcia, lucas, babel, etc. And all on a pretty modest transfer budget, comparatively speaking. Not to mention the number of quality youngsters he's brought in since steve heighway shot the crow.

And let's not forget, in the 2005-2006 season he led us to our highest point total since the premier league began, with an FA cup on the side. Throw in 2 champions league finals, won one, one lost. A carling cup final, a european super cup and a charity shield.

I say give him one more season to try crack the premiership. Let the yanks dip the hand, tell him to sign whoever the piss he wants, and get the fuck out of his way. Put jolly old rick parry's fat nut in a jar on the shelf, and let rafa conduct the transfers himself. If he can't do it after all of that, i'll throw my hands up and say farewell to him.

In all seriousness though, who could we bring in to replace him anyway? If the yanks do get twitchy and give him the shove, we're instantly gonna lose the likes of reina, torres, alonso and the rest of the spanish inquisition. We'd be starting from scratch again and end up being another 4 poxy years off the pace.

bugger

For all his rotating madness and cautious approach to matches, I still think Rafa is the man to win us the league. He just needs to be backed completely by the owners; no more half measures and empty promises. I've never seen a tighter pair of billionaires in my life.

The squad he inherited from houllier was dire. He got rid of the likes of diouf, murphy, traore, smicer, cheyrou, biscan, mellor, etc. and brought in the likes of alonso, reina, torres, agger, mascherano, garcia, lucas, babel, etc. And all on a pretty modest transfer budget, comparatively speaking. Not to mention the number of quality youngsters he's brought in since steve heighway shot the crow.

And let's not forget, in the 2005-2006 season he led us to our highest point total since the premier league began, with an FA cup on the side. Throw in 2 champions league finals, won one, one lost. A carling cup final, a european super cup and a charity shield.

I say give him one more season to try crack the premiership. Let the yanks dip the hand, tell him to sign whoever the piss he wants, and get the fuck out of his way. Put jolly old rick parry's fat nut in a jar on the shelf, and let rafa conduct the transfers himself. If he can't do it after all of that, i'll throw my hands up and say farewell to him.

In all seriousness though, who could we bring in to replace him anyway? If the yanks do get twitchy and give him the shove, we're instantly gonna lose the likes of reina, torres, alonso and the rest of the spanish inquisition. We'd be starting from scratch again and end up being another 4 poxy years off the pace.

Yeah, but a lot of the good he has done and the points above are in the past. Yes, he's done a lot in cup competitions for us and I think we'll always love him for giving us perhaps two of the most entertaining and memorable finals in history (though the FA Cup final shows how he can get his tactics wrong). I'm not saying he's not done us a good turn over the past four years, i'm saying in the next four years I really don't see him delivering anywhere else but Europe, because I genuinely don't think he has the skills to master English football.

I've always agreed with Mourinho. Yes, it's great to win the Champs League or the FA Cup, but at the end of the day the best teams prove they are no.1 in their own country. And to do that you need to win the Premier League. At no point under Benitez have we looked like we are in the same league as United or Chelsea, and now this year Arsenal. I agree he's got us to our highest position, but Houllier got us playing scintillating stuff before he hit the glass ceiling as well.

I just feel you watch the other sides and while we can turn it on, like today, we just lack...something. Especially going forward. He's had the money and he's had the time, and yet four years later United are still in another league to us. And he compounds that with his continual unflinching rotation policy which has proven not to work, and is upsetting a large portion of the faithful.

And when you fear an away tie at Burnley or Forest in the domestic cups or United or Arsenal at home in the league, yet whenyou draw Barca or Inter in the Champs League and think we'll just turn them over, it's a really dumb situation to get yourself into.

And I don't think all the Spaniards will up and off if he goes. Particularly if they bring in someone like Lippi, who might add some much needed Italian steel and discipline in wide areas and some clinical finishing up front.

I think Houllier ran his course. And Benitez is in danger of going the same way. It's a question of whether we swap now to get the world class managers left on offer or wait until 2008/09 and have another clearout. It is a tough one.

For all his rotating madness and cautious approach to matches, I still think Rafa is the man to win us the league. He just needs to be backed completely by the owners; no more half measures and empty promises. I've never seen a tighter pair of billionaires in my life.

The squad he inherited from houllier was dire. He got rid of the likes of diouf, murphy, traore, smicer, cheyrou, biscan, mellor, etc. and brought in the likes of alonso, reina, torres, agger, mascherano, garcia, lucas, babel, etc. And all on a pretty modest transfer budget, comparatively speaking. Not to mention the number of quality youngsters he's brought in since steve heighway shot the crow.

And let's not forget, in the 2005-2006 season he led us to our highest point total since the premier league began, with an FA cup on the side. Throw in 2 champions league finals, won one, one lost. A carling cup final, a european super cup and a charity shield.

I say give him one more season to try crack the premiership. Let the yanks dip the hand, tell him to sign whoever the piss he wants, and get the fuck out of his way. Put jolly old rick parry's fat nut in a jar on the shelf, and let rafa conduct the transfers himself. If he can't do it after all of that, i'll throw my hands up and say farewell to him.

In all seriousness though, who could we bring in to replace him anyway? If the yanks do get twitchy and give him the shove, we're instantly gonna lose the likes of reina, torres, alonso and the rest of the spanish inquisition. We'd be starting from scratch again and end up being another 4 poxy years off the pace.

fact is, he's no closer to winning the league then houiller ever was.

and as minty just pointed out, the best team ALWAYS wins the league. in a cup competition, the draw can be kind to you(millwall making the fa cup final a few years back?), you can get some luck over 2-3 matches, etc etc.

not so in the league, its 38 games and the best team always wins, and rafa has never seriously challenged for it.

plus, apart from Torres, Babel and one or two others, i dont think he's signed many title winning players.

Unlucky Spurs.

Yeah, but a lot of the good he has done and the points above are in the past. Yes, he's done a lot in cup competitions for us and I think we'll always love him for giving us perhaps two of the most entertaining and memorable finals in history (though the FA Cup final shows how he can get his tactics wrong). I'm not saying he's not done us a good turn over the past four years, i'm saying in the next four years I really don't see him delivering anywhere else but Europe, because I genuinely don't think he has the skills to master English football. I agree his abilities as a manager seem more suited to cup competitions, but I still feel he can challenge for the league if given one more season.

As yourself and bryan pointed out, the premiership is a measure of where a club is truly at; 38 games over an entire season. His first season in charge was always going to be a write-off in my mind, especially with the poor squad we had at the time. We finished 1 point off 2nd place the year after, and even though chelsea ran away with it, I still feel we adequately challenged. Last year we finished 3rd without challenging, I accept that wasn't good enough. We still don't know where we'll finish yet this season, but we already have 8 points more at this stage of the season than we did last year.


I just feel you watch the other sides and while we can turn it on, like today, we just lack...something. Especially going forward. He's had the money and he's had the time, and yet four years later United are still in another league to us. And he compounds that with his continual unflinching rotation policy which has proven not to work, and is upsetting a large portion of the faithful. Again I agree, going forward with real menace is something we rarely do. The addition of torres has helped, but we're still a quality winger and striker away from where we need to be.

I don't agree that he's had the money, and I think it's a season early to say he's had the time. We never compete financially with united and chelsea, simply because we can't. Only this past summer have we actually attempted to do so, and the change in our attacking play is already very noticable compared to last season, while still not where it should be. The money he has spent has been minimal compared to the other two, and generally on low profile players to fill gaps, generally because he wasn't given to funds to go after his first choices. Granted, some of them didn't work out, but he shipped them on straight away, generally for more or less what we paid, give or take a million. Since he came to liverpool he's spent �127.44m. and sold �51.2m. So overall he's actually only been given a total of �76.24m to spend over 3 summer transfer periods, that's it.

As for rotation, it's a tricky subject. I'm personally of the opinion it can work well, but only if the squad is really strong, and ours isn't quite there yet. Paul Thompkins wrote a good article on the official site a while back about rotation. He compared the number of rafa's team changes per season to that of fergie, mourinho and wenger, and the results were pretty conclusive. He accounted for things like injuries and suspensions, so the results were only based on players that were actually rotated. I think last year in particular stood out; rafa made 1 more change to his team than fergie did over the course of a season. The difference was that united's squad was stronger than ours.


And I don't think all the Spaniards will up and off if he goes. Particularly if they bring in someone like Lippi, who might add some much needed Italian steel and discipline in wide areas and some clinical finishing up front. I really think even Lippi would struggle to talk some players from jumping ship. Torres would probably stay, if i'm being honest, but we'd certainly lose the likes of masch, alonso and quite possibly reina. And yes, Lippi could just go out and buy some players of his own. He could probably even attract a range of world class lads given his worldwide respect as a coach, but it would be pretty pointless unless he was given the proper cash to go out and get them, and certainly so if rick parry was in charge of getting them in the first place.


I think Houllier ran his course. And Benitez is in danger of going the same way. It's a question of whether we swap now to get the world class managers left on offer or wait until 2008/09 and have another clearout. It is a tough one.It's tricky alright. If we really want to go forward though, I think we need only to give max one more season. Give him �40m cash to spend in the summer, and allow him to keep whatever he raises himself from sales. That should put us comfortably over the 50 mill mark. He can go for his first choice targets, not having to settle for what's left. If he brought in Anelka, Silva, a good centre-half and possibly a left full, I think he'd have a complete squad. If he still can't do it, fair enough.


plus, apart from Torres, Babel and one or two others, i dont think he's signed many title winning players.Mascherano is fast becoming one of the best young holding midfielders in the world, he's 23. Lucas Leiva has bags and bags of potential. He even managed to win the Bola de Ouro in the Brazilian league, something previously given to the likes of Zico, Kaka, Romaria and Tevez. He's in his first season in england and he's already showing signs of his quality. He's 20 years old. Throw in the likes of: Daniel Agger (23 - one of the best young centre-halfs in the premiership), Pepe reina (25 - winner of the golden glove for the past 2 seasons, as well as breaking any number of liverpool goalkeeping records for clean sheets), Xabi Alonso (Internationally appreciated as a top class deep-lying playmaker) and I think it's fair to say rafa's brought in some very good players, especially if you consider value for money.

Mascherano is fast becoming one of the best young holding midfielders in the world, he's 23.

He is? Since when? Anderson, Fabregas, Mikel, hell even Flamini are far better players then him. He's simply a workhorse.

Also, Garcia,Sissoko, Zenden, Bellamy, Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Pellegrino, Gonzalez, Voronin and Benyaoun. None of which are the calbre of player Liverpool should be buying. Yeah, he's done well in cup competitions, but he hasnt seriously challenged for the league. And thats the real acid taste of a good side.

Also, that fat mackem cunt needs to sort things out or gtfo. Sharpish.

Bellamy is proven quality at international level as well as in the PL. If he sorted out his attitude which he looks like having done since he moved to West Ham, and stopped getting injured, he'd be good enough for any team in the league.

You of all people should know that Bryan, given how your team's form took a spectacular nosedive when he got injured and subsequently left Newcastle.

Mascherano is better than Flamini, too. And Anderson is unproven, seems to be hitting some sort of form, but he was poor for the first few months.

Just to clarify though, I don't think Liverpool will challenge for the league for a good few seasons yet. They rely too much on Gerrard, don't have a really good creative attacking midfielder and don't have a 20 goals a season striker. Whether Torres becomes that striker , only time will tell but I think it will be three or four years and some good signings in the right positions before Liverpool will challenge seriously.

He is? Since when? Anderson, Fabregas, Mikel, hell even Flamini are far better players then him. He's simply a workhorse.Since the 2006 World Cup. He was an integral part of a fantastic Argentina team. Granted, they didn't go as far as their talent suggested they would, but he proved himself well able to contend with big players on arguably the biggest stage in football. Hell, why do you think there was so much fanfare and suspicion when himself and tevez signed for west ham? It certainly wasn't because he was an average workhorse player. Since he came to liverpool, he's been putting in man of the match performances left, right and centre. Anderson has potential, but has done nothing yet to fully demonstrate he can fulfil that, save for recently hitting a good run of form with united. I wouldn't consider fabregas a holding midfielder either; he's more of a box to box midfielder or deep lying playmaker, depending on wenger's tactics. Flamini is a good young player, he definitely has to potential to be a top class player. Mikel is as average a player as i've seen. I'd go as far as to say he's a black version of darren fletcher. Although that would really be an injustice to fletcher as he's actually a nice lad, whereas mikel is just a plain cunt.



Also, Garcia,Sissoko, Zenden, Bellamy, Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Pellegrino, Gonzalez, Voronin and Benyaoun. None of which are the calbre of player Liverpool should be buying. Yeah, he's done well in cup competitions, but he hasnt seriously challenged for the league. And thats the real acid taste of a good side.Garcia scored a rake of import goals while playing for liverpool, he was a perfectly good buy. Sissoko was bought because he had something our side lacked, a powerful young workhorse to hassle opposing players. He was fantastic in his first season in the premiership, nearly lost his eye in the champions league the season after, and hasn't been the same since. He'll be gone by next summer. Gonzalez was one of the most highly rated south american youngsters in quite a while. He simply couldn't adjust to the premiership and life in england in general. Morientes was similar, he just couldn't adapt to the english style of playing. He went to Valencia and is still a top player. Voronin was a free btw. As for the rest, they may not be / were not liverpool standard, but they were sold on / will be sold on for more or less what they cost. Plughole players, nothing more. When the financial backing matches rafa's actual transfer desires, there'll be no need to sign such players.

Since the 2006 World Cup. He was an integral part of a fantastic Argentina team. Granted, they didn't go as far as their talent suggested they would, but he proved himself well able to contend with big players on arguably the biggest stage in football. Hell, why do you think there was so much fanfare and suspicion when himself and tevez signed for west ham? It certainly wasn't because he was an average workhorse player. Since he came to liverpool, he's been putting in man of the match performances left, right and centre.

I actually remember debating about him over msn with you one time before. I've never seen anything in him to suggest he's a world-class midfield player. You know as well as I do that a good world cup doesnt make a good player either. Case in point, Duff. Has he had a good run of form since 2002?




Garcia scored a rake of import goals while playing for liverpool, he was a perfectly good buy.

Not denying that, but he was a god awful player in general play though.


Sissoko was bought because he had something our side lacked, a powerful young workhorse to hassle opposing players. He was fantastic in his first season in the premiership, nearly lost his eye in the champions league the season after, and hasn't been the same since.

Bit harsh here I admit, I rated him very highly and such an experience is definetly going to affect someone mentally.


Gonzalez was one of the most highly rated south american youngsters in quite a while. He simply couldn't adjust to the premiership and life in england in general. Morientes was similar, he just couldn't adapt to the english style of playing. He went to Valencia and is still a top player.

It's Rafa's job to judge if the player is suitable for the style of play in the league though.


When the financial backing matches rafa's actual transfer desires, there'll be no need to sign such players.

17m for Mascherano and breaking the bank for Torres(best buy Liverpool have made for a long, long time granted) ISNT financial backing?


Also, Barton;

I actually remember debating about him over msn with you one time before. I've never seen anything in him to suggest he's a world-class midfield player. You know as well as I do that a good world cup doesnt make a good player either. Case in point, Duff. Has he had a good run of form since 2002?Granted, performing well in international competitions doesn't guarantee you a great player, but when it was a sustained performance in which he played every single minute of every game right up until they eventually finished 4th, I think it's pretty safe to say his performances in said competition were an apt measure of his potential ability. He's winning man of the match awards over the likes of torres and gerrard, both of whom are in fantastic form. That in itself should speak volumes. Maybe it's just easier for me to appreciate his talents, given I watch every single minute of every single liverpool match on tv, and audio commentary when that's not an option. I assume you're mostly looking at him through 10 minute windows on match of the day, so it's naturally going to be more difficult for you to judge his actual contributions. Match of the day could make titus bramble out to be a a rock solid centre half if they felt inclined; it's really not an accurate way to judge a player's performance.






Not denying that, but he was a god awful player in general play though. He was very frustrating in posession, I'll admit, but his positives far outweighed his negatives in my mind.




Bit harsh here I admit, I rated him very highly and such an experience is definetly going to affect someone mentally.Agreed. To be honest, sissoko is a confidence player, and being left out of the squad enitrely every 3 or 4 out of 5 games has not benefited him in the slightest. If he had a regular starting place every week, I have a feeling he'd be back to his best. That's why I think it best for both parties he be moved on, because he's not going to displace gerrard, alonso, mascherano, or even the young lad lucas.





It's Rafa's job to judge if the player is suitable for the style of play in the league though. True, but even so it's always going to be a hit and miss situation. Torres was a hit, morientes a miss. Hell, even fergie dropped 28 million on veron, and look how that turned out.




17m for Mascherano and breaking the bank for Torres(best buy Liverpool have made for a long, long time granted) ISNT financial backing?To be honest, we haven't even paid for him yet, he's still on loan. We do have an option to buy, but the transfer fee isn't 17m, it's considerably less. The newspapers just jumped on that figure, as they did with torres' supposed 26m deal. That 17m for masch includes wages for 4 years, iirc. So we're actually buying him for closer 12mm, if we're given the money for him at all. The yanks refusal to dip the hand for masch was part of the reason behind rafa's bust up with them. This past summer is the only transfer period where rafa has actually been backed somewhat, and even that wasn't anything substantial compared to united. Rafa raised half the funds for all his transfers through sales.


If Barton isn't sent down for some sort of meaningful period of time, I will lose any faith I had in the British judicial system. He's fucking scum.

Granted, performing well in international competitions doesn't guarantee you a great player, but when it was a sustained performance in which he played every single minute of every game right up until they eventually finished 4th, I think it's pretty safe to say his performances in said competition were an apt measure of his potential ability. He's winning man of the match awards over the likes of torres and gerrard, both of whom are in fantastic form. That in itself should speak volumes. Maybe it's just easier for me to appreciate his talents, given I watch every single minute of every single liverpool match on tv, and audio commentary when that's not an option. I assume you're mostly looking at him through 10 minute windows on match of the day, so it's naturally going to be more difficult for you to judge his actual contributions. Match of the day could make titus bramble out to be a a rock solid centre half if they felt inclined; it's really not an accurate way to judge a player's performance.

I wouldnt judge a player based on seeing highlights, ever. He's just never impressed me as a world-class player. World-class is a hugely over-used phrase too, in my book.




To be honest, we haven't even paid for him yet, he's still on loan. We do have an option to buy, but the transfer fee isn't 17m, it's considerably less. The newspapers just jumped on that figure, as they did with torres' supposed 26m deal. That 17m for masch includes wages for 4 years, iirc. So we're actually buying him for closer 12mm, if we're given the money for him at all. The yanks refusal to dip the hand for masch was part of the reason behind rafa's bust up with them. This past summer is the only transfer period where rafa has actually been backed somewhat, and even that wasn't anything substantial compared to united. Rafa raised half the funds for all his transfers through sales.

Wasn't really aware of the full details of the deal tbh. Saying that, the press like to exagerate the fees. We only paid 7m for Woodgate when they said it was 9.5m, similar with Milner, Duff, Owen etc etc.




If Barton isn't sent down for some sort of meaningful period of time, I will lose any faith I had in the British judicial system. He's fucking scum.

Here's hoping. Yet another fuck up by the fat mackem to go anywhere near him, when everyone else had the sense not to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7169108.stm

bollocks

If Barton gets done for just twatting some scousers, I think it'll leave a lot of the football community shitting bricks, it'll show that you can't get away with everything.

Now if only the Man U players were to receive something as melodramatic as this for that stupid party of theirs, these players need to be taught that they can't keep behaving like this whether or not they're footballers. Public Assault and 'Rape' or whatever they called the incident aren't something anyone would do anyway, celebrities are still people, except they're bloody rich...

Wow @ Everton, Birmingham and Blackburn. Quite a lot of giant killiing today I suppose.

Don't forget that Sunderland lost too man ;o

3-0 to Wigan. Haven't seen the highlights yet (I don't think I want to) :(

Looks like Valencia have just splashed €18m on Banega. Pretty good business given his age and talent.

haha, wiki edits ftw:


Internet sex scandal

In August 2007, Banega and his Boca teammate Jonathan Maidana were caught on webcam masturbating in a chatroom by somebody calling himself [email protected]. Both players have become gay icons as a result, and the clip has appeared on numerous websites and in the Spanish press following his move to Valencia CF

so, is Rafa getting sacked or what?

The papers are trying their best to make it happen, but I personally don't see it. If for no other reason than because the yanks would have to fork out around 6 million just to give him the chop, and we all know they're tighter than a nun's knickers.

The daily mail runs a new "BENITEZ ON THE VERGE OF BEING SACKED" story every day. It's entertaining stuff, if nothing else.

edit: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/01/08/rafa-benitez-why-the-hell-would-i-ever-want-to-quit-this-fantastic-club-100252-20323782/

That sums it up nicely.

Wow @ Everton, Birmingham and Blackburn. Quite a lot of giant killiing today I suppose.

Shoddy. Absolutely shoddy shite. What was Hughes doing playing folk out of position!? And the team selection? Jesus. Coventry deserved it.

Also, Savage gone. Good riddance you stupid long haired cunt.

holy fuck what the hell is wrong with newcastle united.

Oh football speak how scary.

looks like arry's the favourite, don't see it myself. why would anyone (big sam aside) leave a club where they were considered god incarnate for newcastle bloody united, where you're not even guaranteed to last the year. especially as arry lives in bournemouth. but, eh, you never know. mad to sack big sam so soon though.

No-one can please the Newcastle fans. It's just impossible.

They want trophies and pretty football and they want it with a set of players that have finished mid-table the last two years? Heck, if they'd stuck with Roeder they might actually be making something of themselves, but noooooooooooooo, they had to sack him, and bring in someone like Sam who obviously was going to make some big changes in terms of tactics and the style of play. Fine. But that takes time, a concept it seems that is totally alien to supporters of that club, and alas, another manager goes without even lasting a season. It wasn't like Allardyce was unproven, though, in which case this knee-jerk move might be justified; he had done the exact same thing at Bolton, from an even shittier starting position, but that took 5 years, not 5 months.

Go to hell, you cunts.

As for Harry Redknapp, he's too good for Newcastle. If he has any sense he'll stay at Portsmouth, where he is practically a deity to the fans.

Newcastle's best coach in recent seasons was Bobby Robson, they consistently overperformed under him.

oh god yes, sir bobby was great. best manager they had in recent memory at least.

Chris Coynes gone to Colchester.

One of the few things we've had going for us, and now he's gone.

AWESOME.

No-one can please the Newcastle fans. It's just impossible.

They want trophies and pretty football and they want it with a set of players that have finished mid-table the last two years? Heck, if they'd stuck with Roeder they might actually be making something of themselves, but noooooooooooooo, they had to sack him, and bring in someone like Sam who obviously was going to make some big changes in terms of tactics and the style of play. Fine. But that takes time, a concept it seems that is totally alien to supporters of that club, and alas, another manager goes without even lasting a season. It wasn't like Allardyce was unproven, though, in which case this knee-jerk move might be justified; he had done the exact same thing at Bolton, from an even shittier starting position, but that took 5 years, not 5 months.

Go to hell, you cunts.

As for Harry Redknapp, he's too good for Newcastle. If he has any sense he'll stay at Portsmouth, where he is practically a deity to the fans.

this is complete crap. i dont know a single newcastle fan like that, apart from the SSN muppets that appear on the tv dragging their knucklers along the ground. media fuelled myth and complete bullshit.

also, Martin Jol please.

i dont know a single newcastle fan like that

you mean there's more than one of you that follows newcastle over there? fantastic!

i just find the idea of paddy and murphy dressed in black and white, shouting toon whilst trying to mimic the geordie accent in a kind of broken gaelic twang absolutely precious.

hahaha

in all seriousness, yeah, there's a supporters club of about 100 here, and i know plenty of people in newcastle also.

this is complete crap. i dont know a single newcastle fan like that, apart from the SSN muppets that appear on the tv dragging their knucklers along the ground. media fuelled myth and complete bullshit.

also, Martin Jol please.

The facts suggest otherwise. The fans hounded Allardyce out because he wasn't playing pretty football. They hounded Bobby Robson out in spite of a tremendous overall league record, because he was in the relegation zone after a handful of games. They got rid of Roeder and Souness who also did not have more than a season to build anything.

I'm aware that the media exaggerates the extent of the expectation, and obviously there are some level-headed fans at Newcastle, but you can't deny the pressure to achieve is ridiculous. The next manager who comes in will face exactly the same pressures too, and God help them if they aren't either producing performances or results by the end of the season, lest they go the same way as Sam.

Spurs are the same too, Chelsea are even worse. The fact is that even the best managers go through bad spells at times. Does that mean you boot them out as soon as they do? No, but that seems to be the policy in the Premiership these days.

unless it's shearer, who is, of course, god incarnate.

unless it's shearer, who is, of course, god incarnate.

Exactly. As many pundits have commented, they won't be happy until Shearer's had his go and failed miserably.

The facts suggest otherwise. The fans hounded Allardyce out because he wasn't playing pretty football.

Myth. He was sacked because the team was playing even worse then it did under Souness or Roeder, and he had shown nothing that he was going to improve things. Not beating Derby(TWICE!) and losing to crap like Wigan and numerous awful, clueless, tacitcally inept performances got him the bullet. I didnt want him sacked as he needed til the end of the season, but I can understand why he was sacked. He played players out of position(Martins on the wing, Milner on the left, N'Zogbia at LB, Smith in DM despite a MOTM performance against Arsenal when he played up front).


They hounded Bobby Robson out in spite of a tremendous overall league record, because he was in the relegation zone after a handful of games.

We were long in decline before Bobby left, the season before the team went way backwards. Although, the way he was underminded and then sacked was a disgrace.


They got rid of Roeder and Souness who also did not have more than a season to build anything.

Souness was there for 20 months, plus he's Souness.

Roeder was never good enough to manage a premiership club, and he'd lost the dressing room.


I'm aware that the media exaggerates the extent of the expectation, and obviously there are some level-headed fans at Newcastle, but you can't deny the pressure to achieve is ridiculous. The next manager who comes in will face exactly the same pressures too, and God help them if they aren't either producing performances or results by the end of the season, lest they go the same way as Sam.

Yes, like every other club in the world. :rolleyes:

Yes, like every other club in the world. :rolleyes:

Not really?

I could give you examples of other clubs that stick by their managers even when things aren't going exactly as they'd hoped, and in all those cases they turned things around.

For example: Wigan last year-could have sacked Paul Jewell while they were in the relegation zone for a lot of the year, didn't, and he kept them up.

Birmingham, the year before last got relegated, could have sacked Steve Bruce but didn't, he got them back up.

Arsenal, finished 4th last year, falling well behind expectations with a proven manager, in much the same way Newcastle were with Allardyce. Did they sack Wenger? No, and now look where they are-top of the Premiership.

West Ham-took Curbishley a good while to get things moving, even lost 5-0 to Reading, but are now 10th in the table and could qualify for Europe this year.

Allardyce had shown prior to joining Newcastle that he could achieve great things with a very limited group of players, but even at Bolton it took time. For three to four years, they were scrapping around trying to stay up. But he gradually improved them, and got them to Europe, a huge achievement. You would think that with that sort of record he'd get more than eight months.

As for your other points, Roeder had a decent season at West Ham, and is doing well at Norwich now. Souness actually got to the semi finals of the UEFA Cup and the FA Cup, and had bad luck with injuries, though the decision to sack him was probably fair in the end. Neither were exactly terrible managers. If you look at what Souness has achieved over his managerial career you'll see he's had his fair share of success as well as failure.

Also, poor performances notwithstanding Newcastle are still only 11th in the table and there have clearly been some good performances mixed in with the bad ones. Of the 10 teams ahead of Newcastle, you have the 'big' 4, Man City, West Ham and Aston Villa who have rich owners and can afford high wages (even though Villa haven't actually spent that much), Everton, who are established as a top 6 side anyway, plus Portsmouth and Blackburn who are going through particularly good spells in their history at the moment.

Edit: double post. Also, who would you get to replace Allardyce, MV?

Birmingham, the year before last got relegated, could have sacked Steve Bruce but didn't, he got them back up.

They shouldnt have gone down in the first place.


Arsenal, finished 4th last year, falling well behind expectations with a proven manager, in much the same way Newcastle were with Allardyce. Did they sack Wenger? No, and now look where they are-top of the Premiership.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.


Allardyce had shown prior to joining Newcastle that he could achieve great things with a very limited group of players, but even at Bolton it took time. For three to four years, they were scrapping around trying to stay up. But he gradually improved them, and got them to Europe, a huge achievement.

They over-acheived. Any Bolton fan will tell you the seeds of their decline this season were sowed towards the end of the Allardyce era. Also, how many trophies has he won in his career?



As for your other points, Roeder had a decent season at West Ham

Yes, he got a side with Cole, Carrick, Defoe, Di Canio and Kanoute relegated!


and is doing well at Norwich now.

20th in the championship.


Souness actually got to the quarter finals of the UEFA Cup and the semi-finals of the FA Cup and promptly got trashed against the first decent side they met and had bad luck with injuries, because Souness brought his players back too quickly and took needless gambles though the decision to sack him was long overdue.

Fix'd


Neither were exactly terrible managers.

Yes, they were.


If you look at what Souness has achieved over his managerial career you'll see he's had his fair share of success as well as failure.

Being a major factor in the decline of the greatest club in Europe, being sacked from numerous clubs, and generally being a joke figure on football. Sucessful manegerial career indeed......

Also, Ali Dia.


Also, poor performances notwithstanding Newcastle are still only 11th in the table and there have clearly been some good performances mixed in with the bad ones. Of the 10 teams ahead of Newcastle, you have the 'big' 4, Man City, West Ham and Aston Villa who have rich owners and can afford high wages (even though Villa haven't actually spent that much), Everton, who are established as a top 6 side anyway, plus Portsmouth and Blackburn who are going through particularly good spells in their history at the moment.

We're only 9 points from safety, and we've barely put in a decent performance all season. Pretty much even the matches we've won have been throughly unconvincing.

Also, I would give Martin Jol the job. He did well at Spurs and was treated disgracefully. Gerard Houiller would be decent, and what's the harm in throwing some money at Jose? Fantasy perhaps, but you never know.

Pompey have a fairly wealthy owner. Not on the scale of Abramovich, but he's not short of a few quid.

They shouldnt have gone down in the first place.

Bruce got them up; therefore he is, technically speaking, allowed to take them down again. When he finally left them for Wigan this year, they were in a much stronger position than when he joined. That is, if nothing else, a measure of success, and proof that you don't sack a proven manager when things start going slightly wrong.


I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.

Why not? They struggled against the top teams last year, and finished over 20 points behind Manchester United. It was a poor season by their standards, even if they did win the Carling Cup. Sure, Wenger is a proven manager, but Allardyce has an excellent record too. Maybe, if you'd have given him more than half a season, he may have turned things around for you.


They over-acheived. Any Bolton fan will tell you the seeds of their decline this season were sowed towards the end of the Allardyce era. Also, how many trophies has he won in his career?

'The seeds of their decline'? When were they ever in decline? He left them needing ultimately one point from the last two games to get into Europe. There were no seeds of decline sowed, simply a less skilled manager taking over and immediately changing things for the worse.


Yes, he got a side with Cole, Carrick, Defoe, Di Canio and Kanoute relegated!

And the year before he got them to 7th in the league. That was the season I was referring to. Also, Cole and Carrick really made their names at Spurs and Chelsea, while Di Canio never played for Italy, which says a lot about how he is regarded by many. Kanout� was nothing special either.


20th in the championship.

Compared to 24th and 5 points off the 23rd placed team when he took over.


Fix'd

Wikipedia must be wrong then. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Souness) (if it is, I personally accept no responsibility)


Being a major factor in the decline of the greatest club in Europe, being sacked from numerous clubs, and generally being a joke figure on football. Sucessful manegerial career indeed......

His record at Rangers cannot be disputed, and he also did well at Blackburn, getting them to 6th the season before he left having gotten them back up just the previous year. OK you might argue a trained chimp could have gotten Blackburn up that year but getting to 6th was a good achievement. His main problem was that he kept falling out with players, but Bellamy, Robert, Lucas Neill and co are not the easiest fellas in the world to get on with.


Also, Ali Dia.

Can't argue with that, however.


We're only 9 points from safety, and we've barely put in a decent performance all season. Pretty much even the matches we've won have been throughly unconvincing.

True, but my point still stands on Allardyce, which is what the majority of this debate was supposed to be about, not Souness who I concede should have been sacked. I mean, OK, you're 9 points off safety, but you're also 9 points off a European place, correct? The season was still very much in the balance and I feel it could have gone either way.


Also, I would give Martin Jol the job. He did well at Spurs and was treated disgracefully. Gerard Houiller would be decent, and what's the harm in throwing some money at Jose? Fantasy perhaps, but you never know.

I would agree with going for Jol. Jose will wait until the Real Madrid or Barcelonas of the world come calling, I think.

I like Graeme Souness on RTE. The chemistry he and Dunphy had during the World Cup was fantastic.

Bruce got them up; therefore he is, technically speaking, allowed to take them down again. When he finally left them for Wigan this year, they were in a much stronger position than when he joined. That is, if nothing else, a measure of success, and proof that you don't sack a proven manager when things start going slightly wrong.

'Allowed to take them down again?' What?


Why not? They struggled against the top teams last year, and finished over 20 points behind Manchester United. It was a poor season by their standards, even if they did win the Carling Cup. Sure, Wenger is a proven manager, but Allardyce has an excellent record too. Maybe, if you'd have given him more than half a season, he may have turned things around for you.

Comparing Wenger to Allardyce is totally laughable. Arsene Wenger is the greatest coach in the world, hands down. He led Arsenal to a 49-0 record, two doubles, a champions league final, and has again and again turned water in wine on a much smaller budget then any of his rivals. Sam has basically over-acheieved, with bully boy long ball tactics, which have been found out.


'The seeds of their decline'? When were they ever in decline? He left them needing ultimately one point from the last two games to get into Europe. There were no seeds of decline sowed, simply a less skilled manager taking over and immediately changing things for the worse.

As opposed to challenging for the title which they did in 2002-2003. How many games did you watch in 2003-2004, there was a CLEAR decline setting in, performances had dropped, Bobby didnt seem to know how to get his players performing anymore, and they had stopped playing for him largely. Do your research before you challenege any of my points about the team I watch and support, kthx. And the deal of them needing one point from the last two is completely wrong, they needed to win both games, they didnt win either.


And the year before he got them to 7th in the league. That was the season I was referring to

Off the coatails of a succesful Redknapp reign, his first full season they went down.


Also, Cole and Carrick really made their names at Spurs and Chelsea, while Di Canio never played for Italy, which says a lot about how he is regarded by many. Kanout� was nothing special either.

Yeah, Di Canio scored countless amazing goals and is basically held in a messianic view by West Ham fans. Also, Kanoute has 54 goals in 100 games for Sevilla, but he's rubbish too. :rolleyes:


Compared to 24th and 5 points off the 23rd placed team when he took over.

So? He's not a premiership class manager, ergo, not a good manager. Good managers are ones that prove themselves at the highest level, he has not.


Wikipedia must be wrong then. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Souness) (if it is, I personally accept no responsibility)

It was the quarter finals, to Sporting Lisbon. Wikipedia is frequently wrong i've noticed.


His record at Rangers cannot be disputed

Oh yeah, winning a few cups in a shitty league after being given piles of cash. Great achievement indeed....


and he also did well at Blackburn, getting them to 6th the season before he left having gotten them back up just the previous year. OK you might argue a trained chimp could have gotten Blackburn up that year but getting to 6th was a good achievement.

Is that why Rovers fans were delighted to see him leave?


True, but my point still stands on Allardyce, which is what the majority of this debate was supposed to be about, not Souness who I concede should have been sacked. I mean, OK, you're 9 points off safety, but you're also 9 points off a European place, correct? The season was still very much in the balance and I feel it could have gone either way.

Like I already said, the performances were getting worse and we were going backwards, I believe he has been totally found out and not worthy of managing a higher tier premiership club. Also, when he said 'I don't want my future in the hands of these players' That's a great thing to say, isnt it? And a tell-tale sign he had lost the dressing room.

We're obviously not going to agree on this, since we both have completely conflicting viewpoints and neither of us is prepared to concede much. I think your analysis of my arguments by and large either ignores what I've said or puts some heavy spin on the actual facts to make it seem like they've been discredited. Either way, I really cannot be bothered going another round on each argument, so I'll keep this one concise.

One thing I would say though that there are many similarities between Wenger and Allardyce, you just don't want to admit them. For example, when discussing Wenger's record, he 'turns water into wine'. Sam 'over-achieves'. Let's be honest, the only reason you've got them that way around is because of Allardyce's style of play. Allardyce has, relative to the clubs he has managed, achieved just as much as Wenger in English football, apart from at Newcastle, obviously. I mean come on, he took a nothing, relegation-battling club to 6th, 8th and 7th in successive seasons. His tactics in achieving those positions are irrelevant-that he did achieve them is what counts.

Incidentally, this is not to say I sympathise with Allardyce. For example, I agree the comment he made about his players was disgraceful. I also find his tactics boring and monotonous. I am just arguing over his achievements which I think you underestimate.

It is not that difficult to take a mediocre side to upper mid table employing defensive tactics, which is where Bolton were finishing under Sam Allardyce. Teams often come up and finish 10th or so and then have "sEcOnD sEaSoN bLuEs" and their position is rectified to where they should be. Look at West Ham nearly being relegated last season after doing very well during their first season back up, Reading would be this season's example. However, managers like Hughes and Moyes who operate on comparable budgets to Bolton achieve similar finishes with a lot better football, Redknapp and O'Neill too, but they have decent sized budgets now. McClaren and Allardyce are always touted as being these great unsung English managers well, I suppose that after Boro McClaren was exposed somewhat, haha, but neither are particularly special and you shouldn't realistically be comparing them to Wenger, or any manager at that top tier.

They over-acheived. Any Bolton fan will tell you the seeds of their decline this season were sowed towards the end of the Allardyce era. Also, how many trophies has he won in his career?

yeah, i really don't think that was the case. allardyce has been a fine manager wherever he's gone. so what if he hasn't won a trophy. he's never been at a club that is likely to be strong enough to challenge for a trophy (though he did get them to the league cup final iirc). and when was the last time newcastle won a trophy? doesn't look like they ever will, because the core squad even before allardyce appeared on the scene was, and is, dire.

he was down at blackpool when i used to go watch them and prior to grayson in this last run, he has been the only guy who ever looked like getting us out of the bottom two divisions.

and they only gave him two seasons to turn it round, he got them to the playoff semi's and we were on the brink of automatic promotion, which was pretty good for a side who were in complete turbulence when he took over. they got rid of him, and we spent several years back in the wilderness.

and i know quite a few bolton fans, being from the north west. all of them say gartside and allardyces relationship was never the best, like mourniho and abramorich, and that was the main reason why he left so suddenly. the seeds of decline were sown when that jumped up, ruddy faced little dwarf took over and figured a team that had built sucess of route one and physical football would be better playing more attractive stuff (there you go bryan, how's about sammy lee for attractive football lol).

i think for me allardyce got the boot simply because he wasn't playing the attractive brand of football that newcastle demand. it's the same as tottenham. you can afford a few defeats here and there as long as the football is what the fans and the club want. i don't particularly agree with that, as it should be win at all cost. but whatever.

i still don't agree that you get rid of a manager with a proven track record after this short a period of time, but i guess he knew what he was getting himself into when he took newcastle on.

not suprised harry turned them down. don't know which tap-head will actually want to coach them after this farce.

=/

It is not that difficult to take a mediocre side to upper mid table employing defensive tactics, which is where Bolton were finishing under Sam Allardyce. Teams often come up and finish 10th or so and then have "sEcOnD sEaSoN bLuEs" and their position is rectified to where they should be. Look at West Ham nearly being relegated last season after doing very well during their first season back up, Reading would be this season's example. However, managers like Hughes and Moyes who operate on comparable budgets to Bolton achieve similar finishes with a lot better football, Redknapp and O'Neill too, but they have decent sized budgets now. McClaren and Allardyce are always touted as being these great unsung English managers well, I suppose since Boro McClaren was exposed somewhat, haha, but neither are particularly special and you shouldn't realistically be comparing them to Wenger, or any manager at that top tier.

But they finished in the top 8 three years in a row. That is not "sEcOnD sEaSoN bLuEs".

Also, Blackburn operate on a better budget than Bolton, I'd guess. And Mark Hughes is simply a good manager, too. Same with redknapp and O'Neill. In fact all three have been linked with major jobs in the Premiership either now or in the future. Many are, for example, tipping Hughes to take over at Man United when Fergie packs it in.

As far as I'm concerned, the style of football a team plays is totally irrelevant to a manager's reputation. Mourinho's Chelsea were often dull as dishwater, yet few argued about his ability as a manager.

Finishing 8 three seasons in a row doesn't show progress, it shows stagnation, and I didn't suggest they would suffer from a rectification, I was only making the point that it isn't as hard as people might think to get a side into the top half of the table. I don't think Allardyce is a particularly bad manager, but I don't think he is particular exceptional either, is all.

Calling that 'stagnation' is more or less the same as calling Chelsea's two titles in a row 'stagnation'. Barring an absolute miracle, that was about as far as Allardyce, or any manager, could have taken Bolton, I think.

To make the point Bolton have an average attendance of just over 20000 this year, higher than only Portsmouth and Wigan. They do not have a money man like Portsmouth, either. To suggest that long-term, it should be relatively easy to keep them battling for Europe, is just wrong.

How is it just wrong? Surely once they achieved their eighth or whatever, that gave them a foundation which should have been consolidated and built upon. Progress may have been extremely gradual but I don't think that if Bolton were always destined to decline again, not even in the long term but over a season, it says very much for the squad Allardyce assembled there. That's not actually what I think, but seems to be what you are saying. I do think Allardyce is a good manager and should have had a bit more time, don't get me wrong, but he didn't punch THAT far above his weight in terms of where he brought Bolton to in the league.

teams get stronger year-on-year, though. pompey have a much better team this season and if we finish 9th again, that's not stagnation - just lots of other teams are playing good football with good teams. if a team stagnates, it should really be falling down the table, so instead of 8th - 8th - 8th you'd get 8th - 10th - 12th or something similar.

anyway, my main point is, good old 'arry stays at a team where he won't get sacked in 6 months' time.

I don't agree with that. There's a finite amount of good players in rotation so not every team is able to improve at the same pace.

ok, hopefully that shambles yesterday will show Ashley and Mort we need a decent manager, because a hum-drum over-rated English manager certainly wont fix that mess.

that was Allardyces team yesterday btw, those who claim he's a good manager.

also, bar the top 3, the premiership is a crap league any half decent side would finish in the top half of.

lol pompey :( how upsetting

How is it just wrong? Surely once they achieved their eighth or whatever, that gave them a foundation which should have been consolidated and built upon. Progress may have been extremely gradual but I don't think that if Bolton were always destined to decline again, not even in the long term but over a season, it says very much for the squad Allardyce assembled there. That's not actually what I think, but seems to be what you are saying. I do think Allardyce is a good manager and should have had a bit more time, don't get me wrong, but he didn't punch THAT far above his weight in terms of where he brought Bolton to in the league.

Because, in spite of one good finish, Bolton were still making less than half what a lot of PL clubs were in matchday income, which contributes the lion's share of a club's turnover. Qualifying for the UEFA Cup actually gets you very little cash, the main plus with it is that it can attract better players to your club because of the prestige.

Bolton weren't 'destined' to decline, in fact I think if Allardyce were still there, they'd be looking at a top 10 finish again this year.

i am literally speechless. i dont know if im happy to see kk back, or putting my head in my hands, no clue. guess we'll just have to see what happens.

hahaha, this news is excellent

Just hope Kev doesn't walk out again, that's all I have to say but to me it's fantastic news.

Sounds very interesting. I actually like Keegan and would be happy to see him do well, but how he will cope with such a high-expectations job after 3 years out of management remains to be seen.

ok guys here's what needs to happen:

1. gillette and hicks admit they cannot cover the debt they have accumulated. they are physically removed from existence.

2. dic step in, batters parry round the face with camel spit and assume the debt. they clear the best part of �500m.

3. dic confirm the new anfield will be built to the original timeline (2010). construction begins and parry and the filthy lying yanks are buried underneath the turf, trampled on by sweaty men for all eternity.

4. dic allow mr benitez to stay on until the end of the year, before sending him off with a pack of sandwiches wrapped in a map of spain.

5. dic appoint jose and give him a �100 million war chest.

6. Oh happy day (oh happy day)
Oh happy day (oh happy day)
When Jose taught (when Jose taught)
When Jose taught (when Jose taught)
Jose taught (when Jose taught)
Taught them how to play (oh happy day)
Oh happy day (oh happy day)

ok guys here's what needs to happen:

1. gillette and hicks admit they cannot cover the debt they have accumulated. they are physically removed from existence.

2. dic step in, batters parry round the face with camel spit and assume the debt. they clear the best part of �500m.

3. dic confirm the new anfield will be built to the original timeline (2010). construction begins and parry and the filthy lying yanks are buried underneath the turf, trampled on by sweaty men for all eternity.

4. dic allow mr benitez to stay on until the end of the year, before sending him off with a pack of sandwiches wrapped in a map of spain.

5. dic appoint jose and give him a �100 million war chest.

6. Oh happy day (oh happy day)
Oh happy day (oh happy day)
When Jose taught (when Jose taught)
When Jose taught (when Jose taught)
Jose taught (when Jose taught)
Taught them how to play (oh happy day)
Oh happy day (oh happy day)


You forgot:

7. Then we all wake up and face reality.

ok, now that ive had time to think about it, and recover from the shock, basically my views on KK's return are;

i think its a good thing for Newcastle, he will lift the spirits of the fans, players and the club in general. Keegan is a world reknowned, big name personality in football and will raise the profile of the club.

the players will be able to express themselves under KK, which they werent under Fat Sam. People like Sam are a cancer on football, the win ugly method is one ive always detested. why do we watch football? TO BE ENTERTAINED! who the fuck wants to see route one, ugly football(that wasnt working)

KK has never lost a dressing room, the players will play with passion and pride and they will damn sure know what it means to play for us. KK has never taken any crap and will demand 100% passion or gtfo.

now, the negatives;

he has openly admitted to being a poor tactician. this is why chris coleman would be a very astute choice as a number 2. he is a shrwed young tactician who did very well at fulham and he would be the first step in solving the tactics and coaching deficiencies which KK lacks.

fin.

Fuck Keegan.

He's stealing Harfords thunder.

Up the hatters.

Mike r a secret Rovers fan ;)

and we've finally scored at home


fucking a

hey MOSSY

betting you don't know what it feels like to be 7th. well, we will by the end of today.

jealous?

Haha, we rattled around those positions the season Tottenham almost finished fourth D:

Everton >>>>> Spurs though

when you look through their squad, you really have to appreciate what a good job Moyes has done, he's built a quality side for really not much money.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

as much as i rate wenger, he got it wrong on tuesday. his blind faith in the young players is his one weakness as a manager in my opinion. it was obvious spurs had the edge after the first leg, and so it proved.

and lol @ at avram fucking grants 'give us respect cos we have a depleted squad' shite. yeah, all �90m of the team that was on the field last night.

prick.

I know we were hammered and all, but I really don't mind. Some of the United kidz at school were on about it yesterday but I was like "Expensively assembled team versus team that was assembled for close to free? :|" Chelsea should win it again this season, but I think that it is a good way to bleed in the new players even if they end up on the wrong side of a hiding like they're bound to every once in a while against the bigger clubs.

i doubt it does the confidence of young players any good to be on the wrong end of a 5-1 reverse.

im just saying wenger if he really wanted to win the game should have picked a strong side. and ive read many quotes from arsenal board members saying wenger has a ton of money to spend, and he hasnt spent any.

as good a side as you are, you still look short in many areas.

ps: gilberto is a lazy waste of space and should be shown the door asap.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7203724.stm

for fuck sake

i hate football

The money thing is true, definitely. Highest profit for any club in the world last year and the only any way expensive signing was Eduardo da Silva. As for stuff like player's confidence, I don't really think it exists. In the statistical sense, confidence cannot be measured and has no bearing on the probable outcomes. A team's success is based on the strength of their overall squad so problems with a few individuals that affects the mean performance would suggest a poor quality squad. I know that the majority of people would disagree, but I subscribe to Daniel Finkelstein's way of thinking and the Fink Tank is tremendously accurate, so, my faith is pretty intact.

I believe confidence does exist and can affect a player's performance. And I think if you've ever played any sport competitively at a reasonably high level, you'd agree.

Maybe 'confidence' is not so much something that exists in itself but rather an absence of self-doubt. For example, I play pool for a team and invariably do better in a match when I have been winning in practice. If I don't, I start to doubt whether I'll be good enough to win, I'll start putting needless pressure on myself and I'll miss shots. It's probably the same in any sport. When you're winning, you don't tend to think about the consequences of what you do and don't over-think it, thus you don't get caught in two minds, and end up playing your 'natural' game.

...but imagine if havant had won, though. that would be, like, the best thing ever for everyone except liverpool fans.

we won. played shockin apparently but still, hey.

I'm not denying that confidence exists, but I don't think it has a bearing is all. Derby are on 7 points at the bottom of the league , not because they're "down in confidence", but because their squad is absolutely shocking. Man Utd are top because they have the best squad, if confidence was a factor, losing to Bolton should have had an effect in the subsequent games. In the Premier League, every team is more or less performing as ranked by the Fink Tank. Liverpool and Tottenham are underperforming, Arsenal are overperforming, Man City are an anomaly because they bought so many new players that statistical analysis of their previous seasons is worthless.

Confidence surely exists, but I think that in terms of a team game, rather than individual, it doesn't impact. It is about as useful a measure as influence of God by, I dunno, how many prayers each team says.

True, confidence isn't everything, no one will argue that. In one game and over the course of a season, though, it can have a bearing. Man United losing to Bolton didn't affect them because they had won the last umpteen games prior to that, and the majority of players had sufficient confidence to understand that it was merely a fluke result and not let it affect them. Similarly, Derby getting tonked every week isn't entirely down to the ability of their squad. If it were, how do explain them being so far behind the teams that came up with them, especially Birmingham who haven't really spent that much more than them? And how do you explain results like today's huge defeat by Preston? Preston are on a half-decent run of form, that's why. Their squad is no better; they finished behind Derby last year and have not strenghtened much since, while their pitch was in good condition so cannot be blamed for their defeat, and Paul Jewell is a coach who's been there, done that and got the T-shirt, so it's hard to lay the blame there either.

Ability undoubtedly has considerable influence on where a club/person will finish come the end of a season or how they will perform over a series of games, and this is true in any sport, individual or team. This is why the 'Fink Tank' has things more or less right. That isn't down to any expertise on his part; more or less any football fan with any knowledge of the game would be able to predict a similar result. Similarly, those that know about competitive sport will know that some people thrive on confidence; it's not everyone, but in some people it can be a factor. Ask any expert of sport and they'll confirm my opinion. And I think those that have experienced sport at a high level over a long period of time themselves are in a pretty good position to comment, personally.

confidence plays a pretty big role, i'd say. if a player's not feeling confident, then they might not play as well, they'll be sloppier, make a few more mistakes and you get a bit of a feedback circle going and that could well impact on team performance. it only takes one mistake to give away a goal, after all. i mean over the course of the season it averages out but derby didn't lose 4-1 to preston because they're shit - though that's undoubtedly the case- they lost because they've been playing shit all year, know they're going down and have given up.