Uematsu vs Yoko Kanno[poll] [Archive] - Final Fantasy Shrine Forums

tangotreats

03-16-2008, 09:27 PM

I'm familiar with most of the "heavy" film and classical repertoire and have been able to pick out a myriad of Kanno's plagiarisms and inspirations from various composers, but what I haven't (yet) been able to pinpoint is simply stunning music without any indication of ripping off other people's work, or bringing in ghostwriters/orchestrators to fill out the rest. For example, she likes to quote Prokofiev a lot, but what sounds like it could be Prokofiev but isn't must be indicative of some kind of genius. I don't know of many film composers who are able to channel Copland, Ravel, Bartok, etc. as accurately and imaginatively as she can.

Plagiarism IS ripping off, my friend. The woman hasn't written a note of original music in her career. Quoting Prokofiev is something most people do. But lifting pieces of Prokofiev wholesale and inserting them into your own music is pushing a point.

How in the world does it indicate genius if she is writing music that sounds like another composer? All that indicates is that she has a CD collection and isn't afraid to raid it for ideas when her own inspiration lets her down. A true musical genius doesn't need to ape other composers because they have their own styles, techniques, and inspirations. They write their own music. Kanno takes somebody else's music (without their permission, without crediting them, and without seeing that they receive deserved royalties,) changes it around a little, and slaps her name on it. It sounds FUCKING MARVELLOUS but it's not her music.

I don't see this channelling either. She's not chanelling anything. She's stealing. As an example, you mention Ravel - I gather you're talking about Revenge from Escaflowne. This isn't channeling. She steals the orchestration, technique, harmonies, and rhythm wholesale, and inserts the Escaflowne theme in place of the Bolero theme. Once again, it sounds absolutely SUPERB but it's a simple cut and paste job that anybody can hear. (And, incidentally, the Escaflowne theme isn't original either - it's based on the traditional Dies Irae. So her "channelling" Ravel is basically stealing somebody else's theme, somebody else's orchestration, and hammering them together.

Uematsu has made music for Final Fantasy, and to be honest, some of those compositions are pretty mediocre or even annoying. Especially in the room of FF7. Although some tunes are quite catchy, Uematsu has no chance against Kanno in my oppinion.

Don't get me wrong... Uematsu has written some right shit in his time... More shit than Kanno, definitely. But it's HIS shit. ;)

Yoko Kanno has created soundtracks being unbelievable different from each other.

Um, exactly... If you steal Prokofiev today and Jerry Goldsmith tomorrow, of course they'll sound different from each other.

Any comptenent media-based composer is able to write jazz, classical music, or light pop as the situation demands.

While all Final Fantasy-Soundtracks from Uematsu have the same kind of atmosphere coming together and a lot of tracks recycled (just take the Chocobo Theme as an example)

Definitely a similar atmosphere - Uematsu's style is very evident.

I haven't seen a lot of composers offering such a variety in whole soundtracks, not only a few samples.

Indeed, it's very commendable that her tastes are so eclectic and she can provide music of such a variety of styles. However the music is not her own.

No matter how much you enjoy that music, or how suitable it is for the scenes it accompanies, can change this basic fact.

Nor can people posting "What the fuck is wrong with you?" should their opinion not tie up with mine, or indeed the correct viewpoint.

seriously. Kanno is infinetly more diverse and talented. what the fuck is wrong with you people?

Simply not true. It may sound that way to the untrained ear. Indeed, somebody who loves Kanno's music THAT MUCH will defend her to the ends of the earth.

But her talents and diversity are DEFINITELY questionable at best. What cannot be disputed in the slightest, is that she has no morals, and no respect for her fellow musicians.

Don't flame me - I respect everybody's opinion, as I expect you all to respect mine. It would also be nice for people to accept that, though they may not *like* it, or maybe not even *hear* it - Kanno *is* a thief, and displays no respect to the composers she pillages. This is not something that can be intelligently disputed or argued against. It's a simple fact based upon evidence.

(Note: Her conducting technique is pitiful - she is waving her arms roughly in time to the music and nothing more. A non musician wouldn't pick up on this, but it's clearly evidence that her abilities are lesser than we are being led to believe by the Kanno marketing machine. I'm sorry, nobody can orchestrate that well and be unable to conduct. And nobody in the history of film music has committed so many heinous acts of theft, as to suggest that she has no inspiration whatsoever. But that's an argument for another day.)

If you ask the question, "Who's music is the most diverse, ravishing, and fitting to the picture?" I would answer Kanno.

But she is NOT the better *artist* - she's no artist at all. She's a businesswoman.

Uematsu could write nothing but complete and total SHIT and still win the "better artist" credit for simply making no false pretenses regarding the source of his music. Writing your own crap is better than stealing somebody else's gold any day of the week.

Red Arremer

03-16-2008, 10:26 PM

tangotreats

03-16-2008, 10:36 PM

Oh wow. o.o

Never knew that... good to know about her true goings. That lets me look onto her work in a totally different shade. O_o
Anyhow, I still think you actually are a bit too suspicious of her - I do think she has created music on her own.

But now that I know about her true nature, I actually vote for Uematsu - although still thinking his work is in a lot of cases utterly crap. :|

Thanks :)

I *am* an endlessly suspicious person, but I know bullshit when I hear it, and I know plagiarism.

I maintain the music is still frigging fantastic as a pure listening experience - but I think it's important to acknowledge that Kanno isn't the genius Goddess her fans have her down as. Far from it.

Regardless of whether it's her alone, or am army of ten thousand musicians behind her arranging, orchestrating, producing, etc, the name Yoko Kanno is associated with a keen ear, and fine music. For that purpose, she's excellent, and in the world of Anime, completely unsurpassed.

But, an artist? No. A musician? Yes, but only because she can play the piano. A composer? Maybe - though adaptation of existing material is often considered composition, we still don't know how much of this work is being done by somebody else. An orchestrator? I sincerely doubt it.

Kanno's music is grand, glittering, technically superb, but it's spiritually empty. It's all textbook - particularly her orchestral music.

To make an analogy - a architect designs a house, and builders build it for him. With Kanno, there's no architect - one of the builders looked at other buildings he liked and mixed and matched their features, trimmed them so it was the size it needed to be, maybe put in or took out a story or two... So the final building is beautiful, solid, built well, and serves its purpose - but it's a hotch-potch of styles, ideas, and techniques that somebody else devised.

streichorchester

03-16-2008, 10:41 PM

How in the world does it indicate genius if she is writing music that sounds like another composer?
I'm glad you asked!

I'm sure in some philosophical sense, all music is derivative in some way or another, but that's probably not the answer you're looking for. The real answer is that what she does, be it arranging an original melody in the style of another composer or lampooning their various orchestrations, is actually very difficult. I know, because I've attempted it myself. It's not easy to sound like Copland or Prokofiev, and when composers like Kanno and Horner resort to ripping them off, I die a little inside. But when they don't rip off anyone yet manage to still sound like another composer, I think that's pretty amazing.

I can't be the only one who wished certain composers lived a little longer so that there'd be more amazing music out there, instead of the same pieces released over and over again. And you know what? I don't have the confidence in today's breed of composers to truly write something truly original anyway. With Poledouris and Goldsmith gone and composers like Horner handing off his old scores to a team of orchestrators telling them to go to work on Spiderwick and Legend of Zorro, and Goldenthal taking an extended leave from being his usual kickass self, film scores suck now.

Back to Kanno, it is really starting to not bother me anymore that I can pinpoint exactly where she's getting her ideas. You're right when you say it sounds marvelous, because she's somehow orchestrating at a level that far surpasses any of my professors. I can get into the technicalities about how every minute detail serves a purpose, or her use of motivic development, or how she can manage a collage of contrasting styles in a single piece without missing a beat, but I really hope you can take my word for it and relisten to some of her scores, especially Turn a Gundam and Sousei no Aquarion, and see how well it pays off to model your music on classical works. She just outclasses most Western film composers. How can you hate a composer who quotes Goldenthal's Titus (well, in a tasteful way, at least...l)

I don't see this channelling either. She's not chanelling anything. She's stealing. As an example, you mention Ravel - I gather you're talking about Revenge from Escaflowne.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8PykHgkq8-Q

(And, incidentally, the Escaflowne theme isn't original either - it's based on the traditional Dies Irae.
Nope, the gregorian-like Escaflowne theme is original. You might be thinking of the Salve Regina, which is similar. Also, you can hear similar melodies to this in Prokofiev's 6th symphony, Respighi's Ballata delle gnomidi, and Hans Zimmer's score to The Da Vinci Code of all places. But none of them quite the same, nor written for low male voices.

So her "channelling" Ravel is basically stealing somebody else's theme, somebody else's orchestration, and hammering them together.
Essentially that's correct, but consider this done with an adeptness that not many other people possess. It's actually very fascinating to listen to. See if you can find a track called Searching for the Shadow of Umbrella from the Mizu no Onna OST. It's basically the famous stacatto movement from Ravel's string quartet, but the melody is original, the harmonies, etc. It's very nice, and I have no idea how she does it. Another example is the Rain Waltz from the Nappa Tale OST. This one is like another movement to Shostakovich's Jazz Suite that Shostakovich didn't write.

Maybe "genius" isn't the best word to use in these cases, but it does take talent to do what she does. The "genius" factor comes in when I can't pinpoint if she's stealing or not, and it sounds truly original and awesome. If you want, I can quote some examples of this and you can attempt to find some act of plagiarism that I somehow missed. I know I wouldn't mind learning that why something she's written sounds so familiar.

As for Kanno's abilities/credentials/talent, I've done some research and come up empty handed in that area. I don't know if she has a degree in composition or orchestration, or if she's ever attended a music school and if so, who are her teachers? I think she claims to be self taught, and Origa was quoted in an interview saying "It all began with my debut album which was released in Tokyo in 1994. Kanno, then a beginner piano player, played all piano parts on it," which seems to contradict the idea her first concert work The Creation was orchestrated and performed in 1991. I can't imagine what kind of strings she was pulling behind the scenes for that one, so it remains unclear exactly what kind of musical upbringing she has.

As for Kanno's conducting abilities, I watched the Korean documentary on the Turn a Gundam concert and while she doesn't appear to be that graceful as a conductor, she does know how to conduct. She can keep time, and cues just fine. I don't believe she rehearsed with the orchestra entirely herself, but she held her own during the concert so that's to be commended. I've also seen videos of her rehearsing with the Warsaw Philharmonic, which to me was surprising, so unless it's staged propaganda to continue the "myth" of Kanno, I don't think we can write off her conducting ability as being some sort of telltale sign of her shortcomings.

tangotreats

03-17-2008, 12:40 AM

Thank you so much for your post... I can't tell you how nice it is to see a real, intelligent discussion emerging about this - and I'll definitely address all of your (excellent) points tomorrow when I'm less sleepy. ;)

(By the way, I'm a composer and orchestrator - as well as self-appointed classical music, film music, and anime music geek. I'm currently breaking into the film scoring arena and am recording a 70 minute symphonic album with a 60 piece orchestra in Brno next year. I'm not trying to say "I'm a genius, shut up you morons" - I'm just mentioning this so you know what standpoint I'm coming from and what experience and mindset I have.) :)

VERY briefly, however...:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8PykHgkq8-Q

Yes, the Bolero rythym. But making an appearance as one small facet of an otherwise entirely original (and completely representative of its composer's style) piece of music.

The real answer is that what she does, be it arranging an original melody in the style of another composer or lampooning their various orchestrations, is actually very difficult. I know, because I've attempted it myself. It's not easy to sound like Copland or Prokofiev, and when composers like Kanno and Horner resort to ripping them off, I die a little inside.

I agree with that. Trying to evoke the general sound of another composer without outright stealing from him is *very* hard and requires incredible skill.

My contentious point was that when Kanno sounds like Prokofiev or Copland or Ravel, it's because she's copied and pasted out large sections from their existing scores.

James Horner is another case in point - a thief, and a liar. And if I hear the four note danger motif one more time I think I may kill somebody.

However, one has to question *why* it is strictly important for a composer to be able to emulate somebody else's style. A true artist has their own style and their own musical signature.

Jerry Goldsmith could adopt a thousand different techniques, but the *style* that ran through each and every one of them was entirely consistent.

Kanno's music feels to me like there are five hundred completely individual personalities living inside her. Add to that the (definite and unassailable) fact that it is impossible to listen to a piece of her music without your head filling with twenty five other compositions from whence they were devised - and I start to suspect and worse. The techniques she uses are all so firmly rooted in the classical tradition, you have to assume somebody with a solid classical background is doing this stuff. It's all well-arranged fluff, but there's no individuality.

How can you hate a composer who quotes Goldenthal's Titus (well, in a tasteful way, at least...l)

Let's not talk about Tyler Bates then. ;)

Nope, the gregorian-like Escaflowne theme is original.

I disagree, although I was indeed wrong in saying it was the Dies Irae - I'm not drunk, honest... I am, however, an idiot. The piece I was thinking was indeed the Salve Regina. The first four notes are identical to those of the Escaflowne theme, but the rest is different. I can't place where the rest of it comes from, but I *have* heard it before. I'm fairly well convinced that this goes beyond the simple fact that Gregorian chant, by its nature and construction, has a distinct sound.

Essentially that's correct, but consider this done with an adeptness that not many other people possess.

I agree, it's very skillfull, but all it is is a textbook example of thematic integration and orchestration technique. Though that sort of thing almost *never* happens in music these days, for which we should be grateful, to me it's just another suspicious coincidence that we don't hear Yoko Kanno the composer - we hear a manipulator - a skilled manipulator at that, but the musical strength comes from form and arrangement. The original material is not original, and for that matter neither is the arrangement. It sounds magnificent, but haven't we heard it all before?

Maybe "genius" isn't the best word to use in these cases, but it does take talent to do what she does. The "genius" factor comes in when I can't pinpoint if she's stealing or not, and it sounds truly original and awesome. If you want, I can quote some examples of this and you can attempt to find some act of plagiarism that I somehow missed. I know I wouldn't mind learning that why something she's written sounds so familiar.

I don't doubt that there's talent around... I'm convinced that it doesn't belong to Kanno.

Why does she insist on basing *everything* upon something else? If she's the RIDICULOUSLY TALENTED orchestrator and form-handler she appears to be, why is she unable to pen an original melody or write in a style that hasn't clearly been derived from somebody else? It doesn't add up. Somebody (not necessarily Kanno, but I digress) is *brilliant* - so why the constant, shameless thievery?

I'll definitely toss around some more examples - from Escaflowne, since it's on my mind right now...

Dance Of Curse is clearly derived from O Fortuna.

The opening bars of Epistle are pure Janacek (check out the Glagolitic Mass) - and the rest of it is a barely-altered rendition of Goldsmith's The Omen. As the piece develops, the orchestration grows ever more florid, but it's still The Omen.

Illusion has Bernard Herrmann written all over it - particularly Scene D'Amour from Vertigo.

..........Aquarion

The three note "Aquarion" theme comes from somewhere. I'll remember where tomorrow.

High Spirit derived from Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries.

Sacred Aquarion's opening contains a nice example of what I think is Kanno's only recognisable signature - the descending dissonant horn chords crop up all over her work and I don't recognise them from elsewhere.

Shinwatekigikou Sonata is a gigantic Liszt pastiche - listen to the piano part. 90% of it is upward arpeggios. The orchestration makes more reference to Ride of the Valkyries. The melody is a totally interchangeable minor key late romantic piano concerto affair. Elliot Goldenthal turns up in the final 90 seconds as well, with the rapid descending piano triplets.

BLAQARION - More from Jerry Goldsmith's The Omen. 3:04 to 3:11 (the frantic orchestral flourish) is lifted from David Newman's The Brave Little Toaster, of all things.

Thoma's Oracle is a lovely reprise of all major themes, but then is distracted by Jerry Goldsmith's Total Recall.

Brain Powerd:

Prism's theme is identical to Alan Silvestri's Pseudopod cue from The Abyss. It develops far, far further than Silvestri's did, but it's still all clearly derived from that melody.

I'm tired... There's more but I'm too sleepy.

Point to all this is, a WILD variety of sources and inspirations, but no sense of individuality, except for a some odd sounding brass work that is only distinctive because it's out of key with the rest of the music!

As for Kanno's abilities/credentials/talent, I've done some research and come up empty handed in that area. I don't know if she has a degree in composition or orchestration, or if she's ever attended a music school and if so, who are her teachers? I think she claims to be self taught, and Origa was quoted in an interview saying "It all began with my debut album which was released in Tokyo in 1994. Kanno, then a beginner piano player, played all piano parts on it," which seems to contradict the idea her first concert work The Creation was orchestrated and performed in 1991. I can't imagine what kind of strings she was pulling behind the scenes for that one, so it remains unclear exactly what kind of musical upbringing she has.

Indeed - data is patchy and contradictory at best. Isn't that a little strange for somebody of such a high profile? Education means nothing compared to ability, but the complete vagueness and almost deliberate lack of detail smells fishy to me. The Creation is a magnificent piece of work - do we really believe that a self taught musician composed and orchestrated THAT as her debut working with a symphony orchestra?

As for Kanno's conducting abilities, I watched the Korean documentary on the Turn a Gundam concert and while she doesn't appear to be that graceful as a conductor, she does know how to conduct. She can keep time, and cues just fine.

She conducts like somebody who read a book on conducting technique. It's sufficient - she holds it together; just...

I don't believe she rehearsed with the orchestra entirely herself, but she held her own during the concert so that's to be commended.

Why on earth would she not rehearse the orchestra at her own concert, unless she was *incapable* or didn't understand what she had to do?

This suggests that somebody competent rehearsed the orchestra, ironed out performance deficiencies, etc - and Kanno went out on the podium for the performance and waved her arms. Not all composers can conduct - nor should they be able to - but in this instance it's yet another gigantic flashing red light that says "Attention! Kanno is the product of a marketing department!"

I've also seen videos of her rehearsing with the Warsaw Philharmonic, which to me was surprising, so unless it's staged propaganda to continue the "myth" of Kanno...

I don't know *how* this would work... Kanno's poor English is notorious, and you definitely need to have a very good command of the language if you're communicating musical nuances to a symphony orchestra. Add to this the orchestra's first language being Polish and, well, you get the idea.

Almost all of Kanno's Warsaw recordings were conducted by Anthony Inglis, or by a local or contracted conductor. The orchestra demands competent, able conductors to lead sessions because time is always of the essence, and they just can't afford to have somebody farting around on the podium not knowing what they're doing, whilst recording time is ticking past. (It's for that exact reason that for my own first recording in Brno next year, I am hiring a Czech conductor so it goes quickly. My conducting experience is limited and my Czech language skills completely nil - my strength is composing and orchestrating and I'll concentrate there.)

This smacks of, "Let's get Kanno conducting the orchestra for a publicity shot or a short rehearsal video, then get her off the stage so we can record the music properly."

I don't think we can write off her conducting ability as being some sort of telltale sign of her shortcomings.

Oh, absolutely, it shouldn't be used against a composer if s/he cannot conduct proficiently, but in this context, what does it tell you?

There is NO ROOM in true music for distortion of truth, lies, deception, or lack of morals. The Yoko Kanno story - regardless of the undoubted technical brilliance of her music - is littered with examples of all these sins and more - for that reason I can't bring myself to purely *enjoy* the works of Kanno - not even from a pure perspective of listening to grand music - because I object to the severely questionable practices going on behind the scenes.

streichorchester

03-17-2008, 02:13 AM

:D:D:D

I can tell this is going to be fun. It's not often I find someone with the same interests as me, and I studied composition and orchestration with three professors at Queen's these last four years.

(By the way, I'm a composer and orchestrator - as well as self-appointed classical music, film music, and anime music geek. I'm currently breaking into the film scoring arena and am recording a 70 minute symphonic album with a 60 piece orchestra in Brno next year. I'm not trying to say "I'm a genius, shut up you morons" - I'm just mentioning this so you know what standpoint I'm coming from and what experience and mindset I have.) :)
Nice! I've had a few orchestral and chamber performances, but nothing spectacular or by an orchestra of any caliber whatsoever, but it's nice to hear something I've written not rendered in Gigastudio once in a while. If you're indeed an orchestrator, you have my respect (even more than if you just said you were a composer!)

My contentious point was that when Kanno sounds like Prokofiev or Copland or Ravel, it's because she's copied and pasted out large sections from their existing scores.
Yep, to a degree there is some copying and pasting going on. I wonder if she's actively reading the scores, or in the case of quoting Titus, Kanno just might be one of the best transcribers I've ever heard.

James Horner is another case in point - a thief, and a liar. And if I hear the four note danger motif one more time I think I may kill somebody.
Again, to a degree Horner is the worst kind of person. But I can't hate the guy who wrote Krull, even if there are some brief BRIEF moments of Ligeti, Wagner, Holst, and whatever.

Jerry Goldsmith could adopt a thousand different techniques, but the *style* that ran through each and every one of them was entirely consistent.
I often piss off a lot of Goldsmith fans when I point out that Goldsmith is also guilty of repetition or plagiarism (which is often due to temp tracking like in Total Recall) but it's true, and I can't take people too seriously when they cite him as a model of originality. Yes, he has moments of sheer brilliance, but also long periods of dullness that can be attributed to a seemingly endless career scoring terrible films.

Speaking of film composer plagiarism, have you heard Walton's The Quest? I heard it for the first time last year (downloaded from emusic) any my respect for Joel McNeely went south immediately. I wonder how come no one seems to have brought it up before.

Kanno's music feels to me like there are five hundred completely individual personalities living inside her. Add to that the (definite and unassailable) fact that it is impossible to listen to a piece of her music without your head filling with twenty five other compositions from whence they were devised - and I start to suspect and worse.
This is the part of Kanno's work I like most. Juxtaposing one idea against another, sometimes to the point of confusion, just comes across as very interesting music to be. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the occasional Bruckner symphony every now and then, but as a composer raised on the classics, Kanno's work speaks to me on a different level. It's almost saying "don't worry about developing your own style, just take what you like and run with it." Of course I wouldn't dare plagiarize anyone, but I'm not about to start composing aimlessly hoping a new melodic and harmonic voice will emerge that is both original and pleasing to the ear. Because it might never emerge, and I don't want take that chance.

The techniques she uses are all so firmly rooted in the classical tradition, you have to assume somebody with a solid classical background is doing this stuff. It's all well-arranged fluff, but there's no individuality.
I played the "ghostwriter" card elsewhere and got yelled at. There is absolutely no evidence that Kanno is getting help because an orchestrator/arranger/copyist is never mentioned in her CD liner notes or concert programs. Theoretically, with all her quotes of American film scores, you'd think her orchestrator(s) would be of Western origin and someone in the film music business would be able to point him/her out. Alternatively, I haven't heard anything over here that sounds anything like Kanno's work with the Warsaw Philharmonic, so I doubt whoever might be ghostwriting is doing his/her own thing either.

Let's not talk about Tyler Bates then. ;)
Yeah, what a goddamn tragedy that was. That film was itching for something like Titus, but instead of something original, we got Titus. They could have at least given Goldenthal the credit and the subsequent fanbase. Anyway, Kanno's use of Victorius Titus in Aquarion is a bit more forgiving.

but I *have* heard it before. I'm fairly well convinced that this goes beyond the simple fact that Gregorian chant, by its nature and construction, has a distinct sound.
I thought I heard it before too, but I asked around about what Prokofiev might have been quoting in his 6th symphony and no one had a clue. Kanno might have borrowed it from the symphony, and that's as far as I can figure.

I agree, it's very skillfull, but all it is is a textbook example of thematic integration and orchestration technique. Though that sort of thing almost *never* happens in music these days, for which we should be grateful, to me it's just another suspicious coincidence that we don't hear Yoko Kanno the composer - we hear a manipulator - a skilled manipulator at that, but the musical strength comes from form and arrangement. The original material is not original, and for that matter neither is the arrangement. It sounds magnificent, but haven't we heard it all before?
In a sense, I guess I prefer something that sounds familiar, to a degree. As I said, it's a shame many composers didn't live longer, so when someone spoofs their style and adds a touch of originality, it's very interesting to hear. I wouldn't go as far to call it textbook, though, because there are still outstanding cues that require a full understanding of classical/romantic tonality and harmony, theme and development, progression, motivic intricacies, and other such nuances that are just lost on many composers today. It's very difficult to describe, but as I see it Kanno is throwing just the right colors at an orchestra and is getting amazing results. Take Dance of Curse, for example. Obviously inspired by Orff's Carmina Burana, but where did that amazing violin ostinato come from? Or the harmonic progression that drives the dance in the midsection? To me none of these things are textbook, and I just can't explain them.

Why does she insist on basing *everything* upon something else? If she's the RIDICULOUSLY TALENTED orchestrator and form-handler she appears to be, why is she unable to pen an original melody or write in a style that hasn't clearly been derived from somebody else? It doesn't add up. Somebody (not necessarily Kanno, but I digress) is *brilliant* - so why the constant, shameless thievery?
You're right, it is a mystery that I'm surprised no one has tackled yet. Even Japanese sites are just now becoming aware of her "Westernized" sound. Her online fanbase is simply content with calling her a genius and moving on, but when you dwell on her orchestral output, you begin to see the plagiarisms, inspirations, models, and some unexplainable phenomenae.

The way I see it is Kanno is not a victim of temp tracking, but something similar in her own mind. I think as a fellow composer I can understand the amazement and subsequent jealousy that can consume you when you hear something you like from someone else. She is modeling her music based on what she likes and actively choosing to quote directly at times. It's too easy to call people like Kanno and Horner con artists without understanding what it going through their minds, but I think a large part of it revolves around the idea that "I can do that too!"

Dance Of Curse is clearly derived from O Fortuna.
Yep, but not just O Fortuna. For a split second she quotes the orchestra-only Tanz. The rest is original to my ears.

The opening bars of Epistle are pure Janacek (check out the Glagolitic Mass) - and the rest of it is a barely-altered rendition of Goldsmith's The Omen. As the piece develops, the orchestration grows ever more florid, but it's still The Omen.
I didn't know about the Glagolitic Mass, but the Omen thing was pretty interesting to hear. Also, what are they singing? It sounds like "cum sancto spiritu choris" and "miserere nobis" but with added syllables.

Illusion has Bernard Herrmann written all over it - particularly Scene D'Amour from Vertigo.
I heard this one too! But I think another huge part of it comes from Poulenc's Concerto for Two Pianos. I posed an example of it late in this thread http://www.monkey-pirate.com/ykdb/index.php?topic=8.0

..........Aquarion
Aquarion plagues me with familiarities. I've caught the Wolfgang-Korngold Violin Concerto, Goldenthal, Prokofiev's Scythian Suite, and the biggest surprise for me was hearing Vaughan Williams's Masque for Dancing which I also posted an example of at the ykdb forums.

BLAQARION - More from Jerry Goldsmith's The Omen. 3:04 to 3:11 (the frantic orchestral flourish) is lifted from David Newman's The Brave Little Toaster, of all things.
Not to mention the first 30 seconds of the track is directly from Titus! But holy shit, seriously, Brave Little Toaster? I think you're right on that one, but I'll have to double check to find the track it's from. I don't agree about the Omen similarity, though, because I just don't hear it. But as for Toaster, that's amazing I didn't catch that one. It explains a few other quotes, like 2:06 in Vector Return.

Thoma's Oracle is a lovely reprise of all major themes, but then is distracted by Jerry Goldsmith's Total Recall.
I thought 2:33 sounded like Goldsmith, but I couldn't find that exact rhythm. I think Total Recall was also the source for the "claps" in the Chain track from Escaflowne (for lovers only) but I'll be damned if that isn't an amazing, original track. But in all this talk about originality, let's not forget where the opening track from Total Recall came from!

I'm tired... There's more but I'm too sleepy.
Take your time. :D I'd like to hear everything you've found.

Indeed - data is patchy and contradictory at best. Isn't that a little strange for somebody of such a high profile? Education means nothing compared to ability, but the complete vagueness and almost deliberate lack of detail smells fishy to me. The Creation is a magnificent piece of work - do we really believe that a self taught musician composed and orchestrated THAT as her debut working with a symphony orchestra?
I agree, it is very strange. There is missing information. Heck, most of her fans are still trying to figure out that Kanno sings in her tracks under a pseudonym "Gabriella Robin" for no other reason than for her own amusement. And the way this parallels the Myung/Sharon Apple character in Macross Pluss is brilliant. In Kanno's videos she comes across as a "free spirit", speaking in a high pitched voice, giggling like a Japanese stereotype. It's like interviewing Britney Spears.
"Where do you get your ideas?"
"They just come to me, sometimes in a dream, haha..."
It's as if she or her people are actively trying to create/maintain this "child-like artistic genius" persona for sheer celebritism and suppressing everything about her past relating to music that seems realistic for someone with her resume.

Why on earth would she not rehearse the orchestra at her own concert, unless she was *incapable* or didn't understand what she had to do? This suggests that somebody competent rehearsed the orchestra, ironed out performance deficiencies, etc - and Kanno went out on the podium for the performance and waved her arms. Not all composers can conduct - nor should they be able to - but in this instance it's yet another gigantic flashing red light that says "Attention! Kanno is the product of a marketing department!"
I'm mainly basing her conducting ability on what I've seen in the Turn a Gundam documentary thing on youtube. It looks like she rehearses some, but not a whole lot. So yes, if this is true, she might in fact be the product of some marketing department as you say. No way too tell for sure, at the moment.

I don't know *how* this would work... Kanno's poor English is notorious, and you definitely need to have a very good command of the language if you're communicating musical nuances to a symphony orchestra. Add to this the orchestra's first language being Polish and, well, you get the idea.
Yep, I was amazed to see it too. You can read about my amazement in my posts at animeremix.org where I also link to the youtube vids.
http://www.animeremix.org/animix_forums/viewtopic.php?id=1976

Almost all of Kanno's Warsaw recordings were conducted by Anthony Inglis, or by a local or contracted conductor. The orchestra demands competent, able conductors to lead sessions because time is always of the essence, and they just can't afford to have somebody farting around on the podium not knowing what they're doing, whilst recording time is ticking past.

This smacks of, "Let's get Kanno conducting the orchestra for a publicity shot or a short rehearsal video, then get her off the stage so we can record the music properly."
Yes, it is entirely possible those shots of her rehearsing with them was just to propagate and sustain this "Kanno" myth. I think it's about time we found out for sure, but if it were true, then there would be forces working against us.

Oh, absolutely, it shouldn't be used against a composer if s/he cannot conduct proficiently, but in this context, what does it tell you?

There is NO ROOM in true music for distortion of truth, lies, deception, or lack of morals. The Yoko Kanno story - regardless of the undoubted technical brilliance of her music - is littered with examples of all these sins and more - for that reason I can't bring myself to purely *enjoy* the works of Kanno - not even from a pure perspective of listening to grand music - because I object to the severely questionable practices going on behind the scenes.
If that's the case, then I think you're missing out. I muddled my way through naxos.com attempting to find some new symphonists that I could relate to, but it just isn't happening. It seems every week they're releasing the complete orchestral works of some obscure composer that stands no chance of entering the repertoire of any major orchestra. I don't think a lot of these guys were any more original than Kanno. Sure, they lived through WW2, orchestrated by pencil and paper, inserted nationalistic elements, taught at a university level, and overall display great command of a full orchestra, but they don't hold a candle to the masters. I can't tell if it's a result of shitty orchestral performances, but again, as I see it, a lot of these guys were just outclassed by film composers of the time, and today a lot of film composers are being outclassed by Yoko Kanno.

piero.ken

03-17-2008, 03:05 AM

I can't vote . . . . . . NVM KANNO!

streichorchester

03-17-2008, 03:26 AM

I'm such an idiot, how could I have missed that Glagolithic Mass reference?? There it is right there at the beginning of the Credo. It seems I've been underestimating Janacek all these years thanks to my dislike of the Sinfonietta. Damn...

Now I'm wondering if it's the same source Horner got one of his choral motifs from in Willow, because the other one is definitely Bartok's Cantata Profana.

Z3120

03-26-2008, 01:57 AM

A big thank you to dannyfrench and streichorchester. I remember hearing a debate concerning Yoko Kanno's authenticity (originality, whatever you want to call it) months or a year ago but saw the discussion didn't go so far as it only lasted a few pages. Nice to see a bit more insight into the controversy.

advent_child1

03-26-2008, 03:31 PM

nabou uematsu - final fantasy, Motoi sakuraba - valkyrie profile silmeria, Xenosaga - yasunori mitsuda, kingdom hearts - yoko shimomura and various anime alnums

jedinewtype

04-27-2008, 01:49 AM

Wow, how did this escape my radar...you know my answer... (Thread 44707)

If I were to give an analogy: John Williams vs. James Horner, lol

Shumagaki

04-27-2008, 02:43 AM

Can someone list the best tracks from Yoko Kanno? I've never heard of the person before. I tried the couple tracks mentioned previously but didn't think they were anything special.

jedinewtype

04-27-2008, 05:34 AM

Can someone list the best tracks from Yoko Kanno? I've never heard of the person before. I tried the couple tracks mentioned previously but didn't think they were anything special.

I recommend:

YK
Jazz
-Cowboy Bebop
-Darker than Black

Orchestra
-Escaflowne
-Turn A Gundam

Orchestra/Electronic
-Ghost In The Shell - Stand Alone Complex
-Sousei No Aquarion
-Wolf's Rain

Orchestra/Pop
-Macross Plus

"Kiddie"
-Napple Tale

Maaya
-Easy Listening
-Hemisphere (Single)
-Tune The Rainbow (Single)

Origa: Unlike Maaya music whick YK composes (most of the time), Origa has her own Pop sound.

All this stuff is located on my post (Thread 44707), or you can get it from BT

Shumagaki

04-27-2008, 06:55 AM

thanks.. i'm guessing those you listed are OSTs and not individual songs? I put those into youtube and listened to the first hit that came up. I liked this song http://youtube.com/watch?v=f9uX6nt4g78 quite a bit among them. Cool video too..

Kontrafagott

05-17-2008, 07:03 PM

Oh great. This seems to be a quite interesting discussion.

Yea! Yoko Kanno! It’s kind of funny but I always used to call her “Japans answer on James Horner”. But I guess that’s not the case.
Actually, stealing from western composers seems to be quite commend in Japan. Look at the music of Amano ore Sugiyama. But the difference is, that both are not taking the whole piece, they’re just taking the idea, ore the basic structure of the a music and develop it into there own musical language. Combining it with other techniques ore bringing them into a different setting. You still recognize: This is from H�ndel, this is from Prokofjew, this is from Horner (Yes! Listen to Amanos Battle Royale II Music. Just in the opening track of the album there is a nice variation of “Hard to starboard” from Titanic. And: Its better than the original) but it has something for it’s own.

And here is the differences to Yoko Kanno. It always seems to me, that, whenever she has to score a scene, she thinks about what piece of classical music might fit here an takes the whole peace as it is. As Danny French said: Copy an paste. Without developing it, without turning it into a different direction, even without playing with it. It’s like: I can’t write good music for my own, so I have to take it from somebody who can!
Of course, as a composer, your never free from influences even if you compose a-tonal, your still influenced by Bach, Beethoven, Schubert and so on. But I think that’s something completely different. She just eclectic. In every negative sense of the word.

PS: I hope there are not too many mistakes in my post. I don’t used to write a lot of English

streichorchester

05-17-2008, 08:04 PM

(Yes! Listen to Amanos Battle Royale II Music. Just in the opening track of the album there is a nice variation of �Hard to starboard� from Titanic. And: Its better than the original) but it has something for it�s own.

Yeah, I thought it sounded like Horner, but wasn't sure which score. Also, Poledouris's Starship Troopers shows up in track 5.

What's interesting, though, is that The Sinking track from later in the score is based on Newton Howard's Waterworld score (Deacon's Speech.) And even Jerry Goldsmith borrowed a line from Hard to Starboard in his Star Trek Insurrection score. I think these cases all represent how much of an influence temp-tracking is. It happens quite a bit in Japan, albeit a lot more noticeably since, well, their composers don't seem compelled to change it up a lot.

For example, in the episodes of Macross Frontier that have been released so far, you can find:

Sibelius's Finlandia
Debussy's Nuages
Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
Williams's Star Wars (the rebel theme)
and the most obvious one: Zimmer's Pirates of the Caribbean makes an unprecedented appearance

Kontrafagott

05-17-2008, 08:28 PM

I think a positive example is Toru Takemitsus Ran Score, where he uses Mahlers �Lied von der Erde�. Even if he had a different concept for the music in his mind I think it works great in the film and stands in an interesting contrast to the traditional Japanese music takemitsu composed for the rest of the film.

NaotaM

05-18-2008, 02:14 AM

LOL This was open and shut before it started. Yoko Kanno, no question. If only the poll was still open. There isn't a single piece she's written that I haven't loved, while on the other hand, I can't remember a single track by Uematsu. I really never got the big deal.

And yes, I'm aware of all the controversy behing how YK works, I've done plenty of research, and often prefer her work to those she supposedly steals from, and using slightly similar melodies and notes is hardly plagiarism. Ice Ice Baby was plagiarism. That K Fed rap was plagiarism(of Blinded with Science, among others). Using the same song, note for note, is plagiarism. Yoko Kanno isn't. Sorry, but I'll need facts before you convince me that she's an unartistic theif. I proudly call the woman a genius.

Her work does immediately fill my head with several different genres, not individual pieces. Call me an idiot, but I like that distiction, diversity, blend and mixes of established types of sound, and how she can always instill each piece with...I dunno. I can just always recognise one of her songs, even if I didn't know who composed it at first. When watching Magnetic Rose for the first time, I just knew. Same with the flowing theme from M Frontier's first episode.

Well, I'm rambling, and Yoko's already won, so....

tangotreats

05-18-2008, 11:01 PM

Just a quick one to say, I'm still here! ...And going to contribute more to this discussion. ;)

But had to throw in this one before I go to bed:

Haha, this was a done deal before it started. Yoko Kanno wins - no question. If only the poll hadn't closed. There isn't a single piece she's written that I haven't enjoyed, while on the other hand, I don't recall a single track by Uematsu. What's the big deal?

Yes, I'm aware of all the controversy behind the way Kanno works - I've done plenty of research, and often prefer her music to the pieces she supposedly steals from. Using similar melodies and notes is hardly plagiarism. Ice Ice Baby was. The "K Fed rap" was plagiarism (based on Blinded with Science, among others). Using the same piece, note for note, is plagiarism. Yoko Kanno isn't guilty of this. Sorry, but I require facts before you convince me that she's an talentless thief. I proudly call the her a genius.

Oooh, deary me - did I just plagiarise most of your previous post? No sir, not me - I wrote all that myself!

I took something you wrote, phrased parts slightly differently, corrected a few spelling mistakes, changed the grammar around a bit --- but it's quite clearly still what you wrote. Some may argue that I took your original material and made it better, and since I didn't copy you *exactly* and because I improved upon the material, I am a genius for doing so... Not a sarcastic thieving scumbag who just made his point most excellently. ;)

> I've done plenty of research, and often prefer her work to those she supposedly steals from, and using slightly similar melodies and notes is hardly plagiarism.

Of course it is! Whether she makes the music better or not (debatable - personal preference; not something one can prove or disprove) is not the issue.

If I made a film where a team of scientists got stranded on an island populated by... wooly mammoths, which had been brought back to life through cloning techniques using DNA strands found in... rocks - and the island was owned by an eccentric... German guy with a... white moustache, etc, etc... Would you not accuse me of plagiarism?

> Using the same song, note for note, is plagiarism.

That's one of the definitions of plagiarism, yes.

> Yoko Kanno isn't. Sorry, but I'll need facts before you convince me that she's an unartistic theif.

Yes, she is. Regardless of how forthright you are in asserting the contrary. This is NOT open for debate.

What more facts do you need than the fact that almost every single composition attributed to Kanno has its basis in another piece of music by somebody else?

Plagiarism isn't just about straightforward copying, although Kanno is guilty of this too.

PLAGIARISM: Plagiarism is the practice of claiming or implying original authorship of (or incorporating material from) someone else's written or creative work, in whole or in part, into one's own without adequate acknowledgement. (Thank you, Wikipedia.)

streichorchester

05-20-2008, 12:34 AM

NaotaM

05-20-2008, 03:59 AM

Oooh, deary me - did I just plagiarise most of your previous post? No sir, not me - I wrote all that myself!

I took something you wrote, phrased parts slightly differently, corrected a few spelling mistakes, changed the grammar around a bit --- but it's quite clearly still what you wrote. Some may argue that I took your original material and made it better, and since I didn't copy you *exactly* and because I improved upon the material, I am a genius for doing so... Not a sarcastic thieving scumbag who just made his point most excellently. ;)

More like a glib theiving scumbag who made plenty spelling mistakes of his own. :/

I'll grant a few songs sound very similar to others(still a small percent, considering the womans' track history is in the thousands), but they all have their subtle differences, and are far from mixes put together to avoid copyright infringement. Most of the examples you've previously cited are only barely similar. Oooh, these instruments are being used here, their played almost like in that other song. I call shenanigans! lol

Of course it is! Whether she makes the music better or not (debatable - personal preference; not something one can prove or disprove) is not the issue.

No, it isn't. Using the exact same notes and sound samples is plagiarism, writing a song that kinda reminds you of Flight of the Valkeries isn't. You wan't plagiarism? See the Verve's Bittersweet Symphony, where they used an exact rip from a Rolling Stones piece and were more or less sued out of existence.

All of the artists whose work was allegedly ripped off by Kanno who were informed reacted very well, acknowledging it as different and if the actual artists don't have any snobby artistic hangups, I sure as hell don't care about yours.

Yes, she is. Regardless of how forthright you are in asserting the contrary. This is NOT open for debate.

No, she isn't. Regardless of how forthright you are to the contrary. And apperantly it is up for debate, seeing how we both choose to debate it. Or is it irrefutable fact becaue my opinion doesn't happen to jive with yours and most likely won't change? Oh well, I won't reply again, so no matter.

What more facts do you need than the fact that almost every single composition attributed to Kanno has its basis in another piece of music by somebody else?

Prove it so that it's actually fact, bub. For every single piece she's written. Maybe then I'll humor you. ;P

streichorchester

05-20-2008, 07:20 AM

All of the artists whose work was allegedly ripped off by Kanno who were informed reacted very well, acknowledging it as different and if the actual artists don't have any snobby artistic hangups, I sure as hell don't care about yours.

If Kanno was making millions I'm sure they'd be more inclined to want a piece of that pie.

But yeah, name a piece (preferably orchestral) and I'll tell you what Kanno based it on and if it would be considered plagiarism or not. Some are.

tangotreats

05-20-2008, 06:48 PM

More like a glib theiving scumbag who made plenty spelling mistakes of his own. :/

More like, I only corrected a handful of your howlers in your barely coherent sentence to avoid causing offense, and because it didn't make any difference. IN your reply, you have moved to attack mode, whereas my reply was clearly tongue in cheek and intended as a friendly critique.

Kindly list my language faux-pas and tell me what relevance they have to this discussion, aside from the fact that by talking about them, you are diverting attention away from your failing argument?

I'll grant a few songs sound very similar to others(still a small percent, considering the womans' track history is in the thousands), but they all have their subtle differences, and are far from mixes put together to avoid copyright infringement.

You really don't have to grant or withhold your agreement here. Nobody is asking for your agreement or understanding.

Most of the examples you've previously cited are only barely similar.

Everybody has a different idea of "barely similar" - as far as I'm concerned, if there is SUFFICIENT similarity for a positive comparison to be made, then that is too much. You really don't have to be a musicologist to appreciate this, though I suspect that your obvious lack of classical music experience, and lack of encyclopedia-level knowledge of Western film music, leads you to draw incorrect conclusions.

I call shenanigans!

I call nonsense.

No, it isn't.

I repeat - yes, IT IS. That you don't believe this to be true is not relevant, because it doesn't change the facts. Please stop confusing your own personal (incorrect) viewpoint with established fact. They are clearly not the same thing. [Note - of course, I respect your right to your viewpoint - as you must respect the fact that what you are saying could be wrong, and furthermore that you do not automatically assume anybody ELSE is wrong purely because they don't agree with you.

writing a song that kinda reminds you of Flight of the Valkeries isn't.

Yes, it is. I am sick of arguing this point. You are not correct. It is perfectly simple.

Furthermore, you have to ask WHY this is the case.

EVEN if you were correct in saying this isn't plagiarism (which you are simply not) - can you tell me why any respectable artist would base so many of her own compositions on the previously established work of others, rather than creating something of their own?

a) Lack of talent - thus needing to steal somebody else's structure, orchestration, concept, idea, melody, style, etc, etc.

b) Lack of effort - it's easier to do that than it is to do the work yourself.

c) Consummate disrespect for those whom you have plundered. Probably also a combination of (a) and (b) simultaneously.

All of the artists whose work was allegedly ripped off by Kanno who were informed reacted very well, acknowledging it as different and if the actual artists don't have any snobby artistic hangups, I sure as hell don't care about yours.

Wow, what IS your problem?

As I understand it, *some* of the artists (we are talking a number that could be counted on one hand) were informed, and they either ignored the communication, or they wrote back and said a) who cares? or b) it's not too bad, never mind.

This discussion is primarily about the plagiarism contained within Kanno's orchestral music. To my knowledge, nobody has visited the artists Ms Kanno has plundered because most of them are dead.

If I steal your car, and you say you don't really mind, I'm still a thief.

If Kanno steals somebody's song and they don't care, she still stole.

As for my "snobbery" I speak on behalf of talented people who are rotting in obscurity whilst a talentless hack mixes and matches from their back catalogues and passes it off as their own.

The reason Kanno isn't in prison yet is:

a) She steals mostly from dead people, who don't tend to bring lawsuits.

b) Of people who watch anime, what percentage will appreciate the music on a greater-than-average level? Of that, what percentage will be aquainted with classical music and with Western film music of the last fifty years? Of THAT, what percentage will speak English? Of THAT, what percentage will care enough to make it a legal issue? The fact is, not enough people *care* or are in a position to even realise it is happening, for it to be an issue for Kanno. She's obviously getting the last laugh.

And finally, I really don't care if you think I'm a snob or not - the fact that you reject the truth will NOT be keeping me awake at night.

However, your breathtaking arrogance, lack of knowledge, childish argument, most likely will.

No, she isn't. Regardless of how forthright you are to the contrary. And apperantly it is up for debate, seeing how we both choose to debate it. Or is it irrefutable fact becaue my opinion doesn't happen to jive with yours and most likely won't change? Oh well, I won't reply again, so no matter.

Yes, she is. Of course it's open for debate in the sense that we can talk about it. But a debate will not change the facts, no matter how hard you argue against them.

You suspect that I disregard what you think because it doesn't match up with your own opinion.

And yet, you are clearly doing exactly the same to me, for exactly the same reason.

And my argument is based on fact. Yours is baseless.

Feel free to reply again, but don't flame me because I don't agree with you, and don't flame me because I'm telling you you're wrong. You may not believe that you're wrong. You may even believe that *I* am wrong. Please, feel free to think whatever you like, but at the same time be aware that you, are in fact, wrong.

tangotreats

05-20-2008, 06:56 PM

dannyfrench: I was hoping you were going to come back to this thread and we could compare notes on Kanno's various "borrowings."

For example, what's up with Felicity from Turn a Gundam? Is it actually plagiarized from anything, or has Kanno adapted to the Western drama-scoring sound of Silvestri, Edelman, and Menken so well that you can barely tell the difference between her and them? It's strange that when a composer borrows so much that anything remotely original becomes some kind of anomaly. Amazing piece, though.

Indeed, I think it's very telling that when we hear something that may have a claim to a vague sense of originality, that we're second guessing ourselves, and are wondering exactly what it's based on.

Felicity is a case in point. It evokes a thousand different things to me, but none specific. It's most definitely not original in the sense that the technique is new, but melodically and harmonically I can't match it to anything else I'm familiar with.

Sibelius's Finlandia
Debussy's Nuages
Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
Williams's Star Wars (the rebel theme)
and the most obvious one: Zimmer's Pirates of the Caribbean makes an unprecedented appearance

Indeed! The very first cue in the entire series. The first two minutes of it are gorgeous, highly derivative in a general sense, but not direct thefts of anything I'm familiar with. The high piccolo line and thick strings that play at the title screen seems to steal a piece of music *I* wrote five years ago, but I'll put that one down to chance. ;) And then, there we are, in Scheherezade, and then it wanders off into something else, and the cue closes with a Kanno trademark - the dissonant French horn harmonies.

Finlandia turning up in there... That entire cue said "Finlandia" to me right from the very beginning, but only in a sense of orchestration and harmonic movement. And then, suddenly there is a modulation which is DIRECTLY COPIED, scoring, harmonies, et al, from Finlandia. Why in God's name is she doing this? Is she trying to quote, or is there more going on?

Personally, I'm developing a theory that Yoko Kanno is, in fact, an entity, and her orchestral music is ghost-written by considerably more talented people... Who are pissed off at their lack of recognition, and so insert these constant, highly suspect, verbatim quotations from classical and film music. It just screams out, "manufactured".

I've only had a chance to skim through Macross (and only the first two episodes) so didn't get the other thefts you mention, but I will have a lot of fun with the OST when it turns up in about a month!

streichorchester

05-20-2008, 08:25 PM

Personally, I'm developing a theory that Yoko Kanno is, in fact, an entity, and her orchestral music is ghost-written by considerably more talented people... Who are pissed off at their lack of recognition, and so insert these constant, highly suspect, verbatim quotations from classical and film music. It just screams out, "manufactured".

If that were true, it would have to go as far back as her first forays into composing starting with PC games and The Creation. But this site says she's had formal training:

http://nippop.com/artist/artist_id-133/artist_name-yoko_kanno/

but it's not clear if it was for piano, composition, even voice.

tangotreats

05-20-2008, 08:45 PM

Woaah...

She began playing piano at an early age, and in 1974 won a Yamaha sponsored piano competition, becoming the youngest person ever to do so.

This is new...

After winning a number of similar competitions, she moved to Paris to study at the Conservatore National Superieur de Musique de Danse de Paris.

Suddenly she's studied at a prestigious french Conservatory?

I wonder if the gentleman who wrote that biography is getting her mixed up with the "other" Yoko Kanno - a trained, classical pianist? http://www.kilie.com/yoko/

It looks quite probable.

Bad translation from the "other" Kanno's site:

"Improvisational pianist and composer. Played piano from age 4. Former student of Waseda University."

Who knows? I'd really really like the following:

a) To speak flawless Japanese.
b) To meet with the woman in a private place, for a very long time. No jokes please - though I am a red blooded male... ;)

I want to hand her a pencil and a very large sheet of paper, and say, "Compose something" - see what she does. She gets a piano and a pencil sharpener, nothing more. Does a fully orchestrated, performable score emerge?

I want to ask her about her inspirations. I want to explicitly play her examples of her most flagrant plagiarism (Titus in Aquarion, for instance) and ask candidly and straightforwardly for an explanation?

Would she claim ignorance? Would she say, "Yes, I know - so what?" Would she say, "They're quotations - I am paying respect." Would she say, "This interview is over, get out of my house!" Would she say, "For God's sake don't tell anybody, I'm a talentless pretender and I have to steal because I have no imagination of my own..." Would she say, "Nobody notices, who the hell cares, it's Anime - pretty much nobody knows what I'm doing outside of a few dozen hardcore British / American / Other Western English-speaking fans, so it doesn't matter."

Most interestingly of all, can anybody suggest any *other* potential things she might possibly say? I think I have covered all bases...? What more could there be?

Conducting this discussion directly with Kanno in her native language is fast becoming one of my biggest fantasies.

If she tried recording with the LSO, they'd laugh her off the podium. Obviously these Warsaw folks are pretty unquestioning. They're a world renowned classical performance ensemble. Has nobody at any of her sessions stood up and said, "Excuse me, but isn't this Poulenc / Sibelius / Prokofiev / Orff / Jerry Goldsmith / Goldenthal / Ravel / Debussy / etc, etc?"

streichorchester

05-20-2008, 09:44 PM

I wonder if the gentleman who wrote that biography is getting her mixed up with the "other" Yoko Kanno - a trained, classical pianist? http://www.kilie.com/yoko/

Haha, holy shit! I had no idea. Could that be any more inconvenient for someone doing research on Kanno's history??

I want to ask her about her inspirations. I want to explicitly play her examples of her most flagrant plagiarism (Titus in Aquarion, for instance) and ask candidly and straightforwardly for an explanation?

I think even more interesting would be to ask whoever wrote those Titus cues in Aquarion, Kanno or not, how they came to appreciate relatively obscure Western film scores, especially those by Goldenthal. You see a lot of English-speaking people buying Western film scores, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French, etc.. also big fanbases, with several composers among them I'm sure. How did a Japanese woman manage to internalize the Western tradition more than anyone else?

Most interestingly of all, can anybody suggest any *other* potential things she might possibly say?

Well, Japan doesn't have the best track record when it comes to originality in their orchestral music for television. Sometimes they just license the music, like for Iron Chef or other live game shows, and it's all good. But as mentioned with the Battle Royal 2 thing, there is a tendency to stick close to their models or temp tracks. Maybe they figure it's just not a big deal.

But it's funny. You get the impression with Kanno's music there is some desire to be artistic and creative, so you have this odd juxtaposition. For example, in Brain Powerd track 10 (OST1) is clearly a reference to Interview With the Vampire, but then it ends with a motif that is further developed in the next track which sounds perfectly original to my ears (not the Silvestri motif from the Abyss.) Why this grey area?

"Excuse me, but isn't this Poulenc / Sibelius / Prokofiev / Orff / Jerry Goldsmith / Goldenthal / Ravel / Debussy / etc, etc?"

Probably not anymore than they did for Horner. In the case of the Warsaw Philharmonic, maybe they were vocaling their discontent with the material, in a very thick Polish accent.

tangotreats

05-20-2008, 10:05 PM

I think even more interesting would be to ask whoever wrote those Titus cues in Aquarion, Kanno or not, how they came to appreciate relatively obscure Western film scores, especially those by Goldenthal. You see a lot of English-speaking people buying Western film scores, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French, etc.. also big fanbases, with several composers among them I'm sure. How did a Japanese woman manage to internalize the Western tradition more than anyone else?

Indeed... It feels very strange. Obviously whoever is writing this stuff is one of the biggest, most comprehensively geeky fans of Western film music known to mankind. Does Kanno secretely hold an endless library of film scores? As you rightly point out, the sheer diversity of it is amazing. She even quotes the goddamned 1950s VistaVision fanfare in the middle of Aquarion, for God's sake. What in the hell is going on? The Brave Little Toaster? The Omen? It's as if this Yoko Kanno creature has somehow absorbed every single piece of film music ever written (and most classical ones too) and grinds them up.

Well, Japan doesn't have the best track record when it comes to originality in their orchestral music for television. Sometimes they just license the music, like for Iron Chef or other live game shows, and it's all good. But as mentioned with the Battle Royal 2 thing, there is a tendency to stick close to their models or temp tracks. Maybe they figure it's just not a big deal.

Amano drives me absolutely nuts - moreso than Kanno, but his output has been comparitively less, and he's not ass-licked to the extent Kanno is, so I haven't really mentioned it. But just off the top of my head, Giant Robo's main theme is William Walton's Coronation Anthem (I forget which) and there's a track in there that's a straightforward ripoff of Goldsmith's Dr Kildare theme, with a different melody. There's Arnold's Stargate, etc, etc... But this is about Kanno.

It's a strange situation in Japan. On one hand, there's a remarkable workman attitude to music - the temp track aping, the unashamed plagiarism, etc... But somehow, quality music still emerges. What the hell? One one hand, they don't care, and on the other hand, they're throwing out some of the best music ever written for crappy TV shows. You get a full orchestra, and ravishing symphonic arrangements... in a Saturday morning drama series, in a kid's cartoon about giant robots... You get people like Yoshihisa Hirano who are just geniuses of the highest proportion, writing lovely classical pastiche mixed with modernist dissonance and a massive dose of completely personal style... for fluff like Ouran High School Host Club. And THAT gets a symphony orchestra too. The mind boggles.

But it's funny. You get the impression with Kanno's music there is some desire to be artistic and creative, so you have this odd juxtaposition.

That's the really weird thing. Obviously SO MUCH WORK and SO MUCH MONEY is going into this stuff. The orchestrations in Kanno's work are some of the thickest, busiest, most velvety arrangements I've ever heard for symphony orchestra. The development is grade A classical technique. They throw enough cash to hire a MASSIVE orchestra (Kanno's Warsaw recordings easily sound to me like 80+ musicians.) SOMEBODY is working very, VERY hard, and is exceptionally talented. If I could orchestrate a tenth as well as Kanno, I'd die of pure unadulterated joy right where I stand. And at the same time, they're taking what seems like the most lazy, artless route possible and just tossing in cut and paste jobs from other pieces. That does NOT make sense.

For example, in Brain Powerd track 10 (OST1) is clearly a reference to Interview With the Vampire, but then it ends with a motif that is further developed in the next track which sounds perfectly original to my ears (not the Silvestri motif from the Abyss.) Why this grey area?

Indeed again... It's like you paint the most glorious picture of the most glorious imaginary house... Then you have the Mona Lisa staring out one of the windows wearing a cheesy grin.

Probably not anymore than they did for Horner. In the case of the Warsaw Philharmonic, maybe they were vocaling their discontent with the material, in a very thick Polish accent.

True. The LSO grit their teeth and play what they're given, because if they don't a) they go bankrupt, and b) somebody else *will* take the job anyway.

I remember a quote from Anthony Inglis, who conducted most of Kanno's earlier recordings in Warsaw and Israel. He said he thought Kanno was a complete genius, and that the entire orchestra were in awe at the music. Hell, if Inglis doesn't care, and the orchestra doesn't care... Maybe I *am* a snob...

[Edit: The Inglis quote in full. http://www.jameswong.com/ykproject/extra_inglis.html]

[of Macross Plus]Everybody liked the music, it was inspiring stuff. The Israel Philharmonic were in awe of the music. Make no mistake, the Israel Philharmonic are a world class orchestra so it takes a lot to impress them. [of Escaflowne] Yet again, the orchestra and chorus loved the music. There is no doubt that Yoko Kanno is an extremely talented composer. [Of orchestration in general] It was also apparently the first time she had ever orchestrated for an orchestra. Which if it is true, I have no reason to doubt it, she is a genius. I should know, I have done orchestration and it is incredibly hard and requires a lot of practice.

streichorchester

05-20-2008, 11:49 PM

(I'm not familiar with the VistaVision fanfare, is there anywhere I can hear it?)

That Inglis quote is disturbing. It's almost indication of some kind of conspiracy to cover up the truth. First time orchestrating? Wasn't Kanno credited with orchestrating the Orchestral Game Concerts? Nobunaga's Ambition? The Creation?? What was the sign that she was a beginner orchestrator? Similarly, on another forum I brought up the Origa quote that said something to the effect of Kanno just being a beginner pianist until they met in the mid-90s and I got chewed out because obviously Kanno had some professional piano recordings of her work done in the 80s or something. It's beginning to seem that even Kanno's associations can't deliver a straight answer.

But in the Inglis interview there's an intriguing quote:
"I get no musical guidance from Kanno or any of the Japanese composers I have worked with."

That would indicate that either Kanno was unwilling to guide him, or there was too strong a language barrier, or that she just couldn't because the music was composed by committee and not one person.

But then, if Kanno is not there to deliver her thoughts on the performance for, let's say, Turn a Gundam, then how come her live performances sound just like the Warsaw recordings? What about those video clips of her conducting an orchestra that appears to be the Warsaw Philharmonic in that Korean Turn a Gundam Live documentary?

tangotreats

05-21-2008, 09:38 PM

That Inglis quote is disturbing. It's almost indication of some kind of conspiracy to cover up the truth. First time orchestrating? Wasn't Kanno credited with orchestrating the Orchestral Game Concerts? Nobunaga's Ambition? The Creation?? What was the sign that she was a beginner orchestrator? Similarly, on another forum I brought up the Origa quote that said something to the effect of Kanno just being a beginner pianist until they met in the mid-90s and I got chewed out because obviously Kanno had some professional piano recordings of her work done in the 80s or something. It's beginning to seem that even Kanno's associations can't deliver a straight answer.

The first-time-orchestrator quote was in relation to 1994's session in Israel for Macross Plus. As you so rightly say, her appearances at the Orchestral Game Concerts predate this by several years. Allegedly Kanno orchestrated (and conducted) at OGC's 1 (1991) through 4 (1994), with the final being conducted solely by Koichi Sugiyama.

You don't hire just a nobody as a jobbing orchestrator, and conductor, with the Tokyo City Philharmonic at a flagship concert event. Kanno arranged music by others too - not just her own. Obviously the orchestral talent that was being attached to the Kanno name was being recognised and sought after even in 1991... But what previous work had she on her resume? The Creation? A lovely bit of Ravel pastiche, but hardly qualification to arrange for and conduct your country's flagship symphony orchestra...

But in the Inglis interview there's an intriguing quote:
"I get no musical guidance from Kanno or any of the Japanese composers I have worked with."

I'm the most suspicious person on the planet, and I interpreted that as:

"The composers hand over their scores and they don't harass me - I just get on with it and conduct it."

Inglis has conducted for many people - not just Kanno. He worked with Akira Senju on Victory Gundam, whose abilities and credentials are unquestionable. From the tone of the interview in the Senju sections, it really does sound like "I get the music and they trust my interpretation." - I didn't take it to mean "They don't know what they're doing so I have to do the hard stuff."

But now I'm looking at it another way. Kanno writes this jaw-dropping tour-de-force work for orchestra, flies out to the session in Israel... And sits in the corner making no comment whatsoever on the performance? This can't be the language barrier at work. I doubt Kanno jumped on a plane and went to Israel entirely alone. Obviously translators, crew, (under my breath, orchestrators?) etc went along for the ride. It gets fishier by the moment.

But then, if Kanno is not there to deliver her thoughts on the performance for, let's say, Turn a Gundam, then how come her live performances sound just like the Warsaw recordings?

Indeed... Somebody else's interpretation. Somebody plays the orchestra a CD of the Warsaw recordings and they say "it should sound like this" - and off they go.

Allowing for difference in acoustics, and that the musicians at the Turn A Gundam concert are a) obviously inferior to the Warsaw orchestra and b) severely under-rehearsed, it's exactly the bloody same as the OST recording. There's no personality in it at all.

Come to think of it, there's no personality in any of Kanno's music. As I have said, I find it technically impeccable, complex form, beautifully orchestrated, but still oddly textbook. The fact that Kanno-conducted performances are indistinguishable from Inglis or Klemens-conducted performances just confirms this...

What about those video clips of her conducting an orchestra that appears to be the Warsaw Philharmonic in that Korean Turn a Gundam Live documentary?

One has to ask... why are these clips only a couple of seconds long, and why do we never hear from anybody else what they think of the music?

As I believe I've suggested before, the Warsaw lot don't suffer fools. They don't have time. Kanno, by her own admission, speaks barely enough English to survive in the studio. I doubt she can communicate musical nuances and performance particulars to 90 angry Poles who are on the clock. I suspect the orchestra speak English (I doubt Inglis speaks Polish or Hebrew) but they NEED somebody who knows what the hell they're talking about.

I have experience contracting orchestras - the first thing they ask you is, are you a seasoned experienced conductor? If the answer is no, by and large they won't work for you unless you provide a conductor or hire a local one. Hello, Mario Klemens / Anthony Inglis!

The Brno Philharmonic insist on a skilled conductor with proven credentials. They even ask for proof of his previous work so they can be *assured* that he won't be wasting the orchestra's time when they're all in the studio. They also recommend you have a Czech interpreter handy as the orchestra's English is very limited.

The City of Prague basically don't care as long as you pay the bill. They claim the orchestra are good English speakers so interpreters are not required.

I've never spoken directly to the Warsaw or Israel ensembles. I wonder where they stand?

streichorchester

05-21-2008, 11:56 PM

Kanno arranged music by others too - not just her own. Obviously the orchestral talent that was being attached to the Kanno name was being recognised and sought after even in 1991... But what previous work had she on her resume? The Creation? A lovely bit of Ravel pastiche, but hardly qualification to arrange for and conduct your country's flagship symphony orchestra...

I think it's safe to say that based on the consistent style and tone of Kanno's works, the same "team" has been attached to Kanno for almost 20 years now (and even although Nobunaga does sound vastly different from Macross Plus and Escaflowne probably due to it being performed by a non-European orchestra, the telltale classical rips are still there in their infancy.) So if it is more than one composer/orchestrator, they're certainly not making themselves known beyond Kanno's projects since not a single Japanese anime or game soundtrack I'm aware of carries the same sound or tone. If all of a sudden one day we find some American guy behind the orchestrations, what kind of other high profile work would he/they have done? As far as I've heard, nothing. Kinda limiting, both artistically and financially, don't you think?

Speaking of the Orchestral Game Concerts, there were two pieces that were obviously influenced by John Williams: The Legend of Zelda theme and Meridian Child from Seiken Densetsu 3. Since it's fact that Williams inspired the "Flying Dragon" cue from Escaflowne, I wonder if there's any connection. But Meridian Child is from the one concert Kanno didn't have a credit for. It seems her only work for those concerts are for tracks from games that she composed and it's likely she didn't touch anyone else's music, considering none of them are orchestrated in "her" style.

I didn't take it to mean "They don't know what they're doing so I have to do the hard stuff."

But even Inglis, if he has no actual proof of who composed/orchestrated those scores, would still have to be taken aback by Kanno's story, if he was indeed told the one about Kanno being a first-timer. Here's this conductor being contacted by several Japanese companies who send him scores and ask for orchestral recordings, and the one he gets (probably) the least input for (assuming there is no orchestrator pretending to be the intermediary) is arguably the best orchestrated one of them all. Essentially, the one score that warrants the most input from the composer gives him the silent treatment. And he doesn't question the authenticity or originality one bit, even as he conducts Wolfgang-Korngold's violin concerto for Aquarion.

One has to ask... why are these clips only a couple of seconds long, and why do we never hear from anybody else what they think of the music?

For some strange reason I am reminded of this image from long ago while watching a Star Trek TNG documentary hosted by Jonathan Frakes before the series finale and being amazed by the footage of the score's recording sessions they showed. Even Marina Sirtis, in full Counselor Troi costume, got a chance to conduct a cue for a minute or so. But I think with Kanno we can give her the benefit of the doubt (or is it the benefit of the non-doubt?) since she did end up conducting that entire performance, as "staged" as it might have been.

I have experience contracting orchestras -

Do you have any recordings you can show me? I'd be interested in hearing them.

Destai

05-22-2008, 11:29 PM

NaotaM

05-23-2008, 04:37 AM

More like, I only corrected a handful of your howlers in your barely coherent sentence to avoid causing offense, and because it didn't make any difference. IN your reply, you have moved to attack mode, whereas my reply was clearly tongue in cheek and intended as a friendly critique.

Kindly list my language faux-pas and tell me what relevance they have to this discussion, aside from the fact that by talking about them, you are diverting attention away from your failing argument?

You really don't have to grant or withhold your agreement here. Nobody is asking for your agreement or understanding.

Everybody has a different idea of "barely similar" - as far as I'm concerned, if there is SUFFICIENT similarity for a positive comparison to be made, then that is too much. You really don't have to be a musicologist to appreciate this, though I suspect that your obvious lack of classical music experience, and lack of encyclopedia-level knowledge of Western film music, leads you to draw incorrect conclusions.

I call nonsense.

I repeat - yes, IT IS. That you don't believe this to be true is not relevant, because it doesn't change the facts. Please stop confusing your own personal (incorrect) viewpoint with established fact. They are clearly not the same thing. [Note - of course, I respect your right to your viewpoint - as you must respect the fact that what you are saying could be wrong, and furthermore that you do not automatically assume anybody ELSE is wrong purely because they don't agree with you.

Yes, it is. I am sick of arguing this point. You are not correct. It is perfectly simple.

Furthermore, you have to ask WHY this is the case.

EVEN if you were correct in saying this isn't plagiarism (which you are simply not) - can you tell me why any respectable artist would base so many of her own compositions on the previously established work of others, rather than creating something of their own?

a) Lack of talent - thus needing to steal somebody else's structure, orchestration, concept, idea, melody, style, etc, etc.

b) Lack of effort - it's easier to do that than it is to do the work yourself.

c) Consummate disrespect for those whom you have plundered. Probably also a combination of (a) and (b) simultaneously.

Wow, what IS your problem?

As I understand it, *some* of the artists (we are talking a number that could be counted on one hand) were informed, and they either ignored the communication, or they wrote back and said a) who cares? or b) it's not too bad, never mind.

This discussion is primarily about the plagiarism contained within Kanno's orchestral music. To my knowledge, nobody has visited the artists Ms Kanno has plundered because most of them are dead.

If I steal your car, and you say you don't really mind, I'm still a thief.

If Kanno steals somebody's song and they don't care, she still stole.

As for my "snobbery" I speak on behalf of talented people who are rotting in obscurity whilst a talentless hack mixes and matches from their back catalogues and passes it off as their own.

The reason Kanno isn't in prison yet is:

a) She steals mostly from dead people, who don't tend to bring lawsuits.

b) Of people who watch anime, what percentage will appreciate the music on a greater-than-average level? Of that, what percentage will be aquainted with classical music and with Western film music of the last fifty years? Of THAT, what percentage will speak English? Of THAT, what percentage will care enough to make it a legal issue? The fact is, not enough people *care* or are in a position to even realise it is happening, for it to be an issue for Kanno. She's obviously getting the last laugh.

And finally, I really don't care if you think I'm a snob or not - the fact that you reject the truth will NOT be keeping me awake at night.

However, your breathtaking arrogance, lack of knowledge, childish argument, most likely will.

Yes, she is. Of course it's open for debate in the sense that we can talk about it. But a debate will not change the facts, no matter how hard you argue against them.

You suspect that I disregard what you think because it doesn't match up with your own opinion.

And yet, you are clearly doing exactly the same to me, for exactly the same reason.

And my argument is based on fact. Yours is baseless.

Feel free to reply again, but don't flame me because I don't agree with you, and don't flame me because I'm telling you you're wrong. You may not believe that you're wrong. You may even believe that *I* am wrong. Please, feel free to think whatever you like, but at the same time be aware that you, are in fact, wrong.

I continue to disregard your elitist argument with lulz and yawns because you make the whole deal about how you're unquestionably correct and how I am incorrect, and yet your argument failed before it even started precisely because you state no actual facts. You're flaming me becasue I disagree with you and you're enough of a snob to believe your baseless hate is fueled by facts written in stone. I just reply because you replied first to pound it into my skull that your opinion on Yoko Kanno is somehow irrefutable fact. Thou who cast the first stone. :/ Oh noes, I'm not c knowledgable in classical music to be enlightened to the truth! Don't make me laugh. Not that you haven't already.

Prove she's a thief with actual facts or I'll just go back to ignoring your elitist jibber-jabber and your existence as a whole.

Oh, and I'd like to take back what I said about Uematsu. Dude does some good stuff, and his tracks sit comfortably in itunes alongside my much vaster YK collection. ;P

Yokai

05-23-2008, 06:43 AM

I couldn't vote on this if my life depended on it... Both are amazing in my oppinion. Nobuo Uematsu did a wonderful job with the lost odyssey soundtrack recently, and his melodies are amazingly suiting for the specific themes and emotions that the games put out. Plus : The Sight of Spira is probably one of the best Jazz Chord Melody Pieces I've ever heard in my life.

However, Yoko is quite the talented musician and does the soundtracks for most companies / anime soundtracks. I believe she even made the melodies that play when you arrive at your destination on the JR lines in Japan.

When it comes down to it, both are good in their own merits and I feel thats all that can be said. You can't say a certain musician is BETTER than another, I think thats completely in-comprehendable. Music can either be good or bad really, and Yoko and Uematsu BOTH do their fair share of innovation to the genres they provide for. Uematsu is definitely the best composer for video games and Yoko is definitely better than most holly wood film scores and anime scores. Infact, I would say Yoko Kanno's music certainly beats that of the StarWars soundtrack in melody and style.

I stay undecided, and respect both as being very good artists. Nobuo is getting a lot of negative rep here, but I would like to dare someone to find a better composer for video game soundtracks. Naoshi Mizuta is one who comes close to Uematsu level, but definitely needs a lot of work. Luckily, he is doing XIII's soundtrack so we will see where that goes.

NaotaM

05-23-2008, 06:57 AM

I stay undecided, and respect both as being very good artists. Nobuo is getting a lot of negative rep here, but I would like to dare someone to find a better composer for video game soundtracks. Naoshi Mizuta is one who comes close to Uematsu level, but definitely needs a lot of work. Luckily, he is doing XIII's soundtrack so we will see where that goes.

Ironic isn't it, considering Final Fantasy's right there in the site's name.

Yeah, I love em both too, but Yoko gets the edge up for me. As for vg soundtracks, I'm a bit more partial to Koji Kondo, Yasunori Mitsuda and Harry Gregson-Williams....at least I think that's his name. It's way too late to check Wikipedia, but he did MGS3. But only Koji really comes close to Nobuo as far as the sheer length of his track record, I suppose.

tangotreats

05-23-2008, 02:39 PM

I have more to comment but I must respond to NaotaM:

I continue to disregard your elitist argument with lulz and yawns because you make the whole deal about how you're unquestionably correct and how I am incorrect, and yet your argument failed before it even started precisely because you state no actual facts. You're flaming me becasue I disagree with you and you're enough of a snob to believe your baseless hate is fueled by facts written in stone. I just reply because you replied first to pound it into my skull that your opinion on Yoko Kanno is somehow irrefutable fact. Thou who cast the first stone. :/ Oh noes, I'm not c knowledgable in classical music to be enlightened to the truth! Don't make me laugh. Not that you haven't already.

My friend, my argument does not fail or succeed. I don't even have an argument, just as I do not have an argument that the sky is blue, or an elephant is larger than a gerbil.

If it seems as though I'm flaming you, I sincerely apologise, because I'm not meaning to, and I definitely DO respect your opinion. I do continue to suspect, however, that you don't respect MINE because a) it's not the same as yours, and b) I haven't provided you with the evidence you require.

Please, don't call me a snob - that's quite offensive, firstly because I'm simply not (there are plenty who are,) but also because all I am doing is stating a fact. You say you don't think it's plagiarism. Fair enough. It *is* plagiarism, however. Proving it to you doesn't make it any more true. It just means you might believe it whereas now, you don't.

I made the statement about your supposed lack of knowledge not to be offensive, snobby, or arrogant, but as an honest suggestion as to why you don't believe Kanno's plagiarism to be plagiarism. My ears - yes, they're musically trained but that doesn't matter in the slightest bit - detect plagiarism because I am a boring fart who does nothing but listen to film music and classical music. The fact that that's my life, I thought, maybe qualified me better to point out that A is like B is like Y, because I know them all very well.

If you don't know Alan Silvestri's The Abyss, or Korngold's Violin Concerto, or Ravel's Bolero, or Goldsmith's The Omen, then of course it doesn't sound like plagiarism to you, because you have nothing to compare it against. That was why I said what I said. My common sense told me that, for you to be able to deny it, could only mean that you had never heard it.

I'm not, nor have I ever been, trying to score points off you or try to make you look stupid. Once again, if it seems that way, I apologise.

I am in an awkward position. I have a viewpoint which I know to be the correct one - not just because I think so, but because it is. I have to somehow get you to see this without coming across as an arrogant bastard.

Let me clarify - I love Kanno's music to pieces. But, it IS, with a few exceptions, all either outright plagiarism, or clearly based on somebody else's work. It's still great. But she didn't write it.

I can't prove it to you if you can't see it already. I assume you've heard the compositions in question, or you wouldn't have said that it was outright NOT PLAGIARISM - had you done so, that would have been an unqualified argument.

I assume you've heard them, and are familar with them.

If I give you comparisons and say, here's The AByss, and here's Brain Powerd, you'll probably say, "So what, they're vaguely similar, it's not plagiarism."

I've wasted my time and you've wasted yours, and we still have opposing viewpoints.

I don't care if you don't want to share my view - that's entirely your perogative, of course - seriously.

But right now, we're in the following:

Me: I'm right.
You: No, I'm right.
Me: No, you're wrong.
You: Prove it.
Me: Why should I? You're still wrong.

etc - and we both end up hating each other. It's pointless.

Prove she's a thief with actual facts or I'll just go back to ignoring your elitist jibber-jabber and your existence as a whole.

That's unnecessary, and once again very hurtful, that you would effectively disregard me because I have a view that isn't the same as yours.

I'm not elitist, and I'm not talking nonsense. I'm just saying something that you don't like and don't believe. Fair enough - so disagree with me.

If you don't hear the plagiarism, or don't think it's too bad, fine - then you go on with the view that you believe in.

But just because you can't see something, doesn't mean other people can't, and doesn't make it any less real. I don't know how else to say that without offending you.

Finally, YOU made this argument personal. I intended my redux of your paragraph to be a vaguely amusing example of plagiarism in the style you claimed wasn't a bad thing. I even insulted myself in the process so you'd know that I didn't mean anything personal. I even shoved a winky smiley on the end of it.

You turned round and said that you were going to ignore my argument because I made a typo, and you repeated back to me, my original jocular insult, but you added to it and told me I was being glib.

I had no problem with you, outside of your unwillingness to accept that you may be incorrect, and your tendency to confuse YOUR OPINION with FACT, until you did that.

I am not an asshole. (Seriously - come to London, I'll buy you a beer, and you can discover that I'm actually a nice guy.)

Oh, and I'd like to take back what I said about Uematsu. Dude does some good stuff, and his tracks sit comfortably in itunes alongside my much vaster YK collection. ;P

Uematsu's had his successes... And a great big stinking pile of failures. Surely we can agree on that if nothing else.

From a musical POV, it's Kanno all the way. But I say Uematsu is the better artist purely because, whilst a great deal of his music may be crap, it's HIS crap. You live or die by your art. I'd rather be hated for being myself than loved for pretending to be somebody else.

That's not elisist or snobby. It's just a view of art. Music is art. Some people have strong opinions of it. Some people see it as lightweight entertainment.

Once again, I think differently to you - and as a result you call me a snob.

Not fair, not fair at all.

tangotreats

05-23-2008, 02:45 PM

When it comes down to it, both are good in their own merits and I feel thats all that can be said. You can't say a certain musician is BETTER than another, I think thats completely in-comprehendable. Music can either be good or bad really, and Yoko and Uematsu BOTH do their fair share of innovation to the genres they provide for. Uematsu is definitely the best composer for video games and Yoko is definitely better than most holly wood film scores and anime scores. Infact, I would say Yoko Kanno's music certainly beats that of the StarWars soundtrack in melody and style.

You can judge a musician on his morals.

You can't judge it on whose is the better music, because music you hate I might love, and vice versa. That's subjective.

But you can say that one person is the better ARTIST because you can judge them on the way they approach their art.

Musically, Kanno's music rivals Star Wars. But you simply cannot excuse the fact that she has re-used other people's ideas, from a simply incomprehensible number of different sources, and glued them together into something great.

The original thread said they were both great ARTISTS - and it was that wording that has inspired my response and my line of discussion so far in this thread.

tangotreats

05-23-2008, 02:52 PM

Just wanted to chirp in, a thanks for the heads up on Yoko Kanno and how she goes about her music. Watching videos of her creating the score for Ragnarok II her personality seemed blatantly fake and embaressing for a woman in her 40's. Portraying herself in the "magical girl" persona and forgetting to put on a high pitched voice half way through the interview, silently poking at the other uncomfortable looking staffs ice cream, not saying anything but displaying her opinion with an o.t.t. smile or grimace. Idiot! I had the impression she was far more interested in the perks of the job than the music. As she arguably sets the standard for anime music I've been left with a lower opinion of it in general. It looks more like a cheap knock off of the real deal to me. Sad!

I still would continue to think of Uematsu as a simpler writer of melodies of typical rpg music at a reasonable standard. At least he coms across sincere toward his work. I've seen him express but pleasure and great disappointment in his work. I remember when he wrote the theme for FFTA he apologized tot he director for not being able to achieve his elaborate vision which led the director and main composer to go on to praise the theme. I guess he's at least taking his art seriously! How does that stand to this attention seeker?

A fine post. Kanno, like her music, is purely conceptual, committee-driven, manufactured. It's a technique that obviously works because people love the music and she sells probably more CDs than anybody in her arena.

But when I listen to music, I like to feel closer to the human being whose soul conjured it up. When you listen to anime music, video game music, film music, you're hearing AN INDIVIDUAL and their expression of emotion in a particular scene. That's important, and that's why you hire somebody. You hired Jerry Goldsmith because you liked the way *he* thought and *he* interpreted onscreen events. You hire John Williams because you trust his judgement.

If you hire somebody and they give you a technically stunning pot-pourri of other people's ideas - valid ideas, ideas that work beautifully in context, but still other people's ideas... Why did you hire them?

Music becomes a workmanlike, faceless function of your anime, video game, or movie.

And the people who had the ideas initially - those ideas that make you cry when you hear Escaflowne's ending titles, or makes your heart pound when you hear Dance of Curse - THEY'RE the people you're getting to know. But you don't know it was them. That person has affected you emotionally and you're not even told who they are. Somebody else has manipulated your emotions using somebody else's face and they claim the credit for the affect their manipulation had on you.

That's unforgivable from an artistic point of view.

NaotaM

05-23-2008, 03:49 PM

I have more to comment but I must respond to NaotaM:

[QUOTE]If it seems as though I'm flaming you, I sincerely apologise, because I'm not meaning to, and I definitely DO respect your opinion. I do continue to suspect, however, that you don't respect MINE because a) it's not the same as yours, and b) I haven't provided you with the evidence you require.

I don't particularly care either way whether we happened to see eye to eye or not. An opinion isn't fact. I've listened to the music, think it's all original, beautiful and inspiring(Her work inspires my best writing), and one persons' differing viewpoint isn't going to change that, just as mine is unlikely to change yours. It's no big deal.

I just find it insulting when you continue to look me in the face, tell me my opinion is outright WRONG, and time after time can't prove that her work is plagiarism. You've admitted it yourself here. Thing is, you're simply of the opinion that her work is plagiarism, and I sincerely believe the opposite. If you can't present any real proof to convince me without a doubt to the contrary, then it simply isn't fact and I must ask you simply leave it that. Enough with all the "It's real and I'm right" crap. Noone's correct or incorrect to anyone but themself. Agree to disagree.

That said, I apologise for my behavior. *shakes hand* I realize I was being rude and presumptious, but I'm used to regarding random online disagreements that go bad with lulz and tactlessness. Always figured the dude on the other end would be the same. I'm sincerely sorry for hurting your feelings. That, and musical elitism is one of my major buttons, and I apologise for accusing you of that, too.

Now, about that beer...

tangotreats

05-23-2008, 04:48 PM

I don't particularly care either way whether we happened to see eye to eye or not. An opinion isn't fact. I've listened to the music, think it's all original, beautiful and inspiring(Her work inspires my best writing), and one persons' differing viewpoint isn't going to change that, just as mine is unlikely to change yours. It's no big deal.

Fair enough - especially if Kanno's work inspires you to create, all the better.

I just find it insulting when you continue to look me in the face, tell me my opinion is outright WRONG, and time after time can't prove that her work is plagiarism. You've admitted it yourself here.

Not really. I admitted that some people can't be swayed, and that if you didn't see it now, you probably never would.

I really, seriously, don't have to prove anything. Do you have to prove that a cow makes beef?

I guess everybody has a different idea about just WHAT constitutes thievery. It's a fine line to walk, always.

But I really don't know how you can listen to, say, Dance of Curse, and not say that it's a ripoff of O Fortuna or The Omen. Or listen to High Spirit from Aquarion, and not say that it's a ripoff of Wagner's Ride of the Valykries. In my mind, as I say, the fact that the inspiration is clear IS ENOUGH.

She made it different, and she made it sound great. Fact. But why does she need that initial building block? That's my problem. It's because she does this that I question her artistic integrity.

If you want some proof: Listen to the above, and comment. Try to do so with a mind of the mechanics of music. I know people have minds that work differently. I could take Ride of the Valkyries, change the melody, play it to somebody and they would NOT SEE ANY SIMILARITY because they're listening to melody - their brain only hears that, or it doesn't register the rest. When I listen I hear the orchestration, rythym, harmonies, etc, etc - which maybe makes me more susceptible.

By the way, if you want note for note plagiarism you CAN'T dispute... Get out your Aquarion CD and compare Blaqarion with Titus Vow from Elliot Goldenthal's Titus. If you don't have it, let me know and I'll do you a comparison. That's the most flagrant theft.

[Later: OK, you win - here's proof. Here is a five minute MP3.

http://sharebee.com/b419a48c

Example 1:
0:00 to 0:32 - Yoko Kanno, Blaqarion (Aquarion, 2005)
0:33 to 0:57 - Elliot Goldenthal, Titus (1999)

Example 2:
0:58 to 1:24 - Yoko Kanno, Epistle (Escaflowne, 1996)
1:25 to 1:52 - Leos Janacek,Credo (Glagolitic Mass, 1925)

Example 3:
1:52 - 2:05 - Yoko Kanno, Illusion (Escaflowne, 1996)
2:06 - 2:24 - Bernard Herrmann, Scene D'Amour (Vertigo, 1958)

Example 4:
2:25 - 3:17 - Yoko Kanno, Epistle (Escaflowne, 1996)
3:18 - end - Jerry Goldsmith, The Omen (1976)

Is that enough? There are DOZENS more. ;)

That said, I apologise for my behavior. *shakes hand* I realize I was being rude and presumptious, but I'm used to regarding random online disagreements that go bad with lulz and tactlessness. Always figured the dude on the other end would be the same. I'm sincerely sorry for hurting your feelings. That, and musical elitism is one of my major buttons, and I apologise for accusing you of that, too.

Thank you, my friend. I know how you feel. I can scarcely be bothered half the time to attempt a proper discussion with anybody on the Internet because I'm used to attitude-filled morons. I can quite understand why you would have thought the same of me.

That beer is waiting for you if you're ever in town - I'm deadly serious. :)

arthurgolden

05-23-2008, 06:52 PM

Thanks for posting this, dannyfrench. I've been waiting around to see how this argument develops. And now there's concrete, undeniable proof in this mp3. For me, the most blatant was "Illusion." I heard that and immediately thought, "That's a rip-off from Vertigo."

tangotreats

05-23-2008, 07:41 PM

I'm very surprised, and utterly delighted that you highlighted Vertigo as the biggest rip.

I disagree - Titus is note for note, which makes it the most despicable...

BUT.

You went straight to Vertigo - it's the shortest section, it's only one chord progression... But it's probably the most typical of its composer - Bernard Herrmann, that it just COULDN'T have come from anybody else. If nothing else, it is clearly a Herrmann trademark, and it is clearly a lift.

Thnak you. :)

LordDemitri

05-23-2008, 07:52 PM

has yoko kanno composed music for any non-anime related video games? If not, you really cannot compare the works of these two composers fairly.

tangotreats

05-23-2008, 08:09 PM

Yes - Nobunaga's Ambition, probably more.

Though I don't really understand what the genre has to do with quality of music or musicianship. :)

NaotaM

05-23-2008, 08:36 PM

By the way, if you want note for note plagiarism you CAN'T dispute... Get out your Aquarion CD and compare Blaqarion with Titus Vow from Elliot Goldenthal's Titus. If you don't have it, let me know and I'll do you a comparison. That's the most flagrant theft.

[Later: OK, you win - here's proof. Here is a five minute MP3.

http://sharebee.com/b419a48c

Example 1:
0:00 to 0:32 - Yoko Kanno, Blaqarion (Aquarion, 2005)
0:33 to 0:57 - Elliot Goldenthal, Titus (1999)

Example 2:
0:58 to 1:24 - Yoko Kanno, Epistle (Escaflowne, 1996)
1:25 to 1:52 - Leos Janacek,Credo (Glagolitic Mass, 1925)

Example 3:
1:52 - 2:05 - Yoko Kanno, Illusion (Escaflowne, 1996)
2:06 - 2:24 - Bernard Herrmann, Scene D'Amour (Vertigo, 1958)

Example 4:
2:25 - 3:17 - Yoko Kanno, Epistle (Escaflowne, 1996)
3:18 - end - Jerry Goldsmith, The Omen (1976)

I didn't so much see, or should I say hear, 2 and 4, but wow, Blaquarion and Titus are most definitely the same in the beggining. Surprisingly so. I can see where you're coming from with this one. Then, I still like both songs seperately and they do break off after that starting period.

Interestingly, I always thought Blaquarion sounded more Danny Elfman-ish in places. That and Napple Tale's Rabbit Bed, gorgoeus tune, btw.

Thank you.
And yes, I'd be interested in hearing more examples so I can judge for myself.

Thank you, my friend. I know how you feel. I can scarcely be bothered half the time to attempt a proper discussion with anybody on the Internet because I'm used to attitude-filled morons. I can quite understand why you would have thought the same of me.

That beer is waiting for you if you're ever in town - I'm deadly serious. :)

LOL I'm afraid I must actually decline. Only 19, you see. ;P But if you have an IM, I'd love to chat.

streichorchester

05-23-2008, 10:28 PM

Go here:

http://www.monkey-pirate.com/ykdb/index.php?topic=8.0

I post some musical examples later in the thread (my name is Sil over there.)

arthurgolden

05-23-2008, 10:44 PM

arthurgolden

05-25-2008, 06:31 AM

I wanted to listen to some of Yoko Kanno's music, since I'm not all that familiar with it and wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. So I downloaded "Ghost in the Shell - Stand Alone Complex," selected randomly from a thread about her. I only got a few songs in before I pressed "Stop" in total shock. "Where Does This Ocean Go?" is a note for note rip-off of Bjork's "Hyper Ballad" on her Post album. It's surprising that the rip-offs are so obvious. But, anyway, there's another one to add to the list.

tangotreats

05-25-2008, 07:41 PM

Thank you! :)

I seem to have turned the Plagiarism argument into a discussion solely about Kanno's orchestral work - a) because I'm not familiar with her non-orchestral music or their influences, and b) because as a classical musician I pick out the orchestral stuff easier.

Very very welcome to have somebody representing Kanno's pop side. :)

NaotaM

05-25-2008, 09:50 PM

Well, after conducting my wn research, I must concede defeat and admit that, yes, Yoko Kanno is indeed guilty of plagiarism on several different occaisions. I was wrong. *bows*

That said, I don't think of Yoko any differently now, certainly no less, as a conductor, musician, or artist. I'm aware that may make little sense, but when I put two very similar songs, can identify their differences, and love both musically, feeling distinct and evocative emotions from both pieces, I can let it slide.

It's sort of like writing an anime series about, say.....an ordinary high school kid suddenly wrangled into piloting a giant....clay robot with wings on its head by a top secret....defense organization to defend the world from succesive attacks by....gigantic mayan sculptures that attack by singing, all the while struggling with finding the answers he needs while interacting with his....cute, dark-haired roommate, mysterious girl....in french lolita clothing, and an equally mysterious second orginazation as he's led towards his ultimate goal of changing the world forever...by re-writing history itself instead of, say, turning all of humanity into a giant pool of oj.

Or a 3d platform game where you play as a plu....anthropormorphic bear and explore huge, sprawling worlds to rescue the pri....your sister from a Bo....an evil witch.

Or a Zelda-style adventure game, but instead of a mute, effeminate elf, you play as a....dog, exploring a vast world dotted with subterrenean dungeons, using too....divine powers to fight and solve puzzles, all the while towing along your helpful/annoying fai.....tiny man sidekick.

Of course, it's all still plagiarism on the surface, but it helps tremendously if the end result is still unique and mind-blowingly awesome. Same with Kanno, at least to little ole me. ;P

And dannyfrench, my offer to chat over instant messenger still stands.

Crysta

05-25-2008, 10:13 PM

I....can't....decide!! Brain about to explode!! AIEEEEE!!!!

Crysta

Fanboydestroyer

05-26-2008, 05:26 PM

I have to choose? Oh man. This is hard.

Actually I'm going to go with Yoko Kanno. I love Uematsu and I love his work on Final Fantasy IV, VI, VII, and X. But some of his recent stuff hasn't done it for me. The only realtivly new thing I've heard from Kanno was the Aquarion soundtrack which I thought was amazing. I have yet to year Macross Frontier, is that any good? Is it even out yet? Not much of a Macross fan.

arthurgolden

05-26-2008, 06:36 PM

I don't think of Yoko any differently now, certainly no less, as a conductor, musician, or artist. I'm aware that may make little sense, but when I put two very similar songs, can identify their differences, and love both musically, feeling distinct and evocative emotions from both pieces, I can let it slide. . .Of course, it's all still plagiarism on the surface, but it helps tremendously if the end result is still unique and mind-blowingly awesome.

What you're talking about is something different from what we're talking about. You're talking about a piece of music where the influences are obvious, but rather than becoming derivative the composer does enough to make the piece, as you say, "unique."

In "Where Does This Ocean Go?" which I mentioned above, Kanno took the percussion track from a Bjork song and put that into an audio file. Then she took the notes for the accompanying keyboard part, and played them on her own keyboard with a nearly identical sound. Then she took she the vocal melody from Bjork note for note and changed the words. Thus, she had a verse for "her" song.

Would that make the song plagiarized? Yes. But let's say she changed the chorus. The song would still be plagiarized but at least, then, something would be different.

But she didn't change the chorus either. She took the same percussion from Bjork's track, the same string line, the same keyboard part, had the singer sing in the exact same way as Bjork does in "Hyper Ballad," just changed the words.

You use superficial differences between two archetypal stories as your example. What I'm saying is not so harmless. This would be like taking the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time; keeping Link, Zelda, and Ganon; keeping the Triforce; keeping the Gorons and the Zoras and Lon Lon Ranch and the Temple of Time and Saria and the Lost Woods and the locations of all the buildings and the locations of the Gold Skulltullas and the layouts of the dungeons and the sequence of the puzzles and the dialogue with the owl and the soldier in Kakariko Village who wants a mask for his son; but calling the world Boston instead of Hyrule.

Kanno takes the good, the bad, everything whole hog in "Where Does This Ocean Go?" She's indiscriminate with her plagiarism, which makes it so painfully obvious. Tacking on a new name to a piece of music that already exists is not making it your own.

If someone took the Rolling Stones' "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction," with the same guitar line, same rhythm section, same melody, but changed the words, and it somehow got on the radio, people would assume it was a joke. Then if a DJ interviewed the band and they maintained that they had written the song and that it was 100% original, people would assume the band was crazy.

Why? Because it would be madness. Which is what Yoko Kanno is doing. What happened to Vanilla Ice's image after "Ice Ice Baby" came out and he said the extra eighth note made it original? He was successful for a time (like Kanno). And people indulged in his music. But it was under the auspices of being "awesomely bad." He had no credibility. He was a joke.

That's what is happening with Kanno here. Her music is beautiful. But it's not hers. So you could make the case that, though it's plagiarized, you still like listening to it because it's pretty. But you can't make the case that, though it's plagiarized, it's still hers.

streichorchester

05-26-2008, 08:11 PM

What's weird about her plagiarisms in the orchestral music and pop songs is that you get the impression there's a similar immoral intent when approaching either genre. Is it the same Kanno jumping back and forth between genres, or just the same directives? For example, if there was just copying going on in her orchestral music, you might be inclined to believe that it was just some rogue orchestrator strapped for ideas. But if the originality is consistently ambiguous across several genres, that's probably the only consistency Kanno has going for her.

NaotaM

05-27-2008, 12:27 AM

What you're talking about is something different from what we're talking about. You're talking about a piece of music where the influences are obvious, but rather than becoming derivative the composer does enough to make the piece, as you say, "unique."

That's what is happening with Kanno here. Her music is beautiful. But it's not hers. So you could make the case that, though it's plagiarized, you still like listening to it because it's pretty. But you can't make the case that, though it's plagiarized, it's still hers.

Of course I can. You seem to have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying I still like her occasional renditions of other songs (again people, her track list is in the thousands, her original work is the vast majority) because it still sounds great or "pretty", but because it stands on its own as a unique piece of music. The inspiration is obvious but I can clearly tell between the two. Opinions of whether it's good or not is irrelevant. It's whether she can take this existing melody and make it her own, and she absolutely succeeds in all cases.

Play Where Does This Ocean Go and Hyperballad at the same time, not back to back. The melody, percussion and ambience are strikingly similar but not note for note, and not because of "that extra little ting" in Ice's words. Not a single element of Bjork's song is ripped straight from the audio file and just plastered into Kanno's. With all the "remixes" and rehashes that succeed in making it on the radio these days, anyone can tell the difference. Illaria's vocals aren't "note for note" copies of Bjork's either. You simply think the way they sing sounds similar, which it does. Plenty of vocalists sound the same.

My point is "nearly identical", isn't identical. "Similar" isn't the same.

You use superficial differences between two archetypal stories as your example. What I'm saying is not so harmless. This would be like taking the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time; keeping Link, Zelda, and Ganon; keeping the Triforce; keeping the Gorons and the Zoras and Lon Lon Ranch and the Temple of Time and Saria and the Lost Woods and the locations of all the buildings and the locations of the Gold Skulltullas and the layouts of the dungeons and the sequence of the puzzles and the dialogue with the owl and the soldier in Kakariko Village who wants a mask for his son; but calling the world Boston instead of Hyrule.

...Master Quest, or for more of an equivalent to Kanno's work, Twilight Princess. And the superficial differences in the story don't matter as much as the nearly identical gameplay in both of my examples. The key is to expand it, improve it, differentiate it, make it unique. Banjo-Kazooie, Okami and Yoko Kanno all succeed in doing just that.

JudgeIto

05-27-2008, 02:23 AM

They both kind of suck.

tangotreats

05-27-2008, 01:37 PM

Why can people not tell the difference between artistic inspiration, and somebody taking a shortcut by pinching somebody else's idea?

Destai

05-28-2008, 10:17 PM

Of course I can. You seem to have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying I still like her occasional renditions of other songs (again people, her track list is in the thousands, her original work is the vast majority) because it still sounds great or "pretty", but because it stands on its own as a unique piece of music. The inspiration is obvious but I can clearly tell between the two. Opinions of whether it's good or not is irrelevant. It's whether she can take this existing melody and make it her own, and she absolutely succeeds in all cases.

Play Where Does This Ocean Go and Hyperballad at the same time, not back to back. The melody, percussion and ambience are strikingly similar but not note for note, and not because of "that extra little ting" in Ice's words. Not a single element of Bjork's song is ripped straight from the audio file and just plastered into Kanno's. With all the "remixes" and rehashes that succeed in making it on the radio these days, anyone can tell the difference. Illaria's vocals aren't "note for note" copies of Bjork's either. You simply think the way they sing sounds similar, which it does. Plenty of vocalists sound the same.

My point is "nearly identical", isn't identical. "Similar" isn't the same.

...Master Quest, or for more of an equivalent to Kanno's work, Twilight Princess. And the superficial differences in the story don't matter as much as the nearly identical gameplay in both of my examples. The key is to expand it, improve it, differentiate it, make it unique. Banjo-Kazooie, Okami and Yoko Kanno all succeed in doing just that."Yes, but she makes it 'her own' ", is a pretty weak argument for "performing" at the very most, an already existing song and taking credit for the entire thing. With the excuses you're making for her, she'd have to literally submit Bjorks own recording into the soundtrack in question and claim it her work to be considered to be in the wrong.

J. Peterman

05-29-2008, 02:49 AM

the one that sounds better

NaotaM

05-29-2008, 07:47 AM

"Yes, but she makes it 'her own' ", is a pretty weak argument for "performing" at the very most, an already existing song and taking credit for the entire thing. With the excuses you're making for her, she'd have to literally submit Bjorks own recording into the soundtrack in question and claim it her work to be considered to be in the wrong.

Certainly no weaker an argument than, say, refusing to believe she's a sincere artist and musician because she acted weird in an interview. *rolls eyes*

For the record, I'm not making an argument here. She emulates an existing melody and creates her own piece from it. Rip-off perhaps, but the songs are still different pieces on the whole. I've already stated that I don't care about anyones artistic hangups.

she'd have to literally submit Bjorks own recording into the soundtrack in question and claim it her work to be considered to be in the wrong

umm, exactly. :/

tangotreats

05-29-2008, 11:22 AM

NaotaM

05-29-2008, 07:34 PM

My friend, it is NOT a hangup, or indeed snobbery, to expect a true artist to behave morally and with respect for other people's effort, and indeed to have the ability to generate ideas themselves rather than stand on the shoulders of others.

It is simply that, in the world of music and art, purveyors are expected to adhere to certain standards, just as doctors adhere to the hypocratic oath.

With all due respect, it sure sounds like artistic hangups and grandstanding. What with the "true artist" crap flying around. I love it when people hold "Art" up on a heavenly pedestal, when it's really just down to whether you like a perticular drawing/sculpture/song or not. If it inspires you or touches you, good for you. But it's only you, only your opinion, your opinions are only important to you, and chances are good the artist doesn't really give a fuck either way.

Same with music. Music is just sound. If it sounds good to you, then enjoy it and fuck anyone else who has a problem with that.

If it doesn't bother you, fair enough - but that's your choice. Tha fact that you don't care, doesn't invalidate other people caring, or indeed doesn't make it unimportant - just unimportant in your eyes.

Here's why catch-22's don't work; they can be reversed infinitum and no one is truly right. It's your choice that you have these hangups. The fact that you care so much doesn't invalidate other people not caring, or indeed doesn't make it important - just important in your eyes.
Fun, isn't it?

With respect, that is ONE of countless arguments against her sincerity, and to illustrate your point you have quoted the most insignificant, silly one you could find, ignoring the others.

I used that argument because it was HIS, and I couldn't resist pointing out the hilarious irony of people making stupid arguments critizing others for making stupid arguments.

As for these "countless arguments against her sincerity", I'm afraid I'll have to go back to my previous, apperantly infallible gambit of "Prove it." And I'm afraid baseless, jaded speculation doesn't count as "fact."

The point is, even discussing the interview behaviour... It is painfully obvious that her behaviour is as a result of her manufactured media personality. There is no room for that kind of fakery in the genre of music.

This part is really fucking funny. Disregarding the fact that it's already silly and nonsensical, I really love it when people insist the personality of this person they're already biased against and have never met is just so fake, especially in this day and age where attenion-seeking caricatures like Marilyn Manson, Fiona Apple and Weird Al thrive. Get over yourself.

And before you reply, "Prove it." Otherwise, your view, opinions and statements remain just that instead of cold, hard facts, and if isn't fact, I don't give two shits about it.

streichorchester

05-29-2008, 09:10 PM

Certainly no weaker an argument than, say, refusing to believe she's a sincere artist and musician because she acted weird in an interview. *rolls eyes*

I don't think anyone said she wasn't sincere because she acted weird, more that it's hard to believe it wasn't all an act when everything about her image and work seems fabricated. For example, Kanno (or her people) wants us to not only believe that she doesn't listen to Elliot Goldenthal, but that she can compose and orchestrate singlehandedly as well as the highly trained Goldenthal, Goldenthal's music, but credited to herself. That's one instance of Kanno being insincere.

As for these "countless arguments against her sincerity", I'm afraid I'll have to go back to my previous, apperantly infallible gambit of "Prove it." And I'm afraid baseless, jaded speculation doesn't count as "fact."

We are being lead to believe Kanno is a master orchestrator. This great talent. But since she still needs to plagiarize here and there, that alone nullifies the talent aspect in most people's eyes. Kanno has deceived us. She apparently worked hard to write and orchestrate the music all by herself, but then threw it all away when she couldn't be bothered to create something original. She credits herself with music that does not belong to her. Even if it's only half of the time, it's still a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch. If you listen to one track and know it's plagiarized, how can you listen to the next and not wonder if it is as well? How can you trust that she is being original when you know for a fact she isn't always?

So yes, we're probably going to be biased when we examine her personality, her biography, her interviews, etc. That's what you get for being a deceiver and a liar. You lose the trust of others. No one is going to think you are being sincere. The only reason you aren't as skeptical of Kanno, NaotaM, is because that bond of trust between you and Kanno hasn't been broken yet.

Oh yeah, you can't ask someone to prove a known liar is lying. When someone lies all the time, the onus is on them to prove when they are being sincere.

Destai

05-29-2008, 10:22 PM

Certainly no weaker an argument than, say, refusing to believe she's a sincere artist and musician because she acted weird in an interview. *rolls eyes*

For the record, I'm not making an argument here. She emulates an existing melody and creates her own piece from it. Rip-off perhaps, but the songs are still different pieces on the whole. I've already stated that I don't care about anyones artistic hangups.

umm, exactly. :/That was a comment I passed on her in response to the revelations that have come up about her in this thread. Really, there's no need to take a shot at me because I don't think your point about her holds.

Ryusuke

05-30-2008, 06:39 AM

I like both of those composers. But, Yoko Kanno's soundtrack for Cowboy Bebop pretty much won it for me. She possesses much versatility in her music. But, since the voting is closed, I can't vote for her. ^^

arthurgolden

05-30-2008, 07:45 AM

My better instincts are telling me not to jump back into this. But, at least, here's more evidence of plagiarism. The first link provides a simple, easily digestible anthology of obviously stolen Kanno songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOy3AuB5PtI
http://jeffreyatw.livejournal.com/436793.html
http://www.hellgateguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3128

A lot of the evidence is unsettling. And it does show that we who have been arguing she's a plagiarist are not lonely high art grandstanders (disregarding the ridiculousness of that point). Apparently, there are quite a few people who have noticed this tendency in Kanno over the years.

streichorchester

05-30-2008, 08:41 AM

arthurgolden

05-30-2008, 08:59 AM

What's always impressed me about that list the guy posted at chudahs-corner is the variety he found that were dead on: the Willoughby rip in Napple Tale and Bartok's Romanian Dances in Escaflowne alone require extremely attentive listening.

The problem with these lists, however, is that sometimes each entry is just not a big enough rip-off to get worked up over. For example, if you take the instrumentation and change the melody, as in the Bartok piece, it's perfectly legitimate, even encouraged in many cases (see Hollywood.) It's not the most original approach to composing, but it's common.

Another problem is that we might be becoming a bit overeager to call plagiarism on some tracks that only carry a passing familiarity. I know I was guilty of this when I said Moon from Turn A Gundam sounded like Holst's Somerset Rhapsody, but in the end I was just grasping at straws trying to find answers. Maybe Moon is a great original piece after all.

Absolutely, and based on what I've read, no one here has presented an argument based on superficial similarities between two pieces of music out of overzealousness (although, admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread). It would be ridiculous to say that every piece of music Yoko Kanno made is plagiarized. Some examples would be homages (as is probably the case with some of the examples in those links I posted). Some would be unintentional (again, as is probably the case with some of the examples in the links I posted). What's worth noting are the times when the similarities are too significant, when rhythm, instrumentation, melody, and song structure all conspire together to create something that is recognizable as something else--when what is created is not unique, not a homage, but a rip-off. That happens, based on what I've heard now, a lot in her music. For me, there has to be a line between homage and plagiarism. "Unique" should mean what it means: "being without like or equal," not "strikingly similar to something else that already exists, but different in a few ways." If a composer plagiarizes, I have to look at that composer with a grain of salt thereafter. I think that's all we're saying.

tangotreats

05-30-2008, 09:50 AM

With all due respect, it sure sounds like artistic hangups and grandstanding. What with the "true artist" crap flying around. I love it when people hold "Art" up on a heavenly pedestal, when it's really just down to whether you like a perticular drawing/sculpture/song or not. If it inspires you or touches you, good for you. But it's only you, only your opinion, your opinions are only important to you, and chances are good the artist doesn't really give a fuck either way.

I thought we were beginning to get along, but obviously not.

For some people, art *is* on a pedestal - it's the singular most important part of their life. As I believe I have indicated several times, you're entitled not to see it that way, or to think of it as "just sound" but what you're NOT entitled to do is tell people they're snobs, have hangups, are elisists, etc, because they think of it differently.

In one breath, you shout at me because I don't subscribe to your viewpoint, and in the next, you say that a man's opinion is of no importance to anybody but the man himself and they don't matter to anybody else. Indeed, you basically suggest that anybody who can't PROVE his viewpoint correct (against YOUR standards of proof) is a fool.

One of the reasons music has become so commercial and artless today is precisely because 95% of people say "fuck it, who cares" - it is, and always will be, a case of lowest common denominator forcing other people down to their level.

This really is hypocrasy, and on top of that, it's really short sighted as well.

Here's why catch-22's don't work; they can be reversed infinitum and no one is truly right. It's your choice that you have these hangups. The fact that you care so much doesn't invalidate other people not caring, or indeed doesn't make it important - just important in your eyes.
Fun, isn't it?

No, it's not fun, because there's one rule for you and one rule for everybody else.

I entirely agree - I care, you don't care. My issue is, once again, with the fact that you seem to be saying I am a faulty person for caring. As borne out by your repeated use of words like elisist, snob, hang-up, etc.

Like it or not, music IS art, and art IS important to humanity. Feel free to enjoy it for what it is, of course - but why on earth are you suggesting that a given thing only posesses qualities you care about? Could it be that there is more to it than you're interested in?

As for these "countless arguments against her sincerity", I'm afraid I'll have to go back to my previous, apperantly infallible gambit of "Prove it." And I'm afraid baseless, jaded speculation doesn't count as "fact."

And I'm going to have to go back to MY, entirely infallible gambit of, "Why should I?"

Will you stop accusing me of things. Throwing around this range of offensive terminology, seemingly directed exclusively at me, is, I repeat, most disheartening.

For proof - please see above. If you don't see the proof as proof, accept it and move on. Don't keep pressing people to prove something to you when you are clearly biased and unwilling to entertain any viewpoint except your own.

This part is really fucking funny. Disregarding the fact that it's already silly and nonsensical, I really love it when people insist the personality of this person they're already biased against and have never met is just so fake, especially in this day and age where attenion-seeking caricatures like Marilyn Manson, Fiona Apple and Weird Al thrive. Get over yourself.

Why in God's name do you think I'm biased? Because I acknowledge their flaws?

As I and several people have pointed out before:

Kanno's personality is, in a lot of people's opinion, a manufactured marketing drive. Don't say prove it, because a) I have better things to do, and b) you can't prove anything - you have to go with gut instinct. Personality itself isn't the issue. The issue is that she isn't even honest about who she is, so how can anybody believe in her music?

And, once again, I'll say, stop insulting me.

I don't mind defending my position in this argument, but having to defend myself against personal attacks is something I don't expect to have to do in a civilised discussion.

And before you reply, "Prove it." Otherwise, your view, opinions and statements remain just that instead of cold, hard facts, and if isn't fact, I don't give two shits about it.

That's your line, my friend - not mine.

And whether you care or not, believe or not, understand or not - makes no difference to the way things are.

Example:

<Me> Kanno is a plagiarist.
<You> She categorically IS NOT. I've done research.
<Me> But she actually is - it's proven.
<You> You're an elitist snob. Prove it to me or you're an idiot.
<Me> Fine, here's proof.
<You> Um... Ok, she IS a plagiarist.

Why on earth does that conversation not go...

<Me> Kanno is a plagiarist
<You> I've not found that myself.
<Me> Some of it is pretty shameless.
<You> I'm interested in what you think - would you be able to show me some evidence so I can judge it myself?
<Me> Sure!
<You> Crikey, that's terrible!

Point is, your entire style is confrontational.

Michiko

05-31-2008, 01:02 AM

tangotreats

06-01-2008, 07:25 PM

I would never expect to find such a heated discussion about the line between originality and plagiarism from searching for Okami, but I digress.

We live in an age where taking one person's musical ideas is commonplace. Not just commonplace, but now seemingly a part of the generation's musical identity. Composers taking entire sections of music from one another, the hottest song from 30-3 years ago being "sampled" for the next big hip hop song, it goes on and on in an unending cycle. It's come to the point where the 'hey this sounds like that song I heard a while ago' factor is key is attracting people and (the thing they're hoping for) sales. Is it original? Was this entirely from this person's thoughts and feelings? Is it something that's genuine and honestly their own? In today's business and bottom line focused age those questions no longer hold meaning. Only if it will make them money. If it does, they're given free reign to lift as much of another piece as needed, or at least that's how it seems.

Sadly, that's all completely true. And, I fear, because of lowering standards, the fact that it goes unchallenged, and the fact that everything is driven by money.

If the public stood up and said, "Hang on, this is horseshit." and voted with their wallets, things would get better. But as long as people are still willing to hand out money in exchange for prefabricated crap, the folk who produce it will continue to do so, and will see just how much they can get away with.

Sadly, society today OPRESSES people who are embittered at lowering standards and dumbing down, insults their "elisist" or "snobby" nature, and goes on consuming the rubbish.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why there is so much junk in the world today. Nobody is willing to stand up for it any more, and the people who do get ripped to shreds for doing nothing but respecting the past and wishing it could influence the future.

tangotreats

06-03-2008, 06:58 PM

Macross Frontier:
Well, it's out. Alas, only 20 minutes of this album is orchestral, but what music! Nobody (NOBODY) can deny that as an aural experience, this stuff is absolutely magnificent - same old Kanno; superb orchestrations, confident flourishes, etc - every piece is a mini symphony. However, one has to temper such enthusiasm with the obvious problems one finds in these pieces... ;)

As my experience is orchestral, I'll ignore the other pop-oriented tracks and concentrate on the symphonic ones:

1. Frontier 2059: As has been discussed previously, this starts promisingly but then drifts off into a loosely-shrouded arrangement of Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherezade. At 2:37, however, we hear what I have come to interpret as Kanno's trademark sound, in the French horns.

5. Vital Force: I detect no plagiarism.

11. Big Boys: What in the bloody hell is she doing? You spend your career ripping off the likes of Janacek, Korngold, Silvestri, Goldsmith... and then you steal from HANS ZIMMER? 'Nuff said - the entire track is lifted from Pirates Of The Caribbean.

17. TALLY HO!: Oh Christ, there it is again at 3:52 - although I have to say, Kanno does manage to make previously synth-drenched Zimmer tripe sound pretty good in an orchestral setting. But still...

18. The Target: This reminds me of something but I can't put my finger on what. Streichorchester?

19. Bajura: Hello, Jean Sibelius - the first half is clearly based on the Finlandia symphonic poem.

22. Take Off: Once again reminds me of a dozen different things but not in any serious way. It's more a feeling of vague familiarity than of outright thievery.

Anybody have any further thoughts on what I may have missed? :)

streichorchester

06-03-2008, 08:18 PM

I'll have it in a bit, but from watching up to episode 9 I've heard:

Sibelius's Finlandia
Debussy's Nuages
Ravel's - Daphnis et Chloe (Kanno's favourite)
Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (March)
John Williams's Rebel theme from Star Wars
Hans Zimmer's Pirates of the Carribean

...and a battle theme that reminds me of the theme from Dune or the Elemental Gearbolt OST. Is that the one that sounds familiar to you?

streichorchester

06-04-2008, 12:20 AM

Here's my notes from just listening to it once, starting and stopping when needed. Take it with a grain of salt since it's mainly just conjecture, not accusations:

Track 01
1:11 - Debussy's Nuages
1:53 - morphs into a play on Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe
2:06 - Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
2:27 - this build up sounds familiar, Star Wars maybe?

Track 05
Yep, I can't find anything in this except allusions to other Kanno pieces in a similar style, like the xylophone in Macross Plus. Great track.

Track 07
2:24 - Kanno's used this harmonic progression before, I think in end credits for the Turn A Gundam movie

Track 09
Also original to my ears.

Track 10
Not too sure about this one. I keep getting the feeling I've heard that "loo-lay" thing before.

Track 11
Kanno's actually pretty good with her sources in the past in terms of a well-rounded selection of both classical and film scores that not many would recognize. I wonder why she felt compelled to reduce herself to such a modern fad here unless she was specifically asked to use Pirates as a temp track.

Track 12
The dotted trumpet line actually reminds me of Back to the Future, but it's not. :)

Track 13
Some parts remind me of the march from Verdi's Aida or something. Maybe even just the Aquarius track from Sousei no Aquarion.

Track 17
0:00 - wow, the main motif seems to be taken from Dance of Curse.
0:20 - getting some Shostakovich vibes here
1:50 - is this a quote from Cape Fear?
2:36 - I wonder if this would have been Kanno's usual choral cue, because it's got the ostinato going with the punctuated phrases. I think she's also quoting Shostakovich's DSCH motif, but transposed to another key.
3:20 - what the... is that Broughton's Rescuers Down Under? I thought I heard that motif in an earlier track.
3:50 - well, at least she's motivically consistent here, but yeah, that's Broughton's RESCUERS DOWN UNDER at 4:11!!!

Track 18
0:07 - starts off with Williams's rebel theme
0:20 - Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (punctuated with Battle of the Heroes?) but it could be something else
1:02 - Felicity from Turn A Gundam, what are you doing here?
1:37 - this part onward sounds a lot like Williams's style, not just because of the Rebel theme
2:10 - kind of reminds be of Horner's Star Trek scores
2:30 - this theme is very familiar, like it could be Dune or Elemental Gearbolt
2:42 - someone is really good at this, it's like a merging of Williams and Silvestri's action styles
3:21 - Star Wars interlude?
4:27 - there's those Kanno chords
4:44 - kind of reminds me of the opening of Pocahontas
5:33 - The Matrix?

Track 19
0:00 - Sibelius's Finlandia
0:45 - awesome motif in winds
1:03 - Wow, is this like Kanno's version of Also Sprach Zarathustra? This slow horn-trombone movement reminds me of Holst or Vaughan Williams. Very familiar.

Track 21
Hmm, this theme is a lot like Kaoru Wada's theme for Kagome from Inuyasha. Kaoru Wada actually writes a lot of themes like this, sort of a mixture between old English medieval folk dances and Japanese shakuhachi music.

Track 22
0:00 - I guess this is the "Rescuers" in its entirety.
0:33 - the finale from Morricone's The Untouchables?
0:41 - Horner's end credits from Wrath of Khan? indeed!

This has become quite the thread-hijack.

tangotreats

06-04-2008, 01:08 AM

Track 01
1:11 - Debussy's Nuages
1:53 - morphs into a play on Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe
2:06 - Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
2:27 - this build up sounds familiar, Star Wars maybe?

Missed the Debussy - thank you, that's where I heard that line before... Slightly different but more than slightly the same.

Daphnis et Chloe: Eeeh, true... Chordally similar, definitely.

Star Wars: I don't know, it wasn't ringing my Williams bell, but who knows...

Kanno's actually pretty good with her sources in the past in terms of a well-rounded selection of both classical and film scores that not many would recognize. I wonder why she felt compelled to reduce herself to such a modern fad here unless she was specifically asked to use Pirates as a temp track.

I don't know... This is about Kanno's ONLY rip so far that I could actually believe your average person would be familiar with. Like it or lump it, EVERYBODY knows this piece, and everybody knows this (God-awful) style. Surely she's got to be called out for this. Pinching bits of Korngold and The Omen is one thing, but stealing a whole theme from a very high profile score of only 12 months vintage, that's going to get noticed even moreso than usual...

Track 17
0:00 - wow, the main motif seems to be taken from Dance of Curse.
0:20 - getting some Shostakovich vibes here
1:50 - is this a quote from Cape Fear?
2:36 - I wonder if this would have been Kanno's usual choral cue, because it's got the ostinato going with the punctuated phrases. I think she's also quoting Shostakovich's DSCH motif, but transposed to another key.
3:20 - what the... is that Broughton's Rescuers Down Under? I thought I heard that motif in an earlier track.
3:50 - well, at least she's motivically consistent here, but yeah, that's Broughton's RESCUERS DOWN UNDER at 4:11!!!

Dance Of Curse: I got that too, though I thought it was sufficiently fresh-sounding to maybe be a stylistic trait rather than a conscious theft.

Shostakovich: Not sure, did you have any piece in mind?

Cape Fear: Nice little riff on it, definitely...

Choir: It seems a little harsh for something she'd give to the choir - inevitably the obligatory choral cue ends up sounding like Carmina Burana or The Omen. You never know though...

Broughton: DAMMIT, what the hell is that doing in there? I missed that - ridiculous as it's stylistically Broughton moment, even if you didn't know Rescuers but you did know, say Silverado or Lost in Space, you'd pick up the similarity. It's very jarring going from Zimmer to Broughton in the space of one bar...

Track 18
0:07 - starts off with Williams's rebel theme
0:20 - Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (punctuated with Battle of the Heroes?) but it could be something else
1:02 - Felicity from Turn A Gundam, what are you doing here?
1:37 - this part onward sounds a lot like Williams's style, not just because of the Rebel theme
2:10 - kind of reminds be of Horner's Star Trek scores
2:30 - this theme is very familiar, like it could be Dune or Elemental Gearbolt
2:42 - someone is really good at this, it's like a merging of Williams and Silvestri's action styles
3:21 - Star Wars interlude?
4:27 - there's those Kanno chords
4:44 - kind of reminds me of the opening of Pocahontas
5:33 - The Matrix?

Rebel Theme: Definitely feeling Star Wars in there. I don't know why I didn't write that one down because I *did* spot it.

Berlioz: Yup, thank you again.

TAG: Christ almighty... Absolutely right again.

Williams at 1:37: More of a stylistic thing rather than a theft, but definitely smelling like Williams. Though at 1:57 back comes Star Wars again verbatim.

Horner: Tenuous... but I can definitely hear what you mean.

Silvestri / Williams hybrid: I'm not getting any Silvestri here... Did you have anything in mind?

Dune: Yup, there's the main theme... Incredibly diverse thievery! Then again, she's had a dip into Blade Runner before, so it must be a genre thing...

Kanno chords: I absolutely *adore* that sound - and here it's also thematically consistent, going back to the very first track.

Pochahontas: Not familar with it - I'll take your word for it.

The Matrix: Yes, absolutely a Matrix rythym.

INDIANA JONES: Track 18, 3:44, a little riff on Marion's theme?

Phew... This is scary stuff!

Oddly enough, in the midst of all this, I think I *am* detecting just a slight maturing of technique, though... Would you agree? It all just seems to be just a tad more assured and confident, and consistent, like a Kanno *style* (a real style, not just "Oh, that's Kanno because it sounds like fifty other things!") is trying to bleed through...

However, to my ears, it remains technically brilliant, but oddly soul-less...

streichorchester

06-04-2008, 02:44 AM

Shostakovich: Not sure, did you have any piece in mind?

The semitone movement back and forth reminds me of of the Symphony No. 11. I'm just writing down what immediately comes to mind when I press stop and play it back in my head.

Broughton: DAMMIT, what the hell is that doing in there? I missed that - ridiculous as it's stylistically Broughton moment

The only thing not stylistically like Broughton there is that it isn't a 50 note long theme. :)

Silvestri / Williams hybrid: I'm not getting any Silvestri here... Did you have anything in mind?

For a while I was almost positive that 3:35 onward in Exodus from Sousei no Aquarion was a take off of Silvestri's Van Helsing score (Track 8 Transylvanian Horses 2:42 onward) and this part in MF reminds me of Silvestri's ostinato style from Eraser or Van Helsing.

Berlioz: Yup, thank you again.

This can't be the first use of Berlioz for an action cue like this, again, sounds like something Silvestri would write.

Horner: Tenuous... but I can definitely hear what you mean.

I'm thinking less Wrath of Khan now, and more Mask of Zorro. I'll check.

Dune: Yup, there's the main theme... Incredibly diverse thievery! Then again, she's had a dip into Blade Runner before, so it must be a genre thing...

I'm almost positive I've heard this theme used before, not just in Dune, but in some video game from the 90s or perhaps a cartoon from the 80s or early 90s. Obviously someone else might have ripped off the Dune theme, but it sounds a lot more like this version I've heard elsewhere.

Kanno chords: I absolutely *adore* that sound - and here it's also thematically consistent, going back to the very first track.

It actually reminds me a lot of Wrath of Khan (or Krull, for that matter.)

Pochahontas: Not familar with it - I'll take your word for it.

I checked the cue (Pocahontas - Track 02 Ship at Sea and it has a similar ostinato with a G pedal at 1:01) and it's just a case of my near-perfect pitch memory kicking in. :) It's also one of my favourite Menken tracks so I have it committed to memory.

Speaking of my perfect pitch memory, 3:21 of Track 18 is REALLY reminiscent of 7 minutes into Battle of the Mutara Nebula from Wrath of Khan. It's the Bb-A I'm remembering.

INDIANA JONES: Track 18, 3:44, a little riff on Marion's theme?

Damn right. I was thinking Star Wars, but yeah, it's more Indy.

Oddly enough, in the midst of all this, I think I *am* detecting just a slight maturing of technique, though... Would you agree? It all just seems to be just a tad more assured and confident, and consistent, like a Kanno *style* (a real style, not just "Oh, that's Kanno because it sounds like fifty other things!") is trying to bleed through...

The action cues are becoming much more connected, whereas previously her work seemed schizophrenic with juxtaposed styles placed one after the other. I'm noticing a lot of held notes in the melody (for example the Berlioz motif) with other instruments chiming in like birds. There is still a tendency to rely on ostinatos, but it's becoming more Williams-like and less Silvestri-like. She's not afraid to let the melody carry her out of the ostinato instead of sticking to the rhythm. But the triplet rhythms are really driving everything along as they did in Aquarion and cues like Warriors from Brainpowerd.

However, to my ears, it remains technically brilliant, but oddly soul-less...

I think it's a step back to the complex nature of Turn A Gundam and Brainpowerd's militaristic styles, not as "clean" or simple as Sousei no Aquarion and Escaflowne, but more connected and smooth. Aside from the Star Wars reference, moments like 1:00 in Tally Ho remind me of John Williams's style which is too complex for the likes of Aquarion.

There are three orchestral tracks I can identify as missing from this OST, one of which I was hoping to point out bears a resemblance to The Sound of Music, and the other is that Dune theme with a neat 16th note ostinato in the horns, and another is the orchestral version of the OP theme with the theme in the violins.

edit: ...four missing tracks. I forgot this victory cue that reminds me of Williams's Hook.

streichorchester

06-04-2008, 05:14 AM

I don't know... This is about Kanno's ONLY rip so far that I could actually believe your average person would be familiar with. Like it or lump it, EVERYBODY knows this piece, and everybody knows this (God-awful) style. Surely she's got to be called out for this. Pinching bits of Korngold and The Omen is one thing, but stealing a whole theme from a very high profile score of only 12 months vintage, that's going to get noticed even moreso than usual...

I just remembered, Kanno wouldn't be the first Japanese composer to use Pirates as a template: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpygWOwNh_8

streichorchester

06-08-2008, 06:03 AM

Track 01
1:11 - Debussy's Nuages
1:53 - morphs into a play on Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe
2:06 - Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
2:27 - this build up sounds familiar, Star Wars maybe?

As it turns out this track is mainly based on the ALTERNATE opening cue from David Arnold's Independence Day, hence why this build up sounded so familiar:

Macross Frontier track 01 - http://jeremyrobson.com/frontier6.mp3
Independence Day Main Title (alternate) - http://jeremyrobson.com/id4.mp3

What is Kanno doing with the expanded bootleg listening to alternate cues?

edit: Track 18 The Target is also based on the last few minutes of Evacuation Firestorm from ID4, including the "Matrix" part, Base Attack, Canyon Chase, etc. note for note in many cases. I guess this makes my earlier analysis moot since yes, this is all ID4. No Williams, no Berlioz, no Horner.

drajin

06-09-2008, 10:25 PM

i'm not very familiar with Kanno yoko, but if the poll were between uematsu, kajiura yuki, and Kawai Kenji, I'll choose KAWAI KENJI. Oh he compose anime like Fate/stay night, seirei no moribito, higurashi, Death Note (Live-action only).

I'll be starting to watch Ghost in the Shell later, then I'll know how her music is like :)

tangotreats

06-09-2008, 10:30 PM

Kenji Kawai sends me right to sleep with his uninspired, repetitive, ridiculously simplistic rhythms and boring arrangements... But at least he's crap all on his own... ;)

drajin

06-10-2008, 10:02 AM

no need to go that far la. Cant believe even here have someone rude. To me, Kajiura Yuki, Kawai Kenji, & Kanno Yoko are the top composer in Japan. Nobuo is good too, but he lacks diversity. His music is more to sentimentals, which is great in his own way.

tangotreats

06-10-2008, 09:31 PM

Who's being rude? Yet another case of "your opinion is different to mine, therefore you are rude / wrong / an asshole / all of the above".

I know some people like Kawai (who is a man, by the way, for the benefit of the poster who referred to him as "she") and obviously they're entitled to. I think he's crap. As a matter of fact, I think he's written some of the most consistently dull, artistically void music of our time. That's my opinion. I did, however, point out that as much as I hate Kawai, he succeeds where Kanno fails for writing his OWN music in his OWN style.

I also positively despise the genre-hopping Kajiura. Take some boring, uninspired orchestral music, stick an electronica / jungle rhythym over it, repeat for 70 minutes = your typical Kajiura album. I just don't like it. Also only my opinion. I accept that the most popular kind of music isn't necessarily the best *music* from an artistic point of view, and that average Joe responds to percussion, electronica, beat, rock/metal influences more than he does to pure orchestral complexity. It's a great shame as Average Joe's uncomplicated taste is killing the art. It's already happened in Hollywood. And, once again, as much as I hate Kajiura... SHE writes that stuff, with her own two hands. It sounds like her - it's her style, her technique, it comes from her brain. By that argument alone she exceeds Kanno's artistry.

Anyway, I won't get any further into how much I hate Kawai because this is about Kanno...

drajin

06-11-2008, 12:50 PM

You could've at least say it in a nicer way. i know it's yur opinion, at least mentioned that. You did mention that in your last post about yuki, though you dont like her, you did said something positive, which shows that you dont hate things radically or fanatically, which is a good thing. Anyway, enough about my non-sense. I just dont join a thread to condemn it, unless if it was suppose to be that way, such as "Who hates Yoko?" or "anti-yoko thread" like that.

Back to uematsu vs kanno. uematsu is a game composer. yoko is for anime (though she wrote some for games, non of them are major ones, most of her credit are from the animes). So you cant really compare between them. anime and game music are very different indeed. If you insist on comparing, you cant compare it by simply listen to its soundtrack. The right way (should be, i think) is to; for uematsu, play his games; for yoko, watch her animes. There you can really tell whether her soundtrack is good or not. Simply, listen to their music at the proper channel.

I played final fantasy, and listened to yoko's soundtrack. uematsu's sounds better FOR NOW. But my vote is not on uematsu yet. I just have to watch the anime to find out her true quality work. However, I watched Jin-roh. At that time i didn't know she wrote the music for it, but nothing great about the bgm also. So, yoko's money is on Ghost in the Shell. Haven't watch it yet, but will in a short time.

Anyway, this thread is about which is the better composer, but didn't mention in what term. So, i assume to be how good their music are. I ignore any of their background, childhood life, originality, sincerity, blah blah blah. I just listen to their music at the proper channel and have my word later. :)

tangotreats

06-11-2008, 04:14 PM

Kanno didn't score Jin-Roh. Hajime Mizoguchi (at the time, Kanno's husband) did. Kanno was pianist, I believe, at the recording session.

Anyway, this thread is about which is the better composer, but didn't mention in what term. So, i assume to be how good their music are. I ignore any of their background, childhood life, originality, sincerity, blah blah blah. I just listen to their music at the proper channel and have my word later.

How else can one possibly judge it?

Music can be functional perfectly well in situ and still be shitty music.

Music can totally wreck a game/film/anime and still be truly great music.

If I take a hypothetical scene in which a mother is being told that her baby has miscarried, and I score it with The Maple Leaf Rag - it's inappropriate, not fit for purpose, and in that context would actually be very offensive. It would be making fun of the character, disrespecting her pain.

Conversely, if I take an example from any number of commercialised, poorer quality film scores of recent years - let's use Iron Man as an example. The music serves its purpose (on a peripheral level) in the film but, divorced from that context, it is crummy music. For somebody who responds to music as an emotional creature, a personality, it fails not only as music but also as a companion to the film. It does its job to the extent that you can still watch the movie, understand the story, and understand what the characters are feeling, but it provides no insight. Over the course of his career, Jerry Goldsmith propped up so many bad films with good music because he knew the films themselves weren't providing in some areas and so he had to compensate.

Good music can not work, whilst bad music can.

Therefore, we have to judge it differently because it becomes less about the composer of the piece in question, and more about the sensitivity and intelligence with which it was worked into the film.

If the question was, "Which composer more adequately provides support for the images on screen?" I would answer Uematsu, despite Kanno's music being more impressive in the sense of a listening experience. Being constantly being reminded of other pieces of music (in some cases from other films) takes me right out of the experience. As a very musical person it penetrates me more than most people. When I'm watching Escaflowne, and suddenly I am hearing The Omen, it takes me out of Escaflowne drops me right into a different, 30 year old film - because that music is so indelibly linked with its original source. If I'm watching Aquarion and suddenly I hear Titus, once again, the music has spoiled the moment for me by virtue of being out of place.

To most people, music is something that goes unnoticed on anything more than a peripheral sensory level - it's a sound in the background that confirms or denies the emotion suggested by the actors or the scene. To these people, it doesn't matter, because their evaluation of the music is exclusively related to whether or not it sticks out like a sore thumb. If it sounds pretty relevant to the scene, and isn't particularly offensive to their sensibilities, it has fulfilled its purpose and it is great music. The composer did their job and that is all was needed.

To people for whom music is a more integral experience, this is a problem, and this is where one begins to evaluate music on an artistic level and not merely a functional one. To me, the score of a film or television series is a character with a personality, just as important as the actors or the story, and sometimes considerably moreso. The music can tell us something that the characters can't. It can provide us with information we're not getting from our interaction with the plot. It can back up and strengthen an emotion, or play against the expected one and create an entirely new emotion. That is the circumstance under which film music becomes art, and where it can severely compromise the effectiveness of the film/television series for which it was written, if it is not treated with that gravitas.

Who's best?
Artistry: Uematsu.
Technical accomplishment: Kanno.
Fitting action: Uematsu.
Interesting music: Kanno.

Uematsu wins on the two most important functions of non-concert hall music. It works on screen and it can function as an individual entity rather than a medley of other people's ideas.

uematsu is a game composer. yoko is for anime (though she wrote some for games, non of them are major ones, most of her credit are from the animes). So you cant really compare between them. anime and game music are very different indeed. If you insist on comparing, you cant compare it by simply listen to its soundtrack. The right way (should be, i think) is to; for uematsu, play his games; for yoko, watch her animes. There you can really tell whether her soundtrack is good or not. Simply, listen to their music at the proper channel.

Once again, it depends on how you are evaluating the music. It doesn't matter whether it was written for a concert hall, a musical, a movie, a video game,an anime, a wedding, or a funeral. Its purpose is the same and the standards by which its quality is judged are also the same.

:)

streichorchester

06-11-2008, 06:21 PM

Well put, dannyfrench.

What do you think we're going to see from Kanno in the coming years? Is she going to continue dancing on the line that separates temp-tracking from "actionable" plagiarism? Is she going to start scoring Western films? Or will she simply be a name to cash in on until her CDs stop selling?

I keep expecting that at some point some orchestrator guy is going to come out of the woodwork and claim to be the one who wrote most of these orchestral pieces, probably demanding a bigger share of those sales. But orchestrating exclusively for Kanno's soundtracks and nothing else? It doesn't seem plausible unless orchestrating wasn't his primary career choice. Also, the Macross Frontier booklet says Kanno conducted the Warsaw sessions.

And unless I'm missing something, the ID4 main title cue she based Frontier 2059 on is the "alternate" one found only in the bootleg, right? I don't have the official release, but if that's true...

tangotreats

06-11-2008, 08:17 PM

What do you think we're going to see from Kanno in the coming years? Is she going to continue dancing on the line that separates temp-tracking from "actionable" plagiarism? Is she going to start scoring Western films? Or will she simply be a name to cash in on until her CDs stop selling?

There's no way in hell she'll ever score a Western movie - not in her established style, anyway. That sort of music just isn't welcome in Western cinema any more. Maybe it will become fashionable again in the future, and we'll be seeing more Broughtons and less Zimmers... Until then, though, I sincerely doubt Kanno will do *any* kind of work outside of Asia. Her orchestral music is exactly the kind of stuff that has directors and studio executives sweating with nervousness, and spotty teenage test audiences moaning about the ridiculously old fashioned music score. Then it gets rejected and replaced with Ramin Dwajadawaidaadji. Look at what happened when somebody dared to attempt a classically inspired, orchestrally complex score for a summer blockbuster. (Hint - Yared.)

J-Pop really doesn't function anywhere outside of Japan.

I expect she will continue exactly as she has been, until one of three events transpire:

a) She becomes so rich that she retires early.

b) She pushes a point too far, somebody files a plagiarism suit, wins, and that effectively ends her career.

c) Japan's musical taste changes and nobody wants her any more.

I keep expecting that at some point some orchestrator guy is going to come out of the woodwork and claim to be the one who wrote most of these orchestral pieces, probably demanding a bigger share of those sales. But orchestrating exclusively for Kanno's soundtracks and nothing else? It doesn't seem plausible unless orchestrating wasn't his primary career choice. Also, the Macross Frontier booklet says Kanno conducted the Warsaw sessions.

Think about it. If you're a skilled orchestrator, how *individual* is that style? Not at all. It's very, VERY clever, but in the end, it's textbook, incredibly dense complex orchestration. It takes a clever sod to do it, but *any* clever sod could emulate that sound.

If Frederic Talgorn, Joel McNeely can do a passable John Williams - one of the most distinctive sounding composers of all time, surely any old orchestrator could do Yoko Kanno.

Just a thought... Does this music sound like the work of a pissed off, embittered orchestrator who is being oppressed? Not to me... Whoever is doing it is absolutely loving every second of it. Every Kanno piece reminds me of that hyperactive over-arranged sound you used to get when a new composer got a big orchestra for the first time, and you could just hear "HOLY SHIT, DUDE! I HAVE ONE HUNDRED MUSICIANS HERE!!!!!!!!" coming through on every bar. The scores are so detailed, and contain so much that you could get away with omitting if you didn't really care... I can't really believe that the person doing this is unhappy with the situation...

On the other hand, the constant plagiarism could also be code for "HELLO!!! I'm trying to TELL you something here!"

The wide variety of Kanno's thefts scare the hell out of me - a lifetime film score fan, classical musical nerd, composer and arranger myself, and I miss half of them, and I'm completely not familiar with others. And I know that I can't orchestrate one hundredth as well as Kanno. This coming from somebody who never listens to music at home, and occasionally puts on a few CDs in the recording studio?

And unless I'm missing something, the ID4 main title cue she based Frontier 2059 on is the "alternate" one found only in the bootleg, right? I don't have the official release, but if that's true...

...then Kanno is dealing in stolen, bootlegged recordings of American film scores! As far as I know, the cue is indeed only an Alternate. To know it, you have to have the boot.

Perhaps Arnold nicked it off somebody else we haven't spotted yet?

streichorchester

06-11-2008, 09:35 PM

There's no way in hell she'll ever score a Western movie

I'm glad we agree on that. It's pretty frustrating to see people making the Williams comparison with her, as they did with Uematsu pre-Spirits Within, but in the end her style just doesn't translate anymore, which is pretty funny. She out-Westernizes the Westerners and we get stuck with Iron-Ramin.

She pushes a point too far, somebody files a plagiarism suit, wins, and that effectively ends her career.

Lawsuits never ended Horner's career early on and look where he is now. Scary, eh?

Japan's musical taste changes and nobody wants her any more.

If you have to give Kanno credit for something, adaptability would be it. If Japan's music charts all of a sudden shifted towards a preference for rap idioms, you can bet she'd be the first one ripping off 50-cent, DMX, Jay-Z, etc. Gabriella Robin is going to have her work cut out for her.

Joel McNeely can do a passable John Williams

Of all the Western orchestrators I know, I'd have suspected McNeely was a sure bet for someone working on Kanno's scores, as impossible as that might actually be. Shadows of the Empire and Young Indiana Jones (the only two McNeely scores I'm familiar with) are loaded to the brim with Kanno-style classical plagiarisms (Ravel, Prokofiev, Mahler, Walton), and not just because they owe much to Williams in the first place. :)

And then there's that awesome Destruction of Xizor's palace track where McNeely beats Williams to the gun with the chanting chorus, which is original by my ears, and probably more so than the Dvorak-rooted Duel of the Fates. I think it's a brilliant example of musical prolepsis along with Kanno's Escaflowne which was also written around that time (both 1996?.)

But McNeely, Horner, and William Stromberg for that matter... orchestrators of their caliber just tend to walk the line of plagiarism for some reason, and Kanno seems to be no different. Maybe that's something to be said for the composer-orchestrator relationship. Energy spent on coming up with catchy themes is energy not spent on making the orchestra sound great.

tangotreats

06-11-2008, 10:39 PM

I'm glad we agree on that. It's pretty frustrating to see people making the Williams comparison with her, as they did with Uematsu pre-Spirits Within, but in the end her style just doesn't translate anymore, which is pretty funny. She out-Westernizes the Westerners and we get stuck with Iron-Ramin.

I pray to God the cycle completes and we can return to film music the way it should be. You don't need a beat. You don't need electronics. The large symphony orchestra is the most expressive, powerful instrument ever created. Why in God's name are people constantly "augmenting" it with things that sound like total rubbish?

Lawsuits never ended Horner's career early on and look where he is now. Scary, eh?

This is true... However, look at where he is indeed -- barely working any more. Though that's nothing to do with the lawsuits - it's to do with the fact that Horner - asshole though he is - remains rooted in the old-school, where melody and orchestration are important and bashing you over the head with electric guitars and shitty syncopated synth drum beats aren't...

But McNeely, Horner, and William Stromberg for that matter... orchestrators of their caliber just tend to walk the line of plagiarism for some reason, and Kanno seems to be no different. Maybe that's something to be said for the composer-orchestrator relationship. Energy spent on coming up with catchy themes is energy not spent on making the orchestra sound great.

I suppose this is because, by and large, you learn to orchestrate film scores by listening to orchestrated film scores. The moment you let an orchestrator out on his own, you find that his skills are exclusively in manipulating the orchestra but he has literally no idea how to be original. Another one to mention - Conrad Pope. Superb - absolutely SUPERB - orchestrator - but listen to his original film music. Second rate Robert Folk, third rate James Horner, fourth rate Jerry Goldsmith. All arranged to the hilt for the customary 25,000 piece orchestra but absolutely bugger-all else going for it.

Interesting example: The David Arnold / Nicholas Dodd relationship. Everybody - including myself - was completely convinced that Arnold's orchestral music was 97% Dodd. Then Dodd gets some assignments on his own... What do we get? Something that sounds like David Arnold ASLEEP ON THE JOB. Arnold is an idiot with no musical training, but he has this music in his mind - and Dodd puts it on paper. Now there's a composer-orchestrator relationship that has some claim to exist.

I'm glad we agree on that. It's pretty frustrating to see people making the Williams comparison with her, as they did with Uematsu pre-Spirits Within, but in the end her style just doesn't translate anymore, which is pretty funny. She out-Westernizes the Westerners and we get stuck with Iron-Ramin.

Indeed - it's a testament to the Japanese methodology that this kind of music DOES translate, it DOES sell, and people love it. TV dramas have orchestral scores - proper ones. The scores have themes. The composer gets a credit at the front of the show. Ok, so there's nobody quite like Kanno anywhere in the world that I'm aware of, but in Japan there are certainly dozens of composers getting rich and famous, writing the kind of music that would get you fired in the West. Really sad, but the way I see it, if the Japanese can keep up the standard in the face of all the Iron Man / POTC rubbish coming out in the West, then when we've had enough of the crap, we'll be able to say, "Look at this... Wow, we could write scores like this!" and it begins all over again. Every film music renaissance is 20-25 years long.

Just imagine what you'd get though... Imagine that Western film music still mattered. Imagine that you could hire Kanno and say, "Give me an orchestral score. Have as many musicians as you like, don't worry about the money, there is no budget, just write a big fucking orchestral score like they used to, and NO PLAGIARISM."

Assuming she could adhere to No Plagiarism, just imagine the kind of score you'd get. She's writing this kind of stuff for crappy cartoon shows about wimpy guys flying around in big exploding robot suits. What would you get if you gave her Star Trek? With the London Symphony Orchestra, Abbey Road, and a blank cheque? Now THAT I'd like to hear.

Of all the Western orchestrators I know, I'd have suspected McNeely was a sure bet for someone working on Kanno's scores, as impossible as that might actually be. Shadows of the Empire and Young Indiana Jones (the only two McNeely scores I'm familiar with) are loaded to the brim with Kanno-style classical plagiarisms (Ravel, Prokofiev, Mahler, Walton), and not just because they owe much to Williams in the first place.

Agreed. Obviously it's impossible, but McNeely is about as close as I can get, sound-wise. Although, I maintain any decent orchestrator could pull this stuff out of their ass whilst half asleep, if they had their textbooks and Williams-Goldsmith-Poledouris-Broughton-Insert Classical Composer Here CD collections out.

Energy spent on coming up with catchy themes is energy not spent on making the orchestra sound great.

If only they gave these poor guys enough time to write the score, this wouldn't happen. If you tell somebody they have two weeks to come up with three hours of orchestral music, something's going to give. It always does.

OFF TOPIC: I was scoring a crappy Indie movie in London a couple of years ago - it was a 20 minute short film, utter shit, complete and total bloody crap form start to finish. Poorly shot, poorly written, poorly acted, poorly everything. The guy who wrote the thing (not the director) fell in love with, you've guessed it, THE TEMP TRACK - which was my music anyway. I argued, they said "sod off" and I went off and wrote my original piece. I did a beautiful melancholy score for strings, and in the final cue, a few other instruments. I saved that shitty film - I remember, the guy cried when he saw it with music. There was a gloomy scene at the end where a guy who has just killed his best friend (thinking he had been stealing money) discovers that his friend was actually innocent - he walks out into the garden, and discovers that he has been sleepwalking and has buried the money in the garden. He realises this and falls to his knees in absolute horror. There is no dialogue. They sent me a flickery, badly lit bit of DV rubbish, where you could barely see what was happening. When I scored it, dammit, it worked so well - the guy said he didn't really feel it until there was music. Anyway, the point of this story is, I managed to sneak what I would consider good film music, into a crummy indie flick. I even managed to get a production company logo cue in there! It was a very Herrmannesque score (and when I say Herrmanesque, I don't mean I just stole a few pages from Vertigo and hoped nobody would notice!!!) ;) That's about the only place you'll ever find good music nowadays, which is a shame because there is never a budget to realise it. So it's all crappy synth.

[Edit: Because I figured you'd ask, here's the score - http://sharebee.com/70720a23 - sorry, it's a poxy unfinished mix and the main title just stops because it was faded out in the film so I didn't bother to finish it. It's only 4 minutes long in total - sparsely scored, like all the good ones. Be kind, this is pretty old stuff. Criticism welcome. NO PASSING AROUND PLEASE.]

streichorchester

06-12-2008, 12:10 AM

Then Dodd gets some assignments on his own... What do we get? Something that sounds like David Arnold ASLEEP ON THE JOB.

Mind-boggling.

Agreed. Obviously it's impossible, but McNeely is about as close as I can get, sound-wise. Although, I maintain any decent orchestrator could pull this stuff out of their ass whilst half asleep, if they had their textbooks and Williams-Goldsmith-Poledouris-Broughton-Insert Classical Composer Here CD collections out.

It's always going to seem like it's only a matter of time until every single note Kanno has put down is lifted from somewhere else. That's tragic for two reasons: 1. because we could have otherwise had a jewel of a composer to ease our mourning over the death of Western traditions and 2. because we might never know if our favourite pieces by Kanno are just plagiarisms of some unknown's work. For example, my favourite Kanno track is Warriors from Brainpowerd, and as far as I can tell it is innocent of any malicious intent.

[Edit: Because I figured you'd ask, here's the score - http://sharebee.com/70720a23 - sorry, it's a poxy unfinished mix and the main title just stops because it was faded out in the film so I didn't bother to finish it. It's only 4 minutes long in total - sparsely scored, like all the good ones. Be kind, this is pretty old stuff. Criticism welcome. NO PASSING AROUND PLEASE.]

Well, I can tell you that what's there sounds very good, but probably doesn't represent the best of your abilities. That's the curse of wanting to score films and having to start in the boring and dreary indie scene scoring short human dramas. I don't think I could do much better given the same material and story since I'm not interested in drama as much as I am sci-fi/fantasy/action/adventure. Thank god for the concert hall? Uh, not so much.

drajin

06-12-2008, 12:24 AM

Kanno didn't score Jin-Roh. Hajime Mizoguchi (at the time, Kanno's husband) did. Kanno was pianist, I believe, at the recording session.

Totally forgot that one. Thanks for reminding me. Well, at least she does got involve in it a little, so i dont look like a complete idiot ;)

Music can be functional perfectly well in situ and still be shitty music.

Music can totally wreck a game/film/anime and still be truly great music.

If I take a hypothetical scene in which a mother is being told that her baby has miscarried, and I score it with The Maple Leaf Rag - it's inappropriate, not fit for purpose, and in that context would actually be very offensive. It would be making fun of the character, disrespecting her pain.

Conversely, if I take an example from any number of commercialised, poorer quality film scores of recent years - let's use Iron Man as an example. The music serves its purpose (on a peripheral level) in the film but, divorced from that context, it is crummy music. For somebody who responds to music as an emotional creature, a personality, it fails not only as music but also as a companion to the film. It does its job to the extent that you can still watch the movie, understand the story, and understand what the characters are feeling, but it provides no insight. Over the course of his career, Jerry Goldsmith propped up so many bad films with good music because he knew the films themselves weren't providing in some areas and so he had to compensate.

Good music can not work, whilst bad music can.

Therefore, we have to judge it differently because it becomes less about the composer of the piece in question, and more about the sensitivity and intelligence with which it was worked into the film.

I agree on this. A composer for anime/movie/game doesn't have to make such a great music. As long as the music fits perfectly into the scene, that what's makes a better composer. I'm a huge fan of kajiura yuki, but she lack that important element you mentioned above. Some of her music somewhat, not right, played at the wrong moment. .hack//sign is a good example, though her music is the only reason I manage to watch it till the end without sleeping. However, her ability to put the right music into the right scene improves in later anime, and i hope she'll keep up the good work.

Now, let's forget about "fitting" skill. I have my own opinion regarding "game music compose". As far as I research, nobuo uematsu never composed music for anything besides games. I think composing music for games is kinda easier than in movies/series/anime. I dont really know how to describe it in words, but let's take an example. Let's say, MegamanX6. Making a bgm for a stage is simple actually. If it's a stage with snow & ice everywhere, a "slow" music is used.(sorry for lack of vocabulary) It fits well, but any other "slow" music might fit well in the same stage. Let's take a more complicated game like FF. During gameplay, it's the same. During story telling, this where all the challenge takes place. Sometime during a dialogue, characters might change topics, which demands different bgm to be played, but still is not as complicated as making music for movies/anime, which demands extensive change of mood, and anime demands more from music than game does.
This is probably why I think movie/series/anime music composers can also compose some for games, as it is a downhill task. But i dont see games composer scoring for movie/series/anime. (maybe im wrong) Both Yoko & Yuki scores for anime and games. however nobuo did some scoring for advent children & legend of crystal, but it's no good to me. He did also for ah my goddess movie & blue dragon (anime), but didn't do it alone. (means he isn't fully credited to the music). nobuo just doesn't seem to go well outside "game". But I do believe he can make an excellent job in composing music for general listening, unrelated to game.

So, my whole point is, is nobuo uematsu really a good composer as a whole? Or a great "game" music composer?

streichorchester

06-12-2008, 12:53 AM

and anime demands more from music than game does.

In Kanno's case that might seem so because her production values for anime are so high, but typically anime music functions more on the level of game music: individual, all-purpose tracks written out of context and used wherever they fit. It's rare to find anime that is scored scene to scene, mood to mood, and even Kanno just tends to resuse pieces when scoring the movie adaptations of Turn A Gundam and Escaflowne.

Interestingly, though, Macross Frontier is showing more of a concern for scene to scene scoring, especially that one moment in episode 10 that was very impressive. If we don't hear that cue again, you could probably cite that moment as the best example of Western-style scoring in an anime series.

drajin

06-12-2008, 03:03 PM

In Kanno's case that might seem so because her production values for anime are so high, but typically anime music functions more on the level of game music: individual, all-purpose tracks written out of context and used wherever they fit. It's rare to find anime that is scored scene to scene, mood to mood, and even Kanno just tends to resuse pieces when scoring the movie adaptations of Turn A Gundam and Escaflowne.

Interestingly, though, Macross Frontier is showing more of a concern for scene to scene scoring, especially that one moment in episode 10 that was very impressive. If we don't hear that cue again, you could probably cite that moment as the best example of Western-style scoring in an anime series.

What you said was right, but my statement didn't refer to kanno yoko alone, but to all anime music composers. I completely agree your statemtnt "It's rare to find anime that is scored scene to scene, mood to mood", but I forgot to mention that I dont watch typical shonen fighting anime (naruto & bleah & stuff). I watch more seinen anime, in which the storyline is more mature & complicated, or shonen anime which contain more plot than fightings. That means I come across these anime which demand music easily, so it's not rare for me, but generally, it's rare. Some example are seirei no moribito, inuyasha, fate stay night, clannad (2006).

streichorchester

06-12-2008, 06:53 PM

I understood you meant all anime, but seriously, Kanno is the only one who seems to be scoring to picture in a series, and that's only when she feels like it. I'm not sure about the anime you've listed since I haven't seen them (though I do enjoy Kaoru Wada's scores to Inuyasha, Samurai 7, etc.) but in every seinen anime I've seen the sound guy just puts in the track that fits best, which isn't the traditional Western method of scoring scene to scene. The tracks are just reused each episode, for example: this one plays in the morning at the beginning of an episode, this one plays during a funny, slapstick situation, this one plays to build to the "to be continued" at the end, and so on. And then there's the abundance of "character" themes that practically demand that they be reused over and over.

But if you can give me an example of a scene being scored with a "cue" rather than a "track", I'd be interested in seeing it.

drajin

06-12-2008, 09:51 PM

but in every seinen anime I've seen the sound guy just puts in the track that fits best, which isn't the traditional Western method of scoring scene to scene. The tracks are just reused each episode,

Hmm, maybe you can mentioned what anime actually you're refer to (i mean, like an example). I watched hundreds of anime, maybe I know which anime it is. (well, not hundred, just to stress I watch A LOT of anime, probably have reached 100 titles, and certainly over 1000 episodes :)) It's also important that you mention it because seinen anime is less popular, even a very good one.

I'm glad you like Kaoru wada's scores to inuyasha. If you like his work, you'll probably like kawai kenji's score in "seirei no moribito". This is one of the best rated seinen anime out there. The music probably play a big part of it.

But if you can give me an example of a scene being scored with a "cue" rather than a "track", I'd be interested in seeing it.

I dont understand what you mean by "cue" rather than a "track", so my apology, i cant provide the example you asked. Maybe you can enlighten me, but if it is not possible to define it in words then it's fine.

This getting out of track. This is Kanno yoko's thread, and I have yet to write anything about her. Better watch GitS as ASAP and write some comments. Ja~ ;)

streichorchester

06-12-2008, 10:44 PM

I dont understand what you mean by "cue" rather than a "track", so my apology, i cant provide the example you asked. Maybe you can enlighten me, but if it is not possible to define it in words then it's fine.

When a composer writes an orchestral score, cues are written in the physical score (usually the conductor's score) to indicate exactly what timeframe the music occurs in so the orchestra can match the images on the screen. This is how most Western movies are scored. Scores like Star Wars have hundreds of cues, but they're usually contained within 20-30 tracks so the music is without breaks. The idea is to use as little repetition as possible. Of course, George Lucas went ahead and messed up the beauty of this method by reusing cues in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, so I'm mainly citing the original trilogy as the best example.

For games the music can't possibly be written to match the images, so the composer writes tracks that best fit the area of the game or general mood of the characters and it is up to the sound programmer to have them play at the right time. Wherever there are scenes scored to picture in games, they're usually during cgi sequences where the user has no control, so it's just like scoring a movie in that case.

Anime is more similar to games in that the composer writes general tracks that don't necessarily match the images on the screen, so it is up to the sound guy to choose the most appropriate tracks as if they were cues, and reuse them if necessary. If you listen to any anime OST the tracks are usually much like game music, except with a beginning and ending because they can't loop.

In Kanno's case, she writes longer tracks so the sound guy can break them up to force cues out of them. The way Dance of Curse is butchered up throughout Escaflowne is a perfect example of how the scoring process for anime composers is more of an afterthought. I'd give you more examples, but it's really useless since I can't name one anime (series) that is entirely scored to picture. Not one.

tangotreats

06-13-2008, 12:42 PM

In Kanno's case, she writes longer tracks so the sound guy can break them up to force cues out of them. The way Dance of Curse is butchered up throughout Escaflowne is a perfect example of how the scoring process for anime composers is more of an afterthought. I'd give you more examples, but it's really useless since I can't name one anime (series) that is entirely scored to picture. Not one.

I doubt if there *are* any. There's just not the budget or time to individually score, scene per scene, 25+ hours of television.

I suspect most theatrical anime MOVIES are scored in this way, but not episodic television, no way.

Kanno is the only one who seems to be scoring to picture in a series, and that's only when she feels like it.

It is done in the more important scenes. You can get away with generic music most of the time, but sometimes you need to score to picture. The finale of Escaflowne is a nice example. One five minute cue, written *for that scene* and used once, and once alone.

And then you get 20 seconds snippets of Dance of Curse repeated twenty thousand times throughout... :(

drajin

06-13-2008, 08:23 PM

When a composer writes an orchestral score, cues are written in the physical score (usually the conductor's score) to indicate exactly what timeframe the music occurs in so the orchestra can match the images on the screen. This is how most Western movies are scored. Scores like Star Wars have hundreds of cues, but they're usually contained within 20-30 tracks so the music is without breaks. The idea is to use as little repetition as possible. Of course, George Lucas went ahead and messed up the beauty of this method by reusing cues in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, so I'm mainly citing the original trilogy as the best example.

For games the music can't possibly be written to match the images, so the composer writes tracks that best fit the area of the game or general mood of the characters and it is up to the sound programmer to have them play at the right time. Wherever there are scenes scored to picture in games, they're usually during cgi sequences where the user has no control, so it's just like scoring a movie in that case.

Anime is more similar to games in that the composer writes general tracks that don't necessarily match the images on the screen, so it is up to the sound guy to choose the most appropriate tracks as if they were cues, and reuse them if necessary. If you listen to any anime OST the tracks are usually much like game music, except with a beginning and ending because they can't loop.

In Kanno's case, she writes longer tracks so the sound guy can break them up to force cues out of them. The way Dance of Curse is butchered up throughout Escaflowne is a perfect example of how the scoring process for anime composers is more of an afterthought. I'd give you more examples, but it's really useless since I can't name one anime (series) that is entirely scored to picture. Not one.

Thanks for the explanation. I fully understood. I'll try to search my "library of anime" to see if there is any anime like that. But like you said, there probably aren't any. However, for anime like that to actually exist, it has to be a fast moving anime, so that can narrow my search. I'll exclude slow anime like slam dunk, naruto, tsukihime, etc.

streichorchester

06-14-2008, 08:42 AM

Just found this one:

http://rapidshare.com/files/122321426/similarity.zip.html

I can't wait for OST 2 and 3!!

drajin

06-24-2008, 08:26 PM

But if you can give me an example of a scene being scored with a "cue" rather than a "track", I'd be interested in seeing it.

I watched the first 4 episodes of Sekai no Monsho (Crest of the Stars), and from my understanding, this anime is being scored more to "cue" than "track", I think. The series is very good, though old (1999), i'm enjoying this anime. The anime and the music make me feels like i'm watching a movie, rather than a TV series. Anyway, havent't watch Sekai no Senki (Banner of the Star) yet, but I'll watch all in order. I think this is a very interesting anime. :)

Just found this one:

http://rapidshare.com/files/122321426/similarity.zip.html

I can't wait for OST 2 and 3!!

I think I heard this track in many other movie/series/etc. This track probably have been used with permission, cause I think I heard it everwhere. If you watched hong kong tv series featuring ancient chinese kungfu, most of them uses the same music. Anyway, what anime was that track from? Just curious. It mentioned "Saotome-kun" but I can't think of any besides ranma, which I think it's not. Nana-san was mentioned, so, "Nana"?

I've watched Empire of the Sun a loooong time ago, and of course I don't remember that music :p

streichorchester

06-24-2008, 09:43 PM

I watched the first 4 episodes of Sekai no Monsho (Crest of the Stars), and from my understanding, this anime is being scored more to "cue" than "track", I think. The series is very good, though old (1999), i'm enjoying this anime. The anime and the music make me feels like i'm watching a movie, rather than a TV series. Anyway, havent't watch Sekai no Senki (Banner of the Star) yet, but I'll watch all in order. I think this is a very interesting anime. :)

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I think I heard this track in many other movie/series/etc. This track probably have been used with permission, cause I think I heard it everwhere.

That might be possible since Western film music seems to be licensed all the time in the Asian television industry. But in this case Kanno was using it as a model for Macross Frontier (I guess what could be considered the "training montage.") It's not as blatant as her plagiarism of Williams's Far and Away:

http://rapidshare.com/files/123875253/verysimilar.zip.html

...but it's Williams no less. Also, I heard that there is some Star Wars influence in Track 18 "First love Final love" from the Aquarion OST 2. I know the track opens with a play on the end credits from The Lost World, but what is the Star Wars thing I'm not hearing? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

tangotreats

06-26-2008, 06:38 PM

Up to 0:07 it's a loosely reharmonised take on the Force theme.

streichorchester

06-26-2008, 07:33 PM

Hmm, possibly. But I think it sounds more like The Lost World:

http://jeremyrobson.com/finallove.mp3
http://jeremyrobson.com/lostworld.mp3

jedinewtype

06-28-2008, 05:41 AM

I know I'm adding fuel to the flame butO:] ....

When I was browsing The Film Score/VGM Hunt Thread (Thread 40522) I came a an awesome OST, Plunkett & Macleane OST (http://www.amazon.com/plunkett-macleane-Original-Motion-Picture/dp/B00000J80M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214623401&sr=1-1) (composed by Craig Armstrong). I became addicted to the song "Escape" until I started to think why I liked it so much, and where I heard it before... Then I realized that song is exactly like "Good By My Master" from Ghost In The Shell - Stand Alone Complex OST - be Human (http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Shell-Stand-Alone-Complex/dp/B0002YLDPK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214627495&sr=1-7) (composed by Yoko Kanno).

Hear for yourself:

Escape
[Plunkett & Macleane OST (1999), composed by Craig Armstrong]

- song was used in a ton of movie trailers back in early 2000

Good By My Master
[Ghost In The Shell - Stand Alone Complex OST - be Human (2003), composed by Yoko Kanno]

DL (http://rapidshare.com/files/125538334/ESC_VS_GBMM.rar) (Only contains songs, not OSTs themselves)

Pass: friend

> What are your opinions? haters

streichorchester

06-28-2008, 05:47 AM

Kanno seems to be a fan of Craig Armstrong, but since I'm not I can't really pick out the similarities everyone seems to mention.

I am, however, a fan of Bill Conti and thought this was pretty blatant:

Macross Frontier episode 3:
http://jeremyrobson.com/frontier8.mp3

Bill Conti's The Right Stuff:
http://jeremyrobson.com/rightstuff.mp3

edit: what's the password?

jedinewtype

06-28-2008, 05:52 AM

streichorchester

06-28-2008, 06:02 AM

I just realized I had both tracks already. :D

edit:

The Escape/GitS similarity seems to be mostly in style since the melodies are way different. In terms of melody, Armstrong's reminds me of ES Posthumus's work while Kanno's actually reminds me more of Leto's Death from the Dune soundtrack. Why is it always Dune? Strange, that.

Jawful

06-29-2008, 08:35 PM

tangotreats

07-01-2008, 12:41 PM

Eh, I'd say it's less "plagiarized" and more "influenced". She draws from a lot of sources for inspiration when doing her music, some more obviously than others. It's a little hard to believe her now when she said in an interview that she doesn't really listen to a lot of music, but as long as shes not copying exact snippets of music and recreates them in her own personal manner, I don't see the problem.

It's like visual art; if you trace something and say it's your art, then that's shitty of you... but if you use a reference for posing while still adding your own touches and applying what you know about how to use medium and tools then it's fine. This discovery doesn't make me enjoy Kanno's music any less than I did before.

With utmost respect, I am so fed up with people coming in saying stuff like this. For crying out loud, read the rest of the thread, learn about music, become educated...

To extend your analogy, if I use a reference of a pose and make a piece of art from it, I am creating my *own* piece of art according to form. This is the exact same kind of thing classical composers do when they write a symphony, a concerto, a quartet, a duo, or anything in between.

Taking the Mona Lisa, making her blonde and giving her eyebrows, is NOT fine.

Jawful

07-02-2008, 07:34 AM

I did read it, all 7 pages. I'm just saying that people's definitions of plagiarism are just as subjective as their opinion on whether music is good or not. You think it's direct plagiarism, I think it's influenced but still original in its own right.

Interesting to note that all of her copypastaed music is commission work, though. As an artist, I can't fault her for half-assing paid work; Lord knows I've done it plenty of times. In that respect then no, she isn't a truely creative artist, but she does what she does and does it well just as any commercial artist would were they hired to design logos for a living.

tangotreats

07-02-2008, 10:18 AM

I know - it's just that we've already had pages and pages of arguments on this very topic. Despite the fact that it quite clearly *is* plagiarism, somebody appears and says it's all right / not plagiarism at all / just influence / justified / better-than-the-original-so-it's-OK, and many more variations on a theme. The fact is it's *not* all right - her plagiarism - and it IS plagiarism; you may not think so, but it is - is abusive to the musicians from whom she plunders, and to the listener as she is misleading them into believing the piece is original. Finally it is abusive to the media for which she is composing, because as has been discussed earlier, a film score is a unique personality in a movie, and that personality is compromised when it has facets copied and pasted from other movies or compositions.

Master Killer

07-03-2008, 02:08 PM

I rarely jump into threads, so here I go. It is bad to know if someone plagiarizes and the truth does not get out. You end up with so many myths and cult of personality, that it is sickening. I agree with honesty but hear me out. "If honesty was introduced in our lives, the system will collapse" - George Carlin

A lot of things is cover by so much B.S. that it is not even funny. I seriously doubt that Kanno writes all her material. It is probably have a lot more hands than we think. Yoko Kanno is probably just a figurehead and nothing else. Maybe another theory for her plagiarism? I don't know.

streichorchester

08-02-2008, 11:45 PM

For example, my favourite Kanno track is Warriors from Brainpowerd, and as far as I can tell it is innocent of any malicious intent.

It's been a while for this thread, but I was listening to Prokofiev's Scythian Suite and just noticed for the first time ever that this track from Brainpowerd (Warriors) is partly based on the opening of the final movement, at least, just the ostinato in the opening measures. Strange that I never noticed it before, but it just goes to show that there is always something new to find in Kanno's work, even if you don't want to.

shahmastert

08-09-2008, 07:13 AM

They are two completely different artists.
I kinda think it's unfair to compare the two, as they are both very skilled.
I prefer Yoko Kanno over Uematsu, but he is still one of my favorite artists.
And yes, I've noticed that there are oh so many Uematsu fans, calling him a "god" of VGM.
Come on, people.

newsblade

08-10-2008, 11:50 AM

Uematsu, altough Kano is not bad.

NaotaM

08-19-2008, 12:56 AM

Wow, this thread is still alive, huh? Well, I just thought I'd just post a little something I stumbled across recently that should be interesting to wacth, despite the subtitles being in Korean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ-afIy3xjc

Yoko Kanno still ftw. ;p

tangotreats

08-19-2008, 10:27 AM

Fascinating stuff - wish there was an English translation, but still interesting to watch.

The awkward exchange in English between Kanno and the Polish technicians is priceless:

Kanno (outside hall, reading the sign on the entrance): "Feel...har...mon...ic..."

Technician: "Every time when you come, you have a new gadgets!"

Kanno: "New gadgets?"

Technician: "New gadgets!"

Kanno: "What, what is gadgets?"

Technician: "Gadgets?"

Kanno: "Mmhmm!"

Technician: "Err, toys, or, err..."

Kanno: "Ah, toys! *laughs*"

That made me smile, even if the endless plagiarism still makes me grimace in pain. ;)

And the brief exchange of her discussing the score with Mario Klemmens - Klemmens hums the score, Kanno says "no no no no no" - Klemmens hums it a different way and Kanno grins in agreement...

streichorchester

08-19-2008, 12:53 PM

And the brief exchange of her discussing the score with Mario Klemmens - Klemmens hums the score, Kanno says "no no no no no" - Klemmens hums it a different way and Kanno grins in agreement...

Did they decide to go over an hour's worth of music right there in the airport lobby?

Watched it again and still wondering why that piece at 14:20 sounds so familiar. I'm pretty sure it's based on some Russian composer's music (don't think it's Bartok.) Maybe even a piano piece.

Williams's Far and Away spotted at 4:48.

Herrmann's Seventh Voyage of Sinbad spotted at 27:38 (the accompaniment, not the melody.)

The "Blonde" piece at 33:36 is about as Prokofievian as you can get without copying him exactly.

Similarly, 41:10 is as Silvestri-ian as you can without copying HIM exactly. Forrest Gump spotted running at 43:30.

I wish I knew the sources for more of the pieces. It's insane how familiar some of them sound.

Harixen

08-23-2008, 07:28 PM

NaotaM

08-24-2008, 12:05 AM

Yoko Kanno suffers, from in my opinion, the same problem as Koichi Sugimiya. Yes, they are both incredibly diverse and technical, no, they do not invoke the same kind of emotion that Nobuo Uematsu can.

Either way though, Yasunori Mitsuda wins. Or maybe Iwasaki Tarou?... Kind of hard to beat "LIBERA ME!... RAW! RAW! Fight the POWA!"... (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann fans will immediately recognise that.)

Funny, Uematsu's good and all, but ff7 is still the only album I can enjoy as real music outside the game's context, and even then I don't get this "emotion" his fans always rave about. Kanno's work is some of the emotionally driven I've ever heard, but that's my opinion.

Still, Mitsuda and Sugiyama are pretty sweet, easily besting Nobuo, so I'll give you that.

And Gurren Laggen? Lol no.

Umichan

09-01-2008, 07:04 AM

I'm a die hard FF fan, but I'm also a die hard GitS fan.

Kanno

Taaj

09-07-2008, 10:23 PM

"Oh noes! Kanno isn't being original!"

If she hasn't gotten sued, then she's doing something right. Nobuo is awesome and has spawned some awesome memories. With that said, Kanno wins this one. I can't see Nobuo EVER making a song like "Blue".

And regardless of "teh" sources, Blue is one of the most original and emotional songs I've ever heard.

tangotreats

09-07-2008, 10:40 PM

With utmost respect, it looks as though you've made those statements:

a) Without reading the previous pages of this thread.
b) With no respect for the unpleasent facts discussed herein.

Whichever of those you are guilty of - possibly both, I don't know, but you can't disregard this.

Part of being an artist is being original. An artist does not rip off other artists and claim the accolades for themselves. Kanno is a commercial endeavour. A very good one, yes - but not an artist.

Yes, she does something right - her name sells CDs and people like the music. That point is beyond dispute. Popularity does not, however, equal quality. Popularity isn't always deserved, poor quality is often popular, and good quality is often ignored. It's the way of the world...

I really don't know how she's avoided a massive lawsuit so far... I would suspect she is relying on the negligible overlap between fans of Eastern anime / video game music, and fans Western film and classical music.

Few people in Japan will be sufficiently familar with the repertoire pillaged to notice, and what are the odds that John Williams is going to be watching Macross, or Elliot Goldenthal watching Aquarion, etc, and think "Hang on, I wrote that theme twenty years ago! I'd better phone my lawyer!"? What are the odds that she's going to be noticed by pissed off artists / copyright owners / publishers? The only people who notice are folk like us - and in the great scheme of things, we don't matter.

streichorchester

09-08-2008, 12:05 AM

When artists are contacted by fans claiming someone ripped them off, their (or their agent's) first instinct is to say they'll look into it when really they're just trying to shut you up. Their second is to deny that any similarity is occurring so as to avoid having to take the plagiarist to court. Their third is to say they took care of it when they really didn't do anything (see the Bates-300 controversy.) :(

As a composer who likely doesn't own the copyrights on her work, Kanno is virtually invulnerable to lawsuits. James Horner didn't get sued until the pockets of Disney Co. were accountable.

tangotreats

09-08-2008, 12:20 AM

When artists are contacted by fans claiming someone ripped them off, their (or their agent's) first instinct is to say they'll look into it when really they're just trying to shut you up.

Indeed. Basically, they don't give a rats ass. Or they *do* give a rats ass, but realise that the effort they would expend in making a case of it wouldn't justify the possible outcome. Imagine the logistics of, say, Universal bringing a suit against the makers of Escaflowne for unauthorised use of John Williams' music. You've got an international, cross-cultural, language-barrier-ridden, hellish experience ahead of you, filled with laywers, snotty letters, company representation, meetings, court appearances, musicologists analysing the crap out of every bar of music in question, etc, etc, etc. What do you gain? Kanno says "Oops, sorry guys!" and whatever company she got into trouble shout at her a bit, pay some money to Universal to make them go away, and make a public statement saying "We is are much support great Musics of Williams John and is apologise for Borrow his melody" - and then fifteen minutes later, they sign up Kanno for their new upcoming anime series, because they know she sells CDs.

Their second is to deny that any similarity is occurring so as to avoid having to take the plagiarist to court.

It's all the same thing. Basically, it's a pain in the arse to investigate, a pain in the arse to litigate, and it's simply not worth their effort.

Their third is to say they took care of it when they really didn't do anything (see the Bates-300 controversy.)

SOMETHING happened... I would imagine Goldenthal got some kind of settlement... But nevertheless, look at the world of film music now, a year after 300:

a) Goldenthal is still almost completely inactive in the world of film music.
b) Tyler Bates is still hot property and is still getting ridiculously high profile work - because of...
c) ... 300 is still selling like hotcakes.
d) Nobody cares whether Goldenthal wrote it or not anyway, nor do 97% of people care that there is music AT ALL.

As a composer who likely doesn't own the copyrights on her work, Kanno is virtually invulnerable to lawsuits. James Horner didn't get sued until the pockets of Disney Co. were accountable.

Indeed... Even if a big old lawsuit DID come along, and the ghosts of Korngold, Goldsmith, Herrmann, Janacek, and a billion others all testified against her...

None of that changes the fact thatr she sells CDs, her fans are completely blind to her failings, and refuse to hear even the vaguest inkling of a bad word against her.

You sue Kanno tomorrow, the company pays up the day after, and the day after that, she's on the next seventeen crappy mecha movies because she's a girl, she's hot, and spotty anime fanboys adore her. (Yes, I'm a spotty anime fanboy, yes, I bought the Macross Frontier OST. YES, I think she's hot, and YES, I'd go to bed with her - but I digress...)

streichorchester

09-08-2008, 12:30 AM

I didn't think that anything came of the 300 debacle but a cheesy line on the 300 soundtrack site that really amounted to "yeah yeah, guys, I took care of it. stop worrying (and stop e-mailing us.)" I could be wrong, but if anything big happened like some sort of settlement I'm sure the good folks at filmscoremonthly board would have reported it in nanoseconds after the fact.

Maybe Goldenthal couldn't remember writing Titus in the first place so it all worked out.

Yes, I went there.

FF1WithAllThieves

09-13-2008, 07:46 AM

A lot of things is cover by so much B.S. that it is not even funny. I seriously doubt that Kanno writes all her material. It is probably have a lot more hands than we think. Yoko Kanno is probably just a figurehead and nothing else. Maybe another theory for her plagiarism? I don't know.

You obviously don't know very much about composing music if you think that a team of people can compose something. Creative differences? It doesn't take that long to do a film score, provided you have the capacity to compose at all. Yoko Kanno, I'm sure, does all of her scores by herself, whether or not she borrows from previous composers (and I defy you to find a film/game score composer that doesn't).

streichorchester

09-13-2008, 11:35 PM

You obviously don't know very much about composing music if you think that a team of people can compose something.

All Hollywood film scores are written by teams of composers made up of one head composer (such as James Horner, Danny Elfman, Hans Zimmer) and a league of 5-10 orchestrators with "additional music" writers.

To say Kanno doesn't at the very least have a copyist going over her orchestrations before they're handed over to the Warsaw Philharmonic is a bit na�ve. She has other things to work on, such as pop songs and all those commercials she writes music for.

FF1WithAllThieves

09-14-2008, 03:34 AM

All Hollywood film scores are written by teams of composers made up of one head composer (such as James Horner, Danny Elfman, Hans Zimmer) and a league of 5-10 orchestrators with "additional music" writers.

This does not make these composers figureheads. Dickheads, for not doing their own orchestrations, maybe, but not figureheads. It is not as though they hired a bunch of people to come up with the music for them. They just come up with the musical ideas and have someone else put those notes into orchestral parts.

To say Kanno doesn't at the very least have a copyist going over her orchestrations before they're handed over to the Warsaw Philharmonic is a bit na�ve. She has other things to work on, such as pop songs and all those commercials she writes music for.

Again, this has nothing to do with whether she wrote the music by herself.

ace1262

09-14-2008, 07:25 AM

Kajiura Yuki FTW~!

tangotreats

09-14-2008, 11:18 PM

streichorchester

09-15-2008, 12:11 AM

This does not make these composers figureheads. Dickheads, for not doing their own orchestrations, maybe, but not figureheads.

Okay, when you die and go to heaven, you walk up to Michael Kamen and call him a dickhead for having help orchestrating Prince of Thieves in the two weeks he was given to write/record the score. Or how about writing John Williams to tell him about what a dickhead he is for having 4-5 orchestrators help him with the original Star Wars scores? I wasn't calling them figureheads, but they do lead the team. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe they need a team because orchestration is hard and the time constraints are unreasonable? Probably not.

That's one of the reasons we're so skeptical of Kanno's work, because orchestration is hard. If she does what she does by herself she must be sitting in Finale or Sibelius 24/7 making sure to cross every grace note and dot every staccato. Well, maybe she takes a 5 minute break once a day to write hit pop songs and jazz charts and do interviews where she talks about those things and NOT her enduring love of classical composers, Western film scores, and tedious orchestration.

It is not as though they hired a bunch of people to come up with the music for them. They just come up with the musical ideas and have someone else put those notes into orchestral parts.

I never said that the music was being completely ghostwritten by orchestrators, but yes, orchestrators are often given liberties to add original material where it's needed. While Hollywood composers do in fact have their orchestrators compose a lot of original material (and a quick browse through IMDB of your favourite film scores should give you an indication of how prevalent the "additional music by" credit really is) you're correct in saying it's the orchestrator's job is to take the composer's ideas and make them work with live musicians. Yes, in a perfect world the composer would write every single note, but unfortunately it's just not a perfect world, especially in Hollywood filmscoring.

Again, this has nothing to do with whether she wrote the music by herself.

You're missing the point. No composer working with an orchestra that big is a lone wolf, no matter how much you wish it to be so because, I don't know, it spoils this pure image you have of Kanno (that many people seem to share.) Hiring help is just minimizing the risk there, buddy. Let me reiterate the difficulty of this level of 20th century orchestration, because you just don't seem to get it yet. It's hard, and composing original melodies and harmonic progressions in this idiom is hard enough already. Just take a gander at all those plagiarisms mentioned earlier in the thread. It's so hard that composers often need to resort to plagiarism to get the job done! But what do I know? I'm just a composer/orchestrator.

ace1262

09-15-2008, 11:12 PM

Oh yes, if you want endless banging drums, cruddy electronica beats and bongos, playing against some drab low-strings accompaniment, Kajuira's your lady! (Please, no flaming - I hate the woman. So kill me...)

Hey...I don't blame you. Some people just have different tastes in music. In fact some people hate people who listen to VGM like we do...

tangotreats

09-16-2008, 09:29 AM

Okay, when you die and go to heaven, you walk up to Michael Kamen and call him a dickhead for having help orchestrating Prince of Thieves in the two weeks he was given to write/record the score. Or how about writing John Williams to tell him about what a dickhead he is for having 4-5 orchestrators help him with the original Star Wars scores? I wasn't calling them figureheads, but they do lead the team. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe they need a team because orchestration is hard and the time constraints are unreasonable? Probably not.

Indeed - whilst composition is the mentally intensive side of music, orchestration is definitely the physical. It takes time, lots and lots of time, and if the gentleman above who says "it doesn't take long to write a film score if you have any ability whatsoever" thinks composing and writing out 100 minutes of music in full score, orchestrated for 100-piece symphony orchestra, is a piece of cake and takes no time at all, why is he not the most sought-after composer in Hollywood?

To extend the dickhead analogy, I'd probably go as far as to say you're a dickhead if you *can't* orchestrate your own score (although there are exceptions to this - David Arnold, Danny Elfman, etc) but definitely not if you don't. If Hollywood gave composers the time they needed to finish the score, they could orchestrate, and you'd see that beautiful credit "Composed, orchestrated, and conducted by: John Doe" that you never do nowadays. Since everything is a rush job - now doubly do, and the composer is inevitably the last thing anybody thinks of when making the film - if there is to be any chance at all that the expensive orchestra sitting in the studio will actually have something to perform, you need an orchestrator, or two, or six.

Having said this, if you're a composer of any ability / individuality, having somebody orchestrate for you isn't going to make a great deal of difference in terms of the final sound.

Arthur Morton said, with a completely straight face, that his orchestrating duties for Jerry Goldsmith amounted to "copying the music from the yellow paper to the white paper" - whilst there's always a bit more to it, he wasn't writing anything necessarily - all he was doing was expanding Jerry's shorthand into a full orchestral score.

John Williams used an orchestrator (one on the very first Star Wars, several on the last, if I remember correctly) but do you think that if time were no object, he wouldn't have done it himself? With a stack of paper and a thousand pencils, and nothing more. He could easily have orchestrated every last note. Jerry used an orchestrator (usually Arthur Morton, Alexander Courage, or Mark McKenzie - only three regulars across his entire career) but every now and again he didn't - see "The Edge" - if it's about "don't have the time" rather than "can't" and your sketches are good enough to represent your sound, without your personality being overwhelmed by the orchestrator, SO BE IT. If you're using an orchestrator as a crutch because you're a crap composer, that's quite a different matter.

That's one of the reasons we're so skeptical of Kanno's work, because orchestration is hard.

To expand upon that, *any* kind of orchestration is hard... The kind of orchestration Kanno uses almost defies analysis in terms of its density and complexity. You cannot throw this kind of stuff together in five minutes.

If she does what she does by herself she must be sitting in Finale or Sibelius 24/7 making sure to cross every grace note and dot every staccato. Well, maybe she takes a 5 minute break once a day to write hit pop songs and jazz charts and do interviews where she talks about those things and NOT her enduring love of classical composers, Western film scores, and tedious orchestration.

Not to mention eating ice cream, drawing pictures with crayon, dancing, taking polaroids of cute doggies, and flirting with orchestra technicians!

You're correct in saying it's the orchestrator's job is to take the composer's ideas and make them work with live musicians. Yes, in a perfect world the composer would write every single note, but unfortunately it's just not a perfect world, especially in Hollywood filmscoring.

This all comes down to what role the orchestrator is assuming. The traditional idea of an orchestrator is somebody who comes along and deciphers your speed-written scribble into a sensible, tidy orchestral score that the musicians will be able to read without Borg ocular implants. He's not adding or taking away. The composer's shorthand indicates every note, and gives a more-than-rough indication of what instruments are playing what notes. All the orchestrator does is turn this into score.

Example, I could write out a melody on two lines, and say "Tuba plays pedal, harmony in trombones and french horns, C major, the way I usually do it, melody on trumpet" and an orchestrator - who I know and trust, and who knows *exactly* what I mean when I say "the way I usually do it" expands that into a score. He hasn't influences the sound of the music in any big way.

I remember reading an article where Conrad Pope (I think) discusses orchestrating for Williams. He said that Williams' sketches are always so clear and so definite in their construction that hardly anything is needed. Shorthand has been established. When Williams gives him a score which has some chord progressions and a note that says "expand this into full orchestral tutti", the orchestrator knows Williams' musical style - who plays the bassline, what colours to apply, in great detail - well enough to understand how he would've done it in. And in any case, as part of the creative process, Williams will come back and look at the score and say "no no no, not like that" and will discuss what he wants.

The contemporary idea of orchestrator seems to be: "Uh oh, I don't really know what I'm doing. Here's a MIDI of a few melodies I sang in the bath last night. Can you turn that one into a cue for a battle, make it nice and loud and stuff, lots of brass, y'know? And turn this one into a love theme, soppy as hell, all romantic and stuff." and off goes the orchestrator and basically writes the whole damn thing.

It's so hard that composers often need to resort to plagiarism to get the job done! But what do I know? I'm just a composer/orchestrator.

That sounds like a justification. It's possible to write music without outright theft. If you can't, you shouldn't be writing music. Nobody's saying you can't be inspired, pay homage, quote, etc... But there is a line - and you know full well which side of it Kanno is sitting on almost 100% of the time. ;)

tangotreats

09-16-2008, 09:34 AM

Hey...I don't blame you. Some people just have different tastes in music. In fact some people hate people who listen to VGM like we do...

Thank you. :)

I've been flamed and sent to the eternal fires of hell for statements as inflammatory as "I don't think Kajiura's all she's cracked up to be!" so I was preparing for the apocalypse here. ;)

Trying to minimise the off-topic-ness of this post, she's just never interested me. It doesn't just bore me, it makes me actually uncomfortable, for some reason - it's not a pleasent feeling. A Kajiura track starts playing and I begin to feel my mind closing off, and my vision going black and white, and my heartrate slowing.

Also, as far as personality goes, she's obviously utterly infatuated by herself - she appears to see herself as some demi-Goddess, and I don't believe she is. She's another hot female composer working in a genre where most consumers are male, and pleased by almost anything. Somebody like Bernard Herrmann could get away with being a complete stuck up asshole, because it was completely evident to all people - even those who hated him and hated his music - that he was a genius.

Kajiura? Alternating chords, dull melody, ethnic beat over everything? Innovator? No... :)

streichorchester

09-16-2008, 10:17 AM

Thanks for your input, dannyfrench. This topic will continue to be interesting as long as we're provoked by newcomers to the thread. :D

Arthur Morton said, with a completely straight face, that his orchestrating duties for Jerry Goldsmith amounted to "copying the music from the yellow paper to the white paper" - whilst there's always a bit more to it, he wasn't writing anything necessarily - all he was doing was expanding Jerry's shorthand into a full orchestral score.

That sounds more like what a copyist does: turning short score into full score and editing the mistakes, filling in the rests and slurs. And he still managed to get an orchestrator credit out of it? I want that job.

John Williams used an orchestrator (one on the very first Star Wars, several on the last, if I remember correctly) but do you think that if time were no object, he wouldn't have done it himself? With a stack of paper and a thousand pencils, and nothing more. He could easily have orchestrated every last note.

IMDB lists Herbert Spencer and Angela Morley as having worked on the first three Star Wars scores and many of Williams's other projects. It'd be interesting to learn what they did exactly and if Angela went uncredited because she was a former man. I'm always surprised to see the orchestrator credit on many of my favourite scores from the pre-90s; an era which I thought was mainly orchestrator-less. Conan the Barbarian was a surprise.

Not to mention eating ice cream, drawing pictures with crayon, dancing, taking polaroids of cute doggies, and flirting with orchestra technicians!

Yeah, so the point that needs to come across here is that if she can do all this and orchestrate a massive score within the anime's time constraints, well, then she's a prodigy. She's Mozart. Some people already believe that she is, but I need scientific proof here. Someone needs to make a documentary of her sitting down at a piano (or a computer) and putting actual notes to paper (with the score to Daphnis et Chloe sitting open on the coffee table.) But it can't be staged. Man, if she really does have this ability, she should be teaching master classes and writing for the concert hall. I'm sure they'd have no problem selling out. And if she is indeed this lover of classical music, she would be thrilled about those kinds of opportunities. That is, unless she's touched... :P

I remember reading an article where Conrad Pope (I think) discusses orchestrating for Williams.

I wonder if we should consider Pope a nominee for a possible Kanno orchestrator. Tracks like Girls Rule (15 - OST 1) sound so much like Williams I want to call him up and ask "Did you write this?" which obviously he didn't so he's say "No." and I'd go "LIAR!" It makes me wonder if a disgruntled, former Williams orchestrator went to Japan to work for Kanno or something. It's really top-notch stuff.

The contemporary idea of orchestrator seems to be: "Uh oh, I don't really know what I'm doing. Here's a MIDI of a few melodies I sang in the bath last night. Can you turn that one into a cue for a battle, make it nice and loud and stuff, lots of brass, y'know? And turn this one into a love theme, soppy as hell, all romantic and stuff." and off goes the orchestrator and basically writes the whole damn thing.

Pssh, I wouldn't care if he did that as long as there's a melody. Now it's just "here's a MIDI of a few rhythms I sang in the bath last night."

That sounds like a justification. It's possible to write music without outright theft. If you can't, you shouldn't be writing music. Nobody's saying you can't be inspired, pay homage, quote, etc... But there is a line - and you know full well which side of it Kanno is sitting on almost 100% of the time. ;)

Well, I mean that if you had to imitate a temp track because a producer told you to, it's easier to imitate than come up with something original that works just as well. One takes 5 seconds, the other takes 5 days.

tangotreats

09-17-2008, 01:20 PM

That sounds more like what a copyist does: turning short score into full score and editing the mistakes, filling in the rests and slurs. And he still managed to get an orchestrator credit out of it? I want that job.

By and large, that's what an orchestrator does for people like Goldsmith, Williams, etc - the composer composes, the orchestrator tidies up a messy score and makes the odd correction here and there. I suppose it all comes from the initial composition technique - Goldsmith tended to almost orchestrate everything anyway just because he was particular about the sound he wanted; so he didn't entrust anything subjective to an orchestrator.

An orchestrator turns short score into full score and conductor's score, corrects errors, thickens textures, etc - silly stuff. If an orchestrator is adding notes, or composing, it becomes less about the composer and more about the orchestrator. Anybody upon anybody can orchestrate for Williams (Morley, Spencer, Pope, Neufeld, Karam, etc, etc) and it still sounds absolutely, unequivocably like Williams. Same with Goldsmith - Morton, Courage, McKenzie, just doing the donkey work. I doubt *anybody* can listen to a Goldsmith or Williams (or anybody talented) score and tell you who orchestrated it... But then look at somebody like Arnold, or Mansell's Sahara - both orchestrated by Nick Dodd, and both completely saturated with Dodd's style.

IMDB lists Herbert Spencer and Angela Morley as having worked on the first three Star Wars scores and many of Williams's other projects. It'd be interesting to learn what they did exactly and if Angela went uncredited because she was a former man.

As far as I'm aware, a lot of Morley's orchestrating work went uncredited, even when she was still Wally Stott up until the early seventies. I doubt whether it's related to the sex change - most likely just a tendency not to credit each and every participant in those days. Fred Steiner and Sandy Courage wrote quite a few cues for Goldsmith in STar Trek TMP, and they weren't credited - it was just the style at the time.

I'm always surprised to see the orchestrator credit on many of my favourite scores from the pre-90s; an era which I thought was mainly orchestrator-less. Conan the Barbarian was a surprise.

I think you're remembering the past with rose coloured glasses. ;)

I think it's safe to say, most composers (even of that era) used an orchestrator AT LEAST half of the time - with the exception of Herrmann who would shoot you in the head if you even suggested the idea. Hell, Gershwin had an orchestrator for Rhapsody in Blue - it wasn't a new idea. Point is, it doesn't really matter if the composer is talented, and isn't being propped up by the orchestrator.

If Williams' orchestrator goes sick, and there's nobody around to do it, he'll do it himself. Could Arnold? Elfman? Ottman? etc, etc, etc?

Yeah, so the point that needs to come across here is that if she can do all this and orchestrate a massive score within the anime's time constraints, well, then she's a prodigy. She's Mozart. Some people already believe that she is, but I need scientific proof here.

This is a point that can't be emphasissed enough - it's ever so close to impossible that she could be this talented, so I'm chosing to believe that it's not. You're a genius - you orchestrate your own music, and what's more your orchestrations are amongst the most detailed, technically EXCELLENT in the business... But somehow you don't have time or ability to compose even ONE completely original cue? Nah, not buying that.

Someone needs to make a documentary of her sitting down at a piano (or a computer) and putting actual notes to paper (with the score to Daphnis et Chloe sitting open on the coffee table.) But it can't be staged.

I suggested a variant on this experiment earlier on in this thread - somewhere around page four I believe. It would be a fascinating thing to behold.

That is, unless she's touched... :P

Eh? ;)

It makes me wonder if a disgruntled, former Williams orchestrator went to Japan to work for Kanno or something. It's really top-notch stuff.

Disgruntled, pissed off, talented people don't move to Japan and do absolutely SUPERLATIVE work for absolutely no credit...

Pssh, I wouldn't care if he did that as long as there's a melody. Now it's just "here's a MIDI of a few rhythms I sang in the bath last night."

Good point, good point... Sad but very true.

Well, I mean that if you had to imitate a temp track because a producer told you to, it's easier to imitate than come up with something original that works just as well. One takes 5 seconds, the other takes 5 days.

Absolutely agree, but I doubt that this is the case with Kanno. There is absolutely no sign in the music (orchestration as a prime example) that whoever is writing it is up against the clock... It doesn't feel slapdash or hasty. It feels incredibly well conceived. It's just that every flaming note comes from somewhere else... ;)

streichorchester

09-18-2008, 12:37 AM

Eh? ;)

I think it's safe to say the one behind the music is a big fan of classical music and film scores, and as you said before, enjoys what they do. If this "joy" is not evident in her interviews are we to believe she is ashamed of orchestral work, or just not interested?

For example, take this quote from one of her interviews here http://www.monkey-pirate.com/ykdb/index.php?topic=724.0:

Q - Ms. Kanno's youth, I presume, was filled with musical activities.

YK - Totally�. At least from 13 to 20 years old I didn't write/create absolutely anything, you see. Back then my interests were veering towards literature, and I thought I wanted to work in a newspaper company.

The exclamation of "Totally" was apparently supposed to be sarcastic, meaning she didn't spend any of those years composing music, classical-styled or otherwise.

Now, if you ask me, for someone with Kanno's supposed talents those years are more important than that. Those are the formative years. Those are the years when you actually discover you like some genres of music better than others. Those are the years when you actually improve your skill as a performer and composer. To say something like that is almost incriminating.

tangotreats

09-18-2008, 07:47 PM

Indeed, even more suspicious...

Q. Your past must have been very musical.
A. Hell no - I didn't give a shit until a couple of years ago! Then, with absolutely no warning, education, or pre-determined talent, I suddenly became a sickeningly talented composer with a brain that contains full conductor's scores for every piece of music ever written by anybody!

Q. Woah...
A. Hee hee hee, I make up my own words sometimes! Ice cream is tasty! Let me draw a picture of you with crayons! Ooooh, a doggie! Ooh, excuse me, sorry, I have to finish up 1800 pages of full score for a 100 piece symphony orchestra recording next week - byeeeeee byeeeeeeeeeeeee!! Hee hee!

karagiozis

09-24-2008, 02:33 AM

How can you consider Kanno or Kajiura hot? I mean, I can find at least 3 women in half a minute in a 20-meter radius that look definitely better. :P
That said, I have read all the posts (even if they are kind of off-topic).
Just a couple of comments I would like to make:
I consider John Williams one of the most overrated composers ever (by the way so are STAR WARS movies :P). Yes, his style is absolutely recognisable but every freaking song of his sounds identical to the next and IMHO blunt and boring... I admit I do like the Indiana Jones theme and Duel of the Fates but whenever I try to listen to his music I think I am listening to the same thing for 50 minutes.
I am not so sure what makes Star Trek better to compose music for than any random mecha anime. Both are pop in their own time and geography.
And no, I do not believe you can convince anyone that hasn't seen the series as a kid that it is a serious cinematic experience.
Concerning Kanno's plagiarism I have nothing to say although I was never a big fan of her work. As a matter of fact I have only listened to some of her most "popish" works and did not find it all that interesting. Escaflowne seems quite interesting actually (Dance of Curse does sound like O Fortuna but probably that is why I like it).
By the way, rejecting non-orchestral instruments or electronic sound is an "elitist" view :P and I find it quite provocative for people liking other genres of music. I am personally quite fond of orchestra but I do like music pieces where "alien" organs are used (granted that they serve the music and not just stiched together).
An example of a personal favorite here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4UvBI9vADc
As a final note my vote goes to Uematsu. He is by all means my favorite musician (being vg music or not). I listen to music a lot and when no other music piece would fit my mood there will be one from Nobuo. He might be simple (I do not have the technical knowledge to argue against that and I have no reason not to believe you) but he does produce art and channel feelings (at least to me, but art is a personal experience after all). The feelings are not because they are connected with scenes from his games. I really like the Blue Dragon Soundtrack without ever playing it and the same is true for the Phantasmagoria album (not game related-well there is the final fantasy theme in the album but it is probably the worst part of the album). And the Lost Odyssey theme makes me cry for no obvious reason.

tangotreats

09-24-2008, 03:47 AM

How can you consider Kanno or Kajiura hot? I mean, I can find at least 3 women in half a minute in a 20-meter radius that look definitely better. :P

I have a soft spot for Japanese ladies, and for musicians... I'm sure a "collaboration" between them and me would result in some magnificent compositions... ;)

That said, I have read all the posts (even if they are kind of off-topic).

I think the off-topicness is justified. The poll had concluded and this thread had lived out its initial purpose. Lest we forget that the initial purpose was "Who's coolest, duuuuuuude!" and that 95% of the comments were on that intellectual level. If this topic went off its original topic, it definitely moved to another, more worthy one.

I consider John Williams one of the most overrated composers ever (by the way so are STAR WARS movies :P). Yes, his style is absolutely recognisable but every freaking song of his sounds identical to the next and IMHO blunt and boring... I admit I do like the Indiana Jones theme and Duel of the Fates but whenever I try to listen to his music I think I am listening to the same thing for 50 minutes.

I have never understood why people are so enamoured with Star Wars. It's just not very good. It's a very dodgy, highly camp story riddled with plot holes, one dimensional, annoying characters, and trite dialogue. And bugger me, if it hasn't been done completely to death over the last thirty years.

However - I still believe the scores of Star Wars stand up as some of the proudest achievements of Hollywood's golden age of scoring.

I have a friend who has exactly the same view as you do regards Williams. You are mixing up a recognisable style with repetition. If all you're listening to is the texture, then yes, it does sound pretty similar. But to me, all cars look pretty similar - I'm more than willing to say that they're not in the slightest bit, but because I'm not particularly looking for deeper detail, I'm just getting the basic idea that they're all big metal boxes with wheels, into which you pour expensive, smelly liquid, and in exchange you don't have to walk to the supermarket.

Williams has written some of the most intellectually stimulating film music of all time. You really need to have an interest bordering on obsession to appreciate it. That's not intended to say you're an idiot, or anything like that - merely that it's easy to miss the woods for the trees with such things, and that I think you'd enjoy Williams a lot more if you started looking more at the mechanics and less at the colour of the paint.

That said, Goldsmith managed to vary his style so pretty much every single score he wrote - whilst all undeniably drenched with his signature, all had a certain sense of uniqueness, which went beyond using different melodies. So I do take your point.

I am not so sure what makes Star Trek better to compose music for than any random mecha anime. Both are pop in their own time and geography.
And no, I do not believe you can convince anyone that hasn't seen the series as a kid that it is a serious cinematic experience.[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to an earlier statement I made about being interested in seeing what Kanno would do with a Trek score?

I think the difference is largely in expectation. Look at your average (or even your above average) American cartoon. Are you going to get an orchestral score? Not in a million years. Are you going to get one that would stand up under musicological analysis? Not in all eternity. But that standard - the idea of doing far, far more than you would ever have to, for the sake of art, is what sets aside the Japanese stuff. It doesn't need it. 99.999% of the people listening don't care a crap. But the people who make the shows care about their vision, and they care about making the best possible product they can.

With Star Trek and Star Wars, there's still a (sadly historical) certain expectation of quality surrounding scores. If Power Rangers gets a crappy rock score or a synth orchestra, who the hell cares? It's not expected, and it's not important as far as the potential for enjoyment in the target demographic. But Star Trek/Wars, you expect... Music has been forcibly made important, because of exceptional artistic efforts made in the past.

If Star Trek had started today, it would get a crap modern score and nobody would notice, because it would be expected.

And no, I do not believe you can convince anyone that hasn't seen the series as a kid that it is a serious cinematic experience.

I think this is the phenomenon that convinces people that Star Wars is the greatest movie ever made. Nostalgia for something they saw as a kid. Star Wars is very, very exciting when you're seven. We have a generation of adults who remember that excitement, and who feel it when they see the movies still. Just try telling them Star Wars is silly garbage...

By the way, rejecting non-orchestral instruments or electronic sound is an "elitist" view :P and I find it quite provocative for people liking other genres of music. I am personally quite fond of orchestra but I do like music pieces where "alien" organs are used (granted that they serve the music and not just stiched together).

Ah, somebody used the word "elitist" - they must be referring to me again. Who has rejected non-orchestral instrumentation? Granted, most of the recent discussion in this thread has been biased towards it, because two of the participants in this discussion (Streich and myself) are classical musicians - it's our area of expertise and interest, so we're bound to be talking about it with more vigour than we would do a pop song.

Nevertheless, the word of the week seems to be art - and I'm sure no sensible person could argue that pop music is art in the traditional sense of the word. It's manufactured, commercially oriented music that is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. This intends no disrespect to the folk who enjoy it - but merely acknowledges that they are "easy to please" in the sense that music is a different experience for them. I listen to cheesy pop but I'm under no delusions that it's anything but cheap, one dimensional easy listening pap. I don't care because sometimes that's all I want. But when I want intellectual stimulus, and true artistry (that which makes humanity truly great) I am reaching up to my shelf and pulling down Mahler, Rachmaninov, Elgar, Vaughan-Williams, etc - not Kanno's J-Pop outings. There isn't much film music that I would listen to when I'm in one of those moods, either, come to think of it - Kanno's pot-pourri is fun to analyse in a "spot-the-tune, isn't-the-thematic-development-clever" kind of way, but for something that changes your life? No.

And, as far as being provocative is concerned, let it be so. Why should we pander to people who enjoy music on a superficial level and pretend there's nothing more to it than that, lest they feel that we're being intellectual, snobbish, elitist, etc? This is a planet full of wonderful things, and too much public attention is given to, to be blunt, complete and total shite - maybe the world needs a bit of intellectual snobbery to stand up for the great things that mankind have created. To ignore them, or pretend they're not there, or pretend they're not superior to mass-produced public-friendly media, is an insult to humanity, to their creators, to the spirit of creativity, to the people who appreciate them, and even to those who don't. If we didn't constantly better ourselves, acknowledge that there is more out there than we currently experience, understand that we can *always* learn more - as a species we would wither and die. Well, we are. Look at society today. I rest my case.

As a final note my vote goes to Uematsu. He is by all means my favorite musician (being vg music or not). I listen to music a lot and when no other music piece would fit my mood there will be one from Nobuo. He might be simple (I do not have the technical knowledge to argue against that and I have no reason not to believe you) but he does produce art and channel feelings (at least to me, but art is a personal experience after all). The feelings are not because they are connected with scenes from his games. I really like the Blue Dragon Soundtrack without ever playing it and the same is true for the Phantasmagoria album (not game related-well there is the final fantasy theme in the album but it is probably the worst part of the album). And the Lost Odyssey theme makes me cry for no obvious reason.

There is *nothing* wrong with simple. Sometimes something simple is the most complex thing of all. What I like about Uematsu is that he's a composer of feelings and of emotions - which is what music - the only truly universal worldwide language - is about, and what unites us in our love of music. Kanno can spin a thousand plates, pull a dinosaur out of a cloth cap, and do the riverdance whilst drinking a cup of tea, unicycling backwards on a spider's web above the pit of fire and brimstone... But Uematsu can walk up to you, whisper something in your ear, and make you cry. If I have to chose between honest, simple emotions and superficial acrobatics, I'll chose the emotion every single time. :)

karagiozis

09-24-2008, 09:43 AM

I accept that the most popular kind of music isn't necessarily the best *music* from an artistic point of view, and that average Joe responds to percussion, electronica, beat, rock/metal influences more than he does to pure orchestral complexity. It's a great shame as Average Joe's uncomplicated taste is killing the art.
My elitism (it was well intended :P) comment was actually referring to this.
The average Joe's taste is not killing the art because it is uncomplicated but rather because it responds to commercialised "you like it because we (the big companies) tell you so". I have heard/read my share of ridiculous comments (like "hip-hop would be epic here but instead they used instrumental crap that you would use in soap-operas, yo" or something to that extent).
I do believe that there are pop songs that are better and more inspired than some pieces of classical music. In a sense, classical music was "pop" and commercial at their own time and place (and quite rightly so because then they would never hear their works realised otherwise).
I, personally, believe that the average Joe's (not excluding myself from this category) preferences are acceptable as long as they include personal criteria and not just the industry's "suggestions". Not everyone has the will or the time to spend if he/she is not a musician and sometimes has to stay at the superficial level that is accessible to him/her. Moreover if some experiences of a particular type of music were not pleasant (ie. didn't like it for whatever reason) I really doubt it makes sense to try and delve into it. I have heard atonal music but I cannot make myself to like it and thus I see no point to try to understand it (to be honest I doubt that many people actually like atonal music). It may be very creative and technically excellent but to my ears it is not "artistic". I also dislike metal and I do not feel motivated to try and learn more about it. What I mean to say is that if I try to be educated I will not just do it for the sake of being educated but because I have an initial interest and try to expand it.
Of course, I cannot deny the industry's tendency to prevent any kind of education.

I do not disagree with you on anything in principle just want to makes my points clearer. And I do agree that the thread is better as it is now and made me actually read it. I would never read 100 pages of one-line comments. ;)

NaotaM

09-29-2008, 04:54 AM

LOL This constant "Kanno is not a true artist" elitist bawwing is always good for a laugh. Thanks for the neverending entertainment, guys. ;)

BTW, could someone please, PLEASE give me an example of this "Uematsu is a composer of emotions" bullshit I'm always hearing? Yes, the guy is good, but his work is hardly emotionally stirring at all, and not just cause of the crappy sound quality in all his ost's.

Name one "emotional" piece for me, please. Just one. And I'll scratch off a few examples right now.

Aerith's Theme: Not emotional, not touching, not special. Just typical Uematsu: simple and overly sappy. Actually, this could ring true for most of his leitmotifs.

One Winged Angel: Great boss theme and it gets you pumped, but that's just what a boss theme should do to begin with. Nice piece, but again, didn't change my life.

The Opera pieces from FF6: Honestly, a lot of Uematsu's older pieces don't really work for me at all. Outside of the nostalgic factor, I just don't hear the big deal. Unfortunately, I got to these songs too late to appreciate whatever quality they have.

Oh, and perhaps you snobs should take a closer look at Noby's work if you want real plagiarism. I mean verbatim, note for note. FF2's Temptation of the Princess, for example.

NaotaM

09-29-2008, 05:07 AM

Ps. I agree.

Yuki Kajiura = Meh.

Xenosaga I was better. :)

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 06:07 AM

LOL This constant "Kanno is not a true artist" elitist bawwing is always good for a laugh. Thanks for the neverending entertainment, guys. ;)

I never said that myself, but if there were varying "degrees" of artistry, then Kanno would lose points for plagiarism, as would James Horner or whoever's body of work you can find plagiarism in. An artist is someone who is original. It's as simple as that.

BTW, could someone please, PLEASE give me an example of this "Uematsu is a composer of emotions" bullshit I'm always hearing? Yes, the guy is good, but his work is hardly emotionally stirring at all, and not just cause of the crappy sound quality in all his ost's.

Emotions are subjective. I could find emotion in a Taco Bell commercial if I wanted to.

But if by "emotion" you're referring to the influences of programmatic and Romantic idioms where the music is meant to represent the emotions of the characters, then both Kanno and Uematsu fill that criteria nicely: strong melodies, push-pull chromatic progressions, broad-ranging dynamics. What they do and what film composers do for emotion has hardly changed since the Romantic era. Just because you don't find it emotionally stirring doesn't mean someone else won't.

Oh, and perhaps you snobs should take a closer look at Noby's work if you want real plagiarism. I mean verbatim, note for note.

I think I've taken a close enough look at Uematsu's body of work, moreso than most, because I've transcribed and arranged several of his works, and I can honestly say he is innocent of plagiarism. Maybe in order to prove your point you can post examples.

FF2's Temptation of the Princess, for example.

Unless it was in the original FF2, the Swan Lake thing is credited to Tsuyoshi Sekito and not Uematsu. It's better to be certain before accusing someone of plagiarism.

NaotaM

09-29-2008, 06:50 AM

Tsuyoshi Sekito? Which version? Dawn of Souls?

And by emotion, I don't mean any set in stone musical technique. I mean a ability to touch and connect with the song and it's message, it's harmony's ability to inspire and connect. Many of Kanno's work can make me cry almost immediately(Is it Real?, If You, be Human, Blue), others instill me with hope and faith(Love, Torch Song, Hikari Are, one of her j-pop ditties) and Uematsu doesn't do any of that for me. Not one piece. I know emotion is subjective, that's why I asked for examples to help me try to see what the big deal is.

Incidentally, that's also where I disagree most emphatically on the whole bit about Kanno not being an artist. Art inspires, touches, connects on a deeper level for the creator and spectator. Popularity has nothing to do with it, and neither does one's opinion on wheter she plagiarizes or not. Great artists steal ideas, remember? ;)

But seriously, Yoko Kanno is to me and many others an amazing artist and always will be. Just my opinion as you and Danny have yours.(and what you claim is not a fact, it's an opinion. Please don't confuse the two.)

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 07:50 AM

Tsuyoshi Sekito? Which version? Dawn of Souls?

I checked the game rip of the original FFII and surprisingly Swan Lake is in there, but it doesn't have the B section of the melody. In the Sekito remake it is changed to include the B section, so it's pretty much a given that it is not an act of plagiarism but they're just using Tchaikovsky to help score the game. Uematsu is hardly taking credit for that piece by my ears. There are several classical pieces in FF5 as well (Bizet's Habanera, Debussy's Arabesques.)

Kanno did something similar in Ishin no Arashi (also for the NES) using Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto note for note. It makes me wonder if there's a connection.

I know emotion is subjective, that's why I asked for examples to help me try to see what the big deal is.

But you already mentioned examples and shot them down haphazardly. No one is going to take you seriously if you call Aeris's theme emotionless without acknowledging how it might be emotional to others. In other words, whether or not you find Aeris's theme emotional, it is emotional to other people, therefore can be described as such whether you agree with them or not.

Example: I don't find Whitney Houston's singing in The Bodyguard emotional at all, but I wouldn't call it generally emotionless. That's because I realize that it affects others differently. It's actually a very emotional song, even if I don't like it.

Great artists steal ideas, remember? ;)

That quote, wherever it came from, has often been misused to justify plagiarism when its original purpose was to satirize how incorporating popular idioms (such as folk music) into your music gives your music character.

For example, Dvorak wrote Slavonic Dances in the Slavonic folk music idiom, but all those tunes are originally by him. He was just able to imitate the style and melodic patterns of those folk songs. Ideas don't come out of no where, they must be inspired.

Of course, composers will use folk songs verbatim from time to time, but those are the few times the composer will actually admit he borrowed those tunes. Brahms's Hungarian Dances come to mind. Why didn't he just compose original tunes instead? Well, that's actually more difficult, hence the expression "good composers borrow, great composers steal." Brahms's Hungarian melodies are borrowed. Dvorak's Slavonic melodies are so good they must obviously have been "stolen." :D

(and what you claim is not a fact, it's an opinion. Please don't confuse the two.)

What am I (or dannyfrench) claiming as fact where it concerns Kanno? We make theories, but I don't recall either of us stating something as fact other than that Kanno plagiarizes music. That is something we can all agree 100% on as fact because it has been proven empirically.

NaotaM

09-29-2008, 08:59 AM

How, exatcly, is the FF2 example different in that it's not plagiarism? What's the logic there? Cause it almost comes across as a double standard...

And I shot examples down cause those are the ones' everyone immediately pull out of there ass. Aerith's theme gets disregarded cause it's really just sappy and tinny. If people honestly think Uematsu's work is somehow emotionally stirring, at least describe how. I've listened to every single piece of his from FF1 to 10, and I haven't been driven to tears yet, so the challenge is help me see the light, if possible, by a highly doubt it is. I already know people feel that it's emotional, I'm asking how on earth they can possibly think such.

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 09:23 AM

How, exatcly, is the FF2 example different in that it's not plagiarism? What's the logic there? Cause it almost comes across as a double standard...

It might appear that way, but it is important to recognize harmless quoting and blatant plagiarism. Plagiarism occurs where there is an attempt to hide the original, to be intentionally deceitful. Uematsu was not being deceitful and made no attempt to hide the fact Tchaikovsky was the original composer. This happens all the time and is not a double standard, as I explained in the Hungarian Dances example. Borrowing is not plagiarizing because the composer is not claiming credit.

And I shot examples down cause those are the ones' everyone immediately pull out of there ass. Aerith's theme gets disregarded cause it's really just sappy and tinny. If people honestly think Uematsu's work is somehow emotionally stirring, at least describe how. I've listened to every single piece of his from FF1 to 10, and I haven't been driven to tears yet, so the challenge is help me see the light, if possible, by a highly doubt it is. I already know people feel that it's emotional, I'm asking how on earth they can possibly think such.

They "think such" because they have had different life experiences and different exposures to music from what you have had. You're looking for the impossible: an objective breakdown of the music as to what makes it emotional. I already gave you a starting point to work from (Romantic era music) but there's nothing I could say that will convince you of what truly makes a piece emotional.

Let me try though:
Aeris's theme uses a common chord progression often heard in movies for sentimental or "sad" themes - I iii IV I
There might be something inherently sad about that progression, I don't know. All I know is that James Horner uses it a ton, and he can write some heavily-emotional music.

karagiozis

09-29-2008, 09:46 AM

Almost all of the songs of Uematsu stir emotions in me. Some less, some more. Saying that, I do not believe that you should also feel the same in order for MY feelings to be true. On the other hand, I am indifferent for most of Kanno's songs. I haven't listened to all her works but at least Wolf's Rain and Cowboy Bebop and recently after a lot of here people suggested Escaflowne just won't do it for me. Maybe I like a couple of songs but after a while I forget I listen to anything (or in the case of some pop tunes I just feel annoyed).
Aeris theme or the original theme of which it evolved, Celes theme are very emotional to me and they make the game scenes extremely touching. The opera was more meant as a parody (if you played the game you will know why) and most of the melodies in the opera scene have a comic character (again excluding Aria Di Mezzo Charactere-Celes theme).
One Winged Angel speaks to the dark hidden voice inside me. :P As a side note, Uematsu has confessed that the intro is inspired by Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze (and the intro is the one part of the song that I do not like, at least the way it is conducted normally). I have listened to a fan arrangement where they scratch violins instead and it sounds much better. And the lyrics are stolen from Carl Orffs Carmina Burana that are in turn stolen from...Carmina Burana.
FF7 has parts from Haydn's creation but it is credited so.
And to add two more songs that are not connected to game experiences:
Lost Odyssey main theme: Yes, it is a game theme but I haven't played the game yet. Every time I listen to it I just cry.
From Phantasmagoria Lots of Little... It makes me imagine being under my blankets on a Rainy day, relaxing and reaching Nirvana... :P It has a sad tone but on the same time it is optimistic.
There you go, I just shared some very personal information. The fact that you are not feeling that way makes my feelings no less true. In the end, that is what art is, noone interprets it exactly the same way as someone else, its beauty lies in its subjectiveness.

NaotaM

09-29-2008, 08:58 PM

It might appear that way, but it is important to recognize harmless quoting and blatant plagiarism. Plagiarism occurs where there is an attempt to hide the original, to be intentionally deceitful. Uematsu was not being deceitful and made no attempt to hide the fact Tchaikovsky was the original composer. This happens all the time and is not a double standard, as I explained in the Hungarian Dances example. Borrowing is not plagiarizing because the composer is not claiming credit.

They "think such" because they have had different life experiences and different exposures to music from what you have had. You're looking for the impossible: an objective breakdown of the music as to what makes it emotional. I already gave you a starting point to work from (Romantic era music) but there's nothing I could say that will convince you of what truly makes a piece emotional.

Let me try though:
Aeris's theme uses a common chord progression often heard in movies for sentimental or "sad" themes - I iii IV I
There might be something inherently sad about that progression, I don't know. All I know is that James Horner uses it a ton, and he can write some heavily-emotional music.

:/ uhhuh riiiight. And according to who, exactly? Sources of proper credit given please, because wishful thinking on your part doesn't count. That's just, well, a double standard.

And just for the record, I'd speak for yourself about Kanno's "plaigarism" being empirricly proven, considering I've demanded proof in the past on this very thread and been flat-out refused on the perfectly respectable grounds that they
don't have to, which doesn't do wonders as far as having your argument taken seriously is concerned. :)

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 09:38 PM

:/ uhhuh riiiight. And according to who, exactly? Sources of proper credit given please, because wishful thinking on your part doesn't count. That's just, well, a double standard.

Is your main concern that Uematsu did not give credit to Tchaikovsky or Debussy or Mozart when he was quoting classical music? If that is your concern, then you are going to have a rough time with ANY composer who might quote, borrow, plagiarize, reference, be inspired by, etc. ANOTHER composer. Use some common sense and realize when a composer is being deceitful and when he/she is being respectful to his/her sources. You are only seeing the double standard because you haven't done any research on the hundreds of posts made earlier in this thread discussing this very subject.

I actually feel that Uematsu should have credited Tchaikovsky, but that's really up to the guy who makes those end credits sequences. Uematsu often cites Tchaikovsky as an influence in interviews so he's making no mystery of his sources unlike some people.

The only classical composer I've ever seen Kanno mention in an interview is Maurice Ravel, which explains several of her plagiarisms of Daphnis et Chloe, the String Quartet, Pavane for a Dead Princess, and Bolero. You'd think she'd mention John Williams from time to time having ripped off ET, Far and Away (http://rapidshare.com/files/123875253/verysimilar.zip.html), Empire of the Sun, and The Lost World.

And just for the record, I'd speak for yourself about Kanno's "plaigarism" being empirricly proven, considering I've demanded proof in the past on this very thread and been flat-out refused on the perfectly respectable grounds that they
don't have to, which doesn't do wonders as far as having your argument taken seriously is concerned. :)

We've posted many upon many of examples, the most obvious of which are those Elliot Goldenthal references in Sousei no Aquarion and Turn A Gundam where Kanno attempts to pass off Goldenthal's music as her own. If you go to the thread here http://ykdb.monkey-pirate.com/index.php?topic=8.0 you will see more examples, and I chime in with EVEN MORE later on there. Examples = evidence. This is the empirical evidence.

Now I've given you a starting point to work from here. Do some research of your own; seek out these scores and compare them for yourself and ask questions. I will be glad to answer them for you. But don't make up these lies about being "flat-out refused" because as you can see we are very eager to discuss this with you or anyone else. If you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and continue to troll, you will be ignored. Ask questions first, act smarmy later.

tangotreats

09-29-2008, 09:40 PM

NaotaM, we've already had two arguments in this thread, and I really don't want another, so please, take a step back and look at the things you're saying.

Incidentally, that's also where I disagree most emphatically on the whole bit about Kanno not being an artist. Art inspires, touches, connects on a deeper level for the creator and spectator. Popularity has nothing to do with it, and neither does one's opinion on wheter she plagiarizes or not. Great artists steal ideas, remember?[/QUOTE

If I read you a poem by Keats, and you cry, am I the artist, or is Keats? If I read you a line of Keats, a line of Shakespeare, a line of Byron, etc, and that made you cry - all I've done is make a medley of somebody else's work.

Not to say that diminished the emotional impact of the words, taken upon their own merits, but it is unfair and disrespectful to hail the messenger - rather than the creator - as the originator of those wonderful emotions.

Kanno makes me cry - the end titles of Escaflowne make me sob like a silly schoolgirl. That's about the only Kanno piece that I haven't found is plagiarised to some extent, but that's not the issue. Kanno's music *is* intensely emotional, and it's for those reasons that I love it and I continue to listen to it, and that I am constantly harassing CDJAPAN for my Kanno CDs when they take longer than ten minutes to be delivered.

But the inescapable fact is that she is speaking with somebody else's voices - or lots of people's voices at the same time - it is those voices, more specifically their owners - to whom you should be grateful, to whom you should show reverence and respect - not to the lying media thief who co-opted their thoughts for commercial gain.

Art does indeed inspire, connect, etc - with that I entirely agree with you. But in order to connect with the creator, one has to have some sense that the creator is an individual. That emotional connection can be a deeply personal, almost religious experience - which cannot truly be shared with what is effectively a large computer programmed with every score in existence and Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration manual, which joins them together according to symphonic theory and spits them out in powerful stereo sound.

[QUOTE]BTW, could someone please, PLEASE give me an example of this "Uematsu is a composer of emotions" bullshit I'm always hearing? Yes, the guy is good, but his work is hardly emotionally stirring at all, and not just cause of the crappy sound quality in all his ost's.

You object because you claim we are presenting opinions as fact, which in reality we haven't done. We've presented opinions as opinions (which you disagree with and therefore flame us) and facts as facts (although you refuse to acknowledge them as such - and even when you receive evidence, your get-out clause is that the evidence isn't acceptable to YOU - therefore it must be faulty - and anyway, it doesn't matter because we're such unbelievable snobs.)

"His work is hardly emotionally stiring" sounds suspiciously to me like YOUR OPINION that you have presented as fact. Oh, dear - isn't the exact same thing of which you are accusing us (unjustified) with such regularity?

And, "PLEASE give me an example of this "Uematsu is a composer of emotions" bullshit I'm always hearing?" - what can I say? You are effectively saying that anybody who finds Uematsu emotionally charged is full of bullshit (a paraphrase, but one that I'm sure captures your meaning clearly enough) and then you go on to "demand" proof. Given your bias, combined with your refusal to acknowledge that a) some things are true even if you don't believe them to be, and b) something subjective cannot be proven. Can I prove to you that I love my girlfriend? Can I prove it to you sufficiently well that you would start to love her too? No - I can tell you that I do; I can even tell you the reasons that I do, but they're my reasons, not yours - so you're bound not to appreciate them. It's human nature, my friend - emotion is in the eye of the beholder. There really is no way to specify emotion mathematically (although kudos to Streich for trying, in the most un-biased, simplified way possible - which you have also poo-poo'd) so these constant expectations for proof are not only annoying and unreasonable, but they're totally impossible to fulfill.

If I could swap minds with you for a day and get you to listen to a bunch of Uematsu, and you would have me listen to a bunch of Kanno, maybe we would understand each other. Until that becomes possible, shall we just accept that you think Uematsu is un-emotional and others don't? For no reason other than that those are the thoughts we have?

Oh, and perhaps you snobs should take a closer look at Noby's work if you want real plagiarism. I mean verbatim, note for note. FF2's Temptation of the Princess, for example.

I'm not familiar with this, so I won't comment directly - except that I implicitly trust the interpretation of our esteemed musicologist and composer Streich.

It is, as he has noted, important to note the differences between homage, quotation, and plagiarism. Your "evidence" - which amounts to nothing more than that a familiar melody has appeared in a piece of music on a Uematsu CD - is hardly worthwhile when compared to the gentleman's countless hours of completely original material.

Example: In my last film score, I quoted Benny Herrmann in the end titles. It was intended as a little film music joke because the film had Hitchcock overtones. I also did it because I love Herrmann and I wanted to pay tribute to him. I quoted two notes and a chord progression. In a whole score that was otherwise exclusively my music, and completely my style. Even when I was quoting Herrmann, the orchestration and style was mine. Did I plagiarise? I think not.

Another example: A few years ago I wrote a tone poem about a romantic experience I had in the USA - I won't go into a lot of detail, but I courted a lady in Georgia and spent two weeks with her (my first time overseas) - the relationship failed due to the distance involved and other matters that aren't relevant to this discussion, but when I got home I was inspired to write a piece about my experience. I co-opted the song "Georgia On My Mind" (the official state song) and weaved the melody through my piece. It meant something. It was an idee-fix. I also quoted (less completely) from a number of other pieces that had special significance. I quoted a Faure chord progression from his Requiem (during the line "May Angels Lead You Into Paradise") because that piece was used in 28 Days Later, which I was watching the evening she ended the relationship, and I weaved in the Georgia theme, and quoted two notes from Dvorak's 9th Symphony (The New World) and played both at the same time - suggesting that she was an angel who led me to paradise - the New World, America, but I accepted that the relationship was over... ETCETERA. I stole nothing. The piece was mine - the way it developed was mine, but I paid tribute to composers I loved and pieces I adored, and I incorporated some ideas from them because they contributed to my narrative. The way I joined them together was typical of my sense of humour (mixing a zombie flick with the Catholic Mass, a Czech black-music-inspired symphony, and a Christmas carol, and finding in them only a love story.) Most of them were so deeply hidden in amongst the undergrowth of my own style that most people I played the piece to didn't hear them all - but in my notes to accompany the piece, I listed each and every one of the pieces I had quoted, and profusely thanked their respective composers for the wonderful parts their music had played in my life.

Please, put your hand upon your heart, look further than this argument, and your desire for me to me wrong at any cost - look towards truth and unbiased opinion - and tell me if you think I was guilty of plagiarism.

I'm tired and I'll finish this tomorrow - please, stay cool folks - and have a nice evening. :)

Ladykiller

09-29-2008, 09:56 PM

Haha, what's up with the long posts? Don't you guys have anything better to do than argue? Back to the topic.

I admire both Uematsu and Yoko Kanno's works. They've created such amazing and noteworthy music that I simply cannot choose one over the other.

Though it's interesting to note that I wasn't exactly impressed by Uematsu's recent work like Blue Dragon. In my opinion his best work lies in the early final fantasy games - more specifically his compositions for FFVI remains his best work to date for me. On the other hand, Yoko Kanno has never disappointed me, her style of music is always fresh, diverse, and very appealing to me.

Oh and please, I like to see a lot of you guys' opinion as well. But if some of you are just going to take this and completely dissect it into hundreds of pieces, and write essay long posts about it...then forget it, because I'm not in the mood for arguments. On that note, just simply state your opinions and back them up, no need for insanely long ass posts guys. ;)

tangotreats

09-29-2008, 10:03 PM

But

Hmm...

if some of you

Who would that be?

are just

Yes...?

going to take this and completely dissect

You think?

it into hundreds of pieces

Would we?!

In all seriousness, you won't get a long ass post unless you say things which require one, which you haven't. ;)

I certainly have better things to do than argue - though I tend to think of it more as a discussion... Though I suspect there are parties contributing to this thread who are less interested in discussing, and more interested in generating a blazing row and generally causing as much annoyance as humanly possible. There's a word that describes people who do that sort of thing on Internet forums... ;)

Though it's interesting to note that I wasn't exactly impressed by Uematsu's recent work like Blue Dragon. In my opinion his best work lies in the early final fantasy games - more specifically his compositions for FFVI remains his best work to date for me. On the other hand, Yoko Kanno has never disappointed me, her style of music is always fresh, diverse, and very appealing to me.

Likewise, I prefer early Uematsu, and I'm definitely with you on FF6. SUPERB piece of work.

Kanno never disappoints me in an aural sense - but she does in an individual, artistic sense - that's the crux of most of this argument.

She still cranks out a crackerjack tune, and from a technical perspective, she is easily more impressive (and more consistent) than Uematsu. But I like Uematsu because he speaks with his own voice - and even if he occasionallly writes pure, unadulterated shite, it's still from the heart. :)

Ladykiller

09-29-2008, 10:21 PM

But I like Uematsu because he speaks with his own voice - and even if he occasionallly writes pure, unadulterated shite, it's still from the heart. :)

LOL, really loved that last part there. xD

And here I was thinking I was such a hardcore anime/game music geek...my eyes literally widened after seeing all of these posts. Nonetheless, I've listened to my fair share of rpg and anime music, so let's discuss then! And regarding trolls, I've also had my fair share of them in the design site I go to - quite a pity that there seems to be a lot of them here too. haha

Touching on a slightly different subject, I'm curious as to why this thread asks us to compare Uematsu and Kanno. The differences in their styles is not only striking, but considering that they both compose music for different mediums of media, (primarily Uematsu leaning towards videogames and Kanno on anime) it's not exactly a fair comparison at all.

Why not Uematsu vs. Mitsuda? Or even better, Mitsuda vs. Sakimoto? Love those three so much, though I must admit...I've always had a soft spot for Sakimoto's music. Nothing beats having warm fuzzy feelings while feeling epic at the same time. :)

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 10:28 PM

Touching on a slightly different subject, I'm curious as to why this thread asks us to compare Uematsu and Kanno. The differences in their styles is not only striking, but considering that they both compose music for different mediums of media, (primarily Uematsu leaning towards videogames and Kanno on anime) it's not exactly a fair comparison at all.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. All things considered, Uematsu and Kanno are extremely similar. They both compose in practically any style of music, mainly pop songs and orchestral music, and even though there are differences between anime and games, the purpose of the music is the same.

If you want to get specific, you could compare Kanno's After All song to Uematsu's Eyes on Me, or Dance of Curse to Liberi Fatali and have opportunity for some lively discussion as to which you prefer. And as mentioned earlier, both seem to hold Tchaikovsky in high regard.

But yeah, if you want to concentrate on the J-pop aspect, there is a huge gap since Uematsu is mainly a classical rock kind of guy whereas Kanno is much more modern.

tangotreats

09-29-2008, 10:30 PM

Back in February, one particular contributor to this thread (by almost all accounts, a nice guy, witty, funny, and intelligent,) had the following to say on that matter:

It's daft to compare the two because they are totally different stylistically, and you will get nothing here but personal dislikes and likes. It's definitely no definitive confirmation of one musician's superiority over another. It's a popularity contest. Since when to the most deserving people win popularity contests?

I think it was an odd selection - I guess it's because they're probably the two names that are closest to "household" names around these parts. Everybody knows FF something, and (almost, it seems) everybody knows Kanno. This thread seemed right from the start to be a case of "Which is better? Chalk or cheese???!!?!" closely followed by "CHEESE is better because it tastes nice and chalk tastes gritty and horrid" and "CHALK is better because how am I supposed to write on a blackboard with CHEESE, you stupid morons!" and other such responses... It's absolutely insane. :)

I do think it's a good thing though, that months after the poll closed and the original poster forgot this ever existed, it's still generating discussion, it's still stimulating interest in music, and it's still inspiring some incredibly emotional responses - ironically, in a conversation that was initially largely fuelled by people stating that musicological discussions about music were snobby and elitist, we now have a a massively diverse, inclusive set of thoughts buzzing around in here - even if they're not always in agreement with each other, you have to admit there's a lot more going on in here than the usual "DUUUDE I LOVE YOU FOR POSTING THIS I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES!!!!111" that you'd usually get... ;)

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 10:40 PM

If the original intent of the comparison (poll) was to decide who is the better composer, then obviously Uematsu wins by a long shot. Kanno isn't even in the race, she cheated and was disqualified.

Stylistically, I see them as similar, but I admit I might be influenced by the fact I cherry pick the tracks I like to compare. If you take into account that a good portion of Uematsu's music is written on a lousy 2-bit synth and Kanno's is ripped off from pop songs I've never even heard of, then yeah, there's little comparison to be made there. I am orchestrally-biased, for the most part, and I keep forgetting that when everyone is talking about Kanno they are usually not talking about her orchestral output.

Ladykiller

09-29-2008, 11:06 PM

But yeah, if you want to concentrate on the J-pop aspect, there is a huge gap since Uematsu is mainly a classical rock kind of guy whereas Kanno is much more modern.

I am orchestrally-biased, for the most part, and I keep forgetting that when everyone is talking about Kanno they are usually not talking about her orchestral output.

Well, that explains everything then.

Nonetheless, I still see their styles as very different. I have not really paid attention to Kanno's orchestral music - I mostly know her for her compositions in anime such as Cowboy Bebop, Wolf's Rain etc. From what I observed, I have only seen Uematsu on the J-Pop scene with only a handful of songs that I would consider "J-Pop" anyway.

If you're talking about about their similarities in orchestral music such as FFVIII's Liberi Fatali and Escaflowne's Dance of Curse, then point taken alright. But give me a song from Uematsu that's like Kanno's Tank! Or better yet, give me a song from Kanno that resembles Uematsu's One Winged Angel. There's certainly quite a difference in both of their styles, their distinct styles is the reason they're highly regarded and even why we are talking about them now.

streichorchester

09-29-2008, 11:30 PM

Or better yet, give me a song from Kanno that resembles Uematsu's One Winged Angel.

Dance of Curse
Epistle
Black Escaflowne
Aquarius
Exodus
BLAQARION
Final Shore - Ah, to meet again (from Turn A Gundam)

The orchestral music IS where we can make the comparison, the jazz and J-pop is not. That's what I was saying.

NaotaM

09-30-2008, 02:13 AM

NaotaM, we've already had two arguments in this thread, and I really don't want another, so please, take a step back and look at the things you're saying.

Please take a step back and realise you're full of shit.

[QUOTE]Incidentally, that's also where I disagree most emphatically on the whole bit about Kanno not being an artist. Art inspires, touches, connects on a deeper level for the creator and spectator. Popularity has nothing to do with it, and neither does one's opinion on wheter she plagiarizes or not. Great artists steal ideas, remember?[/QUOTE

If I read you a poem by Keats, and you cry, am I the artist, or is Keats? If I read you a line of Keats, a line of Shakespeare, a line of Byron, etc, and that made you cry - all I've done is make a medley of somebody else's work.

Not to say that diminished the emotional impact of the words, taken upon their own merits, but it is unfair and disrespectful to hail the messenger - rather than the creator - as the originator of those wonderful emotions.

Kanno makes me cry - the end titles of Escaflowne make me sob like a silly schoolgirl. That's about the only Kanno piece that I haven't found is plagiarised to some extent, but that's not the issue. Kanno's music *is* intensely emotional, and it's for those reasons that I love it and I continue to listen to it, and that I am constantly harassing CDJAPAN for my Kanno CDs when they take longer than ten minutes to be delivered.

But the inescapable fact is that she is speaking with somebody else's voices - or lots of people's voices at the same time - it is those voices, more specifically their owners - to whom you should be grateful, to whom you should show reverence and respect - not to the lying media thief who co-opted their thoughts for commercial gain.

If it's inescapable fact, that how is it so hard to prove?
Show me the where the bassline is exactly the same. Do it. Where's the same chorus? Same chords?

You accuse the woman of stealing whole parts of songs verbatim(then idoitically gloss over when Noby does jt, saying it's nothing more than "borrowing a melody", but I'll get to that thinly-veiled bullshit later.), when what you actually show with your "examples" is that she writes songs that simply sound similar TO YOU to something else. You present examples that happen to be acceptable TO YOU and not to me, then get in my face in that your opinion that they are clearly plagiarised is fact and demean me because I'm just so close-minded to recognise them as such.

Art does indeed inspire, connect, etc - with that I entirely agree with you. But in order to connect with the creator, one has to have some sense that the creator is an individual. That emotional connection can be a deeply personal, almost religious experience - which cannot truly be shared with what is effectively a large computer programmed with every score in existence and Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration manual, which joins them together according to symphonic theory and spits them out in powerful stereo sound.

"You object because you claim we are presenting opinions as fact, which in reality we haven't done."

FALSE

"That emotional connection can be a deeply personal, almost religious experience - which cannot truly be shared with what is effectively a large computer programmed with every score in existence and Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration manual, which joins them together according to symphonic theory and spits them out in powerful stereo sound."

You, passing off your opinion of art and Kanno's supposed method as fact. I'll hunt down older examples later. It won't be hard. :)

We've presented opinions as opinions (which you disagree with and therefore flame us) and facts as facts (although you refuse to acknowledge them as such - and even when you receive evidence, your get-out clause is that the evidence isn't acceptable to YOU - therefore it must be faulty - and anyway, it doesn't matter because we're such unbelievable snobs.)
Again, FALSE.

Your evidence is faulty because it's not fact but happens to be acceptable to you, you believe it and thus it must be true and anyone who can't see it is just an uneducated little moron.

"Psh, who could think Dance of Curse is true art? It's CLEARLY just BLAHBLAHBLAH with a few differences here and there. I mean, they sound so alike to me and some other people, it MUST be true. Wh can't you see that, you peons?"

Yeah....sure.

"His work is hardly emotionally stiring" sounds suspiciously to me like YOUR OPINION that you have presented as fact. Oh, dear - isn't the exact same thing of which you are accusing us (unjustified) with such regularity?

And, "PLEASE give me an example of this "Uematsu is a composer of emotions" bullshit I'm always hearing?" - what can I say? You are effectively saying that anybody who finds Uematsu emotionally charged is full of bullshit (a paraphrase, but one that I'm sure captures your meaning clearly enough) and then you go on to "demand" proof. Given your bias, combined with your refusal to acknowledge that a) some things are true even if you don't believe them to be, and b) something subjective cannot be proven. Can I prove to you that I love my girlfriend? Can I prove it to you sufficiently well that you would start to love her too? No - I can tell you that I do; I can even tell you the reasons that I do, but they're my reasons, not yours - so you're bound not to appreciate them. It's human nature, my friend - emotion is in the eye of the beholder. There really is no way to specify emotion mathematically (although kudos to Streich for trying, in the most un-biased, simplified way possible - which you have also poo-poo'd) so these constant expectations for proof are not only annoying and unreasonable, but they're totally impossible to fulfill.

Actually, I acknowledge very much things are subjective. That's how this whole thing started; me disagreeing with your fiercly biased, entitled opinion that she's guilty of plagiarism and your insistence that it's somehow fact because you say so, despite the fact that you can't prove shit.

And keep your words out of my mouth. I'm asking how anyone finds Uematsu's work emotional, that's it. I honestly wouldn't care at all if the man wasn't obscenely overrated and if I didn't hear compliments of this nature all the fucking time. I heard most of his work, I disagree, so I asked for other people's perspective, if for no other reason than curiosity's sake.

If I could swap minds with you for a day and get you to listen to a bunch of Uematsu, and you would have me listen to a bunch of Kanno, maybe we would understand each other. Until that becomes possible, shall we just accept that you think Uematsu is un-emotional and others don't? For no reason other than that those are the thoughts we have?

I'm not familiar with this, so I won't comment directly - except that I implicitly trust the interpretation of our esteemed musicologist and composer Streich.

It is, as he has noted, important to note the differences between homage, quotation, and plagiarism. Your "evidence" - which amounts to nothing more than that a familiar melody has appeared in a piece of music on a Uematsu CD - is hardly worthwhile when compared to the gentleman's countless hours of completely original material.

You'll never, EVER have any idea this paragraph had me cracking up. "Nothing more" than just what you accuse Kanno of doing, ya mean? Except that this is worse, because it's the very same melody, note for note, of a copywrited tune. Not a nod, not a pastiche, just the same fucking song stiched in. Oh and it happens to be ok because Noby says he's heard of and likes the original composer and is somehow justified. Oh, well that's just fine then. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Again, you dissapoint and greatly entertain me, dannyfrench.

What's the difference from homage, quotations and plagiarism? I'll tell you: not a goddamn thing. Only with homages, you can try to pass off your obvious copying as "affectionate" and "respectful". Try and fail. And hey, like plagiarism*hur hur*, one person's definition of an homage will be very different from anothers'. Read; opinion.

Considering the topic at hand, I beg of you; stop embarassing yourself. Claiming that some composers are somehow in the right by labeling their copying "homages" and harmless "quotations" is just a petty, thinly-veiled expression of bias. Which wouldn't be so bad if you hadn't already shot yourself in both feet with your inflammatory definitons of what entails plagiarism. :)

Example: In my last film score, I quoted Benny Herrmann in the end titles. It was intended as a little film music joke because the film had Hitchcock overtones. I also did it because I love Herrmann and I wanted to pay tribute to him. I quoted two notes and a chord progression. In a whole score that was otherwise exclusively my music, and completely my style. Even when I was quoting Herrmann, the orchestration and style was mine. Did I plagiarise? I think not.

Another example: A few years ago I wrote a tone poem about a romantic experience I had in the USA - I won't go into a lot of detail, but I courted a lady in Georgia and spent two weeks with her (my first time overseas) - the relationship failed due to the distance involved and other matters that aren't relevant to this discussion, but when I got home I was inspired to write a piece about my experience. I co-opted the song "Georgia On My Mind" (the official state song) and weaved the melody through my piece. It meant something. It was an idee-fix. I also quoted (less completely) from a number of other pieces that had special significance. I quoted a Faure chord progression from his Requiem (during the line "May Angels Lead You Into Paradise") because that piece was used in 28 Days Later, which I was watching the evening she ended the relationship, and I weaved in the Georgia theme, and quoted two notes from Dvorak's 9th Symphony (The New World) and played both at the same time - suggesting that she was an angel who led me to paradise - the New World, America, but I accepted that the relationship was over... ETCETERA. I stole nothing. The piece was mine - the way it developed was mine, but I paid tribute to composers I loved and pieces I adored, and I incorporated some ideas from them because they contributed to my narrative. The way I joined them together was typical of my sense of humour (mixing a zombie flick with the Catholic Mass, a Czech black-music-inspired symphony, and a Christmas carol, and finding in them only a love story.) Most of them were so deeply hidden in amongst the undergrowth of my own style that most people I played the piece to didn't hear them all - but in my notes to accompany the piece, I listed each and every one of the pieces I had quoted, and profusely thanked their respective composers for the wonderful parts their music had played in my life.

Oh, well I was going to accuse YOU of being a commercial, music stealing hack, but you say it isn't plagiarism because you claim to like so and so, so it must be ok. Ah, so there's the secret; you can "co-opt" copywrighted songs into yours and it's a-ok, just say that it isn't stealing and throw in some irrellivant backstory and bullshit claiming it's your style, and you're home free. Genius. :)

Really, I get it now. You "incorporate ideas",

"But the inescapable fact is that she is speaking with somebody else's voices - or lots of people's voices at the same time - it is those voices, more specifically their owners - to whom you should be grateful, to whom you should show reverence and respect"

into your "own style" and make it your own, and if anyone asks, just say you used the copied material because you liked it. Airtight. *appluads*

Please, put your hand upon your heart, look further than this argument, and your desire for me to me wrong at any cost - look towards truth and unbiased opinion - and tell me if you think I was guilty of plagiarism.

I desire nothing, you've made it too easy and nothing good in this world comes easy.

I'm tired and I'll finish this tomorrow - please, stay cool folks - and have a nice evening. :)

Honestly, there are two things tat really kill me about all this and that keeps me coming back for the abundant lulz. Well, this, and coming back to download more Kanno. ;)

1. Considering all it takes for you and your beloved Striech to accept something isn't plagiarism is for the artist in question to say that it isn't(instead of, you know, not plagiarizing anyone), I'd just like to point out that none of us speaks for Kanno. Not me, not you. We have no idea who or what influences her, we have no idea how she works or what her method is, we have no idea what goes through her head during the creative process.

Fuck, danny, she may have dozens of inspiring little backstories behind her songs on hand for handily justifying what you simply believe she's guilty of, just like you. Isn't that sweet?

Yeah she's mysterious and weird, but hey, she's japanese. :)

Point is, make sure the facts you are so adamant in believing you've pointed out actually come from somewhere and are actually facts before letting all that theoretical diarrhea spew from your e-mouth.

2. Here's where your entire argument is fundamentally WRONG: You say you've made facts, insurmountable truth that Kanno plagiarizes the majority of her orchestral work. I come in, disagree and propose that it's not true and your examples aren't facts, but that you believe they're true, ie; your OPINIONS.

After a long back and forth where I "demand" proof, since how's that so hard if it's fact, Striech finally provides me examples and tells me to listen, do reasearch, and decide for myself if she's guilty.

As in, come to my own "judgements" that may or may not differ from your judgements.

As in, "subjective opinions".

As in, "not facts".

As in, "not emperically proven plagiarism". :)

As in, shut the fuck up already, you insufferable(here comes the magic word) snobs.

That's all, you're done and so am I. I won't be replying further. Have a wonderful life.

Edit: I fucked up seperating the quote from the bulk of my response and I don't feel like bothering to fix it. Eat me.

streichorchester

09-30-2008, 02:38 AM

We have no idea who or what influences her, we have no idea how she works or what her method is, we have no idea what goes through her head during the creative process.

That's true. We don't know what Kanno is thinking when she rips off the pieces, just as we don't know if she has 10 ghostwriters doing it all for her or not. There's a lack of information on her part, and her interviews tell us nothing. This is partly due to biased interviewers with poor interviewing skills not asking probing questions. The most someone like me can learn about her through her music is yes, she studied orchestration, she studied Ravel, she studied John Williams and Elliot Goldenthal, and she does not want anyone to know she did these things. She doesn't talk about it. That means there's room for discussion, which is what we've been doing. It's only natural that lack of information leads to conjecture and theories.

As in, come to my own "judgements" that may or may not differ from your judgements.

I'd like to see your judgement on the comparison I just linked you to. Jig from Turn A Gundam is grade A plagiarism on John Williams's score to Far and Away. If I had the scores I could post them and point to where the similarities are, but I'm fairly confident in the pattern-recognizing abilities of the average human, and thus it's more a matter of common sense than it is a matter of point by point debate.

NaotaM

09-30-2008, 06:17 AM

That's true. We don't know what Kanno is thinking when she rips off the pieces, just as we don't know if she has 10 ghostwriters doing it all for her or not. There's a lack of information on her part, and her interviews tell us nothing. This is partly due to biased interviewers with poor interviewing skills not asking probing questions. The most someone like me can learn about her through her music is yes, she studied orchestration, she studied Ravel, she studied John Williams and Elliot Goldenthal, and she does not want anyone to know she did these things. She doesn't talk about it. That means there's room for discussion, which is what we've been doing. It's only natural that lack of information leads to conjecture and theories.

I'd like to see your judgement on the comparison I just linked you to. Jig from Turn A Gundam is grade A plagiarism on John Williams's score to Far and Away. If I had the scores I could post them and point to where the similarities are, but I'm fairly confident in the pattern-recognizing abilities of the average human, and thus it's more a matter of common sense than it is a matter of point by point debate.

Jig is certainly strikingly similar, much faster and a bit more adventurous, and much shorter, but yes, it's an obvious nod to Far and Away's opening piece. But I hesitate to call it plagiarism in the same way you would for any other composer who "quotes" or references someone else. The melody's nearly the same, but it feels different, it feels like it's own work, like her work. It's too late here on the east coast for me to really elaborate, but it's clearly a piece she's made her own, and if you played them side by side, I'd know the difference. That's basically how I feel about Kanno, at least the works I honestly see the comparisons in. :)

She's even cited original composers in some albums, Mizu No Onna, for instance. Heikinritsu Clavier and the Piano Sonata pieces are either Beethoven or Bach, can't recall.

I don't think Kanno's lack of information is really her fault. Perhaps if she's better pressed by a decent interviewer for a change, she'd be more forthcoming about her influences. She obviously has many, as evident in her some of her Koei works.

You'll hear an echo of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries within the stentorian "Haouden Suite" (a rearranged medley of the main themes from Haouden), an ode to Copland's Appalachian Spring in the "Battlefield of Light," a nod to Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathrustra in "Encampment Under the Moon," a graceful dancing Chopin-esque air in "The Wind Orchid," a resonance with Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet in "Spring Waves," and a light Stravinskian touch in the "The Warhawk".

On an interesting sidenote, I looked up Far and Away on a youtube video of some jap sitcom called Nodame, and after listening and watching asians play piano and smack each other for whatever reason, I clicked another Nodame video featuring Beethoven's Pathetique Second Movement and recognised the same exact melody from a Hitachi commercial piece by Kanno. Her's is much slower and without piano, cello....I think, with maybe some synth. Again, an obvious nod, different, but also the same.

I wonder if Blond was inspired by anything....

streichorchester

09-30-2008, 07:02 AM

But I hesitate to call it plagiarism in the same way you would for any other composer who "quotes" or references someone else.

Then what we can agree on is that it is 100% certain Kanno modeled her music on John Williams's piece, and whether or not she intended to stick so close to the original was completely her discretion. It happens all the time in Hollywood in the use of temptracking. But from this we can learn more about Kanno's influences, and maybe predict what other works of hers have been modeled after.

She's even cited original composers in some albums, Mizu No Onna, for instance. Heikinritsu Clavier and the Piano Sonata pieces are either Beethoven or Bach, can't recall.

Cited them as in gave them credit?

I don't think Kanno's lack of information is really her fault. Perhaps if she's better pressed by a decent interviewer for a change, she'd be more forthcoming about her influences. She obviously has many, as evident in her some of her Koei works.

Well, maybe it's not her fault, or maybe it is. It's very possible she just doesn't want to incriminate herself by divulging her compositional secrets.

You'll hear an echo of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries within the stentorian "Haouden Suite" (a rearranged medley of the main themes from Haouden), an ode to Copland's Appalachian Spring in the "Battlefield of Light," a nod to Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathrustra in "Encampment Under the Moon," a graceful dancing Chopin-esque air in "The Wind Orchid," a resonance with Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet in "Spring Waves," and a light Stravinskian touch in the "The Warhawk".
Haouden Suite: Yes, contains some Wagner and a little of the Witches Dance from Puccini's La Villi, maybe even a little of Vaughan Williams's Sea Symphony (see the scherzo movement)
Battlefield of Light: There's a little Copland in there, and Holst's Jupiter, but I mainly think there's a STRONG resemblance to John Williams's NBC News theme (The Mission)
Encampment Under the Moon: This doesn't remind me of Also Sprach Zarathrustra as much as something else I can't recall at the moment. I'm thinking Bizet
The Wind Orchid: It's Chopin-esque, definitely
Spring Waves: You got it, it's Romeo and Juliet
The Warhawk: The dance-like melody about 30 seconds in is largely based on the Neopolitan Dance from Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, so you have the country of origin right :)

Funny enough, I wouldn't call any of these plagiarisms, at least they're not the same Grade A plagiarisms found in her later works.

I wonder if Blond was inspired by anything....

Blond is the type of music you hear in Golden Age film scores, especially those by Victor Young or Max Steiner, so it's very possible either one of those, or many others along those lines, could be the models. I'm not well versed enough in that era to name any specific examples. 2:18 does sound a bit like Prokofiev. But the violin dominance is extremely Victor Young-ish.

tangotreats

09-30-2008, 09:25 AM

Since your argument has made an illustrious return to the personal insults and childish attacks, I will cheerfully tell you that you have now proven yourself beyond any shadow of doubt, an idiot, and so unless you can start acting like a grown up again, I will engage you no further after this response.

You cannot understand, you will not, and you are biased to the extent where you are literally incapable of any sensible discussion. I will, however, conclude my discussion with you with the following:

Considering all it takes for you and your beloved Striech to accept something isn't plagiarism is for the artist in question to say that it isn't(instead of, you know, not plagiarizing anyone), I'd just like to point out that none of us speaks for Kanno. Not me, not you. We have no idea who or what influences her, we have no idea how she works or what her method is, we have no idea what goes through her head during the creative process.

Through these broken sentences, I suspect that what you're saying it that it is up to a thief to decide whether or not he or she is a thief. Not the person who has seen them run away with their property, or the casual observer who notices that every one of their posessions is engraved with somebody else's initials.

Influences, and creative process, as we have already discussed at length, are two completely different things - stealing thirty seconds, wholsesale and untouched, of somebody else's composition - in its ENTIRETY, cannot be argued as anything other than plagiarism.

Pages and pages ago, you actually said something like "I apologies - I humbly accept that Kanno is guilty of plagiarism having done research / listened to your samples" - I can't be bothered to go back and find the original quite, but it's something along those lines. Why do your sensible opinions only last a few minutes before they are veering off once again into nutcase territory?

Point is, make sure the facts you are so adamant in believing you've pointed out actually come from somewhere and are actually facts before letting all that theoretical diarrhea spew from your e-mouth.

Tell me once again why I am forced to justify *anything* to you. And furthermore, tell me where I have mistaken theory for fact. The only place this has happened so far in this discussion, has been in YOUR OWN POSTS!

Do you think you could stop attacking me, swearing, making comments that have nothing to do with my opinion, and everything to do with your increasing, personal, irrelevant, dislike of my character, etc?

don't think Kanno's lack of information is really her fault. Perhaps if she's better pressed by a decent interviewer for a change, she'd be more forthcoming about her influences. She obviously has many, as evident in her some of her Koei works.

With this, I agree - Kanno's interviews seem to be conducted by people more interested in ice cream and photography than they are in music. Perhaps she would be more forthcoming if she were asked the "right" questions. Perhaps she is deliberately answering the questions the way she has been, for fear that if she begins (god forbid) talking about music in musical terms, she may be branded an elitist snob!

Fuck, danny, she may have dozens of inspiring little backstories behind her songs on hand for handily justifying what you simply believe she's guilty of, just like you. Isn't that sweet?

They're different kinds of technique though. I know you'll say "You're a hypocrite - you're guilty of plagiarism but you try to justify your way out of it, at the same time moaning about Kanno" but I genuinely beileve this. Beethoven quotes God Save The King. Tchaikovsky quotes the Russian National Anthem. Vaughan-Williams writes a piece based on a theme by Talis. Rachmaninov writes variations on a theme of Paganini. They are justified, and credited, and incorporated into a piece that is uniquely theirs. Nobody pretends to have written stuff they haven't.

You can't tell me that Kanno chucking in thirty seconds - VERBATIM - of Titus, into Aquarion, or any of the other millions of cases where she has simply copied and pasted - are motivated by any poetic sensibility or spark of thematic genius. Much more likely they're inspired by laziness, lack of inspiration, or lack of caring.

No, I can't prove this correct. Can *you* prove it wrong?

(And by proof, I mean something other than you shouting at me, telling me I'm full of shit, and that my argument is worthless because [bluster bluster bluster] I don't agree with yours.)

I see that you are now engaging Streich in a sensible, adult discussion. Is it too much to ask that you afford me the same courtesy?

Thank you. :)

If there's a backstory that justifies throwing music from

tangotreats

09-30-2008, 08:43 PM

This is going to sound wussy. Naota - I know obviously you don't like me, or what I have to say. Please give me some slack. I can't take a row right now.

Kossage

10-03-2008, 05:49 PM

As far as the poll is concerned, I like both composers, so I can't really choose as much as I try. Although Uematsu is the more original composer, I also like Kanno's music (or adaptation of others' music, however you prefer to say it).

Uematsu has composed some stirring pieces, particularly in FF6, and many of his tunes are memorable as well as emotional. I don't mind the synth sound (maybe because I grew up playing games like Turrican 2 that had such sounds so it doesn't bother me), but I certainly won't object to hearing his compositions performed by real orchestras and choirs.

Speaking of which, I'd be curious of finding out what pieces of Uematsu have been deemed bad. I've seen some people mention about Uematsu's "shitty" music, but I'd like to hear what pieces in particular are you referring to and what makes them seem so awful to you (the synth, the writing itself or...?). Although there are some Uematsu pieces that I haven't really cared about, I haven't thought of any of them as "shitty" or anything like that, and that's why I got curious of some of the comments in this thread.

As for Kanno, I like her for delivering so many beautiful pieces of music (with great orchestral and choral writing) for shows such as Wolf's Rain. When I watched certain anime series, I noticed that several of them had gorgeous music. As I checked the composer for each of those shows, I was surprised to see Kanno in all of them. There were a couple of anime series that I probably wouldn't have watched if I hadn't heard Kanno's music beforehand (which made me want to see how well they'd work in the context of a series' story).

It is, however, unfortunate how much she seems to have plagiarized. I was aware of some of the things mentioned in this thread, but I never would've guessed how much of her music it had really affected. That's why I'm glad that people such as dannyfrench and streichorchester have brought these influences into light and given evidence for it as well. Thanks, guys, I appreciate your hard work and your detailed posts that are interesting to read.

Although it saddens me that many of the Kanno pieces that I liked are taken from elsewhere, this thread has also led me to Kanno's sources, and it's kind of like "hearing a sequel" in a way, and I've discovered many composers (or some of their works that I hadn't yet heard) thanks to the examples posted in this thread. It has also expanded my musical knowledge, so in that case this thread has served its purpose, and I hope it does the same for many others who are interested in music and Kanno and her influences.

And yet, despite all the evidence, I still like Kanno's music and her touches and adaptations of other composers' works. Although the thread has made me more aware of some of her borrowings, I still like listening to her music.

BTW, could someone please, PLEASE give me an example of this "Uematsu is a composer of emotions" bullshit I'm always hearing? Yes, the guy is good, but his work is hardly emotionally stirring at all, and not just cause of the crappy sound quality in all his ost's.

Name one "emotional" piece for me, please. Just one. And I'll scratch off a few examples right now.

One Winged Angel: Great boss theme and it gets you pumped, but that's just what a boss theme should do to begin with. Nice piece, but again, didn't change my life.

The Opera pieces from FF6: Honestly, a lot of Uematsu's older pieces don't really work for me at all. Outside of the nostalgic factor, I just don't hear the big deal. Unfortunately, I got to these songs too late to appreciate whatever quality they have.

Well, I'll discuss these two particular compositions that you mentioned. I find Uematsu's music quite emotional. It doesn't necessarily always hit its mark for me, but quite often it does. These two pieces are part of the group of tunes that do at least for me.

One-Winged Angel: When I saw my friend play through FF7, this piece was totally unexpected. Before that point I hadn't heard any real choir in a game, and that's why it was quite fascinating to hear something like that in a video game. It elevated the battle sequence and complemented the story in its ferocity and the apocalyptic feel that epic battles such as these should have. It made me feel both awe and dread, and I thought the combination of synths and choir was done well enough (at least to my ears). The battle sequence wouldn't have had such a big effect on me if I hadn't heard this particular piece and if it hadn't had choir in it. Maybe the choir really does it for me, because I adore hearing menacing choir in battle tracks, so that could also in part explain my fascination of this piece of music.

Aria di Mezzo Carattere: This piece gave me a different reaction than the previous one. Whereas OWA was music fitting for a catastrophe and ultimate dread, the opera piece in FF6 nudged different emotions. Celes's theme, which is quite melancholy as it is (and for good reason as the game shows) becomes even more epic in proportion and turns into a theme of outright tragedy with tones of sadness and longing, and all of this forms a truly heartbreaking whole. It elevated the opera scene for me, and while it deals with Celes's singing during the opera, it also points out the growth of the character of Celes herself and shows a different side of her. Maybe I identified with Celes's character so that it makes me biased, but I think the piece is emotional in every sense as it conveys a certain character's feelings to us in a magnificent scene.

Although the synth sound is dated by today's standards, I don't think it detracts from the powerful emotion behind its melodies and I certainly didn't mind it because I was swept by the raw emotion of the scene in the game (and the music serves it purpose, so all is well). And for the record, I didn't play FF6 when it first appeared; I only finished it for the first time in the early 2000's, and it was the first FF I'd ever played, so it didn't quite have a nostalgic factor for me. In any case I was already used to that dated sound, because I had played through many Amiga 500 games as a kid and learned to appreciate the beeping soundscape (which was often quite revolutionary for the time, particularly the music composed by Chris H�lsbeck), so maybe that is the reason why I could appreciate the music despite its presentation. However, hearing this piece performed by full orchestra and singers makes it even more stirring emotionally and elevates it from good to magnificent.

And finally I'll have to apologize in advance, because I'll derail this discussion momentarily to address certain things that dannyfrench mentioned in this thread earlier:

I have never understood why people are so enamoured with Star Wars. It's just not very good. It's a very dodgy, highly camp story riddled with plot holes, one dimensional, annoying characters, and trite dialogue. And bugger me, if it hasn't been done completely to death over the last thirty years.

However - I still believe the scores of Star Wars stand up as some of the proudest achievements of Hollywood's golden age of scoring.

I enjoy the Star Wars films quite a bit (although I do prefer the older trilogy over the new one). The films emulate those old Flash Gordon etc. adventures that Lucas knew as a child, and he wanted to replicate that same level of bombast with over-the-top stories etc. However, I think that the Star Wars films are very touching emotionally, and it's fascinating to see how well many mythical structures are integrated into the story (e.g. hero's journey).

In my opinion many of the characters aren't one-dimensional. Each has depth in them, personality and motivations even if the writing doesn't always showcase it well enough. They also grow during their respective stories, and this character development is interesting to behold. Vader's emotional struggle becomes even more poignant as we get to see his growth in the prequel trilogy, and the father and son moments in Return of the Jedi in particular are very touching in their own way. As for the films themselves and their emotional impact, I think that The Empire Strikes Back is a wonderful display of a space opera of dramatic proportions, and the intensity of emotions between the characters in that film in particular is simply stunning. Maybe it has also something to do with Irwin Kerschner's direction, because he's a character-driven director, but I feel that the other SW films have also shown many great bits of character acting among all the epic battles.

Although I understand your feelings about the dialogue, it never really bothered me that much. I think it got somewhat worse in the prequel trilogy, but I nevertheless tolerate it enough to enjoy the films, and the same goes for acting. I think especially the old trilogy has many wonderful lines in them, and some of the best lines are actually improvised (such as Han Solo's touching and yet in-character comment to Leia just prior to being frozen in carbonite in The Empire Strikes Back).

And as you mentioned, the Star Wars scores are stunning indeed. I'm a sucker for leitmotivic development, and I've always thought that music has an important part in films, games etc. to help to get you in the mood and to listen to the story musically. Star Wars scores are some of those scores that let you experience the story itself without having to rely on images, and it shows the power these kinds of scores have. Some bits are even carried by music (yes, music which sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it) such as Luke and Vader's final duel in Return of the Jedi and the binary sunset sequence in A New Hope to mention a few examples. The scores provide us with memorable themes, great thematic development, and the overall arc of the music supports the narrative particularly in the original trilogy. The original Star Wars scores were partially responsible for making me realize the purpose of music and how it can influence us emotionally, and for that I'll be grateful. Despite listening to the scores so many times, I can still find new things to appreciate in them, and they still make me smile whenever I listen to them.

And no, I do not believe you can convince anyone that hasn't seen the series as a kid that it is a serious cinematic experience.

I'm biased because I saw the original trilogy as a kid, and I still love them today. As for someone seeing them later, my sister actually hadn't seen the films until only a month or so ago, and although she found some of the things silly, she nevertheless pointed out many of the deeper things that she appreciated in these films and said that they can be taken seriously when looked at in a certain way. I agree with her on that: I think one can gain a deeper appreciation of these films if one not only sees the films as they are but also looks for deeper meanings. There's a lot of symbolic stuff to appreciate (the psychological comparisons of Luke and Vader, the overall structure of the narrative, Han Solo's character arc etc.), and one can also see things from a film maker's perspective and how different sets, camera angles, use of music, non-verbal communication, delivery of lines etc. creates the experience on screen.

I would thus argue that Star Wars films, just like Disney films, may look deceptively simple on the surface, but when one begins digging deeper, one finds many things to appreciate. I'm not trying to say that you're wrong and I'm right, but I'm just saying that it can be possible to find hidden layers in films such as these. Personal preference is also important. After all, not everyone likes films like these.

I thank you for sharing your view on the matter, though, and I appreciate various insights into the matter. I just wanted to give you my two cents of how I feel about the films as a cinematic experience. :)

streichorchester

10-05-2008, 04:37 AM

Thanks for your post, Kossage. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject and hope to hear more from you.

tangotreats

10-06-2008, 12:32 AM

Since OST 2 of Macross Frontier has appeared, here are some (scatterbrained, not very coherent, due to lack of sleep as usual) thoughts on the new orchestral tracks therein...:

1. Prologue
Over 50% of this is nothing more than a nicely orchestrated knock off of Pirates Of The Caribbean, of all things. Kanno - if you're listening -- WHY THIS??? If you're going to steal, steal from somebody who's worth talking about! In your repertoire of thievery, you have Goldsmith, Korngold, Williams, Broughton, etc... What in the world are you doing with POTC?

7. Test Flight Delight
I'm not sure if this reminds me of anything specific, but it doesn't half sound Christmassy.

11. (God Knows - Too Sleepy To Translate Japanese)
Trumpet solo, no idea of source, if any... Sounds nothing like Kanno's technique, however... (To my ears, anyhow.)

16. Shadow Of Michael
The beginning of this I have heard before, but I cannot remember where - Help, Streich! Actually, all the way up to the end is somehow familiar.

18. Battle Frontier
God, what a disappointment... We begin with Scheherezade, and some Horner brass? At 0:32 we have a massively cliched stabbing strings (sounds impressive, but God, hasn't it been done to death) before the jolly "flying" theme is briefly quoted. At 1:03 we have an theft from from Laurence Rosenthal's Clash Of The Titans, followed by some pretty pedestrian brass posturing. At 2:45 we have a brief visitation from Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra , immediately followed by some brass chords that recall the orchestration of Sibelius' Finlandia, once again. At 4:34, the crappy Zimmer knockoff theme returns, albeit nicely clad in Brass. 5:18 has some more Broughton (Lost in Space?) and then the piece disappears into thin air with absolutely none of the huge-scale closure you've come to expect from Kanno.

And that's all your orchestral music.

In my humble opinion, we have a pretty dull selection of cues here... I'm finding less and less to enjoy here - nothing to do with the plagiarism at all, I'm just finding less to get excited about. To my ears, whoever is writing this stuff is getting a little tired out with it all. It just isn't what it used to be.

streichorchester

10-06-2008, 02:02 AM

Prologue F
0:00 Andrew Lloyd Webber maybe? "Turrrrrrn my head with talk of so-li-tude..."

0:40 Quiet Landing from Turn A Gundam

1:03 Is this PotC? Sounds like it could be any number of MV movies, even Blood+

Test Flight Delight
Sorcerer's Apprentice comes to mind because of the rising motif. But this sounds a lot like Williams to me. On second listen, I'm reminded of a track from Horner's The Pagemaster (when they're out to sea or something.) Always a rising bass line; that's really where Kanno's strength in harmony comes from. Tried it myself and it works every time. The ending is definitely based on some kind of sea/drinking chanty when the rising motif is used in that context.

Track 11
A lot like the War Ship track from Brain Powerd, but not as good.

Shadow of Michael
100% Thomas Newman's style, not sure which score though. When the string quartet came in it sort of sounded like Shadow of the Colossus. The repeating four-bar harmonies is exactly what Thomas Newman does. Yeah, 3:21 sounds like it's from somewhere, but still not sure. I'm no where near my computer at the moment so I can't check. Kamen's Prince of Thieves comes to mind for some reason.

Battle Frontier
0:00 Arnold's ID4 in a Goldsmithian style
0:32 it's about time Mars showed up in a Kanno score (or is it Star Trek VI?), then things get a little Wagnerish (The Flying Dutchman?)
1:30 this melody reminds me of the chorale from Sibelius's Finlandia for some reason
2:40 return of the Cape Fear motif with the Also Sprach Zarathustra stuff
3:05 Very Sibeliusy if not Finlandia
3:30 Back to the Future? Sounds like Silvestri's tension music
4:33 I don't know, to me it still sounds more like Top Gun or some derivative of that nature
5:17 Broughton's Rescuer's Down Under again

There do seem to be some major changes in orchestration since Turn A Gundam and Aquarion. Things aren't as colourful as they used to be, but that's because everything is so serious and soundtrack-y. Tracks intentionally omitted from this release: the Conti rip off, the Empire of the Sun rip off. Not much in the way of plagiarism in this release, but still there's a ton of music missing.

tangotreats

10-07-2008, 12:20 AM

0:00 Andrew Lloyd Webber maybe? "Turrrrrrn my head with talk of so-li-tude..."

Interesting! I'll refer that one to my fiancee - she's a bit of a buff.

0:40 Quiet Landing from Turn A Gundam

Absolutely. What the devil is that doing in there?

1:03 Is this PotC? Sounds like it could be any number of MV movies, even Blood+

Fair comment - to be absolutely honest, it could indeed be anything. I'm starting to think it's definitely *something* Zimmer, but I haven't sat through enough of those repetitive ratbag "scores" to be able to know what it is.

Sorcerer's Apprentice comes to mind because of the rising motif. But this sounds a lot like Williams to me. On second listen, I'm reminded of a track from Horner's The Pagemaster (when they're out to sea or something.) Always a rising bass line; that's really where Kanno's strength in harmony comes from. Tried it myself and it works every time. The ending is definitely based on some kind of sea/drinking chanty when the rising motif is used in that context.

It does definitely have a Williamsy vibe - it may be the nearest thing to "Flying Dragon" we've had from Kanno in quite some time, although the spark just isn't there. Is the rising brass at 0:42 from Turn A Gundam again, or am I just imaginging this stuff now? And the fanfare-esque section that immediately follows, I've heard that before... It's Kanno, but I don't remember where it's from.

Track 11
A lot like the War Ship track from Brain Powerd, but not as good.

Indeed... this really does fall flat as a pancake for me. War Ship was a magnificent piece - and this piece is clearly based upon it... But once again, it just doesn't seem anywhere near as ravishing - orchestrationally, as well as thematically.

100% Thomas Newman's style, not sure which score though. When the string quartet came in it sort of sounded like Shadow of the Colossus. The repeating four-bar harmonies is exactly what Thomas Newman does. Yeah, 3:21 sounds like it's from somewhere, but still not sure. I'm no where near my computer at the moment so I can't check. Kamen's Prince of Thieves comes to mind for some reason.

I'm not at all familar with Newman, so I can't comment on most of that, though I think I get the Kamen feeling... Time to fish out Prince of Thieves...

Battle Frontier
0:00 Arnold's ID4 in a Goldsmithian style

THAT'S where that brass is from - thank you!

0:32 it's about time Mars showed up in a Kanno score (or is it Star Trek VI?),

I don't think I'm getting either to any large extent, to be honest... The rythym is Mars, but everything else isn't... There's those ID4 chords again, and an inversion of Also Sprach Zarathustra at 0:46??? I think the descending strings at 0:58 are about the closest in feeling to "vintage" orchestral Kanno we've had in Frontier...

1:30 this melody reminds me of the chorale from Sibelius's Finlandia for some reason

The low brass punctuation, definitely.

2:40 return of the Cape Fear motif with the Also Sprach Zarathustra stuff

INdeed, although it sounds oddly crap... There's not a lot going on here for Kanno - it's very bland... Repeating string figure and rising unison brass motif, with a jarring quote from Zarathustra, followed by more repeating string figure, then the whole thing just slows down and peters out.

3:05 Very Sibeliusy if not Finlandia

Indeed, that brass is 100% Sibelius... The orchestration is definitely Finlandian, but the chords aren't... But it still sounds like Sibelius.

4:33 I don't know, to me it still sounds more like Top Gun or some derivative of that nature

Wasn't Top Gun from a delightful era before that MV crap had caught hold? 4:56 definitely sounds like a verbatim rip from something - but as usual, my brain is failing me and not telling me from whence. I suspect this is because, as I've said before, my Zimmer / MV knowledge is particularly sketchy as I can't stand a single note of it. ;)

5:17 Broughton's Rescuer's Down Under again

AND Lost in Space. ;)

This closing couple of minutes I think is really poor. We have little more than a potpourii of various re-used melodies, with absolutely nothing interesting going on in the orchestration, and that bloody incessant, never changing, god-damned annoying snare.

It's weird, because you know what I think about Kanno's plagiarism but I've never actually been annoyed by the construction of any of her music before. To me, this is sounding positively amateur in comparison to stuff like Turn A Gundam, and Escaflowne - which I doubt will be bettered ever again.

I wonder if it's that she was asked specifically for this kind of score, or whether she/whoever doesn't give a crap any more, or some other reason...?

Where are the Golden Age references? Where are the deliciously thick chromatic harmonies? Where is the insanely complicated orchestral acrobatics? And is it me, or has the concept of motif gone completely out of the window for most of this? So much of this music is just big gestures that don't go anywhere, don't refer to anything, and never return.

Obviously there will be an OST 3. I predict that there will be no more thereafter. I also predict that OST 3 will be the most orchestrally-biased of them all. There is always a tendency to give people the J-Pop first and then throw all the orchestral stuff on at the end of the last CD where nobody cares about it...

If the release schedule continues at the same pace, we should be seeing some announcement about 3 somewhere around Christmas. Not that I'm in the slightest bit excited about it, now... :/

streichorchester

10-07-2008, 05:00 AM

There's definitely something different in the orchestrations. These are no longer classical show pieces, as I described in the other thread, but fully-fledged Western Hollywood scoring. Not every track is circular. Is Kanno's hand being forced? Is this a perminant stylistic shift that she was working towards? Is this a step up or down? All I can figure is that maybe those dozens of songs written for the series must have exhausted those resources usually dedicated to the orchestral aspects.

I won't have my soundtrack HD for a while so if you can post a comparison of Clash of the Titans, Lost in Space, or any other rips, please do. Even if they're only vaguely reminiscient, it might help jog my memory for other things.

Oh, and on that "note", I was playing Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 1 the other day and the opening sounded very familiar. Try slowing it down and imagine a chorus chanting those rising figures.

tangotreats

10-07-2008, 12:17 PM

There's quite an irony buried in what you just said -- effectively, we're complaining because Kanno's film scores are sounding like film scores, and not like mini-symphonies from the reincarnation of Prokofiev.

You're absolutely right - the change is largely that the theatrics has gone, and in its place, a strangely lean, very linear "I am writing film music" style has emerged instead. Perhaps this is just an abberation. It's hard to believe that we have just over a decade of Kanno's orchestral music to compare - and her technique has indeed shifted around, but not to the extent of effectively a complete overhall and reimagination of style. Perhaps the producers of Macross were more concerned with having music that is easy to use in a TV series. Kanno's previous orchestral pieces have, to me, always seemed to function better on album - like they were written primarily as concert showpieces (as you said) and then edited up to turn them into a score. With Frontier, we're hearing orchestral music that seem to have been written primarily to score a TV series, and have been edited up to turn them into an album -- or at least, they have been composed without album bias.

Tracks like "The Target" from the previous OST 1 are exceptions, of course - could it be that we're hearing certain tracks composed to picture (ie, the ones we think don't hold up particularly well) and some others composed as concert pieces...?

I like to think that this isn't something permanent - it's an uncharacteristic stylistic shift to accomodate a particular request or production requirement; and that Kanno's next score will better Escaflowne.

As soon as I'm back home (I'm at work at the moment) I'll be checking out that Sonata - and will happily do a few comparisons with Lost in Space and Clash Of The Titans - and a few more as well.

Cheers

streichorchester

10-07-2008, 07:17 PM

Now that I think about it Macross Frontier was poorly scored likely as a result of trying to make it a semi-harem "school life" anime full of pop tunes. It started promising with a big ID4 intro and then the first battle was sequenced to The Target, the "kiss" scene later on, etc., but as it went on things became less motivic/thematic and more pop-oriented. The problem is that pop music has no tension, so the ending was a let down. No huge orchestral climax, no recurring themes, no coming to full circle, and no "sign off" (think of how Star Trek and Star Wars movies always end with a huge orchestral sign off that segues into the end credits.) Considering that the epilogue was like 5 minutes long, I guess there was no time for these things. Also, the final revelation of the Vajra was the perfect opportunity for a grandiose The Abyss knock off or something similarly epic, but not this time. It was way subdued, like an afterthought. The whole series was kind of based on it, but it was passed over as if it didn't matter as much as the pseudo-romance. Oh well... I think there's a movie coming out which might resolve some of these things.

tangotreats

10-07-2008, 09:05 PM

I can't comment on the scoring as it applies to the show, since I haven't seen it. Generally, mecha just gets right up my nose.

I've just had a skip through the last two episodes on YouTune and what I'm hearing is basically wall to wall J-Pop. Is this a pretty accurate conclusion to draw (given that I can't bring myself to watch it for any length of time)?

Perhaps she did the best she could in the circumstances, so to speak...

P'raps the movie will repair these issues. It'll be nice to hear Kanno in full orchestral, theatrical feature mode again. Last time was Turn A Gundam, wasn't it?

streichorchester

10-08-2008, 06:15 AM

I haven't seen the Turn A Gundam movie, but there were definitely some battle tracks (at least two) in the latter episodes that aren't released on the OSTs plus some tense themes that again reminded me of Star Trek VI.

But for orchestral scoring I think Aquarion had some elements of it in the latter episodes, which again go unreleased on album, and you can find them in the Yoko Kanno album thread as audio rips. There is one long battle track in particular that is very The Target-like, but without the Arnold or Goldenthal rips that plague her other Hollywood action cues. It's great, and plays the Aquarius chorale in the pipeorgan, and knocks off the Star Wars melee sound (trumpets playing chromatic triplets.)

I'm thinking of watching Brain Powerd, despite how bad the reviews are, just to see if there's more unreleased stuff of that nature.

Why is Macross Frontier so J-pop oriented? Because they decided it must be like the other Macrosses and force the songs to be a major part of the plot. It sucks because it was handled poorly and it infringed on the tension. The final battle has no tension and is just plain boring. The final "boss" is never threatening. It's more commercialism than artistry, more flash than message or meaning. It pales in comparison to Macross Plus or Turn A Gundam. It's funny Kanno would call one of the tracks "The Target" because this series missed it completely.

SeijiAmasawa

09-08-2009, 11:59 PM

As great as nobuo is, and i'm as big a fan as anyone, he's kinda boasted by how amazing and popular the FF series is! I love them both, but i'd say Kanno is better, in my opinion.

SeijiAmasawa

09-09-2009, 12:03 AM

hmm, plus the majority of nobuo's pieces are MIDI so perhaps that takes away from it. What was I saying before, I choose Nobuo!

LordBlackudder

09-09-2009, 03:21 PM

<font color="#19212F">uematsu</font>

ManaChwan

09-21-2009, 11:45 PM

Well, I hate to start reviving an old thread again, but on the topic of the thread itself, I vote Yoko. I have a slight bias in that I don't care for much of the FF series or most of Uematsu's work.

On the subject of Yoko Kanno's plagarism, I have heard quite a few in the non-orchestral that are more nods and what not rather than outright copying. And I agree to a point that she makes things original enough. And while I should be able to identify some if not most of the classical plagarism, I feel too lazy to go back and listen to most of it (unless it's from Napple Tale which I listen to anyway).

However, I have seen a case where an artist was informed of her borrowing heavily/ripping (Torkey in this case) and saying enough sounded original. I understand she didn't ask permission either. However, I want to know how often she credits. I guess she's credited on a few CDs, and I udnerstand on certain DVD special features she credits, and in one case I heard of, a group she 'borrowed' from, went back and remixed again on the same soundtrack. So I want to know, how often she credits, asks permission, etc. because that makes a helluva difference in things.

I don't think I'll like her any more or less, and I think in some cases it's impossible to avoid having music sound alike (to an extent, copying is a no-no but circumstances...), but creditting and asking permission make a big difference I think.

kanonathena

07-24-2011, 12:02 PM

What more facts do you need than the fact that almost every single composition attributed to Kanno has its basis in another piece of music by somebody else?

Wait, so is there a orchastral album kanno worte which does not have so much referencing? Could you try her soundtrack to the movie innocent love and comment on this? I myself am a newcomer to classical music (bartok.debussy.bach.mazart.beethoven stuff), not in a position make associations.

I want to find this: - a masterpiece single track she wrote that is original/even better, a album she wrote that is original in most parts. So we can decide her real composition skill and her ability to maintain it on a high level.

If all her good pieces are from elsewhere then I guess comparison between Gregson williams, Joe Hisaishi are out of question then?

Also, some input on comparing Gregson williams, elfman, Joe Hisaishi, John williams, goldenthal would be appreciated? A head-to-head comparison between Joe Hisaishi and John williams would be nice too. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 04:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 AM ----------

That's the really weird thing. Obviously SO MUCH WORK and SO MUCH MONEY is going into this stuff. The orchestrations in Kanno's work are some of the thickest, busiest, most velvety arrangements I've ever heard for symphony orchestra.
[Edit: The Inglis quote in full. http://www.jameswong.com/ykproject/extra_inglis.html]

velvety is exactly the word I would use to describe her orchestral music, that's what got me respect her, it is like a fusion between mozart and debussy. If based on this ability to write velvety music alone regardless of ideas stealing, how would you rate kanno's composition skill? In other words, would other top films composer like elfman, zimmer, howard be able to make that level of velvety? I think it's very hard thing to do, that level of flow is incredible.

And on the amazing fact that kanno seems to be capable to internalize all genes of music, it is because her open heart. well this will get a little spiritual which is repulsive to most people, interested people please refer to David Lynch on TM (transcendental meditation), open your heart will improve your creativity tremendously, I have seen my results. Furthermore, I have seen her interview, I am certain she is a geniue and talented person. I am empathic and I can tell a talent from a bitch who pretend to be cute. THIS IS some additional information, if you don't find it useful leave it aside please.

---------- Post added at 04:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 AM ----------

I remember a quote from Anthony Inglis, who conducted most of Kanno's earlier recordings in Warsaw and Israel. He said he thought Kanno was a complete genius, and that the entire orchestra were in awe at the music. Hell, if Inglis doesn't care, and the orchestra doesn't care... Maybe I *am* a snob...

[Edit: The Inglis quote in full. http://www.jameswong.com/ykproject/extra_inglis.html]

Ok, this settles my doubt. Her music reminds me of the light/crystal nature of mozart. No other film composer have done this for me. Now I am waiting for her first classical effort or at least a orchastral album like song to fly.

You should try Song to Fly, I guess it is the best album to ascertain her composion skill.

---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 AM ----------

or that she just couldn't because the music was composed by committee and not one person.

That's not possible, the orchestration style is too consistent to be composed by a group of people, not to say kanno has been around for more than a decade. The seemingly "rational" answer can lead nowhere if the mind has been framed by our rotten culture. Why kanno quotes so much? simple answer, because she wants to, because she thinks it fits. because the word "stealing" never crossed her mind. because the negative reaction to her "stealing" never crossed her mind.

To quote from wiki

She has written scores for famous animated works, including Macross Plus, Turn A Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, The Vision of Escaflowne, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Wolf's Rain, and is the most trusted composer by veteran and new-wave directors such as Yoshiyuki Tomino, Shinichiro Watanabe and Shoji Kawamori

questions: do you think these Japanese directors know so little about western music that they can't tell if kanno is a pretender?
Do you think they are conspiring to make kanno a legend? Here is a fact, when you are in a negative state, you can't create.

---------- Post added at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 AM ----------

Come to think of it, there's no personality in any of Kanno's music. As I have said, I find it technically impeccable, complex form, beautifully orchestrated, but still oddly textbook. The fact that Kanno-conducted performances are indistinguishable from Inglis or Klemens-conducted performances just confirms this...

Do you see emotional characteristic in mozart's music? That is what it is so special about his music and why I think kanno got some exceptional talent. When striped of personality what's left is beauty. Again, many people found mozart's music excruciatingly boring and repetitive.

I just want to thank all the participants who shared their perspective in this thread, it is every educating and entertaining.

Silent Ed

08-04-2011, 10:45 PM

poll results are wrong and bullshit!! noobuo uematsu >>>>>>>>>>>>> yoko kanno

streichorchester

08-10-2011, 02:36 AM

That's not possible, the orchestration style is too consistent to be composed by a group of people, not to say kanno has been around for more than a decade. The seemingly "rational" answer can lead nowhere if the mind has been framed by our rotten culture. Why kanno quotes so much? simple answer, because she wants to, because she thinks it fits. because the word "stealing" never crossed her mind. because the negative reaction to her "stealing" never crossed her mind.

To quote from wiki

She has written scores for famous animated works, including Macross Plus, Turn A Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, The Vision of Escaflowne, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Wolf's Rain, and is the most trusted composer by veteran and new-wave directors such as Yoshiyuki Tomino, Shinichiro Watanabe and Shoji Kawamori

questions: do you think these Japanese directors know so little about western music that they can't tell if kanno is a pretender?
Do you think they are conspiring to make kanno a legend? Here is a fact, when you are in a negative state, you can't create.

Kanno IS a pretender. The fact that much of the music, orchestral and non, tends to be rip-offs of other pieces or songs means there is a blatent intent to deceive her audience.

Also, the orchestral styles are NOT consistent, at least, not to the degree where I can imagine one person writing the music. Case in point: there is a startling contrast between the original music and plagiarized music. How can someone so talented and original in some tracks be so careless and dishonest in others? It doesn't make sense. Is the score to Aquarion so important that she had no choice but to rip off Elliot Goldenthal? Or is it so unimportant that it doesn't matter if she ripped off Goldenthal or not?

Here's an example I like to use to show something is amiss when it comes to the orchestral aspects of a Kanno soundtrack. Take Escaflowne for example, where she collaborated with Hajime Mizoguchi. The orchestral tracks he supposedly composed and arranged on the first OST are Cubic, Romance, Gloria, Eyes. Listen to these and you will notice they sound EXACTLY like Kanno's orchestral style, from the melodies to the harmonies to the early 20th century orchestral idioms. "Cubic" sounds like "Prism" from Brainpowerd, composed by Kanno. "Eyes" uses the same Caro Mio Ben theme which is practically the main theme in Brainpowerd. But Hajime Mizoguchi didn't work on Brainpowerd. He composed the soundtrack to Jin-Roh, which sounds nothing like his work in Escaflowne. I'd say his work in Escaflowne is leagues better.

Did Kanno ghost-write his music just so he didn't feel left out? If I believed Kanno was a black box with no outside help or influence, then I would say yes, she did ghost-write those tracks.

As for Japanese directors "trusting" Kanno, I'd have to see some sources. If I had to take a stab at it I'd say Japanese directors see Kanno as Western directors see Remote Control Productions: just another part of the production that gets the job done in a timely and resourceful fashion.