The title pretty much says it all. Post your two cents if you like, but remember that if you want to defend the game, you're in for a severe uphill battle.

My gripes:

Story - It's obvious that the story is influenced heavily by those of western RPGs. And therein lies the problem. It's a Japanese game. A Japanese game should have a Japanese flavor. When it doesn't, things go wrong.

In this case, the failing is simply that FFXII is NOT a role-playing game. It is an adventure game, just like the majority of its predecessors. RPG scenarios and adventure game scenarios have to be designed differently. In the case of RPGs, development of the main character is left virtually untouched so that players can fill it out through their own actions. To make up for that, the focus is placed on developing the setting, scenario, and secondary characters. Of course, in most successful RPGs, those elements are also flexible and change depending on the traits you display through the main character's actions.

Adventure games focus more on the main character and are absolutely rigid in terms of plot progression. That is, of course, the way the Final Fantasy series has always been. The primary characters in adventure games are usually very well-developed and a great deal of time can potentially be spent exploring their personalities.

In FFXII, the focus is likewise placed on developing the setting and scenario. The problem is that the characters are pre-defined. They lack the depth and appeal of adventure game characters and are more in line with side characters in an RPG. If the Japs want to make a role-playing game, they should try to go all-out and make a real one. Don't rip the worst possible element from them and trust that a flashy execution will make up for it and convince people that different is good just because it's different.

Gameplay - Using a system basically taken right out of a MMORPG was a great idea. Breaking it with quickenings was an abominably bad idea.

I heard before the game was released that it was actually pretty hard. Imagine my surprise and outrage when I discovered that the people who made that claim were full of crap. Once you have quickenings for a few characters, the game becomes ridiculously easy. And don't even start with that nonsense about not using them to make the game harder. The objective of any game is to win, and it only makes sense to use any means at your disposal to achieve that goal. If you deliberately hold back to make something harder, it means you've acknowledged its failing on some level, even if you're not totally aware of it.

Also, gambits are nice, but there just aren't enough of them. What's more, the developers knew that and specifically designed it that way. It's obvious from the fact they limited the number of them that you can use, especially at the start. Their objective was to hold players back from doing as well as they possibly could to make the game more difficult and try to give the illusion of depth by making you find or buy new gambits. If the system was fully accessible right at the start and gave players dev-level control over the AI of the characters, it would have been ideal for a game that was more well-designed all around.

Secrets - I know I've made this rant before, but it sucks when developers hide things in a game that no one in their right mind can possibly find without some kind of guide. The series started doing this with FFVII (which was perhaps the first game to be aggressively marketed along with a strategy guide at the time of its release) and has gotten worse with almost every subsequent entry. If you hide things in such a manner that people cannot find it without a guide, you're basically locking away part of the program that they've paid for and telling them they have to shell out even more if they want it. It's only a step short of extortion.

I have other complaints, but this is pretty long already.

I... don't have time to post a spirited defense right now. I'll come up with what I can later...

my problem with the story is that it does not mimic MY character developments. the license system lets me decide how i want to utilize a character, but in the end, all my characters are pretty much the same. what also happens is the stroryline and MY character roles don't jibe. in the story, ashe is sorta a bad ass (we see her originally as a fighter and her personity is aggressive), however, in MY game (when i am tooling around fighting fiends) she is a support character used for healing and stealing. i would rather have the game place some limits on character development so that it will match the story line and character personalities. after spending millions of hours leveling and hunting with ashe being passive i get a bit removed from the story after a cut scene shows her being a bad ass. the best case scenario would be if the makers could have multiple story lines based on how the player utilizes characters. this would make the next problem worse:

it would make a strategy guide even larger, lol, which i totally agree with you on how the player should be dependent on the game not the game being dependent on the strategy guide.

about gameplay, i don't mind the quickenings, but they do make things too easy. i liked ff 8's way of limit breaks, you had to be HP crit and it didn't interfere too much with the battle. i hope they keep the current battle system since it makes things go much faster (i hated when you wanted to get somewhere and would be attacked, which forced the game into an independent battle screen. there would be times when it would take longer for the battle to "load" than me to kill the enemy). i do hope that for boss battles or special fights they have independent battle screens. sometimes i can't see all of the beast i'm fighting or the camera gets caught and i can't monitor the beast's HP or status effects (though the worst is when you can't see the five other lesser enemies hitting your players, or even worse is realizing one of your characters has ran away to steal and then pissing off a whole other onslaught of enemies). i miss when you came upon a huge boss and needed to take a breath because it was so massive. here i just walk up and the gambits do their thing. it sorta takes away from FF's ability to make the player feel afraid for their characters and also the feeling of accomplishment after defeating a truly huge boss.

Oh, I'm so glad you reminded me of the license board. That was another thing that was detestably poorly implemented in the game. What is the point of a system that allows you to develop characters any way you please, but makes specialization absolutely worthless? I tried to specialize my characters early on, but completely gave up when I realized I was just giving them licenses for things they wouldn't have access to for a long time. At about ten hours of play time, I had given up on trying to make a dedicated white mage, ranged specialist, and tank. After all, with the license for Cure being so cheap, why would I not have it on every character? With points left over after acquiring all the white magic licenses and magic augments, why would I not start stocking up on weapon licenses? It's a retarded system designed to be completely idiot-proof that ultimately cheapens the entire experience and gives credence to the notion that you're not so much playing a game as watching a particularly simple and stock, yet over-extended story play itself out.

see, i make good points, you need to take back what you said earlier, lol. (however, i still can't respect anyone who liked x-2, uggghhh.)

Heh. I can guarantee you that you would look at things differently after discussing that game with me, although I'm not going to do it in this thread. PM me if you really want to go at it.

kilgore --- as always, fail. You have yet to post a single salient, comprehensible, or reasonable reason why FFX-2 isn't better than FFX, or even why it isn't a good game.


Proper responses to the actual on-topic points made in this thread still to come.


P.S.: That's brave of you, Prak. It's enough of a headache for me trying to read kilgore's messages on the boards. I can't imagine trying to carry on a conversation by PM.

I don't know guys.... call me shallow, but I like the game just fine the way it is. Imagine Square Enix or anyone for that matter actually making a game that NOBODY had a problem with. Why play it if you detest that much about it?

Okay, let's see what I can do here...

Story --- If you're playing a Final Fantasy game, then you accept to some degree that it is not an proper role-playing game. But that doesn't mean that there isn't character development. Let's take a look.


We have Balthier --- who seems to be a pirate who is focused mainly on himself and his own affairs. But who is he, really? It turns out that he's the son of Doctor Cid, plus he's heavily involved with Fran --- who he ends up getting married to?

We have Captain Basch, my favorite main character of the game. Basch, a man defeated, but still clinging to his honor. Basch --- who has a brother who works for the Empire and who he has been mistaken for. A man who must come to terms and find something and someone to protect, plus face the failures of his past.

Okay, how about Fran? A mysterious one. Still carries some of that Viera coldness, but has gone out into the world and found something else. The woman who has nothing to prove, really, who is on her own personal journey to find what she wants out of life. And who must also struggle with her decision to largely cut ties with her own people.

Ashe - A tough nut to crack. Who is Ashe, and what does she want? Is she after revenge, restoring the power of herself and her people, or what? And how will the new friends and allies she makes affect this?

Vaan - As I have admitted in other threads, Vaan seems to me to be a mix of Butz/Bartz from Final Fantasy V and Tidus from Final Fantasy X. Unlike other recent Final Fantasy protagonists, Vaan is not destined to fall in love with the main female character of this game. Isn't that a nice change? Like Butz/Bartz, Vaan seems to be in some ways, largely simply along for the ride. But as the game progresses, connections are revealed and Vaan begins to find his path.

Penelo - A lot like Rikku from FFX. A bubbly, fun sort, but troubled by the things that are happening in her life and the lives of those around her. As the game progresses, she begins to relax more and more of her fun side comes out.


No more time --- I'll have to add more detail and respond to your other two points later. I also need to add in a bit on NPCs / Guest Characters...

You two just go die...

has anybody played rogue galaxy??

(& this is the 1st time i've ever blasphemed the holy name of final fantasy,.so please forgive me,.30 hail mary's,.& 10 ooh-baby's)

but 12's really like a cheap knock off of rogue galaxy,. better grafix or course,cuz final fantasy's always been the ca$h cow,.. the battle sequence is similar to 'dirge of cerebrus',.the way you get your experience with each hit,& it's alot more active,. & from the demo i got,it seems like rogue galaxy doesn't have magick,.but of course like every good rpg,each person,bring a unique specialty/ability to the table,.& they're really dramatic,.. (i was rather dissapointed in the spells in 12<<<--OH DEAR ESPERS,PLEASE FORGIVE ME,.I'VE DONE IT AGAIN,...cuz i figured each spell would have more c.g. instead it's like,firaga throws a couple hands full of flammable powder,that ignites on contact,..etc,...

shit,.even the old tactics had it right,.they had spells in 4-d,. like any of the more powerful magicks,.showed the whole battle field raise up,spin around,& cast magick accross the board (weather cure,or destructive),. i was sort of hoping after the whole ffx-2 flop <<hail mary<< with the job commands,.that they'd do it right,& ramp up tactics idea,..

that's my take,.by the way,i kept all my people since the beginning,in heavy armor,& strongest wepons,.then i found that the mage hats + better mag def,but take away nothing,.so that's how they all stay,. but i noticed that ashe's magick power is like double over everyone else's,& basch,is the same on strength,.

also,.why is it,that every single ff (that i can vividly remember) has the weakest hero's? am i wrong?? but for real,the hero's never the most powerfull any-damn-thing,..they should be the most powerful every-damn-thing,to have the title of "THE HERO",..

~MY $2

pagan, nice point on the uncool magic effects. i totally agree. the first time i ran scathe i was excited, but only to be let down.

and agent, thanks for making my point where i said in other posts that penelo is useless. you summed her character progression as such:
As the game progresses, she begins to relax more and more of her fun side comes out.
how the fuck is game progression and story developement IMPROVED by her character? it's not! she's a babbling idiot who does nothing but helps to keep the fighting parties even at 3 characters each. if i wanted to see her "relax" then square should have added a mini game where i could give her a qualude and screw her up the ass!

the game is still pretty cool, they just needed to tweak a few more things to put it over the edge. at least it's a better direction than where x-2 was taking the series.

pagan and kilgoretrout. Both of your posts are, as per usual, supremely unreadable to anyone who actually respects things such as grammar, formatting and punctuation. So you'll forgive me if I just ignore them.


Let's continue...


NPCs / Guest Characters - Okay, I'll admit it. Guest characters for the most part suck. The lack of any chance to customize them at all and the fact that their Gambits are always on sucks majorly. The best guest character by far was Larsa. He's awesome in battle and awesome as a character in general. The brother of the main villain, he ends up becoming a powerful ally.

NPCs --- This game has the best moogles ever. Also, the Clan Centurio and its members are way awesome. And this game has a wonderful diversity of races.

Gameplay - Okay, watch Argument A. fly out the window. If you don't like the Quickenings system, there's a simple solution --- don't use it! Besides, this same argument pretty much applies to pretty much any Final Fantasy limit break system, FFVIII's especially. Also, the further you progress in the game, the less useful Quickenings become. The greatest advantage of Quickenings is that they essentially take you out of the battle as such --- while you're running Quickenings, the enemy can't touch you. I don't think this an unfair advantage against enemies in a game where your opponents can put up Palings and Magick Shields, making them completely invincible for a while.

Gambits - You win this one. You win it completely. You are absolutely, 100% right. I personally feel most, if not all of the Gambits should have been available right at the start and you should have been able to use more of them right away.

Secrets - Prak, you win some points for this one. Some of this crap really is impossible to figure out your own. Like the Zodiac Spear or even having to summon Belias to pass through certain points. But you're forgetting ne thing --- the Internet. Unless you're a moron, or you live in a cave somewhere and don't have Internet, there's no reason why you have to buy the strategy guide. I mean, if it's something you want to get, then that's cool. But there's plenty of great guides out there already, and if you still can't figure it out after looking at GameFAQs or whatever, you can always ask a question here. But I will agree that Kingdom Hearts, and even more so Kingdom Hearts II is more fun that way --- there's no missable secrets in Kingdom Hearts II, really. Everything is compiled in Jiminy's Journal, so if you're missing something, you pretty much know it.


And finally...


Licenses - Well, you're sort of right. I dunno, I don't really play most Final Fantasies that way. Magicks and technicks and stuff are useful for support, but I generally rely more on physical attacks. I will agree that LP farm is too easy, but again, it's more a matter of how much time are you going to spend on it? If you don't want to nerf the difficulty of the game, then just don't spend so much time doing it.

agent0042--i'm sure u might b a mod,or respectected highly dude around here,.but apparently,.ur very new to the internet OLDTIMER grammar & puntuation? get real dude,if u got music downloading,2 forums pages,& 3 other pages up,.runnin adaware ready to post ya latest song,. u gunna type quick,..

now on the other hand,.. if ur 30,.& livin in ya parents basement,play ff all day every day,& steal the souls of innocent children,just to sell em 4 the new game,.cuz u got no job,.. then sure,take all the time u need there sweet heart,..

here's an idea,..join a writers forum WHERE THEY GIVE A FUCK!!!

in closing,.up ur vocab,.& impress me w/ an iq higher than ur shoe size,. mines 167,. what's ur's mr. bright??

get a life^^^kupo^^^

Wow, welcome to my ignore list, pagan. It took you way less time than sain to make it, and not only because you have nothing interesting to say in a way that's worth reading, but you're also entirely unentertaining.


Oh, and by the way, I think you'll find that pretty much everyone here who isn't an idiot like you (which is pretty much everyone here) does give a fuck.

Pagan Pride--
There's nothing wrong with being considerate to readers!! >>
I know that sometimes people don't have time to pay attention to correct grammar those things....
But the things you post here are permanent! So it shouldn't hurt to spend a bit of time to fix spelling and grammar mistakes...since the effort you spend will only be once, and the results of your efforts--the post, will be there forever.

<<
About FFXII--I also had similar problems with the game that Prak mentioned...
The story seemed a bit "bare"...and at times, it also seemed as if you needed more background about the world than the game ever has provided you with....
The wording of the script was also sometimes a bit too...pedantic at times. Though it might have been done for effect, it sometimes felt a bit overdone....

I will admit that the first time I played through the game, there were a lot of things that well, I didn't pick up, or didn't make sense at first. I find that playing the game through a second time, as I'm doing now, is actually a great idea. Having the background of all of the stuff that I did manage to pick up on the first playthrough, certain scenes make so much more sense than they did before.

I'm going to try to respond to some of Prak's specific comments on the story so ifeel free to skip past.

Story - First off, In my opinion, the story of this game was the best in any FF game since FF6 - phenomenal, but I think it's all a matter of what you like. If you like teen angst and sappy romance this isn't for you. If you want a lighter tone like Kingdom Hearts or FFX-2 this isn't for you. If you want a political drama with fantasy elements and likable characters, then you might like it.

Alrighty then.

You bring up some interesting theories about the nature of RPG's vs Adventure games, and what you perceive as Western vs. Japanese storytelling methods. Personally, I think these distinctions are paper-thin at best.

First of all, the term RPG has always been misleading when applied to console games. There are very few console games where you actually role-play per se and they always end up being limited in scope in some way. For example Oblivion has wonderful world richness and freedom, but I found it lacking in how much you could actually effect within game on a 1 on 1 basis.

Nearly every console RPG would be I guess what you define as an "Adventure" game (though I've never heard anyone else define Adventure game as "RPG where you don't roleplay"). The reason games like FF, DQ, etc are called RPG's is because they follow the general scheme of the original RPGs like D&D: A party of adventurers explores a world, fights monsters, gets stronger, and interacts with one another. FF12 fits that mold as well as any console RPG.

Somewhat ironically given the term, the part that's lacking is player input - the roleplaying itself. However, it's a functional definition and IMO it's silly trying to come up with new terms that no one else uses. FF12 is, like every other FF game, a console RPG, not an adventure game. Some have more freedom of character development than others (KOTOR comes to mind - in many ways a traditional console RPG but it does let you make meaningful roleplaying decisions), all have variations in gameplay, but all that means is that they are different games, not different genres (though I will admit overlap certainly exists - some games I'd call RPG's you don't even level up, some adventure games you do, but that's all semantics again).

Now about your Japanese/Western distinction.

There is no "Japanese" method of storytelling and there is no "Western" method of storytelling. There are just different storytellers, or writing styles if you will. The storytelling of Matsuo and his team, as shown in this game, FFTactics, and Vagrant Story is different from the storytelling of the other recent FF games (lets say FF7-10), but it's not more "Western". It's just the product of a different storyteller(s), nothing more to it.

Now, if you don't like Matsuo's style that's one thing. But unless you're a dedicated scholar in both American and English literature I think you'd be hard pressed to define exactly what distinguishes Western and Eastern storytelling even in the classic works of each.

The whole point is especially silly when you consider that the plot, story, and setting of FF (and DQ and every other Fantasy jRPG) was originally inspired by a western game (D&D), and then written by Japanese D&D fans! Simple concepts such as Japanese and Western become inextricably tangled in the modern world.


Some of this crap really is impossible to figure out your own. Like... having to summon Belias to pass through certain points.

It's sad you feel that way! I thought that was a really cool puzzle, primarily because I didn't get it at first, then I thought about it for awhile, and tried a few things, and finally got it. What seems like an irrelevent headache to some people is fun for others.

There are clues for that one: I mean Belias is called "Belias: The GIGAS" when you get him - the gigas, just like the door asks for. Plus, if you don't remember, when you go to the bestiary the file tells you the same thing again.

(To Agent0042)
Ah, I see...
Mm, I'll definitely replay it once I finish....

I actually enjoyed the license board, though...>> Or maybe I just enjoyed "exploring" it with my non-main-party characters....
I usually prefer having freedom with characters, since specialization may force characters into the party that the player might dislike, or that sort of thing....

For the game's difficulty, I've never had to hold back so far, but all I've been doing to win major battles is using Quickenings. I've just received Belias, and I really like the Esper system so far...
I'm actually not very partial to this battle system, though, and I prefer the ATB/ADB. The battle screen doesn't bring much attention to the actions of the characters or monsters...it does have "action lines" and there are many places which tell you monster and ally actions, but important or dangerous enemy actions are sometimes drowned out by other actions listed at top. At times, a battle might turn for the worse seemingly out of nowhere, and sometimes I lose without knowing why I lost....
That's no good! I want to know what I can do better next time--not just that....I lost....



It's sad you feel that way! I thought that was a really cool puzzle, primarily because I didn't get it at first, then I thought about it for awhile, and tried a few things, and finally got it. What seems like an irrelevent headache to some people is fun for others.


>>
<<
That's...how I felt about political drama, too....
"An irrelevant headache".....XP

Tell me more about why you like the story! So that I can enjoy it, too....<<

Okay --- I suppose the Belias one is one that can be figured out if you apply yourself hard enough. Not some of that other stuff, though.


Oh --- and I agree, the battle log at the top of the stuff is a lot less useful than it should be.

I've just received Belias, and I really like the Esper system so far...

Hmm... you may change your mind. Unfortunately, Espers were not well-utilized in the gameplay. They are useful for only a little while after you get them. They don't gain in power at the same rate as your party so they become obsolete quickly after you get them.

On the other hand, I found the general battle system easier and easier to manage over time - it just takes a little forethought instead of the on the fly thinking like ATB required.

Personally, I never thought that Quickenings were overpowered. I used them, but they were never my main source of damage. I always had to do at least 80% of the damage to bosses of my own accord. I recommend getting yourself a good strategy, whether that involves tracking your characters (what I did) or choosing 3 generalists (this may require farming some LP and money).



That's...how I felt about political drama, too....
"An irrelevant headache".....XP

Tell me more about why you like the story! So that I can enjoy it, too....<<

Hmmm norse, it seems from what you've written above that you are just barely starting the game! Trust me, the story develops a LOT from where you are now. I dont' want to tell you specifically WHY I liked the story because doing so would totally spoil you because overall, it's the intricaces and parallels in the stories of both heroes and villians that I found most fascinating. I really liked watching Ashe's journey and development in particular.

Generally though I like the feel of the story. I like the humor. I like the care taken to bring each character to life through his or her voice acting and animation (including accents, etc). The writing was amazing - I loved the sort of over the top old fashioned way of speaking, even (maybe especially) when it was a little "overdone"! I liked the serious feel of the game.

I liked how I didn't hate anyone! I'm used to there being at least one character I don't like (or all of them in certain games >.> ), but I liked everyone in FF12. They seemed so genuine, not the fakey popstar stuff I've been used to Square pumping out lately. The villians and side characters are all top-notch, well developed characters as well, that really impressed me. Some of the best cutscenes are the ones where you see what's happening in Archadia.

I like how you have to pay attention to really get what's going on. Not a word spoken is "irrelevant" (if you treat it as such you'll probably get really confused and will probably hate the story).

Everyone has really valid points for liking or disliking this game in various ways.

I, myself, was rather thrown when I first started playing it. FF12 is completely different to any other FF game I have played. I was rather dismayed at the way actual character development was pushed to the back to make room for the political advancements of the tale and the overarching plot. That's a personal choice though. I like character driven stories, doesn't mean though that FF12 is bad. It's just different.

The Gambit system I think is a clever illusion. Take away the fact that your characters automatically do whatever they are supposed to be doing and it would be like any other FF battle where you input the (often tedious and repetative) commands. The fact that I don't have to tell my gang to constantly 'attack' every turn is refreshing and makes the battle system a great deal more enjoyable for myself. The magick attacks however do disappoint on several levels. Maybe it is the games 'realistic' approach that causes this. And yet it still isn't a good excuse seeing as game developers must know that fans love to get such fanservice.

On that note I will move onto boss battles. Overwhelming or utterly underwhelming? They certainly don't have the glitz and glam of previous bosses. I can understand why this is, but I don't understand why they can't just say 'screw this, we'll seperate the bosses from the enemies and ramp up the battles'. Sure, the age old 'there's a save point... there's a new area coming up' applies. You can anticipate the boss battles, but in the end bosses tend to be like normal monsters, only more powerful and on the odd occassion throw up a special attack. Half of them aren't even more 'annoying' than regular monsters. That is best kept to the rare hunts. Some of those rare hunts are far more difficult to battle than actual bosses. Ah well.

I apologise that I can't quote whoever brought this up (i tried scrolling up and looking, but it's totally gone now :-S ) but they were dismayed at how underwhelming the size of these bosses are. Again goes back to bosses just being overgrown fiends. Aside from Esper battles there isn't a boss battle that really sticks out in my mind. And yes, they seem to be shamefully small. But I also want to say here that if you want a truely humoungous enemy to fight go find yourself the Hell Wyrm. It's.... huge. Massive, any other adjectives which means 'big' too. It's amazing and my jaw hit the floor.

This game has great replay value. Even though most of the side quests revolve around killing things it is still fun and challenging. Out of all the FF series this game gets my vote for most enjoyable gameplay due to the gambit system and the ease with which you can complete sidequests. But of course that's only because I lack the patience for most side-quests and mini games.

As I was playing through the bulk of the game it grew on me. I may not like certain things about it but the world grew on me. I think there's plenty of background information on the world if you finish the beastier and read everything it has to offer. I havn't finished the game yet but am on the very last leg. Just doing hunts now, primarily. It does annoy me that some ultimate weapons (Zodiac Spear) are unreachable because I didn't go looking for walkthroughs or help until I had alredy opened a few of those holy chests which thou dareth not touch. I agree with Prak on that regard. Where is the fun in discovering things if half the things you should find are so well hidden and there are no hints within the game what-so-ever. Blah, I say.

Anyway, I think that's all for now. Sorry that I couldn't bring anything new to the table. I'm just enjoying reading this thread.

Okay, let's see what I can do here...

Story --- If you're playing a Final Fantasy game, then you accept to some degree that it is not an proper role-playing game. But that doesn't mean that there isn't character development. Let's take a look.


We have Balthier --- who seems to be a pirate who is focused mainly on himself and his own affairs. But who is he, really? It turns out that he's the son of Doctor Cid, plus he's heavily involved with Fran --- who he ends up getting married to?

We have Captain Basch, my favorite main character of the game. Basch, a man defeated, but still clinging to his honor. Basch --- who has a brother who works for the Empire and who he has been mistaken for. A man who must come to terms and find something and someone to protect, plus face the failures of his past.

Okay, how about Fran? A mysterious one. Still carries some of that Viera coldness, but has gone out into the world and found something else. The woman who has nothing to prove, really, who is on her own personal journey to find what she wants out of life. And who must also struggle with her decision to largely cut ties with her own people.

Ashe - A tough nut to crack. Who is Ashe, and what does she want? Is she after revenge, restoring the power of herself and her people, or what? And how will the new friends and allies she makes affect this?

Vaan - As I have admitted in other threads, Vaan seems to me to be a mix of Butz/Bartz from Final Fantasy V and Tidus from Final Fantasy X. Unlike other recent Final Fantasy protagonists, Vaan is not destined to fall in love with the main female character of this game. Isn't that a nice change? Like Butz/Bartz, Vaan seems to be in some ways, largely simply along for the ride. But as the game progresses, connections are revealed and Vaan begins to find his path.

Penelo - A lot like Rikku from FFX. A bubbly, fun sort, but troubled by the things that are happening in her life and the lives of those around her. As the game progresses, she begins to relax more and more of her fun side comes out.


No more time --- I'll have to add more detail and respond to your other two points later. I also need to add in a bit on NPCs / Guest Characters...

Agent, most of what you describe here is nothing but backstory and events, not actual personality development. Therefore, I'm just going to write this post off as a non-argument and move on.


Gameplay - Okay, watch Argument A. fly out the window. If you don't like the Quickenings system, there's a simple solution --- don't use it! Besides, this same argument pretty much applies to pretty much any Final Fantasy limit break system, FFVIII's especially. Also, the further you progress in the game, the less useful Quickenings become. The greatest advantage of Quickenings is that they essentially take you out of the battle as such --- while you're running Quickenings, the enemy can't touch you. I don't think this an unfair advantage against enemies in a game where your opponents can put up Palings and Magick Shields, making them completely invincible for a while.

You used the "don't use it" defense. I specifically addressed that in the first post and you used it anyway. For shame.

Also, comparing it to the equally broken systems of other Final Fantasy games isn't a defense in itself. It is more of a condemnation of the design of the entire series.


Secrets - Prak, you win some points for this one. Some of this crap really is impossible to figure out your own. Like the Zodiac Spear or even having to summon Belias to pass through certain points. But you're forgetting ne thing --- the Internet. Unless you're a moron, or you live in a cave somewhere and don't have Internet, there's no reason why you have to buy the strategy guide. I mean, if it's something you want to get, then that's cool. But there's plenty of great guides out there already, and if you still can't figure it out after looking at GameFAQs or whatever, you can always ask a question here. But I will agree that Kingdom Hearts, and even more so Kingdom Hearts II is more fun that way --- there's no missable secrets in Kingdom Hearts II, really. Everything is compiled in Jiminy's Journal, so if you're missing something, you pretty much know it.

I'm afraid I have you on this one also. As you should well know, the game was marketed alongside its guide, so a great many people bought it right up front. The size of the guide alone implies (to the less astute) that it would be useful. Also, guides do not tend to reach the internet for several days after a game is released, and it can take several weeks for complete guides to appear. Do you think people are likely to wait for internet guides to be finished or will they cave in and buy the official guide? Please don't answer that, as it was rhetorical. The simple fact is that a lot of guides have been sold, due in large part to the amount of stuff hidden in the game.


Licenses - Well, you're sort of right. I dunno, I don't really play most Final Fantasies that way. Magicks and technicks and stuff are useful for support, but I generally rely more on physical attacks. I will agree that LP farm is too easy, but again, it's more a matter of how much time are you going to spend on it? If you don't want to nerf the difficulty of the game, then just don't spend so much time doing it.

For the record, I didn't spend any more time on it than was required to get through an area. I pretty much rushed through it since there I never ran into anything that posed a significant challenge. If I still found it piss-easy after playing like that, it's broken.


agent0042--i'm sure u might b a mod,or respectected highly dude around here,.but apparently,.ur very new to the internet OLDTIMER grammar & puntuation? get real dude,if u got music downloading,2 forums pages,& 3 other pages up,.runnin adaware ready to post ya latest song,. u gunna type quick,..

now on the other hand,.. if ur 30,.& livin in ya parents basement,play ff all day every day,& steal the souls of innocent children,just to sell em 4 the new game,.cuz u got no job,.. then sure,take all the time u need there sweet heart,..

here's an idea,..join a writers forum WHERE THEY GIVE A FUCK!!!

in closing,.up ur vocab,.& impress me w/ an iq higher than ur shoe size,. mines 167,. what's ur's mr. bright??

Agent is correct. You are a fucktard. Now stop shitting up the thread.


I'm going to try to respond to some of Prak's specific comments on the story so ifeel free to skip past.

Story - First off, In my opinion, the story of this game was the best in any FF game since FF6 - phenomenal, but I think it's all a matter of what you like. If you like teen angst and sappy romance this isn't for you. If you want a lighter tone like Kingdom Hearts or FFX-2 this isn't for you. If you want a political drama with fantasy elements and likable characters, then you might like it.

Way to say nothing that actually addresses my complaints.


You bring up some interesting theories about the nature of RPG's vs Adventure games, and what you perceive as Western vs. Japanese storytelling methods. Personally, I think these distinctions are paper-thin at best.

That's nice. I dislike you already and am not taking you very seriously at this point.


First of all, the term RPG has always been misleading when applied to console games. There are very few console games where you actually role-play per se and they always end up being limited in scope in some way. For example Oblivion has wonderful world richness and freedom, but I found it lacking in how much you could actually effect within game on a 1 on 1 basis.

Nearly every console RPG would be I guess what you define as an "Adventure" game (though I've never heard anyone else define Adventure game as "RPG where you don't roleplay"). The reason games like FF, DQ, etc are called RPG's is because they follow the general scheme of the original RPGs like D&D: A party of adventurers explores a world, fights monsters, gets stronger, and interacts with one another. FF12 fits that mold as well as any console RPG.

Somewhat ironically given the term, the part that's lacking is player input - the roleplaying itself. However, it's a functional definition and IMO it's silly trying to come up with new terms that no one else uses. FF12 is, like every other FF game, a console RPG, not an adventure game. Some have more freedom of character development than others (KOTOR comes to mind - in many ways a traditional console RPG but it does let you make meaningful roleplaying decisions), all have variations in gameplay, but all that means is that they are different games, not different genres (though I will admit overlap certainly exists - some games I'd call RPG's you don't even level up, some adventure games you do, but that's all semantics again).

Every bit of the ignorant bullshit you've spewed here has been thoroughly redressed in this thread (Thread 29666), so I'm not going to bother typing it all out again. Go read that, then come back here.


Now about your Japanese/Western distinction.

There is no "Japanese" method of storytelling and there is no "Western" method of storytelling. There are just different storytellers, or writing styles if you will. The storytelling of Matsuo and his team, as shown in this game, FFTactics, and Vagrant Story is different from the storytelling of the other recent FF games (lets say FF7-10), but it's not more "Western". It's just the product of a different storyteller(s), nothing more to it.

Now, if you don't like Matsuo's style that's one thing. But unless you're a dedicated scholar in both American and English literature I think you'd be hard pressed to define exactly what distinguishes Western and Eastern storytelling even in the classic works of each.

The whole point is especially silly when you consider that the plot, story, and setting of FF (and DQ and every other Fantasy jRPG) was originally inspired by a western game (D&D), and then written by Japanese D&D fans! Simple concepts such as Japanese and Western become inextricably tangled in the modern world.

Do you simply pull these arguments out of your ass? It's very obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

First, a toddler could look at Japanese and Western storytelling methods in video games (particularly what each defines as role-playing games) and see a difference. I elaborated on the differences earlier in the thread, so I will not repeat myself unless you have a specific point you want me to focus on and expand.

You also don't seem to understand the origins of "jRPGs" particularly well. Certainly, they did model those games after D&D to an extent, but having had no experience at all with the precursors of D&D, they didn't know why it warranted the creation of the RPG title. The actual role-playing aspects of D&D were not a part of their product. Instead, they incorporated systems that originated in minature-based wargames. Therefore, through sheer ignorance (innocent, but nonetheless wrong), they mistook the meaning of the term and applied it to games that did not warrant it.

ili - I liked your points, especially the boss battles. Glad there are others who miss having more "dedicated" battles, one with more pressure and meaning. You did say that one should find the Hell Wyrm to see a huge boss and they would be impressed. There have been times when I came across some really impressively sized bosses/hunting marks. My problem with some of the huge battles is that I can't see all of the boss. I would love for the camera to shift downward, zoom out, and be behind my characters when I come upon a truly huge boss. I want to feel like I could be utterly crushed by the boss, so once I beat it, then I get a greater feeling of satisfaction and achievement.

Which brings me to my next point along the same lines of satisfaction and achievement. I was playing last night and realized that the whole license system/character developement scheme really kills the challenge of the game. Since all the characters are the same (at least in my game) it doesn't make a difference who dies in combat. For example, last night Ashe went down (in my game she is used for support/magic). All I needed to do was have Basch (he's my tank) cast Arise...and away I went. Sure this was easy and I'm glad I could do it, but I also realized that it took away from the challenge. In older FF games the player would have had to change strategies in the middle of the battle to account for losing their healer. Or if you lost your fighter than support characters were at risk to take huge HP losses. I liked the cerebralness of the earlier games for this reason. There was no better feeling than being in a long battle where you had to overcome the bosses attacks, status effects, and losing role characters while changing stategies the whole time. It took skill and timely player intervention. I can honestly say the only truly gratifying battle I ever had in this game (gratifying being defined as having to skillfully manuever and utilize many different strategies to win the battle) was with the esper in the Necrohol. I think that if character developement was linear and roles were static, then battles could be more dramatic and offer the player a higher level of satisfaction after winning an extremely difficult fight. It's not much fun to go up to a boss, cast dispel, and pound away.

However, maybe someone can comment on the AI of the bosses. I think they really need to adjust this since many are "dumb". Like why don't they cast Dispel on my characters? If I enter the battle with tons of status protections, then why wouldn't a boss want to get rid of them? It seems only natural for a foe to counter your moves. However, in this game, it seems that bosses follow a set pattern when they fight. I wish they would "think" through their moves rather than "blindly" cast spells or attack.

ouch prak- you really are upset....of course, when Synthia posted this line, I had to also write it off:
There is no "Japanese" method of storytelling and there is no "Western" method of storytelling.

Synthia, I hope you didn't mean to trap yourself by using such a definitive statement. How can you just flat out state there is absolutely no difference between cultural interpretations of a story or how to construct a story. I'm not sure what your background is, but I would seriously suggest an introduction to literature course (please, make it a college level, oh, and not from phoenix university, find an acually accredited school). Sure there are differences among storytellers, but a story teller is influenced by cultural experiances and expectations. And there is quite a difference between Japanese culture vs. Western culture. The internet has not totally destroyed boundry lines between cultures. If your statement was correct, then all art, architecture, writing, languages, philosophies, etc. would be the same.

Actually, I'm not upset at all. I'm just extremely blunt when dealing with stupidity.

I dont want to sound like a smart arse or make out i have a higher IQ than any of you genius's but that belius gate thing took me like 2 minutes to work that out.

Yeah... I gotta say... I know some people like being able to decide what characters play what roles in battle, but I don't care for it. I don't like having to customize the characters myself. It makes me feel like they're all the same. I'd rather have certain characters able to do certain things or better at certain things. It just kind of takes away from the game for me.

*munches popcorn*

Agent, most of what you describe here is nothing but backstory and events, not actual personality development. Therefore, I'm just going to write this post off as a non-argument and move on.
I would disagree. There was some signficant personality development in this game and it wasn't just backstory.


You used the "don't use it" defense. I specifically addressed that in the first post and you used it anyway. For shame.
Ah... shoot. Okay, you win that one.


I'm afraid I have you on this one also. As you should well know, the game was marketed alongside its guide, so a great many people bought it right up front. The size of the guide alone implies (to the less astute) that it would be useful. Also, guides do not tend to reach the internet for several days after a game is released, and it can take several weeks for complete guides to appear. Do you think people are likely to wait for internet guides to be finished or will they cave in and buy the official guide? Please don't answer that, as it was rhetorical. The simple fact is that a lot of guides have been sold, due in large part to the amount of stuff hidden in the game.
You win... sort of. Yes, the game was marketed alongside the guide, but there is still nobody forcing you to buy it. If you're smart, or you really want to save your money, you'll just wait until more Internet guides are up. Besides, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't try to go for all the secrets the first time I play through the game anyway.


For the record, I didn't spend any more time on it than was required to get through an area. I pretty much rushed through it since there I never ran into anything that posed a significant challenge. If I still found it piss-easy after playing like that, it's broken.
Noted. I'm guessing you didn't sidequest much or go on many Hunts.


Um, anyway, moogle love! Yeah, that's it! If nothing else, this game trumps all previous FF games by the sheer force of the overwhelming awesomeness of its moogles. :D

I would disagree. There was some signficant personality development in this game and it wasn't just backstory.

I suppose I can simply agree to disagree in this case, as I don't have detailed knowledge of the later parts of the game. However, they most definitely lacked any significant personality development at the point I stopped playing, which was roughly 25 hours or so into it. If it takes that long for some merit to appear, something is wrong.


You win... sort of. Yes, the game was marketed alongside the guide, but there is still nobody forcing you to buy it. If you're smart, or you really want to save your money, you'll just wait until more Internet guides are up. Besides, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't try to go for all the secrets the first time I play through the game anyway.

Now you're simply forcing your own sensibilities onto the issue to narrow its focus. I am referring to a broader mentality that game design has been suffering from since the late 1990s. You cannot expect people to be happy with not playing a game completely just because an internet guide hasn't appeared. They've paid for a game and it should be fully accessible to them immediately.


Noted. I'm guessing you didn't sidequest much or go on many Hunts.

Actually, I did everything I came across up to the point I quit playing, but I didn't stray very far off the main path or anything.


Um, anyway, moogle love! Yeah, that's it! If nothing else, this game trumps all previous FF games by the sheer force of the overwhelming awesomeness of its moogles. :D

I honestly can't argue with you about the moogles being neat...

I don't have time for a more detailed response right now, so I'll simply ask this --- You say you were "25 hours in." Can you specify exactly where you were when you stopped playing?

you know prak, for someone who hasn't even been completely through the game, how come you can offer critism? you slam me in the x-2 section for not giving enough evidence to support my opinion that x-2 sucks. using that argument, then you also can't give your opinion since you have yet to experiance ALL of the nuances of ff 12. you're like a food critique who eats the appetizer and salad, skips the main course and desert, then posts a review on where the resturant fails. (agent, as much as i don't agree with you most of the time, i think that your last post asking how many hours prak had played was on the mark). and don't say "the game lacked so much i just couldn't take it".

*Munches more popcorn*

I don't have time for a more detailed response right now, so I'll simply ask this --- You say you were "25 hours in." Can you specify exactly where you were when you stopped playing?

I was somewhere past Raithwall's Tomb, although how far past that point I had gotten, I don't recall. Probably not more than a couple of hours.


you know prak, for someone who hasn't even been completely through the game, how come you can offer critism?

I can most certainly criticize something I found faults with, even if I did not play it all the way through, especially considering that I stopped playing it because I became disgusted with these same faults.


you slam me in the x-2 section for not giving enough evidence to support my opinion that x-2 sucks. using that argument, then you also can't give your opinion since you have yet to experiance ALL of the nuances of ff 12.

Maybe you didn't notice due to being a moronic cunt, but I have justified everything I have said to this point. I have listed examples and/or analyses of each and every one of my complaints. If you did the same, then I would at least treat you with a modicum of respect.


you're like a food critique who eats the appetizer and salad, skips the main course and desert, then posts a review on where the resturant fails.

Nice analogy, but it fails for reasons listed above.


(agent, as much as i don't agree with you most of the time, i think that your last post asking how many hours prak had played was on the mark). and don't say "the game lacked so much i just couldn't take it".

Yet that is PRECISELY what happened. I found the game to be markedly inferior to other things I could be playing, so I put it down and moved on to better things.

For the record, my main gripe was with the gameplay.
I don't like the idea of play something that feels like an MMO but isn't, nor do I like games that are horribly easy. Especially after I've played games like Valkyrie Profile 2 where the game difficulty is increased with each successive playthrough.

kilgoretrout25 - With the Square titles, it doesn't take much to figure out that they feed you the same bullshit from beginning to end.

Furthermore, I have yet to find a recent Final Fantasy where bosses aren't beaten by mashing the X or O button.

i agree that you do offer plenty of examples and most of your points i agree with. but my point is that you did not give the game its due. how do you know that your opinions would not have changed if you had continued to play the game? you don't. for example, i hastily posted that i thought reddes was a pointless extra character. i posted that while he was still in my party. however, and to be spoiler free, when i found out his back story, i was appeiciative of the added depth. maybe you should finish the game out and put your initial opinions to the test? maybe the "main course" or "desert" might impress you?

Furthermore, I have yet to find a recent Final Fantasy where bosses aren't beaten by mashing the X or O button.

Sorry, off topic... Ignore this post

Have you played Dirge of Cerberus zetsumei? There's more to than hitting the X/O button...

...continue your bickering

Yes, I have played through Dirge of Cerberus...and yes you can beat bosses by mashing the attack buttons. And yes Extra Hard is extra easy if you have more than 2 brain cells...continue your masturbating while thinking of how "great" you think you are.

Prak --- let me just say this --- if you have only played a little past Raithwall's tomb, then you have seen nothing yet. You're only like maybe a quarter or less of the way into the story and you haven't seen anywhere near the best of what this game has to offer. My advice --- follow what everybody else here has said and at least try to play through the rest of the game.


Sometimes that's just the way it is. Some things have a slow start. I must admit, I found the beginning of Kingdom Hearts II to be not too good either. But once I really got into it, I quite enjoyed it.


Anyway, do try to give it a shot. I really would be interested to hear more if you play through more of the game.

i agree that you do offer plenty of examples and most of your points i agree with. but my point is that you did not give the game its due. how do you know that your opinions would not have changed if you had continued to play the game? you don't. for example, i hastily posted that i thought reddes was a pointless extra character. i posted that while he was still in my party. however, and to be spoiler free, when i found out his back story, i was appeiciative of the added depth. maybe you should finish the game out and put your initial opinions to the test? maybe the "main course" or "desert" might impress you?

I played the game for over 25 hours. If it didn't improve before then, it's is highly unlikely that it would later. And even if it did improve, that still does not forgive the fact that I spent over a day playing a critically flawed game. Imagine, for example, that in order to eat your dessert (borrowing your analogy), you first had to eat a large serving of a food you hate. Would the dessert be worth it? The answer to most people would be no.

This applies as a response to Agent's last post as well.

Sorry, but you're flat wrong. You haven't even gotten anywhere near the dessert yet. You're still warming up on the appetizer, really.

25 hours sounds like too much to me for somebody that's only at the point you're at. You claim to have done pretty much all the sidequest stuff to that point, but I'm well past that point in my current playthrough and I'm still somewhat behind 25 hours. Anyway, it's your choice. Given that you claim your party is souped-up, why not try forgetting about some of the side-stuff and just continue with the main plot for now?


If there's nothing else I can say to convince you to continue playing, that's fine. Just say so. (And I'll stop trying.)

I haven't said I won't try again at some point in the future, but I honestly just don't care at this point.

Also, it's possible that I may have left the game paused for a while or something and left the house. That could account for the time discrepancy. Either way, there is no excuse for a game presenting such a poor face to me for so long, and it is certain that a lot of my complaints (maybe even all of them) would remain even if I did play through it completely. Heck, I'd probably find new ones.

And please note that I've never said that it's necessarily a bad game. I've merely said that it is fundamentally flawed and incredibly overrated.

Okay, well, I hope that you do eventually decide to give it another shot. How about this? --- Play it for the moogles. The moogles miss you. Especially Montblanc. He's counting on you to finish the hunt.

Haha there is no way in hell I'm going to try to complete all those ridiculous hunts, especially the ones with absurdly powerful creatures with millions of hit points. That kind of things bores the crap out of me. If they want to make a challenge, that's the wrong way to do it: the lazy developer's way. That kind of thing is nothing more than a test of stamina.

*Grabs a pop*

Shut the fuck up already.

*grabs more pop*

Okay, then at least keep an eye out for two particular hunts --- the International Man of Mystery (okay, actually Ancient Man of Mystery) and the hunter stalker. Both are interesting aren't just about trying to hack away at something with tons of HP.


P.S. --- Irinicus --- is that orange soda you're drinking? If so, deal me in. If not, probably not interested.

o.k., so i think we qualified our thoughts, why not quantify them with a rating and then give your points as to why you gave that score? how bout base your score out of 10.

i'd give the game 7 outta 10.

the good:
it had an interesting political story line, nice cut scenes and voice acting, very nice graphics, paid attention to small details in the environments (like canabalize, light rays through the roof, mist effects in feywood), attack system was good for basic battles, hunts and sidequest favor left brained people

the bad:
music was o.k.-nothing memorable, attack system still needs work, character progression becomes blurred with having the same licenses for all characters, some characters don't have an influencial role in the story, need $20 for stategy guide (or have internet, which some people don't have), espers are useless, gambit system needs tweaking, load times between areas and then having to repeatively go in and out of areas for certain "events" to happen which is dictated by the environmental shift, right brained people won't like the tediousness and orderliness required for most of the game.

Agent - It IS orange soda. *passes a can to Agent*. Want some popcorn too?

I stopped playing after 21 hours for lack of interest in the story. I busted my ass to go get it at midnight, skipped classes the next day, just for me to drop the game not even a week later; talk about disappointing. (I'd rather play a mindless game like We <3 Katamari at this point) However, as of late, my console gaming interest and motivation is basically dead, I have no incentive to sit in my room and play a game... instead; I sit on forums, watch anime, and do most of my work on the computer.

Eventually, when I'm bored out of my fucking mind and out of origami paper, I'll sit down and replay it. Otherwise, I'm not going to evalute something that hasn't gotten my attention and I will refrain until then.

Also, Irinicus, shut the fuck up.

kilgore...take a look at what Agent posted here (Thread 35345) and you'll see why giving an overall rating basically tells everyone nothing.

Actually, I'm not upset at all. I'm just extremely blunt when dealing with stupidity.

hAHAHA! Prak has to have the voice of Megatron. I personaly never liked any of the X's, you?

zetsumei-hence i asked for people to explain what they liked/disliked that way the number can be evaluated per their responses. it's both qualitative and quantitative. this is exactly what agent wanted in that post you linked.

Numbers for individual categories are still a better idea...

ok, what ever floats your boat...so will these help:

blood/gore...................................5
sadistic themes............................4
cruelty to animals.........................10
crimes against humanity.................6
content worth masturbating to........2

Don't try to be cute or clever, because you suck at both.

LOL content worth masturbating to, hehe, that should be a 10+ if you are in the village of Viera's, hehe.

right, it depends on what you like or are into...

agent, lighten up and go watch some cartoons. my 3 year old niece recommends dragontails.

ROTFL...

Nah on dragontails, hehe, you need to watch Avatar: The Last Airbender.

wow, i now have respect for you since you might have a sense of humor, lol

Hey Agent did you get your can of soda?

Twilight, its comments like that from people like you that just won't make me shut up. We are having fun here and I do apologize if my posts are off topic, but I like to insert fun where I think things maybe getting a bit out of hand. But thats just my opinion.

irinicus-i liked your additions to the thread...but you should be drinking beer over pop, it is after noon after all

Content worth masturbating to should be a zero, since they're not real...
Misa Campo IS real so you can masturbate to some of these pictures
(http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spriteshirt2ov9.jpg) (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spriteshirt4pt5.jpg) (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spriteshirt5ia0.jpg)
(http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teaseqq7.jpg)

O.O WOW Zetsu, I give that a 10+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And you are right, kilgor, BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER.

(guzzles orange soda, but also winces at the near total-destruction of this thread)

Oh, and kilgore, if only you knew what I was really laughing about...

When kilgore posted that, I imagined him masturbating to Dragontails with his 3 year-old neice. XD

i do know what you were laughing about, your own picture on your home page. it is funny, hahahahahahahahahah

Turn off TV week...how convenient XD

and agent, thanks for making my point where i said in other posts that penelo is useless. you summed her character progression as such:
how the fuck is game progression and story developement IMPROVED by her character? it's not! she's a babbling idiot who does nothing but helps to keep the fighting parties even at 3 characters each. if i wanted to see her "relax" then square should have added a mini game where i could give her a qualude and screw her up the ass!


hmm, i don't know how you play ffxii

because Penelo is extremely useful to me

she's a great mage with the highest magic and speed

long live Penelo

Penelo blows ass.

I liked the game, and I cant really critcize since Ive accepted mediocre games for what they are. Games suck as of late so Ive basically stopped caring. But I definately recognize its faults.

But the ending of this game was pretty shitty, thats the main thing I disliked. I think it may be that Im used to games that keep going after the end, like Oblivion. It was weird playing for 60 hours to see that shitty of an ending.

But then I thought about it and all FFs were like that, more or less.

I didnt read more than 30% of what everyones arguing, but I noticed the Belias or w/e thing. I thought about summoning him only because I thought his name was Gigas, and when I found out it wasnt I figured I needed to find a summon called Gigas to open the gate, so that one stumped me too.

And I suppose another major fault was when Prak pointed out it was said the game would be challenging but wasnt. Very true. Talk about ridiculously easy. I never even found items like the best weapons or accessories(because I had no idea I was at the end of the game till I started fighting Vayne) and I played through the game just using Ashe and Fran.

But Ill admit I thought the characters were excellent. The only reason I think I played it and loved certain elements however is because I havent played a FF game in years, besides replaying old ones, so my positive opinions are somewhat biased.

My post in this thread is somewhat worthless, I just figured this was a good place to get some of my thoughts of the game out.

What were your specific criticisms about the ending? I enjoyed the ending.

Penelo blows ass.
no u.

But in any case, I just thought I'd let everyone know, I've been feeling hardcore nostalgia and when you combine that with money, you get RE4. So yeah, FF12 can bite me for the time being.

I didn't like it. I've had for months and played a few hours until a boss in some temple in the god damn desert kept handing me my head in a platter. At one point I thought to myself "damn, Espanha, are you a fucking masochist? You haven't been enjoying the game since you picked it up. You like the battle system but dislike the characters and the fact there are no classes, only blank slates for you to fill with any skill you want, turning customization into a matter of simply getting every skill you might use and learn it with all the characters. Forget it and go watch some grass grow."

SPOILERS.


Well, I thought it was kind of short for one, and the song playing seemed like it was just kind of thrown in there, I dont even remember hearing it half the time, never caught my attention. Eyes on me in VIII? I thought that was great, the song went well with the ending. The theme as well as timing in most parts.(like when the clouds roll away and the song kicks up, I like that part)

It didn't really show as much about supporting characters as I would've wanted to see, it seemed just the main characters were the focus, which would make sense except there were many other characters in the game(the supporting characters played important roles in the game too). On that note I really disliked the fact that Fran and Balthier weren't shown after it mentioned the ship being taken back and Vaan going to visit them. I can kind of understand the element they tried for, a use your imagination thing, or because of their nature they were left as "unknown", but I still didn't like it.

I also assumed it would show something with them all together again. It actually seemed like they skimped on showing the main characters too, nevermind the support characters.

Also as touching as it was, I kinda chuckled and found it a little creepy how Basch wore his brother Noahs armor AND cut his hair short like his.(although that was a cool set of armor).

One thing I did like was they used Penelo as the narrator. I severely dislike Vaan. But whats with her Alladdin pants,lol.

And no extra clip during or after the credits? That didn't seem right either. I watched them, almost waiting in anticipation, just to see "The End". I did like the pictures that were used in the credits.

Thats all I can really think of for now. I really enjoyed playing through the game, and I guess ultimately the ending just seemed incomplete.

I fear you were like me... you were so absorbed into the game, you didn't hear the music. But maybe it's cause the music was so well crafted, that it sucked you into a semi conscience mode where you aren't even aware of all the elements combining and weaving into one whole experience.

For me... i'm still kind pissed the swapped the awesome chimera monster for a stupid friggin chicken. Like what the hell is with that?

I really want a piano collections to come out....

Okay, a few things:

I thought the way that they used the song was an interesting stylistic choice. To choose to have Penelo speaking over it instead of simply playing the song during the closing credits or without any accompaniment. And I liked the style of music used in the closing credits --- unusual and unique.

As for Penelo's letter, yes, I liked it too. Specifically, I kinda felt like it was a callback to Final Fantasy V, which also used the idea of the closing letter to great effect.

As for Basch --- nothing really caused me any chuckle or anything there, but I did think it was cool.


And while I was surprised that there was nothing after the ending, it's just the choice they made and I'm fine with it. Not every FF game has to have something after the closing credits. Neither Final Fantasy V did, nor Final Fantasy VI, unless you count in the bonus stuff added in the Anthology version. For that matter, I don't think IX did either, other than a secret blackjack game. And would you have preferred something stupid, like that Red XIII nonsense at the end of FFVII? The only thing I would have liked was some kind of battle results screen, like seen at the end of FFV and in the Kingdom Hearts games.

But whats with her Alladdin pants,lol.
She looked adorable, I loved that outfit... well, I like her other outfit just as much. She's such a cutie ^____^

FFIXs ending was a great one, it didn't need any bonus clips as far as Im concerned. I didn't mean I wanted something like FFVIIs, more like FFVIIIs. A little during and a little after the credits. It makes watching them that much more bearable. I felt FFXII needed this.

To be honest, I don't think my thought on the song was 100% accurate, because like I said, I didn't even really hear it. I think Id have to beat it again to really form an opinion. Also when you added the fact it wasn't meant to be playing over anything, more of a background thing for Penelo to read the letter too, it made sense to me then that my comparison of it to Eyes on Me, made no sense. I realized it was probably a good element to have in there.

But what do you think about that ending compared to others? I still think it was just too incomplete. That was the main reason I thought it needed something like a bonus clip.

Compared to others? More interesting than VI or VII. About on par with V's. Maybe not quite as interesting or fulfilling as IX, X, X-2 or perhaps VIII either, but a certain charm to it all the same.

I like happy endings :)

I think we can all agree that this game was over-hyped.

I think we can all agree that this game was over-hyped.
qft

What do you expect? It's Final Fantasy!

Ok seriously you all take a long time saying the same thing as the guy before you so why don we all say something new. And with the whole RPG thing true this might not be an true RPG but then agian if you can give me a true RPG to play then fine i will give into your point but so far in my 17 years of playing so called "RPG" i have yet to find one that was real and by that i mean that there are all in some aspect an adventure game. To be fair all games have a side of adventure without it the game would be the most boring piece of crap that anybody has ever played and then you all would bitch and moan about that. Then when someone does come out with a true RPG you are gonna find something wrong with that game as well on the forum that will eventually be started by some guy who is bored in his basement. To that pagan guy if

"you have music downloading, 2 forums pages,running adaware ready to post your latest song"

Then maybe you should stop doing so many things or maybe take a typing class so you can type fast and correctly at the same time seeing as you can multi-task so damn well. and what AGENT said was true allot of people do care maybe they don't want the site that they post on to look like someone took a shit on it and if you don't care then you should find somewhere else to post but those are just my thoughts on the matter

Please don't quote me if you can't even use punctuation. I see a total of I think one period in there.

Please don't quote me if you can't even use punctuation. I see a total of I think one period in there. Yes i understand were you are coming from and i apologize. In my defense i didn't realize that i was quoting you directly i just wanted to say something along the same lines as you. And thank you for pointing out my mistake. :)

Buddy_killer, regarding your comment about RPGs, you should read this thread (Thread 29666). The first post is fairly comprehensive and may help you appreciate what the term actually means and how it is being misused.

Besides, the whole "true RPG" thing is kind of irrelevant. If I bought a carton of milk that said it was chocolate, but it was really white milk, thats just a simple case of mis-labeling something. It would still be judged as white milk, not chocolate.

Whats wrong with having opinions and criticisms anyway? As long as there are games made there will be people to find and discuss those games' faults. Get used to it.

hey... role playing games means you play the role of a character (s). So if that is taken literally, couldn't most games be classified as RPG?

Let's just leave that discussion out of this thread, especially now that a thread dedicated to the issue has been revived.

two more cents if you don't mind,..

who'sthe numb nuts in charge of stats? like the guy that said "swords are the strongest,.. bow guns are weaker than bows,.. guns are like the weakest thing next to hand bombs,..

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?! can we spell back-asswards??

also,.i think it's too late,.but i sent 'agent0042' a formal appology,.but i think i'm already on his ignore list,.

he dissrespected me,& that's nothing,that at any given ime i am prepared to tollerate,..so don't dish it out if you can't take it,..but i did apologize,.because someone else confirmed his little coment about spelling/punctuation,.there it is,.take it or leave it agent.

If you had actually taken time to explore the weapons system, you would have realized that there is customization involved when it comes to the weapons. Poles are two-handed and have a high chance to do multiple-hits. Bows and guns are good for long-range attacks. Large katanas and swords do heavy damage, but aren't optimized for defense. Hand-bombs I haven't really played with too much, but often seem to be geared towards helping to inflict status effects.

the best gun in the game only has a 50 attack so whoever said that was correct that they are technically the weakest, but they have range and it does not matter about the characters strength so they balance out in other areas. Ninja swords are the most prone to combo attacks, so they balance out even though their best one is only 80. The two handed weapons have higher attacks, but you can't equip shields. so i've actually forgotten what the initial complaint even was here, but that's what i know. and yea i hate the espers being too weak.

Correction Cloud, guns have a weak power rating but by far are not the weakest, they are the slowest though. Fomolhaut with wyrmshot was always doing over 3000 a hit to anything I attacked, put oil on a mob and then shoot it, 9999 damage. So to say guns are the weakest, not really. If you can deal with the slowness of recharging the attack, then guns are very good.

I believe Guns just do a base damage and completly ignore enemy defense. Aside from the combo rates Agent pointed out, most of the weapons do more damage depending on other stats you boost. Katanas do more damage if you have higher Magic, Daggers do more with higher speed, and just about every weapon has some boost you can get by increasing some stat other than just strength, though some don't. Speed also helps to reduce the weapon charge time so that you can attack over and over again, which can make some of the weaker weapons better since you get more hits over time. As far as doing 9999 damage with the guns, I'm pretty sure that because you had a bullet that was fire based and oiled them up, so they'd have to be in store for some big damage. By the end of the game, weapons like the Excalibur and what not should constant be doing damage near max, especially if you berserk your own party, so it really makes bows and the like that much weaker. Understanding how weapons do damage and how they combo can help you out a lot, but the game is really just so easy that it doesn't make that much of a factor at all. Really, I don't even think the game mentions what other stats boost damage for your weapons, so I was basically just using swords the whole way through and had no problems. Suikoden II is just so much better. Play that instead, everybody. Please.

i agree with you about the guns being useful. what i meant by weakest was they have the lowest attack rating. sorry i should have been more specific. it all comes down to preference in the end. I also agree with you frasier that the game is too easy, unless you do the hunts. the main storyline is way too easy and can be done at a very low level if you so wished. the hunts however like yiazmat and omega mark xii make this game worth it. not perfect but it's enjoyable.

I would rate most of the main bosses as easy, yes. Notable exceptions include the Mandragoras (which actually count as a sort of unofficial Mark) and Vayne himself, final form --- it actually took me by surprise how long it took to bring him down, because the first two forms were so piss-weak.

I sooooo loved the Mandy's they were fun to take down.

I am actually stuck on a boss outside the Temple of Death or Doom or whatever its called - im fighting a thing called Guarda - pretty gay Flaming Eagle thing.

Did anyone do any leveling up like in the olden FF's or just go straight through the game?

Criticism - The newly adopted MMO fighting system has basically killed the new FF off for me, as i dislike MMO's, but i will complete FF12 just so i can say i have. The old (good) turned based fighting system was one of the reasons i like Final Fantasy so much - now theyve sold out, ill blame Sony for this but im sure its nothing to do with them!

Final Fantasy was never about the ATB system. I'm not gonna be silly and say "No it's not, it's all about the piano collections"... okay I am. It's all about the piano collections! And there better be a FFXII one coming soon!

The title pretty much says it all. Post your two cents if you like, but remember that if you want to defend the game, you're in for a severe uphill battle.

My gripes:

Story - It's obvious that the story is influenced heavily by those of western RPGs. And therein lies the problem. It's a Japanese game. A Japanese game should have a Japanese flavor. When it doesn't, things go wrong.

In this case, the failing is simply that FFXII is NOT a role-playing game. It is an adventure game, just like the majority of its predecessors. RPG scenarios and adventure game scenarios have to be designed differently. In the case of RPGs, development of the main character is left virtually untouched so that players can fill it out through their own actions. To make up for that, the focus is placed on developing the setting, scenario, and secondary characters. Of course, in most successful RPGs, those elements are also flexible and change depending on the traits you display through the main character's actions.

Adventure games focus more on the main character and are absolutely rigid in terms of plot progression. That is, of course, the way the Final Fantasy series has always been. The primary characters in adventure games are usually very well-developed and a great deal of time can potentially be spent exploring their personalities.

In FFXII, the focus is likewise placed on developing the setting and scenario. The problem is that the characters are pre-defined. They lack the depth and appeal of adventure game characters and are more in line with side characters in an RPG. If the Japs want to make a role-playing game, they should try to go all-out and make a real one. Don't rip the worst possible element from them and trust that a flashy execution will make up for it and convince people that different is good just because it's different.

Gameplay - Using a system basically taken right out of a MMORPG was a great idea. Breaking it with quickenings was an abominably bad idea.

I heard before the game was released that it was actually pretty hard. Imagine my surprise and outrage when I discovered that the people who made that claim were full of crap. Once you have quickenings for a few characters, the game becomes ridiculously easy. And don't even start with that nonsense about not using them to make the game harder. The objective of any game is to win, and it only makes sense to use any means at your disposal to achieve that goal. If you deliberately hold back to make something harder, it means you've acknowledged its failing on some level, even if you're not totally aware of it.

Also, gambits are nice, but there just aren't enough of them. What's more, the developers knew that and specifically designed it that way. It's obvious from the fact they limited the number of them that you can use, especially at the start. Their objective was to hold players back from doing as well as they possibly could to make the game more difficult and try to give the illusion of depth by making you find or buy new gambits. If the system was fully accessible right at the start and gave players dev-level control over the AI of the characters, it would have been ideal for a game that was more well-designed all around.

Secrets - I know I've made this rant before, but it sucks when developers hide things in a game that no one in their right mind can possibly find without some kind of guide. The series started doing this with FFVII (which was perhaps the first game to be aggressively marketed along with a strategy guide at the time of its release) and has gotten worse with almost every subsequent entry. If you hide things in such a manner that people cannot find it without a guide, you're basically locking away part of the program that they've paid for and telling them they have to shell out even more if they want it. It's only a step short of extortion.

I have other complaints, but this is pretty long already.


Prak I agree with you on most of you criticism.

I don't think ff12 being westernized is a bad thing. I think its great for
square to adopt other cultural themes and influences into their games.

I understand what you mean about rpgs and being able to define the
character's actions in order to stay true to the original rpg format.
Its either the whole rpg genre has evolved into what we see now, or the
rpg genre is mostly dead as we know it (with some exceptions). Games
like Oblivion are perfect example of giving the gamer freedom to join
an adventure and make it their own. I really have no problem calling the
final fantasy series a turn based action adventure series. Point taken.

As far as the gameplay goes in ff12, I love the fighting system. I
think the departure of random battles was a step up for the series. The
fighting system does become too easy with the quickenings as you
stated. As soon as I figured out how to use them properly and swap between party members in order to use the next groups quickenings, every boss battle
is extremely easy. Of course you can "not" use them to make the fight
tougher, but what's the point of that?

The gambit system is cool. But the lack of difficulty in the battles
really doesn't let the whole gambit system shine. Its basically fight a
boss, use your quickening, and collect you LP.

The whole license board doesn't bother me too much, but its not deep or
complex at all. Its strips each character out of its indivdualitliy. Of
course you can customize your character to your liking but for what
purpose? You'll just have an excess of LP just sitting around. If you
level in the game, you're going to get enough LP. Might as well use it
and fill up the board. Sure the characters are different because of
their personalities and their repective look, but in battle they all
turn out to be the same.

Having the License board for your weapons is a good idea, but you'll
almost always have enough LP to acquire the license for every weapon.
It would have been good if SE decided to have players go through certain
side quests to aquire certain licenses for strong weapons. Just being
able to open almost the whole board early in the game doesn't make too
much sense.

I do understand what you mean about the secrets in ff12. For example
the chests you can't open in order to unlock a certain weapon. I can
understand if an NPC mentioned this to you, but to just totally throw
something in there like that isn't agood idea. What's a players natural
reaction when they see a chest? Open it right? I still don't see what
you mean saying the secrets in FF7 were so hard to find without a
guide.

I haven't played through the game enough to comment on the story. I am
having a lot of fun playing the game and leveling though. I do like the
storyline so far from what I've experienced. I do like the characters
so far. Balthier being my favorite as of now. Hopefully I can dig into the
game so I can actually beat it. I have a lot of games to juggle though
lol.

I sooooo loved the Mandy's they were fun to take down.
That's a type of malboro, right? I thought it was kinda funny and fun how they gave some of them names like "Cassie" and "Vivian."

I don't think he meant Malboro. Mandy's are the mandragora Boss in the Sochen Cave I believe. They're squirrely little buggars that are fast and agile. You find their lesser bethrens everywhere thereafter. But you're right about Cassie and Vivian though...cute names but mean disposition.

I think all your points goes back to the gambit system. I'm not a fan as it makes battles very automatic and uninteresting. I long for the days of battle using the ATB and interchangeable characters like in X where what each does is sooooo manual.

I actually liked the Gambits system --- it freed the player up from what I thought was a lot of needless and tiresome tedium in some cases. For my part, I just thought it could have used some tweaking. I 100% agree with Prak that most if not all of the Gambits should have been available a lot earlier in the game, there should have been more Gambit slots, and there were certain Gambits that probably should have been available that weren't.

Time Assassin is correct. Mandy's is the name given to Mandragora's in FFxi, well actually it is the nickname for them. Cassie and Vivian are indeed named Marlboro's and they also appear in FFxi as well as HNM's. Sometimes I miss playing FFxi.

'K. I haven't fought any Mandys yet, so I just thought it was another malboro I hadn't met yet, given those other names.

I actually liked the Gambits system --- it freed the player up from what I thought was a lot of needless and tiresome tedium in some cases. For my part, I just thought it could have used some tweaking. I 100% agree with Prak that most if not all of the Gambits should have been available a lot earlier in the game, there should have been more Gambit slots, and there were certain Gambits that probably should have been available that weren't.

I think they also should've added a TRUE/FALSE equation into the scripting of the gambits. Sometimes I would have a gambit set up, and it would be active, but it wouldn't be doing it's task. For example:

I had Penelo set up with Ally: weakest defense - Bubble.

Most of the time this worked like a charm, but one time I realized a bit too late into the fight that Penelo wasn't doing anything but casting Bubble over and over. So, I saw that she was trying to cast it on Larsa. Unfortunately, Larsa was apparently immune to that, so Penelo was just wasting her time and MP.

I know you could rearrange the gambits, but I never seemed to get exactly what I wanted. If the programmers had figured something into the scripting where it worked off of a TRUE/FALSE equation, Penelo's endless casting of Bubble could've been prevented.

Agent, you didnt fight the Mandys in Sochen Palace? The 'unofficial mark' given my the kid in I think its Tchita Uplands? Well technically they are not all mandy's but they are similar to them. Its the mark where there are 5 of them and they run all over the place?

Well, I got the idea that you were referring to an actual enemy named "Mandy" as opposed to just mandragoras. Anyway, yeah, I fought those. They show up in the bestiary with a number by them under the Feywood. So I'm assuming they're available to fight again, I would guess after the Pharos?


And Alexandria12 --- you're exactly correct. The TRUE/FALSE question I wished most for was "Does enemy have item to steal?" If true --- Steal, If false --- don't steal, move to next Gambit.

And Alexandria12 --- you're exactly correct. The TRUE/FALSE question I wished most for was "Does enemy have item to steal?" If true --- Steal, If false --- don't steal, move to next Gambit.

Yes! That would've been what I was looking for too. Since you had to sell loot in the game to collect gil, it was neccessary to steal from nearly every foe anyway.

For something like the Penelo-casting-Bubble issue that I had, there simply needed to be another line of script with a TRUE/FALSE equation. Whenever a new gambit was activated, an imbedded line of code would ask about the ally's/foe's status or immunities first, then based upon whether it was TRUE or FALSE, move to the appropriate gambit.

Alright I am weighing in on this one and Agent I am aware I have bad spelling and grammer I ty to fix it but if you spot please don't hold it aganist me.

To clear some things up before we begin I am at 97 hours have done all marks except the last, at the end, and have 18 rare games under my belt.

Now I know this is a constant complaint but the secert weapon Zodiac spear and WyrmHero Sword are very poorly done. The Sword which you go through so much trouble for is a piece of crap my Toursel is a better weapon then it is heck Save the queen is. It has slow charge time and while a large attack nowhere near the easier to obtain Toursel which you can get after giruvegan though it will take you awhile you can still get it easier. As for the Zodiac Spear there is no hints in game none in the Monster list none talked about by the Npcs nothing at all. I found out about it after the Marlith Mark hunt when I was trying to find where it was needless to say you could hear me curse in the next countity.
Some other problems are the Gameplay aspects such as the selection of targets where the pointer normally goes for the enemy order first A-Z instead of the enemy that is closer which has caused me a few problems. Another problem is the Drag while facing Zodiark He got off an Attack and pailing while I was still waiting for a Phoenix Down I had started before him while this has sometimes worked for me it usually bites me.
My last complaint is the enemy respawn rate where you can slug through 50 or more enemies and have 90 more to go before you hit the cap. If you need an example go to the Roblon Hunt it is the Linchpin for that argument.

Now some of the good things that have been done are the plot. Most people won't get a lot of it without playing it a second time as a philospher and thinker I picked up a good chunck of the plot though I was suprised a few times. I can't elobrate since I don't want to spoil but the choices of Reddas and Ashe were paticaurly intresting for me. I espically loved Gabranth and his troubles verus Honor anyone have Basch when they fight him the first time very nice battle talk there.
The graphics were a Nice bit though the Lag time because of them is a bit much. The spells looked nice and intresting espically Flare. The weapons were well done and I like how while they each had different attacks they made up for it with their unique special ability.
The Music I honestly can't say seeing as how I am partially deaf but the pieces I did notice seemed well done.
I also loved the Backstory/Info/Hint system they put into the Monster list it helped clear up a few questions I had and lead me to some of the secert weapons and items. My favorite is the explanation on the Magicate and Airships and their fleets you can find made things a little more Ahh thats why for me.

Now to meet some of the complaints others have brought up. The gambit system first. Yes it could have had a few touch ups done to it but it is a good way to handle automatic battle for such a big landscape. Telekenisis Foe:Flying was a godsend when I got it though it came a little late for my tastes I wanted since I noticed Vossler using it in the Sandsea. The few glitches with it such as steal and Bubble are there but I steped around that with Bubble belts and manual steal so I never ran much into it sorry.
The quicknenings that people say make the game easy. No they don't. I got my first quickening about Raithwall for Ashe and it wasn't very powerful it helped but didn't just make a IWIN button for me partially because of it location on the liscenes board and partially because I save those attacks until I need them such as with Zalera and the other more dangerous espers. I found Most quickenings plus their add on only did 20-40% of health damage and I was overleveled. I know you can get a very powerful Add-on if you chain the attacks right but I usually get only Arkblast so it doesn't help for me all that much.
The Liscenes Board and the specialization argument I find is null and Void. I personally used Fran as an Archer, Ashe as a Magic Knight, and Vaan as a Knight. Why because that was my persception of them not because of what they are limited to. I could have at any time equiped Fran with an Axe and sent her into Melee Combat I didn't because it didn't fit my idea of her nor my fighting style. By keeping her in the back out of range for most attacks she acted as my healer with Ashe as the backup. For those who say it doesn't matter which person you use that is true therotically but we all have our favorites and they tend to become Higher level more then the others hence why I have level 73 characters and level 17 it was risky when Zodiark killed all my main team with Darkja and I had to use my spare it worked but barely. Now the liscene board is twitchy I will admit since you have to slogh through alot of things you don't want need for that person but have to go through to get what you want Quickenings and espers being the big things. But I like the Idea behind it where you can therotically have the best character very early on if you farm Lp right they just did bad with the spacing of the Techs magic and so forth in the reciving end.
As for how easy it is once again no it is not. I usally was overleveled because I did ALL of the sidequest as soon as I could. Yeah I faced Gil Snapper Level 20ish I think it was. The marks make the battles HARD but make the Main Plot easy yes except I found that Status effects got used alot and let me tell you having not saved for 20 minutes and have been farming during that time to get killed by confuse sucks big time. If you ignore or wait on the Mark hunting the Main Plot will offer alot of challanges on its own. As for Park saying it was easy he obviously ran from the first DeathWall which would have dissuad him of the games ease.

The game does have its problems I will admit but for the most part I enjoy it.

For your information, not that I truly care how enlightened you are, I did not run from the first demon wall. I demolished it in very short order, which made the other one seem even more ridiculously simple.

I find it very interesting how you list problems, say why they're a problem, and then try to play them off like they're not problems at all (or follow those steps in reverse). It's like you can't decide what you want to think about the game. You also failed to address at least half of the strongest points that were made against the license board, some of which were in my first post. You have no excuse for missing those.

Wrong you obviously didn't fully read my post. I said which I agree with you on it is easy to farm Lp and get the License but you have to awiat awhile before you get it. I completely agree on that.

What I said though about the specalization is that it is not the License that control it but your game style and Idea of the characters. An example of this is Fran I saw her as an archer equiped her as such and made her my healer so set up her gambits for that. That is what specalizes the characters since a battle either takes too long or too complicated such as with the seer, beehmoth king so forth for me to control each and every character action its easier to setup a gambit system and only tweak that when I need to.

As for my 'problems' with the game I talked about the secerts, Lag time, respawn, and target selection. For your information since you seem to have misread those are complaints but not big ones. So generally I like the game so you understand I just have a few problems with it is all.

and to clairify the First DeathWall uses an attack that sucks one character out what is it? I know even when I fought it level 20 or so I still got hit and Nailed with this attack so even higher levels will.

He wasn't disagreeing, he was shooting down your argument.

He was trying and failing because he only browsed my post he only said I was undecided on the game when in truth my complaints were just small complaints. And I answered his License board question aand that is its not License its the Gambits and what equipment you have on that spelicaize a character.

Wrong you obviously didn't fully read my post. I said which I agree with you on it is easy to farm Lp and get the License but you have to awiat awhile before you get it. I completely agree on that.

If I misunderstood anything in your post, it is only due to your abysmal grammar. You have no one but yourself to blame for it.


What I said though about the specalization is that it is not the License that control it but your game style and Idea of the characters. An example of this is Fran I saw her as an archer equiped her as such and made her my healer so set up her gambits for that. That is what specalizes the characters since a battle either takes too long or too complicated such as with the seer, beehmoth king so forth for me to control each and every character action its easier to setup a gambit system and only tweak that when I need to.

And guess what - I hope you're ready for this since it's a complicated concept - not everyone sees things the same way you do. You're looking from the optimistic perspective of someone who genuinely wants to enjoy the game, no matter what. However, when you look at it objectively, I'm sure that even you can see that just because you had something in mind for a given character, that doesn't mean that you can't simply switch everything about that character to suit a new situation.


As for my 'problems' with the game I talked about the secerts, Lag time, respawn, and target selection. For your information since you seem to have misread those are complaints but not big ones. So generally I like the game so you understand I just have a few problems with it is all.

Yeah... I think I got that already. I think you, however, are thinking in circles to justify your liking of it. Of course, that much was proven when you stated that you liked the fact that you could fill the license board quickly.


and to clairify the First DeathWall uses an attack that sucks one character out what is it? I know even when I fought it level 20 or so I still got hit and Nailed with this attack so even higher levels will.

What the hell are you going on about? Are you trying to challenge my claim for some reason? If so, that's pretty lame.

EDIT: Failing? I wonder how many will agree with you. Probably not many, which means you not only fail for your atrocious grammar and unjustifiable views on the game, but you also fail for having an overly high opinion of yourself.

My grammer maybe bad but at least I have played the game. You justify everything you say based on Raithwall (and from things you say it seems like you barely touched the tomb) let me tell you here now you have seen nothing. You haven't faced a Malbro with its Cloying breath and Bad breath attack, You haven't seen a TRUE boss such as Bomb King and others, you have never faced a pailing THE most annoying tech a boss can use. In short you haven't scratched the combat that is in this game only the bosses you can defeat with attack and little to no tactics. As for Game plot you haven't seen Vayne's true Dark glory, Gabranths breaking, Ashe's decsion on revenge, Most of the Judges, Vaan's growth, and one of the better characters Reddas. Once again in short you have seen nothing.

As for the Character's and License board yes you can switch around the characters to your choice I was just saying what I saw and did, But most people chose a character path then stick with it since it is much easier to handle that way. As for liking the Farm Lp and filling the License board does it really affect the gameplay? No it doesn't because while you might have the License for something you may not get it tell much later on. Example is Telekensis I had that License since Mt-bur-omsicase or however it is spelled but I didn't get it till Pharos. So having a Full Lp Board means nota if you don't have the item/equipment to match for the spots.As well as I am still not at full LP Board I am almost there but at 97 hours plus farming and hunts I still haven't filled it so its not easy as we may think it is.
As for the DeathWall I see you still didn't answer me I know DeathWall uses this attack every time I got hit with it on a play when I died because of the time, a play where the power blackedout and on my final time. So I know it always uses this attack so if you know it put my claim to the test and answer it if you think I am Lame but so far all I see is Hot air and No lift. To help you out it is not the crush into the wall but an attack that takes away a character for awhile that I have seen only from the DeathWall.
So Prak just to be clear I am calling you on this.

My grammer maybe bad but at least I have played the game. You justify everything you say based on Raithwall (and from things you say it seems like you barely touched the tomb) let me tell you here now you have seen nothing. You haven't faced a Malbro with its Cloying breath and Bad breath attack, You haven't seen a TRUE boss such as Bomb King and others, you have never faced a pailing THE most annoying tech a boss can use. In short you haven't scratched the combat that is in this game only the bosses you can defeat with attack and little to no tactics. As for Game plot you haven't seen Vayne's true Dark glory, Gabranths breaking, Ashe's decsion on revenge, Most of the Judges, Vaan's growth, and one of the better characters Reddas. Once again in short you have seen nothing.

I have addressed every bit of this. For one thing, I went all the way through Raithwall's Tomb. Next, as I've stated earlier in this thread, there's absolutely no excuse for a game taking that long to get to anything interesting. If it was boring about 20+ hours, there's no guarantee it would be better at 40 hours. I have ZERO obligation to sit through a game that I find boring just to get to the better stuff that's supposedly found later in it. In fact, if I pay money for a game, it has an obligation to keep me consistently entertained. FFXII failed at that.


As for the Character's and License board yes you can switch around the characters to your choice I was just saying what I saw and did, But most people chose a character path then stick with it since it is much easier to handle that way.

And since when do you speak for most people? I certainly was not playing it that way. After all, when I play a game, I play to win and use the most effective methods at my disposal. If you want to treat a game more like an interactive storybook and just coast through it as simply as possible, that's your own business. Personally, I PLAY games and I expect them to be balanced for people who want to play them, not people like you.


As for liking the Farm Lp and filling the License board does it really affect the gameplay? No it doesn't because while you might have the License for something you may not get it tell much later on.

It does affect the gameplay because the fact that abilities you can buy early are withheld until later means that there's no sense focusing on just the skills you initially wanted to assign a character. My designated healer very quickly wound up with a slew of white magic licenses she couldn't use for a long time with LP to spare. Consequently, my healer wound up also being a ranged specialist with every black magic spell available and various augments that she didn't need in the first place.

It defeats the entire purpose of trying to specialize, nerfs the difficulty of the game, and makes the entire thing one big insult to my intelligence.


Example is Telekensis I had that License since Mt-bur-omsicase or however it is spelled but I didn't get it till Pharos. So having a Full Lp Board means nota if you don't have the item/equipment to match for the spots.

Yes, we agree on that. Now you merely need to agree on the point that the same thing limits the number of available licenses and makes it pointless to get anything but what's immediately available, which will result in all your characters being virtually identical.


As for the DeathWall I see you still didn't answer me I know DeathWall uses this attack every time I got hit with it on a play when I died because of the time, a play where the power blackedout and on my final time. So I know it always uses this attack so if you know it put my claim to the test and answer it if you think I am Lame but so far all I see is Hot air and No lift. To help you out it is not the crush into the wall but an attack that takes away a character for awhile that I have seen only from the DeathWall.
So Prak just to be clear I am calling you on this.

And I refuse to dignify that with an answer. Do you dare press further and risk further damage to the already-dire impression you've given us of yourself?

What Dire-impression you so far and Z.Zetsumei are the only ones who have at all said anything notice that.
As for what I said on the Characters it is based on the What do your characters do thread where I saw many people focus on a play type then made their characters match it.
As for the Lp why have a kill like Flare right of the back? It makes no sense it is way over powered and too costly for most people at level 15-20 without augments. It isn't nefred as you claim but rather setup in duel stage growth not only do you have to track the abilities down such scathe and ardor but you have to also get the liscene. Why did they do this I don't know but usually by the time I got the ability I had the liscene unless if I hadn't been using that character for that direction such as vaan only having basic spells until after the Mt-bur-omasice. So it really doesn't affect the gameplay except as a headsup here what you can get thing.

Now as for DeathWall you have sidestepped a Valid proof question so until you have the Answer which is easy to get it, something the instruction booklet talks about in the status affects just to help you find it, I am going to have to consider you all talk no exp.

And why do you think no one else has said anything? Think carefully. I'm not going to give you the answer, so the pressure's on you to figure it out. After all, revelations must be earned.

Your further defenses of the game's system are merely running in circles, dancing around my own points, so I shall ignore them until you address them directly.

And as for the Demon Wall, answering your silly trivia question would prove nothing. I could just as easily look it up on any walkthrough out there and you'd never be the wiser. So if I answered it, would you simply accept my answer as proof that I knew what I was talking about or would you question me anyway? That is why whether I know it from playing the game or not is irrelevant and that is why I won't dignify the question with an answer.

If you looked at a Walkthrough it would still give you some idea on how things go so yes I would accept now answer the question.

As for the others not posting its not what you think they are waiting for us to finish argueing either because it entarins them, they want to see where this go, unsure how to get in or my personal favorite see which of us brings the other down.

Now you want your points answered fine because your points are buried post them again clear and to the point and I will answer them.
You will have a few hours to do this because I have business to handle but when I come back I shall answer your points if they are fair enough prak.

I do have one question before I go why do you post in the FFXII section if you hate the game so much? I don't do that to FFXI which I cant stand online plays like that so I am curious why you do it?

If you looked at a Walkthrough it would still give you some idea on how things go so yes I would accept now answer the question.

And I still refuse to give you an answer. It is a pointless and idiotic question that will prove nothing, so I continue to refuse to dignify it with an answer.


As for the others not posting its not what you think they are waiting for us to finish argueing either because it entarins them, they want to see where this go, unsure how to get in or my personal favorite see which of us brings the other down.

Not exactly, but you came a little close with one of your little theories. Try again.


Now you want your points answered fine because your points are buried post them again clear and to the point and I will answer them.
You will have a few hours to do this because I have business to handle but when I come back I shall answer your points if they are fair enough prak.

How about I not. The burden is on you and I will not make any extra effort to pick up your slack just because you seem to want to be lazy.


I do have one question before I go why do you post in the FFXII section if you hate the game so much? I don't do that to FFXI which I cant stand online plays like that so I am curious why you do it?

There are several reasons.

1. I paid money to play the game and invested a considerable amount of time in it. That gives me every right to discuss my views of it.

2. The game is incredibly overrated and its fanbase is excessively vocal, so a foil is needed to ensure that anyone on the fence has a clear view of the issue. Call it a social responsibility, if you will.

3. Notice that I generally only post in this thread. I do not go into other FFXII threads bitching about how much I hate the game, despite the threads being about other things.

Obviously, Revaninja, you don't get the point of this thread or discussion forums (on and offline) at all. Think about it, discussion isn't always about conversing on matters people like.

And others probably aren't posting because you've made their ignore list.

Maybe I think because of how new I am Z. I have only been apart of this forum for a day so try again on that one. Plus I have read the board you 2 are on a lot of peoples list so isn't that calling the kettele black my friend?

As for Prak I have defeated your points but I am offering you the chance to bring them up and discuss them like an adult. So Lets try again shall we since I have defeated your plot, Gameplay, and Liscenes points lets redo it so you get them.

The plot you quite frankly never experinced beyond what amounts to 30 minutes of it so I will ignore your version on it for lack of true evidence.

The Gameplay aspects such as gambit the fighting system and so forth. The gambits only shine until later in the game where they flesh out but it is true the can be a pain but it is all true properly managed they are assest. The fighting system and the open battlefield does take some getting use to but it for the most part is a players progetive on it. The other deals such as Lag time and so forth that can't be helped due to the Designers placing graphics over processing while it looks nice it can be a pain.

As for the licsene board we have gone over this so much that it is clear we shall always have a difference of opnion.

On those words I think I shall leave this thread I only meant to say my piece both the problems I had and the things I found good about this I got pulled into this when Prak posted off of my post. While I did respond badly to it I feel this is meant as an opnion thread not an attack people who have enjoyed the game thread and thats what it has turned into. So I say goodbye gentlemen and ladies I will keep an eye on this thread just to see what people have to say but because my words are being refused and not given their proper due that anyone on a board wants I shall leave.
And understand this Prak I have tried to find and answer your points I have up to my ability your refusal to repost them is what makes me leave with them unanswered.

Learn to spell, then more people will respond.
Until then you'll be marked as a noob.

For one I am Not a Noob two how do you know that english is my first langue? Spelling is not all that imporant it is the idea and flow behind it learn that and any langue becomes less a problem. Plus my Keyboard is screwy since I dropped it last night it doesn't type keys I have hit or types the key next to it and I have doubled check so I have to get a new keyboard.

These are english forums, learn how to properly communicate or get the fuck out. You are a noob for using a dropped keyboard as an excuse for your half-assed posts, and even if it is true, you're even more of a noob for dropping it and not getting a replacement within a day. Honestly, even thrift stores and pharmacies sell keyboards nowadays, how hard can it be?

Agree with z on every point. Get a new keyboard and learn how to type properly. Nobody here gives two cracks what country you're from --- you still need to type English properly.


Now, for some responses to Prak.


Prak, I think the reason a lot of people don't take you seriously on this is because you still haven't played more than a small portion of the game. I get the feeling this game has become sort-of-like another Final Fantasy VII to you --- but at least you finished FFVII, probably more than once --- you used to be a fan of it.


However, just to go over some of your original points again, from what I remember:

Quickenings - Pass - but only barely. Quickenings are only overpowered towards the beginning of the game. The further you get into the game, the more balanced and less overpowered they become.

Gambits - Pass - but only to some degree. Yes, there are some major problems with the Gambits system. But for the most part, it works well, and it allows you to have a nice, smoothly functioning team as never before in Final Fantasy.

License Board - Pass - yes, it's way too easy to LP-farm and quickly beef up your characters. You get no argument on this.

Story / Characters - Fail - bigtime. The adventure game vs. RPG argument is dismissed automatically because this is a Final Fantasy game. If you play Final Fantasy, you know you're not getting the type of game you're talking about. Now we've already discussed this, but the characters and the story themselves are both complex and well-developed.



Okay, now that the arguments have dealt with, let's move onto the merits:

- Moogles --- 'nuff said

- Graphical and sound enhancements

- Features designed to make things easier for the player not found in past FFs --- minimap with accessible detailed map at all times, detailed bestiary, Clan Primer, etc.

- Sidequests - Mark hunting adds difficulty and intrigue to the game, Gate crystals are major enhancements that completely revolutionizes how the game is played

- Depth of subcharacters / NPCs / guest characters

- Plot that isn't focused to a large degree on romance and main villain who isn't hellbent on destroying the world.

First of all I have Zero cash just moved and looking for a job that was the business I had to attend so on that issue forget it my keyboard works well enough that I don't have to make an issue of food or a keyboard. Next what I meant by the English is that you guys judge too harshly I see alot of people such as yourself Z with spelling errors do I call you a noob because of it no. While I am a native english speaker I have always been a poor speller which I said at the very begining now before you go off on that remeber this english is composed of every langue known to man it is the mutt langue its why so many people have trouble learning it add in the 50 or so accents and abrevation particular to a country or state and you have a diverse Langue that no one has a firm grasp on. Look at england and the USA very different speaking styles and GRAMMER and they once were the same people so Lay off if you feel the need to correct someones english fine but understand that you are in the minority and you could be correcting it wrong. Words not meant to argue but to explain the world.

As for agent you know it is the first time but I realize you are right on the end the world thing I never realized it till you wrote. And cosidering some of my problems with FFIX and FFVIII was the out there last boss the end world thing I am shocked at myself for not noticing it.

Show me my non-sarcastic spelling errors. Until then, keep telling yourself that you're smart and witty. By the way, growing up in a first generation Filipino-American household meant that I learned Tagalog first and then English from the public school system. You can just pretty much just go and rape yourself for being such a poor speller of your native language.

Keep in mind that it's people like you that are at fault for the mangled mess that is American English. You stupid cunts that use excuses, like speaking styles and/or grammar, to mask your complete inability to construct a decent thought with what little intelligence you have.

One your an A$$ two I have a problem spelling yes but that does not effect my intelligance at all. And it is not an excuse I own up to the fact I stink at spelling I just pointed out that there is more to life then your pea-sized cranium can handle. You want intelligance try just try to understand Temporal mechanics(Time in case you dont know your latin) the field I major in. You have to understand the princpal of the Chaos theory, Times flow and possible flow, and my favorites the otcomes of paradox just to get into the field. I suck at spelling that is self admited but to hold it as an example of my intelligance is stupid and wrong and one of the reasons why I don't like you. You constantly attack not a persons argument but rather the person themselves.

I have only one statement to you Z.Zetsumei look in the mirror you are human same as me. We are imperfect beings constantly striving for perfection that we shall never attain. And take that as you will.

I know I'm imperfect, but guess what, unlike you I'm willing and capable of correcting myself. Your inability to take your faults into consideration and correct them are what make me question your intelligence as a whole. An intelligent person would take criticism into account, look for the underlying reasons for such criticism, and would do his/her best to change for the better. You, on the other hand, have not done so and I will continue to label you as stupid until you attain such a state.

Good luck being successful in any field with that atrocious spelling and grammar of yours. Do you honestly think that anyone in any field will take what you have to say seriously if you come off as a complete airhead? If you're so smart "Mr. I-major-in-Temporal-Mechanics-therefore-I'm-smarter-than-you" then why don't you figure out a way to get some money to get and new keyboard on top of a little common sense?

One I am looking for a job so theirs your cash idea. Two when I write papers I use spell check it is such a wonderful tool you have no idea. I then double check make sure everything is correct then sleep then check it again. All that is to correct my errors in my papers so yes I do strive towards bettering myself unlike what you think. Third this is a FORUM not a board of electees reviewing my work for the year and deciding if I get more grants so I naturally don't put the same effort into spelling and spell checking I noramlly do with any of my written works it is all raw and as is which I feel holds the essence of what I am trying to say then if I go back and edit were I might destroy my main point. Also I am still in college so I am not quite yet at the part past assisant in my field but I am climbing the ranks.

Now getting back on topic which is the GAME and not myself, yourself or anyone truly. One thing I like about the game that No one has talked about is the different speaking styles(If you did and I didn't see it I am sorry) I feel they give the game a more broadend horizon and detail that would be lacking in a single speech style or a Text only. While FFX did cover some of this it didn't cover it as well as FFXII where you have a vast difference in speech patterns choice of words and yes even grammer =) from Dalmasicans(Sp?) to Archadians example Larsa and Vaan speak very differently from each other. So does anyone think that hurt the game or helped it? I know the Bhujerba accent is kind of weird at first at least to me it is but I think offers color. But seriously does anyone else have an opnion on the speech.

Yeah, I liked the different speaking styles too. I enjoyed the way that Fran talks. And yeah, many of the voices are in general a pleasure to listen to and do have some interesting differences.

One I am looking for a job so theirs your cash idea. Two when I write papers I use spell check it is such a wonderful tool you have no idea. I then double check make sure everything is correct then sleep then check it again. All that is to correct my errors in my papers so yes I do strive towards bettering myself unlike what you think. Third this is a FORUM not a board of electees reviewing my work for the year and deciding if I get more grants so I naturally don't put the same effort into spelling and spell checking I noramlly do with any of my written works it is all raw and as is which I feel holds the essence of what I am trying to say then if I go back and edit were I might destroy my main point. Also I am still in college so I am not quite yet at the part past assisant in my field but I am climbing the ranks.

Now getting back on topic which is the GAME and not myself, yourself or anyone truly. One thing I like about the game that No one has talked about is the different speaking styles(If you did and I didn't see it I am sorry) I feel they give the game a more broadend horizon and detail that would be lacking in a single speech style or a Text only. While FFX did cover some of this it didn't cover it as well as FFXII where you have a vast difference in speech patterns choice of words and yes even grammer from Dalmasicans(Sp?) to Archadians example Larsa and Vaan speak very differently from each other. So does anyone think that hurt the game or helped it? I know the Bhujerba accent is kind of weird at first at least to me it is but I think offers color. But seriously does anyone else have an opnion on the speech.

Spell check is for the weak. And if it's your goal to sound idiotic for the sake of the preservation of the essence of your statements, I won't stop you. But I won't take you seriously for the most part.
Yes, the different styles of speech were an interesting aspect in that it was one of the few attributes from past games that they actually improved upon rather than porting.

Too many new posts for me to reply to everything, so I won't bother trying.


As for Prak I have defeated your points but I am offering you the chance to bring them up and discuss them like an adult. So Lets try again shall we since I have defeated your plot, Gameplay, and Liscenes points lets redo it so you get them.

Oh yeah sure... You defeated me because you say so. Yeah, that's really good enough. [/sarcasm] Moron.


The plot you quite frankly never experinced beyond what amounts to 30 minutes of it so I will ignore your version on it for lack of true evidence.

Ho-hum. Covered this already.


The Gameplay aspects such as gambit the fighting system and so forth. The gambits only shine until later in the game where they flesh out but it is true the can be a pain but it is all true properly managed they are assest. The fighting system and the open battlefield does take some getting use to but it for the most part is a players progetive on it. The other deals such as Lag time and so forth that can't be helped due to the Designers placing graphics over processing while it looks nice it can be a pain.

What the hell are you trying to say here? It's like you're just rambling with no clear point.


As for the licsene board we have gone over this so much that it is clear we shall always have a difference of opnion.

No, I do not have an opinion on the matter, for opinions are merely egocentric distortions or denials of facts. They are beneath me. I deal in fact and fact alone.


On those words I think I shall leave this thread I only meant to say my piece both the problems I had and the things I found good about this I got pulled into this when Prak posted off of my post. While I did respond badly to it I feel this is meant as an opnion thread not an attack people who have enjoyed the game thread and thats what it has turned into. So I say goodbye gentlemen and ladies I will keep an eye on this thread just to see what people have to say but because my words are being refused and not given their proper due that anyone on a board wants I shall leave.
And understand this Prak I have tried to find and answer your points I have up to my ability your refusal to repost them is what makes me leave with them unanswered.

Read the title of the thread. This isn't a spooge on the game and post minor little quibbles to make it look like you aren't a total cuntish fanboy thread. It is for true criticism, and conversely, it can be used for counter-arguments to that criticism. You have failed in the latter capacity, and thus wasted everyone's time.


Prak, I think the reason a lot of people don't take you seriously on this is because you still haven't played more than a small portion of the game. I get the feeling this game has become sort-of-like another Final Fantasy VII to you --- but at least you finished FFVII, probably more than once --- you used to be a fan of it.

I've played dozens of games that didn't last as long, start to finish, as I spent playing FFXII. As I said before, a game has no excuse for failing to entertain me by that point. No matter how it is beyond that point, I am not going to continue investing time in it when there's always a risk that my complaints may grow even more severe.

Actually, I only finished FFVII once, and I was very sick of it by the end. Sure I liked it for a while--I started playing it around the time I joined FFS actually, so you may find a few pro-FFVII posts of mine from that period--but once I realized that it was completely shallow (around the start of disc 3) and not likely to develop any depth, I only pushed forward to the end out of pure stubbornness and boredom. These days, I have far too much to do to finish a game that can't make me care about it.


Quickenings - Pass - but only barely. Quickenings are only overpowered towards the beginning of the game. The further you get into the game, the more balanced and less overpowered they become.

That's rather strange since I've heard from other people who've finished it that quickenings can turn the entire game into easysauce.


Gambits - Pass - but only to some degree. Yes, there are some major problems with the Gambits system. But for the most part, it works well, and it allows you to have a nice, smoothly functioning team as never before in Final Fantasy.

And why should I care how well it works when it doesn't work as well as it should have, according to the rules of common sense?


Story / Characters - Fail - bigtime. The adventure game vs. RPG argument is dismissed automatically because this is a Final Fantasy game. If you play Final Fantasy, you know you're not getting the type of game you're talking about. Now we've already discussed this, but the characters and the story themselves are both complex and well-developed.

The adventure/RPG thing is just my own personal quest. I always make a note of it to draw attention to the matter. You ought to know that by now. =/

As for the story and characters, they're nothing that I can't find in a reasonably well-constructed D&D game or a rather generic novel. And frankly, that doesn't cut it for me when the series has managed to do things that genuinely surprised me in the past.


- Moogles --- 'nuff said

Agreeing with that, at least. Much love for the moogles.


- Sidequests - Mark hunting adds difficulty and intrigue to the game, Gate crystals are major enhancements that completely revolutionizes how the game is played

Mark hunting is nothing more than the same thing Square has been doing since they put the Emerald and Ruby weapons in FFVII. To get significant rewards from it, you have to fight monsters with absurdly high HP in battles that are more of a test of endurance than any sort of skill. And how the hell does it add intrigue? I detect a dire misuse of the word, but I won't call you on it if you don't want to answer that.

Gate crystals are merely an intelligent design choice. Other games (including FFX and X-2, to some extent) have been doing similar things for years, so it's more of a matter of common sense than innovation. Nothing revolutionary there.


- Depth of subcharacters / NPCs / guest characters

Can't really speak too much on this issue, but motivations seem kind of sketchy. At the point I've reached (since I haven't finished, I can't argue this point, but I do ask that you give it due and fair consideration), I can't see any good reasons for the characters to be sticking together and not going their separate ways. I can't see a reason for Basch to remain totally loyal and steadfast despite everything he's been through. I can't see a reason for Vaan and Penelo (especially Penelo) to stick with the others. Maybe I look for a higher standard than most people, but motives mean a lot to me and I absolutely cannot connect to characters who don't show a hint of having a reason for their actions.


- Plot that isn't focused to a large degree on romance and main villain who isn't hellbent on destroying the world.

Neither of those are pros in any way except to your personal preferences.

Quote:
Quickenings - Pass - but only barely. Quickenings are only overpowered towards the beginning of the game. The further you get into the game, the more balanced and less overpowered they become.

That's rather strange since I've heard from other people who've finished it that quickenings can turn the entire game into easysauce.


I have to agree about the quickenings here. I was surprised to see people boasting about how easy it was to dispose of bosses and marks with the use of quickenings. For me, they never grew to a level where I could decimate marks with one good chain. They certainly helped, but only if I managed to pummel the creature to at least half strength, and then used a quickening chain or two. For me, quickenings were really only overpowering with the early bosses, early marks and if you happened to run into an angry elemental.

I know everyone's pointed this out, but the whole mp -> quickenings configuration was a step backwards for FF.

TActually, I only finished FFVII once, and I was very sick of it by the end. Sure I liked it for a while--I started playing it around the time I joined FFS actually, so you may find a few pro-FFVII posts of mine from that period--but once I realized that it was completely shallow (around the start of disc 3) and not likely to develop any depth, I only pushed forward to the end out of pure stubbornness and boredom. These days, I have far too much to do to finish a game that can't make me care about it.
Fair enough. I'm not sure if that helps or hurts you then in terms of future arguments with anyone that you only played it once, but I suppose that's really besides the point.



That's rather strange since I've heard from other people who've finished it that quickenings can turn the entire game into easysauce.
Yeah, sorry, you got sold a bill of goods by people who don't know what they're talking about, or haven't played through the entire game like you. (Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.)


And why should I care how well it works when it doesn't work as well as it should have, according to the rules of common sense?
I have no good answer for that.


The adventure/RPG thing is just my own personal quest. I always make a note of it to draw attention to the matter. You ought to know that by now. =/
Mmm, I don't really pay much attention to most of the other threads where you talk about it.


As for the story and characters, they're nothing that I can't find in a reasonably well-constructed D&D game or a rather generic novel. And frankly, that doesn't cut it for me when the series has managed to do things that genuinely surprised me in the past.
Oh, there were plenty of things in this game that genuinely surprised me.


Mark hunting is nothing more than the same thing Square has been doing since they put the Emerald and Ruby weapons in FFVII. To get significant rewards from it, you have to fight monsters with absurdly high HP in battles that are more of a test of endurance than any sort of skill. And how the hell does it add intrigue? I detect a dire misuse of the word, but I won't call you on it if you don't want to answer that.
Bzzt --- wrong. You keep going back to this "absurdly high HP" thing, but it's not true, at least for the most part. I think you're hung up on what you heard about the mark with 10,000,000 HP. Most of them are a lot more reasonable.

And as for the intrigue --- it comes later, in relation to specific Marks. Believe me, there is no misuse of the word.



Gate crystals are merely an intelligent design choice. Other games (including FFX and X-2, to some extent) have been doing similar things for years, so it's more of a matter of common sense than innovation. Nothing revolutionary there.
FFX really didn't do it at all, and you know it. If Gate Crystals had been implemented in FFX, it could have had the potential to become a game that was about as twice as good as it was. One of the chief complaints many people had against FFX was its painful linearity. FFX-2 --- nearly as good as XII in this respect, because you gain access to the Celsius nearly right away and travel just about anywhere in the world at any time. FFXII also gives you an airship --- The Strahl, although I'm not sure if you're interested in me explaining the particular aspects of that.




Can't really speak too much on this issue, but motivations seem kind of sketchy. At the point I've reached (since I haven't finished, I can't argue this point, but I do ask that you give it due and fair consideration), I can't see any good reasons for the characters to be sticking together and not going their separate ways. I can't see a reason for Basch to remain totally loyal and steadfast despite everything he's been through.
Well, Basch is fighting to maintain his honor. Without getting into too much detail, Basch feels that he failed Dalmasca and he wants to protect it now. I'm not sure if you picked up on this, but you do know that the guy you were fighting with at the beginning was not Basch?



I can't see a reason for Vaan and Penelo (especially Penelo) to stick with the others. Maybe I look for a higher standard than most people, but motives mean a lot to me and I absolutely cannot connect to characters who don't show a hint of having a reason for their actions.
Vaan lives for the adventure --- I thought that was pretty evident. He wants to be a sky-pirate --- he craves "adventure, and excitement, and really wild things." And it's fairly obvious that sticking with them will bring that. As for Penelo --- she dotes on Vaan and also looks to protect him, keep him in line. Obviously, where he goes, she goes.


Neither of those are pros in any way except to your personal preferences.
Okay, but perhaps you might agree at least that it's not the same-old, same-old, and that's a step in the right direction?

Yeah, sorry, you got sold a bill of goods by people who don't know what they're talking about, or haven't played through the entire game like you. (Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.)

No harm, no foul. But again, this hits on a major gripe. If the game is going to be challenging, why not present a challenge from the start? I have no interest in sitting through dozens of hours of uninteresting gameplay just to get to something that makes me do more than idly press a couple buttons and yawn while stuff just dies with minimal help from me. Consistency, my friend, is a plus, but it is sadly lacking in FFXII.


Oh, there were plenty of things in this game that genuinely surprised me.

You don't need to worry about spoiling things for me. Any excitement I might have had about the game is long dead, so try to point out something that you think might come as a shock to me. Mark spoilers accordingly if you're worried about other people.


Bzzt --- wrong. You keep going back to this "absurdly high HP" thing, but it's not true, at least for the most part. I think you're hung up on what you heard about the mark with 10,000,000 HP. Most of them are a lot more reasonable.

And as for the intrigue --- it comes later, in relation to specific Marks. Believe me, there is no misuse of the word.

Please feel free to cite examples. I have no problem with reading spoilers.


FFX really didn't do it at all, and you know it. If Gate Crystals had been implemented in FFX, it could have had the potential to become a game that was about as twice as good as it was. One of the chief complaints many people had against FFX was its painful linearity. FFX-2 --- nearly as good as XII in this respect, because you gain access to the Celsius nearly right away and travel just about anywhere in the world at any time. FFXII also gives you an airship --- The Strahl, although I'm not sure if you're interested in me explaining the particular aspects of that.

I clearly specified "to some extent" when I mentioned FFX and FFX-2. I did not say that they were on the same level, just that it was done. And you CANNOT deny that FFX did do it, even if it was late enough in the game that it made little difference. Unless, of course, we're not on the same wavelength here and we're actually holding two different conversations, which I rather doubt.


Well, Basch is fighting to maintain his honor. Without getting into too much detail, Basch feels that he failed Dalmasca and he wants to protect it now. I'm not sure if you picked up on this, but you do know that the guy you were fighting with at the beginning was not Basch?

Yeah, I got all that figured out the first (and only, I think) time I saw Gabranth without his helmet.


Vaan lives for the adventure --- I thought that was pretty evident. He wants to be a sky-pirate --- he craves "adventure, and excitement, and really wild things." And it's fairly obvious that sticking with them will bring that. As for Penelo --- she dotes on Vaan and also looks to protect him, keep him in line. Obviously, where he goes, she goes.

The way I see it, it's fairly obvious that Vaan is the requisite tag-along that provides the other characters with a convenient excuse to give exposition about the places and people they already know about, but would otherwise go without mentioning.

I got the impression that Vaan didn't like putting Penelo in danger. If she was going to tag along and put herself at risk just to stay with him, why didn't he stay behind? The answer is clearly that the story needed him to be with the characters who know more so that the player can be informed without the need for storybook narration or characters talking to the wall. Of course, there could have been other ways to do it, but heaven forbid I should expect Square to take the high road these days.


Okay, but perhaps you might agree at least that it's not the same-old, same-old, and that's a step in the right direction?

No, I don't agree. A good writer can take a stock concept and craft an entertaining story. As I've said before, they went for a more western style that turned out to be more bland in comparison, even if it was something new for them. It's the same kind of storytelling you can find in games with more powerful interactive elements, so why even bother with FFXII when I can pull out Baldur's Gate 2 or Neverwinter Nights to get comparable storytelling with better gameplay?

First off I'd like to say, Reva, you're an idiot. You try to argue back and forth with Prak, all the while ego-boosting yourself and rationalizing all of your points to make it seem like you have somehow made a valid argument in most areas.Seriously though, it's not hard at all to type, and there's no reason at all that you should not be able to spell simple words, remember, not hard to spell, and Kettle? Come on. And Prak I agree with you about the story and character development, I felt that the characters were underdevoloped and even after 100 hours of gameplay I personally do not feel a strong connection to any one of them. That's a major problem in an RPG styled game. Especially considering most of the other Final Fantasy titles I have played, and that's a large number of them, do have in my opinion at the very least have a strong character development for the main character.

I'd go insane if I played one of SquareEnix's games for over 100 hours on a single run-through, that's probably what happened to you when you realized how much time you spent on it.

I didn't go insane, as far as I know, but I know people that have taken longer than that, with all the hunts and espers and what have you. But I really really liked the game don't get me wrong. I just think if you're going to make a game that lasts for upwards of 100 hours that you should after all that time feel a connection with the characters in the game.

True, I didn't bother with all the hunts and what not. I just perused some other forums to find out which ones were the hardest and skipped as many of the nonsense ones as possible.

Having hunts with an absurd amount of hp does sound like an endurance test.
But is there really a solution to this problem (I don't think anyone on this thread has posted an alternate solution, only just how much they disliked it)?

Keep in mind the audience that FFXII has to cater to. If people had trouble figuring out that the Gigas Gate implied Belias, then they would have even more difficulty figuring puzzles leading to hunts. Having high hp hunts is the easiest for both the developers and the gamers. If the gamer can't defeat the hunt, then that means that he/she has to level. It's a simple concept for the majority of gamers. But if a trick is added that destroys this concept then many gamers might be turned off from the fact that they can't figure out how to defeat the hunt. Maybe having high hp hunts is just an easy way to please the masses.

Plus, this is mostly an rpg game and how much skill can a player get out of it? Quickenings rely a lot on luck and gambits mean that the player doesn't have to worry about inputing commands. The only part that's left for the player is a tiny piece of strategy when fighting foes, but even this can be avoided by referencing a strategy guide or walkthrough.

I don't even play final fantasy for its plot, just for its awesome graphics and music. If I wanted plot, I would pick a book, and for skill I would play something else. Either I demand too little of games or I just haven't played any great ones so far.

First I care not what you think of me so lets get back to the game shall we?

The High HP hunts I can only think of 3 no 4 and one isn't a hunt or a part of one. The first is Behemoth King and that I say is more to do to the fact he switches his defense from Pailings to Magic shield and you have to flip your gambits to match so that is why he takes time, the second is Hellwyrm which I haven't fought yet but I have read about so I can't say anything there, the Same with Yizmat, and finally Omega who I accidently found while searching for Ultima and got handed my head so not much to say there excepet that he is not a mark. While these monsters are Large in HP by the time you get to them you will have a working Hunt stragety such as Sleep them Magic them to death or some such the High HP I think is to give the player a really challange at the point you fight them but I haven't fought and defeated 3 of those 4 so I can't say beyond the fact the Behemoth King was a pain.

As for the 100 hour part in truth you don't have to get that much while I don't know what the speed time is I think it is 20 to 30 hours is the Min on it but I am not sure. It is the very addicting Hunt quest at least for me that racked up the Hours. That and a few problems with the Hunt such as Marlith and the Enkelados. Enkelados I thought the Garif would be by the shred I didn't read throughly the petioners speech and Marlith I literaly went all over the caverns looking for it tell I finally went to gamefaq for the Answer. So that much time can happen I mean I am at 97 hours right now and will probably when I get as close to 100% as I can be at 112-120 or so because I have Omega, Hellwyrm, and yizmat still to do

As for skill each their own I guess but you do need stragety for a lot of the marks such as Gilgamesh, Trickster, Always love-able carrot, and probably your first elite mark Gil Snapper who is a big change from the basic Marks in Power nearly died so many times because I was underleveled when I took it on same with Gilgamesh. And if you are Underleveled you NEED a stragety big time or you will die fast and hard.

As for the Gigas Gate I don't personally know why people had so much trouble but I read the Espers stories when I get them and the merging of Man and Beast like that stuck out to me espically since a Gigas is a Giant of extreme power in most myths so the FFXII version of Gigas stayed in my mind. Plus Velius I belive is how you spell it who shared the same design as Belias and the same Zodiac symbol Aeris was my favorite Boss in FFT because of the corruption of Wiegrief he represented.If you haven't played FFT it has alot of the Background story of Ivalice like Saint Ajora and others and it introduced most of the Espers as Boss monsters connected to the Stones of the Zodiac, like the ones you collect in FFXII as loot, which were a type of Demon known as Lucavi(Sp?) using the stones and Human Hosts to further their own plans. So as a Veteren of most FFs I got a Kick out of some of the subtle connections to FFT you can find.

I'm quite surprised at the amount of arguing in here already, and personal comments!

I know a lot about 12 already, and even though I haven't played the game, I do know I won't have too much to moan about when I get to play it - I think the only main gripe so far I have with this is that so many of my favourite characters have died, and they ruined the design of Tiamat.

But I suppose with all the war going on and the lust for power, I suppose a lotta people are going to die.

Prak lost this debate the moment he tried to denegrate and insult people when they made valids comments that were not fitting his narrow vision. It seems Prak can only attack people when they do not agree with him. If you don't agree with him, like Reva does, then you're stupid and ignorant.

Prak, you should know by now that when you raise your fist, you admit that you're mentally defeated. I wanted to point it out so you'd know how it looks like to us when we read your insult filled posts.

Oh look. I've annoyed Hynad so much that he now has to revive threads just to attack me. I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

Maybe it's just the altruism in me that wants to educate you so you can learn respect and civism. After all, this forum is like a small community. Being so, we all have to do our parts to make it better. When will you start doing yours?

Civism is another word for citizenship. The word you're looking for would probably be civility.

Now, regarding your thoughts on our parts in the community, I don't buy into that garbage. If everyone plays nice and holds back their more extreme views for fear of offending someone, then we all wind up being nothing more than a bunch of drones doing nothing but mumbling things we don't mean to people who don't care.

My role is this community is to be an abrasive voice of truth and reason. I fill it well, and fully intend to stick with it.

Oh I see, so you think respecting people will obviously make you look like a drone...

And sorry to 'pop' your ego, but your truth and reason is in no way absolute. Any grown and educated person knows this. Telling a polite newcomer he's worthless has nothing to do with reason or truth. You're just an irritable person with not much respect and comprehension for anything that is not coming from him and his self-righteous ego.

I really wonder how you can come up with something as wrong as your last post and have the guts to post it here. I'm all for individual identity, but to try and give reasons why it's a good thing to disrespect people? Seriously, there are some issues you need to work on.

What the fuck have you been reading? I didn't tell any new member they were worthless (not recently, at least).

You wanna know why it's a good reason to disrespect people? It's because some people are just plain idiotic and need a dose of common sense. Then there's the fact that if they don't listen to my high-handed common sense, I may be able to drive them off. Yes, I try to drive retards off. I want to be rid of them. That's why I disrespect people. You want respect from me? You fucking earn it.

As entertaining as this is, I'm sure you'll understand why I'm closing this, right, Prak?

Hynad --- you have as much chance of winning against Prak as pigs do of flying. Prak --- you're pretty much completely right, but well, I'm sure you know as well I do that this debate probably is gonna go nowhere fast.