People, WAY TOO MUCH METAL GEAR SPOILERS. I'm not going to answer to anything of this... So I'm out of this discussion until I play the rest of the MGS games that rest for me to play.

Um i still find that the whining of hope is annoying and he is being too much of a crybaby.
I don't care what you say,i think he's acting oto melodramatic and like a child.


Even if you have a story that is supposed to be sad,if you don't give a shit about the character,and the game tries to force you to care,it ends up being melodramatic because its trying to force you by shoving dramatic cutscenes down your throat.

I felt this way with both raiden and hope and cloud.

Cloud barely cried or whined in the game.


like a child.Surprise!

Cloud barely cried or whined in the game.

Surprise!

When i was 14,i didn't cry as much as he did.

The game is still trying to make you care the same way they tried by concentrating on naomi in mgs4,and what did it do? it made me think:man,i wish this character was likeable,then i would give a shit.

When i was 14,i didn't cry as much as he did.That's because you didn't become the target of a holocaust, see your mother get killed, and become a pariah within like 3 hours of your life.

And i still think you are trying to justify it too much.

critics of Hope couldn't have lasted 5 minutes if they had been in his shoes.

They would have run off into a corner and refused to come out.

Reality justifies Hope's conduct.No one else has to.

The problem in the game isn't Hope.The problem is that overall it's a poorly structured final fantasy.

And i still think you are far too nice to the game.

I don't like most of the characters for most part,and i don't care about their backstory either.

Its interesting since i cared about locke terra edgar sabim gau cyan in ff6 and cecil kain rosa cid in ff4 and even golbez or:golbeza in japanese version.

Am example of things that make you care about characters:Dragon age origins:Morrigan is a bitch so i feel both hatred for her and i like her at the same time.
I hate her because she is such a pessimist and she is just plain mean,but its also what i love about her because when you combine someone like her with a character like alistair or wynna,you get really funny moments.

Personality wise:hope spends most of his time crying and wimpering,he doesn't do much and also:I feel the story is a bit too slowly paced with a bit too much filler.
The game seemed pretty boring for me in both the cutscenes and the gameplay.I gave a shit in metal gear solid 2 when i saw a cutscene,becausee it was interesting in the point.I won't go into it because i don't want to spoil it but it was very well done.Final fantasy company square enix has some good ideas,but i find they use it in the wrong way.There are many things i would change to make this game more fun,for instance:

1:I would take off the level cap thingy so i could grind till i'm strong enough to face stuff.
2:I would take off the instant heal up and give you a mana bar and allow statuses to pass stay after battles,so you think about what is going on more strategically and prepare for areas rather than just rush through as fast as possible.
3:I would put in towns and shops and maybe add a lot of places to explore.
4:I would lessen the cutscenes and make more towards little hints on people's backstory with cutscenes there when you go to certain places to learn about them,rather than bombarded with cutscene after cutscene.This game isn't a game at all,its an interactive movie.
5:I would add more sidequests during the whole game.(maybe i should try FFXII just out of curiosity hmm.)

These things would surely game the game more bearable

Anyways:This is my opinion respect it angry wolf/mercenary raven,you don't like it:Well tough.

Am example of things that make you care about characters:Dragon age origins:Morrigan is a bitch so i feel both hatred for her and i like her at the same time.
I hate her because she is such a pessimist and she is just plain mean,but its also what i love about her because when you combine someone like her with a character like alistair or wynna,you get really funny moments.

Only going to comment on this part of your post Nostalgia gamer. Morrigan isn't a pessimist, she just has a different outlook on things than the rest of the party. She values power more than anything else, Hell... even when you're romancing her, she makes it clear that she isn't interested in any emotional attachment to the Warden. The only other character which comes to my mind which is similar to her, is Raistlin Majere from the Dragonlance novellas. Not inherently evil, but not above using anyone/anything to get ahead in their own agenda. I admit, having her in your party, no matter who else you have with you, always brings on the grins due to her comments and banter with the others. In Witch Hunt, you ultimately see more of her... compassionate side (she admits herself she's a selfish lover, wanting the Warden all to herself).

Regarding the rest of your post... I agree with some things which I've raised myself earlier in this thread, or were referred to in that review I've provided links to in my posts here.

Only going to comment on this part of your post Nostalgia gamer. Morrigan isn't a pessimist, she just has a different outlook on things than the rest of the party. She values power more than anything else, Hell... even when you're romancing her, she makes it clear that she isn't interested in any emotional attachment to the Warden. The only other character which comes to my mind which is similar to her, is Raistlin Majere from the Dragonlance novellas. Not inherently evil, but not above using anyone/anything to get ahead in their own agenda. I admit, having her in your party, no matter who else you have with you, always brings on the grins due to her comments and banter with the others. In Witch Hunt, you ultimately see more of her... compassionate side (she admits herself she's a selfish lover, wanting the Warden all to herself).

Regarding the rest of your post... I agree with some things which I've raised myself earlier in this thread, or were referred to in that review I've provided links to in my posts here.

I was earlier talking about character development because i was judging this game and ever since ff7,i have lost interest in most of the characters in the newer games.

Anyways,back to FFXIII:

I was talking to my mother about character development since she reads more than i,and she agreed with me that if you don't like the character,its a sign of bad storytelling.

First you have to make the player care about the character in some way or another.

I was also thinking about this since the donald e westlake books have stories that are well written and the characters are well defined and you like the character for what he is or at least:interested in that character.

When i was playing FF7 for an example,the character that i was most interested in in the villains area,was in fact:Hojo and shinra and rufus.I think the reason for this,was because he was clearly evil and not insane and knew the consecuences of his actions and chose to do it for his own selfish reasons.Even if hojo was insane,he was clearly messed up before inserting that jenova cell into him.

The relations to what i said earlier to this part:
In FFXIII,i got this feeling that the villain was your typical run of the mill villain i've seen a thousand times.When i saw him,i immediately thought of comic book villains who are clich� to the max in dialogue and you can literally predict what is going to happen word for word.

In fact,in FFXIII,there were no surprises for me at all,i pretty much predicted everything in the game and not interested at all.If a character is forgettable and not much defined,then its a clear sign of bad writing.

I don't find any of the characters memorable and i forget their name,so it left no impression on me and nor did the story.I think if i had remembered the story,then it would have been a clear sign of the story being so amazing,that this conversation may have never happened.

Another example:In suikoden 2,i actually liked the characters and remembered the story really well because it left an impression on my mind that i ended up playing it over and over and remember the story well,but FFXIII is not one of those games.I think whatever square had is lost and i really don't know if they will get it back.

And i still think you are far too nice to the game.

I don't like most of the characters for most part,and i don't care about their backstory either.

Its interesting since i cared about locke terra edgar sabim gau cyan in ff6 and cecil kain rosa cid in ff4 and even golbez or:golbeza in japanese version.

Am example of things that make you care about characters:Dragon age origins:Morrigan is a bitch so i feel both hatred for her and i like her at the same time.
I hate her because she is such a pessimist and she is just plain mean,but its also what i love about her because when you combine someone like her with a character like alistair or wynna,you get really funny moments.

Personality wise:hope spends most of his time crying and wimpering,he doesn't do much and also:I feel the story is a bit too slowly paced with a bit too much filler.
The game seemed pretty boring for me in both the cutscenes and the gameplay.I gave a shit in metal gear solid 2 when i saw a cutscene,becausee it was interesting in the point.I won't go into it because i don't want to spoil it but it was very well done.Final fantasy company square enix has some good ideas,but i find they use it in the wrong way.There are many things i would change to make this game more fun,for instance:

1:I would take off the level cap thingy so i could grind till i'm strong enough to face stuff.
2:I would take off the instant heal up and give you a mana bar and allow statuses to pass stay after battles,so you think about what is going on more strategically and prepare for areas rather than just rush through as fast as possible.
3:I would put in towns and shops and maybe add a lot of places to explore.
4:I would lessen the cutscenes and make more towards little hints on people's backstory with cutscenes there when you go to certain places to learn about them,rather than bombarded with cutscene after cutscene.This game isn't a game at all,its an interactive movie.
5:I would add more sidequests during the whole game.(maybe i should try FFXII just out of curiosity hmm.)

These things would surely game the game more bearable

Anyways:This is my opinion respect it angry wolf/mercenary raven,you don't like it:Well tough.

Heck I agree with you about the pacing of the game and the fact the game developers didn't find a way to make the characters more likeable without making them overtly emotional.I feel they overcompensated for FFXII where the characters came across as emotionless.
However, I relate to what Hope has gone through for personal reasons.How many of us could have survived in europe for exa mple during WW1 or 2 and seen our parents killed and friends killed before our eyes.So you're way too critical of Hope imo.

As far as your opinion goes you are entitled to have one and I respect that.I try to respect opposing views even when I disagree with them.

shrugs.

Supposedly FFXIII-2 will address at least some of the criticisms of FFXIII such as a lack of towns and a lack of exploration.
So obviously Square was listening.

However, I relate to what Hope has gone through for personal reasons.How many of us could have survived in europe for exa mple during WW1 or 2 and seen our parents killed and friends killed before our eyes.So you're way too critical of Hope imo.

I don't think so,first:You have to care about the character and then it makes for an interesting story.
If you got a story with uninteresting character going through uninteresting moments,you got for a lackbuster character development.I don't think they were particularly well written,because i'm not the only person who finds the characters rather shallow and uninteresting..

shrugs.

Supposedly FFXIII-2 will address at least some of the criticisms of FFXIII such as a lack of towns and a lack of exploration.
So obviously Square was listening.


Maybe,or they may end up with no story and character development and all gameplay.

I never played FFXII so i can't really speak for everyone,but i heard some complaints about the real time gameplay and the story and the characters.

Some people seem to dislike penelope and vaan from what i heard,but i haven't heard a whole lot about it.

Totally, everyone should have gone into FF13 with extremely low expectations, you know with Square's reputation for making quality RPGs and the fact that it was like 8 years or whatever in the making. Yeah. Not expecting good things at all yo.

I agreed got this thing with high expectations now.......

i'm not going to write a report but... the story is ok, but is not like i'm going to finish it again.

Sazh Katzroy is a great character! indeed.

But the rest of the crew just helps me get depressed

That's partly true. I was playing Atelier Iris 3 and I hated everyone in that game. Made the game so hard to go through. HOWEVER there will be people that loves some of the characters that some people just loath. You for example hate Hope because of his whining. I on the other hand LOVE Hope. He's super adorable.

It all comes down to opinion really. You say they lost their magic. I say it's still there. Neither of us is wrong. It's just that Square catered to my side of the audience this time.

But I have to admit. The non-main characters kinda just came-and-went, with no mentions after that. Really bizarre writing.

PS Sometimes characters can be 'saved' from hatedom with good writing. The most recent example would be Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory. Very non-sequitur I know, but it's the best example I can think of right now. Season 1 I couldn't stand him. When he got on I groaned. Then Season 2 onward I came to like him. Eventually he's my favourite among the whole cast.

this video says it all [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeDQM_0DS34"] .....this game doesnt deserve any appreciation....an whats this a partt 2...please please please let the next funal fantasy be a turned based rpg ....i miss final fantasy :seriously: the real final fantasy .. i grew up on final fantasy and any 1 who knows these games like i do knows this game doesnt deserve to have a second....let 8 or 9 shine a second time an let it be old school turn based... i hope 13 versus shows us that square still got it....closest thing i got wth new age rpgs that are a little old school is lost odyssey "wich kiicked A**" ....u kno what
I woldnt mind seeing a chrono cross remake or a second part of that...but not 13 dont keep 13 going..its an evil number..an the game is evil

At first I used to get all riled up and post defensive comments about the game. Now I just learned to just tune everything out, believe it's all just a vocal minority going apesh*t about the game and just enjoy the sequel when it comes out and let statistics back up how great the game was.

It's not just a 'vocal minority going apesh*t' about it... there are genuine flaws with the game that only the most blinded or fanatical in thinking that SE does no wrong who think it's great. Statistics wise, I proved earlier in this thread in comparing FFXIII to SWKOTOR, that the latter had far more awards and success than FFXII has so far.

But what do awards count for? Nothing at all, if the bashing of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion is anything to go by. Game of the Year when it came out, critics gushing endlessly, groaning stacks of critical awards, and yet they now all trash it utterly, deny ever really liking it, and that it took until SKyrim came out for them to really 'get' Elder Scrolls...

As for Final Fantasy 13, it is a simple East/West split at the moment. People who insist the game is a failure and has been poorly received are ignoring the fact that the game was massively popular in the East, and is considered one of the best entries of the series over there. The game doesn't suit the current climate in the West (for critics or fans), but neither do any other JRPGs. There are a few holdouts here in the West who still like JRPGs (like me), but we're an endangered species.

The game does have its flaws and it isn't an example of the series at its best, but I still think the current climate is preventing it from getting a fair hearing over here. For me, it occupies a middle ground of quality, being neither truly great nor terrible. But neither side of this debate is willing to budge, so the West has dismissed it as trash, whilst the East are placing it on a pedestal and worshipping it.

When a game genre is not 'in vogue', then it becomes so much harder to make any kind of mark. The brand name of Final Fantasy helps to get noticed, but equally incurs the wrath of people who normally would let such a game go by without comment - no other JRPGs do nearly as well as Final Fantasy over here, but no others ever get singled out for hate either. The high profile of the franchise forces people who don't like this genre to voice an opinion on it - and its obvious what that opinion will be.

But still, you can't let Final Fantasy 13 off the hook in any way. As jaded as I am, I still like to think that a truly quality game will win over even the toughest of crowds. And this was not that game, and I think as Revan said, you would have be in some pretty serious denial to call Final Fantasy 13 a great game. It didn't win hearts and minds because frankly it didn't deserve to. I don't think it deserves all the hate either (because I think its a good game), but this was never going to be a game that would change people minds on the series, or win over new fans. It just isn't good enough for that, in the way that a KOTOR or a Mass Effect were.

I hope I dont hate this game as much as others.

I might not, but we'll see in a few days when I get it.

The battle system is fun only when you get to the point where the game gets so hard that you can't win just by spamming auto-abilities. If you can have the patience to get to that point of the game while having really OK expectations for everything else, you'll do fine. :D

Not when you have to start farming countless platinum ingots,then it becomes boring.

I don't even want to see another of those ugly adamantoise for a while.

If you can't beat the game with-out using auto your doing something wrong.

Be fair - the game is pretty hard at times. I read an interview just last week in which the developers admitted that they felt they'd made some of the bosses far too hard. Apparently, they've received a lot of complaints over the Barthandelous, Cid Raines and Orphan boss fights, because a lot of people just can't beat them. And I can sympathise with that, because even though I consider myself pretty good at RPGs, I had a hell of a tough time trying to beat Cid.

I will admit that I did using a video guide from youtube on Cid Raines but he and the Mecha-Bulbasaur were the only bosses that gave me trouble. I made a save file trying a different strategy on how to beat him it took 2 mins longer but it worked.

Barthandelus Mk 2 was actually the worst boss fight in the game for me, I'd get halfway and he'd kill me. I barely ever have to grind for RPGs but I just did a shitload of sidequests to get ready for him v_v


And this was not that game, and I think as Revan said, you would have be in some pretty serious denial to call Final Fantasy 13 a great game.Denial? Someone is in "denial" because they have a differing opinion to you? I give a fairer review to people who are asking about it (in other words, what the critics say, though I don't say it mockingly) but I thought it was a "great" game myself.

Is it wrong to have conviction in the things you say? If you believe something different to me, then make your case. Complaining that I shouldn't be allowed to say this that or the other gets us nowhere. Looking at FF13, I do not see some creative marvel, something that makes your jaw drop open with how stunning it is. It would be more accurate to say that I feel general satisfaction. So I feel secure in saying that this is not the game changer that puts the series' finger back on the pulse of modern gaming. If others don't agree, then they are in luck - this is a FF forum, a place for the airing of such views. They are in the right place to make their opinions known.

If you actually knew as much about my opinion of the game as you seem to think, you'd know I consider FF13 a very good game. I don't consider it a Great game, but then I consider very, very few games to be truly Great. Most games are vastly overscored, and the word great is thrown around too easily. And I'm guilty of this too - I thought FF13 was a very fine experience but not earth shatteringly, life changingly brilliant like I found FF7 for example. But I'm sure I've described Ff13 as great myself from time to time.

But that's just a figure of speech. What I was driving at was that I don't consider this to be a 'Great' game - as in one of the true classics of the series, a game changer that reignited people's love for the series en masse. It was 'just' another really good FF game. And for me, that isn't enough at this moment. The series needs more than that, because IMO its coasting on its name alone at this point. The series has such a pedigree that 'Very Good' is actually pretty poor by the high standards we expect.

When a series delivers a truly classic installment that gets people flocking back and staying back (i.e not buying it for nostalgia and trading it in a day or so later), it injects energy and enthusiasm to the developers. It builds up momentum that inspires people to keep improving, keep trying to go one better than perfection. For me, Square don't have this at the moment.

When I say these things, I am telling it like I see it. Nobody has the time to put IMO after every single thing they say. I'm perfectly happy for you to consider FF13 a great game - and I said as much to Johnny Mercyside on his review thread the other day. But people are allowed to have strong opinions and believe in what they say. The idea that we should always be tip-toeing around each other, qualifying everything we say with IMO every time we say anything, just isn't me. And I don't see a problem with that - but if I was saying something like 'Unlike Mercenary Raven who is in complete denial... etc etc' then that would obviously be out of line, and unprevoked.

My statement is simply a warts and all expression of my feelings on the matter. But its still just my opinion, as anyone will realise. Its not automatically true just because I said it, neither is it automatically wrong. It can be read as a challenge, a 'Prove me Wrong' statement, and I have no problem with it being read that way. This is a forum, a place for debate after all.

Anyway, that's what I have to say about that. If you're not satisfied, then there's not much I can do about it except to apologise if you really did take offence. Its my style to tell it like I see it, and sometimes that leads to declarations like the above. But I see nothing gravely insulting in what I said - if people are serious about defending their standpoint, I'm happy to debate. If not, I don't go around pointing specific fingers and saying 'You! Your argument is pathetic!' Not unless they've seriously provoked me, anyway.

Especially not when we both really like the game!

I did mean to sound a bit confrontational, but at this point I honestly feel the masses that FF13 is meant to apply to are far too jaded and seeing through rose-tinted glasses to truly appeal to. Fan critique is valid but exaggerated and unable to be free of biases; I feel you are also basing it on that which I feel is flawed. As for all the complaints, there are some that are either kinda.. it honestly isn't a very honest complaint, or there are some things that just *had* to be the way they were (like the linearity of the first half of the game). You do word things well, and I am sorry for being confrontational where that was completely unwarranted.

Although I guess there's a semantics war at place here between "great" and "very good"; Final Fantasy or not I truly found much of the characters and plot to be great though it took a little while to appreciate it; my feelings are the same towards FF8- I feel like nobody else would take the time I take to try and give certain plots a fair chance, and you can see over the course of a year that I went from someone who said "the orphanage scene was bullshit" to "wait... it should've been built up better, but it sheds a ton of light on a bunch of Squall's personality traits".

And the gameplay I thought was brilliant to begin with, and a bunch of the arbitrary limits [save party leader death = game over, which made sense for a little while but not once you had your full party] were meant to keep within the way the battle system worked. But I still don't think it's entirely fair to say that someone is in "denial" if it's a good game, especially considering the amount of jadedness/over criticalness of the fanbase.

Personally:I didnt-t find orphan nor barthandalus that hard.

It was more annoying than actual hard.

I beat the final barthandalus battle and orphan on the first try

Overall:The game wasn-t that hard,it was more of the same repeated hour after hour.

I found it hard to care about the actual gameplay.
Some games are an absolute delight to play.I think one of the most important aspects of a game,is its gameplay.
The story is also extremely important in an rpg,otherwise you pretty much have a first person fighting game with no story to lure you in.

You can get away with a lack of story if the gameplay is amazing enough to make you forget about it for a while,but you will eventually be thinking:Why am i doing this again?

The thjng is though Nos, you ground and ground for levels until your party was razor sharp! That requires an awful lot of diligent hours on the clock, which a lot of people (particularly these days when games are appealing to shorter and shorter attention spans), aren't willing to put in, just to stand a chance against the regular bosses in the main story. I'm a heavy grinder when the fancy takes me myself, but the amount of grinding that you need to do to stay in contention against Bart, Cid and Orphan is asking a lot. If they were optional bosses, it wouldn't be an issue, but making story progress so difficult without such a big time investment is a dangerous game for Square to play (as people are more conscious than ever before about how they spend their time).

There's also the fact that in the run-up to the first fight against Bart and the fight against Cid, there aren't many decent places to grind. Certainly nothing as grinder friendly as Pulse is later on, giving you a bonaza of levelling opportunities, different foes, places to explore, quests to do etc etc. But in the run-up to those boss fights, there is nothing so grand. Just long slogs through a couple of corridors and only a small bestiary of enemies to face off against. Those areas are neither fun to grind in, nor are they particularly EXP intensive.

Merc R:
Look, I'm not denying that the rose tinted glasses do factor in, but I base my opinions squarely on how I felt playing the game. I'm not someone who feels the series has gone for ages without a classic installment (FF12 is one of my favourites, and I really enjoyed X-2 as well). But I do feel that the series has kind of hit a ceiling in its current form. I feel that rather than adopt big changes, the series needs to just do what its doing on a whole new scale. Hit us so hard with how epic and ambitious it is that people have no choice but to sit up and take notice. That doesn't mean it needs to be dumbed down, but for me bigger scale and truly edge of the seat thrills and spills, along with some attention on the character front is the way forward.

I don't really have a problem with the characters of FF13 (I like all of them really), but I equally don't think they stood any real chance of winning over any but the most committed JRPG fans. There are examples of good characters in JRPGs out there that do appeal to western audiences (Nier from the game of the same name was well regarded as I remember, and I certainly liked him, to name but one example). Final Fantasy is the biggest, best funded, most high profile JRPG - I really think that if JRPGs are to find a way to survive and get back to prominence, Final Fantasy has to play a major role. There's more at stake at the moment than just the series itself IMO.

I really enjoyed FF13, and I'm looking forward to the sequel. I'm just waiting for *that* game, the JRPG that defines the genre in this gen, that really blows my socks off and makes me hungry again for the genre. Because despite many fine titles like Eternal Sonata, Nier, Tales of Vesperia, Final Fantasy 13 and Cross Edge (hey, I liked it!), I don't think we've seen the game that we could all agree was *the* one for this gen.

As for opinions... look, I'm not looking for a fight, but I'm not going to run away from what I believe. I consider Revan a good friend, and I don't think there is anything wrong with expressing opinions in a forthright manner (something which I have to say that I feel he has been treated very unfairly for at times). But I appreciate that some people are put off by such debating styles, especially when they become flame wars. I would argue though, that such things are not what I (and I believe Revan too) ever intend. The internet is a very easy medium for tempers to flare, and strong opinions will always run the risk of inflaming tensions, but as I stated earlier, I don't see that the alternative of everyone creeping about, frightened to death of giving an opnion on anything in case it upsets someone, would be preferable.

I'm going to leave it there, because I don't want us to get sidetracked (particularly on a subject this sensitive). Revan himself has commented that we could do with moderators around here, to step in and tell both sides when they/we are out of line. I think that would be the best solution, and perhaps someone could put in a word to try and get some law and order installed around here? Because I would hope that all of us would rather spend our time debating games, rather than fighting each other in the street.

What ruined it for me was the story; it didn't keep me wanting to play the game to see what came next. Besides it was very confusing at some points, with all the different people like the l'Cie and the fal'Cie and all of them. It got too hard to understand and I just lost interest in the game. Besides I'm not a big fan of the game system; X-2's ATB system was much better than this one.

I really enjoyed FF13, and I'm looking forward to the sequel. I'm just waiting for *that* game, the JRPG that defines the genre in this gen, that really blows my socks off and makes me hungry again for the genre. Because despite many fine titles like Eternal Sonata, Nier, Tales of Vesperia, Final Fantasy 13 and Cross Edge (hey, I liked it!), I don't think we've seen the game that we could all agree was *the* one for this gen.
Xenoblade Chronicles turned out to be that game for a lot of people. I didn't enjoy it as much as Final Fantasy 12 though, which I replayed around the same time I played Xenoblade. I compare the two because they're similar in a few ways.

Also 100% fact coming up right here
Final Fantasy 13 was full of way too much melodrama and characters talking without saying anything. SE should cut that junk out and make their future titles more like 9 or 12 in terms of story and characters.

I was beginning to a feel a little optimistic towards 13-2 until I played the demo. Lightning's narration in the demo is so bad holy smokes I do not like that character. The SMT style monster capture/fusion interested me, but the battle system is still really centred around that stagger mechanic which I find to be a chore (at least with some monsters). Also, the aesthetic still doesn't do much for me. I ended up turning the demo off after running through hallways that looked similar to those I ran through in 13.

So at this point I'm less interested, but I'll still probably end up playing the full game eventually. I guess I was expecting the game to be sugary sweet like X-2 was (and I really like that game), but it looks like it will just be more 13. It's probably way too soon for me to make a call like that, though.

I approve of the love for X-2 on this thread! Excellent game, and IMO the best battle system in FF. Plus that game had Tobli in it, and he's the greatest.

Yes, I had heard that Xenoblade was very good, but I don't have a Wii unfortunately. And whilst I have not been above buying a console for 1 must have game in the past, I really, really don't like motion controls. I just don't want to buy anything to do with motion control, as its like I'm endorsing it, and encouraging these companies to keep doing it. I'm just 1 man of course, but it seems like I'm not alone on this. Hopefully, we can soon get past all this motion control/3D nonsense.

The melodrama is a difficult issue, because with what happens to characters in RPGs of all kinds, it often feels like the story skims over what should be massive emotional trauma. The characters in FF13 know they are almost certainly going to die, and in a terrifyingly painful way that will leave them still aware, but in a wretched, debased state. Sazh has lost his son, and even if he finds him, knows that the same fate awaits his boy. Its not like this drama is out of place, given the circumstances.

But let's face it, it gets really annoying when characters are constantly in a funk like this. Same in games like Dragon Age, where Fenris and Anders won't stop going on about slavery and mage inequality etc. They are weighty issues that would permanently scar a character's outlook on life, but it doesn't make it any easier for us to listen to every single time they open their mouths. Meanwhile, people have no problem with guys like Commander Shepard who learns he's just been resurrected from death - no reaction, beyond a momentary 'Really... huh.' Given the whole essence of what it is to actually be an alien species and think like them in a split second - fine, apart from a temporary headache. Strong willed is one thing, but...

It undermines the story if characters don't have any emotional reactions, not least because characters without flaws and fears etc are not believable. But banging on about these issues, even when it is entirely appropriate that they do so, loses us as players very quickly. Obsidian poke fun at how whingy the crew in KOTOR 1 were, by having HK-47 mimic them mockingly in KOTOR 2, expressing his utter disgust for their melodramatic drippery. So its no surprise that people love characters who have little to no emotional baggage or who get it over it immediately (Mordin for example in ME2, like all Salarians has a biological ability to process emotions faster and put them behind him, making a great character all the better.

As for Lightning... Well, Ali Hillis may be a beloved voice actor to many, but I've always felt that she's a bit overrated. Her husky voice and oddly deliberate and stilted intonation at times swings wildly between charming and just embarassing IMO.

It undermines the story if characters don't have any emotional reactions, not least because characters without flaws and fears etc are not believable. But banging on about these issues, even when it is entirely appropriate that they do so, loses us as players very quickly. Obsidian poke fun at how whingy the crew in KOTOR 1 were, by having HK-47 mimic them mockingly in KOTOR 2, expressing his utter disgust for their melodramatic drippery. So its no surprise that people love characters who have little to no emotional baggage or who get it over it immediately (Mordin for example in ME2, like all Salarians has a biological ability to process emotions faster and put them behind him, making a great character all the better.

As for Lightning... Well, Ali Hillis may be a beloved voice actor to many, but I've always felt that she's a bit overrated. Her husky voice and oddly deliberate and stilted intonation at times swings wildly between charming and just embarassing IMO.[/QUOTE]

Hey vrykolas? what about oblivion? Most characters are very bland,except sheogorath.

Sheogorath is the only character i actually like,and that is because of his extreme personality.
Oblivion is a game that is about gameplay,not story.While there are story parts,its very small.

Also:I-m hearing more and more bad things about american rpgs:

I heard bad things about skyrim being linear,and having more cutscenes and taking longer to actually get to the class.I hear that the lockpick system and fight system are closer to fallout style gameplay.

I heard bad things about mass effect 3,but i can-t remember them all.I think it was something about the shop system and skills.
I hear really bad things about dragon age 2,like:Being waay more linear than dragon age origins,and the characters being far less emotion,and less interactivity.
i heard fable 3 isn-t good,but i don-t know why.

I-m trying to be careful.

I hear mixed feelings about kotor.

I like Fable 3, people are way too hard on that game. Only problem I had with it was it was too short. Do a Fable game on even a tenth of the scale of an Elder Scrolls game, and that'd be a sight to see. If nothing else, its always nice to see a game come from somewhere other than America or Japan from time to time (its a British game).

But yeah, you are *absolutely* right about the 'characters' (if you can even call them that) in Oblivion, Skyrim etc etc. Dragon Age 2 is more constricted than DAO (not many different locations at all), the story is of extremely variable quality, and the party is not one of Bioware's best. Talk of Mass Effect 3 (or did you mean 2?) is fairly pointless at this stage, because it isn't even out yet! If you meant ME2 though, then yes I have many problems with the upgrades and levelling up (but I heard this has been addressed in 3, so fingers crossed on that).

On a side note, I wasn't happy at all the cybernetic upgrades, skeletal reinforcing, skin weave upgrading etc in ME2. The mods in ME1 were made to your armour, and biotic implants were the only real cybernetics that your character might have. In ME2, you're replacing whole chunks of your body with tech (it happens to you at the start, but then you continue to do it yourself throughout the game, and Shepard never even comments on this, even though its a big step to start cramming your body with tech!) The fact that it all gets done with no apparent need for surgery of any kind is also bizarre.

Drama is fine, but it's very poorly done in FF13. That's all I meant by that.

ME2's introduction was stupid too.

Fair point - intent is one thing, execution is another. And there are some pretty cringeworthy moments - such as seeing Snow leaping to the floor with his hand on his heart to earnestly pledge oaths at every opportunity, being a prime example.

And the Lazarus project is just a daft idea, particularly as they forget all about it immediatly.

I like Fable 3, people are way too hard on that game. Only problem I had with it was it was too short. Do a Fable game on even a tenth of the scale of an Elder Scrolls game, and that'd be a sight to see. If nothing else, its always nice to see a game come from somewhere other than America or Japan from time to time (its a British game).

I really liked fable 2.
I haven-t tried fable 3 yet,so i can-t comment

But yeah, you are *absolutely* right about the 'characters' (if you can even call them that) in Oblivion, Skyrim etc etc. Dragon Age 2 is more constricted than DAO (not many different locations at all), the story is of extremely variable quality, and the party is not one of Bioware's best. Talk of Mass Effect 3 (or did you mean 2?) is fairly pointless at this stage, because it isn't even out yet! If you meant ME2 though, then yes I have many problems with the upgrades and levelling up (but I heard this has been addressed in 3, so fingers crossed on that).

I think the quests in oblivion were great.
the dialogue and dungeons weren-t that great.I absolutely loved the quests though.
I just finished the shivering isles quest,and became an all powerful madgod who could control the weather.
I keep ending up playing oblivion over and over just for the quests,so you can imagine how much i like the quests.

I also really really like the dialogue in dragon age origins.

On a side note, I wasn't happy at all the cybernetic upgrades, skeletal reinforcing, skin weave upgrading etc in ME2. The mods in ME1 were made to your armour, and biotic implants were the only real cybernetics that your character might have. In ME2, you're replacing whole chunks of your body with tech (it happens to you at the start, but then you continue to do it yourself throughout the game, and Shepard never even comments on this, even though its a big step to start cramming your body with tech!) The fact that it all gets done with no apparent need for surgery of any kind is also bizarre.

I was talking about me3 rumors.
As for me2,i heard some bad comments,but i hear that me3 is worse.
I think it was me2 that i heard that you couldn-t explore the land,and instead used a satelite and checked each area of the world painstakingly.

I heard in me1,you could drive like some sort of vehicle.

Yeah, it was called the Mako and it added some variety. The Mako sections were a bit awkward (mainly due to the outrageously rugged terrain, which made getting around much more difficult than was wise), but I think the sections had their own charm. They certainly helped to make the universe feel bigger and there was a sense of awe at driving about on an alien world, looking up at different coloured skies and suns etc, that for me helped to give ME1 a better atmosphere.

ME2 is more streamlined/dumbed down (take your pick on which of those you believe). The game is broken up into lots of small bite sized chunks, there are fewer areas, its much easier to get from A to B, levelling up is scaled back in importance to the point of near absurdity, the upgrades to weapons, armour are all passive, leaving a very small pool of powers, and some of those are passive skills that just have to be activated once (its basically just a 3D shooter with some talking bits). Its the definition of an 'Actionised Sequel'. It has its moments, but to me the change in tone is too much for me to enjoy it as much as ME1.

The planet scanning gets singled out, because it is so different to everything else (its really slow, compared to the greased lightning speed of everything else in the game). It comes across as simply being there to pad the game out, because they needed some way for you to be able to get resources, but didn't want to include the Mako. Bioware have a very bad record on this kind of thing (i.e when they try to do something other than the standard game experience). Their mini-games and driving, turret, hacking sections are always a chore. The only one I enjoyed was the '1942' style vertical shooter in Jade Empire.

As for ME3... I'll reserve judgement until its out. Too much doom and gloom about an upcoming can become a self fulfilling prophecy. You convince yourself you aren't going to like it, and end up doing just that. I hope its a good game, and I want to go into it with as open a mind as I can.

FFXIII was really bad,and here is why i think it was bad:

Hope hardly changes,i mean:He whines about his problems,gets to chapter 13,when he finally confronts and deals with,and forgives snow.
Snow is an idiot,and not interesting either.
Lightning:I didn-t mind her at the beginning when she gave the cold shoulder to everybody,and especially was harsh.I think the reason,was because i kinda expect that kind of thing from a military officer dealing with a critical situation.It would do no good to stop and cry when trying to escape.Later on though,she started to become melodramatic and whine a lot.This was really when she started to grate on me,leaving fang sazh and vanille.

Vanille is exactly like selphie,and for that i don-t like her.But i would rather have a selphie clone than hear the constant melodrama.
Sazh was interesting when we see him try to commit suicide.His whole life was falling apart.His son was turned to a crystal and selphie,i mean vanille was responsible.He was too cowardly to commit suicide,and too cowardly to fight her.
Fang:She was dull and forgettable.
Cid raines:I liked him when he was trying to change the world by killing your team.At the second time when he has his chance to get out,he doesn-t,and by the third time when we tell him that we are on the same side and trying to kill barthandalus,we give up.

Overall:i-d give it a 3 out of 10.

The story really doesn-t move much,and it stands still for a really long time.Even when it does move,it never gets interesting.

To me,FFXIII had nothing to ponder,nothing to stimulate the mind in story.The story was nothing spectacular,and the dialogue was nothing spectacular either.
The gameplay was lackbuster,so all these things had nothing to fall back on.

It undermines the story if characters don't have any emotional reactions, not least because characters without flaws and fears etc are not believable. But banging on about these issues, even when it is entirely appropriate that they do so, loses us as players very quickly. Obsidian poke fun at how whingy the crew in KOTOR 1 were, by having HK-47 mimic them mockingly in KOTOR 2, expressing his utter disgust for their melodramatic drippery. So its no surprise that people love characters who have little to no emotional baggage or who get it over it immediately (Mordin for example in ME2, like all Salarians has a biological ability to process emotions faster and put them behind him, making a great character all the better.

HK-47 had the same attitude in the first KotOR, addressing everyone as Meatbags and wanting to blast everything. So it wasn't Obsidian poking fun at the crew in KotOR, they were just keeping HK-47 in character.


I heard bad things about mass effect 3,but i can-t remember them all.I think it was something about the shop system and skills.

Considering Mass Effect 3 isn't even out yet (March 6th for the US, March 8th for Australia), I'd wait to see what it's actually like before tearing into it.


I hear really bad things about dragon age 2,like:Being waay more linear than dragon age origins,and the characters being far less emotion,and less interactivity.

Dragon Age 2 is a good game in it's own right, just rather small in comparison to Dragon Age Origins. Some of the characters are returning characters from Dragon Age: Origins and Awakening, and from my perspective, are still pretty true to their previous incarnations.


i heard fable 3 isn-t good,but i don-t know why.

Had a lot of glitches and faults... a LOT.


I hear mixed feelings about kotor.

Like what?


FFXIII was really bad,and here is why i think it was bad:

Hope hardly changes,i mean:He whines about his problems,gets to chapter 13,when he finally confronts and deals with,and forgives snow.
Snow is an idiot,and not interesting either.
Lightning:I didn-t mind her at the beginning when she gave the cold shoulder to everybody,and especially was harsh.I think the reason,was because i kinda expect that kind of thing from a military officer dealing with a critical situation.It would do no good to stop and cry when trying to escape.Later on though,she started to become melodramatic and whine a lot.This was really when she started to grate on me,leaving fang sazh and vanille.

Vanille is exactly like selphie,and for that i don-t like her.But i would rather have a selphie clone than hear the constant melodrama.
Sazh was interesting when we see him try to commit suicide.His whole life was falling apart.His son was turned to a crystal and selphie,i mean vanille was responsible.He was too cowardly to commit suicide,and too cowardly to fight her.
Fang:She was dull and forgettable.
Cid raines:I liked him when he was trying to change the world by killing your team.At the second time when he has his chance to get out,he doesn-t,and by the third time when we tell him that we are on the same side and trying to kill barthandalus,we give up.

Overall:i-d give it a 3 out of 10.

The story really doesn-t move much,and it stands still for a really long time.Even when it does move,it never gets interesting.

To me,FFXIII had nothing to ponder,nothing to stimulate the mind in story.The story was nothing spectacular,and the dialogue was nothing spectacular either.
The gameplay was lackbuster,so all these things had nothing to fall back on.

I still think Yahtzee Croshaw's review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation is rather apt in his analysis of the game. Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII Review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)

I still think Yahtzee Croshaw's review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation is rather apt in his analysis of the game. Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII Review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)[/QUOTE]

There is just one problem with his review:He never even got to the 20 hour mark.

I beat the whole game,so i can say with a clear mind:I really cant stand the characters story or gameplay.

The gameplay in the early levels is horrible,All you do,is auto attack during most fights early on.It isn-t until chapter 13 where you actually get to explore,even then:It becomes a simple short fetch quest in an uninteresting place to explore.
Couldn-t they add more to their lands to explore and things to find to make it interesting? i don-t care if they had to cut out a lot and shorten it to get to the point,in fact:It would probably be better that way.

What about the ending? It was a massive disappointment.

EVerything becomes solved,sazhs child becomes uncrystalized,and same goes for snows girlfriend.
Everyone becomes a regular human and live happily ever after.It just felt like there could have been more.I was hoping for so much more from the ending,after a really nice fight with the villain(barthandalus) and (orphan)

Best thing about the final bosses,is their boss theme.

ANY FUCKING GAME THAT TAKES 20 HOURS TO 'GET GOOD' IS SHIT.

I don't give a damn if the ending is ORGASMIC...game is STILL shit.

ANY FUCKING GAME THAT TAKES 20 HOURS TO 'GET GOOD' IS SHIT.

I don't give a damn if the ending is ORGASMIC...game is STILL shit.

It is shit.

I put so many hours into the game,and in the end i got sick to death of it.

I have no desire to ever play it again.

I know, I FINALLY managed to beat it.

I was more bored than when I play most Tales games.

HK-47 had the same attitude in the first KotOR, addressing everyone as Meatbags and wanting to blast everything. So it wasn't Obsidian poking fun at the crew in KotOR, they were just keeping HK-47 in character.

I still think Yahtzee Croshaw's review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation is rather apt in his analysis of the game. Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII Review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)

While i like some of yahtzees reviews,i have a problem with yahtzee himself:

1:He doesnt seem like an rpg fan.I watched quite a bit of his videos,and he seems like he is mostly an fps person.If you like action,and don-t care about story,rpgs are not really your thing.

2:He speaks too quickly:He needs to slow down a bit and take a breather.

On the other hand:I agree with him on mgs4 story being a bit boring at times,but it does have some good bits.I think that the problem,is that it has a lot of parts that felt like they were very unecessary in mgs4,more so than any other game in the series.

There is just one problem with his review:He never even got to the 20 hour mark.

So? If a person dislikes the game from what they've played, are they supposed to sit there and continue playing a game they dislike? What's the point in that?


I beat the whole game,so i can say with a clear mind:I really cant stand the characters story or gameplay.

I usually complete a game myself and then base my opinion on it, however in the case of FFXIII, I can't do that. Look through earlier pages in this thread to find out why I feel the way I do about this installment in the FF series.


The gameplay in the early levels is horrible,All you do,is auto attack during most fights early on.It isn-t until chapter 13 where you actually get to explore,even then:It becomes a simple short fetch quest in an uninteresting place to explore.

That is bad game design. Play through a boring game only to have the action 'pick up' towards the end?


While i like some of yahtzees reviews,i have a problem with yahtzee himself:

1:He doesnt seem like an rpg fan.I watched quite a bit of his videos,and he seems like he is mostly an fps person.If you like action,and don-t care about story,rpgs are not really your thing.

Actually he is a RPG fan, he's stated in that review that his favorite was FFVI. I don't know where you get the idea he's a 'FPS person' either and what's wrong with liking action? However I will say that with the direction BioWare and EA are taking Mass Effect 3, with the gamer being able to choose which of three modes to play the game with: Action Mode, with a emphasis on the action and less on the story. Story Mode, with little action. Role Playing mode, the same mode the previous titles were.


2:He speaks too quickly:He needs to slow down a bit and take a breather.

That's just the way he does his reviews. Always has and always will. You get used to it.


On the other hand:I agree with him on mgs4 story being a bit boring at times,but it does have some good bits.I think that the problem,is that it has a lot of parts that felt like they were very unecessary in mgs4,more so than any other game in the series.

Never played MGS4 (as I don't have a PS3) so I can't comment about that. I will say that I agree 100% with his negative reviews for Star Wars The Force Unleashed I and II as well as his reviews of Saints Row 2 and The Third. However, this isn't really the topic to talk about other games as it is meant to be a discussion regarding FFXIII.

So? If a person dislikes the game from what they've played, are they supposed to sit there and continue playing a game they dislike? What's the point in that?



I usually complete a game myself and then base my opinion on it, however in the case of FFXIII, I can't do that. Look through earlier pages in this thread to find out why I feel the way I do about this installment in the FF series.



That is bad game design. Play through a boring game only to have the action 'pick up' towards the end?

He wasn-t able to give a complete analysis of the game.

Heck,i played through ff8 and hated the game quite a bit,but i forced myself to go on just for completion sake,and the ability to give a full review.
A review becomes obsolete if you havent at least completed it once and know everything there is to know about the game,otherwise,how can you review it?

On the other hand,i also feel his hatred towards ff7

Actually he is a RPG fan, he's stated in that review that his favorite was FFVI. I don't know where you get the idea he's a 'FPS person' either and what's wrong with liking action? However I will say that with the direction BioWare and EA are taking Mass Effect 3, with the gamer being able to choose which of three modes to play the game with: Action Mode, with a emphasis on the action and less on the story. Story Mode, with little action. Role Playing mode, the same mode the previous titles were.

I saw yahtzee playing a ton of fps games,and liking the monotonous non story driven action.It almost makes it feel as if he prefers fps games.
Maybe i am also a little bit biased towards it because i prefer rps,i dunno.

That's just the way he does his reviews. Always has and always will. You get used to it.

I still think he could take a breather or two once in a while.


Never played MGS4 (as I don't have a PS3) so I can't comment about that. I will say that I agree 100% with his negative reviews for Star Wars The Force Unleashed I and II as well as his reviews of Saints Row 2 and The Third. However, this isn't really the topic to talk about other games as it is meant to be a discussion regarding FFXIII.

What news have you got on FFXIII 2? I have a bad feeling that square enix will just lower itself further,and pull away from games we actually want to play.

He wasn-t able to give a complete analysis of the game.


Then by that logic, that case can also be drawn up against ALL professional game reviewers as I'm pretty damn sure that none of them would of been able to complete a game they were paid to review due to time constraints.


Heck,i played through ff8 and hated the game quite a bit,but i forced myself to go on just for completion sake,and the ability to give a full review.

You hate FFVIII and that's your choice. I quite enjoy it and I have my reasons for that. Forcing yourself to finish a game you dislike is rather pedantic and foolish. Why waste your time and money on that? I admit, I've done that in the past myself... and regretting wasting my time like that.


A review becomes obsolete if you havent at least completed it once and know everything there is to know about the game,otherwise,how can you review it?

I disagree. Completely a game may allowed one to give a informed review, however each person is different. Speaking for myself, I hate FFXIII (No, I won't regurgitate what I've already posted in this thread. Want to know why I hate this game, go read my earlier posts) and I have valid reasons for that (valid reasons in my own mind that is). A majority of professional reviewers have a knack for forming a opinion and therefore make a review of said game from what they've played of it. True Yahtzee never finished the game, however he DID play some of it and can make his own opinion (and therefore a review) of the game based off what he has played.


On the other hand,i also feel his hatred towards ff7

A lot of people share that.


What news have you got on FFXIII 2? I have a bad feeling that square enix will just lower itself further,and pull away from games we actually want to play.

Why would I know that? I think the thread created by Crysta in the General Final Fantasy subforum, Anyone played the FF13-2 demo yet? (Thread 108696) and my response in that thread adequately explains my position on that.

You hate FFVIII and that's your choice. I quite enjoy it and I have my reasons for that. Forcing yourself to finish a game you dislike is rather pedantic and foolish. Why waste your time and money on that? I admit, I've done that in the past myself... and regretting wasting my time like that.

It wasn-t the story i hated,it was the gameplay aspect.The story to me did seem stupid at many parts,but it was entertaining to watch the corny love story advance.


I disagree. Completely a game may allowed one to give a informed review, however each person is different. Speaking for myself, I hate FFXIII (No, I won't regurgitate what I've already posted in this thread. Want to know why I hate this game, go read my earlier posts) and I have valid reasons for that (valid reasons in my own mind that is). A majority of professional reviewers have a knack for forming a opinion and therefore make a review of said game from what they've played of it. True Yahtzee never finished the game, however he DID play some of it and can make his own opinion (and therefore a review) of the game based off what he has played.

I finished FFXIII for completion sake,because i want to give a full review of it and my thoughts.If i hadn-t finished it,all i would have is biased opinion that isnt complete.How do you know you won-t like it if you dont try it out? Sure,you can hear stuff,about a game,but who is to say you wont enjoy certain aspects? That is also one reason why i am holding out from having an opinion on games like kotor.I want to try it out myself so i can actually respectfully say what i think.

A lot of people share that.

A lot of people like ff7 too,so i dont mind that either,so long as they dont rub it in my face

Why would I know that? I think the thread created by Crysta in the General Final Fantasy subforum, Anyone played the FF13-2 demo yet? (Thread 108696) and my response in that thread adequately explains my position on that.

It wasn-t the story i hated,it was the gameplay aspect.The story to me did seem stupid at many parts,but it was entertaining to watch the corny love story advance.

Then I'm in the minority who did enjoy FFVIII, even the gameplay aspect. The story, imo, worked well and I did enjoy it... for my own reasons.


I finished FFXIII for completion sake,because i want to give a full review of it and my thoughts.If i hadn-t finished it,all i would have is biased opinion that isnt complete.How do you know you won-t like it if you dont try it out? Sure,you can hear stuff,about a game,but who is to say you wont enjoy certain aspects? That is also one reason why i am holding out from having an opinion on games like kotor.I want to try it out myself so i can actually respectfully say what i think.

Well I couldn't finish FFXIII, even for completion sake. I didn't enjoy what I played of it and after what I've seen (on youtube) regarding the later acts, imo I didn't miss much at all. Each person has differing opinions and some can form a opinion on what they've played and based it off such. I KNOW I won't enjoy finding out what happens to Female Cloud and co/etc/etc. From what I've played of FFXIII (and on my third and LAST attempt at playing it, I got to Chapter 9), I hated it... and regretted spending money on buying it again for a third time! If there are some who enjoy it, so be it... but I would think that by all the negative responses to XIII on other forums/Youtube/etc/etc, that XIII wasn't the great hit SE was expecting.


A lot of people like ff7 too,so i dont mind that either,so long as they dont rub it in my face

To quote a former member/moderator, Neo Xzhan, when it comes to describing FFVII:


See, it's like religion. It's not God I hate, but his fanclub.

Speaking for myself, I agree with that 100% as the majority (Not all 100% of it's fans... just 99.999% of them) of FFVII's fans hav no desire to play anything else apart from VII or they compare every other game available (Even those of different genres) with VII and flame others for even saying one thing wrong about VII or it's compilation.

Then I'm in the minority who did enjoy FFVIII, even the gameplay aspect. The story, imo, worked well and I did enjoy it... for my own reasons.


Me too, FF8 was a classic for me too! FF9 i did found weird the battle system since i started on 8 but but the history got me so a started to playin ff9 too!

Also, i started playing the XIII-2 and looks like a HUGE improvement !

Yea, XIII-2 adds a lot of things that XIII didn't have. Personally, I don't mind a linear game as long as the story and characters are compelling, in which this was the case for me in XIII

Then I'm in the minority who did enjoy FFVIII, even the gameplay aspect. The story, imo, worked well and I did enjoy it... for my own reasons.



Well I couldn't finish FFXIII, even for completion sake. I didn't enjoy what I played of it and after what I've seen (on youtube) regarding the later acts, imo I didn't miss much at all. Each person has differing opinions and some can form a opinion on what they've played and based it off such. I KNOW I won't enjoy finding out what happens to Female Cloud and co/etc/etc. From what I've played of FFXIII (and on my third and LAST attempt at playing it, I got to Chapter 9), I hated it... and regretted spending money on buying it again for a third time! If there are some who enjoy it, so be it... but I would think that by all the negative responses to XIII on other forums/Youtube/etc/etc, that XIII wasn't the great hit SE was expecting.

The problem with not completing it,is that you won-t have a full detail of the story,unless you decide to read it online
The gameplay can change in a game as well,but in FFXIIIs case:Not likely.Its sad that it didn't measure up in any way to the previous games.This is also one reason why i prefer to play demos:You get a better grasp on what is fun for you,and what is not fun for you.Watching a trailer of a game,is not what i would consider a demo.All it is,is a technical video of graphics,but not of gameplay.

To quote a former member/moderator, Neo Xzhan, when it comes to describing FFVII:

Speaking for myself, I agree with that 100% as the majority (Not all 100% of it's fans... just 99.999% of them) of FFVII's fans hav no desire to play anything else apart from VII or they compare every other game available (Even those of different genres) with VII and flame others for even saying one thing wrong about VII or it's compilation.

Its a good quote,but i won't go too much into ff7.I never liked ff7,and i didn't start really dissing it till i was constantly bombarded with ff7 fanboys praising it and worshiping it,along with all those assholes at se who keep making more prequels and sequels,and cameos.

quote drogore:Me too, FF8 was a classic for me too! FF9 i did found weird the battle system since i started on 8 but but the history got me so a started to playin ff9 too!

Funny you mention that,since ff8 was the weird one of the series in the 90s.
It had a story that revolved around a love triangle,and a gameplay that was both tedious and over complicated.
The game did have its interesting points,but a lot of people disliked it for these points.I can see why some people might hate the gameplay in ff8,especially the card game with its stupid rules passing towards other countries and having to spend hours abolishing it.

FF9 had a simple gameplay.
It plays more like classic final fantasies,with its traditional fantasy setting,rather than ultra realistic sci fi world.

A lot of newer fans love that sci fi world,but its a little harder to fit sci fi and fantasy with magic in a title called:final fantasy.
Sometimes reason alone makes no sense.I can understand wanting to beat someone up with your bare fists,because you make less noise and its always cool to have martial arts fights.It works also in modern day settings very well too,as you can see in games like final fight and the metal gear solid,where you use cqc to knock enemies down,or even double dragon.

Now swords:They can be cool,but sometimes you wonder if square enix has gone out of its way to be so ultra realistic,why not just abandon swords all together? A lot of modern final fantasies are becoming less fantasy and more sci fi approach,and i have a mixture of feelings.

Sometimes,i feel a little sad,because it is pushing away those traditional fantasy rpg settings,and a lot of people love traditional rpg settings.I kinda liked that you had different looking people in ff9,so what if its not ultra realistic.Being ultra realistic is not always the best option,but its not always the worse either.

In the early games,i always remember ff8 and ff7 being the most ultra sci fi realism games.
In ff7,you had mostly humans,but you did have at least 2 creatures that kept it somewhat sci fi.
FF8 on the other hand,abandoned almost all of its roots towards fantasy,and stuck with realism mostly.
The biggest fantasy part,are shumis and summons,with maybe exception of the weapons as well.

FFX was way more realism,except for maybe the blitzbal idea,and the shupaf.
FFX was always also kind of weird.Its hard to decide wether its considered futuristic,or done in the past.
We have some forms of weapons,but you don't see a huge amount of high tech stuff either,aside from maybe the albheds and zanarkand at the beginning,but we don't even get to see much because it is destroyed.at the beginning.

I am also one of the types who does like sci fi,but i also like mid evil swords and sorcery.
I also believe that just because it isn't the other doesn't make it bad.

I like interesting surroundings,places that show culture and interest in the surroundings.I want some place i want to explore,something of which FFXIII didn't do,and ff7 failed for me on many levels.
I liked some towns in ff9,but it was mostly to hang around because of the cool music,with the exception of alexandria.Alexandria was my favorite ff9 town i think.

It was huge and full of different looking cultural creatures,which i liked.
FF8 cultures didn't seem like they were all that different,with the exception of the shumi,which is why i liked the shumi so much.
The shumi mini quest was so fun,because squall and the team were lost,because they didn't understand the shumi ways.
It made for some interesting moments because they didn't understand,and were very confused with the gift.

I could always imagine a small or even medium sized gap between 2 cultures.It would be as if you had gone to japan,or hong kong.
The culture is very different,and would leave you confused about the way they see things.

I hardly think you can say that FF8 'revolves around a love triangle'. Rinoa's relationship with Seifer is only mentioned once in the story (directly anyway), and it never comes up at all after that. Seifer has a comment of 'Even you?' or something like that if you take Rinoa to fight him in Galbadia Garden, but that's it really. The love story doesn't really start properly until about Disc 3 anyway, when Squall finally admits to himself that he does care about her - and Seifer only has about 2 scenes in the game full stop after that point.

Either way:The intro is supposed to give you this image of a romantic ending where they cling into each others arms and a sappy music plays.
The fact that its so corny that it becomes unintentionally funny,is a very bad sign.

And seifer was pretty angsty.I mean:All he thought of was getting veangance on squall,and for what? getting seed position and him being left out.
His reasons seemed pretty sloppy.

Squall for me was more interesting,because it was as if he had aspergers.
His whole personality is that of someone who is autistic,and here is the proof:

He is very self contained and prefers to be alone.
He keeps his thoughts to himself,and many times fails to tell his team mates his plans
He never shows interesting in talking.

But he isn-t,because he only shows vague symptoms.

I think the best ones for those type of scenes,are the really early ones.
When he is partying on disc 2,is but one scene where he refuses to communicate.

No arguments on those points, but I was only commenting on your 'Love Triangle' thing. That is a feature of many (if not all) RPGs, west and East. But the one in FF8 is over before it even begins. By the time we actually find out that there was anything between Rinoa and Seifer, its already over and doesn't come up again. So to say the story revolves around it is just wrong IMO.

After Final Fantasy X, the production basically lost their prestige. They were the Oscars of gaming and everyone knew about Final Fantasy just as much as they did about Mario. Back then we relied on Final Fantasy for a pure quality RPG. The previous editions of the game were incredibly memorable, they had stories with amazing substance and we know for a fact that the story is the backbone of an RPG. For what took eight years to develop, everyone was willing to say it was the worst game they've ever played. Hands down, it was a disappointing game that lacked the substance and soul its predecessors used to have. Square-Enix admitted themselves that they were focusing on graphics. XIII lacked likeability. We haven't had a female protagonist since Terra and even so, her personality was a reflection of Cloud's. Snow is impulsive and insensitive and you couldn't stand Vanille's voice. All the bosses we versed were just big and lifeless. We didn't even get an opportunity to explore the world. There were no towns. Obtaining gil was a big punch in the face. I think that comes hand in hand with the linear storyline that didn't allow you to branch out and do side quests. The game was basically there for you to play the story, just the story, and that took away the privilege of exploring the game within our own merits and creativity; basically the asset of the Final Fantasy series we have always seen.

I'm not saying the game is bad, of course it isn't. It is actually quite a decent game with some incredible graphics. However Final Fantasy had a prestigious name to live up to and that is why everyone either hates the game or feels disappointed. I feel as though Square-Enix has lost sight of what was originally amazing about the series in the first place. I'd only ask for them to follow their instincts rather than the minds of others. For once, graphics really put them in jeopardy. At least from what I've, Squaresoft and Enix decided to part ways in XIII where Squaresoft created the XIII and Enix created the Versus. I just think that if there will ever be a XV, Square-Enix really needs to re-think the new world that they create and put a real story in it. XIII's story felt like such a cold story that didn't really put into account much thought. Someone said that if XIII was two steps back, XIII-2 was one step forward and I completely agree. I hope an XV comes around. It'd be wrong to end the series on such a low.

I never liked FF7 much either,but at least it had an open world that felt more interactive.

Another problem that comes to mind,is that games are coming out too quickly,and not enough development is being made.Coming out with 10 games of the same idea is not a good idea.I-d rather have 1 sand box game come out after 3 years that is done very well,than 100 games that are done so badly that they suck.

phong:
Why would there not be a FF15? FF13 sold outrageously well - it was a *massive* commercial success. The franchise is one of very, very few series that does equally well in both western and eastern markets. And the sequel has sold huge numbers in the West also, showing that FF13 has not been the 'series killer' that some were billing it as. Many people may not have liked FF13 in the West, but to say that the series is not doing well or is doomed is to ignore the facts completely.

Its also wrong to state that FF was big news up to and including FF10, but not after. FF was big (in the west) around FF7 and FF8, then cooled off considerably in the run-up to FF9. FF9 then failed to inspire any but the hardcore fans back, and it wasn't until FF10 (the first FF on a next gen machine, with truly next gen graphics and voice acting etc) that the series came back to prominence. I do agree that the series profile has slackened again since then (but not because of falling quality IMO), but that has not come at the cost of sales or creative ambition. FF12 and FF13 were nothing if not ambitious and creatively experimental. They were not the FF games you necessarily would have expected, and that alone makes them titles that I am very interested in.

phong:
Why would there not be a FF15? FF13 sold outrageously well - it was a *massive* commercial success. The franchise is one of very, very few series that does equally well in both western and eastern markets. And the sequel has sold huge numbers in the West also, showing that FF13 has not been the 'series killer' that some were billing it as. Many people may not have liked FF13 in the West, but to say that the series is not doing well or is doomed is to ignore the facts completely.

Because they are working on FFXIII versus? Give it some time,and FFXV will come out.They are also working on other games as well.
Yet a lot of people disliked the games,many old fans felt betrayed,like me.And square enix changed the formula because people were unhappy.You would think that is a sign of something wrong.


Its also wrong to state that FF was big news up to and including FF10, but not after. FF was big (in the west) around FF7 and FF8, then cooled off considerably in the run-up to FF9. FF9 then failed to inspire any but the hardcore fans back, and it wasn't until FF10 (the first FF on a next gen machine, with truly next gen graphics and voice acting etc) that the series came back to prominence. I do agree that the series profile has slackened again since then (but not because of falling quality IMO), but that has not come at the cost of sales or creative ambition. FF12 and FF13 were nothing if not ambitious and creatively experimental. They were not the FF games you necessarily would have expected, and that alone makes them titles that I am very interested in.

FFX was a hit,but it is also very controversial.When people talk about overrated games,it seems like its usually ff7 and FFX.

Thats not to say its a bad game.In fact:I would say its better than some later games,like FFXIII.
FF8 was a massive controversy in gaming.FF8 has its fans divided between haters and lovers.Some people like it,but i cannot get an accurate reading on it.A lot of people seem to hate squall,especially some here hate squall.Zell is another character that gets a lot of hatred.

FF9:FF9 got unfair hatred on it for going back to its original roots.People who liked ff7 wanted that sci fi world that was found in ff7,and instead they got pure fantasy.Both are kind of wrong to a degree:Both can be good,but also have the capability of being absolutely terrible.I don-t mind if they mix sci fi and fantasy together,as long as its interesting.ff9-s gameplay was simple,but it was also good.I liked learning abilities from weapons and being able to equip abilities,plus:You got specific classes,so it made all classes useful in their own way.

FF9:FF9 got unfair hatred on it for going back to its original roots.People who liked ff7 wanted that sci fi world that was found in ff7,and instead they got pure fantasy.Both are kind of wrong to a degree:Both can be good,but also have the capability of being absolutely terrible.I don-t mind if they mix sci fi and fantasy together,as long as its interesting.ff9-s gameplay was simple,but it was also good.I liked learning abilities from weapons and being able to equip abilities,plus:You got specific classes,so it made all classes useful in their own way.

Now where in the Hell this game is hated, on this Board probably I'm the only one that's open enough to express my hate towards FF9.

Here (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f27/most-ignored-final-fantasy-68558/9.html#post1706130)and Here (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f27/most-ignored-final-fantasy-68558/9.html#post1706360). I speak out loudly about the Recognition that the game has.

FF9 is not hated or Ignored... By any means...

I think he's right, Top. FF9 is not regarded very well by people outside the core fanbase - its not that they dislike it so much as its the one that most mainstream gamers will crease their forehead and say 'Wait... did I even play that one?' about. Final Fantasy 'was over' for the mainstream when FF9 came out, so it got passed by for the most part by them (not that its the kind of game which would appeal to the mainstream anyway though). The old school fans love it because its a throwback to the old days, and its the last one that Sakaguichi directed. But its not considered one of the 'important' titles and indeed is one of the most irrelevant (along with FF1 through to about FF5) to those outside the series core fanbase.

FF7 and FF10 get the most love and hate, because they are the ones that are considered the most important. They have the largest fanbases, and whenever that happens, there are always lots of people who feel very strongly against such a thing too. They were the real mainstream hits, when the series went overground (as opposed to recently, when the series has still sold exceptionally, but has not been as well thought of). For me, FF10 was just too glossy and superficial, with characters I couldn't care less about and nothing of any interest happening for hours and hours on end (usually as a result of the almost uniformly awful villains). And a giant flying whale... FF7 though, is still in my opinion the best of the series, just one of those games when everything seems to click, and other than a slightly disappointing final dungeon and final boss encounter, its an all time classic.

FF8 is one of those games that has big peaks and troughs. At times, its the best FF game full stop IMO, but at others its slow, awkward to play and devotes far too much time (particularly on discs 3+4) to the Squall and Rinoa love story. The school setting and all the stereotypes that go along with such a setting, also add to the 'love it or hate it' aspect of the game. It just wasn't as immediate as FF7 was, which grabbed people with its steampunk atmosphere and its fairly dark story (its still one of the darkest JRPGs ever made, with a huge bodycount when alls said and done, including some party members).

FFIX came at the same time with Chrono Cross, Legend of Mana, Vagrant Story and Threads of Fate. Of course all of those games were overshadowed by FFIX, in terms of sales and Fanbase, keep in mind that CC is a sequel to CT, a game that went better than FFVI.

FFIX is a Greatest Hits PS1 title in the collection.

FFIX had a Commercial with FUCKING COCA-COLA!

How much more attention you want for a game with a dated battle system, developed and released at the end of the PS1 days?

FFIX got all the attention it deserved and more if you ask me.

And of course that in the mainstream it will not be considered important. The reasons for that are the most obvious ones.

That game IS NOT HATED. It's considered to be the last good FF game for the majority of the fanbase of the series.

I never said it was hated, just that the mainstream don't care about it at all - because most haven't played it, and those that have usually can't remember playing it. It was in no way a mainstream friendly game, and it seemed to go to great lengths *not* to appeal to the mainstream (the animal people cutesy looking setting, lack of an instant 'cool' factor etc etc). I respect Sakaguichi's decision to do a game that reads like a love letter to the fans, but I definately share your negative view of that game overall.

And I'm not sure you could say that the majority of the fanbase considered FF9 the last good installment. As much I despise FF10, its extremely well regarded by most of the fanbase, at least as far I can see anyway. There are a lot of people who think the series just shouldn't have contined without Sakaguichi, but I've never subscribed to that view myself, seeing as how none of my favourite FF titles were directed by him, and (FF10) aside, I've loved all the games since he left.

Well if it's not a Mainstream Friendly game, you get what you pay, bear with it. The attention that the game got is right where it deserves based on what you're saying, I still think that the game is still regarded a lot, sometimes even more than VIII.

About the Last good FF Installment I based myself in what I always saw and hear in and out of the Internet. If you check any top 10 list at Gamefaqs where an FF game is named. IX is virtually always named as the last good FF.

About Sakaguchi directing FF games...

Well, the minute I saw Vagrant Story I fell in love. It was hard for me to finish it for myself, but it was rewarding. Then I played FFT and I was blown away by it's storyline and intuitive and fun gameplay. So when I heard that the same guy will be in charge of XII, I was owned by that. Of course Matsuno left the Development of XII at some point. But you can see that the Core, the Intention and the Ideas are there.

And I still don't own a PSP to try some Tactics Ogre. xD

So, yeah, I kinda agree with you on Sakaguchi directing FF games.

Yeah, but top 10 lists that include FF titles are made by hardcore FF fans - they may be lapsed fans who no longer like the series, but they were/are fans nontheless. The kind of mainstream success I'm talking about with FF7 and FF10 is that kind that includes hardcore fans, but also goes outside the series faithful and even reaches beyond regular gamers and out into casual gamers, scenesters, partners who don't usually play games at all etc etc. It comes when your game for whatever reason hits the right notes to be 'The Game' to play. When *everyone* knows about your game.

That kind of support rarely lasts beyond the title in question, because its so dependant on an X factor that no amount of planning or marketing can generate. It(almost always) evaporates when the next game comes out. Because even if the next game is legitmately great, its unusual for lightning to strike twice in that fashion. The series may still be wildly popular afterwards, but not in the same 'revered, engaged and loved by all who look upon it' way. But that game is nevertheless forever entrenched as a classic in people's minds, that no amount of scrutiny in later years can dispel.

FF7 and FF10 are the only titles in Final Fantasy to command that kind of near mythic prestige. Which in itself can often arouse the ire of hardcore fans who feel such things are tantamount to 'selling out' etc. FF6 and FF9 are undoubtably strong favourites of the hardcore, but they (like most games) are not in the same league as FF7 and FF10 on this issue. And again, this kind of thing is not necessarily indicative of quality (I love FF7, but hate FF10), just that they were the games that really grabbed the mainstream.

[QUOTE=topopoz;1916944]Well if it's not a Mainstream Friendly game, you get what you pay, bear with it. The attention that the game got is right where it deserves based on what you're saying, I still think that the game is still regarded a lot, sometimes even more than VIII.

About the Last good FF Installment I based myself in what I always saw and hear in and out of the Internet. If you check any top 10 list at Gamefaqs where an FF game is named. IX is virtually always named as the last good FF.

About Sakaguchi directing FF games...

Well, the minute I saw Vagrant Story I fell in love. It was hard for me to finish it for myself, but it was rewarding. Then I played FFT and I was blown away by it's storyline and intuitive and fun gameplay. So when I heard that the same guy will be in charge of XII, I was owned by that. Of course Matsuno left the Development of XII at some point. But you can see that the Core, the Intention and the Ideas are there.

I don-t mind people saying ff9 as one of the best,because i do think it is easily one of the best ones.
I think one problem,is that personalities get very used,and this can get very grating when you can predict everything the game is going to throw at you.FFXIII had almost no surprises at all for me,because it is some recycled personalities you can see in the last 3 or 4 final fantasies.I understand its hard to make characters,but i also think that maybe they are trying too hard to appeal to just the mainstream,and not giving us old timers something we might enjoy.I admit,i-m kind of old compared to some gamers,and this is why my general appeal changed.As i am older,i wanted more mature type of setting rather than something only aimed at teens or pre teens.The idea for FFXIII isn-t that complex that you have to replay it over and over,because i got it on the first full playthrough.Yes i played it before almost complete,but i also skipped a lot of scenes because i already knew that a lot of nothing happened,and it seemed boring to have to sit through it for hours.

As for ff7:I have considered it overrated for at least 12 years now,maybe 8.
I may despise ff7,but i don-t think it is a bad game.What i despise about it,is the fanbase who can be very one sided about their game,and throw objectivity out the window.I never liked cloud as a hero,in fact:I think he is easily one of the characters i most dislike from final fantasy,except hope who i would love to put in front of a firing squad.I have never hated a character as much as i hate hope,even cloud doesn-t annoy me as much as hope.
Anyways:I think that sephiroth makes a better tragic hero than cloud,and would give you something to truly feel sorry for.Just think of it:Tragic past,he has issues of being used by the government and made to do stuff as a soldier.His very own father used him,would make a good scene.

Sephiroth:Dad,you used me
Hojo:Now wait a minute son,i was trying to make you all powerful
Sephiroth:No dad,you were trying to further your career,now DIE!!!!.

To be any kind of hero, he'd kind of have to cut out all that slaying of innocent people and trying to murder everyone on the entire planet though, wouldn't he? Its not really very heroic to murder whole towns of people and set them on fire - either that or serial arsonists are getting a very rough time from the judicial system...

But thats what would make it tragic.Imagine this vrykolas:Imagine you are experimented on,right? Now imagine you heard it was shinra ok?
You get veangance,and as the story progresses,you become more focused on your task in bringing him to justice.Also:take out that killing scene,and you got a tragic hero that is far more tragic than even cloud.
Imagine you play as sephiroth,and seph is a tragic hero.Then,you add some scenes like him thinking his mom is jenova,and finds out the truth and it becomes tragic for the main character,and you feel sorry for him.
This is generally speaking why i think sephiroth is more tragic than cloud.He went through a lot more,and has far more reason to complain than he ever would.

This is generally speaking why i think sephiroth is more tragic than cloud.He went through a lot more,and has far more reason to complain than he ever would.

On my personal view. You can't really say anything about Sephiroth's Past and childhood. So can't really say much about Who is more tragic than Whom. Becuase wether you like it or not. Cloud's Past sucked and sucked hard. And I still laugh at people that think that he's an depressed person that just complains. Play the game again, and if you really pay attention, you'll see one of the best lines played for laughs from Cloud rather than Barret or Cid (the real complainer in the game).

The Character of Cloud is brilliant because you can say a bunch of Crap, and you won't really define it properly. And that it's the main reason that it's such a great protagonist. Because it can easily blend with any type of RPG Player in the Identification of the Main Hero.

TV Tropes has an interesting view saying that the character is an Unbuilt Trope because in spite of being the first character that comes to mind when it comes to the typical JRPG angsty hero, he really isn't one of them.



Viewed backwards, Cloud in Final Fantasy VII is a deconstruction of a stereotypical spiky-haired angsty JRPG hero, in that while his serious issues are treated sympathetically, you are supposed to dislike him for his selfishness and shortsightedness, and his masculinity is constantly challenged by having him succeed in humiliating ways. His angst is frequently played for Black Comedy as well as for drama, and even his Anime Hair is criticised by the game. His quest to take down Sephiroth is alarmingly one-sided, to the point of a Stalker with a Crush-style obsession that even the other characters find disturbing. On top of all this, he's not even supposed to be The Hero; that guy (Zack) got killed, and now his sidekick (Cloud) is trying to take his place - he's literally role-playing a hero to escape from his own terrible self-esteem and inability to talk to girls. However, if Cloud wasn't the first stereotypical spiky-haired angsty JRPG hero, he is the first one people think of.

[QUOTE=topopoz;1918060]On my personal view. You can't really say anything about Sephiroth's Past and childhood. So can't really say much about Who is more tragic than Whom. Becuase wether you like it or not. Cloud's Past sucked and sucked hard. And I still laugh at people that think that he's an depressed person that just complains. Play the game again, and if you really pay attention, you'll see one of the best lines played for laughs from Cloud rather than Barret or Cid (the real complainer in the game).


I can though,as i played ff7 entirely,and part of crisis core.I know that cloud strife met zack fair,when cloud was still a newbie recruit who was pretty young and happy.He was excited about his mission when he first was in a vehicle with sephiroth inside.I remember that dream sequence of his,where he was kind of restless,while sephiroth was calm and collective.Sephiroths past was more tragic.Think of it this way:If you found out that your dad had been experimenting on your mom to further his career,and the government was taking advantage of your skills at combat to further their own agendas,you too would be pretty mad.This is a big deal as it adds a major reason for being tragic.
Clouds village was burned down yes,and zack died and aeris died.The death of an entire village,and possibly his mother was a big deal.The death of aeris,was medium to low on tragic meter.I still think that its worse for vincent valentine and sephiroth.Vincent valentine tried to do something about it,and was mutated and put inside a coffin.Sephiroth was abused by his crazy workaholic father who is a sick man who has no respect for life or his fellow man at all.Hojo crossed the line in ways that breaks the lines of morality.When you think about it,hojo is probably the most evil person in the original ff7 game,and possibly crisis core as well.He caused the whole event.If it wasn-t for hojo,the sephiroth event would have never happened.

The Character of Cloud is brilliant because you can say a bunch of Crap, and you won't really define it properly. And that it's the main reason that it's such a great protagonist. Because it can easily blend with any type of RPG Player in the Identification of the Main Hero.

Learn to Quote Properly... Having a hard time reading your posts throughly.

Anyway



I can though,as i played ff7 entirely,and part of crisis core.

I was only speaking for the Original Game. Crisis Core and the rest of the Movies/Compliation titles can literally bite me, as they were made in response on the fanbase only.



Think of it this way:If you found out that your dad had been experimenting on your mom to further his career,and the government was taking advantage of your skills at combat to further their own agendas,you too would be pretty mad.This is a big deal as it adds a major reason for being tragic.

Sephiroth was just a Time Bomb... And that doesn't make it more Dramatic. But by Definition it is Tragic though.
It was only a matter of Time that he got to Know about his Origins and to take advantage of his Proficiencies to use them to become a God Himself in a world where everyone except the Weapons maybe are weaker than Him.
As his Archetype of Character was a Pragmatic and Calculator Personality, the Logical Consequence was that.

But taking account of the Predictability of the Events with such Characters involved. The Drama or the Tragical part of his Character is only feeded or enforced by the Party of heroes and his Relation with Cloud, thus Sephiroth on his own does not provoke much.



Clouds village was burned down yes,and zack died and aeris died.The death of an entire village,and possibly his mother was a big deal.The death of aeris,was medium to low on tragic meter.

There bunch of other bad stuff that happened to cloud. Play the game and check his childhood.



I still think that its worse for vincent valentine and sephiroth.Vincent valentine tried to do something about it,and was mutated and put inside a coffin.

Vincent is easily the worst Character of the game along with Yuffie IMO. Hate Cait Sith all Along, but Reeve is a character that gets developed and sees the real stuff through his own very eyes and makes sacrifices for the Party for reasons of his own.

Vincent only reason for existence is to have a secret character that makes the girls squee over the shadowy and tragic past. Other than that, Vincent would've been a great character if they didn't stereotyped his aspect and played more deeply onto the character's Past Actions and Developments.
Because the Premise of the Character is a Great Hook. An Ex-Turk that served for an experimenation of a Mad Scientist because he fucked his Girlfriend. How awesome can that get. But it wasn't played well, and don't get me started on the most stupid and awful personality that the character got.
The attempt for making a Frankenstein failed here.



Sephiroth was abused

The Childhood was not exposed or Implied in the game. So you can't really know that. And the Traumas usually developed during this period of time.



Hojo crossed the line in ways that breaks the lines of morality.When you think about it,hojo is probably the most evil person in the original ff7 game,and possibly crisis core as well.He caused the whole event.If it wasn-t for hojo,the sephiroth event would have never happened.

Hojo Positivist view of Life was turned into an Obsession thus destroying his Humanity and converting him in the Mad Scientist Archetype of Character. His moral Compass is destroyed by his lust for Experimentation. He wasn't pointing to Further his Career.



Clouds village was burned down yes,and zack died and aeris died.The death of an entire village

The Death of an Entire Village...

Now which is more Tragic... 40 to 50 Human beings (not counting Animals), People that you knew them and spent your Childhood with them, your HOME destroyed.

Or having Issues because you've been used. After you're Conciouss about how strong you are. Problem Solved. Revenge on everybody.

Cloud Lost what he cannot bring back, and although he didn't liked Nibelheim because he was ashamed of his Past there. His chances to Rectify his Image are now scattered by the event. That is the Real Tragedy.

The degrees of tragedy in character's lives is immaterial - you are not a hero if you go around murdering innocent people and attempting... well what would you even call it - 'worldicide'? I am absolutely the wrong person to come crying to with regard to sob stories for anti-heroes and tragic villains etc. I have no sympathy for those who kill the innocent, and I certainly don't regard them as heroic!

Cloud is right to point out the utterly self absorbed nature of what Sephiroth is doing. What Hojo did to him (and just everyone else he ever meets) was a terrible crime. And there's no dount that Hojo is one of the most truly evil people in any FF game. Take that scene where Cloud visits Nibelheim and sees the 2 small shadows that are all that's left of the 2 kids who used to live there before Hojo got his hands on them. Cloud shakes his head sadly at the sheer cruelty of it, and it all speaks to the fact that along with Shinra wiping out Corel, murdering the people from Sector 7 etc, the world is full of miserable acts and cold hearted people.

People suffer all the time, and it all counts. Sephiroth considers himself special, that his pain counts more than that of other people. But it doesn't - his pain doesn't give him the right to take it out on everyone else, and especially not the innocent. He becomes a murderer, plain and simple. He kills Aeris when she was unarmed and praying for the salvation of the world. Its a cowardly, despicable act which no amount of sob stories about his past could possibly justify.

And just look at the aftermath scene if you want to see true pain and anguish. The reactions of Yuffie, Tifa and Barret when they pay their respects to the slain Aeris are particularly powerful. Or watch the scene where Dyne kills himself - he at least finally takes responsibilty for what he's done. Barret and Tifa both come to realise that their acts of terrorism were wrong, and that the innocent deaths they caused were punished with the death of their friends in Sector 7. You can't be a hero if you kill the innocent.

phong:
Why would there not be a FF15? FF13 sold outrageously well - it was a *massive* commercial success. The franchise is one of very, very few series that does equally well in both western and eastern markets. And the sequel has sold huge numbers in the West also, showing that FF13 has not been the 'series killer' that some were billing it as. Many people may not have liked FF13 in the West, but to say that the series is not doing well or is doomed is to ignore the facts completely.

Its also wrong to state that FF was big news up to and including FF10, but not after. FF was big (in the west) around FF7 and FF8, then cooled off considerably in the run-up to FF9. FF9 then failed to inspire any but the hardcore fans back, and it wasn't until FF10 (the first FF on a next gen machine, with truly next gen graphics and voice acting etc) that the series came back to prominence. I do agree that the series profile has slackened again since then (but not because of falling quality IMO), but that has not come at the cost of sales or creative ambition. FF12 and FF13 were nothing if not ambitious and creatively experimental. They were not the FF games you necessarily would have expected, and that alone makes them titles that I am very interested in.
I personally don't think the series is doing well and this is coming form a loyal fan who felt seriously ripped off by XIII. I don't think it's just facts we need to consider, we also need to take into account opinion, recent games etc. Take the first week of sales. I read previously that XIII-2 sold only 500,000 units as opposed to XIII's original 1.5 million and this is only in Japan. No doubt that is a massive drop, especially for one nation. It basically indicates how XIII truly failed to live up to eight years of production. Millions were anticipating XIII's release. If it weren't for XIV's release, XIII would be the most disappointing game in the entire series. Of course, fans who neglected the francise will come around to purchasing XIII-2, when the price lowers, that is. Why I say that post FFX lacked prestige is because it's true. XI was an online game and so was XIV. I didn't want to 'pay to play' so people like myself decided to disregard playing it completely. XII lacked character development, the story wasn't memorable and it's battle system encouraged you to be lazy with gambits. It just wasn't likeable. But hey, we're open to subjectivity. Basically when I said that the franchise isn't doing well or is doomed, I'm saying that they're losing a loyal fanbase. You could tell that XIII was targeting a wider audience when they decided to grab Leona Lewis with 'My Hands', which was an okay song. I'm convinced that Square-Enix is driven by commercialism. I'm sure that if the production followed their instincts with the story, they could've produced possibly one of the best of the series because the graphics were there and far out, the game was visually stunning. Point is, if millions are unanimous with the lack of soul XIII had compared to its predecessors, does that ignore facts? Future decisions of a XV would be driven by factors such as previous sales. Even though it'd take a few years, Square-Enix really needs to prioritise the story first before continuing further. If we get another XIII, I know I'm done with the franchise.

I actually enjoyed XIII-2. I loved the concept of time travel and many would agree if they played Chrono Trigger. It was a massive improvement from XIII because the graphic models were mastered, which immediately forced them to focus on the story and the gameplay which was what lacked in XIII. Though there are some lacking elements, I think that XIII-2 provided some relief and closure to those who were left empty by XIII. They really considered the fans' input. One of the things that push my buttons with this game is the level of difficulty and lack of direction with it came to collecting fragments. Sometimes you couldn't complete an entire map until you were in another world and completed that one. There is also that ridiculous fragment that involved slot machines. Possibly the worst part of the game.

IMO, FFIX was the most enjoyable because it wasn't depressing if you know what I mean. Zidane was one of the happier protagonists compared to Squall/Cloud, nobody was killed from what I remember and there were a variety of characters. Everyone was different. Great characters, amazing musical score, typical but a trademark story. However, my favourite has to be VI. If VI was released on PSX with 3D models, everyone would be raving on about a VI remake.

Hello to you, phong (sounds like a Bond villain name...)

Figures can be interpreted in any number of different ways. You said that FF13-2's sales were down on FF13's sales. Fair enough. But then you say it proves that FF13 has hurt opinion. But FF13-2 is an offshoot in the same way that FF10-2 was to FF10. The vastly reduced budget and 'non main series installment' factor were well known. Its the same in all series like this - the numbered installments (or in this case the main installments) are the ones that draw the crowds in, offshoots, pesuedo sequels, reimaginings, etc etc never do as well (particularly when the main series games are such massive sellers). FF13 was extremely well received in Japan, so apathy after FF13 is not the reason for the smaller sales - the antagonism towards FF13 is purely a Western thing.

And your statement leaves off the part where even with these lower sales, it was the 5th best selling game of the year - and it only came out in December! That's a fantastic result in anyone's book, surely? Be careful not to cherry pick the headlines and leave out important details when you do so - people seize on 'facts' like these and its important that the whole story be told, as opponents of the series will never willingly bring these things up themselves when they can just throw out a supposedly damning headline. The game is selling extremely well in both markets (its been number 1 over here since it came out).

I'm not going to stand here and say FF13 has not put people off (though again, its overwhelmingly a Western thing), but we have to be careful not to oversimplify things. Final Fantasy has only recently started doing direct sequels at all. Some fans still refuse to forgive FF10-2 for its supposed crimes against the original (not me though, I vastly prefer FF10-2 to FF10. Plus, these two games (FF13 and FF13-2) had nothing like equal budgets and development times. People knew this, and if they were sensible managed their expectations accordingly. The sales in Japan have been extremely good as I have pointed out, which shows that just because they didn't rush out on day 1 to buy it in the same tidal wave as they did for the 'Main' installment, they did eventually buy it. But expecting a game with lower development time, budget and weight of expectation (because everyone gets excited for a truly 'new' FF), to sell as well as the main installment is unrealistic in the extreme.

I totally agree about that slot machine fragment. The most evil aspect of the game by far... Still, the fragment collecting is generally good fun, and you'd expect to have to do a certain amount of hopping around in time, wouldn't you?

And FF9 wasn't dark?! It has a *massive* bodycount! Lindblum - destroyed. Alexandria - destroyed. Burmecia - destroyed. Cleyra - destroyed. Terra (a whole world, let's not forget) - destroyed. That's thousands, if not millions of people! Does your bloodlust know no bounds that you consider this a happy, lighter experience where nobody dies! (I'm joking - I assume you mean nobody from the party dies, right? And It is light hearted fun, but there's a lot of darkness in that supposedly cute game...)

If you wanna hear my thoughts on this, here is my video on it
Is Final Fantasy 13 really that bad? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5oB5PZtsII)

I hope this doesn't break any rules.

Hello to you, phong (sounds like a Bond villain name...)

And FF9 wasn't dark?! It has a *massive* bodycount! Lindblum - destroyed. Alexandria - destroyed. Burmecia - destroyed. Cleyra - destroyed. Terra (a whole world, let's not forget) - destroyed. That's thousands, if not millions of people! Does your bloodlust know no bounds that you consider this a happy, lighter experience where nobody dies! (I'm joking - I assume you mean nobody from the party dies, right? And It is light hearted fun, but there's a lot of darkness in that supposedly cute game...)

FF6 did that too.It had a lot of body counts in the world of balance,and yet you had humorous tidbits with kefka to keep the game balanced.Then you get to the world of ruin,and the whole thing changed dramatically.You see a dying world with plants dead and dead animals.

FF9 had some pretty dark moments too.I think that kuja's death was pretty sad,because in the end he had a moment of clarity and acceptance of death.I felt like he finally got over it,and he died when i didn't want him to die.
One thing that is pretty dark,is that beatrix absolutely destroyed burmecia.She didn't have to destroy it completely,but she did.Cleyra was pretty extreme as well.

You apologise a lot for the villains, you know.

Kuja killed millions of people - maybe even tens or hundreds of millions depending on what Terra's actual population was when it was destroyed (I can't remember if the people were all in cryo, and where they were being stored, but if any were still on the planet...). So I couldn't care if he didn't want to die - neither did all the people he butchered. It doesn't matter what what done to him - it doesn't give him a right to commit mass murder!

I feel sorry for the legions and legions of murdered victims he leaves in his wake - I don't waste my pity on jerks like him.

[QUOTE=Vrykolas;1921423]You apologise a lot for the villains, you know.

Kuja was also changed when you killed him.He was in a murderous rage,and he ended up accepting death.

On the other hand:I am not forgiving beatrix for what she did to burmecia.There is no good excuse to do that.
Still,on the point:You got to admit that those scenes were pretty sad in death counts.I mean:how many people died in burmecia and cleyra alone? that is without also adding the black mages that died as well as the people in alexandra,and the planet that zidane came from.

Yes, I was very moved by all that death and destruction - but I have no tears to waste on Kuja. Not only did he not stand up to Garland, he went even further and just started massacring everyone he saw. Garland at least was doing it for the people of Terra - Kuja just kills people because he wants to, and wants power.

Just because a villain says he's sorry, that's alright, is it? Because of him, the world (the one that's left!) has been utterly devastated and the death toll is staggering. And what was he doing as all this happened? He was laughing at people, and mocking their grief. Why should I waste any sympathy on a wretched creature like him? His actions are uniformly despicable and petty, and he'd mercy from me if I was in Zidane's shoes.

FFXIII was amazing and I love it. Not ashamed at all to say it. To all the haters....keep on hating.

FFX and FFVII are definitely next though on my favorites list when it comes to FF.

FFXIII was amazing and I love it. Not ashamed at all to say it. To all the haters....keep on hating.

FFX and FFVII are definitely next though on my favorites list when it comes to FF.

Some people dislike the game,and think its not a good game for good reason.
I for instance,think that the gameplay was boring and too easy.dragon quest 8 was easy,but it had its moments in fun too.The gameplay in dragon quest 8 had a lot more too it than FFXIII,which actively took out things which are fun instead of putting them in.For instance:Exploration:Do we really have to sacrifice that much exploration? 2:The whole system for using attacks is terrible,it needs a revision.I don't know what pissed off the gamers and designers so much,that they actively hate random encounters and turn based rpgs? 3:The characters are retarded.Lightning is a drama queen,and so is hope and snow.They all whine together and cry the big cry.See:In lost oddyssey,it is annoying,because i don't actually know the character who dies.4:The fetch quests:Couldn't tey add more? seriously,the overworld is so boring.All there is to do,is 50 quests and level up your weapons.4:No shops:Horrible design.5:No towns:why?

FF7 is an alright game,but i still think it is massively overrated and gets far too much praise.There are games ff7 takes from,and it gets the credit as if it were to invent it,like killing off the main protagonist.Something ff4 did,and something ff5 did.
2:FF7 wasn't really in 3d in the actual game footage,only in the cgi videos.And it was during a time where they should have probably just made it in 2d,and made the next one the first 3d.1997 was too early for the first 3d,because it wasn't perfected yet.
3:sephiroth and cloud and tifa and aeris are the 4 most overrated characters in an rpg.more towards sephiroth and cloud being the most overrated rpg characters of all time.They could have been better,and people put them on a pedestal regardless of their flaws.

Your opinion that FF13 is too easy is something I have not seen from anyone else. Square admitted that they had to make FF13-2 easier precisely because they received so much feedback from gamers who thought the game was too hard. Personally, I think only the bosses like Cid and Barthandelous are truly hard, but I do consider the game noticeably harder than the other FF games.

FF8 is harder because of its fiddly system and how hard it is to upgrade weapons etc, but the others (I'm only counting from FF6 onwards) are all much easier IMO. It stll doesn't make it a hard game (just a harder game). But very few RPGs are genuinely hard. The Shin Megami Tensei games are probably the only truly hard RPGs.

FF8 is one of the easiest games in the series, though. It's incredibly easy to break the game.

FF8 is one of the easiest games in the series, though. It's incredibly easy to break the game.

This.

What about how easy it is to become completely immortal? nothing can harm you with those hero attacks,and squall spam alot much? spam spam spam limit break spam.
ff6 was also pretty easy,but it had its moments that added some interesting spots,like:The floating island.The floating island is probably one of the harder moments.ff4 was also harder than ff6 and ff7 in most areas,cept it didn't have any secret bosses that were truly hard,and it wasn't that hard either.

FFXIII:Most fights in the middle to end are very simple fights: press L and R and change between paradigms,and press xxxxxx and enemy is dead.You get full health so there is no need to even think about potions.The open world isn't even hard either.There are maybe like:2 enemies that are truly difficult:The malboro guys,and there is an annoying enemy that is hard,when you are aiming for the final area.There are some annoying enemies,like those motorcycle guys,but they aren't hard.I was able to get through all the levels without too much problems.

Now ff tactics is hard.FF tactics is one hard motherfucker.That game doesn't fuck around,it wants your head on a plate.That part where you go for weigraf,and find out you can't rest in between fights,is a sign that you better be sure you are ready for multiple fights,because some fights don't even give you rest.Then again:Strategy games seem to present more difficulty because of sometimes unfair situations.You are sometimes put in a position in ff tactics that enemies move a lot faster than you,and hit more often than you.The result is getting killed more often than not.

FF8 is one of the easiest games in the series, though. It's incredibly easy to break the game.

This...

VIII gameplay, though can be fun, is incredibly stupid and exploitable.



Now ff tactics is hard.

Actually no, you just haven't figured how to break the game.

I agree that FFIV is hard.

Well, I didn't find FF8 easy at all. I didn't exploit the game though - it was long enough ago and I was young and callow enough that I just played it normally. I still find the Junction system incredibly fiddly, and having to stock magic to put in stats, level up GFs to even be able to put stuff in those stats, having to trawl obscure locations to get obscure items just to be able to upgrade your weapons at all... Its much more hassle than any of the other FF games IMO.

I also consider Ultimecia the hardest final boss of any of these games (except maybe Orphan with his instant death spam, but that's just cheap). Properly levelled and junctioned, she's easy enough, but if not, she's murder. Compare that with Sephiroth, Kefka, Necron, Jecht etc etc who you can beat in your sleep, even if your party is rubbish. Necron's HP in particular are absolutely laughable for a final boss.

[QUOTE=Vrykolas;1943397]Well, I didn't find FF8 easy at all. I didn't exploit the game though - it was long enough ago and I was young and callow enough that I just played it normally. I still find the Junction system incredibly fiddly, and having to stock magic to put in stats, level up GFs to even be able to put stuff in those stats, having to trawl obscure locations to get obscure items just to be able to upgrade your weapons at all... Its much more hassle than any of the other FF games IMO.

I also consider Ultimecia the hardest final boss of any of these games (except maybe Orphan with his instant death spam, but that's just cheap). Properly levelled and junctioned, she's easy enough, but if not, she's murder. Compare that with Sephiroth, Kefka, Necron, Jecht etc etc who you can beat in your sleep, even if your party is rubbish.

Reminds me of those fucking balrons in ultima4.Oh god do those motherfuckers piss me off.

Also:Orphan hard? all he does is cast death on 1 character over and over.All you have to do is keep reviving 1 character and keep spamming attacks.I know this would give you 0 stars supposedly,but its really easy of a fight if you do this.

The thing is fiddly.There are many things you wouldn't know how to do without a guide of some sort.This is why i recommend you try to read a guide about how to play the game,because otherwise:You will be not playing correctly.
After having played it once,i found out that this game has little replay value,unless you want to try to be severely overpowered early on,and totally rape the enemies.
FFX had its difficult moments too.For me,one of the hardest if not hardest,was killing yunalesca.

You need to stop breaking your quotes, Nostalgia gamer. It makes your posts hard to read sometimes.


Well, I didn't find FF8 easy at all. I didn't exploit the game though - it was long enough ago and I was young and callow enough that I just played it normally. I still find the Junction system incredibly fiddly, and having to stock magic to put in stats, level up GFs to even be able to put stuff in those stats, having to trawl obscure locations to get obscure items just to be able to upgrade your weapons at all... Its much more hassle than any of the other FF games IMO.

I also consider Ultimecia the hardest final boss of any of these games (except maybe Orphan with his instant death spam, but that's just cheap). Properly levelled and junctioned, she's easy enough, but if not, she's murder. Compare that with Sephiroth, Kefka, Necron, Jecht etc etc who you can beat in your sleep, even if your party is rubbish. Necron's HP in particular are absolutely laughable for a final boss.
When I first played FF8 I didn't understand the systems and thought it was pretty hard. Playing it again a couple years later (I would have been around 12, I guess), I thought it was all pretty easy to figure out and from there it was incredibly easy to exploit.

Nos. you got lucky against Orphan. EVen with 3 Seraph's Crowns, your leader isn't immune to his death spell. He can decide to just keep spamming death on your leader. He'd done it to plenty of people - hence the reason people find him hard, because there is no defence against it that is 100%. Just because he didn't do it to you, doesn't mean anything other than you being lucky. Nobody has any trouble with his regular attacks or super atacks - its just that death spell. Do you really think people got that far into the game and didn't know how to revive their team members?! Its because he casts on the leader of course.

You went to Orphan with your Crystarium maxed, which is something most people don't do. Your playthrough is hardly a fair comparison. Any boss is easy when all your characters are maxed!

Fight:
But you've hit the nail on the head right there - if you just play it normally, FF8 is a pretty brutal game at times. Because you won't have upgraded your weapons (because come on, without a guide you would never find some of those materials) etc etc. You need to actually put some time in to work it all out, which skills your GFs should learn, who should have which GF(because its very easy to find yourself in the position where giving each character all the GFs needed to boost all stats, will mean giving them GFs who hate them etc etc). And some of the crucial ones are insanely hard to find (get to Disc 4 without Tonberry King and Doomtrain and you can't buy items or upgrade weapons anymore, and both of those GFs require a guide to find IMO).

When I played FF8, I was just getting into JRPGs. Pretty much the only other one I'd played was FF7. I was playing for the story and didn't give a damn about systems etc. So I just burned through, and when I reached foes like Adel and Ultimecia, I just couldn't compete.

Vrykolas,the boss is cheap,but not that hard overall.Also:I grinded when i fought zeromus,and you were expected to grind a little as well to fight x death.

And you'll notice that when I said Orphan was difficult, I said that exact thing - that he was just cheap, rather than actually hard. So what's this declaration, like you're saying something I don't already know? Reading people's posts properly, would save a lot of time.

My point is:This game had a few artificial difficulty moments:When you first encounter the first boss,its very unfair.The first boss uses instant 1 hit kills on you,but most fights are pretty easy in this game.I had a little trouble at the end of chapter 12,but that was also because i hadn't grinded enough.There were enemies who did really annoying things near the end,like cast curses.

Even the adamantoise are just boring and easy,they just take forever to bring down,because you have to kill their legs so they don't hurt you.After that,you are forced to kill their body.Oh and:Death spell sucks.it may insta kill sometimes,but that spell only works like 10% of the time.

This game is a lot of grinding,and if you grind relatively well,then you won't die,that is assuming you don't do something incredibly stupid,like attack the adamantoise head while its legs are still intact.
Most of the difficulty i had,was either from not grinding,or i didn't have the upgrade to become more powerful for the moment.When you first arrive to grand pulse,you are going to be weak for killing most creatures,that is:If you hadn't grinded to max out early before chapter 13,and even then i think your crystagen expands after defeating odin.I think that the most difficult boss i had in the game,was cid.Cid was a royal pain in the ass in the first encounter,because he changed his abilities when you changed,plus he can debuff your whole team.The other cid fights were more annoying than actually hard.

That's like saying 'The game isn't hard, except when it is'.

That's like saying 'The game isn't hard, except when it is'.

No,what i am saying is that there are only a few hard moments,the rest is easy.
Having a few difficult moment doesn't equate to a hard game all the way through.By that way of thinking,ff7 must be incredibly hard just because of the only two more difficult bosses:Emerald weapon and ruby weapon.And even ruby weapon isn't too tough.

I really hate this game. I won't go too much into it since I just posted a mammoth argument against it in another thread but I'll just say that while some other games sometimes lack in certain aspects, storyline, character development, gameplay, there is always something that makes up for it. Take XII for example, the story wasn't great, neither was the character development, but the world map, the gameplay, the sidequests were amazing and well more than enough to make up for the disappointing story/characters. In XIII there was no good points at all. The story was ridiculous, the characters had no development and were bland as hell, there were no npcs, pretty much no sidequests, no world map, no world at all for that matter, a shit weapon system, an even worse battle system and a level system that does the same as the battles - everything for you. There is no good to make up for the bad and that's why I dislike it.

Xx..xX

A lot of people didnt like this game because there were no shops and no spaceships to explore like in the other games in the series..but tbh, if you have a dodgy tattoo and a death sentence on your head, you aint gonna want to piss about in spaceships and go shopping!!

People "hate" it because it came with the name "Final Fantasy" and a lot of people thought it didn't live up to that name. Like say, Final Fantasy VII (a little overrated IMO, but still a great game nonetheless)

If Square Enix published it with an entirely different name people would have been forgiving of the game.

I loved FFXIII, I think the battle system was a fresh change of the ATB, and only being able to play as one character in battle pissed a lot of people off, but they fail to realize how hard it would have been to control all three characters at that pace (although I think being able to switch control would have been nice, so you wouldn't have to restart the battle if you died)

Sure the game didn't "pick up" until about 20 hours in, but that doesn't mean it still wasn't exciting up to that point.

I also think barely being able to deviate from the path was fridge brilliance. Think about it, you are short on time before you essentially die, you need to fulfill your mission. Are you going to gallivant around or are you going to try to save yourself in a timely manner?

I don't hate it because I find it silly to dislike a video game so much that you waste energy hating it. However, it's not my favorite game in the franchise. It was a very pretty game to be sure but that didn't make the gameplay all that more interesting for me. The lack of proper exploration really killed it for me and even though you get more freedom after 20 hours of playing it still was too late. My interest by that point in the game had dropped signifcantly. Maybe one day I will finish the game but for now it's put on the backburner.

To me, it's just the combat system.

Ever since VII, the combat system has sucked compared to the original I-VI.

At least the gameplay was more engaging in the 90s.

FF6 had arena fights, optional summons, and a good leveling up system.
FF7 had a truckload more of mini games, plus 2 optional bosses.
FF8 at least allowed you to explore, and had secret mini bosses, but i hate triple triad and the junction system.
FF9 system was cool too.You learned abilities through items, and had class systems like ff4.
FFX even has some sidequests, albeit extremely tedious and annoying.

FFXIII had none of this.Fans who love exploitation don't get that, only tedious level grinding that is less rewarding than ff8 and FFX.
Story and characters suck.I can't stand hope, and wish i could side with barthandalus to kill hope, snow and lightning.I can bear the others, even vanille, but not hope,I refuse to buy FFXIII -2 if hope and lightning are in it, and i think they are.

I agree with Nostalgia gamer that the Final Fantasy games before XIII had a lot more playable content to it and more flexibility in exploration, but the paradigm battle system in FFXIII was an interesting change that I liked, along with the music.

However, one thing that really annoyed me was that if the leader of your party was KO'ed, your entire game was over...despite the fact the other members of your party were still alive. They fixed that in FFXIII-2, but it was a very strange and irritating nuance to have in its predecessor.

Another thing that kind of annoys me, is how after battle you are full health.I remember stocking up on needles in FF1 for the nes, and antidotes, because there is a cave full of poisonous enemies, and negative stats stayed after battle.The monsters do look good though, and the world design is very well made.

I still prefer FFX though, just with there was nore variety in enemies.

I always buy a new Final Fantasy for mostly one reason : I love the graphics !
Final Fantasy XII had a good story line,(maybe was it due to some good characters) but I was not very interested in the story of the XIII.(I found no real characters in it)
And what is a game without a good story ? it's just fights and more fights.
So I was a bit disappointed by the XIII but I surely don't hate the game.Just found it difficult to play (I was never a very good player :))

I just started to play it and I felt bored by it, it's quite beautiful, it has outstanding graphichs and the music is superb... but it's too lineal...

I understand what you mean by too linear,GreatKenji,but there should be some nice parts coming in the game.At least,the battle system is more flexible than before.Hope you'll have fun !

@DoeJean : I hate this game for multiple reasons: Far too linear path, unlikable and unmemorable characters, music subpar when compared with other FF's... I could go on (Like I have earlier in this thread... and have drawn a lot of hate for my own feelings on this game), but instead I'll link to a review of this game :

Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)

It's very rare for myself to agree 100% with a review, but I do with this one.

Thanks for the review link ,Dart Revan ! I rarely laughed so much...and agreed

I kinda understand the hate for 13 but can't see much reason behind the hate for 13-2 which I liked more than 13.

I personally don't like 13 because of the fact it's so linear and the battle system.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the storyline, and the music and atmosphere are AMAZING. I will play through it (and eventually 13-2 & Lighting Returns) Solely based on those facts.

But I'm really unhappy with the battle system, I thought when it was coming out that it would utilize a real-time battle system like Kingdom Hearts, or revert back to the ATB system, but no instead we got...THAT...THAT "Press A to win" bullshit.

I was not happy. In all honesty, I think with a change in the battle system, I'd be a lot happier, that's my only complaint really.

I kinda understand the hate for 13 but can't see much reason behind the hate for 13-2 which I liked more than 13.

This. Totally this. I think XIII-2 just gets hate because it's linked to the one before it. My feelings for XIII and XIII-2 and polar opposites, I hated XIII a lot, the characters didn't inspire me to care, the storyline was rubbish imo, the gameplay, the linearity, the lack of world, npcs, sidequests. There was nothing in XIII for me to like, in XIII-2 however, everything I just mentioned being missing from XIII was what I loved in XIII-2. The characters were far better, the storyline was interesting and had me in tears, there are sidequests aplenty, a world to interact with, the battles and character progression is far superior, and I like building monsters too. What's not to like? Even the music is great in XIII-2 unlike it's predecessor.

And that raiden look alike whiny brat named hope.Good job in surpassing the bad square enix.You actually made a character more hated and annoying than quina, cait sith,yuffie,tidus and vaan.

I don't actually hate tidus or vaan, but cait sith does annoy me to no end, and i don't like quina at all either.Rinoa is also another character that annoys me.

What exactly didn't people like about FF13-2? I wasn't really that impressed with the locations but that's about it. The best thing for me was the narrow cast. Not having to switch between characters was a big plus for me and offered a better depth and understanding of them. I really hated in 8 how we got to constantly control different characters and FF13-2 was a good redemption for that.

To me it was a great game, IMHO.....
(sorry, I did't see the date)

This was my first FF Game and it was a 130h journey. I get the hate but i think people just overhyped themselves.