This is something that i have thought about before but it just came back to me.

I remember playing XenoGears, which was one of the greatest games i have ever played. But one thing that did irk me was the Christian symbolism in the game. While it made for a great story i couldn't help but feel that the whole thing was taking a stab at religion. Since that game i have noticed that a lot of epic RPG series have had at least one game where the major part of the plot involves a christian-esqe or monotheistic religion, which is part of some evil conspiracy resulting in the discovery that said deity is not real, or in all truth evil and the cause of all the suffering in the world. (FF10)

I have always pondered why this is such a popular plot used in video games. Is there a anti-God/anti-religion agenda in video games? Or is it just a convenient plot device?

Comments or opinions.

I think it's a just convenient for good (or in some cases, bad) story-telling. But that's just me. I have played games and watched movies where religion is involved and have enjoyed them being a non-believer myself. If it will make a good story out of it then I think people will use it.

even within the same series there are positive examples though !

a monotheist/panentheistic god is basically the whole idea behind the lifestream, and the game certainly wasn't negatively portraying that sort of belief at all-- quite the opposite really.

that being said, video games in particular have a demographic that leans towards primarily people who are male, intelligent, and young. all of those demographics are more likely to be atheists. i don't think they're doing it deliberately but it doesn't surprise me given that.

There's a christian gaming site I am a member of although I have lost the addy due to my old computer dying.
Christian symbolism in games doesn't bother me.
It's just another aspect of the game.
If I knew how to get to that site I could ask the fellow who runs it although I doubt his answer would be any different than mine.

Honestly? I believe they use institutions that you could realistically imagine as being EEEEVIL. That yields three big possibilities for most of the countries videogame devs target- organized monotheistic religion, the corporation, and your typical nasty dictatorships (facist/communist/whatever).

An easy shocker. And prolly written by guys in their 30s still coasting off college philosophy.

Xenogears has no god, I think. It has beings that look like gods to the protagonists who view them from from a lower dimension. Deus of course was just a glorified weapon. Extremely sophisticated, but man-made.

The only game that really bothered me was Grandia II. The twist of that game was highly depressing to me since

God IS dead. God (Granas) is killed by the Devil (Valmar) over 10000 years before the game's events and his death covered up by the church. Ultimately, the protagonists defeat Valmar, ridding the world of all gods. Atheism wins.

What I'm really wondering is when some of the more popular religions around the world will allow their pantheon of holy figures to be brutally eviscerated by some made up meat head like Kratos.

In some SMT games you get to fight God personally. With your fists.

You can fight the Hindu god in the DDS games too.

What I'm really wondering is when some of the more popular religions around the world will allow their pantheon of holy figures to be brutally eviscerated by some made up meat head like Kratos.
Well, Guan Yu is somewhat considered a god to some of the Chinese, and yet they didn't mind the countless Dynasty Warriors game Koei churns out, evident by the fact that there's Chinese localized versions of the game in various parts of Asia.

Remember the deitys in most RPGs are supposed to define the belief, religion (or lack of) of the characters in the game. Of course most of them are based on the ones in our major religions, but you can't copyrite the name of a god, so there is no law against it. Judging by the games I have played, I would say that there is absolutely no malicious intent behind it.
Some people would say that it is irreverent to
fight God personally. With your fists. and probably they're right, but in most cases these RPGs are just trying to create the ultimate outworldly 'big boss'.
Having said that, there are many such issues concerning video games and their apparent lack of respect towards sensitive topics. Religion being one and war being another. The game Call of Duty- Roads to Victory, centers around WW II (as you all probably know). Many people may find this game extremly dissrespectful to the many men who truely died fighting in this war. Making a video game out of it may seem very insensitive and gouche.
So where do we draw the line as to what is or isn't acceptable in the gaming world? At the end of the day, the decision lies with us, the individual, on whether or not we wish to play games such as these.

I have always pondered why this is such a popular plot used in video games. Is there a anti-God/anti-religion agenda in video games? Or is it just a convenient plot device?

I find that many people who claim to Christians subconsciously don't want to believe in God/religion/Christ because it's an inconvenience. Think of the public reaction over the Da Vinci Code, whose plot centered around (from what I gather) the possibility of Christianity being a sham. Instead of being rebuked as an insult to religion, it became a number one bestseller. What does this tell you about society?

I, for some reason, tended to find FFX to be sort of a bible-bashing game. Yes, I know that Spira's religion is centered around a summoner who created a freaking gigantic monster who goes around terrorizing the world, and summoners pray for spirits of the dead to take animate form in the bodies of aeons, but there are some quasi-similar elements (prayer and the idea of "atonement for our sins" come to mind). Maybe it's too big of a stretch, but that's just me.

theres a gameboy game where god is the last boss, and you have to destroy it.
of course, thats in japan, here it was renamed "dark lord" or something like that. i need to find the name of this game again.

Was it Final Fantasy Legend? At the top of the tower you get to fight the Creator. I always liked that twist because the game kept building up the 'shadowy great power pulling the strings behind the scenes' and you couldn't get any bigger than God for the final battle. I also enjoyed the wistful ending of leaving the last door unopened.

Personally I don't mind religion bashing in games, unintended or intended. All the games I have played have never taken an atheist approach and I prefer separating God and man made religion.

yes thats the one.
i mixed up the name from the villian of the last bible, also on gameboy. its called revelations over here.
and i hardly played legend, so bear with me

theres a gameboy game where god is the last boss, and you have to destroy it.
of course, thats in japan, here it was renamed "dark lord" or something like that. i need to find the name of this game again.

Lol, I'd like to play it. It's no surprise the censorship committee would jump all over that one; people get more offended when you diss God than when you call them an idiot or something.

Seriously I don't give a damn.

JRPG from 94' to say 2003 was the trend of bashing Catholic beliefs.

But whatever man, I don't have any issue, I'm not the religious type of guy. I rather enjoy it.

FSITO said it, In MegaTen games you fight god with you bare fists. That's awesome. xD

FFT & Vagrant Story kindly touches this topic too. In a phrase from a certain Character From Vagrant Story.

Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your Church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead God. ...Or perhaps you, too, are a sheep, Samantha. A poor little lamb, bleating for your faith as though it were milk of the poppy. Yet mark your savior well, for he is one of the demons you so fear, Samantha.

It's because the games are from Japan. Japanese people obviously don't have any particular reverence for religion.

WTC is correct. The vast majority of the God bashing comes from Japan, where belief certainly in the Christian God is weak.

Western games, films, TV meanwhile frequently imbue your lone hero with a messiah quality. The last hope for mankind, who comes in the hour of need, to drive back the darkness etc etc. It certainly not unheard of for characters to 'become God' at the end, or at least transform into some divine being.

How much do you want to bet that Mass Effect 3 will work out that way? Ultimate Creator figure is controlling Reapers. Reapers are unstoppable, so you go to kill their leader (or save him from imprisonment etc etc). Either he calls off his mechanical dogs or you bump him off and take his position.

on a positive side. you ARE god in actraiser.

It's because the games are from Japan. Japanese people obviously don't have any particular reverence for Christianity.

Better.

I'm not insulted in most cases myself, unless it looks like they are blatantly attempting to insult religion. I think i've seen a few games like that.

It's because the games are from Japan. Japanese people obviously don't have any particular reverence for religion.

There isn't really any organised religion as such in Japan. The closest would be Buddism or Hinduism, and Buddism doesn't actually have a god/ deity.

This is something that i have thought about before but it just came back to me.
I remember playing XenoGears, which was one of the greatest games i have ever played. But one thing that did irk me was the Christian symbolism in the game. While it made for a great story i couldn't help but feel that the whole thing was taking a stab at religion. Since that game i have noticed that a lot of epic RPG series have had at least one game where the major part of the plot involves a christian-esqe or monotheistic religion, which is part of some evil conspiracy resulting in the discovery that said deity is not real, or in all truth evil and the cause of all the suffering in the world. (FF10)
I have always pondered why this is such a popular plot used in video games. Is there a anti-God/anti-religion agenda in video games? Or is it just a convenient plot device? Comments or opinions.

Because most game makers are smart enough to no believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, & the Easter Bunny...so why not forgo other mythic beings?

Also:
FFT:WotL WAY worse than G.

The religion in games doesn't really bother me. The only game that actually got on my nerves with it's religion was Dragon age. The references to Christianity were so clear that you'd think the writers heads fall of if they'd bother using their imagination. You don't get points by talking the bible, changing few words and sticking it in a game.

It's because the games are from Japan. Japanese people obviously don't have any particular reverence for Christianity.Better.

There isn't really any organised religion as such in Japan. The closest would be Buddism or Hinduism, and Buddism doesn't actually have a god/ deity.

Because most game makers are smart enough to no believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, & the Easter Bunny...so why not forgo other mythic beings?

Well, that's certainly not a dickish way to put it /s

its still the truth, though.

Well, that's certainly not a dickish way to put it /s
Yes, yes it is...and I stand by it.

Yeah ok

Whether he's being a dick or not, he (mostly) has a point.

I say mostly because it isn't necessarily fair to equate God or gods to Santa Claus, but yeah.

I wouldn't say that they don't believe in anything, they just have a completely different out look and approach to it then we do. I would guess that this is why they may seem to us to be so unaffected by it all; we don't understand their view points on religion and such like. That's just a theory of mine.

Whether he's being a dick or not, he (mostly) has a point. I say mostly because it isn't necessarily fair to equate God or gods to Santa Claus, but yeah.
I am being a dick, sorry, but I am anti-religion.
It's nothing against the OP, but I find all hate groups offensive.

I think it is.
1) They're a collection of various myths into one monogamous entity.
&
2) There's no REAL proof.



OT:
Religion is a really good target because of all the power it has and the fancifulness of most myths.

I am being a dick, sorry, but I am anti-religion.
It's nothing against the OP, but I find all hate groups offensive.

I think it is.
1) They're a collection of various myths into one monogamous entity.
&
2) There's no REAL proof.



OT:
Religion is a really good target because of all the power it has and the fancifulness of most myths.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There is no 'dickishness' about that lol.

However I would say that religion, by it's very nature has to be a belief (fanciful or otherwise) there can never be any proof. But for some people this is a fantasy they need to stop them from getting depressed over that all famous question: 'Why?'. Also people need to cling to such myths to escape the drudgery of life, there is too much science and hard fact in our lives these days, imo. It leaves us little room for imagination, beliefs and fantasies, and takes away a lot of wonder and awe from the world. Religion is supposed to give some of this back . I see no harm in it, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Having said that, I wouldn't be a follower of any organised religion myself. I think that a bit of sceptism is neccessary these days, as long as you don't become jaded.

10k years ago religion didnt exist.
therefore, religion is man made.

Founds something against the whole 'don't compare god to...'

Tanis has a point.

What kind of God would allow such an ugly fatfuck such as him to co-exist with the rest of us?

Tanis has a point. What kind of God would allow such an ugly fatfuck such as him to co-exist with the rest of us?
The same god that's cool with genocide, infanticide, and slavery...as long as 'he' says it's fine.

;)

Tanis has a point.

What kind of God would allow such an ugly fatfuck such as him to co-exist with the rest of us?

Are you Ok in the head?

The same god that's cool with genocide, infanticide, and slavery...as long as 'he' says it's fine.

;)

You have a point.


Are you Ok in the head?

Are you?

Are you?

Perfectly.

But I certainly have my doubts about you. You seem to have a screw loose or something. I don't know what it is, but you do tend to randomly insult people for no real reason what so ever.


What kind of God would allow such an ugly fatfuck such as him to co-exist with the rest of us?

I mean that was such a nasty, unwarrented statement. Tanis never said a word to provoke you man, so why the bullshit? What, nobody loves you in this world so you take it out on everyone else?



The same god that's cool with genocide, infanticide, and slavery...as long as 'he' says it's fine.

God has nothing to do with that, that's humanity's fault.

But I certainly have my doubts about you. You seem to have a screw loose or something. I don't know what it is, but you do tend to randomly insult people for no real reason what so ever.

Get used to it.

As for my views on religion: It has always existed and always will as long there is no concrete proof for everything that has happened in history. Religion (in the way that we know it today) has not always existed, but mankind's complusive nature to create an omnipotent father-figure to worship and praise for all the things going well in their lives (and hastily forgive all the things going wrong, but that's a story for another time) always has, in one form or another. Every religion is man-made, faith is not. You can convince yourself that the rock in your back garden is the creator of the universe, and it would be just as true as any other form of religion. Everybody believes in something, whether they like it or not, whether they realise it or not.

I like to think that technology has advanced enough that, even though we haven't yet explained everything, we will eventually. Believing in an omnipotent creator of the universe is and always has been a flawed logic, but the subject of faith in general is something that more games need approach,preferably with a little bit of sophistication.

A real bitchy topic...

I like to think that technology has advanced enough that, even though we haven't yet explained everything, we will eventually. Believing in an omnipotent creator of the universe is and always has been a flawed logic...

I used to think this too; that advances in science will eventually lead us to understanding everything. However, technology and religion are both human attempts to make sense of the same thing.

What exactly makes you say believing in an omnipotent creator is a flawed logic? Disregarding all religious qualities ascribed to God, I don't think the very definition of God is absurd or illogical. God is outside the universe (time, space and matter) because it created time, space, matter etc. Of course you can then say that something that isn't governed by causality is illogical but your notions of logic are based on assumed axioms...

Eh, I feel like I'm talking out of my ass here - personal beliefs are just that.

I used to think this too; that advances in science will eventually lead us to understanding everything. However, technology and religion are both human attempts to make sense of the same thing.

What exactly makes you say believing in an omnipotent creator is a flawed logic? Disregarding all religious qualities ascribed to God, I don't think the very definition of God is absurd or illogical. God is outside the universe (time, space and matter) because it created time, space, matter etc. Of course you can then say that something that isn't governed by causality is illogical but your notions of logic are based on assumed axioms...

Eh, I feel like I'm talking out of my ass here - personal beliefs are just that.
It is illogical to believe in something without evidence.

You shouldn't really equate technology (or rather, the scientific method) to religion, either. The scientific method bundles up a bunch of evidence and makes a conclusion. Religion makes a conclusion and tries to find evidence to support it.

I don't know what it is, but you do tend to randomly insult people for no real reason what so ever.

Talk about a late bloomer.

It is illogical to believe in something without evidence.

You shouldn't really equate technology (or rather, the scientific method) to religion, either. The scientific method bundles up a bunch of evidence and makes a conclusion. Religion makes a conclusion and tries to find evidence to support it.

You're right - a great difference between believing and knowing is the underlying reasoning. However, a god that man can perceive is no god. I was rather trying to say that science, technology and all man does is done within the closed system of the universe. Furthermore, the scientific method is based on inductive experimental evidence (of course, I'm not saying disregard what the evidence says because there might be something to the contrary that hasn't got to our attention yet). Deductive logic of the mathematical kind gives better ground for knowledge but as I said, axioms and corollaries are assumptions we have to make.

with science, though man made, we have done much than we could ever do if we were still being dominated by the churches.
i highly doubt we would have even discovered another planet (aside from earth).
remember galileo.

Galileo was religious, along with many (most) other great thinkers throughout history. Science and religion are not incompatible. In fact, the churches have been in the past the leaders of the scientific community. *Real* science that is, not simply theology.

There is a problem here though and I recommend watching Neil deGrasse Tyson's speech about the god of the gaps to understand why. Basically, being religious does not make you an idiot. What it does do, however, is make you more likely to give up and say, "God did it" when you reach your limits.

i never said galileo wasnt religious, anyone who knows anything knows this.
i used him as an example because he did a lot of discoveries that contradicted some "holy scriptures" and thus was trialed.

if they were sure there was nothing outside of earth aside from the moon and the sun because their god made earth the center of the universe, then explain the other planets.
no, "god made them too" is not an excuse, when i was told god made earth only.

Somebody kill this thread...

Or at least let's get back to topic. VIDEO GAMES!

i never said galileo wasnt religious, anyone who knows anything knows this.
i used him as an example because he did a lot of discoveries that contradicted some "holy scriptures" and thus was trialed.

if they were sure there was nothing outside of earth aside from the moon and the sun because their god made earth the center of the universe, then explain the other planets.
no, "god made them too" is not an excuse, when i was told god made earth only.
That is a mess of a post, but I'll attempt to respond.

I think I've told you before that religion is not un-changeable. The Bible isn't the word of God, more like the understanding of God. People will just say (eventually, they weren't so receptive to change back then), "Oh, well God made those planets too."

I am pretty sure nobody has ever said ever that nothing exists in the universe other than the sun and the moon because Earth is at the centre. That doesn't make sense. Anyway, other planets were known about by the time of Galileo and I presume they were aware of stars. The only thing Galileo said that went against the church at the time was how the Earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa.

Somebody kill this thread...

Or at least let's get back to topic. VIDEO GAMES!

Stop being boring, you two.

What's so funny is that this thread i started reminded me of another argument/discussion i had with my uncle a month ago. I was commenting on how the belief in the scientific theory of the Big Bang has similarities to faith in a deity. I tried my best to explain it to him more then 10 times but he kept repeating the same dumb answer. FAITH it's all about faith in God. Somehow he just didn't understand what i was saying. Then i realized i was dealing with a person who barely graduated high school in the late 70s so i was wasting my time trying to explain something to him that was obviously over his head. But i can sum up my side of discussion easily:

1. No one can prove the Big Bang happened, but most scientists belief that it the best explanation out there even though the theory has countless holes in it.

2. The Big Bang theory is in just about every school science book that has been printed in the last 50 yrs. It's touted as fact by most people in this world, even though it still just a theory.

3. The amount of 'faith' and 'belief' put into the Big Bang Theory is similar to the unsubstantiated faith in God, even though there is no proof that God exists either.

Dah... It's not about being boring. It's about, Science vs Religion discussions are endless & this topic was about Gods on Video Games. Not personal or general Beliefs.

Who's being boring?

It's hardly science vs religion. It's one guy poorly arguing about science and religion being incompatible while others say this is not the case.

Even if it were a science vs religion discussion though, and it was endless, it would be more entertaining than the thread since it mostly ended up being a wankfest over Japan.


2. The Big Bang theory is in just about every school science book that has been printed in the last 50 yrs. It's touted as fact by most people in this world, even though it still just a theory.
I wish people would stop saying "it's just a theory" because it makes no sense at all gee whiz.

http://www.notjustatheory.com/

There is good reason to believe the universe is expanding from a central point. There is evidence that suggests that. That evidence is pretty substantial compared to the complete lack of evidence you have in religious faith.

Whatever label you use, it's the same shit.

Blah Blah Science Blah

Blah Blah Religion Blah

BLAH BLAH BLAH??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

but you prove stuff with SCIENCE!

I was waiting for that Neg!

Sorry for the delay, I just kinda skim this thread.

the image to end all relgion

But you don't like "unnaturals..."

as long as they are not near me, i give two fucks what they do.
its a price to pay for the perfect world.
of course, a perfect world would mean everybody gets a mate of the opposite sex, no more this disease will consume humanity

:fabulousbatman:

Yeah um, my point was more a suggestion to not be a dick when you think you have a point. Respecting other people's views, that kinda thing.

Yeah.

Not a rehash of who thinks they're right

The same god that's cool with genocide, infanticide, and slavery...as long as 'he' says it's fine.

;)

God didn't make the world this way, WE did.

---------- Post added at 01:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 AM ----------


This is something that i have thought about before but it just came back to me.

I remember playing XenoGears, which was one of the greatest games i have ever played. But one thing that did irk me was the Christian symbolism in the game. While it made for a great story i couldn't help but feel that the whole thing was taking a stab at religion. Since that game i have noticed that a lot of epic RPG series have had at least one game where the major part of the plot involves a christian-esqe or monotheistic religion, which is part of some evil conspiracy resulting in the discovery that said deity is not real, or in all truth evil and the cause of all the suffering in the world. (FF10)

I have always pondered why this is such a popular plot used in video games. Is there a anti-God/anti-religion agenda in video games? Or is it just a convenient plot device?

Comments or opinions.

Well one of the big things that probably added to this greatly was Neon Genesis Evangelion which used Judaism & christian themes throughout the series. Hideaki Anno has said officially that if he knew the series would have been so popular over seas he wouldn't have used something based on any real culture and just made up stuff.

Ya see like others have pointed out here a lot of these games are made on Japan. Now, what Eva did with the one god of Abraham was the exact same thing Disney does in their fairy tale movies, or Spielberg & Lucas did with Aztics in Indy 4, or Twilight did with Seattle Indian's culture; appropriated it to be used in whatever way they wanted to fit in the story they're telling.

---------- Post added at 01:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 AM ----------

When you think about it, American and English TV & movies haven't been the most sensitive and caring when it comes to representing the savage lesser races so should we really be at all surprised chinamen don't paint Jesus in the best light?

[QUOTE=Tom Toonami Tunes;1553726]God didn't make the world this way, WE did.[COLOR="Silver"]
Not if you're part of the major world religions.
;)

Yeah um, my point was more a suggestion to not be a dick when you think you have a point. Respecting other people's views, that kinda thing.

Yeah.

Not a rehash of who thinks they're right
You should respect people, not their views.

Dah... It's not about being boring. It's about, Science vs Religion discussions are endless & this topic was about Gods on Video Games. Not personal or general Beliefs.

Who's being boring?

He's right you know. The way the current way things are going, this topic will continuously be rehashing pointless arguments based on whether or not a certain set of beliefs should exist or not. The point was actually to discuss whether or not religion should be used in video games; is it blasphemous or not, that kinda thing.
This thread could get really ugly if it continues this way.

That was not the direction the argument was going, but whatever.

Religion, their ideologies and the gods of monotheistic religions should be discussed and viewed in even more video games. Not allowing video games to do so would be censoring the right to express oneself through your work. If people can paint paintings where Jesus is giving flowers to little children they should also be allowed to paint paintings of Jesus being murdered by mutant bees; it's about using a theme to further help expressing your point/what you want to share with others. XenoGears, SMT I, II, Devil Survivor and Digital Devil Saga II, Grandia II, La Pucelle etc. are some of the games with, in my opinion, the best stories I've ever seen in a video game. They take an element many people believe in that is somewhat controversial and spins it into beautiful tales that convey a very special atmosphere. One might say that (literally) slaughtering God in SMT II is a bit controversial but I say it's just a point of view from the other side of the road. And I love that other side.

And don't start talking shit like this thread leading to pointless arguments about beliefs, when someone asks if religion should be used in video games (while adding they feel a bit uncomfortable with it) it will lead do this sort of bickering and that's part of the argument. It's the most interesting part of it. You should be more upset with people posting one-liners and stupid images everyone has seen a thousand times already.

It's part of my agenda, bub ;)

Then I'll bite and say your agenda sucks, bub.

EDIT Actually I recall why I never visit FFS. After some viewing and reading around I remembered all the mods are total poop

Religion, their ideologies and the gods of monotheistic religions should be discussed and viewed in even more video games. Not allowing video games to do so would be censoring the right to express oneself through your work. If people can paint paintings where Jesus is giving flowers to little children they should also be allowed to paint paintings of Jesus being murdered by mutant bees; it's about using a theme to further help expressing your point/what you want to share with others. XenoGears, SMT I, II, Devil Survivor and Digital Devil Saga II, Grandia II, La Pucelle etc. are some of the games with, in my opinion, the best stories I've ever seen in a video game. They take an element many people believe in that is somewhat controversial and spins it into beautiful tales that convey a very special atmosphere. One might say that (literally) slaughtering God in SMT II is a bit controversial but I say it's just a point of view from the other side of the road. And I love that other side.

And don't start talking shit like this thread leading to pointless arguments about beliefs, when someone asks if religion should be used in video games (while adding they feel a bit uncomfortable with it) it will lead do this sort of bickering and that's part of the argument. It's the most interesting part of it. You should be more upset with people posting one-liners and stupid images everyone has seen a thousand times already.

Wow...I like the way you stated this! Nice and to the point.

Religion, their ideologies and the gods of monotheistic religions should be discussed and viewed in even more video games. Not allowing video games to do so would be censoring the right to express oneself through your work. If people can paint paintings where Jesus is giving flowers to little children they should also be allowed to paint paintings of Jesus being murdered by mutant bees; it's about using a theme to further help expressing your point/what you want to share with others. XenoGears, SMT I, II, Devil Survivor and Digital Devil Saga II, Grandia II, La Pucelle etc. are some of the games with, in my opinion, the best stories I've ever seen in a video game. They take an element many people believe in that is somewhat controversial and spins it into beautiful tales that convey a very special atmosphere. One might say that (literally) slaughtering God in SMT II is a bit controversial but I say it's just a point of view from the other side of the road. And I love that other side.

Brilliant! I really couldn't have said it better. I feel that with all this 'political correctness' shit that many people aren't able to express themselves fully for fear of 'discriminating' or being 'predudice' against another group. Talk about walking on eggshells!
I would agree that religion should feature more in video games, it does (most times at least) make the storyline a lot more rounded.


And don't start talking shit like this thread leading to pointless arguments about beliefs, when someone asks if religion should be used in video games (while adding they feel a bit uncomfortable with it) it will lead do this sort of bickering and that's part of the argument. It's the most interesting part of it. You should be more upset with people posting one-liners and stupid images everyone has seen a thousand times already.

Sorry, my bad :(. I just thought that the science vs religion thing was kinda off topic. Maybe it wasn't, whatever.

If people can paint paintings where Jesus is giving flowers to little children they should also be allowed to paint paintings of Jesus being murdered by mutant bees

Personally, I refuse to play a game I find to be too heretic (the only one so far being SMT 2).

Personally, I refuse to play a game I find to be too heretic (the only one so far being SMT 2).

But the game is far from heretic by default? Spoilers for the game follows!

You are the Messiah at the start of the game, the champion for God himself. Even though you don't initially know that since he isn't introduced until the very end of the story I'd say the game is far from heretic at first. If the problem is the Messians and the way of how they treat things then I'd dare say Grandia II is way more heretic in how it portrays religious cults/factions.

Let's not forget about the "black Mary and Jesus" painting.

There are so many heresies in SMT 2 I don't even know where to begin, and it goes a lot deep. I'm not really discussing the whole thing here, but teaming up with Lucifer to kill god is definitely heresy.

I'm not saying anything like "if you play this game your soul will burn in hell!" and yes, I realise this is just a game, and the author probably thought "hey, lets make something different! what if god was bad and the devil was good?" and not "let's spread the anti-christ word and corrupt as many souls as we can! muahahaha".

I just didn't feel very comfortable playing it so I stopped.

I'd gladly team up with Satan to kill God.

I'd gladly team up with Satan to kill God.

I'ld say that you'ld have a substantial army behind you too! lol :D

Personally, I refuse to play a game I find to be too heretic (the only one so far being SMT 2).

i don't know what SMT means but if I started playing a game that was blatantly insulting God, and portraying Christians as evil, twisted bigots and monsters, i would stop playing it.

i don't know what SMT means but if I started playing a game that was blatantly insulting God, and portraying Christians as evil, twisted bigots and monsters, i would stop playing it.

It might be Shin Megami Tensai Nocturne 2: 3D Turbo Pikachu editon.

Religious people can be so silly :3

Wow portraying Christians as evil is getting popular these days, I've still can't believe that there are still fanatics.

i don't know what SMT means but if I started playing a game that was blatantly insulting God, and portraying Christians as evil, twisted bigots and monsters, i would stop playing it.

That is Shin Megami Tensei.

Basically in most games of the serie you are given a chance to side with one of 3 'factions': Chaos, which is the demon's side, which values freedom above all, in a Hobbes kind of freedom, everyone for himself, if you can't protect your belongs, you don't really owe them (including your life :p) . The law side, on the other edge, is god's and the angels side, which is over protective and basically strip humans from their free will in order to mantain peace. Finally the neutral side is the 'human' side who wants to take things back to normal and often portrayed as the 'good side'.

I've played only a few SMT games so far (Devil Survivor, Strange Journey, Nocturne and II) and I enjoyed all of them except for 2, because, IMO, it overdid it. :p

About the "religion sucks!" thing. Let's be honest, it's actually "people sucks!". It seems to me that atheist people are becoming as self-rightous and arrogants as the religious people they criticize. Is modernims really so good? Thanks to it we had both Nazims and Communims (both were anti-religious and praised science, progress, reason), which killed waaaaaaaay more than al qaeda, the inquisition or whatever religious group you may point out. Also, modernity promotes equality? Really? The whole concept of a racims was created in moderm times (XIX more especifically) and still influence nowadays (though it's disguised now). I could point many other things but my english is too crappy for that :(.

My point, though, is not "let's go back to medieval times and burn the heretics!". My point is anything can be twisted by people and used as an excuse for whatever they want to do. Be it religion, science, reason, ideology, etc.

You have a very valid point.

Nice post Bignic...

Nazism (Germany) and Communism (USSR) were both filled with religious, mysticism, and/or superstitious, crap.

Most racism was perpetuated by religious groups to justify their actions.
Admittedly there were things like the 'Skull Test', but unlike religion that was cleared up, proven false, and treated as BS by the mainstream scientific community.

On the other hand, 'The Mark of Cain' is being non-white, or 'colored', so it's cool if ya'll enslave and treat 'the heathens' like trash or liberate their souls via forced labor, trampling their long held culture, ect.


Nice try, but learn more.

Communism IMO wasn't filled with mysticism & religious Crap...

90% of it are critics to the capitalism.

EDIT: Tom's Toonami Toons, Cheers for your new Avatar pic. =D

Communism IMO wasn't filled with mysticism & religious Crap...
90% of it are critics to the capitalism.
I edited my post to be more clear.
I was focusing on the USSR where there's loads of 'if you hold this tree branch you can find leylines' type of crap.

I edited my post to be more clear.
I was focusing on the USSR where there's loads of 'if you hold this tree branch you can find leylines' type of crap.

Gotcha...

It seems to me that atheist people are becoming as self-rightous and arrogants as the religious people they criticize. Is modernims really so good? Thanks to it we had both Nazims and Communims (both were anti-religious and praised science, progress, reason), which killed waaaaaaaay more than al qaeda, the inquisition or whatever religious group you may point out. Also, modernity promotes equality? Really? The whole concept of a racims was created in moderm times

There's nothing really stopping people from disliking religion, Nazism, communism and racism all at the same time for completely different reasons. Finding fault with one specific thing does not count as a defense of a criticism of something completely different, it just means you get to learn why two things suck instead of one.

Also, in Wonder Project J you get to pray to turtle statues.

Religion has shed more blood than it has brought peace.

EDIT: Tom's Toonami Toons, Cheers for your new Avatar pic. =D

I was waiting to post it with the utmost antici...............PATION!

Religion has shed more blood than it has brought peace.

Thinking on that point, you begin to wonder what the fanatism and hype is all about don't you?

God creates video games, god destroys video games, god creates man, man destroys god, man creates video games.....

Yeah, maybe the odd video game here and there might give God a nice dose of ego battering. Makes sure that His head doesn't get too big for his neck to support.

Makes sure that His head doesn't get too big for his neck to support.

That's impossible, God can just take the form of a braceosaurus. 'Course my dad said that flat heads have real small brains:/

God creates video games, god destroys video games, god creates man, man destroys god, man creates video games..... videogames eat men, women inherit the earth

ban all modernims

Nazism (Germany) and Communism (USSR) were both filled with religious, mysticism, and/or superstitious, crap.

Most racism was perpetuated by religious groups to justify their actions.
Admittedly there were things like the 'Skull Test', but unlike religion that was cleared up, proven false, and treated as BS by the mainstream scientific community.

On the other hand, 'The Mark of Cain' is being non-white, or 'colored', so it's cool if ya'll enslave and treat 'the heathens' like trash or liberate their souls via forced labor, trampling their long held culture, ect.


Nice try, but learn more.

Socialism, communism, and even the National Socialist Party (Nazis) are somewhat colored wrong by our perceptions as Americans. I can't give a great, long dissertation, so here is the short and skinny.

Nazis: The National Socialist Party was in all truth, just another form of socialism. Hitler was the cause of the rise and fall of his own political movement. He used racism to placate the people and create a common enemy that he could point to blame the ills of the country on. He then used war to grow the economy after he realized he couldn't legislate economic growth. And his final mistake was basically attacking the entire world. The Nazis would have done just fine if they had avoided war and the persecution of the Jews. The funny thing is that Hitler was a devote Catholic. He went to church, never cheated on his wife, paid his tithes in church and requested that the Catholic priests pray with the soldiers before they went off to war. So religion was accepted for the time that it existed in Nazi Germany. I have no doubt though that if the Nazi government had been able to continue it would have either eliminated religion or created a state religion.

Socialism: to put it simply, socialism is the usage of government bureaucracy to make everything fair, while still giving people the opportunity to live as they please. In socialism the belief is that any and all problems can be solved via legislation and the courts. The will of the people is subverted via laws, policy, and a welfare/nanny state that propagates the belief that any problem you personally have IE poverty or racism can be solved with laws and social engineering. The problem that socialism ultimately suffers from is the fact that it constantly appeals to whatever "minority" will support it unquestioningly and then destroys the drive of the people to succeed and do better by offering cradle to grave entitlements, and taxing the wealthy and entrepreneurial with a level of taxation that makes upward movement in society almost impossible unless one is granted a boon by the government or unless you are of a protected minority that the government supports all the way. What finally kills this form of government is the fact that they spend more then they take in in taxes and eventually self destruct due to going broke and having a economic collapse. In socialism religion and all its freedom is allowed. The government controls religion by using propaganda such as political correctness and the tax code to force compliance.

Communism: Communism is the extreme of socialism. In communism the government as a whole transforms the will of the people into the will of the state. (government) In order to make everything fair and thus make everyone happy the government must have complete control of peoples lives via bureaucracy and military force. In communism the good of the whole is all that is important, while you still have some individual freedom, this freedom is only allowed so long as it does not disrupt the state. In communism no one owns anything, the state owns all and does so for the good of the people, and to be fair. Religion is frowned upon in communism because it encourages individualism, and makes a deity the ultimate authority in all things instead of the state. In order for religion to exist in a communist society the religion must extol the virtues of the state as it would for a deity. It must preach that the State is blessed by the deity, and that the deity agrees with the state in all things.

So where is this all going exactly?

Organised Religions have ruled with an iron fist just as much as any of the governments/leaders in any of the movements above. At the moment religious practices are on the decrease because people are becoming jaded and are seeing through the crap that they were told to follow blithely by their 'betters' in times gone by.Similarly, people are also turning against their governments/leaders because they have also let them down. Therefore there is no restraint or concern in the use of religious or governmental 'slamming' in video games today. For example: FF VII, Advent Children, Key of Heaven and Tekken 6 (to a certain extent) take a stab at corrupt governments. Whereas games like Grandia, Gaia and all those mentioned before, use religious referrences in their storylines (and in most cases not in a flattering way). This is because there isn't much reverance attached to either sector any more. But this is mostly due to the fact that people are just sick and tired of being dictated to by corrupt organisations. Why respect a lie?

So where is this all going exactly?

Organised Religions have ruled with an iron fist just as much as any of the governments/leaders in any of the movements above. At the moment religious practices are on the decrease because people are becoming jaded and are seeing through the crap that they were told to follow blithely by their 'betters' in times gone by.Similarly, people are also turning against their governments/leaders because they have also let them down. Therefore there is no restraint or concern in the use of religious or governmental 'slamming' in video games today. For example: FF VII, Advent Children, Key of Heaven and Tekken 6 (to a certain extent) take a stab at corrupt governments. Whereas games like Grandia, Gaia and all those mentioned before, use religious referrences in their storylines (and in most cases not in a flattering way). This is because there isn't much reverance attached to either sector any more. But this is mostly due to the fact that people are just sick and tired of being dictated to by corrupt organisations. Why respect a lie?


Because we don't know the truth. When there is no truth all you have is lies.

Because we don't know the truth. When there is no truth all you have is lies.

Then how do you know it's a lie if there is no truth to compare it too? For all you know that 'lie' might be the truth.
No, I think there is a truth, actually many fundemental truths that have been covered up with ideals such as law, 'fairness and equality', political correctness, religion, etc.
People are realising the transparency of such lies and are resenting those who fed them that crap in the first place. Even if all they had were lies, it still isn't any excuse to believe or respect them. That would be a cop out; the only reasons why someone would settle for a lie is because a) they were too lazy to seek out the truth themselves; b) they didn't care enough to find the truth or c) it suits them too believe such lies (eg. global warming; how many people want to believe in the fact that our current life style is destroying our most basic resource?)

If we don't know the truth it's only because we aren't looking hard enough. Besides someone must know the truth in order to cover it up with a lie, why bother other wise?

wherever good (science) exists, evil (religious bullshit) will also exist.

wherever good (science) exists, evil (religious bullshit) will also exist.

So you're a genius who's smarter than Plato, Aristotle, Aquineas, Descartes, Kant, Kierkegaard, and many others? You're telling me that one day, when you're lying on your deathbed, you'll take comfort in "knowing" that there was no reason, meaning, or point to your existence, because that's all bullshit, right?

Let me tell you that the only thinkers who seriously propose that religion is bullshit (i.e. logical positivists) are fucktards like A.J. Ayre who can't deal with the possibility of something higher than what they can see with their eyes and hold in their fucking hands. Even Nietzsche believed in something higher. Go curl up next to your Ayn Rand and leave your opinions to yourself, because the greatest thinkers who ever lived, and the greatest texts ever written, were rooted in metaphysics. Just because you can't experience it doesn't mean it isn't real or true.

I deal with the here and now. I can care less about there being a god or gods.

To each their own.

I deal with the here and now. I can care less about there being a god or gods.

There's an obvious problem with this statement, but I'll leave it with Death's Head's statement and just let it be.

it seems you acknwowlegde the unprovavble existance of a fictional being, olde.
so of course youre gonna go apeshit on those who know otherwise

It seems you don't acknowledge the unquestionable presence of the unknown/unknowable.
So of course you're gonna be a dick to those you do.

So you're a genius who's smarter than Plato, Aristotle, Aquineas, Descartes, Kant, Kierkegaard, and many others? You're telling me that one day, when you're lying on your deathbed, you'll take comfort in "knowing" that there was no reason, meaning, or point to your existence, because that's all bullshit, right?

Let me tell you that the only thinkers who seriously propose that religion is bullshit (i.e. logical positivists) are fucktards like A.J. Ayre who can't deal with the possibility of something higher than what they can see with their eyes and hold in their fucking hands. Even Nietzsche believed in something higher. Go curl up next to your Ayn Rand and leave your opinions to yourself, because the greatest thinkers who ever lived, and the greatest texts ever written, were rooted in metaphysics. Just because you can't experience it doesn't mean it isn't real or true.

Agreed!!! I also like to think that science isn't the last door to reality.


I deal with the here and now.

I totally support this kind of view. It's a nice & honest way to live.


To each their own.

Agreed.

Where this issues concerned, I'm on the fence - and quite comfortable with that...! :P

Where this issues concerned, I'm on the fence - and quite comfortable with that...! :P

Hope you brought a cusion 'cause it can get quite uncomfortable up their.


So you're a genius who's smarter than Plato, Aristotle, Aquineas, Descartes, Kant, Kierkegaard, and many others? You're telling me that one day, when you're lying on your deathbed, you'll take comfort in "knowing" that there was no reason, meaning, or point to your existence, because that's all bullshit, right?


I deal with the here and now.

To be quite honest I too agree with both the above statements even though they're completely contradictory.
Like topopoz said:

Agreed!!! I also like to think that science isn't the last door to reality.
There is many who take comfort in/ need to believe in this. I would be one such person. Sometimes explaining everything down to a T can take away much wonder and awe in the world. It's beauty becomes deminished.

However topopoz also makes the point:

I totally support this kind of view. It's a nice & honest way to live.
I would also be inclinded to believe that this is indeed an honest way to live. Take each day as it comes and live it to the full. Not much wrong with that.

All in all though, I think ultimately DH has it correct:


To each their own.

The only game that really bothered me was Grandia II. The twist of that game was highly depressing to me since

God IS dead. God (Granas) is killed by the Devil (Valmar) over 10000 years before the game's events and his death covered up by the church. Ultimately, the protagonists defeat Valmar, ridding the world of all gods. Atheism wins.


I loved this game, but I had a -BIG- problem with that as well. Its why after awhile I stopped playing through it.

I just hate that its almost always a rip off of an existing religion, and its almost always negative.
Grow up, not all religious people are evil, conspiring twits, Gaming industry. ;~;

I've not played one game that has shown any religious things in a positive light, except maybe Zelda, which still disturbs me.

I don't think religion is evil. I just think it's stupid.

An easy shocker. And prolly written by guys in their 30s still coasting off college philosophy.

Xenogears has no god, I think. It has beings that look like gods to the protagonists who view them from from a lower dimension. Deus of course was just a glorified weapon. Extremely sophisticated, but man-made.

The only game that really bothered me was Grandia II. The twist of that game was highly depressing to me since

God IS dead. God (Granas) is killed by the Devil (Valmar) over 10000 years before the game's events and his death covered up by the church. Ultimately, the protagonists defeat Valmar, ridding the world of all gods. Atheism wins.

What I'm really wondering is when some of the more popular religions around the world will allow their pantheon of holy figures to be brutally eviscerated by some made up meat head like Kratos.

I like the 2nd one. the answer, not the game. never played it.