By that I mean like the "No _____" challenges, where you beat the game without doing something which is a key factor like no using items or no leveling or no learning/using skills, or in RPGs using only one character, etc. Ever done that sort of thing?


The only thing I can think of that I did a while back that's somewhat of a challenge, was beating the first Tomb Raider on all these conditions:
-No health packs
-All pickups in the whole game
-All kills in the whole game
-All secrets in the whole game
-Pistols ONLY

So umm... yeah.

I'm looking to try that in the later volumes, though I think I remember there being enemies that pistols have zero effect on... or not?

I did a Ramza-only FFT "challenge" a couple years ago. Unfortunately, the only challenge was getting through that first battle in Gariland. The Squire/Math Skill/Excalibur combo is just too broken.

Since then, I've never bothered with such "challenges."

because i tend to not limit myself, i do several challenges, on several games.


RESIDENT EVIL directors cut:
enchanced mode, jill, knife only.

resident evil 3:
knife nemesis to death on every occasion possible.

castlevania SOTN:
naked alucard challenge (nothing equipped).


these are some of the challenges i have completed.

working in:

ff 1 all black mages (i suck with black mages)

POKEMON ONLY LEVEL 100 CHALLENGE

I pick Samus (as in NOT Zero Suit) in Brawl every now and again.

thats not a challenge..
ive seen several kick ass players with samus.
quite in fact, ive seen them with all players.
myself pwning everyone with mr. G & W

I beat Final Fantasy VI with only three characters after the apocalypses, but was pissed off at the ending. Believe me, it was hard too. Finding all the characters and beating the game gives you a much better ending.

thats not a challenge..
ive seen several kick ass players with samus.
quite in fact, ive seen them with all players.

So have I, but the fact remains that Samus is most likely going to be low-mid tier throughout Brawl's lifespan and is a challenge to win with compared to high-tier characters like, say, G&W.

no way...
tiers????
TIERS???
tiers dont exist.
its all fanmade to determine which character one is good and bad at, nothing more.
there are people who have mastered every character (ie the random button).

but lets not start a discussion on that which does not exist

Well, I tried a "Level like mad" challenge on FFVIII. Kinda fun if you ask me.

Well, I tried a "Level like mad" challenge on FFVIII. Kinda fun if you ask me.

Try that + no junction.

I've thought about doing an "Initial-Equipment, No-Accessory, No-Limit Break, No-Item, No-Escaping, No-Physical Attack, Command Materia-Only (excluding Double-Cut, Throw, Morph, Slash-All, Mime, and W-Item)" challenge for FFVII. But I thought it was too hard.

TIERS EXIST MAN

man i play as sonic TO LOSE

tiers dont exist.
its all fanmade to determine which character one is good and bad at, nothing more.

I'll believe that when Yoshi wins a big tourney.

no way...
tiers????
TIERS???
tiers dont exist.
its all fanmade to determine which character one is good and bad at, nothing more.
there are people who have mastered every character (ie the random button).

but lets not start a discussion on that which does not exist

Tiers exist. If they affect your character choice by making you pick only top/highest tier characters you're a fucking loser, though.

Unless, of course, you're looking to play competitively and maybe win a little. ;)

I'll believe that when Yoshi wins a big tourney.

well, to bad you missed it, in mexico DF there was a tourney of brawl 2 days before its official release in club nintendo's office (club nintendo if the official representative of nintendo in mexico).

and guess what? the winner of the tourney was a yoshi user.

but if you only consider US. tourneys because they are the only ones that count, then sorry.

Unless, of course, you're looking to play competitively and maybe win a little. ;)

Doesn't make you any less of a "loser." Not a loser in games but a loser as in someone who is pathetic and not worth spending time with and probably isn't very fun to be around.

Also, CATASTROPHE, do you know what a tier list is? It sure as hell isn't a measure of characters' power. It's basically a measure of how often a character wins tournaments, based off of STATISTICS. It's a bit more complicated than that I think but it boils down to being a chart of who seems to win the most, not who seems to be the best character (are the two related? that's up to you to personally decide).

CATTY-boy, Clearly, you don't know what a big tournament is. I'd be willing to bet that items were on and most of the unlockables were still locked.

Wattson, I do believe that some matchup info is taken into consideration for tier lists, as well. Right now, since Snake only has one bad matchup and has won like a bajillion tourneys, he and MK are top tier. By quite a bit, depending on who you listen to.

Catatrophe tiers exists because not each character is an exactly clone of every other character.

You see it is like saying a BMW is no better than a Corolla or something.

BMW.

There still hasn't been an "official" tier list released yet, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sure, every sign is pointing to Snake and MK being the top right now, but those are just in speculatory lists. An actual tier list is based on data, not on percieved match-ups. Unless you've found something I haven't?

Also I should mention that I have no problem with people playing the game (say, Melee), and thinking "fuck yeah I own as Fox and I love playing as him so I'll main him" or something similar. It's the people who think "fuck yeah the internets says Fox is the best so I will main him" that are losers.
^_^

Doesn't make you any less of a "loser." Not a loser in games but a loser as in someone who is pathetic and not worth spending time with and probably isn't very fun to be around.

Also, CATASTROPHE, do you know what a tier list is? It sure as hell isn't a measure of characters' power. It's basically a measure of how often a character wins tournaments, based off of STATISTICS. It's a bit more complicated than that I think but it boils down to being a chart of who seems to win the most, not who seems to be the best character (are the two related? that's up to you to personally decide).

and what tournaments count?
because i can organize a play and call it a tournament.

and cyanure, of course there were items.
excluding items is GAY.
and because the game was NEW, everything was locked, except the characters (for some odd reason).

An actual tier list is based on data, not on percieved match-ups. Unless you've found something I haven't?

Like you said, there isn't an "official" tier list yet, but all the data I've seen thus far has pointed squarely at Snake and MK being top tier, simply because they've won so many tourneys. At this point, it's the High/Mid tiers that are beginning to be fleshed out. Or so I've read, at the very least. :D


It's the people who think "fuck yeah the internets says Fox is the best so I will main him" that are losers.

Ah, fair enough. I started mucking about with Marth b/c he's supposed to be really good, and after getting used to him, I play him with some regularity. Same with Tink, but I'd be more willing to call him a "main."


and what tournaments count?
because i can organize a play and call it a tournament.

Generally, the more people that are in a tournament, the more weight its results are going to have. You can throw a tourney and call it whatever you want, but if there's only like, eight people who nobody has ever heard of, your results aren't going to have much of an impact on the metagame as a whole. Now, if your circle of eight people play together a lot, your tourney'll have an impact on that circle, just not the metagame as a whole.

CATASTROPHE TIERS EXIST

BECAUSE SONIC SUCKS

lol

and cyanure, of course there were items.
excluding items is GAY.
and because the game was NEW, everything was locked, except the characters (for some odd reason).

Except that just about every major tournament since Smash 64 has turned items off. You clearly don't know a thing about competitive Smash, so you're better off dropping the subject, lest you make an even larger fool of yourself.

CATASTROPHE TIERS EXIST

BECAUSE SONIC SUCKS

lol

Ey! >:O

Aww, poor Swami's main is getting bagged on. I feel kind of bad, so I'll say something good about Sonic.

He has a good side taunt.

Ah. Now my conscience has stopped nagging me. Sweet!

He's only one of my mains, tyvm. :kirbyfly:

I know. I was just trying to be funny and give Sonic a backhanded compliment in the process.

Having items off in Smash Bros greatly unbalances the game and is a sin I hope will disappear now that exploding crates and stuff can be turned off. Several characters in Melee based some of their efficiency on items, and those were killed by items' exclusion. Mewtwo in particular was destroyed because items were always off in tourneys. The characters are balanced with items in mind. The fact that items are random is no excuse - lots of characters have random attacks anyway, such as Peach and Mr. G&W, and it takes skill, not randomness, to put items to good use. Overpowered stuff like Hammers I can understand though - but those can be turned off.

In Brawl, it seems that Smash Balls will get kicked out of tourneys, which is just as bad. Many mediocre characters redeem themselves by having powerful Final Smashes, and many high-ranking characters(Such as MK) have bad Final Smashes. If FSes get removed, things get unbalanced again, which is stupid because it's not random who gets the smash ball - it takes skill to get them.

Having items off in Smash Bros greatly unbalances the game and is a sin I hope will disappear now that exploding crates and stuff can be turned off. Several characters in Melee based some of their efficiency on items, and those were killed by items' exclusion. Mewtwo in particular was destroyed because items were always off in tourneys. The characters are balanced with items in mind. The fact that items are random is no excuse - lots of characters have random attacks anyway, such as Peach and Mr. G&W, and it takes skill, not randomness, to put items to good use. Overpowered stuff like Hammers I can understand though - but those can be turned off.

In Brawl, it seems that Smash Balls will get kicked out of tourneys, which is just as bad. Many mediocre characters redeem themselves by having powerful Final Smashes, and many high-ranking characters(Such as MK) have bad Final Smashes. If FSes get removed, things get unbalanced again, which is stupid because it's not random who gets the smash ball - it takes skill to get them.


finally someone who understands.
no point in having items in a game if you are gonna turn them off.

I don't like having smash balls on because I'm always the one who wittles it down and someone steals the last hit.

IT'S NOT FAIR! Q_Q

I've been through pretty much all of the Silent Hills using only the pipe and SH0 with bare hands. Maybe not so much as a challenge, but for fun. It's surprisingly easy to bitch around those monstrosities.

Resident Evil 4 was the last game I played that afforded an acceptable degree of latitude between weapons. Still, I get nothing but headaches restricting my weapon choice to knife only.

Finally, I used to run through Metal Gear Solids 1, 2, and 3 on Extreme to get top code name rankings, usually without weapons. With varying degrees of success.

Beating Gradius V at very hard is challenging enough as it is.

finally someone who understands.
no point in having items in a game if you are gonna turn them off.

Honestly, the perpetuated argument pertaining to whether or not items should be present in matches is essentially a pointless deadlock. There is no proper way, intrinsically, to play SSBB, otherwise the developers wouldn't have opted to include items, or provided an option to toggle items off. Items exist to cater to players seeking more spontaneity, whereas proscribing items allows other players to utilize their character to their fullest efficiency without extraneous endowments to augment them.

Personally, I prefer no items whatsoever, but for the sake of eschewing a vehement conflict of pettiness with others whose preferences differ, I don't protest the usage of them.

no point in having items in a game if you are gonna turn them off.


because i tend to not limit myself, i do several challenges, on several games.


RESIDENT EVIL directors cut:
enchanced mode, jill, knife only.

resident evil 3:
knife nemesis to death on every occasion possible.

castlevania SOTN:
naked alucard challenge (nothing equipped).


these are some of the challenges i have completed.

working in:

ff 1 all black mages (i suck with black mages)

Am I the only one who sees the dislogic in these quotes?

I DO SEE WHAT YOU SEE MAN YEAH

CATASTROPHE, you just contradicted yourself big time.

CATASTROPHE, you just contradicted yourself big time.

how come?

the difference is brawl is not a traditional fighting game, so turning off items (which can make a fight much more fun, as well as challenging) is stupid. go play soul calibur or street fighter for a true itemless fighting game experience.


whereas special runs on other games (like the ones i said) force you to use items to the minimum,
who said you cant heal yourself with a FAS in RE? and the point of knifing nemesis is to use the knife... ONLY ON HIM, you can use any weapons and items the rest of the game.

who said you cant use knives, axes, crosses, potions, status-healing items, etc in SOTN?

HEY CATASTROPHE, L2READ YOUR OWN POST. YOU DIDN'T SPECIFY THAT BRAWL IS THE ONLY GAME THAT YOU MEANT WHEN TALKING ABOUT ITEMS IN GAMES. THEREFORE, YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF.

DUMBASS.

What you're basically saying is that Game A is a fighter with items, so it is stupid to turn them off. But Game B isn't, so do whatever you want with them.

It is like, a very bad argument, I'm just saying. And the two views are contradictory, even if you don't happen to feel that way.

And just so you know, nobody said you have to use items in Brawl either.

I love doing "Handcannon only" runs in RE4. However, I've yet to find a way to release Ashley from her restraints w/o allowing myself 3 rifle shots.

If anyone has any insight on doing that w/o blowing her away (i.e., allowing a TRUE handcannon only run) let me know, and I'll try it~

Otherwise, it isn't horribly challenging, you just have to learn to adjust to the delay.

]HEY CATASTROPHE, L2READ YOUR OWN POST. YOU DIDN'T SPECIFY THAT BRAWL IS THE ONLY GAME THAT YOU MEANT WHEN TALKING ABOUT ITEMS IN GAMES. THEREFORE, YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF.

DUMBASS


did i ever said any other fighting game besides brawl? what game were we talking about earlier? tekken? rakuga kids? kasumi ninja? NO, we were talking about SSBB

not my fault people didnt read/get that.

oh and:


I love doing "Handcannon only" runs in RE4. However, I've yet to find a way to release Ashley from her restraints w/o allowing myself 3 rifle shots.

If anyone has any insight on doing that w/o blowing her away (i.e., allowing a TRUE handcannon only run) let me know, and I'll try it~

Otherwise, it isn't horribly challenging, you just have to learn to adjust to the delay.

try aiming at the bars where ashley's body isnt present, like the sides.
plus, make sure the LED had a big dot at the end, that means you will hit the bar.
you are the first person i have "seen" with a problem there with the handcannon.

I don't have a red dot. I've got a reticle. I have the Wii version.

But I'll try the sides next time!

did i ever said any other fighting game besides brawl? what game were we talking about earlier? tekken? rakuga kids? kasumi ninja? NO, we were talking about SSBB

not my fault people didnt read/get that.


There's a BIG difference between, "no point in having items if you're gonna turn them off" and "no point in having items in a game if you're gonna turn them off."

So it's your fault for the sucky wordage.

I don't have a red dot. I've got a reticle. I have the Wii version.

But I'll try the sides next time!


oh, you have said ealier.

well, then the reticle changes color, that means you will hit it (obvious tip is obvious), but make sure to shoot from the sides.
if that fails, just plug a NGC controller and use the LED.

HEY CATASTROPHE, L2READ YOUR OWN POST. YOU DIDN'T SPECIFY THAT BRAWL IS THE ONLY GAME THAT YOU MEANT WHEN TALKING ABOUT ITEMS IN GAMES. THEREFORE, YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF.

DUMBASS.

x2

how come?

You said "no point in having items in a game if you are gonna turn them off" and then listed all these games where you effectively turned off various items for the sake of "challenge."


the difference is brawl is not a traditional fighting game, so turning off items (which can make a fight much more fun, as well as challenging) is stupid. go play soul calibur or street fighter for a true itemless fighting game experience.

Why is it stupid? I fail to see how Brawl is less challenging when you're forced to use any given character to its fullest by removing items. For example, with items on, there's no point in learning how to use Zamus' fallen armor parts effectively to gain an advantage during the first stock of the match when there's a myriad of other items laying around, many of which are capable of auto-KO's. Most of the item matches I've played degenerated into chase-the-smashball (talk about auto-KOs), which I don't find fun at all. JFTR, I play (or have played) Tekken and SF as well as Brawl, and I find Brawl to be every bit a "fighting game experience" as the other two. Besides, Tekken and SF don't have Samus. Or Falco. Or Ness.


whereas special runs on other games (like the ones i said) force you to use items to the minimum,

See my "force you to use your character to the fullest" point above.


who said you cant use knives, axes, crosses, potions, status-healing items, etc in SOTN?

Who said you MUST use items in Brawl?


If anyone has any insight on doing that w/o blowing her away (i.e., allowing a TRUE handcannon only run) let me know, and I'll try it~

Do you mean other than putting Ashley in her knight's armor? I haven't tested it fully, but it seems as if the HC's blast (for lack of a better word) spreads outward a bit, sorta kinda like a shotgun--a little bit. Have you tried putting the outer edge of your reticle on the edge of her restraints? Or maybe some firing between the restraint shenanigans? I haven't tried it yet, tbqh, but I'm nearly there in my latest playthrough, so I'll give it a whirl myself when I get there.

my point was, why turn off items in tournaments?, thats my only major complaint, thats what originated this discussion

or having certain characters and stages excluded as well?
its like forcing you to think using items in brawl is a sin.

i hate it when people force me to anything, from learing stuff i dont need or will not apply in my entire life, to making me believe some woman made out of a rib was conviced by a talking snake to eat the fruit of a magical tree.

that triggers some sort of defense mecanism that immediately questions the veracity and/or futility of things.

thats my question: WHY?

the FPS Shooter for PS2 called BLACK. I tried it without using grenades. now I saw "OH DEAR! FUCK THAT SHIT!" use grenades whenever.

First half of FFVIII w/o summons.

because lots of items are broken/cheap and should mean KO brotha

i know skill skill bro but like u think like spawn it near your opponent no you and he win man u cry

u can't control where spawn yo

they what they do is try make skill only item man skill is you need but like luck and junk it happens bro man but like man you only want that skill bro

so like i know like certain stages are just cheap so kicked out yo

like walls they are cheap cause like dedede he can infinite man on wall ness like others like chaingrab forever too against walls but like dedede he can chain like infinite others too man oh baby

sorry garamond, i dont speak nigger

fuck you

Nigger Please.

banging a hot girl beats

my point was, why turn off items in tournaments?, thats my only major complaint, thats what originated this discussion

The use of items devalue skill in a competitive setting. Things that higher-level players do in Brawl, like proper spacing, proper DI, edgeguarding, and the few AT's Sakurai deigned to leave in, don't mean a whole lot when over a dozen items (that's roughly a quarter, for the record) can KO at much lower percentages than anything the majority of the roster can do.


or having certain characters and stages excluded as well?

No characters have been banned from any Smash game in tournaments, to my knowledge. Certain stages are banned because of unreasonable hazards and/or scrolling, like Rumble Falls. Others are banned for having walls, which allows several characters to have nearly-infinite locks against said walls, like Pit's Side-B, Falco, Fox, and MK's jab combos, and DDD can infinite chaingrab pretty much the entire roster against a wall. Allowing walled stages would make even more characters nigh-unplayable in a competitive setting because gameplay would degenerate into who can go infinite first. Not cool.


its like forcing you to think using items in brawl is a sin.

i hate it when people force me to anything, from learing stuff i dont need or will not apply in my entire life, to making me believe some woman made out of a rib was conviced by a talking snake to eat the fruit of a magical tree.

Nobody's forcing you to think anything. Don't baww. :rolleyes:

Catastrophe I am forcing you to play without items forever, take that.

See Cyan now you are wrong on one point.

Catastrophe I am forcing you to play without items forever, take that.

See Cyan now you are wrong on one point.

becuase right now youre just a bunch of letters, you cant force me to anything.
not you, not anyone.




Nobody's forcing you to think anything. Don't baww. :rolleyes:

youre forcing me to think tiers exist.
until an OFFICIAL, released by nintendo (or at least sakurai) is released. until then, its all fanmade bullshit, like the countless theories to silent hill games.

tiers just ranking how they do tournaymant man u can no expact yoshi dominating like snake b/c yoshi no can c4 self to die

Nigger Please.


Yeeeeeeeeees?

from what i could understand from you niggernese, you say yoshi cant stand up to snake.

thats bull.
it all depends on the player.
my neighbor is a yoshi master, and often kicks my ass, ME, the unbeatable game and watch champion! (inb4ifyoureunbeatablehowcomeyoulosetohim).
also, the small tourneys (more like gatherings, as there is no prize, just the fun of playing with other 30 people) held every sunday at an "arcade" here shows mixed results ALWAYS.
i have yet to see the same character win twice.

Your neighbor happens to be a better player than you. And if your local tournament has items on, that's likely why it's more random. Still, there could be a variety of factors as to why the results are varied (varying skill level, good players like to goof around, horny teenagers pick zamus too much, etc.), and it's a rather small sample size anyways. Most tournaments have seen either Snake or Metaknight winning because those characters were created with inherent advantages that make them better than most of the cast. A tier list is basically a tabulation of tournament results from equally skilled players, so the main thing that's a determinant in who is on top is the character. And there is usually similar results since certain characters are just better than other characters. That doesn't mean you'll win just because you pick a character that happens to be GOOD, you have to know how to play as him to win. This has been proven since your neighbor has owned you with Yoshi.

Also go Angels.

You see, if you and your friend were both PRO and you picked Dedede and he picked Donkey Kong, you'd win every time.

you cant force me to anything.
not you, not anyone.


youre forcing me to think tiers exist.

You're awfully good at contradicting yourself. It's kind of like this: you don't have to believe gravity exists. You might see a thousand apples fall from the tree in your backyard, but you're not forced to think anything about gravity. Yes, you'd be very wrong, but you're not forced to think anything. So come off your whiny bullshit.


until an OFFICIAL, released by nintendo (or at least sakurai) is released. until then, its all fanmade bullshit, like the countless theories to silent hill games.

Seeing as Ninty doesn't sanction any tournaments and Sakurai's an anti-competition moron, the only one bullshitting is you.


my neighbor is a yoshi master, and often kicks my ass, ME, the unbeatable game and watch champion!

Then clearly, your friend is much better at Smash than you. That doesn't disprove the existence of tiers. Neither do your "tournaments" that, judging by your rantings earlier in this thread, must be played with items.

And just because, here's a vid of a really good GW in a tourney match against quite possibly the best Falco in the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHWIBVEpmKk&feature=related

You see, if you and your friend were both PRO and you picked Dedede and he picked Donkey Kong, you'd win every time.

we are tied actually, i have beaten him the same amount of times he has beaten me, and thats a lot to say for him, because he is a damn good player.
hes not better than me, im not better than him.
but thats just in brawl.
in melee he doesnt stand a chance against my luigi.
or in bros, i have never been beaten if i use kirby.. i was that good (WAS because my copy of bros was stolen 5 years ago and havent played it since)

we are tied actually, i have beaten him the same amount of times he has beaten me, and thats a lot to say for him, because he is a damn good player.
hes not better than me, im not better than him.
but thats just in brawl.
in melee he doesnt stand a chance against my luigi.
or in bros, i have never been beaten if i use kirby.. i was that good (WAS because my copy of bros was stolen 5 years ago and havent played it since)

So in other words, he is better than you at Brawl, you just won't admit it.

No comment regarding melee.

As for Bros. being the best with Kirby isn't something someone can be proud about. It's a well known fact Kirby was overpowered beyond compare.

i dont have to admit that which is not true.
i clearly said we are tied.
too bad he became a pc gamer and now spends most of his time playing soldier front and gunz.

Catastrophe, you don't understand what tiers are.
Let me help:
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.
They are not a ranking of how good a character is. It is a ranking of how often they win tournaments.

and because of how often they win, they are labeled "best", and thats where they are wrong.
no character is better than others, thats what people must understand

Dedede is better than 6 character definitely in an match-up since he can infinite and kill them. He can also chain grab about 20 others characters that gives him an easier match-up.

Just because you don't want to recognize that certain characters were created better than others doesn't make it true. Whether or not the tier list accurately reflects that, though, is like Canada. French Canada.

that made no sense.
oh i forgot who i was writing to.

Tier lists may not be and exact, but if there happens to be a trend of certain character constantly winning and certain characters never winning, I think it would suggest that the characters that happen to be winning tournaments are better than those that don't. I understand it may not be exact, but you're a moron if you think every character is equal. Yes, I understand that some of your "pro" friends or neighbors or whatever junk may be good with all sorts of different characters, but that's because of the discrepancy in skill amongst other factors (like you guys not really knowing how to fully utilize some of the better characters for whatever reason).

I mention Dedede since he can infinite six characters with a down-grab to the point where an up throw will kill then, and can also chain-grab about twenty other characters (where you can't escape the repeated down-throws until you reach the end of a platform). If you're trying to tell me that somebody like that is on par with Yoshi, you really don't know what you're talking about.

BUT YOSHI IS UNFLINCHABLE WHEN HE USES HIS SECOND JUMP!

BUT YOSHI IS UNFLINCHABLE WHEN HE USES HIS SECOND JUMP!

that is so damn correct.

thats probably a compensation for the lack of a up-b recovery move.

Yoshi's up-b still recovers to some degree, it just isn't at any point where it really help hims that much. His second jump is still decent, but it really pales in comparison to most of the good recoveries a lot of the other characters in the game happen to have.

Dedede also has super armor frames during his Super Dedede Jump's upward trajectory.

no character is better than others, thats what people must understand

Then why are Snake and MK (and to a lesser extent, GW, DDD, and Falco) winning so many tournaments? Because they look cool?

Metaknight's up-B is an excellent recovery move (as if FIVE JUMPS and gliding weren't enough for him!), and if all that weren't enough, it just happens to be his best kill move, as it's about the easiest move in the game to score a stage spike with.

Falco can chaingrab a vast majority of the cast with his downthrow to 30-50%. His dair happens to be one of the best spikes in the game. If he gets to the edge, a good Falco will regularly get <50% spike KO's from the D-throw CG. He also has one of the best camping games, with his SHDL's and other shenanigans.

On several stages, a good Snake can make it so that if you even try to approach him, you will either get blown up by mines/C4 or beat up by U-tilts or F-tilts. If you don't approach him, you'll get blown up by grenades or Snakedashing.

Ice Climbers have multiple ways to perform an infinite chaingrab on pretty much the entire cast.

DDD's obvious strengths have already been discussed.

Ness can be 0-death chaingrabbed by Marth and Charizard without them even using a throw.

Ganondorf's D-air can be punished, EVEN IF IT CONNECTS.


no character is better than others, thats what people must understand

way to be a douchebag and make my nick look like a girl's name, good job.
all because of one MEASLY typo any human can make.

oh and yes, just because they look cool.
not only the tournaments you hear of count.
tournaments held worldwide show many characters winning consequtively (sp?).

What tournaments?

Who placed where?

You just seem to ignoring everything most people say and then go on talking about how friends and junk can beat you with lower tier characters so every character must be just as good.

That's like me saying Dan is just as good as Ryu is Street Fight or something when it's clear he's just a weakened clone.

What tournaments?

Who placed where?

You just seem to ignoring everything most people say and then go on talking about how friends and junk can beat you with lower tier characters so every character must be just as good.

That's like me saying Dan is just as good as Ryu is Street Fight or something when it's clear he's just a weakened clone.


THEN WHO WAS CAR?

im not ignoring anything, but to think only tournaments HE has heard of are the only ones that matter is very close minded.

there we go again with "tiers"..
this nevers ends, i give up.
go live in your fantasy world of supremacy, ill stick with the reality of equiality, it all depends on the player, not the characters.


DONT DISS MA BOI DAN! KADOKEN!

He's getting results from a lot of tournaments from places throughout the country and possibly the world - it is not isolated to some small area with the same players who may have their own personal preferences for characters and other junk.

If your argument is that players are important, that's obvious. But you're saying that each characters is just as good as every other character, which is wrong. Just because Player A can beat Player B with whatever character, it doesn't make that character better. It makes the player better. When the players are equally skilled, the character will play the definitive roll in determining who wins.

of course i know that.

why is it wrong? it trully depends on the player.
if player A choose "supposedly" the best character, and is owned by player b using "supposedly" the weakest character because player A couldnt handle it well, what then?

of course if player A is a badass and picks the strongest and player B is as badass with the weakest character, then the upcoming battle will be decided on skill alone (and perphaps luck, but i dont believe in luck, just the inevitable).

i base this seeing youtube vids regarding awesome players using every character to its fullest, from jigglypuff (hell, whoever played as it gets my respects), massive combos with peach (HOLY HELL I WANT TO LEARN THAT!) to bowsercides (i lold).

of course i know that.

why is it wrong? it trully depends on the player.
if player A choose "supposedly" the best character, and is owned by player b using "supposedly" the weakest character because player A couldnt handle it well, what then?

Then Player A is either worse than Player B, or Character B just happens to be a good counter to Player A. Though, I think none of the bottom tier character s match-up well against the best of the best in Brawl.


of course if player A is a badass and picks the strongest and player B is as badass with the weakest character, then the upcoming battle will be decided on skill alone (and perphaps luck, but i dont believe in luck, just the inevitable).

Skill shouldn't play a factor is they were both equally "badass" with their character. You know, because then skill should be equal on both sides, and other factors like stage and character match-ups should be what determines who wins.


i base this seeing youtube vids regarding awesome players using every character to its fullest, from jigglypuff (hell, whoever played as it gets my respects), massive combos with peach (HOLY HELL I WANT TO LEARN THAT!) to bowsercides (i lold).

When a character like Jigglypuff and a character like Metaknight are used to their fullest, Jigglypuff loses. Metaknight has quicker attacks, more priority, and better recovery than Jigglypuff so he wins more often. And he doesn't die when his shield breaks. Jigglypuff has an extremely hard time approaching Metaknight and killing him.

Whatever combos you've seen are probably against newer players - I'm sure if Peach had massive combos that couldn't be DIed out of, she'd be doing much better in tournaments.

The player being Bowsercided can control the direction as well. It just depends on health and junk, so you can DI out of it a lot. Obviously both players die, so it's really not useful in all situations either.

You've basically given hypotheticals - Cyan's already outlined why certain characters are outright better than others and I've explained it to some degree. Just because you've experienced awesome Jigglypuff players doesn't change the fact that Jigglypuff is at a severe disadvantage against most of the cast. The player just happens to be really damn good and will beat people that aren't.

The player just happens to be really damn good and will beat people that aren't.


and that my friend, is called skill.
let me put it in a DBZ type explanation, for "better" understanding.
say player A has a power level of 6000, and player B has the same power level, they choose characters they use best, having the same level, the only thing who will determine the victor is skill, theres a 50% chance A wins, and theres a 50% chance B wins, regardless if A was fox and B was DK (speed vs strenght), both players know the dirty tricks of their characters.


but oh well, as said before, you have your brawl gaming life ruled over by "tiers" which force you to think what they want you to think.

now i wont even start with people who main the random character, thats completely insane.

and that my friend, is called skill.

Obviously it's skill. I don't see how somebody who is talented beating on somebody less talented in any way helps the argument you're making. And just so you know what that is -


no character is better than others, thats what people must understand

A disparity in skill is why Jigglypuff can own somebody like Snake. It can still happen even with two highly skilled players, but it won't happen consistently. Snake just has too many advantages for Jigglypuff players of equal skill to overcome. As in, most of Snake's attacks have priority over Jigglypuff's, he has stronger attacks, his attacks have much larger hitboxes (with his ftilt & utilt having disjointed ones that can be very hard to dodge), he has a projectile game, he can mortar slide for approach, and he is much heavier so he stays alive at much higher percentages. These advantages don't put Snake on equal footing with Jigglypuff - they make him better than him. While Snake being considered one of the "cool" characters obviously makes him picked more often, a lot of people in tournaments tend to like winning more than the like picking COOL PEOPLE. A character like Sonic, who got a lot of buzz as one of the more popular characters in Brawl (except from Nintendo lover boys) is rarely chosen since he outright sucks in the game. Winning is usually the main priority when it comes to tournaments.


let me put it in a DBZ type explanation, for "better" understanding. say player A has a power level of 6000, and player B has the same power level, they choose characters they use best, having the same level, the only thing who will determine the victor is skill, theres a 50% chance A wins, and theres a 50% chance B wins, regardless if A was fox and B was DK (speed vs strenght), both players know the dirty tricks of their characters.

You just arbitrarily assign percentages on how often the characters win with no real reasoning. Even if both players know the dirty tricks of each individual character in the game, some characters have better tricks and thus win more often. Somebody like Ike matches fairly poorly against characters with good projectiles since he's rather slow and without a projectile himself, so he can't approach them that well. Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Samus do poorly against Dedede because all Dedede needs to do for a stock is get them into one grab and start an infinite and inescapable combo and kill them with an up-throw. Character match-ups exist and cause major problems for players, and if two players happen to have an equal "POWER-LEVEL" like you say, it's likely a major factor in determining the outcome of the match.


but oh well, as said before, you have your brawl gaming life ruled over by "tiers" which force you to think what they want you to think.

now i wont even start with people who main the random character, thats completely insane.

I don't play competitively or care for tiers at all, I play whoever I find to be entertaining. I just find this quote moronic:


no character is better than others, thats what people must understand

That's all, really. Have a nice day!

I don't play competitively or care for tiers at all, I play whoever I find to be entertaining. I just find this quote moronic:



YOU
ME
ALL ITEMS
JIGGLYPUFF ONLY
HYRULE TEMPLE'S BASEMENT
NAO!

CATASTROPHE

I actually like playing as Jigglypuff even if I suck with him. If you're serious about those conditions I can play tomorrow, but it really is pretty late right now so it'll have to wait.

Jigglypuff was awesome in Melee. Sucks they nerfed her so hard in brawl. nearly impossible to ko with rest now. ;_;


Anyways, Catastrophe, you still don't get it. I'm not 100% sure Garamond and Cyan get it either but they aren't assaulting the existence of tiers so I don't care.
Tiers are a measure of how often a character wins a tournament. Tournaments have, for whatever reason, in this context, items turned off. That's the way it is. Just pretend it's arbitrary for the moment, because the items debate isn't one I want to get into (personally I prefer playing with most items on for fun. if I wanted to actually compete, I'd play Melee. Brawl is fucking terrible compared to Melee for actual competition).

Thus
Tiers accurately reflect who wins the most tournaments when there are items off.

That's it. That's all they do. Furthermore, they only serve as an accurate predicter of skill when it comes to the top eschelon of players. Nobody who has posted in this thread, I assume, is at that level... although I haven't played anybody personally so I won't actually say I know that to be fact.
This brings me to the point that:

Tiers are not relavent to you, Catastrophe. They aren't relavent to like 90% of Smash players.

They serve as an interesting stastical analysis for those who are into that kind of thing, and they unfortuantley get misinterpreted to mean "High tier = better character than low tier". That's such a fucking ambigious sentence. Better in what sense? The best you can say is "Better at 1v1 with no items in a tournament setting where they will be picked and counterpicked based on what people percieve their abilities as" or something? I dunno. But it sure isn't "best at ffa 4 player with items" or "best at coin match" or anything like that.

People who misinterpret the tier list as a ranking of power and want to play to win and thus think they should only play the top tiered characters are all too common, unfortuantley. Not only does this kill the metagame, but it self-perpetuates a stagnant tier list.

We can clearly see in Melee how certain characters rose and fell throughout the game's lifetime. Most notably, of course, is the Ice Climbers, who started off shitty shit tier and are now mid-high (I think?). If nobody had taken the time to learn the Ice Climbers because they were too busy playing Fox and Marth, than they never would've learned all the advanced tactics we know for them now, and they never would've rose in tier.
Bad characters can place well in tournaments in the hands of the right players at the right time. If anything, a tier list is closer to a chart of difficulty, with the top tiers being "easy to win a tournament with (once mastered)" versus the bottom tiers being "fucking hard to win a tournament with (once mastered)". This doesn't always correlate to "easy to learn"/"hard to learn", mind you, although it often does.

Can you take that to mean top tiers are better characters than lower tiers? I guess, if you want. If you let that affect your playing at a non super competitive level, you're a fucking idiot though, because you are almost 100% likely to do fine with whoever you want to use as long as you have fun with it. On the other hand, if you try to claim that "tiers don't exist", you're fucking stupid as well. Final Fantasy Shrine "exists." Google "exists". The man-made construct of "tiers" exists too.

In the end, I think, the Smash community, like many online communities (especially with a slightly younger audience), is full of retards, and having seen some of the discusison by backroomers on the Smash World Forums I'm not even sure the tier list can be fully trusted as accurate and as unbiased as it claims to be. People made such a huge deal about the tier list even though it doesn't, for the most part, matter. There are tier lists for pretty much every game ever. It'd be nice if Smash fans weren't such babies about it and just played the game the way they wanted to play without worrying about what other people think, whether they're for one side or the other on the "tier war."



Edit: Holy wall of text. I shouldn't post when I'm tired and should've gone to bed like three hours ago.


I wanted to add, though, that I think talking about tiers and game balance are seperate topics. I agree with Garamond and Cyan that Brawl is not balanced (not even close to it). Melee and 64 weren't balanced either. The problem with game balance, though - and you see this time and time agian with every multiplayer game - is whether to balance it for the highest skilled players or for the common players. The only way to keep the competitive players happy is to balance it for them and assume the normal players will just deal with it/not notice it. Brawl, Melee, and 64 were all balanced for the normal/casual players though. In most gameplay for the game, every character is more or less equal, and you're absolutley right about that Catastrophe. At the very peak of skill, though - we're talking IN THE REALM OF THEORY NOW - then we get into which characters are definitley better than other characters.

Cyan and Garamond are approaching this from the theory standpoint. In theory, it seems like right now MK and Snake are the two best characters. In practice, for most people, this is probably not true because they haven't reached the perfection required to see the huge imbalances. People might notice trends, but it is entirely possible to notice contrary trends to everyone else (ie one player in your group of friends gets really good as Yoshi and is nearly unbeatable as him, thus you all draw the conclusion that Yoshi is one of the best in the game), so a discussion of "who the best" is a combination of theory and, of course, data. The only data we can trust and get currently is who wins the most "official" tournaments. That's where tier lists get mixed into the mess.

I think I challenged myself with Star Ocean: Til The End of Time. I have yet to beat Luther. I love the game though, so maybe one day I'll pick it up again.

Cyan and Garamond are approaching this from the theory standpoint. In theory, it seems like right now MK and Snake are the two best characters.

I was using theory to explain why the data shows Snake and MK pretty much dominating the tournament scene, thus, their placement in the top tier. I know exactly what the tier list is about, but I do make the assumption that if Character A is winning lots and Character Z isn't winning at all, there's a better reason than "ZOMG Character A looks way cooler than Character Z!"

On top of the things Gara and I have mentioned, Snake can also jab (yes, JAB) to block pretty much any attack, including many (if not most) projectiles. I've personally seen Snake block Ness' PK thunder and both of Samus' missiles. I've heard anecdotes of Snake blocking F-smashes from BEHIND HIM by jabbing.

Christ, Wattson. I'm gonna call you Mr. Rambler.

Catastrophe I don't have much to say anymore about this let's just move on and agree that Jigglypuff is awesome.

See it's just this mainly I disagree with -


no character is better than others, thats what people must understand

because I think some characters are better than others because of how they were or were not programmed, and while things may change depending on how you play, somebody like Falcon will still suck no matter what.

Things some people here need to understand:

1: The current tier lists in Brawl are based on so few tourneys that some characters only have ONE SINGLE MATCH recorded. Toon Link, for instance, is a candidate for top-tier, yet no one has actually explored his potential yet because a lot of people expect him to suck like Young Link in Melee and Link in Brawl.

2: Tiers exist, but a lot of low-tier characters are so because the best players don't use them, not because they are actually bad. When a character isn't used a lot, no advanced techniques are discovered with it, and even fewer people try to use it. This continues in a cycle that ends with the character being low-tier. Snake is currently top-tier because he has been explored a lot to find ATs, and many have been found. That can happen with any other character too.

3: There is no reason to have all items off other than refusing to learn to adapt to the situation. A lot of good players depend on a set-in-stone strategy plan to use their character efficiently, and get thrown completely out of whack if something unforeseen happens. Is that what you would call skill? No, skill is to be able to perform well no matter what happens. Your opponent got a Beam Sword? You should be able to dodge him and steal it from him. He got a Star Rod? What, you can't even shield those slow shots? He got a Bob-Omb? What, you haven't learned to catch items in the air when they are thrown at you? He flew off with a Warp Star? Well, if you can't even
escape THOSE...

Just turn off Hammers, Cracker Launchers, Power Stars, and a couple others, and the game is perfectly fair. Heck, the Golden Hammers could even be left on, because they take several seconds to be pickup-able, enough time for everyone to have a chance to get them.

1: The current tier lists in Brawl are based on so few tourneys that some characters only have ONE SINGLE MATCH recorded. Toon Link, for instance, is a candidate for top-tier, yet no one has actually explored his potential yet because a lot of people expect him to suck like Young Link in Melee and Link in Brawl.

There is no "official" tier list yet for the reasons you just listed. At the moment, the two that are closest to set in anything firmer than jell-o are Snake and MK in Top, because they are dominating the tournament scene at the moment.

I've never heard anybody seriously calling Tink Top-tier. High-tier, perhaps (and I think he is good enough for High), but not Top. Sounds like splitting hairs, but there's a noticeable gap between Top and "merely" High at the moment.


2: Tiers exist, but a lot of low-tier characters are so because the best players don't use them, not because they are actually bad. When a character isn't used a lot, no advanced techniques are discovered with it, and even fewer people try to use it. This continues in a cycle that ends with the character being low-tier. Snake is currently top-tier because he has been explored a lot to find ATs, and many have been found. That can happen with any other character too.

Why hasn't it happened then? It's not like Snake's been around longer than Captain Falcon, y'know. At any rate, Azen has placed with Lucario multiple times, so that pretty much shoots your argument to hell. Snake is top tier because he wins. He wins because he's very, very close to being broken. I've heard comparisons to Akuma already.


3: There is no reason to have all items off other than refusing to learn to adapt to the situation.

Every reputable tournament turns items off. TO's have very good reasons for doing so, so griping about "lack of skill" because of no-item play is ridiculous. Can item play work? Personally, I think it can, but it's going to take a hell of a lot more thought than you've put into it and even more testing to make sure it doesn't rape the metagame.