Have unfortunalty lost alot of "character" that this great serise had once estalblished - And I feel pretty dissapointed about it.
Personally, and sadly - FFXIII is the first final fantasy since FF7 (My first FF) that I am not looking forward too.

(as a pre-note: I ask you to forgive any bad grammer/spelling as it is not a strong point of mine - aslong as it gets the point across :) )

In Using the term - "Character" I simply mean the essence of the game: It's 'feel' and attitude - How much escapism can truly be experinced from any specific Final Fantasy title - with in the world and setting that your thrown into.
When I used to play FF games *Read: FF7 to FF9*, it felt unique, like something different and 'apart' from the rest of the games that were out there.
And equally at the same time - each FF title was in-itself unique! It was a very appealing combination for me...


Since Square and Enix formed

Final Fanstasy has been totally whored out - reduced to the "lowest common denominator" (made simpler) - in an attempt to increase its the serise's popularity (profit). I for-one, have felt alienated as a long-term FF fan, sacfrificed for a new audience.
LISTEN UP! - SE is raking in profit from the people who buy each FF purly because "its a FF title". While also taking in new custom at the same time! All because they've decided to trashs the long standing quality of your beloved serise.

Just think of the well estalblished jobs in the really 'old school' FF's.. and how much of a nice 'balance' they all had... or even, think back to how many different materia combinations there were in FF7, or how you could manipulate your GF's in FF8 to learn different abilities, and in-tern cumstomise your characters into certain 'jobs'. WE DONT GET ANYTHING THAT COMPLEX ANYMORE!!!


FFX - Laid waste to a perfectly functioning "Job/Customisation system" ( estalblished through FF1-9)
It took away the "world map" concept, which has always functioned perfectly well to give the feeling of 'distance' in the world, without requiring rediculous traveling times.
I for one do not enjoy 'hoping' onto an airship and "selecting a destination" from a goddamn' list. I wana' command my airship/sub/choco/car, and I wana' travel around the world as I please.

End-game FFX envolves each character having exactally the same stats thanks to the genious sphere grid. combinded with a end boss that is laughable, and the FF typical "boss that is stonger than the final boss" (omega, ozma, and weapons) within FFX (penance) is not even motivating enough to want to attempt.


FFX-2 - I actually didnt mind this one for killing time - it was atleast entertaining - and the battle system was at the least refreshing.
Im not even going to bother mentioning the (lack of) plot. For me it was basically 'fun a level grind' to kill time, untill FFXI.
(Note: "Alternate endings" - sounds sadly like and excuse for lack of plot and play-ability, which is damn evident after playing it........)


FFXI - Really, this game should have just been called "Final Fantasy: Online"
The only reason it was released with-in the traditional "FF serise" was due to the fact it was garenteed to be bought by many 'bandwagon FF' players. Myslef included. - This game had a garenteed market. (Like FFXII, and FFXIII will.....)
And after clocking up over 250 DAYS of playtime on FFXI I can safely say: It is worth neither the time or the money. We missed out on a real FF with this one.

(If they had released this as a single player game - with the strong plot that it has - and a revised turn-based battle system, and 'world map' - it could have been one of the greats)


FFXII - has made, this once complex an compelling serise, into nothing more than an OFF-LINE MMORPG. I have clocked up 70+ hrs of play - and have had to change my gambits little more than 3 times... this game is a no brainer, it is loboroius - with little that makes it compelling enough to complete.
It continued the FFX idea of quantity over quality. Really - the only time i'll ever spend camping a NM for a rare item drop is in a TRUE mmorpg, where that item holds actual value. Vaan's rabit nose pisses me off emensly - worse than tidus's voice actor did. Not too mention how weak the music score is, and how repatative and similar each town is.


FFXIII- I hear the producer wants a "Face paced RGP" - And If it is anything like FFXII's "face paced action..." then SE will have certainly lost a long time devoted player.
I want an advanced, and improved version of the systems they'd worked so hard on in FF7 and 8, respectivly. With up-to-date technology, they could take all the various 'long standing FF themes' even deeper, and make them more envolving. Rather than going off on some weird tangent after FF10, and changing a perfectly good system.

"If it 'aint broke, dont fix it" ....goddamn' improve it instead SE!! dont take huge-valuable-chunks out of a good serise! They could have gone down a much better road post FF9...





I mostly blame Enix for this, as up untill their merge with Square, Final Fantasy games had a solid mix of themes and ideas which made the serise what it is (or what is was!) to so many people.

I want SQUARE, to return to what they were originaly good at. Making great games, with DEPTH to them.....


I'd like to hear a good few FF veterans thoughts on this matter....
I'm not a hater, im simply dissapointed on so many levels.... and I am sick of being taken advantage off by SE, purley because I want a decent final fantasy game, again!

Final Fantasy, simply no longer has the 'character' it used to have. Please - discuss.

It's probably worth noting that FFX and FFX-2 were made before the companies merged. I don't really have anything else to contribute to this thread.

Hmmm, my timing may not be correct, but i do remember them merging around the time of X and X-2....

It happened shortly after FFX-2 was made, which is why the Japanese version has the Square Soft logo in the beginning and the NTSC version has the Square Enix logo.

FFX - Laid waste to a perfectly functioning "Job/Customisation system" ( estalblished through FF1-9)
It took away the "world map" concept, which has always functioned perfectly well to give the feeling of 'distance' in the world, without requiring rediculous traveling times.
I for one do not enjoy 'hoping' onto an airship and "selecting a destination" from a goddamn' list. I wana' command my airship/sub/choco/car, and I wana' travel around the world as I please.

End-game FFX envolves each character having exactally the same stats thanks to the genious sphere grid. combinded with a end boss that is laughable, and the FF typical "boss that is stonger than the final boss" (omega, ozma, and weapons) within FFX (penance) is not even motivating enough to want to attempt.

[/U]

The "Job/Customisation system" had been used quite a lot in the series. Fans were looking for something new, and they got the Sphere Grid.
The Sphere Grid is a very well balanced system. You said that it makes each character to have the same abilities, but thats not the case. First of all the Shere Grid is huge. Each character starts from a specific point in the Grid.

Its until much later in the game that you can move freely in the Grid. And at that point you have each character with unique abilities. You really have to work extremely hard to make each character the same!!! (Personally Im around 65-70 hours in the game, and just now my characters start having a lot of the same abilities).
Controlable Aeons were also a great add to the game.

I agree that the lack of airship traveling is a disadvantage.

The real last boss of the game was the Braska's Final Aeon. The rest of the fights after that were entirely symbolic.

The "Job/Customisation system" had been used quite a lot in the series. Fans were looking for something new, and they got the Sphere Grid.
The Sphere Grid is a very well balanced system. You said that it makes each character to have the same abilities, but thats not the case. First of all the Shere Grid is huge. Each character starts from a specific point in the Grid.

Its until much later in the game that you can move freely in the Grid. And at that point you have each character with unique abilities. You really have to work extremely hard to make each character the same!!! (Personally Im around 65-70 hours in the game, and just now my characters start having a lot of the same abilities).

Talking specifically battle system and character developement here:

Well, I suppose many issues just come down to preferance. But what I'm pretty sure is fact; is that there is a noteble drop-off in depth to the sphere grid towards endgame FFX -Which no other previous FF had.(The first time I saw character 'X' step onto characters 'Y's path, I felt a small peice of me die. lol. I saw where the limitation was set, and the first time you can lap over was from around, fairly early to midway, if I remember correctly. My FFX is scratched and I havnt been botherd to replace it.)
I remember on FF7 through 9, there were limitless combinations of set-ups. I can still open up a 100hr+ file on 7,8 and 9 - swap some junctions/materias/crystals around and battle in a different style, according to what type of destruction I'm in the mood for.lol. (and that includes giving them all the same abilities (bar 9).
Any 100hr+ file on FF10 through 12 is a different matter though. Think back if you can, and compare for yourself, I think any FF vet. will get what I'm on about.

Maybe change was a good thing, to put past battle systems into perspective. But since 10, there have been more and more added changes within each new FF title.
FF10-2's 'Moving around' system wasnt sooo bad.
FF11's was good, but thats an MMO.....
FF12 has made this game a no-brainer, for any long term FF fans.



I think radical changes are due to the available technology and trying to keep the gameplay fresh.

Good point - I am looking forward to seeing how FF13's battle system will pan out, I'm thinking it'll end up working ok if they get it right, if they get it wrong it might be even worse than FF12, at which point I will never buy a FF on release again.
Though considering that they could have taken a different path to "radical changes", i.e. FFX-2 was, lets say, 'alright' on the movement aspect. Where as FF12's was a step too far in the wrong direction.

I get the horrible feeling that 12 and 13 are both going to be the most sold out FFs we've seen to date (conforming to an action rpg standard).



So....


Would anybody else care to slip away from the "What was the best/worst/gayest/coolest/hippyest.... sword/chara/airship/style of walk/method of blinking" threads to discuss a real matter?!

I think radical changes are due to the available technology and trying to keep the gameplay fresh. How fast would someone get bored with:

Attack
Magic
Summon
Item...

Thru 13 titles...

I get it though, relearning some of the quircky battle systems has a slight learning curve, but the storylines have kept me a loyal customer of the FF series. In my opinion at least they have delivered... with the exeption of X-2...

(first bought was FF2 american)

LoL.

my reply to discodan is in the post above, as i saw his reply come though as i was editing that one >.> ohwell.

Would anybody else care to slip away from the "What was the best/worst/gayest/coolest/hippyest.... sword/chara/airship/style of walk/method of blinking" threads to discuss a real matter?!

What's to discuss? The series' artistic integrity is being whored out to continue appealing to an ever-changing mainstream audience. Almost all of them after FFVI are like that.

I think trying to be innovative is one of FF's main reasons for its success. Isn't that why we are all here debating? I havnt been on too many of Atlus's Wild Arms message boards but i bet there arent as many as FF, and its not like you can walk into BestBuy or Virgin and pick up the OST to Suikoden... (although a descent series).

Okay, I must call bullshit on that. The FF series has never done anything that could even remotely be considered innovative by reasonably informed standards. I challenge you to name even one thing that was truly innovative in the entire history of the series.

Okay, I must call bullshit on that. The FF series has never done anything that could even remotely be considered innovative by reasonably informed standards. I challenge you to name even one thing that was truly innovative in the entire history of the series.

I have a question of my own... How many rpg's have you played outside of FF? Not an insult, just curious...

Werent we just discussing battle systems? Theres (1) for you.

Love it or hate it, we are all here discussing and disagreeing, that would make it reasonably innovative, by informed standards at least.

Yes, innovation..... I was attempting to draw the line between true "innovation" and pretty much selling out - something the last few FF producers have not been too good at.

and maybe get a few gamers thoughts on the matter. People dont seem to notice the dumbing down of FF in general.

Yes, innovation..... I was attempting to draw the line between true "innovation" and pretty much selling out - something the last few FF producers have not been too good at.

and maybe get a few gamers thoughts on the matter. People dont seem to notice the dumbing down of FF in general.

I guess it goes to show, you just cant please everyone. I've enjoyed playin all titles sept x-2, (havnt bought xi). Even x-2 was a descent gaming experience, but in the end, seems like one big FFX sidequest.

I have a question of my own... How many rpg's have you played outside of FF? Not an insult, just curious...

Enough that I don't care to count them.


Werent we just discussing battle systems? Theres (1) for you.

That's absurd. How the hell do you think those are innovative?


Love it or hate it, we are all here discussing and disagreeing, that would make it reasonably innovative, by informed standards at least.

Inciting discussion makes it controversial, not innovative.

kamara,ff12 aint a ff i already know that
i stopped looking forward to the new ffs after ffx, the last true ff and masterpiece
ff12 is a good game ,but not a ff.
Its a horrible ff in that manner

If you think that the Guardian Forces and Materia were really customizable to the character, I really don't get why you wouldn't think that anything in X and XII wouldn't be. The Guardian forces and Materia makes it much less "customizable" in the sense that you can basically just transfer either the GF or Materia to another character and basically have the same functioning battler whereas in Final Fantasy X and XII you wouldn't necessarily have that since each character has to learn their attacks and skills individually.

I think you're just buying into the hype that Final Fantasy VII got for its "innovation" by being one of the first pieces of eye candy the Playstation.

And I wouldn't go around blaming Enix for this because you obviously have no idea what's going on.

Wait - did Garamond just make a serious post?

No, he didn't.

This is not the random you are looking for

I am really serious about this.

Inciting discussion makes it controversial, not innovative.

I'd have to disagree. If it was the same olde game, no one would care or discuss...

And since your such a stud, why dont you tell me why your in this mofo anyway?

I don't care if you disagree. I care about whether you can support your position with anything even resembling facts.

Ok asshole, you win, your a bigger geek than i am.

If you think that the Guardian Forces and Materia were really customizable to the character, I really don't get why you wouldn't think that anything in X and XII wouldn't be. The Guardian forces and Materia makes it much less "customizable" in the sense that you can basically just transfer either the GF or Materia to another character and basically have the same functioning battler whereas in Final Fantasy X and XII you wouldn't necessarily have that since each character has to learn their attacks and skills individually.

I think you're just buying into the hype that Final Fantasy VII got for its "innovation" by being one of the first pieces of eye candy the Playstation.

And I wouldn't go around blaming Enix for this because you obviously have no idea what's going on.

Ive lived to see this post!!! Thats simply amazing!!!!!!!!!

Ok asshole, you win, your a bigger geek than i am.

This is the equivalent of a guy who just got his ass kicked running away and shouting "You're gonna regret this." It's really pathetic. If you take a position you can't support, at least show some dignity when you get called on it.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I play an RPG, I want to be a geek. I want to explore all the possible strategies, and I want a challenge. I also want to fall in love with the characters, and become so immersed in the storyline that I'd only even think about sidequests when I play for the second time round.

Right from the start of the series, all of these were possible, but eventually, they're disappearing. Personally, I think it started with IX; I was really disappointed that I completed it so quickly, I didn't really enjoy any of the characters, and it wasn't really possible to deviate much.

The games have gotten more and more open-ended and sand-box-y, and with each instalment, they're getting simpler. Sure, there are challenges in XII, but they're mostly tedious, not difficult, and if you power level, you can destroy any boss or hunt without much thought to strategy. Don't get me wrong, I love open-ended gameplay enough to play Oblivion for over 100 hours and counting, but Square Enix are doing it wrong by trying to appeal to everyone and ignoring actual FF fans.

Unfortunately, they'll probably keep going down the same route, and unfortunately, the games will all still get bought by the masses, despite being much worse than the earlier counterparts.

With that said, 5% of the newcomers to the series will probably take the time to play the back-catalogue and fall in love with the earlier gems like I, II and VI, so there is hope yet.

I thought that FFXII will kill the true FF... But now it seems that FF started reviving and it will go on just as perfect as always...

This is the equivalent of a guy who just got his ass kicked running away and shouting "You're gonna regret this." It's really pathetic. If you take a position you can't support, at least show some dignity when you get called on it.

muthafuka you dont know me, im here for the goddamn fun of it! I'd list some element of the game and you'd retort by saying it was done in some blah blah title you bought at gamestop in the bargain bin for ten dollars that your moms gave you for taking out the garbage and cleaning your room for 5 straight days. Its pointless n your clueless.

I got no time for sukkas like you. N next time you exit your pitch black bedroom littered with Justin timberlake, master cheif n HIM posters, dont loose your balance by tripping over mountain dew cans and taco bell leftovers on the way to your anxiety filled day of mingling with acutal real people puto!

muthafuka you dont know me

You lost your credibility and my attention right here.

bitch you still posted

n im still here.

now whaaaa?

Oh wow, discodan, you really suck.

Leave, before you lose the ounce of credibility you have left.

Oh wow, discodan, you really suck.

Leave, before you lose the ounce of credibility you have left.

Sorry homes, im here to stay, but u can leave if you dont like what i have to say about your boy up there. Or hell, defend him. Credibilty is overrated in the shrine, as all some "prIcks" want to do is argue.

Cool, argue with someone else.

A word of caution to future members: When people gang up on you as we are doing to discodan, it generally means that you are the ignorant/stupid cunt and should either fix yourself or fuck off.

A word of caution to future members: When people gang up on you as we are doing to discodan, it generally means that you are the ignorant/stupid cunt and should either fix yourself or fuck off.

Gang up? What are you 12?

wheres your credibility now?

My credibility exists in the perceptions of other people, where it spends its time laughing at you.

I must have touched a nerve or hit a little too close to home with my post above, dont be mad, its all in good fun.... right?

Besides, fucking off is for suckers,

My credibility exists in the perceptions of other people, where it spends its time laughing at you.

Then im glad i amused you, cause you sure hell amuse the crap out of me!

Do you have any idea how pathetic you are? You took a crazy position, couldn't back it up, and started name-calling when you weren't able to keep pressing it. This gives me no reason to be mad at you. I defeated you.

What this does give me reason to do, however, is consider petitioning for you to be banned.

Do you have any idea how pathetic you are? You took a crazy position, couldn't back it up, and started name-calling when you weren't able to keep pressing it. This gives me no reason to be mad at you. I defeated you.

What this does give me reason to do, however, is consider petitioning for you to be banned.

Banned?????????? Meee??
Didnt i see you call someone a "nigger" in another thread??

As for calling me out, you missed my reason for not dealing with a prIck like you, as your next post will prove my point perfectly.

But hell, since i made you "mad" i'll indulge you, FFII
2 diff sprites/character 1 for overland travel and 1 for battle.

Banned?????????? Meee??

Yes.


Didnt i see you call someone a "nigger" in another thread??

Yes.


As for calling me out, you missed my reason for not dealing with a prIck like you, as your next post will prove my point perfectly.

No.


But hell, since i made you "mad" i'll indulge you, FFII
2 diff sprites/character 1 for overland travel and 1 for battle.

No.

And since the last one might require elaboration, what you're describing was done two years earlier in Zelda 2, and probably in many other instances.

Ha!!! too funny.

Was zelda 2 an action game or rpg? Also, the FF sprites had 16 or so animated motions to show emotion and not just a larger character/sword sheild.

Further, racism is never fresh homes.

Ha!!! too funny.

I try. Too bad you haven't realized yet that you're the joke.


Was zelda 2 an action game or rpg?

Irrelevant, but the two games have rather similar systems in that stats increase as you use certain skills. Basically, everything that was new in FFII was done two years earlier in Zelda 2.


Also, the FF sprites had 16 or so animated motions to show emotion and not just a larger character/sword sheild.

This was not particularly impressive or innovative. If you think it was, offer proof that sprites in other games had never had as many animations before then.


Further, racism is never fresh homes.

This is definitely the wrong forum for you.

:rolleyes:

Im still amused, keep going!!

Innovative and impressive if you played it in 1988. And if you say this was done before.... then list the games and prove me wrong. I dont think you can and until then, YOUR WRONG!! lol!!

Your skills increase in golden axe, is that an rpg too? Now im calling BS!! Your credibility is shrinking playa, i can see that your patience is also. Im so glad i have a friend here!!

Mississippi, aw man, i guess its still cool to be a biggot down there, but "cant we all just get along"?

Innovative and impressive if you played it in 1988. And if you say this was done before.... then list the games and prove me wrong. I dont think you can and until then, YOUR WRONG!! lol!!

Bullshit. You introduced the point, so it's your responsibility to back it up.


Your skills increase in golden axe, is that an rpg too? Now im calling BS!! Your credibility is shrinking playa, i can see that your patience is also. Im so glad i have a friend here!!

I'm not saying Golden Axe 2 was an RPG. I'm saying FFII isn't. I made a whole thread a while ago to prove that. Dig it up for more info.

Actually,

I though i proved my points rather clearly.

1. That there was an innovation(s) in gameplay charachters in FF2.
2. You would argue no matter what i would have posted.
and
3. Your a racist prIck

You cant try and prove me wrong on any of those 3 points but i dont think you can do it essay. Just give up and go back to picking on Zachary Faire.

Actually,

I though i proved my points rather clearly.

You fail at thinking, in that case.


1. That there was an innovation(s) in gameplay charachters in FF2.

Disproved.


2. You would argue no matter what i would have posted.

Unprovable.


3. Your a racist prIck

Laughably ignorant.


You cant try and prove me wrong on any of those 3 points but i dont think you can do it essay. Just give up and go back to picking on Zachary Faire.

You are incredibly pathetic. Give it up now.

Dear prIck,


Disproved.

How, when? Do you have no evidence to prove the contrary? Im sticking by my point and saying there is no other game(s) n thats a fact til you prove otherwise.

I just said the world is flat, prove me wrong princess.

Give me an example and i'll gooooo, better yet.... give you another innovation to jump all over, i know you loveeeee that. Heres an idea too.... stop swinging from other posters nuts and continue your planning of world domination by the master race!

Signed, Jesus was not white.

I proved that Zelda 2 did that stuff two years earlier, you ignorant, illiterate fool.

nope, your comparing mario brothers to ff, not a good example.... we were talking rpg's senior el litter ate

Discodan, read these next words very carefully: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

If you can get your brain around that, you will discover that you're wrong and Prak is right.

Also, if you make a claim, it is your responsibility to provide evidence for your claim.

Do you skip every second word or something? You're going in fucking circles. I've already shut down that same argument.

EDIT: Eh, forget it. There's no way he's really that stupid. He's just fucking around.

Do you skip every second word or something? You're going in fucking circles. I've already shut down that same argument.

EDIT: Eh, forget it. There's no way he's really that stupid. He's just fucking around.


BINGO!!!

However, dont try and insult someone and expect to get away scott free, i was having fun with yo a55 the whole time, and i gave up some time ago, page 1 i think. But saying im like someone who just got punched in the mouth is what opened this can of worms. If you ever saw me in person, you'd know that would never happen, by one, 2 or if you "ganged up on me" with a noob.

Your taking this waay too serious. N i can go all day with this. However i'd have to say the ni66a thing was kind of weak, funny, but weak just the same.

FF is my guilty pleasure and i hart the series. All i need to know is who appointed you FFshrine Police. It must be nice knowing so much about someting you hate, hater! Either way, its been fun, for real. Gotta catch a flight, i wont be thinking of you at Jet, LAX or Tao.

See you around sukka!!

I take it back. You are that stupid, just in a different way.