IMMA STICK MY FIST IN SOME MONET PAINTINGS BECAUSE HE USED REAL LIFE INSPIRATION LOL.

I said it could be shopped.

If not, I said it was made using pictures. Which he admited it is. He tries to tell me I know nothing about art, and I tell him I don't use the same approach as him. I work using my knowledge of the human body, using my head to comprehend how every pieces fit together so I can come up with something that's taken entirely in my head(unlike him). He works using pictures and merely copy them. That's not the same approach. Some use models, some study the human anatomy and develop their knowledge about it. Knowing how it works allow you to do like Jim Lee, Burne Hogarth or Yoshitaka Amano. They don't use models to create their pieces (although they certainly did in their early days before getting a firm grasp of how it works in its entirety, in their art classes). They have studied anatomy thouroughly and their pics are authentic. Heck, he might not be pro, but our own NAMOR, certainly a good artist by judging his pieces in the general Discussion forums (in the thread NAMOR INSPIRED) shows that he can draw a convincing art piece using his knowledge alone (the piece with the guy pointing a gun at us from inside his car comes to mind).

Sophiris came in this thread to stir shit with me saying I'm not good because the 3 unfinished pics there weren't made using outside references like his.

That's complete nonsense.


BTW Sophiris, what kind of HB pencil would give this sort of black? Charcoal will be this black, but HB pencils? Oh... of course.
You inked this part already, right?

It is also bizarre for an artist to completely do his shadings during the sketch phase when the piece is expected to be completed using water colors like gouache.

He didn't say you weren't good, he said you could be better. He acknowledged that there was acres of room for improvement in his own work also, so I hardly see it as a slur against you. Not being a particularly talented artist or even well cultured within the field, both of your pieces look excellent to me. Sophoris' picture is better, in my humble opinion, but you have stated that what you have posted is nowhere near your best work, Hynad, and I have absolutely no reason to think that you are lying. Hell, if this is just some of your more leisurely sketches, I cannot wait until you get some of your finer pieces up and that is sincere.

Where my problem is, however, is that you post in that art section and you must therefore accept that, in addition to the praise that you have deservedly garnered, there will also be criticism and I think we all hope that said criticism is of the constructive variety. I really don't see how Sophoris' criticisms haven't been constructive and, to me, it is somewhat disingenuous to turn his criticisms into him merely attempting to stir shit. Maybe you are privy to some information that I am not, a reason perhaps why Sophiris would criticise you just for the sake of it, but superficially it seems as if you have thrown a bit of a tantrum.

You have resorted to name calling and ad hominem long before Sophoris and you have even insinuated that his art requires less talent than your own, sort of the same thing inversed that started this whole debacle in the first place. And, whilst calling for bigger prints may be a legitimate query on your part, your absolute insistence on seeing them in order to judge the authenticity of Sophiris' work seems a little objectionable. If it helps you make a better determination, then of course that is valuable, but if no larger prints exist then, through no fault of his own, Sophiris is made to look a fraud.

I've seen a lot of art pieces to know when it can be debatable if a piece of artwork is authentic or not. That's why I want him to post a bigger size one.
My problem with him so far is that I acknoledge one of my weakpoint, and admitted I was currently working on it. But he came back to me stating that my shading was not good and that people wouldn't hire me because (it would seem) the shading in my pieces there aren't photo-realistic (as if that's what I was trying to achieve in the first place...). He came in here pretending to know better than me, and started shooting his bullshit about shadings and flow. He did the same kind of thing in an other thread. He assumed I had never held an Ultimania book in my hand, which is false. But he still assumed it.

Basically, what he does with me so far is assume to be better than me in stuff he have no ideas if I have or not some knowledge about.

I took his first constructive criticism seriously and admitted I had to work on the stiffness of my characters. But then he added to it as if the stiffness was due to some kind of lack of basic knowledge. That's completely wrong but he insisted on it. You can now see me arguing that the stiffness of my pics is due to the way I come up with my pics: I try to use as less real world references as possible, and use my own understanding of how things look like.

I don't pretend it's perfect, and have been pretty clear from the start. As I said, I am currently studying and hopefully perfecting my understanding of dynamic anatomy, so I can give a more "living" feel to my work. This is to further improve the way I work: with as less outside references as possible.

When I was working with the kind of references that Sophiris is using, I would always feel the work I've achieved was not entirely mine and I always hated that. But I assure you I can do the same as he can, and that this reaction of mine towards him, contrary to what he seems to believe, isn't due to jealousy.
It is a direct reaction to the arrogant way he assumed to know how I work, and how he tried to explain to me how to literally "hold a pencil", when I've been studying art my whole life.

Any respectable artist can come up with some picture references and do just the same as he does. To me, it only shows his own weaknesses when it comes to anatomic knowledge.

But, if I must be impartial here, then I'll say that the color application is impressive. If the pic is authentic, that is.

Hynad,

My bad about the pencil. This is the one that gives you that black color you were asking about. I don't differentiate between this one and my HBs since I carry all my softs together.



Actually since you mentioned it, I will have to disagree with you about Yoshitaka Amano. Yoshitaka Amano most definitely uses real models as well for his artwork. He often uses his own face to get the look he wants for the characters he draws. Here's a book you can read about it. He addresses this very clearly when asked about it by upcoming art students on page 25. Sorry, I don't have a color scanner but the cover is mainly black and white anyway. The resolution kind of sucks since the scanner is old. It never worked the way I wanted it to back in the day when I bought it to try and scan some of my work for a website. The guy who said he would build my site disappeared with the money I paid him for the job anyway so the machine just collects dust.



Anyway, enjoy the book!

Also, you are right about the difficulty of drawing realistic looking people out of your mind. That is what some of the other artists do who I have mentioned are way above me in experience. However, they continually check against the real thing for accuracy. This is why they show up every Tuesday at the local art studio to draw real models. I can draw certain positions very well without a model but others I do very poorly at in the absence of a model so I am continually trying to level my artistic playing field.

The two simple concepts of shading and flow are the two main things that have transformed my work from decent to better. There is some books that talk about how Michelangelo could make 5 different ascending or descending flawless shade changes in a single stroke with a pencil which is absolutely amazing considering that I average only about 3 and some of these artists who frequent the studio can do no more than 4. You ought to try to do this and check with a card to see what you can do. If you can do this well then there becomes less of a need to use so many different HB pencils since you can get multiple shades out of just one and you don't get that annoying line between shades that comes from switching pencils.

You ought to try to do this and check with a card to see what you can do. If you can do this well then there becomes less of a need to use so many different HB pencils since you can get multiple shades out of just one and you don't get that annoying line between shades that comes from switching pencils.

I never calculated the amount of shades I can do, but I can pretty much only use a 2B pencil to render an entire piece and come up with countless nuances.

I personally like the HB pencils because if I put some pressure and use it at a certain direction I can get pretty much the same distinct colors as a few of the numbered B pencils as well. The Ebony not only gives you that jet black color but it is so soft that it is almost as nice a a pastel and can do several of the darker numbered B pencils with less pressure.

I like using the blending stubs as well to fill in the gaps that the pencil misses on the rough surface of the material I am working with. These stubs work great for spreading pastels as well to get a multi-shaded effect. You have to make sure to use a clean stub for each pastel color and pencil or the colors will get mixed and look like crap. If the colors get mixed, I have found it nearly impossible to get the pastel off without damaging the material I am working on so you need to plan ahead when applying color.

Gouache is mainly used to touch up and bring out certain colors. I have found it to be especially helpful when I have laid on too dark of a layer of pastel in a certain area and I need to equalize the color result across the piece. Gouache, since it is liquid is easy to use to fix certain gaps with a small brush that I may have intentionally or unintentionally missed with the blending stubs as well. Gouache can mix a little better than pastels because of the liquid-base so that is the nice feature for this medium.

I have tried watercolor pencils in the past but I don't like to press hard with them on my material to get some color out of them because it leaves a varying levels of marks. On top of that taking a watered-down brush to try and spread the color from the pencils is never very exact so I don't use them anymore.

I don't use the numbered H pencils either because they always give me a distinct line from their hardness even when trying to shade with them I still notice an obvious skip in shade. Also, since I am definitely not trying to get an anime effect with line art either I find it best to avoid them.

My pencil of predilection for doing black and white is 2B. I like it's versatile shading range and am fond of its softness. Most of the time (not seen in the pics I've posted so far) I also mix 2B with charcoal so I can get deeper shades of black. If I go for a gouache or water color piece, then I use the HB pencil to sketch my work beforehand.

But unlike you, I only draw the main lines and leave the shading and texturing for the final medium used. One thing I don't like when I work at home is that whatever the color medium you use (unless it is color pencils) I often find myself missing some colors to keep going, and must stop working to go buy a new tube of that given color. That plus the fact that these mediums cost a lot of money in the long run.

So I've started lately experimenting with computer programs such as Painter X to speed up my work. The technique required to render a piece is the same as with any other medium, only the tool is different (I still do my sketch on paper, then I scan it). Years ago, I would never have considered using this kind of medium to do my work. Back then, it wasn't yet accepted as a viable tool for art and was sulked by the art colleges. But as I grew to learn more about it, and as time passed and saw this medium being more and more accepted as an art tool, I got into it and really enjoyed the versatility and pleasure of its use. I came to realise that what I didn't like about these kind of programs was that there were artists who used their hi-tech features to cheat, like using light flares, distortions, reflections, textures and the likes. I don't like that and concider it to be a weakness for the artists who uses them. Sure the program offers them, but if you're a complete artist, you should be able to do these distortions, flares, textures and reflexions (for example) by drawing the shapes and using the proper colors by your means alone.

Basically, I do exactly the same thing with the program as I would with any conventional medium. But, I don't have to wash anything afterwards or go through lenghty color blending and researches (yeah, I can be lazy like that ^^ ... I always felt these work "phases" were tedious and boring.). It speeds things up and allow me to get this clear image out of my head almost instantly (Basically, it allows me to concentrate on what I enjoy the most, which is producing the image itself). That allows me to produce a lot more pieces in a shorter time period. And at times, it really is a blessing when I have a lot on my work table. I still use conventional mediums when a client is particular with his demand, but when I'm free to choose, I usually go for Painter X.

As for the H pencil you mentioned, I totally agree with you. These pencils are to me completely useless for the same reason you stated.

I don't know anything about computer programs except for bits and pieces that I have heard from a friend who has used them aside from his hand-drawn and oil painted work. I have heard the Painter X program mentioned in this thread and of course I have heard of photoshop before since it seems like a common word used among college students but what is the difference between them? Is one better than the other? I have never tried drawing a light/lens flare in any of my work although that might interesting to draw a piece through the view of a camera lens with some distortion and a lens flare.

As far as shading goes, the reason why I choose to do a lot of it in the beginning either with pencil or pastel is because when you work with anything liquid and you have to apply more than just a little to a material, especially a thin piece of paper, it has the tendency to warp it and that not only sucks for me but clients get ticked when whatever they ordered doesn't look perfect to their expectations.

I have tried charcoal as well but I have never been able to get things looking as good as I could with an Ebony pencil. Charcoal leaves dust on my material, and more dust the harder I press with it, that I sometimes have a hard time cleaning up. Of course I have left some pretty bad fingerprints on some of my drawings as well that I couldn't get off. The pencil shading picks right up in layers with little work from an eraser so tend to stick to that medium to start with. I like to draw with charcoal if I am just going for flow in the model class but for any kind of work that I would sell I can't in good faith tell a client that it will cost several hundred dollars when I can't guarantee my best work with such a medium.

You are definitely right about the cost of art products as well. It is like some companies just want to beat you down and leave you poor and penniless if you want to use their product. The profit margin must be extremely high. I honestly can't see their products being low in sales since nearly every high school, college, university, and tradional art trade school has an art program.

I tend to draw a lot of fantasy stuff, so I often use light flares or similar light effects in my drawings. Particularly if there's a wizard on the piece.

As for charcoal, of course it puts dust on your work, but just blow gently and the residues will go away without putting any marks on your work.

I haven't worked much with the ebony pencil as I think its too soft to fit the way I work.

Oh by the way, Amano sugessts in that book I scanned in, that in order to draw facial features like Anger, Happiness, Sadness, etc. realistically we should pay very close attention to others facial features when we speak to them so we have a clear idea in our minds what a character should look like with that same feature. I have yet to get a skeleton model that I can pose for drawing but Amano frequently utilizes this method and has one in his New York studio he can work with.

As far as I am concerned Amano has better understanding of color theory than any artist I have ever seen. He understands how to utilize analogous color schemes, complimentary color schemes, and nature-based color schemes flawlessly in his work. I had an opportunity to go to a Final Fantasy Art Exhibit for his work in Ueno, the art district of Tokyo back in 2002 and I will have to say that the colors on his paintings are about ten times as brilliant as the photographs we get of his art in books that are sold in either Japan or America.

If you ever get such an opportunity in the future to see his work in real life, who cares about the cost, by all means go. He makes my coloring on my work look like child's play to be completely honest.

I will try that the next time I work with charcoal. I had blown on my paper a little before but since I had worried about accidentally spitting on it I mostly just gently shook the paper.

Oh by the way, Amano sugessts in that book I scanned in, that in order to draw facial features like Anger, Happiness, Sadness, etc. realistically we should pay very close attention to others facial features when we speak to them so we have a clear idea in our minds what a character should look like with that same feature. I have yet to get a skeleton model that I can pose for drawing but Amano frequently utilizes this method and has one in his New York studio he can work with.

Of course! In order to draw a convincing human figure you have to pay attention to how it is done, study the myology and osteology and comprehend them in order to adequately represent it in your work.

When I say I try to work with as less outside references as possible, I don't mean that I create everything out of nothing. What appear in my work are countless hours of analysis and study. It's not perfect and will probably never be. But that's what I prefer to do, and I like seeing how my understanding of anatomy gets better with each pieces I achieve. There are still times that I don't have the choice to use a model, or photographic references (when doing a portrait for example) but it is when I start from nothing and see the pictures builds itself up and become more concrete that I truly enjoy what I'm doing. Especially if the end result is more than satisfying, which usually happen when I finish a piece, but never stays so for long. As I tend to notice every tiny flaws here and there when I look at it weeks later. Like most artists, I am pretty critical about my own work, even if you probably didn't think so at first during our dicsussion here.



As far as I am concerned Amano has better understanding of color theory than any artist I have ever seen. He understands how to utilize analogous color schemes, complimentary color schemes, and nature-based color schemes flawlessly in his work. I had an opportunity to go to a Final Fantasy Art Exhibit for his work in Ueno, the art district of Tokyo back in 2002 and I will have to say that the colors on his paintings are about ten times as brilliant as the photographs we get of his art in books that are sold in either Japan or America.

There are many others, like Alex Ross for example (who uses photo references like you, btw), but Amano is certainly among the greatest.


If you ever get such an opportunity in the future to see his work in real life, who cares about the cost, by all means go. He makes my coloring on my work look like child's play to be completely honest.

I won't miss him if he comes in Ontario one day (for some reason, I doubt he'll ever come to Quebec, so if he comes to Canada, he'll probably go to Toronto and I'll have to drive there). He's one of my favorite artist and the uniqueness of his style and the perfection of his applications and technique puts him above most of his contemporaries.

BTW, I'm still waiting for a higher resolution version of that image of yours.

I am working on a few things right now. I will get some new pics posted soon.

Same here.

same here

I am working on a few things right now. I will get some new pics posted soon.

I would encourage you to do so in your own thread though. ^_-

I would encourage you to do so in your own thread though. ^_-

Roger that.

In regards to the 3rd pic---It's kinda obvious that you did the right side first right? (don't worry I do that all the time!) I mean it has the most detail, and the darkest pencils, and generally just looks... for sale.
So why not cut the pic in half? Then you can sell the right side and use the proceeds to buy more number 2 pencils to darken the left side and then you have 2 pics for the price of one!
That last little joke was just terrible... but seriously I'm not kidding!

I have another criticism about your pencils but it's actually more of comment. I don't wanna go into techniques you already know about like Sophiris allegedly did so instead I'll tell a short story. But get ready cause I'm about to drop some knowledge!
I went to the Gallery for the Society of New York Illustrator's like 4 years ago and was blown away. One grizzled old guy in particular was super awesome at drawing cowboys and Indians but could draw horses better than anybody I've ever seen. He did photo-realistic, cartoon, watercolor, oils, sketchy, moody, caricatured, you name it! I knew he was awesome when he grabbed me by the arm and said "Boy I've been drawin horses fer 50 years ya know that?" I talked to him for like 30 minutes straight and then shook his hand and walked around some more. When I came back he was talking to a buncha freshman college noobs and they were asking him a buncha questions about pencil techniques. I kinda interrupted in a joking way with the comment "yeah, but how do you know when your finished?" He turned and looked at me angrily as if he had never seen me before in his life, pointed his finger in the air and said "UNTIL THEY DON'T LOOK LIKE PENCILS ANYMORE!"
This is me
http://mullet2dmax.deviantart.com/

ah ah, yeah, well, like I said, they aren't finished, right?

So I guess this won't apply to my drawings. :P




And just as a side note about that third drawing. There were many sketch lines here and there that I edited out before posting them here. And yeah, I started detailing the right part of the pic first.

AH you poor thing. I feel bad for you so here is your reply and my first post. A good thing for both of us. And I love your drawings, sweet. stainless steel wire (http://www.cn-SteelPipe.net) stainless steel strip (http://www.cn-SteelPipe.net) smoke detector (http://www.heiman.com.cn/alarm.asp) gas detector (http://www.heiman.com.cn/alarm.asp)

it must be really boring here, i guess