Tidus 66
10-17-2005, 05:17 PM
rinoa heartilly, maybe is just a lie, and i personnaly don't want to believe but if you want to read more about this, go to www.gamefaqs.com, there is a faq that talks about this theory, i think more powerful arguments can be found there, and i don't want to cause any disturbs like the jackass theory Aerith can survive, if you treat her better tha the other girls
I get the point! I'm sorry for the post, but i just thought it would be interesting, and certainly i don't want to be flamed, so i'm sorry
This highly controversial theory has become immensely (in)famous ever since
it was first conceived of. Whoever it was who first came up with the idea, we
don't know, because so many ripped him/her off that it's become impossible
to tell by now.
The theory basically states that Ultimecia is in fact an older Rinoa.
In other words, after the game ended, a string of events was set into motion,
ultimately leading to Rinoa ending up "becoming" Ultimecia.
This simple idea has been subject to much hate, and much praise too. It seems
you either love it or hate it.
Now, the theory has been argued for by many people, and there are numerous
websites all presenting a case(usually the exact same arguments with a few
nuances here and there), but almost all of the websites and individuals who
stood up for it couldn't produce a consistent and good set of arguments
supporting their claim. Thus the theory has often been dismissed as
impossible or completely illogical.
However, that is certainly not the case. I will in this section present
everything on the subject which has accumulated over the years. I will
present all "hints" that the R=U theory uses, and also show how the theory is
perfectly possible, in other words that there are no logical contradictions
that arise when you state that Rinoa does in fact equal Ultimecia.
That is all I can do really. You'll have to decide for yourself if you think
the "hints" presented are strong enough or not. After all, plausibility is
purely opinionated in such a matter, so it's your own choice whether or not
to believe it(because it certainly can't be proven or disproven).
THE BASIS
The R=U theory is a proposition of what might happen to Rinoa after
a set of assumptions are made. To be precise, those assumptions are:
1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal
human.
2) Rinoa wouldn't give away her powers to some other innocent girl, and would
instead want to keep them herself.
3) Rinoas mental strength isn't all that good if she's all alone(ie. without
Squall and Co).
You may notice that assumptions 2 and 3 are really subsets of a greater
assumption, or rather interpretation of the plot; Rinoas psyche.
Obviously everyone will form an opinion of the main characters psyche during
the game, and this theory is based on an interpretation of Rinoa which makes
assumptions 2 and 3 perfectly logical and plausible. Assumption 1 is
discussed at length later on, so right now we'll assume all assumptions are
correct.
It is quite trivial to see that once the three(or as explained, two)
assumptions are drawn, we can deduce that Rinoa will outlive Squall and all
her friends. They will all die eventually, whether it be of age, illness or
in combat. Rinoa will witness her true love and Knight(Squall) die, as well
as her father and all her other friends, die. They will die and she will not.
I mentioned that Squall is Rinoas knight. Just to remind you what we know
about a sorceress knight:
Edea tells us that a sorceresses Knight is supposed to help maintain the
sorceresses mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure
of the people(remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even
an organisation made solely for killing them!).
Adel for instance, had no Knight, and I don’t think I have to remind you
what kind of a sorceress Adel was!
An example of a good knight, would be Edeas knight, Cid.
So we have a Rinoa, all alone in a world filled with people who generally
want her dead, fear her and hate her, knowing that SeeD still exists to
kill people like her. We have a Rinoa in this scenario, without a Knight.
Based on the aforementioned assumptions, we can now see that Rinoa could very
easily be Ultimecia, driven insane by the grief and pressure, probably
driven to severe paranoia. Eventually, she is so warped that there's hardly
any trace of the old Rinoa in her. Instead, she is now the evil Ultimecia,
trying to compress time and absorb all sorceress powers and eventually all
time and space itself.
I should add that if Rinoa continued to use GFs after the game ended, her
insanity would doubtlessly be "amplified". GFs are very effective at removing
memory after all. Remember Squall. He had forgotten almost all his childhood
except the strongest memories of Ellone, and he'd only used GFs for 4-5
years. Of course this added assumption cannot realistically be backed up by
anything over than personal opinions on what happens after the game, so it
doesn't really count all that much.
Rinoas insanity could none the less be driven to a point where she had
"become" Ultimecia, basically forgetting about her old self, even forgetting
her love, Squall.
Now, you may ask yourself what "hints" supposedly back up this claim?
Well, here is a compilation of all information which could be considered a
hint. I will also include the alternate explanations preferred by those who
don't believe the theory.
1) The first hint was provided by Druff from Gamefaqs. Can't thank you enough
for this one!
"In ancient Greece there was a king named Mausolus and a queen named
Artemisia. When Mausolus died, Artemisia was so grief stricken and devoted
that she made it the rest of her life's work to build him the greatest
tomb ever built, which she did. The tomb was so amazing that it's one of
the Seven Wonders of the World, and it's why extravegant tombs are known
as "mausoleums" to this day.
Well, in the Japanese version of FFVIII, Ultimecia is spelled
"arutimishia". It's entirely possible that her name was intended to be
Artemisia, but the translators mistakenly thought it was supposed to be
Ultimecia, since the spell Ultima is spelled "arutima" in Japanese."
End quote.
Legend also goes that every day, Artemisia would mix some of his ashes into
a drink and thus slowly consume her dead husband. It certainly seems like
Artemisia didn't handle the loss of her love that well, and she seems to
have gone somewhat insane, what with dedicating the rest of her life to his
tomb and slowly consuming him!
Consider then that Ultimecia is called "Artemisia" in some translations
(German for instance).
In history, Artemisia and Mausolus were also brother and sister. In the
game, Rinoa and Squall are as close to sister and brother as possible
without involving incest, something Square would obviously never do.
Laguna, Squalls father, and Julia, Rinoas mother were deeply in love, yet
were torn apart. Was this Squares way of hinting at a very close
connection, almost sibling-like?
Also in history, Artemisia is attacked while she builds the tomb, yet she,
despite being greatly outnumbered, kills all the attacking enemies.
Ultimecia single-handedly takes out all the SeeDs who attack her.
Is Ultimecia a mistranslation of Artemisia, the grieving widow? Did Rinoa
lose Squall, and become the games Artemisia?
Of course, it may just be coincidence, or perhaps Square was referring to
the spell Ultima(Arutima). Either way it's very interesting.
2) Ultimecias castle is anchored facing the very place where Squall and Rinoa
decided to meet if they lost eachother. Perhaps whatever remained of Rinoa
inside Ultimecia drove her to placing her castle right there.
Alternatively, the Orphanage is the birthplace of SeeD, and since Ultimecia
obviously hates SeeD, it could just as well be a symbolic statement of her
victory over SeeD(well, her apparent victory).
3) The only FMV flash we see of Ultimecia appears flashing over Rinoas face
not once, not twice, but three times in succession during the ending(the
crazy sequence). She appears closer for each flash, and in the third and
final flash, we see Ultimecias piercing eyes staring right at us from Rinoas
face.
Is this hinting towards the future? Perhaps. But alternatively, Edeas face
also flashes over Rinoa once before, although not nearly as dramatically
and effectfully as Ultimecias. And since this is inside a Time warp of some
sort, it would perhaps be wrong to single out any one event as meaningful.
Either way, the three flashes are there.
4) During the ending FMV, it would appear that Rinoas white wings turn black
for a moment. It's after Ultimecias face flashes, right after the other
major flashing sequence(notably not over Rinoas face, but rather inside an
"opening" in the screen). We see Rinoa falling towards us and briefly it
appears the wings change colour. The only other sorceress we see with wings
is Ultimecia, and her wings are black. Rinoas wings are white...
A similar scene occurs in the opening FMV, although not to the same extent
(although easier spotted than the one in the final FMV). Rinoa is first
shown amid a whole lot of white feathers, then later on amid black feathers.
Of course, both scenes could merely be indicative of the evil that will
occur in the game, and how she is polluted by sorceress powers and/or how
Ultimecia possesses her.
Still something to think about either way.
5) Rinoa says in the Ragnarok: "I don't want the future. I want the present
to stand still. I just want to stay here with you..." and that Artemisia is
trying to compress time.
Of course, since it would be too strange to think Ultimecia remembered Squall
and all(seeing as she tries to kill him) this can't really be said to be
indicative. Although it could be perceived as subtle hinting by Square.
6) This is not as of yet proven, but it seems highly likely that it is
correct. This hint is how the japanese FF8 manual describes Rinoa:
"A beautiful and enigmatic woman, kind-hearted and driven to succeed.
A cheerful girl whose 'mood maker' liveliness and gentleness touches people
without discrimination. She's honest about her feelings and readily speaks
what she thinks. However, in time she ends up becoming warped..."
It's obviously that last line which is of interest here, and it speaks for
itself really.
This is part of the original text
1) Why do you say that a Sorceress has prolonged lifespan?
--------------------------------------------------------------
A Sorceress can be killed like a human.
This is a fact, seeing as you kill two Sorceresses and attempt to kill a
third. Another way of demonstrating this is to realize that it was a
Sorceress that created Seed. SeeD was created to kill any Sorceress who
goes evil. Surely, if a Sorceress was plain out immortal, why bother? And
a Sorceress would know whether or not sorceresses are immortal or not,
surely!
However, what if a sorceress cannot die while she has her powers?
Let’s change our attention to a line uttered by Edea in the ending. A line
so easily forgotten and overlooked, yet so crucial to this theory:
"In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her
powers".
What is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying in peace, obviously but
what does that entail?
If dying in peace is normally, what is the opposite of dying in peace? Not
dying normally? What does that mean?
Surely, it is possible that ‘not dying in peace’ could mean that the
sorceress was still alive, just not ‘properly’.
You could think of a sorceress being inflicted with a mortal wound, yet
unable to die. We even have a source who has played the Japanese game who
says that in the Japanese version, Edea actually says "A sorceress cannot
die while she has her powers". For those of you who doubt this, here is a
copy of his post after I asked him what Edea said in the ending:
NOTE: I never made a note of his username, and the topic he posted in
dissapeared ages ago, so I cannot credit a name here. If anyone knows
who it was, please contact me.
-----
"During the final battle, right before Ultimecia summons Griever:
Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.
After fighting Griever for a while:
Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!
After that...
Ultimecia: The introductions are over! Now, I shall junction myself to
Griever!
That's all that has directly to do with everyone's favourite
lion/ring/necklace/insignia/commercial goldmine. Now, on to Edea!
Edea: Excuse me, did a little boy come this way?
Squall: You don't need to worry, it'll be okay. In the end, that kid can't
go anywhere.
Edea: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel so sorry for him, but there's
nothing that can be done.
(Ultimecia appears)
Squall: ....She's still alive?!
Edea: ...A sorceress, is it?
Squall: Yes, Mama Sensei [so much more amusing than "Matron"]. Though I
was sure we had already defeated her.... step back please.
Edea: It's all right. There is no further need to fight. That sorceress is
only seeking someone who will succeed her sorceress' power. A sorceress
cannot die while still holding on to the sorceress' power. I, too.... am a
sorceress, so I understand. I shall take on this sorceress' power. I don't
want a child to become a sorceress.
Sorceress Ultimecia: I cannot yet... allow myself to....fade away.
Squall: Mama Sensei!
Edea: Is it... over now I wonder?
Squall: Perhaps.
Edea: You called me "Mama Sensei." Who are you?
Squall: SeeD. A SeeD of Balamb Garden.
Edea: SeeD? Garden?
Squall: Mama Sensei thought up both SeeD and Garden. Garden raises SeeDs.
SeeDs defeat the sorceress.
Edea: What are you talking about? You are... that child's future, aren't
you?
Squall: .... Mama Sensei.
Edea: So, please go home. This isn't your place.
Childhood Squall: ..... Sis is gone. Am I all alone? Who's heeeeee?
Edea: It doesn't concern you. It's better if you don't know anything.
You're the only Squall for whom it is all right to stay here. Do you know
how to get back? Are you okay on your own?
It seems that a little bit of clarification on Ultimecia's final line is in
order, for the general edification of the world. Heh heh. The verb that is
used in the Japanese is "kieru," which can mean to fade, to disappear, to
vanish, to dissolve, to cease being or to be extinguished, and can be used
as a euphemism for "to die." I really should have provided a note on that,
in order to elucidate what would otherwise simply have passed by unknown.
Now, to insert my own thoughts in this little matter; I shall say from the
top that I am of the mind that Sorceresses have a limited lifespan, and
are, therefore, subject to death, as any other human would be. Edea's line
of "A sorceress cannot die while still a sorceress is immortal as long as
she has her power, or that she cannot "rest in peace," as it were, until
her powers are given to another candidate. Ultimecia doesn't WANT
to die; that much is evident in her words. She's telling herself that she
can't die like this, and the way she phrases it, in Japanese, is in the
form of a sort of "proprietary imperative" (I am not a linguist, so the
proper jargon is something with which I am not entirely familiar. If
anyone who is familiar with Japanese linguistics and the classifying
terminology should read this, feel free to instruct): taken at COMPLETE
literal value (i.e. if one were to translate it word-for-word into
English), one would get "Still... disappearing manner.... to it one must
not go." Ugly as it is when ascribed according English semantic terms,
it's a fairly common sentential construction in Japanese which expresses
the fitness (or lack thereof) of a given action.
Whoa, that was a digression. Shoot me.
Anyway, the implication seems to be that Ultimecia is not willingly
abandoning her powers, but rather, her body is goading her to proffer them
up unto someone else, so that it can do the natural thing and expire.
I would imagine, and this is pure supposition, that a sorceress who has
been ostensibly "killed" yet is unable to give up her power would suffer
tremendous pain; her body wants to die, and *is* dying, but cannot seek
the grave until it is free of that which Hyne bequeathed.”
END QUOTE.
-----
Does this source strike you as bad? Feel free to try and find an equally
convincing source, but I am quite convinced by this.
As long as a sorceress has her powers she cannot die. It seems that when a
sorceress is 'killed', she gives away her powers simply because of how
painful it would be to be frozen in the dying moment forever.
Note that this doesn’t prove sorceress lifespan as being prolonged because
we don’t know if a sorceress could 'die' in body from old age or not. But
we’ll return to that later.
We shall now examine other ingame events relevant to sorceress
immortality:
When Adel is captured, a great effort is made to have her sealed, and not
killed. The sorceress who has waged war on the world for years, who has
murdered countless people, hated by everyone including her country, is not
killed. She is sealed in space.
Well, the second of the two propositions given above tells us that they
didn’t kill Adel because that would mean a new Sorceress anyway!
Why let some other poor woman suffer the consequences of becoming a
Sorceress, when they could instead shoot her up in space, confining her
powers ‘forever’. Whilst doing this, research could be done on Adel too,
so as to help defeat any new Sorceress. One hint at this is the Odines
Bangle. It seems too complex for Odine to have constructed it without
research from a Sorceress. And just look at the space station. It seems
hard to think that they are doing nothing but check the locks!
Of course, if the lifespan theory is not true, there are still motives
that can explain why they chose not to kill her.
Lagunas goodness could be an explanation. Research could be another. Both
of them combined could give a good motive for shooting her up in space
instead of just killing her. Some say it is because they couldn’t kill
her, but that doesn’t sound plausible. Consider that Adel needed "days" to
wake up properly from her sleep, and if they were to kill her, they could
turn off the seal, run in and kill her easily before she had even begun to
open her eyes!
Finally, one may ask why Adel, Edea and Ultimecia gave up their powers
although the lifespan theory means they can live forever.
Edea is simple. Since Edea was not in control of her body, we can assume
that it was Ultimecia who gave up her powers. Now, a completely broken
Edea would be of no use to Ultimecia, while a fresh and "rookie"
sorceress would be much more useful, so that is perfectly plausible.
Both Adel and Ultimecia can be explained in terms of the pain the body is in
when frozen in the dying moment. I doubt even a sorceress could handle that
much pain for too long.
So until a more convincing source comes along, we can prove sorceress
immortality, and show how it makes perfect sense in the storyline, but we
cannot prove prolonged lifespan. Here Hyne enters the picture.
Remember in the story about him, he creates a few men and women for slaves,
takes a nap, and then wakes up and finds them to have grown beyond his
control. That means his nap lasted for anything from a few hundred years
to several thousand years, plenty of evidence that he in any case had
prolonged life, and any sorceress after him could have inherited some, if
not all of that gift.
This is also more of the text
No point arguing this, because there's a thread talking about this
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