I realize from looking over this Forum that quite a few people don't believe in the concept of Rinoa being Ultimecia, but that there's some who do. I have recently acquired what pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin of the theory. Read on if you're interested. I just thought I'd try to share it with as much of the Final Fantasy community as possible in coming here:

(Note: In this article, the term "Sorceress" is not used, save for when quoting the North American translation of Final Fantasy VIII or DarkAngel's translations of the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide; "Witch" is used instead, as this was the term used in the Japanese version of the game, as well as the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide itself.)

There are several aspects of the game Final Fantasy VIII that have led many to believe that Rinoa may, perhaps, one day become the Witch who rules the future: Ultimecia. I will here analyze all aspects of this theory and explain why these aspects of the game do not necessarily indicate that to be the case, based on logical reasoning, many debates held over the course of several years -- particularly with one known as "Sir Bahamut" -- and official materials published by Square-Enix. Ultimately, I wish to show that the theory is in no way plausible.

I will address each matter in the theory and explain how it is used to support the theory, then explain why it fails to or why it succeeds in supporting the theory. At the end of the article, I will offer a point that disproves the matter beyond all reasonable assumption. If you wish to skip everything else and go straight to this proof, skip ahead to the part of the article entitled "Conclusion."

-Witches and Immortality-

The theory works off of the assumption that Witches have immortality as its core concept. Often-cited evidence of this is that Edea's facial features are far younger than should be the case for a woman married to a 40 year old man (as her husband, Cid Kramer, happens to be). Another bit of evidence offered in this regard is that Ultimecia needed to go further into the past to cast Time Compression than the generation the game takes place in. When she finally is sent far enough back, it is into Adel's younger self that she is sent. The assumption here is that Ultimecia must have needed to go much further back in time, and that Adel, consequently, has lived longer than a normal lifespan.

Response: There's no reason to assume this to be the case, for starters. Edea's face certainly looks more developed and mature than those of Ellone, Selphie, Quistis, or Rinoa. She certainly has the appearance of a woman at least in her thirties. For that matter, even if she didn't, there's little reason to assume she wouldn't have married an older man.

As for Adel, considering how little we know of the mechanics of Time Compression, it's hardly a safe forest to venture into when looking for support for this notion. We don't know the limits of Junction Machine Ellone's power to send Ultimecia into the past. It may have been one year shorter than where she needed to be or 100 years too short.


-Witches and Persecution-

Assuming for a moment that Witches are immortal, let's imagine what would happen when Squall, Rinoa's Knight and her centre of balance, dies. Now also consider the results when her friends have also died. And her father. And Squall's father, Laguna. Now recall the persecution that Witches face simply of who they are (mentioned by Ultimecia in Deling City), and imagine how much greater that fear and persecution will be in the aftermath of Ultimecia's war in the past. Rinoa would be left alone to fend for herself in a world that feared and hated her simply because of who she was. While Squall's father was the President of Esthar, and her own father, Fury Caraway, was likely in line to be the next ruler of Galbadia, there's hardly reason to assume that their successors are going to be quite as sympathetic toward Rinoa -- and Witches in general -- as they themselves would have been toward her.

Response: The problem here is that the matter of Witches being immortal still needs to be substantiated. If that could be proven, then it would certainly follow logically that Rinoa would face such persecution. However, it cannot follow at all if the matter of Witch immortality remains unsubstantiated.


-Witches and Dying in Peace-

Near the ending of the game, just before Ultimecia's death, Edea makes this very important statement: "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers." What, then, does she mean? Does she mean that dying without first giving up one's powers would mean a bad afterlife existance for a Witch? Or does she mean that a Witch must simply be free of her powers to die?

This could, perhaps, be taken to mean "Remaining alive, but not properly, forever caught in the dying moment until the Witch is free of her powers." If this is so, then it may well be that Witches are immortal after all, if they can't even die until they are free of their powers. In fact, the Japanese line that Edea speaks here is simply "A Witch cannot die while still holding on to the Witches' power." It may be that in the case of Witches who do die, they're either giving up their powers so as to be free of the pain of death, or their body is simply forcing them to surrender their powers.

Response: A strong point that may support the theory, but on its own doesn't do so, if only because SeeD fights and defeats 13 Witches during the game, all of whom die either immediately after being dealt a fatal blow or shortly thereafter. If such a concept of remaining as long as was desired were present, it seems more reasonable to assume that the story would have made a point of demonstrating it.


-Witches and Hyne-

Hyne is said to have been the progenitor of the Witch Embodiment powers. The story of Hyne also goes that he created Homo Sapiens, then took a nap while they worked. When he awoke, he found that they had multiplied beyond his capacity to control them. In order for them to have multiplied so, it must be that his nap lasted a few hundred to several thousand years. This must mean that Hyne is immortal. Considering that the Witch Embodiment originates from him, it may well be that the Witches inherited increased longevity, or full immortality.

Response: This segment suffers from the usual problem that most points in the theory do: A lack of support for the notion.


-Witches and Appearances-

While it may be argued that Ultimecia's gray hair -- something that normally wouldn't happen except in the case of aging -- is indicative of her lacking immortality, it should be kept in mind that when possessing Edea, Ultimecia changed the length of her host body's hair from several feet to a few inches in seconds. For that matter, through their use of Black Magicks, many Witches display physical abnormalities, whether they be the veins on Edea's face and her elongated fingers, Adel's muscular appearance and discoloured skin, or the larger-than-normal bodies of the eleven Witches encountered by SeeD as they made their way to the future.

Another point often brought up to contest this aspect of the theory is that Adel seeking a successor suggests that Witches do have a limited lifespan, but it should be remembered that Adel was at war with the world, and her own subjects hated her. It may simply be that she feared being assassinated without having a chosen successor already selected. She wouldn't want to endure the pain of her death constantly until having found one.

Response: These are good points, which I cannot find fault with. On their own, they don't prove -- or even suggest -- the immortality of Witches, but coupled with a strong suggestion that the concept is plausible, they would certainly support the notion.

It should be kept in mind, though, that Witches have a natural instinct to want to choose a successor that they feel is fitting for the power. As the game's tutorial says, they avoid spreading their powers too thin:


Sorceress

The legend goes that the Great Hyne created people. The sorceresses were given a fragment of Hyne's own power. It's hard to determine how many sorceresses exist today, for many keep their powers concealed. However, it is believed that they avoid spreading their power too thin.

-Witches and Wings-

In the opening FMV, Rinoa is shown at one point emerging from a group of white feathers, the same colour as the feathers on her wings. She's later shown emerging from a group of black feathers, the same colour as the feathers of Ultimecia's wings. Ultimecia is the only Witch aside from Rinoa to be shown to have wings. This may be an indication of who Rinoa will become, her soul tainted and dark after the loss of her Knight. She is then no longer an "Angel," but a "Fallen Angel" instead, this represented through her black wings.

Response: Wings and feathers are a motif of the main Witches in the game. Edea's dress has black feathers around the collar, Adel has two spiky wing-like protrusions extending from her back, Rinoa has her white feathery wings, and Ultimecia has her black, somewhat spiny, feathered wings. With this in mind, all that's represented here is a connection between Witches, not a connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia alone. The connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia is that their wings are black and white, representing good and evil, opposing representations of these concepts, and opposite representations of the use of the Witch Embodiment.


-Ultimecia's Words During The Final Battle-

During the final battle with Ultimecia, her words may illustrate that she believes that the things one cares about will slip away from them inevitably, as Squall and Rinoa's other friends would have were she immortal:


"Reflect on your..."
"Childhood..."
"Your sensation..."
"Your words..."
"Your emotions..."
"Time..."
"It will not wait..."
"No matter..."
"...how hard you hold on."
"It escapes you..."

This may have been an attempt on Rinoa's part to reach out to Squall.

Response: Considering that Ultimecia makes no other attempt to "reach out to Squall" during the game, merely trying to kill him each time she encounters him instead, it's hardly plausible that she's suddenly doing that at this point. For that matter, It's not even clear what Ultimecia's really talking about here. She may be talking about time itself. It may be a round about way of her telling them that their defeat is inevitable. Personally, I think it's most likely another reference to everything having been fated, even from Squall and the others' childhoods. Whatever it is, there's nothing to suggest it to have anything to do with Squall or to suggest that this is Rinoa talking.


-Rinoa and Possible Amnesia-

The fact that Ultimecia displays no recognition on a personal level or any affection toward Squall is often cited as evidence that she couldn't be Rinoa, as Rinoa loved Squall and wouldn't seek to hurt him as Ultimecia does. However, this fails to consider that through junctioning GFs, or simply going insane due to loneliness and persecution, Rinoa may well have forgotten about Squall. Insane people do insane things, after all, and Rinoa's consistently displayed as someone who needs other for her to feel secure. We can be certain that Ultimecia at least had some contact with a GF before Griever, as Tiamat was a GF she had taken control of:

(Stated when using Scan on Tiamat.)

Tiamat
Used to be a GF. Became a monster under Ultimecia's power. Its Dark Flare destroys all enemies.

For that matter, a Knight is supposed to provide a Witch with balance and remind them of that part of them which is a normal person. Without Squall, Rinoa could have descended into madness.

Response: We're not given any reason to assume that Rinoa would have continued to use Guardian Forces after Ultimecia's war had ended. While it's certainly possible that she did, without us having reason to believe it so, it's not a valid point in supporting a theory such as this one. As for going insane, while that would be a possibility, it's absolutely absurd to assume that Rinoa wouldn't recognize Squall or show affection to him when it was losing him and facing persecution without him that would supposedly drive her to become Ultimecia in the first place.


-Time Compression-

Recall that onboard the Ragnarok, Rinoa expressed a desire for time to stand still so that she could remain with Squall:


Rinoa
"I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to
stay here with you..."

Now, recall that Ultimecia intended to use Time Compression, a Spell that would cause all time to exist in a single instance. While this is not necessarily the same thing as "making time stand still," Rinoa's words on the Rangarok do express a desire to control time. It may well be that Rinoa wanted to meet Squall again and be with him in a moment of peace forever. Having gone insane, however, she may well have forgotten her desire to use Time Compression to meet Squall, and then decided to use the Spell for other purposes. Insane people do insane things, as has been said before.

Response: As with so much of this theory, this requires unsubstantiated assumptions. Aside from the obvious fact that Ultimecia could have met Squall again -- if that's what she so desired -- by simply using Junction Machine Ellone and going to the past, there's also the even more obvious fact that Ultimecia's goals as expressed by the game and hinted at by the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide had nothing to do with Squall. Ultimecia's goal was to avoid her fated death at Squall's hands, and to then become one with all that existed in the universe, though with mastery over it, essentially becoming God in the process.

We know this for the following reasons:

1) Ultimecia knew of her fated death, addressing Squall as "the legendary SeeD" destined to face her:


Sorceress Edea
"So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"

Squall
(What is she talking about?)

Sorceress Edea
"I must say that I am impressed."
"...An impressive nuisance. Your life ends here, SeeD."

2) Before battling Ultimecia at the story's end, she tells SeeD that she will send them to a dimension beyond their imagination, where she will rule and they will be her slaves:


"Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs."
"The price for your meddling is death beyond death."
"I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining."
"There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

3)Using Scan on Ultimecia during the first part of the final battle with her will reveal that she used Time Compression to gain the power of all other Witches throughout time:


Ultimecia
A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and
taking power from all sorceresses.

4) Using Scan on Ultimecia's final form will reveal that she was absorbing all time and space into herself during that battle:


Ultimecia
Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing all existence as we speak.

5) In the epilogue to the Scenario section of the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide, Selphie will ponder Ultimecia's motivations and state that she believes that Ultimecia was simply trying to avoid her fated death:

(Translated by DarkAngel)

�you know, I just thought of something right now. What was Ultimecia thinking? She was trying to survive in the only way she knew how, I think. Was she trying to reach all the way out to the past to compress time, so that she could try to erase the fate she knew was in store for her�? Thinking about it that way, maybe what I�m writing is one-sided.

There's no reason whatsoever to believe that Ultimecia's goal had anything to do with being with Squall. The most her goal involved him was in killing him so that he couldn't kill her.


-The Location of Ultimecia's Castle-

This ties in with another aspect of the theory: Ultimecia's desire -- subconscious or otherwise -- to meet Squall. This concept is here illustrated by her having her castle anchored near the Orphanage, which had the flower field behind it where Rinoa and Squall had promised to meet. The castle would have actually been facing the flower field. It's rather suspicious that her castle should be there of all places.

Response: The game offers a perfectly valid suggestion for Ultimecia's Castle being where it was without there being any reason to believe that she was waiting for Squall. Ultimecia hated SeeDs, and she had slaughtered the remaining SeeDs of her era shortly before casting the Time Compression Spell, made evident by their bodies being scattered across the beach behind Edea's House:

Linkage ().

They don't appear to have been dead for long, so it's not as though Ultimecia built the castle, killed the SeeDs and then parked it there many years before with the intention of it remaining there forever. Also, the castle floats. Why build a floating castle to begin with if you're going to park it in one spot?

The dead bodies of those SeeDs are a testament to Ultimecia's reason for anchoring the castle there. It makes much more sense -- especially in light of Ultimecia's hatred of the SeeDs and the obvious short amount of time that those SeeDs had been dead -- to conclude that Ultimecia parked the castle there and slaughtered the remaining SeeDs to settle a grudge before casting Time Compression. Granted, it's possible that she located her castle there from the start and that the SeeDs made an attempt to launch an assault against her shortly before she casted Time Compression, but this isn't suggested by the game nor as plausible.

The castle being located above where the SeeDs had been brought together and raised for a time also allows for another point of emphasis on the Fated Children concept (the game's opening is called "Liberi Fatali," which means "Fated Children"), as did the Orphanage being Squall and the others' point of focus when passing through the Time Compression wave in an attempt to arrive in Ultimecia's era.

As was the case with the overall concept of Ultimecia seeking to use Time Compression to meet Squall, this on its own doesn't serve as any evidence toward supporting the concept that Rinoa is Ultimecia, and would only apply if one had already accepted the concept and was using backwards reasoning.


-The Possible Origin Of Ultimecia's Name-

There was an ancient Grecian King by the name of "Mausolus," whose queen -- also his sister -- was named "Artemisia." When he died, his grieving sister went somewhat insane and decided to erect the greatest tomb in history to honour him. She would even mix some of his ashes in her drink everyday. Perhaps the most devoted wife history has known, Artemisia spent the last two years of her life overseeing the construction of the monument to her beloved, seeing to it that the most skilled artisans that she could find took part in its construction, adorning it with statues of men and horses carved from marble.

Also notable is that at some point after Masolus' death, invaders attempted to take his kingdom, but his queen used her cunning to organize the means by which to defeat all her kingdom's foes, despite being greatly outnumbered.

The relevance of all this comes from the fact that "Ultimecia" could be one possible Japanese transliteration of "Artemisia." "A" and "u" are used interchangably in Japanese, as are "l" and "r" (the Ultima Spell and name has been mistranslated as "Atma" and "Altima" in the past, as a result). Further, "e" and "i" are often substituted for one another when translating from Japanese. Finally, the "c" in "Ultimecia" may have arisen from the "s" sound in "Artemisia." Further worthy of consideration is that many statues adorn Ultimecia's castle, and that the path leading down to the doors of Ultimecia's Master Room is strikingly similar to the path leading to the doors of the Mausoleum of Mausolus (his name and tomb having given rise to the term "mausoleum"), both having statues along their sides, for instance:

Linkage ().

Also relevant is that Ultimecia fought and killed many attacking SeeDs, the bodies of whom lay strewn across the beach behind Edea's house. This may well parallel the historical Artemisia's defeat of the forces that outnumbered her kingdom.

The relevance of all this in regard to Rinoa is that she may well have become Artemisia, the grieiving but devoted wife that sought to build a wonderful monument to her fallen beloved while she went insane. Her castle, after all, is beautiful on its own but is also filled with beautiful things.

Also recall that Mausolus and Artemisia were brother and sister. Rinoa and Squall were as close to being brother and sister as would be possible without that actually being the case (Squall's father, Laguna, and Rinoa's mother, Julia, had feelings for one another at one time).

Finally, note that Ultimecia's name has been translated as "Artimecia" in some translations, such as the German version of Final Fantasy VIII.

Response: While all very interesting, it's also all one large unrelated matter, though it's certainly easy to see why and how one would draw a connection here. The faults in this matter lie first with the fact that Ultimecia never displays a mental state that could really be labled as insane. She always knew full well what she was doing, why she was doing it, and to what end she was doing it, as do we. Also notable is that the intended translation of "Ultimecia" most certainly was "Ultimecia." The name is a play on the concept of "all in one," or "altogether comprehensive," a concept that can be seen employed with the name of the Ultima Spell, this Spell being the combination of all Elements; it's also seen with the Ultimania Guides published by Square-Enix, as the "Ultimania" in the title alludes to the guides being completely comprehensive tomes on the games.

That said, with other information to support the notion of Rinoa being Ultimecia, such as proof or hard evidence of Witches having immortality, this would be an invaluable piece of evidence to work in the theory's favor. However, as things stand, it falls short.


-Ultimecia and Rinoa's Faces-

During the game's ending FMV, Ultimecia's face flashes over Rinoa's three times in a very striking manner, and she also bears quite a resemblance to Rinoa. While Edea, Zell, and Seifer's faces also flash over Rinoa's during that scene (Edea's doing so first and a total of five times even, whereas Ultimecia's does so only three times), there's a somewhat greater emphasis on those moments when Ultimecia's face does so, as the images of Ultimecia's face are solid and the only images on-screen at the time, whereas Edea, Zell, and Seifer's faces appear in something of a "hole" in the screen and share screen time with other imagery. The faces of the other characters flash by in a rather insignificant manner, whereas Ultimecia's three appearances in that FMV are of her face being ever closer to the camera with each shot, until she is staring toward the camera intensely in the midst of Rinoa's image also looking toward the camera, the sequence culminating in Rinoa's helmet in space bursting open.

While it may be viewed as an insignificant string of imagery, it may well have represented Rinoa's "death" and "rebirth" as Ultimecia, the helmet shattering symbolizing that she would cease to be who she was and become the Witch that SeeD must fight.

As for differences in Rinoa and Ultimecia's bodies (their shoulder-width and breast-sizes, for example) that may be cited as evidence that they don't look alike, again, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the other Witches encountered in Time Compression all bear physical appearances that are quite different from the bodies of normal women. The power granted by the Witch Embodiment can deform a Witch's body over time as they use Black Magicks, and may even allow a Witch to simply alter her appearance at will.

Response: Certainly an interesting take on the ending FMV, and one that could serve as compelling evidence if coupled with other strong support for the theory. On its own, however, or even coupled with the matter of the name "Artemisia," it's not enough to form a strong case. As things stand, it seems to require already assuming that Rinoa is Ultimecia in order to conclude that the scene was intended to infer something of that nature, but there's nothing to dismiss it as a possible indication if there is otherwise strong support for the notion.

As for a resemblance between Ultimecia and Rinoa, it should be noted that one can compare with or impose the faces of Selphie, Ellone, and Edea over Rinoa's, and all bear strong resemblances to her, as well. In a game in which all characters are designed by the same person, and especially with it being a character designer known for making his female characters look similar to one another -- and also when the same actor did the facial modeling for more than one of these characters -- there are almost certainly going to be resemblances in their facial features. This is something which must be kept in mind as their similarities are not necessarily indicative of there being an indication of some connection between the characters, either as them being related to one another, or as being the same person:

A picture of Rinoa ().
A picture of Edea ().
A picture of Selphie ().
A picture of Ellone ().


-Griever-

Squall carries a ring with a lion engraved upon it, the ring's name being "Griever." This is also the name of the GF that Ultimecia Summons during the final battle of the game and which she Junctions herself to during the course of the battle. During Final Fantasy VIII, Squall gives this ring to Rinoa. Perhaps Griever was contained within the ring the same as Doomtrain was contained within the Solomon Ring, or perhaps it was even a creature that Rinoa herself created in honour of Squall.

Response: There may have been a "real" Griever that existed in stories that Squall had known about, but the only suggestion offered in-game is that it is a creature that Squall conceived of in his own mind, as Scan tells us that in Squall's mind, Griever is the strongest GF:


Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing.

Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existance. This would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part. In closing this matter, there's nothing about Griever that actually supports the theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia.


-"Becoming Warped"-

The Japanese instruction booklet for Final Fantasy VIII actually states that Rinoa will end up becoming warped:


A beautiful and enigmatic woman, kind-hearted and driven to succeed.

A cheerful girl whose 'mood maker' liveliness and gentleness touches people without discrimination. She's honest about her feelings and readily speaks what she thinks. However, in time she ends up becoming warped...

With this in mind, it's most certainly making reference to Rinoa becoming Ultimecia.

Response: Not necessarily. Japanese is a language built more off of context than off of the direct meaning of words. As a result, English translations of Japanese -- especially when they are direct translations -- often fail to convey context. The term used in the instruction booklet at that point was "amanojaku," the context for which implies that she will become something she wouldn't have wanted to be, and something which she views as negative. So another way of localizing that line would be "However, in time something bad will happen to her and change her in a manner that she will view as negative." The original meaning of the term "amanojaku" would, by the way, be something along the lines of "Devil beneath temple guardian deities," which is a way of saying "Something bad hidden under something good." This was the case when Ultimecia possessed Rinoa.


Having now addressed all the matters that are cited as evidence for the theory, I would now like to address a few flaws in the concept itself.

Something worthy of nothing is that Ultimecia attempted to kill Rinoa several times. The first time was when she sent the Iguions to kill her. She later tries again in Galbadia Garden if Rinoa is in the party. Even if she is not, Ultimecia possesses Rinoa for a brief moment and uses her to pass a message to Seifer, and then sends Rinoa into a coma. Later, she uses Rinoa to disable the locks on Adel's tomb, so as to free the elder Witch. Immediately after, she ditches Rinoa in space, leaving her to die.

If Rinoa were her past self, we can reasonably assume she would be aware of it to some extent, even if insane, as she would be witnessing her own past and the events that led up to driving her into insanity. Granted, if one is operating with the assumption that Rinoa would have forgotten her past completely due to the use of GFs across several centuries, that would present reasonable grounds, perhaps, for her not being aware of the past, though that, in itself, is part backwards reasoning (as it would require already believing Ultimecia to be Rinoa) and part assumption of something not supported and which could only be assumed if one had previously used backwards reasoning (that Rinoa was Ultimecia and had forgotten the past due to GF usage) to start with.

Also, I would like to stress the point that if losing Squall was the main reason for Rinoa going insane and becoming Ultimecia, it stands to reason that we would have seen some measure of recognition toward him on Ultimecia's part. Instead, she displays no recognition or affection toward him, merely tries to kill him, and tends to address SeeD as a whole.


Having now addressed all those matters, I would like to offer the theory its fair due and point out those often-cited points that are used to argue against the theory, but which fail to actually contradict it. Afterward, I will offer conclusive evidence on this matter that seals the case that Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia.

-Points often Cited in use against the Theory, but which don't Actually Contradict it-

Rinoa Dying In The Final Battle:

Possible Contradiction: Since Rinoa can die and be absorbed into time in the final battle with Ultimecia, if she were Ultimecia�s past self, that should erase Rinoa�s future. In other words, it should erase Ultimecia�s own state of being in the present.

Why It Isn�t A Contradiction: While Rinoa can die in the final battle with Ultimecia and be absorbed into time and Ultimecia not vanish, with the normal flow of time already skewed by Time Compression, Ultimecia was possibly outside the normal flow of time, and, thus, protected. For that matter, she was likely already in possession of the Witch Embodiment of all those Witches killed by Squall and the others when they entered Time Compression, and perhaps by virtue of this and being the one who cast Time Compression in the first place, she was granted immunity.

For that matter, to question this would require questioning why Squall, Irvine, Zell, Selphie, Quistis, and Rinoa hadn�t already faded out of existence due to their own pasts being swallowed up by Time Compression already by the time it reached them in the present.


Rinoa Leaving Her Proper Place In The Time Stream:

Possible Contradiction: Rinoa left the time stream at the moment that Adel died. She and SeeD traveled into the future. Ultimecia would have no longer had a past beyond the point of Adel's death if she were Rinoa. When SeeD got to the future, they would not have found Ultimecia there, for Rinoa would not have been able to become her, being that she left the time stream before she ever became her. Even with Rinoa returning to the exact second that she left the timeline, until she returned to the past again, there shouldn't be an Ultimecia for her to encounter in the future.

Why It Isn�t A Contradiction: Again, there was no longer a normal flow of time due to Time Compression. To argue that Ultimecia should have vanished because her past self no longer remained along a timeline that itself no longer existed even while the past self continued to exist would be completely illogical, especially in light of Squall and the others not vanishing, despite their own pasts having been absorbed into time.


-Conclusion-

Many points used to argue in favor of the theory either already require having accepted it as fact � in which case the conclusion would be used as support for the evidence that�s supposed to support the conclusion, a logical fallacy known as �circular reasoning� that absolutely is never valid in a debate � or require making some leaps in assumption that aren�t definitively supported, and, in at least one case (immortality), are defeated by the concept of Occam�s Razor (�All things being equal, the most simple explanation is the best�). In fact, the matter of immortality is altogether impossible, as it is outright shown not to be a possibility by the Witches section of the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide, which states that Witches have a normal lifespan:

(Translated by DarkAngel)

SORCERESSES

Said to have existed from time immemorial to the present day, the sorceresses are women who are said to have received their powers from the old god, Hyne. There is, however, no hard evidence to support this claim. Extraordinarily powerful, many sorceresses have harboured ambitions to rule over the world � as a result, many people have come to equate the Sorceress with fear. However, there are also many Sorceresses who have chosen to live a quiet life sheltered away from civilized society; as such, the actual number of Sorceresses and the amount of power shared between them remains unknown.

The potential to become a sorceress is determined by one�s capacity to wield such power � their natural affinity for magic. This factor helps to determine Sorceress candidates for when a Sorceress passes on all of her power into the next Sorceress. The giving and receiving of power can be made between any two individuals � it not necessary for them to be related by blood. A Sorceress� lifespan is the same as a normal human�s, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress.

With this in mind, Rinoa could not live to the far future through natural means, despite being a Witch. While the Ultimania states that Witches cannot die until they have passed on their powers, in all cases where we see Witches fatally wounded, they either die immediately or shortly therafter, suggesting that they either choose to die then and there so as to end their suffering, or that their bodies force them to give up their powers. The latter notion is supported by the fact that Ultimecia is still trying to defy her fate during the ending, even while her body is forcing her to give up her powers.

We know this because she states "I...can't...disappear yet," which is certainly not a statement of defiance regarding dying with her powers, as she couldn't anyway. This was a statement made in defiance of dying at all, which she would if she gave up her powers. Seeing as how she didn't want to die, we can only conclude that Witches' bodies force them to give up their powers when the time of their natural death has arrived, in which case Rinoa couldn't have remained alive by simply choosing to hold onto her powers despite having reached the end of her natural lifespan. Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born. Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

While one might still yet argue that Rinoa could have been placed in the same kind of seal that Adel was, and that this chronologically preserved her far into the future until she was released, such a notion is absolutely absurd. It's not supported or suggested by the game to occur, and there's already a perfectly valid, well-supported, and strongly-hinted suggestion concerning Ultimecia's origin anyway, with said origin not being dependent on Rinoa in any form whatsoever. To attempt referencing this possibility as rendering the theory plausible is simply grasping at straws illogically due to being unwilling to accept the theory as wrong, as it most certainly is. With the creators of the game outright stating that Witches have normal lifespans, it's hardly logical to go about looking for a way around that to support a notion that's not otherwise suggested by the game's story.

Also notable is that Dr. Odine told SeeD that they would be moving toward the future when Time Compression began, and as they did so, they encountered 11 Witches that they were forced to fight and defeat. With the knowledge in mind that SeeD was moving toward the future, it would suggest that the 11 Witches that SeeD fights are Witches that came between Rinoa and Ultimecia. While it might be argued that this is not the case and the Witches are not "normal" Witches seeing as how many have the same appearances and seeing as how all appear during Time Compression and attack SeeD for unexplained reasons, there's still the possibility to consider that Ultimecia could have likely manipulated these Witches into attacking SeeD due to her ability to enter the minds of other Witches in the past with Junction Machine Ellone. As regarding the Witches peculiar resemblances, this was likely simply a case of cutting corners graphically during production. Though only three designs were used for eleven different Witches, the fact that different designs were used at all is suggestive of an intention that the Witches be regarded as individuals.

The Final Word: In any event, the conclusion that is drawn by this document, and is supported by the princicple of Occam's Razor ("All things being equal, the most simple explanation is the best"), is that Rinoa is not and cannot be Ultimecia. The theory is altogether not plausible nor reasonably possible.


-Acknowledgements-

I wish to acknowledge and offer my gratitude to Sir Bahamut, the original author of the Time/Ultimecia FAQ on GameFAQs, and one of the most knowledgable people on the subject of Final Fantasy VIII and time in the world. I've learned a great deal from you, sir, during our many debates and brainstorms, and firmly believe that our acquaintanceship has been invaluable to both your analyses of Final Fantasy VIII and mine, and that neither of us would be where we are today in the knowledge of this game's story without one another. Thanks for everything, bro.

I also wish to thank TheOnionKnight and Leuchest/The Dark Legend of GameFAQs for their tons of input and theorizing that have in no small part contributed to my musings and formation of this article. A special mention also goes out to Katicflis of GameFAQs for her input and brainstorming which undeniably contributed to the theorizing amongst myself, Sir Bahamut, TheOnionKnight, and Leuchest/The Dark Legend in various ways. Another special mention goes to PMog, also of GameFAQs, for pointing out certain points in the Ultimania to look into have translated.

A very special thanks goes to DarkAngel, staff member at AdventChildren.net, and owner of the Gunshot Romance website, for translating articles from the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide. The translations of the articles in question will be posted in full below, along with the scans of the pages in question from the Ultimania Guide itself:

Witches and Magic ()


Sorceresses

Said to have existed from time immemorial to the present day, the sorceresses are women who are said to have received their powers from the old god, Hyne. There is, however, no hard evidence to support this claim. Extraordinarily powerful, many sorceresses have harboured ambitions to rule over the world � as a result, many people have come to equate the Sorceress with fear. However, there are also many Sorceresses who have chosen to live a quiet life sheltered away from civilized society; as such, the actual number of Sorceresses and the amount of power shared between them remains unknown.

The potential to become a sorceress is determined by one's capacity to wield such power � their natural affinity for magic. This factor helps to determine Sorceress candidates for when a Sorceress passes on all of her power into the next Sorceress. The giving and receiving of power can be made between any two individuals � it is not necessary for them to be related by blood. A Sorceress' lifespan is the same as a normal human's, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress.


Magic

A special power that can only be used by Sorceresses. The magic that is used by human beings is referred to as para-magic. Discovered by Doctor Odine during the course of his Sorceress research, para-magic via junctioning GF is used by Balamb Garden. While it is possible to use para-magic without prior training, without equipping a GF one's power is limited physically, and cannot develop beyond normal parameters. (#) However, in order to create forces capable of fighting without having to rely on the power of the GFs during combat, Galbadia Garden has instituted areas with special anti-magic force fields similar to those used in the D-District Prison.

Gunblades ()


GUNBLADE

Combining the sword with a standard shotgun�s mechanisms, the Gunblade is a unique weapon. If you pull the trigger while the bullet is �set," a strong wave of power will travel down to the edge of the blade, raising the attack power of the Gunblade. By pulling the trigger at the right time, one can release a powerful attack; however, achieving competency in usage of the Gunblade is very difficult and therefore requires a high degree of aptitude.

Selphie's Epilogue ()


Latest Diary Entry (Public)

Finally, we arrived at Ultimecia�s castle. Inside, there were a lot of traps waiting for us! Our futures were hinged in the balance � could we do this?

�you know, I just thought of something right now. What was Ultimecia thinking? She was trying to survive in the only way she knew how, I think. Was she trying to reach all the way out to the past to compress time, so that she could try to erase the fate she knew was in store for her�? Thinking about it that way, maybe what I�m writing is one-sided.

Okay, moving on! If any of you want to ask me in person, I�ll always be around! Think of it as a treat from your local, friendly Garden Festival Committee Director!

Oh, and I wanted to talk about Seifer too. I know a lot of people might still be harbouring a grudge against him, but he�s got nowhere to go, so I feel sorry for him. He lost his sanity back then (Hmm�), so let�s just leave him alone, okay? Fujin and Raijin, too. Okay?

Aaah! I can�t believe it�s this time already! The party�s going to start soon! The video camera�s not even done charging yet! I�ve got to change, too! Hurry! Until next time!

Most of all, I wish to thank my fiance, Carys. I love you. You'll never know how much you've done for me.

- Glenn "Squall of SeeD" Morrow

omogmgom cloud rulrwrul okay1!1!!!!!11

I didn't read all of that, but from what I could tell, you're basing your position of the theory being bunk on nothing more than the immortality point being unproven, even though you can't disprove it either. In other words, you wasted your time as well as that of anyone who bothers reading that.

I didn't read all of that, but from what I could tell, you're basing your position of the theory being bunk on nothing more than the immortality point being unproven, even though you can't disprove it either. In other words, you wasted your time as well as that of anyone who bothers reading that.

Ever hear of Occam's Razor? "All things being equal the most simple explanation is the best"? Considering that a human being with an intent wrote this story, it's safe to assume that they would use the story itself and any supplementary materials published for it to convey that story. Considering that we have an outright declaration that Rinoa's got nothing going for her to keep her going for many generations more, that SeeD fights a lot of Witches as they're traveling toward the future, and that "Succession of Witches" is one of the main themes of the game... I'm not seeing any logical reason to assume that the writer wants us to assume that he intended the exact opposite of what he conveyed.

Either way, you're still working off of assumptions rather than any really solid and conclusive evidence. As for Occam's Razor, it doesn't mean that the simpler answer is always correct. It means that it usually is. In other words, even if you accept the simpler answer as dictated by the principle, there's still a chance of being wrong.

Either way, you're still working off of assumptions rather than any really solid and conclusive evidence. As for Occam's Razor, it doesn't mean that the simpler answer is always correct. It means that it usually is. In other words, even if you accept the simpler answer as dictated by the principle, there's still a chance of being wrong.

But there's no indication in this case that one would be wrong to go with Occam's Razor. You're forgetting that "Rinoa is Ultimecia" is the outlandish concept present, not the concept assuming she isn't. "Rinoa is Ultimecia" is the one on the defensive. That's the theory that is need of support.

The very idea itself requires not only working off of assumptions, but ignoring everything that is made clear about Ultimecia (her desire to change her fate, her desire to become one with the universe, etc.). The very concept of placing Rinoa hundreds of years into the future is an unsupported and unsuggested -- if not outright contradicted -- concept on its own, mustless accounting for her conveniently forgetting Squall and never showing any recognition toward him, despite her loss of him supposedly being the entire reason she became a crazy bitch in the first place.

Again, there's absolutely no indication of the theory. It's got nothing working in favor of it at all.

For the record, before I go any further with this, I just want to make it clear that I have absolutely no opinion on the issue. That said...


But there's no indication in this case that one would be wrong to go with Occam's Razor. You're forgetting that "Rinoa is Ultimecia" is the outlandish concept present, not the concept assuming she isn't. "Rinoa is Ultimecia" is the one on the defensive. That's the theory that is need of support.

That doesn't hold up because the argument plays out exactly the same if you reverse it and take the stance of "Rinoa is not Ultimecia." And anyway, the entire point of Occam's Razor is to reach a conclusion when all options are equally possible, so the principle operates exactly as I said.


Again, there's absolutely no indication of the theory. It's got nothing working in favor of it at all.

You clearly stated in your first post that several of your points of contention were based on unproven theories rather than absolute fact. When you regard things equally, as is required for the use of Occam's Razor in the first place, there's as much basis for it as against it.

I worded that badly, I'm afraid. Thanks for pointing it out. What I meant is that even if one is only examining the few points that could lean in favour of either side provided the right cirucmstances (which is to say "additional support"), such as the matter of the wings or their faces in the ending FMV, Occam's Razor would require going with the more simple explanation, and that if we're examining the matter as a whole, then it's got absolutely nothing to stand on.

I worded that really badly before. XD

There is no way any one in there right mind would ever read that.

Having Rinoa as Ultimecia would have been a good idea in the game, if something this big was actually in the storyline i'm sure they would have put it across a bit more clearly than "Small hints" and from what you have written, it could have played a huge part in the game, but sadly they didn't, and they decided to just have them as two seperate people.

one flaw on this theroy i found was ultimacias accent. Thougb i gues could be explained by her living in a world for 100s of years and her voice changing with out her even noticing (like you would if you moved to another country for a wile, your accent would adapt) but then i could be wrong. Also Rinoa was going to be sealed like Adel but Squall went to save her. Afterwards she sudgested that she go back, afraid the people would hate her and fair her but Squall says that it would be pointless because hed just end up going back to get her again. So maybe after squall dies (and who says it has to be from age, he is a SeeD after all) she gets herself sealed which could have contributed to her memory loss (imagine being "frozen" for a few 100 years). BUt all of this couldnt be posable, thiers not much to back it up. This is why my opinion on the matter is constantly varying because thiers so many posabilities as to why and how.

A Sorceress’ lifespan is the same as a normal human’s, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress.
Squaresoft said that Ultimecia is immortal. YOU FAIL.

The Witches dying instantly might just be them giving in to their fate and passing their powers on to anyone around. However, in Ultimecia's case she was extremely determined not to die, so naturally she would hold onto life, and her powers, for as long as she possibly could.

Nice try anyway.

I still don't believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia. Sorry. :(

Squaresoft said that Ultimecia is immortal. YOU FAIL.

Except... you know... they didn't.



The Witches dying instantly might just be them giving in to their fate and passing their powers on to anyone around.

Or it might be that they don't have any choice in the matter, as was obviously the case with Ultimecia. She was refusing to give in to death and saying that she couldn't let it happen, yet it did immediately after she said that. She didn't have a choice. Her body forced her powers out.



However, in Ultimecia's case she was extremely determined not to die, so naturally she would hold onto life, and her powers, for as long as she possibly could.

And, as pointed out, she didn't have a choice in the matter.

Can you give me some proof of this "Body forcing her powers out" theory?

Can you give me some proof of this "Body forcing her powers out" theory?

No, but there's constant support for it which contradicts your suggestion that she could simply choose to keep living. The fact that she was saying "I can't let myself die yet!" which showed that she didn't want to die but was giving away her powers anyway is one of the larger points of support for it, as is the very simple fact that no Witch at any time simply chooses to keep living.

Think about it for a second: If Witches had a choice, it makes no sense that none of them -- out of the 13 that SeeD kills -- simply chooses to keep living, and that the one out of the group that is standing there refusing to accept her death still succumbs to it two seconds after her declaration that she can't let it happen. Even were they in constant pain and the notion of giving up their powers to end their suffering in play, Ultimecia would not be one to give up if she could choose.

Ultimecia is a Witch that obviously doesn't want to die. Everything she's done is because she wants to change her fate and prove that she's the captain of her own destiny and not some slave to fate. If any Witch could simply choose to keep living, one would think that it would be this one. Yet she, like all the others, goes down.

For that matter, once again, Witches have ordinary lifespans. Ultimecia certainly doesn't look several hundred years old.

I said proof, not backwards reasoning.

I said proof, not backwards reasoning.

That isn't backwards reasoning. That's logical reasoning. That's putting 2 with 2 and getting 4.

Backwards reasoning is deciding that Rinoa's somehow Ultimecia, and then trying to figure out a way to render "Witches have normal lifespans" moot as regarding Ultimecia with the notion that Witches just might have some say in whether or not they die as the evidence for it, despite this very point being negated by the game anyway.

You've already got the information there in front of you just by playing the game:

Ultimecia not looking like a shriveled-up carcass + Ultimecia refusing to accept her death + Ultimecia dying anyway = Ultimecia not having any say in whether or not she dies.

It's still not logical conclusion because to believe it one must already believe that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

It's still not logical conclusion because to believe it one must already believe that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

That isn't true at all, and it's a lame cop-out argument. Looking at what evidence is there, that is the logical conclusion to make simply because there's absolutely nothing to work in favor of Rinoa being Ultimecia. We know Witches can't simply choose to keep living because not one out of 13, including the one who wreaked havoc in the past, cast Time Compression, and tried to become God all because she just wanted to live does so.

There's not a single thing within the narrative that suggests Rinoa being Ultimecia. Not their wings (all Witches have a wing/feather motif), not their faces (all the females in the game look similar), not changing Ultimecia's name to "Artimisia" (it was definitely intended to be "Ultimecia" because it's a play on the concept of something being "all containing"), not Griever (Griever was scanned from Squall's mind and created during the fight with him), not the notion of living forever (it doesn't exist), not having her castle near the flower field (1) she had just killed the remaining SeeDs at the birthplace of SeeD, and 2) it's to emphasise the game's concept of fate and everything coming full-circle), and not her very goal (to avoid her death and unjust persecution).

There's just nothing there to go on. At all.

But this is all still just a theory. You have no proof that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. Show me a magazine article or an interview with the producer or story writer of the game saying Ultimecia isn't Rinoa. Can't? Then shut the fuck up.

But this is all still just a theory. You have no proof that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. Show me a magazine article or an interview with the producer or story writer of the game saying Ultimecia isn't Rinoa. Can't? Then shut the fuck up.

You're totally missing the point. Your Post might as well say "Show me a magazine article or an interview with the producer or story writer of the game saying that Squall wasn't born as a girl. Can't? Then shut the fuck up." It's as logical a thing to say because there's as much support for both concepts.

You keep forgetting that the concept of "Rinoa is Ultimecia" is the outlandish concept on the defensive. That's the one that needs support. The "Rinoa is not Ultimecia" concept is the one sitting pleasantly in the shade fanning itself and drinking lemonade because it's the one that fits the story of the game and the supplementary material published by Squaresoft. While "Rinoa is Ultimecia" is certainly a possibility, possibility does not equate to plausibility. It's possible that Irvine and Selphie are siblings and don't even know it. It's possible that Julia is Ultimecia. It's possible that Edea is Squall's actual mother. But the fact that the possibilities exist lends nothing towards plausibility.

We might as well be arguing over the possibility of George Bush being an alien.

He's not?

Wow, that was almost twice the length of my FFV theory as well. Nice job.

Considering that most people based R=U ENTIRLY on the idea that sorceresses do not age, there isn't really enough proof to supplement the theory now. Once again, nice job.


P.S You'll probably get a much better response to that essay on EoFF than here. Everyone on this forum seems so angry…

The point that he does not make, and why Rinoa is still Ultimecia, is that we never see Ultimecia before she casts Time Compresion. And after Time Compression is cast it is highly plausible that Ultimecia could take any for she wanted.

And besides, he failed to disprove anything because he CLEARY states that it is still POSSIBLE that Rinoa is Ultimecia, therefore he has not disproven anything.

The point that he does not make... is that we never see Ultimecia before she casts Time Compresion.

Uh... what? What does that have to do with anything at all? In any event, we do see her well before she casts Time Compression. When Ellone sends Squall into the past, he sees a translucent image of Ultimecia standing over Rinoa when she posessed her.



And after Time Compression is cast it is highly plausible that Ultimecia could take any for she wanted.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Any Witch could change how they look at any time. Note Edea's shrinking hair.



And besides, he failed to disprove anything because he CLEARY states that it is still POSSIBLE that Rinoa is Ultimecia, therefore he has not disproven anything.

Yeah, and it's still possible that Squall is the son of a Moomba, but it's not supported or suggested by anything official. So just because it's not outright stated as not being so, it's somehow logical to assume that it is? You do realize just what kind of a can of worms you're opening right? The same can that contains "Selphie is Ultimecia!" and "Rinoa is Ellone!" and "Julia is Edea!"

It has been disproven as regarding all realms of logical analysis. To assume that just because something is possible by adding tons of new information to a story when you aren't the writer doesn't somehow make it plausible, nor even likely or necessarily logical. I could easily argue that Seifer must be Cid's son, and it could fit with everything that is within the story without contradicting any of it (he got to head the Disciplinary Committee and Cid let him get away with a lot of shit after all), but that doesn't mean it's plausible or even logical because it's not supported.



...and why Rinoa is still Ultimecia...

So a lack of negative information for something equates to support for it? So since there's nothing in the game to indicate that the Ragnarok isn't a sentient vessel, it is? Do you realize how ridiculus that sounds?


The really ridiculus thing is that you have yet to offer one shred of actual support for the concept even while arguing that it's fact. Of course, there isn't any support for it, and the key concept that could have made it plausible has been proven impossible, which makes your lack of presenting any support understandable.

Squall of SeeD, but do you have a life? Or are you a bum who spends all his/her time finding out worthless things about videogames?

Who cares who Ultimecia is anyway? I'm serious, find me ten people who care about Ultimecia at all. Please.

If you don’t care, then stop posting. God, you would think you people would be happy to have a thread that didn’t consist of “Which FFVIII character do you want to fuck?” or “I can’t beat some boss because I never worked out how to junction”.

Squall of SeeD, but do you have a life? Or are you a bum who spends all his/her time finding out worthless things about videogames?

::looks at your Post Count of 278 which has accumulated since August of this year, 99% of which were in gaming Forums::

Um...?



Who cares who Ultimecia is anyway? I'm serious, find me ten people who care about Ultimecia at all. Please.

::looks at your previous posts ::

I've got one so far.


See? I can be an unnecessarily snippy bastard too.

Well my point is, why make a post this long and the game that no one cares about? Why not go on a rant about how Kefaka wasn't the retarded bastard everyone thinks he is?

Umm guys this thread isnt called Insult each other and have petty arguements.

It is here to discuss the if Rinoa is/isnt Ultemicia so if your not gonna discuss that then take it to pms

Okay, one last question. WHO IS ULTIMECIA

Well my point is, why make a post this long and the game that no one cares about?

Plenty of people that are fans of Final Fantasy VIII care. You may not like the game (which begs the question of why you're vehemently arguing about a plot point in it, anyway), but there are many who do.



Why not go on a rant about how Kefaka wasn't the retarded bastard everyone thinks he is?

Sorry. Can't say there's really anything in Final Fantasy VI beyond "Are Locke and Celes a canon couple?" that really requires analyzation, and that one's spelled out perfectly clearly anyway. This will have to do, I guess:

(Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children Spoilers)
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html


I'm guessing enough people care about that.

i would have to say that even though all these facts are b4 us. i believe there really is no true indication that rinoa is ultimecia. i think its just a matter of opinion

I love 8, I never picked up on this till 3rd time, Its like PKMN Movie 4, Sammy Is OAK, hinted at with damn good evidence but never prooven properly, but I do believe it

::looks at your Post Count of 278 which has accumulated since August of this year, 99% of which were in gaming Forums::

Um...?

OMG!! I have a fucking stalker!!
BTW-Have you counted? How do know it is 99%?

Before I say this, I'll point out I have no opinion one way or the other regarding this theory.

Playing through the game again recently, there was one line that stuck out, and may serve as some support for the theory (Sorry if it's been mentioned before):

Rinoa
"If I fall under Ultimecia's control again..."
"SeeD will come kill me, right?"
"And the leader of SeeD is you, Squall..."
"Squall's sword will pierce my heart......"
"I guess it's ok if it's you, Squall. Nobody else."

That...doesn't really prove anything. That could be interpreted a number of ways.

Who cares who Ultimecia is anyway? I'm serious, find me ten people who care about Ultimecia at all. Please.

Am I number two? Squall of Seed, I haven't seen such logical and non agressive rebuttal of an argument on here in... well, ever.

i tilt my hat to you

iam 3. The background to any story is important, and without it the characters seem almost lost. If Rinoa is proved to be Ultimecia then that would be quite good considering that we would be able to make a mental picture in our head of the rest of the story. Yet again we could do that anyway.

Well I'll be 4 then. Not so much that i care about Ultimecia but I'm liking the way Squall of Seed is lookin after himself on this forum. respect.

He's not?

No, we're all aliens, and he is proving to us that the human race is not worth saving.

edit: That was a long time ago, wasn't it? Sorry guys, I guess i'll clarify. He said that in response to "Is George Bush an alien?"