Rinoa= Ultimecia? [Archive] - Final Fantasy Shrine Forums

Tidus 66

06-10-2005, 11:26 PM

Sorry about the spoilers :(

I heard that Ultimecia was Rinoa, at first i didn't want to believe it but then some things made sense

1- Rinoa Didn't want to give her powers to some little girl, so she kept them.
2- Since a sorceress lives longer than the average human, she would live longer, and all her friends would die, including Squall, that may led her to be alone.
3- Since a knight serves to protect the sanity of a sorceress and helps her to not feel lonely ( Edea explains that when you go there with Rinoa on disc 3, before entering the garden when Squall makes his promise)
4- Since she uses a GF, she will with time forget all about his friends, and since she is a sorceress she will be hated by some, leading her to become violent
5- Her GF is Grievert and what is on Squall's ring? And in the game the ring is creating bonds between Squall and Rinoa
6- In the Final Fmv, there's a part when Rinoa's wings turn black, and the eyes of Ultimecia appear every once in a while, this part i'm not so sure...
7 - Maybe she's tryin to achieve time compression to change something - Siabout her past, preventing her friends to die, or to pass her powers.
8- Since she is with the party she knows what Ellone's powers are capable to do, so she will watch closely to what happens to Ellone or to Dr Odine's machine

Well this is just a Theory but what do you think? And also i apologize to every Squall+ Rinoa's fans who want an happy ending.

Once again sorry for the Spoilers

Yui

06-11-2005, 12:16 AM

That's not true. Every evidence that you've just given doesn't really support your theory. Whoever told you this? He/She is a badass and a bad liar.

1- Rinoa Didn't want to give her powers to some little girl, so she kept them.
Where did you hear this stuff?

2- Since a sorceress lives longer than the average human, she would live longer, and all her friends would die, including Squall, that may led her to be alone.
Seriously...

3- Since a knight serves to protect the sanity of a sorceress and helps her to not feel lonely ( Edea explains that when you go there with Rinoa on disc 3, before entering the garden when Squall makes his promise)
So you're saying... what?

4- Since she uses a GF, she will with time forget all about his friends, and since she is a sorceress she will be hated by some, leading her to become violent
Huh?

5- Her GF is Grievert and what is on Squall's ring? And in the game the ring is creating bonds between Squall and Rinoa
True. But that doesn't make Rinoa as Ultimecia at all. Squall just have that Griever ring because he likes Griever.

6- In the Final Fmv, there's a part when Rinoa's wings turn black, and the eyes of Ultimecia appear every once in a while, this part i'm not so sure...
I didn't really see Rinoa's wings turn black at all. If that really happened, that's just because Ultimecia possesed Rinoa. That doesn't make Ultimecia as Rinoa at all.

7 - Maybe she's tryin to achieve time compression to change something - Siabout her past, preventing her friends to die, or to pass her powers.
No, Ultimecia wants to take over the world by using time compression. Not to change her past.

8- Since she is with the party she knows what Ellone's powers are capable to do, so she will watch closely to what happens to Ellone or to Dr Odine's machine
That's not true at all... Oh man...

Tidus 66

06-11-2005, 12:23 AM

rinoa heartilly, maybe is just a lie, and i personnaly don't want to believe but if you want to read more about this, go to www.gamefaqs.com, there is a faq that talks about this theory, i think more powerful arguments can be found there, and i don't want to cause any disturbs like the jackass theory Aerith can survive, if you treat her better tha the other girls

I get the point! I'm sorry for the post, but i just thought it would be interesting, and certainly i don't want to be flamed, so i'm sorry

This highly controversial theory has become immensely (in)famous ever since
it was first conceived of. Whoever it was who first came up with the idea, we
don't know, because so many ripped him/her off that it's become impossible
to tell by now.

The theory basically states that Ultimecia is in fact an older Rinoa.
In other words, after the game ended, a string of events was set into motion,
ultimately leading to Rinoa ending up "becoming" Ultimecia.
This simple idea has been subject to much hate, and much praise too. It seems
you either love it or hate it.

Now, the theory has been argued for by many people, and there are numerous
websites all presenting a case(usually the exact same arguments with a few
nuances here and there), but almost all of the websites and individuals who
stood up for it couldn't produce a consistent and good set of arguments
supporting their claim. Thus the theory has often been dismissed as
impossible or completely illogical.

However, that is certainly not the case. I will in this section present
everything on the subject which has accumulated over the years. I will
present all "hints" that the R=U theory uses, and also show how the theory is
perfectly possible, in other words that there are no logical contradictions
that arise when you state that Rinoa does in fact equal Ultimecia.

That is all I can do really. You'll have to decide for yourself if you think
the "hints" presented are strong enough or not. After all, plausibility is
purely opinionated in such a matter, so it's your own choice whether or not
to believe it(because it certainly can't be proven or disproven).

THE BASIS

The R=U theory is a proposition of what might happen to Rinoa after
a set of assumptions are made. To be precise, those assumptions are:

1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal
human.

2) Rinoa wouldn't give away her powers to some other innocent girl, and would
instead want to keep them herself.

3) Rinoas mental strength isn't all that good if she's all alone(ie. without
Squall and Co).

You may notice that assumptions 2 and 3 are really subsets of a greater
assumption, or rather interpretation of the plot; Rinoas psyche.
Obviously everyone will form an opinion of the main characters psyche during
the game, and this theory is based on an interpretation of Rinoa which makes
assumptions 2 and 3 perfectly logical and plausible. Assumption 1 is
discussed at length later on, so right now we'll assume all assumptions are
correct.

It is quite trivial to see that once the three(or as explained, two)
assumptions are drawn, we can deduce that Rinoa will outlive Squall and all
her friends. They will all die eventually, whether it be of age, illness or
in combat. Rinoa will witness her true love and Knight(Squall) die, as well
as her father and all her other friends, die. They will die and she will not.

I mentioned that Squall is Rinoas knight. Just to remind you what we know
about a sorceress knight:

Edea tells us that a sorceresses Knight is supposed to help maintain the
sorceresses mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure
of the people(remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even
an organisation made solely for killing them!).
Adel for instance, had no Knight, and I don�t think I have to remind you
what kind of a sorceress Adel was!
An example of a good knight, would be Edeas knight, Cid.

So we have a Rinoa, all alone in a world filled with people who generally
want her dead, fear her and hate her, knowing that SeeD still exists to
kill people like her. We have a Rinoa in this scenario, without a Knight.

Based on the aforementioned assumptions, we can now see that Rinoa could very
easily be Ultimecia, driven insane by the grief and pressure, probably
driven to severe paranoia. Eventually, she is so warped that there's hardly
any trace of the old Rinoa in her. Instead, she is now the evil Ultimecia,
trying to compress time and absorb all sorceress powers and eventually all
time and space itself.

I should add that if Rinoa continued to use GFs after the game ended, her
insanity would doubtlessly be "amplified". GFs are very effective at removing
memory after all. Remember Squall. He had forgotten almost all his childhood
except the strongest memories of Ellone, and he'd only used GFs for 4-5
years. Of course this added assumption cannot realistically be backed up by
anything over than personal opinions on what happens after the game, so it
doesn't really count all that much.

Rinoas insanity could none the less be driven to a point where she had
"become" Ultimecia, basically forgetting about her old self, even forgetting
her love, Squall.

Now, you may ask yourself what "hints" supposedly back up this claim?
Well, here is a compilation of all information which could be considered a
hint. I will also include the alternate explanations preferred by those who
don't believe the theory.

1) The first hint was provided by Druff from Gamefaqs. Can't thank you enough
for this one!

"In ancient Greece there was a king named Mausolus and a queen named
Artemisia. When Mausolus died, Artemisia was so grief stricken and devoted
that she made it the rest of her life's work to build him the greatest
tomb ever built, which she did. The tomb was so amazing that it's one of
the Seven Wonders of the World, and it's why extravegant tombs are known
as "mausoleums" to this day.

Well, in the Japanese version of FFVIII, Ultimecia is spelled
"arutimishia". It's entirely possible that her name was intended to be
Artemisia, but the translators mistakenly thought it was supposed to be
Ultimecia, since the spell Ultima is spelled "arutima" in Japanese."

End quote.

Legend also goes that every day, Artemisia would mix some of his ashes into
a drink and thus slowly consume her dead husband. It certainly seems like
Artemisia didn't handle the loss of her love that well, and she seems to
have gone somewhat insane, what with dedicating the rest of her life to his
tomb and slowly consuming him!

Consider then that Ultimecia is called "Artemisia" in some translations
(German for instance).
In history, Artemisia and Mausolus were also brother and sister. In the
game, Rinoa and Squall are as close to sister and brother as possible
without involving incest, something Square would obviously never do.
Laguna, Squalls father, and Julia, Rinoas mother were deeply in love, yet
were torn apart. Was this Squares way of hinting at a very close
connection, almost sibling-like?
Also in history, Artemisia is attacked while she builds the tomb, yet she,
despite being greatly outnumbered, kills all the attacking enemies.
Ultimecia single-handedly takes out all the SeeDs who attack her.

Is Ultimecia a mistranslation of Artemisia, the grieving widow? Did Rinoa
lose Squall, and become the games Artemisia?

Of course, it may just be coincidence, or perhaps Square was referring to
the spell Ultima(Arutima). Either way it's very interesting.

2) Ultimecias castle is anchored facing the very place where Squall and Rinoa
decided to meet if they lost eachother. Perhaps whatever remained of Rinoa
inside Ultimecia drove her to placing her castle right there.

Alternatively, the Orphanage is the birthplace of SeeD, and since Ultimecia
obviously hates SeeD, it could just as well be a symbolic statement of her
victory over SeeD(well, her apparent victory).

3) The only FMV flash we see of Ultimecia appears flashing over Rinoas face
not once, not twice, but three times in succession during the ending(the
crazy sequence). She appears closer for each flash, and in the third and
final flash, we see Ultimecias piercing eyes staring right at us from Rinoas
face.

Is this hinting towards the future? Perhaps. But alternatively, Edeas face
also flashes over Rinoa once before, although not nearly as dramatically
and effectfully as Ultimecias. And since this is inside a Time warp of some
sort, it would perhaps be wrong to single out any one event as meaningful.

Either way, the three flashes are there.

4) During the ending FMV, it would appear that Rinoas white wings turn black
for a moment. It's after Ultimecias face flashes, right after the other
major flashing sequence(notably not over Rinoas face, but rather inside an
"opening" in the screen). We see Rinoa falling towards us and briefly it
appears the wings change colour. The only other sorceress we see with wings
is Ultimecia, and her wings are black. Rinoas wings are white...

A similar scene occurs in the opening FMV, although not to the same extent
(although easier spotted than the one in the final FMV). Rinoa is first
shown amid a whole lot of white feathers, then later on amid black feathers.

Of course, both scenes could merely be indicative of the evil that will
occur in the game, and how she is polluted by sorceress powers and/or how
Ultimecia possesses her.

Still something to think about either way.

5) Rinoa says in the Ragnarok: "I don't want the future. I want the present
to stand still. I just want to stay here with you..." and that Artemisia is
trying to compress time.

Of course, since it would be too strange to think Ultimecia remembered Squall
and all(seeing as she tries to kill him) this can't really be said to be
indicative. Although it could be perceived as subtle hinting by Square.

6) This is not as of yet proven, but it seems highly likely that it is
correct. This hint is how the japanese FF8 manual describes Rinoa:

"A beautiful and enigmatic woman, kind-hearted and driven to succeed.
A cheerful girl whose 'mood maker' liveliness and gentleness touches people
without discrimination. She's honest about her feelings and readily speaks
what she thinks. However, in time she ends up becoming warped..."

It's obviously that last line which is of interest here, and it speaks for
itself really.

This is part of the original text

1) Why do you say that a Sorceress has prolonged lifespan?
--------------------------------------------------------------

A Sorceress can be killed like a human.
This is a fact, seeing as you kill two Sorceresses and attempt to kill a
third. Another way of demonstrating this is to realize that it was a
Sorceress that created Seed. SeeD was created to kill any Sorceress who
goes evil. Surely, if a Sorceress was plain out immortal, why bother? And
a Sorceress would know whether or not sorceresses are immortal or not,
surely!

However, what if a sorceress cannot die while she has her powers?

Let�s change our attention to a line uttered by Edea in the ending. A line
so easily forgotten and overlooked, yet so crucial to this theory:

"In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her
powers".

What is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying in peace, obviously but
what does that entail?
If dying in peace is normally, what is the opposite of dying in peace? Not
dying normally? What does that mean?
Surely, it is possible that �not dying in peace� could mean that the
sorceress was still alive, just not �properly�.

You could think of a sorceress being inflicted with a mortal wound, yet
unable to die. We even have a source who has played the Japanese game who
says that in the Japanese version, Edea actually says "A sorceress cannot
die while she has her powers". For those of you who doubt this, here is a
copy of his post after I asked him what Edea said in the ending:

NOTE: I never made a note of his username, and the topic he posted in
dissapeared ages ago, so I cannot credit a name here. If anyone knows
who it was, please contact me.

-----

"During the final battle, right before Ultimecia summons Griever:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

After fighting Griever for a while:

Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!

After that...

Ultimecia: The introductions are over! Now, I shall junction myself to
Griever!

That's all that has directly to do with everyone's favourite
lion/ring/necklace/insignia/commercial goldmine. Now, on to Edea!

Edea: Excuse me, did a little boy come this way?

Squall: You don't need to worry, it'll be okay. In the end, that kid can't
go anywhere.

Edea: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel so sorry for him, but there's
nothing that can be done.

(Ultimecia appears)

Squall: ....She's still alive?!

Edea: ...A sorceress, is it?

Squall: Yes, Mama Sensei [so much more amusing than "Matron"]. Though I
was sure we had already defeated her.... step back please.

Edea: It's all right. There is no further need to fight. That sorceress is
only seeking someone who will succeed her sorceress' power. A sorceress
cannot die while still holding on to the sorceress' power. I, too.... am a
sorceress, so I understand. I shall take on this sorceress' power. I don't
want a child to become a sorceress.

Sorceress Ultimecia: I cannot yet... allow myself to....fade away.

Squall: Mama Sensei!

Edea: Is it... over now I wonder?

Squall: Perhaps.

Edea: You called me "Mama Sensei." Who are you?

Squall: SeeD. A SeeD of Balamb Garden.

Edea: SeeD? Garden?

Squall: Mama Sensei thought up both SeeD and Garden. Garden raises SeeDs.
SeeDs defeat the sorceress.

Edea: What are you talking about? You are... that child's future, aren't
you?

Squall: .... Mama Sensei.

Edea: So, please go home. This isn't your place.

Childhood Squall: ..... Sis is gone. Am I all alone? Who's heeeeee?

Edea: It doesn't concern you. It's better if you don't know anything.
You're the only Squall for whom it is all right to stay here. Do you know
how to get back? Are you okay on your own?

It seems that a little bit of clarification on Ultimecia's final line is in
order, for the general edification of the world. Heh heh. The verb that is
used in the Japanese is "kieru," which can mean to fade, to disappear, to
vanish, to dissolve, to cease being or to be extinguished, and can be used
as a euphemism for "to die." I really should have provided a note on that,
in order to elucidate what would otherwise simply have passed by unknown.

Now, to insert my own thoughts in this little matter; I shall say from the
top that I am of the mind that Sorceresses have a limited lifespan, and
are, therefore, subject to death, as any other human would be. Edea's line
of "A sorceress cannot die while still a sorceress is immortal as long as
she has her power, or that she cannot "rest in peace," as it were, until
her powers are given to another candidate. Ultimecia doesn't WANT
to die; that much is evident in her words. She's telling herself that she
can't die like this, and the way she phrases it, in Japanese, is in the
form of a sort of "proprietary imperative" (I am not a linguist, so the
proper jargon is something with which I am not entirely familiar. If
anyone who is familiar with Japanese linguistics and the classifying
terminology should read this, feel free to instruct): taken at COMPLETE
literal value (i.e. if one were to translate it word-for-word into
English), one would get "Still... disappearing manner.... to it one must
not go." Ugly as it is when ascribed according English semantic terms,
it's a fairly common sentential construction in Japanese which expresses
the fitness (or lack thereof) of a given action.

Whoa, that was a digression. Shoot me.

Anyway, the implication seems to be that Ultimecia is not willingly
abandoning her powers, but rather, her body is goading her to proffer them
up unto someone else, so that it can do the natural thing and expire.
I would imagine, and this is pure supposition, that a sorceress who has
been ostensibly "killed" yet is unable to give up her power would suffer
tremendous pain; her body wants to die, and *is* dying, but cannot seek
the grave until it is free of that which Hyne bequeathed.�

END QUOTE.

-----

Does this source strike you as bad? Feel free to try and find an equally
convincing source, but I am quite convinced by this.
As long as a sorceress has her powers she cannot die. It seems that when a
sorceress is 'killed', she gives away her powers simply because of how
painful it would be to be frozen in the dying moment forever.
Note that this doesn�t prove sorceress lifespan as being prolonged because
we don�t know if a sorceress could 'die' in body from old age or not. But
we�ll return to that later.

We shall now examine other ingame events relevant to sorceress
immortality:

When Adel is captured, a great effort is made to have her sealed, and not
killed. The sorceress who has waged war on the world for years, who has
murdered countless people, hated by everyone including her country, is not
killed. She is sealed in space.
Well, the second of the two propositions given above tells us that they
didn�t kill Adel because that would mean a new Sorceress anyway!
Why let some other poor woman suffer the consequences of becoming a
Sorceress, when they could instead shoot her up in space, confining her
powers �forever�. Whilst doing this, research could be done on Adel too,
so as to help defeat any new Sorceress. One hint at this is the Odines
Bangle. It seems too complex for Odine to have constructed it without
research from a Sorceress. And just look at the space station. It seems
hard to think that they are doing nothing but check the locks!

Of course, if the lifespan theory is not true, there are still motives
that can explain why they chose not to kill her.
Lagunas goodness could be an explanation. Research could be another. Both
of them combined could give a good motive for shooting her up in space
instead of just killing her. Some say it is because they couldn�t kill
her, but that doesn�t sound plausible. Consider that Adel needed "days" to
wake up properly from her sleep, and if they were to kill her, they could
turn off the seal, run in and kill her easily before she had even begun to
open her eyes!

Finally, one may ask why Adel, Edea and Ultimecia gave up their powers
although the lifespan theory means they can live forever.

Edea is simple. Since Edea was not in control of her body, we can assume
that it was Ultimecia who gave up her powers. Now, a completely broken
Edea would be of no use to Ultimecia, while a fresh and "rookie"
sorceress would be much more useful, so that is perfectly plausible.

Both Adel and Ultimecia can be explained in terms of the pain the body is in
when frozen in the dying moment. I doubt even a sorceress could handle that
much pain for too long.

So until a more convincing source comes along, we can prove sorceress
immortality, and show how it makes perfect sense in the storyline, but we
cannot prove prolonged lifespan. Here Hyne enters the picture.

Remember in the story about him, he creates a few men and women for slaves,
takes a nap, and then wakes up and finds them to have grown beyond his
control. That means his nap lasted for anything from a few hundred years
to several thousand years, plenty of evidence that he in any case had
prolonged life, and any sorceress after him could have inherited some, if
not all of that gift.

This is also more of the text

Yui

06-11-2005, 12:27 AM

You actually believe this??? True. Some of those might be true but it doesn't really fits in. You know what I mean? Ultimecia wants to destroy the world using Time Compression, not to change her past about her friends. If Ultimecia really is Rinoa, then why would Ultimecia kill the party when they came to the castle? That would ruin the whole thing. If Ultimecia killed Rinoa(if she's really Ultimecia's past) then in the future, Ultimecia wouldn't exist.

Tidus 66

06-11-2005, 12:31 AM

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt this is the site for more info

Yeah i think so... but guess what there is also another thing talkin about that in the site, the guy planned everything, but he relys much on preposition

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt

I just realized something, the guy doesn't know how to respond to your arguments without presuming

Yui

06-11-2005, 12:33 AM

Tidus 66

06-11-2005, 12:36 AM

Yui

06-11-2005, 12:38 AM

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt

This one works i think

forget it doesn't :(

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

Use this one and then try to find the right faq

it's Time/ Ultimecia plot Faq

I know it is. I read it. And my reply to this is...

They don't make sense. They create stupid theories. They can't even fully support their theories.

Tidus 66

06-11-2005, 12:39 AM

Yes i gess so, but it's still a good thing to discuss

Yui

06-11-2005, 12:46 AM

Yes i gess so, but it's still a good thing to discuss

I am starting to believe what most people will say. Especially avid FFVIII players.

Tidus 66

06-11-2005, 12:48 AM

what did you thought of the article?

Yui

06-11-2005, 12:51 AM

what did you thought of the article?

I thought it was dumb. Some facts made sense, but it doesn't really supports the theory at all.

Agent0042

06-11-2005, 03:11 AM

All I have to say is this: Oh geez, this theory again.

Yui

06-11-2005, 03:30 AM

All I have to say is this: Oh geez, this theory again.
Yes, I know.

Aurus

06-11-2005, 07:25 AM

I'll just get to the point this thread is as silly as the one I had Jander hate. Rinoa, Tidus both of u I reckon should just leave any theories about Rinoa /Ultimecia in ur heads an move on. Is it really that important?

UltimateFFFan

06-11-2005, 10:31 AM

Right here I have to agree with Rinoa...... All of the characters use GF's they will all forget over time. Squall's ring carries Griever's emblem on it, but somehow, Ultimecia gets her hands on it, and manages to summon it. Other than that, there is no other evidence to your theory. Also, the reason the links to GameFaqs won't work is because they don't allow direct linking, you have to go in through the main page

Yui

06-12-2005, 05:59 AM

*Slayer*

06-12-2005, 09:12 PM

It ain't that important even if you do think that Riona is Ultimecia. Luckily not many people do believe this stupid theory.

Yui

06-12-2005, 09:28 PM

It ain't that important even if you do think that Riona is Ultimecia. Luckily not many people do believe this stupid theory.
Because it's stupid, senseless and false.

*Slayer*

06-12-2005, 09:32 PM

Yeah thats right.

Prak

06-12-2005, 09:35 PM

Not that I'm taking sides on this, but I've seen no real evidence that it's false. Frankly, judging by this thread, I'd be more inclined to believe it were true because you people arguing against it have conceded certain points (most significantly Griever and the GF memory loss thing) yet offered no decent arguments or new information that would prove it false.

Yui

06-12-2005, 09:38 PM

True. Some of those might be true but it doesn't really fits in. You know what I mean? Ultimecia wants to destroy the world using Time Compression, not to change her past about her friends. If Ultimecia really is Rinoa, then why would Ultimecia kill the party when they came to the castle? That would ruin the whole thing. If Ultimecia killed Rinoa(if she's really Ultimecia's past) then in the future, Ultimecia wouldn't exist.

Prak

06-12-2005, 09:40 PM

Yui

06-12-2005, 09:49 PM

That's easily countered by pointing out two simple facts:

1. There's no guarantee Ultimecia even remembered anything about her distant past.
2. Her motives and objectives were never clarified in the game.

It was clarified. If you will remember the things they are saying in the game, especially Dr. Odine in Esthar, he said that Ultimecia clearly wants to take over the world using Time Compression. They clarified Ultimecia's objective in the game somewhere at this point when the party was in Esthar.

Prak

06-12-2005, 09:51 PM

Incorrect. All the game ever gave you was speculation by other characters; never a first-hand account from Ultimecia herself or anyone close enough to her to know for sure.

Yui

06-12-2005, 09:57 PM

Incorrect. All the game ever gave you was speculation by other characters; never a first-hand account from Ultimecia herself or anyone close enough to her to know for sure.

So you're saying that Ultimecia wasn't really sure why she would compress time? Are you saying that she has no objective, for real, in why she is to use Time Compression? Are you saying she just did that for nothing? It was never clarified?

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:03 PM

Quick! Look over your shoulder and maybe you'll catch a fleeting glimpse of the point you missed. Or I can just make it crystal clear and throw it at you again.

I'm saying the game never delivered a first-hand account from Ultimecia. The only explanations the game gave were from characters who were pretty much guessing about her intentions. She certainly had a reason, but we're not privy to her precise motivations.

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:06 PM

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:08 PM

Way to totally surrender the argument. At this point, if I was taking the thread seriously, I'd be forced to concede that Ultimecia and Rinoa probably are the same person. :(

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:11 PM

Way to totally surrender the argument. At this point, if I was taking the thread seriously, I'd be forced to concede that Ultimecia and Rinoa probably are the same person. :(

I'm not surrendering. I'm just saying what I've got to say in this topic.

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:14 PM

WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

With your previous post, you basically said, "You're right, but I'm going to stick to my original point even though you proved it to have more holes than can be counted on the collective fingers of a small country."

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:16 PM

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:18 PM

Have you heard the meaning of OPINIONS ARE FUCKING USELESS IN A DEBATE WHEN SOMEONE CRUSHES THEM INTO TINY BITE-SIZED-FOR-DUST-MITES-SIZED PARTICLES?

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:20 PM

Have you heard the meaning of OPINIONS ARE FUCKING USELESS IN A DEBATE WHEN SOMEONE CRUSHES THEM INTO TINY BITE-SIZED-FOR-DUST-MITES-SIZED PARTICLES?

Oh really? Don't you think that debates are mostly about the opinions of people? They argue about it. They argue about their opinions and stand to it.

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:22 PM

When your opinion has been discredited, you either adapt your argument or abandon it. At this point, your opinion isn't good enough to stand against my arguments, so the opinion I presented is more likely to be accepted by observers as fact.

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:28 PM

But facts need proof to be true. Where is the proof that your opinion can be observed as a fact? What? Those things that you've posted previously? You just looked at the facts that mostly makes sense to counter my arguments, but you didn't look at the negative side.

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:37 PM

Do you realize how retarded you sound right now? The entire point of debating the issue is to convince people that our respective opinions are correct. I don't HAVE to look at both sides of the issue because I'm arguing for a specific side. At this point, I've made a case for the theory that you were unable to counter, yet you continued to proclaim your beliefs without even trying to prove their correctness. That means that you didn't just lose, you threw away your credibility.

You can believe what you like, but you were beaten in the debate and you're refusing to accept that graciously. Simply saying, "You're probably right, but I'll continue to believe what I like," would be a perfectly acceptable way to bow out.

Not that I even care because this issue means absolutely nothing to me in the first place.

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:39 PM

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:42 PM

Denny

06-12-2005, 10:46 PM

I read it and i think there is nothing wrong with the theory. It actualy might be true.
One of the better theories ffs ever had...

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:47 PM

To point out that you weren't even considering the facts at hand. You didn't like the thought of the theory being true, so you rejected it without consideration, proclaiming it false while offering no real evidence to support your viewpoint.

It was never about the theory. It was about you people and your kneejerk reactions.

Then why is the title "Rinoa= Ultimecia?" If this was about our "kneejerk reactions" then how come it's not titled as "Kneejerk Reactions?"

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:51 PM

Please stop being a dumbass. I did not mean that the entire thread is about your reactions. Any moron should be able to see that I was referring to the reason for my own involvement.

Yui

06-12-2005, 10:55 PM

Please stop being a dumbass. I did not mean that the entire thread is about your reactions. Any moron should be able to see that I was referring to the reason for my own involvement.

So you're posting to counter other people's reactions? Just because you find them stupid?

Prak

06-12-2005, 10:56 PM

PRECISELY!

I'm trying to encourage you people to think about things before you post. Exercise common sense. I'm doing it for your own good!

Yui

06-12-2005, 11:01 PM

PRECISELY!

I'm trying to encourage you people to think about things before you post. Exercise common sense. I'm doing it for your own good!

But your mind is not perfect. You don't know... what if you're the only one thinking that it's dumb?

Denny

06-12-2005, 11:02 PM

But your mind is not perfect. You don't know... what if you're the only one thinking that it's dumb?

Rinoa......it`s dumb!! now stop.

Prak

06-12-2005, 11:05 PM

But your mind is not perfect.

I beg to differ.

Yui

06-12-2005, 11:07 PM

I beg to differ.

:(

:whatever:

Venom

06-13-2005, 04:37 AM

I heard it's her in the future but she had a mutation i.e Ultimecia

Tidus 66

06-13-2005, 05:40 PM

I think of what i have red of the theory that it might and i also believe it could be true, but...there are some arguments that are based on presuming things, i personally believe that Ultimecia is Rinoa, because of the article and because this is a story based on time, i think this is one great theory

Denny

06-13-2005, 05:44 PM

Yeah, i come to think of it as this is how she could turn out.
Although by the end i think that future is no longer an issue.

M.C.R.

06-13-2005, 05:49 PM

Not to intrude, but... Didn't Rinoa play a part as her own sorcerer in the game?

Denny

06-13-2005, 05:59 PM

Not to intrude, but... Didn't Rinoa play a part as her own sorcerer in the game?

hhmm...Did she, i think i remember it.
But if Ultimacia was Rinoa it wouldn`t be a 2-dimensional last boss anymore,plus it would make a lot of sense.

Anyway, i can`t realy comment, i kinda forget some of the game.Especially the part with Ultimacia.

M.C.R.

06-13-2005, 06:18 PM

Yes, remember she becomes posessed and Sqaull gets her in space etc.

That was her sorcerer form.

Tidus 66

06-13-2005, 06:22 PM

Yeah that's when Rinoa acquires his sorceress powers, and it's the begining of this theory, this is like Spira's spiral of death but in this case is a Time spiral

Denny

06-13-2005, 06:27 PM

Yes, remember she becomes posessed and Sqaull gets her in space etc.

That was her sorcerer form.

Oh yeah, sorry, it totaly slipped mind.
But maybe ultimacia is her true soccerer form.

Corrupt Melfice

06-16-2005, 12:16 PM

i dnt really no, n i dont want 2 believe that Rinoa is Ultimacia.. but it does kind of make sense, i mean of all the places for Ultimacia castle 2 be, why put it were She n Squall made their promise.. all the evidence is pretty farfetched however i tink its important 2 remember Ultimacia's ring..

avii_woz_here

06-16-2005, 01:39 PM

kind of hard to believe but oddly curious...but Square-Enix didn't really give the details anymore, did they? Waitaminute... the ending thingy where Squall was trying to remember Rinoa but could hardly see her, how come he remembered the sorceresses, especially Ultemecia? and Edea, while she was being possessed... then he cried, right? It's probably either he thought Rinoa died or something, or just that he wanted to be with her. -.-'... aaahh dunnO:P

the guy watching you

06-16-2005, 08:33 PM

your sig is too big avii woz here,better change it before mods see it

Hex Omega

06-16-2005, 10:16 PM

is there any rock-solid evidence or is this just a theory?I couldnt be bothered to read the entire thread.

Tidus 66

06-16-2005, 11:31 PM

There are some good arguments and there are other that are a little discussable, but overall the theory is well defended

Hex Omega

06-17-2005, 12:27 AM

I guess its just speculation.We will never know for sure.

Corrupt Melfice

06-17-2005, 09:00 AM

lets just ask the maker lol, anyone got his e mail

UltimateFFFan

06-17-2005, 09:23 AM

Here's another good point, you kill Ultimecia in the Final Batlle, she becomes weak and passes her powers onto Edea as she dies. Edea then passes her power to Rinoa, this is confusing because it happens before the Final Battle, but if you imagin the Final Battle as the start of the game you'll get it. So I suppose you could say Rinoa is Ultimecia, but only because at one point in the game she has the sorceress's powers....... Plus when you kill Ultimecia and she passes her power onto Edea would'nt that create a time paradox, killing Rinoa, if they really were the same person?

Ice_PhoeniX

06-29-2005, 02:18 AM

I never thought it like that.Maybe this explains the opening movie which shows parts from all the game...

GrieverLioness

07-13-2005, 06:33 PM

I have never believed that Rinoa was Ultimecia, I might be wrong though as many other theories over power mine on the evidence front... but:

Ultimecia has GREEN eyes

...and...

Rinoa has very DARK BROWN eyes

Ice_PhoeniX

07-19-2005, 10:30 AM

Edea has the same eyes...

Valvidesa

07-19-2005, 10:47 AM

but people, how would you explain Rinoa getting an accent, remember, Ultimecia spoke with a little accent, it makes no sense that Rinoa would have that, to be honest, this whole theory doesn't make sense

Prak

07-19-2005, 10:52 AM

It doesn't make sense because Ultimecia has an accent? That's probably the poorest argument against it in quite a while.

Tidus 66

07-19-2005, 03:50 PM

Adek's eyes were red, don't tell me that the colour of the eyes can't change, and if you remembered Edea had the same eyes than Ultimecia, about the accent, that's a pretty poor argument

Agent0042

07-20-2005, 01:12 AM

Yeah, I have to agree, some of these arguments are pretty lame. I personally choose not to believe the theory, but that's just my personal feeling, not based on any particular argument.

Valvidesa

07-20-2005, 09:25 PM

It doesn't make sense because Ultimecia has an accent? That's probably the poorest argument against it in quite a while.

No, actually it's one of the best, just tell me why Rinoa would have gotten an accent in the future ??

because if Ultimecia really is Rinoa (what I don't believe) why on earth would Ultimecia have an accent, that's the part that doesn't make sence

Tidus 66

07-20-2005, 10:13 PM

That's just..stupid, an accent can be aquired over time, and it the madness that Rinoa was in to, may have been the cause of this "accent"

Atom Narmor

07-20-2005, 10:42 PM

remember when Ultimecia took over Rinoa's body? That has major inplications..
Anyway, the game stated that Ultimecia was from a far flung future and when you achieve time compression in the game you have to go through many sorceress chicks to get to her and these woman are stated to be ones from the future and past. In my opinion Rinoa was too far back in history to be Ultimecia. As far as her scheme to compress time, Laguna said she wanted mastery of all time. Who wouldn't? It would mean you would never die.

remember when Ultimecia took over Rinoa's body? That has major inplications.. Why would she need Rinoa's powers if she was already Rinoa??

Tidus 66

07-20-2005, 11:13 PM

Because she needed to take over her old form to free Adel

The sorceress are the sorceress from all time, meaning they can be also from the past

Denny

07-20-2005, 11:16 PM

No, actually it's one of the best, just tell me why Rinoa would have gotten an accent in the future ??

um...why not? It IS the future isn`t it. Sorry to read into too much but an accent could have be developed.

Tidus 66

07-20-2005, 11:17 PM

That's right

Valvidesa

07-21-2005, 12:23 AM

um...why not? It IS the future isn`t it. Sorry to read into too much but an accent could have be developed.

okay, fair enough, since she is evil you could also say that her eye colour changed BUT here is another reason why this theory isn't true, she fights Rinoa, she even kills Rinoa if she has too, that would mean that she would kill herself too, because if Rinoa doesn't exists in the past the future Rinoa (Ultimecia would also disappear) and she didn't even talk to Rinoa, she didn't even know that Rinoa wasn't a SeeD, she called them all SeeDs, I would think that I would say something to my good past person, wouldn't you ?! and also, there wasn't one hint in the entire game that would make you think that Rinoa is Ultimecia, as said before, it doesn�t make sense

oh one more thing, Edea was Ultimecia in the past, she was possessed remember, there she also didn't talk to Rinoa, and again tried to kill her, Rinoa would have died if it wasn't for Irvine and Squall

Tidus 66

07-21-2005, 12:26 AM

Valvidesa

07-21-2005, 12:36 AM

Since she is using Gf's she would forgot who she was so she wouldn't recognize her old form, for more about this time paradox thing go to the site indicated in the begining of the thread, if Ultimecia killed her old self it wouldn't matter, because there would be no more pas, so time paradox is not really a possibility

well if you put it like that I can say anything I want, my argument will just be thrown out the window, but that doesn't matter because you can discuss this until the end of time lol, you still won't get an answer, well maybe if there is a sequel in the future :p

Atom Narmor

07-21-2005, 01:45 AM

Well, it could be her and it couldn't. I guess with all that power squall still became old and she became evil, but perhaps they stopped that future by the simple attempt of changing the past by going to the future?? It's all so damned confusing..

Ice_PhoeniX

07-26-2005, 02:06 PM

okay, fair enough, since she is evil you could also say that her eye colour changed BUT here is another reason why this theory isn't true, she fights Rinoa, she even kills Rinoa if she has too, that would mean that she would kill herself too, because if Rinoa doesn't exists in the past the future Rinoa (Ultimecia would also disappear) and she didn't even talk to Rinoa, she didn't even know that Rinoa wasn't a SeeD, she called them all SeeDs, I would think that I would say something to my good past person, wouldn't you ?! and also, there wasn't one hint in the entire game that would make you think that Rinoa is Ultimecia, as said before, it doesn�t make sense

oh one more thing, Edea was Ultimecia in the past, she was possessed remember, there she also didn't talk to Rinoa, and again tried to kill her, Rinoa would have died if it wasn't for Irvine and Squall
I agree and in the final battle Rinoa can die, if she was Ultimecia she whouldn't die...

Pos

07-26-2005, 02:33 PM

Well no that can be disputed. Ultemicia maybe trying to kill Rinoa if and this is a big hypothetical if. Only one of the 2 Ultemicias could exist in compressed time. So by getting rid of her younger self she has all control with no restraints

Andyuk

07-26-2005, 07:12 PM

Who knows how time really works? If i killed my younger self would i die? Yes? Well then I wouldnt have lived to go back and kill myself.
Its all just theory, things often work different in practice.

And remember it IS a fantasy game, The story writer makes the rules.

Besides isn't there a law that matter cannot just dissapear? so Ultimecia killing herself (if Rinoa is Ultimacia) wouldn't make her just dissapear, would it?

It's probably just something square intended to make us fans discuss years on.

Ice_PhoeniX

07-27-2005, 12:33 PM

It's probably just something square intended to make us fans discuss years on.
It seems that there plan is working! =)

Romanticide

07-03-2007, 10:47 PM

I've been planning to join this forum for awhile, but this particular discussion sparked my interest. I find the entire Rinoa/Ultimecia theory extremely interesting, plausible, and, IF true, would give the entire storyline of the game an overall deeper feel. However, there are loopholes to this theory, the biggest one in particular being asked by lots of posters before me...if Ultimecia is Rinoa in the future, why does she try to kill Rinoa several times throughout the game, and if Rinoa DID die, wouldn't it affect Ultimecia?

Well, after some researching, this particular outlook on quantum theory says no:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4097258.stm

To summarize this article I linked in the post, the new outlook on time travel theorizes that, if traveling to the past (as Ultimecia has done in the FF8 storyline), one cannot directly affect its events by killing off people who are *alive* in the traveler's present, no matter how much they try:

"Researchers speculate that time travel can occur within a kind of feedback loop where backwards movement is possible, but only in a way that is "complementary" to the present.

In other words, you can pop back in time and have a look around, but you cannot do anything that will alter the present you left behind...

According to Einstein, space-time can curve back on itself, theoretically allowing travellers to double back and meet younger versions of themselves.

And now a team of physicists from the US and Austria says this situation can only be the case if there are physical constraints acting to protect the present from changes in the past.

The researchers say these constraints exist because of the weird laws of quantum mechanics even though, traditionally, they don't account for a backwards movement in time.

Quantum behaviour is governed by probabilities. Before something has actually been observed, there are a number of possibilities regarding its state. But once its state has been measured those possibilities shrink to one - uncertainty is eliminated.

So, if you know the present, you cannot change it. If, for example, you know your father is alive today, the laws of the quantum universe state that there is no possibility of him being killed in the past.

It is as if, in some strange way, the present takes account of all the possible routes back into the past and, because your father is certainly alive, none of the routes back can possibly lead to his death.

In other words, even if you take a trip back in time with the specific intention of killing your father, so long as you know he is happily sitting in his chair when you leave him in the present, you can be sure that something will prevent you from murdering him in the past. It is as if it has already happened.

"You go back to kill your father, but you'd arrive after he'd left the room, you wouldn't find him, or you'd change your mind," said Professor Greenberger.

"You wouldn't be able to kill him because the very fact that he is alive today is going to conspire against you so that you'll never end up taking that path leads you to killing him."

Basically, this theory explains that although Ultimecia (if we are willing to believe the theory that she is the future Rinoa) tried to kill Rinoa and her companions several times throughout the storyline, the fact is she ultimately did not. Looking back, Rinoa has suffered many experiences rendering her near-death throughout the game as well as with her companions...yet she lived, even when pitted against Ultimecia. According to this quantum theory and speculation, I believe that Rinoa could not have died throughout the storyline of the game itself regardless of what Ultimecia did, BECAUSE Ultimecia's present (Rinoa's future) has already been set into place, and since Rinoa lives to become her, she cannot die, as her path is already set.

IDX

07-04-2007, 02:00 AM

Even though this thread is 2 years old, you bring a very good argument that I find hard to pass up.

Congratulations! You're one of the few newbies that actually revive a topic to post something that will most likely get people to start talking about it again. But then again, if Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, then Rinoa must have Lady Luck on her side because she just seemed to NOT DIE!

I always found quantum physics interesting but never really thought about applying it to this theory. But if the theory is true, then the reason why her attempts at killing the others off failed is stated clearly through quantum theory.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-04-2007, 03:15 AM

my thoughts on this

1. Ultimecia is form the future how fair we dont know but say riona was a greate sorrceriss say she went dount as a good kind one or a vary strong leader Ultimecia would thenw anna kill ehr and make sure there was no one to challage her power Ultimecia may have gottin ehr powers form rinoa becuase rinoa was ready to die and join her loved one like squall and others

2. Ultimecia ises the gf form the neckless and the ring well most good villians allwasy try to kill the herso with there strognest weapons so maybe in the future rion and squall awakin the loinheart and it is a vary pwoerfull gf for them so in Ultimecia time she gets that gf and then goes after them with it knowing it might help her out

3. Ultimecia knew about seed so what bette rinsult than when she thought she ahd it all in contral than to palce ehr caslte at seed`s birthplace

see a lot of Ultimecia=rinoa debates can besolved by looking at the way msot good villians are what we realy ened to settle this is a time line and how formf rom the future Ultimecia real is

sorry i know i am trying to prove soemthing with the normal fanboy reponses but i relay dont belive Rinoa is Ultimecia

Shumagaki

07-05-2007, 06:35 AM

Wanted to say thanks for reviving this thread, since i'd never read about this theory before and found it very interesting.

I agree with others that there are some loopholes in it, but nevertheless there is some suggestive evidence that it could be true. One thing in particular that always baffled me in the game was the mention of Griever on Squall's ring and Ultimecia's ability to summon it. I suppose I wrote it off as Griever being a guardian force that was known to the world and Squall simply had a ring made of it for kicks since he "liked" it, but that seemed a little cheesy. This theory would provide a much more likeable explanation of it. And the other hints, such as the castle being built where they made their promise, and the explanation of how Ultimecia knew about Ellone (though that doesn't quite work with the amnesia theory.)

But didn't Rinoa simply receive a copy of Squall's ring? How could that ring then become a tool to summon Griever in the future if she is indeed Ultimecia? Or how could she have acquired Griever in the first place since Squall did not have it?

FF8 had an excellent combination of a thorough enough story to fully explain it, but enough mystery left to keep people guessing about some of the finer points. It's nice to be able to theorize about things like this, and I must say, if it's actually true, I have to give the game's creators far more credit than I initially had with the story. (Not to say that I didn't already love it.)

IDX

07-05-2007, 08:05 AM

greenyxi

07-05-2007, 07:00 PM

Wow! All of these arguments are mind-fry-worthy.
I don't believe Rinoa is Ultimecia personally. If she was, square would have put the fact right in your face, somehow- maybe with an fmv/cg. As it would have a massive difference to the story.
(Sorry, that's the best i could come up with).

FreakyLoser

07-06-2007, 07:24 AM

Rinoa definately can't be Ultimacia. SquareSoft would have somehow made it so that you would know whether or not she was the hate-filled sorceress. Also, Ultimacia sent those lizards to kill Rinoa on the first disk. If Ultimacia is really Rinoa, then why in the bloody blazes did she try to kill herself? That probably didn't make any sense.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-06-2007, 07:34 AM

Big McLargeHuge

07-06-2007, 09:26 AM

I can't really contribute to the argument either way (just reading all of the material cooked my brain nicely), except for the fact that Ultimacia being Rinoa does add something important to the story...villain's motive! I mean, otherwise, it's another tired out "Insane sorcerer/sorceress wants to rule the world for no particular reason" story.

So I like to believe that they're one and the same, purely for that reason.

FreakyLoser

07-07-2007, 06:45 AM

Since she is using Gf's she would forgot who she was so she wouldn't recognize her old form, for more about this time paradox thing go to the site indicated in the begining of the thread, if Ultimecia killed her old self it wouldn't matter, because there would be no more pas, so time paradox is not really a possibility

In the game though, didn't everyone agree that they would write about important memories so they wouldn't forget who they were and they could look back on that? Rinoa probably wrote in her diary which meant she would still know who she was and she wouldn't be Ultimacia.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-07-2007, 07:10 AM

In the game though, didn't everyone agree that they would write about important memories so they wouldn't forget who they were and they could look back on that? Rinoa probably wrote in her diary which meant she would still know who she was and she wouldn't be Ultimacia.

yea i rember them bringing that up

IDX

07-07-2007, 09:15 AM

It wasn't to forget who they were. It was so they wouldn't forget period. They won't lose the memories of who they were unless they had amnesia or something. It was to remember the things that they have done so they won't forget about their past like last time. Besides, how do you know that Rinoa or anyone else for that matter kept up with it?

mistekreuz_executor

07-08-2007, 04:54 AM

Indeed, FreakyLoser (Sorry)
They wrote important memories so they could not forget about it...
Where is it? Edea's House, if I remembered.

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 04:55 AM

The only one that you know for sure that kept up with it was Selphie and you can see it if you go back to the study panel where you sit in the beginning of the game. And honestly, the only people I can picture not keeping up with it is Zell and definately Squall.

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 04:56 AM

Indeed, FreakyLoser (Sorry)
They wrote important memories so they could not forget about it...
Where is it? Edea's House, if I remembered.

It was in the basketball court of that one Garden Selphie used to go to on Disc 2. That's where they all agreed to it.

mistekreuz_executor

07-08-2007, 04:59 AM

You got that right.
By the way, Rinoa is not originally Ultimecia, if you recall.
The real Ultimecia is Adel and Edea.

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:02 AM

Wait, when does it mention that? I don't remember that, but I haven't played the game in a while so I keep forgetting little details.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-08-2007, 05:04 AM

i think he is thibking more along the lines of the powers she needs to be able to make the time mess

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:07 AM

Okay. That makes a heck of a lot more sense!

mistekreuz_executor

07-08-2007, 05:09 AM

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-08-2007, 05:09 AM

grr my typos got in the way ...

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:12 AM

Got it.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-08-2007, 05:13 AM

Esthar city, that Laguna person explained it.
Rinoa become a vessel of Ultimecia when Edea is defeated
That time, Squall said she turned very "cold", remember that?
I could still imaging how Squall hits the wall just come near her when he follows Rinoa (she already possessed and walks a bit strangely)

Edea was allso posseds by Ultimecia though Ultimecia is her own person she posses others of the past to try to steal there powers or sue them to make her goals work

mistekreuz_executor

07-08-2007, 05:17 AM

But at the end, Rinoa is no longer Ultimecia's vessel.
The time compression makes Ultimecia's influence off her.
For a proof, we could use Rinoa in the party when we fight Ultimecia.
It's a small detail, though.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-08-2007, 05:21 AM

i am just about tot os this out the window and go with the hole Ultimecia is rinoa form a ntoehr dimension theory witch wont hold water but hey you fix the time line you are in witch kilksl fof the Ultimecia there befor it starts but its finaly fantasy anything and everything is possible

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:21 AM

I believe Squall Leonheart fffan was trying to say that Edea was possessed so she couldn't be the original Ultimacia.

mistekreuz_executor

07-08-2007, 05:24 AM

Got it.
It is before the ending movie, when Squall meet the younger Edea.
That is such a reminiscence.
The last time I played the game is 3 years ago...

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:36 AM

You mean when Ultimacia gives Edea her powers before she dies?

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:37 AM

You mean when Ultimacia gives Edea her powers before she dies?

mistekreuz_executor

07-08-2007, 05:42 AM

Yup, it was exactly when Edea "officially" become Ultimecia's vessel.
Man... perhaps it is time for me to go offline.

FreakyLoser

07-08-2007, 05:45 AM

Then how did she get possessed? That's just weird. Possessed by the person who gave you their powers. Weird, but it can make an uncanny type of sense.

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-08-2007, 05:45 AM

Ultimecia gave her powers as she died so i diont know i dont know mucha bout that hole mess not right now anyway just becuase i am out of it i have ahd to wathc a bunch of 10 year odls all day @_@

terabyte

07-09-2007, 05:49 AM

For the love of god, the whole Rinoa-Ultimecia thing is not true. Yes, Rinoa says something about maybe being an evil sorceress in the future...it's called rounding out the dialogue.

Let's put this thing to bed, already.

IDX

07-09-2007, 09:57 AM

Then how did she get possessed? That's just weird. Possessed by the person who gave you their powers. Weird, but it can make an uncanny type of sense.
You have to remember, this all happened in the past. Ultemicia has no idea that she was the one that made Edea into a sorceress because she's doing all of this from the future. All she knows is that Edea is a sorceress and decided to bring her under her control to find and capture Ellone. And everyone knows Ellone's special ability. That's why, when Edea's accidentally transfered some of her powers to Rinoa, Rinoa was under Ultemicia's control and "unlocked" Adel's cell. Because Adel was supposedly the most feared sorceress of all time, Ultemicia wanted control over her because their combined powers would be...well...horrifying. The she wanted Ellone to send her farther back in time when Adel was still in her prime so she can rule this time. I can't remember if there was a reason to that or just to simply be in charge. This doesn't seem to prove or not prove the whole R=U theory does it. And people know (not sure how reality goes) that when powerful magical people give in, they lose themselves more and more as their powers grow. This will clear some cloudy heads about why she would want to attack Rinoa if they believe the theory, or it won't because they could be entirely different people.

And I think it's time for me to retire because I have work at 7AM and its 3:56AM right now and can barely remember what I just typed.

UltimaN

07-13-2007, 02:32 AM

There is a reason why Ultimecia tried to perform Time Compression. She said during the game "So you are the SeeD destined to fight me" (or something like that). Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future - thus meaning that she has knowledge of the past events. She grew in a world where she was hated and she knew that she will be killed by some soldiers from the past. So she decides to erase all time in order to avoid her destiny - to be killed by SeeD. If there is no past, no soldiers from the past could harm her.

jewess crabcake

07-13-2007, 02:41 AM

Squall_Leonhart_fffan

07-13-2007, 03:05 AM

yet again if this was like a few time loine storys it might be true but sicne i dough they wpoudl rip those off then yea its probly not

IDX

07-13-2007, 03:41 AM

oh god this theory again if, you see yourself in the past, your life would take an unmeasured turn. Also you can't be two places at the same time. Also, if that were true, rinoa would age, become ultimecia, die, become ultimecia again, age, die, and if rinoa keeps turning into Ultimecia, another Rinoa would kill her.
That would only say that history just keeps repeating itself. When Rinoa grows up in the present, Rinoa from the past will kill her. Time would take over from that point because Ultimecia will only be written in the history books from then on.

jewess crabcake

07-13-2007, 04:02 AM

but the fact that Ultimecia exists, while Rinoa fights her proves that if she was Ultimecia, nothing would change if she died.

IDX

07-13-2007, 06:11 AM

If Rinoa dies, assuming the theory is correct, then there will be no Ultimecia in the future. But if reversed, then Ultimecia will still surface at some point. So the only way for any change would be for Rinoa to die before she changes into Ultimecia. Because none of them know what actions she made to become her, then they wouldn't know if they altered the future or if things went as they were supposed to happen if Rinoa is alive until then.

FreakyLoser

07-14-2007, 07:25 AM

No matter how I look at it, I can't see Rinoa being Ultimecia.

FreakyLoser

07-14-2007, 09:00 AM

why do you keep posting that?

FreakyLoser

07-14-2007, 09:05 AM

Go to totally random places and put something different every time. It's more fun.

IDX

07-14-2007, 11:21 AM

What in the world are you talking about?

Agent0042

07-15-2007, 12:08 AM

A spammer that apparently attacked the boards with over 200 spam posts last night, as discussed in this thread (Thread 30368). It's been takien care of though.

IDX

07-15-2007, 03:09 AM

I see.
Very good.

FreakyLoser

07-15-2007, 05:22 AM

Some dude by the name of Super Failboat put a bunch of random posts up before somebody reported him and he got kicked off of the forum. That's why there's a bunch of totally random posts from me. It happened in a ton of forums last night.

IDX

07-15-2007, 07:36 AM

I was all confused at what you were talking about. I thought you were talking to yourself. What was he saying?

FreakyLoser

07-16-2007, 09:45 PM

No, I'm not that crazy. I am crazy, but not to the point of talking to myself.

He kept saying all these nasty things then he's say something totally different and so I just asked him why. He said he was bored so I told him to go and post different things rather than what he was posting. It was pretty annoying really.

mistekreuz_executor

07-18-2007, 06:45 AM

That explained why this "Super Failboat" dude post doesn't seem to appear anywhere.
He got banned?

Agent0042

07-19-2007, 01:34 AM

Yes, that idiot got banned. Now enough about Super Failbot, please. He's gone, and good riddance. Back to the topic of the thread, if anyone still had anything they wanted to discuss about it.

FreakyLoser

07-19-2007, 03:34 AM

Nope I'm good.

IDX

07-19-2007, 07:58 AM

How come they used the same modeled thingy majiger for both Rinoa and Ultimecia?

mistekreuz_executor

07-20-2007, 03:29 PM

How come they used the same modeled thingy majiger for both Rinoa and Ultimecia?

Wha....?
I think they are not similar each other.

I need you guys to help me here, please.
http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?p=844397&posted=1#post844397

IDX

07-21-2007, 12:31 AM

If you look closely, their clothes are very similar. And even though it just a picture of wings on the back of Rinoa's shirt, Ultimecia actually has them. And their shoes. Pretty much the exact same. Not sure about their breast size, but they might be the exact same as well.

mistekreuz_executor

07-21-2007, 01:50 AM

malicioushawk

07-21-2007, 02:02 AM

lol that's funny but all the more reason to make a movie remake of ff8 now after the success of advent children

IDX

07-21-2007, 11:41 AM

You analyze them THAT far???
As I said, I'm not sure about that because I DON'T know. Otherwise, I would've said that they look like they are.

But still, do you think it's just coincidence or that it does mean something?

mistekreuz_executor

07-21-2007, 04:21 PM

As I said, I'm not sure about that because I DON'T know. Otherwise, I would've said that they look like they are.

But still, do you think it's just coincidence or that it does mean something?

Nope
100% pure coincidence
In the year of 2000 and before, Squaresoft only masters that kind of character-styling.
Until the graphical revolution of FF IX and FF transmigration to PS 2, it is...

IDX

07-22-2007, 08:47 AM

But you can't deny the fact that she could've been modeled after Edea instead. Or maybe Adel. Instead, they decided to use Rinoa. Either way, it's more of a 50-50 shot of it meaning something or being coincidental.

silver rose

08-14-2007, 08:39 PM

Interesting theory. With it the game has more sense ,at least to me.

ThisIsMe2

08-15-2007, 10:45 PM

squallone

08-16-2007, 01:29 AM

rinoa is just rinoa

Argus Zephyrus

08-16-2007, 06:01 PM

Naw, she's actually an andromedan sent to infiltrate Earth's gene pool.

Babelyy

08-19-2007, 04:05 PM

I believe in the Rinoa/Ulti theory, and have since I first played the game when it came out, I havent played since, but off an on I have been reading the arguments from people saying it is and isn't.

I agree with the points made from the original poster, they make sense.. ultimecia seemed to be an off stage villian from the start who only wanted to take over the world with time, and only that.. if that was a movie it would be a B rating conflict. Add the main chick being the main villian with noticeable connections but so minor that the FFVIII players were split on if they were one in the same or not.. makes for a great open never ending discussion.

I just think there has to be more to Ultimecia then just wanting to go back in time and take over the world.. big woop.

Goran

11-14-2007, 05:16 PM

Hi everybody. Let me introduce my self. My name is Goran, and I`m a student of japanese language (right now I have the privelege to be in this beautiful contry of Japan). I`ve played FF VIII since the year 2000 (for about ten, or more times) and it never occured to me that a hypothesis like this could exist (well, frankly, I`ve realised only two years ago that Laguna is Squall`s father :( ).
Anyway, this sbject has seen no reactions for quite some time, and I`m surprised about that. As soon I found out about this Rinoa=Ultimecia thing, I was extremly intrigued by it (3 days ago). How didn`t I seen it before, in a game that has been a part of almost half of my life. I guess that is why so many people react to it so aggressively.

I don`t now wether it was mentioned before on this forum, but there is something about the linguistic aspect of this theory. Namely, Ultimecia is writen in japanese version of the game as Arutemishia, which is also used in japanese for queen Artemisia.
Queen Artemisia had a husband AND a brother, king Mausolos (rings a bell?). He died young, and she lived on. In his honor and love, she erected the most beautiful tomb the world of antic Mediteranian has ever seen - one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus.

She is also known for drinking her late husbands ashes every day (which sugests her falling into despair) for two years.

This alone is interesting enough, BUT, I went to Wiki to see some other stuff about it, and found something I didn`t expect. The symbol of king Mausolos was... a lion. It is found on the face of the coins used during his reign, and also, ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING STATUES from the tomb Artemisia had had built is that of a lion...

A hint? An answer? Please, I would like to read some more opinions on this. If it somehow turns out to be true, than I`ll know that I`ve been playing (and will play) one of the best games ever made.

Psycho_Cyan

11-18-2007, 10:26 AM

Welcome to FFS, Goran. Hope you post more. :D

As for the topic, I've said it before in an R=U thread, and I still think this way, so I'll say it again. Unfortunately for Squall of SeeD, who wrote a novella on the topic in an ancient thread (use the forum's search feature, top-right of the screen), the R=U theory is bunk simply because it follows circular reasoning. (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning) In short, the R=U crowd presupposes that Rinoa is Ultimecia when they look at the facts. When you do that, many things take on new meaning, but it ultimately proves nothing, as you've already assumed what the facts are supposed to prove. To quote the Wiki article I linked, "In other words, the argument fails to prove anything because it applies what it is supposed to prove as fact."

Goran

11-18-2007, 01:13 PM

Even though I don`t understand a thing that you`re saying (and I`ve just read the Wiki page =) ), I`m probably aware of the fact I`m not presenting evidence to prove or dissaprove anything. It is simply based on the fact that with FF8 Square has decided to give the fans of Final Fantasy something to really smash their heads about (and, if I may say so, it hasn`t been repeated ever since).
The topic R=U sounds really interesting, but it is true - it has been concieved in our little brains with no motive or real proof whatsoever. Even now new questiones bump into my mind.

Final Fantasy is one of the worlds greatest game series. If so, why would the main vilain of its 8th incarnation be so stereotypical and... boring? Why, after the unremembered success of FF7 and its groundbreaking vilain, Sephiroth, would it turn out like this? I guess all our hypothesis` are all just a big lie and Final Fantasy VIII is just another game that is fun to play, not to enjoy its uniqueness in an industry that has not seen so many special titles...
People drawed this question hoping that they will get an answer from the game`s creators. I will probably not rest untill I get a definite proof of corectness or incorectness of this theory. What is true, though, is that so far I have not seen neither!

So people, let`s get tingled in logical paradoxes for a while longer! :smrt:

Karmi15

11-18-2007, 02:04 PM

*rubs head* Sure I support Yui absolutely, even kinda posted diagreement comments on the videos in Youtube trying to proof about Ultimecia is Rinoa...
So this is just my final say: I don't believe Rinoa is Ultimecia.

FF1WithAllThieves

11-18-2007, 09:04 PM

What CyanCyde was essentially saying about the circular logic is that the R=U theory only proves that it could be true if there were some reason for us to believe it is. There's nothing in the game to suggest that it's true; it simply provides certain details that make it possible. It's a very weak argument, and what ultimately kills it is that Square would have milked an interesting plot point like that for all it was worth if that had been the case, and they didn't.

R=U is about as logically sound as Paul is dead, really.

Cloukyo

11-25-2007, 09:17 PM

Hello gentlemen. I recently replayed final fantasy 8 after leaving it for years upon years. Of course this "theory" of Rinoa being Ultimecia has floating around for ages, but honestly lets look at it this way:

1. the plot makes more sense if rinoa is ultimecia, it gives her a motive, she wanted to be with squall forever (remember how she said she wanted time to stop?) so she compressed time to meet him again. Was that crap about her wanting him to kill her if she was evil just put there for jokes? No, it was a foreshadowing. Thats how plot devices work baby.
2. there are plenty of hints that they are, no facts that she isn't all these things that "disprove" theories give no proof of their own that Ulti ISN'T Rinoa. Seeing as the Rinoa theory makes more sense, surely thats the one we should lean to?
3. Its true that there isnt much clue to them being the same person. If it really was a plot device they would've made it more obvious, at least on the same level of Laguna being Squalls father (why did so many people not realise this by the way?). Chances are they were GOING to put it in the plot but took it out in the last minute because they thought it was too depressing/complicated.

When you think about it, you've just killed the main heroine. AND you know she she's lived thousands of years of misery after Squall has died. Thats pretty depressing, I can see why Square would've decided to have taken it out.

Thats my interpretation. Rinoa IS definitely Ultimecia because the plot only makes sense if it is so, it ties in all the themes of love and time and places shared yadda yadda. BUT there are no clues to it being FACT because square watered the plot down somewhere along the line. Chances are what they did was they just took out one big scene where ultimecia said it (probably at the end when you beat her final form) but couldn't be arsed to take out all the little hints which people found.

Oh, and before guys say "oh you're reading into hints because of what you already think"

well erm... thats how stories work. You reread a book and you see little clues and foreshadowings and think "OOOH So THATS what that meant". A lot of coincidences dont make sense without the explanation. You can rationalise the fact that the castle happened to be waiting at exactly the same spot Rinoa said she would always wait for squall, or the fact that she said she wanted time to stop, or that she created a GF out of his memory, or the fact that ultimecias face is superimposed onto her one in the final FMV, or the fact that Ultimecia went back to the orphanage when she was dying during the time compression (think of any place important to you if you want to end up somewhere during compressed time? it looks like she overshot by a few years though), or that she knew about ellone and her powers (I find it hard to believe ellones powers became common knowledge, very few people knew about it during the game, and Laguna wouldn't allow it to get publicised c'mon), or that she has a gold lion on top of her throne, or that her damned GF is a lion, or that crap about sorceresses going crazy without their knights and Rinoa would eventually lose her knight cos yes they DO live longer than normal people (otherwise Edea must use some awesome beauty cream, and give it to her husband who looks like hes 50, and dont get me started on how old Adel is, how old does she look? not one wrinkle on her, but how long has she ruled Esthar?). When you put them together. Its just too much.

Her motives were never given. Loads of characters in the game speculated that she was just crazy or evil. All ultimecia said was "Kurse all SeeDs" rightly so! They've been trying to kill her and her kind of generations. And that she wants people to reflect on their pasts because blah blah blah. She's probably filled with spite and hate, I dont blame her.

EDIT: Sorry for the bump, I was just searching for "Ultimecia is Rinoa" on google after being intruiged by playing the game again

Psycho_Cyan

11-26-2007, 09:10 AM

@ Cloukyo: Y'know that "circular reasoning" bit I went on about in my last post in this thread? Your post is a perfect example of that. Thanks! In all seriousness, though...

Chances are they were GOING to put it in the plot but took it out in the last minute because they thought it was too depressing/complicated.

Lieutenant Dan has more legs than that argument. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing what Squeenix's intentions were. Claiming as much is shenanigans at best.

well erm... thats how stories work. You reread a book and you see little clues and foreshadowings and think "OOOH So THATS what that meant".

Well erm... no. The climax and/or ending of a well-written story illuminate the 'little clues and foreshadowings,' if you actually pay attention. If you have to insert your own conclusions to make a story make sense, then you either missed the boat entirely or the story failed entirely.

or that she has a gold lion on top of her throne, or that her damned GF is a lion, or that crap about sorceresses going crazy without their knights and Rinoa would eventually lose her knight cos yes they DO live longer than normal people

Seeing as Ultimecia can "reach" into the past to possess other sorceresses, she very easily could've seen Squall's lion stuff and did all that just to screw with him. Also, I never saw any actual proof of sorceress's longevity or their (in)sanity without their knights.

EDIT: Sorry for the bump, I was just searching for "Ultimecia is Rinoa" on google after being intruiged by playing the game again

'Tis far better to post in a week-old topic than to start a new thread that would only get closed post haste.

Goran

11-26-2007, 11:51 AM

Seeing as Ultimecia can "reach" into the past to possess other sorceresses, she very easily could've seen Squall's lion stuff and did all that just to screw with him. Also, I never saw any actual proof of sorceress's longevity or their (in)sanity without their knights.

OK! I didn`t quite get that circular reasoning stuff, but (in case I did) I think you are doing exactly the same thing. You say she COULD HAVE seen Squall... That is not sufficient! ...Good point on the lack of proof about the sorceress`s longevity and insanity, though.

We do not know enough from the game, which leaves us musing on subjects like this. The only way to get some answers is from the makers themselves (WE MUST TURN TO THE MAKERS!). And, knowing most big, evil corporations, Square-Enix will only tell people off.

I think there are pretty good arguments among this stuff here that everyone writes. Sceptics should probably play the game once with those arguments on mind, and leave behind most of the stuff that have engraved in their minds throughout the years of FF8 consuming (just as I have :) ).

I would like to ask a question to all sceptics out there. What was the 1st thing that has crossed your mind when you first heard of this Ultimecia=Rinoa theory?

Cloukyo

11-26-2007, 01:02 PM

My reasoning is as circular is as yours is. You are coming up with other interpretations of the facts I put forward with little basis

"maybe she just made it a lion to fuck with squall"

thats possible but it doesn't make as much (and isn't as cool) as her just being rinoa who has long since become obsessed with squall since his death.

As for you saying I missed the boat or the story failed

well

the story DID fail

Ultimecia didn't make any sense. But she does if you add this missing jigsaw puzzle. I maintain it was meant to be there but they just took it out at the last second

Espanha

11-26-2007, 02:02 PM

What was the 1st thing that has crossed your mind when you first heard of this Ultimecia=Rinoa theory?

"Heh, bullshit."

FF1WithAllThieves

11-26-2007, 02:05 PM

You're entirely missing the point; CyanCyde was simply saying that there isn't a particularly compelling reason to believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia because other solutions are very possible. If there really were proof that the theory is false then there wouldn't be an argument.

But the biggest problem with your argument is the extreme amount of speculation it involves. To say that the way it fits into the plot, even though it isn't explicitly stated, shows that Square meant to include it but edited it out is a bit of a stretch. Be careful when you say something like that; do you really think the game designers came up with the whole plot and then just hastily said "Whoops! That ending is depressing. Let's just take out the reveal at the end and have the plot make no sense"?

If they had included a statement of the plot device, then such analyses of the plot would be very appropriate, but the truth of the matter is that Ultimecia could very possibly just be another sorceress, and the fact that they don't have a big reveal at the end essentially proves that.

About the Griever point, I interpreted Griever to be a powerful entity that was embodied by Squall's ring; the most obvious clue to this is that the ring refills the life support on Rinoa's spacesuit. And if Griever is a separate entity, there are many possible explanations as to why Ultimecia uses him, but most likely he was just the most powerful GF, so she picked him to gain more power.

And if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why didn't she just forget about Squall because of junctioning GFs? Heh, you have to remember that FFVIII is completely full of plot holes because it uses a cheap, contrived plot device like that and because of the time travel/compression. Rinoa is Ultimecia is completely full of temporal paradoxes; I'll point some out if you insist.

Cloukyo

11-26-2007, 02:18 PM

do you really think the game designers came up with the whole plot and then just hastily said "Whoops! That ending is depressing. Let's just take out the reveal at the end and have the plot make no sense"?

Yeah, you're giving them way too much credit, heavily marketed franchises such as disney movies or final fantasy games will be raped by the editors to hell to make it more palatable to the public.

I just think the R=U argument makes more sense than the alternative, it really does. You can come up with explanations for many of the examples I gave, like greiver, why the castle is at the orphanage etc. But when there are SO many it becomes more than a coincidence that one is just looking too deep in to.

EDIT:

cos lets face it. In the end, the plot makes no sense without the R=U theory but makes lots of sense with it Its a jigsaw puzzle that fits much better than the shitty plot hole that we were given. The enlish literature student in me just cant let this thematic fallacy go. It would've been GREAT with that plot point.

Being able to tie together loads of themes and occurances is much better than giving an arbitrary explanation for every single one (which people do for every R=U argument). If they tie together, surely its more likely, than something which makes no significance to the plot

"well maybe the castle is at the orphanage because thats where she parked it when fighting SeeDs"

well yeah MAYBE. But why? It seems pretty important that its at SUCH a significant place in the plot, EXACTLY where Rinoa said she'd always be waiting for squall. Am I really looking for something that isn't there? I dont think so, there MUST be some sort of significance to something like that When you have a scene where Rinoa says she will be waiting for squall at the place and she wants time to stop. And then you have a character who is waiting exactly at that spot AND wants to compress time. ALSO she said she wants squall to kill him if she turns evil. OH SHI- thats exactly what happens to Ultimecia.

The argument of "well howcome ultimecia doesn't die if she kills rinoa in the final battle" is the stupidest argument ever. We are to assume in the official plot Rinoa is not killed by Ultimecia, anyway as far as I know she doesn't kill her opponents, she knocks them out and then absorbs them into time (to make them her slaves for eternity)

Hey, yeah, maybe that lion was there to psyche squall out

OR

OR

lets choose something that makes sense. Ultimecia has a thing for lions, the main characters second name is lion hearts and he has a lion ring and his coat resembles a lions mane and etc etc etc.

EDIT 2:

Ahem, the mass at which I am writing this implies I care about this with all my heart but actually I type really fast. I'm writing up a feature article and and killing brain time inbetween lack of ideas...

Goran

11-26-2007, 02:27 PM

And if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why didn't she just forget about Squall because of junctioning GFs? Heh, you have to remember that FFVIII is completely full of plot holes because it uses a cheap, contrived plot device like that and because of the time travel/compression. Rinoa is Ultimecia is completely full of temporal paradoxes; I'll point some out if you insist.

I`m not so sure what do yo mean with Rinoa not forgeting about Squall because of junctioning GFs... Not all memories are wiped out when using GFs. You know how Squall forgot about the entire orphanage, but only had partial memories of Ellone?

Anyway, it is useless to go in to those temporal thingimajigs that you were talking about, because there are many theories of how a time travel works, so...

FF1WithAllThieves

11-26-2007, 02:30 PM

And none of those theories apply with any kind of sense if Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Goran

11-26-2007, 02:53 PM

I thought that the words that Ultimecia pronounces at the end of the final battle provided a hint about Rinoa (like, she`s yearning for the past...). But I found some stuff that should shut us all up! Look on this link

http://www.geocities.com/auramaster/interp8.html

Agent0042

11-26-2007, 04:48 PM

But I found some stuff that should shut us all up!
Oh, if only that were true...

matt damon

11-26-2007, 04:59 PM

omg, this thread AGAIN?! i swear, this same topic has been around forever and been discussed to death.

Psycho_Cyan

11-26-2007, 09:17 PM

My reasoning is as circular is as yours is. You are coming up with other interpretations of the facts I put forward with little basis

You fail completely. First, you completely misunderstand the concept of circular reasoning. Second, you didn't put any real facts forward. Third, given the lack of facts in the matter, any remotely plausible explanation is just as, well, plausible as the R=U theories.

"maybe she just made it a lion to fuck with squall"

thats possible but it doesn't make as much (and isn't as cool) as her just being rinoa who has long since become obsessed with squall since his death.

Make as much....sense, perhaps? As I've already said, given the lack of facts, it's just as plausible as R=U. Plus, arguing that something doesn't work because it "isn't as cool" as another explanation is simply retarded.

Ultimecia didn't make any sense. But she does if you add this missing jigsaw puzzle. I maintain it was meant to be there but they just took it out at the last second

I made this point before, and you conviently ignored it, but neither you nor I have any way of knowing what Squeenix's intentions were. So you can maintain your assertion all you want, but as I've said earlier, Lieutenant Dan has more legs than that argument.

One final point: Wasn't there an Ultimania Guide released for FFVIII? Isn't the Ultimania Guide the end-all, be-all for plot-related questions? If the answer to both questions are yes, then did the Guide state that Rinoa and Ultimecia are one and the same? If the answer to that is no, then what's the point in continuing to speculate about all this?

FF1WithAllThieves

11-26-2007, 09:20 PM

The orphanage already has significance without R=U; it's the place that the party keeps it in their minds as the destination, and with spacetime a little messed up, the fact that the castle is there doesn't necessarily mean that it's significant.

To say that the plot doesn't make any sense without R=U doesn't make any sense. The game simply gives you the impression that Ultimecia is just a sorceress who has been feared and hated and who plans to destroy the fabric of spacetime. I still am not convinced enough to believe that it's true; it clearly could work out in the plot, but other interpretations are just as sound. Furthermore, there's nothing to suggest that sorceresses live forever, and it seems illogical that Rinoa lived on and didn't simply pass on her powers and kill herself when Squall died. Rinoa never would have become a sorceress if Ultimecia hadn't possessed Edea; essentially, that creates a time loop paradox, and you don't want to insert one of those unless you have to. Edea's sorceress powers are NOT one such paradox because she tells you that she became a sorceress at a very young age; thus, when Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, Edea is really receiving the powers of another sorceress for the second time.

There are plot holes in R=U that I will admit are not irreconcilable, but they show that it doesn't really deserve any credibility above other interpretations.

Edit: I read this on another forum:
"The Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide, an official publication of Square-Enix, states that Witches have ordinary human lifespans."
The argument is officially dead if that is the case.

Pos

11-26-2007, 10:05 PM

Talk about a old debate.

Thought people would have clocked on by now. Ultemicia is not Rinoa.

Its pretty obvious.

Psycho_Cyan

11-26-2007, 11:04 PM

Talk about a old debate.

Um, just about anything involving just about any FF is an "old debate."

Cloukyo

11-27-2007, 01:33 AM

I dont think people realise that I've already stated that I realise that the canon story says that R isn't U. There aren't enough clues in the game overall and if she really was they would've made it at least as obvious as Laguna being Squalls dad (which is blindingly obvious but how many facts do we have to back it up? One of Lagunas kids was sent to an orphanage, laguna and squall are thematically similar names, the moombas recognised squalls blood, and kiros and ward know squall's parents. Really without the moomba thing Ithink people would be just as stubborn about the squall and laguna thing, R=U is one step short of that)

I dont think square will ever say that Rinoa is Ultimecia because I'm aware its not in the canon plot. I maintain that the original plot must have had that paradox in there because otherwise the entire plot is crap and pointless. The fact that ONE sentence could've changed it, just near the end someone realising that Rinoa was Ultimecia, and considering its SUCH and obvious plot twist, really points to the fact that someone who was writing the plot must have thought it up in some point of the development of the plot and got shot down. (by the way things like ultimania are not written by the official writers, again it just says what square wants it to say)

There are a lot of movies and books which get watered down for the public, many books dont get published until editors moan and bitch to writers to change lots of things, making the original motif disappear. Hollywood movies are made to appeal to the masses, so many things are comprimised here, consider how Treasure Planet was pretty much the only intelligent and mature disney cartoon made and it bombed at the box office, obviously disney will shy away from that from now on. You'd have to be a retard to have not at some point come up with the R=U plot point if you were a writer for the game, there are enough clues on the level of Laguna being Squalls dad in the game (actually there are more...) its just missing that ONE little thing that could've made it definite.

This is a total shame and I refuse to believe that such a good game can have such a horrible plot, hence isn't it better to believe in that one little thing that makes the ENTIRE motif of love and soceresses make sense? It had to originally be there!

As for my understanding of Circular logic. Its believing something before you have the proof and then finding the proof in things that allude to it. This is not the case with R=U theorists because no-one TOLD me that R=U and then I looked around in the game to prove it. I came up to the conclusion by myself a long time ago from the evidence I saw in the game. Things which had no significance and had no reason to be there DID have significance if this one thread tied together. I could see this as clear as day. The moment I saw Ultimecias face superimposed on Rinoas face the first time I finished the game I thought "ah, this must be the part where they reveal that Rinoa is Ultimecia, pretty cool how they left it til the end".

This doesn't happen and I was left thinking how bullshit it was that they OBVIOUSLY decided to leave it out after coming up with it.

Sorry, its just nonsensical without that. The plot is entire bullshit and has the worst FF plot ever if its not true. If it IS true then it has one of the best FF plots (which isn't saying much as most FF stories are contrived and cliche) which I'd much rather choose.

Again. I'm aware its non-canon. But many people accept the original versions of movies and books as definitive versions things (Blade Runner before the ridiculous edits, the Wasteland before Ezra Pound got to it, everyone is obsessed with directors cuts and extended scenes, usually these add more to the works and make them much better) in this case there is some speculation and lots of room to be wrong.

But like I said it makes much more sense. To people who say "but all these arbitrary definitions make just as much sense" no they do not. They are perhaps just as plausible, but they end up making important scenes arbitrary and pointless when they could mean much more.

EDIT: the other thing I forgot is that in the europeans versions of the game like the german version, her name isn't ultimecia its artemesia, and its arguably what her name is in the japanese version too. You all know this argument. Is this a coincidence? They decided to choose this name just cos it sounded cool right? Not cos she was a person who was madly in love with her husband and wanted to be with him past death...

FF1WithAllThieves

11-27-2007, 02:18 AM

I maintain that the original plot must have had that paradox in there because otherwise the entire plot is crap and pointless.

Aha! Stop right there!

"Oh shit, all of us are from the same orphanage and now we're brought back together for no reason! Hmmm, must be because we forgot everything because of GFs."

The entire plot is pretty pointless when they throw this bit of trash in. I believe it's a poorly executed storyline anyway; saying that it is such without R=U is moot.

Cloukyo

11-27-2007, 02:21 AM

That part was executed horribly. But it makes sense if you consider that both edea and cid knew that the kids grew up in the same orphanage. It wasn't a coincidence, they brought them together on purpose. Edea also knew that squall was destined to kill Ultimecia because of what happened in the past when squall met her in the past, explaining why Cid was so adamant to make squall the leader of SeeD.

Thats FF8s problem. The plot is great but its executed disgustingly, thats why the huge gap explaining how in fuck everything is linked was missing.

Edit: its a circle similar to R=U

Edea met grown up squall in the past, she gained ultimecia's powers (I'm not sure about the significance about why this is though, it doesn't tie into the plot unless this is the point where she first became a sorceress... which it wasn't) squall told her that he would be fighting Ultimecia in the future and that she would come up with the idea of SeeD to fight the sorceress. Of course after getting funding from NORG the first few people to join SeeD would be the people from her orphanage, the ones who hadn't left that is. This entire time Edea and Cid were aware that it'd be Squall who would defeat the sorceress. And so when the sorceress popped up, Cid begrudgingly brought together the original SeeD members who he knew would beat Ultimecia even though they didn't remember and even though it meant his wife might die.

He transferred selphie to balamb, recruited zell and bunched him together with seifer and squall in their first mission. Got irvine specially to join them in the sharpshooting mission, and hoped it'd be a matter of time when they would get their memory back.

If they explained it like that instead of "HEEEEY I REMEMBER YOU NOW" then of course it would've been better. Its another example of a decent plot twist gone to waste cos of poor execution.

Psycho_Cyan

11-27-2007, 04:24 AM

This is a total shame and I refuse to believe that such a good game can have such a horrible plot, hence isn't it better to believe in that one little thing that makes the ENTIRE motif of love and soceresses make sense? It had to originally be there!

And here the debate ends. This isn't about whether or not Rinoa is Ultimecia; this has about getting your fanboy on and grasping at whatever you can to like this game for whatever reason. That's all well and good, but arguing that something is so just so you can like it is all kinds of lame. If you want to debate FFVIII's quality, go to the Stand/Fall thread.

I have one final point, one that I've made twice in this thread and at least four times in the Stand/Fall thread. Since I'm apparently stubborn enough to try to get this through your head, I'll give it one last try. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing Squeenix's intentions with this game. Any argument that claims as much has fewer legs than Lieutenant Dan. In case you missed the reference the first two times, Forrest Gump so elequently stated "but Lieutenant Dan, you ain't got no legs!"

Cloukyo

11-27-2007, 04:29 AM

Goran

11-27-2007, 09:54 AM

Yeah but its jokes to speculate about.

Oh come on this isn't what my life is about. This thread is here for a reason isn't it?

Anyway I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, I didn't give a crap about FF8 until a few days ago when I finished it again a few days ago. I'd rather call it caught up in the shameful fail of a potentially great plot.

This argument doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. I'm sure the fact that there are clues everywhere are "legs" enough, and the fact that the explanations for these clues are pointless and dont explain why they're in the game (why bother making her GF a lion called greiver, surely there must be a significance?) link them all together.

Anyway whatever - I only care enough about this to go on for so long.

Come on people! You, Cloukyo (or something...), you shouldn`t let that evil moogle`s words put you down! You should write your entire opinion on this matter. Maybe something will come out from this discusion... eventually.

Participants in forums should not shut each other up. Opinions should be brought up and brought down, without stuff like: Oh, shut up! You know nothing, and I know everything.

Rinoa never would have become a sorceress if Ultimecia hadn't possessed Edea; essentially, that creates a time loop paradox, and you don't want to insert one of those unless you have to. Edea's sorceress powers are NOT one such paradox because she tells you that she became a sorceress at a very young age; thus, when Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, Edea is really receiving the powers of another sorceress for the second time.

There are plot holes in R=U that I will admit are not irreconcilable, but they show that it doesn't really deserve any credibility above other interpretations.

Here I would like to make another conection to the R=U theory (not quite sound though). Edea recieved sorceress` powers twice. Right? Rinoa recieved sorceress powers when they beat Edea in Galbadia garden. Edea continued to be a sorceress after that battle. Opinions, anybody?

FF1WithAllThieves

11-27-2007, 01:57 PM

Don't think Edea was still a sorceress after her powers were transferred to Rinoa. I think all of her sorceress powers were transferred.

Goran

11-27-2007, 02:12 PM

No, no. I think she went to Esthar to see doctor Odine so that he would help her supress her powers, thus protecting her from Ultimecia...

Agent0042

11-27-2007, 04:50 PM

You're forgetting that she said that she went to go see Doc Odine, only to find out that she didn't need him because she had already transferred her powers.

lovejoy23

12-14-2007, 03:28 PM

Hi everyone, I am new to the forums and found this idea of R=U to be very interesting. Although I played through the game when it first came out, I did not remember much except you never see the final boss until the very end (which I hated), yet I recently played through it again. I think that the R=U theory (even though it is a theory) makes the game to have the ability to of had one of the greatest plots of all time.

I mainly wanted to point out two quotes from the game that stuck out to me about the topic.

1. Rinoa - "I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with you..."

If this does not sound like a reason for time compression I don't know what does.

2. Rinoa - "But Edea's still... I can't guarantee anything, either, if Ultimecia
possesses me again... You saw me. She controlled me in outerspace and made me break Adel's seal. What might happen next time? What will I end up doing? Will I end up fighting everyone? ...Scary thought, isn't it?"

Squall - "(Rinoa......) (Even if you end up as the world's enemy.) (I'll...)
(I'll be your knight.)"

Squall thought to himself that even if Rinoa was the worlds enemy, he would still be her knight.

I think that these quotes are a good basis for the theory even though they do not prove anything. Does anyone know if square had written a back story before they made the game that explained more about some of the characters we don't know much about? The possibilities of a story for a sequel to FFVIII are limitless.

Last thing:
For those who think R=U is a good theory, what do you think about the possibility of, instead of Squall dying and Rinoa going insane, Rinoa turns Squall in Griever, which is a much more fitting role for her knight as a powerful sorcerress. I know we have no proof the GF's were actually humans but there is not any against is either.

Agent0042

12-14-2007, 04:11 PM

Didn't I close this? Is this going to be the topic that keeps resurfacing forever? Starting to get a bit bored with coming on and seeing "R=U" every other week.

Psycho_Cyan

12-16-2007, 03:53 AM

Didn't I close this? Is this going to be the topic that keeps resurfacing forever? Starting to get a bit bored with coming on and seeing "R=U" every other week.

And it's more or less exactly what Cloukyo said. Which is more or less exactly what every single person hooked on this crap has ever said. Yeah, I'm starting to get bored, too.

FainaruFantaji

12-16-2007, 10:11 AM

Sorry to post here, but i agree with the last two posts...

Agent0042

12-16-2007, 07:49 PM

Closing...