You know, I thought about it, and I think it's not Sephy's fault. It's all Hojo's fault. Hojo is the bad guy, not Sephy. You see, it was Hojo that made Sephy the way he is. Sephy wasn't even given the chance to choose and Hojo ruthlessly used his own son for his twisted experiments. It's no wonder Sephy went crazy when he saw all those terrible things on Mt. Nibel.

Hojo infused him with Jenova cells, making him the way he is, not even giving him a choice. Sephy is just another one of Hojo's victims, nothing more. Since he read all about the Jenova project, he believed that Jenova was his mother, and this belief was further supported by the fact that Sephy probably felt the same attraction to Jenova as did all the other clones. It was all Hojo's fault that Sephy was feeling this way. If Hojo didn't do all this to him, then Sephy wouldn't have killed Aerith, because he believed that he had to become the ruler of the planet, and that's why he killed her, since she was a threat to him.

All this happened because of Hojo. I think it's not Sephy's fault. It's Hojo that's the real bad guy. He's a power-hungry, sick man. I don't want everyone to hate Sephy. It was really not his fault. He was manipulated by Hojo. He didn't even know. Poor Sephy...

What do you guys think about all this?

well, if someone that was mentally and physically abused by their parents went out and killed your entire family...you wouldnt hate him? It wasnt his fault, and he never asked to be subjected to the years of torement and neglect...so you shouldnt hate him...you should let him walk free...and lock his parents away or put em on deathrow for it?

Yes as long as he has a revival object good enough to undo what hes done :)

I agree, it's Hojo's fault, not Sephy. He could have been a normal kid, but he wasn't. And Sephy isn't the only one's like Hojo messed up.

Vincent
Cloud
Zack

Hojo is an evil man......

I find it sad that this thread will never be the philosophical debate that it has the potential to become.

rabit monkey, why dont YOU KEEP YOUR STUPID, UNNECASARY COMMENTS TO YOURSELF!!! NO ONE LIKE YOU!! ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME FOR YOU TO POST, GO AWAY, unless you have something constructive to say
bilz

rabit monkey, why dont YOU KEEP YOUR STUPID, UNNECASARY COMMENTS TO YOURSELF!!! NO ONE LIKE YOU!! ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME FOR YOU TO POST, GO AWAY, unless you have something constructive to say
bilz

Hypocrite.

Generic-aeris-name was also dead wrong. I thought your post was the only one since the first that had any kind of relevance at all, RM.

Well, yeah, I agree with most of you. I know that Sephy did a lot of things he shouldn't have done, but he was manipulated, and I think everyone will agree that it's not his fault. I don't hate the guy.

Unseen, I know I would hate someone who killed my entire family, but if I was to find out that that someone was treated the way Sephy was treated (or ina simillar way), I think I would show some understanding because you can't blame him for what has been done to him. Of course I couldn't forgive him, but I would definetly show some understanding. This may sound strange, but that's the way I am.

To help you all out, you�re debating free will against determinism. Free will, as most probably can guess, says that we have the ability to choose every action we do, and because of that we must be held accountable for our actions. Determinism states that, because of either an internal or external cause, we are unable to control our actions. Everything we do is predictable if we know enough about the person. If you�re saying that you really can�t blame him for his actions, then you are saying he had no choice in the matter, and are saying that there is no free will. It�s a double-edged sword, really, because it means that, if you do enough research, you can determine who the mass murderers of the world are and prevent it. However, it also means that no one is responsible for his or her own actions, hence nullifying accountability.

I just figured the two sides should be clearly defined.

no were are not, we are saying that he had a small amount of control over the outcome of how he killed people, who he killed ect ect. sephy had a choice of how the outcome of his actions of evilness were planned, rabbidmonkey, for once you kinda make sence, but a lot of people around here will not understand big words, such as me, im only 13 and its hard to understand, i will divy it down.

he says that freewill, we can do what ever we want, but then we must take the outcome of our actions,
determinism however says we do not have the freewill, that we can see what people will do if we know them well, and if you say you cant blame him them your saying that he didnt have any control on what he was doing.

maybe though jenova was controling him, jenova maybe told him that his purpose in life was to get all the power. so whether it is or isnt his fault we will need to fnd out a bot more, maybe advent children will clean it up

You distorted what I said.

First of all, everyone that posts in this thread will be debating between either free will or determinism. Starting your post out with �no we�re not� shows that you either didn�t understand what I said, or you just want to say I�m wrong merely to say I�m wrong.

You also didn�t do a very good job at simplifying what I said. You got the basics of free will right, but not many people would really understand what you mean by �then we must take the outcome of our actions�. In this debate, people who think Sepherioth had free will believe that he had control over his actions, to some degree. If he has control over his actions then he can be blamed for those actions.

Determinism is where you really didn�t understand what I was saying. Determinism doesn�t say that you can predict people�s actions, period. There is more to it than that. It just says that, if you had enough information about someone (like the way their brain works and how they were raised in their family) you could predict their actions. There are other areas of determinism as well, such as religions that believe their god controls everything that happens. However, that�s not the point. The point is, that if someone�s actions are not really theirs, but rather their brain telling them to do so, or god telling them to do so, or society telling them to do so (or anything else), then that person should not be held responsible for his or her actions.

As for the Jenova aspect, if you believe that Jenova was telling him to do something wrong, then you�re saying you agree with determinism. If someone says that he�s still responsible for his actions regardless, then they are taking the side of free will.

EDIT: Also, not knowing the meaning of a word isn't an excuse. http://dictionary.reference.com/

o come on rabbid monkey, please just arhhhhhhhh, its past the stage of agression, your giving me a dictonary website, im 13 i dont care!!! and im not agrreing to either of them to a extent, im saying sephy had no control over whether being evil or not, but he had control over in which way he was evil

Either way, it's pretty stupid:

A. Sephiroth made a conscious choice to be evil based on some silly emo mood swing.
B. Sephiroth is the product of his environment and upbringing because he's too much of a whiny bitch to be his own man.

Bad character either way.

hahaha, prak you actually made me laugh

If he had control over how he was going to act, then he had control over acting in an evil manner.

Also, saying you don't care because you're 13 doesn't cut it. If you're going to complain about not understanding the words I use then don't complain when I give you a tool to help you understand them. It's counterproductive. Honestly, �I�m 13� isn�t an excuse. �I�m lazy� sounds more like it.

13-lazy, it practically means the same thing dude, and please do not insult me ever again, im not in the mood for you to get high over saying sarcy things to younger people

I'm not getting uppity. As a matter of fact, I wasn't rude to you until you were rude to me. If you don't show someone mutual respect then you shouldn�t expect respect in return. I do honestly hope that you get over the, �I�m 13 so it is ok that I act this way� thing, though, for your sake. It's understandable that you may not be in the best mood, but acting like a jackass online isn't going to help matters, especially when the person you're being a jackass to has been civil. I expressed an opinion in this thread; you blew up at me for no reason. I added to the discussion, and you commented on it. I corrected what you didn't understand, and you went on a speech about how you're only 13. Now you're trying to say I'm the jackass here? Learn to take responsibility or something.

o yea, becuase im sure you really was trying to help me by giving me a dictonary website... i know what you were doing, trying to mug me infront of everyone, and it probobly worked hehe but i dont really care

ok 1 more thing,

You also didn�t do a very good job at simplifying what I said. honestly "im 13" doesnt cut it "im lazy" sounds more like it.

^^^ you actually said that, ok ok, so if i was lazt why would i try and help other people understand what you were saying? if i was being just a lazy fuck why would i bother? please answer me that question

o yea, becuase im sure you really was trying to help me by giving me a dictonary website...

That was more because I wanted to point out that there really isn't an excuse for not knowing what the meaning of a word is.


i know what you were doing, trying to mug me infront of everyone, and it probobly worked hehe but i dont really care

Oh yeah, I sure got your pot 'o gold.


You also didn�t do a very good job at simplifying what I said. honestly "im 13" doesnt cut it "im lazy" sounds more like it.

^^^ you actually said that, ok ok, so if i was lazt why would i try and help other people understand what you were saying? if i was being just a lazy fuck why would i bother? please answer me that question

They were un-related. You saying that you don't understand the words I'm using, and refusing to use an online dictionary (which only requires you to copy the word, paste it, and hit "search") is lazy. It's basically doing a half-assed job because you tried to simplify something without making sure you knew exactly what you were trying to simplify.

Wow kid am I actually reading the shit you write?!



^^^ you actually said that, ok ok, so if i was lazt why would i try and help other people understand what you were saying? if i was being just a lazy fuck why would i bother? please answer me that question

Listen kid. You posted in this thread 6 times. Count. They teach you that when you are 13.

Out of those 6, 5 were useless rants against RB and just plain useless comments. If you want I can show them to you.

And you aren't helping anyone understand jack shit. It is obvious that no one has any complaints to what RB has said or they would have come out and say it. It seems that you are the only person who seems to have a problem with this.

If you believe that RB should


KEEP YOUR STUPID, UNNECASARY COMMENTS TO YOURSELF!!! NO ONE LIKE YOU!! ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME FOR YOU TO POST, GO AWAY, unless you have something constructive to say

, then I can show you why his comments where not useless at all.


The original problme was this


I don't want everyone to hate Sephy. It was really not his fault. He was manipulated by Hojo. He didn't even know. Poor Sephy...

What do you guys think about this? That was the question.

Here were the responses:

Yes as long as he has a revival object good enough to undo what hes done


I agree, it's Hojo's fault, not Sephy. He could have been a normal kid, but he wasn't. And Sephy isn't the only one's like Hojo messed up.

Then he proceeded to say who Hojo messed up. A point irrelevant to the topic.

So RB's comment was perfectly feasible. Kid, go suck on a lollipop or something and try to figure out what "mugging someone" is before you jusmp out and say it. It makes you look really...really...dumb.

Ok, all you guys made your point, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what I'm saying is that Hojo influenced Sephy greatly. Sephy could have been a whole other person if he wasn't treated this way. But it's true that he WAS able to choose. However, he was influenced by Hojo, and you cannot deny that. Sephy was raised to beleieve what he believed, just as all of us were raised to talk the way we talk, or eat the way we eat, because it's our parents who taught us that, just like Hojo taught Sephiroth. Hojo sent his son to fight in the Wutai war, and Sephy did so since he believed it was right, because his father told him that. If Sephy knew it was wrong, he may not have done it(however, he could still have chosen to do it anyway, since he would be given a choice if his father had allowed him to choose). Do you call that free will - being commanded around without being given any other option. That's not what I would call free will. Sephy wasn't given an option - he was told what to do.

Based on my own life experiences, I can say that you're still completely wrong. My beliefs are fundamentally different from the ones my parents attempted to instill in me. My eating habits are completely different.

Everyone makes their own choices.

Like Prak basically said, there's more to it than just being commanded to do something. If you think there is such a thing as free will, then he had the choice not to go. If you think that he had no choice, then you have to decide with determinism, which would negate all responsibility.

i really dont give 2 fucks what you think, i just scammed youe text not paying much attention to what was said, but i have had people backing me up on this, i will fight for what i belive in and i think a comment such as

I find it sad that this thread will never be the philosophical debate that it has the potential to become.

very sarcastic and un-neccesery, so do not lecture me on something i will not change my mind on, so you can turn around and say that the comment "I find it sad that this thread will never be the philosophical debate that it has the potential to become." usefull? you belive that that comment was the highlight of this thread?

In other words, you're an aggressive little punk who can't tolerate losing, so instead of responding to someone's points, you go into personal attacks. Good job, brat.

even though through that whole message i was basicly, and i qoute "cunted" off, it wasnt for you anyways, it was for rm's bum chum who sticks up for him

Did it become a deep philosophical debate? No? Didn't think so. Guess that means my original comment was right on the money.

your original pointless sarcastic unnececery childish babylike unhelpfull meaningless "ive got a lot of time on my hands" type comment, was dead accurate yes!

your original pointless sarcastic unnececery childish babylike unhelpfull meaningless "ive got a lot of time on my hands" type comment, was dead accurate yes!

Well, if my observation was correct, then how could it have been pointless, unnecessary, childish, unhelpful, or meaningless? It could have been sarcastic, but it really wasn�t. I sincerely do not think that this thread will ever reach the potential it has, despite efforts to lead it in that direction. I think you just like to spew random insults. On that same note, I sincerely hope you�re using a joke account, otherwise I pity you. Though, my reason for hoping your account is a joke is a little selfish. After all, if you�re not acting like this on purpose to try and get a laugh it just means you�re one sad individual.

So, if you�re on a joke account then good job! If not, grow up, brat.

Iloveaeris. I have something very enlightning to say to you. Stop talking. It makes you look unintelligent. You can keep fighting for things that you believe in but no one supports you, and all your posts are bullshit. There is a difference between fighting for what you believe in and fighting for what is right. THe latter is more important. I think your comments are much worser than RB's first sarcastic one. RB and Prak provided more points than you. Alright? SO why don't you drop it and lets all get back to topic. And before you call me a bum chum again, maybe you should learn how to read instead of being a jackass kid with no life? Maybe not, but I don't know what got into 13 year olds now awadays. I think they all have a penis in their asses.

Anyway, back on topic, Sephiroth was probably hit with a lot of shock when he found out the truth. This happens multiple times in other Final Fantasies so it is a recurring theme(such as Zidane in FF9). But Zidane and most characters who go through this had friends to help them but Sephiroth was all alone in his discovery. That discovery probably led to his insanity and therefore, his actions were not entirely Hojo's fault.

Based on my own life experiences, I can say that you're still completely wrong. My beliefs are fundamentally different from the ones my parents attempted to instill in me. My eating habits are completely different.

Everyone makes their own choices.

Well, yes, this is true, my eating habits are nothing alike to what my parents taught me (I just hate green sallad), but this is based on your own life experiences. However, other people can be comanded, and not ever'y child's eating habits are totaly different from their parents'. Some children eat the same things the same way. Some people can be influenced, I guess Sephy was one of those peole, sadly.

Dragoncurry is also right, Sephy suffered from a shock. But this shock was again alone Hojo's fault because he didn't tell his son the truth. So Hojo is not totally innocent in this, although it is also not TOTALLY his fault, but it's partialy his fault.

sephy aint bad, i can honestly say if i was in his position i would of gone nuts too, its very hard to cope with finding out you were a genetic experament and no one really cares about you and you were only made to lead a company to some place were they could just use all the energy from. i dont think anyone on earth has gone through this yet though, i hope no one does ever

sephy aint bad, i can honestly say if i was in his position i would of gone nuts too, its very hard to cope with finding out you were a genetic experament and no one really cares about you and you were only made to lead a company to some place were they could just use all the energy from. i dont think anyone on earth has gone through this yet though, i hope no one does ever

Exactly my point, people shoud go through all that Sephy went through, and only then will they see which choices they would make later on. You first must be in such a position and I guess it was very hard for Sephy. But as I said, he was practicaly manipulated, which was also Hojo's plan.

I think Sephiroth lost control. I don't think he was fully in control of his actions. I also do not believe that Sephiroth going mad was Hojo's plan either. Although Hojo seems to be the center of all of the problems, it was Sephiroth's inability to cope with his problems (since he had no one or nothing to lean on) is what drove him to evil.

Well, yeah, I agree with most of you. I know that Sephy did a lot of things he shouldn't have done, but he was manipulated, and I think everyone will agree that it's not his fault. I don't hate the guy.

Unseen, I know I would hate someone who killed my entire family, but if I was to find out that that someone was treated the way Sephy was treated (or ina simillar way), I think I would show some understanding because you can't blame him for what has been done to him. Of course I couldn't forgive him, but I would definetly show some understanding. This may sound strange, but that's the way I am.
Your talking like that bcos uve never experienced sumthin like that if they kill ur parents then u know dat wat ur saying is wrong ur using compassion to judge sephy according to the game, i know that if they kill my parents (which will never happen), i will track down the bastard dat did it and kill him as for seph i think obsession and disbelief led him to do stupid things like killing aeris.

you couldnt forgive them? haha, think about what your saying, you would be killing that person straight away, but if you caught them in the act of it all, you didnt have malice aforthought, and you thought your life was indanger, plead self defence!

Your talking like that bcos uve never experienced sumthin like that if they kill ur parents then u know dat wat ur saying is wrong ur using compassion to judge sephy according to the game, i know that if they kill my parents (which will never happen), i will track down the bastard dat did it and kill him as for seph i think obsession and disbelief led him to do stupid things like killing aeris.

It's not true that I'm saying that just lke that. You see, I think I wouldn't kill the guy who killed my whole family. I would track him down and bring him to justice. But killing him would just prove that I myself am no better than him. And I would never allow my self to become a ruthless killer like him. After all, I don't have the right to take others' lives, no matter what. They will get their punishment, but no one deserves to be killed.

You could now say "But your parents also didn't deserve to be killed" - This is true, but people whi kill are definetly not sane, and they're wrong if they think killing is alright. Repaying the killer with the same kind of measure (killing) would be stupid, because even people like killers have loved ones who love them, and I would never allow my self to become a ruthless killer, yet alone cause pain to his loved ones as he did with me. I am NO KILLER. I can show compassion, and that is not a weakness.

As for Sephy, I already said that he did make his own choices, but he was still partially manipulated, no one can deny that.

Your talking like that bcos uve never experienced sumthin like that if they kill ur parents then u know dat wat ur saying is wrong ur using compassion to judge sephy according to the game, i know that if they kill my parents (which will never happen), i will track down the bastard dat did it and kill him as for seph i think obsession and disbelief led him to do stupid things like killing aeris.

If you feel that the people here aren't worth typing properly for, then you shouldn't be posting here at all. This is not a damn AOL chat room. Grammar is appreciated.

prak please understand some of us do not have the best spelling, its easyer for some people to type like that, it all depends on the people, i personaly get a lot fo speelings wrong bcuase i type to quickly and dont really think about the letters im typing. just try and understand that some people find it easyer to type in diffrant ways

Please don't defend the indefensible. You can tell that he's perfectly capable of typing properly because he doesn't always misspell certain words. As I said before, if we're not worth the extra effort of typing "that" instead of "dat," then he should leave. It's a matter of respect for the people who read his garbage.

Well as I see it the following needs to be looked at.
1. Seph was genetically experimented on ( infusion of JENOVA's Cells)
2. iirc, JENOVA was an alien life form, who knows what sort of strength it has ( both mentally and Physically)
3. Seph finds out ( the hard way) that he is an experiment, and that leads him to believe that his ancestors were betrayed by our ancestors
4. Hojo never seemed to care for human life, therefore it is possible, not definate, to deduce that Sephs upbringing would have been more like a series of scientifc experimanets than the play and fun of a normal child

now I expect that someone will be nice to point out that Cloud was also infused with JENOVA's cells, but ( and this is one of Praks criticisms of FF7) We never really know to what extent, for all we know Cloud may have had only a fraction of the amount that Seph had, thats why JENOVA's control wasn't as great.

Sephy was still an unborn child when he was infused with Jenova cell. It is possible that, as Sephy became older and stronger, the Jenova cells also got stronger with his growing. If Sephy was really infused with the same amount of cells, that would have led to his death, since he was unborn. Therefor I think that Cloud received more infusions of Jenova cells than Sephy (since he was older and much stronger, and able to sustain great amounts of Jenova cells, unlike Sephy, who was still unborn at the time he received the Jenova cells)

Hmm, that is of course assuming that JENOVA's cells kill, maybe both had a set amount infused, and don't forget, Hojo, being a scientist will want to alter the conditions of each experiment slightly, so my guess would be that Zack would have recived more than the baby Seph, Where as Cloud may have recived the same or less, Zack being a Soldier 1st Class and Cloud only being a Shinra Guard. But again this is all conjecture, none of it can really be proved

Well definetly yes. I think Zack received a graeter amount of cells, and Cloud less, because if Cloud had received the same amount of cells, that would have probably killed him. And as you said, Zack was SOLDIER 1st class.

You're probably right, none of this can be proved, but I think it's logical that Zack received the greatest amount of Jenova cells and Cloud a little less, and in the end, the unborn baby Sephy the least amount of cells. This can't be proved, but as I said already, it's pretty logical.

I personally think that it was not Hojo that raised Sephiroth (at least not until he was ten or around there) but Dr. Gast. Though Dr. Gast was not an all-around evil guy, he made a lot of mistakes. We don't know when it was that he found out that Jenova was not an Ancient. It was probably the same time he met Ifalna, but we don't when that was either. It was at this time that he abandoned Sephiroth (presumably to the care of Hojo) and ran off with Ifalna.

Sephiroth was part of an expensive project, and it is doubtful that they even let Hojo near him during his childhood, since he was so "inexperienced," as people called him. It was DR. GAST'S Jenova Project, not Hojo's.

Sephiroth was probably put into SOLDIER training around the age of twelve or so. If this is true, then he wouldn't have known Hojo for more than a couple of years. Perhaps Hojo wasn't allowed to tell the truth. Or if you believe the "Hojo's early injection" theory (saying that Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells before Sephiroth's birth or during his childhood) Hojo might have been instructed by Jenova herself.

When the time was ripe, Sephiroth would be sent unwittingly to the very place where Jenova was, and where there were books planted by either Hojo or Gast saying that Sephiroth was artificially "produced."

I think Sephiroth, once he had gotten close enough to Jenova, she (or it, if you prefer) was able to take control of him and that is what drove him insane. It could control Cloud (like when he almost killed Aeris), and he was infused with Jenova cells when an adult. Imagine Sephiroth, who bathed in aminotic fluid filled with Jenova cells, being under Its control. Once taking control, It could make him do whatever she wanted. And then his madness and therefore lust for power went so far that he was able to gain strength and power to a further extent than Jenova's, like a pawn moving to the eighth square and becoming a queen, so to speak. That's probably something that Jenova did not expect.

Sorry if you're offended at my defending Hojo, but he's one of my favorite characters.

SSSSEEEEPPPPHHHHYYYY RRRROOOOOCCCCKKKKSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

I think he rocks too. Poor guy. What would have happened if he had known the truth, I wonder? Would the Planet have been a better place? Why am I asking all of these rhetorical questions?

Sephy was not under Jenova's control. You can see that by his behaviour. Sephy grew up with Jenova cells in him, and he was probabyl able to control these cells, besides, Sephy's body was in the crater all the time, and the one you see in the game is just a projection of his body. He wasn't controled by Jenova. Sephy was to strong to be controled. Unlike Cloud. Besides, Sephy was SOLDIER 1st class. He was strong. But I guess we'll never know. There are a lot of things that are unclear.

But as I already said, It was partially Hojo's fault. Besides, I wasn't talking about Hojo's influence on Sephy. If Hojo didn't infect Sephy with Jenova cells, Sephy would have been normal. But he did that to his own child and destroyed his life. So it is his fault. Sephy life was controled, manipulated partially.