You are all reading into it far too much - just like the matrix, it is a simple set of stories with ambiguous elements to draw people into arduous debates and discussions over the most ridiculously petty elements, for example, who really loved who, who was who's father, and how people connected up when the storyline just didn't say it.

Face it guys.

FF is about a deep as a puddle of my wee-wee. The storyline's ambiguous elements were either deliberately to make you discuss, or just lazily written.

I realise this may be hard to come to terms with.

That's exactly why I'm posting it.

It's about time someone said it.

I've thought along the lines of this for a while myself. Final Fantasy is just a series that was actually an accident. If it wasn't for FFI being such a huge success when it was released, all these FF games would be non-existent as well. They are just games. There is a part of me that wishes FFI did bomb, because then we wouldn't have a huge populus of FFVII nuts here.

But still, Final Fantasy is a regular series, just like the rest of them out there.

Originally posted by mrmonkeyman
You are all reading into it far too much - just like the matrix, it is a simple set of stories with ambiguous elements to draw people into arduous debates and discussions over the most ridiculously petty elements, for example, who really loved who, who was who's father, and how people connected up when the storyline just didn't say it.

Once again, same people. Read my argument in the ff7 board if you have to.

By the way, as far as the Matrix goes, it actually did have religious elements in it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. The brothers actually tried to put them in there, if to get more money if nothing else. Not to say that the second and third were good, they just did have religious elements. As for final fantasy, I actually agree with you here, the stuff here can get pretty pointless, but hey, you don't have to read it. People enjoy it. Hell, I enjoy some of the petty threads when Im bored. Simply put, if people enjoy it, why stop them? They dont need you on there backs telling them to stop enjoying the simple things. If you're smarter then us and you know you don't enjoy that, more power to you, don't do it. But don't yell at us, life isn't about being better then other people, it's about having fun. So unless you really do get off by imagining other people are all below you, please stop being such an elitest.

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
It's about time someone said it.

Ditto.

Thank you.

I agree with mrmonkeymen, im fed up with people coming in the chat room, pretending they have a degree in english literature, and talking about some deeper meaning thats based around final fantasy..

Its not as if the game is "Much ado about nothing" By William Shakespeare..At least, this play has a deep and hidden meaning, Final fantasy on the other hand, Does not.

Its a game, you play it, the information you need is already given to you during play, it asks nothing of deep research to back its facts up, nor does it ask players to ponder on "Love triangles" or the history of "Shinra corporation"

Yes you may discuss weapons, characters or talk with friends about how good the game is in your opinion, but please, stop pretending it has more to offer than whats there already.

Oh, and to "Jenova Filled Puppet" The only religious element contained in the matrix, is the Nebakeneza ship..which has light reference to any thing people call "Religion"

So since Ryu can throw fireballs... does this mean he's Jesus?

By the way, as far as the Matrix goes, it actually did have religious elements in it
Yes, I realise that, but you also must realise I didn't say the matrix had no religious elements. FAUX. NIL POIT.


please stop being such an elitest.
Haha, several hundred roffles to the kilometer. You telling me that only makes me want to continue.

IS RYU JESUS?! ;_;

Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
It's about time someone said it.

You're all slow, I already said this ages ago in that "All the same universe" thread someone had going a while back.


Originally posted by TCK: Thanks for making a thread about it!

Originally posted by MogKnight
IS RYU JESUS?! ;_; YES.

And nobody's paid attention to you before Odin, why start now!?

The Matrix is supposed to have deeper themes, it's just ham-fisted and shit.

if this board has rep points, I would give mmm 50 billion right now. if rep points weren't queer.

I CONCUR.

Originally posted by mrmonkeyman
You are all reading into it far too much - just like the matrix, it is a simple set of stories with ambiguous elements to draw people into arduous debates and discussions over the most ridiculously petty elements, for example, who really loved who, who was who's father, and how people connected up when the storyline just didn't say it.

Face it guys.

FF is about a deep as a puddle of my wee-wee. The storyline's ambiguous elements were either deliberately to make you discuss, or just lazily written.

I realise this may be hard to come to terms with.

That's exactly why I'm posting it.

Ah, actually it does. People don't pay writters simply to sit on their ass. Their idea such as subtly, symbolism, that people would not rather think of. And just becuase one dares to explore these things, does not mean they have any degree. And The Matrix has plenty of religious references, isn't the blasted ship named after something directly from the bible?

naming a random ship after the king of Chaldea doesn't exactly make it an instant form of art.

Spoilers, but it's for the Matrix sequals so no one really cares.

Someones probably gonna yell at us for getting off topic but oh well, herre goes. Yes, the ship was named after someone from the bible. Zion was the name of the promised land in some other religion. Neo was of course supposed to represent Jesus, like it or not, that's how it was written. The idea is that he died for humanity. Actually, if you look at the end in the last scene you see him he's spread out to form a cross. That isn't blaetient at all. It's actually a mix of Religious symbyology, mostly just so the fans that weren't scared away by how bad it was would make millions of websites explaining it I'm guessing. There was probably more, but I just don't care enough to go find it. Oh well, no great loss to anyone. If you want to see something secent with religious symbiology, go see Evangelion.

Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet
Neo was of course supposed to represent Jesus, like it or not, that's how it was written.

Erm..No

Neo was supposed to represent a guy who got caught up in the "Real World", And I dont see anywhere in the film saying "OMG ITS JESUS"

Edit: Oh and it wasnt supposed to represent jesus on the cross, thats just how he fell on the machine ;)

Originally posted by Alpott87


Erm..No

Neo was supposed to represent a guy who got caught up in the "Real World", And I dont see anywhere in the film saying "OMG ITS JESUS"

Edit: Oh and it wasnt supposed to represent jesus on the cross, thats just how he fell on the machine ;)

the christ symbolism was there. and it was intentional. that doesn't make it "deep" however. I thought it made it incredibly corny. =)

Originally posted by Gandalf


Ah, actually it does. People don't pay writters simply to sit on their ass. Their idea such as subtly, symbolism, that people would not rather think of. And just becuase one dares to explore these things, does not mean they have any degree. And The Matrix has plenty of religious references, isn't the blasted ship named after something directly from the bible?

No one said it was elevated to the level of 'art.' However, it does not mean it does not have meaning to it, as Jenova Filled Pilot correctly points out.

And I really believe the whole "you look into" as a cop out for an argument. There are legitatment things.

Such as Final Fantasy VII seemed lightly on environmental issues because of these "Mako reactors" that use resources the planet needs, and the abandonment of religion and the replacement of science. Final Fantasy X does the opposite and reveals how religion can be false and used as a crutch. For starters.

Other games like Silent Hill 2 are about the inner agonies and guilt that haunt people. Or Chrono Cross that speculates the neccesity of balance, the idea of survival of the fittest subtly, or the dream of "what could have been."

Even simply stories like Sleeping Beauty have some underlying theme, even if not as unique or well defined. People seem to forget things might have alterior meanings simply because we like to take things at face value.

Why not use facts or logic and actual refuting rather than "Its not Spielberg or anything, it can't have any deeper meaning." Especially when people complain that games are becoming far too much like interactive movies.

So, if I find a message in a Final Fantasy game, say, I notice that FF9 is dealing with questions of life and death and memory, and if, having noticed that, I start pondering about these things, about what will happen once I die, will I really be gone or will I live on through people's memories...

... would this make me dumb, now?

Alpott said FF wasn't Much Ado About Nothing, after all.
Now... of course no one will deny Shakespeare the status of a great writer who produced stuff worth writing essays about.
No one did that to Final Fantasy. Yet, maybe, who knows. But does that mean that anyone who does find things to think about, is a total idiot?

Frankly, I think you overreact. If a game without meaning, play it, throw it in a corner and forget it, is all you see in those games, okay. But accept that there are people who actually try to find meanings, messages, themes, parallels to mythology and what not, in EVERYTHING, be it in movies, be it in drawings, in comics or in books.

It's fun for some poeple, you know?

Though I think, if you really believe the makers of these games have really thought nothing at all when they were writing the stories, you are a sad person.
And I'm kind of disppointed by M� for making this thread. ._.

Originally posted by Gandalf


Ah, actually it does. People don't pay writters simply to sit on their ass. Their idea such as subtly, symbolism, that people would not rather think of. And just becuase one dares to explore these things, does not mean they have any degree. And The Matrix has plenty of religious references, isn't the blasted ship named after something directly from the bible?
Look.
If you were paid money to write a story for a game, and you really couldn't be fucked to write all this backstory, but you KNEW you could get away by subtle hints...

Well, yeah. You see what i'm talking about.

It's pop philosophy, nothing else.

But why complain about it? I mean, isnt it human nature in its self to find a deeper meaning to the most trivial things? If you feel like only see thing the surface of things then do so, but most people want to find an answer, or just want to ponder and the such.

in my opinion, final fantasy can have its moments where you can start thinking about things. But I feel that most of the FF's relate to the real world instead of adding enlightment to it. Especiall FFX with the use of machinas (as i would relate to computers and such).

I feel it cant be helped to speculate about games, movies etc.

Originally posted by mrmonkeyman
It's pop philosophy, nothing else.

I could see as that, but even pop philosophy has some value ot it. Even subtle hints do have some basis....I was playing Chrono Cross for example and there was subtlies to the stories of characters by certain moods they take along with the elementral innate providing some hints. Serge is a pure spirit, its only natural to represent him with a white innate. And other characters.

And, there are a number of sidequests of stories. You can explore what really happened to Glenn or Dario early on before they touch on it slightly in Disc 2.

He's not saying that there's no messages or symbolism in these things.

He's saying that people read into this stuff too much.

And he's right.

Refer to topic title:

"FF does not have any religious or deep meaning."

Key words 'does not have any"

I don't buy this reading too deep crap. After starting a film class, there are a million things directors do just to get exactly right, as do screen writters and probably videogame directors do as well.

Originally posted by Gandalf
Refer to topic title:

"FF does not have any religious or deep meaning."

Key words 'does not have any"

I don't buy this reading too deep crap. After starting a film class, there are a million things directors do just to get exactly right, as do screen writters and probably videogame directors do as well.

If you read his actual post though, he doesn't say that.

I know that there's a lot of work that goes into writing screenplays and the like. I've been writing them myself since I was a kid.

But people do read too deeply into some stuff. With movies and with videogames.

I mean, just Donnie Darko as an example, since it tends to be over-analyzed on the internet. That movie is chock full of symbolism, but people still put significance on things they shouldn't.

Things like "the way Cho Chan is sitting in the background on this one scene, one of her feet are in a shadow THIS REPRESENTS HOW HER CHARACTER IS BEING HEALD DOWN BY TEH SHADOWS". Just pure silliness.

Personally, I think that sort of thing gets in the way of a person appreciating the movie. It's really fun figuring out the deeper meanings in a movie that you didn't pick up on the first few times through, but if all you do is look for symbolism in every little inch of the film, how are you supposed to enjoy it? And moronic things like the one I mention kind of undermine the real symbolism that the writer and director purposely put in the movie.

Anyways, I went off on a rant when I didn't mean to at all. I'm sorry. I'll stop myself now. At any rate, I think with both basically agree here, even though we're both kind of coming at it from two different directions.

Thats the very stuff I am learning about though.

Lighting can be used for such effect. In the Godfather, light is positioned on one person, a little on another, and remains dark for another. The outcome is later true as one person comes out the winner, the other ok, the other not so good. I don't know what charcters they are...all I know is the picture was one of a fire place and a couple holding hands.

Or how a camera can have someone towards the edge of a frame so that they seem close to the edge, almost insignificant or clustered. While purposely putting huge space between people can suggest an emotional distance.

Originally posted by Gandalf
Thats the very stuff I am learning about though.

Lighting can be used for such effect. In the Godfather, light is positioned on one person, a little on another, and remains dark for another. The outcome is later true as one person comes out the winner, the other ok, the other not so good. I don't know what charcters they are...all I know is the picture was one of a fire place and a couple holding hands.

Or how a camera can have someone towards the edge of a frame so that they seem close to the edge, almost insignificant or clustered. While purposely putting huge space between people can suggest an emotional distance.

Oh, I agree that lighting and cinematography are extremely important to a film. I know you don't especially care for PT Anderson's movies, but he really does an amazing job with the both of those.

There's a scene in Boogie Nights in which Heather Grahm's character winds up having sex with the guy who was pretty much responsible for her dropping out of high school, and he shoots it at such an angle that the viewer winds up focusing only on her face. It changes the feeling of the entire scene.

What I gave was just a random example- there's all sorts of stupid stuff like that going around on movie forums on the internet. But at any rate, if say, one character happened to be sitting in shadow while all the others were in light, it could very well mean something.

But if a character's toe happens to be near a shadow, it probably has more to do with the way the clouds were moving at the time of the shoot then anything deep.

I don't think that it was mmm was suggesting though....I think he meant to refute the very things I mentioned that are common in well-crafted films or such in videogames.

Originally posted by Gandalf
I don't buy this reading too deep crap. After starting a film class, there are a million things directors do just to get exactly right, as do screen writters and probably videogame directors do as well.

Oh well you started a basic film class, that must make you an expert. I guess we are all wrong, due to the fact none of us have taken a film class. Oh wait, that's right, I have... what was it called... Oh, that's right, "Faith in Film". The fact is that often times people do read too deep. In the case of FF7, just as an example, people often times try to read far too deep into it merely because of the ending. It isn't "deep" to NOT WRITE AN ENDING, it is weak writing.

Note: I am not saying that by taking one class I am an expert and do not wish to imply that by taking such a class I suddenly know more about the subject than anyone else, unlike some people.

I never said I was an expert, simply elaborating if people didn't know these things.

And to leave something open like your suggestion, isn't bad writting. A great short story for example, The Lady or the Tiger does that same thing.

How about this, then?

Final Fantasy script writers are bastardizing common symbolism and references to other popular entertainment "products" in order to make up for their lack of originality. Like all the Star Wars references and the ilk.

P.S. - Legend of Legaia had more symbolism and real-world references than any of the Final Fantasy games--as per the actual script writers themselves. Plus, they were pretty obvious.

How is that?

I don't see them using anything common. I haven't seen star wars, so I cannot say for sure whether FF borrowed anything or not. Even if they share it, to sa they stole it or bastardize it for lack of originality is a huge leap.

Not really, considering how that in staff interviews with the script writers and producers--when asked about the Star Wars references--they have all said without fail that they were avid fans of Star Wars and try to work at least two or three references to those movies into each of their games.

Well a reference is far different from copying. If it was as obvious as you said, it would suggest postmodernism, or paying tribute to it so to speak.

Originally posted by Gandalf
I never said I was an expert, simply elaborating if people didn't know these things.

And to leave something open like your suggestion, isn't bad writting. A great short story for example, The Lady or the Tiger does that same thing.

You can't apply generalizations like that to entertainment type stuff.

Just because open endings work well in some situations doesn't mean that every open ending is well written.

Your open ending has to fit whatever you were writing it for.

Its not a generalization, just stating that leaving an opening like that is not neccessarily bad writting. And for FF7, it does work.

Notice how very early on Bugenhagen asks "I wonder if us human are good or bad for the planet" so the game doesn't show humans after the events.

Well, according to that, AC would totally contradict the story for FF7, seeing as how people are still milling around in it.

Not the story, but the possible interpretation of the ending. That is true.

However, notice FF7:AC may not have been planned by the original makers. Much like The Matrix Reloaded was not originally intended until after it made huge sums of money.

Such is the recent union of Square Enix to continue the stories of the previous FF games rather than make new stories.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time is looking damn good right now...

Originally posted by Odin
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time is looking damn good right now...

I'm not sure if you posted in the wrong topic or a joke....

Look at your post immediately before I posted that, Gandalf. My post should make sense, and no, it's not a joke.

I still don't get it....I've never played Star Ocean so maybe thats part of it.

Considering how many replies my thread about Radiata Stories got... do people even want new stories? :P

Seriously, I would like to comment on the thing about Star Wars references and the like. I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Let's take Biggs and Wedge. They are a Star Wars reference, but it's only their names. They could as well be named Tim and Tom, there wouldn't be much of a difference.
I don't think Square Enix is making Star Wars references the main part of their stories... unless you count FFVI's "Rebels VS Imperium" situation in the beginning. (This I think is more like a clich�...)
What's wrong with placing a hint at some movie, book, etc, that you really like? ;)

Originally posted by Tokiko
Considering how many replies my thread about Radiata Stories got... do people even want new stories? :P

Seriously, I would like to comment on the thing about Star Wars references and the like. I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Let's take Biggs and Wedge. They are a Star Wars reference, but it's only their names. They could as well be named Tim and Tom, there wouldn't be much of a difference.
I don't think Square Enix is making Star Wars references the main part of their stories... unless you count FFVI's "Rebels VS Imperium" situation in the beginning. (This I think is more like a clich�...)
What's wrong with placing a hint at some movie, book, etc, that you really like? ;)

There is nothing with that. Like what I said earlier, its known as post-modernism. Lots of movies do it. Moulin Rouge and Kill Bill are such examples. They purposely pay tribute to movies that helped inspired them. Moulin Rouge to the 'artistic movement' in the 60s and shakespeare, along with asian cinema for Kill Bill.

Originally posted by Gandalf
I still don't get it....I've never played Star Ocean so maybe thats part of it.

You have no right to comment on intricate storylines until you have played Star Ocean: The Second Story and have discovered all 80 different endings!

So missing one game somehow made every point not valid....ok, and...

Whoa, holy shit?! Did you say 80?!

That's right, though the differences in most of them are very subtle, and depend on how you treat the people you interact with throughout the game.