I have a feeling I might be stirring the hornet's nest, but this is a question I've been wanting to ask for quite some time now and it seems that I've finally found a place where I might get an educated answer and/or debate.

A little preface before I ask my question:
I've been listening to film scores since I was a little kid. Almost too young to remember. It started with some Walt Disney records, then progressed to actual orchestral only scores shortly thereafter. I remember getting the Star Wars double record album for Christmas way back in '77 and to this day it's possibly one of the greatest presents I ever got. All this to say I've been a film score enthusiast my entire life. My collection is gargantuan and I could have purchased a nice house with all the money I've spent on film music over the years (not that I'm proud of that). I am not, however, a musician. I was an enthusiastic student during music classes in grade school and took piano lessons for awhile, but decided that I needed to focus my creative efforts on cartooning and illustration since that's what I do for a living. So while I have a great appreciation for music and a rudimentary understanding of its principles, I do not understand the more complex theories behind composition.

A little more preface:
I have been a fan of Hans Zimmer ever since I first discovered his work, back around 1990. Not all of his scores have been to my tastes, but I knew, once I heard the score for Backdraft, that this guy was going to be big. His career has done nothing but rise between then and now. He's been at the top of the composer list for a while now and yet his stock continues to rise, as if being on top isn't high enough. I personally have been happy to see him scoring big A list projects; I think he has risen to the occasion every time.

In my search for rare and/or bootleg scores over the past decade or so I've come across forums and threads where people seem to have a high level of distain for his music. I've seen people speak about the technical weaknesses of his music, or how he failed to take advantage of this structure or that theory.

So now, the question:
Why does Hans receive such hatred from film composition students and/or other musical professionals? I know not everyone in the film music industry dislikes his music, but I have seen proof that there are plenty who do. Without getting overly technical on me, or at least explaining the technical issues in layman's terms, I'd like to hear some of the reasons why this criticism gets aimed at him so sharply.

I know that he's kind of created a composer factory. He gets lots of young guys full of potential around him. They help, they get experience, and then eventually go out on their own, steeped in Hans's way of creating music. Is that part of what people don't like? Or is it just his music?

Also - and this is where it gets sticky in my opinion - knowing that all art is subjective, does all that technical stuff really matter? As an illustrator and cartoonist, I often judge other artists's work more harshly than I should. I look at all the technical details and find the faults. Some of these artists, however, are very successful. While they may lack some of the technical skills that I admire, their work strikes a chord with the zeitgeist, and in the end, who's to say that their art is any worse than someone who's technically better? If it evokes a feeling that people connect with, isn't that confirmation enough of their work's value? Doesn't that possibly carry as much weight as any technical analysis? And isn't there value in breaking the rules sometimes? Isn't instinct just as valid, just as legitimate, as technical skill?

When it comes to drawing I often find myself being the overly critical one, but take away the advanced knowledge of the subject matter, which is what happens when I listen to a movie score, and I find myself in the other camp, shaking my head at the people criticising Hans's work. I may not know the technical strengths and weaknesses, but when I listen to Hans's score for Sherlock Holmes, it makes me giddy with happiness. It strikes a chord in me on a deep level. Same with As Good As It Gets, or Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, Matchstick Men, Gladiator, The Simpsons movie, or even Man of Steel.

Since I've recently discovered this amazing forum and gotten some scores I never dreamed I'd get a hold of, it's come to my attention that there are more than a few people here who work in the movie music industry, so I'm asking the people with deeper knowledge and insight than I for some enlightenment. Thanks in advance for reading this and offering up thoughts and/or opinions. I am truly and honestly interested in knowing more about this and want to hear multiple schools of though on the subject.

It's come to my attention that there are more than a few people here who work in the movie music industry, so I'm asking the people with deeper knowledge and insight than I for some enlightenment.

"Mike Verta, a brilliant composer with absolutely no career to speak of." -Hans Zimmer

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZNqx3KjrIo#t=668 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZNqx3KjrIo#t=668) (11:10 ~ 20:21)

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZNqx3KjrIo#t=3115 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZNqx3KjrIo#t=3115) (51:50 ~ 1:00:15)

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZNqx3KjrIo#t=5540 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZNqx3KjrIo#t=5540) (1:32:19 ~ 1:34:37)

TANGOTREATS: �Whilst I entirely agree with Hans' statement (assuming it is a verbatim quotation) it is in no small part down to him (and his company, and its virtually complete overhaul of the film scoring system) that composers like Mike don't enjoy successful mainstream careers.�

MIKE VERTA: �Yes, it's verbatim. It's how he introduced me to his wife :) I like Hans a lot, actually, and he's been very cool and complimentary. Whatever one thinks of his music - and admittedly, we approach the art from very different directions (though have similar influences, actually!) - he's not a phony. He does exactly what he's comfortable and good at doing, and that has made him the current Alpha Dog of film scoring. 90% of ALL scores end up going through his compound, including no shortage of work you'd never believe would, which just quietly gets tended to behind the curtain. He presented me with two further truths: 1) The last thing the world needs is another Zimmer clone, so I should do what I do and 2) What I do isn't particularly in fashion right now. Hard to argue with that, but I decided long ago I would rather ride the bomb, Slim Pickens-style, than try to be something I wasn't. And so, let the sands fall and the pendulum swing.�

forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/204.html#post1475737 (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/204.html#post1475737)
forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/204.html#post1475744 (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/204.html#post1475744)

�When John Williams wrote Star Wars, that particular style of symphonic scoring was not in vogue - electronic and pop scores ruled the day. Neither in vogue was the tone of the film, it being a straight-ahead, optimistic good-guys-triumph-bad-guys kind of movie at a time when the theaters were dominated by gritty, "dark" films which reflected the overall sense of depression in the country. We were fresh from Vietnam, a corrupt and ousted president, an oil crisis; feelings were low, so the movies were The Towering Inferno, and The Poseidon Adventure and Aiport. A large part of the reason Star Wars was so huge was because people were so desperately ready to feel something else. I recall no less a person than Walter Cronkite commenting that people wore "May the Force Be With You" buttons as a sort of badge of optimism. They might as well have read, "Hope and Change." Does this sound familar?

Hans Zimmer has not destroyed film music. Young filmmakers with less training, experience, and context have seized upon the feelings of their audience and created films which utilize elements familiar to them - videogame graphics, and music with pop roots.

But also, part of the reason the "old school" music isn't in vogue today is because few composers of my generation can do it. They're not trained symphonically, and they don't seek to learn. Filmmakers have a funny way of using mainly what they have access to.

But like in the late 70's all the gritty "realism" and depression gives way under its own weight eventually. That's what 3D is all about: filmmakers trying to make movies fun again, despite the content. Gimmicks they know how to do; it's easier than actually making good movies. But that's not all filmmakers. I meet young talented directors all the time who love and understand the value of music which has as much storytelling sophistication as the script. And the pendulum swings. We still listen to symphonic music hundreds of years old because emotionally it's still relevant. Its staying power has been proven, so relax.

There is absolutely no question that today's symphonic scores are pale imitations of yesteryear's scores; that's true on the starkest musicological level; it's a fact. That they might be satisfying is proof that one can get used to hanging by one's thumbs. But let's not wish away satisfaction. If you like what you hear, it's a gift; enjoy it.

Remember, the only constant is change.�

forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/187.html#post1454365 (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/187.html#post1454365)

�Orchestration is exactly the same in a Zimmer score as in a Williams score, orchestra-compliment-wise. Last week they recorded Inception with the same symphonic palette one might use for Star Wars. While the orchestrational timbre itself might vary from composer to composer, the real difference in music is not orchestration, it's composition, and the difference there is depth and complexity of structure. Even Giacchino displays short motif-based writing, versus the long-form structural depth of "the greats." I doubt he'd have either the delusion or narcissism to believe otherwise - I certainly don't. Goldsmith, for example, was a master symphonist in his own right - he could sustain the development of a single subject for 20, 30, even 60 minutes without ever repeating what he's said, nor losing focus or interest. The first, best example I can think of in a film scoring context for this is his cue The Enterprise from Star Trek: The Motion Picture, a 6+ minute, unbroken orchestral suite. This one cue represents a level of skill which absolutely no up-and-comer possesses. When one does not have the ability to write concert music, one cannot write the concert-music-based filmscores which define virtually all the greatest scores in the last 100 years. Devoid of this ability, one is left with ostinato-as-subject, filler, and sound-design to complete individual cues, which together do not add up to the satisfying symphony-like structure of the scores we admire so much, keep so close to our hearts, and enter and stay in the lexicon.

They are still filling the Hollywood Bowl for concerts of Williams music written 40 years ago. But they're already ignoring the work produced today - it's not compelling.�

forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/198.html#post1471525 (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f92/big-orchestral-action-music-thread-57893/198.html#post1471525)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03bfjqv

EDIT: New link here:

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio3/r3docs/r3docs_20130923-1508a.mp3

BBC Radio 3 - Sunday Feature, Sound of Cinema: Composing for Hollywood (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03bfjqv)

Hey! A reply, hahaha. Thanks so much for this link! I'm listening to it right now.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

Somehow I completely missed this first reply, so thanks for these as well. I'll read through these quotes once I'm done listening to the radio program.

So the first half of the BBC radio program didn't have anything new to me, but the second half was fairly illuminating. The quotes from the other threads, especially the comments from Mike Verta, were pure gold, so thanks again for taking the time to point me in the right direction.