Lossless VS Lossey

I know I am probably behind the curve on this. Been working in the Middle East for the last 10 years, things here are kind of behind.

That being said, a couple of weeks ago, I was listening to some mp3 music on the iphone in the vehicle. I happen to have that day, an original CD of what I was listening to, and poped it in the player for comparison. I have been listening to lossy music for so long, I was awestruck at the difference in sound quality.

Did some digging and saw that Apple supports a lossless format now. So I have started re ripping all my FLACS to apple lossless, and the difference is night and day.

How about you guys, is it worth the time to go lossless on your device? (Taking into account memory considerations)

For me it was like listening again for the first time.

FLAC and ALAC are identical.
There should be no difference whatsoever.

If you don’t pay attention to your settings, you could inadvertently enable a volume normalization during the transcoding.
Which would make a difference.

The code for FLAC and ALAC are lossless because there’s no loss of quality during the transcoding from one format to another.

If you insist there’s a difference, it’s either a placebo affect all in your head.
Or you have no idea what to look for to show that you are doing something wrong.

Except FLAC is still under heavy development.
ALAC is open source but no one cares to maintain it.

I’m sorry, maybe I worded that wrong.

I meant the difference between MP3 320KBPS and any lossless format.

Everything on the iphone is mp3, and the lossless difference just struck me.

Just wondering if anyone had thoughts on if they cared to recode everything to lossless from the souce, or mp3 was sufficient for them.

I download everything in Flac for archiving,
then convert it to V0 Mp3 for listening because i don’t have
any Audio Equipment capable of making the Difference heard… 🙂

At The End of Thd Day…. Nothing, Its Just Severe OCD.

I have developed hyperacusis (sensitivity to sound specifically in the treble regions greater than 2000hz, which has caused me to be able to better hear high frequency sonics like Sines, and sounds that emanate a lot of high frequency noise like dishwashers, mechanical Hard drives, sizzling meat on a grill, but I’ve also developed a sensitivity to lower frequencies and to vibration of sound waves. However this also causes severe migraines because my hearing is too good for my brain to process or so the doctors and specialists say). Like if you stand right next to me while I’m at work and talk to me, I will be able to hear the ambient noise around us better than I can hear you unless you yell at me.

FLAC to hear with high end headphone + high end system / archive and lossy for my car/ dlna appliance or if I didn’t find in lossless but never under 320 or for rare stuffs unfindable in better bitrate.

I also convert all my lossless to lossy.

Also worth pointing out is that not all mp3 encoders are equal.

How about you guys, is it worth the time to go lossless on your device? (Taking into account memory considerations)

For me it was like listening again for the first time.

I’ll try to explain these plastic. Imagine that you able to buy any car in the world. And you choose any model of Ford Mustang Cobra. After each new drive you are fascinated by its possibilities. It’s great model BUT is still not ferrari enzo

Point is this, if you are satisfied with driving experience, It’s that mean you need to be around askin answer to this question: what new can offer ferrari?

Well if you listen music mainly from I-POD, lossless is not for you, but if you get good sound system my advice for mp3 archive CTRL + DEL!!!

Also worth pointing out is that not all mp3 encoders are equal.

Yep. Newer versions of mp3 encoders can preserve a lot more data to such an extent that I sometimes can’t tell the difference between flac and mp3. Nevertheless, I always go flac/alac if possible and then convert to high quality AAC or mp3 when transfering to my phone. I listen to my music with a 5.1 surround system I got from my parent’s garage, so most of the time I would be able to tell the difference.

If you don’t pay attention to your settings, you could inadvertently enable a volume normalization during the transcoding. Which would make a difference.

Did you know that 50 % qobuz or i-tunes digital lossless downloads is maded on this way USING NORMALIZE FILTERS.
Really i don’t know why people buy that shit if cd comming!!!

Clear, a good FLAC rip from the CD is the best way.

Interesting views, I was just curious as to what the main stream’s thoughts were. To paraphrase a movie line….. "They don’t let us out much" LOL

I think there is a psychologic part but I prefer to have a perfect rip to have an archive ( If I loose the cd etc) but regarding the hearing, between lossless / 320 it ‘s not an evidence to hear the difference, but who can the plus can the less, I have a lot of space disk so I hear in FLAC as I have hi end stuffs to hear.

I was just curious as to what the main stream’s thoughts were. To paraphrase a movie line….. "They don’t let us out much" LOL

Maybe this help you
With all his good possibilities I-Phone is still just a PHONE. Should be used for telephone and internet conversation.
Really man, this is 2016 WHO serious enjoying music on I-Phone?

Lol I agree.

Thats funny, you are correct, but due to the environment, thats about all we have.

Besides, my Mom wont let me buy an Android lol.

Kidding aside, I appreciate the responses, its always good to get other points of view.

For me, it’s plain FLAC just for preference, just what I like the most, having a lossless copy of the music how it’s in the CD. OCD, whatever, it’s just my prefernece and how I like it

However if the original source was lossy, or whatever I’m interested is only avaialble in lossy MP3, then I take it with no complains.. it’s what I wanted anyway. As long as the quality is listenable..

whatever I’m interested is only avaialble in lossy MP3, then I take it with no complains.. it’s what I wanted anyway. As long as the quality is listenable..

^THAT.

———- Post added at 04:56 PM ———- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ———-

I’ll try to explain these plastic. Imagine that you able to buy any car in the world. And you choose any model of Ford Mustang Cobra. After each new drive you are fascinated by its possibilities. It’s great model BUT is still not ferrari enzo
Point is this, if you are satisfied with driving experience, It’s that mean you need to be around askin answer to this question: what new can offer ferrari?
Well if you listen music mainly from I-POD, lossless is not for you, but if you get good sound system my advice for mp3 archive CTRL + DEL!!!
First off, it’s SHIFT+DEL.
Secondly, people sometimes buy one car because they can’t afford the other. They need to make sacrifices and choose wisely to still be able to do what they want to do in the most optimal conditions.

Maybe this help you
With all his good possibilities I-Phone is still just a PHONE. Should be used for telephone and internet conversation.
Really man, this is 2016 WHO serious enjoying music on I-Phone?
Again, same story. Most people who listen to music are content with an iPhone because they can’t afford a phone AND a great lossless player like a FiiO or something similar. The iPhone in this case isn’t so much the problem as the headphones you’re using to listen to your music. If you were to listen to your iPhone ALAC music using a Sennheiser HD203, the sound wouldn’t differ from MP3 that much, but if you were to listen using a Sennheiser HD650 (to stay with the same brand) you’d hear a whole new world of music open up.

Also, I’ve noticed that you tend to be very negative a lot, zvonko. If I remember correctly, that got you in trouble before. There’s no need for that. Obviously OP was just asking a question and he obviously doesn’t have the means for high-end audio equipment, otherwise he wouldn’t asking these questions.

First off, it’s SHIFT+DEL.

Yes of course it’s my mistake SHIFT + DEL

Secondly, people sometimes buy one car because they can’t afford the other.

If you want to look smart firstly read carefully my text Imagine that you able to buy any car in the world.
This is a hypothetical question and sentenze LIKE IF YOU CAN TO BUY THEM WHAT WILL BE YOUR CHOICE?

Most people who listen to music are content with an iPhone because they can’t afford a phone AND a great lossless player like a FiiO or something similar.

OP want to know difference between lossless & lossy. I try to explain: If OP use I-Phone to listen music it’s quite enough mp3 or m4a lossy. Anyway I-PHONE is not cheap and it is SHIT for music experience with headphones or without.

Also, I’ve noticed that you tend to be very negative a lot, zvonko..

My problems does not concern you. Sod Off

Z

^THAT.

———- Post added at 04:56 PM ———- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ———-

First off, it’s SHIFT+DEL.
Secondly, people sometimes buy one car because they can’t afford the other. They need to make sacrifices and choose wisely to still be able to do what they want to do in the most optimal conditions.

Again, same story. Most people who listen to music are content with an iPhone because they can’t afford a phone AND a great lossless player like a FiiO or something similar. The iPhone in this case isn’t so much the problem as the headphones you’re using to listen to your music. If you were to listen to your iPhone ALAC music using a Sennheiser HD203, the sound wouldn’t differ from MP3 that much, but if you were to listen using a Sennheiser HD650 (to stay with the same brand) you’d hear a whole new world of music open up.

Also, I’ve noticed that you tend to be very negative a lot, zvonko. If I remember correctly, that got you in trouble before. There’s no need for that. Obviously OP was just asking a question and he obviously doesn’t have the means for high-end audio equipment, otherwise he wouldn’t asking these questions.

I agree I use a Sennheiser HD800 + amplifier for lossless music but in my car even that I have an harman kardon system, I prefer to hear the six in line of my /// M car and so I use MP3.

The iPhone in this case isn’t so much the problem as the headphones you’re using to listen to your music. If you were to listen to your iPhone ALAC music using a Sennheiser HD203, the sound wouldn’t differ from MP3 that much, but if you were to listen using a Sennheiser HD650 (to stay with the same brand) you’d hear a whole new world of music open up.

Look at this price I-PHONE 6 + Sennheiser HD203 pro about 1000 bucks

http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone6

https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-650-Professional-Headphone/dp/B00018MSNI

For that money i can buy PRO amplifier or PRO Speakers or TECHNICS SL 1210 old timer.

I apologize to OP to move away from the point but some people must be aware of their ignorance before enter into any kind of controversy. This certainly does not apply to OP and his thread which certainly has its meaning

Z

I meant the difference between MP3 320KBPS and any lossless format.

It’s largely just placebo, in my opinion. Some people, like Mononoki, think they can really tell the difference, but if you’re comparing 320k MP3 and lossless, there’s no comparison. It sounds the same to human ears.

I download everything in Flac for archiving,
then convert it to V0 Mp3 for listening because i don’t have
any Audio Equipment capable of making the Difference heard… 🙂

Wait, so if you have the lossless on your hard drive, why not listen to that? Why increase the amount of space being taken up by creating a lossy copy?
Or do you keep things on externals?

At The End of Thd Day…. Nothing, Its Just Severe OCD.

I agree. It’s all based around the placebo effect, unless your MP3 transcoder sucks.

I have developed hyperacusis

That’s not really something to brag about… from what I’ve heard lots of people with hyperacusis see it as a curse and not a special mutant X-Men power.
Some people are just more sensitive to sounds than others. I imagine lots of people just have shitty hearing because they blare pop music at max volume directly into their eardrums.
Has a doctor actually told you you have hyperacusis?

Lossless doesn’t improve a lousy recording and/or mastering, or a deteriorated or mono source. It’s only advantageous in the preservation of above average recordings of composer’s music you admire and cherish. Moreover, in the main, soundtracks aren’t engineered for the audiophile market, so lossless is only as value added as the quality of the recording itself.

I mean, personally, I couldn’t give a fuck if Brian Tyler’s music is only available in 128, another 400kbps isn’t going to improve on the lack of creativity or compensate for the mutilating compression.

Lossless doesn’t improve a lousy recording and/or mastering, or a deteriorated or mono source

Let’s see if I understand you correctly for you people in the music studios doing useless job
trying to make remaster some score in stereo from mono mastertapes?

I can agree with you partially: if i have cd from mono source is totally irrelevant whether I will rip & transcode to lossy or lossless because human ear can’t tell the difference. But for stereo cd’s take my word, with good sound system You can hear the difference not only between lossless and lossy but between lossy bitrate. Because that AAC going to 512 not 320 Kbps.

Z

Lossless doesn’t improve a lousy recording and/or mastering, or a deteriorated or mono source. It’s only advantageous in the preservation of above average recordings of composer’s music you admire and cherish. Moreover, in the main, soundtracks are engineered for the audiophile market, so lossless is only as value added as the quality of the recording itself.

I mean, personally, I couldn’t give a fuck if Brian Tyler’s music is only available in 128, another 400kbps isn’t going to improve on the lack of creativity or compensate for the mutilating compression.

Pretty much this for me. If it’s a composer I love I’m going to look for high quality, but if it isn’t I’ll take any quality so long as it is listenable (i.e. no nasty compression or messed up dynamic range etc).

P.S. I had the Bloodborne soundtrack in mp3, I loved. I then got it in flac and I was able to hear much more nuance to it, such as more subtle percussion etc. Then again, like I said, I’m listening with a sound system, even though it’s nowhere near top of the line. Super high flac would be wasted on cheap earphones or in a car with a roaring engine.

But for stereo cd’s take my word, with good sound system You can hear the difference not only between lossless and lossy but between lossy bitrate. Because that AAC going to 512 not 320 Kbps.

Z

I won’t argue the perceptive qualitative difference between lossless and lossy, because, thankfully, I’m still in possession of sensitive enough ears to notice a difference. It should be noted, however, that a great many people are not, whether because of an innate flaw, age related organic deterioration, or they’ve prematurely damaged the sensitivity of the organs from listening to too loud, to bass heavy music, for too many years (tinnitus is epidemic amongst millenials).

In which case, all those bits and bytes are simply a waste of space.

Really man, this is 2016 WHO serious enjoying music on I-Phone?

My phone has a built in DAC that can play 192 kHz/24 bit or DSD at 2.8 MHz or 5.6 MHz. That’s why I keep my lossless music on my phone.. Then again it’s not an iPhone.

———- Post added at 10:46 AM ———- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ———-

Has a doctor actually told you you have hyperacusis?

However this also causes severe migraines because my hearing is too good for my brain to process or so the doctors and specialists say).

And it’s a more recent development, started within the past 6 months. Finally got in to see my family doc about it who recommended me to a specialist, I’ve seen three different specialists and taken lots of different targeted hearing tests through the past month and a bit. Hence why I’ve not been here.

I meant the difference between MP3 320KBPS and any lossless format.

Yes, there can be a huge difference in that.

MP3 codec today is much better. If you got MP3 from 10 years ago, get a lossless version of the same song and make a new MP3 today and compare the 2 MP3’s and even that should make a difference.

Did you know that 50 % qobuz or i-tunes digital lossless downloads is maded on this way USING NORMALIZE FILTERS.
Really i don’t know why people buy that shit if cd comming!!!

I don’t like that either at all.

The market aims at Hi-Res a lot, but it would really aim for full dynamic range instead.

My phone has a built in DAC that can play 192 kHz/24 bit or DSD at 2.8 MHz or 5.6 MHz. That’s why I keep my lossless music on my phone.. Then again it’s not an iPhone.

Do you with your phone come and JAMO or PIONEER speakers in package? Just kid, it’s not about i-phone or any other phone this is about this dilemma headphones or speakers!!! Headphones are a TOOL for dj’s a ‘necessary evil’ when you are forced to listen in this way because presence of someone in the same room or when traveling by plane etc etc. Headphones will never be the same as the good speakers.

Well… the main purpose of good music is to comfortably fill space. Betoven would probably turning over in his grave if you knew that his symphonies someone listening via headphones.

Z

Mm-mm. To me, headphones are the best way to be listening to music. [Good] speakers are nice and may your preference, but you don’t know what Beethoven would do.

Really, he wouldn’t do anything, probably. He didn’t know about speakers or headphones, they were not invented yet. All he knew about it was the live performance of music with real instruments.

I also have an electrostatic amp and headphone set if that matters to you Zvonko. Or is that not God tier enough for you? Everyone has a preference. I love speakers and a good set of headphones equally. I love my headphones and speakers to have flat frequency responses. Is prefer to be immersed by high quality headphones because I do not have a proper room with which to listen to speakers as I would like to.

All in all it just comes down to preference. My phone’s output is a stereo 1/4 jack. I take my 150gb of lossless everywhere I go. Problem officer

you’d be a hoot on the hydrogenaudio forums.

have you done any extensive abx double blind testing?

I do not have a proper room with which to listen to speakers…

THIS IS PERHAPS THE MOST CRITICAL POINT.

An audiophile rated recording, let alone any above average recording, is worthless heard in a closet.

The walls need to be lined with copper to prevent any electrical interference from external sources (neighbors cell phones, etc).
All wires need to suspended off the ground with supporting lassos at 2 feet intervals.
Silver dip everything.
Ferrite cores every 5 meters on all cores.
You can use copper wire hangers to make some fancy triangles inside a tesseract and wear it like a helmet so it filters everything out and delivers only music to your ears.
Put tin foil on plating on your outer ear for best reception.
When you sleep, suspend yourself in an upside down fashion and in the morning, let the blood rush back to the rest of your body (if you’re still alive at this point) and your head will be cleansed, thus allowing you to focus your energies towards listening.

😉

My phone’s output is a stereo 1/4 jack. I take my 150gb of lossless everywhere I go. Problem officer

This part not understand at all. What has your stereo output with all story on this thread? Or yours 150 gb favorite music? Really man you just jump from topic to topic, little about speakers then about your jack and amplifier.

Please tell me which part of this definition you don’t understand

‘the main purpose of good music is to comfortably fill space’

What is space for you? The distance covered by headphones?

About your collection i’m collector that mean i collect only cd’s & vinyls. Other rips serve to me only to heard score once or twice. If i like music then make order, simple thing. So i can’t take with me bunch cd’s in any time but i have 2 external drives with 2Tb each. I have no problem to carry with me everywhere.

"god music" just confuses me. Do you not mean "good music"? Or is the music you speak of only intended for gods? Hmm…

———- Post added at 04:26 PM ———- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ———-

Ah. There you go.

Even so, you’re argument is not that valid, as it’s largely based on preference. There are a lot things you need to do to insure a proper environment for listening to music using speakers, whereas when you use headphones, it’s not much of a concern.

Some may not care, because they listen to music for the sole purpose of such, and just use speakers anyway, or headphones.

"god music" just confuses me. Do you not mean "good music"? Or is the music you speak of only intended for gods? Hmm…

Ok now we have expert here so i can go to rip something. His presence in this debate means only one thing:
no more intellectual conversation. SIGNING OFF

Unless I have something that is mp3 sourced, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING I LISTEN TO via digital files, is in Apple Lossless.

I play them on my iPod Touch 32GB and my iPod Nano 16GB. I either use my Sony MDR-10BT when I’m walking around inside or outside, sometimes with the cable (for maximum quality) sometimes with Bluetooth enabled, depending on the circumstances, or I plug the iPod in using a RCA to 3.5mm headphone adaptor cable into my stereo receiver.

I don’t need a fancier, "more expensive" digital file player. iPod with ALAC does me just fine. It’s all lossless audio without the bullshit or hype.

Ok now we have expert here so i can go to rip something. His presence in this debate means only one thing:
no more intellectual conversation. SIGNING OFF

I’m no expert. You’re just not very convincing in your reasoning.

I likened mp3s to cassette tapes. Eons ago it was the done thing to make a tape recording from an LP and whack it in a Walkman. Some players had a slightly higher frequency ability with the development of metal tapes and tape decks. Ultimately the quality wasn’t the same, but it was great to have an album on the go.

Maybe it just comes down to available space. Lossless is obviously going to sound better then compressed to some degree on any media player.

Space is cheap now.

I’m no expert. You’re just not very convincing in your reasoning.

Don’t worry, he’ll be back…

I prefer headphones too, if only because I personally feel that through partial genetics/age deterioration that I can only properly pick up on/enjoy certain instruments when using on/over ear headphones.

Don’t worry, he’ll be back…

I prefer headphones too, if only because I personally feel that through partial genetics/age deterioration that I can only properly pick up on/enjoy certain instruments when using on/over ear headphones.

From what I’ve seen, I believe you. Complainers on the internet always end up getting some fuel of sorts.

I love my headphones too. Thanks to me believing that anything can be good if it’s well made enough, how expensive your equipment is never really mattered. Tried two $100 products (Bose OE2 & Sol Republic Tracks HD), but they didn’t satisfy. My Superlux HD668B for $26 was the winner. Still interested in the Sennheiser Momentum though, especially after my demo of it. Also Brainwavz. Love their two in ears I own (Delta & Jives).

———- Post added at 12:45 AM ———- Previous post was at 12:36 AM ———-

‘the main purpose of good music is to comfortably fill space’

This statement can hold true. It’s just an emotional and mentality thing. Does music better suit you being close? Or at a distance?

Preference is the key.

The best lossy is now Opus, BTW
And it works on most new player.
Look at the spectrum of the different compressions.

It’s much closer to lossless when the recording mastering is average or better… And compresses better than mp3 vbr on average

problem with this debate is that the DACs are not being discussed. If you have a HD800, etc you need a DAC with a good amp, otherwise no point

You need QUIET background, no hum.

Lossless DOES reveal more: and this skewed most NOT when the recording is better than average, but when it is average or worse
That means … most recordings benefit from lossless if you like the tune at all
Information theory: … noise is not compressible. So you lose instrument information if the recording is not perfect, and slightly get muddled sound.
That cotton or ambiguity ANNOYS anyone who sometimes listens live

To see what I mean, go to a concert hall, and when the timpani hit, or the violins or horn enter in again, will have a much more DISTINGUISHABLE timbre than you hear in headphones or low end speakers
Or go to a rock concert. You will PHYSICALLY feel certain frequency distributions
THAT is the actual sound of the instrument
It is crystal clear. There is nothing halfway about it

It is not primarily higher frequencies getting cut that cuts distinguishability or simply fewer bits but most often fewer bits in the wrong places in the presence of noise and the timbre being changed (different frequency distribution per note)
And the distorted notes happen, by linearly summing with noisy surrounding, and relative each other, are less distinguishable
So less recognized as patterned.

That is what you are missing if your equipment is not good or the recording is not good
Now some recordings, the ones that are AMAZING, sound AMAZING even at 64 bitrate but most do not. That’s how you know
Because the best ones compress the BEST (and sound even punchier and grittier on good equipment when lossless, nearest to the recording)
More information is less uncertainty, up to the limit where all autocorrelations are accessible
Remember: less information is more uncertainty (with limit where all autocorrelations are equally inaccessible), more cotton, you like cotton?

Most people will only know Opus from chat programs or streaming music.

For other listening without the need to stream, people usually go the AAC way over something new-age.

You talk a lot about the compression methods and resulting psychoacoustics.
Which makes "look at the spectrum" a moot theory.

It’s good you talk more about "listening" to the music rather than looking at sonic wallpapers.

I just stick with anything 256 bit rate or above for MP3/AAC. Personally, I can’t tell much of a difference on most of my equipment. However, I know that with the right setup, you might be able to hear the difference. Just like with photography, I don’t want to learn too much or my standards will become too high. 😉

I am a novice, but I can tell you on an Iphone in a car with a decent stereo, you CAN hear the difference between an MP3 320 and FLAC/AFLAC, its a BIG difference for me anyways. Just to make sure I was not having any bias, I had 5 different people listen to 4 different songs MP3 and lossless, and they picked the lossless every time (Blind test).

Guess the point of starting the thread was if you get used to listening to lossey full time, and then switch back to lossless, I would think you can tell the difference. Just my 2 cents.

But you know what the say about opinions : – )

Lossless is a true archive of the original CD, that’s the big difference before the audio quality, MP3 cuts a lot of frequency so even if you don’t hear so much differences ( but there are a lot in fact with the full spectrum) you are sure to have a true copy it’s the most important, so I try to upgrade all my MP3 to lossless but for some very rare stuffs it’s not possible to have lossless.

Guys, always use ABX comparator with foobar2000 to compare lossy vs lossless. Honestly, any claim without an ABX log + tested files for download is worthless.