He caused countless pain and suffering, like the scene of aeris/aerith and red XIII.
He was using zach as a vr test subject.
He might have killed krast.Atm i don’t know if he did or not.
He used his wife and child as a test subject,causing his wife to die.
He tried to destroy the world.
He used countless soldiers as guinea pigs in the mako reactors.
This guy is big time evil.He has commited countless atrocities.
Even Hojo and Sephiroth are not without their redeeming features. Before he finds out the truth of himself, Sephiroth is actually a pretty okay guy (although Tifa senses the evil within him from the first time she meets him, before he even knows himself). Hojo meanwhile has committed all kinds of despicable acts, but at the very end before he dies on the Mako Cannon, he does reveal that despite his insanity and evil, he loves his son even if his son despises him. He may not act it and he may not like it, but he does care about Sephiroth and it tips him right over the edge into utter madness.
I think on balance that Hojo and Sephiroth probably are the most evil characters in the series. Sephiroth is the product of a union of 2 truly evil entities (Hojo and the cells of JENOVA), and its implied that Lucretia was no saint either (although she genuinely seems to regret what happened). Hojo is a man who is literally driven out of his mind by his need to surpass Dr Gast. Unlike Gast, he views the world soley in scientific terms, and misses the other side of the science/spiritual equation that gave Gast his genius. Therefore the work of Hojo results in monsters and evil, rather than Gast’s union with Ifalna which creates Aeris – a girl who is in some ways too good for the wretched world she was born into, like Holy she was a shining light in the darkness. And she is destroyed by Hojo, JENOVA and Sephiroth’s evil. Though she has the final say with Holy.
Even Hojo and Sephiroth are not without their redeeming features. Before he finds out the truth of himself, Sephiroth is actually a pretty okay guy (although Tifa senses the evil within him from the first time she meets him, before he even knows himself). Hojo meanwhile has committed all kinds of despicable acts, but at the very end before he dies on the Mako Cannon, he does reveal that despite his insanity and evil, he loves his son even if his son despises him. He may not act it and he may not like it, but he does care about Sephiroth and it tips him right over the edge into utter madness.
I think on balance that Hojo and Sephiroth probably are the most evil characters in the series. Sephiroth is the product of a union of 2 truly evil entities (Hojo and the cells of JENOVA), and its implied that Lucretia was no saint either (although she genuinely seems to regret what happened). Hojo is a man who is literally driven out of his mind by his need to surpass Dr Gast. Unlike Gast, he views the world soley in scientific terms, and misses the other side of the science/spiritual equation that gave Gast his genius. Therefore the work of Hojo results in monsters and evil, rather than Gast’s union with Ifalna which creates Aeris – a girl who is in some ways too good for the wretched world she was born into, like Holy she was a shining light in the darkness. And she is destroyed by Hojo, JENOVA and Sephiroth’s evil. Though she has the final say with Holy.
The problem i have with this, is even if he said that he loved his son, i’m not sure if i believe him due to what he did to his son.Maybe he is just plain nuts, because what he did to his son if he was in our world, he would have been thrown in prison for life or in the nut house.
Sephiroth on the other hand was more sympathetic than hojo.Sure he killed people but i think of it this way:If a dog has been abused and bites someone in the end, sure the dog is bad, but the person who abused the dog leading to that is worse.It would be one thing if we saw sephiroth choose to do selfish acts without a care of the repercussions, such as other ff villains.But for the life of me i have trouble truly blaming sephiroth fully.I’m not surprised he went nuts and killed people.Heck the jenova cells cause you to go nuts, but hojo was nuts before he injected himself.It might be he had cells in him before that, who knows because in the end of the game when you kill him he did inject himself he said.I can’t be sure though when exactly he injected himself since we didn’t see him do it.
I dont’ remember clearly when or why, but i think it had something to do with vincent not agreeing with what was done to lucrecia, making it even more a tragedy in itself.
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14360
This point in itself is interesting.
As for Sephiroth… well, he was planning to murder everyone in the whole world, so I’m not sure how much sympathy I have with him! Plus he murdered Aeris in cold blood, after trying to force Cloud to do for it. Sephiroth may have had a raw deal in life, but he had plenty of good people around him giving postive example of how to behave (Zack, Cloud etc) that he can’t just blame an abusive start in life. The evil was put inside him against his will, and his mother Lucretia grieves terribly for him because to her, he will always simply be her beloved son.
But by the time of Final Fantasy 7’s events, Sephiroth has become a true monster. He’s already killed countless innocents, and intends to finish off by killing everyone on the planet. In terms of the scale of murder he plans, but also because of the intimacy of the cruelty he causes to Cloud and Aeris, driving them apart and trying to get Cloud to beat and murder her, he has to be stopped. His father and mother will always love him, but that doesn’t change the facts. Vincent understands this, and though it will be a grave crime to Lucretia to murder her son, he resolves that it must be done. Because evil like that of Hojo, JENOVA and Sephiroth must not be allowed to exist – something he feels may apply to himself after what was done to him.
As for Sephiroth… well, he was planning to murder everyone in the whole world, so I’m not sure how much sympathy I have with him! Plus he murdered Aeris in cold blood, after trying to force Cloud to do for it. Sephiroth may have had a raw deal in life, but he had plenty of good people around him giving postive example of how to behave (Zack, Cloud etc) that he can’t just blame an abusive start in life. The evil was put inside him against his will, and his mother Lucretia grieves terribly for him because to her, he will always simply be her beloved son.
But by the time of Final Fantasy 7’s events, Sephiroth has become a true monster. He’s already killed countless innocents, and intends to finish off by killing everyone on the planet. In terms of the scale of murder he plans, but also because of the intimacy of the cruelty he causes to Cloud and Aeris, driving them apart and trying to get Cloud to beat and murder her, he has to be stopped. His father and mother will always love him, but that doesn’t change the facts. Vincent understands this, and though it will be a grave crime to Lucretia to murder her son, he resolves that it must be done. Because evil like that of Hojo, JENOVA and Sephiroth must not be allowed to exist – something he feels may apply to himself after what was done to him.
The problem i have with hojo being in love with sephiroth, is i find it hard to believe that someone who puts their wife and child through such hardships for his own selfis desires, can truly love someone that much.Maybe i’m wrong maybe not, but you do put up some interesting ideas which i will gladly discuss with you.
The reason i’m not sure, is because of i think it was in dirge of cerberus where supposedly, hojo tried to conquer the world.I just have doubts a person like hojo has a soul, since he must have one of the blackest hearts in ff7.
What he did to vincent also was pretty rotten too.
Anyway, the fact is that Hojo knows that by aiding Sephiroth on the Mako Cannon, he is dooming both the world but also himself. I just don’t see why he would do something like that, because its utterly sucidal. He admits he is doing it to help his son, and I can’t see any reason to doubt that under the circumstances (why would he lie about it at this point, what could he possibly gain seeing as how he plans to kill Cloud and the others anyway?) And like I say, aiding Sephiroth will mean his death. There’s no reason to do it, except a father’s love for his son.
And as for his actions to Sephiroth and Lucretia, yeah he is a complete jerk and a monster, and is someone who abuses and neglects his family. But he is hardly alone in that – the world is full of such tales. A lot of fathers have trouble relating to their kids, and admitting their feelings because it just isn’t the way they are wired. But that doesn’t mean they don’t care. For a famous example of that, just look at Star Wars – Darth Vader is utterly ruthless and heartless throughout the movies, until the end of Return of the Jedi when he sacrifices himself, his position and all the power he has been destroying whole worlds and slaughtering innocents by the billions to obtain, all to save his son’s life.
On a personal note, I have huge problems with my own father. We are very different people and don’t really agree on anything. I have very few good memories associated with him, but certain events in our life remind us now and again that we do love each other, despite all that. I love him, but I don’t really like him basically. Life is a very complicated thing – it isn’t simply the case that people who care are nice to each other all the time. More’s the pity really…
I wasn’t fully sure about hojo though.I thought that he was just mostly insane as it was and possibly i theorize that he injected jenova cells in himself ages ago.He did act pretty nutty and creepy most of the part.He seemed to admire sephiroth, but it didn’t feel like he admired him as a person but rather as a experiment that was succesfull, if that makes any sense.
Love is a complicated thing. Hojo’s interest in Sephiroth is stemming from seeing his son as a success that he can take credit for, and prove to the world that he was better (in his own mind) that Dr Gast. But the scene on the Mako cannon strongly suggests he has moved on from all that. The end of the world will do that – remove the pretence and leave only the truth, because what does anything else matter at that point? He no longer speaks of Sephiroth in purely experimental suceess terms. He refers to him as his son and speaks of his desire to protect him. Its only at the very end, in the depths of his madness and just before the world is destroyed, that he can admit to himself and others that he really did care for his son, even though its far too late now to make any difference to anyone.
As with Ject and Tidus, Balthier and Dr Cid, Zidane and… whatever that big guy’s name was who runs the acting troupe, Final Fantasy is full of parents and kids who just can’t get along, despite how much they love each other. And not just actual parents either, because there are plenty of surrogate parental relationships too. It doesn’t excuse the actions of people like Hojo or Sephiroth, but it makes them more believeable as characters.
Its why characters like Hojo and Sephiroth matter to me an infinite amount more than someone like Kefka. Because Kefka is just some crazy guy with no story, and to me that isn’t interesting in the slightest. His actions may be evil, but I just can’t connect or care or find any reason to assign crediblity to such a 2D caricature. He’s only a character in the same way as I consider Dr Claw from Inspector Gadget to be a character, or Baron Greenback from Dangermouse.
Sephiroth’s reaction to finding out his true lineage is consistent with how much importance people place on lineage. You must understand that rightly or wrongly, people judge indiviudals by what they know of their family members, particularly the parents. If the parents are seen to be good people, then the child will be warmly received too. If the parents are guilty of some kind of awful crime, then society will (unjustly) view the child as being of ‘bad blood’, of belonging to a line which has evil in its blood. Its a backwards and silly attitude, but even today people will go to great pains to cover up embarassing or criminal reletives, because they know that assoication with them will cost them in life. Eugenics is the ultimate expression of this kind of thing, the attempt to actually distill certain traits and often to implant favourable 0nes from selected sources. Sephiroth has spent his whole life being told and believing that he is a once in a lifetime specimen, a truly outstanding and naturally gifted man. He has tried to keep the pride which emanates from this under control and to help those around him achieve their own success. But he clearly views his prowess with pride, and praises Dr Gast for his work in the belief that Gast’s work magnified his own greatness, that they were both outstanding individuals. Learning that his greatness is actually aritifically induced by a man he openly mocks – Hojo – destroys his sense of self esteem. He is no longer the perfect superhuman man, he is just some thing grown in a vat by a madman.
His ego cannot accept this humble and unwholesome origin, and so he reaches for a more dignified explanation, identifying with tales of injustice done to great people, and believing that is what is what is happening to him. Because as soon as people find out the truth, they will stop seeing him as the great and mighty Sephiroth, the uniquely gifted and strong man that everyone currently sees him as. They will start whispering that he is a monster, that he is unnatural. They will see him as something that should not be part of society. Whether any of that would actually happen is debateable, but the important thing is that Sephiroth believes it will. His ego cannot accept anything less than what he has believes all his ife – that he is special, that he is descended from greatness, and that righteous and powerful blood flows in his veins. His grasp of the history is imperfect, due to his feverish reading of the reports, but the narrative he constructs allows his mind to cope with the shock of learning he is not who he thought he was.
You may dismiss it, but this kind of thing is real. People judge bloodlines, and they labele certain families as ‘they’re all crazy, that lot’ and assume that mere exposure to unsavoury people will have had an effect on them. Logically there is no real justification for any of that. But people believe it, they always have, they still do and they probably always will. If you were found to be a descendant of King Arthur, you’d want people to know about it, because its pretty cool and people would respect it. If you were found to be a descendant of Ted Bundy, then you wouldn’t tell anyone, would you?
I do agree that a villain needs a counterpoint in a strong hero. Which is why I like FF7 and not FF6, seeing as how 6 is an ensemble cast, and 7 has the hero’s backstory tied intimately to the villain. Cloud’s story *is* Sephiroth’s story.
But I have nothing further to add, so I’ll leave it there. The games are all very old now, and I’ve said all of this before.
Man, you never change, do you? Always accusing and attacking people of bias, just because they don’t agree with your opinions. Either learn to debate in a civilsed and open manner, or just write a blog or something. Forums are for debate, and the sharing of opinions. And using thread derailment as an excuse to shut people down is just cheap beyond belief.
I’m done.