If it’s the battle system being auto, why is that a bad thing? I mean in the old FF’s weren’t you just pushing X to attack, then down-X-X to select a spell? In this game, all you have to do is press it once and don’t have to worry about selecting it. But if it really bothers you so much, you can still manually select it!
If it’s the linear path in the game, well I think that’s awesome! I’m a perfectionist and HATE to beat a game without getting everything. This time around I can beat the game first, THEN worry about getting everything, plus you get a new crystarium level!
If it’s the story, well I can’t help you there. Stories are always a personal opinion. For example, FF8 is my absolute fav game of ALL time, but many don’t like it cause the story. I thought the story in 7 was awesome too, but to me, it just didn’t compare to 8.
If it’s the characters, yet again that’s personal opinion. I hate little kids (notice how they ALWAYS appear in JRPGS???) but I found Vanille and Hope to actually not be near as annoying!
It seems to me that A LOT of people had too many high expectations of the game and when their outrageous idea wasn’t in the game they were hell bent on hating it, never giving it a try. Me, I just went with the flow and didn’t make any unruly ideas and just kept to reality.
But anyway, I’m just curious to know why people didn’t care for it. I won’t flame anybody for their opinions, and I hope you won’t flame me for mine…
Also, welcome to Shrine 🙂
SERIOUS BIDNESS MAY NOW PROCEED~
I’m not ENTIRELY new, I had an account on here a while back and can’t remember my user name now…But thanks for welcoming me back anyway! =D
/thread
It is too linear.There are no towns and no npc intereaction.
No real minigames, just those quests which are a lot like the hunts in FFXII.Some monster you have to kill as opposed to the traditional minigames which Square seems to have abandoned.
A lack of diverse magic.Again no blue magic.
Not being able to control all the characters during a battle.Not being able to switch characters in and out of your party during battles.
More difficult to make gil in this game than even in FFXII.
Unable to reach the final level of the crystalarium until the post game.
Stuff like that.
It’s better than FFXII but not by very much.It’s not an epic FF and fans were expecting it to be hence their disappointment.
…and this is were I stopped reading.
Uh, there is treasure chests in FFXIII though Smarty – they’re those floating silver orbs that make a whirring, winning noise when you’re near them. Most were hidden off the ‘main path’ though and required either a little exploration or the strategy guide to find.
At least treasure orbs weren’t random anymore like in FFXII. I hated opening one in FFXII expecting something good, only to get 1 gil (and that’s even if the treasure container was even there; half the time they didn’t spawn at all).
But yeah, FFXIII’s main problem is it’s linearity. Of course being fugitives it’s obvious they can’t just wander freely around the world, but there were other examples of similar plots in earlier FF games where the cast became fugitives from the law and were still able to explore the world map to an extent. FFXIII’s linearity just came across as an example of the development team spending more time developing the graphics engine than working on gameplay and storyline.
I still like it though. Don’t ask why; I guess I’m just not hard to impress.
Really? Well, I guess I just didn’t encounter any. I didn’t play it for very long.
Totally, everyone should have gone into FF13 with extremely low expectations, you know with Square’s reputation for making quality RPGs and the fact that it was like 8 years or whatever in the making. Yeah. Not expecting good things at all yo.
ROFLCOPTER!!!
Very true, though.
There’s one moments after the first battle in the game.
I have no idea how it COULDN’T have been linear! It was that way because of the story and scenario.
I doubt if you became a fugitive ON THE RUN and hated by the whole world, you would be stopping in towns and going to some chocobo expo or messing around. If you were allowed to, I think that would be another issue today. Doesn’t make sense if you think about it. The setting of the game world isn’t one that I would want to explore anyways. Coocoon/Pulse seem like places where it would suck live in.
Luckily some sidequests come later but it’s this extraordinary story that limits the gameplay/freedom mainly. It’s win-lose. Win for me because I haven’t seen a game with a story like this in a long time and sometimes I like getting to the point. The story takes a while to develop so just playing mini-games and wondering in my mind what’s actually going or what happened in the past on would kill me even more…. You just have to bear with it.
FF13 goes for that in some measure, but stays faithful to JRPG tradition in others, creating a kind of Frankenstein’s Monster of a game, that doesn’t truly appeal to West or East. Another example of this is how the game is extremely linear until the later chapters where it suddenly becomes open world without warning.
I liked this game, but I don’t begrudge people for disliking it, because it often makes itself very hard to love. the only thing I would really take issue with are the accusations that the game’s plot is weak. I think it could have been told better, but the story itself is very good indeed.
And my stance on towns full of pointless NPCs and peaceful rural music is a matter of public record – they are always extremely boring and we’re better off without them.
FF13 is a good game, but western gamers don’t like JRPGs anymore. So to be truly sucessful, it would have had to either be near perfect or compromise so much in deference to western gamers, that it wasn’t a JRPG at all.
My personal opinion is that they should stop trying to appease western gamers, because they are never going to do it. They should forget what analysts and industry forecasters tell them they should be trying to do and just trust their own instincts.
Because those instincts are what gave us the classic old JRPGs.
I have no idea how it COULDN’T have been linear! It was that way because of the story and scenario.
I doubt if you became a fugitive ON THE RUN and hated by the whole world, you would be stopping in towns and going to some chocobo expo or messing around. If you were allowed to, I think that would be another issue today. Doesn’t make sense if you think about it. The setting of the game world isn’t one that I would want to explore anyways. Coocoon/Pulse seem like places where it would suck live in.
Luckily some sidequests come later but it’s this extraordinary story that limits the gameplay/freedom mainly. It’s win-lose. Win for me because I haven’t seen a game with a story like this in a long time and sometimes I like getting to the point. The story takes a while to develop so just playing mini-games and wondering in my mind what’s actually going or what happened in the past on would kill me even more…. You just have to bear with it.
I truly agree, it’s soo good! I guess people expected more of a FF7 with better graphics though :/
You seem cool 🙂 Nice to see a friendly new person for a change 😀 Welcome!
And my stance on towns full of pointless NPCs and peaceful rural music is a matter of public record – they are always extremely boring and we’re better off without them. .
This is why I’m loving FFXIII so far as well. Never understood the appeal of talking to NPCs for useless info.
FF13 goes for that in some measure, but stays faithful to JRPG tradition in others, creating a kind of Frankenstein’s Monster of a game, that doesn’t truly appeal to West or East. Another example of this is how the game is extremely linear until the later chapters where it suddenly becomes open world without warning.
I liked this game, but I don’t begrudge people for disliking it, because it often makes itself very hard to love. the only thing I would really take issue with are the accusations that the game’s plot is weak. I think it could have been told better, but the story itself is very good indeed.
And my stance on towns full of pointless NPCs and peaceful rural music is a matter of public record – they are always extremely boring and we’re better off without them.
FF13 is a good game, but western gamers don’t like JRPGs anymore. So to be truly sucessful, it would have had to either be near perfect or compromise so much in deference to western gamers, that it wasn’t a JRPG at all.
My personal opinion is that they should stop trying to appease western gamers, because they are never going to do it. They should forget what analysts and industry forecasters tell them they should be trying to do and just trust their own instincts.
Because those instincts are what gave us the classic old JRPGs.
Wow, well said
For example, the critics went into rapturous fits of ectasy about Bayonetta and Vanquish, but nobody listened. Even with wall to wall perfect scores, Bayonetta was a minor hit at best, and Vanquish as far as I can tell, flopped miserably.
The critics know very well that a healthy and creative Japanese contribution to the industry is vital, and their excessive bashing of Jap games has not been helpful at all (RE5 and FF13 for example, could have been better certainly, but they were nowhere close to being as bad as many western critics were saying.)
You can’t please everybody nowadays… and videogame fans can be quite relentless, brutal and merciless when it comes to games.
And these are underhyped games we’re talking about (and awesome games btw, both of them). RE5 and FF13 were bashed a lot, but both sold several millions… And so do many other Japanese games. Street Fighter IV, Tekken 6, Lost Planet, Persona 4, Demon’s Souls… Japanese games are still selling. People are never gonna give up on Japan. I’m certainly not going to anytime soon.
Good game, yes, I thought so. But better than most out there? Even from what I saw of it, no, not by a longshot.
No it wasn’t, and there ARE better games available.
They were building it up to truly ridiculous levels, trying to make it a big hit. Even Edge magazine, which is one of the harsher reviewers, gave it 10/10. And yet you can barely find anyone about on the internet with a good word to say about the game (its metacritic user score is poor as well). And I really wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Vanquish to become a big hit.
As for RE5, it sold excellently, but it’s fairly obvious that it did that with no aid from the critics, and largely due to its name and the success of its direct predecessor. Much like FF13 in that regard.
I really liked RE5, but the reaction from fans and mainstream has been overwhelmingly negative. People just keep insisting that its rubbish compared to RE4, which isn’t true at all IMO.
And again at least over here in Britain, Lost Planet 2, Persona 4 and Demon’s Souls sank without trace. Not sure about Tekken 6, but I don’t remember it being touted as some huge success story.
Sequels to big franchises sell well – that’s no surprise, seeing as how its what the industry almost exclusively is these days. But the constant bashing that the Jap games have been getting, mean that people aren’t willing to venture outside of the big names and give anything new a chance.
Not this generation of RPG games on consoles there aren’t. Not that the RPGs are bad this gen, just underwhelming. Final Fantasy XIII, and maybe Nier (for story and soundtrack) were the highlights of RPGs this gen for consoles. For handhelds…well you have quite a selection there.
Lost Odyssey, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age: Origins (Awakening) beg to differ Esura.
Even if a game scores 100% on Metacritic and Gamerankings and you can’t find a single person on the face of the earth that has something bad about it to say about it, it’s just not going to sell very well if it’s not advertised. Most people shop for games the same way they shop for anything else. They just go to the store and buy what looks interesting, or what they know they’re gonna like. They’re not gonna bother looking for reviews on the internet. Believe me, I know.
"..The Collective Experience..Yea its wierd its gonna be interesting to see, what a pop-culture reference looks like in 20 years. Because we are kinda isolating, isolating, isolating, and also entertainment is being made for smaller and smaller demographics….you get out of it what you put into it, and some people just go on the internet to spill bile and thats all they’re ever gonna get out of it. I like to get on the internet and be productive, get really high and get creative, you know, its fun"
You know we have no great war, no great depression so we tend to get bored (lol paraphrase), and in doing so we become cynical critics not only of games but of everything. Nothing seems to come from the passion and heart of doing something anymore now its just "How much money can we get if we do this" or "What am i going to rip apart today" Thats what saddens me about the industry for the most part.
I never read bad reviews anymore, i just try it if it appeals to me
Nope, Lost Odyssey and Origins (even Awakening) aren’t better than FFXIII imo. I’ve only played Mass Effect for a few hours as a rental on my brother’s 360 so I can’t fully judge that. Same with Mass Effect 2. However I just bought Mass Effect 2 for PS3 for 30 bucks, so I’ll play it and let you know if its better than FFXIII. I heard some fans of ME were questioning its legitimacy of it being a RPG in general though. From what I’ve played of ME2 though on 360….it didn’t feel like an RPG at all.
That’s your own opinion. To me, Dragon Age: Origins and Awakening are superior to FFXIII. Hell, even Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic IS superior to FFXIII.
I’ve only played Mass Effect for a few hours as a rental on my brother’s 360 so I can’t fully judge that. Same with Mass Effect 2. However I just bought Mass Effect 2 for PS3 for 30 bucks, so I’ll play it and let you know if its better than FFXIII. I heard some fans of ME were questioning its legitimacy of it being a RPG in general though. From what I’ve played of ME2 though on 360….it didn’t feel like an RPG at all.
Mass Effect is a Action RPG. Has some elements of other RPG’s, as well as Shooter elements. Play Mass Effect, then Mass Effect 2 as you can import your character from the first to the second (And then to the third when that is released November/December this year).
Getting Mass Effect 2 for PS3.
Then you don’t get the full experience of the Mass Effect games. A crappy interactive comic, with only 6 choices to carry over into Mass Effect 2… while Xbox 360/PC users can play the full game of Mass Effect (along with a Hell of a lot more choices besides 6) and transfer their character over to Mass Effect 2.
VI still does have haters 🙁
But it’s not enough reason to hate it. :S
Haters gonna hate I guess….
While I applaud Square for trying new battle systems in XII and XIII, I really hope XV is a return to the series’ roots in HD. Sure, XII and XIII are more realistic in battle, but I enjoy turn based combat and believe that’s one of Final Fantasy’s defining qualities.
Fun and hectic don’t really go together.
Also I don’t know who mentioned the point regarding talking to "useless NPCs", but I doubt they ever read a book. In order to paint a world with cities, demographics and cultures you need to have populated cities, each with characteristic personalities. Using NPCs can add a lot to the atmosphere. For example, Treno in FF9 had a slum sector and a "rich" sector, where there were thieves and gamblers and rich patrons all over the city. You don’t need to talk to the NPCs to get a feel of a cosmopolitan city with pretty staggered social differences due to the gap between the rich and the poor. It gives the City of Night a lot of personality that areas in Final Fantasy 13 are missing. Hopefully, this made some sense to some people.
Try any fun destruction-based racing game like carmageddon, or something where the focus is high pressure, low time limit…don’t be absurd, the concepts CAN co-exist, and have in many cases. I’ve been enjoying the game so far…it’s not 9, but that’s my favourite game of all time…so yeah! XD;
Even if a game scores 100% on Metacritic and Gamerankings and you can’t find a single person on the face of the earth that has something bad about it to say about it, it’s just not going to sell very well if it’s not advertised. Most people shop for games the same way they shop for anything else.
Truth!
For example, Ghost Trick is PRAISED to all heck by everyone who bought it…but it wasn’t highly advertised and suffered low sales as a result.
Damn shame, it’s absolutely amazing game…especially for the DS!
The Paradigm shift battle system, where every switch was disjointed and took away from the combat experience imo. What are you talking about? Is it…
something where the focus is high pressure, low time limit…
Yeah, doesn’t really sound like FF13’s system. Which might have made it a better game, although I don’t know by how much.
I just think the overall point of it was lost on you, perhaps, and that’s where the issue lies.
With, the battle system it felt like Square was trying to go for a turn-based/action hybrid that just didn’t quite work for the following reasons:
1. Controlling one character-the fact that you could only control one character pretty much takes the tactics out of it. Thought the paradigm system somewhat makes up for this, but not enough.
2. Auto Battle- really, with this option, the battles become mind numbingly tedious
3. Losing when your player character dies- really, do I need to go into detail here? I probably lost more because of this than anything else, and it makes no darn sense when you’ve got people in your party who can resurrect you and Phoenix Downs!!!!
4. Not having a backup team- Really, you have six people in your group and only three fight at one time. So what the heck are the other three doing while your fighting? Why can’t we cycle teams if they are all not fighting together (which is wall banger in and of itself)?
5. Cycling through menus- going back to the hybridization of the combat system, I hated the menus. Really, since the game only uses the control stick and two buttons, could we not map some functions to the other buttons or even have a voice recognition system so you could bark out orders, like in Tom Clancy’s Endwar, a fiercely underrated game. The menus made sense when the games were still real turn based games and you could still do everything on your turn. Now, you are consistently rushed to do everything to keep up with the computer which moves as if this is an action RPG. There were a few times when I lost because I was in such hurry to get something, I pressed the wrong thing ("I wanted Potion not Antidote!"), and that is infuriating.
6. Posing- The paradigm system helped keep it interesting for a while, but your characters’ incessant need to "pose" when they shift, even as they’re being attacked, is just stupid.
7. Suspension of Disbelief: Really, does this system make any sense? Turn based was alright, because it was uniform; everyone took turns. In this game, you are constantly being attacked, and yet can’t move on your own, or attack consistently, thus destroying the game’s believability.
8. Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory
The story, was ok, but was only really understandable if you read the datalogs. This didn’t bother me as much as it bothered some people, as I like reading, its just that it is not how a story should be told. Though it was OK that the story started in the middle of all the action, it just didn’t handle this too well. What was lacking was a "Tidus-like" character: a clueless POV character who would need to have things explained to him, thus, by virtue, explaining things to the audience. Because this game lacks that, everyone just throws around words without frame of reference, and even some cut scenes can only be perfectly understood if you read the datalogs, and that is unacceptable. The characters were a mixed bag of cool and annoying.
The Crysterium (not sure if thats how you spell it) was bloated and pointless and a simple level up system would suffice. Also the system by which you leveled up weapons and gear was also bloated and unnecessary, as you are constantly finding new stuff anyway and thus, don’t really need all the leveling up. Also, money got harder to find later in the game, and the game finds itself hindered by several difficulty spikes.
In short, this game had a lot of potential, but squandered it. I came in expecting to be blown away, now I’m just angry that I wasted my money, and because of this game, I might just swear off Final Fantasy. Though the production values were good, that’s about it. This game felt like all flash and no substance, and that is disappointing. I may buy Versus XIII (if I get a PS3), but that may be it. Though you can say that this game is hated by many because its "Japanese" or Final Fantasy, really that’s just avoiding the fact that this game has real problems, and most people simply didn’t like it for these problems.
ff13 is so far from traditional "turn-based" combat and for me, totally did redeem the experience. if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you’d see it in a different light. there are a few problems with it though–my biggest of which is the ui, which is quite a mess.
With, the battle system it felt like Square was trying to go for a turn-based/action hybrid that just didn’t quite work for the following reasons:
1. Controlling one character-the fact that you could only control one character pretty much takes the tactics out of it. Thought the paradigm system somewhat makes up for this, but not enough.
theres a lot of tactics still. but a lot of it has been taken out of battle and into pre-battle preparation. if you don’t like spending time in menus, you won’t like this game as much. theres also a hell of a lot of microing that must be done with fairly precise timing, i.e. using the ‘tortoise’ battle team of 3 sentinels to defend against a powerful attack.
2. Auto Battle- really, with this option, the battles become mind numbingly tedious
i’ve barely used this option, so i don’t know the full functionality of it. if you don’t like it, don’t use it.
3. Losing when your player character dies- really, do I need to go into detail here? I probably lost more because of this than anything else, and it makes no darn sense when you’ve got people in your party who can resurrect you and Phoenix Downs!!!!
you either like this game mechanic or you don’t. there’s nothing innately wrong with this mechanic.
4. Not having a backup team- Really, you have six people in your group and only three fight at one time. So what the heck are the other three doing while your fighting? Why can’t we cycle teams if they are all not fighting together (which is wall banger in and of itself)?
like i said, a lot of the tactics have been transfered into pre-battle preparation. if you don’t like spending time in menus, you won’t like this game as much. again, theres nothing innately wrong with this mechanic, you either like it or you don’t. compare it to a tcg (trading card game): you can’t bring a whole box of cards to a battle, you can only use one single deck for a battle. a lot of strategy goes into building that deck almost as much as playing the deck itself.
5. Cycling through menus- going back to the hybridization of the combat system, I hated the menus. Really, since the game only uses the control stick and two buttons, could we not map some functions to the other buttons or even have a voice recognition system so you could bark out orders, like in Tom Clancy’s Endwar, a fiercely underrated game. The menus made sense when the games were still real turn based games and you could still do everything on your turn. Now, you are consistently rushed to do everything to keep up with the computer which moves as if this is an action RPG. There were a few times when I lost because I was in such hurry to get something, I pressed the wrong thing ("I wanted Potion not Antidote!"), and that is infuriating.
i’ll give ya this one. the ui does indeed suck, as i stated earlier.
6. Posing- The paradigm system helped keep it interesting for a while, but your characters’ incessant need to "pose" when they shift, even as they’re being attacked, is just stupid.
again, this is another mechanic that’s not necessarily bad, rather you just don’t like it. do you think it would be balanced if you can insta-switch between paradigms? don’t you think that would be a bit overpowered? this mechanic requires you to think more and use the paradigm shifting more tactically. you said you wanted tactics, didn’t you? button mashing paradigm shifts wouldn’t be as tactical as precisely timed paradigm shifts imo.
7. Suspension of Disbelief: Really, does this system make any sense? Turn based was alright, because it was uniform; everyone took turns. In this game, you are constantly being attacked, and yet can’t move on your own, or attack consistently, thus destroying the game’s believability.
i’ll give ya this one too, but not for the fact of disbelief, rather i don’t think it makes for a good game mechanic. i would’ve preferred perhaps a grid system in place, or like you said give the player some control. right now it is completely random element that can either help you or hurt you.
8. Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory
then how would you explain the storyline? while i don’t agree that it should’ve been there from the start, i did feel the progress was dreadfully slow, so they should’ve introduced them much much sooner.
i’ve played most ff’s (missed out on iv and skipped xii), but i’d have to say this is one of the better battle systems out there. i’d rate it lower than ffx/ffx-2, but better than vii, viii, and ix (vii comes really really close though).
one thing i do miss though is a mini-game. ffviii’s battle system wasn’t my cup of tea, but damn was that mini game all sorts of awesome.
Liking or not liking it doesn’t change that after using Libra, you don’t have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there’s no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.
It is incredibly tedious. Even if you didn’t like auto-battle, they way they designed the moves/fighting system was stupid.
if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you’d see it in a different light.
I did grow up with traditional fighting systems, and although the initial impact the fighting system had on me was impressive, it did not pan out in my opinion. I appreciate the move towards a new direction, but small things, like the Paradigm shift doing a camera pan over all three characters individually as they "shift" combined with the fact that you’re shifting all the time keeps battle strangely disjointed at times. I think it’s too flashy and not really necessary. Again, you can say that this is a personal issue but a lot of things in their combat system makes the actual fighting disjointed and in a way trivialized (flips aren’t cool when you do it 5000 times and neither is knocking enemies into the sky 5000 times).
again, this is another mechanic that’s not necessarily bad, rather you just don’t like it. do you think it would be balanced if you can insta-switch between paradigms? don’t you think that would be a bit overpowered? this mechanic requires you to think more and use the paradigm shifting more tactically. you said you wanted tactics, didn’t you? button mashing paradigm shifts wouldn’t be as tactical as precisely timed paradigm shifts imo.
I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn’t overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you’re responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.
Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory
This was never an issue with the game. Final Fantasy 4 purposely threw your party into disarray all the time. I’m not using FF4 as an model for comparison but the lack of party members shouldn’t affect game flow. The only reason it sucked (at least for me) is that the environments lacked real depth. The only area that felt really good was the very beginning when you feel rushed and chased and in an industrial area which was awesome. After that, poop.
Also even if you think it’s one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting. It’s been 6 years since FF12, and given the potential of FF13’s battle system, small things like the posing during Paradigm shifts, the naturally limiting nature of having a Paradigm system, and the need to constantly shift take away from the flow of battle. By spinning the camera and having 4 attacks per "turn" instead of one doesn’t speed up the battle, it just makes it more clusterfucky, if that’s the right word. There’s not enough substance in the combat system.
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You have to shift about 7 to 8 times in order to set up a fight and get the enemy staggered. There is no skill or technique involved, just a switch between presets. Even then, in order to keep up Debuffs during an "attack phase" you would need to do a shift that distracts from the flow by literally cutting the camera across the screen, in order for you to switch to that. If you didn’t encounter this or "get" this from playing the game, then you used the basic 4 and one or two additional ones to get you through most fights and didn’t realize that the battle system is incredibly limited and disjointed by forcing to you shift roles midfight, preventing you from fighting while keeping up heals and debuffs/buffs. You don’t NEED to do this but in order to effectively fight, you should be doing this. After 500 fights, you end up saying fuck this, and use 4 paradigms and auto battle. At the end of the game or when you get bored of using 4, you may use 6, but it’s the same preset switching that doesn’t allow you to freely shift during a fight depending on what YOU want to do and instead focuses on a preset combination of moves.
It is incredibly tedious. Even if you didn’t like auto-battle, they way they designed the moves/fighting system was stupid.
I did grow up with traditional fighting systems, and although the initial impact the fighting system had on me was impressive, it did not pan out in my opinion. I appreciate the move towards a new direction, but small things, like the Paradigm shift doing a camera pan over all three characters individually as they "shift" combined with the fact that you’re shifting all the time keeps battle strangely disjointed at times. I think it’s too flashy and not really necessary. Again, you can say that this is a personal issue but a lot of things in their combat system makes the actual fighting disjointed and in a way trivialized (flips aren’t cool when you do it 5000 times and neither is knocking enemies into the sky 5000 times).
I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn’t overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you’re responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.
This was never an issue with the game. Final Fantasy 4 purposely threw your party into disarray all the time. I’m not using FF4 as an model for comparison but the lack of party members shouldn’t affect game flow. The only reason it sucked (at least for me) is that the environments lacked real depth. The only area that felt really good was the very beginning when you feel rushed and chased and in an industrial area which was awesome. After that, poop.
Also even if you think it’s one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting. It’s been 6 years since FF12, and given the potential of FF13’s battle system, small things like the posing during Paradigm shifts, the naturally limiting nature of having a Paradigm system, and the need to constantly shift take away from the flow of battle. By spinning the camera and having 4 attacks per "turn" instead of one doesn’t speed up the battle, it just makes it more clusterfucky, if that’s the right word. There’s not enough substance in the combat system.
———- Post added at 01:41 PM ———- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ———-
You have to shift about 7 to 8 times in order to set up a fight and get the enemy staggered. There is no skill or technique involved, just a switch between presets. Even then, in order to keep up Debuffs during an "attack phase" you would need to do a shift that distracts from the flow by literally cutting the camera across the screen, in order for you to switch to that. If you didn’t encounter this or "get" this from playing the game, then you used the basic 4 and one or two additional ones to get you through most fights and didn’t realize that the battle system is incredibly limited and disjointed by forcing to you shift roles midfight, preventing you from fighting while keeping up heals and debuffs/buffs. You don’t NEED to do this but in order to effectively fight, you should be doing this. After 500 fights, you end up saying fuck this, and use 4 paradigms and auto battle. At the end of the game or when you get bored of using 4, you may use 6, but it’s the same preset switching that doesn’t allow you to freely shift during a fight depending on what YOU want to do and instead focuses on a preset combination of moves.
Couldn’t of said it better myself.
To answer Snaek:
-Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn’t mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I’m criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game’s detriment, hampering the overall experience.
-The reason I didn’t like not having all team members at the beginning is because you were really limited by having only two active party members at one time. Though I understand that it was necessary for the story, it still hurts combat. That being said, Dragoncurry hit the nail on the head.
-Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn’t mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I’m criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game’s detriment, hampering the overall experience.
That Mechanic only made sense on the SMT games, because you were controlling Pokemon shit & even though it’s justified (barely).
IT’S STILL FUCKING ANNOYING.
Nothing else to add.
Continue…
are you kidding me? the battle system is way more complex than you make it out to be. using different skills builds the chain gauge faster than doing something like, lightning strike->lightning strike->lightning strike. on the topic of chain gauges and the character lightning, who is more physical than magical, i’m also assuming that you think the strike abilities are always better than the magic spells? this isn’t always the case, magic spells fire off faster than the strike skills, essentially again leading to faster chain gauge building at the expense of less damage. this is an option that auto-battle does not allow. this game has so many subtle details in the mechanics, and if you keep using auto-battle, you won’t get to really experience how great they are.
I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn’t overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you’re responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.
how are you losing a turn exactly? unless you’re shifting with a full meter, which should only be done in-case of timed tactics like the "tortoise" paradigm shift. did you realize that theres a hidden cooldown timer than gives you a full free bar with a paradigm shift? because of this, sometimes it can be advantageous to shift even when the situation doesn’t call for a different team, just to get the free turn.
edit: unless you mean the silliness of the animation pose itself? in which case, i agree it does look silly. but i think there does need to be some kind of "freezing of action" so you can’t just spam paradigm shifts non-stop, whether or not this is done using a pose animation or not.
Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn’t mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I’m criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game’s detriment, hampering the overall experience.
this mechanic is in numerous (team) games, for example a classic fave of mine, (srpg) shining force 2. a more extremely obvious example is chess–do you complain that you lose the game after your king dies? it’s a mechanic in place that requires you to protect your king, or your leader.
No just no… There’s a big difference.
In Chess the formation starts with the King with plenty of protection & the number of units to dispose is much bigger than this game. That’s just for starters.
What if you want to build your leader in the Tank or a Melee Warrior Class?
The game obviously is forbidding you to do it that way if the "PartyLeaderDies=Game Over" is an unavoidable mechanic. Hence it’s a mechanic that doesn’t work properly in that kind of game. Hence, It’s annoying.
What you’re constantly playing an Escort Mission? Everybody knows that kind of thing sucks if it’s treated badly.
There are plenty of other ways to make the game difficult & fair to the player.
Despite the fact that you cannot physically control the other characters, I feel like you still have a lot more say in how your team mates play in FF13, than you do in Mass Effect 2. In FF13, you get to set the skills and the style they will adopt in a number of different configurations. You can see a tanglible difference in what each party member is contributing to a fight at any one time.
In ME2, the characters can be broken down into ‘Do they have Sniper Rifles?’ If they do, they are useful, because all the computer has to do is point and shoot. If its anything else, the character is a waste of time. (Because if they’re just sitting in cover shooting, a Sniper Rifle is better, if they are going forward, they frequently catch themselves on scenery or blunder into enemy fire).
Biotic powers have to used with such finesse in that game (due to shields/armour and the fact that several of the powers are just rubbish anyway), that they are only truly useful when you are using them yourself, or taking time out to aim for your team mates. And even then, the times when that is better than just letting them ripple off their unlimited ammo sniper shots is practically zero.
You want to talk about lame gameplay decisions – try that one on. Your team mates have unlimited ammo, but you don’t. Not very nice of them to hog all the ammo and not give you any!
The fact is, ME2 makes only token nods to your team mates. Its primarily based on how you control the main character, and the best thing your team can do is just stay out of your way and let you do all the work. Because their AI is simply not sophisticated enough is to make best use of their time in a DPS capacity for example.
If ME2 is the future of RPG gameplay, then we’re all in trouble.
FF13’s gameplay is fast, fun, but also rewards strategic thinking and sound execution. If you don’t like it, then fine. But a lot of people do like it (as the recent poll on this forum showed). Even the western reviewers who largely dismissed the game, admitted the gameplay was the best in any JRPG for years.
Square are by far the industry leader in trying to bring JRPG gameplay forward. The Star Ocean games, the FF games from FFX-2 onwards, all have enjoyable combat which is very much not something you associate with JRPGs.
But what do people praise instead? Lost Odyssesy…
Random battles, ‘you go, then I go’ turn system… And this is a game that is often touted as one of the best JRPGs of this gen. I just don’t understand some people.
I’ve never played any of those other games, so I was just responding to the question at hand. If your leader character dies in Mass Effect 2, so what? I’ve never played Mass Effect 2 anyway, so I don’t know much about that game, but to just point out somethings:
1. From what I’ve seen, its more like an action-based RPG, like Kingdom Hearts, so your main character dying might work out better in that game. In a more tactical game like FFXIII, where anyone can be revived, its just a wallbanger.
2. What goes on in that game has no bearing on what’s going on with FFXIII. We are talking about a specific title, and thus, we should stick to that title. Though other RPG’s have problems (like Mass Effect) we should only stick to the subject at hand, and avoid comparisons.
3. A lot of people liked FFXIII (and its battle system), just as many didn’t. I’m just trying to point out why a lot of people didn’t. And to be honest, I thought a lot of professional reviewers went too easy on the game and overlooked or glossed over its faults (IGN giving it a 8.9 for example).
Don’t pay attention to Professional Reviewers, specially IGN, they’re kinda hipocritical & contradictive.
Yeah, they gave it 8.9 & also it’s the game in the 1st place of 2010 dissapointments.
2) Mass Effect 2 was brought up earlier in the thread, in a direct ‘It’s better, because it does things like *this* way). I assumed it was fair game. I understand what you’re saying and I agree, but I’m not going to let people drop in Mass Effect 2 praise without any challenge. There’s already far too much of that going on around the internet. If they believe in the game, they should have no problem defending it.
3) You say ‘just as many didn’t’, but you have no proof of that. One of the most common things you’ll hear about this game is ‘It gets much better from Ch10 onwards’ – because that’s when you finally get the full combat experience. Party/Team Leader selection is unlocked, the enemies becomes stronger and the areas more open to grind and just enjoy combat in.
A lot of people don’t like JRPGs anymore, and will refuse to say a good word about them, because they want to feel they made the right choice, jumping ship to Bioware etc.
The poll here was very limited in numbers of responses, but it suggested to me that a) fans of JRPGs did like the combat, whatever else they felt about the game, but also b) the low number of responses showed a general apathy towards the game.
And that last one is (I would suggest) for reasons other than the combat. Because the fact is, unless you play through to Ch9-10, you haven’t experienced the combat system properly. That you have to wait so long is a problem (the biggest problem in the game IMO), but its not the fault of the actual combat system itself.
And I’m no more a fan of the critics than you are (Top’s example of IGN shows exactly how much you can really trust anything they say). They big things up on release, then forget about them – it’s just the way it works.
Like I’ve said before, critics give the scores they think their viewers want to see, and will tolerate. If they feel the love for a certain game or genre is waning (as in this case), they feel more able to speak their mind. And they did make it plain that they had problems with this game, which in turn makes me more confident than their love for the combat was genuine, than if they had just rubber stamped 9s and 10s over it.
1. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect was mentioned earlier in this discussion. What I said about not bringing any other games into the discussion wasn’t directed at anyone in particular, but everyone in general. I’m seeing these other games being brought in to this, and I feel they only distract from the conversation and its main point. Hence, "Since we’re are talking about X, lets discuss X, not X,Y, and Z."
2. My statement about "just as many people didn’t like FFXIII" was a general statement, and wasn’t specifically referring to this website, or any poll, or any particular number of people; I was simply saying that a lot of people liked it, a lot of people didn’t.
3. Saying it gets better "from ch. 10 onwards" or 20 hours in, or any of those other excuses people commonly use when talking about this game really aren’t points in its favor; in fact, it only strengthens the arguments against it. I did play waaaay past that point, and still felt unmesmerized by the combat. While part of this stems from the game literally wasting hours of play time to "get good", I also feel that the combat system and its problems still play apart in this, thus I, by the time the game opened up a bit, really didn’t enjoy the combat anymore, and since that was the only thing you really do in this game, well, that was it for me.
4. Now, this needs to be addressed. While you can say people just have the hate-on for JRPGs or Final Fantasy, you must not use these subjective views (and the subjective views they inspire) to simply explain the game’s unpopularity that way. Just because some people don’t like JRPGs, does not mean that is the only (or even #1) reason it gets bashed. One must primarily look at the game itself.
.ff13 is so far from traditional "turn-based" combat and for me, totally did redeem the experience. if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you’d see it in a different light. there
My only comment about Mass Effect 2 was,
Also even if you think it’s [Final Fantasy 13] one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting.
My POINT was that FF13’s battle system was not innovative ENOUGH and not groundbreaking ENOUGH given that there was a 6 year gap between FF12 and FF13. The conclusion that I was trying to get at by BRIEFLY mentioning ME2 (which someone else later expanded on for no reason, I had never said a word about party leader dying being a bad thing) was that:
There’s not enough substance in the combat system.
That means that there’s more flashy jumping around than any satisfying real fighting. I didn’t even know how much damage Lightning does half the time because her numbers are mixed with the casters in one giant clusterfuck.
if every game was made the same way, we would all get bored. we would still be stuck with tiny sprites, but due to people trying new things, and pushing the envelope w/ graphics, and various game play ideas, we would not be where we are today in gaming. and as far as somethings not being innovative enough? well, how many times have people bitched about a games combat system being broken, just b/c the company tried to be far to innovative with it?
13 is one of my friends favorite games, not sure if it will be one of mine. i hope i enjoy it though.
i know this wasnt entirely addressed to the OP comment, but ehh, i felt it related to everything else.
The point we were discussing was the battle system. I feel it is entirely fair to say that unless you have played to Ch. 10 and beyond, you cannot give an objective view on the combat, because that is when the battle system is truly unlocked. As I say, the fact you have to wait so long is a problem, but not one with the combat system itself.
I did not say the game was unpopular simply because JRPGs are out of favour, but I maintain it is a strong contributing factor. Perhaps that is a subjective opinion, but so is your opinion that Just as many people hated the combat as loved it, when you have no evidence of that, and are ignoring what critics and the only measure of that statement here suggests.
IMO, people have a lot of love for the FF franchise, but they don’t like JRPGs. Because FF went overground and into the mainstream for FF7 and again for FF10. They bought the game hoping to recapture the feelings they had when the series was huge, and it didn’t do it for them.
Which is disappointing and one of the primary reasons that despite the fact that I like the game, I included it in my ‘Most Disappointing Games’ list of last year. Because whilst I feel it is a game, and is being unfairly maligned on several points (the combat for example), it most certainly was no classic, and not nearly great enough to recapture its fanbase.
But again, that is IMO a seperate issue from the combat, which is what we were discussing. I do not believe in any way, shape or form, that the combat system was the reason people didn’t take to the game. In fact, I think it was hugely beneficial, as it mollified the critics’ otherwise dismissive tones, and kept them interested.
Dragoncurry:
Sorry, if I misread your comments (that’ll teach me not to skim read!) Your comments are indeed more thoughtfully presented than I was giving them credit for – not to mention that I mixed in other people’s comments with your arguments. Hey. it was late, I was tired…
The fact remains though, I am very worried about ME2’s recent mainstream popularity. I continue to view it as an appallingly dumbed down version of ME1’s system, and it has sacrificed far too many RPG features in an attempt to capture cross genre appeal. Making RPGs into 3D shooters isn’t progessive – its assimilation!
But anyway, I was careless when I read your comments. Mea Culpa.
I have played (and finished):
– Final Fantasy – made a perfect save*
– Final Fantasy II – also made a perfect save*
– Final Fantasy III – perfect save* too
– Final Fantasy IV – only missed the damn pink puff tails…
– Final Fantasy V – perfect save*
– Final Fantasy VI – perfect save* still in progress
– Final Fantasy VII – perfect save*
– Final Fantasy VIII – perfect save*
– Final Fantasy IX – perfect save*
– Final Fantasy X – perfect save* (YES, even the 200 bolts in thunder plain…)
– Final Fantasy XII
– Final Fantasy XIII
So I think I can say something about Final Fantasy XIII, I already finished it and I liked it, I can’t say it’s the best Final Fantasy but it’s also not the worst. The story wasn’t so bad as some people say it was, it did have flaws and plot holes, and a lot of it wasn’t explained but the general feel was good.
Since I’ve been a lot tired lately I actually enjoyed the linearity so I didn’t have to bother too much about exploring large multi-branched areas. The lack of diverse side-quests is a problem, the only thing you have is "search for almost hidden treasure" and "hunt special texture change enemies".
The music was great! It doesn’t feel like the old FF, but then again only Nobuo Uematsu could do that… And still, it was great music, I read an interview with the compositor Masashi Hamauzu and he said he had always wanted to make music for a whole FF and hoped he was up for the task, I think he was!
The Crystarium reminded me of FF X grid, it rewards players for winning more fights (so you’ll have more points to get more abilities), they only removed the Str/Mag/etc spheres from the equation. It could have been more "original", but all the other RPGs are also stagnant in this area (most of them anyway).
After a few hours of gameplay the Paradigm shift starts to have a strategic importance, you can actually die in some boss fights if you’re not using the right ones. It adds more strategy to the battles, but it only does so because we are limited to using one character only, and also because some Paradigms behave differently from others (2 COM will never attack the same enemy if there is more then one, RAV will attack the same target always).
The battles were "different", no turns, no MP, only ATB cost, I only used autobattle for healing and deeper into the game I had to do the healing myself due to the crappy A.I., yes it’s not perfect, and sometimes I raged about how unfair it was (after loosing thanks to the gameplay – NOOO!! What are you doing Vanille! You’re supposed to heal ME! If I die it’s GAME OVER, you don’t heal Fang, you HEAL ME DAMNIT!!), but I remember doing the same thing in older FFs fighting other unfair (true, it was the boss that was unfair, not the gameplay) bosses…
But I still had fun doing battles, and I never got tired of the battle theme (Blinded By Light) and that’s a feat. Mad about the limitations, but having fun.
We also have to analyse this further, some of the master minds behind FF are gone from Square, I’m sure Hironobu Sakaguchi would have been important in guiding the project to higher grounds, I know I missed him on FF XII and also Yasumi Matsuno too. So for all it’s worth and considering all this… it could have been a lot worse.
I enjoyed the character design, and their motivations, they feel more like real people (real people that can jump real real high…), even their skin looks real (you can see different shades of skin colour! But that’s graphics, which I don’t think I’ll ever hear someone say: It could look better… thoses crystals look a bit fake…), but I won’t lie, I miss the old character designs, they were more "excentric" in a way.
And I also enjoyed the monster design, I can’t say that for FF XII (seriously? That guy with the sword is supposed to be a Behemoth? Yeah, I know we also have those in this FF, but at least they look like a Behemoth before they get up! …and don’t get me started on the coeurls and malboros).
I did miss a more specific villain, Dysley only appeared, like, 3 times (I know I’m exaggerating), there wasn’t enough time to develop them, characters like Jihl Nabaat or Yaag Rosch or even members of Team Nora seemed too secondary. In the end most of these characters felt unfinished (like AVALANCHE members dying too soon for you to feel anything for them in FF VII).
Final Fantasy XIII is a good game, It’s not a perfect one or a bad game, really, It can’t be a bad game when you already have so many bad games to compare it with! And it will never be the "best game there is" ’cause that game only exists in our mind, and it’s everything we ever wanted 😉
* for me a perfect save means collecting all treasure and having at least 1 of each item (unless the odds are 1%, I ignore it then since I have a life), all summons, defeated all secret bosses, all ultimate weapons, all cards (FF8/FF9), all quests done, probably missing something here but you get the picture. And no, I don’t get my characters to the maximum level, that kills all the challenge, I hate grinding.
When I started the game, it was all good, until I reached the 2 hour mark, when I realized the tutorials got all jumbled up or weren’t properly brought up when you first run into something. For instance, in the very first battle in a large number of FF games, you typically get a small tutorial or moment to familiarize yourself with the game play mechanics (usually a tutorial). Now I’ve played nearly all the FF games out there, but I still like the tutorials in case they add something new in there some where. However when I ran into the first several battles I still had yet to run into a proper tutorial. Next thing I noticed was the auto-battle. Literally, for the first 2 to 5 hours of the game, I played, was nothing but hitting the "x" button with no usage of the directional pad, except outside of battle. As I got further into the game, sure I was finally forced to do something more than physical attacks on a couple occassions, but mostly it was still auto-battle. Unfortunately, I think the AI was too good in some areas when deciding what spells or abilities to use. I didn’t have to plan anything out. I will devle into the pacing of the battles in a moment.
The second part of the gameplay I have some issues with is the paradigm system. When I finally reached the point when I can decide who I want in my party (or when party members kept being switched out on me), I found I have to keep re-setuping up my paradigms to the way I wanted them. The game didn’t save my preferences at all when concerning my paradigms. I spent a decent amount of time setting everything back up again when I shouldn’t have to do that everytime someone leaves or enters the party. Beyond this problem, in-battle switching between paradigms was horrible. As was mentioned in previous posts, the extra posing was unncessary and time consuming. They were looking for fast paced battles, yet everytime you switched paradigms (which for me was quite often in late game battles), it became rather annoying. I also found that if I’m switching paradigms, I can still get hit by the enemy in mid-pose. What the hell is up with that? Getting hit in mid-pose is ridiculous. The time spent on posing, could’ve been used curing an ally or using one of the Sentinals abilities for protection (like Taunt or something). (As a side note, I didn’t even use FF13’s version of the gambit system at all, everything was at default from start to finish and the game was still too easy, with the occasionally high spike in difficulty for no apparent reason).
Next part, the "Espers". What the hell? Did we just enter Transformers or something? Going past that small issue, I had no real use for the Espers at all. This has been a constant problem with me and the entire FF series: the Summons. I hear alot of people say "Oh the summons are awesome and strong and I use them because they look cool!", yet not once have I heard someone legitly say they are a necessary part of their strategy in any late game battle (except for the hard optional bosses in FF7, FF8, FF9, and maybe FFX: i.e. Omega Weapon, Emerald Weapon, Ozma, etc). I never once had to use an Esper in this game because I needed to in order to win (except when its required by the game). What was the point of them if they’re not a necessity for many of the strategies. This also leads me into how the Espers are obtained. Sure, it was believable the first couple times you obtain an Esper, how the Esper comes out when one of the characters is feeling self doubt and depressed over something, but when its a cookie-cutter situation for ALL of the characters, that just becomes ridiculous. Whatever happened to obtaining a summon because you wanted to protect someone, or how about obtaining an Esper because you found it in an old keepsake from, say your father (this could’ve worked for Hope easily). Re-using the same scenes just with different characters was terrible.
This leads me into the story. Plot-holes and unexplained events aside, I did actually enjoy the story to a degree. I felt the story lacked when it came to a villian. Each FF game always had a flapship villian with several smaller villians in supportive roles to the larger. Using the most popular FF games as examples: Sephiroth, Jenova, and Shin-Ra in FF7; Ultimecia, Edea, and Seifer in FF8; Fate, Kuja, and Queen Brahne in FF9; and Sin, Seymour, and the Maesters in FFX. Unfortunately, the only standout-ish villian that I saw that made a very small impact on the story was the final boss, which we battle 3 different times. I don’t even register anyone else as villians in the entire FF13 game. The story itself, while the base of it was strong, the characters were weak. Sazh is the only character I actually enjoyed and had fun controlling because he was more down-to-earth.
Overall, I have alot of problems with the game, some personal, alot not, however these are just the main points of the game that I feel led to the disappointment. The game has so much potentially, but the writing and bad choices in gameplay design just led the game to a more average rating (if not lower in some books). I liked the music and the graphics are awesome, but if there’s not strong gameplay or story to complete the circle, the experience is going to be that much weaker.
Personally, I like Barthandelus as a villain too, but he only really comes into his own in the final 3 chapters. He’s extremely good in the cutscenes surrounding the final battle, particularly when he merges with Orphan. The other villains didn’t get much screen time, and I think killing off Ji’hil Na’baat so quickly and easily robbed Sazh of his main storyline.
It seemed like a bit of a MGS2 ‘bait and switch’ (given that Nabaat featured in the trailers and had generated a lot of ‘love to hate her’ interest prior to release.
And IMO, the game has no unexplained events or plot holes. The story is extremely solid, easily one of the better FF stories IMO. And I don’t accept that the characters are poor in this game. I don’t think they are among the best of the best in the FF series, but I like them more than FFX’s party for example (Auron excepted).
I also can’t see what plot holes there are. It all seems to make sense, although the storytelling sometimes makes it a little difficult to follow (and the game is infamous for keeping chunks of important information exclusively in the Datalog).
I think the game has confounded the critics, to a large degree. They seem to be running this way and that on it. Some praised it on release, then trashed it later when they saw what public reaction was (IGN), some trashed it on release, then softened as the year went on (Edge gave it 5/10, but later admitted the game was probably the game of 2010 that would most divide opinion, as there were good aspects to it).
And the fact is, the game has been a huge smash hit in Japan. Their critics and public adored it, and their demand for a sequel is the whole reason FF13-2 is being made.
But it will obviously take a much better JRPG to interest western audiences en mass again. The only way I can see that JRPGs (and FF) can challenge WRPGs supremacy is to do something off the charts huge. Super complex, hugely ambitious in size and scope.
I think SE could do a lot worse than consult with Obsidian. It seems a perfect match – SE need help developing characters and worlds that appeal to western audiences, Obsidian need bigger budgets and quality control staff to iron out bugs and glitches.
Obisidian are IMO the best RPG writers around, SE make some of the most flawlessly presented and financed games. So if Obsidian and SE’s collaboration on Dungeon Siege 3 goes well… fingers crossed.
A FF made by both of them, could be the west/east RPG crossover of the century.
And IMO, the game has no unexplained events or plot holes. The story is extremely solid, easily one of the better FF stories IMO. And I don’t accept that the characters are poor in this game. I don’t think they are among the best of the best in the FF series, but I like them more than FFX’s party for example (Auron excepted).
That’s your opinion and you are entitled to that. IMO none of the cast in FFXIII had any appeal to me whatsoever, they just seemed bland and generic to me even moreso than FFX, X-2, XII’s cast of characters. I couldn’t form any sort of attachment to them or feel their need to do what they have to.
I think the game has confounded the critics, to a large degree. They seem to be running this way and that on it. Some praised it on release, then trashed it later when they saw what public reaction was (IGN), some trashed it on release, then softened as the year went on (Edge gave it 5/10, but later admitted the game was probably the game of 2010 that would most divide opinion, as there were good aspects to it).
This proves my point about these so called ‘unbiased’ critics/reviewers. None of them seem to really know what game they are reviewing and give it whatever score, similar to other reviewers who put the work in to reviewing the game, and ad lib their review. In all honesty, there’s only one way to fully find out if you’ll like the game or not: Try it yourself. Go and rent it before buying, play it, then formulate your own opinion of it. However, too many of the mindless masses are too stupid (or don’t have the brains etc) to do this and just swallow any old tripe they read.
And the fact is, the game has been a huge smash hit in Japan. Their critics and public adored it, and their demand for a sequel is the whole reason FF13-2 is being made.
Just because it was a huge hit in Japan, doesn’t mean anything. Quote sales numbers etc, whatever. It all comes down to the individual playing the game, as to whether they like it/love it/hate it/whatever.
Obisidian are IMO the best RPG writers around, SE make some of the most flawlessly presented and financed games. So if Obsidian and SE’s collaboration on Dungeon Siege 3 goes well… fingers crossed.
A FF made by both of them, could be the west/east RPG crossover of the century.
Considering Obsidian’s track record, and I have to disagree. I can name two examples of games Obsidian had their hands on, which on the individual level were quite good (and I did enjoy them), to the masses they weren’t as huge in success as was hoped. Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords. Personally I love this game and still play it at least once a year, however the bugs, cut plot elements etc, made this game not as enjoyable as the previous. Alpha Protocol. This game had potential to be a great game… on paper. But how it was executed in development/production (game system etc) it was lacking. Also, being compared by many as a ‘poor mans Metal Gear Solid’, hurt it as well.
I doubt if SE and Obsidian joined forces to make a FF, that it’d be the ‘west/east RPG crossover of the century’ as there are many other developers which are making JRPG’s/WRPG’s, which IMO that is, are far superior to what the FF franchise has become now. Personally, I find the though of another ‘-2’ FF game to be just a attempt to curry favor with those of the masses who think SE do no wrong. FFXIV is proof that SE is failing in some regards as to what the fans themselves want.
Hell yes, I’m excited for that.
I also enjoyed this game myself. I replay both KotOR 1 & 2 often.
I take great exception to Seymour, Sin and the Maesters being held up as examples of great villains! But I won’t argue that for the most part, FF13 lacks strong enemies (but then so do many games these days).
I never meant to say Seymour, Sin and the Maesters were good villians. My point was they were there and made a significant impact on the story that was given to us. To me in FF13, I didn’t know who the hell was a villian until I saw Bathandelus (or whatever the hell his name was) twice, then thrice. He was the only villian I can actually recall that even tried to make an impact on the story. Lack of a strong main villian and several supportive villians spell doom for a story, no matter how well it was written. Can’t have a story without some sort of anatgonist.
A very similar thing happens in FF12. Both Ashe and Vayne both want to fight to achieve victory, but its never practical or allowable because of political constraints and realities. Everyone keeps compromising, enemies frequently turn out to be quite reasonable and willing to make deals etc, when they want nothing less than to brand them as enemies and defeat them.
These later FF games have shown that real life is never so simple as ‘The Goodies versus the Baddies’. Arcadia isn’t just an evil empire in FF12, the Sanctum of FF13 is not an inherently evil institution etc.
You’re not wrong that genre stories have traditonally been motivated by strong antagonists, but that kind of storytelling has fallen out of favour these days.
These days, when considering the classic of classics, Star Wars, you’re liable to hear people commenting ‘But what about all the ordinary people working on the Death Star? The ones who didn’t man the big world destroying laser? Why did they have to be murdered by the ‘heroic’ rebels?
And Smarty has it exactly – if Obsidian had more cash on tap, their games wouldn’t be as buggy, simple as that. People seriously, seriously need to stop blaming Obsidian for KOTOR 2’s rushed ending. It was in no way their fault – Lucasarts demanded the game be brought out before it was finished. That has absolutely nothing to do with Obsidian, yet they always cop the blame for it.
Their subsequent games have been riddlied with glitches, but again, its simply a matter of their ambition and the scope of games they make, outstripping their resources in terms of staff and equipment. With SE bankrolling them, that wouldn’t be an issue anymore.
And again, I point to games like KOTOR 2 and Fallout: New Vegas to show the quality of their writers. Because there are a hell of a lot of people who *love* those games (me included) and for games with as many bugs and gliches to have so many admirers, that just shows how great the writing, world building, characters and atmosphere is in Obsidian’s games.
That, in itself, is probably half the problem people have with the story. But, then again, it could be said that Shin-Ra, Rufus, or even the Maesters of FFX weren’t inherently evil. Political undertones and such have always played a role in the Final Fantasy series. However there has always been a fine balance or amount of it that appears in the game. There was too much of it in FF13, that it lost it’s identity half way through the game. It kept switching masks too many times that it was hard to even maintain one set villian.
If you have too many moral dilemmas and greyed villians that aren’t good nor evil, then in the end, the final boss you face at the end game (in my opinion) is totally pointless. There is no reason for me to fight a villian if I agree with his views, which makes the final boss fight a major contridiction.
I know that sounds a bit confusing so I hope you guys understand what I meant 🙂
And I also don’t accept the argument that Shinra and Sephiroth were not evil. Shinra are about as black as they come, commiting all kinds of atrocities purely to make profit. Sephiroth may have a sob story past, but the fact is he was trying to summon a meteor to wipe out all life on the planet. That’s pretty evil in anyone’s book, surely?
You also reduce Atlus’ storytelling in an extremely unfair way. It is hardly a case of good versus evil, seeing as how your own party members are frequently pretty evil themselves! Nocturne has no canon path to it, and you’re free to side with factions that espouse brutal warfare, eternal tranquility, isolation or even utter annihiliation of all existence!
The final boss is not evil at all, it is merely a force of creation. You fight it for the right to mold the new reality in the image you desire. Its not about Good versus Evil unless you want it to be (i.e you can make choices that identify your character as a good person and oppose the more obviously evil factions). But that’s just one example – you can be Good, evil or Neutral.
Altus succeed because they have an interesting style, and their games are dark and utterly crazy, but in good ways. They also appeal more obviously to western audiences, because their games tend to be more actiony than standard JRPGs.
There is still a place for Good versus Evil, but you have to do it near perfectly these days to avoid people dismissing it out of hand as tired, seen it all before, childish etc (Mass Effect 1 is probably the best Good versus Evil story of recent times, but even that is just Babyon 5 ‘An ancient Evil returns’ again). Pretty much every RPG made in the last 10 years west and east has been treated this way by critics and often the public too.
And yet when companies stray from this, people still aren’t satisfied. FF12, FF13, Dragon Age 2 etc were all pillioried by the masses for not having clear cut baddies and epic action packed stories.
A compromise must be struck. You do need baddies, you do need opposition, but you also can’t just have people who are just being evil because they want ultimate power or stuff like that, anymore. It just seems like an incredibly old hat and childishly simplistic way to portray a world and its characters.
I mean, its the same with movies, right? It may have been acceptable in the 80’s for a blockbuster movie to be ‘A really big guy in a vest, shoots armies of guys to death, whilst standing in front of an exploding helicopter – The Movie!’
But all but the most undemanding viewers need something a little more involved these days! Doesn’t mean we don’t want exploding helicopters and all that, just that its no longer enough for the film to be just about that.
I don’t ever recall saying that Shin-Ra wasn’t evil, nor do I recall ever saying Sephiroth wasn’t either. That brings me back to the original point that FF7 had clear-cut villians.
I ask you this: When you face the final boss, how grandiose do you believe it to be? Even better, when you fight the boss, do you expect to be fighting someone of evil intent? Why fight the boss at all if the boss isn’t evil? That’s the point I’m getting at. To have a final boss at all, the boss needs to be evil in order to justify the fight. Why would you fight someone who is a good guy? Just makes no sense. To fight a boss, you need a reason, a want, and an attachment to do so. This is what made bosses great. However, the reason, the want, and/or the attachment cannot be forced or else it’ll turn out like what FF13 has. It felt like the writer(s) realized they had no real antagonist until halfway through the story because of the constant switching between characters and no clear cut story, so they slapped Barthandules into the role.
I think what’s going on here is we’re talking about two different things that, while it may seem like they’re the same things, they aren’t. You’re talking about moral dilemmas and the like. I’m just talking about clear antagonists that make a significant impact on the story (I’m not really talking about good vs evil, I was just using it as an example). I agree there needs to be all the undertones and sub-plots that make stories engaging, but at the same time the game has to stick within the realm that it is claiming to be in.
Moving on, I’d argue that all a game really needs is a hook that makes you keep playing. If that’s interesting enemies, then so be it. But as ddrMaxman points out, it could simply be the gameplay that hooks you in, or maybe the world itself. There are plenty of great RPGs out there that have extremely poor villains. Can you even remember the villain from Oblivion, wasn’t the Archdemon of DAO just a pretty ordinary looking dragon etc?
And like I said, SMT Nocturne doesn’t have an antagonist at the end. Kagutsuchi has no animosity towards you (or anyone), nor you towards it. But it is a grand looking enemy and a momentous showdown, because you’re fighting for the future of existence. So a boss doesn’t have to be evil to justify the fight. The Arishok is IMO the best antagonist in DA2, and he isn’t evil at all. He’s simply a character with a clear and believable motivation, whose obligations bring him into conflict with Hawke.
I’d say that FF13 certainly has an evil final boss, but I wouldn’t say he was the primary reason I kept playing that game. I became invested in the characters and the gameplay, and was interested in seeing how the story unfolded. I was pleasantly surprised at the end however, to find that I did really want to kill Barthendelus though. It did matter to me in a way that killing Kuja and Jecht etc didn’t.
Does he have the show stopping pulling power of a Sephiroth? Well no, but let’s not forget that FF7 is a game that would be in the top 3 RPGs of a great many gamers around the world, even today. Just because a game isn’t as good as one that is considered amongst the very best ever made, is no crime.
I’m not arguing that games don’t need antagonists or opposing forces. As I mentioned, I found FFX to be suffocatingly boring due to a lack of either. But games that are more heavily reliant on story need to focus on more than just Good versus Evil. Because we really seen it all before, and life isn’t that simple. So as games start to look more real, they need stories that feel more real.
I agree Vrykolas. It comes down to personal want in a game. To me, previous FFs set standards for the next one in the series. Each numbered FF game needs to be better than the predecessor. Arguably, nothing has been able to top FF7 in overall scope of enjoyability. Since the dawn of the Playstation era (discounting the FFs before FF7), FF9 is the only one to get close enough to FF7. However, this is all based on personal opinion.
In the end, I found no real enjoyment (outside of Sazh) in FF13. It felt like a chore to make it through the game and I have no desire to go back and do all the quests after the game is over.
The only time you ever have a single character is in a couple of Eidolon fights (which are heavily scripted and not really proper fights) and a couple of fights where you are supposed to use Eidolons just to show them off (Snow in Palum-Polum and Lightning on the Grand Prix circuit etc).
And even if you did have just one character, Lightning is probably the best choice you could have anyway. She’s the fastest attacking Commando, and can easily take down waves of people all by herself.
I think that what Derimu meant was that the game makes you use all the characters at some point in the story and you have no choice but to use them, and not single character fights.
This is not a WRPG, its a JRPG. And in JRPGs, a specific story is being told in a specific way. That means all the characters contribute, not just the ones you like the most. JRPGs need more of this, not less IMO.
Don’t think FF XIII’s story was the best, but I did liked it.
And for the first half of the game I didn’t have to spend time deciding which character to use.
Sony console hardware sucks, really. I’m on my third PS2, after 2/3 years it stops reading games.
Except for the PSX, it was their first, so they had to do reliable hardware to build up a fan base.
I love the PSX and PS2 games, but I hate the console (after my experience with PS2 I obviously didn’t buy a PS3).
-Too linear in the first half or so of the game. Then, you get to Gran Pulse and it’s more open, but possibly TOO open.
-The characters were boring when you compare them to previous characters of the series.
-Story was lacking. See "characters" above.
-Nothing really felt Final Fantasy-ish about the game.
-The battle system was a mess. I know they wanted to go fast-paced, as opposed to the slower battle systems of previous games, but this was too fast-paced, in my opinion.
-It just seems like they focused too much on making the game look pretty and didn’t give enough focus on other parts.
XII was better in every way, with the exception of graphics maybe, but XII’s graphics were still really good.
I think they did a good job with FFXIII- it just seems to me that many people expect the moon and aren’t content with the earth beneath their feet.
As far as battle systems go, the only type I particularly like is Real Time fighting. If a game doesn’t have that then I don’t really care what kind of battle system there is.
I read an article today on this very topic: Charlie Brooker: Hollywood shuns intelligent entertainment. The games industry doesn’t. Guess who’s winning? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/23/gaming-makes-hollywood-look-embarrassing)
I don’t think it’s a bad thing to expect gaming to evolve as an art form. In fact, expecting as much is inevitable. What’s maybe unfair is that they delivered a Final Fantasy game, and we’ve moved on. We’ve played other, more sophisticated games and don’t want to go back to the cryptic, scattered, derivative themes and plots of the old FF games, especially if many of the new gameplay elements (such as the battle system) are boring. Visuals can’t carry a game alone.
They didn’t fail with the story. The story wasn’t bad. The world just wasn’t fleshed out and I felt no connection to the people of Cocoon or Gran Pulse. Direct comparison: Spira. By the end of the game, even if you hated it, you could not deny that you had a connection with the people of Spira, and you knew their motivations, their various factions and why they were important to the story. Final Fantasy 13 did not capture that. That reason was why many of the previous RPGs were so strong (FF4,6,7,9,10).
We’ve played other, more sophisticated games
Such as???
Such as???
Depends on the individual in question. Speaking for myself, I found BioWare’s offerings to be far better than some of the FF series (FFX, X-2, XII and XIII), but that’s just me. Knights of the Old Republic for one, even though it’s a old game now, is still superior to FFXIII, just my opinion that’s all. Hell… even the old AD&D PC games (like Treasures of the Savage Frontier, Curse of the Azure Bonds or the three Dragonlance games) or Sierra’s Quest for Glory series are superior to FFXIII (Especially the Quest for Glory games… they are just that damn good :D).
There is no doubt.
So what would you all have done differently?
The only thing I would have done differently is 1) increase the depth of the Cocoon populace (as I responded to Vrykolas in the free-roam thread and 2) made more clear cut villains. A lot of the side villains were also lacking in depth, even though they looked cool (for example, the officer dude when Snow was making a ice sculpture using Shiva in the town square area thing).
And as far as I’m concerned Star Wars spin off games have never interested me in the slightest. The films were fine but I find the games pathetic. Just my opinion.
Then you never played the Knights of the Old Republic games, only the ones set in the movie era. Your loss.
Hmmm…hate to break your little bubble there, but I have played the ”wonder” that is the Knights of the Old Republic. I found it all very dull. My only loss is the time I wasted on playing it.
For a guy who hates spin-offs, I’m surprised you went for KOTOR. Your loss I suppose.
lol this is probably the first time in my life that i’ve heard the KOTOR game termed "pathetic." It’s amazing.
Stupendous.
For a guy who hates spin-offs, I’m surprised you went for KOTOR. Your loss I suppose.
Then you obviously don’t enjoy space opera or sci fi games, as the majority of people I know who have played Knights of the Old Republic agree that it’s worthy of being a Game of the Year (which it was).
I do hate spin offs, I didn’t lie when I said that. However, considering that the mainstream Star Wars games (Jedi Academy, Jedi Knight II, Dark Forces etc) didn’t earn much praise from me, except for X-Wing and TIE Fighter (I have a fondness for space combat simulators. If you haven’t played them, I pity you… I really do). Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, being set 4,000 years before the movies and during a era I personally found to be far more enjoyable in both story and character wise and not just from the KotOR games, but also the comics and backstory for that era. Exar Kun, Mandalore, Ulic Qel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider, Revan, The Exile, Zayne Carrick etc… all of them I find it easier to form a attachment with them, than with Anakin/Luke/Cade Skywalker etc.
Like Dragoncurry said, I never called it a wonder. KotOR is a better game than FFXIII.
However, calling it bad or worse FF ever is pure prejudice against some good qualities the game has, like the battle system.
I can see where Alm???r is coming from. Pure negativity gets annoying after a while. This is a forum for Final Fantasy so there should be a general liking for the titles. I’m not saying that it is necessary to love every single one but the critism towards certain select games is very negative. If I were trying to create something, reading that sort of critism would crush me flat.
It is all up to personal opinion but as for me, I would view the FF titles as being some of the best RPGs, deserving of a place next to Suikoden II and the Zelda series. There aren’t that many games who go through the same lengths that Final Fantasy does. FF XIII was a good game- not the best, but certainly not the worst.
As for the Battle System, I’m with Alm???r on that one: I frankly couldn’t care less.
What irritates me is that half of the world doesn’t even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.
What irritates me is that half of the world doesn’t even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.
However, there are those who do have their own valid reasons as to why they hate this game. Myself, I tried to play it 3 times… the longest only being about 5 hours into it and I can honestly say I was bored to tears (and saying the game picks up after Chapter 11… in a 13 chapter game isn’t a good thing, it’s poor game design). Lacklustre characters, uninteresting plot, mediocre music and poor battle system. The lack of any NPC villages/towns like in earlier FF’s irritated me as well, though that’s only a minor quipe really. The opening scene was more or less ripped out of FFVII, and with the character designer being told to make a female Cloud Strife, that’s exactly what we got in Lightning.
There’s one review which sums up almost 100% perfectly my own opinion about this game, and here’s the link:
Zero Punctuation – Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion it’s true, so while there are people who think FFXIII is the best ever… remember, there are those who despise it (some even more than FFVII).
Yeah… there are some out there who do hate it way more than FFVII. Myself, what I hated the most about FFXIII… was paying over $100 AUSD for the special edition and thinking it was going to be good… when it wasn’t (for me at least). That’s another reason I have negative feelings towards FFXIII…
Chapter 11 and afterwards has a lot more plot and content than pre-Chapter 11.
I don’t consider playing through 11 boring chapters to be fun… or to have the game pick up after 11 either.
There’s one review which sums up almost 100% perfectly my own opinion about this game, and here’s the link:
Zero Punctuation – Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion it’s true, so while there are people who think FFXIII is the best ever… remember, there are those who despise it (some even more than FFVII).
It’s true. I wasn’t referring to everyone being biased about the game. I was talking about the other half of the gaming community who has a bad habit having no credentials in what they say (ie: Judging the game before they play, basing their own false opinions after reading other’s opinion). But considering you played the game already, your opinion is valid. ;D. Obviously the game does have its up and down.
One thing that bothers me though is why does people like FFVII (being that it’s already overrated) so much? I played the game twice but still don’t see how it’s so different and majorly more fascinating than some of the other Final Fantasies.
For me it just struck a chord…know what I mean? I started with Crisis Core so I guess I was introduced to it with a different main character. Zack was a very engaging playable character that you really root for. I goy attached to the supporting characters (ie. Aerith, Sephiroth, Tifa, etc) because I loved the game from the get go (mostly due to Zack’s upbeat nature). Zack is completely different to Cloud, so I got a very different outlook.
There was also a different message behind the FFVII compilation- a message I feel strongly about. So between the characters and message I found the storyline fascinating.
As for being overrated- it most deffinitely is. But you won’t find me going ON and On about it. Besides, I’ve got a life to lead. Can’t say much for those weirdo fanatics.
FFVII helped to bring RPG’s out from the niche market they were predominantly in and into the mainstream market. At the time, everyone HAD to play it etc etc… and while I admit it was the second game I ever owned for my PSX (DON’T ASK ME WHAT THE FIRST WAS!!!), it was in no means the best. True it had a good story and great music… but unfortunately, along with it came a lot of newbies to the series, who started to revere it as the second coming of Jesus Christ. Like Neo Xzhan said in another post here "See I look at it like religion. It’s not God I hate, it’s his fanclub", it was the fanatical fans who raved on and on and on about it on online forums/magazines etc which put me off.
When Hironobu Sakaguchi, the Father of Final Fantasy, was fired from the board of Directors and subsequently quit SE, it wasn’t long after that that talk of the compilation of FFVII began. SE needed money to recoup their losses from Sakaguchi’s failed final project "The Spirits Within", and whoring out the FFVII name, characters and story allowed them to get back some of them. FFVII as it was, was a good game and didn’t need a sequel/prequel/movie made… all of that was done for two reasons imo. The aforementioned need to rebuild their finances after that failure and to appease the fanatical fan’s screaming for more.
Now, sadly… these fanatics are still around… only they’ve grown worse in their worship of FFVII. Case in point, when I picked up my copy of Dragon Age II Signature Edition earlier this year, I was approached by another person in that store and told that the game I just purchased had a weak story, apathetical characters, terrible music and that the battle system didn’t work. I was then recommended by this person to get the one game which will continue to surpass any other RPG, nay, any other game period. The game this misenthrope recommended to me: Final Fantasy VII. Spouting how great etc it is… he refused to let me pass until he finished his spiel. Once he was done, I told that I have played the FF series, and only play the 11th installment on a regular basis… which set him off again. Berating and belittling my choice in FF’s… though, he did say that FFX, FFXII and FFXIII are ‘almost’ as good as FFVII, and he then ‘ordered’ me to get rid of Dragon Age II and FFXI and get the ‘great ones’. It was then I told him I’ve been playing the FF series since the NES… and while VII was good, I prefer VIII due to sentimental reasons, but consider IV and VI to be the particular ‘great ones’… the discussion ended with this guy throwing a punch at me, but hitting a police officer who was there purchasing another game instead. Heh… good times ensued.
However, this thread isn’t about FFVII etc…
Oh and by the way. what was the first game you owned for the PSX?
😀
… and NO! I’m not telling the first game I got on my PSX.
On second thoughts, maybe you better had keep it to yourself.
Hey, the PS2 game by Atari was good!
Sorry Revan but you really shouldn’t let others dictate how you feel about something. If they want to lose the head over it- fine let them. But don’t let that spoil it for you. You liked it for what it was- now let’s move on.
The negativity gets me down sometimes because I know that the very people who are flaming the fanboys/girls actually like the game for what it was- a game, nothing more, nothing less. LOL, they probably apprieciate it more than the fanatics do! But unlike the stupid yabos people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line.
When people like things a lot it’s quite a put-off, especially to hear a shitload of people raving on and on about one thing and just that one thing. He’s pretty much just sick of hearing it i bet, which is a legitimate thing to think. Pretty much the reason I can’t stand FPSes.
What irritates me is that half of the world doesn’t even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.
What irritates me is when people say RPG is supposed to be a story and then defend Final Fantasy 13’s story. It was poorly paced, and the environments were beautiful but dead. I’m sorry, mad people gave their reasons and you chose to ignore the few that weren’t like "this game is linear" or "this battle system sucks." In the end, it’s a game that takes 11 chapters to pick up, and overall, even if it’s battle system was a godsend, it wouldn’t be able to carry the makeshift world on it’s back to success sorry.
The negativity gets me down sometimes because I know that the very people who are flaming the fanboys/girls actually like the game for what it was- a game, nothing more, nothing less. LOL, they probably apprieciate it more than the fanatics do! But unlike the stupid yabos people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line.
It shouldn’t get you down at all. I love FF7, but I don’t like it when idiots defend my game. Similarly, I love Pokemon, and when some idiot froths at my foot about it, I’m going to be like…stop frothing at my fucking foot, the game isn’t that amazing. Granted I played it for 80 hours in the last two weeks, but really…stop.
I’m good friends with Revan and had no intention of insulting him- or NeoZhan for that matter.
It shouldn’t get you down at all. I love FF7, but I don’t like it when idiots defend my game. Similarly, I love Pokemon, and when some idiot froths at my foot about it, I’m going to be like…stop frothing at my fucking foot, the game isn’t that amazing. Granted I played it for 80 hours in the last two weeks, but really…stop.
You know, that was very well said. Couldn’t have put it better. However just because the idiot is frothing at your feet over it doesn’t mean you should start disliking the game, right?
Whilst its nice to see someone else who is getting some enjoyment out of present day FF (I think 12 and 13 are the best installments in a long, long, long time), does it really do the series any good if people don’t speak their mind about the games?
I mean, you were saying before that because the site is at least in name, a Final Fantasy site, we should really all be being positive about the series. Now again, for me that’s not really a problem, as I’ve liked the recent games. But surely, people should be allowed to air their views if they don’t like them?
The lack of truly positive rebuttals to the general feeling of disatisfaction, speaks to FF13’s failure to recapture the series’ core supporters (at least not en masse anyway). I liked the game, but did I *love* it… Not really, no. And whilst I am probably one of the more outspoken supporters of the modern installments, I can’t say that FF13 has me fired up and ready to go out there and really champion the series to people.
Its hard to be an activist for a series, when the best you can say is ‘Its pretty good, and better than people say’. I believe that statement to be true about FF13, but I’m going to say that people who don’t play it are missing out on a life changingly amazing gaming experience. Its a decent JRPG, a good Final Fantasy title, but I think any reasonably objective fan would have to concede, it could have been much better.
I think FF13 is perhaps being treated slightly unfairly, but I think FF12 was treated far worse – in that I think FF12 is a genuinely great game, that is criminally undervalued. 13 is good, but its no 7 or 12.
This is just a really awkward time for Final Fantasy. But we can’t manufacture victories that don’t exist – the fact is, if the series wants to be considered great again, it has to earn it. If they do come up with a great game, then series fans have to do their part and make sensible cases for why people should check it out.
But if the games aren’t good enough for that, we should be able to admit that, but still flag up what we think SE are doing right. Because contrary to what a lot of people are saying, I think SE is still producing good games – it just isn’t producing many great games at the moment.
QFT! Kudos for that buddy!
‘Pure negativity gets annoying after a while. This is a forum for Final Fantasy so there should be a general liking for the titles. I’m not saying that it is necessary to love every single one, but the criticism towards certain select games is very negative. If I were trying to create something, reading that sort of criticism would crush me flat.’
Its that ‘there should be a general liking for the titles’ bit that particularly gets me. I don’t want the site to be ‘For Final Fantasy fans only – everyone else can go somewhere else’. That’s obviously exaggerating and misrepresenting what he said, but these things can be a slippery slope.
If people are just insulting the games and have weak arguments, then they should be called on it. But I think the site should be willing to hear from people who may not even like any of the titles, as long as they make good cases for what they say, and aren’t just being willfully disruptive to push people’s buttons etc.
Basically, I’m just saying that whilst some people are having a go for the sake of it, others are making good points and should be heard. Because like I say, even though I like Ff12 and 13, I think the series is very far from being in robust health, at least in terms of perception of the series, popularity, core support etc.
I don’t think we should be retreating to a ‘let’s just discuss the good points, because that’s less stressful’ standpoint. I think fans owe it to themselves and the series to always try and keep an honest view about where the series actually stands, at any given time.
The way I see it, Square Enix is a corporation that exists for making capital by putting out installments in the gaming industry. That???s all. They use the tropes and clich???s of japanese anime, JRPGs, etc. to appeal to fans of the genre. What???s interesting to me is that I don???t see them as ???creating??? in the same sense that you do. Maybe that???s just because I???m a cynical bastard, but to me, it???s the means to an end (Although I do believe that the company once genuinely wanted to put out great games without consideration of profit).
According to Wikipedia, ???As of May 2010, the game shipped 5.5 million copies worldwide, becoming the fastest-selling title in the history of the series.??? And from the demo of FFXIII-2 at E3 2011, it looks like they???re just repeating their mistake, but in fact trying to capitalize even more on their previous successes by bringing moogles in. Think about it. I think that if anything, Square-Enix needs to be woken up from their delusion of what they think qualifies as a good game, just because they hold the rights to the FF franchise. And as long as we, the gamers, keep buying their material and then get frustrated when people call for better quality games, the quality of games will only suffer. S-E???s stubbornness to admit a decline in gaming quality, if that???s what it is, is a product of figures.
You know that one of the main reason why there are many hates for the game is because people accuse of it’s linear style besides likes and dislikes about the battle system. I think people are being a bit too comparing with the game. I mean, it’s an RPG… It’s suppose to be a story. We all play for the sole purpose of knowing the story.
The problem here is that FF13 is the thirteenth installment of a franchise. It???s no longer possible to not compare it to the previous installments. When a new Final Fantasy title is revealed, people get fired up over it because they draw comparisons and hold expectations based on previous releases. The Final Fantasy series (excluding the MMOs of 11 and 14) has always made a certain kind of game that appeal to a certain kind of gamer, namely, one who likes JRPGs. Although I agree with the fundamental point of your statement, that each game should be considered a microcosm in and of itself, that???s not how gamers think, and for a number of reasons. With each FF title, Square/Square-Enix wants to create something new, but draw from influence of previously made titles, as well as influences from other series.
What irritates me is that half of the world doesn’t even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.
I agree with the point that if you don???t play the game, you can???t impose an accurate judgment on it. That???s true with anything: you can???t review a book by just reading the back cover. HOWEVER, there is a reason for reviews and online discussion boards. When someone says that the game is too linear, they are criticizing a certain aspect that has become an expectation of the installments in the FF franchise.
Having played 7, 8, 9, 10, 10-2, and 12, I think that I am at least reasonably qualified to impose my knowledge of the previous titles to understand what the critic is trying to say about FFXIII and what gamers have come to expect from JRPGs. I can apply the criticism of linearity to the previous titles that I enjoyed; I can imagine FFVII and VIII without the element of freedom. I can also draw the comparison to FFX, which I found, in retrospect, to be very linear (at least, until the end). And through this, I can formulate an anticipation of particular aspects of the gameplay. That does not qualify as the same thing as playing the game, of course, but it does tell you something about the gameplay, and when the frequent criticsm of FFXIII???s linearity contrasts with the open-world feel that was praised from previous installments and has come to be an expectation from the series, it contributes to an inevitable dislike of the game.
Its that ‘there should be a general liking for the titles’ bit that particularly gets me. I don’t want the site to be ‘For Final Fantasy fans only – everyone else can go somewhere else’. That’s obviously exaggerating and misrepresenting what he said, but these things can be a slippery slope.
If people are just insulting the games and have weak arguments, then they should be called on it. But I think the site should be willing to hear from people who may not even like any of the titles, as long as they make good cases for what they say, and aren’t just being willfully disruptive to push people’s buttons etc.
Basically, I’m just saying that whilst some people are having a go for the sake of it, others are making good points and should be heard. Because like I say, even though I like Ff12 and 13, I think the series is very far from being in robust health, at least in terms of perception of the series, popularity, core support etc.
I don’t think we should be retreating to a ‘let’s just discuss the good points, because that’s less stressful’ standpoint. I think fans owe it to themselves and the series to always try and keep an honest view about where the series actually stands, at any given time.
I totally agree, but I would mention two things. First of all, the negative criticism needs to be constructive. Just saying ???It???s too linear??? is only partly helpful. Critics should give suggestions for improvement considering the plot, location, etc. The integration of certain elements with the constants (plot, etc.) is the difficult part. It???s easy to criticize when we don???t think about integration.
Secondly, I think that S-E is being stubborn. They need to be receptive to gamers??? complaints, rather than dismissive. And we gamers should also be receptive. Where many people find fault, there is, in fact, fault in one form or another. I???m not saying that every installment has to appeal to every kind of gamer–that???s an impossible task. But when the game divides gamers who previously agreed on most of the previous installments, there is room for improvement. Both we and S-E have to be open in acknowledging the problems and take the matters to heart. And all the negative feedback is good in that it reveals to the gaming community and the gaming franchises what our values are, and that we will voice our opinions when we agree in a common fault. But if all S-E cares about is sales and we continue to buy their games, no matter what quality they are, there will never be improvement.
I don’t think people give SE enough credit, because I think they do listen (even when they shouldn’t) and they try very hard. Ian Livingstone recently commented that far from throwing their weight around and adopting a ‘we know best’ attitude after merging with his company, their staff are always asking questions, eager to learn how they can appeal to western audiences more.
SE bent over backwards to address the (very unwise) comments that were made about FF12. Fans complained of slow pace, too open a world in which the story got lost for long periods, characters that could all be customised so much that they could become basically the same etc etc).
And so they cut out the free roaming, kept the focus on the main plot, sped the action up, split characters up so you had to use all of them and each got plenty of screen time, made each character play distinctively because of their available paradigms, did away with pointless loot etc etc.
But now they get hit with complaints about linearity, over simplified combat, not enough build up in the story etc etc…
IMO, they got it spot on with FF12, the change in directors being the only problem and one that could not be helped. And because the feedback was so negative about that game (from fans only, as FF12 was regarded warmly by some of the harshest critics out there), that they made lots of stylistic changes in FF13 that simply didn’t need to be made.
SE have been by far the company that put in the most effort to tackling the issues of gameplay in JRPGs. Look outside SE and you see Namco and Mistwalker etc content to use decades old systems, with very little attention given to them. But SE have in games like Star Ocean 3+4, FF10-2, 12 and 13 etc, shown they are heedful of the need to update combat systems and make them more dynamic.
I think the core issue (and I’ve said it many times) is that people just don’t like JRPGs at the moment. And that’s because its been a long time since there has been a unifying title in the vein of FF7 or KOTOR (for WRPGs) that return their respective genres to the limelight.
And that’s why I think SE actually need to listen less to fans (who opinions are reactive to the games they are seeing), and instead focus on finding someone with the spark of genius. These people are out there (people like Suda 51 and SWERY are good examples). They need to take a change on someone like that. Because only a truly fresh and inspired game will break them out of this slump.
At least, that’s why I think, anyway.
Yes this is indeed part of what I meant by that statement on page 5.
the negative criticism needs to be constructive. Just saying “It’s too linear” is only partly helpful. Critics should give suggestions for improvement considering the plot, location, etc. The integration of certain elements with the constants (plot, etc.) is the difficult part. It’s easy to criticize when we don’t think about integration.
And this is the other part of what I ment.
Being a blind fanatic who sees no fault is just as annoying as one who criticises to the extreme.
I recall Alm???r asking DragonCurry what he would have done differently (page 4-5). Asking those kind of questions is more contructive and far more usefull than having X amount of people defending the existance of the title and having Y amount of people flamming them. Topics like these do often turn out this way, acheiving nothing in the end.
does it really do the series any good if people don’t speak their mind about the games?
As for people speaking their minds: I personnally have no intention of stoping them. Yes I may become caustic towards someone if I believe that they are just being antagonistic for the hell of it, and yes I may even fool around a bit, but I would not want to stop anyone explaining their points and views.
Square-Enix needs to be woken up from their delusion of what they think qualifies as a good game, just because they hold the rights to the FF franchise.
Well, people are still buying them. Unless the population of gamers has grown increasingly S-T-U-P-I-D during the last few years then SE must be doing something right in someone’s opinion. 5.5 million copies sure is a lot, and they certainly didn’t make all those copies for the goodness of their health so they must be selling. Unless of course you’re of the belief that there are 5.5 mentally challenged people out there.
(if that is what you believe then so be it- but I sincerely doubt it myself)
And so they cut out the free roaming, kept the focus on the main plot, sped the action up, split characters up so you had to use all of them and each got plenty of screen time, made each character play distinctively because of their available paradigms, did away with pointless loot etc etc.
But now they get hit with complaints about linearity, over simplified combat, not enough build up in the story etc etc…
Got any links to prove that?
Look at the feedback of any reviewer of FFXIII and compare the game with XII. They are the complete opposite.
I recall Alm???r asking DragonCurry what he would have done differently (page 4-5). Asking those kind of questions is more contructive and far more usefull than having X amount of people defending the existance of the title and having Y amount of people flamming them. Topics like these do often turn out this way, acheiving nothing in the end.
Sadly though… the FF series has spawned numerous fanatics, just look at the FFVII Compilation for example and how the rabid fanbase is for them or even the PS2 generation of FF’s. Each individual is different, but once they meet others who share their views, they flock together and think that if they get more with the same opinion on their side, that they’ll get it across and hope that they’ll change other people’s opinions.
As for people speaking their minds: I personnally have no intention of stoping them. Yes I may become caustic towards someone if I believe that they are just being antagonistic for the hell of it, and yes I may even fool around a bit, but I would not want to stop anyone explaining their points and views.
Sad but true… best to let the fools spout their own twisted gospel and ignore them. That’s the worst thing you can do to them imo.
Well, people are still buying them. Unless the population of gamers has grown increasingly S-T-U-P-I-D during the last few years then SE must be doing something right in someone’s opinion. 5.5 million copies sure is a lot, and they certainly didn’t make all those copies for the goodness of their health so they must be selling. Unless of course you’re of the belief that there are 5.5 mentally challenged people out there.
(if that is what you believe then so be it- but I sincerely doubt it myself)
I think it can also be attributed to a influx in newcomers to the series, who don’t know any better. The ones who think that graphics are more important than anything else. True 5.5 million copies is a lot… but what no one takes into account, are most probably the amount of copies returned to their stores of purchase. Still, gamers are quite diverse lot.
Look at the feedback of any reviewer of FFXIII and compare the game with XII. They are the complete opposite.
Remember though topopoz, reviewers generally fall into two categories: Unbiased and Biased. IIRC, there were some reviewers who gave FFXIII glowing and almost perfect scores… however later they did change their minds. I don’t really think a person can truly trust a reviewer’s opinion regardless of who the reviewer is. Only way a gamer can truly find out if the game in question, is one that they’ll enjoy is to play it themselves.
Or do you consider FF13 to be free roaming? The one thing that everyone agrees about FF13 is that it is linear, with cutscenes every 5 minutes. If that isn’t keeping the focus on the story, then what is? The game is divided into 13 Chapters, which each have their own specific plot point, which plays out to a conclusion before the game moves on.
And the action is sped up – the move to real time combat, with no seperate ‘battle screen’ in FF12 was hugely controversial. This game restores it, along with the fact you heal instantly after each fight, that there is no MP for spells, a much slimmed down Gambit style system, only a bare bones inventory system, auto battle command etc etc.
Fans were very vocal in their criticisms when FF12 came out. I remember Edge magazine did an article revisting FF12 fairly recently, going to pains to point out that it is by far the best installment in years in their opinion, and that many fans did the series no favours by criticising it so heavily, whilst lauding emo bore-fests like FF10.
And I agree with them – I’m a much bigger fan of FF13 than most people on here, but I still think many of the decisions taken in that game’s development, represent a step back from FF12.
Anyway, Square do seem to be trying. They putting up some of the cash for Deus Ex: Revolution, aren’t they? I’m sure they’re involved somehow. And they worked with Obsidian recently on Dungeon Siege 3, so they’re obviously trying to keep abreast of developments in RPGs.
We’ll have to judge them on merit of course, but these things can take time. How long did it take EA to remember how to make good games again? You couldn’t pay me to play the games they were making 5 years ago, but they’re one of my favourite companies again, now.
I don’t give them credit for being accurate. But it’s more based on the more common complains from both types of reviewes. Even the internet personalities, such as Zero Punctuation and the TGWTG people.
They complained about the linearity, the battle system and the hard to follow storyline, art design and annoying characters.
XII on the counterpart has no linearity, a overly flexible Battle system, even though the art design for certain characters like Vaan is ugly, the others worked perfectly IMO as the characters some of them are annoying and some of them are not. The story still is hard to follow I’ll give you that. And that’s the main reason people blindly say that the storyline of XII sucks or is another SW ripoff.
But Highlighting the common things. XIII and XII are opposites and that’s the main hint that S-E did listened to the fans.
More like a Shovel I would say XD
Intimidated by a female Cloud Strife?!? Not bloody likely… and for the record I don’t find her intimidating at all, if anything I feel sorry for her as she’s going to typecast always as a female Cloud Strife (just like how Mark ‘The Force waved bye-bye to any good gigs I could’ve gotten, like what Harrison Ford got’ Hamill, who shall forever be remembered as Luke Skywalker(and to a lesser extent as Colonel Christopher Blair in the Wing Commander games and the voice of The Joker)).
Lightning had no chance to break the mold from whence she was created, as SE ‘wanted’ the female lead to be modern representation of FFVII’s protaganist.
Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?
It’s common knowledge that the lead character designer for FFXIII (Tetsura Nomura) was told by Motomu Toriyama to make Lightning, more or less a female Cloud Strife. Taken from Wikipedia:
His guideline to character designer Tetsuya Nomura was to make her "strong and beautiful", "someone like a female version of Cloud from FFVII".
On that same page, even Videogamer.com compared Lightning to Cloud:
simply referred to Lightning as the female version of the Final Fantasy VII lead character Cloud Strife
So no Almir, I did not ‘pluck that randomly from my head’. Don’t believe me? Here’s the damn link: Lightning (Final Fantasy) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(Final_Fantasy)).
FFXIII Interview: Nomura, Kitase, Hashimoto and Toriyama: News from 1UP.com (http://www.1up.com/news/ffxiii-interview)
Whether Lighting to intended to be Cloud MkII, doesn’t get in the way of the fact that the characters have significant differences. They have to address many of the same issues that all heroes in RPGs do (learning who they really are, questioning what they think they know, learning to trust others instead of themselves etc etc). But there are differences too – they are by no means just the same character with a different gender.
Cloud is an arrogant, mercenary for hire. Lightning is a member of the security forces, and whilst annoyed at other team member’s lack of strength and endurance, she never ever brags about having it herself. As far as I remember, she never once during the game boasts about anything at all.
She is working to make a life for herself, but primarily for her sister – Cloud is only interested in making money for himself. Its a major sore point between him and Barret, seeing as how Cloud is perfectly happy to accept money that Barret was saving for his daughter’s future.
Cloud’s story leads him to realise he was never able to be the man he wanted to be, when he set out to join SOLDIER. He wasn’t good enough, and is only strong now, because of the genetic mods that Professor Hojo gave him. Lightning however *was* good enough on her own merit to join the corps, and was due for promotion. Until the purge, her life was more or less sorted.
They both have to faces a crisis of self worth, find the strength to go on against impossible odds – but that’s hardly unique to them, is it? Join the queue with all the rest of the heroes!
You know, between myself and CC this site would never have to look for donations again!
Not exactly. Doesn’t really matter either way.
Yeah, s’right! I am legend! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tK0e4DT8uE) No uptightness from me! I leave that to Wedge :p
That’s your opinion (as well as it seems for Vrykolas, CC and Galaroval), however I don’t see it that way. True they treated their allies differently and had different views on conflict and responsibility, however the similarities to both Cloud and Lightning are there. When you get right down to the core of both characters, they are more or less the same.
For more information play the game to the end this time before posting.
After having tried to play FFXIII three times (with the last getting up to Chapter Nine for the record) and being unable to due to the fact the game has many flaws (Now I don’t agree with many reviewers at all… however happen I agree completely with what Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw (which is rare for me to agree with ANY reviewer at all, as I prefer to play the game in question myself and form my own opinion of it, instead of reading/listening to a reviewers biased/unbiased opinion) said in his review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII). I have no intention of playing a 13 chapter game for however long it takes to get to the 11th Chapter where the story supposedly ‘picks up’, just so I can post in this thread. I have played FFXIII and don’t like it one bit, and I have my opinion on the game and it’s characters. As this is a forum where one can post their opinions, I will post my opinion about this game. Don’t like that? Too damn bad Almir. Think "I’m taking this to heart"? Not really but whatever. Think what you all want to think, doesn’t matter to me.
Y’know, it’s funny. But… I don’t think that Alm???r had any objection at all about you expressing your opinion on this matter. Neither do I or anyone else. So no need to be defensive about it. Chill.
But you’re overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity. My point is that to not play a game to its full and proper ending and then to log on to a forum where these games are discussed and proceed to shoot the whole game out of the air and watch it crash and burn around other people’s feet is not going to make you very popular on said forum. Maybe that dosn’t matter to you. My advice: play FF13…to the end…and then you can draw your conclusions after that. It might just get better after Chapter 11, you never know.
Oh, and a word of advice…try not to let Alm???r get under your skin, ok? You might look bad.
Quality post. You should post here more often. Might knock some sense into a dying thread.
Think "I’m taking this to heart"?
Revan, maybe you should sit down before you hurt yourself.
And get off your high horse, I don’t recall accusing you of ‘taking it to heart’ at all. Read back a post or two and get your facts right before you start slinging your weight around.
Wha’s the problem man? Lighten up for god’s sake.
Darkest Gunblade has the right of it. Conceed the point.
Besides, Lightning’s development on a personal level is pretty much wrapped up by the end of Parumpolum in Chapter… 6, i think. The latter half of the game emphasises the team, rather than individual characters. I agree that there are many issues you need to play the whole game to have a proper opinion about, but for this specific detail (how similar Lightning and Cloud are), that only really requires you to see how she is during the early chapters.
Anyway, comparing the two because they are solemn and ‘action speaks louder than words’ characters is unsound, IMO. They share that trait with dozens of equally laconic JRPG main heroes. Squall from FF8, Kaim Argonar from Lost Odyssey, to name but two (though there are legions more). And I would also argue that Lightning is more like Squall than Cloud.
Cloud’s macho posturing is completely unlike Lightning. He enjoys irritating people like Barret and he likes how strong he is, Lightning just gets on with things and doesn’t care what other people think about her.
Like Darkest Gunblade previously stated:
But you’re overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity.
Sine Rev hasn’t taken the time to do this (he has already admitted himself that he has never finished the game), I can’t see how he could give a full educated opinion.
Y’know, it’s funny. But… I don’t think that Alm???r had any objection at all about you expressing your opinion on this matter. Neither do I or anyone else. So no need to be defensive about it. Chill.
If I wanted to be defensive, crude or downright offensive in my posts etc about this, I’d do more than what I’ve done so far. Point of fact, that this whole incident happened due to a post Almir made on the previous page:
Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?
That last part wasn’t called for, yet he felt the need to end his post with a insult. Having been a member here for as long as I have, seeing posts like the above does annoy me as it wasn’t needed.
But you’re overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity. My point is that to not play a game to its full and proper ending and then to log on to a forum where these games are discussed and proceed to shoot the whole game out of the air and watch it crash and burn around other people’s feet is not going to make you very popular on said forum. Maybe that dosn’t matter to you.
Once again, I’ve seen posts similar to the above here over the years, stating the same as you have (more or less), yet that doesn’t change the fact that there are others who disagree with your opinion and they are entitled to voice it however they see fit.
My advice: play FF13…to the end…and then you can draw your conclusions after that. It might just get better after Chapter 11, you never know.
No. I’ve spent $110AUSD for my first copy (which was loaned to a family member and returned damaged, hence the need to purchase a second copy), $80AUSD for the second copy (That was traded in at the time towards purchasing another game) and finally $10AUSD for a brand new and sealed copy, which after playing up to Chapter 9, I couldn’t play anymore due to reasons I’ve stated before in this thread.
I’ve played every previous FF (FFI on the NES; FFIV, V, VI on the SNES; and so on) and they’ve all managed to garner my interest from the get go. FFXII, while having a battle system which was reminiscent of FFXI’s own battle system and having it’s story (with obvious references) to Star Wars, was still able to get me to play it at least twice.
XIII has failed three times to ‘hook my interest’, and while I haven’t finished the game, I HAVE played enough of it to form my own opinion of it and therefore am allowed to express.
Oh, and a word of advice…try not to let Alm???r get under your skin, ok? You might look bad.
If Almir was getting under my skin, I’d be more vocal and vehement in my responses towards him. I haven’t done so… yet and to be perfectly honest, I don’t care what he thinks or anyone else. If my opinion of XIII is one you (or anyone else) doesn’t like/agree with, that’s fine. But when someone decides to make a attack or reference against myself, my friends here or with one of my posts, I will respond.
Revan, maybe you should sit down before you hurt yourself.
And get off your high horse, I don’t recall accusing you of ‘taking it to heart’ at all. Read back a post or two and get your facts right before you start slinging your weight around.
Firstly Almir, being a smart alec isn’t going to endear yourself to anyone. Secondly, and I feel am I partly responsible for you and Galaroval’s misunderstanding of the last few sentences in my post, in particular this:
Think "I’m taking this to heart"?
That was a play on your own words in post #153 on this page:
Certainly. I only wanted to clearify the issue, (if one would grace it with such a term), after all I am allowed to disagree. It doesn’t mean I’m taking it to heart, merely expressing a view. I personally wouldn’t take anything Revan (or anyone else) said to heart, I’m not that sensitive.
With your posting specifically my name in that context, why shouldn’t I use that? You’ve made remarks on the previous pages in response to my posts here, always in contradictory or negative tones. True, while they are your own opinion that’s fine. However if my opinion is in contrast against yours, I am allowed to state as such.
So ‘get off your own high horse’ and ‘ get your facts right before you start slinging your weight around’.
Wha’s the problem man? Lighten up for god’s sake.
I was just responding in a similar tone to Almir’s posts, as he has to mine earlier in this thread. This is like a similar incident which occurred in another thread in the "Role Playing Games" subforum: Anyone play Final Fantasy XIV?. (Thread 82462) topopoz made a response in that thread, after another member attempted what Almir is trying to do.
In DH defense:
You take DH as a troll? You didn’t see anything yet… Stay a little more & then you will learn to difference who are the trolls & who aren’t…
If DH is a troll then 99.9% of the members here are trolls too. Including myself of course.
In the meantime I’ll enjoy watching this
All of you may think I’m trolling or whatever… I have not yet begun to do so. If I did, like I said above in response to Darkest Gunblade: If I wanted to be defensive, crude or downright offensive in my posts etc about this, I’d do more than what I’ve done so far.
Darkest Gunblade has the right of it. Conceed the point.
I won’t as I do not agree with it, as Vrykolas stated:
Steady on, now. Rev’s entitled to his opinion, same as we are. He hasn’t got to concede anything, if he’s not convinced.
Just because I don’t happen to agree with the general consensus that XIII is the ‘greatest FF eva!!’, does that give Almir or anyone else (See what I did there?) the right to respond negatively to another’s post? This whole ‘incident’ started from Almir’s post on Page 6 regarding facts regarding the ‘theory’ towards the similarities between Lightning and Cloud Strife. IF he had worded his post differently like say "Do you have any proof to support that?" instead of the snide comment, then this wouldn’t of happened.
Sine Rev hasn’t taken the time to do this (he has already admitted himself that he has never finished the game), I can’t see how he could give a full educated opinion.
So, would you apply that to those who reviewed FFXIII and gave it glowing reviews? Or just to the negative ones. I based my opinion on FFXIII not just on what I’ve played of it, but also in comparison with the other games in the series. FFXIII failed to get me interested in it enough to finish it, whereas the other FF’s were able to do so. I won’t go into details regarding what I (personal opinion here) consider to be flaws in FFXIII, as not only have I posted them earlier in this thread (Look for the posts yourselves, I’m not going to provide the links) but I have also added a link to a review by Zero Punctuation, which I happen to agree with completely (A rarity for me to agree with anything in a review from any game magazine/website).
This last part is not directed solely at you either Almir, but to anyone else who may have something to say in glowing terms for FFXIII. We are all entitled to our own opinions, who are you to criticize a person for having a objecting opinion to your own or others?
Now that this thread has been derailed enough, it’s time it was returned back to the topic at hand.
In addition to the Lightning/Cloud Comparison…
Maybe the original Cloud conceived by Sakaguchi and Nomura was one thing.
But people did forgot what S-E did to that character with the rest of the compliation. So that’s another point to take in consideration when it comes to compare these both characters.
Maybe S-E is referencing as Lightining having the essence of the Cloud developed through all the compilation, not just the original title.
Not necesarily a female reversion, but a female character that captures that same essence.
Anyway, if you want carry on with the discussion go on. But I just wanted to add these things to take in consideration while developing your opinions people.
And to the recent Incident… Just WTF?. I’m going to defend Revan here again, because the "plucked out of your head" comment was unrequited for the discussion.
But that’s just a jumping off point – where the story and characters developed after that initial concept is unique to FF13. It isn’t just a slavishly word for word, scene for scene, character for character copy. I think they just tried to identify some of the key things that drew people to FF7’s story and atmosphere, and tried to tap into that where they could.
And at the risk of simply repeating what I said about completing the game, for this specific issue (comparisons of Cloud and Lightning), you don’t need to play the whole game, because Lightning’s character is ‘finished’ in terms of her character development by the mid point. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, or that she doesn ‘t do anything later on, just that you have all you need to know to understand who the character is and what she is like by that point.
Her involvement in the later chapters sees her become the party’s Sergeant Major. She doesn’t really make the decisions on what they should do (Snow and Hope handle that), her role being more to just keep the party moving along once the decision about what to do next has been made. She keeps them focused on the task at hand, and leads the charge into combat.
So she goes from being a loner on a kind of death wish kamikaze run, to regaining her former status as a professional soldier. But like I say, that transformation is complete by the start of the Palamecia, really.
Firstly Almir, being a smart alec isn’t going to endear yourself to anyone.
To quote your own words Revan:
If I wanted to be defensive, crude or downright offensive in my posts etc about this, I’d do more than what I’ve done so far.
As for why I said this:
pluck that randomly from your head?
It was in response to the many times that people complain or make statements about games without backing it up with facts or stating what they would find to be a better alternative to what they perceive to be the problem.
In terms of the statement being insulting: I would say that you are being sensitive. It isn’t what one would call majorly offensive. It certainly doesn’t warrent that much fuss. I’ve seen other people here say much worse than that and get away with it.
If you have any more problems with what I’ve said/ what I may say in the future, just PM me instead of derailing a topic.
You’ve said what you had to say and I’ve had mine. As far as I’m concerned, this ‘recent incident’ is at a close.
Now for a small observation.
So, would you apply that to those who reviewed FFXIII and gave it glowing reviews?
Darkest Gunblade’s point was this:
My advice: play FF13…to the end…and then you can draw your conclusions after that.
If you give something a glowing review then that would generally imply that you like it? If you like something enough to give it a good review then why wouldn’t you have FINISHED the game?
Just because I haven’t finished playing FFXIII all the way to the end, doesn’t mean that my own observation and opinion of it, isn’t worthwhile. Follow that logic, then all game reviewers for magazines and websites can’t provide a adequate review of any game at all (Which I do tend to believe but whatever). All of my statements about why I dislike this game are from my own observations and from what I’ve experienced myself. Why should I play a game which I don’t like, all the way to the end, just to say "Why yes, I’ve finished the game and I hated every minute of it?" Have better things to spend my time and money on thank you.
In terms of the statement being insulting: I would say that you are being sensitive. It isn’t what one would call majorly offensive. It certainly doesn’t warrent that much fuss. I’ve seen other people here say much worse than that and get away with it.
You’ve been negative to almost every one of my posts in this thread… and as a accumulative effect, has annoyed me. Hence my response so far.
If you have any more problems with what I’ve said/ what I may say in the future, just PM me instead of derailing a topic.
Not going to bother PMing you. Also, it wasn’t just myself who derailed this thread, though I do take a share in responsibility for it doing so. You must accept some of the blame as well Almir.
You’ve said what you had to say and I’ve had mine. As far as I’m concerned, this ‘recent incident’ is at a close.
Fine with me.
If you give something a glowing review then that would generally imply that you like it? If you like something enough to give it a good review then why wouldn’t you have FINISHED the game?
Because the majority of game reviewers don’t have the time to devote to playing a game for 100% completetion due to deadlines and other games to go through. To expect one to do so, is foolish. However you are right, if a person does like a game enough to give it a ‘glowing review’ then they should’ve finished it. I doubt though that many professional reviewers (who review games for a living) have the time, energy or patience to play a game they are reviewing all the way to the end, when they undoubtedly have other commitments to attend to. On the otherhand though, if a person doesn’t like the game, do you truly expect them to play it all the way to the end, hating it while they are playing and then expect them to say it’s a great game? Of course not.
Everyone has their own opinion about every game/movie/book/whatever… if everyone’s opinion was the same, then the world would be a boring place not worthy to be sucking air (Like what happened to the planet Miranda in Serenity). In closing this whole ‘incident’… you Almir are entitled to your opinion, I’m entitled to mine and everyone else who either responded in this thread or on this whole forum, have their own opinion and yes they are not all going to be the same. While I may disagree with your opinion (or others), that’s your choice and believe it or not, I respect that. Just don’t talk down to others who disagree with you.
rotfl.
I agree that a person shouldn’t have to play a game to completion before they can say whether they like it or not.
They can play it for a few minutes and in my opinion that’s enough.
I haven’t played FFXII to the end but I feel I know enough about it to say what I think about it.
shrugs.
As for FFXIII I feel it’s deficient as have been the last two numbered FF games.
FFXIII is deficient because it’s too linear, no towns, no npc interaction, inability for players to control multiple characters during battles, the chrystarium or whatever it’s called doesn’t match the traditional experience points or jobs methods used in previous games.I don’t like the system FFXIII uses.
Of course if others like the game that’s fine with me.I hope others respect people who like the game.Likewise I hope people who dislike it will respect those who feel differently.
smiles and walks away…
That’s fine, but if future FF games restore all those utterly lifeless rural hamlets, with peaceful country music that drives you completely *insane*, then I’ll be holding guys like you responsible, Wolf!
(stands aside and waves him on, fixed grin in place).
I jest of course, but seriously, whilst I accept many of the criticisms that people have of FF13 (it is indeed far too linear), the lack of towns is like manna from heaven. No talking to endless numbers of NPCs who have absolutely nothing of importance to say, but who you feel obliged to speak to, just in case they decide to give you an Ultima Blade or something…
smiles and walks away…
If that doesn’t diffuse the situation, nothing will. LOL.
I ROFL’d 😀 You’re all right in some regard; just have fun here, guys. We don’t gotta be at each other’s throats 😉
That’s fine, but if future FF games restore all those utterly lifeless rural hamlets, with peaceful country music that drives you completely *insane*, then I’ll be holding guys like you responsible, Wolf!
(stands aside and waves him on, fixed grin in place).
I jest of course, but seriously, whilst I accept many of the criticisms that people have of FF13 (it is indeed far too linear), the lack of towns is like manna from heaven. No talking to endless numbers of NPCs who have absolutely nothing of importance to say, but who you feel obliged to speak to, just in case they decide to give you an Ultima Blade or something…
Ok to blame me.I blame myself for a lot more important things, mistakes and failures I have made than just the status of a japanese video game series.
well lets see….
FFXIII-2 will have towns because the fans complained about a lack of towns…hmmm..and FFXIII-2 will have npcs because, again the fans complained about a lack of npcs.
I guess someone at Square decided to listen to the fans’ criticisms.
The lack of towns must not have been like manna from heaven but more like anthrax arriving in letters with spore dust leaking from the corners.
rotfl…
Not worth arguing about the games.
I do feel that the FF games have deteriorated since Sakaguichi departed and since Square became Square-Enix.Whether that merely coincidence or a causal relationship kind of thing I don’t know.
Maybe someone who worked for Square could give their opinion. Since I didn’t/don’t I am unsure what the cause is.
Let’s just hope the future games are an improvement.
I know all this. It may seem that I don’t, but I do. I’m actually pretty easy going regarding other people’s opinions.
You’ve been negative to almost every one of my posts in this thread… and as a accumulative effect, has annoyed me. Hence my response so far.
As Raven in Tekken says: It’s just business. Don’t take it personally.
You like KOTOR, I think it’s just another pathetic spinoff. You hate FFXIII, I on the other hand thought it was good (only good- I can put things into perspective). Looking at it that way there is little wonder that we were negative to each others view points.
Not going to bother PMing you.
Oh, goodie.
You must accept some of the blame as well Almir.
Fine.
Of course if others like the game that’s fine with me.I hope others respect people who like the game.Likewise I hope people who dislike it will respect those who feel differently.
smiles and walks away…
I’m cool with that. In fact I don’t really mind if people disagree with my view. I just say my opinions in my way. If other people find that insulting, I apologise but I’m just putting across my view. I have no intention of disrespecting others.
Let’s just hope the future games are an improvement.
It certainly wouldn’t hurt.
I think you’re taking my comments much more seriously than they were intended. My comments were merely intended to show my frustration that Square might take (what I consider to be) a massively regressive step and put towns and NPCs with nothing to say, back into their games.
Don’t get wrong, I’m all for NPCs that do add something – WRPGs for example, only let you talk to NPCs who have something relevant to plot, side quests, game history etc etc to say. JRPGs have often allowed you to talk to absolutely everyone, of which hardly any had anything of substance to say.
But on the subject of improvement… well, we have to agree to disagree, because as I’ve said, I’m fine with the recent installments.
As to Square listening to fan’s complaints – well as I’ve said, that’s how most of the mechanics and style of FF13 came about, directly contrasting the equally criticised elements of FF12. It isn’t an approach that works. Fans are never a reliable or useful source of inspiration. They will never reach any consensus, but everyone will still claim that their suggestions are ‘accepted by everyone who isn’t stupid’ as the obvious things to do.
And besides, the game sold massively, and the home audience (i.e Japanese) fans and critics both loved the game to pieces. The sequel is being made because of popular demand, so why would they feel the need to make sweeping changes? Western gamers aren’t into JRPGs at the moment, so unless the game is legitimately the greatest JRPG ever, it isn’t going to get much lasting traction at the moment.
I’ve read a lot of articles concerning the development of FF XIII, and I don’t remember anything regarding SE addressing the comments about FF XII. That is why I asked for links, otherwise I’ll disregard what you call common sense as mere guess. These days I notice a lot of people making stuff up based on their guesses.
(There is also the fact that I’m absolutely hopeless with computers and couldn’t post a link if my life depended on it – see my lack of an Avatar; it isn’t because I don’t believe in them…)
You were able to join this forum going through all that registration and account activation, but you don’t know how to post a link?…Funny.
Every time you press reply or reply with quote you should see this icon http://www.calvarychapelonline.com/images/hyperlinkIcon.gif above the text you input. Press it and a pop up will show up asking you to enter the the URL. All you gotta do is go to the web page which link you want to add to your post copy it’s link and paste it there.
I know next to nothing of how PCs or any other console works. I am content just to use them, I don’t care about how they actually work. So long as I know enough to do what I want to do on them, that’s good enough for me.
And not this again… just look at the evidence! If they weren’t addressing fan and critic’s concerns about FF12, it’s one hell of a coincidence that FF13 does the exact opposite to FF12 in every single department! To go from the most free roaming FF in years (if indeed its not in fact the most free roaming full stop), to the most linear is a leap from one end of the spectrum to the other.
You call it guesswork, I call it analysis of the available facts. I prefer to make my own appraisal of what is going on in a game and how it works, rather than have dubiously qualified magazine hacks and disengenous developers do it for me. I have a background in critical analysis of literature, film, television and theatre. Video games are a newer art form, but they are no different IMO.
Its common knowledge that the Japs are struggling against the West in all forms of games at the moment. The old joke they used to make was ‘All games made in the West are s**t.’ But they aren’t saying that now, not because they necessarily have any more respect for our games (big western franchises continue to perform poorly in Japan), but because their products no longer sell in Europe and the US, at least not in the volume they used to, and not to the critical raves they used to get.
So they’re trying harder to appeal to the west in their games now, but their understanding of what we like in our games and how we like them to look, is very dodgy (just as we look at the hardcore Jap games and think ‘What on *Earth* is all this?’ I still think that Square is by far the most forward looking of the current JRPG producing developers, as the systems and general presentation of games by Namco, Nippon Ichi, Mistwalker etc are all looking well out of date IMO.
Look, I trust my abilities as a critical thinker, and I don’t feel I need industry experts putting similar thoughts down in black and white to ‘vindicate’ me. But people all have their own opinions, so I happily listen to them and respect their right to hold them (and if they say something I agree with, especially if I hadn’t thought of it, I say so).
Oh, I just noticed you included how to post links in your post (my eyes must have temporarily blinded me earlier, out of terror at how technical it all looked). But cheers for that anyway, I’ll make it into this century one day…
… and yet you were readily against my own opinon.
As Raven in Tekken says: It’s just business. Don’t take it personally.
When someone references my posts or refers to something I say, I do take it personally, especially if the person in question is either quoting me out of text or having shots at me. Guess I’m just funny that way.
You like KOTOR, I think it’s just another pathetic spinoff. You hate FFXIII, I on the other hand thought it was good (only good- I can put things into perspective). Looking at it that way there is little wonder that we were negative to each others view points.
I don’t consider KotOR a spinoff in similar comparison to say… the Compilation of FFVII/Ivalice Collection etc. KotOR was a original idea set far apart (chronologically speaking) from the era in Star Wars everyone knows. X-Wing, TIE Fighter, Dark Forces etc are spinoffs… as they are set during the same time period and/or have the same characters in them. KotOR isn’t set in the same time period as Luke, Leia, Vader or the others and has a original cast of characters.
Look at the scores between the two of them as well…
Computer and Video Games gave KotOR 9.0/10, whereas they gave FFXIII 9.2/10. Eurogamer gave KotOR 9/10 and for FFXIII 8/10. IGN gave KotOR 9.5/10 and FFXIII 8.9/10. On sites like Gamerankings and Metacritic gave both a slightly different score… Gamerankings gave KotOR 93.25%, FFXIII 85.17% for PS3 and 82.18% for Xbox 360. Metacritic, KotOR 93/100 for PC and 94/100 for Xbox, and for FFXIII 83/100 for PS3 and 82/100 for Xbox 360. Now, granted I don’t pay much attention to ‘official’ reviews… I tend to listen more to either other gamers or friends who’ve played the game (whether to 100% completion or not).
KotOR has seen success as the game of the year from many sources including IGN, Computer Gaming World, PC Gamer, GMR Magazine, The Game Developers Choice Awards, Xbox Magazine, and G4. According to the review aggregator Metacritic the PC version received an average score of 93 based on 33 reviews. Interactive Achievement Awards awarded it for Best Story and Best Character Development. IGN gave KotOR additional awards in Best Sound (Xbox category), Best Story (PC category), Xbox RPG Game of the Year 2003, PC RPG Game of the Year 2003, Xbox Game of the Year 2003, PC Game of the Year 2003, and Overall Game of the Year 2003 across all platforms. In 2007, IGN listed it at #27 on its list of the Top 100 Games of All-Time. In 2010, IGN placed the game at #3 on its Best games of the Decade (2000–2009), beaten by Shadow of the Colossus and Half Life 2.
At the 2004 Game Developers Choice Awards, HK-47 won the category of "Original Game Character of the Year". In 2007, the plot twist in KotOR was ranked number two in Game Informer’s list of the top ten video game plot twists of all time and number 10 on Screwattack’s "Top 10 OMGWTF Moments". The game is also part of The Xbox Platinum Series/Classics for sales in excess of 1 million units. The Los Angeles Times listed Knights of the Old Republic as one of the most influential works of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. In 2010, Game Informer named the game the 54th best game on their Top 200 Games of All Time list.
FFXIII meanwhile has received only one award nomination for best RPG of the year award nomination at the Spike Video Game Awards. Don’t get me wrong, FFXIII has received praise for it’s battle system, the pre rendered animation and soundtrack. However, the negatives towards FFXIII, far outweigh it’s positives. The linear nature of the game, especially in the first ten chapters on Cocoon, an issue which many felt was compounded by the large reduction of towns and interaction with non-player characters. Edge magazine (known for their editorial stances, industry contacts, yearly awards etc) gave FFXIII a score of 5/10, primarily due to it’s linear nature.
For sources about the above, go check out wikipedia for confirmation.
Oh, goodie.
Sarcasm… the last resort of the weak minded.
It was accesible enough to attract big audiences, made good use of the much beloved Star Wars franchise, and was complex enough to not instantly alienate the hardcore PC crowd. Good story and voice acting was the icing on the cake. And FF7 was similarly a breakout title for JRPGs.
The difference years on, is that the format of KOTOR (or WRPG’s in general) is still considered viable. JRPGs have not weathered so well, so whilst FF13 may be a good JRPG, but it is still, when you get right down to it, a JRPG, and they are not popular now. WRPGs meanwhile have only increased in popularity.
Both KOTOR and FF7 are held in high regard by their respective fans and by critics in general. FF13 is not a breakout title, and in that regard, it can be compared to titles like Jade Empire and Dragon Age 2 – titles that if critics are pressed, they will concede there are merits to, but which they don’t really have that much interest in.
It was a movie quote. You’ll have to excuse me, I am prone to such flights of fancy. The situation seemed to fit the quotation like a glove.
Your impressive display of knowledge concerning KOTOR was indeed inspiring, however I wasn’t really that interested enough to read through it all. Please forgive me but I’m sure that you understand, having the same opinion on FFXIII as I do on KOTOR.
… and yet you were readily against my own opinon.
Readily is not how I would describe it. It just turns out that I disagree with your opinions. It happens. I wouldn’t waste my time directly attacking everything you say. That’s why I said "Don’t take it personally". I’ve nothing against you as a person (how could I? I don’t even know you) or even your manner, I merely disagree with your sentiment. I apologise if this frustrates you but it just seems to be the case.
KOTOR is a PATHETIC SPINOFF????
From my point of view. I’ve never played such drivel in my life. However, it does have some redeeming factors:
– It’s a good cure for insomnia
– If ever one gets bored of losing in Tekken, they would only have to think of KOTOR and find a new well of resolve to keep their Tekken fighters kicking. They would do anything rather than go back to such monotony.
– It helps actors dramatise a tragedy. One would only have to think of this game to bring tears to their eyes.
What was George Lucas thinking, letting this thing be released? Personally, I think he’s gone barmy.
Let me reassure you, I wasn’t being a smart alec just then, I was just expressing my views in my own way. I’m sure we all have our own idiosyncrasies.
titles that if critics are pressed, they will concede there are merits to, but which they don’t really have that much interest in.
I would conceed to this point for both FFXIII and KOTOR. I would never see KOTOR in the same way as the FF series. They can’t even begin to be compared to each other. They belong to two different genres, that would be akin to oil and water. It would be futile to even begin hashing out this line of argument.
Both KOTOR and FF7 are held in high regard by their respective fans and by critics in general.
Agreed, but science fiction and fantasy games are approached in a vastly different almost opposing manner.
Comparing scores of games that came out so far apart is rarely helpful. Games are never scored on merit alone at the best of times, with all kinds of other considerations beyond the ones I’ve already mentioned going into the mix (such as how much does the reviewer like the genre, the need to pander to their reader’s predjudicies, the need to ingratiate themselves to important developers etc etc).
That being said, I have no doubt that if you pressed them for an answer, most western critics would say even now, that either they preferred KOTOR or had no preference because they just don’t care about RPGs. Whereas most (if not all) eastern critics would say they preferred FF13 and probably had no opinion at all about KOTOR (because its a western game and as I mentioned before, their stock response is that all western games are s**t).
From my point of view. I’ve never played such drivel in my life.
That’s your opinion, and a lot of people (myself included disagree with it) but it is indeed your own opinion. I’ve played your ‘oh so vaunted’ Tekken, and yet, I’ve gotten far more enjoyment out of playing Kessen II (Which does a poor retelling of the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which was based on actual events) than Tekken.
– It’s a good cure for insomnia
I disagree quite vehemently with this, as the story itself is quite good. It has ties to the Sith War of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-droma’s (set 50 years prior to the game) and introduces a new protaganist and his journey to not just redemption, but eventual return to the Unknown Regions to fight what he originally set out to do when he chose to fall to the Dark Side. Add in his capable general, The Exile, from KotORII TSL following him…. is typical scifi/Star Wars fare. Lays the groundwork for The Old Republic MMO slated for release early next year.
– If ever one gets bored of losing in Tekken, they would only have to think of KOTOR and find a new well of resolve to keep their Tekken fighters kicking. They would do anything rather than go back to such monotony.
Again with Tekken? Meh, Dynasty Warriors is superior. At least DW has a story (Based on the afforementioned novel written by Luo Guanzhong), being based on the Civil War in Ancient China circa 170AD – 280AD.
– It helps actors dramatise a tragedy. One would only have to think of this game to bring tears to their eyes.
KotOR’s story, tale of one’s redemption and coming to terms with their past, is a tragedy. However, it’s stereotypical of the Star Wars storyline… and if it works, it works.
What was George Lucas thinking, letting this thing be released? Personally, I think he’s gone barmy.
George Lucas lost the plot with Star Wars The Force Unleashed I and II… making them canon with the series is something I personally can not understand. KotOR on the otherhand, was a different change of pace. Set in a different time period, with different characters etc… allows more free reign in making a story. Not much is truly known of the Old Republic era, only bits and pieces here and there, so instead of making a game with Luke and Co. in their time frame where one would have to follow guidelines etc for how to have them (Look at Star Wars Jedi Academy… set after Luke’s Jedi Academy is up and running, with Luke, Kyle Katarn, Wedge Antilles and even Chewbacca running around). With KotOR, BioWare was allowed to create a fresh chapter (With reference to The Sith War, thanks to Jolee Bindo talking about Nomi Sunrider and others) to add to the Old Republic era and they succeeded. With the upcoming MMO, The Old Republic, there is a vested interest in this era of Star Wars history not just by BioWare/Lucasarts, but also many fans of Star Wars/sci fi in general.
Let me reassure you, I wasn’t being a smart alec just then, I was just expressing my views in my own way. I’m sure we all have our own idiosyncrasies.
True enough. My view is that KotOR IS a good game and is deserving of the praise it has received. FFXIII has only been praised for it’s graphics (which do not make a game in itself), battle system which is flawed (Having no control over your party, only the party leader and if they die it’s game over. I prefer being able to set my party up how I want and have them do exactly what I say via the traditional battle system from earlier FF’s) and the mediocre soundtrack (which fails when compared to earlier FF soundtracks). The characters, to me, are not memorable whatsoever and I’m unable to form any attachment to them whatsoever. At least KotOR’s cast were a well balanced cast, with a great soundtrack.
I would conceed to this point for both FFXIII and KOTOR. I would never see KOTOR in the same way as the FF series. They can’t even begin to be compared to each other. They belong to two different genres, that would be akin to oil and water. It would be futile to even begin hashing out this line of argument.
… yet you compare KotOR and Tekken together…. KotOR and FFXIII are both RPG’s. Only difference being KotOR is a Action RPG/WRPG, wheras XIII is a JRPG. At the core, they are fundamentally the same though, just like every other RPG (whether WRPG or JRPG).
Actually I didn’t, not really, I was only using Tekken as a reference to what game I personally would become bored continuously losing in (I’m sure other can identify), but I’ll let that slide.
Again with Tekken? Meh, Dynasty Warriors is superior. At least DW has a story (Based on the afforementioned novel written by Luo Guanzhong), being based on the Civil War in Ancient China circa 170AD – 280AD.
Tekken has a story too. It even has a movie. Where as DW may be better (I wouldn’t know as I haven’t played it) it isn’t because it has a story.
I’ve played your ‘oh so vaunted’ Tekken,
Oh so vaunted, did I say or imply that?
Which one?
Not to be rude but out of consideration for the administrators, moderators and other users I will not respond any more on this topic on this thread. This thread has now been twisted beyond recognition due to our discussion and I feel that it is past time that we returned to the matter at hand.
I’m not comparing the games themselves, I’m comparing their status as breakout titles, both to fans and to critics.
My apologies, I misunderstood. For what it’s worth I agree with your sentiment.
That’s ‘taking a chance’ in anyone’s books, surely? Even the critics who were most critical of this game still had to hold their hands up and applaud Square for trying something new.
And from what you say, it appears you haven’t played the game *at all*, yet you’re making statements about it? Well, that’s a bit far even for me to let slide. You should at least have played some of it!
I’m sorry if this seems to be getting us back on the wrong track again, but I just don’t see how we can have constructive debates about this game under these kinds of circumstances. You don’t have to play all of it, as a game’s inability to grip to the end is a talking point in and of itself. But like I say, if you haven’t actually played any of it, then how can you have any but the most general of speculations about it?
———- Post added 07-13-2011 at 12:04 AM ———- Previous post was 07-12-2011 at 11:56 PM ———-
I should have said the combat system was playing it safe, so my bad on that. I wasnt really proofreading.
Your statement is still wildly inaccurate even if you only apply it to the combat system. The combat is by far the thing that the critics liked the best about the game, and is significantly more engaging from my personal perspective, than the vast majority of JRPGs from recent times. Only Star Ocean has better JRPG combat IMO.
Again, the opinions of western gamers who are out of love with JRPGs to start with, is not a good place to try and find truth. Eastern fans and critics from East and West all loved the combat. But the combat is something you must play the majority of the game to fully appreciate, because the system doesn’t fully open up until the last third of the game.
That is a problem by itself, as the game should never have made gamers wait that long for free roaming, party select, access to all paradigms for all squad members etc etc. But almost without exception, those later levels have been praised by the gamers who did stick it out, as being worth the wait and by far the most enjoyable areas of the game.
The game makes lots of very awkward artistic decisions that make it inaccesible in the extreme until these late stages. It is the very defjnition of a game that is not playing it safe.
Again, I’m not trying to have a go, I’m really not. Its just frustrating to see people with (IMO) a skewed understanding of what this game is like, because they either haven’t played it at all, or haven’t played enough of it to reach the sections where it all clicks into place (the ‘sweet spot’ of the game as Edge magazine put it).
———- Post added at 12:33 AM ———- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ———-
I never even said the game was bad, I was just trying to break it down. I actually like what I have seen with combat so after I play LA Noire and send it back I will be finding out for myself and come back then. Oh and btw im trying to go in spoiler free but what do you mean awkward artistic choice. Just PM me please so I can stop making an ass out of myself lol.
I just wanted to clarify something – my issue with what you were saying is that ‘Playing it Safe’ sounds really, really bad. Its one of the sternest criticisms you can make about any game IMO, so I hope understand why I’m so keen to follow up on that point. Because I honestly don’t think it applies, and whilst there are many valid criticisms to be made about this game, charging it with playing things safe, is very unfair and very damaging any game’s image.
Because it makes it sound like the developers just cranked out yet another JRPG, and for better or worse, this is one of the most unique JRPGs in years and years.
I think you’re taking my comments much more seriously than they were intended. My comments were merely intended to show my frustration that Square might take (what I consider to be) a massively regressive step and put towns and NPCs with nothing to say, back into their games.
Don’t get wrong, I’m all for NPCs that do add something – WRPGs for example, only let you talk to NPCs who have something relevant to plot, side quests, game history etc etc to say. JRPGs have often allowed you to talk to absolutely everyone, of which hardly any had anything of substance to say.
But on the subject of improvement… well, we have to agree to disagree, because as I’ve said, I’m fine with the recent installments.
As to Square listening to fan’s complaints – well as I’ve said, that’s how most of the mechanics and style of FF13 came about, directly contrasting the equally criticised elements of FF12. It isn’t an approach that works. Fans are never a reliable or useful source of inspiration. They will never reach any consensus, but everyone will still claim that their suggestions are ‘accepted by everyone who isn’t stupid’ as the obvious things to do.
And besides, the game sold massively, and the home audience (i.e Japanese) fans and critics both loved the game to pieces. The sequel is being made because of popular demand, so why would they feel the need to make sweeping changes? Western gamers aren’t into JRPGs at the moment, so unless the game is legitimately the greatest JRPG ever, it isn’t going to get much lasting traction at the moment.
No offense intended.
Obviously Square realized they needed to make some changes otherwise why make any changes in FFXIII-2 ?
They must be trying to appeal to someone and if the Japanese gamers are content with FF I assume gamers elsewhere aren’t and they are trying to appeal to those gamers while still of course keeping their Japanese fanbase.
I expect I will buy the game.I expect those improvements will be enough to make me like it more than FFXIII although I still don’t like the button mashing.
To be fair though, the FF7 and onwards games are all by diifferent directors and producers. They all have their own styles and tones, for what certain systems may be too fast or too slow paced for what they have in mind. I think FF13-2 is using the same director though, so it’ll be intersting to see exactly how he goes about it.
And button mashing? The system doesn’t require you to mash any button, one press of the relevant button and away you go. Button mashing is something like Jade Empire or Dragon Age 2.
Besides which, I love me a good button basher. Give me a steady stream of rubbishy (but dirt cheap) action games, and I’m a happy man. All that AAA game gloss and polish gets so sickly, you can’t beat a bit of honest to goodness scummy gaming!
And no, I’m not saying FF13 is that! 😀
It’s true that FF XIII and FF XII differ as night and day, but it doesn’t prove that all the changes in FF XIII are the product of SE addressing the fan complaints about FF XII. Again, it’s simply your guess and it’s no different than, for instance, me saying that the reason that FF XIII is linear simply because it was developed by the same team that also developed FF X, which was also very linear.
The same director as did FF13 was behind FF12: Revenant Wings and FFX-2, both of which are extremely non-linear, seeing as how you can try missions in pretty much any order, go wherever you like (you get the airship on the second level in RW, and the full world map is available almost immediately in FFX-2). There are different endings in that game, different ways scenarios can play based on what you did – all absolutely non linear.
So whilst I have no confession letter signed in blood from the team, I’d submit that the director’s past work would not prepare you for how linear FF13 is. Ergo, my belief (rightly or wrongly) that they were reacting to what was at the time, very strong criticism (from the fans at least), about FF12 style and systems.
Short of going to Japan and dragging the guy here to testify one way or the other, I’m not sure what else I can do. I mean, I suppose I could do that. Hold on, just let me check the flight times…
Stun gun – check, rope – check, japanese dictionary – check, interrogation flashlight – check…
If I’m not back in a week, call the British Embassy.
Yeah I know. Haven’t been playing much FF lately and ended up drifting from this board. Plus I’ve been busy.
The other FF games I’ve played are PS1 versions of FF4,5, and 7, and I sadly never completed them. 🙁 But I plan on getting through the rest of 13, and as far as I know, not everyone hates 13 at all, one of my friends loved it to bits and recommended me to play it.
*Yay that was my first post horay!*
Full recovery of hp/mp after battle.
This is seriously overpowered.
In the old games,you had to think ahead and bring potions and be prepared.
In FFXIII,you just run through mindlessly killing anything that gets in your way not even considering if you may need anti poison or resist vs mute or stuff like that.
I remember dying in FF1 on the nes because i didn’t bring any pures when i was exploring the cave where you get the crown to figth astos.
XIII is like adding 2+2 in comparison.
…and that was good was it…?
That was a gameplay flaw, not that I’m implying that healing after every battle is good, but loosing on the original FF because you had no way to know the enemies on the next dungeon used poison and had no way to get enough antidotes on said dungeon was frustrating.
There was no "real" strategy on the original FF anymore than on FFXIII, the way to beat it was to level up a lot, or retry a lot, since you could get lucky and have the dungeon "boss" forgeting to use his most powerful attack.
That was a gameplay flaw, not that I’m implying that healing after every battle is good, but loosing on the original FF because you had no way to know the enemies on the next dungeon used poison and had no way to get enough antidotes on said dungeon was frustrating.
Speaking as a veteran RPG player, no matter what system, I always made sure I carried enough medicine (whether Potions, Phoenix Downs, Antidotes etc) I could carry. Made sense (and still does) to ensure you have a healthy supply of assorted medicine in your inventory, no matter what level you are etc. Common sense really.
There was no "real" strategy on the original FF anymore than on FFXIII, the way to beat it was to level up a lot, or retry a lot, since you could get lucky and have the dungeon "boss" forgeting to use his most powerful attack.
Spending time leveling up your characters, while time consuming, does increase your chances of surviving what comes next. For example, in FFVIII, soon as I could get to the Islands closest to Heaven/Hell, I spent time leveling up there (same as in Breath of Fire II for example. Soon as you get the Whale, went straight to the northern most island and spent time killing mobs there). Once again… common sense.
But then…
Spending time leveling up your characters, while time consuming, does increase your chances of surviving what comes next. For example, in FFVIII, soon as I could get to the Islands closest to Heaven/Hell, I spent time leveling up there (same as in Breath of Fire II for example. Soon as you get the Whale, went straight to the northern most island and spent time killing mobs there). Once again… common sense.
Thank you,you made my point for me.
Using antidotes out of battle,or something adds strategy and makes you think ahead instead of just rushing through.
The only reason to have potions is for inside battles and when they are particularly tough,and even then i never really used them because i could heal just fine.
For most of the part:FFXIII was unbalanced in difficulty,going towards ridiculously easy most of the time.
The adamantoise doesn’t count since you are supposed to be prepared to fight them.
Common sense really.
I don’t really follow where you are trying to get with this.
Come on! Really, as if you were always a "veteran RPG player", I lost on FF as Nostalgia gamer did, you know it was hard to get enough money to buy supllies on the original FF, you’re just bragging.
My point is that I can’t see what’s so great about loosing a lot on a game, so you beat FFXIII and rarely get to see a game over and that’s bad? Why? I can’t understand that, it’ not like it’s ridiculously easy. Take the MegaTen games per example, hardcore console RPG’s, it’s not fun at all to get to a boss and find out you’ll have to grind for 2 hours or get a specific character/demon with specific skills to beat it.
I’m also experient in RPG’s (both console and PC) and I hate grinding (although I do it when I have to), the way I see it overleveling removes whatever kind of strategy you may use in combat, I always try to beat RPG’s with the lowest level possible, that forces me to be resourceful.
…leveling in FFVIII makes no sense, the enemies level up with you, all I needed were 100 high level magics (ultima, flare, holy) for each character (for ATK and HP) and I was ready to go. As for BoF2, yeah, tough grinding 🙁
I agree that in FFXIII you didn’t need to plan ahead in terms of items, hell I only remember using them in the early stages. But the paradigms had to be changed around a lot on most dungeons and bosses. FFXIII wasn’t hard, but it wasn’t that easy! I also didn’t use the auto-battle, they should have removed that option, that would have forced a lot of people to actually "think" in battle.
Common sense is not so common. Just like Voltaire once said.
I don’t really follow where you are trying to get with this.
Come on! Really, as if you were always a "veteran RPG player", I lost on FF as Nostalgia gamer did, you know it was hard to get enough money to buy supllies on the original FF, you’re just bragging.
Well iddalai there are other RPG’s available besides the FF series. Even when I first started playing computer RPG’s on my old 386 PC (The game was Dark Knights of Krynn by SSI), I knew to always be prepared and had a good supply of medicine/curatives in my party inventory at any one time/or had a healer with the right spell lists. I say ‘veteran RPG player’, as I used to play the old AD&D roleplaying games in high school… and knew to always be prepared.
Yes it was hard to get money, but not impossible. Stop griping.
My point is that I can’t see what’s so great about loosing a lot on a game, so you beat FFXIII and rarely get to see a game over and that’s bad? Why? I can’t understand that, it’ not like it’s ridiculously easy. Take the MegaTen games per example, hardcore console RPG’s, it’s not fun at all to get to a boss and find out you’ll have to grind for 2 hours or get a specific character/demon with specific skills to beat it.
FFXIII was just terrible as a game. I’ve stated that too many times in this thread, and won’t go into detail again. The MegaTen games, while they were good, I couldn’t get into them, so I can’t comment much on them. Besides, it makes sense to level up your characters as earlier RPG’s didn’t have the mobs level up with you per se, like they do in current games.
I’m also experient in RPG’s (both console and PC) and I hate grinding (although I do it when I have to), the way I see it overleveling removes whatever kind of strategy you may use in combat, I always try to beat RPG’s with the lowest level possible, that forces me to be resourceful.
That’s your perogative. I hate grinding as well, yet after playing FFXI (where you HAVE to grind to get to a level where you can get anything done) I can appreciate that grinding is a requirement in every RPG and instead of people complaining about it (which in any MMO there is ALWAYS people complaining about level grinding), just STFU, and go get it done.
…leveling in FFVIII makes no sense, the enemies level up with you, all I needed were 100 high level magics (ultima, flare, holy) for each character (for ATK and HP) and I was ready to go. As for BoF2, yeah, tough grinding
Depends on the player. Speaking for myself, I leveled my squad to max level (even though the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice) for my own piece of mind.
BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though.
I agree that in FFXIII you didn’t need to plan ahead in terms of items, hell I only remember using them in the early stages. But the paradigms had to be changed around a lot on most dungeons and bosses. FFXIII wasn’t hard, but it wasn’t that easy! I also didn’t use the auto-battle, they should have removed that option, that would have forced a lot of people to actually "think" in battle.
I won’t comment anymore on FFXIII, as I’ve said above, I’ve already posted my comments about that.
Common sense is not so common. Just like Voltaire once said.
True, Common sense may not be common… in some cases it’s a rarity. So rare that it is a goddamn superpower.
FFXIII was just terrible as a game. I’ve stated that too many times in this thread, and won’t go into detail again. The MegaTen games, while they were good, I couldn’t get into them, so I can’t comment much on them. Besides, it makes sense to level up your characters as earlier RPG’s didn’t have the mobs level up with you per se, like they do in current games.
That’s your perogative. I hate grinding as well
Depends on the player. Speaking for myself, I leveled my squad to max level (even though the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice) for my own piece of mind.
BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though.
1:Did you get to the overworld that is just a bunch of stupid sidequests?
The part of FFXIII where it supposedly opens up? The game becomes pretty retarded there because its just a bunch of boring sidequests.
2:Money is very hard to come by in FFXIII,my advice:collect chips from the earlier stages of the game and farm them.
I know you said you hate grinding,but this would help you get money.
3:FF8 junction system sucks.
The card game for me was much more fun than the actual shitty junction system which forces you to needlessly tedious in farming spells and grinding for hours to get ap for abilities so you can be left alone in peace.
Then the shitty card queen quest which i hate so much that i could kill the guy who made the damm thing,i’ve had to reset so many times that it just makes me angry thinking of it.
4:Yeah!! bof is very easy,but the series has always been really easy.
Only thing you need to worry about,is having the right fusion or you will die.
Part of what pisses me off about FFXIII is how damm boring and linear most of the dungeons are,its like:ok i want to run through that dungeon where you are in what seemed to be a huge lot full of trash and possibly car parts or some shit like that.
I was like:Ok i want to get the hell out of here,i’m bored.
It’s like some kind of crazy talk!
Those last comments made no sense!
Just a few things I find out of place:
-First Darth Revan tells me there are other RPGs besides FF, when I mentioned MegaTen…
-Apparently you were born a veteran RPG player, wonder what other kinds of super powers you MUST have (besides the almighty common sense…), must be really hard to admit you once didn’t now how to play RPGs, even in pen and paper (…which I also played, btw check out "Order Of The Stick" if you haven’t already, you’ll like it).
– No one answers my question of "what’s so great about loosing over and over again".
– One doesn’t need to play MegaTen games to know it’s not fun to grind for hours to beat a boss… that’s valid for all games.
– Grindind is there to add fake gameplay time, it’s not a part of RPGs, if the math is correct behing the games then you’ll never need to grind (i.e.:Lost Odyssey, Bof: Dragon Quarter).
– "the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice", but you still level them up!? Everytime I prick myself with a needle it hurts and bleeds, but I’ll keep on doing it anyway. That’s your prerogative.
– "BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though." You already mentiond the giant monster island back there, any other reason to try and imply you’re part of that group that "knows" where to level up? Even with that sweet spot it was still tough grinding. I spent hours there, it was not fun.
– Sorry for try and make you comment on FFXIII, after all it’s not like it’s the topic here… Making comments on the game and then refusing to comment again goes against common sense, people back up their views to explain it to others, it’s only natural. I understand you’re tired of repeating yourself, well so am I.
– Then Nostalgia gamer mentions how to get money on FFXIII, when I was talking about getting money on the original FF.
– …and goes on to say that "Yeah!! bof is very easy" when no one said that! And concludes by stating that you only need the right fusion, which makes no sense, either you’re mixing MegaTen with BoF or you are thinking BoF 3, which used a different dragon system then the others, and no one talked about BoF 3 btw.
Shit bat crazy!
I quit people, really, I won’t make any other comments, not when the replies make no (common) sense.
Have fun.
– …and goes on to say that "Yeah!! bof is very easy" when no one said that! And concludes by stating that you only need the right fusion, which makes no sense, either you’re mixing MegaTen with BoF or you are thinking BoF 3, which used a different dragon system then the others, and no one talked about BoF 3 btw.
I was giving advice on grinding for money and or xp as well to make FFXIII easier.
and the whole post was an answer to bof2 not bof3.
In bof2 you can lvl up to max lvl and still die in the final dungeon because the enemies cast death spell which insta kills you and have quite strong spells.
If you don’t have the right fusions on bow and nina,it will be annoying.
And the FF8 answer obviously was towards the stupid fucking junction system.
It’s like some kind of crazy talk!
Those last comments made no sense!
Because they don’t concur with what you have stated? w/e
Just a few things I find out of place:
-First Darth Revan tells me there are other RPGs besides FF, when I mentioned MegaTen…
I posted that in response to what was said in the quote box I quoted from you, iddalai. You mentioned MegaTen towards the end of the post, to which I addressed in that post.
-Apparently you were born a veteran RPG player, wonder what other kinds of super powers you MUST have (besides the almighty common sense…), must be really hard to admit you once didn’t now how to play RPGs, even in pen and paper (…which I also played, btw check out "Order Of The Stick" if you haven’t already, you’ll like it).
I never said that I never knew how to play RPG’s,even in pen and paper. You made that assumption on your own. I would state that NOW, I AM a veteran RPG player, after playing numerous RPG’s over the years. When I first started playing though, just like anyone would be with anything they start for the first time, I made mistakes etc. HOWEVER, even as a fledgling RPG player, it makes sense to have a healthy supply of medicine/restoratives in your inventory. If you think otherwise, that’s your choice.
– No one answers my question of "what’s so great about loosing over and over again".
Losing in a battle is annoying, I admit that. However, the next time you fight what killed you, you can try something different and hopefully win. Case in point, when I got to the final boss’s lair in Dragon Age: Origins for the first time, I died in about 5 minutes. However, the second time I fought it, I did some exploring of the battlefield BEFORE attacking the Archdemon itself… and subsequently was able to defeat it with ease. I use the same approach in every other RPG I’ve played… Save often and use each battle as a learning experience to plan accordingly, so if my party wipes, I can reload and try something different.
– One doesn’t need to play MegaTen games to know it’s not fun to grind for hours to beat a boss… that’s valid for all games.
Like I stated, I haven’t played the MegaTen series and have no intention of doing so, so I can’t comment about that series. While level grinding isn’t fun, no matter if the RPG is a console RPG or MMORPG, it’s a somewhat necessity to the game itself.
– Grindind is there to add fake gameplay time, it’s not a part of RPGs, if the math is correct behing the games then you’ll never need to grind (i.e.:Lost Odyssey, Bof: Dragon Quarter).
If you don’t like it, then blame the late Gary Gygax -the Father of Advanded Dungeons & Dragons- as ALL RPG’s, when you get down to their core elements, were based on his blueprint for RPG’s in the first place.
– "the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice", but you still level them up!? Everytime I prick myself with a needle it hurts and bleeds, but I’ll keep on doing it anyway. That’s your prerogative.
We all play games differently. If you can’t be bothered to play a game how it’s supposed to be played, then go play something else and stop complaining.
– "BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though." You already mentiond the giant monster island back there, any other reason to try and imply you’re part of that group that "knows" where to level up? Even with that sweet spot it was still tough grinding. I spent hours there, it was not fun.
BoFII was easy to level… it also was easy to get the right equipment to make grinding easier, though still challenging. I’m ‘part of that group that "knows" where to level up? Jesus, anyone with a brain can find easy places to level up, which work for THEM. That northern island is perfect for leveling at level 70+ imo, but before that, there are other areas in the world map easy to level. Just have to know where to go… Every RPG has at least one area that is good for leveling at a certain level. In MMORPG’s, the areas are more easily defined as to where to level up, I can list numerous areas to experience party in FFXI no matter what the level (and if you want, I can list them here if that’d make you feel better).
– Sorry for try and make you comment on FFXIII, after all it’s not like it’s the topic here… Making comments on the game and then refusing to comment again goes against common sense, people back up their views to explain it to others, it’s only natural. I understand you’re tired of repeating yourself, well so am I.
Read my earlier posts here then, regarding my opinion of Final Fantasy XIII iddalai… I will provide one post here in spoiler tabs (read the last few pages and you’ll see my posts):
However, there are those who do have their own valid reasons as to why they hate this game. Myself, I tried to play it 3 times… the longest only being about 5 hours into it and I can honestly say I was bored to tears (and saying the game picks up after Chapter 11… in a 13 chapter game isn’t a good thing, it’s poor game design). Lacklustre characters, uninteresting plot, mediocre music and poor battle system. The lack of any NPC villages/towns like in earlier FF’s irritated me as well, though that’s only a minor quipe really. The opening scene was more or less ripped out of FFVII, and with the character designer being told to make a female Cloud Strife, that’s exactly what we got in Lightning.
There’s one review which sums up almost 100% perfectly my own opinion about this game, and here’s the link:
Zero Punctuation – Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion it’s true, so while there are people who think FFXIII is the best ever… remember, there are those who despise it (some even more than FFVII).
I will however, provide you with a link to a online review for FFXIII that I happen to agree with 110%.
Zero Punctuation: Final Fantasy XIII by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
– Then Nostalgia gamer mentions how to get money on FFXIII, when I was talking about getting money on the original FF.
Money is difficult to get in any game… what’s your point?
– …and goes on to say that "Yeah!! bof is very easy" when no one said that! And concludes by stating that you only need the right fusion, which makes no sense, either you’re mixing MegaTen with BoF or you are thinking BoF 3, which used a different dragon system then the others, and no one talked about BoF 3 btw.
I’d learn to read a post fully, before making comments which in no way are a response to what was quoted. Nostalgia gamer was referring to BoF II, not BoF III or others of the series.
Shit bat crazy!
My response:
I quit people, really, I won’t make any other comments, not when the replies make no (common) sense.
You won’t be missed. While the replies make no common sense to you… doesn’t mean they don’t to others or that others may/may not agree with them.
Have fun.
Thanks, we will.
Money is difficult to get in any game… what’s your point?
Money is not hard to get in a lot of games if you know how:
FF1:you can grind on giants and later on when you get the bane sword,or the thor’s hammer it becomes very easy.
FF2 nes:during the half game when you get small mini and toad,the game becomes broken in how easy it becomes.
Bof:all you need,is to get to the island where you find the final tower and level outside on giant things,same as bof2.
Its really really easy.
On the other hand:FF8 isn’t too hard in cash,you just make sure you don’t run away.
FFXIII is more annoying than hard because you gain gil through selling stuff in this game and untill you near the open world,the game is very boring and there is almost no gameplay at all.
My point is:Gold isn’t too hard to get if you know how to.
If you can’t get money in games like bof 1 and 2 and ff1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 legends bof 1&2 grandia 1-3 etc etc:Then you seriously fail at rpgs.
That was a gameplay flaw, not that I’m implying that healing after every battle is good, but loosing on the original FF because you had no way to know the enemies on the next dungeon used poison and had no way to get enough antidotes on said dungeon was frustrating.
There was no "real" strategy on the original FF anymore than on FFXIII, the way to beat it was to level up a lot, or retry a lot, since you could get lucky and have the dungeon "boss" forgeting to use his most powerful attack.
When I go trekking in the fucking Amazon, you best know that I will have every fucking known antidote to every snake in the universe before I walk in there. It’s a fucking role playing game, go figure. Rest in the inn, prepare for your journey, get your antidotes, eye drops and potions, and then walk into whatever fucking cave you want. The only gameplay flaw is making me feel like I’m not even injured after fighting 10 behemoths and 300 soldiers COUGH FF13 COUGH. But whatever, my name is Lightning, I guess I can do shit like that and get away with it.
Wait, what you mean the original FFs didn’t need strategy. I distinctly remember hitting the antlion with MAGIC WITH RED EYES and PHYSICAL WITH CLEAR EYES. If that’s not strategy I don’t know what is. :). Furthermore, if you timed your spell casts (OH YEAH IT TOOK TIME TO CAST MAGIC) wrong, a behemoth would wreck your team no matter how buff they were. In FF13 Lightning could give 2 fucks what Behemoths think. But whatever, my name is Lightning, I guess I can do shit like that and get away with it. Wait did I say that before?
That boss is kinda ridiculous and the point that the game doesn’t actually allow you to lvl up to be stronger vs the bosses sucks balls.
I mean:do they even explain why crystarium expands? i haven’t seen much of an explanation for it.
Oh and don’t get me started on vanille and hope,i would take my belt out and beat that damm hope half to death if i could.
Cloud may be annoying but hope? he whines so damm much and vanille is exactly like selphie,and i can’t stand selphie.
Oh yeah:did you notice similarities in characters?
Vanille is like selphie
Hope is like raiden from mgs2/4 in personality,cept he whines a lot more and is a bigger pussy.
Oh yeah:I think the only character i like so far are:Cid and Sazh.
I don’t like lightning either but she doesn’t bother me,she just ceases to exist since she leaves no impression on me.
Snow on the other hand:He’s an idiot for digging up his crystalized girlfriend and not runninga away and allowing guards to capture him.
Vanille is like selphieSelphie is a ridiculous amount more professional (in a loose sense, but when it comes down to it she is), clumsiness aside. Selphie’s a trained soldier and Vanille is a sugar high teenager (well… sorta) from down under.
Hope is like raiden from mgs2/4 in personality,cept he whines a lot more and is a bigger pussy.Not only is Hope like 14 years old (the golden age to whine), but Raiden had a shitload of reasons to whine to begin with. You tell me that you don’t whine after repressing as much trauma as Raiden has. And Hope becomes a lot less terrified and more ballsy towards the second half of the game, so he definitely develops.
And Revan, I keep mentioning that post-chapter 11 is just as long as pre-chapter 11 and you keep ignoring that. It’s not poor design, they just wanted 13 chapters so they compressed more into the last 3 chapters.
No, I’m not ignoring that. To you it may not be, but to myself and others it IS poor game design. It seems that when SE made FFXIII, they worked on the ending of the game FIRST… and the beginning LAST. Playing 11 boring ass chapters, and then left with 3 good ones is pathetic, but really what can we expect from SE now? They’ve shot themselves with XIV, and have recently done the same to FFXI… SE never fully recovered from the shambolic mess that was Final Fantasy The Spirits Within and they’re bleeding money constantly, the longer they keep XIV FTP.
Look… if you like FFXIII in the state it’s in Mercenary Raven, that’s your choice. For me, it’s a mess… and as I’ve stated earlier in this thread, I agree 100% with the review of FFXIII by Zero Punctuation’s, Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, which for me to agree with any professional game reviewer is a rarity.
They do their own thing, as they always have. The game is specifically crafted to be that way – its not that they didn’t understand that they were doing it ‘wrong’, or that is indeed wrong for what they are trying to accomplish. It just doesn’t fit with what western gamers expect and want from a modern game.
But that’s part of what makes this game for me – the fact that its Jap developers making a game in a crazy, completely consumer unfriendly way, that no western developer with their rich backers armed with flow charts of consumer purchasing trends, would ever dream of doing (or be allowed to do).
The Japs don’t know how to edit themselves to make sane games with clear objectives and regular pacing – and I love them for it.
I don’t… XD
Insane games with non-clear objectives is something that I like because it’s kind of exciting… Of course in the end it has to serve some purpose or give somekind of reward to feel good about.
But the Irregular, or let’s put it this way. The SLOW pacing is not good. To ANYONE.
If anyone tells me that the game picks up after chapter 11, it doesn’t speak good about the game. In any possible way, there many things that you could decipher with just that. That’s why I have to be with Revan on this one.
Mystery must be exciting and gripping that it should keep you there. It musn’t bore you or make you wanna quit because nothing interesting happens after 11 chapter, which that must be 20+ hours of gameplay right?
I don’t own a next-gen console to play the game :P, so you tell me.
The later Chapters are quoted as being better, because the gameplay options are all finally unlocked, so you can choose from all the party members, assign the team leader yourself, have the full range of paradigms etc. It makes a huge difference to enjoying the gameplay.
I also refute utterly that the first 10 Chapters are either slow paced (this is one of the fatest paced FF games, if not the fastest). The game mixes story progression with constant character development very well. Its just that the gameplay doesn’t keep up, because they keep such a tight rein on what you are allowed to do, who you *must* control and have in your party, where you *must* go etc.
Its not an issue of story pacing, its an issue of gameplay pacing, and the fact that the game is (by design) extremely linear until the later chapters when it becomes massively open, because its making an artistic point about confinement of an oppressive society versus freedom on the lawless world below.
Art decisions that compromise gameplay and deliberately frustrate gamers are frowned on here in the west (the lack of shops with real people and everything being done over the internet is one such example of a topical point that has been completely lost on the ‘There’s no Townz!’ brigade over here). But for those who actually enjoy the Japs and their crazy ‘Games are Art’ ethos (Killer7 being a case in point – some of the best atmosphere and story ever, but some of the truly worst gameplay ever too), its a price worth paying.
Especially since the gameplay is really good IMO, when you are finally allowed to actually use it properly. Not everyone agrees, and that’s fine. The only point I’m making is that this game is not badly designed – it works exactly how the developers wanted it to work. Its just that its priorities are not the ones that most western gamers have.
It values Art over Accessibility, and it doesn’t compromise on that. And I can respect that, but obviously I wouldn’t want all games to be like that. But lighter hearted JRPGs like the Tales series and the very much accessibility focused WRPGs of today, have me covered for when I want something else.
Wouldnt say that too loud lol.
Selphie professional? what drugs are you on?
She almost fell over when you first meet her.
Of course,rinoa was an even bigger idiot trying to go after edea and causing her to get caught.
As for raiden:He whines a lot in mgs2 and has a lot of fucking melodrama in mgs4.
I can stand rinoa because she isn’t too innocent and uppety up,but selphie who’s future encarnation being vanille? NO WAY!!
Maybe we are just two completely different people,i dunno.
When they are assigned to help Rinoa and the Forest Owls, she candidly voices her opinion that the operation is a bit of a joke and actively supports Squall putting his foot down on how haphazard it all is. And later on, when Trabia is bombed, she doesn’t go running off alone to see what happened (as many RPG characters would). She waits until there is a quiet moment, then *asks* if they can go take a look.
That all seems pretty professional to me. Being professional does not mean you have to go around frowning all the time. As long as you get the job done, and none of your squad mates find it off putting, who cares what you act like?
And its pointless to criticise Rinoa too much – after all, she isn’t a solider and she has (at the time she faces Edea), basically no practical experience of combat and how real the danger is. As she goes through the game, she gets a story thread where she starts to worry that she really isn’t cut out for this sort of thing, and that she doesn’t like fighting at all, and isn’t any good at it. It does show her character growing up and learning the realities of war and conflict etc, but it all gets submerged by the love story and just how insane the game is by that point. I don’t think she’s one of the more liked heroines, but I didn’t mind her. Its just a shame that her story shrinks to just being a latent sorceress and being Squall’s love interest in the second part of that game.
As for Vanille, she isn’t happy – its an act she uses to try and forget the stuff she knows she is supposed to be doing, but doesn’t want to do. Vanille and Sazh may seem upbeat and jolly, but they are actually the most scared and unhappy people in the whole game. Which is precisely why the game puts them together for so long. Her character *is* annoying, no doubt about it. But for me at least, its all about her awful voice acting and/or the director’s handling of it. The actress is never any better than okay, and the *constant* round of squeaks and giggles from her is extremely wearing.
If the first 5 hours bored you, that’s fine, but I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue anymore. A good number of people loved FF13 and a good number of people hated it, its to be expected, you just seem to use your hatred of new games as a vehicle for riding SE’s ass for constantly failing your expectations.
Selphie professional? what drugs are you on?
She almost fell over when you first meet her.How is falling at all relevant to being professional? Professionals can be clumsy.
As for raiden:He whines a lot in mgs2 and has a lot of fucking melodrama in mgs4.Yes. Melodrama, right?. You tell me how you’d react when you are captured by some sentient AIs who replace pretty much your entire body from the jaw downwards, and then replaced every drop of blood in your head, on top of the trauma of being a child soldier and completely fucked around with in MGS2 as well as having to kill his own adoptive father. And then you find out that your girlfriend, finally after having verified her existence because you were fucked around with, had a miscarriage with your baby son (at least, that’s what she told you) then married some fucking old guy who an AI disguised itself as to fuck around with you (resulting in more trauma). Yeah, some real fucking melodrama going on there.
I’d say, Raiden is one of those few video game characters who I feel deserved the extremely happy ending he got. Have you even fucking played MGS or paid attention to the plot at least?
You know what, Hope also whines because he saw his own mother die protecting him. And the guy that recruited her was some tough-talking idiot in a vigilante group (and I’m fairly sure all the kids were like "what an idiot" when they first saw Snow, too). And he’s 14 years old. Do the math.
A game should have it’s content flow from start to finish and keep it’s audience entertained. XIII failed to keep ALL of the target audience (Fans of FF etc) interested in it… I don’t just mean the chapter length etc… but also the characters, music, the overall plot… even the damn summons were abominations (a half assed hybrid of transformers and FF summons and we get TWO Shiva’s who transform to a bike? wtf?!?!). SE tried to do something different with XIII… and to some they succeeded. To others though, they failed… miserably. I could also comment on the damn linearity of the game, but what’s the point?
If the first 5 hours bored you, that’s fine, but I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue anymore. A good number of people loved FF13 and a good number of people hated it, its to be expected, you just seem to use your hatred of new games as a vehicle for riding SE’s ass for constantly failing your expectations.
I seem to use my hatred of new games as a vehicle for…. I don’t know whether to burst into a fit of rage or laugh my ass off at that. I’ve played FF ever since it was released here in Australia, and I’ve also played numerous RPG’s over the years (even the traditional style AD&D games in high school), and from my own perspective, the quality of the FF games has signifcantly declined over the years. Far as I’m concerned the PS2 generation and onwards of FF, is the worst era… I don’t include FFXI in that grouping (even though it was originally released on PS2 in Japan) as that’s a MMORPG, which is a completely different animal compared to the console RPG’s.
If you like XIII, go ahead… enjoy yourself. From my perspective, it was utter garbage and wasn’t worth the time or money I spent on it… and seeing brand new and sealed copies of it going for sale in at least four retail outlets for $10AUSD within a month of release (as well as comments from said retailers (which I won’t detail as that’s third person views) about how their customers have referred to it when returning it for a refund etc), says a LOT about it. I’d love it, if someone had actually done a survey of all the copies returned with the comments as to why they were returned, so I could refer to that in cases like this.
Ultimately though… it’s up to the individual in question whether they like this game (and it’s parent company) or not. I tried three times to play FFXIII… and each time I tried, the characters/plot/battle system (yes, I hate the damn battle system)/etc etc etc made the game unplayable for me. The bad luck of the number 13 shines on FFXIII…
…but that’s just my OWN opinion.
EDIT: I do have my own valid reasons as to why I dislike SE… which AREN’T related to FFXIII at all.
and from my own perspective
You contradict yourself in the same post. You comment on how much the game objectively sucks — which you should know damn well you can’t really do — to say "well, in my opinion, I liked it and you’re free to like it too, but I hate SE." At least word yourself better, maybe people wouldn’t respond to you as harshly as they do, considering you enjoy switching between stating something as opinion and stating something as fact (in terms of quality, that is).
If you are in combat you want to be as balanced as possible to keep on your feet and aware.
Imagine if you are a complete and utter clutz and unaware of your surroundings ok?
You wouldn’t last very long.
Yes. Melodrama, right?. You tell me how you’d react when you are captured by some sentient AIs who replace pretty much your entire body from the jaw downwards, and then replaced every drop of blood in your head, on top of the trauma of being a child soldier and completely fucked around with in MGS2 as well as having to kill his own adoptive father. And then you find out that your girlfriend, finally after having verified her existence because you were fucked around with, had a miscarriage with your baby son (at least, that’s what she told you) then married some fucking old guy who an AI disguised itself as to fuck around with you (resulting in more trauma). Yeah, some real fucking melodrama going on there.
I’d say, Raiden is one of those few video game characters who I feel deserved the extremely happy ending he got. Have you even fucking played MGS or paid attention to the plot at least?
What about snake? he has 3 clones and he killed big boss and used as a pawn in a game for control.
I feel more sorry for snake than raiden.
Raiden’s whole personality wasn’t that likeable for me and you are allowed to like him but i don’t.
In fact,in mgs4:i end up missing frank jaegger as the ninja.
I’ve beaten mgs2 many times and mgs4 at least 2 or 3 times.
The ending is great to mgs2.
You know what, Hope also whines because he saw his own mother die protecting him. And the guy that recruited her was some tough-talking idiot in a vigilante group (and I’m fairly sure all the kids were like "what an idiot" when they first saw Snow, too). And he’s 14 years old. Do the math.
Hope not only whines and cries a lot,he is a whimpering coward.
He complains that he isn’t strong enough to lead and finally i say:FINALLY!! you finally man up to lead.
Where have I stated/implied in any of my posts in this subforum about FFXIII "well, in my opinion, I liked it and you’re free to like it too, but I hate SE"? I haven’t shied away from stating my disgust with this game. To me, it has failed across the board with it’s characters, music, battle system, plot, etc etc etc… As I stated, I TRIED to play this game THREE TIMES…. and each time while I may of gotten a bit further into the game than the last, there was nothing there to grab my attention and keep me interested in it.
"People wouldn’t respond to you as harshly as they do"… So, I have to tiptoe around and not rock the boat? Fuck that. FROM MY OWN PERSPECTIVE FFXIII was a travesty of a game, and while their are people who do enjoy it, I am not one of them. Why should I be, when I have my own legitimate reasons as to NOT like it? Did you even read all of my post (and understand it), or did you just skim it for what you wanted to use against me? If so, I pity you.
Since I’ve been a member of this forum, I have tried to have my posts, which may contain opinions based on personal experiences that are not be meant to be taken as facts. What may appear as fact with no source reference may be recollection of information with no source, and may be subject to scrutiny without source reference. Any debate over validity of said facts without source references may be considered conjecture of all parties in that debate. Player comments may not be the expressed position/consent of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said organizations. Please take these posts with a grain of salt if you are offended by the views of the player and understand that opinions are like assholes… everyone has one, not everyone wants to hear it.
Raiden’s whole personality wasn’t that likeable for me and you are allowed to like him but i don’t.That’s fine but saying that he has melodrama and whines too much is quite stupid considering the circumstances. If you left it at what you just said then you’d be fine.
And yes, I felt bad for Snake as well. I feel bad for Raiden, but they both got their own happy endings and they both truly deserved it. I was merely talking about Raiden, I didn’t mention any of the other characters in MGS who you just feel awful for.
Hope not only whines and cries a lot,he is a whimpering coward.He’s also 14. The rest of your point didn’t make sense.
As i said:he still has far too much melodrama.
He complains quite a bit about being weak and his past,but in the end there is not enough about him that i actually give a shit about hope,instead i hate him more.
And yes, I felt bad for Snake as well. I feel bad for Raiden, but they both got their own happy endings and they both truly deserved it. I was merely talking about Raiden, I didn’t mention any of the other characters in MGS who you just feel awful for.
Raiden’s whole thing of:am i dead? no i’m not he stabs himself and then turns into a robot seems kind of overly melodramatic.
It was like they were trying to force you to simpathize with him.
He’s also 14. The rest of your point didn’t make sense.[/QUOTE]
Just because he’s 14 doesn’t mean he has to whine a lot.
I’ve known 14 year olds who didn’t whine that much.
Raiden’s whole thing of:am i dead? no i’m not he stabs himself and then turns into a robot seems kind of overly melodramatic.I’m not one to comment on grammar, usually, and I hate grammar Nazis, but your grammar is absolutely atrocious and I’m taking a shot in the dark every single time you post about what your point is.
Just because he’s 14 doesn’t mean he has to whine a lot.
I’ve known 14 year olds who didn’t whine that much. There’s a rather large amount of 14 year olds that whine. I’m not saying it gives him the excuse to whine, but you have to take into account that he is more or less a teenager going through puberty, and they do portray him accurately for a 14 year old.
I don’t remember that part in the second game.What i remember,is raiden talking about gunpowder fed to him and his military group? something like that.Anyways:This was done by solidus and he had a personal grudge against solidus because of what he did and he was all proud of what he did and even admiring raiden’s killing skills.
I’m not one to comment on grammar, usually, and I hate grammar Nazis, but your grammar is absolutely atrocious and I’m taking a shot in the dark every single time you post about what your point is.
There’s a rather large amount of 14 year olds that whine. I’m not saying it gives him the excuse to whine, but you have to take into account that he is more or less a teenager going through puberty, and they do portray him accurately for a 14 year old.
There are also some 14 year olds that whine for the wrong reasons,and why i prefer more mature settings.
I still think both hope and vanille were really annoying.
I would have to say that, when placed in a stressful life or death situation, anyone would whine…….not so sure about FF13 but Raiden was a child soldier. If you still think thats not going to leave you with some pretty much fucked up emotional baggage than a normal person than you obviously dont know too much about mental trauma. If Hope is 14 and doing the stuff the average FF character does then of course he is going to be pretty whiney. What do you think he will be a hardened little killer? Mandalorian Super Commando? Maybe a powerful, angry, demigod?
How would you expect him to behave? Can any of us say we would last ten minutes under that kind of stress? When we were that young?! You ask too much of him – he does extremely well considering the circumstances.
How would you expect him to behave? Can any of us say we would last ten minutes under that kind of stress? When we were that young?! You ask too much of him – he does extremely well considering the circumstances.
And there you have it folks. Vrykolas just won this one (so did raven).
I have my skeletons you have your skeletons and guess what:we are all fucked up in life.Whining that you are weak isn’t going to do anything unless you get a hold of yourself and start manning up.
Hope should try to lead and maybe even try aww man this is pointless.
All he is to me,is annoying.
Hope should try to leadWhich he eventually… did.
Raiden was MGS2’s butt monkey, and in MGS4 most of his body is still gone. You don’t just "get over" this kind of shit. Ever heard of PTSD?
Which he eventually… did.
Raiden was MGS2’s butt monkey, and in MGS4 most of his body is still gone. You don’t just "get over" this kind of shit. Ever heard of PTSD?
I know someone who was in vietnam,and you know what? he wasn’t fucking whining about it.
He was trying to forget the shitty events and even though sometimes he was frowning,he wasn’t constantly whining about it,in fact:He kept it a secret and didn’t want to talk about it.
He talked about it to my sister because she knew him longer and was friends with him longer and she told me about some stories.
I have my skeletons you have your skeletons and guess what:we are all fucked up in life.Whining that you are weak isn’t going to do anything unless you get a hold of yourself and start manning up.
Hope should try to lead and maybe even try aww man this is pointless.
All he is to me,is annoying.
You lost your mother in a brutal civil war with no home and have no hope of survival? Then you can be qualified. Please tell me if I am wrong but the Nam vet has had years of dealing with it and the kid was under fucking 14 when it happened. Your pointless bravado astounds me, even my friends in the army and marines all agree that if you endure trauma that early on then they will not be goddamned normal.
Even if you suffer from an event and this guy suffered,you might want to forget it because it will rule your life.
I was hit on the back with a chain by a nationalist teacher and i was pissed off,but i want to forget it and live on,why? because i would be happier that way.
If i kept living in the past and never got over it,i would probably dwell into misery which i don’t want.
Do you get where i am going?
But there are also people who are kind and good and even though i remember,i have to think about positive side,because not everyone is out to get me
Do you think those times where i went into a chatroom and 90% of the times in mirc,people seemed to be assholes that means all americans being asshole? no,but a lot of people who use those chatrooms are kids and kids are immature,plus there are also trolls there too.
If my mom were killed in front of me,i would probably be angry at the person who did it and go get them and i wouldn’t forget,but i’d be a lot happier once i caught that son of a bitch.
I would probaly also try to move on because misery only drags you down and instead of being helpful,its detrimental to your health.
I keep hearing from my mom:I choose to be happy not because i am necessarily happy,but because its better than being miserable all the time,and finding good things in life helps makes life better,so i try to live by that motto.
Of course,there are parts of FFXIII i found interesting,just that snow is my least favorite character in the game along with snow and vanille.That leaves:Fang who i never really noticed much,but only second playthrough,i noticed that she was on the opposing team when i first saw her.I never really thought much of fang either.
I thought Lightning was ok,but she was kinda emotionless and a soldier type,which fits some of the roles she has in the game in being always taking her job seriously and cold and professional.I suppose this also has to do with her training since she was a military soldier like cloud and had to do that to be taken seriously.
This of course,left a lot to be desired at moments as well,but i didn’t even care about her backstory when she got into how she met hope and how every event lead to each character meeting.My favorite characters so far in FFXIII,are:Sazh and cid.I really like cid,for some reason,he always seems to be a really good character in the final fantasy series,well:Almost always.The only exception with that,is in FF8 where he was a complete wuss and i didn’t care for cid at all.
Also,i am trying hard not to rush to correct whatever errors i may in spelling and in comas and such.
There is usually always a bunch of trivial shit in new final fantasy that is there to add extra story.
You may think its pointless at times,but its supposed to reveal background on a character.The problem is:You don’t give a shit about the character and the thing is done in such a way,that you forget stuff or get confused with the characters background.
This is why i love things being revealed slowly and finding things that add that extra storyline without the necessity of constant bombardment of cutscene after cutscene.Remember the old days where characters talk to each other in certain scenes revealing certain info on their character when you get to a certain area about their past? remember how ff6 and ff7 did it? i kinda wish they would go back to that style rather than have 70-80% cutscene and 20-30% gameplay.
When i play a new final fantasy,i keep thinking of movies which need editing because there is far too much trivial shit in it that is thrown around.
I heard that the most important stuff is told later in the game,but honestly:I don’t know if i even care enough to know.You know that feeling where you may have a story behind the character but you aren’t intrigued by the characters so it doesn’t draw you at all? that is the feeling i get with FFXIII,and when you have a dramatic cutscene and the game tries too hard to make you feel sorry for the character,it pushes you away even farther.
I used to love the series,but now its gone to hell for me.
Hope saw his mother die right in front of him and used Snow as an outlet for his anger because he was there when his mother died. He followed him and everything ended up thrusted upon him at once — he became extremely pissed off and angry at everyone and everything as a result. Once he calmed down, he followed Lightning’s lead so he would become strong, like you said, and while he’d try to kill Snow because his 14-year-old self kicks in again, he’d still develop as a human being and at that point, he became a considerable amount more confident and less whiny. Palumpolum is also a noteworthy series of events that show just how much Hope had developed.
You are allowed to not like him but for the love of god at least be more neutral in your assessment of him.
You never forget someone dying or something painfully traumatic, and if you repress it or try to forget it comes back to haunt you and the pain that comes out after repressing it is extremely brutal. And if that traumatic event was either hte catalyst or the beginning of a series of events that go downhill extremely fast? It is *far* worse and harder to get over. In Hope’s case, he had virtually no time to act or mourn for his mother. In Raiden’s case, after the whole fuckery with the Big Shell, he finds out his girlfriend is real and pregnant then within 9 months finds out the child was a miscarriage, then he gets kidnapped, all that shit happens and within the next couple years he doesn’t have time to recover mentally from everything that happened. The Big Shell triggered some of his childhood trauma of being a childhood soldier — one that he had repressed for so long, and surfaced so painfully — then he found out he was the butt monkey of a secret terrorist organization and he was experimented on for many years by said organization. There is no melodrama with Raiden. He hasn’t had time or ability to mentally recover.
I don’t think either of us are in any right to say just what goes through a veteran or anyone’s head because of just how bad the mental state of returning soldiers tends to be. There’s a lot more to people than they say or act.
I don’t care what you say,i think he’s acting oto melodramatic and like a child.
Even if you have a story that is supposed to be sad,if you don’t give a shit about the character,and the game tries to force you to care,it ends up being melodramatic because its trying to force you by shoving dramatic cutscenes down your throat.
I felt this way with both raiden and hope and cloud.
like a child.Surprise!
Surprise!
When i was 14,i didn’t cry as much as he did.
The game is still trying to make you care the same way they tried by concentrating on naomi in mgs4,and what did it do? it made me think:man,i wish this character was likeable,then i would give a shit.
They would have run off into a corner and refused to come out.
Reality justifies Hope’s conduct.No one else has to.
The problem in the game isn’t Hope.The problem is that overall it’s a poorly structured final fantasy.
I don’t like most of the characters for most part,and i don’t care about their backstory either.
Its interesting since i cared about locke terra edgar sabim gau cyan in ff6 and cecil kain rosa cid in ff4 and even golbez or:golbeza in japanese version.
Am example of things that make you care about characters:Dragon age origins:Morrigan is a bitch so i feel both hatred for her and i like her at the same time.
I hate her because she is such a pessimist and she is just plain mean,but its also what i love about her because when you combine someone like her with a character like alistair or wynna,you get really funny moments.
Personality wise:hope spends most of his time crying and wimpering,he doesn’t do much and also:I feel the story is a bit too slowly paced with a bit too much filler.
The game seemed pretty boring for me in both the cutscenes and the gameplay.I gave a shit in metal gear solid 2 when i saw a cutscene,becausee it was interesting in the point.I won’t go into it because i don’t want to spoil it but it was very well done.Final fantasy company square enix has some good ideas,but i find they use it in the wrong way.There are many things i would change to make this game more fun,for instance:
1:I would take off the level cap thingy so i could grind till i’m strong enough to face stuff.
2:I would take off the instant heal up and give you a mana bar and allow statuses to pass stay after battles,so you think about what is going on more strategically and prepare for areas rather than just rush through as fast as possible.
3:I would put in towns and shops and maybe add a lot of places to explore.
4:I would lessen the cutscenes and make more towards little hints on people’s backstory with cutscenes there when you go to certain places to learn about them,rather than bombarded with cutscene after cutscene.This game isn’t a game at all,its an interactive movie.
5:I would add more sidequests during the whole game.(maybe i should try FFXII just out of curiosity hmm.)
These things would surely game the game more bearable
Anyways:This is my opinion respect it angry wolf/mercenary raven,you don’t like it:Well tough.
I hate her because she is such a pessimist and she is just plain mean,but its also what i love about her because when you combine someone like her with a character like alistair or wynna,you get really funny moments.
Only going to comment on this part of your post Nostalgia gamer. Morrigan isn’t a pessimist, she just has a different outlook on things than the rest of the party. She values power more than anything else, Hell… even when you’re romancing her, she makes it clear that she isn’t interested in any emotional attachment to the Warden. The only other character which comes to my mind which is similar to her, is Raistlin Majere from the Dragonlance novellas. Not inherently evil, but not above using anyone/anything to get ahead in their own agenda. I admit, having her in your party, no matter who else you have with you, always brings on the grins due to her comments and banter with the others. In Witch Hunt, you ultimately see more of her… compassionate side (she admits herself she’s a selfish lover, wanting the Warden all to herself).
Regarding the rest of your post… I agree with some things which I’ve raised myself earlier in this thread, or were referred to in that review I’ve provided links to in my posts here.
Regarding the rest of your post… I agree with some things which I’ve raised myself earlier in this thread, or were referred to in that review I’ve provided links to in my posts here.
I was earlier talking about character development because i was judging this game and ever since ff7,i have lost interest in most of the characters in the newer games.
Anyways,back to FFXIII:
I was talking to my mother about character development since she reads more than i,and she agreed with me that if you don’t like the character,its a sign of bad storytelling.
First you have to make the player care about the character in some way or another.
I was also thinking about this since the donald e westlake books have stories that are well written and the characters are well defined and you like the character for what he is or at least:interested in that character.
When i was playing FF7 for an example,the character that i was most interested in in the villains area,was in fact:Hojo and shinra and rufus.I think the reason for this,was because he was clearly evil and not insane and knew the consecuences of his actions and chose to do it for his own selfish reasons.Even if hojo was insane,he was clearly messed up before inserting that jenova cell into him.
The relations to what i said earlier to this part:
In FFXIII,i got this feeling that the villain was your typical run of the mill villain i’ve seen a thousand times.When i saw him,i immediately thought of comic book villains who are clich??? to the max in dialogue and you can literally predict what is going to happen word for word.
In fact,in FFXIII,there were no surprises for me at all,i pretty much predicted everything in the game and not interested at all.If a character is forgettable and not much defined,then its a clear sign of bad writing.
I don’t find any of the characters memorable and i forget their name,so it left no impression on me and nor did the story.I think if i had remembered the story,then it would have been a clear sign of the story being so amazing,that this conversation may have never happened.
Another example:In suikoden 2,i actually liked the characters and remembered the story really well because it left an impression on my mind that i ended up playing it over and over and remember the story well,but FFXIII is not one of those games.I think whatever square had is lost and i really don’t know if they will get it back.
I don’t like most of the characters for most part,and i don’t care about their backstory either.
Its interesting since i cared about locke terra edgar sabim gau cyan in ff6 and cecil kain rosa cid in ff4 and even golbez or:golbeza in japanese version.
Am example of things that make you care about characters:Dragon age origins:Morrigan is a bitch so i feel both hatred for her and i like her at the same time.
I hate her because she is such a pessimist and she is just plain mean,but its also what i love about her because when you combine someone like her with a character like alistair or wynna,you get really funny moments.
Personality wise:hope spends most of his time crying and wimpering,he doesn’t do much and also:I feel the story is a bit too slowly paced with a bit too much filler.
The game seemed pretty boring for me in both the cutscenes and the gameplay.I gave a shit in metal gear solid 2 when i saw a cutscene,becausee it was interesting in the point.I won’t go into it because i don’t want to spoil it but it was very well done.Final fantasy company square enix has some good ideas,but i find they use it in the wrong way.There are many things i would change to make this game more fun,for instance:
1:I would take off the level cap thingy so i could grind till i’m strong enough to face stuff.
2:I would take off the instant heal up and give you a mana bar and allow statuses to pass stay after battles,so you think about what is going on more strategically and prepare for areas rather than just rush through as fast as possible.
3:I would put in towns and shops and maybe add a lot of places to explore.
4:I would lessen the cutscenes and make more towards little hints on people’s backstory with cutscenes there when you go to certain places to learn about them,rather than bombarded with cutscene after cutscene.This game isn’t a game at all,its an interactive movie.
5:I would add more sidequests during the whole game.(maybe i should try FFXII just out of curiosity hmm.)
These things would surely game the game more bearable
Anyways:This is my opinion respect it angry wolf/mercenary raven,you don’t like it:Well tough.
Heck I agree with you about the pacing of the game and the fact the game developers didn’t find a way to make the characters more likeable without making them overtly emotional.I feel they overcompensated for FFXII where the characters came across as emotionless.
However, I relate to what Hope has gone through for personal reasons.How many of us could have survived in europe for exa mple during WW1 or 2 and seen our parents killed and friends killed before our eyes.So you’re way too critical of Hope imo.
As far as your opinion goes you are entitled to have one and I respect that.I try to respect opposing views even when I disagree with them.
shrugs.
Supposedly FFXIII-2 will address at least some of the criticisms of FFXIII such as a lack of towns and a lack of exploration.
So obviously Square was listening.
I don’t think so,first:You have to care about the character and then it makes for an interesting story.
If you got a story with uninteresting character going through uninteresting moments,you got for a lackbuster character development.I don’t think they were particularly well written,because i’m not the only person who finds the characters rather shallow and uninteresting..
shrugs.
Supposedly FFXIII-2 will address at least some of the criticisms of FFXIII such as a lack of towns and a lack of exploration.
So obviously Square was listening.
Maybe,or they may end up with no story and character development and all gameplay.
I never played FFXII so i can’t really speak for everyone,but i heard some complaints about the real time gameplay and the story and the characters.
Some people seem to dislike penelope and vaan from what i heard,but i haven’t heard a whole lot about it.
I agreed got this thing with high expectations now…….
i’m not going to write a report but… the story is ok, but is not like i’m going to finish it again.
Sazh Katzroy is a great character! indeed.
But the rest of the crew just helps me get depressed
It all comes down to opinion really. You say they lost their magic. I say it’s still there. Neither of us is wrong. It’s just that Square catered to my side of the audience this time.
But I have to admit. The non-main characters kinda just came-and-went, with no mentions after that. Really bizarre writing.
PS Sometimes characters can be ‘saved’ from hatedom with good writing. The most recent example would be Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory. Very non-sequitur I know, but it’s the best example I can think of right now. Season 1 I couldn’t stand him. When he got on I groaned. Then Season 2 onward I came to like him. Eventually he’s my favourite among the whole cast.
I woldnt mind seeing a chrono cross remake or a second part of that…but not 13 dont keep 13 going..its an evil number..an the game is evil
As for Final Fantasy 13, it is a simple East/West split at the moment. People who insist the game is a failure and has been poorly received are ignoring the fact that the game was massively popular in the East, and is considered one of the best entries of the series over there. The game doesn’t suit the current climate in the West (for critics or fans), but neither do any other JRPGs. There are a few holdouts here in the West who still like JRPGs (like me), but we’re an endangered species.
The game does have its flaws and it isn’t an example of the series at its best, but I still think the current climate is preventing it from getting a fair hearing over here. For me, it occupies a middle ground of quality, being neither truly great nor terrible. But neither side of this debate is willing to budge, so the West has dismissed it as trash, whilst the East are placing it on a pedestal and worshipping it.
When a game genre is not ‘in vogue’, then it becomes so much harder to make any kind of mark. The brand name of Final Fantasy helps to get noticed, but equally incurs the wrath of people who normally would let such a game go by without comment – no other JRPGs do nearly as well as Final Fantasy over here, but no others ever get singled out for hate either. The high profile of the franchise forces people who don’t like this genre to voice an opinion on it – and its obvious what that opinion will be.
But still, you can’t let Final Fantasy 13 off the hook in any way. As jaded as I am, I still like to think that a truly quality game will win over even the toughest of crowds. And this was not that game, and I think as Revan said, you would have be in some pretty serious denial to call Final Fantasy 13 a great game. It didn’t win hearts and minds because frankly it didn’t deserve to. I don’t think it deserves all the hate either (because I think its a good game), but this was never going to be a game that would change people minds on the series, or win over new fans. It just isn’t good enough for that, in the way that a KOTOR or a Mass Effect were.
I might not, but we’ll see in a few days when I get it.
I don’t even want to see another of those ugly adamantoise for a while.
And this was not that game, and I think as Revan said, you would have be in some pretty serious denial to call Final Fantasy 13 a great game.Denial? Someone is in "denial" because they have a differing opinion to you? I give a fairer review to people who are asking about it (in other words, what the critics say, though I don’t say it mockingly) but I thought it was a "great" game myself.
If you actually knew as much about my opinion of the game as you seem to think, you’d know I consider FF13 a very good game. I don’t consider it a Great game, but then I consider very, very few games to be truly Great. Most games are vastly overscored, and the word great is thrown around too easily. And I’m guilty of this too – I thought FF13 was a very fine experience but not earth shatteringly, life changingly brilliant like I found FF7 for example. But I’m sure I’ve described Ff13 as great myself from time to time.
But that’s just a figure of speech. What I was driving at was that I don’t consider this to be a ‘Great’ game – as in one of the true classics of the series, a game changer that reignited people’s love for the series en masse. It was ‘just’ another really good FF game. And for me, that isn’t enough at this moment. The series needs more than that, because IMO its coasting on its name alone at this point. The series has such a pedigree that ‘Very Good’ is actually pretty poor by the high standards we expect.
When a series delivers a truly classic installment that gets people flocking back and staying back (i.e not buying it for nostalgia and trading it in a day or so later), it injects energy and enthusiasm to the developers. It builds up momentum that inspires people to keep improving, keep trying to go one better than perfection. For me, Square don’t have this at the moment.
When I say these things, I am telling it like I see it. Nobody has the time to put IMO after every single thing they say. I’m perfectly happy for you to consider FF13 a great game – and I said as much to Johnny Mercyside on his review thread the other day. But people are allowed to have strong opinions and believe in what they say. The idea that we should always be tip-toeing around each other, qualifying everything we say with IMO every time we say anything, just isn’t me. And I don’t see a problem with that – but if I was saying something like ‘Unlike Mercenary Raven who is in complete denial… etc etc’ then that would obviously be out of line, and unprevoked.
My statement is simply a warts and all expression of my feelings on the matter. But its still just my opinion, as anyone will realise. Its not automatically true just because I said it, neither is it automatically wrong. It can be read as a challenge, a ‘Prove me Wrong’ statement, and I have no problem with it being read that way. This is a forum, a place for debate after all.
Anyway, that’s what I have to say about that. If you’re not satisfied, then there’s not much I can do about it except to apologise if you really did take offence. Its my style to tell it like I see it, and sometimes that leads to declarations like the above. But I see nothing gravely insulting in what I said – if people are serious about defending their standpoint, I’m happy to debate. If not, I don’t go around pointing specific fingers and saying ‘You! Your argument is pathetic!’ Not unless they’ve seriously provoked me, anyway.
Especially not when we both really like the game!
Although I guess there’s a semantics war at place here between "great" and "very good"; Final Fantasy or not I truly found much of the characters and plot to be great though it took a little while to appreciate it; my feelings are the same towards FF8- I feel like nobody else would take the time I take to try and give certain plots a fair chance, and you can see over the course of a year that I went from someone who said "the orphanage scene was bullshit" to "wait… it should’ve been built up better, but it sheds a ton of light on a bunch of Squall’s personality traits".
And the gameplay I thought was brilliant to begin with, and a bunch of the arbitrary limits [save party leader death = game over, which made sense for a little while but not once you had your full party] were meant to keep within the way the battle system worked. But I still don’t think it’s entirely fair to say that someone is in "denial" if it’s a good game, especially considering the amount of jadedness/over criticalness of the fanbase.
It was more annoying than actual hard.
I beat the final barthandalus battle and orphan on the first try
Overall:The game wasn-t that hard,it was more of the same repeated hour after hour.
I found it hard to care about the actual gameplay.
Some games are an absolute delight to play.I think one of the most important aspects of a game,is its gameplay.
The story is also extremely important in an rpg,otherwise you pretty much have a first person fighting game with no story to lure you in.
You can get away with a lack of story if the gameplay is amazing enough to make you forget about it for a while,but you will eventually be thinking:Why am i doing this again?
There’s also the fact that in the run-up to the first fight against Bart and the fight against Cid, there aren’t many decent places to grind. Certainly nothing as grinder friendly as Pulse is later on, giving you a bonaza of levelling opportunities, different foes, places to explore, quests to do etc etc. But in the run-up to those boss fights, there is nothing so grand. Just long slogs through a couple of corridors and only a small bestiary of enemies to face off against. Those areas are neither fun to grind in, nor are they particularly EXP intensive.
Merc R:
Look, I’m not denying that the rose tinted glasses do factor in, but I base my opinions squarely on how I felt playing the game. I’m not someone who feels the series has gone for ages without a classic installment (FF12 is one of my favourites, and I really enjoyed X-2 as well). But I do feel that the series has kind of hit a ceiling in its current form. I feel that rather than adopt big changes, the series needs to just do what its doing on a whole new scale. Hit us so hard with how epic and ambitious it is that people have no choice but to sit up and take notice. That doesn’t mean it needs to be dumbed down, but for me bigger scale and truly edge of the seat thrills and spills, along with some attention on the character front is the way forward.
I don’t really have a problem with the characters of FF13 (I like all of them really), but I equally don’t think they stood any real chance of winning over any but the most committed JRPG fans. There are examples of good characters in JRPGs out there that do appeal to western audiences (Nier from the game of the same name was well regarded as I remember, and I certainly liked him, to name but one example). Final Fantasy is the biggest, best funded, most high profile JRPG – I really think that if JRPGs are to find a way to survive and get back to prominence, Final Fantasy has to play a major role. There’s more at stake at the moment than just the series itself IMO.
I really enjoyed FF13, and I’m looking forward to the sequel. I’m just waiting for *that* game, the JRPG that defines the genre in this gen, that really blows my socks off and makes me hungry again for the genre. Because despite many fine titles like Eternal Sonata, Nier, Tales of Vesperia, Final Fantasy 13 and Cross Edge (hey, I liked it!), I don’t think we’ve seen the game that we could all agree was *the* one for this gen.
As for opinions… look, I’m not looking for a fight, but I’m not going to run away from what I believe. I consider Revan a good friend, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with expressing opinions in a forthright manner (something which I have to say that I feel he has been treated very unfairly for at times). But I appreciate that some people are put off by such debating styles, especially when they become flame wars. I would argue though, that such things are not what I (and I believe Revan too) ever intend. The internet is a very easy medium for tempers to flare, and strong opinions will always run the risk of inflaming tensions, but as I stated earlier, I don’t see that the alternative of everyone creeping about, frightened to death of giving an opnion on anything in case it upsets someone, would be preferable.
I’m going to leave it there, because I don’t want us to get sidetracked (particularly on a subject this sensitive). Revan himself has commented that we could do with moderators around here, to step in and tell both sides when they/we are out of line. I think that would be the best solution, and perhaps someone could put in a word to try and get some law and order installed around here? Because I would hope that all of us would rather spend our time debating games, rather than fighting each other in the street.
Xenoblade Chronicles turned out to be that game for a lot of people. I didn’t enjoy it as much as Final Fantasy 12 though, which I replayed around the same time I played Xenoblade. I compare the two because they’re similar in a few ways.
Also 100% fact coming up right here
Final Fantasy 13 was full of way too much melodrama and characters talking without saying anything. SE should cut that junk out and make their future titles more like 9 or 12 in terms of story and characters.
I was beginning to a feel a little optimistic towards 13-2 until I played the demo. Lightning’s narration in the demo is so bad holy smokes I do not like that character. The SMT style monster capture/fusion interested me, but the battle system is still really centred around that stagger mechanic which I find to be a chore (at least with some monsters). Also, the aesthetic still doesn’t do much for me. I ended up turning the demo off after running through hallways that looked similar to those I ran through in 13.
So at this point I’m less interested, but I’ll still probably end up playing the full game eventually. I guess I was expecting the game to be sugary sweet like X-2 was (and I really like that game), but it looks like it will just be more 13. It’s probably way too soon for me to make a call like that, though.
Yes, I had heard that Xenoblade was very good, but I don’t have a Wii unfortunately. And whilst I have not been above buying a console for 1 must have game in the past, I really, really don’t like motion controls. I just don’t want to buy anything to do with motion control, as its like I’m endorsing it, and encouraging these companies to keep doing it. I’m just 1 man of course, but it seems like I’m not alone on this. Hopefully, we can soon get past all this motion control/3D nonsense.
The melodrama is a difficult issue, because with what happens to characters in RPGs of all kinds, it often feels like the story skims over what should be massive emotional trauma. The characters in FF13 know they are almost certainly going to die, and in a terrifyingly painful way that will leave them still aware, but in a wretched, debased state. Sazh has lost his son, and even if he finds him, knows that the same fate awaits his boy. Its not like this drama is out of place, given the circumstances.
But let’s face it, it gets really annoying when characters are constantly in a funk like this. Same in games like Dragon Age, where Fenris and Anders won’t stop going on about slavery and mage inequality etc. They are weighty issues that would permanently scar a character’s outlook on life, but it doesn’t make it any easier for us to listen to every single time they open their mouths. Meanwhile, people have no problem with guys like Commander Shepard who learns he’s just been resurrected from death – no reaction, beyond a momentary ‘Really… huh.’ Given the whole essence of what it is to actually be an alien species and think like them in a split second – fine, apart from a temporary headache. Strong willed is one thing, but…
It undermines the story if characters don’t have any emotional reactions, not least because characters without flaws and fears etc are not believable. But banging on about these issues, even when it is entirely appropriate that they do so, loses us as players very quickly. Obsidian poke fun at how whingy the crew in KOTOR 1 were, by having HK-47 mimic them mockingly in KOTOR 2, expressing his utter disgust for their melodramatic drippery. So its no surprise that people love characters who have little to no emotional baggage or who get it over it immediately (Mordin for example in ME2, like all Salarians has a biological ability to process emotions faster and put them behind him, making a great character all the better.
As for Lightning… Well, Ali Hillis may be a beloved voice actor to many, but I’ve always felt that she’s a bit overrated. Her husky voice and oddly deliberate and stilted intonation at times swings wildly between charming and just embarassing IMO.
As for Lightning… Well, Ali Hillis may be a beloved voice actor to many, but I’ve always felt that she’s a bit overrated. Her husky voice and oddly deliberate and stilted intonation at times swings wildly between charming and just embarassing IMO.[/QUOTE]
Hey vrykolas? what about oblivion? Most characters are very bland,except sheogorath.
Sheogorath is the only character i actually like,and that is because of his extreme personality.
Oblivion is a game that is about gameplay,not story.While there are story parts,its very small.
Also:I-m hearing more and more bad things about american rpgs:
I heard bad things about skyrim being linear,and having more cutscenes and taking longer to actually get to the class.I hear that the lockpick system and fight system are closer to fallout style gameplay.
I heard bad things about mass effect 3,but i can-t remember them all.I think it was something about the shop system and skills.
I hear really bad things about dragon age 2,like:Being waay more linear than dragon age origins,and the characters being far less emotion,and less interactivity.
i heard fable 3 isn-t good,but i don-t know why.
I-m trying to be careful.
I hear mixed feelings about kotor.
But yeah, you are *absolutely* right about the ‘characters’ (if you can even call them that) in Oblivion, Skyrim etc etc. Dragon Age 2 is more constricted than DAO (not many different locations at all), the story is of extremely variable quality, and the party is not one of Bioware’s best. Talk of Mass Effect 3 (or did you mean 2?) is fairly pointless at this stage, because it isn’t even out yet! If you meant ME2 though, then yes I have many problems with the upgrades and levelling up (but I heard this has been addressed in 3, so fingers crossed on that).
On a side note, I wasn’t happy at all the cybernetic upgrades, skeletal reinforcing, skin weave upgrading etc in ME2. The mods in ME1 were made to your armour, and biotic implants were the only real cybernetics that your character might have. In ME2, you’re replacing whole chunks of your body with tech (it happens to you at the start, but then you continue to do it yourself throughout the game, and Shepard never even comments on this, even though its a big step to start cramming your body with tech!) The fact that it all gets done with no apparent need for surgery of any kind is also bizarre.
ME2’s introduction was stupid too.
And the Lazarus project is just a daft idea, particularly as they forget all about it immediatly.
I really liked fable 2.
I haven-t tried fable 3 yet,so i can-t comment
But yeah, you are *absolutely* right about the ‘characters’ (if you can even call them that) in Oblivion, Skyrim etc etc. Dragon Age 2 is more constricted than DAO (not many different locations at all), the story is of extremely variable quality, and the party is not one of Bioware’s best. Talk of Mass Effect 3 (or did you mean 2?) is fairly pointless at this stage, because it isn’t even out yet! If you meant ME2 though, then yes I have many problems with the upgrades and levelling up (but I heard this has been addressed in 3, so fingers crossed on that).
I think the quests in oblivion were great.
the dialogue and dungeons weren-t that great.I absolutely loved the quests though.
I just finished the shivering isles quest,and became an all powerful madgod who could control the weather.
I keep ending up playing oblivion over and over just for the quests,so you can imagine how much i like the quests.
I also really really like the dialogue in dragon age origins.
On a side note, I wasn’t happy at all the cybernetic upgrades, skeletal reinforcing, skin weave upgrading etc in ME2. The mods in ME1 were made to your armour, and biotic implants were the only real cybernetics that your character might have. In ME2, you’re replacing whole chunks of your body with tech (it happens to you at the start, but then you continue to do it yourself throughout the game, and Shepard never even comments on this, even though its a big step to start cramming your body with tech!) The fact that it all gets done with no apparent need for surgery of any kind is also bizarre.
I was talking about me3 rumors.
As for me2,i heard some bad comments,but i hear that me3 is worse.
I think it was me2 that i heard that you couldn-t explore the land,and instead used a satelite and checked each area of the world painstakingly.
I heard in me1,you could drive like some sort of vehicle.
ME2 is more streamlined/dumbed down (take your pick on which of those you believe). The game is broken up into lots of small bite sized chunks, there are fewer areas, its much easier to get from A to B, levelling up is scaled back in importance to the point of near absurdity, the upgrades to weapons, armour are all passive, leaving a very small pool of powers, and some of those are passive skills that just have to be activated once (its basically just a 3D shooter with some talking bits). Its the definition of an ‘Actionised Sequel’. It has its moments, but to me the change in tone is too much for me to enjoy it as much as ME1.
The planet scanning gets singled out, because it is so different to everything else (its really slow, compared to the greased lightning speed of everything else in the game). It comes across as simply being there to pad the game out, because they needed some way for you to be able to get resources, but didn’t want to include the Mako. Bioware have a very bad record on this kind of thing (i.e when they try to do something other than the standard game experience). Their mini-games and driving, turret, hacking sections are always a chore. The only one I enjoyed was the ‘1942’ style vertical shooter in Jade Empire.
As for ME3… I’ll reserve judgement until its out. Too much doom and gloom about an upcoming can become a self fulfilling prophecy. You convince yourself you aren’t going to like it, and end up doing just that. I hope its a good game, and I want to go into it with as open a mind as I can.
Hope hardly changes,i mean:He whines about his problems,gets to chapter 13,when he finally confronts and deals with,and forgives snow.
Snow is an idiot,and not interesting either.
Lightning:I didn-t mind her at the beginning when she gave the cold shoulder to everybody,and especially was harsh.I think the reason,was because i kinda expect that kind of thing from a military officer dealing with a critical situation.It would do no good to stop and cry when trying to escape.Later on though,she started to become melodramatic and whine a lot.This was really when she started to grate on me,leaving fang sazh and vanille.
Vanille is exactly like selphie,and for that i don-t like her.But i would rather have a selphie clone than hear the constant melodrama.
Sazh was interesting when we see him try to commit suicide.His whole life was falling apart.His son was turned to a crystal and selphie,i mean vanille was responsible.He was too cowardly to commit suicide,and too cowardly to fight her.
Fang:She was dull and forgettable.
Cid raines:I liked him when he was trying to change the world by killing your team.At the second time when he has his chance to get out,he doesn-t,and by the third time when we tell him that we are on the same side and trying to kill barthandalus,we give up.
Overall:i-d give it a 3 out of 10.
The story really doesn-t move much,and it stands still for a really long time.Even when it does move,it never gets interesting.
To me,FFXIII had nothing to ponder,nothing to stimulate the mind in story.The story was nothing spectacular,and the dialogue was nothing spectacular either.
The gameplay was lackbuster,so all these things had nothing to fall back on.
HK-47 had the same attitude in the first KotOR, addressing everyone as Meatbags and wanting to blast everything. So it wasn’t Obsidian poking fun at the crew in KotOR, they were just keeping HK-47 in character.
I heard bad things about mass effect 3,but i can-t remember them all.I think it was something about the shop system and skills.
Considering Mass Effect 3 isn’t even out yet (March 6th for the US, March 8th for Australia), I’d wait to see what it’s actually like before tearing into it.
I hear really bad things about dragon age 2,like:Being waay more linear than dragon age origins,and the characters being far less emotion,and less interactivity.
Dragon Age 2 is a good game in it’s own right, just rather small in comparison to Dragon Age Origins. Some of the characters are returning characters from Dragon Age: Origins and Awakening, and from my perspective, are still pretty true to their previous incarnations.
i heard fable 3 isn-t good,but i don-t know why.
Had a lot of glitches and faults… a LOT.
I hear mixed feelings about kotor.
Like what?
FFXIII was really bad,and here is why i think it was bad:
Hope hardly changes,i mean:He whines about his problems,gets to chapter 13,when he finally confronts and deals with,and forgives snow.
Snow is an idiot,and not interesting either.
Lightning:I didn-t mind her at the beginning when she gave the cold shoulder to everybody,and especially was harsh.I think the reason,was because i kinda expect that kind of thing from a military officer dealing with a critical situation.It would do no good to stop and cry when trying to escape.Later on though,she started to become melodramatic and whine a lot.This was really when she started to grate on me,leaving fang sazh and vanille.
Vanille is exactly like selphie,and for that i don-t like her.But i would rather have a selphie clone than hear the constant melodrama.
Sazh was interesting when we see him try to commit suicide.His whole life was falling apart.His son was turned to a crystal and selphie,i mean vanille was responsible.He was too cowardly to commit suicide,and too cowardly to fight her.
Fang:She was dull and forgettable.
Cid raines:I liked him when he was trying to change the world by killing your team.At the second time when he has his chance to get out,he doesn-t,and by the third time when we tell him that we are on the same side and trying to kill barthandalus,we give up.
Overall:i-d give it a 3 out of 10.
The story really doesn-t move much,and it stands still for a really long time.Even when it does move,it never gets interesting.
To me,FFXIII had nothing to ponder,nothing to stimulate the mind in story.The story was nothing spectacular,and the dialogue was nothing spectacular either.
The gameplay was lackbuster,so all these things had nothing to fall back on.
I still think Yahtzee Croshaw’s review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation is rather apt in his analysis of the game. Zero Punctuation – Final Fantasy XIII Review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
There is just one problem with his review:He never even got to the 20 hour mark.
I beat the whole game,so i can say with a clear mind:I really cant stand the characters story or gameplay.
The gameplay in the early levels is horrible,All you do,is auto attack during most fights early on.It isn-t until chapter 13 where you actually get to explore,even then:It becomes a simple short fetch quest in an uninteresting place to explore.
Couldn-t they add more to their lands to explore and things to find to make it interesting? i don-t care if they had to cut out a lot and shorten it to get to the point,in fact:It would probably be better that way.
What about the ending? It was a massive disappointment.
EVerything becomes solved,sazhs child becomes uncrystalized,and same goes for snows girlfriend.
Everyone becomes a regular human and live happily ever after.It just felt like there could have been more.I was hoping for so much more from the ending,after a really nice fight with the villain(barthandalus) and (orphan)
Best thing about the final bosses,is their boss theme.
I don’t give a damn if the ending is ORGASMIC…game is STILL shit.
I don’t give a damn if the ending is ORGASMIC…game is STILL shit.
It is shit.
I put so many hours into the game,and in the end i got sick to death of it.
I have no desire to ever play it again.
I was more bored than when I play most Tales games.
I still think Yahtzee Croshaw’s review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation is rather apt in his analysis of the game. Zero Punctuation – Final Fantasy XIII Review (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
While i like some of yahtzees reviews,i have a problem with yahtzee himself:
1:He doesnt seem like an rpg fan.I watched quite a bit of his videos,and he seems like he is mostly an fps person.If you like action,and don-t care about story,rpgs are not really your thing.
2:He speaks too quickly:He needs to slow down a bit and take a breather.
On the other hand:I agree with him on mgs4 story being a bit boring at times,but it does have some good bits.I think that the problem,is that it has a lot of parts that felt like they were very unecessary in mgs4,more so than any other game in the series.
So? If a person dislikes the game from what they’ve played, are they supposed to sit there and continue playing a game they dislike? What’s the point in that?
I beat the whole game,so i can say with a clear mind:I really cant stand the characters story or gameplay.
I usually complete a game myself and then base my opinion on it, however in the case of FFXIII, I can’t do that. Look through earlier pages in this thread to find out why I feel the way I do about this installment in the FF series.
The gameplay in the early levels is horrible,All you do,is auto attack during most fights early on.It isn-t until chapter 13 where you actually get to explore,even then:It becomes a simple short fetch quest in an uninteresting place to explore.
That is bad game design. Play through a boring game only to have the action ‘pick up’ towards the end?
While i like some of yahtzees reviews,i have a problem with yahtzee himself:
1:He doesnt seem like an rpg fan.I watched quite a bit of his videos,and he seems like he is mostly an fps person.If you like action,and don-t care about story,rpgs are not really your thing.
Actually he is a RPG fan, he’s stated in that review that his favorite was FFVI. I don’t know where you get the idea he’s a ‘FPS person’ either and what’s wrong with liking action? However I will say that with the direction BioWare and EA are taking Mass Effect 3, with the gamer being able to choose which of three modes to play the game with: Action Mode, with a emphasis on the action and less on the story. Story Mode, with little action. Role Playing mode, the same mode the previous titles were.
2:He speaks too quickly:He needs to slow down a bit and take a breather.
That’s just the way he does his reviews. Always has and always will. You get used to it.
On the other hand:I agree with him on mgs4 story being a bit boring at times,but it does have some good bits.I think that the problem,is that it has a lot of parts that felt like they were very unecessary in mgs4,more so than any other game in the series.
Never played MGS4 (as I don’t have a PS3) so I can’t comment about that. I will say that I agree 100% with his negative reviews for Star Wars The Force Unleashed I and II as well as his reviews of Saints Row 2 and The Third. However, this isn’t really the topic to talk about other games as it is meant to be a discussion regarding FFXIII.
I usually complete a game myself and then base my opinion on it, however in the case of FFXIII, I can’t do that. Look through earlier pages in this thread to find out why I feel the way I do about this installment in the FF series.
That is bad game design. Play through a boring game only to have the action ‘pick up’ towards the end?
He wasn-t able to give a complete analysis of the game.
Heck,i played through ff8 and hated the game quite a bit,but i forced myself to go on just for completion sake,and the ability to give a full review.
A review becomes obsolete if you havent at least completed it once and know everything there is to know about the game,otherwise,how can you review it?
On the other hand,i also feel his hatred towards ff7
Actually he is a RPG fan, he’s stated in that review that his favorite was FFVI. I don’t know where you get the idea he’s a ‘FPS person’ either and what’s wrong with liking action? However I will say that with the direction BioWare and EA are taking Mass Effect 3, with the gamer being able to choose which of three modes to play the game with: Action Mode, with a emphasis on the action and less on the story. Story Mode, with little action. Role Playing mode, the same mode the previous titles were.
I saw yahtzee playing a ton of fps games,and liking the monotonous non story driven action.It almost makes it feel as if he prefers fps games.
Maybe i am also a little bit biased towards it because i prefer rps,i dunno.
That’s just the way he does his reviews. Always has and always will. You get used to it.
I still think he could take a breather or two once in a while.
Never played MGS4 (as I don’t have a PS3) so I can’t comment about that. I will say that I agree 100% with his negative reviews for Star Wars The Force Unleashed I and II as well as his reviews of Saints Row 2 and The Third. However, this isn’t really the topic to talk about other games as it is meant to be a discussion regarding FFXIII.
What news have you got on FFXIII 2? I have a bad feeling that square enix will just lower itself further,and pull away from games we actually want to play.
Then by that logic, that case can also be drawn up against ALL professional game reviewers as I’m pretty damn sure that none of them would of been able to complete a game they were paid to review due to time constraints.
Heck,i played through ff8 and hated the game quite a bit,but i forced myself to go on just for completion sake,and the ability to give a full review.
You hate FFVIII and that’s your choice. I quite enjoy it and I have my reasons for that. Forcing yourself to finish a game you dislike is rather pedantic and foolish. Why waste your time and money on that? I admit, I’ve done that in the past myself… and regretting wasting my time like that.
A review becomes obsolete if you havent at least completed it once and know everything there is to know about the game,otherwise,how can you review it?
I disagree. Completely a game may allowed one to give a informed review, however each person is different. Speaking for myself, I hate FFXIII (No, I won’t regurgitate what I’ve already posted in this thread. Want to know why I hate this game, go read my earlier posts) and I have valid reasons for that (valid reasons in my own mind that is). A majority of professional reviewers have a knack for forming a opinion and therefore make a review of said game from what they’ve played of it. True Yahtzee never finished the game, however he DID play some of it and can make his own opinion (and therefore a review) of the game based off what he has played.
On the other hand,i also feel his hatred towards ff7
A lot of people share that.
What news have you got on FFXIII 2? I have a bad feeling that square enix will just lower itself further,and pull away from games we actually want to play.
Why would I know that? I think the thread created by Crysta in the General Final Fantasy subforum, Anyone played the FF13-2 demo yet? (Thread 108696) and my response in that thread adequately explains my position on that.
It wasn-t the story i hated,it was the gameplay aspect.The story to me did seem stupid at many parts,but it was entertaining to watch the corny love story advance.
I disagree. Completely a game may allowed one to give a informed review, however each person is different. Speaking for myself, I hate FFXIII (No, I won’t regurgitate what I’ve already posted in this thread. Want to know why I hate this game, go read my earlier posts) and I have valid reasons for that (valid reasons in my own mind that is). A majority of professional reviewers have a knack for forming a opinion and therefore make a review of said game from what they’ve played of it. True Yahtzee never finished the game, however he DID play some of it and can make his own opinion (and therefore a review) of the game based off what he has played.
I finished FFXIII for completion sake,because i want to give a full review of it and my thoughts.If i hadn-t finished it,all i would have is biased opinion that isnt complete.How do you know you won-t like it if you dont try it out? Sure,you can hear stuff,about a game,but who is to say you wont enjoy certain aspects? That is also one reason why i am holding out from having an opinion on games like kotor.I want to try it out myself so i can actually respectfully say what i think.
A lot of people share that.
A lot of people like ff7 too,so i dont mind that either,so long as they dont rub it in my face
Why would I know that? I think the thread created by Crysta in the General Final Fantasy subforum, Anyone played the FF13-2 demo yet? (Thread 108696) and my response in that thread adequately explains my position on that.
Then I’m in the minority who did enjoy FFVIII, even the gameplay aspect. The story, imo, worked well and I did enjoy it… for my own reasons.
I finished FFXIII for completion sake,because i want to give a full review of it and my thoughts.If i hadn-t finished it,all i would have is biased opinion that isnt complete.How do you know you won-t like it if you dont try it out? Sure,you can hear stuff,about a game,but who is to say you wont enjoy certain aspects? That is also one reason why i am holding out from having an opinion on games like kotor.I want to try it out myself so i can actually respectfully say what i think.
Well I couldn’t finish FFXIII, even for completion sake. I didn’t enjoy what I played of it and after what I’ve seen (on youtube) regarding the later acts, imo I didn’t miss much at all. Each person has differing opinions and some can form a opinion on what they’ve played and based it off such. I KNOW I won’t enjoy finding out what happens to Female Cloud and co/etc/etc. From what I’ve played of FFXIII (and on my third and LAST attempt at playing it, I got to Chapter 9), I hated it… and regretted spending money on buying it again for a third time! If there are some who enjoy it, so be it… but I would think that by all the negative responses to XIII on other forums/Youtube/etc/etc, that XIII wasn’t the great hit SE was expecting.
A lot of people like ff7 too,so i dont mind that either,so long as they dont rub it in my face
To quote a former member/moderator, Neo Xzhan, when it comes to describing FFVII:
See, it’s like religion. It’s not God I hate, but his fanclub.
Speaking for myself, I agree with that 100% as the majority (Not all 100% of it’s fans… just 99.999% of them) of FFVII’s fans hav no desire to play anything else apart from VII or they compare every other game available (Even those of different genres) with VII and flame others for even saying one thing wrong about VII or it’s compilation.
Me too, FF8 was a classic for me too! FF9 i did found weird the battle system since i started on 8 but but the history got me so a started to playin ff9 too!
Also, i started playing the XIII-2 and looks like a HUGE improvement !
Well I couldn’t finish FFXIII, even for completion sake. I didn’t enjoy what I played of it and after what I’ve seen (on youtube) regarding the later acts, imo I didn’t miss much at all. Each person has differing opinions and some can form a opinion on what they’ve played and based it off such. I KNOW I won’t enjoy finding out what happens to Female Cloud and co/etc/etc. From what I’ve played of FFXIII (and on my third and LAST attempt at playing it, I got to Chapter 9), I hated it… and regretted spending money on buying it again for a third time! If there are some who enjoy it, so be it… but I would think that by all the negative responses to XIII on other forums/Youtube/etc/etc, that XIII wasn’t the great hit SE was expecting.
The problem with not completing it,is that you won-t have a full detail of the story,unless you decide to read it online
The gameplay can change in a game as well,but in FFXIIIs case:Not likely.Its sad that it didn’t measure up in any way to the previous games.This is also one reason why i prefer to play demos:You get a better grasp on what is fun for you,and what is not fun for you.Watching a trailer of a game,is not what i would consider a demo.All it is,is a technical video of graphics,but not of gameplay.
To quote a former member/moderator, Neo Xzhan, when it comes to describing FFVII:
Speaking for myself, I agree with that 100% as the majority (Not all 100% of it’s fans… just 99.999% of them) of FFVII’s fans hav no desire to play anything else apart from VII or they compare every other game available (Even those of different genres) with VII and flame others for even saying one thing wrong about VII or it’s compilation.
Its a good quote,but i won’t go too much into ff7.I never liked ff7,and i didn’t start really dissing it till i was constantly bombarded with ff7 fanboys praising it and worshiping it,along with all those assholes at se who keep making more prequels and sequels,and cameos.
quote drogore:Me too, FF8 was a classic for me too! FF9 i did found weird the battle system since i started on 8 but but the history got me so a started to playin ff9 too!
Funny you mention that,since ff8 was the weird one of the series in the 90s.
It had a story that revolved around a love triangle,and a gameplay that was both tedious and over complicated.
The game did have its interesting points,but a lot of people disliked it for these points.I can see why some people might hate the gameplay in ff8,especially the card game with its stupid rules passing towards other countries and having to spend hours abolishing it.
FF9 had a simple gameplay.
It plays more like classic final fantasies,with its traditional fantasy setting,rather than ultra realistic sci fi world.
A lot of newer fans love that sci fi world,but its a little harder to fit sci fi and fantasy with magic in a title called:final fantasy.
Sometimes reason alone makes no sense.I can understand wanting to beat someone up with your bare fists,because you make less noise and its always cool to have martial arts fights.It works also in modern day settings very well too,as you can see in games like final fight and the metal gear solid,where you use cqc to knock enemies down,or even double dragon.
Now swords:They can be cool,but sometimes you wonder if square enix has gone out of its way to be so ultra realistic,why not just abandon swords all together? A lot of modern final fantasies are becoming less fantasy and more sci fi approach,and i have a mixture of feelings.
Sometimes,i feel a little sad,because it is pushing away those traditional fantasy rpg settings,and a lot of people love traditional rpg settings.I kinda liked that you had different looking people in ff9,so what if its not ultra realistic.Being ultra realistic is not always the best option,but its not always the worse either.
In the early games,i always remember ff8 and ff7 being the most ultra sci fi realism games.
In ff7,you had mostly humans,but you did have at least 2 creatures that kept it somewhat sci fi.
FF8 on the other hand,abandoned almost all of its roots towards fantasy,and stuck with realism mostly.
The biggest fantasy part,are shumis and summons,with maybe exception of the weapons as well.
FFX was way more realism,except for maybe the blitzbal idea,and the shupaf.
FFX was always also kind of weird.Its hard to decide wether its considered futuristic,or done in the past.
We have some forms of weapons,but you don’t see a huge amount of high tech stuff either,aside from maybe the albheds and zanarkand at the beginning,but we don’t even get to see much because it is destroyed.at the beginning.
I am also one of the types who does like sci fi,but i also like mid evil swords and sorcery.
I also believe that just because it isn’t the other doesn’t make it bad.
I like interesting surroundings,places that show culture and interest in the surroundings.I want some place i want to explore,something of which FFXIII didn’t do,and ff7 failed for me on many levels.
I liked some towns in ff9,but it was mostly to hang around because of the cool music,with the exception of alexandria.Alexandria was my favorite ff9 town i think.
It was huge and full of different looking cultural creatures,which i liked.
FF8 cultures didn’t seem like they were all that different,with the exception of the shumi,which is why i liked the shumi so much.
The shumi mini quest was so fun,because squall and the team were lost,because they didn’t understand the shumi ways.
It made for some interesting moments because they didn’t understand,and were very confused with the gift.
I could always imagine a small or even medium sized gap between 2 cultures.It would be as if you had gone to japan,or hong kong.
The culture is very different,and would leave you confused about the way they see things.
The fact that its so corny that it becomes unintentionally funny,is a very bad sign.
And seifer was pretty angsty.I mean:All he thought of was getting veangance on squall,and for what? getting seed position and him being left out.
His reasons seemed pretty sloppy.
Squall for me was more interesting,because it was as if he had aspergers.
His whole personality is that of someone who is autistic,and here is the proof:
He is very self contained and prefers to be alone.
He keeps his thoughts to himself,and many times fails to tell his team mates his plans
He never shows interesting in talking.
But he isn-t,because he only shows vague symptoms.
I think the best ones for those type of scenes,are the really early ones.
When he is partying on disc 2,is but one scene where he refuses to communicate.
I’m not saying the game is bad, of course it isn’t. It is actually quite a decent game with some incredible graphics. However Final Fantasy had a prestigious name to live up to and that is why everyone either hates the game or feels disappointed. I feel as though Square-Enix has lost sight of what was originally amazing about the series in the first place. I’d only ask for them to follow their instincts rather than the minds of others. For once, graphics really put them in jeopardy. At least from what I’ve, Squaresoft and Enix decided to part ways in XIII where Squaresoft created the XIII and Enix created the Versus. I just think that if there will ever be a XV, Square-Enix really needs to re-think the new world that they create and put a real story in it. XIII’s story felt like such a cold story that didn’t really put into account much thought. Someone said that if XIII was two steps back, XIII-2 was one step forward and I completely agree. I hope an XV comes around. It’d be wrong to end the series on such a low.
Another problem that comes to mind,is that games are coming out too quickly,and not enough development is being made.Coming out with 10 games of the same idea is not a good idea.I-d rather have 1 sand box game come out after 3 years that is done very well,than 100 games that are done so badly that they suck.
Why would there not be a FF15? FF13 sold outrageously well – it was a *massive* commercial success. The franchise is one of very, very few series that does equally well in both western and eastern markets. And the sequel has sold huge numbers in the West also, showing that FF13 has not been the ‘series killer’ that some were billing it as. Many people may not have liked FF13 in the West, but to say that the series is not doing well or is doomed is to ignore the facts completely.
Its also wrong to state that FF was big news up to and including FF10, but not after. FF was big (in the west) around FF7 and FF8, then cooled off considerably in the run-up to FF9. FF9 then failed to inspire any but the hardcore fans back, and it wasn’t until FF10 (the first FF on a next gen machine, with truly next gen graphics and voice acting etc) that the series came back to prominence. I do agree that the series profile has slackened again since then (but not because of falling quality IMO), but that has not come at the cost of sales or creative ambition. FF12 and FF13 were nothing if not ambitious and creatively experimental. They were not the FF games you necessarily would have expected, and that alone makes them titles that I am very interested in.
Why would there not be a FF15? FF13 sold outrageously well – it was a *massive* commercial success. The franchise is one of very, very few series that does equally well in both western and eastern markets. And the sequel has sold huge numbers in the West also, showing that FF13 has not been the ‘series killer’ that some were billing it as. Many people may not have liked FF13 in the West, but to say that the series is not doing well or is doomed is to ignore the facts completely.
Because they are working on FFXIII versus? Give it some time,and FFXV will come out.They are also working on other games as well.
Yet a lot of people disliked the games,many old fans felt betrayed,like me.And square enix changed the formula because people were unhappy.You would think that is a sign of something wrong.
Its also wrong to state that FF was big news up to and including FF10, but not after. FF was big (in the west) around FF7 and FF8, then cooled off considerably in the run-up to FF9. FF9 then failed to inspire any but the hardcore fans back, and it wasn’t until FF10 (the first FF on a next gen machine, with truly next gen graphics and voice acting etc) that the series came back to prominence. I do agree that the series profile has slackened again since then (but not because of falling quality IMO), but that has not come at the cost of sales or creative ambition. FF12 and FF13 were nothing if not ambitious and creatively experimental. They were not the FF games you necessarily would have expected, and that alone makes them titles that I am very interested in.
FFX was a hit,but it is also very controversial.When people talk about overrated games,it seems like its usually ff7 and FFX.
Thats not to say its a bad game.In fact:I would say its better than some later games,like FFXIII.
FF8 was a massive controversy in gaming.FF8 has its fans divided between haters and lovers.Some people like it,but i cannot get an accurate reading on it.A lot of people seem to hate squall,especially some here hate squall.Zell is another character that gets a lot of hatred.
FF9:FF9 got unfair hatred on it for going back to its original roots.People who liked ff7 wanted that sci fi world that was found in ff7,and instead they got pure fantasy.Both are kind of wrong to a degree:Both can be good,but also have the capability of being absolutely terrible.I don-t mind if they mix sci fi and fantasy together,as long as its interesting.ff9-s gameplay was simple,but it was also good.I liked learning abilities from weapons and being able to equip abilities,plus:You got specific classes,so it made all classes useful in their own way.
Now where in the Hell this game is hated, on this Board probably I’m the only one that’s open enough to express my hate towards FF9.
Here (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f27/most-ignored-final-fantasy-68558/9.html#post1706130)and Here (http://forums.ffshrine.org/f27/most-ignored-final-fantasy-68558/9.html#post1706360). I speak out loudly about the Recognition that the game has.
FF9 is not hated or Ignored… By any means…
FF7 and FF10 get the most love and hate, because they are the ones that are considered the most important. They have the largest fanbases, and whenever that happens, there are always lots of people who feel very strongly against such a thing too. They were the real mainstream hits, when the series went overground (as opposed to recently, when the series has still sold exceptionally, but has not been as well thought of). For me, FF10 was just too glossy and superficial, with characters I couldn’t care less about and nothing of any interest happening for hours and hours on end (usually as a result of the almost uniformly awful villains). And a giant flying whale… FF7 though, is still in my opinion the best of the series, just one of those games when everything seems to click, and other than a slightly disappointing final dungeon and final boss encounter, its an all time classic.
FF8 is one of those games that has big peaks and troughs. At times, its the best FF game full stop IMO, but at others its slow, awkward to play and devotes far too much time (particularly on discs 3+4) to the Squall and Rinoa love story. The school setting and all the stereotypes that go along with such a setting, also add to the ‘love it or hate it’ aspect of the game. It just wasn’t as immediate as FF7 was, which grabbed people with its steampunk atmosphere and its fairly dark story (its still one of the darkest JRPGs ever made, with a huge bodycount when alls said and done, including some party members).
FFIX is a Greatest Hits PS1 title in the collection.
FFIX had a Commercial with FUCKING COCA-COLA!
How much more attention you want for a game with a dated battle system, developed and released at the end of the PS1 days?
FFIX got all the attention it deserved and more if you ask me.
And of course that in the mainstream it will not be considered important. The reasons for that are the most obvious ones.
That game IS NOT HATED. It’s considered to be the last good FF game for the majority of the fanbase of the series.
And I’m not sure you could say that the majority of the fanbase considered FF9 the last good installment. As much I despise FF10, its extremely well regarded by most of the fanbase, at least as far I can see anyway. There are a lot of people who think the series just shouldn’t have contined without Sakaguichi, but I’ve never subscribed to that view myself, seeing as how none of my favourite FF titles were directed by him, and (FF10) aside, I’ve loved all the games since he left.
About the Last good FF Installment I based myself in what I always saw and hear in and out of the Internet. If you check any top 10 list at Gamefaqs where an FF game is named. IX is virtually always named as the last good FF.
About Sakaguchi directing FF games…
Well, the minute I saw Vagrant Story I fell in love. It was hard for me to finish it for myself, but it was rewarding. Then I played FFT and I was blown away by it’s storyline and intuitive and fun gameplay. So when I heard that the same guy will be in charge of XII, I was owned by that. Of course Matsuno left the Development of XII at some point. But you can see that the Core, the Intention and the Ideas are there.
And I still don’t own a PSP to try some Tactics Ogre. xD
So, yeah, I kinda agree with you on Sakaguchi directing FF games.
That kind of support rarely lasts beyond the title in question, because its so dependant on an X factor that no amount of planning or marketing can generate. It(almost always) evaporates when the next game comes out. Because even if the next game is legitmately great, its unusual for lightning to strike twice in that fashion. The series may still be wildly popular afterwards, but not in the same ‘revered, engaged and loved by all who look upon it’ way. But that game is nevertheless forever entrenched as a classic in people’s minds, that no amount of scrutiny in later years can dispel.
FF7 and FF10 are the only titles in Final Fantasy to command that kind of near mythic prestige. Which in itself can often arouse the ire of hardcore fans who feel such things are tantamount to ‘selling out’ etc. FF6 and FF9 are undoubtably strong favourites of the hardcore, but they (like most games) are not in the same league as FF7 and FF10 on this issue. And again, this kind of thing is not necessarily indicative of quality (I love FF7, but hate FF10), just that they were the games that really grabbed the mainstream.
About the Last good FF Installment I based myself in what I always saw and hear in and out of the Internet. If you check any top 10 list at Gamefaqs where an FF game is named. IX is virtually always named as the last good FF.
About Sakaguchi directing FF games…
Well, the minute I saw Vagrant Story I fell in love. It was hard for me to finish it for myself, but it was rewarding. Then I played FFT and I was blown away by it’s storyline and intuitive and fun gameplay. So when I heard that the same guy will be in charge of XII, I was owned by that. Of course Matsuno left the Development of XII at some point. But you can see that the Core, the Intention and the Ideas are there.
I don-t mind people saying ff9 as one of the best,because i do think it is easily one of the best ones.
I think one problem,is that personalities get very used,and this can get very grating when you can predict everything the game is going to throw at you.FFXIII had almost no surprises at all for me,because it is some recycled personalities you can see in the last 3 or 4 final fantasies.I understand its hard to make characters,but i also think that maybe they are trying too hard to appeal to just the mainstream,and not giving us old timers something we might enjoy.I admit,i-m kind of old compared to some gamers,and this is why my general appeal changed.As i am older,i wanted more mature type of setting rather than something only aimed at teens or pre teens.The idea for FFXIII isn-t that complex that you have to replay it over and over,because i got it on the first full playthrough.Yes i played it before almost complete,but i also skipped a lot of scenes because i already knew that a lot of nothing happened,and it seemed boring to have to sit through it for hours.
As for ff7:I have considered it overrated for at least 12 years now,maybe 8.
I may despise ff7,but i don-t think it is a bad game.What i despise about it,is the fanbase who can be very one sided about their game,and throw objectivity out the window.I never liked cloud as a hero,in fact:I think he is easily one of the characters i most dislike from final fantasy,except hope who i would love to put in front of a firing squad.I have never hated a character as much as i hate hope,even cloud doesn-t annoy me as much as hope.
Anyways:I think that sephiroth makes a better tragic hero than cloud,and would give you something to truly feel sorry for.Just think of it:Tragic past,he has issues of being used by the government and made to do stuff as a soldier.His very own father used him,would make a good scene.
Sephiroth:Dad,you used me
Hojo:Now wait a minute son,i was trying to make you all powerful
Sephiroth:No dad,you were trying to further your career,now DIE!!!!.
You get veangance,and as the story progresses,you become more focused on your task in bringing him to justice.Also:take out that killing scene,and you got a tragic hero that is far more tragic than even cloud.
Imagine you play as sephiroth,and seph is a tragic hero.Then,you add some scenes like him thinking his mom is jenova,and finds out the truth and it becomes tragic for the main character,and you feel sorry for him.
This is generally speaking why i think sephiroth is more tragic than cloud.He went through a lot more,and has far more reason to complain than he ever would.
On my personal view. You can’t really say anything about Sephiroth’s Past and childhood. So can’t really say much about Who is more tragic than Whom. Becuase wether you like it or not. Cloud’s Past sucked and sucked hard. And I still laugh at people that think that he’s an depressed person that just complains. Play the game again, and if you really pay attention, you’ll see one of the best lines played for laughs from Cloud rather than Barret or Cid (the real complainer in the game).
The Character of Cloud is brilliant because you can say a bunch of Crap, and you won’t really define it properly. And that it’s the main reason that it’s such a great protagonist. Because it can easily blend with any type of RPG Player in the Identification of the Main Hero.
TV Tropes has an interesting view saying that the character is an Unbuilt Trope because in spite of being the first character that comes to mind when it comes to the typical JRPG angsty hero, he really isn’t one of them.
Viewed backwards, Cloud in Final Fantasy VII is a deconstruction of a stereotypical spiky-haired angsty JRPG hero, in that while his serious issues are treated sympathetically, you are supposed to dislike him for his selfishness and shortsightedness, and his masculinity is constantly challenged by having him succeed in humiliating ways. His angst is frequently played for Black Comedy as well as for drama, and even his Anime Hair is criticised by the game. His quest to take down Sephiroth is alarmingly one-sided, to the point of a Stalker with a Crush-style obsession that even the other characters find disturbing. On top of all this, he’s not even supposed to be The Hero; that guy (Zack) got killed, and now his sidekick (Cloud) is trying to take his place – he’s literally role-playing a hero to escape from his own terrible self-esteem and inability to talk to girls. However, if Cloud wasn’t the first stereotypical spiky-haired angsty JRPG hero, he is the first one people think of.
I can though,as i played ff7 entirely,and part of crisis core.I know that cloud strife met zack fair,when cloud was still a newbie recruit who was pretty young and happy.He was excited about his mission when he first was in a vehicle with sephiroth inside.I remember that dream sequence of his,where he was kind of restless,while sephiroth was calm and collective.Sephiroths past was more tragic.Think of it this way:If you found out that your dad had been experimenting on your mom to further his career,and the government was taking advantage of your skills at combat to further their own agendas,you too would be pretty mad.This is a big deal as it adds a major reason for being tragic.
Clouds village was burned down yes,and zack died and aeris died.The death of an entire village,and possibly his mother was a big deal.The death of aeris,was medium to low on tragic meter.I still think that its worse for vincent valentine and sephiroth.Vincent valentine tried to do something about it,and was mutated and put inside a coffin.Sephiroth was abused by his crazy workaholic father who is a sick man who has no respect for life or his fellow man at all.Hojo crossed the line in ways that breaks the lines of morality.When you think about it,hojo is probably the most evil person in the original ff7 game,and possibly crisis core as well.He caused the whole event.If it wasn-t for hojo,the sephiroth event would have never happened.
The Character of Cloud is brilliant because you can say a bunch of Crap, and you won’t really define it properly. And that it’s the main reason that it’s such a great protagonist. Because it can easily blend with any type of RPG Player in the Identification of the Main Hero.
Anyway
I can though,as i played ff7 entirely,and part of crisis core.
I was only speaking for the Original Game. Crisis Core and the rest of the Movies/Compliation titles can literally bite me, as they were made in response on the fanbase only.
Think of it this way:If you found out that your dad had been experimenting on your mom to further his career,and the government was taking advantage of your skills at combat to further their own agendas,you too would be pretty mad.This is a big deal as it adds a major reason for being tragic.
Sephiroth was just a Time Bomb… And that doesn’t make it more Dramatic. But by Definition it is Tragic though.
It was only a matter of Time that he got to Know about his Origins and to take advantage of his Proficiencies to use them to become a God Himself in a world where everyone except the Weapons maybe are weaker than Him.
As his Archetype of Character was a Pragmatic and Calculator Personality, the Logical Consequence was that.
But taking account of the Predictability of the Events with such Characters involved. The Drama or the Tragical part of his Character is only feeded or enforced by the Party of heroes and his Relation with Cloud, thus Sephiroth on his own does not provoke much.
Clouds village was burned down yes,and zack died and aeris died.The death of an entire village,and possibly his mother was a big deal.The death of aeris,was medium to low on tragic meter.
There bunch of other bad stuff that happened to cloud. Play the game and check his childhood.
I still think that its worse for vincent valentine and sephiroth.Vincent valentine tried to do something about it,and was mutated and put inside a coffin.
Vincent is easily the worst Character of the game along with Yuffie IMO. Hate Cait Sith all Along, but Reeve is a character that gets developed and sees the real stuff through his own very eyes and makes sacrifices for the Party for reasons of his own.
Vincent only reason for existence is to have a secret character that makes the girls squee over the shadowy and tragic past. Other than that, Vincent would’ve been a great character if they didn’t stereotyped his aspect and played more deeply onto the character’s Past Actions and Developments.
Because the Premise of the Character is a Great Hook. An Ex-Turk that served for an experimenation of a Mad Scientist because he fucked his Girlfriend. How awesome can that get. But it wasn’t played well, and don’t get me started on the most stupid and awful personality that the character got.
The attempt for making a Frankenstein failed here.
Sephiroth was abused
The Childhood was not exposed or Implied in the game. So you can’t really know that. And the Traumas usually developed during this period of time.
Hojo crossed the line in ways that breaks the lines of morality.When you think about it,hojo is probably the most evil person in the original ff7 game,and possibly crisis core as well.He caused the whole event.If it wasn-t for hojo,the sephiroth event would have never happened.
Hojo Positivist view of Life was turned into an Obsession thus destroying his Humanity and converting him in the Mad Scientist Archetype of Character. His moral Compass is destroyed by his lust for Experimentation. He wasn’t pointing to Further his Career.
Clouds village was burned down yes,and zack died and aeris died.The death of an entire village
The Death of an Entire Village…
Now which is more Tragic… 40 to 50 Human beings (not counting Animals), People that you knew them and spent your Childhood with them, your HOME destroyed.
Or having Issues because you’ve been used. After you’re Conciouss about how strong you are. Problem Solved. Revenge on everybody.
Cloud Lost what he cannot bring back, and although he didn’t liked Nibelheim because he was ashamed of his Past there. His chances to Rectify his Image are now scattered by the event. That is the Real Tragedy.
Cloud is right to point out the utterly self absorbed nature of what Sephiroth is doing. What Hojo did to him (and just everyone else he ever meets) was a terrible crime. And there’s no dount that Hojo is one of the most truly evil people in any FF game. Take that scene where Cloud visits Nibelheim and sees the 2 small shadows that are all that’s left of the 2 kids who used to live there before Hojo got his hands on them. Cloud shakes his head sadly at the sheer cruelty of it, and it all speaks to the fact that along with Shinra wiping out Corel, murdering the people from Sector 7 etc, the world is full of miserable acts and cold hearted people.
People suffer all the time, and it all counts. Sephiroth considers himself special, that his pain counts more than that of other people. But it doesn’t – his pain doesn’t give him the right to take it out on everyone else, and especially not the innocent. He becomes a murderer, plain and simple. He kills Aeris when she was unarmed and praying for the salvation of the world. Its a cowardly, despicable act which no amount of sob stories about his past could possibly justify.
And just look at the aftermath scene if you want to see true pain and anguish. The reactions of Yuffie, Tifa and Barret when they pay their respects to the slain Aeris are particularly powerful. Or watch the scene where Dyne kills himself – he at least finally takes responsibilty for what he’s done. Barret and Tifa both come to realise that their acts of terrorism were wrong, and that the innocent deaths they caused were punished with the death of their friends in Sector 7. You can’t be a hero if you kill the innocent.
Why would there not be a FF15? FF13 sold outrageously well – it was a *massive* commercial success. The franchise is one of very, very few series that does equally well in both western and eastern markets. And the sequel has sold huge numbers in the West also, showing that FF13 has not been the ‘series killer’ that some were billing it as. Many people may not have liked FF13 in the West, but to say that the series is not doing well or is doomed is to ignore the facts completely.
Its also wrong to state that FF was big news up to and including FF10, but not after. FF was big (in the west) around FF7 and FF8, then cooled off considerably in the run-up to FF9. FF9 then failed to inspire any but the hardcore fans back, and it wasn’t until FF10 (the first FF on a next gen machine, with truly next gen graphics and voice acting etc) that the series came back to prominence. I do agree that the series profile has slackened again since then (but not because of falling quality IMO), but that has not come at the cost of sales or creative ambition. FF12 and FF13 were nothing if not ambitious and creatively experimental. They were not the FF games you necessarily would have expected, and that alone makes them titles that I am very interested in.
I personally don’t think the series is doing well and this is coming form a loyal fan who felt seriously ripped off by XIII. I don’t think it’s just facts we need to consider, we also need to take into account opinion, recent games etc. Take the first week of sales. I read previously that XIII-2 sold only 500,000 units as opposed to XIII’s original 1.5 million and this is only in Japan. No doubt that is a massive drop, especially for one nation. It basically indicates how XIII truly failed to live up to eight years of production. Millions were anticipating XIII’s release. If it weren’t for XIV’s release, XIII would be the most disappointing game in the entire series. Of course, fans who neglected the francise will come around to purchasing XIII-2, when the price lowers, that is. Why I say that post FFX lacked prestige is because it’s true. XI was an online game and so was XIV. I didn’t want to ‘pay to play’ so people like myself decided to disregard playing it completely. XII lacked character development, the story wasn’t memorable and it’s battle system encouraged you to be lazy with gambits. It just wasn’t likeable. But hey, we’re open to subjectivity. Basically when I said that the franchise isn’t doing well or is doomed, I’m saying that they’re losing a loyal fanbase. You could tell that XIII was targeting a wider audience when they decided to grab Leona Lewis with ‘My Hands’, which was an okay song. I’m convinced that Square-Enix is driven by commercialism. I’m sure that if the production followed their instincts with the story, they could’ve produced possibly one of the best of the series because the graphics were there and far out, the game was visually stunning. Point is, if millions are unanimous with the lack of soul XIII had compared to its predecessors, does that ignore facts? Future decisions of a XV would be driven by factors such as previous sales. Even though it’d take a few years, Square-Enix really needs to prioritise the story first before continuing further. If we get another XIII, I know I’m done with the franchise.
I actually enjoyed XIII-2. I loved the concept of time travel and many would agree if they played Chrono Trigger. It was a massive improvement from XIII because the graphic models were mastered, which immediately forced them to focus on the story and the gameplay which was what lacked in XIII. Though there are some lacking elements, I think that XIII-2 provided some relief and closure to those who were left empty by XIII. They really considered the fans’ input. One of the things that push my buttons with this game is the level of difficulty and lack of direction with it came to collecting fragments. Sometimes you couldn’t complete an entire map until you were in another world and completed that one. There is also that ridiculous fragment that involved slot machines. Possibly the worst part of the game.
IMO, FFIX was the most enjoyable because it wasn’t depressing if you know what I mean. Zidane was one of the happier protagonists compared to Squall/Cloud, nobody was killed from what I remember and there were a variety of characters. Everyone was different. Great characters, amazing musical score, typical but a trademark story. However, my favourite has to be VI. If VI was released on PSX with 3D models, everyone would be raving on about a VI remake.
Figures can be interpreted in any number of different ways. You said that FF13-2’s sales were down on FF13’s sales. Fair enough. But then you say it proves that FF13 has hurt opinion. But FF13-2 is an offshoot in the same way that FF10-2 was to FF10. The vastly reduced budget and ‘non main series installment’ factor were well known. Its the same in all series like this – the numbered installments (or in this case the main installments) are the ones that draw the crowds in, offshoots, pesuedo sequels, reimaginings, etc etc never do as well (particularly when the main series games are such massive sellers). FF13 was extremely well received in Japan, so apathy after FF13 is not the reason for the smaller sales – the antagonism towards FF13 is purely a Western thing.
And your statement leaves off the part where even with these lower sales, it was the 5th best selling game of the year – and it only came out in December! That’s a fantastic result in anyone’s book, surely? Be careful not to cherry pick the headlines and leave out important details when you do so – people seize on ‘facts’ like these and its important that the whole story be told, as opponents of the series will never willingly bring these things up themselves when they can just throw out a supposedly damning headline. The game is selling extremely well in both markets (its been number 1 over here since it came out).
I’m not going to stand here and say FF13 has not put people off (though again, its overwhelmingly a Western thing), but we have to be careful not to oversimplify things. Final Fantasy has only recently started doing direct sequels at all. Some fans still refuse to forgive FF10-2 for its supposed crimes against the original (not me though, I vastly prefer FF10-2 to FF10. Plus, these two games (FF13 and FF13-2) had nothing like equal budgets and development times. People knew this, and if they were sensible managed their expectations accordingly. The sales in Japan have been extremely good as I have pointed out, which shows that just because they didn’t rush out on day 1 to buy it in the same tidal wave as they did for the ‘Main’ installment, they did eventually buy it. But expecting a game with lower development time, budget and weight of expectation (because everyone gets excited for a truly ‘new’ FF), to sell as well as the main installment is unrealistic in the extreme.
I totally agree about that slot machine fragment. The most evil aspect of the game by far… Still, the fragment collecting is generally good fun, and you’d expect to have to do a certain amount of hopping around in time, wouldn’t you?
And FF9 wasn’t dark?! It has a *massive* bodycount! Lindblum – destroyed. Alexandria – destroyed. Burmecia – destroyed. Cleyra – destroyed. Terra (a whole world, let’s not forget) – destroyed. That’s thousands, if not millions of people! Does your bloodlust know no bounds that you consider this a happy, lighter experience where nobody dies! (I’m joking – I assume you mean nobody from the party dies, right? And It is light hearted fun, but there’s a lot of darkness in that supposedly cute game…)
Is Final Fantasy 13 really that bad? – YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5oB5PZtsII)
I hope this doesn’t break any rules.
And FF9 wasn’t dark?! It has a *massive* bodycount! Lindblum – destroyed. Alexandria – destroyed. Burmecia – destroyed. Cleyra – destroyed. Terra (a whole world, let’s not forget) – destroyed. That’s thousands, if not millions of people! Does your bloodlust know no bounds that you consider this a happy, lighter experience where nobody dies! (I’m joking – I assume you mean nobody from the party dies, right? And It is light hearted fun, but there’s a lot of darkness in that supposedly cute game…)
FF6 did that too.It had a lot of body counts in the world of balance,and yet you had humorous tidbits with kefka to keep the game balanced.Then you get to the world of ruin,and the whole thing changed dramatically.You see a dying world with plants dead and dead animals.
FF9 had some pretty dark moments too.I think that kuja’s death was pretty sad,because in the end he had a moment of clarity and acceptance of death.I felt like he finally got over it,and he died when i didn’t want him to die.
One thing that is pretty dark,is that beatrix absolutely destroyed burmecia.She didn’t have to destroy it completely,but she did.Cleyra was pretty extreme as well.
Kuja killed millions of people – maybe even tens or hundreds of millions depending on what Terra’s actual population was when it was destroyed (I can’t remember if the people were all in cryo, and where they were being stored, but if any were still on the planet…). So I couldn’t care if he didn’t want to die – neither did all the people he butchered. It doesn’t matter what what done to him – it doesn’t give him a right to commit mass murder!
I feel sorry for the legions and legions of murdered victims he leaves in his wake – I don’t waste my pity on jerks like him.
Kuja was also changed when you killed him.He was in a murderous rage,and he ended up accepting death.
On the other hand:I am not forgiving beatrix for what she did to burmecia.There is no good excuse to do that.
Still,on the point:You got to admit that those scenes were pretty sad in death counts.I mean:how many people died in burmecia and cleyra alone? that is without also adding the black mages that died as well as the people in alexandra,and the planet that zidane came from.
Just because a villain says he’s sorry, that’s alright, is it? Because of him, the world (the one that’s left!) has been utterly devastated and the death toll is staggering. And what was he doing as all this happened? He was laughing at people, and mocking their grief. Why should I waste any sympathy on a wretched creature like him? His actions are uniformly despicable and petty, and he’d mercy from me if I was in Zidane’s shoes.
FFX and FFVII are definitely next though on my favorites list when it comes to FF.
FFX and FFVII are definitely next though on my favorites list when it comes to FF.
Some people dislike the game,and think its not a good game for good reason.
I for instance,think that the gameplay was boring and too easy.dragon quest 8 was easy,but it had its moments in fun too.The gameplay in dragon quest 8 had a lot more too it than FFXIII,which actively took out things which are fun instead of putting them in.For instance:Exploration:Do we really have to sacrifice that much exploration? 2:The whole system for using attacks is terrible,it needs a revision.I don’t know what pissed off the gamers and designers so much,that they actively hate random encounters and turn based rpgs? 3:The characters are retarded.Lightning is a drama queen,and so is hope and snow.They all whine together and cry the big cry.See:In lost oddyssey,it is annoying,because i don’t actually know the character who dies.4:The fetch quests:Couldn’t tey add more? seriously,the overworld is so boring.All there is to do,is 50 quests and level up your weapons.4:No shops:Horrible design.5:No towns:why?
FF7 is an alright game,but i still think it is massively overrated and gets far too much praise.There are games ff7 takes from,and it gets the credit as if it were to invent it,like killing off the main protagonist.Something ff4 did,and something ff5 did.
2:FF7 wasn’t really in 3d in the actual game footage,only in the cgi videos.And it was during a time where they should have probably just made it in 2d,and made the next one the first 3d.1997 was too early for the first 3d,because it wasn’t perfected yet.
3:sephiroth and cloud and tifa and aeris are the 4 most overrated characters in an rpg.more towards sephiroth and cloud being the most overrated rpg characters of all time.They could have been better,and people put them on a pedestal regardless of their flaws.
FF8 is harder because of its fiddly system and how hard it is to upgrade weapons etc, but the others (I’m only counting from FF6 onwards) are all much easier IMO. It stll doesn’t make it a hard game (just a harder game). But very few RPGs are genuinely hard. The Shin Megami Tensei games are probably the only truly hard RPGs.
This.
What about how easy it is to become completely immortal? nothing can harm you with those hero attacks,and squall spam alot much? spam spam spam limit break spam.
ff6 was also pretty easy,but it had its moments that added some interesting spots,like:The floating island.The floating island is probably one of the harder moments.ff4 was also harder than ff6 and ff7 in most areas,cept it didn’t have any secret bosses that were truly hard,and it wasn’t that hard either.
FFXIII:Most fights in the middle to end are very simple fights: press L and R and change between paradigms,and press xxxxxx and enemy is dead.You get full health so there is no need to even think about potions.The open world isn’t even hard either.There are maybe like:2 enemies that are truly difficult:The malboro guys,and there is an annoying enemy that is hard,when you are aiming for the final area.There are some annoying enemies,like those motorcycle guys,but they aren’t hard.I was able to get through all the levels without too much problems.
Now ff tactics is hard.FF tactics is one hard motherfucker.That game doesn’t fuck around,it wants your head on a plate.That part where you go for weigraf,and find out you can’t rest in between fights,is a sign that you better be sure you are ready for multiple fights,because some fights don’t even give you rest.Then again:Strategy games seem to present more difficulty because of sometimes unfair situations.You are sometimes put in a position in ff tactics that enemies move a lot faster than you,and hit more often than you.The result is getting killed more often than not.
This…
VIII gameplay, though can be fun, is incredibly stupid and exploitable.
Now ff tactics is hard.
Actually no, you just haven’t figured how to break the game.
I agree that FFIV is hard.
I also consider Ultimecia the hardest final boss of any of these games (except maybe Orphan with his instant death spam, but that’s just cheap). Properly levelled and junctioned, she’s easy enough, but if not, she’s murder. Compare that with Sephiroth, Kefka, Necron, Jecht etc etc who you can beat in your sleep, even if your party is rubbish. Necron’s HP in particular are absolutely laughable for a final boss.
I also consider Ultimecia the hardest final boss of any of these games (except maybe Orphan with his instant death spam, but that’s just cheap). Properly levelled and junctioned, she’s easy enough, but if not, she’s murder. Compare that with Sephiroth, Kefka, Necron, Jecht etc etc who you can beat in your sleep, even if your party is rubbish.
Reminds me of those fucking balrons in ultima4.Oh god do those motherfuckers piss me off.
Also:Orphan hard? all he does is cast death on 1 character over and over.All you have to do is keep reviving 1 character and keep spamming attacks.I know this would give you 0 stars supposedly,but its really easy of a fight if you do this.
The thing is fiddly.There are many things you wouldn’t know how to do without a guide of some sort.This is why i recommend you try to read a guide about how to play the game,because otherwise:You will be not playing correctly.
After having played it once,i found out that this game has little replay value,unless you want to try to be severely overpowered early on,and totally rape the enemies.
FFX had its difficult moments too.For me,one of the hardest if not hardest,was killing yunalesca.
Well, I didn’t find FF8 easy at all. I didn’t exploit the game though – it was long enough ago and I was young and callow enough that I just played it normally. I still find the Junction system incredibly fiddly, and having to stock magic to put in stats, level up GFs to even be able to put stuff in those stats, having to trawl obscure locations to get obscure items just to be able to upgrade your weapons at all… Its much more hassle than any of the other FF games IMO.
I also consider Ultimecia the hardest final boss of any of these games (except maybe Orphan with his instant death spam, but that’s just cheap). Properly levelled and junctioned, she’s easy enough, but if not, she’s murder. Compare that with Sephiroth, Kefka, Necron, Jecht etc etc who you can beat in your sleep, even if your party is rubbish. Necron’s HP in particular are absolutely laughable for a final boss.
When I first played FF8 I didn’t understand the systems and thought it was pretty hard. Playing it again a couple years later (I would have been around 12, I guess), I thought it was all pretty easy to figure out and from there it was incredibly easy to exploit.
You went to Orphan with your Crystarium maxed, which is something most people don’t do. Your playthrough is hardly a fair comparison. Any boss is easy when all your characters are maxed!
Fight:
But you’ve hit the nail on the head right there – if you just play it normally, FF8 is a pretty brutal game at times. Because you won’t have upgraded your weapons (because come on, without a guide you would never find some of those materials) etc etc. You need to actually put some time in to work it all out, which skills your GFs should learn, who should have which GF(because its very easy to find yourself in the position where giving each character all the GFs needed to boost all stats, will mean giving them GFs who hate them etc etc). And some of the crucial ones are insanely hard to find (get to Disc 4 without Tonberry King and Doomtrain and you can’t buy items or upgrade weapons anymore, and both of those GFs require a guide to find IMO).
When I played FF8, I was just getting into JRPGs. Pretty much the only other one I’d played was FF7. I was playing for the story and didn’t give a damn about systems etc. So I just burned through, and when I reached foes like Adel and Ultimecia, I just couldn’t compete.
Even the adamantoise are just boring and easy,they just take forever to bring down,because you have to kill their legs so they don’t hurt you.After that,you are forced to kill their body.Oh and:Death spell sucks.it may insta kill sometimes,but that spell only works like 10% of the time.
This game is a lot of grinding,and if you grind relatively well,then you won’t die,that is assuming you don’t do something incredibly stupid,like attack the adamantoise head while its legs are still intact.
Most of the difficulty i had,was either from not grinding,or i didn’t have the upgrade to become more powerful for the moment.When you first arrive to grand pulse,you are going to be weak for killing most creatures,that is:If you hadn’t grinded to max out early before chapter 13,and even then i think your crystagen expands after defeating odin.I think that the most difficult boss i had in the game,was cid.Cid was a royal pain in the ass in the first encounter,because he changed his abilities when you changed,plus he can debuff your whole team.The other cid fights were more annoying than actually hard.
No,what i am saying is that there are only a few hard moments,the rest is easy.
Having a few difficult moment doesn’t equate to a hard game all the way through.By that way of thinking,ff7 must be incredibly hard just because of the only two more difficult bosses:Emerald weapon and ruby weapon.And even ruby weapon isn’t too tough.
Xx..xX
If Square Enix published it with an entirely different name people would have been forgiving of the game.
I loved FFXIII, I think the battle system was a fresh change of the ATB, and only being able to play as one character in battle pissed a lot of people off, but they fail to realize how hard it would have been to control all three characters at that pace (although I think being able to switch control would have been nice, so you wouldn’t have to restart the battle if you died)
Sure the game didn’t "pick up" until about 20 hours in, but that doesn’t mean it still wasn’t exciting up to that point.
I also think barely being able to deviate from the path was fridge brilliance. Think about it, you are short on time before you essentially die, you need to fulfill your mission. Are you going to gallivant around or are you going to try to save yourself in a timely manner?
Ever since VII, the combat system has sucked compared to the original I-VI.
FF6 had arena fights, optional summons, and a good leveling up system.
FF7 had a truckload more of mini games, plus 2 optional bosses.
FF8 at least allowed you to explore, and had secret mini bosses, but i hate triple triad and the junction system.
FF9 system was cool too.You learned abilities through items, and had class systems like ff4.
FFX even has some sidequests, albeit extremely tedious and annoying.
FFXIII had none of this.Fans who love exploitation don’t get that, only tedious level grinding that is less rewarding than ff8 and FFX.
Story and characters suck.I can’t stand hope, and wish i could side with barthandalus to kill hope, snow and lightning.I can bear the others, even vanille, but not hope,I refuse to buy FFXIII -2 if hope and lightning are in it, and i think they are.
However, one thing that really annoyed me was that if the leader of your party was KO’ed, your entire game was over…despite the fact the other members of your party were still alive. They fixed that in FFXIII-2, but it was a very strange and irritating nuance to have in its predecessor.
I still prefer FFX though, just with there was nore variety in enemies.
Final Fantasy XII had a good story line,(maybe was it due to some good characters) but I was not very interested in the story of the XIII.(I found no real characters in it)
And what is a game without a good story ? it’s just fights and more fights.
So I was a bit disappointed by the XIII but I surely don’t hate the game.Just found it difficult to play (I was never a very good player :))
Zero Punctuation – Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)
It’s very rare for myself to agree 100% with a review, but I do with this one.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the storyline, and the music and atmosphere are AMAZING. I will play through it (and eventually 13-2 & Lighting Returns) Solely based on those facts.
But I’m really unhappy with the battle system, I thought when it was coming out that it would utilize a real-time battle system like Kingdom Hearts, or revert back to the ATB system, but no instead we got…THAT…THAT "Press A to win" bullshit.
I was not happy. In all honesty, I think with a change in the battle system, I’d be a lot happier, that’s my only complaint really.
This. Totally this. I think XIII-2 just gets hate because it’s linked to the one before it. My feelings for XIII and XIII-2 and polar opposites, I hated XIII a lot, the characters didn’t inspire me to care, the storyline was rubbish imo, the gameplay, the linearity, the lack of world, npcs, sidequests. There was nothing in XIII for me to like, in XIII-2 however, everything I just mentioned being missing from XIII was what I loved in XIII-2. The characters were far better, the storyline was interesting and had me in tears, there are sidequests aplenty, a world to interact with, the battles and character progression is far superior, and I like building monsters too. What’s not to like? Even the music is great in XIII-2 unlike it’s predecessor.
I don’t actually hate tidus or vaan, but cait sith does annoy me to no end, and i don’t like quina at all either.Rinoa is also another character that annoys me.
(sorry, I did’t see the date)