Dispute of Final Fantasy 8 – Rinoa and Ultimecia

FF8, always known as <one> of the best FF series in Square. However, compared to FF7 or 9, there was too many mystery in this game that related to both protagonist (Squall and Rinoa) and even the final boss (Ultimecia). Unlike FF7, the mystery was explained in the later of the game, but in FF8, there was some questions remain to debate.

To clear all the mist in the clouds, Dissidia FF has the answers related to such mysteries of these characters. I don’t know where is the source (as my friend in FB sent me the information in Chinese), if you happen to know it please let me know so that I can credit that people.

The information here was translated and edited a bit.

Rinoa is Ultimicia

Maybe it sounds weird, but please read on. I strongly believe that rinoa and ultimicia is simply the same person. The following is from the game I said, is indeed a fact, but certainly not square in the evaluation of everything that I say can only be used as an ordinary argument also. At below, I will enumerate my point of view.

1. Sorceress never dead in this story.
Why? Very simple, this game not mentioned how a sorceress was killed or dead, even Adel. Squall killed Adel in Lunatic Pandora, but the game can be said is Elone transfer the power of soceress to the past of Adel so Adel was not killed. Also, we all can see, Cid was much older than the Edea.

We see the following passage is Ultimecia dying (in the last one) to say:
"Looking back to your childhood … …" "Your feeling … …" "Your words … …" "Time … …" "… will not wait forever …" "No matter how hard you to pay close attention to … …" "It still goes … … "

Why ‘time will not wait?’ No matter how hard to pay close attention to? It can be an argument that Rinoa tries to keep Squall alive in the later of the age, but she failed.

Ultimecia want to change the past -> Squall died -> final Rinoa as Ultimecia -> then go back to the past. This is a cycle, in fact, only two possibilities:

Ultimicia go back to the future of their cause (which she did not go back to the reason).
Ultimicia clearly what they want to change anything, go back, the success (in this case she will not let Squall die.)

2. Location of the final stage
Why at behind of the orphanage? At the beginning of the game, there was such phrases: "I’ll be here waiting, I promise … …" and so on, and Rinoa also said she would go there to find Squall. Why Ultimecia has the world at her when her fortress is located in the back of an orphanage? The answer is, she was there waiting for Squall. Even though the fusion of her and the GF make her lost her consciousness and memories, she still remembered this promise that she made with Squall. The space-time compression that she made was just to meet Squall in the past.

3. The ring of Squall
Remember the ring, Griever? The ring was with him at the beginning. Then Zell takes from Squall, and gave to Rinoa. In the final boss, Ultimecia summoned Griever. Why Griever was under the possession of Ultimecia at the later of the game?

4. Wings
Ultimecia has black wings, Rinoa has white. White = Good, Black = Evil. No support facts on this yet.

5. Ending Animation
There was 3 places in the ending movie, Ultimecia appears. It was pretty short, and hard to recognize. Squaresoft is not stupid to waste the effort to make she appears, no? I know, I say these things without any authority, but can you people do the things I said in the game appear?

6. After FF8 game, Dissidia
DFF has an odd dialogue when Ultimecia meets with Squall (before the fight). �踊りましょうか？"

Remember when Squall meet Rinoa for first time? Rinoa asked Squall to dance.Why Ultimecia will asks Squall to dance?

Then, the EQ of Ultimecia.

These 3 weapons, ヴァルキリー、カーディナル、シューティングスター, are all Rinoa’s weapon! Particularly the weapon that Ultimecia uses when LV 100, known as ューティングスター（shooting star).

I think so, although there is no square. It might be something unbeliveable. Why Squaresoft left so much mysteries in the end? Is it Ultimecia (Rinoa of future)?

DFF : Ultimicia’s last words: "Have you thought about? … … The kind of feeling when young, then when the words of the mood … … … … … … grow up … … give up anything left behind After what … … … … "can be seen as Ultimecia’s past as a can be Rinoa, and the memory with Squall in the past.

Although the evidence is not sufficient to fully determine the Ultimecia = Rinoa, but many players are already beginning to believe that the harsh reality ^ _ ^
FF8 has suddenly increased number of degrees, maybe this is how Square Enix/ Squaresoft to earn money…

What is your opinion on this?

Well with evidence & stuff, I found it pretty stupid…

Mainly because people don’t look at the Human side of things…

You a sorceress, with the power of time-traveling, want to see your fallen beloved again, would destroy all existence?

LAME

I’m not saying that it’s not this theory isn’t true or false though, I’m only saying that it just further proof of how poorly written the game was, a great idea transformed into garbage because of the stupid way of execute it.

P.S: At least this theory is more solid than the Squall’s Dead… (Thread 79758)

My opinion on this is false. While some of the points you make may seem credible, they are merely either A: plot device or B: Reference to FFVIII in general (aka the whole Dissidia part). However, I’ll offer a point by point counterargument.

Point 1:

Sorceress never dead in this story.
Why? Very simple, this game not mentioned how a sorceress was killed or dead, even Adel. Squall killed Adel in Lunatic Pandora, but the game can be said is Elone transfer the power of soceress to the past of Adel so Adel was not killed. Also, we all can see, Cid was much older than the Edea.

There are more than just one Sorceress in the game, and more than likely ones which we don’t see of in the game itself. This isn’t a case of ‘The Chosen One’ from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where one Sorceress dies, another is tapped. There are multiple Sorceress’s in FFVIII’s World (even in one boss battle I recall), so imo this point is one of multiple possibilities.

It seems that the official word from Square is, indeed, found in the FFVIII Ultimania Guide. But it’s not a direct comment on the issue; rather, it’s that Square mentions the fact that Sorceresses have the same lifespan as a regular human (which I think even Odine mentioned something along those lines as well). Laguna Loire himself stated that Ultimecia was a Sorceress from far in the future. So, if a Sorceress has a normal human lifespan, how can Ultimecia be Rinoa? That would, of course, make the theory impossible, since it absolutely requires Rinoa to live much longer than is typical for a person.

Point 2:

Location of the final stage
Why at behind of the orphanage? At the beginning of the game, there was such phrases: "I’ll be here waiting, I promise … …" and so on, and Rinoa also said she would go there to find Squall. Why Ultimecia has the world at her when her fortress is located in the back of an orphanage? The answer is, she was there waiting for Squall. Even though the fusion of her and the GF make her lost her consciousness and memories, she still remembered this promise that she made with Squall. The space-time compression that she made was just to meet Squall in the past.

Have you ever considered the thought that Ultimecia chose that location as a symbol? Build a fortress at the birthplace of your enemy, can send a psychological message to your foe. The promise, was what Squall and Rinoa gave each other that if they were separated, they’d return to that field. There are, once again, multiple reasons behind such a position for a powerbase. Maybe it was a nexus of power Ultimecia could draw upon, maybe it was (for her) a strategic location, maybe (as I said before) it was chosen for the psychological effect.. or maybe she just wanted a beach front property.

Look at this picture:

The SeeD’s in that picture dont appear to be dead for long, it appears that she, being that she hated SeeD’s, killed the SeeD’s of her time before casting the Time Compression spell. No SeeD’s to get in her way once she did that, she could cast it without interruption. The castle is there for the sake of it being where she last stopped, also, why on earth build a FLOATING castle if you are just going to plant it in one place? The final place she fought was the orphanage and hence the dead SeeD’s.

Point 3:

The ring of Squall
Remember the ring, Griever? The ring was with him at the beginning. Then Zell takes from Squall, and gave to Rinoa. In the final boss, Ultimecia summoned Griever. Why Griever was under the possession of Ultimecia at the later of the game?

… You can’t be serious. Griever embodied all the traits that Squall values, but also is Squall’s interpretation of the Ultimate Guardian Force. Ultimecia summoned a likeness of Griever from Squall’s mind, in a attempt to intimidate Squall and Co.

Point 4:

Wings
Ultimecia has black wings, Rinoa has white. White = Good, Black = Evil. No support facts on this yet.

And that means what exactly? As a sorceress, Ultimecia is almost the mirror opposite of Rinoa. For example, Ultimecia is an evil sorceress with black wings, while Rinoa is pure and has white wings. Additionally, Rinoa has black hair and Ultimecia has white-silver hair. Ultimecia also wears a prominent red dress, while Rinoa’s sweeper is colored light-blue. Also, Rinoa uses Angelo while fighting and Ultimecia is known in two battles (including the third battle with her) to use Griever. Griever is based on a lion, while Angelo is a dog.

While that could be construed as proof that Rinoa’s mental state became fractured and she became unstable and then became Ultimecia after Squall and the others died, it also has counterpoints to the theory as well. Same thing could be used to say that Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are the same being as well (which even after the movies etc… there are still some who believe that Darth Vader is a older form of Luke Skywalker from the future… ugh).

Point 5:

Ending Animation
There was 3 places in the ending movie, Ultimecia appears. It was pretty short, and hard to recognize. Squaresoft is not stupid to waste the effort to make she appears, no? I know, I say these things without any authority, but can you people do the things I said in the game appear?

What’s your point here? Haven’t you thought that maybe, just maybe, those scenes might’ve been made BEFORE the actual ending of the game was made? Case in point, look at FFVII and those who (with the use of a cheat device) hack Aeris back into their party after her death. There is some text for her in other areas, not much mind you, but there is some. A case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. There were multiple development teams working on FFVIII (like FFVII and other FF titles), and they don’t always get the same message.

Point 6:

After FF8 game, Dissidia
DFF has an odd dialogue when Ultimecia meets with Squall (before the fight). “踊りましょうか？"

Remember when Squall meet Rinoa for first time? Rinoa asked Squall to dance.Why Ultimecia will asks Squall to dance?

Merely a attempt at taunting Squall psychologically imo.

These 3 weapons, ヴァルキリー、カーディナル、シューティングスター, are all Rinoa’s weapon! Particularly the weapon that Ultimecia uses when LV 100, known as ューティングスター（shooting star).

Firstly, when you are attempting to use the above as proof it would be appreciated if you offered the information in English or add the English translation next to it. Second, haven’t you considered the thought that they were added as a ‘in-joke’ by SE for the fans? No? Didn’t think so.

I think so, although there is no square. It might be something unbeliveable. Why Squaresoft left so much mysteries in the end? Is it Ultimecia (Rinoa of future)?

Why did SE leave such a mystery? Simple, people love mysteries.

DFF : Ultimicia’s last words: "Have you thought about? … … The kind of feeling when young, then when the words of the mood … … … … … … grow up … … give up anything left behind After what … … … … "can be seen as Ultimecia’s past as a can be Rinoa, and the memory with Squall in the past.

Or that could be a reference to her own childhood, not linked to Squall and Co. at all. Nowhere in that does it mention Squall or hint at the others.

Although the evidence is not sufficient to fully determine the Ultimecia = Rinoa, but many players are already beginning to believe that the harsh reality ^ _ ^
FF8 has suddenly increased number of degrees, maybe this is how Square Enix/ Squaresoft to earn money…

Far as I’m concerned, SE has the final say in this… and they said Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. Deal with it.

No she is not. I know this because Square Soft replied to people saying the have no relation to one another.

Woah :/ i’ve always wondered but I think they’re different people, if it had been rinoa would she have had the heart to fight herself & her lover Squall? Eh doesn’t seem too likely to me.

Quistis is Artemisia (there is no "Ultimecia" unless you could Dissidia)

if you remember what Quistis told Squall, and Artemisia coming to Edea’s house… you will know what I mean

Quistis is Artemisia (there is no "Ultimecia" unless you could Dissidia)

if you remember what Quistis told Squall, and Artemisia coming to Edea’s house… you will know what I mean

…. Artemisia is Ultimecia’s name in the Italian and German versions of FFVIII. You are incorrect.

ARUTEMISHIA in japanese (artemisia as pronounced)…. I wonder who is incorrect ^^

ARUTEMISHIA in japanese (artemisia as pronounced)…. I wonder who is incorrect ^^

You are the one incorrect, and here’s why:

Taken from Final Fantasy Wikia (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Artemisia)

Ultimecia (アルティミシア, Arutimishia in Japanese, Artemisia in Italian and German, and Artemisa in Spanish) is the primary antagonist and the Final Boss of Final Fantasy VIII.

I say again severian, you are incorrect.

アルティミシア is artemisia in katakana…. while ultimecia is just the AMERICAN missnamer, just like tina became terra – artemisia became ultimecia ^^

artemishia = アルティミシア (write it either artemisia or not, it is still the real name of the same person we are speaking of)

It’s generally accepted that Artemisia is the Italian and German translation of Ultimecia, just like Arutimishia and Artemisa are the Japanese and Spainish translation of her name as well. Just different translations of the same name, which is Ultimecia.

how can the original be a "translation" of "ultimecia" that ONLY the americans use?
Her name is Artemisia in the rest of the world ^^

Ultimecia is the name of the final boss in FFVIII in Australia as well, and I’m willing to bet in most English speaking countries, her name is Ultimecia. The only difference is in the translation of the game to the various different countries under the PAL system, as most of those countries don’t speak English (France, Germany, Sweden, Italy etc). Case in point in the French version of FFVIII, Rinoa is translated as Linoa. Her dog Angelo is translated as Anjero in another version (with her full name being Sant’ Angelo di Roma as revealed in the FFVIII Ultimania). Even Seifer’s name is translated differently in the German version as Cifer.

In different countries, some of the names are changed due to either translation errors or (and more commonly) altered by the translation team.

I was thinking either Ultimecia is a crazed Rinoa with ‘the uber power’ or Rinoa & Squall’s daughter that goes ape shit.

I’d like to think it was something along those lines because I’m an ass.

thank you Revan dear ^^

They did?! Wow [googles it]

this should solve euri thing remeber
Griever the winged lion on squall ring thats
the gf u fight at the end when u face Ultimecia which is Rinoa.
and Rinoa was the one holdin on to squall ring Griever the most powerfull Gf there is.
so the u have it rinoa is ultimecia

this should solve euri thing remeber
Griever the winged lion on squall ring thats
the gf u fight at the end when u face Ultimecia which is Rinoa.
and Rinoa was the one holdin on to squall ring Griever the most powerfull Gf there is.
so the u have it rinoa is ultimecia

LMFAO

Ok, for the last damn time… RINOA IS NOT ULTIMECIA!

True Ultimecia summons Griever, how she draws Griever from Squall’s memories, as he imagines that Griever is the most powerful GF of them all.

Read my first post in this thread and accept it.

So deal with it gatorboyz22

It seems that only one or two people in this thread aren’t brain dead. Square already said they are NOT the same. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa. Deal with it.

And I lol’d at revan and severian’s conversation. You guys are such nerds.

It seems that only one or two people in this thread aren’t brain dead. Square already said they are NOT the same. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa. Deal with it.

This is true.

And I lol’d at revan and severian’s conversation. You guys are such nerds.

Meh whatever… Truth be told, I’m sick to death of pointing out the obvious to retards and assholes who think they know better than what SE themselves have stated. Anyone else who posts in this thread saying something along the lines of the OP, severian or gatorboyz22 can think whatever the fuck they want. I’m done with this shit.

You get riled up way to easily over something so simple. People believe whatever they want to believe, whether it be god or the flying spaghetti monster or if Rinoa is Ultemicia. But still believing in something that is obviously false (especially when the creators say it is) is, I’m sure you’ll agree, pretty stupid. But hurling out insults in the way you almost always do in debates (whether you’re right or wrong) is, also, pretty stupid. That’s what made me laugh because not just by what you were saying or how you said it, but how they responded as well.

For me, I’ll just tell them the truth and move on. If they don’t believe the truth and are too lazy to find out themselves, then they only make themselves look even more stupid than they probably already are. No use lingering about if you ask me when it comes to something like this; Square saying themselves Rinoa is not Ultimecia and people still think they’re the same. Just makes no sense!

Maybe so, but honestly I don’t really fucking care. Tired of all the bullshit arguments and stupid debates etc. No wonder so many have left this place over the years and more will continue to do so as well. If people want to think that Rinoa is Utimecia or whatever other lame ass theory they have, as of now, I don’t fucking care.

Just so damn sick and tired of all this shit… and you should know me by now IDX that I’m just sick of all this. Besides, if other members can get away with flinging insults left, right and center, why can’t I?

You were the one that told me about how you hate those members. From my perspective it looks like you’re becoming one of them. When someone is simply wrong, let them know. The other members who like to compare their internet dick sizes would do that but also single them out so the lot of them could start discussing their IQ levels, if they passed high school, or whatever they can think of to make themselves feel "bigger". Now I have no problem telling people they’re wrong if they are or if they have their own theories on certain things (in this case, video games) where the developers really didn’t say anything, then I’d just listen knowing full well that whatever theory they come up with will 90% of the time be completely wrong. This case is different, obviously, but with a simple "you’re wrong" and telling them the developers said it themselves is all that is needed. From my perspective, you’re starting to behave the same way as the idiot members you don’t like. I happen to find it hypocritical is all. Now I’m not trying to pick a fight because you’re actually one of the very very few members I respect. I just noticed that this has been going on for a while now.

But calling them stupid after saying that Square said these two are different people entirely I think is justifiable for obvious reasons. Because you know, it’s like they’re calling the ones who created the game liars pretty much.

Maybe so… but if the hat fits…

Also, the reason for a lot of my posts becoming so negative in responses etc can be attributed to some problems I’ve been suffering from for a while (High Stress/Anxiety, Severe Anger Management issues amongst a few… there are some others but I won’t go into detail here.).

Honestly, even if Square has rebuked the theory, I continue to look at the story that way regardless, because it prevents Ultimecia from being an incredibly shitty villain. Her motivation leaves me feeling exactly nothing in regard to her, because it’s shockingly generic. Yes, most of the villains in Final Fantasy want to take over/destroy the world, but most have the courtesy to have personal reasons for doing so. Sephiroth is driven to madness by the Jenova project; Seymour lusts for power after being shunned from society as a child and gaining the Final Aeon; damn, even Shuyin had a backstory that explains why he’s doing what he’s doing. Not Ultimecia.

With rebuking it, I think Square kind of shot themselves in the foot. I understand that they want the game to end up on a happy note and stick with the ‘love conquers all’ message, but still, no need to out and deny it.

I will admit, though, I do enjoy how Rinoa’s and Ultimecia’s facial models are identical.

Honestly, even if Square has rebuked the theory, I continue to look at the story that way regardless, because it prevents Ultimecia from being an incredibly shitty villain.

LOL!

This speaks for itself…

Wasn’t Ultimecia hinted to be from a future where Sorceresses were persecuted and killed due to fear of their power? SEED ended up killing her and then she traveled back in time to prevent SEED from forming and caused a huge time paradox… the thing about FF8 is that they don’t explain things directly, you have to read between the lines.

Wasn’t Ultimecia hinted to be from a future where Sorceresses were persecuted and killed due to fear of their power? SEED ended up killing her and then she traveled back in time to prevent SEED from forming and caused a huge time paradox… the thing about FF8 is that they don’t explain things directly, you have to read between the lines.

Ultimecia’s future will evenually happen, she traveled back in time to give her powers to Edea. Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa.

Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa? Where did you pull that from?

Ultimecia’s future will evenually happen, she traveled back in time to give her powers to Edea. Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa.

Just because a sorceress receives their powers from someone doesn’t make them a descendent of the one they get it from.

I said that because Rinoa’s the last sorceress that we know of. How did Ultimecia get soo powerful? I read somewhere that she had half of Hyne’s power.

I’m pretty sure Ellone is a sorceress (correct me if I’m wrong though), on top of the fact that there are many sorceresses that are probably in hiding because of the wide-spread phobia.

Honestly, even if Square has rebuked the theory, I continue to look at the story that way regardless, because it prevents Ultimecia from being an incredibly shitty villain.

… that’s your choice to believe that, however as SE has rebuked this ‘theory’, and given the ‘official’ story. Believe whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is Utimecia is not Rinoa.

Her motivation leaves me feeling exactly nothing in regard to her, because it’s shockingly generic. Yes, most of the villains in Final Fantasy want to take over/destroy the world, but most have the courtesy to have personal reasons for doing so. Sephiroth is driven to madness by the Jenova project; Seymour lusts for power after being shunned from society as a child and gaining the Final Aeon; damn, even Shuyin had a backstory that explains why he’s doing what he’s doing. Not Ultimecia.

Ultimecia’s motivation is the same as Palpatine’s from the Star Wars movies. Both knew they had enemies, and in turn created the force which defeated them. Palpatine through Vader’s Apprentice, Starkiller, united his foes into the Rebel Alliance. Ultimecia knew she would be defeated by the ‘Legendary SeeD’ and had the notion of Time Compression to make her into a God and when that failed, and due to Time Compression her powers etc went to Edea Kramer and from SeeD was started shortly after Edea received the dying Ultimecia’s powers and met Squall Leonhart from the future who told her about the SeeD. A predetermined paradox in otherwords.

With rebuking it, I think Square kind of shot themselves in the foot. I understand that they want the game to end up on a happy note and stick with the ‘love conquers all’ message, but still, no need to out and deny it.

The central theme to FFVIII is Love. FFVIII was made in a attempt to get more female gamers into the series which had mixed results I suppose…

I will admit, though, I do enjoy how Rinoa’s and Ultimecia’s facial models are identical.

It is conceivable that Ultimecia MAY be a descendant of Rinoa (and Squall), but as SE hasn’t said otherwise, that’s purely open to conjecture.

Wasn’t Ultimecia hinted to be from a future where Sorceresses were persecuted and killed due to fear of their power? SEED ended up killing her and then she traveled back in time to prevent SEED from forming and caused a huge time paradox… the thing about FF8 is that they don’t explain things directly, you have to read between the lines.

True. Read this: Final Fantasy Wikia – Ultimecia (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimecia).

Ultimecia’s future will evenually happen, she traveled back in time to give her powers to Edea. Ultimecia is a descendent of Rinoa.

Like I said in response to animeangelash, it is indeed conceivable that Ultimecia MAY[/b] descended from Rinoa (and Squall), however to say that they are related when there are other Sorceresses in the world of FFVIII (where anyone of them [i]could be Ultimecia’s Ancestor) is folly. Also, just because Rinoa’s a Sorceress doesn’t solely mean that Ultimecia got her powers from her parents. Julia Heartilly wasn’t a Sorceress, and Rinoa didn’t show any signs of Sorceress ability until Edea passed her powers onto Rinoa (who was then possessed by Ultimecia) as detailed in the game itself.

I said that because Rinoa’s the last sorceress that we know of. How did Ultimecia get soo powerful?

There were other Sorceresses, just never in the mainstream. I recall fighting some of them in a boss battle in FFVIII… can’t remember where though… IMO, Ultimecia was like a lich, possessing others and taking some of their power. Doing so, would make her more powerful than others… but that’s just me.

I read somewhere that she had half of Hyne’s power.

I would like to see a source for that statement, as I don’t personally believe that to be the case.

I’m pretty sure Ellone is a sorceress (correct me if I’m wrong though), on top of the fact that there are many sorceresses that are probably in hiding because of the wide-spread phobia.

Ellone isn’t a Sorceress. She was hunted due to her ability to send a human’s consciousness back in time. Dr Odine’s "Junction Machine Ellone" to replicate Ellone’s power, and the while the device proved successful in doing so, though not to the power and extent of Ellone’s natural ability.

If I remember correctly, the game also implies that there are more than one sorceress at a time (outside of the story which follows only the ones we know like Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia). Which would mean that whoever passed their powers to Ultimecia could’ve been anyone, not just the ones who inherit Rinoa’s power.

Probably all but outright stated, in fact, considering we have Edea Kramer AND Rinoa existing at the same time. Edea is a sorceress, right? I’m sorta rusty on my knowledge of FF8….

Now that I think about it I’m pretty sure what I said is true. My reason: Adel was still alive since the beginning of the game (well, technically before it started) which would mean besides her, Edea and eventually Rinoa were sorceresses at the same time she was. And if a sorceress can’t die until they pass their powers onto someone else, that would mean before Adel could die, she’d have to give her powers to someone else first while Rinoa was still one herself. Not sure if Edea is still one if she Rinoa inherited her powers unless she can keep hers as well but when it’s time for her to die, she won’t have to worry about passing her powers to someone else because she already did that when living.

Being a Sorceress in FFVIII isn’t like being say the Slayer from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (only one can be active at any one time). There are multiple Sorceresses in FFVIII… Edea was a Sorceress since she was 5 years old, yet didn’t let that change her from being a benign and gentle person. Unlike Ultimecia, Edea never resented the world for the prejudice it must have shown her – she spends her entire life devoted to helping others, focusing upon the children she cares for in her orphanage. It was only after she met met Ultimecia and a teenage Squall, both who had come from the future (As a result of defeating Ultimecia in the timeline of FFVIII). Ultimecia was dying, having been defeated by Squall, and Edea received Ultimecia’s powers. Squall told Edea about the SeeD and the Garden, saluting her with the SeeD salute, before disappearing

Rinoa only became a Sorceress initially due to Edea’s powers (and also Ultimecia who was possessing her) passed to Rinoa after the Battle of the Gardens. Later in the game, after defeating Adel (who was junctioned to Rinoa), the older Sorceress’s powers went to Rinoa so that Adel could die in peace.

Source files: Edea Kramer (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Edea_Kramer), Rinoa Heartily (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Rinoa_Heartilly), Ultimecia (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimecia)

Now that I think about it I’m pretty sure what I said is true. My reason: Adel was still alive since the beginning of the game (well, technically before it started) which would mean besides her, Edea and eventually Rinoa were sorceresses at the same time she was. And if a sorceress can’t die until they pass their powers onto someone else, that would mean before Adel could die, she’d have to give her powers to someone else first while Rinoa was still one herself. Not sure if Edea is still one if she Rinoa inherited her powers unless she can keep hers as well but when it’s time for her to die, she won’t have to worry about passing her powers to someone else because she already did that when living.

And I think that it was stated (or maybe implied) that the world went after many sorceresses at that point due to their inane fear of… well, Ultimecia.

Also, aside from the creators stating it, there’s enough in-game proof through reading between the lines that Ultimecia isn’t Rinoa. The concept of an FF game with a happy ending is indeed quite surprising to all.

There seems to have been yet again another stramash here.

However, unlike the last one I had the unfortunate ‘honour’ of attending, I find myself agreeing with much of what Revan says- if not his manner. If SE have stated that Ultimecia and Rinoa are not the same, then they ARE NOT THE SAME.

Though I did find it mildly amusing the way Revan used Star Wars to explain his points. If in doubt rely on the wisdom passed down by Mr Lucas himself. I’m not being smart here, I honestly did find it all very funny. No insult intended.

I do have one question though. Why did Rinoa ask for Squall’s ring?

There seems to have been yet again another stramash here.

However, unlike the last one I had the unfortunate ‘honour’ of attending, I find myself agreeing with much of what Revan says- if not his manner. If SE have stated that Ultimecia and Rinoa are not the same, then they ARE NOT THE SAME.

Though I did find it mildly amusing the way Revan used Star Wars to explain his points. If in doubt rely on the wisdom passed down by Mr Lucas himself. I’m not being smart here, I honestly did find it all very funny. No insult intended.

I do have one question though. Why did Rinoa ask for Squall’s ring?

To answer your question, the reason Rinoa gave Zell for wanting Squall’s ring, was to have a copy made for herself to wear. However, that’s open to conjecture as well as some think it was a more subtle form of emotional blackmail Rinoa would have over Squall. Or probably a more symbolic gesture, as she kept Squall’s ring on the chain around her neck with her mother’s ring on it… hence keeping the rings of the two people who mean the world to her, close to her heart.

Why didn’t she just ask for it outright? Why get Zell to ask Squall? Throughout the game she is both happy, cheerfull and a little pushy towards Squall. What mystifies me the the way she went about obtaining the ring. If it was for sentimental reasons (or any other) then I would have expected her to ask Squall personally, as this would have better suited her character.

Because she thought he probably would have said no if she’d asked him outright -remember, Squall was still very much antisocial even at that point in the game, and hadn’t begun to accept his feelings for her. So by using Zell to ask him as her proxy gave her a better chance of getting what she wanted.

Or at least, that was just my interpretation of it anyway.

I agree. Not even I would’ve given it to her. Then again, I wouldn’t have even given it to Zell if it were me.

Because she thought he probably would have said no if she’d asked him outright -remember, Squall was still very much antisocial even at that point in the game, and hadn’t begun to accept his feelings for her. So by using Zell to ask him as her proxy gave her a better chance of getting what she wanted.

Maybe, but like IDX said:

I wouldn’t have even given it to Zell if it were me.

This is a similar sentiment Squall had regarding Zell in a ways. I know that he did give the ring to Zell in the end but from Rinoa’s point of view choosing (of all people) Zell to ask Squall was a risky idea. If it ment enough to her, why would she risk it so?

The reason I ask is because:

(a) Of all the things I’ve read in this theory (which I don’t really agree with- especiall if the creators themselves state otherwise) the connection between Squall’s ring and Ultimecia’s ability to summon Griever is the only valid point made. If this connection doesn’t exist (which I have no doubt of) then what plausibe reason would Rinoa have wanted the ring for? Or why for that matter did she risk sending Zell to obtain it, Zell doesn’t have a tactful or subtle bone in his body.

(b)
Squall was still very much antisocial even at that point in the game, and hadn’t begun to accept his feelings for her.

Agreed. However, this makes the mystery even more confusing. Since Squall hadn’t even begun to accept his feelings for Rinoa then why would he relinquish his ring to her? Alright, he gave it to Zell, but he knew who had really wanted it in the first place. A ring is a symbolic statement, not something you give to just anyone. Squall was more than capable of telling Zell and Rinoa to ‘Get Lost’, so it isn’t as if he gave into peer pressure.

This is a similar sentiment Squall had regarding Zell in a ways. I know that he did give the ring to Zell in the end but from Rinoa’s point of view choosing (of all people) Zell to ask Squall was a risky idea. If it ment enough to her, why would she risk it so?

More than likely because Rinoa was embarressed and possibly afraid to tell Squall the reason she wanted the ring.

(a) Of all the things I’ve read in this theory (which I don’t really agree with- especiall if the creators themselves state otherwise) the connection between Squall’s ring and Ultimecia’s ability to summon Griever is the only valid point made. If this connection doesn’t exist (which I have no doubt of) then what plausibe reason would Rinoa have wanted the ring for? Or why for that matter did she risk sending Zell to obtain it, Zell doesn’t have a tactful or subtle bone in his body.

Squall admires lions for their strength and courage. Griever, is not only the symbol that embodies the traits Squall values dearly (dignity, strength, courage, justice as well as almost any proud courageous characteristic), but is also Squall’s interpretation of the ultimate Guardian Force. Having been summoned by Ultimecia during the final battle by extracting Griever’s likeness from Squall’s mind

The parts of the lion carry different symbolism as well; the head (which is featured prominently throughout Griever’s interpretations) means care and vigilance, and if it is winged (like on the gunblades and the ring) it represents fire.

Agreed. However, this makes the mystery even more confusing. Since Squall hadn’t even begun to accept his feelings for Rinoa then why would he relinquish his ring to her? Alright, he gave it to Zell, but he knew who had really wanted it in the first place. A ring is a symbolic statement, not something you give to just anyone. Squall was more than capable of telling Zell and Rinoa to ‘Get Lost’, so it isn’t as if he gave into peer pressure.

However, Squall was already ‘taken’ by Rinoa at that time figuratively speaking. During the Graduation Dance at Balamb, Squall was attracted to Rinoa at first sight and when Rinoa (after the dance) went off to speak to Cid, it’s obvious she had a effect on him. Regading the handing of the ring to Zell, consider that at the time Squall was busy (and also knowing how Zell can be) would it be too hard to accept that Squall gave the ring to Zell to shut him up? Or… he had a subconscious thought as to what was really behind Zell’s reason for wanting the ring.

Ultimately though, this isn’t the sort of thing which should be over analyzed. We all know what happens in FFVIII, SE has told us Rinoa is not Ultimecia, why not leave it as is?

Ultimately though, this isn’t the sort of thing which should be over analyzed. We all know what happens in FFVIII, SE has told us Rinoa is not Ultimecia, why not leave it as is?

I know that Rinoa isn’t Ultimecia. To me that is just a stupid, lame theory with no support to back any of the claims. However, I was curious as to why his ring was subject to Rinoa’s fascination. The reasons have now been stated and I am satisfied, so I am more than happy to leave it as is.

I wonder if Squall ever asked for his ring back. Or if Zell even made a replica of it. Squall is obviously very attached to his ring so one would think he would at least mention about wanting it back. I have a ring that I’m very attached to as well but on the very unrealistic chance I do lend it to someone, I would ask for it back sooner than later.

I wondered the same thing. Does anyone have an answer?……Does anyone care???? (Besides me….and IDX)

It doesn’t matter what SE say, they made FF;AC after all -.-; the fact is; rinoa=ultimecia ia a much better plotline and makes the characters and the story far more interesting, when i read the thoery on one site it was amazing, it made the FF8 story seem twice as brilliant. If I had been SE, I would’ve just held my tongue.

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The ring is one of the crown jewels of England from the the Crusades worn by Richard the first.

mmm… Yes, Quite indeed.

It doesn’t matter what SE say, they made FF;AC after all -.-; the fact is; rinoa=ultimecia ia a much better plotline and makes the characters and the story far more interesting, when i read the thoery on one site it was amazing, it made the FF8 story seem twice as brilliant. If I had been SE, I would’ve just held my tongue.

Believe whatever you want stephander, but the fact of the matter is this: Rinoa is not Ultimecia. SE has stated that as fact.

The ring is one of the crown jewels of England from the the Crusades worn by Richard the first.

Interesting… and how exactly does that fit in with this topic?

Interesting… and how exactly does that fit in with this topic?

That’s the point… He’s implying that Rinoa=Ultimecia fit in the game as much as that phrase on this discussion.

Ahh… gotcha. At least we’re hoping that’s what is implied… right?

It doesn’t matter what SE say, they made FF;AC after all -.-; the fact is; rinoa=ultimecia ia a much better plotline and makes the characters and the story far more interesting, when i read the thoery on one site it was amazing, it made the FF8 story seem twice as brilliant. If I had been SE, I would’ve just held my tongue.

What does FFAC have to do with the fact that you believe in something that has been disproved by the creators themselves? Imagine you’re a christian for a second or whatever you want and the god you worship said, "I created man as a man. They did not come from apes." Would you say, "It doesn’t matter what you say. The theory of evolution is much more interesting and makes more sense so that’s what I’m going to believe."

Same thing and the outcome is the same: it makes you look like an idiot and everyone should just point and laugh.