Or maybe you could work on your temper? And if guns were made legal the world would become even more fucked up.
I never know whether to take your threads seriously, because I know you’re prone to being a troll. Still, your idea is silly. Maybe people who think it would be sensible to allow everyone to carry firearms on the off chance they cross a moody cunt should be made illegal?
(pretty sure this isn’t a serious thread by the way. But I thought I’d put my two penneth in)
2012, ARE YOU READY?!?!
When it comes right down to it, I’m against most firearm restriction/regulation on the principle that people (I) should not be punished for the actions of others and that everyone should be able to do as they please, as long as they don’t bring harm to others (me). The simple fact that one can use a firearm safely and responsibly, is all that is needed to validate their existence and use, in my view.
If through malice or incompetence someone harms another, blame them. Assigning any responsibility to the tool isn’t going to get anything done (that box can’t be shut), just goes to partially absolve who is really responsible.
The same idea applies to many other situations.
I’m sure at least some of you think alcohol is responsible for drunk driving, fire for arson, tsunamis for the deaths of people who flock to watch them come in, or scanty clothing for rape. Well, you’re idiots.
Stupid people who use guns should be illegal.
Zombie Ninja Nazis
2012, ARE YOU READY?!?!
When it comes right down to it, I’m against most firearm restriction/regulation on the principle that people (I) should not be punished for the actions of others and that everyone should be able to do as they please, as long as they don’t bring harm to others (me). The simple fact that one can use a firearm safely and responsibly, is all that is needed to validate their existence and use, in my view.
If through malice or incompetence someone harms another, blame them. Assigning any responsibility to the tool isn’t going to get anything done (that box can’t be shut), just goes to partially absolve who is really responsible.
The same idea applies to many other situations.
I’m sure at least some of you think alcohol is responsible for drunk driving, fire for arson, tsunamis for the deaths of people who flock to watch them come in, or scanty clothing for rape. Well, you’re idiots.
I’m incline to agree with this. When it comes down to it, it’s the responsibility of the person who used said-object. I’m sure there are valid arguments against this, but out of sheer laziness (I’m at work right now), I don’t want to think of them.
I’m not going to spend time turning my feelings into words for people who think guns are good, because they don’t get it and won’t untill they get killed by an angry 15 year old kid, or a drive by, or a random flying bullet, and it goes on and on.
I’ve an idea, why not give everyone here admin powers, and see what happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thsa5kdBMgw&feature=channel
Also watch the "Have We Reached the Tipping Point on Gun Violence?" vid.
This.
Unfortunately, some of the stupidest people are in the government, military or police, and we give them high powered weaponry.
I don’t like the idea of being outgunned by those in power.
I’m not going to spend time turning my feelings into words for people who think guns are good, because they don’t get it and won’t untill they get killed by an angry 15 year old kid, or a drive by, or a random flying bullet, and it goes on and on.
I’ve an idea, why not give everyone here admin powers, and see what happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thsa5kdBMgw&feature=channel
Also watch the "Have We Reached the Tipping Point on Gun Violence?" vid.
Good video. America can shoot eachother up, I dont care. As long as guns stay illegal in Australia, I’m happy.
Yay for 7 and ten being owned by newscorp.
So do sticks, stones, knives, cars, fire, rope, gravity, food, beer, etc.
Also, a single gunshot wound is fatal about one time in twenty.
I’m not going to spend time turning my feelings into words for people who think guns are good, because they don’t get it and won’t untill they get killed by an angry 15 year old kid, or a drive by, or a random flying bullet, and it goes on and on.
~30,000 people in the US are killed by firearms per year. About 17,000 of these are suicides. Only about 11,000 are (unjustifiable) homicides, out of 2.5 million total deaths per year (in the US).
Can you say drop in the bucket?
Tobacco use is responsible for ~440,000 deaths per year in the US.
People eating too much kills anywhere between 100,000 and 400,000 americans per year, depending on how you argue the facts.
Alcohol related deaths number ~85,000
Poisoning (mostly accidental) results in ~55,000 deaths.
Motor vehicles: ~43,000 deaths a year.
Sex: ~20,000, almost as many people in the US as firearms, and many more than non-suicide firearm deaths.
Hell, doctors accidentally kill 120,000 people per year in the US, though statisically most of these deaths fall under other causes.
For the vast majority of people fear of being shot to death in the US (one of the highest rates of firearm related deaths among first world countries) is about as irrational of a fear as you can get.
Unless they decide to kill themselves, there is about a 1 in 250 chance of someone dying as a result of a shooting. I’ve lived in areas with fairly high rates of violent crime, and I have never met anyone who was later killed by a gun shot that was not self-inflicted. I have admitedly met a few people who were shot and who survived.
The only shooting I can recall for the area I’m in now was perpetrated by a police officer who shot his girlfriend and five or six or her friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thsa5kdBMgw&feature=channel
Also watch the "Have We Reached the Tipping Point on Gun Violence?" vid.
A load of asinine reasoning, fear mongering, and an extremely biased presentation of facts.
I don’t like the idea of people owning guns, because people are stupid.
Unfortunately, some of the stupidest people are in the government, military or police, and we give them high powered weaponry.
I don’t like the idea of being outgunned by those in power.
And that is precisely why the second amendment exists. The people have the right to defy or remove a government that no long serves their best interests.
[Citation Needed]
Unfortunately, some of the stupidest people are in the government, military or police, and we give them high powered weaponry.
I don’t like the idea of being outgunned by those in power.
I hope you’re not suggesting that the legality of owning guns means you won’t be outgunned by those in power X_X
Anyone who can google can find all the sources I used and ten more that say the same thing.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/deaths.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/LCWK9_2005.pdf
http://www.csdp.org/research/1238.pdf
…and so on.
I hope you’re not suggesting that the legality of owning guns means you won’t be outgunned by those in power X_X
A well armed populace will make it very difficult for a blatantly oppressive government, even if the military the government controls is far better armed.
While not precisely the same situation, the effectiveness of the insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq prove that you don’t need to outgun someone to cause them serious problems.
How does that logic work? Also gun crime and gun laws tend to be more severe in urban areas, especially those with high crime rates.
Nobody should really own a gun though.
A large portion of guns are used for hunting, and most hunting is done outside of dangerous neighborhoods.
That seems rather common to me, then
Since 250 out of 250 people die, I’m still going to argue that it’s an uncommon form of death.
"Everyone dies anyway" is never a good argument for anything.
I never used the "everyone dies anyway" argument, except to show that relationship. And in this case, I think it’s a perfectly viable argument.
I mean seriously.
That because when you die from a gun it’s because of some weak loser that has no respect for life, or like I said a random shot from some weak loser that has no respect for life, or maybe your a kid and your dad that is some weak loser that has no respect for life, left it loaded. Or what ever. You can only die from a gun if some weak loser that has no respect for life uses them.
I’m done with copynpaste for now.
You can only die from a gun if some weak loser that has no respect for life uses them.
So everyone who has ever killed (with a firearm) to protect their lives, the lives of their family, or their property, is a "weak looser" and has no "respect for life"?.
Every police officer, or soldier, who has ever opened fire on, and killed, some one to protect themselves, or those they were sworn to defend, is a "weak looser"?
Everyone who has made an honest mistake while hunting and fataly shot another hunter had "no respect for life" and is automatically a "weak looser"?
How are these situations, or any other killings, really any different from countless ones that occur without firearms?
or maybe your a kid and your dad that is some weak loser that has no respect for life, left it loaded
Should people be locking eachother in padded rooms to prevent them from having any means of killing themselves, accidentally or intentionally?
And to the second, they are different (if you have not read when I said it before) because it’s so easy.
And the third, if people want to kill themselves then fine. Go ahead just don’t kill anyone else.
And just so you know when it comes to death, the needs of one are equal to the needs of many, it does not matter if one person dies or if one million die, you can’t justify saving many over one. nor can you justify saving one over many, it’s all equal.
So, you’d just let someone kill you, or your spouse, or your children, or your best friend, rather than kill them?
(For humans) By that I mean humans should never kill Anything intentionally.
Do you live on a purely mineral diet?
And to the second, they are different (if you have not read when I said it before) because it’s so easy.
Humans are fragile. Guns may make it a bit easier to kill from a distance, but they are hardly the only easy way for someone to die, or be killed.
You could turn the wheel of your car 10 degrees and takeout everyone in the vehicle coming at you from the other lane, or several people on a crowded sidewalk. If you want to kill someone who is close to you, or isn’t suspecting it, it should be about as easy to use a knife.
There are often as many or more murders not commited with firearms as otherwise, even where firearms are readily available. The non-firearm murder rate in the US exceeds the total murder rate of many european countries. That’s another reason why I think you are associating guns with human deaths too closely.
And just so you know when it comes to death, the needs of one are equal to the needs of many, it does not matter if one person dies or if one million die, you can’t justify saving many over one. nor can you justify saving one over many
I have a different opinion.
it’s all equal.
Unless you know arithmetic.
if one person had to die in order for the ENTIRE world to be saved, you still think that it shouldn’t happen? that the entire population should be wiped out instead? i kind of disagree with you about this, but i do agree that one person should not be sacrificed for the masses (in like, their rights being violated, etc. for clarification, read "those who walked away from omelas")
You have a good reason why not?
No I don’t, life does not increase in value the more of it there is.
And Blameless i’ll reply later startreks on.
+1
A FACEPALM TO YOU SIR!
While not precisely the same situation, the effectiveness of the insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq prove that you don’t need to outgun someone to cause them serious problems.
I agree an armed populace could cause the government problems if it really did come down to war between the people and the government. And I also have absolute confidence that, should it come down to it, enough people would resist to make it seriously difficult for them.
Unfortunately though, we’re talking about one of the hugest, most advanced, and most well-funded militaries in the world (even despite the economic recession) against an admittedly larger number of people with pea shooters. The 2nd amendment was written at a time when muzzle-loaded rifles were the norm.
If it actually came down to the kind of rebellion we’re talking about here, the weapons that Americans can legally own would be useless; we’d all just get run over by tanks.
Home-made explosives, seizures of military or even police weapons, and that sort of thing would be the main way of fighting back, and that really isn’t much affected by whether you’re legally allowed to own a pistol or a hunting rifle.
This same military is repeated delayed, foiled, and harrassed by guerrilla forces one-tenth it’s size, with no comparison in funds.
If it actually came down to the kind of rebellion we’re talking about here, the weapons that Americans can legally own would be useless; we’d all just get run over by tanks.
The weapons that americans can currently, legally, own won’t take out a tank, or shoot down planes. That doesn’t mean they won’t be an asset.
Also, tanks don’t do so well in cities, and even the best of them can be disabled with easily improvised weapons.
Home-made explosives, seizures of military or even police weapons, and that sort of thing would be the main way of fighting back, and that really isn’t much affected by whether you’re legally allowed to own a pistol or a hunting rifle.
I agree with the first part, disagree with the second.
It’s easier to obtain these things when you have only small arms, than it is if you have no firearms at all. Also, many civilan weapons actually compare rather favorably with military hardware. The only difference between many of them is automatic vs. semi auto fire. The 12-gauge slugs I can buy at wal-mart will penetrate body armor better than the 5.56mm NATO round. Also, when it comes to sniper rifiles, civilians have the same quality, and probably greater quantities.
You make some good points, but I firmly believe that the 150 million firearms in private hands will make it much faster and easier to raise effective millitia’s and paramilitary forces, for whatever purpose, if such things are needed.
lolled hard
A FACEPALM TO YOU SIR!
Either that or I’m just a nice guy. I know how bad the human world is. Just because I did not give up on it years ago like you does not mean I’m oblivious and naive Mr I hate garamond for no good reason.
Anyway, Blameless I do eat meat. But only because it’s given to me by my mum, I don’t buy meat myself. It’s something I have to put up with.
Delayed/foiled/harassed isn’t going to really accomplish that much, though. That is the nature of guerrilla forces, and it works to some extent, but ultimately it’s like a dog biting at the heels of an elephant. The US military always still comes out on top in those situations, it can just take a while.
The weapons that americans can currently, legally, own won’t take out a tank, or shoot down planes. That doesn’t mean they won’t be an asset.
Also, tanks don’t do so well in cities, and even the best of them can be disabled with easily improvised weapons.
I agree with the first part, disagree with the second.
It’s easier to obtain these things when you have only small arms, than it is if you have no firearms at all. Also, many civilan weapons actually compare rather favorably with military hardware. The only difference between many of them is automatic vs. semi auto fire. The 12-gauge slugs I can buy at wal-mart will penetrate body armor better than the 5.56mm NATO round. Also, when it comes to sniper rifiles, civilians have the same quality, and probably greater quantities.
You make some good points, but I firmly believe that the 150 million firearms in private hands will make it much faster and easier to raise effective millitia’s and paramilitary forces, for whatever purpose, if such things are needed.
I guess, but what I’m saying is I don’t really see this as a very good argument for allowing citizens to own weapons, because it’s just not a big enough impact to really make a difference in the event of a war between the government and the populace. You might be able to make some limited progress but really I mean the issue isn’t so much tanks themselves, I was just using that as a comparison like the dog and elephant thing. My point is that if such an extreme and unlikely scenario were to come up, people are going to have ways of getting the weapons they need anyway, and without doing that they’d get crushed, so I just don’t see how that amendment is really relevant anymore.
what does that have anything to do with ANYTHING you’re saying? that has no relation to being oblivious OR naive. and ftr, i don’t think neg hates garamond. also, coconut milk, maybe there are reasons that happened that you don’t know about that would cause neg to "hate" him (which, like i said, i doubt he does). you really shouldn’t say nonsense like that until you know about everything that has gone on.
I have no need; sure I could go to a gun range w/ it or smthng
but, realistically, it’d be placed somewhere away from the world
collecting dust to the point of me forgetting
its existence (not liter., but general…). If someone were to try and rob me in my house
I wouldn’t instinctively think "Go for the gun…!"
(I doubt that if I were even in the gun’s vicinity, I’d be able to access it in
the presence of a watchful robber… esp. if they had a gun…!)
at that point, I am in no position to do anything risky
If possible, I’d do nothing that would motivate a criminal to shoot me
but w/e
I miss my toy guns…
It’s to do with what neg was saying to me on msn. That I’m naive because I think he should not dislike garamond. I argued that I don’t dislike anyone so why should he, and was trying to get neg to come into garachat.
It does not matter what someone does to you, theres no need to hate or dislike them, I’ve have people do lots of bad stuff to me, but I never fall to the level of not likeing someone for it. I will understand that they have some problem but never hate them. I don’t know if neg "hates" garamond, really I don’t think he does. But I do think he does not like him.
I’m all for someone debating the topic of the legality of gun ownership. I’m all for someone believing in gun control. I do, however, think that you are doing a detriment to the side of the debate you fall on, least of all because you decide to bring up personal issues you have with me.
Take note of how TK is debating the issue, and start there if you’d like to participate further. Note that I’m not saying my posts in this thread are of the utmost value. Still, I’m not trying to pass them off as legitimate arguments. My comments about you stand, especially in light of your responses on this third page.
I’m all for someone debating the topic of the legality of gun ownership. I’m all for someone believing in gun control. I do, however, think that you are doing a detriment to the side of the debate you fall on, least of all because you decide to bring up personal issues you have with me.
Take note of how TK is debating the issue, and start there if you’d like to participate further. Note that I’m not saying my posts in this thread are of the utmost value. Still, I’m not trying to pass them off as legitimate arguments. My comments about you stand, especially in light of your responses on this third page.
It was not irrelevent information, I was replying to you.
I don’t have "personal issues" with you.
You said I’m "naive, optimistic, and generally oblivious to the realities of the world" my reply stating to you in a reply to you not replying to the general topic.. That "you hate garamond for no good reason", has everything to do with what you said about me before in the msn chat.
"Coconut Milk has proven to me repeatedly" Does this other occasion not exist anymore? This other off topic occasion?
Your the one who strayed off topic calling me those things. so my reply was off topic.
There is nothing naive, optimistic or oblivious in my posts about guns, or about garamond. Just because you can’t seem to love everyone does not mean I’m like that.
Maybe you should learn to accept other opinions rather than saying I’m naive and oblivious.
The US military was ultimately driven out of Vietnam, and it’s still up in the air as to how the situation in Iraq will turn out. Raw firepower is one thing, but if the government has proven that it lacks the will to do what is needed to come out on top in conflicts like Vietnam, what makes you think it would have the will to decimate a large portion of it’s own populace?
In a full blown rebellion, neither the government, nor the military, would remain one cohesive entity for long. Any popular cause is going to have supporters all over, including within the government and the military. It wouldn’t be like the Civil War either. There are no longer issues that are so geographically specific to limit rebellion to an easily partitionable area; there would be no defined front. Most of the military’s big hardware, designed to wage war against nations and infrastructure, could not be used in a conflict such as this without significant risk to those still loyal to the government, or the the assets of such people. And if you start killing the family and friends of your own soldiers, morale is going to suffer, if they don’t turn on you outright.
Anyway, if small arms couldn’t make a difference, they would not be assigned to virtually every soldier that has any chance what so ever of encountering hostiles, plus most that don’t. Infantry, and the small arms they carry, are still the backbone of much combat (especially urban).
My point is that if such an extreme and unlikely scenario were to come up, people are going to have ways of getting the weapons they need anyway, and without doing that they’d get crushed, so I just don’t see how that amendment is really relevant anymore.
I agree that the likelihood of violent revolution is extremely small. As screwed up as the government is, I do think a majority of the checks and balances still work well enough. I also agree that this part of the intent behind the second amendment is less valid now than in the past. We’ll have to agree to disagree about just how valid it is.
However, this is certainly not all the second amendment encompasses.
Accepting that someone has an opinion that is different than mine is something I am perfectly capable of doing. That is very different from "loving everyone."
Believing that you love everyone is naive. Q.E.D.
:takethat:
Accepting that someone has an opinion that is different than mine is something I am perfectly capable of doing. That is very different from "loving everyone."
Believing that you love everyone is naive. Q.E.D.
I heart you, Neg. 😉
LOL!
actually, some things make up just can’t fix
Well keep in mind the government was being hounded by people against the war in the first place, and it would only have made things worse if they’d gone to further extremes. Plus, that war was being fought in a totally different sort of terrain by forces that knew the land. And, though outgunned, were certainly better trained and equipped than a bunch of citizens with handguns would be. It’s an interesting comparison, but I don’t think it’s quite close enough.
Anyway, in the unlikely scenario we’re talking about, the government is already killing its own citizens so I see no reason why they wouldn’t take whatever measures were necessary to secure their power. The politicians would no longer be answering to the voices of protesters.
In a full blown rebellion, neither the government, nor the military, would remain one cohesive entity for long. Any popular cause is going to have supporters all over, including within the government and the military. It wouldn’t be like the Civil War either. There are no longer issues that are so geographically specific to limit rebellion to an easily partitionable area; there would be no defined front. Most of the military’s big hardware, designed to wage war against nations and infrastructure, could not be used in a conflict such as this without significant risk to those still loyal to the government, or the the assets of such people. And if you start killing the family and friends of your own soldiers, morale is going to suffer, if they don’t turn on you outright.
I agree completely with this, but I think that’s one of the reasons why the event we’re talking about is so unlikely in itself, not necessarily an argument about what it would be like if it did. We’re already assuming that, for some reason or another, the government is genuinely at war with the citizens, which would require that it’s held together in a cohesive form.
Anyway, if small arms couldn’t make a difference, they would not be assigned to virtually every soldier that has any chance what so ever of encountering hostiles, plus most that don’t. Infantry, and the small arms they carry, are still the backbone of much combat (especially urban).
Well, for one thing those soldiers are highly trained, and for another thing those weapons are provided as supplements, not the main force. I mean, yes, this is true—but what I’m arguing is that although a backbone is necessary, a backbone without the rest of the body is pretty useless.
However, this is certainly not all the second amendment encompasses.
Yeah, I should have said relevant to the issue of gun ownership, not just "relevant."
Fwiw I’m more or less in agreement with Blameless’ points.
Oh crap, I need a gun so I can live an honest life!
Arm bears instead, please, T_T !
"It’s in the constitution, therefore it’s right"
All male citizens (or those who have declared an intent to become citizens) aged 17 to 45 and all females in the National Guards are technically part of the militia of the United States of America.
Regardless, the Supreme Court has ruled that the second amendment does not limit the right to bear arms to a militia; it’s an individual right (District of Columbia v. Heller).
"It’s in the constitution, therefore it’s right"
Rights are subjective, but the "supreme law of the land", as they say, does allow individuals to keep and bear arms.
Personally, I’d consider it a right even if it was expressly forbidden and highly criminal.
I would like to meet this Joe Blow.
Personally, I’d consider it a right even if it was expressly forbidden and highly criminal.
There’s no such thing as rights. You don’t have a right to breathe, let alone carry a gun.
People in America are indoctrinated with the idea because a bunch of aristocrats a couple centuries ago adopted the terminology as a way of telling a foreign power to fuck off.
I can see what you’re saying. You don’t want anyone telling you what you can or can’t possess. I can understand this and on principle I can’t really support it either, and ultimately what I’d really like to see is everyone just not wanting guns in the first place, but I also can’t see myself opposing something that stops people from having them, since that would be a better situation than if people do have them.
Firearms are tools with many uses and there is no consistent or credible evidence that suggests gun control laws prevent other crime. What exactly would change for the better if we didn’t have firearms?
The day firearms are banned outright is the day I setup a machine shop and become a gunsmith. Judging from past history (prohibition, the war on drugs), it would pay for itself inside 6 months.
A lot of people.
Just have it so that you can’t carry them in public places, and post more guard in the streets.
Unacceptable.
A big advantage to having an armed populace is the common people being able to protect themselves from the government and other groups that would employ such forces, should these groups get too far out of line.
Sounding a little alarmist and conspiracy-theorist there, ain’t ya?
I really don’t particularly think there’s any legitimate dangers going on that we don’t know about, and as it happens there’s currently a large number of nutballs out there trying to make out that the world as we know it relies on locking ourselves in houses and barricading the doors against the very government itself…it’s a little ludicrous.
Firearms are tools with many uses and there is no consistent or credible evidence that suggests gun control laws prevent other crime. What exactly would change for the better if we didn’t have firearms?
Then you’re just using "right" as "something I am capable of." By that definition it is the government’s right to prevent you from owning firearms if they are able to do so.
I don’t think firearms have many uses. They have one use, causing harm or death. Countries that have stricter laws about firearms have lower gun violence rates than the US. This makes a lot of sense. In those countries it is harder to get guns, so less people have them. This may also have to do with the fact that America just has unusually high crime rates in general and Americans are probably excessively exposed to and interested in violence compared to other countries, but I think the point still stands.
Guns aren’t like drugs and alcohol. They require a lot of time, precision, special equipment and expertise to make. Blameless’s Machine Shop cannot produce guns on the scale that Blameless’s Grow-Op would be able to produce marijuana. To make a lot of guns you must manufacture them, and that is very difficult to do without being regulated. Furthermore you would require far, far more startup capital and have to charge far more for your guns than you would for homemade guns or marijuana grown in your basement; most people could probably not easily pay for them. I don’t see how it could possibly be any easier, or even just as easy to get ahold of guns if people weren’t allowed to carry them legally.
The US was formed after a revolution and the basic right to revolution is recognized in the Declaration of Independence. It’s not alarmist or a conspiracy-theorist until people start fearing that the government is out to get them and begin plotting in groups to fight them off. Thankfully the same wonderful document lets us know that humans are sluggish fools who are willing to take plenty of shit smiling rather than risk losing what is familiar to us standing up to it, so there’s no reason to worry about anything happening right now.
Then you’re just using "right" as "something I am capable of." By that definition it is the government’s right to prevent you from owning firearms if they are able to do so.
It is though. And they often do just that. The debate over rights ultimately is about managing what people will protect and what they will restrict, and the government matters in so far as the government is a powerful aid in those efforts.
Criminals will always find a way to arm themselves. At least with the sane states that allow open and/or concealed carry – if people would stop being gay and use their right – criminals would be scared shitless since an armed citizen can take them down (as recently happened to an unlucky black gangbanger in Omaha, NE).
And people crying about criminals getting shot? Get real. They had it coming, and it saves the government loads of money. Not to mention makes your streets safer.
Also, the primary reason the US has a right to bear arms in the constitution from the founding fathers, is so that we have a chance to overthrow the government if it becomes tyrannical. And it’s getting there, sadly.
And you wonder why they’re hellbent on taking guns away. It’s NOT from all you whiny fuckwits crying for them to take them away – everything that happens is always by the agenda of some schmuck politician. But then nobody really cares, hell they’re wiretapping pretty much the entire internet with the excuse "to fight terrorism", but it’s a load of crap and they’re getting away with it.
AT&T is one company getting paid by the gov for this wiretapping – don’t ever give them your money. More at EFF.org on that case.
And if guns were made legal the world would become even more fucked up.
You’re a fucking idiot, they are legal. I can put on a holster, stick a loaded pistol in it, and walk around town legally. Cops can give me guff about it, but they can’t do shit else. Hell I could do the same with an AR15 (someone did this actually, he was asked to leave a restaurant lol), though that actually should be banned since nobody sane’s going to carry something so bulky and intimidating around. Of course, this varies by state and city regulations. Fortunately some places are sane enough to allow it.
Open carry should be used more often to get people used to seeing guns and get over this moronic phobia. Some places require no permit, and the ones that do are usually cheaper than a concealed permit.
In the old days, everyone had a gun, and criminals still did their thing just as they do today, but I’m willing to bet the criminals also got shot at more back then, none of this pansy ass "don’t fire unless you absolutely have to, and let them steal your shit if you dont feel your life is in danger" back then.
A lot of morons living in fantasy land.
Fixed
edit: LOL just realized kakashi necro’d this thread. such a troll.
just because something isn’t tangible doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or that it’s a useless concept. if you want to argue that rights don’t exist you’re more than able to, but it’s a silly route to take if you want to have some sort of justified version of organized society.
… that being said, i don’t believe in a (natural, inalienable) right to bear arms. i sure as fuck believe we have a natural inalienable right to life and liberty though. those are rights that transcend laws.
Not in the slightest, unless you think well documented, near universally acknowledged history, is a conspiracy.
There are countless laws, firearm regulations among them, that are more than enough reason for many to think that they need protection from their government. I personally feel there are many things that I should be able to do, that are in and of themselves of no harm to anyone in any way, that are still quite illegal.
Suggesting that the potential need to protect one’s self from one’s government is alarmist or needs be at all related to any conspiracy on the part of said government is absurd.
The government seeks to impose limitations on me that I do not agree with. Fact. I would like protection from this treatment. This is a fucking given. Not hard to grasp.
Then you’re just using "right" as "something I am capable of." By that definition it is the government’s right to prevent you from owning firearms if they are able to do so.
Sure. And there are laws that the government has beholden itself to that prevents it from categorically banning firearms.
I don’t think firearms have many uses. They have one use, causing harm or death.
I’d put a serious wager on the vast majority of firearm owners and users having never used a firearm to cause any injury or any death with a firearm, to a human or otherwise. It’s a sport for many people, and there are many, many other things that exist for no other purpose than people enjoy them. I don’t see any issue with this.
Firearms are also used to hunt, and much of what is hunted is eaten. A decent subset of this is fairly necessary as well. There are people who depend on the meat they hunt to a notable degree.
Yes, some times other humans are harmed or killed by firearms. However, most of the time this is to prevent a crime, or in self defense.
Only a tiny minority of firearm related uses result in the unlawful death or injury of a person.
Countries that have stricter laws about firearms have lower gun violence rates than the US.
A lot of them do, but most certainly not all of them.
This makes a lot of sense. In those countries it is harder to get guns, so less people have them. This may also have to do with the fact that America just has unusually high crime rates in general and Americans are probably excessively exposed to and interested in violence compared to other countries, but I think the point still stands.
Only slightly more than half of murders in the US are committed with firearms. There are dozens of countries whose total murder rate is lower than the non-firearm murder rate in the US.
US is #8 in the world in murders with firearms and #25 in murders overall. This says that people tend to prefer guns, but the statistics overall say that if someone is out to kill you, lack of one isn’t that big of a deal.
Guns aren’t like drugs and alcohol. They require a lot of time, precision, special equipment and expertise to make. Blameless’s Machine Shop cannot produce guns on the scale that Blameless’s Grow-Op would be able to produce marijuana.
I am not entirely unfamiliar with CNC machines and CAD (I also have all the time in the world to learn more). All I would need to mill some guns is some easily pirateable software, publicly available specifications, steel, and the milling machines (expensive, but I could afford one, especially if it was used). The only components of a firearm I could not make this way would be very long barrels (not an issue if trying to make concealable weapons) and springs (which are cheap and easily available).
To make a lot of guns you must manufacture them, and that is very difficult to do without being regulated.
Not on a small scale.
Furthermore you would require far, far more startup capital and have to charge far more for your guns than you would for homemade guns or marijuana grown in your basement; most people could probably not easily pay for them.
To grow an significant quantity of weed I would either need a decent bit of land to do it outside, or a big hydroponics setup and lots of extra insulation for my basement. Probably a bit cheaper than a decent milling machine, but not by much, and the footprint would be much larger.
An individual firearm would cost more than a modest quantity of weed, but I wouldn’t have to sell very many to bring in the the same kind of profit.
I don’t see how it could possibly be any easier, or even just as easy to get ahold of guns if people weren’t allowed to carry them legally.
I don’t think it would get that much harder. There are huge numbers in circulation, and by the time these were confiscated, smuggling and small-time producers would make up for much of the loss. Law enforcement and military personnel would also still need to be equipped, and increasingly more of these supplies would be "lost" or "stolen" as their values increased.
So no, it would not get easier, but it wouldn’t get much harder, just more expensive. It wouldn’t stop shit, and would be a huge boon for organized crime, just like prohibition was, and the war on drugs is.
Criminals will always find a way to arm themselves. At least with the sane states that allow open and/or concealed carry – if people would stop being gay and use their right – criminals would be scared shitless since an armed citizen can take them down (as recently happened to an unlucky black gangbanger in Omaha, NE).
And people crying about criminals getting shot? Get real. They had it coming, and it saves the government loads of money. Not to mention makes your streets safer.
Also, the primary reason the US has a right to bear arms in the constitution from the founding fathers, is so that we have a chance to overthrow the government if it becomes tyrannical. And it’s getting there, sadly.
And you wonder why they’re hellbent on taking guns away. It’s NOT from all you whiny fuckwits crying for them to take them away – everything that happens is always by the agenda of some schmuck politician. But then nobody really cares, hell they’re wiretapping pretty much the entire internet with the excuse "to fight terrorism", but it’s a load of crap and they’re getting away with it.
AT&T is one company getting paid by the gov for this wiretapping – don’t ever give them your money. More at EFF.org on that case.
You’re a fucking idiot, they are legal. I can put on a holster, stick a loaded pistol in it, and walk around town legally. Cops can give me guff about it, but they can’t do shit else. Hell I could do the same with an AR15 (someone did this actually, he was asked to leave a restaurant lol), though that actually should be banned since nobody sane’s going to carry something so bulky and intimidating around. Of course, this varies by state and city regulations. Fortunately some places are sane enough to allow it.
Open carry should be used more often to get people used to seeing guns and get over this moronic phobia. Some places require no permit, and the ones that do are usually cheaper than a concealed permit.
In the old days, everyone had a gun, and criminals still did their thing just as they do today, but I’m willing to bet the criminals also got shot at more back then, none of this pansy ass "don’t fire unless you absolutely have to, and let them steal your shit if you dont feel your life is in danger" back then.
Fixed
edit: LOL just realized kakashi necro’d this thread. such a troll.
I’d argue that nobody sane is going to be walking around with a pistol. I didn’t read the rest of your post.
There are well over three million concealed carry permit holders in the United States, meaning they almost certainly are walking around with a pistol at some point in their daily lives.
If you think they are all insane, well…
If you can’t think of any reason it may be a good idea to have a pistol, you’re just naive.
Yes, I’d say they’re all pretty insane. Maybe these people have to carry a concealed weapon because there’s 2,999,999 other crazies with weapons around too.
Is it not reasonable to want to be at least as well armed as your potential foe?
I don’t think anybody should be armed. At the very least, I don’t think anybody outside of police should be legally allowed to carry concealable weapons.
We own several guns, but we only have them out of necessity. The only way we can keep kangaroos/hares/ducks out of our crops is by shooting them. I guess what I’m saying here is I think it’s fine to own guns for hunting and maybe even for protection (I’m sure nothing more than a threat is required – trigger happy people are retarded).
Also, I’m not sure what sort of opposition you’d have to get from the government to want to use a weapon against them (in the US at least), but I can guarantee you it won’t help your position at all.
For me tho, I keep some sort of strange bat with the words "noCk" on a sticker plastered to it. I call it "The Knock-Stick of Great Justice". I reckon if Ness can deal massive damage with an everyday baseball bat in EarthBound, I should be able to deal even worse with a bat that looks somewhat like a baseball bat but is squarish, heavy, and has sharp ridges on it.
Yes, I’d say they’re all pretty insane. Maybe these people have to carry a concealed weapon because there’s 2,999,999 other crazies with weapons around too.
I don’t know why I’m bothering to reply to someone as retarded to you.
But here’s a prime example of why (responsible) citizens should all be armed.
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100426/NEWS97/100429632
edit: why in the flying fuck is k-p-t-m censored
If the police have them, I want them (or would at least prefer someone not police have them to balance things out). Police are not infailable, not uncorruptable, and a lot of them aren’t even remotely close to what you are likely to consider good people.
Also, if anyone has them, everyone may as well have them. A very significant minority (about 20-25%) of police killed in the line of duty are killed with their own weapons.
We own several guns, but we only have them out of necessity. The only way we can keep kangaroos/hares/ducks out of our crops is by shooting them. I guess what I’m saying here is I think it’s fine to own guns for hunting and maybe even for protection
Necessity could be argued for many situations.
(I’m sure nothing more than a threat is required – trigger happy people are retarded).
Being armed, or simply having people who may wish you harm be unsure if you are armed or not, can be a great deterrent and that is another argument for the personal ownership of firearms.
However, the threat of force does not always work. Not everyone who gets shot in self defense is shot by a trigger happy individual. Not everyone will back down simply because you are able to produce a gun; you may gave to use it.
Let’s say I’m trying to beat up or rape Cassie and she tries to stop this by threatening me with a pistol. I’m going to be quite outraged at that kind of audacity from her and would immediately attack. Any hesitation on her part and her weapon would become my weapon.
The rate at which well armed, well trained, police, who are usually not alone, are killed by their own or a partner’s weapon that had been taken from them, is further evidence that deterrence is not enough.
Also, I’m not sure what sort of opposition you’d have to get from the government to want to use a weapon against them (in the US at least), but I can guarantee you it won’t help your position at all.
My only position is day to day survival, protection of what I perceive as mine, and not being told what or what not to, if I can possibly avoid it.
… that being said, i don’t believe in a (natural, inalienable) right to bear arms. i sure as fuck believe we have a natural inalienable right to life and liberty though. those are rights that transcend laws.
Wait, you really think that the concept of rights are a prerequisite for an organized society? Why? They are a rather recent fabrication, and there’s no reason whatsoever that anybody needs to claim you have a right to something in order to make laws protecting it.
For example if we want people to be allowed to own guns, we don’t need to claim, with no basis in reality, that they "have a right" to do so. We just need to say "under these circumstances it is legal to own a firearm." If we want to say people have a right not to be unjustly attacked, we can say what we really mean and just make a law that says you can’t assault people. This is in effect what we do, but people are still hell bent on clinging to this idea that they have a "right" towards something, and even that they have a "right" towards not something.
Why do we have a natural inalienable right to life and liberty? Where did it come from? Do we have it because God gave it to us? Do we have it because Thomas Jefferson said so? Because John Locke said so? (He said it was because God gave it to us so I guess that would ultimately be the same as #1.) I don’t see justification for any of these sources as originators of rights.
It is a poor way of talking about moral responsibilities in my opinion because it suggests two things: 1) That people can reasonably have a sense of entitlement about things and they don’t need to explain it, they just "have a right," and 2) that the only reason we need to respect other people is because they have "rights" and we have to avoid those things, so good behavior is avoiding an intangible behavioral fence and then making sure your own fence isn’t crossed. I think that’s a pretty sad view of ethics, and I also think it’s a huge part of the reason that people in America who are middle class and up tend to have a disgusting sense of entitlement. Why, I wonder, do poor people not have a right to eat? It seems like this would be a good one, an even more important one than the right to free speech; it also seems like it would be an essential part of the right to "life." But free speech was what was important to the slave owning aristocrats who conjured this nonsense up in the first place.
OK, but by your definition that doesn’t really matter. They can change the law, and then decide to ban guns, and your definition of rights means they have the right to do so. I’m not saying I have a problem with this definition exactly, it’s just not what most people mean when they say rights. The whole concept exists as a piece of moral jargon precisely as a counter against the idea that whatever a person can do is justified by their ability to do it.
I’d put a serious wager on the vast majority of firearm owners and users having never used a firearm to cause any injury or any death with a firearm, to a human or otherwise. It’s a sport for many people, and there are many, many other things that exist for no other purpose than people enjoy them. I don’t see any issue with this.
Firearms are also used to hunt, and much of what is hunted is eaten. A decent subset of this is fairly necessary as well. There are people who depend on the meat they hunt to a notable degree.
Yes, some times other humans are harmed or killed by firearms. However, most of the time this is to prevent a crime, or in self defense.
Only a tiny minority of firearm related uses result in the unlawful death or injury of a person.
I’ll acknowledge sport, that is a use of guns that doesn’t involve hurting or killing. Hunting doesn’t count, since you are killing animals. If you are doing so for meat, OK, it’s not expressly for the sake of killing the animal, but that is still the purpose of the gun. Hunting can be accomplished without guns though, and I don’t see any reason why a person who can do it with a gun couldn’t do it with a bow. This is not to say I think there’s a moral difference. I don’t really care if people have guns just to hunt. But I don’t think it’s a good argument against gun control. "A few people use them to do obtain food that they could probably obtain with something else" doesn’t seem to me like a very compelling reason to ignore violent crime.
Only slightly more than half of murders in the US are committed with firearms. There are dozens of countries whose total murder rate is lower than the non-firearm murder rate in the US.
US is #8 in the world in murders with firearms and #25 in murders overall. This says that people tend to prefer guns, but the statistics overall say that if someone is out to kill you, lack of one isn’t that big of a deal.
I agree, if someone is really out to kill you they can probably find a way without a gun. It’s a lot easier with a gun, though. I don’t think the statistics actually say what you’re saying they say. You’re not factoring in all the other issues that would affect a country’s overall murder rate. The US could be #80 in the world in murders overall, but there still would be a small portion of murders that wouldn’t happen without guns and I still see no compelling reason why people need to have them. Throwing around percentages doesn’t change this.
I am not entirely unfamiliar with CNC machines and CAD (I also have all the time in the world to learn more). All I would need to mill some guns is some easily pirateable software, publicly available specifications, steel, and the milling machines (expensive, but I could afford one, especially if it was used). The only components of a firearm I could not make this way would be very long barrels (not an issue if trying to make concealable weapons) and springs (which are cheap and easily available).
I’m not doubting that you can do it. I’m suggesting that your basement gun making operation cannot produce guns in large numbers over a short period of time, so your business would not be all that lucrative. "On a small scale" perhaps you could, but arming a nation would take a large scale.
To grow an significant quantity of weed I would either need a decent bit of land to do it outside, or a big hydroponics setup and lots of extra insulation for my basement. Probably a bit cheaper than a decent milling machine, but not by much, and the footprint would be much larger.
An individual firearm would cost more than a modest quantity of weed, but I wouldn’t have to sell very many to bring in the the same kind of profit.
I don’t think that’s true. You can make a lot of money if you have a quality grow op in a sizable basement. BC grow ops can make in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year vicinity. I can’t fathom that you’d ever approach the same level of profitability manually producing guns.
I don’t think it would get that much harder. There are huge numbers in circulation, and by the time these were confiscated, smuggling and small-time producers would make up for much of the loss. Law enforcement and military personnel would also still need to be equipped, and increasingly more of these supplies would be "lost" or "stolen" as their values increased.
So no, it would not get easier, but it wouldn’t get much harder, just more expensive. It wouldn’t stop shit, and would be a huge boon for organized crime, just like prohibition was, and the war on drugs is.
For one thing, "more expensive" does make it harder. For another, I don’t think it makes any sense to apply the history of alcohol and drug prohibition to the prohibition of absolutely everything. The amount of people who want a gun enough to get it illegally can’t really be compared in any way to the amount of people who want alcohol and drugs enough to get them illegally. In order to get these kinds of problems you have be talking about something with a level of demand so high that the majority of people want it, and something that can easily be produced in large quantities by lots and lots of people. I find it really hard to believe guns could ever fit this criteria.
I said for a justified organized society.
They are a rather recent fabrication, and there’s no reason whatsoever that anybody needs to claim you have a right to something in order to make laws protecting it.
again, the difference between what’s required for a society to exist versus what’s required for the laws a society imposes to be morally justified/justifiable.
i would argue that although "rights" are a rather recent notion (and i certainly agree that this is the case), they’ve been there implicitly the entire time.
to say that it is wrong to kill is another way of saying that someone else has a right to life.
For example if we want people to be allowed to own guns, we don’t need to claim, with no basis in reality, that they "have a right" to do so. We just need to say "under these circumstances it is legal to own a firearm." If we want to say people have a right not to be unjustly attacked, we can say what we really mean and just make a law that says you can’t assault people. This is in effect what we do, but people are still hell bent on clinging to this idea that they have a "right" towards something, and even that they have a "right" towards not something.
it unfortunately gets very confusing very fast because there’s a difference between "you have a right under these established laws" and "you have a natural, inalienable right that can never be taken from you."
oftentimes when people are saying you have a legal right they also mean you have the natural, "godgiven" (for lack of a better term) equivalent.
for what it’s worth, i think it’s fairly clear that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is clearly meant in the latter category, not the former, because they are explicitly defined as inalienable rights. i do not think it was intended to be the case for say, the right to bear arms. or the right of free speech or whatever else.
Why do we have a natural inalienable right to life and liberty? Where did it come from? Do we have it because God gave it to us? Do we have it because Thomas Jefferson said so? Because John Locke said so? (He said it was because God gave it to us so I guess that would ultimately be the same as #1.) I don’t see justification for any of these sources as originators of rights.
why is it wrong to kill? who made it wrong, where did the wrongness of it come from?
… i always thought locke was more of the opinion that our rights were something that could be conceived of and understood by reason alone, without an appeal to divine law. i could totally be off here.
It is a poor way of talking about moral responsibilities in my opinion because it suggests two things: 1) That people can reasonably have a sense of entitlement about things and they don’t need to explain it, they just "have a right," and 2) that the only reason we need to respect other people is because they have "rights" and we have to avoid those things, so good behavior is avoiding an intangible behavioral fence and then making sure your own fence isn’t crossed. I think that’s a pretty sad view of ethics, and I also think it’s a huge part of the reason that people in America who are middle class and up tend to have a disgusting sense of entitlement. Why, I wonder, do poor people not have a right to eat? It seems like this would be a good one, an even more important one than the right to free speech; it also seems like it would be an essential part of the right to "life." But free speech was what was important to the slave owning aristocrats who conjured this nonsense up in the first place.
hopefully my clarification of what i mean by rights (ie, that is implicitly implied by morality in the first place) might clear up some of the issues you’re bringing up here.
What’s the difference? Not trying to be snarky at all, I’m honestly not sure what you mean.
again, the difference between what’s required for a society to exist versus what’s required for the laws a society imposes to be morally justified/justifiable.
i would argue that although "rights" are a rather recent notion (and i certainly agree that this is the case), they’ve been there implicitly the entire time.
to say that it is wrong to kill is another way of saying that someone else has a right to life.
it unfortunately gets very confusing very fast because there’s a difference between "you have a right under these established laws" and "you have a natural, inalienable right that can never be taken from you."
oftentimes when people are saying you have a legal right they also mean you have the natural, "godgiven" (for lack of a better term) equivalent.
"It’s wrong to kill" isn’t the same as "everyone has a right to life." In one case, it’s wrong because the victim has something, a protective right. In the other, it’s wrong because the killer has something, a moral obligation not to kill people. There’s a very big difference between the two.
True moral goodness isn’t wanting to murder someone but refraining from it. That is a start, and it’s one that everybody has to start with, but at the bottom line that is just refraining from doing something because external influences convince you not to. Remove all negative consequences and it will happen. True moral goodness is not wanting to murder that person in the first place. But under the rights theory that is impossible. If the only reason you shouldn’t commit murder is because people have an inalienable right to life, you have a huge mass of people who want to murder each other but don’t because there’s a moral fence out there that they’ll be punished if they cross.
Also, one of the basic logistical problems with rights is that they’re impossible to justify on any level beyond their being a convenient way to tell people not to do stuff. First off, the "right" obviously isn’t very powerflul beyond semantics. People are able to kill each other, so the inalienable right is kind of alienable after all. I think a lot of people would tell me at this point that you can violate a person’s right, you just can’t take it away, but there is no practical difference between violating or taking away a person’s right to life when you kill them.
But if I let that slide and say ok, it’s just a violation of someone’s right, then what about how plate tectonics violates this right when it kills people with earthquakes. That obviously doesn’t make much sense since the earthquake had no intention behind it, so you have to amend your definition to say that rights only apply to the intentions of other beings. Then you have to specify that if someone is killed by an angry animal it’s not a violation of rights, because there’s no comprehensible way to suggest animals are violating your right if they kill you. (I mean, I guess you could, but it sure doesn’t bother the animals! They will violate your rights all day.)
You pretty much end up with something entirely superfluous in this situation. Rights just become pretend moral barriers that implicitly involve an obligation on the part of other people to behave in a certain way. But then they wind up sending the message, "You have to behave this way because otherwise, you violated someone’s inalienable right, which was put there by ____________, and we will punish you on ___________’s behalf (if we catch you)." Whereas the message should be, "You should behave this way because that is the proper way to conduct yourself as a human being according to your place as part of a prosperous society."
for what it’s worth, i think it’s fairly clear that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is clearly meant in the latter category, not the former, because they are explicitly defined as inalienable rights. i do not think it was intended to be the case for say, the right to bear arms. or the right of free speech or whatever else.
How do you differentiate between the two?
why is it wrong to kill? who made it wrong, where did the wrongness of it come from?
Do you want my opinion, or simply lists of possible explanations? It all depends entirely on your worldview, but not a single worldview justifies or necessitates belief in rights for its justification of morality. If you believe in God: God never tells anyone they have to behave a certain way because others have rights, in any religion that I am aware of. God says, "Do this, because it is the right way to behave." If you are an atheist, you could be a Kantian or a utilitarian perhaps, or a virtue theorist (which is the right one to be) and none of these things involve or explain rights. You might also believe morality is purely an instinctive evolutionary development with no justification beyond that, which also doesn’t involve or explain rights. If you’re a nihilist, well… yeah, you’re a nihilist.
… i always thought locke was more of the opinion that our rights were something that could be conceived of and understood by reason alone, without an appeal to divine law. i could totally be off here.
Most, if not all the enlightenment philosophers who came after him believed this (because most of them were much dumber than him, in my opinion) but he made it clear that the ultimate source of morality in his mind was God and God alone. This actually gets glossed over pretty heavily, according to my main philosophy professor when I was in college, because modern philosophy is overwhelmingly atheistic and most of the professors teaching it just ignore the Christianity-oriented parts of his work.
Please don’t tell people what the "right" thing to think is. You come across sounding like a pompous ass.
But to add on to what you were saying, you could also go straight to Nietzsche and say that we have to get out of the entirely Christian framework that has pervaded modern philosophy (enlightenment thinkers and beyond) and rethink our moral perspective because God is dead (or so he says). His problem with equal rights, as I can best interpret him, is that it makes everybody too equal: the talented and the talentless, the creative and the unimaginative, the idiots and the geniuses. His was convinced that egalitarianism was created by a slaves who desired to be treated equal to their oppressors, even though their disabilities dictated that, naturally, they deserved no such right.
I can’t believe that guy is trying to limit guns to just police. That means when a robber breaks into your house with an illegal gun, you might as well empty your bank accounts and give him your wife immediately. Send him off with a nice gift basket and the deed to your house as well. Go back to sleep thinking, well, those gun laws sure where a good idia! The world is a much better place now!
Burglary isn’t a capital crime, murder is. Does someone who takes something from you deserve to die?
They basically already have it like that…
more guns yet less crime: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=5857
Burglary isn’t a capital crime, murder is. Does someone who takes something from you deserve to die?
Murder is killing someone for a petty, illogical reason.
Criminals pretty much never change, so killing one is "taking out the trash", not murder.
You took it more seriously than it was intended to be.
And anyway I think it’s OK for me to state what my opinions are without disclaimers saying "this is only my opinion" when it’s pretty clear that it’s just my opinion anyway. Sarah and I are friends and she knows I am not telling her what to think.
You could say that, but (speaking as a Nietzsche fan) it is a pretty bloody silly perspective.
I do think that rights-based morality is ultimately probably unjustifiable but rights are a pretty useful shorthand for trying to get people to behave so they’re pragmatically valuable. I know that’s a poor argument for accepting them (in fact it’s exactly the same as the awful argument that you should believe in God just to have a moral arbiter) but there you go.
Also:
Murder is killing someone for a petty, illogical reason.
Criminals pretty much never change, so killing one is "taking out the trash", not murder.
Neither of these statements are true. I’d argue the point but I really can’t be arsed, just thought I’d let you know.
The same factors that make it easier to kill a person with a gun make it easier to put food on the table through hunting with a gun.
Hell, at the ranges most game is take vs. the ranges of most firearm homicides, a bow or crossbow would be more effective as a murder weapon than a hunting weapon.
I don’t think there needs to be an argument against gun control. In my view, it’s the control, not the freedom from it, that must be justified, and there is no logical or conclusive justification for gun control.
I agree, if someone is really out to kill you they can probably find a way without a gun. It’s a lot easier with a gun, though. I don’t think the statistics actually say what you’re saying they say. You’re not factoring in all the other issues that would affect a country’s overall murder rate. The US could be #80 in the world in murders overall, but there still would be a small portion of murders that wouldn’t happen without guns and I still see no compelling reason why people need to have them. Throwing around percentages doesn’t change this.
I see no compelling reason why people need to have fast food, or alcohol, or cigarettes, and these things kill thousands of times as many people as firearms.
However, it’s not my place to ban or restrict such things. If I’m run over by some drunk, it won’t be the alcohol’s fault.
Regardless, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that civilian gun ownership is more a preventative and a deterrent to crime, including murder, than otherwise.
"On a small scale" perhaps you could, but arming a nation would take a large scale.
I wouldn’t be trying to arm a nation.
I don’t think that’s true. You can make a lot of money if you have a quality grow op in a sizable basement. BC grow ops can make in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year vicinity. I can’t fathom that you’d ever approach the same level of profitability manually producing guns.
Possibly.
The only thing I’d be doing manually is sweeping metal shavings out from under the CNC machine, reloading it, putting the final polish on a few components, then assembling them. The rest would be pretty automatic.
For one thing, "more expensive" does make it harder.
Yes, to a degree. I think the potentially increased cost would be offset by other factors though.
For another, I don’t think it makes any sense to apply the history of alcohol and drug prohibition to the prohibition of absolutely everything. The amount of people who want a gun enough to get it illegally can’t really be compared in any way to the amount of people who want alcohol and drugs enough to get them illegally. In order to get these kinds of problems you have be talking about something with a level of demand so high that the majority of people want it, and something that can easily be produced in large quantities by lots and lots of people. I find it really hard to believe guns could ever fit this criteria.
There are almost 300 million guns in this country. Half of US households have at least one. The number of gun owners is quite possibly greater than the number of those who regularly consume alcohol, and is almost certainly greater than the number of people who use illicit drugs.
I don’t think comparing an absolute ban on gun ownership, to prohibition is out of line. Millions of people own them, have invested considerable sums in them, and do not think they should be limited in how they use them as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. Try to confiscate them all, or put overly draconian limitations on them, and people are going to refuse, ignore them, or push back.
They do for breaking and entering my damned house! They are going to get a heroic ass whooping for trying to steal from me, then several bullets to the stomach for stalking in my domain. I’ll then call the police, and tell them to bring an ambulance.
Haha heroic ass whooping how about a villainous trouncing.
good job macho man, but justice doesn’t mean killing anyone who wrongs you.
Sheeze, honestly, am I the only American here? You guys has target sighns all overs your heads. Deeze guys be packin’ certified bitch stamps.
And I mean Non lethal as in I’d let the guy leave on a stretcher, alive, but definately in worse state than he came in…
I know how to get enough of a drop on somebody where I’m living right now, afterall.
A gun isn’t the only way to defend yourself!
Wait…. baseball bat?….. Do you not want to sully your good cricket bat? :p
…Well, I don’t own a baseball bat either, so I guess that’s out. 8D
I guess A Stab in the stomach with that umbrella should show that rascal what’s what, Egads!
I have some knives and sais! No swords anymore except for a little wooden practice one. 🙁
I have some knives and sais! No swords anymore except for a little wooden practice one. 🙁
Why not you? :p It seems like your threads get more respect than others 🙂
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202356.html
I’m takin’ a ride in mah roflcopter now!
Sheeze, honestly, am I the only American here? You guys has target sighns all overs your heads. Deeze guys be packin’ certified bitch stamps.
you’re an idiot.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202356.html
that was super awesome and cute.
BTW, I own several swords too. Greek swords, Japanese swords, cutlasses, daggers, etc etc. I live in Cali, so maybe it’s because when somebody breaks in your house here, they WILL kill you if they make contact.
They do for breaking and entering my damned house!
Yeah, that’ll hold up in court well. "Your honor, he deserved to die, he broke into my house. MY house!" "Oh, well since he broke into your house, obviously he needed to die."
Sheez, honestly, am I the only American here?
It’s people like you who convince other nations that "American" is synonymous with having the free license to kill anyone you want. Because of people like you, every other nation believes that "the US is a steaming pile of shit" so THANKS A FUCKING LOT.
Furthermore, it’s not a "misconception" if Americans really do feel the way that realsilverjunk does, that is, that no one has the right to live if they steal, plus whatever other nonsense that guy believes.
The truth hurts. Everytime people hear the truth, they get butthurt, defensive, and often resort to insults.
I know nobodys brought this up but it’s relevent to the overall conversation since it sounds far too hyprocritical and altogether ridiculous to even entertain the idea lethal force as a notion of Defence and then go on to claim that ‘God would endorse my actions!’, to be honest. Simply saying ‘God would say it’s okay’ does NOT mean anything more than you trying to hide behind an unconfirmable defence – And not even a very good one.
So I have to really ask this now given how religion is also still a part of the overall American Patriot mindset:
Do those commonly proclaimed so-called Christian moral values just disintegrate automatically when you get intruded?
I’m just curious.
Criminals are criminals. They deserve to be shot on sight if they’re trying to commit a crime. Period.
Do those commonly proclaimed so-called Christian moral values just disintegrate automatically when you get intruded?
I’m just curious.
I’m gonna get srs here for a second….
Actually, America is no longer the Christian nation it used to be. In the last 20-30 years there’s been more and more rules and regulations trying to keep things related to God from being mentioned or practiced in public. Every other religion seems to be fine to talk about though (except Muslim obviously). The Christian morals that used to define America have disintegrated years ago.
I’m atheist – my point is that a central justification of this is that there are many people in small town church-going communities who would use God as this validating force behind these actions. However, writing Criminals off as mere animals who deserve to be shot and killed for no reason other than you don’t believe anything can be done to change them {Which is entirely false, given that rehabilitation DOES work!} is probably an even worse abuse of intelligence.
Really, I can’t even decide which side is the more twisted with their reasoning at this point.
Honestly, there are some real fu**tards around here. Who have obviously never been robbed. I almost did, but I scared the lurker off. My next door neighbor got broken into, while she was taking a bath, ran outside, naked, and was screaming for help at our door. The guy was arrested, lucky for him I was just a wee lad. In AMERICA, it’s legal to blast someone that has trespassed IN YOUR HOME. I can’t understand your problem with that. Somebody breaks in, and not some unarmed gimp, I mean an armed and dangerous fiend, who will murder you on sight, to keep mouths shut. What do you do? Hide in a closet and hope he doesn’t find you? Cry for help? Honestly, things are real different outside of California. I’ve been all across America, and never met a person who wouldn’t defend themselves against an intruder. I guess some of you guys are some odd exception. I hope your plan to just walk up and call him an idiot works. I’m sure he’ll feel bad and sit down and smoke some ganj wit’ ya’.
Oh really? Does the Constitution say that? Does the Bill of Rights say "In America, it’s legal to shoot someone trespassing in your home"? Tell me what amendment states this. Honestly, don’t make up shit to justify your crackpot ideas.
And I mean a dangerous intruder.
Answer me this-What will you do when/if someone armed breaks into your house and starts breaking, urinating, and stealing all of your possessions?
But I thought he’s already been disabled? Whatever that means. Twist-ties around the wrists?
Anyway, we’ll see what you do when a gun is in your face.
Without proper training there’s really not much you should do with a gun to your face. Even with, you’re kind of limited in what kind of things you can do at that point.
OK, ok, guy comes into my house and invades my privacy and I’m bound to be upset, for sure. But you seem to be coming at this from a perspective of a ‘revenge fantasy’ or something. Which never works out the way you plan it in your head. I think you’re got a lot of emotions about the topic and that’s fine, it seems like the neighborhood you live in is harsher than most and home invasions happen a lot? But in the actual situation, acting on emotions alone may not be a good thing. In the situation you’re giving it is hard to discern between a ‘dangerous intruder’ and a guy who is really drunk and thinks he’s in the right house. It’s best to approach this with a clear head, which I understand is difficult with an intruder in your house.
I’m not against protecting yourself/family/things from people who want to do harm, but I think you’re working under the assumption that if someone enters your house without permission it is because they are willing to kill you and do weird things to your cat. This is not always the case and I am wondering if you think it is justified to blow the kneecaps off a really drunk guy because he could have been a gang member on meth who is looking for ears to rape.
If I found someone armed and stealing things in my house I imagine I would do the proper thing and call the police, who would be able to deal with him much better than I could. The only people who would ever kill in the process of robbery are in some way mentally unwell and even then it is fairly rare. But, of course, if you want to believe that every burglar (armed or not) is going to murder you if you so much as blink an eyelid then you are quite welcome to believe that. It’s not true, though.
Depending where in my home I encounter him, I will either kill him or beat the shit out of him. I don’t need guns to protect myself or the ones/things I care for. If he has a gun, he’d better hope he kills me before I get to him. I was never one to ask for help anyways so if cops show up, it’ll most likely be the neighbors or someone else in the house. But if someone else wants to join in on the fun, I’d be more than willing to let them help whether or not I need it.
Hah, screw that – people never learn that violent reactions aren’t always the best methods.
This thing you did, where you expressed reasonable uncertainty over how an unknown situation may turn out, is quite different than the power fantasies people are having in this thread, where thief = a walking target you are free to kill in any way you wish with no risk to yourself even though they are entering your home apparently armed with the same kind of weapon you’re planning to use against them, with the same murderous intent that you have.
realsilverjunk plans to stare down the shaft of a gun dirty Harry style before deftly incapacitating the intruder, carefully injuring them just enough so that they are no longer a threat until the police come but also not putting their life in serious jeopardy.
He should just drop the self defense pretense and devote more time to playing with his weapons while making kung fu noises. IIDX can join him as the no weapons badass.
I will have to put on my ronin outfit before defending my home but that doesn’t take long
I would never use a weapon on anybody though, not that I’m doing anything. And just for the record, while I haven’t had my house broken into (unless you count drunk guy walking in and I don’t) I have been held at gunpoint, and I just was really scared and gave the guy the stuff I had on me. I don’t think experiencing this kind of stuff would change that many people’s opinions, really.
Anyway, I’m not a hellbent kind of guy, but I have 10 years martial arts training, and seasoned in arms use. I know what to do in any domestic situation. If you find a drunk in your house, you should definitely arm yourself, and get him to leave. Of course call the police, hurt they take at least 10+ mins to get there, depending on the distance. I personally choose a handgun, and security devices.
I would never use a weapon on anybody though, not that I’m doing anything. And just for the record, while I haven’t had my house broken into (unless you count drunk guy walking in and I don’t) I have been held at gunpoint, and I just was really scared and gave the guy the stuff I had on me. I don’t think experiencing this kind of stuff would change that many people’s opinions, really.
Don’t let drunk people break in, kick them out, then call the police. Also, don’t be a victim. I would have never given anyone anything on me, because if he was going to kill you, he would have already. With training, you can disarm idle threatening and crooks. Basic training. Not using a weapon makes you a prime target, because your home is not secure. At least carry an aluminum bat.
Pacifist tactics are useless. I’ve seen people try to use them, and they just get mugged, robbed, and become known targets. You don’t have to kill anyone by just defending yourself aggressively.
I don’t own anything that I’d be willing to risk my life for. My life risking applies solely to people!
http://redstatepatriot.com/lester.JPG
Ft. Hood?
And the things I own I worked for. I’m not going to let somebody just break in and I cut my losses. Their little sad life is not worth me losing the hard of work I put in gaining things, or putting anyone I protect into danger.
When it comes right down to it, I’m against most firearm restriction/regulation on the principle that people (I) should not be punished for the actions of others and that everyone should be able to do as they please, as long as they don’t bring harm to others (me). The simple fact that one can use a firearm safely and responsibly, is all that is needed to validate their existence and use, in my view.
If through malice or incompetence someone harms another, blame them. Assigning any responsibility to the tool isn’t going to get anything done (that box can’t be shut), just goes to partially absolve who is really responsible.
The same idea applies to many other situations.
I’m sure at least some of you think alcohol is responsible for drunk driving, fire for arson, tsunamis for the deaths of people who flock to watch them come in, or scanty clothing for rape. Well, you’re idiots.
Couldn’t have put it better myself!!!
Agreed. Those things are a bitch to get off. The only real way to do it without ruining the toy is a dremel tool.
martial arts is a lost art. the two should never be combined.
I smell a MP Megs owner~
Disagreed. Martial arts can be a necessary follow up when one runs out of bullets. Pistol whipping being the utmost basic.
Disagreed. The Art of War says you can feed your own army for 10 years if you steal the food off your enemy. Save your own bullets, make everyone kill each other by doing awesome flips and arm twists and use them as human body shields.
When they run out of ammo, use yours.
When they run out of ammo, use yours.
Wait a tick………. you just said guns and martial arts shouldn’t be combined….. to which I disagreed to…. and you disagreed with my disagreement by agreeing with me me :eye: You mixed martial arts and guns in your example……….
What game are you trying to play here mister? :eye:
Word.
Thats what I did. Looks real enough to fool the cops as well as the villains.
Also allows you to hold unwanted ex boyfriends until the cops show up.
for something non lethal
paintball gun with marbles instead of paintballs.
The first three should be paintballs. The rest should be marbles.
They got three chances to get out.
-Clint Eastwood
-Clint Eastwood
For a guy who’s know to do some pretty good movies, he sure can’t do acting very well.
I’ve built up a massive amount of hate and rage over the years. I now believe there are two types of human, one more evolved than the other.
I hate humans.
Though my opinion on guns still stands. Hope you’re enjoying all the shootings you’re having over there americans.
you know some martial arts use weapons, bladed and blunt weapons most notably ? Like Wushu, Penchak Silat or Viet Vo Dao ?
Or bar room brawling too.
that’s such a 90’s thing to post.
:disgust:
So a bunch of kids got killed because an unstable guy had a gun.
Again..
Just because there are other ways of killing people does not mean you should give up and not try to stop these things happening.
Yes if you want to kill someone there are many things you can use besides a gun. BUT, a gun is the most cost effective, easy, simple, and effective way of doing so. Now you can not take just one of these things and argue against them, because this is overall.
Also with the majority of other ways to kill, you have a fighting chance. You have very little against a gun.
Yes the USA is flooded with guns, a ban is not realistic. But far FAR FARRRRR stricter gun laws are.
You may notice these shooting are not done by criminals. But every day people.
Rope should be illegal.
Cars should be illegal.
Knives should be illegal.
Sticks and stones should be illegal.
and name calling.
Rope should be illegal.
Cars should be illegal.
Knives should be illegal.
Sticks and stones should be illegal.
and name calling.
None of these things are meant solely for killing people.
All of these things have important uses bisides killing people.
Gun’s do not.
All of these things have important uses bisides killing people.
Gun’s do not.
Guns kill animals.
And empty cans.
And bottles.
And paper cut outs.
And flying discs…
And empty cans.
And bottles.
And paper cut outs.
And flying discs…
Well you’re clearly trolling.
———- Post added at 08:28 PM ———- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ———-
Gun control doesn’t keep guns away from the bad guys, they get their guns illegally anyway! All gun control does is keep guns away from the good guys, who now can’t defend themselves.
The people who do these shootings are not "the bad guys" They are normal everyday people, they are not criminals.
And in all these shootings, I’ve never ONCE heard that the day was saved by someone else with a gun. So much for that argument.
Do you know what happens when you get shot?
You don’t dodge the bullet like neo and pull out your gun to "defend" yourself. This is not a movie. These are not western show downs. There is NO defence. If someone pulls out a gun and shoots you it’s to late.
Yes you can imagine shooting someone who is shooting other people, but what if you miss? What if you hit someone else, what if someone else thinks you are the shooter and then shoots you? The police show up and see you with a gun, good luck..
Adding guns to a gun problem does not fix anything. This is real life, not a movie, not a video game, you won’t respawn and get to shoot the guy that just shot you.
Also, gun control does NOT take guns away from the "good guys" it makes it harder for the wrong people to get them. "Good guys" can still get guns. They simply need to prove they are not insane.
Did you know you can go to gun shows and get guns with ZERO background check.
You’re clearly overreacting.
———- Post added at 06:30 PM ———- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ———-
you won’t respawn and get to get the guy that just shot you.
No one said it was a game.
You need help. These are real lives.
———- Post added at 06:30 PM ———- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ———-
No one said it was a game.
You need help. These are real lives.
How am I over reacting?
No, he implied you can defend yourself from being shot. You can’t.
favorite quote: Want to prevent gun violence and reduce the number of horrific events like what happened today? Great. Go stop being strangers to each other. Everybody wants the same thing here.
she quotes an article a couple times, and the first quote of hers is fantastic.
———- Post added at 08:28 PM ———- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ———-
The people who do these shootings are not "the bad guys" They are normal everyday people, they are not criminals.
And in all these shootings, I’ve never ONCE heard that the day was saved by someone else with a gun. So much for that argument.
Do you know what happens when you get shot?
You don’t dodge the bullet like neo and pull out your gun to "defend" yourself. This is not a movie. These are not western show downs. There is NO defence. If someone pulls out a gun and shoots you it’s to late.
Yes you can imagine shooting someone who is shooting other people, but what if you miss? What if you hit someone else, what if someone else thinks you are the shooter and then shoots you? The police show up and see you with a gun, good luck..
Adding guns to a gun problem does not fix anything. This is real life, not a movie, not a video game, you won’t respawn and get to shoot the guy that just shot you.
Also, gun control does NOT take guns away from the "good guys" it makes it harder for the wrong people to get them. "Good guys" can still get guns. They simply need to prove they are not insane.
Did you know you can go to gun shows and get guns with ZERO background check.
You’re missing the point… I’m not talking specifically about school shootings or whatever. What I’m saying is, people who will do bad things with guns, will get them whether it’s legal or not. No matter how hard the government cracks down, they’ll always find a way. And as a "good person", having a gun doesn’t mean that you won’t get shot, but at least -if- you do see it coming you can do something. Plus if the other guy knows that the other person might have a gun as well, maybe he thinks twice about what he’s about to do. If we could magically keep guns out of the wrong hands that would be great, but obviously no such thing is possible.
Gun control does not take your guns away.
Responsible gun owners will not put their guns where others can find them. Or show them off to their children.
Here’s the kicker though. I am the **exact** person who should never be allowed within miles of a firearm. I am bi-polar, schitzo affected with borderline personality disorder. I hear and see things that are not there, but are very, very real to me. I also have a majrt impulse and temper problem. I am more or less "normal" thanks to meds. NONE of this will ever show in a background check. Due to patient privacy. But, due to bufget cuts, I have no case manager. It is a given I am all right and taking my meds. By the time anyone figured it out, it would be too late. Just saying. I can buy one, carry one, even carry concealed, and here in good ole Arizona, I can carry it concealed IN A BAR. But, I should NOT be allowed to. :/
Here’s the kicker though. I am the **exact** person who should never be allowed within miles of a firearm. I am bi-polar, schitzo affected with borderline personality disorder. I hear and see things that are not there, but are very, very real to me. I also have a majrt impulse and temper problem. I am more or less "normal" thanks to meds. NONE of this will ever show in a background check. Due to patient privacy. But, due to bufget cuts, I have no case manager. It is a given I am all right and taking my meds. By the time anyone figured it out, it would be too late. Just saying. I can buy one, carry one, even carry concealed, and here in good ole Arizona, I can carry it concealed IN A BAR. But, I should NOT be allowed to. :/
Proper gun laws would find that out about you. Medical history should be a requirement of them. These are the type of things that need to change.
———- Post added at 11:40 PM ———- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ———-
Don’t get me wrong. I despise guns. But, part of our constitution is the right for people to have them.That is never going to get changed. Any law to clamp down on that would likely require an amendment, and that won’t happen. Any law passed will face judicial challenges and take years to implement, if it ever is. Gun ownership is just part of American life.
If you want the power to kill someone, you should give up your medical privacy. After all, you have nothing to hide right?
Not directed at you, just a comment.
Responsible gun owners will not put their guns where others can find them. Or show them off to their children.
The "responsible gun owners" aren’t the problem. The problem is the -irresponsible- ones. Psychological tests are all well and good, but that only stops irresponsible people from owning guns legally. How does that stop someone from owning an -illegal- firearm? In theory it sounds good, but in the end it won’t accomplish anything.
———- Post added at 11:39 AM ———- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ———-
The constitution is a living document. To say otherwise is to be no better than a religion and it will be the downfall of america.
Okay,
#1. The constitution says that we have GOD given rights… God…aka religion. Not that anyone actually believes in that part of the constitution anymore, but you’re contradicting yourself.
#2. Religion is being oppressed in america already (Catholic hospitals being shut down because they won’t offer abortion facilities is just 1 example). America is already heading towards destruction thanks to the past few presidents (including the current one) and religion has nothing to do with that.
———- Post added at 11:39 AM ———- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ———-
Okay,
#1. The constitution says that we have GOD given rights… God…aka religion. Not that anyone actually believes in that part of the constitution anymore, but you’re contradicting yourself.
#2. Religion is being oppressed in america already (Catholic hospitals being shut down because they won’t offer abortion facilities is just 1 example). America is already heading towards destruction thanks to the past few presidents (including the current one) and religion has nothing to do with that.
It makes it harder for them to get guns. Do I really need to explain that.
The constitution does not say that. That is a miss quote from the declaration of independence.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
And you are not understanding what I have said. Religion is based on a book that is a dead book, AKA you can’t make changes to it. It can not adapt to different times.
The constitution can have amendments made to it, changing with the times, giving new rights etc.
You are right that it makes it harder to get guns (for everyone though) but let’s say someone takes the test and fails. They’ll just go and get a gun illegally. Maybe the person is a good person and doesn’t want to break the law so he doesn’t go get a gun illegally, but if that’s the case, why didn’t he pass the test? It won’t work. The people who pass the test are the people who will use a gun responsibly, and the people who don’t pass are the ones who’ll go break the law and get one anyway…
You are right that the constitution can change to meet the needs of the current time. Which is good. This doesn’t necessarily mean that creating more gun laws will help though. Good gun laws would help though. How about something like (and this is just 1 example) "if you’re shot by a homeowner while breaking into his house you may not sue them." (I could have worded that better, but I think you get the point). Wow, now suddenly homeowners don’t need to be afraid of defending themselves. But by regulating guns, it goes the other way, and the homeowner is more likely to either have been shot, or sued, or both. He gets in trouble, and he’s not he one who originally broke the law!
And I don’t want to make this an argument about religion, but I’ll just throw it out there that religion is what it is -because- it doesn’t change. It’s tradition, and the laws of how to treat life in general, not specifically. The 6th commandment isn’t "Though shalt now kill, unless someone else is trying to kill you, or someone else, or (etc…). No, it’s just "Though shalt not kill". And it’s perfectly obvious that if someone is wrongfully threatening you you have a right to defend yourself.
#2. Religion is being oppressed in america already (Catholic hospitals being shut down because they won’t offer abortion facilities is just 1 example). America is already heading towards destruction thanks to the past few presidents (including the current one) and religion has nothing to do with that.
1) Bullshit.
Most of the Founding Fathers were DEISTS, not part of organized religion, and the term ‘Creator’ /=/ ‘god’ or at least a specific religion in the Enlightenment scene.
2) Bullshit.
‘Not always getting your way’ and ‘being oppressed’ are two different things.
Not being allowed to burn witches or mutilate a young girl’s vagina is NOT religion oppression.
2a) NAME ONE.
No, please, name ONE hospital that was shut down because they wouldn’t allow abortions.
2b) Tinfoil bullshit.
America isn’t ‘headed for destruction’ now anymore then it was back in the last big depression.
2c) Religious Retardation.
Oppression of women’s & GBLT rights, attacks on education/science, terrorism, and driving kids into a lake…
THAT’S religion for you.
– the bible is not a dead book. matter of fact, it has been modified so many fucking time that more or less a good 90% of it is not the original text. hell, for all intent, the bible (which essentially the same for Catholics and protestants) was put together around the 6th century, so a good 600 years after the apostle had been dead.
– Religion does change: that’s why the catholics have councils to decide on the dogma’s evolution and eventual modifications. last one for the catholics was in the 1960s.
You are right that it makes it harder to get guns (for everyone though) but let’s say someone takes the test and fails. They’ll just go and get a gun illegally. Maybe the person is a good person and doesn’t want to break the law so he doesn’t go get a gun illegally, but if that’s the case, why didn’t he pass the test? It won’t work. The people who pass the test are the people who will use a gun responsibly, and the people who don’t pass are the ones who’ll go break the law and get one anyway…
This argument is stupid on so many levels it’s hard for me not to laugh.
1) just because you pass a test doesn’t mean you won’t put the weapon to use in a bad way.
2) in the event of such a test, one can doctor his behaviour to have it match the criteria for passing it.
3) (and I’m going to get flamed for this): The retard who shot 21 children with guns owned by his mother, who was an NRA member, supposedly well educated on their use, etc, etc, had been taught how to handle guns, in other words, he had been taught what NOT to do with a gun and what the guns were supposed to be used for.
also, for "defending" one house, did these idiots really need a semi auto assault rifle, a shotgun, a repeating rifle, a .30 enfield rifle, a .22 marlin rifle, and 2 9mm pistols ??
what are your burglars equiped with in america ? M60s ? M4 with underbarrels grenade launchers ? out of all these, only three were useful as "home defense" equipment: the 2 pistols and the .22 rifle. the rest is at best impractical, at worst the bullet will go right through your wall and kill the neighbour or a passer-by.
Rope should be illegal.
Cars should be illegal.
Knives should be illegal.
Sticks and stones should be illegal.
and name calling.
This is by far the most retarded thing I’ve ever seen you post. You can’t be serious.
———- Post added at 08:40 AM ———- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ———-
2c) Religious Retardation.
Oppression of women’s & GBLT rights, attacks on education/science, terrorism, and driving kids into a lake…
THAT’S religion for you.
no it isn’t, and way to undermine your entire point by being just as much of a bigot as the people you’re claiming to argue against.
1. What does that have to do with what I just said? I don’t see how it’s relevant to my point. I never said that their beliefs were good/not good.
2. How can you compare "burning witches" to "killing babies" (aka abortion)? Again, how is this relevant to what I actually said?
2a. Catholic hospitals closing because of Obamacare. Sr. Keehan tries to hide the story | Fr. Z’s Blog – What Does The Prayer Really Say? (http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/10/catholic-hospitals-closing-because-of-obamacare-sr-keehan-tries-to-hide-the-story/)
Coming Soon: No More Catholic Hospitals and Free Abortion-Inducing Drugs | Daily News | NCRegister.com (http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/coming-soon-no-more-catholic-hospitals-and-free-abortion-inducing-drugs)
Obama’s Healthcare Rules Will Shut Down Catholic Hospitals Nationwide – Conservative Crusader (http://www.conservativecrusader.com/articles/obama-s-healthcare-rules-will-shut-down-catholic-hospitals-nationwide)
So much for freedom of religion. I can understand that you -can’t- justify a crime by saying that your religion requires it, but what harm is there in not aborting babies???
2b. Not headed for destruction? Have you heard of the national debt? ??? 27 Things That Every American Should Know About The National Debt Alex Jones’ Infowars: There’s a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/27-things-that-every-american-should-know-about-the-national-debt/)
2c. Again, why are you mentioning theses things? How do they relate to the point I’m trying to make? You don’t like my point of view, so you proclaim it "bullshit" and throw out a bunch of evil actions and claim that it represents religion as a whole. Sure, some religions required human sacrifice, but how can you throw that at every religion? No one wants to mention that the main reason the Spanish (who were mostly catholics) attacked the Aztecs. It was because the aztecs were sacrificing -hundreds- if not -thousands- of people to their gods. Some of the Spanish got greedy and went after the gold, but again, you can’t generalize all people by the actions of a few. Another misconception is the Galileo affair. He was told he could teach his ideas as a theory, but until he had proof he couldn’t teach them as "fact". He refused to listen, and so got into a heap of trouble…
I’m surprised that you find it "stupid" because you agree with me for the most part.
1. Agreed, yet another reason why the test wouldn’t work
2. I agree again
3. I don’t really know any of what you’re saying for a fact, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s true. Another reason why a test can’t determine who is mentally able to responsibly use a gun.
Did I say anything about assault weapons? or grenades???? Where is this coming from? I said that we have the right to use a gun to defend ourselves!!!!!! Why are we talking about about GRENADE LAUNCHERS????????
You’ve never cracked open a history book, have you?
No decent person would EVER join a group with the horrid history that most religions have, if they were anything other than a religion.
The KKK WISHES they could be as horrific as most of the major religions.
It’s not so much the bible that change as the interpretation of it and the dogmas that go within. last big change for catholics was around 1962. and the last change to the bible itself was a correction made to the beatitudes translation, made around 2000.
Okay, it is my -opinion- that it wouldn’t work. But also, you said that it was a good idea, but didn’t give any insight into why, or how. I assumed that it was your -opinion- that it would work (if you had proof I assumed that you would have put that in your original post about the idea). I personally disagree and have a different opinion.
So now, what do you say these tests would include? What are your reasons that it would work? Are you an expert on psychiatry?
1. What does that have to do with what I just said? I don’t see how it’s relevant to my point. I never said that their beliefs were good/not good.
2. How can you compare "burning witches" to "killing babies" (aka abortion)? Again, how is this relevant to what I actually said?
2a. Catholic hospitals closing because of Obamacare. Sr. Keehan tries to hide the story | Fr. Z’s Blog – What Does The Prayer Really Say? (http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/10/catholic-hospitals-closing-because-of-obamacare-sr-keehan-tries-to-hide-the-story/)
Coming Soon: No More Catholic Hospitals and Free Abortion-Inducing Drugs | Daily News | NCRegister.com (http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/coming-soon-no-more-catholic-hospitals-and-free-abortion-inducing-drugs)
Obama’s Healthcare Rules Will Shut Down Catholic Hospitals Nationwide – Conservative Crusader (http://www.conservativecrusader.com/articles/obama-s-healthcare-rules-will-shut-down-catholic-hospitals-nationwide)
So much for freedom of religion. I can understand that you -can’t- justify a crime by saying that your religion requires it, but what harm is there in not aborting babies???
2b. Not headed for destruction? Have you heard of the national debt? ??? 27 Things That Every American Should Know About The National Debt Alex Jones’ Infowars: There’s a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/27-things-that-every-american-should-know-about-the-national-debt/)
2c. Again, why are you mentioning theses things? How do they relate to the point I’m trying to make? You don’t like my point of view, so you proclaim it "bullshit" and throw out a bunch of evil actions and claim that it represents religion as a whole. Sure, some religions required human sacrifice, but how can you throw that at every religion? No one wants to mention that the main reason the Spanish (who were mostly catholics) attacked the Aztecs. It was because the aztecs were sacrificing -hundreds- if not -thousands- of people to their gods. Some of the Spanish got greedy and went after the gold, but again, you can’t generalize all people by the actions of a few. Another misconception is the Galileo affair. He was told he could teach his ideas as a theory, but until he had proof he couldn’t teach them as "fact". He refused to listen, and so got into a heap of trouble…
1) Because it erodes most of your post. 😀
2) Well, one’s a human being and another is a lump of cells till some time after…you’re also the one that brought up RELIGION.
2a/b) Um…mind posting some decent sources?
Sites that AREN’T, mostly, run by tin-foil hat wearing nutters?
2c) It has to do with RELIGION doing the TRUE oppression.
The Spanish attacked the Aztecs because they wanted to spread GOD and get GOLD.
-Trying to rewrite history doesn’t make it so.
The Spanish Inquisition made the Aztecs killing of people look like a bully tossing rocks at babies.
At least most of the people sacrificed by the Aztecs were killed rather quickly, unlike the SI where they tortured them for days, or weeks, or months, or even years.
O, bullshit…what is with this rewriting of history?
Galileo was fucked over by a bunch of cross dressing assholes who did things like HANG someone for translating the bible outside of Latin and then a decade later, exhume the bodies to burn just to show that they could.
———- Post added at 04:30 PM ———- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ———-
It’s not so much the bible that change as the interpretation of it and the dogmas that go within. last big change for catholics was around 1962. and the last change to the bible itself was a correction made to the beatitudes translation, made around 2000.
First Council of Nicaea – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea)
There’s a fun one.
I’m surprised that you find it "stupid" because you agree with me for the most part.
1. Agreed, yet another reason why the test wouldn’t work
2. I agree again
3. I don’t really know any of what you’re saying for a fact, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s true. Another reason why a test can’t determine who is mentally able to responsibly use a gun.
Did I say anything about assault weapons? or grenades???? Where is this coming from? I said that we have the right to use a gun to defend ourselves!!!!!! Why are we talking about about GRENADE LAUNCHERS????????
The people who pass the test are the people who will use a gun responsibly, and the people who don’t pass are the ones who’ll go break the law and get one anyway…
In other words, people willing to take a test are good gun users, and the others are bad. do you see how ludicrous this is ?
that’s what I should have quoted, instead of the whole paragraph. the idea that, just because someone is able to pass the test will behave responsibly with a gun is silly, at best. Test result can be doctored.
I involved assault weapons for a simple reason: the retard that shot 21 children and 6 adults used his mother’s guns. guns that she owned, according to the constitution, to "protect her home". well, excuse me if I’m wrong, but a .223 assault rifle is not a home defense weapon. it’s military grade weaponry. And millions of americans own one similar.
So what the hell are burglars equiped with that you need military grade weaponry to scare them ? hence the grenade launcher remark.
hell, I knew a guy whose family owned weapons acquirred before the mass bans of the 80-90s. M60s, full-auto assault rifles, combat shotguns, full auto SMGs. and it was "to protect their places from burglars". and of course his family claimed they were perfectly able to handle a gun. well guess what: the expression "trigger discipline" was unknown to him, and even a guy who doesn’t own a gun like me knows what it means.
I’ll just stop here, I don’t feel like going into a flamewar on the subject of the stupidity of some american laws.
———- Post added at 11:43 PM ———- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ———-
First Council of Nicaea – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea)
There’s a fun one.
Funniest period of the Byzantine empire to study if you ask me. more than half a dozen of interpretation of the same texts, at the same time. all mixed with politics, intrigue and a good portion of backstabbing. So yeah. in theory most of the bible was written back then. then it got copied. and that’s where the clusterfuck started. it was handcopies, which means parts were changed, varying between copists. the text was mangled from copy to copy, and it became a mess. add the translation from aramaic to greek, then from greek to latin, then from latin to French, english and so on in the 16-17th century and you get another problem. as for the killings committed by the church, no conflict with me. the loss we experienced only in latin america is critical enough for me to be pissed off at the church. problem is, the bible didn’t tell them to kill. they were just a bunch of morons with delusions of power and a literal view of the bible. kinda like talibans today.
or republicans.
but the bible and mostly the way the church functionned evolved again. though thanks for correcting the dates. I’m always confusing Nicae and Constantinople 2 (which was a mostly useless council).
So now, what do you say these tests would include? What are your reasons that it would work? Are you an expert on psychiatry?
I’m not the one who would make these tests so it’s a waste of time for me to talk about them.
Since you insist on bringing this up I will pose a few facts, but I will *not* state my stance on the matter;
Fact: Oregon is an open carry state and has had one of the fewest gunshot murders in the world (Chile having the absolute fewest)
Fact: Europe has the least restrictions on alcohol in the world as well as the fewest alcohol related deaths in the world.
Fact: Florida has strict gun restrictions and has had some of the most severe incidents in the country (not the world)
Fact: Elsalvador has the highest amount of gun-related murders in the world in which almost none of the murders were licensed to carry. (weapons obtained illegally).
Fact: East Europe (3.9 million square miles in size) has a 6.9 murder rate which is almost twice as much as North America (9.3 million miles in size) with a rate of 3.9 – most of which taken place in Mexico.
Fact: Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
Fact: You cannot predict what person is a stupid person by licensure.
Fact: there are fewer murders in countries with fewer gun restriction – but all out civil war in countries with too few gun restriction
Fact: The US has one of the highest alcohol related deaths in the world, and one of the strictest restriction on alcohol.
Christmas is ruined.
:disgust:
2) Well, one’s a human being and another is a lump of cells till some time after…you’re also the one that brought up RELIGION.
2a/b) Um…mind posting some decent sources?
Sites that AREN’T, mostly, run by tin-foil hat wearing nutters?
2c) It has to do with RELIGION doing the TRUE oppression.
The Spanish attacked the Aztecs because they wanted to spread GOD and get GOLD.
-Trying to rewrite history doesn’t make it so.
The Spanish Inquisition made the Aztecs killing of people look like a bully tossing rocks at babies.
At least most of the people sacrificed by the Aztecs were killed rather quickly, unlike the SI where they tortured them for days, or weeks, or months, or even years.
O, bullshit…what is with this rewriting of history?
Galileo was fucked over by a bunch of cross dressing assholes who did things like HANG someone for translating the bible outside of Latin and then a decade later, exhume the bodies to burn just to show that they could.
———- Post added at 04:30 PM ———- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ———-
First Council of Nicaea – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea)
There’s a fun one.
1. How does it "erode" my post? You keep stating things without explaining yourself. I pointed out that our country was -supposedly- built on the principle that we were created by god. When we try to call religion bad, but the american government good, we are in fact either contradicting ourselves, or pointing out that the founding fathers were a bunch of hypocrites. Either answer if fine by me, because I believe both to be true. : )
2. Who says that the "lump of cells" isn’t alive? You? Doctors? Why do -we- get to determine at what point something "is alive"? How do we KNOW that we aren’t killing a living thing? Actually we do know that we’re killing a living human, because life can’t come from nothing. Life is created at the moment of conception. That’s why it is conception, because it CREATES LIFE. Are you telling me that the cells that create life are combined, and then just "hang out" for 6 months and THEN create the life form???
2a. No matter what source someone gives, they can’t really "prove" that it’s true, can they? You either believe it or not. But if you don’t believe what I sent, then does that mean that you don’t believe that Obama demands abortion facilities? In that case, find your own sources that you trust, and you can confirm it for yourself.
2b. Seriously, are you denying that we owe a giant sum of money to china? Everyone knows we’re in debt, not even Obama says otherwise…
2c. Do you deny that the Aztecs did human sacrifice? Because I’ve never heard of that being denied. You can also claim that that wasn’t the reason the Spanish conquered them, but you don’t have proof, because you weren’t there! I wasn’t there either, so I don’t have proof, but I’m not the one making accusations. Like I said though, some Spaniards got greedy and did horribly things, but by accusing religion as being the problem, you claim that if they hadn’t been religious, they wouldn’t have done the bad things.
Oh boy, here we go with the Spanish Inquisition… They didn’t torture people for weeks, or even days!!!!!! Nor did they go after other religions. They went after those who claimed to be catholic, and yet didn’t behave in a Catholic manner. I know you will refute any information I send via a link, but if you want to read up on it here you go Peeling Away Lies: The True History of the Spanish Inquisition ??? Conservative Colloquium (http://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/peeling-away-lies-the-true-history-of-the-spanish-inquisition/)
To look specifically at torture, go to right beneath the second video.
In my book, what you believe is the re-written history. I can’t prove it anymore that you can, but think about it this way… A lot of this "stuff" is written by Catholics, who witnessed these things personally. You don’t have to believe what they write, but how can you possibly have proof to that it’s false? No one else was there!
Treat the mentally ill. Give them access to the medication and counseling they need.
Get rid of the bullies.
Teach children respect for one another.
Then you have almost no more gun problems.
(note I did say almost)
We aren’t not one nation ‘under god’, this was added in during the McCarthy Era of ‘us vs ussr’ crap.
2) Is every ejaculation a life? Is every egg lost via a period a life?
-A virus is ‘alive’, should we stop using medication that kills it?
What gives YOU the right to tell a women what she can and can’t do with her body?
That she should go through the painful, and potentially deadly, process of having a baby…even if she’s been raped?
2a) No, but a trusted source is better then a glorified blog by some random nutter.
Glenn Beck is NOT a reliable source, just saying.
2b) Yeah, I know we are….your point?
That’s what happens when you have two+ wars on a credit card.
2c) Nope, where did I post that?
I do have THEIR records and, you know, those crazy things called HISTORY BOOKS.
No, but I do see it as this:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
O, yes, another BLOG…that’s a great source.
!
Life is simply a biological machine, it is no different from machines we make, just more complex.
A lump of cells is life, but it has no more consciousness than a rock. It reacts and adapts, but does not think or feel pain, fear etc. Our brain is exactly like a computer, what we call consciousness is the experience of our DEVELOPED brain running. Just like how software runs on a computer, but ofcourse a lot more complex.
Life does not start at conception, it’s already started long long ago, a sperm is alive, also an egg. But they are simple and only react in the way evolution has indirectly programmed them to. They do not experience what we do, they have no developed brain or nervous system in order to experience being alive.
"Killing" a "lump of cells" in the womb is no different from washing your hands. Literally. All you are doing is stopping the machine or braking the machine. You are not hurting anyone or anything. Life is not magical.
No decent person would EVER join a group with the horrid history that most religions have, if they were anything other than a religion.
The KKK WISHES they could be as horrific as most of the major religions.
I studied religion and philosophy in college. I think I am qualified to comment, thanks.
Your argument makes about as much sense as saying that no decent person would ever call themselves an American because of what the country has done to people in the past (and still does). The thing you are failing to understand is that these groups people belong to mean a lot more than just the title. Any way you can possibly think of to categorize human beings, from race to nationality to sexual orientation and yes to religion, has been at some point used as the banner for horrible violence. That doesn’t mean that the people who committed those acts represent everyone in the group, and if that’s your argument, you may as well jump in with those who argue things like "Well, I live around a bunch of black people, and they do x a lot, so black people all do x."
The fact remains that the vast majority of religious people have not and would not ever commit the acts you are talking about and find them just as despicable as you. Yes, I know there are vocal douchebags like those westboro baptist people who wind up in the media. You hear about them because they are loud and shocking. You don’t hear about all of the very kind and decent Christians, Muslims, Hindus and whatnot in your city/state/country every day because there is nothing sensational about them: they are everywhere and they are the norm. It’s when somebody does something really heinous in the name of religion that it’s shocking. It’s shocking because it’s rare.
Maybe YOU have had some bad experiences with religious people before. There are plenty of shitty people out there and a good number of them are religious because, let’s face it, most people are. Equating that shittiness with the religion instead of the person is exactly the same logical fallacy that racists use. So maybe you should watch who you go about comparing to the KKK. Or maybe you should read the gospels. Jesus has a lot of very useful advice for people like you. There’s a passage you may have heard about trying to get a speck out of your brother’s eye when there’s a plank in your own. Simple but powerful.
———- Post added at 08:19 PM ———- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ———-
Why do people feel compelled to bring this subject to ever forum in the world?
I’m sorry, I thought that the future of our country was something worth discussing.
By all means, go back to posting in enlightening threads like "what is your favorite FF and why?" or "what is the quick reply for"
Wow…Canada is in the top three… 🙁 So ashamed right now.
We are bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, 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Good try but you still haven’t one-upped your last post in stupid points.
your image is broke and when i try to open in a new tab, it tells me i need to log in.
…politics site…
:disgust:
———- Post added at 06:23 PM ———- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ———-
Good try but you still haven’t one-upped your last post in stupid points.
Which was? :erm: I can’t keep track for which one holds the highest record.
wait. was it about christmas or sticks and stones?
Source: 2nd Amendment Bearing Arms – U.S. Constitution – Findlaw (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/)
Source: 2nd Amendment Bearing Arms – U.S. Constitution – Findlaw (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/)
I think you overlook the word "Well-regulated".
oh, and the fact this was written around 250 years ago. in a period where people still put their single shot musket that took 2mn to reload between each shot to go hunt for food, and protect their home because, you know, no police forces or no regular army.
before quoting a document, study its context, and maybe you will avoid looking like an NRA tool.
oh, and the fact this was written around 250 years ago. in a period where people still put their single shot musket that took 2mn to reload between each shot to go hunt for food, and protect their home because, you know, no police forces or no regular army.
before quoting a document, study its context, and maybe you will avoid looking like an NRA tool.
As apposed to a tool for tyrants?
oh, and the fact this was written around 250 years ago. in a period where people still put their single shot musket that took 2mn to reload between each shot to go hunt for food, and protect their home because, you know, no police forces or no regular army.
before quoting a document, study its context, and maybe you will avoid looking like an NRA tool.
I think you didn’t even read the article, even after I posted the source. So I will spell it out for you.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state – meaning armies independent of established federal government.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms – meaning each individual (The people) has the right to keep and bear arms separate of state/federal government armories (I.E your house hold)
Shall not be infringed – Meaning the government will not pass laws to remove our arms, and shall not disarm us by force via martial law.
Take your own advice. Study its context, and yes its old. So for the sake of arguement, I suppose you feel the same way about your freedom of speech and freedom of religion. They are on the same document.
Source: 2nd Amendment Bearing Arms – U.S. Constitution – Findlaw (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/)
i care about the right to send my young boy to school without having to worry that some unstable tool has gotten an ak-47 from a gun show and might be waiting outside the school…
Your kid is more likely do due due to you being hit by drunk driver then being gunned down at school…just saying.
But more on topic, I would like to see the following actions.
1. All automatic and simi-automatic guns being removed from sporting goods stores, department stores, pawn shops, gun stores and gun shows. Also crackdowns on illegal arms sales.
2. Re-enforced panic rooms in all public schools and colleges.
3. A special unit of six men trained for special weapons and tactics in all public schools and colleges.
I don’t know man. It’s becoming more trendier to target schools these days.
Just yesterday there was a rocking horse rigged with explosives found outside an elementary school. same place as one was found back in 2010.
And on the same morning Connecticut school was attacked, a school in China was under a knife attack. over 20 kids slashed.
there was actually two days in a row of knife attacks.
granted a bullet to a child is more fatal than a knife.
but attacks on schools are increasing in popularity.
js.
———- Post added at 07:19 PM ———- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ———-
I once worked in at an all night gas station/convenience store in South Georgia on the graveyard shift. One night about 4:30 AM a guy came in to rob me! He was wearing a baseball cap, dark sun glassed, a rebel flag bandanna and garden gloves. He had his hand under his shirt so I did not see the weapon right away but since this was the first and only time I had ever been robbed in my live I was so scared I literally thought I was going to have a heart attack. The level of fear was off the charts and my heart felt like it was being slowly crushed. Knowing we didn’t have much in the register behind me I bagged up the cash but when I turned around to had it to him he snatched the bag out of my hand and said "now the other register mother fucker!!" and before I opened it I saw the weapon he was holding under his shirt…a very large fillet knife. As soon as I saw it my fear instantly melted away and was rapidly replaced with blinding rage. I grabbed the aluminum baseball bat only inches from my right hand and screamed "GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE BEFORE I BASH YOUR FUCKIN’ BRAINS IN" and he ran away like a little bitch. They caught him only minutes later…he made his getaway on a bicycle. :p
😯 That reminds me!
Up here in the Canadas, I worked a gas station once and we got robbed overnight at gun point.
there were a couple knife-point robberies too.
i only worked the morning shift, but i remember walking into work and seeing my coworker smoke his cigarette intensely. he was still shaken up by the gun.
Source: 2nd Amendment Bearing Arms – U.S. Constitution – Findlaw (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/)
Thomas Jefferson: "I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
Letter to Samuel Kercheval by Thomas Jefferson (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=459)
They made it possible to change the constitution for a reason.
At any rate you’re wrong that gun control is illegal. Banning guns altogether would require a change to the constitution, but it says absolutely nothing about controlling them.
———- Post added at 10:53 PM ———- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ———-
Your kid is more likely do due due to you being hit by drunk driver then being gunned down at school…just saying.
yeah, and if people want to get drunk and drive cars they are going to do so anyway, so we might as well not have laws to try to prevent it, right?
———- Post added at 10:57 PM ———- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ———-
Why do people feel compelled to bring this subject to ever forum in the world? I know I’m still green here and I’m sure my opinion is worth about as much to people here as an ice cube is to a volcano but I still wish to make known that I find it slightly on the asinine side to post political, religious, or otherwise controversial subjects on video game and anime websites..
Since you insist on bringing this up I will pose a few facts, but I will *not* state my stance on the matter;
Fact: Oregon is an open carry state and has had one of the fewest gunshot murders in the world (Chile having the absolute fewest)
Fact: Europe has the least restrictions on alcohol in the world as well as the fewest alcohol related deaths in the world.
Fact: Florida has strict gun restrictions and has had some of the most severe incidents in the country (not the world)
Fact: Elsalvador has the highest amount of gun-related murders in the world in which almost none of the murders were licensed to carry. (weapons obtained illegally).
Fact: East Europe (3.9 million square miles in size) has a 6.9 murder rate which is almost twice as much as North America (9.3 million miles in size) with a rate of 3.9 – most of which taken place in Mexico.
Fact: Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
Fact: You cannot predict what person is a stupid person by licensure.
Fact: there are fewer murders in countries with fewer gun restriction – but all out civil war in countries with too few gun restriction
Fact: The US has one of the highest alcohol related deaths in the world, and one of the strictest restriction on alcohol.
No, but banning booze isn’t on the table and FAR more people are killed via drunk drivers then shootings, schools or otherwise.
I’m just asking for some consistency.
I’m just asking for some consistency.
that’s a good point. a really good point.
Note:
I actually DON’T drink, so I wouldn’t CARE if booze was banned.
However, I DON’T support it because "Prohibition" has shown itself to be a complete failure and only seems to make criminals out of honest citizens.
Same goes for the ‘war on drugs’.
I don’t smoke weed or shoot(?) heroin but I don’t see how I have the right to tell other adults what they can and can’t do with THEIR body.
I’m just asking for some consistency.
Neither is banning guns. Not right now.
Stricter regulation is on the table.
i don’t think we need to go confiscating what people already own, but wqe seriously need to discontinue any further sale or production, and i guarantee there will be a difference made, however gradual
Basically all we will get is the old AWB.
———- Post added at 07:30 PM ———- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ———-
the problem isn’t that gun control doesn’t work, it’s that most of the laws in place have major loopholes that make said laws pointless. the code needs to be revised and improved, and it might actually work
———- Post added at 07:32 PM ———- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ———-
the old AWB.
it’s a start. it should neverhave been lifted. may not be perfect, but again, loopholes in such laws are the real problem
I can find that he stole the guns from his mother, but nothing on their storage.
There are almost no services for children who have special needs either. If you are lucky enuf to get school services you are in a good place school wise but what about home? Most parents don’t know how to help their own kids at home.
on another note,
Parents are being penalized for discipling their children. I sent my son to bed without dinner one time and got a visit from the police. He told his teacher he didn’t get dinner or breakfast and she called the cops on me. The police called childrens services and I was put under investigation. The police actually laughed because he just wouldn’t eat what I had prepared. My son wanted mcdonalds and wouldn’t have a home made meal. He was 7 at the time. I later received a letter from children’s services telling me their investigation was unfounded.
One year later he did the same thing. I put a bag with a change of clothes, toothbrush, hairbrush and shoes by the door and told him the next time the police came for something he said, he could go with them.
We can’t even choose how to discipline our children without someone screaming at us.
How are we supposed to teach our children right from wrong?
Blaming guns is about as pointless as blaming video games in my opinion.
But thats just my opinion.
But are they worth shooting someone over??
a group of armed robbers against 2 unarmed shoppers.
the neighbor who called it in had her own gun ready.
Shooting and crash linked to Air Jordan shoes (http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Cops-Shooting-crash-may-be-tied-to-Air-Jordans-4138291.php)
Laws against murder would prevent murder? Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws.
Laws against shitting on the sidewalk would prevent public defecation? Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws.
duuuuurrrrrrrr
Adam Lanza wasn’t a criminal.
neither was James Holmes.
The Columbine shooters had only commited one theft beforehand, and they had successfully attended a diversionary program. as for the Virginia Tech shooter, he didn’t have any criminal record, but had a long psychiatric history.
One last thing: all their weapons were acquired legally, with one exception being the Columbine shooters who had to ressort to a friend to purchase some of their weapons, and also benefitted of the rampant idiocy of a licensed arm dealer to acquire their Tech DC-9.
Before spouting memes out of your ass, make sure they’re right.
100 % Gun control is not so appropriate. I guess it will give rise to some sort of oppression. In response, people will react to this. Eventually this oppression bubble may burst and affect the overall-being of the society in general.
The balanced approach to this could be by implementing measures or some sort of tests done by sociologists and psychologists to determine who is physiologically ready to hold a gun and to use it appropriately. By surveys or something. I do not know exactly how. But there must be a scientific way.
Using my quote on the issue: "Give an insane human a gun and he will kill 20 , give a sane human a gun and he will protect the rest"
People who violate those laws are criminals. And yet they still exist. Some get caught. Jails are overflowing with the one that got caught. Many others didn’t. So what if they were not criminals before they violated the laws. They became so when they broke the laws. But the laws themselves do nothing for people who don’t follow them for whatever reason
Let me give another example.
Laws against downloading music in most countries prevent downloading music. Right? 😛
Gun laws like downloading laws (the most recent one is in Japan, promising jail time for sharing AND downloading) only spread oppression. So if you’re in Japan and you watch youtube, any police officer if they can access you computer can arrest and charge you. Which means just about any person. In Germany you must prove you didn’t share something if accused. Which is impossible.
And how are people supposed to protect themselves. A man broke into your home. With a gun. Or its two guys with knives. Or three strong guys with nothing. Or whatever government in power has gone fascist and arrived at your door demanding extortion.
What are you going to do call the police while you’re being murdered? How s that going to help you in the meantime? And they arrive later and then what You’re dead or seriously wounded. How are they going to help you? And what if your family is there with you.
How is a woman supposed to defend herself from a man larger than her?
Let be realistic
Gun laws are the equivalent of the moral judgment that everyone who get robbed should die and not be allowed to defend themselves so that a couple of lunatics who blow up periodically dont get guns and kill other people. They mean that some parts of the population must certainly die to prevent another part of the population from possibly dying by the hand of lunatics and which part of the population must certainly by sacrificed is to be determined by bureaucrats and bandits instead of allowing people to determine whether they live or die by themselves. This is a very evil statement
Can Stef do anything whatsoever so long as he, Stef, doesn’t harm anyone? The only moral question to that is: yes. What Francois does is Francois’s responsibility. If Francois does something harmful, that does not mean Stef will or did and that Stef can be punished or harmed because he CAN do it.
Also violent crimes are much higher than most countries represent. Police often write off murder and robbery as suicide if they do not believe they can easily get a conviction. That why some place have low rates of "violent crimes" and high rates of all sorts of other things.
If guns imply violent crimes, then shouldn’t gun ranges be the most dangerous places on earth. Are they ?
People need to respect each other n get along. That all. Every other solution is worse than the problem.
And the government cant decide whose sane or insane. Theyll just say whoever they dislike is insane like people who download music or people who voted for the guy who happened to lose in whatever was the last election. Everyone else is sane. They dont listen to scientists any more than they listen to them on most other issues where science says something that isnt popular The actual lunatics will get weapons, so will criminals and everyone else will be persecuted with exception of some privileged people
– giving EVERYBODY the option to possess assault weapons (whether people realize it or not, a Semi Auto assault rifle, at the end of the day, is still an assault rifle) is INSANE. that and I don’t see the word "defense" in "Assault rifle". I don’t have any problems with people possessing small caliber weapons (.22 carbines, .25 pistols) or hunting rifles. my problems is with idiots possessing military grade weapons because they need a weapon to defend their home. an assault weapon. see the paradox ?
– how is a woman supposed to defend herself from a man larger than her ? let’s see: Tasers, Pepper spray, Judo, etc. Non lethal weapons exist for a reason. At the extremity, a .25 caliber pistol.
– How am I going to defend myself from armed robbers ?
case 1: one thief with gun(s) : Any cop with half a brain will tell you "don’t even try". very good chances you get killed in the process (Unless you’re a remarkable marksman, and providing the thief doesn’t have any teammate), or that one of your loved one gets shot in the exchange, or that you kill a moron with airsoft guns. In which case YOU will be prosecuted for manslaughter.
Case 2: 2 men with knives: again: Taser, pepper spray, tear gas, a truncheon, hell, even a chemney poker or a baseball bat for all I care. or even better: a sturdy door and a mobile phone.
case 3: three men with no weapons: same as above, but as it happened to me years ago, i’ll just throw in the fire extinguisher. not only dry ice. also the damn fire extinguisher, used as a weapon.
Guns laws are not there to "Oppress" you. there here to prevent nutcases to possess enough weaponry to come in your working place (a school, a bank, a faculty, or god knows what) and arrange everybody in their way a meeting with their ancestors.
Personnally, I’m thinking that it’s a matter of weapon categories and especially calibers. You want to own a weapon for hunting: there are hunting rifles for that. most use .308, and most are bolt action rifles or side by side shotguns, or semi-auto low capacity shotguns. you want a weapon for self defense ? .22 caliber pistols and carbines, or .25 pistols. no need for bigger calibers who were developped for war. no for defense. not for protection. for war. hence the "Para Bellum" in "9mm Parabellum".
at the very least these should be banned, whether people like it or not: 9mm, .38, .40, .45, .44 mag, .50 AE, .223 REM/ 5.56mm NATO, 7.62*39mm, and of course .50 BMG.
Ad hominem s are not arguments but insults
Governments are not there to improve your welfare. That’s a common prejudice.
If something is not voluntary but costly then its theft. Government behavior is mostly not voluntary. People did not agree to pay for most things government does
But try not paying your taxes next time and see what happens and resist when they come to take your house afterwards
Try to refuse to accept worthless money in exchange for actual stuff See what happens The government will as you said "arrange everybody in their way a meeting with their ancestors" who resists their superior force. Just like criminals who rob you at gunpoint or with a knife. Thats how you know who they are
But force does not make productive. Force does not make just.
Verbal disagreement is sufficient to get you in jail in many places in the world
They are bandits which sit around one place more or less and wear nice uniforms, who steal from one group of people while preventing other bandits from stealing from them. The other bandits, who move around, thieves, robbers, and so on, don’t want tribute, they just kill whoever they rob on the spot. So they are worse but that does not make the first group any better
They grant privileges to one arbitrary group of people at the expense of other groups of people, and get support that way to have the superior concentration of force. Its called special interest
The cops are not there to defend you. They are there to arrest the person who has murdered you because the government outlawed murder by anyone except them. But that does not help you, who has been murdered by an intruder
"at the very least these should be banned, whether people like it or not"
Welfare is happiness. If people don’t like it its not good. Music that nobody likes is not good music. It has no value Replace all music with it and you ve harmed everyone instead of improving their lives
A 9mm bullet will not stop a criminal in his tracks unless you have good aim. Low caliber weapons are worthless. Life is not an action movie where people go flying when hit.
"whether people like it or not"
See that’s your personal preference. Why is your preference any better than that of some other person? If government acts on arbitrary preferences, which it does all the time, its just another privilege at the expense of other people and another decrease in welfare
if something is to improve welfare it must be scientific not based on random opinion. When there is no scientific and is entirely a question of opinion, like religion, like which food to ban, like which guns to ban, then if government is truly (which it isnt) trying to improve welfare, it would leave up to every individual person
And what scientific evidence do you have that guns laws will prevent criminals from attacking me with guns. Or where are you supposed to run most of the time if you suggest running away?
Again: "Laws against downloading music in most countries prevent downloading music." True or false? What forum is this?
Laws against stealing would prevent theft? Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws.
Laws against murder would prevent murder? Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws.
Laws against shitting on the sidewalk would prevent public defecation? Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws.
duuuuurrrrrrrr
Let’s hear it, man. By your logic we simply shouldn’t have laws against anything, because people who break the law don’t care about laws anyway so they do nothing, right?
Let’s hear it, man. By your logic we simply shouldn’t have laws against anything, because people who break the law don’t care about laws anyway so they do nothing, right?
Yes. Laws that are not physical laws don’t guarantee anything They simply are ways of labeling people That’s why criminals exist. People who by definition break those laws. Only physical scientific laws can’t be broken
Some laws label furthermore label the wrong people. The harm those they supposedly protect. If you use a gun to protect yourself or your family in an area where the government monopolized guns to itself, the government will execute you
So what the point? To pretend that people are safer and to make it easier for government to justify its own use of force without having to admit that it uses force or threat of force in every instance
And I did reply too You didn’t catch on. "Laws against downloading music prevent the downloading of music." True or false. What site is this?
You say a law against defecating on the sidewalk stops people from doing so. It does not. I can do so right now. So can you. Try it. You can do it People can drive drunk. Its only a question of getting caught. Criminals don’t care. People who have jobs do because must deal every day with the government. So it give criminals and the government, another form of criminal organization another advantage. Like they need another advantage
I am against any initiation of violence. Initiation of violence is what thieves and robbers do. This is also what government does. It threatens violence or ultimately carries it out to enforce arbitrary preferences and hand out privileges These people do not need help, which is what gun control does It places relatively more guns in the hands of those who least need them
Also reading this thread every one of these points has already been posted. it comes down to: is someones arbitrary preferences to be used to violently suppress the arbitrary preferences of other people who dont agree with them
For instance to ban guns. Or ban cheesecake because it makes you fat. Or alcohol because it makes you drunk. For instance to ban anything other than initiation of violent force.
You’re saying yes. Im saying no. Initiation of violent force is never moral. It is never ethical. You say by implication that it’s ethical so long as the STRONG, the government or bandits do it. I say its never ethical for anyone to do it
What is not ethical or moral for one person to do is not ethical or more for many people to do. Simply because some group of people are violent and strong and privileged does not mean they are moral. It certainly does not mean that they improve welfare
Governments are not there to improve your welfare. That’s a common prejudice.
Thank you. with that simple statement, I clearly know where you stand on the political board, as you precisely spout the kind of rampant lunacy that the republican, tea party and other left wingers all around like to repeat ad nauseam. see, I know latin, too.
Matter of fact, yes, the government is here to improve your welfare. see, the government is the "Executive" body of the state. it executes laws. laws that are designed to protect people or their goods. to that end, it maintains law enforcement agencies AND authorizes local executive bodies (AKA: states, cities) to maintain local law enforcement forces, in other words: cops. who have for mission to "protect and to serve". that’s their job description. in other words, you’re not supposed to substitute yourself to them just because you don’t like the concept.
If something is not voluntary but costly then its theft. Government behavior is mostly not voluntary. People did not agree to pay for most things government does
Quite the contrary. see, the government is the result of a popular election. that’s the first part of agreeing to taxes. then, the second part occurs when your representant, in congress (for the USA) or in any other democraticly elected national assembly (like the french Assembl???e Nationale or the british house of commons) agree to the taxes for the year to come. their agreement is, in theory at least, yours, since, you know, they were elected by the people.
A 9mm bullet will not stop a criminal in his tracks unless you have good aim. Low caliber weapons are worthless. Life is not an action movie where people go flying when hit.
this sentence leaves me speechless. really.
– because 9mm is not a small caliber. not at all. it’s a medium pistol caliber. hence why it’s in use for combat as a personal sidearm ammunition by nearly every goddamn military force on the planet. even the russians use a variant of 9mm, so do the chinese.
– Because a single 9mm hit can cause hydrostatic shock, in other words it can cause remote wounds beside the local effects of the direct impact. Contrary to what you imply, real life is quite the opposite to your statement: a single bullet is often very deadly. people don’t fly away. they fall, quite dead at that. oh, and a little extra for you: 9mm bullets of certain type can "ricochet" inside the body of the target for even more trauma. so yes. a single bullet is enough to kill. unlike in many movies, videogames, etc, where bullet riddled heroes survive.
– Aim matters for shit. if I shoot you with a beretta92 in the tigh, there’s a good chance you’ll be dead in a minute or so. because the coronary artery that runs in there will be but a pulverised memory afterward. if I shoot you in the torso, you’ll either die because I hit a vital organ, or from massive bloodloss (which is a VERY quick death). You may survive the shot, but you will definitely NOT be able to stay on your feet, unlike what movies like to show. and if I get your shoulder, you go down, because that’s what is called an incapacitating shot.
now, if I use a smaller caliber, one might not fall on the first bullet. true. but smaller caliber means less recoil, less recoil means I can adjust my first shoot more easily. which gives me a pretty good chance to hit a soft/lethal spot. because a .22 in the head (or to any other body part) is STILL quite lethal. for your info, Bob Kennedy was shot with a .22. So was Reagan. reagan survived, but the wound was still quite nasty. so were the wounds of the other 4 people injured. point in line: there’s no such thing as a small, inoffensive caliber.
As for your tirade on how one shouldn’t have to run or hide, that’s bullshit, plain and simple.
Thank you for clarifying that you admit that you approve of murder.
Specifically, you say that people who disagree with your arbitrary preferences should be executed, because you are more equal than all other people. And that’s what the government is for, you explain, to improve what you call it "welfare": hand out privileges to some people at the expense of others and murdering those who resist. You are a very nice person. Very moral. A and B conspire to take stuff away from C to give to D. If C resists they kill him. Because they outvote him 3 to 1. "Everyone picks on the powerless."
The PEOPLE didn’t elect them. Some people did. The minority is screwed and has their stuff stolen, because they are weak, by being fewer. But that does imply that theft and murder and persecution are morally acceptable. They never are.
Here is your argument analyzed, somebody just sent me this podcast
http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_719_Will_Kill.mp3
Its a thought experiment that nails your rambling. You disgust me.
And here is what welfare actually means in mainstream science taught in every university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency
"a change to a different allocation that makes at least one individual better off without making any other individual worse off"
and that a minimum for welfare, what is required at least
I’ll leave you to your madness, dark2600. I have a rule to not talk to crazies or stupid people. who knows: it could be contagious.
"you’re a sad strange man and you have my pity" as Buzz would say.
Still I believe that some powerful and interchangeable forces that could conclude to our final actions. The fuel of our motivation fear and anger should be limited and moderated if necessary. Criminology, as a science, can better help us to better understand the evolution of the criminal minds and how does it evolve. This is why I believe choices can be narrowed to define insanity, more or less, or some degrees of it.
Being so, tough laws should always be in place as one of the strict tools that can also somehow prevent wrong doers from committing mistakes. For example, I have heard that the famous criminal who shoot dozens in Norway was sentenced to long term jail only. I believe that this will encourage other people to follow his way. Extreme deviant behavior with radical ideology must be sentenced to the maximum penalty. Even if rules does not say so in one country. Different and extreme cases must be treated differently. Basic laws are there to deal with normal cases.
I’ll leave you to your madness, dark2600. I have a rule to not talk to crazies or stupid people. who knows: it could be contagious.
Insults win arguments right? Yeah and I was restating among other things this
Arrow’s impossibility theorem – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem)
docrate1 brought up voting like it means anything and said welfare is raised by government based on it like gun control. Voting is not optimal, nor more than brute force, no more than dictatorship. It NEVER represents people’s preferences when people are different.
This won the Nobel prize for its author. "Madness Crazy"
Regulations as result of voting (and dictatorship which is a special case) do not increase welfare. Somebody ends up privileged and if the result of the vote is enforced … the result is above. And the more so when the regulations dont even work to give the privileges to government like they are intended but give privileges to random violent criminals
I posted in this thread simply to keep everyone informed while listening to stuff. I’ll sum it up to keep the thread on track and leave it to other people now
"Laws against downloading music prevents downloading of music" which is clearly false in fact. So why would gun control reduce violence significantly? And even in theory in the ideal it cant increase welfare in the present system any more than other regulations of any kind
But criminology is more sensitive issue than pools and elections and it can not be applied the same way.
I will could certainly borrow one of the nicest Stanely Cohen quotes when he wrote nice master piece in politics and crime together in one simple qoutes here. In his Research "Folk Devils and Moral Panics" 1972 He said the following:
???A condition, episode, person or group of persons emerges to become defined as a threat to societal values and interests; its nature is presented in a stylized and stereotypical fashion by the mass media; the moral barricades are manned by editors, bishops, politicians, and other right-thinking people; socially accredited experts pronounce their diagnoses and solutions; ways of coping are evolved or resorted to; the condition then disappears, submerges or deteriorates and becomes more visible???
I wish I was in social studies because I like it a lot. Behavioral science and neuropsychology interest me a lot. Though I am in economics and finance so do not catch me in the corner XD
Laws against downloading music in most countries prevent downloading music. Right? 😛
Gun laws like downloading laws (the most recent one is in Japan, promising jail time for sharing AND downloading) only spread oppression. So if you’re in Japan and you watch youtube, any police officer if they can access you computer can arrest and charge you. Which means just about any person. In Germany you must prove you didn’t share something if accused. Which is impossible.
"Laws against downloading music prevents downloading of music" which is clearly false in fact. So why would gun control reduce violence significantly? And even in theory in the ideal it cant increase welfare in the present system any more than other regulations of any kind
Actually, laws preventing the downloading of music are not fully employed, not to a great extent at all. Have you ever heard of SOPA or PIPA? I’m sure you have, but in case not, here’s a brief overview. They’re bills introduced in 2011 in the House of Representatives and House of Senate, respectively, that seek to combat online piracy: illegal downloading and such. Their full names are Stop Online Piracy Act and PROTECT IP Act (Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft to Intellectual Property Act). If these bills pass, then from how I understand it, any website reported to the government as violating copyright laws and distributing intellectual property is subject to immediate termination and de-listing. So basically your argument is flawed because right now the full extent of the law in prohibiting illegal downloading is not yet in effect. How easy do you think it will be if and when SOPA or PIPA get passed? Clearly, people will find ways around it, but you’re not looking at the full picture.
Let’s apply this lesson to gun control. If the government disallows any sale of firearms entirely, don’t you think it will be at least a little bit more difficult for someone to get their hands on guns? If you want a gun under this scenario, you’ll have to smuggle it in or steal it from someone who already has one. So unlike your argument, yes, banning guns entirely will increase the difficulty in getting a gun. That’s not to say that it will be absolutely impossible to get a gun; just look at American Prohibition. And yes, even with stronger gun control laws, insane people or wanton murderers can still get their hands on guns. But at least it will be more difficult.
My last point is that violating intellectual property and murdering someone are completely different. Completely different. If I download a song, I’m hurting a miniscule fraction of an artist’s economic income. Writ large, it can be a problem, but on the individual level, it isn’t. A law against copyright is a law against the infringement of intellectual property, not a threat of human life. A law against murder is a law about human rights. As stated in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Rights to intellectual property are not as essential to human coexistence as are the human rights stated by Thomas Jefferson.
So yeah, the law says that we’re not supposed to urinate in public, but people still do it and, for the most part, no harm done. Yeah, the law says that we’re not supposed to download songs illegaly, but people still do it and, for the most part, no harm done. You can’t say the same thing for murder. Not all laws are treated with the same gravity.
Whoa there, dude. Who said anything about anything guaranteeing anything? Why are you arguing purely from extremes?
Look, everybody knows that some people break the law. But laws are a way that a society collectively says, "Because we don’t want this kind of behavior in our society, we will punish anyone who we catch engaging in it, in x fashion." Without that punishment looming over people’s heads, it is much more tempting for them to do anything they want. As it stands, people steal and murder in this country every day. But how many more people do you think would steal and murder if there was no penalty for it, and no police force that would work to catch them and ensure that that penalty is carried out?
The idea behind gun control laws is the same. Obviously, you cannot prevent people from obtaining guns if they are absolutely determined to. But what you can do is drastically reduce the availability of those guns, and greatly increase the trouble and risk involved in obtaining them. By definition this will statistically lower the number of guns available to fall into the hands of criminals and increase the number who are caught for illegally obtaining them. It’s very basic math. The laws are supposed to help reduce the total amount of suffering caused by guns in the hands of criminals. They are not being proposed as some kind of magical cure for all violence.
The real problem, as has been stated already quite often, is that our culture is obsessed with violence and it teaches young men that violence is glorious and thrilling. This is definitely something we need to address. But that doesn’t mean that as we’re working on it we can’t try to minimize the damage before we’ve solved the problem.
Connecticut Town Will Collect, Destroy Violent Games – IGN (http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/01/03/connecticut-town-will-collect-destroy-violent-games?utm_campaign=ign+main+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social)
This was hilarious
Alex Jones Piers Morgan Part 1. 1776 Will Commence Again' If Guns Taken Away – YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyKofFih8Y)
you wouldnt even think of robbing the guy next to you if you knew he had a gun.
———- Post added at 03:35 PM ———- Previous post was at 03:09 PM ———-
Thats the whole issue with guns, they are to strong.
If everyone had a gun for example, then yes you would think of robbing someone, all you have to do is shoot them first. It’s not like you are going to tell someone you are going to rob them are you. You just do it.
you wouldnt even think of robbing the guy next to you if you knew he had a gun.
No, you’d think of shooting him before he could shoot you and then looting his corpse.
Are you actually this retarded? You think that if everyone had weapons, nobody would ever attempt to use them?
Are you actually this retarded? You think that if everyone had weapons, nobody would ever attempt to use them?
It’s Rokusho you’re talking about.
Of course he is THAT retarded.
"so and so disagrees with me. Obviously he’s a retard."
"yes, he’s totally a retard. That’s why he’s wrong."
very convincing and deep
you claim you don’t like guns but you’ve somehow managed to shoot something already: and that something is logic
"so and so disagrees with me. Obviously he’s a retard."
"yes, he’s totally a retard. That’s why he’s wrong."
very convincing and deep
you claim you don’t like guns but you’ve somehow managed to shoot something already: and that something is logic
Don’t worry. at this point that was a mercy killing after all your insane ramblings on how people needed guns. you’re crazy, and obviously not aware of all the sheer stupid things Rokusho ever has said around here.
And it’s not guns I dislike. it’s the mythos you need a gun to defend yourself that disgusts me. that you need to be able to buy any sort of gun, even the most dangerous weapons available on the market, to assess the supposed need to defend your home. which, you know, there’s a whole bunch of people called "police" or "Sheriff" departments paid for that very job. but you’ll probably ramble again on how I’m a monster for condemning people to death.
case in point: you’re crazy, off your meds, or utterly stupid.
Or the most useless troll this forum has ever known.
I’m hesitating between option 3 and 4.
go back to your beloved guns, and
:stopposting:
Again you call me crazy. And write I should stop posting. But where’s the actual arguments. Just more name calling. So who’s the troll? Is name calling a way of winning debates at the university you attended? I doubt it.
This reminds me … The People’s Cube – Political Humor & Satire – as seen on GBTV (http://thepeoplescube.com/)
Again you call me crazy. And write I should stop posting. But where’s the actual arguments. Just more name calling. So who’s the troll? Is name calling a way of winning debates at the university you attended? I doubt it.
This reminds me … The People’s Cube – Political Humor & Satire – as seen on GBTV (http://thepeoplescube.com/)
no, it wasn’t.
but spouting bullshit out of one’s hat wasn’t either.
I gave you cold, hard facts once. even twice. you didn’t even bother reading them. you deformed them, with conspirationist and anti-government jibba jabba.
So, once again:
1 – military grade weaponry ARE NOT self defense weapons. an assault rifle bears the name for a reason.
2 – People aren’t supposed to defend or "enforce" the law themselves. that’s the police/army job.
3 – Any sane cop will tell you "if you’re getting robbed, don’t play the hero, that’ll only results in more bodybags for us to process". One of said bodybags potentially being you or a family member.
4 – Most semi-auto rifles, pistols or SMGs fire grossly overpowered ammunitions, designed for military purposes. as for #1, the "bellum" in 9mm Parabellum isn’t there to make it look like an educated bullet.
5 – You do know that a single 9mm bullet can go through a wall or an iron door, do you ? which means that shooting a thief potentially also means shooting your girlfriend, wife, daughter or just the mailman outside.
6 – Being without a gun doesn’t mean being defenseless. non-lethal self defense weapons exist for a reason. same thing for martial arts and self defense classes.
7 – less risk of stray bullett with a good old truncheon. just sayin’
I could find a lot more reasons why civilians shouldn’t have guns, but it’s 3:25 AM here, and after 20 hours awake, my brain is starting to hurt.
"so and so disagrees with me. Obviously he’s a retard."
"yes, he’s totally a retard. That’s why he’s wrong."
very convincing and deep
you claim you don’t like guns but you’ve somehow managed to shoot something already: and that something is logic
Did you like the style of debate where :cat: claimed that if everyone had guns, nobody would ever use guns to shoot other people with guns?
THERES A MILLION WAYS EVERYONE HAVING A GUN CAN GO WRONG.
BRAINS: not everyone has one it seems.
anyway, this sorry excuse of a living being has exhausted my patience.
she is now the newest member of my exclusive ignore list.
why should i even bother
1 – military grade weaponry ARE NOT self defense weapons. an assault rifle bears the name for a reason.
Why are they not? Is it in their inherent nature to not be used for self-defense? Surely, they can be used for self-defense. There’s no law of nature saying they can’t. Assault rifles can be instruments of deterrence, you don’t have to necessarily fire them to use them.
2 – People aren’t supposed to defend or "enforce" the law themselves. that’s the police/army job.
What is a law? Aren’t laws supposed to protect people? And if laws can’t be defended or enforced by the people, does that mean that people can’t defend themselves? Or each other? If a group of men break into your house and proceed to your wife or girlfriend, are you really going to call the police and wait for them to arrive?
3 – Any sane cop will tell you "if you’re getting robbed, don’t play the hero, that’ll only results in more bodybags for us to process". One of said bodybags potentially being you or a family member.
Again, so we should let criminals walk all over us? Again, what if robbers broke into your house and started beating you and loading all your stuff into a moving truck? You don’t want to provide a defense? What about the body bag of the Indian woman who died last week after getting raped by a group of men on a bus? I wonder if the survivor from that assault is happy there’s only one body bag from that assault.
4 – Most semi-auto rifles, pistols or SMGs fire grossly overpowered ammunitions, designed for military purposes. as for #1, the "bellum" in 9mm Parabellum isn’t there to make it look like an educated bullet.
You clearly know much more about guns than I do, so I will not argue with these facts. However, I will ask you what significance that has? Deadly force means deadly force. I know that you’re arguing against overkill and believe that life should be spared when it can. That belief comes from a line of thinking that is vehemently against the capital punishment, which is still in effect in America. But did you see the public reaction to a Georgia mother who shot an intruder in her house with the kids still inside? She is considered a hero by the American public. If she killed the intruder, how much sympathy do you think there would be any sympathy for the victim? Not much, and do you know why? It’s because, at least from what I gather of America, when you get a crowbar and decide to invade someone else’s property and potentially threaten the safety and lives of other people, you forfeit your own life and safety. This is an unwritten rule whose effectiveness is consistently tested in the court of law. So whereas you might spare the life of a home intruder, that’s not the way things work over here.
5 – You do know that a single 9mm bullet can go through a wall or an iron door, do you ? which means that shooting a thief potentially also means shooting your girlfriend, wife, daughter or just the mailman outside.
You could say the same thing about knives or truncheons. One might trip over something when rushing to an attacker and accidentally hit an innocent person. There’s always a risk of missing your target with a gun, it’s not just 9mm bullets.
6 – Being without a gun doesn’t mean being defenseless. non-lethal self defense weapons exist for a reason. same thing for martial arts and self defense classes.
This reminds me of a quote from Death Proof. "Do you know what happens to niggas with a knife? They get shot."
7 – less risk of stray bullett with a good old truncheon. just sayin’
So…you are advocating defending yourself with a weapon (as opposed to point 3 above).
I could find a lot more reasons why civilians shouldn’t have guns, but it’s 3:25 AM here, and after 20 hours awake, my brain is starting to hurt.
I’m actually not entirely disagreeing that civilians shouldn’t have guns; however, I don’t think that the points that have been made are sufficient for that argument. And I think you mean "why civilians shouldn’t have assault rifles or military grade weapons."
I know that a lot of our differences come from being in different cultures and backgrounds, and while that does provide new insight and gives cause for reflection in our own way of thinking, I feel that many of the ingrained beliefs and laws that differ between our countries will remain different, for better or for worse.
why should i even bother
Wait, I thought I was on your ignore list?
Why were you responding?
Assault Rifle. Assault. it bears the name for a reason. it fire military grade ammunition designed to pierce walls, and light personnal armors. they’re big. cumbersome (although it depends of the weapon), they carry 20 to 30 bullets. and they cost three to four time as much than a decent .25 pistol. which IS a self defense weapon. of course, the sight of an assault rifle might discourage an intruder. but a .25 or .22 weapon will do exactly the same, for a fraction of the price.
What is a law? Aren’t laws supposed to protect people? And if laws can’t be defended or enforced by the people, does that mean that people can’t defend themselves? Or each other? If a group of men break into your house and proceed to your wife or girlfriend, are you really going to call the police and wait for them to arrive?
Laws aren’t made to be enforced by people. that’s the problem. Law enforcement is the "privilege" of the executive power, whether local (city, county, state) or federal/national (FBI for the US, National police forces for non-federal countries). Citizens have NEVER been supposed to uphold the law. citizens upholding the law have a name: militias. and a country where militias uphold the laws are always a bad sign. as for the hypothetical situation you state, here’s a counter argument: what if, intending to shoot the intruder, you hit your wife instead ?
Again, so we should let criminals walk all over us? Again, what if robbers broke into your house and started beating you and loading all your stuff into a moving truck? You don’t want to provide a defense? What about the body bag of the Indian woman who died last week after getting raped by a group of men on a bus? I wonder if the survivor from that assault is happy there’s only one body bag from that assault.
I’ve never said you should let criminals walk over you, did I ? as for the indian exemple, it simply doesn’t work. one, because she was GANG-raped. multiple offenders. say you’re in the bus, casually carrying your weapon in an easy-to-access way. say you’re like millions of people bred by Hollywood into thinking shooting someone right where you want is easy as pie. the girl gets assaulted. you have multiple offenders, in a rolling vehicle, on a potentially bad road, and you have a gun with 6 to 18 bullets in it.
again, in your opinion, how many chances are there for this situation to end well for the girl and you ?
answer : close to none. because you’re in a bus driven by one of the offenders. and if you start shooting, either he will take the bus to HIS part of town, where you’ll have to deal with other friends of his, or you’ll have to shoot him, potentially leading to a deadly accident with potentially lethal consequences for everybody involved, and also a lot of potential passer-bys. not counting the possibility you shoot by accident the very person you’re trying to defend.
As shitty as it seems…shit happens. this poor girl did draw the shittiest hand in the history of bad luck, but no weapon in the universe could have saved her. except maybe a boyfriend with a very solid martial art background and a collapsible stick.
You clearly know much more about guns than I do, so I will not argue with these facts. However, I will ask you what significance that has? Deadly force means deadly force. I know that you’re arguing against overkill and believe that life should be spared when it can. That belief comes from a line of thinking that is vehemently against the capital punishment, which is still in effect in America. But did you see the public reaction to a Georgia mother who shot an intruder in her house with the kids still inside? She is considered a hero by the American public. If she killed the intruder, how much sympathy do you think there would be any sympathy for the victim? Not much, and do you know why? It’s because, at least from what I gather of America, when you get a crowbar and decide to invade someone else’s property and potentially threaten the safety and lives of other people, you forfeit your own life and safety. This is an unwritten rule whose effectiveness is consistently tested in the court of law. So whereas you might spare the life of a home intruder, that’s not the way things work over here.
two corrections:
Deadly force doesn’t mean deadly force.
say you have an intruder in your house.
you shoot him with a small caliber: the guy is good for a trip to the hospital, if you’re sane and shot him in the lower leg, shoulders or arm. if you shot him dead…you’re in for a fun trial. because proving the guy had murderous intent is impossible. especially if his rapsheet consists only in small burglaries. you would still be pursued for manslaughter. Also, NOTHING legally says "any idiot tresspassing with a crowbar another person’s home renounces his life". it’s not written in the law, and it is NOT enforced by the law. the only people who have the right to "shoot" someone dead, in any "normal" country, are the police, and under very strict circumstances.
of course, you can shoot him with a high caliber weapon, and the guy will pretty much die without a doubt. then, troubles, manslaughter, silly defense line about "forfeitting his life because he was trepassing and had a crowbar".
result: jail time for you. maybe not a lot. but still jail.
So…you are advocating defending yourself with a weapon (as opposed to point 3 above).
Last time I checked, truncheons do not fire .223 rem bullets at high velocity. it’s a weapon. but not a fire arm, and it’s technically considered a "non-lethal" weapon. also, I’d like to see how you can accidently kill a bystander 5 or more meters away from you with a truncheon. really.
I’m actually not entirely disagreeing that civilians shouldn’t have guns; however, I don’t think that the points that have been made are sufficient for that argument. And I think you mean "why civilians shouldn’t have assault rifles or military grade weapons."
exactly. that’s the crux of the problem. I’m not against weapons. not even against firearms. but I think every job requires specific tools. you don’t defend with a weapon made for aggression. I also think there are less risks of killing someone, whether willingly or unwillingly with smaller caliber weapons.
to make things clear:
I’m against the possession of any weapon classified as an Assault rifle, submachine gun, machine pistol, or any weapon using military grade ammo: .223 REM, 9mm parabellum, .40, .44 mag and other hipower pistol calibers, and special ammo type like hollow points. I’m willing to let it slide for .308, but only for hunting rifles. On the opposite, if you really want to defend your home, go for .22 or .25 weapons, and get a solid training in how to handle them correctly. 12 gauge caliber shotguns are, in my opinion, to dangerous for self defense purpose because even with ammo designed for self defense, the spread of the birdshot can still cause real nasty injuries.
I also think that a good non-lethal weapon cumulated with self defense training AND a good, solid door (with a good lock) can do a world of good for your protection.
I’m sorry man but that is just fucking insane. You would be better off with a fucking crossbow.
If someone is armed and breaking into your home and all you have is a .22, you are more likely to piss them off with a shot to the leg. Even a person trained in firearm handling can get scared of someone breaking in. A leg shot or arm shot won’t stop some hopped up desperate robber, especially with a round that can only do damage to the smallest of things.
I’m not advocating Wild West style killings in "self-defense", but holy shit you are being hopelessly and unrealistically unreasonable.
It just isn’t possible that every possible break in can be defused with begging or a blunt object.
———- Post added at 08:30 PM ———- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ———-
Just to clarify, I live in an area where hard drug use is becoming worse and people are becoming more bold in getting money. I live in a mobile home (when I’m not at school) with a large glass sliding door in the back. I have a fence, but if my fat ass can climb over it, I’m sure anyone else can. I would rather have at least a .38 Special revolver if I have to deal with someone who may not even feel the shot of a tiny caliber like .22 or .25.
I agree, shotgun is overkill and too cumbersome for emergencies, Rifles can over penetrate, and other pistol calibers can over penetrate. However, .22 is just not a reliable self defense weapon.
Oh and if you were applying to be an officer, and you told them that limb shots are viable when using firearms, they would laugh you right out of the fucking door (I work with Criminal Justice and know many former and current officers from local to state level). If you intend on using a firearm to kill someone, you have be ready to kill them or at least incapacitate by hitting center mass..
If that is not acceptable, get a decent taser. I would regard rushing a robber with a nightstick as basically the dumbest and riskiest thing you can do in a break in situation. You’ll just get yourself severely injured.
I’m sorry man but that is just fucking insane. You would be better off with a fucking crossbow.
If someone is armed and breaking into your home and all you have is a .22, you are more likely to piss them off with a shot to the leg. Even a person trained in firearm handling can get scared of someone breaking in. A leg shot or arm shot won’t stop some hopped up desperate robber, especially with a round that can only do damage to the smallest of things.
I beg to differ, Aden.
Especially since I’ve know a friend who was nearly killed by his alcoholic father. he was 17 at the time, and was shot in the abdomen at a 5 meter range. result: 8 hours in the hospital’s surgery block to try to save his life. he survived, but never tell him ".22 is harmless".
and for the record: shooting someone with a .22 in the head, torso or abdomen, not even at close range, can still cause lethal/crippling injuries. The .22 caliber was used in the reagan assassination attempt, and left some of the victims crippled. there was also a shooting spree in a school in finland that resulted in 11 deaths, all by a .22 pistol. just because the recoil is near inexistant and that it can’t pierce most body armors or even a simple plate of steel at the range, doesn’t mean the goddamn thing is harmless. quite the contrary. we’re flesh, blood and bones, not reinforced beings. a .22 bullet can very well kill even a big guy. not just "piss him off", Aden.
———- Post added at 03:59 AM ———- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ———-
oh, and I also left out the .308 and 12 gauge of my "not to authorize" list. If you tell me the stopping power of .308 isn’t enough, I revoke your fapping privileges for the month to come, you pervert.
Where did I say that .22 was harmless? I said that its stopping power may not be sufficient. Now where did I fucking say it was goddamned harmless! All firearms are dangerous no matter the caliber.
PCP, meth, and the like can make people not feel anything in regards to pain. Small caliber rounds may also bounce off larger bones and not do anything. Not all the time but the possibility is there. I just don’t feel comfortable with those odds personally. I do take back the bit about them only being effective against small things. However, it is entirely possible for someone to shrug off a shot to a limb.
Again, so we should let criminals walk all over us? Again, what if robbers broke into your house and started beating you and loading all your stuff into a moving truck? You don’t want to provide a defense?
No amount of stuff is worth your life. If that’s what they came for let them have it. Most run-of-the-mill burglars would prefer to not kill you as well.
And the "defense" for most people is useless since statistically it almost always ends up worse for the defendant especially when they are armed. Which is why law enforcement overwhelmingly hates the idea of taking the situation into your own hands.
And against ones who deliberately want to harm you or your loved ones, why would you choose the option that statistically only puts them in more danger?
Running isn’t thought of highly, but it is much better than dying because of some sort of weird justification of pride or manliness.
I think let the people have guns, but only if they have a rigorous training and licensing that must be renewed like your driver’s license.
Statistics show the average idiot with a gun does more harm than good especially to himself under the guise of "defending himself"
PCP, meth, and the like can make people not feel anything in regards to pain. Small caliber rounds may also bounce off larger bones and not do anything. Not all the time but the possibility is there. I just don’t feel comfortable with those odds personally. I do take back the bit about them only being effective against small things. However, it is entirely possible for someone to shrug off a shot to a limb.
I think the argument that a person might invade your home, might be on drugs, and might fail to be rendered harmless by a shot from a .22 is all extremely situational and not a very good one in the face of the counterargument that making more threatening guns widely available makes it easier for those same home invaders to get their hands on something more harmful to you. I understand it’s possible for there to be a case where a stronger gun might allow you to better defend your home. But you have to look at the big picture. Look at what the overall good will be of ultimately restricting access to these things, so that the average desperate home invader on PCP (incidentally I think this is going to turn out to be a very tiny minority of invaders, most of them will just be sober people in desperate circumstances) will not be able to get these things, nor will the average mentally unstable teenager who might be tempted to go out in a blaze of glory.
In other words, there is no perfect solution to defending one’s home from potential attackers, including the use of powerful handguns. What is the cost to our society of making such weapons available, and how does it compare to the benefits?
And the "defense" for most people is useless since statistically it almost always ends up worse for the defendant especially when they are armed. Which is why law enforcement overwhelmingly hates the idea of taking the situation into your own hands.
And against ones who deliberately want to harm you or your loved ones, why would you choose the option that statistically only puts them in more danger?
Running isn’t thought of highly, but it is much better than dying because of some sort of weird justification of pride or manliness.
I think let the people have guns, but only if they have a rigorous training and licensing that must be renewed like your driver’s license.
Statistics show the average idiot with a gun does more harm than good especially to himself under the guise of "defending himself"
And can you really live with being responsible for someone’s death? IMO, if the burglar is not armed with a firearm and you are, call the police and hold them at bay till they can get there.
I don’t have weapons hidden in my house, I keep them all in a safe (as any responsible owner should do) so I would never play the hero.
———- Post added at 10:32 PM ———- Previous post was at 10:29 PM ———-
I think the argument that a person might invade your home, might be on drugs, and might fail to be rendered harmless by a shot from a .22 is all extremely situational and not a very good one in the face of the counterargument that making more threatening guns widely available makes it easier for those same home invaders to get their hands on something more harmful to you. I understand it’s possible for there to be a case where a stronger gun might allow you to better defend your home. But you have to look at the big picture. Look at what the overall good will be of ultimately restricting access to these things, so that the average desperate home invader on PCP (incidentally I think this is going to turn out to be a very tiny minority of invaders, most of them will just be sober people in desperate circumstances) will not be able to get these things, nor will the average mentally unstable teenager who might be tempted to go out in a blaze of glory.
In other words, there is no perfect solution to defending one’s home from potential attackers, including the use of powerful handguns. What is the cost to our society of making such weapons available, and how does it compare to the benefits?
Yeah, I definitely see where you are coming from. I have no argument against that.
Though was the part I bolded an implication against me?
———- Post added at 10:50 PM ———- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ———-
And just to clarify one last time, I believe that deadly force should be the absolute last option. I do not wish to kill anyone. I don’t think people should just decide on the fly who should live and who should die.
However there are certainly people out there that are unstable and should never own firearms. I believe that far more regulation is needed to deal with firearm possession and trade. I just don’t have much faith that the US government can effectively do it, due to America’s ridiculous gun culture and governmental incompetence.
Now who’s putting words in someone else’s mouth? :laugh:
Pretty sure it was just a general reference to mass shooters, who according to the FBI profiles are 95% of the time teenage males who were depressed. I can’t find the article right now, but in the last 20 years there has been like exactly one female mass shooter.
Pretty sure it was just a general reference to mass shooters, who according to the FBI profiles are 95% of the time teenage males who were depressed. I can’t find the article right now, but in the last 20 years there has been like exactly one female mass shooter.
Just making sure :laugh:
I have seriously seen that sort of thing pulled on other forums when this comes up. Its getting very divisive and I can never really tell if there are hidden meanings nowadays. The amount of ridiculous shit pulled by progun and anitgun people is getting bad. There really isn’t much of a debate other than "dont take meh guns" or "ban all guns". Not on this site obviously.
Apologies
I do not agree.
Oh, no, not at all. Was meant to be talking about kids who shoot up schools. Are you a teenager? I didn’t know that if so.
PCP, meth, and the like can make people not feel anything in regards to pain. Small caliber rounds may also bounce off larger bones and not do anything. Not all the time but the possibility is there. I just don’t feel comfortable with those odds personally. I do take back the bit about them only being effective against small things. However, it is entirely possible for someone to shrug off a shot to a limb.
If your house is invaded by a guy under the influence of PCP/Meth or likewise drugs, there’s pretty much only one solution: either run for your life, because whatever you’ll throw at them, they’ll shrug it off on the moment, or have a domesticated, very large and very dangerous well-trained dog.
thinking back of my arguments, I think the biggest problem with guns isn’t only the weapons, but the training. most people don’t know how to use their weapon, what it can do, what the ballistic properties of the ammo are, how to correctly handle the thing. Any firearm is basically lethal. the standard damage vary, but a direct shot at a vital organ is always lethal. I’ll give you that a crippling shot at someone (say, the leg) with a .22 may not stop him. not immediately. but it will slow him down, unless he’s on PCP/meth. in which case a crippling shot with a higher caliber may not be enough either. which is why people should be train first at crippling shots, then in very very exceptionnal case, at center-mass shots.
point is:
If you don’t have a weapon and want to buy one, .22 to .32. it’s enough. no need for more powerful ammo. then get some training. nothing is worse than someone with a weapon and no training.
if you have a hunting rifle, then it’s probably a .308 or a 12 gauge and you know how to handle it "safely". their stopping power is quite impressive, but you have to be cautious when using them, either because the .308 can pierce your opponent, then possibly someone else, either because of the spread of the shotgun-shot.
Whatever the situation is, lethal force must be a last, desperate ressort.
But seriously, guns ARE legal in the US. They are a part of the consitution, a legal contract that every American has with the government. We should be allowed to carry any gun, knife, sharp stick, whatever, where-ever we go, but in California, you are not allowed any blade longer than 3 inches, no gun unless you have a concealed weapons license (Can’t they see the gun handle sticking out of the holster?) and forget about any sticks, like a pool cue, the type that unscrew in two parts, they are ILLEGAL, and any cop will arrest you! I was trained in Nunchuka when I was young, and I know that they are totally defensive weapons. If you were going to try and attack or rob a person with them, all they would have to do is "Run away"! What are you going to do? Run after them and try to hit them? you would wind up hitting yourself, or perhaps a tree or something. Not an offensive weapon at all, but they are completely illegal!
When I was in Arizona, for the funeral of my father, I noticed alot of people with guns, where the laws are really different than in Los Angeles. I was amazed at how open they were about it. If I didn’t have to be in LA for my job, I might just relocate there. I would LOVE the heat, hehehehe 🙂
Anyway, people, guns ARE legal, and we all should be able to arm ourselves in any manner that we see fit. The old discussion (one cop had asked me) of "if all ‘ARMS’ were legal, then anyone could just house an A-BOMB in his house"!! Really, people, are we that stupid? There is a HUGE difference between firearms and weapons of mass destruction, SERIOUSLY!
Nuff said.
William
You know why?
Because nukes are heavily controlled and regulated.
Control of guns would also reduce deaths caused by them.
tell that to the criminals
Too bad for you empirical evidence shows that with restrictions, even criminals tend to not get their hands on guns. This can be seen in Japan where even Yakuza, one of the most infamous criminal organizations in the world, tend to eschew using firearms.
Criminals will commit a crime if they want to, yes, but it doesn’t have to be with a gun. Getting a gun, even illegally, isn’t as easy as it sounds. Having the connections for it to go smoothly is well out of the purview of most. If the risk/reward ratio is too out of whack they will look for other options which is usually to either not do it or choose something much less capable of mass killings.
It’s the same sort of human nature/laziness that makes someone watch a show they don’t particularly like because they are too lazy to get the remote that is out of reach.
As a species we tend to go for the path of least resistance.
Japan is an island with heavy restrictions on their people, always has been, with no REAL army.
-I’m not sure there’s even a gun manufacturer in the country.
Banning guns in the USA ain’t gonna stop criminals, may of whom have stockpiled them.
I do not agree.
this i agree with.
better have a dead person at my feet, than being dead at their feet.
oh and drugs? aim for the head.
if youre not calm enough to handle such a situation, you should not be allowed to own a gun in the first place.
i learned this…. a long time ago.
Japan is an island with heavy restrictions on their people, always has been, with no REAL army.
-I’m not sure there’s even a gun manufacturer in the country.
Banning guns in the USA ain’t gonna stop criminals, may of whom have stockpiled them.
It’s not just Japan. It’s anywhere with tight restrictions. Even ones with high ownership rates put restrictions on ammunition and also teach proper handling and respect. Lo and behold, low gun crime.
For the record, I wasn’t advocating banning guns. I am all for education and empowerment. An uneducated gun user is more dangerous than even some of the criminals he may have bought it to protect himself from.
the evidence is indisputable. if you banned guns in USA there would be less gun crime.
the evidence is indisputable. if you banned guns in USA there would be less gun crime.
Like they did in Chicago, which had more gun deaths last year than all the casualties from Afghanistan?
There are too many guns in the US to ‘ban’ them at this point. There does need to be some regulation, but there cannot be a ban. There are more alcohol related deaths than firearm deaths in the US every year…do we ban alcohol?
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811402EE.pdf (alcohol related deaths)
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 – Crime in the United States 2009 (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html) (firearm deaths)
Just something to think about
the evidence is indisputable. if you banned guns in USA there would be less gun crime.
The UK has less gun crime, but a much higher rate of violent crime as a result of their ban.
Next to my Bed, I have a "stick", because due to a Disability, I work with a Stick, that stick ( who cost Me a Fortune from an Antiquity shop in London ), that stick open and it’s a "fine sword", well I use it just when I go by "obligation" in the "underground World", just for my security ( till now, I don’t had to "really" use it )…Next to my Bed, because, I been "rob" 5 times !!!
Got any data to back that up?
As I say, I never HAD TO USE GUNS, but make me feel better…IN CASE !!! ( I had a lot of "IN CASE" but I don’t get my gun )…just simple protection…you never know what can happen to you ( OR NO !!!! )…
I go to make a "F…………R" and must coming back…where can I go ???, unless in this so GOOD Forum !!! 😉
.
where to go…Where << ask Blondie ??>>…I don’t have the phone of Blondie ( maybe is on the NET 🙂 hahahah ( oui ) !!!
.
But seriously, guns ARE legal in the US. They are a part of the consitution, a legal contract that every American has with the government. We should be allowed to carry any gun, knife, sharp stick, whatever, where-ever we go, but in California, you are not allowed any blade longer than 3 inches, no gun unless you have a concealed weapons license (Can’t they see the gun handle sticking out of the holster?) and forget about any sticks, like a pool cue, the type that unscrew in two parts, they are ILLEGAL, and any cop will arrest you! I was trained in Nunchuka when I was young, and I know that they are totally defensive weapons. If you were going to try and attack or rob a person with them, all they would have to do is "Run away"! What are you going to do? Run after them and try to hit them? you would wind up hitting yourself, or perhaps a tree or something. Not an offensive weapon at all, but they are completely illegal!
When I was in Arizona, for the funeral of my father, I noticed alot of people with guns, where the laws are really different than in Los Angeles. I was amazed at how open they were about it. If I didn’t have to be in LA for my job, I might just relocate there. I would LOVE the heat, hehehehe
Anyway, people, guns ARE legal, and we all should be able to arm ourselves in any manner that we see fit. The old discussion (one cop had asked me) of "if all ‘ARMS’ were legal, then anyone could just house an A-BOMB in his house"!! Really, people, are we that stupid? There is a HUGE difference between firearms and weapons of mass destruction, SERIOUSLY!
Nuff said.
William
Well say William !!!!
And anyway, if you wan to find a Gun ( Even A Bomb )…not difficult, oh yes you have to "Dive" 🙂
Go in the Island of Kalymnos ( yes not for the Sponge ), but for buy Dynamite, by what you wan… Gr, Kilos, "ready to explosion’s one"… depend who you wan to kill 😉
No Of course, You have to "Protect Yourself and family"…God that’s a REAL RIGHT !!!!!
my 2 cents.
Everyone wants to argue about how it should be used, why their way is the better way, and why/how it should be restricted/used.
No one is ever going to agree on gun control, just like no one is ever going to agree on DRM.
🙂
I think what’s a lot more significant is the differences between DRM and gun control like for example the fact that guns are machines that are made to kill people, and video games are machines that are made to play games on.
I think what’s a lot more significant is the differences between DRM and gun control like for example the fact that guns are machines that are made to kill people, and video games are machines that are made to play games on.
If you boil it down, controversy is essentially a set of [EXTREMELY] differing opinions, so… yeah. Anything can turn into a controversy, if everyone involved gets all up-in-arms about their side of the argument [see what I did there?].
As I say, I never HAD TO USE GUNS, but make me feel better…IN CASE !!! ( I had a lot of "IN CASE" but I don’t get my gun )…just simple protection…you never know what can happen to you ( OR NO !!!! )…
I go to make a "F…………R" and must coming back…where can I go ???, unless in this so GOOD Forum !!! 😉
.
where to go…Where << ask Blondie ??>>…I don’t have the phone of Blondie ( maybe is on the NET 🙂 hahahah ( oui ) !!!
.Guns for protection make sense, but it shouldn’t be a necessity. Sadly, in some areas, it is.
and more deaths. planet is getting too crowded.
So stuff trying to impose more guns law.
Just arm us all and train us well.
———- Post added at 09:00 AM ———- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ———-
It all comes down to the old saw that, however much you can gain with a kind word, you can gain more with a kind word and a gun.