I heard that Ultimecia was Rinoa, at first i didnāt want to believe it but then some things made sense
1- Rinoa Didnāt want to give her powers to some little girl, so she kept them.
2- Since a sorceress lives longer than the average human, she would live longer, and all her friends would die, including Squall, that may led her to be alone.
3- Since a knight serves to protect the sanity of a sorceress and helps her to not feel lonely ( Edea explains that when you go there with Rinoa on disc 3, before entering the garden when Squall makes his promise)
4- Since she uses a GF, she will with time forget all about his friends, and since she is a sorceress she will be hated by some, leading her to become violent
5- Her GF is Grievert and what is on Squallās ring? And in the game the ring is creating bonds between Squall and Rinoa
6- In the Final Fmv, thereās a part when Rinoaās wings turn black, and the eyes of Ultimecia appear every once in a while, this part iām not so sureā¦
7 ā Maybe sheās tryin to achieve time compression to change something ā Siabout her past, preventing her friends to die, or to pass her powers.
8- Since she is with the party she knows what Elloneās powers are capable to do, so she will watch closely to what happens to Ellone or to Dr Odineās machine
Well this is just a Theory but what do you think? And also i apologize to every Squall+ Rinoaās fans who want an happy ending.
Once again sorry for the Spoilers
1- Rinoa Didnāt want to give her powers to some little girl, so she kept them.
Where did you hear this stuff?
2- Since a sorceress lives longer than the average human, she would live longer, and all her friends would die, including Squall, that may led her to be alone.
Seriouslyā¦
3- Since a knight serves to protect the sanity of a sorceress and helps her to not feel lonely ( Edea explains that when you go there with Rinoa on disc 3, before entering the garden when Squall makes his promise)
So youāre sayingā¦ what?
4- Since she uses a GF, she will with time forget all about his friends, and since she is a sorceress she will be hated by some, leading her to become violent
Huh?
5- Her GF is Grievert and what is on Squallās ring? And in the game the ring is creating bonds between Squall and Rinoa
True. But that doesnāt make Rinoa as Ultimecia at all. Squall just have that Griever ring because he likes Griever.
6- In the Final Fmv, thereās a part when Rinoaās wings turn black, and the eyes of Ultimecia appear every once in a while, this part iām not so sureā¦
I didnāt really see Rinoaās wings turn black at all. If that really happened, thatās just because Ultimecia possesed Rinoa. That doesnāt make Ultimecia as Rinoa at all.
7 ā Maybe sheās tryin to achieve time compression to change something ā Siabout her past, preventing her friends to die, or to pass her powers.
No, Ultimecia wants to take over the world by using time compression. Not to change her past.
8- Since she is with the party she knows what Elloneās powers are capable to do, so she will watch closely to what happens to Ellone or to Dr Odineās machine
Thatās not true at allā¦ Oh manā¦
I get the point! Iām sorry for the post, but i just thought it would be interesting, and certainly i donāt want to be flamed, so iām sorry
This highly controversial theory has become immensely (in)famous ever since
it was first conceived of. Whoever it was who first came up with the idea, we
donāt know, because so many ripped him/her off that itās become impossible
to tell by now.
The theory basically states that Ultimecia is in fact an older Rinoa.
In other words, after the game ended, a string of events was set into motion,
ultimately leading to Rinoa ending up "becoming" Ultimecia.
This simple idea has been subject to much hate, and much praise too. It seems
you either love it or hate it.
Now, the theory has been argued for by many people, and there are numerous
websites all presenting a case(usually the exact same arguments with a few
nuances here and there), but almost all of the websites and individuals who
stood up for it couldnāt produce a consistent and good set of arguments
supporting their claim. Thus the theory has often been dismissed as
impossible or completely illogical.
However, that is certainly not the case. I will in this section present
everything on the subject which has accumulated over the years. I will
present all "hints" that the R=U theory uses, and also show how the theory is
perfectly possible, in other words that there are no logical contradictions
that arise when you state that Rinoa does in fact equal Ultimecia.
That is all I can do really. Youāll have to decide for yourself if you think
the "hints" presented are strong enough or not. After all, plausibility is
purely opinionated in such a matter, so itās your own choice whether or not
to believe it(because it certainly canāt be proven or disproven).
THE BASIS
The R=U theory is a proposition of what might happen to Rinoa after
a set of assumptions are made. To be precise, those assumptions are:
1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal
human.
2) Rinoa wouldnāt give away her powers to some other innocent girl, and would
instead want to keep them herself.
3) Rinoas mental strength isnāt all that good if sheās all alone(ie. without
Squall and Co).
You may notice that assumptions 2 and 3 are really subsets of a greater
assumption, or rather interpretation of the plot; Rinoas psyche.
Obviously everyone will form an opinion of the main characters psyche during
the game, and this theory is based on an interpretation of Rinoa which makes
assumptions 2 and 3 perfectly logical and plausible. Assumption 1 is
discussed at length later on, so right now weāll assume all assumptions are
correct.
It is quite trivial to see that once the three(or as explained, two)
assumptions are drawn, we can deduce that Rinoa will outlive Squall and all
her friends. They will all die eventually, whether it be of age, illness or
in combat. Rinoa will witness her true love and Knight(Squall) die, as well
as her father and all her other friends, die. They will die and she will not.
I mentioned that Squall is Rinoas knight. Just to remind you what we know
about a sorceress knight:
Edea tells us that a sorceresses Knight is supposed to help maintain the
sorceresses mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure
of the people(remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even
an organisation made solely for killing them!).
Adel for instance, had no Knight, and I donļæ½t think I have to remind you
what kind of a sorceress Adel was!
An example of a good knight, would be Edeas knight, Cid.
So we have a Rinoa, all alone in a world filled with people who generally
want her dead, fear her and hate her, knowing that SeeD still exists to
kill people like her. We have a Rinoa in this scenario, without a Knight.
Based on the aforementioned assumptions, we can now see that Rinoa could very
easily be Ultimecia, driven insane by the grief and pressure, probably
driven to severe paranoia. Eventually, she is so warped that thereās hardly
any trace of the old Rinoa in her. Instead, she is now the evil Ultimecia,
trying to compress time and absorb all sorceress powers and eventually all
time and space itself.
I should add that if Rinoa continued to use GFs after the game ended, her
insanity would doubtlessly be "amplified". GFs are very effective at removing
memory after all. Remember Squall. He had forgotten almost all his childhood
except the strongest memories of Ellone, and heād only used GFs for 4-5
years. Of course this added assumption cannot realistically be backed up by
anything over than personal opinions on what happens after the game, so it
doesnāt really count all that much.
Rinoas insanity could none the less be driven to a point where she had
"become" Ultimecia, basically forgetting about her old self, even forgetting
her love, Squall.
Now, you may ask yourself what "hints" supposedly back up this claim?
Well, here is a compilation of all information which could be considered a
hint. I will also include the alternate explanations preferred by those who
donāt believe the theory.
1) The first hint was provided by Druff from Gamefaqs. Canāt thank you enough
for this one!
"In ancient Greece there was a king named Mausolus and a queen named
Artemisia. When Mausolus died, Artemisia was so grief stricken and devoted
that she made it the rest of her lifeās work to build him the greatest
tomb ever built, which she did. The tomb was so amazing that itās one of
the Seven Wonders of the World, and itās why extravegant tombs are known
as "mausoleums" to this day.
Well, in the Japanese version of FFVIII, Ultimecia is spelled
"arutimishia". Itās entirely possible that her name was intended to be
Artemisia, but the translators mistakenly thought it was supposed to be
Ultimecia, since the spell Ultima is spelled "arutima" in Japanese."
End quote.
Legend also goes that every day, Artemisia would mix some of his ashes into
a drink and thus slowly consume her dead husband. It certainly seems like
Artemisia didnāt handle the loss of her love that well, and she seems to
have gone somewhat insane, what with dedicating the rest of her life to his
tomb and slowly consuming him!
Consider then that Ultimecia is called "Artemisia" in some translations
(German for instance).
In history, Artemisia and Mausolus were also brother and sister. In the
game, Rinoa and Squall are as close to sister and brother as possible
without involving incest, something Square would obviously never do.
Laguna, Squalls father, and Julia, Rinoas mother were deeply in love, yet
were torn apart. Was this Squares way of hinting at a very close
connection, almost sibling-like?
Also in history, Artemisia is attacked while she builds the tomb, yet she,
despite being greatly outnumbered, kills all the attacking enemies.
Ultimecia single-handedly takes out all the SeeDs who attack her.
Is Ultimecia a mistranslation of Artemisia, the grieving widow? Did Rinoa
lose Squall, and become the games Artemisia?
Of course, it may just be coincidence, or perhaps Square was referring to
the spell Ultima(Arutima). Either way itās very interesting.
2) Ultimecias castle is anchored facing the very place where Squall and Rinoa
decided to meet if they lost eachother. Perhaps whatever remained of Rinoa
inside Ultimecia drove her to placing her castle right there.
Alternatively, the Orphanage is the birthplace of SeeD, and since Ultimecia
obviously hates SeeD, it could just as well be a symbolic statement of her
victory over SeeD(well, her apparent victory).
3) The only FMV flash we see of Ultimecia appears flashing over Rinoas face
not once, not twice, but three times in succession during the ending(the
crazy sequence). She appears closer for each flash, and in the third and
final flash, we see Ultimecias piercing eyes staring right at us from Rinoas
face.
Is this hinting towards the future? Perhaps. But alternatively, Edeas face
also flashes over Rinoa once before, although not nearly as dramatically
and effectfully as Ultimecias. And since this is inside a Time warp of some
sort, it would perhaps be wrong to single out any one event as meaningful.
Either way, the three flashes are there.
4) During the ending FMV, it would appear that Rinoas white wings turn black
for a moment. Itās after Ultimecias face flashes, right after the other
major flashing sequence(notably not over Rinoas face, but rather inside an
"opening" in the screen). We see Rinoa falling towards us and briefly it
appears the wings change colour. The only other sorceress we see with wings
is Ultimecia, and her wings are black. Rinoas wings are whiteā¦
A similar scene occurs in the opening FMV, although not to the same extent
(although easier spotted than the one in the final FMV). Rinoa is first
shown amid a whole lot of white feathers, then later on amid black feathers.
Of course, both scenes could merely be indicative of the evil that will
occur in the game, and how she is polluted by sorceress powers and/or how
Ultimecia possesses her.
Still something to think about either way.
5) Rinoa says in the Ragnarok: "I donāt want the future. I want the present
to stand still. I just want to stay here with youā¦" and that Artemisia is
trying to compress time.
Of course, since it would be too strange to think Ultimecia remembered Squall
and all(seeing as she tries to kill him) this canāt really be said to be
indicative. Although it could be perceived as subtle hinting by Square.
6) This is not as of yet proven, but it seems highly likely that it is
correct. This hint is how the japanese FF8 manual describes Rinoa:
"A beautiful and enigmatic woman, kind-hearted and driven to succeed.
A cheerful girl whose āmood makerā liveliness and gentleness touches people
without discrimination. Sheās honest about her feelings and readily speaks
what she thinks. However, in time she ends up becoming warpedā¦"
Itās obviously that last line which is of interest here, and it speaks for
itself really.
This is part of the original text
1) Why do you say that a Sorceress has prolonged lifespan?
āāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāā
A Sorceress can be killed like a human.
This is a fact, seeing as you kill two Sorceresses and attempt to kill a
third. Another way of demonstrating this is to realize that it was a
Sorceress that created Seed. SeeD was created to kill any Sorceress who
goes evil. Surely, if a Sorceress was plain out immortal, why bother? And
a Sorceress would know whether or not sorceresses are immortal or not,
surely!
However, what if a sorceress cannot die while she has her powers?
Letļæ½s change our attention to a line uttered by Edea in the ending. A line
so easily forgotten and overlooked, yet so crucial to this theory:
"In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her
powers".
What is the opposite of dying in peace? Not dying in peace, obviously but
what does that entail?
If dying in peace is normally, what is the opposite of dying in peace? Not
dying normally? What does that mean?
Surely, it is possible that ļæ½not dying in peaceļæ½ could mean that the
sorceress was still alive, just not ļæ½properlyļæ½.
You could think of a sorceress being inflicted with a mortal wound, yet
unable to die. We even have a source who has played the Japanese game who
says that in the Japanese version, Edea actually says "A sorceress cannot
die while she has her powers". For those of you who doubt this, here is a
copy of his post after I asked him what Edea said in the ending:
NOTE: I never made a note of his username, and the topic he posted in
dissapeared ages ago, so I cannot credit a name here. If anyone knows
who it was, please contact me.
āā
"During the final battle, right before Ultimecia summons Griever:
Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.
After fighting Griever for a while:
Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GFās true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!
After thatā¦
Ultimecia: The introductions are over! Now, I shall junction myself to
Griever!
Thatās all that has directly to do with everyoneās favourite
lion/ring/necklace/insignia/commercial goldmine. Now, on to Edea!
Edea: Excuse me, did a little boy come this way?
Squall: You donāt need to worry, itāll be okay. In the end, that kid canāt
go anywhere.
Edea: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel so sorry for him, but thereās
nothing that can be done.
(Ultimecia appears)
Squall: ā¦.Sheās still alive?!
Edea: ā¦A sorceress, is it?
Squall: Yes, Mama Sensei [so much more amusing than "Matron"]. Though I
was sure we had already defeated herā¦. step back please.
Edea: Itās all right. There is no further need to fight. That sorceress is
only seeking someone who will succeed her sorceressā power. A sorceress
cannot die while still holding on to the sorceressā power. I, tooā¦. am a
sorceress, so I understand. I shall take on this sorceressā power. I donāt
want a child to become a sorceress.
Sorceress Ultimecia: I cannot yetā¦ allow myself toā¦.fade away.
Squall: Mama Sensei!
Edea: Is itā¦ over now I wonder?
Squall: Perhaps.
Edea: You called me "Mama Sensei." Who are you?
Squall: SeeD. A SeeD of Balamb Garden.
Edea: SeeD? Garden?
Squall: Mama Sensei thought up both SeeD and Garden. Garden raises SeeDs.
SeeDs defeat the sorceress.
Edea: What are you talking about? You areā¦ that childās future, arenāt
you?
Squall: ā¦. Mama Sensei.
Edea: So, please go home. This isnāt your place.
Childhood Squall: ā¦.. Sis is gone. Am I all alone? Whoās heeeeee?
Edea: It doesnāt concern you. Itās better if you donāt know anything.
Youāre the only Squall for whom it is all right to stay here. Do you know
how to get back? Are you okay on your own?
It seems that a little bit of clarification on Ultimeciaās final line is in
order, for the general edification of the world. Heh heh. The verb that is
used in the Japanese is "kieru," which can mean to fade, to disappear, to
vanish, to dissolve, to cease being or to be extinguished, and can be used
as a euphemism for "to die." I really should have provided a note on that,
in order to elucidate what would otherwise simply have passed by unknown.
Now, to insert my own thoughts in this little matter; I shall say from the
top that I am of the mind that Sorceresses have a limited lifespan, and
are, therefore, subject to death, as any other human would be. Edeaās line
of "A sorceress cannot die while still a sorceress is immortal as long as
she has her power, or that she cannot "rest in peace," as it were, until
her powers are given to another candidate. Ultimecia doesnāt WANT
to die; that much is evident in her words. Sheās telling herself that she
canāt die like this, and the way she phrases it, in Japanese, is in the
form of a sort of "proprietary imperative" (I am not a linguist, so the
proper jargon is something with which I am not entirely familiar. If
anyone who is familiar with Japanese linguistics and the classifying
terminology should read this, feel free to instruct): taken at COMPLETE
literal value (i.e. if one were to translate it word-for-word into
English), one would get "Stillā¦ disappearing mannerā¦. to it one must
not go." Ugly as it is when ascribed according English semantic terms,
itās a fairly common sentential construction in Japanese which expresses
the fitness (or lack thereof) of a given action.
Whoa, that was a digression. Shoot me.
Anyway, the implication seems to be that Ultimecia is not willingly
abandoning her powers, but rather, her body is goading her to proffer them
up unto someone else, so that it can do the natural thing and expire.
I would imagine, and this is pure supposition, that a sorceress who has
been ostensibly "killed" yet is unable to give up her power would suffer
tremendous pain; her body wants to die, and *is* dying, but cannot seek
the grave until it is free of that which Hyne bequeathed.ļæ½
END QUOTE.
āā
Does this source strike you as bad? Feel free to try and find an equally
convincing source, but I am quite convinced by this.
As long as a sorceress has her powers she cannot die. It seems that when a
sorceress is ākilledā, she gives away her powers simply because of how
painful it would be to be frozen in the dying moment forever.
Note that this doesnļæ½t prove sorceress lifespan as being prolonged because
we donļæ½t know if a sorceress could ādieā in body from old age or not. But
weļæ½ll return to that later.
We shall now examine other ingame events relevant to sorceress
immortality:
When Adel is captured, a great effort is made to have her sealed, and not
killed. The sorceress who has waged war on the world for years, who has
murdered countless people, hated by everyone including her country, is not
killed. She is sealed in space.
Well, the second of the two propositions given above tells us that they
didnļæ½t kill Adel because that would mean a new Sorceress anyway!
Why let some other poor woman suffer the consequences of becoming a
Sorceress, when they could instead shoot her up in space, confining her
powers ļæ½foreverļæ½. Whilst doing this, research could be done on Adel too,
so as to help defeat any new Sorceress. One hint at this is the Odines
Bangle. It seems too complex for Odine to have constructed it without
research from a Sorceress. And just look at the space station. It seems
hard to think that they are doing nothing but check the locks!
Of course, if the lifespan theory is not true, there are still motives
that can explain why they chose not to kill her.
Lagunas goodness could be an explanation. Research could be another. Both
of them combined could give a good motive for shooting her up in space
instead of just killing her. Some say it is because they couldnļæ½t kill
her, but that doesnļæ½t sound plausible. Consider that Adel needed "days" to
wake up properly from her sleep, and if they were to kill her, they could
turn off the seal, run in and kill her easily before she had even begun to
open her eyes!
Finally, one may ask why Adel, Edea and Ultimecia gave up their powers
although the lifespan theory means they can live forever.
Edea is simple. Since Edea was not in control of her body, we can assume
that it was Ultimecia who gave up her powers. Now, a completely broken
Edea would be of no use to Ultimecia, while a fresh and "rookie"
sorceress would be much more useful, so that is perfectly plausible.
Both Adel and Ultimecia can be explained in terms of the pain the body is in
when frozen in the dying moment. I doubt even a sorceress could handle that
much pain for too long.
So until a more convincing source comes along, we can prove sorceress
immortality, and show how it makes perfect sense in the storyline, but we
cannot prove prolonged lifespan. Here Hyne enters the picture.
Remember in the story about him, he creates a few men and women for slaves,
takes a nap, and then wakes up and finds them to have grown beyond his
control. That means his nap lasted for anything from a few hundred years
to several thousand years, plenty of evidence that he in any case had
prolonged life, and any sorceress after him could have inherited some, if
not all of that gift.
This is also more of the text
Yeah i think soā¦ but guess what there is also another thing talkin about that in the site, the guy planned everything, but he relys much on preposition
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt
I just realized something, the guy doesnāt know how to respond to your arguments without presuming
Yeah i think soā¦ but guess what there is also another thing talkin about that in the site, the guy planned everything, but he relys much on preposition
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt
I just realized something, the guy doesnāt know how to respond to your arguments without presuming
Your link doesnāt work š
This one works i think
forget it doesnāt š
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html
Use this one and then try to find the right faq
itās Time/ Ultimecia plot Faq
This one works i think
forget it doesnāt š
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html
Use this one and then try to find the right faq
itās Time/ Ultimecia plot Faq
I know it is. I read it. And my reply to this isā¦
They donāt make sense. They create stupid theories. They canāt even fully support their theories.
I am starting to believe what most people will say. Especially avid FFVIII players.
I thought it was dumb. Some facts made sense, but it doesnāt really supports the theory at all.
Yes, I know.
Itās important for people who think that Rinoa is Ultimecia.
Because itās stupid, senseless and false.
1. Thereās no guarantee Ultimecia even remembered anything about her distant past.
2. Her motives and objectives were never clarified in the game.
1. Thereās no guarantee Ultimecia even remembered anything about her distant past.
2. Her motives and objectives were never clarified in the game.
It was clarified. If you will remember the things they are saying in the game, especially Dr. Odine in Esthar, he said that Ultimecia clearly wants to take over the world using Time Compression. They clarified Ultimeciaās objective in the game somewhere at this point when the party was in Esthar.
So youāre saying that Ultimecia wasnāt really sure why she would compress time? Are you saying that she has no objective, for real, in why she is to use Time Compression? Are you saying she just did that for nothing? It was never clarified?
Iām saying the game never delivered a first-hand account from Ultimecia. The only explanations the game gave were from characters who were pretty much guessing about her intentions. She certainly had a reason, but weāre not privy to her precise motivations.
Iām saying the game never delivered a first-hand account from Ultimecia. The only explanations the game gave were from characters who were pretty much guessing about her intentions. She certainly had a reason, but weāre not privy to her precise motivations.
Okay, I get your point. But mostly, in the game, Ultimeciaās objective is to take over the world, and thatās what I know.
Iām not surrendering. Iām just saying what Iāve got to say in this topic.
With your previous post, you basically said, "Youāre right, but Iām going to stick to my original point even though you proved it to have more holes than can be counted on the collective fingers of a small country."
With your previous post, you basically said, "Youāre right, but Iām going to stick to my original point even though you proved it to have more holes than can be counted on the collective fingers of a small country."
OH MAN, PRAK.
Have you heard the meaning of opinions?
Oh really? Donāt you think that debates are mostly about the opinions of people? They argue about it. They argue about their opinions and stand to it.
You can believe what you like, but you were beaten in the debate and youāre refusing to accept that graciously. Simply saying, "Youāre probably right, but Iāll continue to believe what I like," would be a perfectly acceptable way to bow out.
Not that I even care because this issue means absolutely nothing to me in the first place.
You can believe what you like, but you were beaten in the debate and youāre refusing to accept that graciously. Simply saying, "Youāre probably right, but Iāll continue to believe what I like," would be a perfectly acceptable way to bow out.
Not that I even care because this issue means absolutely nothing to me in the first place.
Then whyād you post in this thread? If this shit means nothing to you.
It was never about the theory. It was about you people and your kneejerk reactions.
One of the better theories ffs ever hadā¦
It was never about the theory. It was about you people and your kneejerk reactions.
Then why is the title "Rinoa= Ultimecia?" If this was about our "kneejerk reactions" then how come itās not titled as "Kneejerk Reactions?"
So youāre posting to counter other peopleās reactions? Just because you find them stupid?
Iām trying to encourage you people to think about things before you post. Exercise common sense. Iām doing it for your own good!
Iām trying to encourage you people to think about things before you post. Exercise common sense. Iām doing it for your own good!
But your mind is not perfect. You donāt knowā¦ what if youāre the only one thinking that itās dumb?
Rinoaā¦ā¦it`s dumb!! now stop.
I beg to differ.
š
:whatever:
Although by the end i think that future is no longer an issue.
hhmmā¦Did she, i think i remember it.
But if Ultimacia was Rinoa it wouldn`t be a 2-dimensional last boss anymore,plus it would make a lot of sense.
Anyway, i can`t realy comment, i kinda forget some of the game.Especially the part with Ultimacia.
That was her sorcerer form.
That was her sorcerer form.
Oh yeah, sorry, it totaly slipped mind.
But maybe ultimacia is her true soccerer form.
Ultimecia has GREEN eyes
ā¦andā¦
Rinoa has very DARK BROWN eyes
No, actually itās one of the best, just tell me why Rinoa would have gotten an accent in the future ??
because if Ultimecia really is Rinoa (what I donāt believe) why on earth would Ultimecia have an accent, thatās the part that doesnāt make sence
Anyway, the game stated that Ultimecia was from a far flung future and when you achieve time compression in the game you have to go through many sorceress chicks to get to her and these woman are stated to be ones from the future and past. In my opinion Rinoa was too far back in history to be Ultimecia. As far as her scheme to compress time, Laguna said she wanted mastery of all time. Who wouldnāt? It would mean you would never die.
remember when Ultimecia took over Rinoaās body? That has major inplications.. Why would she need Rinoaās powers if she was already Rinoa??
The sorceress are the sorceress from all time, meaning they can be also from the past
umā¦why not? It IS the future isn`t it. Sorry to read into too much but an accent could have be developed.
okay, fair enough, since she is evil you could also say that her eye colour changed BUT here is another reason why this theory isnāt true, she fights Rinoa, she even kills Rinoa if she has too, that would mean that she would kill herself too, because if Rinoa doesnāt exists in the past the future Rinoa (Ultimecia would also disappear) and she didnāt even talk to Rinoa, she didnāt even know that Rinoa wasnāt a SeeD, she called them all SeeDs, I would think that I would say something to my good past person, wouldnāt you ?! and also, there wasnāt one hint in the entire game that would make you think that Rinoa is Ultimecia, as said before, it doesnļæ½t make sense
oh one more thing, Edea was Ultimecia in the past, she was possessed remember, there she also didnāt talk to Rinoa, and again tried to kill her, Rinoa would have died if it wasnāt for Irvine and Squall
well if you put it like that I can say anything I want, my argument will just be thrown out the window, but that doesnāt matter because you can discuss this until the end of time lol, you still wonāt get an answer, well maybe if there is a sequel in the future :p
oh one more thing, Edea was Ultimecia in the past, she was possessed remember, there she also didnāt talk to Rinoa, and again tried to kill her, Rinoa would have died if it wasnāt for Irvine and Squall
I agree and in the final battle Rinoa can die, if she was Ultimecia she whouldnāt dieā¦
Its all just theory, things often work different in practice.
And remember it IS a fantasy game, The story writer makes the rules.
Besides isnāt there a law that matter cannot just dissapear? so Ultimecia killing herself (if Rinoa is Ultimacia) wouldnāt make her just dissapear, would it?
Itās probably just something square intended to make us fans discuss years on.
It seems that there plan is working! =)
Well, after some researching, this particular outlook on quantum theory says no:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4097258.stm
To summarize this article I linked in the post, the new outlook on time travel theorizes that, if traveling to the past (as Ultimecia has done in the FF8 storyline), one cannot directly affect its events by killing off people who are *alive* in the travelerās present, no matter how much they try:
"Researchers speculate that time travel can occur within a kind of feedback loop where backwards movement is possible, but only in a way that is "complementary" to the present.
In other words, you can pop back in time and have a look around, but you cannot do anything that will alter the present you left behindā¦
According to Einstein, space-time can curve back on itself, theoretically allowing travellers to double back and meet younger versions of themselves.
And now a team of physicists from the US and Austria says this situation can only be the case if there are physical constraints acting to protect the present from changes in the past.
The researchers say these constraints exist because of the weird laws of quantum mechanics even though, traditionally, they donāt account for a backwards movement in time.
Quantum behaviour is governed by probabilities. Before something has actually been observed, there are a number of possibilities regarding its state. But once its state has been measured those possibilities shrink to one ā uncertainty is eliminated.
So, if you know the present, you cannot change it. If, for example, you know your father is alive today, the laws of the quantum universe state that there is no possibility of him being killed in the past.
It is as if, in some strange way, the present takes account of all the possible routes back into the past and, because your father is certainly alive, none of the routes back can possibly lead to his death.
In other words, even if you take a trip back in time with the specific intention of killing your father, so long as you know he is happily sitting in his chair when you leave him in the present, you can be sure that something will prevent you from murdering him in the past. It is as if it has already happened.
"You go back to kill your father, but youād arrive after heād left the room, you wouldnāt find him, or youād change your mind," said Professor Greenberger.
"You wouldnāt be able to kill him because the very fact that he is alive today is going to conspire against you so that youāll never end up taking that path leads you to killing him."
Basically, this theory explains that although Ultimecia (if we are willing to believe the theory that she is the future Rinoa) tried to kill Rinoa and her companions several times throughout the storyline, the fact is she ultimately did not. Looking back, Rinoa has suffered many experiences rendering her near-death throughout the game as well as with her companionsā¦yet she lived, even when pitted against Ultimecia. According to this quantum theory and speculation, I believe that Rinoa could not have died throughout the storyline of the game itself regardless of what Ultimecia did, BECAUSE Ultimeciaās present (Rinoaās future) has already been set into place, and since Rinoa lives to become her, she cannot die, as her path is already set.
Congratulations! Youāre one of the few newbies that actually revive a topic to post something that will most likely get people to start talking about it again. But then again, if Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, then Rinoa must have Lady Luck on her side because she just seemed to NOT DIE!
I always found quantum physics interesting but never really thought about applying it to this theory. But if the theory is true, then the reason why her attempts at killing the others off failed is stated clearly through quantum theory.
1. Ultimecia is form the future how fair we dont know but say riona was a greate sorrceriss say she went dount as a good kind one or a vary strong leader Ultimecia would thenw anna kill ehr and make sure there was no one to challage her power Ultimecia may have gottin ehr powers form rinoa becuase rinoa was ready to die and join her loved one like squall and others
2. Ultimecia ises the gf form the neckless and the ring well most good villians allwasy try to kill the herso with there strognest weapons so maybe in the future rion and squall awakin the loinheart and it is a vary pwoerfull gf for them so in Ultimecia time she gets that gf and then goes after them with it knowing it might help her out
3. Ultimecia knew about seed so what bette rinsult than when she thought she ahd it all in contral than to palce ehr caslte at seed`s birthplace
see a lot of Ultimecia=rinoa debates can besolved by looking at the way msot good villians are what we realy ened to settle this is a time line and how formf rom the future Ultimecia real is
sorry i know i am trying to prove soemthing with the normal fanboy reponses but i relay dont belive Rinoa is Ultimecia
I agree with others that there are some loopholes in it, but nevertheless there is some suggestive evidence that it could be true. One thing in particular that always baffled me in the game was the mention of Griever on Squallās ring and Ultimeciaās ability to summon it. I suppose I wrote it off as Griever being a guardian force that was known to the world and Squall simply had a ring made of it for kicks since he "liked" it, but that seemed a little cheesy. This theory would provide a much more likeable explanation of it. And the other hints, such as the castle being built where they made their promise, and the explanation of how Ultimecia knew about Ellone (though that doesnāt quite work with the amnesia theory.)
But didnāt Rinoa simply receive a copy of Squallās ring? How could that ring then become a tool to summon Griever in the future if she is indeed Ultimecia? Or how could she have acquired Griever in the first place since Squall did not have it?
FF8 had an excellent combination of a thorough enough story to fully explain it, but enough mystery left to keep people guessing about some of the finer points. Itās nice to be able to theorize about things like this, and I must say, if itās actually true, I have to give the gameās creators far more credit than I initially had with the story. (Not to say that I didnāt already love it.)
1. Ultimecia is form the future how fair we dont know but say riona was a greate sorrceriss say she went dount as a good kind one or a vary strong leader Ultimecia would thenw anna kill ehr and make sure there was no one to challage her power Ultimecia may have gottin ehr powers form rinoa becuase rinoa was ready to die and join her loved one like squall and others
2. Ultimecia ises the gf form the neckless and the ring well most good villians allwasy try to kill the herso with there strognest weapons so maybe in the future rion and squall awakin the loinheart and it is a vary pwoerfull gf for them so in Ultimecia time she gets that gf and then goes after them with it knowing it might help her out
3. Ultimecia knew about seed so what bette rinsult than when she thought she ahd it all in contral than to palce ehr caslte at seed`s birthplace
see a lot of Ultimecia=rinoa debates can besolved by looking at the way msot good villians are what we realy ened to settle this is a time line and how formf rom the future Ultimecia real is
sorry i know i am trying to prove soemthing with the normal fanboy reponses but i relay dont belive Rinoa is Ultimecia
I know you have that learning disability, but tell me why wonāt you correct your mistakes? I canāt even get passed the third word and donāt feel like trying anymore.
I donāt believe Rinoa is Ultimecia personally. If she was, square would have put the fact right in your face, somehow- maybe with an fmv/cg. As it would have a massive difference to the story.
(Sorry, thatās the best i could come up with).
they explaned that ā¦.
So I like to believe that theyāre one and the same, purely for that reason.
In the game though, didnāt everyone agree that they would write about important memories so they wouldnāt forget who they were and they could look back on that? Rinoa probably wrote in her diary which meant she would still know who she was and she wouldnāt be Ultimacia.
yea i rember them bringing that up
They wrote important memories so they could not forget about itā¦
Where is it? Edeaās House, if I remembered.
They wrote important memories so they could not forget about itā¦
Where is it? Edeaās House, if I remembered.
It was in the basketball court of that one Garden Selphie used to go to on Disc 2. Thatās where they all agreed to it.
By the way, Rinoa is not originally Ultimecia, if you recall.
The real Ultimecia is Adel and Edea.
Rinoa become a vessel of Ultimecia when Edea is defeated
That time, Squall said she turned very "cold", remember that?
I could still imaging how Squall hits the wall just come near her when he follows Rinoa (she already possessed and walks a bit strangely)
Rinoa become a vessel of Ultimecia when Edea is defeated
That time, Squall said she turned very "cold", remember that?
I could still imaging how Squall hits the wall just come near her when he follows Rinoa (she already possessed and walks a bit strangely)
Edea was allso posseds by Ultimecia though Ultimecia is her own person she posses others of the past to try to steal there powers or sue them to make her goals work
The time compression makes Ultimeciaās influence off her.
For a proof, we could use Rinoa in the party when we fight Ultimecia.
Itās a small detail, though.
It is before the ending movie, when Squall meet the younger Edea.
That is such a reminiscence.
The last time I played the game is 3 years agoā¦
Manā¦ perhaps it is time for me to go offline.
Letās put this thing to bed, already.
You have to remember, this all happened in the past. Ultemicia has no idea that she was the one that made Edea into a sorceress because sheās doing all of this from the future. All she knows is that Edea is a sorceress and decided to bring her under her control to find and capture Ellone. And everyone knows Elloneās special ability. Thatās why, when Edeaās accidentally transfered some of her powers to Rinoa, Rinoa was under Ultemiciaās control and "unlocked" Adelās cell. Because Adel was supposedly the most feared sorceress of all time, Ultemicia wanted control over her because their combined powers would beā¦wellā¦horrifying. The she wanted Ellone to send her farther back in time when Adel was still in her prime so she can rule this time. I canāt remember if there was a reason to that or just to simply be in charge. This doesnāt seem to prove or not prove the whole R=U theory does it. And people know (not sure how reality goes) that when powerful magical people give in, they lose themselves more and more as their powers grow. This will clear some cloudy heads about why she would want to attack Rinoa if they believe the theory, or it wonāt because they could be entirely different people.
And I think itās time for me to retire because I have work at 7AM and its 3:56AM right now and can barely remember what I just typed.
That would only say that history just keeps repeating itself. When Rinoa grows up in the present, Rinoa from the past will kill her. Time would take over from that point because Ultimecia will only be written in the history books from then on.
Very good.
He kept saying all these nasty things then heās say something totally different and so I just asked him why. He said he was bored so I told him to go and post different things rather than what he was posting. It was pretty annoying really.
He got banned?
Whaā¦.?
I think they are not similar each other.
I need you guys to help me here, please.
http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?p=844397&posted=1#post844397
You analyze them THAT far???
As I said, Iām not sure about that because I DONāT know. Otherwise, I wouldāve said that they look like they are.
But still, do you think itās just coincidence or that it does mean something?
But still, do you think itās just coincidence or that it does mean something?
Nope
100% pure coincidence
In the year of 2000 and before, Squaresoft only masters that kind of character-styling.
Until the graphical revolution of FF IX and FF transmigration to PS 2, it isā¦
I heard that Ultimecia was Rinoa, at first i didnāt want to believe it but then some things made sense
1- Rinoa Didnāt want to give her powers to some little girl, so she kept them.
2- Since a sorceress lives longer than the average human, she would live longer, and all her friends would die, including Squall, that may led her to be alone.
3- Since a knight serves to protect the sanity of a sorceress and helps her to not feel lonely ( Edea explains that when you go there with Rinoa on disc 3, before entering the garden when Squall makes his promise)
4- Since she uses a GF, she will with time forget all about his friends, and since she is a sorceress she will be hated by some, leading her to become violent
5- Her GF is Grievert and what is on Squallās ring? And in the game the ring is creating bonds between Squall and Rinoa
6- In the Final Fmv, thereās a part when Rinoaās wings turn black, and the eyes of Ultimecia appear every once in a while, this part iām not so sureā¦
7 ā Maybe sheās tryin to achieve time compression to change something ā Siabout her past, preventing her friends to die, or to pass her powers.
8- Since she is with the party she knows what Elloneās powers are capable to do, so she will watch closely to what happens to Ellone or to Dr Odineās machine
Well this is just a Theory but what do you think? And also i apologize to every Squall+ Rinoaās fans who want an happy ending.
Once again sorry for the Spoilers
LOL.
And Cloud was actually Sephiroth.
I agree with the points made from the original poster, they make sense.. ultimecia seemed to be an off stage villian from the start who only wanted to take over the world with time, and only that.. if that was a movie it would be a B rating conflict. Add the main chick being the main villian with noticeable connections but so minor that the FFVIII players were split on if they were one in the same or not.. makes for a great open never ending discussion.
I just think there has to be more to Ultimecia then just wanting to go back in time and take over the world.. big woop.
Anyway, this sbject has seen no reactions for quite some time, and I`m surprised about that. As soon I found out about this Rinoa=Ultimecia thing, I was extremly intrigued by it (3 days ago). How didn`t I seen it before, in a game that has been a part of almost half of my life. I guess that is why so many people react to it so aggressively.
I don`t now wether it was mentioned before on this forum, but there is something about the linguistic aspect of this theory. Namely, Ultimecia is writen in japanese version of the game as Arutemishia, which is also used in japanese for queen Artemisia.
Queen Artemisia had a husband AND a brother, king Mausolos (rings a bell?). He died young, and she lived on. In his honor and love, she erected the most beautiful tomb the world of antic Mediteranian has ever seen ā one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus.
She is also known for drinking her late husbands ashes every day (which sugests her falling into despair) for two years.
This alone is interesting enough, BUT, I went to Wiki to see some other stuff about it, and found something I didn`t expect. The symbol of king Mausolos wasā¦ a lion. It is found on the face of the coins used during his reign, and also, ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING STATUES from the tomb Artemisia had had built is that of a lionā¦
A hint? An answer? Please, I would like to read some more opinions on this. If it somehow turns out to be true, than I`ll know that I`ve been playing (and will play) one of the best games ever made.
As for the topic, Iāve said it before in an R=U thread, and I still think this way, so Iāll say it again. Unfortunately for Squall of SeeD, who wrote a novella on the topic in an ancient thread (use the forumās search feature, top-right of the screen), the R=U theory is bunk simply because it follows circular reasoning. (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning) In short, the R=U crowd presupposes that Rinoa is Ultimecia when they look at the facts. When you do that, many things take on new meaning, but it ultimately proves nothing, as youāve already assumed what the facts are supposed to prove. To quote the Wiki article I linked, "In other words, the argument fails to prove anything because it applies what it is supposed to prove as fact."
The topic R=U sounds really interesting, but it is true ā it has been concieved in our little brains with no motive or real proof whatsoever. Even now new questiones bump into my mind.
Final Fantasy is one of the worlds greatest game series. If so, why would the main vilain of its 8th incarnation be so stereotypical andā¦ boring? Why, after the unremembered success of FF7 and its groundbreaking vilain, Sephiroth, would it turn out like this? I guess all our hypothesis` are all just a big lie and Final Fantasy VIII is just another game that is fun to play, not to enjoy its uniqueness in an industry that has not seen so many special titlesā¦
People drawed this question hoping that they will get an answer from the game`s creators. I will probably not rest untill I get a definite proof of corectness or incorectness of this theory. What is true, though, is that so far I have not seen neither!
So people, let`s get tingled in logical paradoxes for a while longer! :smrt:
So this is just my final say: I donāt believe Rinoa is Ultimecia.
R=U is about as logically sound as Paul is dead, really.
1. the plot makes more sense if rinoa is ultimecia, it gives her a motive, she wanted to be with squall forever (remember how she said she wanted time to stop?) so she compressed time to meet him again. Was that crap about her wanting him to kill her if she was evil just put there for jokes? No, it was a foreshadowing. Thats how plot devices work baby.
2. there are plenty of hints that they are, no facts that she isnāt all these things that "disprove" theories give no proof of their own that Ulti ISNāT Rinoa. Seeing as the Rinoa theory makes more sense, surely thats the one we should lean to?
3. Its true that there isnt much clue to them being the same person. If it really was a plot device they wouldāve made it more obvious, at least on the same level of Laguna being Squalls father (why did so many people not realise this by the way?). Chances are they were GOING to put it in the plot but took it out in the last minute because they thought it was too depressing/complicated.
When you think about it, youāve just killed the main heroine. AND you know she sheās lived thousands of years of misery after Squall has died. Thats pretty depressing, I can see why Square wouldāve decided to have taken it out.
Thats my interpretation. Rinoa IS definitely Ultimecia because the plot only makes sense if it is so, it ties in all the themes of love and time and places shared yadda yadda. BUT there are no clues to it being FACT because square watered the plot down somewhere along the line. Chances are what they did was they just took out one big scene where ultimecia said it (probably at the end when you beat her final form) but couldnāt be arsed to take out all the little hints which people found.
Oh, and before guys say "oh youāre reading into hints because of what you already think"
well ermā¦ thats how stories work. You reread a book and you see little clues and foreshadowings and think "OOOH So THATS what that meant". A lot of coincidences dont make sense without the explanation. You can rationalise the fact that the castle happened to be waiting at exactly the same spot Rinoa said she would always wait for squall, or the fact that she said she wanted time to stop, or that she created a GF out of his memory, or the fact that ultimecias face is superimposed onto her one in the final FMV, or the fact that Ultimecia went back to the orphanage when she was dying during the time compression (think of any place important to you if you want to end up somewhere during compressed time? it looks like she overshot by a few years though), or that she knew about ellone and her powers (I find it hard to believe ellones powers became common knowledge, very few people knew about it during the game, and Laguna wouldnāt allow it to get publicised cāmon), or that she has a gold lion on top of her throne, or that her damned GF is a lion, or that crap about sorceresses going crazy without their knights and Rinoa would eventually lose her knight cos yes they DO live longer than normal people (otherwise Edea must use some awesome beauty cream, and give it to her husband who looks like hes 50, and dont get me started on how old Adel is, how old does she look? not one wrinkle on her, but how long has she ruled Esthar?). When you put them together. Its just too much.
Her motives were never given. Loads of characters in the game speculated that she was just crazy or evil. All ultimecia said was "Kurse all SeeDs" rightly so! Theyāve been trying to kill her and her kind of generations. And that she wants people to reflect on their pasts because blah blah blah. Sheās probably filled with spite and hate, I dont blame her.
EDIT: Sorry for the bump, I was just searching for "Ultimecia is Rinoa" on google after being intruiged by playing the game again
Chances are they were GOING to put it in the plot but took it out in the last minute because they thought it was too depressing/complicated.
Lieutenant Dan has more legs than that argument. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing what Squeenixās intentions were. Claiming as much is shenanigans at best.
well ermā¦ thats how stories work. You reread a book and you see little clues and foreshadowings and think "OOOH So THATS what that meant".
Well ermā¦ no. The climax and/or ending of a well-written story illuminate the ālittle clues and foreshadowings,ā if you actually pay attention. If you have to insert your own conclusions to make a story make sense, then you either missed the boat entirely or the story failed entirely.
or that she has a gold lion on top of her throne, or that her damned GF is a lion, or that crap about sorceresses going crazy without their knights and Rinoa would eventually lose her knight cos yes they DO live longer than normal people
Seeing as Ultimecia can "reach" into the past to possess other sorceresses, she very easily couldāve seen Squallās lion stuff and did all that just to screw with him. Also, I never saw any actual proof of sorceressās longevity or their (in)sanity without their knights.
EDIT: Sorry for the bump, I was just searching for "Ultimecia is Rinoa" on google after being intruiged by playing the game again
āTis far better to post in a week-old topic than to start a new thread that would only get closed post haste.
OK! I didn`t quite get that circular reasoning stuff, but (in case I did) I think you are doing exactly the same thing. You say she COULD HAVE seen Squallā¦ That is not sufficient! ā¦Good point on the lack of proof about the sorceress`s longevity and insanity, though.
We do not know enough from the game, which leaves us musing on subjects like this. The only way to get some answers is from the makers themselves (WE MUST TURN TO THE MAKERS!). And, knowing most big, evil corporations, Square-Enix will only tell people off.
I think there are pretty good arguments among this stuff here that everyone writes. Sceptics should probably play the game once with those arguments on mind, and leave behind most of the stuff that have engraved in their minds throughout the years of FF8 consuming (just as I have š ).
I would like to ask a question to all sceptics out there. What was the 1st thing that has crossed your mind when you first heard of this Ultimecia=Rinoa theory?
"maybe she just made it a lion to fuck with squall"
thats possible but it doesnāt make as much (and isnāt as cool) as her just being rinoa who has long since become obsessed with squall since his death.
As for you saying I missed the boat or the story failed
well
the story DID fail
Ultimecia didnāt make any sense. But she does if you add this missing jigsaw puzzle. I maintain it was meant to be there but they just took it out at the last second
"Heh, bullshit."
But the biggest problem with your argument is the extreme amount of speculation it involves. To say that the way it fits into the plot, even though it isnāt explicitly stated, shows that Square meant to include it but edited it out is a bit of a stretch. Be careful when you say something like that; do you really think the game designers came up with the whole plot and then just hastily said "Whoops! That ending is depressing. Letās just take out the reveal at the end and have the plot make no sense"?
If they had included a statement of the plot device, then such analyses of the plot would be very appropriate, but the truth of the matter is that Ultimecia could very possibly just be another sorceress, and the fact that they donāt have a big reveal at the end essentially proves that.
About the Griever point, I interpreted Griever to be a powerful entity that was embodied by Squallās ring; the most obvious clue to this is that the ring refills the life support on Rinoaās spacesuit. And if Griever is a separate entity, there are many possible explanations as to why Ultimecia uses him, but most likely he was just the most powerful GF, so she picked him to gain more power.
And if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why didnāt she just forget about Squall because of junctioning GFs? Heh, you have to remember that FFVIII is completely full of plot holes because it uses a cheap, contrived plot device like that and because of the time travel/compression. Rinoa is Ultimecia is completely full of temporal paradoxes; Iāll point some out if you insist.
Yeah, youāre giving them way too much credit, heavily marketed franchises such as disney movies or final fantasy games will be raped by the editors to hell to make it more palatable to the public.
I just think the R=U argument makes more sense than the alternative, it really does. You can come up with explanations for many of the examples I gave, like greiver, why the castle is at the orphanage etc. But when there are SO many it becomes more than a coincidence that one is just looking too deep in to.
EDIT:
cos lets face it. In the end, the plot makes no sense without the R=U theory but makes lots of sense with it Its a jigsaw puzzle that fits much better than the shitty plot hole that we were given. The enlish literature student in me just cant let this thematic fallacy go. It wouldāve been GREAT with that plot point.
Being able to tie together loads of themes and occurances is much better than giving an arbitrary explanation for every single one (which people do for every R=U argument). If they tie together, surely its more likely, than something which makes no significance to the plot
"well maybe the castle is at the orphanage because thats where she parked it when fighting SeeDs"
well yeah MAYBE. But why? It seems pretty important that its at SUCH a significant place in the plot, EXACTLY where Rinoa said sheād always be waiting for squall. Am I really looking for something that isnāt there? I dont think so, there MUST be some sort of significance to something like that When you have a scene where Rinoa says she will be waiting for squall at the place and she wants time to stop. And then you have a character who is waiting exactly at that spot AND wants to compress time. ALSO she said she wants squall to kill him if she turns evil. OH SHI- thats exactly what happens to Ultimecia.
The argument of "well howcome ultimecia doesnāt die if she kills rinoa in the final battle" is the stupidest argument ever. We are to assume in the official plot Rinoa is not killed by Ultimecia, anyway as far as I know she doesnāt kill her opponents, she knocks them out and then absorbs them into time (to make them her slaves for eternity)
Hey, yeah, maybe that lion was there to psyche squall out
OR
OR
lets choose something that makes sense. Ultimecia has a thing for lions, the main characters second name is lion hearts and he has a lion ring and his coat resembles a lions mane and etc etc etc.
EDIT 2:
Ahem, the mass at which I am writing this implies I care about this with all my heart but actually I type really fast. Iām writing up a feature article and and killing brain time inbetween lack of ideasā¦
I`m not so sure what do yo mean with Rinoa not forgeting about Squall because of junctioning GFsā¦ Not all memories are wiped out when using GFs. You know how Squall forgot about the entire orphanage, but only had partial memories of Ellone?
Anyway, it is useless to go in to those temporal thingimajigs that you were talking about, because there are many theories of how a time travel works, soā¦
Oh, if only that were trueā¦
You fail completely. First, you completely misunderstand the concept of circular reasoning. Second, you didnāt put any real facts forward. Third, given the lack of facts in the matter, any remotely plausible explanation is just as, well, plausible as the R=U theories.
"maybe she just made it a lion to fuck with squall"
thats possible but it doesnāt make as much (and isnāt as cool) as her just being rinoa who has long since become obsessed with squall since his death.
Make as muchā¦.sense, perhaps? As Iāve already said, given the lack of facts, itās just as plausible as R=U. Plus, arguing that something doesnāt work because it "isnāt as cool" as another explanation is simply retarded.
Ultimecia didnāt make any sense. But she does if you add this missing jigsaw puzzle. I maintain it was meant to be there but they just took it out at the last second
I made this point before, and you conviently ignored it, but neither you nor I have any way of knowing what Squeenixās intentions were. So you can maintain your assertion all you want, but as Iāve said earlier, Lieutenant Dan has more legs than that argument.
One final point: Wasnāt there an Ultimania Guide released for FFVIII? Isnāt the Ultimania Guide the end-all, be-all for plot-related questions? If the answer to both questions are yes, then did the Guide state that Rinoa and Ultimecia are one and the same? If the answer to that is no, then whatās the point in continuing to speculate about all this?
To say that the plot doesnāt make any sense without R=U doesnāt make any sense. The game simply gives you the impression that Ultimecia is just a sorceress who has been feared and hated and who plans to destroy the fabric of spacetime. I still am not convinced enough to believe that itās true; it clearly could work out in the plot, but other interpretations are just as sound. Furthermore, thereās nothing to suggest that sorceresses live forever, and it seems illogical that Rinoa lived on and didnāt simply pass on her powers and kill herself when Squall died. Rinoa never would have become a sorceress if Ultimecia hadnāt possessed Edea; essentially, that creates a time loop paradox, and you donāt want to insert one of those unless you have to. Edeaās sorceress powers are NOT one such paradox because she tells you that she became a sorceress at a very young age; thus, when Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, Edea is really receiving the powers of another sorceress for the second time.
There are plot holes in R=U that I will admit are not irreconcilable, but they show that it doesnāt really deserve any credibility above other interpretations.
Edit: I read this on another forum:
"The Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide, an official publication of Square-Enix, states that Witches have ordinary human lifespans."
The argument is officially dead if that is the case.
Thought people would have clocked on by now. Ultemicia is not Rinoa.
Its pretty obvious.
Um, just about anything involving just about any FF is an "old debate."
I dont think square will ever say that Rinoa is Ultimecia because Iām aware its not in the canon plot. I maintain that the original plot must have had that paradox in there because otherwise the entire plot is crap and pointless. The fact that ONE sentence couldāve changed it, just near the end someone realising that Rinoa was Ultimecia, and considering its SUCH and obvious plot twist, really points to the fact that someone who was writing the plot must have thought it up in some point of the development of the plot and got shot down. (by the way things like ultimania are not written by the official writers, again it just says what square wants it to say)
There are a lot of movies and books which get watered down for the public, many books dont get published until editors moan and bitch to writers to change lots of things, making the original motif disappear. Hollywood movies are made to appeal to the masses, so many things are comprimised here, consider how Treasure Planet was pretty much the only intelligent and mature disney cartoon made and it bombed at the box office, obviously disney will shy away from that from now on. Youād have to be a retard to have not at some point come up with the R=U plot point if you were a writer for the game, there are enough clues on the level of Laguna being Squalls dad in the game (actually there are moreā¦) its just missing that ONE little thing that couldāve made it definite.
This is a total shame and I refuse to believe that such a good game can have such a horrible plot, hence isnāt it better to believe in that one little thing that makes the ENTIRE motif of love and soceresses make sense? It had to originally be there!
As for my understanding of Circular logic. Its believing something before you have the proof and then finding the proof in things that allude to it. This is not the case with R=U theorists because no-one TOLD me that R=U and then I looked around in the game to prove it. I came up to the conclusion by myself a long time ago from the evidence I saw in the game. Things which had no significance and had no reason to be there DID have significance if this one thread tied together. I could see this as clear as day. The moment I saw Ultimecias face superimposed on Rinoas face the first time I finished the game I thought "ah, this must be the part where they reveal that Rinoa is Ultimecia, pretty cool how they left it til the end".
This doesnāt happen and I was left thinking how bullshit it was that they OBVIOUSLY decided to leave it out after coming up with it.
Sorry, its just nonsensical without that. The plot is entire bullshit and has the worst FF plot ever if its not true. If it IS true then it has one of the best FF plots (which isnāt saying much as most FF stories are contrived and cliche) which Iād much rather choose.
Again. Iām aware its non-canon. But many people accept the original versions of movies and books as definitive versions things (Blade Runner before the ridiculous edits, the Wasteland before Ezra Pound got to it, everyone is obsessed with directors cuts and extended scenes, usually these add more to the works and make them much better) in this case there is some speculation and lots of room to be wrong.
But like I said it makes much more sense. To people who say "but all these arbitrary definitions make just as much sense" no they do not. They are perhaps just as plausible, but they end up making important scenes arbitrary and pointless when they could mean much more.
EDIT: the other thing I forgot is that in the europeans versions of the game like the german version, her name isnāt ultimecia its artemesia, and its arguably what her name is in the japanese version too. You all know this argument. Is this a coincidence? They decided to choose this name just cos it sounded cool right? Not cos she was a person who was madly in love with her husband and wanted to be with him past deathā¦
Aha! Stop right there!
"Oh shit, all of us are from the same orphanage and now weāre brought back together for no reason! Hmmm, must be because we forgot everything because of GFs."
The entire plot is pretty pointless when they throw this bit of trash in. I believe itās a poorly executed storyline anyway; saying that it is such without R=U is moot.
Thats FF8s problem. The plot is great but its executed disgustingly, thats why the huge gap explaining how in fuck everything is linked was missing.
Edit: its a circle similar to R=U
Edea met grown up squall in the past, she gained ultimeciaās powers (Iām not sure about the significance about why this is though, it doesnāt tie into the plot unless this is the point where she first became a sorceressā¦ which it wasnāt) squall told her that he would be fighting Ultimecia in the future and that she would come up with the idea of SeeD to fight the sorceress. Of course after getting funding from NORG the first few people to join SeeD would be the people from her orphanage, the ones who hadnāt left that is. This entire time Edea and Cid were aware that itād be Squall who would defeat the sorceress. And so when the sorceress popped up, Cid begrudgingly brought together the original SeeD members who he knew would beat Ultimecia even though they didnāt remember and even though it meant his wife might die.
He transferred selphie to balamb, recruited zell and bunched him together with seifer and squall in their first mission. Got irvine specially to join them in the sharpshooting mission, and hoped itād be a matter of time when they would get their memory back.
If they explained it like that instead of "HEEEEY I REMEMBER YOU NOW" then of course it wouldāve been better. Its another example of a decent plot twist gone to waste cos of poor execution.
And here the debate ends. This isnāt about whether or not Rinoa is Ultimecia; this has about getting your fanboy on and grasping at whatever you can to like this game for whatever reason. Thatās all well and good, but arguing that something is so just so you can like it is all kinds of lame. If you want to debate FFVIIIās quality, go to the Stand/Fall thread.
I have one final point, one that Iāve made twice in this thread and at least four times in the Stand/Fall thread. Since Iām apparently stubborn enough to try to get this through your head, Iāll give it one last try. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing Squeenixās intentions with this game. Any argument that claims as much has fewer legs than Lieutenant Dan. In case you missed the reference the first two times, Forrest Gump so elequently stated "but Lieutenant Dan, you aināt got no legs!"
Oh come on this isnāt what my life is about. This thread is here for a reason isnāt it?
Anyway I wouldnāt call myself a fanboy, I didnāt give a crap about FF8 until a few days ago when I finished it again a few days ago. Iād rather call it caught up in the shameful fail of a potentially great plot.
This argument doesnāt seem to be getting anywhere. Iām sure the fact that there are clues everywhere are "legs" enough, and the fact that the explanations for these clues are pointless and dont explain why theyāre in the game (why bother making her GF a lion called greiver, surely there must be a significance?) link them all together.
Anyway whatever ā I only care enough about this to go on for so long.
Oh come on this isnāt what my life is about. This thread is here for a reason isnāt it?
Anyway I wouldnāt call myself a fanboy, I didnāt give a crap about FF8 until a few days ago when I finished it again a few days ago. Iād rather call it caught up in the shameful fail of a potentially great plot.
This argument doesnāt seem to be getting anywhere. Iām sure the fact that there are clues everywhere are "legs" enough, and the fact that the explanations for these clues are pointless and dont explain why theyāre in the game (why bother making her GF a lion called greiver, surely there must be a significance?) link them all together.
Anyway whatever ā I only care enough about this to go on for so long.
Come on people! You, Cloukyo (or somethingā¦), you shouldn`t let that evil moogle`s words put you down! You should write your entire opinion on this matter. Maybe something will come out from this discusionā¦ eventually.
Participants in forums should not shut each other up. Opinions should be brought up and brought down, without stuff like: Oh, shut up! You know nothing, and I know everything.
Rinoa never would have become a sorceress if Ultimecia hadnāt possessed Edea; essentially, that creates a time loop paradox, and you donāt want to insert one of those unless you have to. Edeaās sorceress powers are NOT one such paradox because she tells you that she became a sorceress at a very young age; thus, when Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, Edea is really receiving the powers of another sorceress for the second time.
There are plot holes in R=U that I will admit are not irreconcilable, but they show that it doesnāt really deserve any credibility above other interpretations.
Here I would like to make another conection to the R=U theory (not quite sound though). Edea recieved sorceress` powers twice. Right? Rinoa recieved sorceress powers when they beat Edea in Galbadia garden. Edea continued to be a sorceress after that battle. Opinions, anybody?
I mainly wanted to point out two quotes from the game that stuck out to me about the topic.
1. Rinoa ā "I donāt want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with youā¦"
If this does not sound like a reason for time compression I donāt know what does.
2. Rinoa ā "But Edeaās stillā¦ I canāt guarantee anything, either, if Ultimecia
possesses me againā¦ You saw me. She controlled me in outerspace and made me break Adelās seal. What might happen next time? What will I end up doing? Will I end up fighting everyone? ā¦Scary thought, isnāt it?"
Squall ā "(Rinoaā¦ā¦) (Even if you end up as the worldās enemy.) (Iāllā¦)
(Iāll be your knight.)"
Squall thought to himself that even if Rinoa was the worlds enemy, he would still be her knight.
I think that these quotes are a good basis for the theory even though they do not prove anything. Does anyone know if square had written a back story before they made the game that explained more about some of the characters we donāt know much about? The possibilities of a story for a sequel to FFVIII are limitless.
Last thing:
For those who think R=U is a good theory, what do you think about the possibility of, instead of Squall dying and Rinoa going insane, Rinoa turns Squall in Griever, which is a much more fitting role for her knight as a powerful sorcerress. I know we have no proof the GFās were actually humans but there is not any against is either.
And itās more or less exactly what Cloukyo said. Which is more or less exactly what every single person hooked on this crap has ever said. Yeah, Iām starting to get bored, too.
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