Hojo infused him with Jenova cells, making him the way he is, not even giving him a choice. Sephy is just another one of Hojo’s victims, nothing more. Since he read all about the Jenova project, he believed that Jenova was his mother, and this belief was further supported by the fact that Sephy probably felt the same attraction to Jenova as did all the other clones. It was all Hojo’s fault that Sephy was feeling this way. If Hojo didn’t do all this to him, then Sephy wouldn’t have killed Aerith, because he believed that he had to become the ruler of the planet, and that’s why he killed her, since she was a threat to him.
All this happened because of Hojo. I think it’s not Sephy’s fault. It’s Hojo that’s the real bad guy. He’s a power-hungry, sick man. I don’t want everyone to hate Sephy. It was really not his fault. He was manipulated by Hojo. He didn’t even know. Poor Sephy…
What do you guys think about all this?
Vincent
Cloud
Zack
Hojo is an evil man……
bilz
bilz
Hypocrite.
Unseen, I know I would hate someone who killed my entire family, but if I was to find out that that someone was treated the way Sephy was treated (or ina simillar way), I think I would show some understanding because you can’t blame him for what has been done to him. Of course I couldn’t forgive him, but I would definetly show some understanding. This may sound strange, but that’s the way I am.
I just figured the two sides should be clearly defined.
he says that freewill, we can do what ever we want, but then we must take the outcome of our actions,
determinism however says we do not have the freewill, that we can see what people will do if we know them well, and if you say you cant blame him them your saying that he didnt have any control on what he was doing.
maybe though jenova was controling him, jenova maybe told him that his purpose in life was to get all the power. so whether it is or isnt his fault we will need to fnd out a bot more, maybe advent children will clean it up
First of all, everyone that posts in this thread will be debating between either free will or determinism. Starting your post out with �no we�re not� shows that you either didn�t understand what I said, or you just want to say I�m wrong merely to say I�m wrong.
You also didn�t do a very good job at simplifying what I said. You got the basics of free will right, but not many people would really understand what you mean by �then we must take the outcome of our actions�. In this debate, people who think Sepherioth had free will believe that he had control over his actions, to some degree. If he has control over his actions then he can be blamed for those actions.
Determinism is where you really didn�t understand what I was saying. Determinism doesn�t say that you can predict people�s actions, period. There is more to it than that. It just says that, if you had enough information about someone (like the way their brain works and how they were raised in their family) you could predict their actions. There are other areas of determinism as well, such as religions that believe their god controls everything that happens. However, that�s not the point. The point is, that if someone�s actions are not really theirs, but rather their brain telling them to do so, or god telling them to do so, or society telling them to do so (or anything else), then that person should not be held responsible for his or her actions.
As for the Jenova aspect, if you believe that Jenova was telling him to do something wrong, then you�re saying you agree with determinism. If someone says that he�s still responsible for his actions regardless, then they are taking the side of free will.
EDIT: Also, not knowing the meaning of a word isn’t an excuse. http://dictionary.reference.com/
A. Sephiroth made a conscious choice to be evil based on some silly emo mood swing.
B. Sephiroth is the product of his environment and upbringing because he’s too much of a whiny bitch to be his own man.
Bad character either way.
Also, saying you don’t care because you’re 13 doesn’t cut it. If you’re going to complain about not understanding the words I use then don’t complain when I give you a tool to help you understand them. It’s counterproductive. Honestly, �I�m 13� isn�t an excuse. �I�m lazy� sounds more like it.
ok 1 more thing,
You also didn�t do a very good job at simplifying what I said. honestly "im 13" doesnt cut it "im lazy" sounds more like it.
^^^ you actually said that, ok ok, so if i was lazt why would i try and help other people understand what you were saying? if i was being just a lazy fuck why would i bother? please answer me that question
That was more because I wanted to point out that there really isn’t an excuse for not knowing what the meaning of a word is.
i know what you were doing, trying to mug me infront of everyone, and it probobly worked hehe but i dont really care
Oh yeah, I sure got your pot ‘o gold.
You also didn�t do a very good job at simplifying what I said. honestly "im 13" doesnt cut it "im lazy" sounds more like it.
^^^ you actually said that, ok ok, so if i was lazt why would i try and help other people understand what you were saying? if i was being just a lazy fuck why would i bother? please answer me that question
They were un-related. You saying that you don’t understand the words I’m using, and refusing to use an online dictionary (which only requires you to copy the word, paste it, and hit "search") is lazy. It’s basically doing a half-assed job because you tried to simplify something without making sure you knew exactly what you were trying to simplify.
^^^ you actually said that, ok ok, so if i was lazt why would i try and help other people understand what you were saying? if i was being just a lazy fuck why would i bother? please answer me that question
Listen kid. You posted in this thread 6 times. Count. They teach you that when you are 13.
Out of those 6, 5 were useless rants against RB and just plain useless comments. If you want I can show them to you.
And you aren’t helping anyone understand jack shit. It is obvious that no one has any complaints to what RB has said or they would have come out and say it. It seems that you are the only person who seems to have a problem with this.
If you believe that RB should
KEEP YOUR STUPID, UNNECASARY COMMENTS TO YOURSELF!!! NO ONE LIKE YOU!! ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME FOR YOU TO POST, GO AWAY, unless you have something constructive to say
, then I can show you why his comments where not useless at all.
The original problme was this
I don’t want everyone to hate Sephy. It was really not his fault. He was manipulated by Hojo. He didn’t even know. Poor Sephy…
What do you guys think about this? That was the question.
Here were the responses:
Yes as long as he has a revival object good enough to undo what hes done
I agree, it’s Hojo’s fault, not Sephy. He could have been a normal kid, but he wasn’t. And Sephy isn’t the only one’s like Hojo messed up.
Then he proceeded to say who Hojo messed up. A point irrelevant to the topic.
So RB’s comment was perfectly feasible. Kid, go suck on a lollipop or something and try to figure out what "mugging someone" is before you jusmp out and say it. It makes you look really…really…dumb.
Everyone makes their own choices.
I find it sad that this thread will never be the philosophical debate that it has the potential to become.
very sarcastic and un-neccesery, so do not lecture me on something i will not change my mind on, so you can turn around and say that the comment "I find it sad that this thread will never be the philosophical debate that it has the potential to become." usefull? you belive that that comment was the highlight of this thread?
Well, if my observation was correct, then how could it have been pointless, unnecessary, childish, unhelpful, or meaningless? It could have been sarcastic, but it really wasn�t. I sincerely do not think that this thread will ever reach the potential it has, despite efforts to lead it in that direction. I think you just like to spew random insults. On that same note, I sincerely hope you�re using a joke account, otherwise I pity you. Though, my reason for hoping your account is a joke is a little selfish. After all, if you�re not acting like this on purpose to try and get a laugh it just means you�re one sad individual.
So, if you�re on a joke account then good job! If not, grow up, brat.
Anyway, back on topic, Sephiroth was probably hit with a lot of shock when he found out the truth. This happens multiple times in other Final Fantasies so it is a recurring theme(such as Zidane in FF9). But Zidane and most characters who go through this had friends to help them but Sephiroth was all alone in his discovery. That discovery probably led to his insanity and therefore, his actions were not entirely Hojo’s fault.
Everyone makes their own choices.
Well, yes, this is true, my eating habits are nothing alike to what my parents taught me (I just hate green sallad), but this is based on your own life experiences. However, other people can be comanded, and not ever’y child’s eating habits are totaly different from their parents’. Some children eat the same things the same way. Some people can be influenced, I guess Sephy was one of those peole, sadly.
Dragoncurry is also right, Sephy suffered from a shock. But this shock was again alone Hojo’s fault because he didn’t tell his son the truth. So Hojo is not totally innocent in this, although it is also not TOTALLY his fault, but it’s partialy his fault.
Exactly my point, people shoud go through all that Sephy went through, and only then will they see which choices they would make later on. You first must be in such a position and I guess it was very hard for Sephy. But as I said, he was practicaly manipulated, which was also Hojo’s plan.
Unseen, I know I would hate someone who killed my entire family, but if I was to find out that that someone was treated the way Sephy was treated (or ina simillar way), I think I would show some understanding because you can’t blame him for what has been done to him. Of course I couldn’t forgive him, but I would definetly show some understanding. This may sound strange, but that’s the way I am.
Your talking like that bcos uve never experienced sumthin like that if they kill ur parents then u know dat wat ur saying is wrong ur using compassion to judge sephy according to the game, i know that if they kill my parents (which will never happen), i will track down the bastard dat did it and kill him as for seph i think obsession and disbelief led him to do stupid things like killing aeris.
It’s not true that I’m saying that just lke that. You see, I think I wouldn’t kill the guy who killed my whole family. I would track him down and bring him to justice. But killing him would just prove that I myself am no better than him. And I would never allow my self to become a ruthless killer like him. After all, I don’t have the right to take others’ lives, no matter what. They will get their punishment, but no one deserves to be killed.
You could now say "But your parents also didn’t deserve to be killed" – This is true, but people whi kill are definetly not sane, and they’re wrong if they think killing is alright. Repaying the killer with the same kind of measure (killing) would be stupid, because even people like killers have loved ones who love them, and I would never allow my self to become a ruthless killer, yet alone cause pain to his loved ones as he did with me. I am NO KILLER. I can show compassion, and that is not a weakness.
As for Sephy, I already said that he did make his own choices, but he was still partially manipulated, no one can deny that.
If you feel that the people here aren’t worth typing properly for, then you shouldn’t be posting here at all. This is not a damn AOL chat room. Grammar is appreciated.
1. Seph was genetically experimented on ( infusion of JENOVA’s Cells)
2. iirc, JENOVA was an alien life form, who knows what sort of strength it has ( both mentally and Physically)
3. Seph finds out ( the hard way) that he is an experiment, and that leads him to believe that his ancestors were betrayed by our ancestors
4. Hojo never seemed to care for human life, therefore it is possible, not definate, to deduce that Sephs upbringing would have been more like a series of scientifc experimanets than the play and fun of a normal child
now I expect that someone will be nice to point out that Cloud was also infused with JENOVA’s cells, but ( and this is one of Praks criticisms of FF7) We never really know to what extent, for all we know Cloud may have had only a fraction of the amount that Seph had, thats why JENOVA’s control wasn’t as great.
You’re probably right, none of this can be proved, but I think it’s logical that Zack received the greatest amount of Jenova cells and Cloud a little less, and in the end, the unborn baby Sephy the least amount of cells. This can’t be proved, but as I said already, it’s pretty logical.
Sephiroth was part of an expensive project, and it is doubtful that they even let Hojo near him during his childhood, since he was so "inexperienced," as people called him. It was DR. GAST’S Jenova Project, not Hojo’s.
Sephiroth was probably put into SOLDIER training around the age of twelve or so. If this is true, then he wouldn’t have known Hojo for more than a couple of years. Perhaps Hojo wasn’t allowed to tell the truth. Or if you believe the "Hojo’s early injection" theory (saying that Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells before Sephiroth’s birth or during his childhood) Hojo might have been instructed by Jenova herself.
When the time was ripe, Sephiroth would be sent unwittingly to the very place where Jenova was, and where there were books planted by either Hojo or Gast saying that Sephiroth was artificially "produced."
I think Sephiroth, once he had gotten close enough to Jenova, she (or it, if you prefer) was able to take control of him and that is what drove him insane. It could control Cloud (like when he almost killed Aeris), and he was infused with Jenova cells when an adult. Imagine Sephiroth, who bathed in aminotic fluid filled with Jenova cells, being under Its control. Once taking control, It could make him do whatever she wanted. And then his madness and therefore lust for power went so far that he was able to gain strength and power to a further extent than Jenova’s, like a pawn moving to the eighth square and becoming a queen, so to speak. That’s probably something that Jenova did not expect.
Sorry if you’re offended at my defending Hojo, but he’s one of my favorite characters.
But as I already said, It was partially Hojo’s fault. Besides, I wasn’t talking about Hojo’s influence on Sephy. If Hojo didn’t infect Sephy with Jenova cells, Sephy would have been normal. But he did that to his own child and destroyed his life. So it is his fault. Sephy life was controled, manipulated partially.