However, that is where the superiority of FFVII to the earlier Final Fantasies ends. The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don???t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it. A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I???m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven???t played it). Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger). FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story. Ok, so it was not innovative as far as the story goes, what about the battle and materia system you ask?
It is pretty much a given that the battle system was not new at all. Just about every single Final Fantasy (or even RPG for that matter) had followed a similar formula before that, and I would hope that no one would argue that point further. Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called ???innovative???. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your ???limit??? you are no longer able to use the ???fight??? command. This makes it a pain to save the limit. You either use another command or skip your turn. Later on in the game this might not be a huge problem due to the fact that more command materia becomes available. However, in the early stages you pretty much have 4 options: use your limit, use magic, use an item, or skip that character???s turn. Using magic would not be a smart idea because then you may not have it for later battles when you really need it, the same holds true for using an item. Using your limit is often times undesirable because it means you will just be using it on an enemy you could much easier defeat by attacking normally, and skipping turns is always a horrid choice because you???re basically brought down to a 2-person party. This is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. I repeat, this is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. What is the limit system then? Flawed. Even later in the game your characters shouldn???t HAVE to have another command that they can use in order to not worry about using their limit.
As for the materia system, it???s not a bad system, but I don???t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game. The only thing that is really unique about any one member of the party is their limit breaks, which I already discussed. Besides, there isn???t really anything ???unique??? about the limits anyway, but I digress. As said, the materia system makes the game far too easy by allowing every character to use every command and spell in the game. If you want a real challenge then you need a game where each character has unique abilities that are melded with the rest of the party in order to make a fully functioning unit. NOT a system where every damn member of the party can have the exact same materia and just flick away any enemy you see without any effort. That???s not a challenge game, that???s a game being made for simpletons.
There was nothing new about the gameplay other than the fact that the camera angle could be changed on the world map, which just goes back to the graphics and ???visually appealing??? comments I made before, so I won???t bother touching on that.
So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!??? The answer to that is simple. First of all, the game was marketed to all hell. It was the first Final Fantasy, or role playing game for that matter, that I remember actually seeing ads for on the TV. There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII. Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV. It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG???s or had the mindset of ???RPG???s are for nerds???. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.
As if that weren???t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn???t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game. Just flip from page to page until the game was done. For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn???t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn???t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own. Then a family member got me one just because, I still don???t know why. I decided I might as well go back through with it and see if there was anything I missed. Know what I missed? Two treasure chests. One had a Phoenix Down in it and the other had an Elixir. I hope that will serve as proof that you do not need a strategy guide to play this game because it IS NOT a hard game to play.
Now, back to what I was saying. Because the game was incredibly easy to play/beat, had a very shallow story line (making it very easy to follow), was marketed more than any game previously, and had graphics that were superior to anything at the time (which helped cover up the crappiness of the game), Final Fantasy VII was a huge success. This game was <I>not</I> a smash hit due to being a good game, because it wasn???t a good game. It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That???s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you???re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series.
<B>The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don???t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it.</B>
I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I’m older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.
<B>Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I???m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well.</B>
Aeris’ death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn’t make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party’s resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.
<B>Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven???t played it).</B>
There is a big difference between Aeris, and the twins. When Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves, they <I>knew</I> that it was going to stop the wall, and thus, save their companions lives. When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn’t <I>know</I> if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn’t guarantee the party’s safety at all. Palom and Porom’s did though.
<B>Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger).</B>
I don’t see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Crono gave it all he had to try and defeat Lavos the first time, but he paid for it, by vanishing into thin air. Everyone knew where Cloud was after he was rescued from the Life Stream. But, Crono could have been anywhere. That is far more dramatic.
<B>As for the materia system, it???s not a bad system, but I don???t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game.</B>
I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it’s a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you.
<B>Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV.</B>
Yeah, like all two or three of them.
<B>It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG???s or had the mindset of ???RPG???s are for nerds???. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.</B>
Also, FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, <I>because</I> it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it.
<B>As if that weren???t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn???t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game.</B>
Just imagine how much more popular FFIV and FFVI would have been if official strategy guides were released along with the game.
I mean really, imagine. These two games, which are in fact <I>better</I> than FFVII, would become only more popular.
<B>For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn???t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn???t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own.</B>
Same here. I didn’t actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.
Also, another thing. All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don’t even need it to beat the game. I don’t understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR.
<B>This game was <I>not</I> a smash hit due to being a good game, because it wasn???t a good game. It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That???s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you???re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series. </B>
And, it was a smash hit because the game manipulated it’s fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.
I’m also sick and tired of all these FFVII nuts. Most of them don’t even provide explanations with why they love this game, or why they think Sephiroth is the greatest villian ever. That pisses me off more than anything.
So yes, if you are going to argue against Rabid Monkey, good luck.
You say the story is shallow, I say the story is indeed not with extreme strange twists and turns all the time and you dont have to think what is going on but I have never experienced that from any other FF???s (but I must admit I never played 1 through 6). Furthermore I dont mind that the story is "simple" in the way that you dont have to think about it, why should that be?
The Limit system was designed this way on purpose I think, I guess they wanted it that it is not possible to store your limit break meter. And its not really an argument why a whole game is bad….
The materia system I must say was pretty cool. And again I dont need a level up system with unique abilities for characters bla bla..
And yes the game was pretty easy I finished it without a guide as well and didnt miss that much as far as I can remember (I dont think I only missed an elixir and a phoenix down, probably a bit more) but I liked the game.
It is just a matter of opinion, I dont get it that you can say that it IS a bad game because that is YOUR vision of it.
So you can say your opinion of the game is that its bad but I dont see how you can say that because so many people think it is a great game and well if so many people say that it probably has a little truth in it right???
And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! (and if someone must look at the posts as an admin or moderator then ask someone else to do that and not you in the FF7 forum)
Ow and about KOTR you use it for ruby and emerald weapon, and if you say why would you beat it? well why do people play games? because they like to do it, and well I liked to kill those weapons and so I did. Thats why!!
And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! Did he say "You guys can’t/shouldn’t enjoy FF7" or "These are my reasons for believing FF7 to be a bad game"?
<B>You say the story is shallow, I say the story is indeed not with extreme strange twists and turns all the time and you dont have to think what is going on but I have never experienced that from any other FF???s (but I must admit I never played 1 through 6). Furthermore I dont mind that the story is "simple" in the way that you dont have to think about it, why should that be?</B>
That’s another reason why FFVII is considered the greatest of the series. Because most of the fans of the game have never even played 1-6.
And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.
<B>The materia system I must say was pretty cool. And again I dont need a level up system with unique abilities for characters bla bla..</B>
Again, another statement without reasoning behind it.
Each character should have their own unique abilites. Otherwise, the game becomes stale rather quickly.
<B>It is just a matter of opinion, I dont get it that you can say that it IS a bad game because that is YOUR vision of it.</B>
And the same could be said about you. I don’t get why you can say it’s a good game, because that is your vision of it. So, there really is no point in making that statement.
<B>So you can say your opinion of the game is that its bad but I dont see how you can say that because so many people think it is a great game and well if so many people say that it probably has a little truth in it right???</B>
Not really. Most of the FFVII fans are just blind to what <I>really</I> made the game popular.
<B>And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! (and if someone must look at the posts as an admin or moderator then ask someone else to do that and not you in the FF7 forum)</B>
Him or I never said that you weren’t allowed to share why you like this game or not. So where did you come off with that? Also, this forum is about discussion, just like every other one. So, if I read something that I didn’t agree with, I would share my two cents about it. That is discussion.
And the same could be said about you. I don’t get why you can say it’s a good game, because that is your vision of it. So, there really is no point in making that statement.
I never said it IS a good game I just think it is a good game, thats my opinion.
Originally posted by Smokey
Him or I never said that you weren’t allowed to share why you like this game or not. So where did you come off with that? Also, this forum is about discussion, just like every other one. So, if I read something that I didn’t agree with, I would share my two cents about it. That is discussion.
That I said to rabid monkey not you…
I guess the bottom line is that there are people like me that liked the game and people like you that dont. If you cannot accept that then thats sad…
Aeris’ death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn’t make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party’s resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.
There is a big difference between Aeris, and the twins. When Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves, they <I>knew</I> that it was going to stop the wall, and thus, save their companions lives. When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn’t <I>know</I> if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn’t guarantee the party’s safety at all. Palom and Porom’s did though.
But… that’s the whole point of plot twists. It’s the same with the twins in FFIV. They didn’t just go "Well, they saved us, fuck them now!" The rest of the story WAS about making sure their sacrifice wasn’t in vain, however, unlike FF7 they didn’t outright say that every 5 scenes. Hence adding to the simplistic storyline of FF7. Also, I fail to see how the twins turning to stone somehow promises any more success than Areis dying does…
Also, FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, <I>because</I> it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it.
Exactly. Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing, but that was basically one of my points all the same.
Just imagine how much more popular FFIV and FFVI would have been if official strategy guides were released along with the game.
From what I’ve been told they did have them. However, they weren’t marketed WITH the game as kind of a join purchase.
Originally posted by Brein
You say the story is shallow, I say the story is indeed not with extreme strange twists and turns all the time and you dont have to think what is going on but I have never experienced that from any other FF???s (but I must admit I never played 1 through 6). Furthermore I dont mind that the story is "simple" in the way that you dont have to think about it, why should that be?
That’s because all the FF’s for the Playstation and PS2 are made with the same intentions of FFVII. I didn’t bother mentioning them, but the fact is they get progressively worse in a lot of respects once Square hits the Playstation.
As for why it should matter, last I checked you play RPG’s for the story, not the flashy graphics. That’s why.
The Limit system was designed this way on purpose I think, I guess they wanted it that it is not possible to store your limit break meter. And its not really an argument why a whole game is bad….
It was a very annoying system. What is the point of having a limit break if you HAVE to use it right when you get it? Also, I was presenting that as part of my case, not my whole case. I would thank you not to treat it as my entire argument.
The materia system I must say was pretty cool. And again I dont need a level up system with unique abilities for characters bla bla..
Well yeah, it’s a cool concept, but that doesn’t make it a good one.
It is just a matter of opinion, I dont get it that you can say that it IS a bad game because that is YOUR vision of it.
So I’m not allowed to have an opinion on it just because you don’t get why I think it isn’t a good game?
So you can say your opinion of the game is that its bad but I dont see how you can say that because so many people think it is a great game and well if so many people say that it probably has a little truth in it right???
No. You see, here is the difference between what I said and what you’re saying right there. I explained why I think it is a bad game; you basically said "well everyone else likes it so you should too". Feel free to insert a comment about how a bunch of people are jumping off a bridge here.
And never say that people cant tell that they like FF7 because thats what this forum is all about, if people want to do that just dont read it, if it doesnt interest you dont look at the posts dammit!!! (and if someone must look at the posts as an admin or moderator then ask someone else to do that and not you in the FF7 forum)
That’s one hell of a double standard to set. You’re basically saying that I’m only allowed to express my opinion if it is the exact same opinion as yours, or anyone else that likes FF7. Personally I think that makes you a hypocrite because you’re saying that I can’t deny you of your opinion, which I didn’t, but you would deny me of mine because I don’t like FF7.
<B>But… that’s the whole point of plot twists. It’s the same with the twins in FFIV. They didn’t just go "Well, they saved us, fuck them now!" The rest of the story WAS about making sure their sacrifice wasn’t in vain, however, unlike FF7 they didn’t outright say that every 5 scenes. Hence adding to the simplistic storyline of FF7. Also, I fail to see how the twins turning to stone somehow promises any more success than Areis dying does…</B>
Yeah. Palom and Porom’s sacrifice wasn’t nearly as big as an event as Aeris’ death, but it was a lot more dramatic IMO. Too much importance was put on the end of Aeris in the game. I guess it promises more success, because of when the events took place during the game. When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them. However, with the twins, their journey was just beginning. So I just find it to be more important that they sacrificed themselves, more than what Aeris did. Also, I just think it’s more meaningful because Cecil had recently become a Paladin. Palom and Porom were putting their trust into his hands, which were stained with blood not too long ago. That is what really struck me about it.
<B>Exactly. Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing, but that was basically one of my points all the same.</B>
I’m agreeing with you. It’s just that I’m trying to further strengthen that specific point.
<B>From what I’ve been told they did have them. However, they weren’t marketed WITH the game as kind of a join purchase.</B>
Yes, they are available. But it’s not like they were sitting on the shelves right alongside the game. If they were however, then those two games would have been more popular.
<I>Originally posted by Brein</I>
<B>I never said it IS a good game I just think it is a good game, thats my opinion.</B>
That is the same exact thing! You’re saying that you <I>think</I> it’s a good game, but you won’t actually <I>say</I> it’s a good game? Now I understand, because it makes perfect sense!
<B>That I said to rabid monkey not you…</B>
Yeah, I know that. But when you look at it, your statement is aimed at everyone who agrees with Rabid Monkey. And that includes me.
<B>I guess the bottom line is that there are people like me that liked the game and people like you that dont. If you cannot accept that then thats sad…</B>
What the fuck are you talking about? I know that there are people who do and don’t like the game. I don’t have to agree with their opinions, but I do accept them. What’s sad is that you are being a hypocrite about the whole thing, because you won’t accept the fact that there are people like me who don’t like the game.
<B>If you dont like it that is ofcourse fine by me, and im not even gonna argue anymore cause its pointless argueing with people over internet without sitting around the table and saying it face to face cause things only get interpreted wrong….
I say something and someone else thinks I say something else cause its read differintly…
So lets just say I like FF7 and you dont. End of story (for me).</B>
No, we aren’t interpreting anything wrong. All you have said is you like FFVII, and that we aren’t allowed to say otherwise. There are so many people who claim that FFVII is such a good game, and I respect their opinions. But, when so many people fail to argue why they like it, that’s the problem. If you are going to say your opinion, then state your cause, as well. That will earn them a lot more respect from me. Now, I still won’t agree with them. But I will still respect the fact that they just don’t say these baseless statements, and then run away when the pressure gets too high. That is the point of the argument; to see both sides of the story. So basically what you are doing is saying you like the game, without providing much support behind your posts.
If you dont like it that is ofcourse fine by me, and im not even gonna argue anymore cause its pointless argueing with people over internet without sitting around the table and saying it face to face cause things only get interpreted wrong….
I say something and someone else thinks I say something else cause its read differintly…
So lets just say I like FF7 and you dont. End of story (for me).
It really is just your opinion on how the game is and stuff. There are alot of things (mostly movies) that have alot of hype and advertising around them and when they come out they are complete bombs… so don’t use the hype factor as a reason why you think FF7 sucks.
We all ready have like five of these "FF7 Sucks" or "Your game sucks" threads and all of you FF7 haters have already said how much you think this game sucks many times so lay off just a bit.
It really is just your opinion on how the game is and stuff. There are alot of things (mostly movies) that have alot of hype and advertising around them and when they come out they are complete bombs… so don’t use the hype factor as a reason why you think FF7 sucks.
Another example of being a hypocrite. If you want all the FFVII haters to lay off, then I want all the FFVII lovers to lay off.
And no, there is no movie that was advertised as much as FFVII was back then.
We all ready have like five of these "FF7 Sucks" or "Your game sucks" threads and all of you FF7 haters have already said how much you think this game sucks many times so lay off just a bit.
It really is just your opinion on how the game is and stuff. There are alot of things (mostly movies) that have alot of hype and advertising around them and when they come out they are complete bombs… so don’t use the hype factor as a reason why you think FF7 sucks.
Way to not defend your point of view! Seriously, if the only thing people can come up with is "IT IS JUST YOUR OPINION" then it is kind of pointless to try and prove that I’m wrong. After all, I could say that FF7 being a good game is just your opinion, however, unlike me, you have done nothing to back it up.
if the game was so linear, then anyone who decided not to stray of-course and visit old places and look around, would never have found the info about another species like Red 13, you never would have found out the whole story behind Zack, and it would have all been specualtion, plus, you never would have found lucreica (sp?) and have gotten Vincents best weapon or his final Limit Breaker, which to this day, is one of the better one’s i’ve seen…and i have played all the games.
Also, if the game is so damn easy to beat, I would like to see how quickly you could make a Golden Chocobo to get KOFR aswell as discover the potentiel of the Huge Materia, or even that you could use it!
Also, as a final note, I do think this one one of the best games, but i also have reasons:
A) the story is far from linear, sure the game is easy to beat, but not if u try and get everything and do’nt miss anything…godd luck with that without a guide.
B)They didn’t leave alot of things without answers, like red 13 and any others like him, the whole story about Zack, which also explains more about cloud’s past, leading right up to before he walks in at the beginning of the game.
C) it does take a reasonable about of skill and creativity to get the materia working right, and as you said, it was easy, well, does that mean u only would have hated it more if you could keep your HP and gain the skill??? Come on
and D) Some of the areas had more things to offer, just like some of the older one’s, but this offered it in a much different way, like, going back to Kalm after the weapons appear, speak to people, you will surprised with some of the missions you are sent on, they are hard, but the rewards are worth it.
So just like it was said, it’s a double edge sword, don’t bash people by saying they are not supporting why they like the game, your gunna need stronger points to convince some people that it’s not a very good game…
but like it was said, it’s all a matter of choice and personal view, and my view is……GREAT GAME!!!
Laterz
lone wolf
No, we aren’t interpreting anything wrong. All you have said is you like FFVII, and that we aren’t allowed to say otherwise. There are so many people who claim that FFVII is such a good game, and I respect their opinions. But, when so many people fail to argue why they like it, that’s the problem. If you are going to say your opinion, then state your cause, as well. That will earn them a lot more respect from me. Now, I still won’t agree with them. But I will still respect the fact that they just don’t say these baseless statements, and then run away when the pressure gets too high. That is the point of the argument; to see both sides of the story. So basically what you are doing is saying you like the game, without providing much support behind your posts.
First I dont need your respect, so I dont need to explain to you. Who are you to judge me?
I mean I dont like horseback riding, but I am not going to say agains people practising that that they may never talk about it and I dont care why they like it. I mean a lot of people dont know why they do some things the way they do it.
So still the bottom line is that I like the game and why, well I am not even gonna explain it to you because if I say I like the story you would just say it is simple or something and well that is your opinion and that I like the story is my opinion. I think these discussions can go on and on without being of some use so lets just stop it (or continue if you really like to do this, fine).
The stout FF7 fans simply say: "That’s YOUR opinion, so shut up, I like the game but I am NOT telling YOU why!"
Isn’t it possible to just talk – in a friendly way – about WHY you like the game, and maybe admit that yes, some parts are a bit dumb, and it’s understandable that people who don’t like this, or who prefer that, don’t like FF7 too much.
If all you’re going to yell is that "all you FF7 haters" should get out of this forum and leave the fans to their praising of the game.
Instead, tolerate that maybe there are people who actually want to talk about why they think FF7 isn’t a very good game, and there is no other place to do this than the FF7 forum.
So if you are really unwilling to defend your opinion and explain WHY you think FF7 is good, and at the same time want to complain that people don’t share your opinion and DARE share it, then do not post in here. 🙁
*sigh* I tried not to make this a war….but whatever. you guys completely missed the point of my post. It really wasn’t to defend FF7 but to just stop another one of these pointless FF7 sucks wars from starting again. they really don’t go anywhere. No matter what anyone says people are still going to beleve what they beleve and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
This isn’t a war Nanaki. This is an argument, and hopefully a debate soon. And you are still being hypocritical. You said you weren’t trying to defend FFVII, but you were just trying to basically tell Rabid Monkey and I to shut up for not liking the game? And yes, these really don’t go anywhere, because the FFVII fans almost always never are able to back up what they say. And about your last statement, that is not necessarily true either. I used to love FFVII when I played it through and beat it the first time. But that was years ago. Since then, I have read countless posts and articles about the problems with FFVII, what really made it popular, etc. And I have changed my stance on the game, because these people are right. I was one of the FFVII fanboys at one point, but I realized what truly made this game great. So, we aren’t trying to persuade people to join us or anything like that. We are just expression our opinions.
<I>Originally posted by lone wolf</I>
<B>if the game was so linear, then anyone who decided not to stray of-course and visit old places and look around, would never have found the info about another species like Red 13, you never would have found out the whole story behind Zack, and it would have all been specualtion, plus, you never would have found lucreica (sp?) and have gotten Vincents best weapon or his final Limit Breaker, which to this day, is one of the better one’s i’ve seen…and i have played all the games.</B>
Yeah, that is all true. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn’t required to finish the game. It wasn’t mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent’s best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game.
<B>Also, if the game is so damn easy to beat, I would like to see how quickly you could make a Golden Chocobo to get KOFR aswell as discover the potentiel of the Huge Materia, or even that you could use it!</B>
Is that the best argument you can muster against the game being easy? It’s a pretty bad one, I’ll tell you that. Like I said before, you do not need the KOTR Summon to beat the game, or the Huge Materia. These two aspects of the game make it easier for you to finish it, but they in no way make it impossible to beat if you don’t have the summon or Huge Materia. Also, last time I checked, you don’t beat the game by making a Gold Chocobo or discovering the potential of the Huge Materia.
<B>A) the story is far from linear, sure the game is easy to beat, but not if u try and get everything and do’nt miss anything…godd luck with that without a guide.</B>
Give us reasons why the story is far from linear, and I will be more than happy to read them. And aren’t you basically contradicting yourself when you say the game is easy? Just earlier, you said <I>if</I> the game is easy. That pretty much disregards your whole rant about getting KOTR and Huge Materia.
<B>B)They didn’t leave alot of things without answers, like red 13 and any others like him, the whole story about Zack, which also explains more about cloud’s past, leading right up to before he walks in at the beginning of the game.</B>
I hope you aren’t saying this is something that makes the game so great.
<B>C) it does take a reasonable about of skill and creativity to get the materia working right, and as you said, it was easy, well, does that mean u only would have hated it more if you could keep your HP and gain the skill??? Come on</B>
I admit, that the materia system was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that’s it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out how to work the materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.
<B>D) Some of the areas had more things to offer, just like some of the older one’s, but this offered it in a much different way, like, going back to Kalm after the weapons appear, speak to people, you will surprised with some of the missions you are sent on, they are hard, but the rewards are worth it.</B>
How does this game offer "things" in a much different way. Basically, every Final Fantasy game offers extra scenes or missions after a certain point in the game. So, I don’t see how FFVII was much different from the rest of them.
<B>So just like it was said, it’s a double edge sword, don’t bash people by saying they are not supporting why they like the game, your gunna need stronger points to convince some people that it’s not a very good game…</B>
What the heck are you talking about!? I said the materia system was a double-edged sword. And we aren’t "bashing" people for not supporting their view. There have just been so many cases where FFVII fans cannot provide good arguments against FFVII non-fans. And you are saying we’re the ones that need stronger points?
<B>First I dont need your respect, so I dont need to explain to you. Who are you to judge me?</B>
I never said you needed my respect. I said that I would respect people a lot more if they can provide a cogent argument. And yes, you do need to explain why you think FFVII is such a great game, if you really are that concerned about it.
<B>So still the bottom line is that I like the game and why, well I am not even gonna explain it to you because if I say I like the story you would just say it is simple or something and well that is your opinion and that I like the story is my opinion. I think these discussions can go on and on without being of some use so lets just stop it (or continue if you really like to do this, fine).</B>
When you say you won’t explain it to us, that basically means "I like the game and all, but I’m not sure why I do. I just like it because everyone else does". If you are going to say this isn’t true, then prove me wrong. We have already said the story is simple, and are still waiting for some FFVII fan to come along and try to prove us otherwise.
if the game was so linear, then anyone who decided not to stray of-course and visit old places and look around, would never have found the info about another species like Red 13, you never would have found out the whole story behind Zack, and it would have all been specualtion, plus, you never would have found lucreica (sp?) and have gotten Vincents best weapon or his final Limit Breaker, which to this day, is one of the better one’s i’ve seen…and i have played all the games.
You’re mistaking gameplay for storyline. Sure, it has side quests, but any half-decent RPG does. If having side quests makes a game a good RPG then Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II is an amazing RPG.
Also, if the game is so damn easy to beat, I would like to see how quickly you could make a Golden Chocobo to get KOFR aswell as discover the potentiel of the Huge Materia, or even that you could use it!
Just because you invest some time into a game doesn’t make it hard to beat. Your logic is kind of flawed. If this were a true measure of how difficult games are then I could say that I played Diablo II for several years, therefore it must be the hardest game I ever played because I never spent more time on a single game before. However, that isn’t the case at all and Diablo II was a relatively easy game when I played it. I think you need to put more thought into this.
A) the story is far from linear, sure the game is easy to beat, but not if u try and get everything and do’nt miss anything…godd luck with that without a guide.
Like I said, I didn’t need a guide. However, like I already said in this post, you’re confusing gameplay for storyline.
B)They didn’t leave alot of things without answers, like red 13 and any others like him, the whole story about Zack, which also explains more about cloud’s past, leading right up to before he walks in at the beginning of the game.
That was actually part of my point about how it is a pretty crappy story. They TELL you everything, there is nothing you have to figure out on your own, making it a shallow and weak storyline because you don’t have to put any thought into what you’re seeing happen. It’s just all right there, black and white. If you’re someone that needs everything explained to you then fine, say you like it because of that, but don’t say it is a good story because of that.
C) it does take a reasonable about of skill and creativity to get the materia working right, and as you said, it was easy, well, does that mean u only would have hated it more if you could keep your HP and gain the skill??? Come on
I think you were going for "amount" there. Anyway, it doesn’t. Know why? The strategy guide tells you all of the basic combinations, and most people don’t even need that. It isn’t complicated at all. All you do is put materia into the slots and tinker with the combinations till you have something you like. It really isn’t that hard at all. If you have a hard time using it them you need to go back to playing Mario RPG or something.
and D) Some of the areas had more things to offer, just like some of the older one’s, but this offered it in a much different way, like, going back to Kalm after the weapons appear, speak to people, you will surprised with some of the missions you are sent on, they are hard, but the rewards are worth it.
So wait. In your mind FF7 was the first game to have towns change as you went along? I have news for you. Halfway through FF6 THE ENTIRE WORLD CHANGES. In FF5 SOME OF THE WORLD GETS SUCKED AWAY. As the game progresses in FF5 a lot of towns change as well. To think that FF7 is the first game that ever gave you rewards for backtracking is just insane.
So just like it was said, it’s a double edge sword, don’t bash people by saying they are not supporting why they like the game, your gunna need stronger points to convince some people that it’s not a very good game…
From what I’ve seen you’re the one who needs stronger points.
For starters, Final Fantasy VII was the first Final Fantasy I played. Being from Europe, I had no chance of playing the first six without a net connection (that I didn’t have.) Now, the game blew everything that I had previously seen out of the water. The graphics, for that time, were outstanding. Sure, the characters looked like badly drawn manga pictures, but the backgrounds were awe inspiring, and the FMVs pushed the Playstation to their limits.
The music also has some fantastic scores. One Winged Angel sticks out as a climatic and atmospheric tune to fight to. Aeris’ Theme also is good. There are tracks that annoy the crap out of me (Corneo’s Mansion, Honey Bee Inn, to name two that spring to mind.)
Being the first RPG I played that involved an active time battle system. As a new player to Role Playing Games, I found the materia system easy to pick up and yet flexible enough to customise your characters. It’s possible to overload your characters with materia that lowers hit points and strength too much. If that happens, and you’ve got Barret trying to hit with his weapon when he’s got low stats, you’re going to be at a disadvantage. Okay, so most RPG veterans can get around this and work it out, I’ll admit.
The thing that stands out most for me about the game is how long I played it for. There are a number of games that I played and could not put down. Morrowind, for one. Chrono Trigger, for another. Final Fantasy VII falls into that category. At 14, 15, I was addicted to the game. I would play it, complete it, go back to the start of the game, play again and find new things, complete it, play again and so on… I now have a save game that I’ve done all I can in it, and it took me about two years.
Another part of my reason for playing it to death was because of a friendly rivalry with my class mates. Final Fantasy VII is the ONLY game that I can recall talking to about to people I know in real life. We’d have conversations during Science classes, discussing the game and various parts of the storyline. Yeah, so we were FF7 fanatics in a real life sense, but it was still a good way to pass the time rather than getting bored about Photosynthesis.
Now, for the reasons why the game isn’t that great. Having played it, I wanted to look back on the series. Imagine my excitement when Final Fantasy VI became available. The chance to see the roots of the series. I played it, and I loved every second of the game.
I also played V and IV, and IV quickly became one of my favourite games. The storyline was definitely stunning in the game, with more drive than in other versions I had played. The characters all had a part to play, and none of them annoyed me, ala Cait Sith / Irvine / Quina in the other games. The story in VI also has better twists, keeping us guessing on the villain in a decent way, and building up to the gradual revelation of who he is and how he gets his power, rather than just sort of stumbling into place as in VII.
The subplots in VI are also better. Being able to piece together your party one by one and strengthening your chance of defeating Kefka at the end. I love that flexibility. Love it.
Anyways, VII is a good game, for the reasons I have listed. However, there are better games in the series, and better RPGs in general.
Sure, the characters looked like badly drawn manga pictures, but the backgrounds were awe inspiring, and the FMVs pushed the Playstation to their limits.
I actually had to comment on this because I was having a conversation with acpo and he brought up a good point. If you compare FFVII and FFVIII graphics wise, FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. So really, Square, apparently, didn’t even try all that hard when it came to the graphics for FFVII. So yes, the graphics were better than what we were used to. However, they didn’t really push the Playstion to its limit with FFVII.
Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don???t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it. A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I???m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven???t played it). Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger). FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story.
So it’s not Shakespear or The Godfather, I’ll give you that but FFVII still has a good story to it, not great but solid. There were plenty of plot twists having to do with the nature of Cloud and Sephiroth which I found interesting, and then there’s the Shinra Corporation with the seperate ambitions of the President, Rufus, and the Turks. A good portion of the supporting cast had their stories come to a halt at a certain point in the game and then they were kinda just along for the ride, and that’s not a good thing. About the game shoving the story in your mouth and not giving you any room to think, that’s a bit harsh, there were hints along the way before the game flat out told you what’s going on. I’d also say the story is far from linear, I can see how the gameplay could be considered linear, but as far as story goes there are plenty of side tracks and tangents (I know you never said the story is linear in this quote, but I remember that being an arguement somewhere in this thread). Also FFVII has the most open ended ending of any FF I’ve played, leaving you plenty of room to contemplate the fate of the world (that is until FFVII:AC comes out, but that’s a completely different topic).
It is pretty much a given that the battle system was not new at all. Just about every single Final Fantasy (or even RPG for that matter) had followed a similar formula before that, and I would hope that no one would argue that point further. Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called ???innovative???. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your ???limit??? you are no longer able to use the ???fight??? command. This makes it a pain to save the limit. You either use another command or skip your turn. Later on in the game this might not be a huge problem due to the fact that more command materia becomes available. However, in the early stages you pretty much have 4 options: use your limit, use magic, use an item, or skip that character???s turn. Using magic would not be a smart idea because then you may not have it for later battles when you really need it, the same holds true for using an item. Using your limit is often times undesirable because it means you will just be using it on an enemy you could much easier defeat by attacking normally, and skipping turns is always a horrid choice because you???re basically brought down to a 2-person party. This is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. I repeat, this is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. What is the limit system then? Flawed. Even later in the game your characters shouldn???t HAVE to have another command that they can use in order to not worry about using their limit.
I agree with your first point, this is a tried and true battle system, basically the battle system of FFVI with a few new tricks. However the Limit system is hardly flawed. Limit breaks in FFVII are meant to be powerful attacks that a character can use when they get enraged enough, each time the character takes damage they get madder and madder until eventually they can’t take it anymore and are able to release that anger in the form of an uber attack. It simply doesn’t make sense to be able to save an attack for later use when it’s based on the character being in a heated state of passion.
As for the materia system, it???s not a bad system, but I don???t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game. The only thing that is really unique about any one member of the party is their limit breaks, which I already discussed. Besides, there isn???t really anything ???unique??? about the limits anyway, but I digress. As said, the materia system makes the game far too easy by allowing every character to use every command and spell in the game. If you want a real challenge then you need a game where each character has unique abilities that are melded with the rest of the party in order to make a fully functioning unit. NOT a system where every damn member of the party can have the exact same materia and just flick away any enemy you see without any effort. That???s not a challenge game, that???s a game being made for simpletons.
Unless you invest an obscene amount of time into leveling materia you can’t have every member of your party use every command that you’ve acquired at any point in the game. Yes every character can use every spell (much like FFVI’s Esper system, no?), as well as every special command. This does not however make every character a cookie cutter until end game (where many people put in that obscene time investment), it’s simply not a good idea to give Aeris or Vincent cover materia, or load Barret up with every spell you have. Overall I found the materia system to be very solid, the only gripe I have with it has to do with HP plus and MP plus materia of which I agree the game would have been more challenging without, but that does not ruin the whole system. Of course the set role vs cutomization of characters is a matter of prefference (I prefer the FFTactics way of going about this issue myself, but that’s not what this is about). As far as FFVII being made for simpletons goes, simpletons don’t like to read they just wanna kill things, in the rpg world I’d say FFVIII or FFX have a bigger problem where you can just use summons go breeze through most bosses.
There was nothing new about the gameplay other than the fact that the camera angle could be changed on the world map, which just goes back to the graphics and ???visually appealing??? comments I made before, so I won???t bother touching on that.
No, there wasn’t much new about the gameplay (unless you count minigames in this category), but old gameplay does not equal bad gameplay. Actually now that I think about it the gameplay in the FF series has remained pretty stagnant from FFIV up until FFX, that’s six games of the same solid gameplay if we criticize FFVII for this we should apply the same criticism to FFV-FFIX.
So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!??? The answer to that is simple. First of all, the game was marketed to all hell. It was the first Final Fantasy, or role playing game for that matter, that I remember actually seeing ads for on the TV. There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII. Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV. It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG???s or had the mindset of ???RPG???s are for nerds???. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.
Is this still the most popular? I had thought FFX overtook it. Yeah FFVII was the first FF I saw a tv comercial for too, but I had decided to buy it when I first saw a preview for it in one of the game mags months before they started showing comercials. Although this is not the first rpg, or the first squaresoft game for that matter that I saw tv comercials for. Secret of Evermore would hold that title, and I believe those comercials were shown on MTV too, so even back in the SNES days square was trying to get away from the "videogames are for nerds" or "rpgs are for nerds" (which I should add still seemed to have that stigma after FFVII came out), and before you say it I know Secret of Evermore was an action rpg, but that’s still an rpg. Of course square showed the in game movies in the commercials, they’ve done the same with every FF afterwards and most other game companies do the same thing, it’s just good business to show the best looking part of your product on tv, hollywood is guilty of the same thing. Even after my rebuttle on this point I fail to see how a marketing strategy has any bearing on wether or not a game is good. As far as your last line in the above quote goes, yes this is a nice game, fairly easy (I find that almost all console rpgs are), but certainly required some thought, even pong requires some thought.
As if that weren???t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn???t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game. Just flip from page to page until the game was done. For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn???t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn???t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own. Then a family member got me one just because, I still don???t know why. I decided I might as well go back through with it and see if there was anything I missed. Know what I missed? Two treasure chests. One had a Phoenix Down in it and the other had an Elixir. I hope that will serve as proof that you do not need a strategy guide to play this game because it IS NOT a hard game to play.
Once again I don’t see a connection between the release of a strategy guide and the quality of the game. It’s not like FFVII is the first FF to do this either, I’ve personally seen an original guide to FFVI that’s been around since the release of that game. If we use something like a strategy guide as valid criticism then I can say just about every NES/SNES game suffers from the same because of the nintendo help line where you payed per minute to have someone tell you what to do (other games companies probably had/have a similar service).
It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That???s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you???re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series.
Knew any better than what? Many people were fans of the series from the SNES and wanted to play the next installment. Others saw something they liked on tv and decided to go out and buy it, big deal, almost all of modern western society is based on that concept. If I were to give one reason for this game being such a success and even seven years after it’s release gaining new fans (when all marketing has stopped) that reason would be simple word of mouth.
If you compare FFVII and FFVIII graphics wise, FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. So really, Square, apparently, didn’t even try all that hard when it came to the graphics for FFVII. So yes, the graphics were better than what we were used to. However, they didn’t really push the Playstion to its limit with FFVII.
Of course later games are going to have better graphics. FFVII was square’s first game on the playstation and it’s only natural that the graphics will get better as time goes on and developers learn the ins and outs and neat little tricks a system can do. It’s not that they didn’t try hard, look at every other game released before or around the same date as FFVII, at least 95% of those games will have worse graphics than FFVII.
People have been complaining of the lack of quality responses by FFVII fans, I hope I’ve rectified that situation.
I actually had to comment on this because I was having a conversation with acpo and he brought up a good point. If you compare FFVII and FFVIII graphics wise, FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. So really, Square, apparently, didn’t even try all that hard when it came to the graphics for FFVII. So yes, the graphics were better than what we were used to. However, they didn’t really push the Playstion to its limit with FFVII.
Okay, maybe I should’ve phrased myself better by saying that they pushed the limits of the Playstation with their current knowledge and comfort zone with the console.
The graphics of FFVI were better than the ones in IV, and they were on the same console. People learn new tricks and have new technologies available to them as they get to know the console.
A minor argument, really. I know the characters could’ve looked better.
The graphics when compared to FFVIII and FFIX are absolutely rubbish. But, still, it was an outbreak in PlayStatin history when it came out. The graphics were COOL in 1997 when it first came out.
What did it for me was the storyline. I wouldn’t consider it weak at all. Nor would i ocnsider the FFVIII storyline weak. The FFIX storyline was the weakest out of the three.
In fact the storyline for FFVII was very meaningful. I really could feel for Cloud and co. and once you got into it, the storyline fitted into place nicely.
The materia system had its good and bad points. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduced your maximum HP by 20%. And unless you have mastered the ‘all’ materia, the HP and MP plus materia weren’t cheap.
Back, to the storyline. I didn;t really see any corniness to it, or un-origninalness either.
Back to summons, Square went REAL wrong here.
While on VI, VIII and IX your espers/GF;s and Eidolons increased in Power, those on VII did not. Shiva and Ifrit being crap towards the end of the game, doing just 400 damage on average.
I also disliked the weapon/stat relationship. Although this is a popular method used on many, i would prefer to have had the freedom to personalise my stats rateher than have them fixed.
Lastly i will go for the freedom.
Once you have the Highwind, there are numerous things that you can do, form fighting the 3 wepoans to doing the Chocobo quest, it was very fun and exciting to do.
Yo!
There were plenty of plot twists having to do with the nature of Cloud and Sephiroth which I found interesting, and then there’s the Shinra Corporation with the seperate ambitions of the President, Rufus, and the Turks.
I personally didn’t find the "plot twists" between Clound and Seph to be all that interesting, but more predictable than anything. As for Shinra, you really don’t see enough of any of their respective characters to get into the story. Again, that just adds to the story basically being handed to you at face value. There is no more, and no less, than what is said directly to the person playing the game, which makes the story weak.
A good portion of the supporting cast had their stories come to a halt at a certain point in the game and then they were kinda just along for the ride, and that’s not a good thing.
Thanks for brining that up, I totally forgot about it.
About the game shoving the story in your mouth and not giving you any room to think, that’s a bit harsh, there were hints along the way before the game flat out told you what’s going on.
First, the longest I can remember going without it actually flat out telling me what was happening is 5 minutes. Second, the fact that it DOES tell you EVERYTHING at some point was the main point I was trying to make, not just that some information isn’t delayed enough.
I’d also say the story is far from linear, I can see how the gameplay could be considered linear, but as far as story goes there are plenty of side tracks and tangents (I know you never said the story is linear in this quote, but I remember that being an arguement somewhere in this thread).
You’re making the same mistake lone wolf made. You’re confusing gameplay and storyline. The gameplay isn’t linear because of side quests and such, but the story IS.
Also FFVII has the most open ended ending of any FF I’ve played, leaving you plenty of room to contemplate the fate of the world (that is until FFVII:AC comes out, but that’s a completely different topic).
The ending is the one thing I thought needed more of an explanation. It was basically just a cop out so that Square wouldn’t have to come up with an ending. That way it is "artistic" and "open for interpretation" rather than possibly having people hate it. After pretty much spelling out EVERYTHING in the game it doesn’t make sense to have such an open ending. The fact is that, like I said, it is a horrid ending that they didn’t put any effort into.
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Limit breaks in FFVII are meant to be powerful attacks that a character can use when they get enraged enough, each time the character takes damage they get madder and madder until eventually they can’t take it anymore and are able to release that anger in the form of an uber attack. It simply doesn’t make sense to be able to save an attack for later use when it’s based on the character being in a heated state of passion.
You see an innovative system. Know what I see? A poor excuse (that being "well they get mad") so that Square didn’t have to work all the bugs out in a flawed system.
Yes every character can use every spell (much like FFVI’s Esper system, no?), as well as every special command. This does not however make every character a cookie cutter…
Yes it does. Any character can play whatever role you want them to be; just as the cookie dough can take the shape of whatever cookie you want it to. Sounds like the term "cookie-cutter" fits to me.
Also, I didn’t like that part of FFVI, to be honest. Also, at least in FFVI they all had their own unique abilities that often times were more powerful than the magic that they could use, so brining the magic system of FFVI up really isn’t valid. If you???re going to say something about the limit system in FFVII, don???t bother. They weren???t abilities you could just use whenever you wanted and because they were a one time use only sort of deal, it really didn???t add or subtract much from the character.
As far as FFVII being made for simpletons goes, simpletons don’t like to read they just wanna kill things, in the rpg world I’d say FFVIII or FFX have a bigger problem where you can just use summons go breeze through most bosses.
Every FF has a way to do that, and most RPG’s do. FFVII requires less thought than most RPG’s because of how easily you can make a character be whatever you need at the time, completely removing the challenge of having to think about who you should have in your party.
No, there wasn’t much new about the gameplay (unless you count minigames in this category), but old gameplay does not equal bad gameplay. Actually now that I think about it the gameplay in the FF series has remained pretty stagnant from FFIV up until FFX, that’s six games of the same solid gameplay if we criticize FFVII for this we should apply the same criticism to FFV-FFIX.
One point I have to make and one aspect of what I said that I have to clear up. First, FFVII was far from the first RPG to have mini-games so to say that they were "new" starting with FFVII is laughable. Also, I never said that I was criticizing the battle system or the gameplay, I was more or cutting everyone that might say, "well the battle system and gameplay were new" off at the pass. I have nothing wrong with either, aside from the limit system and the materia system.
Although this is not the first rpg, or the first squaresoft game for that matter that I saw tv comercials for.
Note that I said "There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII". My point wasn’t that it was on tv, but that it was on tv so much.
…and before you say it I know Secret of Evermore was an action rpg, but that’s still an rpg.
Actually, I wasn’t going to. Moving on…
Of course square showed the in game movies in the commercials, they’ve done the same with every FF afterwards and most other game companies do the same thing, it’s just good business to show the best looking part of your product on tv, hollywood is guilty of the same thing. Even after my rebuttle on this point I fail to see how a marketing strategy has any bearing on wether or not a game is good. As far as your last line in the above quote goes, yes this is a nice game, fairly easy (I find that almost all console rpgs are), but certainly required some thought, even pong requires some thought.
I guess you didn’t pick up on the fact that I was moving away from how I think the game is bad and more to why I believe it was (and is) so popular. Let me explain. It is common practice in writing to introduce new ideas with a topic sentence in a new paragraph. In this case mine was, "So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!???". This meant that I intended to answer that question to anyone that wished to bring up that point for future discussion. I hope that clarifies what I was actually talking about in said paragraph and why I brought up said strategy guide. I wasn’t trying to say why I thought the game was bad, but rather giving examples as to why I thought it was such a popular game while believing that it isn’t a very good game.
Once again I don’t see a connection between the release of a strategy guide and the quality of the game.
See my previous remark.
It’s not like FFVII is the first FF to do this either, I’ve personally seen an original guide to FFVI that’s been around since the release of that game. If we use something like a strategy guide as valid criticism then I can say just about every NES/SNES game suffers from the same because of the nintendo help line where you payed per minute to have someone tell you what to do (other games companies probably had/have a similar service).
I was basically saying that it was the first game that had the strategy guide pretty much sold WITH it, which added to the number of people that played it because they didn’t have to think. I was not using it as a direct criticism of the game itself, but rather some of the fan base. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.
Knew any better than what?
Than to believe it was a good game.
Of course later games are going to have better graphics. FFVII was square’s first game on the playstation and it’s only natural that the graphics will get better as time goes on and developers learn the ins and outs and neat little tricks a system can do. It’s not that they didn’t try hard, look at every other game released before or around the same date as FFVII, at least 95% of those games will have worse graphics than FFVII.
It was more just a clarification than anything else. The fact is that the system was/is capable of better graphics than were presented in FFVII, so it wasn’t pushing the system "to the limit". My comment had nothing to do with the fact that FFVII had better graphics than a lot of the games at the time, or that it didn???t, just that its graphics weren???t the best the system could produce. I don’t see how that is a hard concept to grasp.
SephirothBizzaro, one question before I comment on anything you’ve said. What are the RPG’s you’ve played?
I personally didn’t find the "plot twists" between Clound and Seph to be all that interesting, but more predictable than anything. As for Shinra, you really don’t see enough of any of their respective characters to get into the story. Again, that just adds to the story basically being handed to you at face value. There is no more, and no less, than what is said directly to the person playing the game, which makes the story weak.
So because you personally didn’t find the plot twists between Cloud and Sephiroth to be interesting that autimatically makes them bad? Also you ctiticize the game for flat out telling you what’s going on, then when a sub story with Shinra is thrown in where the game leaves enough room for the players to make their own inferences about the supporting characters you say there isn’t enough story. I should also note that we see more of the Shinra than just about every other FF villain from the pre-playstation games. One of the reasons you might find the story predictable is that you’re analyzing it 7 years after you first expreinced the story, everything is clearer in hindsight. I’ll give you that it’s not the most original story ever, this is the classic girl in distress scenario with a few tweaks, but that does not make it a bad story.
First, the longest I can remember going without it actually flat out telling me what was happening is 5 minutes. Second, the fact that it DOES tell you EVERYTHING at some point was the main point I was trying to make, not just that some information isn’t delayed enough.
I seem to remember hints at what is to come being given to the player much longer than 5 minutes before the forshadowed event happens. Just because the game lets the player know what’s going on does not translate to a bad story, what it does produce is a coherent story instead of a disjointed series of events. Of course the main problem we have here is that both of us are going off of memory, and unless we both play through FFVII again this is difficult problem to work around.
You’re making the same mistake lone wolf made. You’re confusing gameplay and storyline. The gameplay isn’t linear because of side quests and such, but the story IS.
I’m not confusing storyline and gameplay. The gameplay is a pretty straight forward point A to point B affair until the highwind comes into play. The story evolves from a fight against a corrupt corporation to finding out the motives of Sephiroth, and culminates in a final showdown for revenge/save the planet. With plenty of side stories along the way having to do with the supporting characters and the Shinra. Linear story would have you fighting the Shrinra as the main enemy from the begining to end game. The final goals of the characters shift several times during the course of the story, which makes the story non-linear.
The ending is the one thing I thought needed more of an explanation. It was basically just a cop out so that Square wouldn’t have to come up with an ending. That way it is "artistic" and "open for interpretation" rather than possibly having people hate it. After pretty much spelling out EVERYTHING in the game it doesn’t make sense to have such an open ending. The fact is that, like I said, it is a horrid ending that they didn’t put any effort into.
This was not a cop out ending, the game ended how the writers felt was the best way for it to end. Also realize that having an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending is much riskier, with a greater chance for people to hate it than the standard YAY, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY NOW ending. The fact is you didn’t like the ending, not that it is horrid, and unless your’re privy to insider info that none of us are there is no way of knowing how much effort they put into the ending of this game.
You see an innovative system. Know what I see? A poor excuse (that being "well they get mad") so that Square didn’t have to work all the bugs out in a flawed system.
I never said I saw an innovative system, I was merely illustrating how Limit Breaks make sense within the confines of FFVII. Just because you can’t save a powerful attack to make boss fights easier than they already are does not mean the system is flawed, it means that the designers realized that these attacks were much more powerful than what a character would normally have at his/her/it’s disposal and found a way to balance gameplay a bit by not enabling gamers to go into every boss fight with an uber attack ready for use in the first round.
Yes it does. Any character can play whatever role you want them to be; just as the cookie dough can take the shape of whatever cookie you want it to. Sounds like the term "cookie-cutter" fits to me.
Yes the characters in FFVII are more versatile than those pre-FFVI, but unless you’re putting an obscene amount of time into training your characters Aeris will simply not be a heavy physical damage dealer.
Every FF has a way to do that, and most RPG’s do. FFVII requires less thought than most RPG’s because of how easily you can make a character be whatever you need at the time, completely removing the challenge of having to think about who you should have in your party.
How does customizing a character for what your needs are at the time take any less thought than choosing characters for your party based on their strengths and what your needs are at the time?
Note that I said "There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII". My point wasn’t that it was on tv, but that it was on tv so much.
Do you seriously think that if Squaresoft had the financial ability at the time to mass market the past FFs as they did with FFVII and beyond that they wouldn’t do it in a heartbeat?
I guess you didn’t pick up on the fact that I was moving away from how I think the game is bad and more to why I believe it was (and is) so popular. Let me explain. It is common practice in writing to introduce new ideas with a topic sentence in a new paragraph. In this case mine was, "So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!???". This meant that I intended to answer that question to anyone that wished to bring up that point for future discussion. I hope that clarifies what I was actually talking about in said paragraph and why I brought up said strategy guide. I wasn’t trying to say why I thought the game was bad, but rather giving examples as to why I thought it was such a popular game while believing that it isn’t a very good game.
Your topic sentence: "So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!???". The question within that sentence is "how can it suck?" To answer this question you would need to explain how it sucks.
I was basically saying that it was the first game that had the strategy guide pretty much sold WITH it, which added to the number of people that played it because they didn’t have to think. I was not using it as a direct criticism of the game itself, but rather some of the fan base. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.
The strategy guide was not pretty much sold with the game. In every game store I’ve been to there is the games section, and then off in the corner somewhere or by the checkout is the section where strategy guides are placed, it’s not like the strategy guide is sitting directly next to the game when you go to buy it. In your original post it seemed that you were offering the strategy guide as more proof of this being an easy game, which makes it seem like a direct criticism of the game.
Than to believe it was a good game.
How should someone come to the belief that this is a good or bad game without first purchasing and playing it?
It was more just a clarification than anything else. The fact is that the system was/is capable of better graphics than were presented in FFVII, so it wasn’t pushing the system "to the limit". My comment had nothing to do with the fact that FFVII had better graphics than a lot of the games at the time, or that it didn???t, just that its graphics weren???t the best the system could produce. I don’t see how that is a hard concept to grasp.
I completely agree that the playstation is capable of much better graphics than FFVII, however you also stated that square simply didn’t "try all that hard" with regard to the graphics. My comments about other games of the same time period were meant to refute that statement. Guess we both need to work on our reading comprehension.
So because you personally didn’t find the plot twists between Cloud and Sephiroth to be interesting that autimatically makes them bad?
I should have clarified here again. Because I said "personally" I didn’t expect it to be taken as my argument, I was more or less saying that the plot twists didn’t seem all that grand to me and that is one of the reasons why I, personally, don’t like the game. Though, you do have to admit that the whole part with the 3 Clouds in, I believe, the Life Stream was pretty silly.
Also you ctiticize the game for flat out telling you what’s going on, then when a sub story with Shinra is thrown in where the game leaves enough room for the players to make their own inferences about the supporting characters you say there isn’t enough story.
That’s because, when it has to do with the main characters, everything is basically said flat out. However, you see the main characters all the time so you don’t need it all given to you right at once. On the other hand, when it comes to Shinra you don’t see them nearly as much as the main characters, meaning you need more given to you when you see them, and it just isn’t there.
I should also note that we see more of the Shinra than just about every other FF villain from the pre-playstation games.
That’s because there are somewhere around 7-10 Shinra characters in the game, you would HAVE to see more of Shinra due to that reason alone.
One of the reasons you might find the story predictable is that you’re analyzing it 7 years after you first expreinced the story, everything is clearer in hindsight. I’ll give you that it’s not the most original story ever, this is the classic girl in distress scenario with a few tweaks, but that does not make it a bad story.
Even so, the story wouldn’t have gotten old after playing through the game twice if it was a good story. There are some games that people can play over and over. When it comes to FF7 I honestly can’t see how someone that has played other RPG’s can sit down and play it again. I just see the story as way too simplistic. The only problem is that if I state all my reasons why and the other person still doesn’t think it is then there really isn’t much more I can say on the matter that will convince that person. Though, on that same note, there is no way anyone can ever convince me it is a good story.
I seem to remember hints at what is to come being given to the player much longer than 5 minutes before the forshadowed event happens.
Ok, so maybe I pushed that a little too far. However, the fact is that there are very few aspects of the plot kept from the player and often times they are not hidden for very long. For me it is very hard to stay interested in a game that just hands everything to you and doesn’t keep you guessing. FFVII simply did not keep me guessing at all. It’s just like reading a book. If I don’t find out anything new when the ending hits me then it really isn’t that great of a book because it could have been stopped much sooner.
Just because the game lets the player know what’s going on does not translate to a bad story, what it does produce is a coherent story instead of a disjointed series of events. Of course the main problem we have here is that both of us are going off of memory, and unless we both play through FFVII again this is difficult problem to work around.
A story can be coherent while still leaving you guessing. This is what square basically did. They made the game so that anyone could understand the story, consequently making it very basic. It was easy to follow, and as a result became dull. Of course that could always go back to the attempt to market to younger players and such, which they were most defiantly trying to do and BZ pretty much illustrated with his first post. I guess I should revise what I said, and admit that for younger players it is probably spot on when it came to the comprehension level of the player, but for the older players the story tends to lack depths, and ends up becoming a sub par story. Also, I don’t plan on replaying it but you’re more than welcome to :P.
I’m not confusing storyline and gameplay. The gameplay is a pretty straight forward point A to point B affair until the highwind comes into play. The story evolves from a fight against a corrupt corporation to finding out the motives of Sephiroth, and culminates in a final showdown for revenge/save the planet. With plenty of side stories along the way having to do with the supporting characters and the Shinra. Linear story would have you fighting the Shrinra as the main enemy from the begining to end game. The final goals of the characters shift several times during the course of the story, which makes the story non-linear.
The reason I said that I felt you were confusing the two is because you said gameplay was linear, when it is the one aspect of the game that kind of changes a little every now and then due to the mini-games. Granted every game has them, but it would be wrong of me to deny that they are there in FFVII. As for the story being linear, the reason it should be considered as such is because the plot basically follows this format. "Shinra is bad, we should stop them." "ok!" "Mako is good, we should help conserve it." "ok!" "Seph is bad, he killed Aeris, we should kill him!" "ok!" I know there is more packed in than that, but the point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t really any options as to what to do in the actual game itself. It’s basically just one track, almost caveman like. "THIS BAD STOP IT! THIS GOOD HELP IT!" Or, if you would prefer, "SHINRA BAD HULK SMACH!"
This was not a cop out ending, the game ended how the writers felt was the best way for it to end. Also realize that having an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending is much riskier, with a greater chance for people to hate it than the standard YAY, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY NOW ending. The fact is you didn’t like the ending, not that it is horrid, and unless your’re privy to insider info that none of us are there is no way of knowing how much effort they put into the ending of this game.
You can still have an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending that required effort. It was basically like the second Matrix movie. It set itself up for a sequel, but you knew if the sequel (or third installment in The Matrix Reloaded case) was ever made it would be really crappy. The ending to FFVII was just too basic. Now, had they left more open for interpretation throughout the rest of the game then it would have been fine, but to go from handing the player everything to telling him or her nothing just doesn’t cut it. That also goes back to the point you made about the game wrapping everything together (not sure if you said that in this post or not, but I’m pretty sure you said it somewhere), the ending defiantly does not do that at all.
I never said I saw an innovative system, I was merely illustrating how Limit Breaks make sense within the confines of FFVII. Just because you can’t save a powerful attack to make boss fights easier than they already are does not mean the system is flawed, it means that the designers realized that these attacks were much more powerful than what a character would normally have at his/her/it’s disposal and found a way to balance gameplay a bit by not enabling gamers to go into every boss fight with an uber attack ready for use in the first round.
But then limit breaks are pretty much pointless. If you HAVE to use them when you get them then the trigger shouldn’t be "well you took this much damage, so now you’re MAD!" For example, in FFVI there were limit breaks as well. However, each character had a different situation that would trigger it. Most were "near death" if I remember right. In any event, the "Limits" would get triggered in a situation that they were NEEDED, not what the character just happened to take a certain amount of damage. That is why I see it as a flawed system. Basically Square tried to improve upon the idea of "limits", but it wasn’t practical.
Yes the characters in FFVII are more versatile than those pre-FFVI, but unless you’re putting an obscene amount of time into training your characters Aeris will simply not be a heavy physical damage dealer.
Yeah, but Aeris dies fairly early in the game. Everyone else is capable of a good amount of physical damage, meaning anyone can be a cookie-cutter.
How does customizing a character for what your needs are at the time take any less thought than choosing characters for your party based on their strengths and what your needs are at the time?
This depends on what game you’re talking about. If you’re talking about FFVI, for example, I know I had a much harder time when it came to splitting my party in those times where you needed 2-3 different parties because I had to try and play upon everyone’s strength???s and weaknesses. In FFVII you have, I believe, one case like that. However, even then you can make any member of your party whatever you need him or her to be at the time due to materia. In FFVI the only character that can really assume any ability/strength you need him to is Gogo. The fact is that Relm is NEVER going to be powerful with physical attacks, and sometimes you are pretty much forced to use her.
Now, if you’re talking about RPG’s in general, there are a good number that you don’t have more than 3-4 characters throughout the whole game, with FFIV having 5 in a party in some points. In games like this you’re forced to work with the abilities you have, and there is NO WAY (usually) for a character to get an ability from another character. In both cases there is more thought required than "Well, I need a healer so I’ll give all of my healing materia to this character".
Do you seriously think that if Squaresoft had the financial ability at the time to mass market the past FFs as they did with FFVII and beyond that they wouldn’t do it in a heartbeat?
I honestly would question if they would have. I believe they did have the ability to do so with FFVI and they didn’t. However, even if they did, I don’t think it would have been in the same manner as FFVII. However, this is all speculation on either of our parts.
Your topic sentence: "So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!???". The question within that sentence is "how can it suck?" To answer this question you would need to explain how it sucks.
Actually, the way it is worded would mean to imply that "you want to know why the game is so popular, despite the fact that it is so horrible, I will tell you.??? I had already said why it sucked, and was going to focus on why it was popular despite that. I’m pretty sure my meaning was clear.
The strategy guide was not pretty much sold with the game. In every game store I’ve been to there is the games section, and then off in the corner somewhere or by the checkout is the section where strategy guides are placed, it’s not like the strategy guide is sitting directly next to the game when you go to buy it. In your original post it seemed that you were offering the strategy guide as more proof of this being an easy game, which makes it seem like a direct criticism of the game.
When it first came out, no matter where you went, the clerk would ask you if you wanted the strategy guide for the game as well. I know this because it happened when I bought it. It happened when my friend bought it. It happened when my cousin bought it. It happened all three times, in three different stores, completely separate from each other. As I said, I offered the strategy guide as an example as to why the game was so popular even though it wasn???t all that great of a game.
How should someone come to the belief that this is a good or bad game without first purchasing and playing it?
They can rent it before they buy it.
I completely agree that the playstation is capable of much better graphics than FFVII, however you also stated that square simply didn’t "try all that hard" with regard to the graphics. My comments about other games of the same time period were meant to refute that statement. Guess we both need to work on our reading comprehension.
But the ONLY point I was trying to make is that the graphics weren’t nearly as good as they could have been. FFVIII was only two years removed from FFVII, and in two years times the graphics improved tenfold. That’s where the statement came from. It’s not my fault all the other companies weren’t trying as hard as Square was, even though they weren’t trying hard either.
<B>Though, you do have to admit that the whole part with the 3 Clouds in, I believe, the Life Stream was pretty silly.</B>
I admit it. Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.
<B>That’s because, when it has to do with the main characters, everything is basically said flat out. However, you see the main characters all the time so you don’t need it all given to you right at once. On the other hand, when it comes to Shinra you don’t see them nearly as much as the main characters, meaning you need more given to you when you see them, and it just isn’t there.</B>
This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.
<B>Even so, the story wouldn’t have gotten old after playing through the game twice if it was a good story. There are some games that people can play over and over. When it comes to FF7 I honestly can’t see how someone that has played other RPG’s can sit down and play it again. I just see the story as way too simplistic. The only problem is that if I state all my reasons why and the other person still doesn’t think it is then there really isn’t much more I can say on the matter that will convince that person.</B>
Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That’s it? That’s the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things. That shows how easy it is to understand this storyline.
<B>Though, on that same note, there is no way anyone can ever convince me it is a good story.</B>
Well, that may be true, partly because no one has really provided a good argument about why it is yet. But I’m sure that if some FFVII fan cares enough about this, he/she will try.
<B>Ok, so maybe I pushed that a little too far. However, the fact is that there are very few aspects of the plot kept from the player and often times they are not hidden for very long. For me it is very hard to stay interested in a game that just hands everything to you and doesn’t keep you guessing. FFVII simply did not keep me guessing at all. It’s just like reading a book. If I don’t find out anything new when the ending hits me then it really isn’t that great of a book because it could have been stopped much sooner.</B>
Didn’t someone earlier state that FFVII offered twists and extra scenes, bonuses, and other crap that adds to the greatness of the game? Yeah, I agree with you RM. There is basically nothing that you actually have to go out of your way to figure out about the storyline. You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.
__________________________________________________
Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.
<B>As for the story being linear, the reason it should be considered as such is because the plot basically follows this format. "Shinra is bad, we should stop them." "ok!" "Mako is good, we should help conserve it." "ok!" "Seph is bad, he killed Aeris, we should kill him!" "ok!" I know there is more packed in than that, but the point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t really any options as to what to do in the actual game itself. It’s basically just one track, almost caveman like. "THIS BAD STOP IT! THIS GOOD HELP IT!" Or, if you would prefer, "SHINRA BAD HULK SMACH!"</B>
Ha ha, what an excellent synopsis you have there!
<B>The ending to FFVII was just too basic. Now, had they left more open for interpretation throughout the rest of the game then it would have been fine, but to go from handing the player everything to telling him or her nothing just doesn’t cut it. That also goes back to the point you made about the game wrapping everything together (not sure if you said that in this post or not, but I’m pretty sure you said it somewhere), the ending defiantly does not do that at all.</B>
I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline.
<B>Now, if you’re talking about RPG’s in general, there are a good number that you don’t have more than 3-4 characters throughout the whole game, with FFIV having 5 in a party in some points. In games like this you’re forced to work with the abilities you have, and there is NO WAY (usually) for a character to get an ability from another character. In both cases there is more thought required than "Well, I need a healer so I’ll give all of my healing materia to this character".</B>
Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn’t see this at all in FFVII.
<B>When it first came out, no matter where you went, the clerk would ask you if you wanted the strategy guide for the game as well. I know this because it happened when I bought it. It happened when my friend bought it. It happened when my cousin bought it. It happened all three times, in three different stores, completely separate from each other. As I said, I offered the strategy guide as an example as to why the game was so popular even though it wasn???t all that great of a game.</B>
Yes, valid point. When I purchase games, clerks would more often than not ask me to go ahead and get the player’s guide with it. But, that’s not to further advertise the game, but more just to enhance their business. Also, they did it, because they actually want their customers to have fun with their games, and come back for more services in the future. With FFVII, I can’t remember how many times the clerk asked me to get the player’s guide along with the game. I got so sick and tired of it, that I just bought it to get the guy to shut up, not because I wanted to get it.
These posts take way too long to do.
Damn, you people can TALK! I’m not getting involved because I don’t have enough time to really reply to every point made, and I don’t feel like it aside, and if I did say anything, then you’d protest that I didn’t have a valid argument because of my lack of great post length. All I’ll say is this: is this thread like kicking a dead horse? This subject is pretty damn tired if you ask me, but whatever. To each his own.
Yes, the FFVII non-fans can talk. But, obviously, not the FFVII fanatics. For some odd reason, they just can’t seem to come up with a descent reply to all of these valid points.
And that is what the point of threads like these are; is to talk and debate. That’s what makes it fun to read.
I really don’t think the length of your post would determine anything. If it takes you a full page, or just 10 sentences to make a strong point, that is all that really matters. I am interested to read what you can say about these points, when you do have the time on your hands.
Just so you know some of the "is" are suppose to be "isnt".
The reason the FFVII fans dont talk is because what is the point?
No, the reason they don’t talk, is because they don’t have a valid point. Even if they did, I really haven’t seen one yet. That’s why FFVII fans always use this excuse.
<B>No matter what we say. You are going to say that "The story was to obvious" "The game was to easy" "The ending sucked".</B>
Well, yeah, that is the point. We just want someone to explain to us why the story is so fantastic, why the game isn’t so easy, and why the ending didn’t suck. Also, we want to know what makes this the greatest game of all time, instead of people just using "There is no point", as their scapegoat. If you actually believe FFVII is the greatest game of all time, then stand up for what you believe in.
<B>We cant change your mind just like you cant change mine that FFVII is the greatest game of all time.</B>
Well, my opinion has changed on the game throughout the years.
<B>I think the materia system was Hands down the best system for magic & summoning yet. I have yet to find an equal. Played every FF so far and still been dissapointed.</B>
Why is it hands down the best system for magic and summoning yet? What makes every other Final Fantasy’s system so dissapointing?
<B>I thought the story and its twist where compelling and brillant.</B>
Again, why is the story so compelling and brilliant? You aren’t helping yourself at all by just saying baseless statements. And what twists were there?
<B>There is a side quest as good as Gold Saucer yet.</B>
The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to.
<B>There is a dramatic scene like Aeris death that has caught me off guard like that either.</B>
I wouldn’t call that dramatic. She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.
Also, have you played the Final Fantasy games before FFVII?
<B>So to agrue is pointless. You have you mind set and so do I. So that is why we Hard-Core fans dont agrue.</B>
For the last time, that statement is wrong! You hardcore fans don’t choose not to argue because it is pointless. You choose not to argue because you know that you can’t provide us with good reasons as to why you believe what you do about the game. And whether you believe it or not, this is how it goes; Rabid Monkey has given enough solid evidence to prove FFVII is not a good game. Others, like me, have added some more tidbits of information to back up his evidence. No one here has yet to prove that FFVII is the greatest game of all time. Even so, FFVII has not been proven to be a great game either.
My point exactly smokey. You have said everything I said you would say in my reply. No matter what I say you are going to say that it is wrong. I still remember the first time I found out that Cloud wasnt a SOILDER. Or going to the Whore House. Dressing up in Slum City. Watch Aeris die for the first time. Sitting by the fire with Red XIII’s Grandpa. Finding all the Limit Breaks. Building up my Materia. From buying Fire to making it into Master. Breeding Chocobos. Finding Treasures. Following Septhroith to watch him Kill Aeris. Getting the Highwind. Fighting the Turks. Learning Jenova. Escaping Midgar. Finding out Cloud was Zack. (Basically). Finding that damn Knights of the Round Summon. By myself I might add. lol. What about Battle Square. Did you forget about getting Yuffie. Taking her home and Taking her up the Tower with out Leveling her useless butt up. Do you not remember thinking what the hell is Jenova? Or what caused Septhroith to go mad? You dont remember the Flashbacks that werent yours? Or the lies. Did you forget about buying new weapons and seeing the Difference on your Character. Or picking the best weapon with Slots for your materia. Having to be precise about what you use and who uses it. You dont have all the room on that sword for everything. Did you forget why you liked it in the beginning? The things that caught you and captaviated you. That was a great story and The game play was fantastic. You have forgotten the face of your Father. lol. Sorry not FF. That game was brillant. It is the reason RPG’s are so popular now adays. If you like to admit it now or not. I have to admit without it. I probally would not be a FF fantatic. So now your turn 😀
<B>My point exactly smokey. You have said everything I said you would say in my reply. No matter what I say you are going to say that it is wrong.</B>
I’ll say that I don’t believe you, because I probably won’t agree with your opinion.
<B>I still remember the first time I found out that Cloud wasnt a SOILDER. Or going to the Whore House. Dressing up in Slum City. Watch Aeris die for the first time. Sitting by the fire with Red XIII’s Grandpa. Finding all the Limit Breaks. Building up my Materia. From buying Fire to making it into Master. Breeding Chocobos. Finding Treasures.</B>
Ok, so yeah, this is what you do in the game. You aren’t clarifying what you are trying to prove here.
<B>Following Septhroith to watch him Kill Aeris.</B>
I just had to say something about this. You weren’t following Sephiroth to watch him kill Aeris. That would be pretty retarded. You really weren’t even following him until later in the game, because the game doesn’t stick to one central plot. You first were learning of a way to stop Shinra, and that sort of led into the whole Sephiroth saga.
<B>Learning Jenova. Do you not remember thinking what the hell is Jenova?</B>
Not really. I never really thought about it. The game told me everything I needed to know about Jenova without having to do something extra to learn about it.
<B>Or what caused Septhroith to go mad? You dont remember the Flashbacks that werent yours? Or the lies. Did you forget about buying new weapons and seeing the Difference on your Character. Or picking the best weapon with Slots for your materia. Having to be precise about what you use and who uses it. You dont have all the room on that sword for everything.</B>
I just see this as you listing all the stuff that you are required to do in order to beat the game, nothing more, and certainly not to prove anything.
<B>Did you forget why you liked it in the beginning?</B>
You should refresh my memory as to what made it good in the beginning.
<B>The things that caught you and captaviated you.</B>
Nothing really.
<B>That was a great story and The game play was fantastic.</B>
So, all that stuff you listed explained how it’s a good story, and how the gameplay is fantastic!?
<B>You have forgotten the face of your Father. lol. Sorry not FF. That game was brillant. It is the reason RPG’s are so popular now adays.</B>
Uh…what game is that?
<B>So now your turn :D</B>
How can it be my turn when you haven’t really done anything yet, except list basically what needs to be done to beat this game?
I should have clarified here again. Because I said "personally" I didn’t expect it to be taken as my argument, I was more or less saying that the plot twists didn’t seem all that grand to me and that is one of the reasons why I, personally, don’t like the game. Though, you do have to admit that the whole part with the 3 Clouds in, I believe, the Life Stream was pretty silly.
Alright, I can accept that you personally didn’t like the game, it just seemed from your earlier posts that you were presenting deifinitive proof as to why FFVII should be universally considered a bad game. And yes, the 3 Clouds thing was more than a bit out there.
That’s because, when it has to do with the main characters, everything is basically said flat out. However, you see the main characters all the time so you don’t need it all given to you right at once. On the other hand, when it comes to Shinra you don’t see them nearly as much as the main characters, meaning you need more given to you when you see them, and it just isn’t there.
Yeah, everything is basically said flat out regarding the main characters, however this information is gradually spread out through the course of the game leaving plenty of room for the player to speculate before they are simply told what’s going on. I see little difference wether the player is informed during the course of the game or at the end of the game as long as it is done well, which for the most part I believe it was in FFVII. I’ll accept that some of the Shinra characters were sorely underdeveloped (Scarlet, Heideggar, Palmer). While there is enough information given about a good portion of the Shinra for the player to piece together vivid portraits of their inner character (Rufus, Hojo, and to some extent the Turks).
That’s because there are somewhere around 7-10 Shinra characters in the game, you would HAVE to see more of Shinra due to that reason alone.
I’ll refraise then. We see more of Rufus than just about every other FF villain in pre-playstation games.
Even so, the story wouldn’t have gotten old after playing through the game twice if it was a good story. There are some games that people can play over and over. When it comes to FF7 I honestly can’t see how someone that has played other RPG’s can sit down and play it again. I just see the story as way too simplistic. The only problem is that if I state all my reasons why and the other person still doesn’t think it is then there really isn’t much more I can say on the matter that will convince that person. Though, on that same note, there is no way anyone can ever convince me it is a good story.
The fact that you enjoyed the story enough the first time through to warrant a second playthrough would seem to suggest that the story is not entirely bad. I’ve played many other rpgs, I’ve also played through FFVII 3 times so far and have enjoyed it each time. It would seem we are at a standstill on this point, you claim there is no way to convince you this game has a good story, and the only way to convince me that the story is bad is for me to playthrough the game again and not enjoy it.
A story can be coherent while still leaving you guessing. This is what square basically did. They made the game so that anyone could understand the story, consequently making it very basic. It was easy to follow, and as a result became dull. Of course that could always go back to the attempt to market to younger players and such, which they were most defiantly trying to do and BZ pretty much illustrated with his first post. I guess I should revise what I said, and admit that for younger players it is probably spot on when it came to the comprehension level of the player, but for the older players the story tends to lack depths, and ends up becoming a sub par story. Also, I don’t plan on replaying it but you’re more than welcome to :P.
Yes a story can be coherent while still leaving you guessing, but can also turn into a jumbled mess of unrelated events. I always thought that when telling a story one of the goals was that the audience can understand it (unless you’re James Joyce). While all the main story points are straight forward there are also a few subtleties that not every player will pick up on. I thought they were trying to market FFVII to an older group of players than those who played NES and SNES games, that older group being teenagers. This is because those kids who played the NES and SNES grew up into teenagers. I’m not sure if surveys have been done regarding this, but I doubt many adults played NES or SNES games. Anyway if you take FFVII for what it is and don’t expect it to be the last great literary masterwork of the 20th century then the story succeeds in it’s goal, which is to tell and entertaining tale. I do plan on replaying this game, but that’s not happening anytime soon due to working 40+ hours a week, night classes, and Star Ocean 3 coming out in a few weeks (I hope).
The reason I said that I felt you were confusing the two is because you said gameplay was linear, when it is the one aspect of the game that kind of changes a little every now and then due to the mini-games. Granted every game has them, but it would be wrong of me to deny that they are there in FFVII. As for the story being linear, the reason it should be considered as such is because the plot basically follows this format. "Shinra is bad, we should stop them." "ok!" "Mako is good, we should help conserve it." "ok!" "Seph is bad, he killed Aeris, we should kill him!" "ok!" I know there is more packed in than that, but the point I’m trying to make is that there isn’t really any options as to what to do in the actual game itself. It’s basically just one track, almost caveman like. "THIS BAD STOP IT! THIS GOOD HELP IT!" Or, if you would prefer, "SHINRA BAD HULK SMACH!"
In my first post I exempted mini-games from the gameplay department. Most rpgs have mini-games of some sort, however FFVII’s stand above almost all of them in the fact that they are actually fun to play. As for you synopsis about the linear storyline, you’ve just described the basic outline for pretty much every console rpg story I’ve ever played. The only rpgs I’ve played where you’re given options where your choices actually have more than a superficial affect on the game are computer rpgs.
You can still have an "artistic, open for interpretation" ending that required effort. It was basically like the second Matrix movie. It set itself up for a sequel, but you knew if the sequel (or third installment in The Matrix Reloaded case) was ever made it would be really crappy. The ending to FFVII was just too basic. Now, had they left more open for interpretation throughout the rest of the game then it would have been fine, but to go from handing the player everything to telling him or her nothing just doesn’t cut it. That also goes back to the point you made about the game wrapping everything together (not sure if you said that in this post or not, but I’m pretty sure you said it somewhere), the ending defiantly does not do that at all.
I feel that effort was put into the ending of FFVII. Comparing the ending of the second Matrix to that of FFVII is more than stretching things. The second Matrix was made along side the third, so there was a clear link to the sequel. FFVII was made many years before any work on a sequel began, or was probably even thought of. I’m fairly certain that at the when FFVII was made it was regarded by square as a completely self contained story with a definite ending. There were several hints throughout the game as to possible outcomes of the ending, and by using those hints the player can come to their own conclusion about what the ending sequence meant, I’m not sure how this is more basic than the ending of say FFIV where it’s basically evil is defeated, half your party are now kings, the male and female leads are married and everything is A OK now. I don’t think I said the ending wraps everything together, just that the player is left to draw their own conclusions.
But then limit breaks are pretty much pointless. If you HAVE to use them when you get them then the trigger shouldn’t be "well you took this much damage, so now you’re MAD!" For example, in FFVI there were limit breaks as well. However, each character had a different situation that would trigger it. Most were "near death" if I remember right. In any event, the "Limits" would get triggered in a situation that they were NEEDED, not what the character just happened to take a certain amount of damage. That is why I see it as a flawed system. Basically Square tried to improve upon the idea of "limits", but it wasn’t practical.
All the FFVI limit breaks I remember are triggered by the near death state. I could argue that the limit breaks in FFVI are flawed because it’s not practicle to leave a character in a state where any attack can easily kill them just to use a special attack. Anyway in FFVII the fights that inflict enough damage to your party to fill up the limit meter tend to be against the powerful enemies and bosses, which is exactly when you need that extra oomph.
Yeah, but Aeris dies fairly early in the game. Everyone else is capable of a good amount of physical damage, meaning anyone can be a cookie-cutter.
From what I remember Aeris dies about 17 hours into the game, the past FFs were only around 20 hours in length, so this is still a good chunk of gameplay. Also the only characters versitile enough to be great in any role without an excess of tweaking would be Cloud and Red, Barret and Cid are not going to be great magic users. Sure the difference is not as pronounced as in FFIV, but the same can be said about FFVI characters like Celes, Terra, Locke, and Edgar.
This depends on what game you’re talking about. If you’re talking about FFVI, for example, I know I had a much harder time when it came to splitting my party in those times where you needed 2-3 different parties because I had to try and play upon everyone’s strength???s and weaknesses. In FFVII you have, I believe, one case like that. However, even then you can make any member of your party whatever you need him or her to be at the time due to materia. In FFVI the only character that can really assume any ability/strength you need him to is Gogo. The fact is that Relm is NEVER going to be powerful with physical attacks, and sometimes you are pretty much forced to use her.
I see your point, but at the same time I never had a tough time splitting my party up into groups in FFVI, simply make sure that each group has at least one character with curative magic and I was good to go. Splitting up into seperate groups in FFVII simply isn’t practicle due to the relatively small cast of characters, especially if the player neglects to get Yuffie or Vincent. And I’m sure someone somewhere has put enough time into leveling Realm up with vigor and strength boosting espers to make her a formidible physical character.
Now, if you’re talking about RPG’s in general, there are a good number that you don’t have more than 3-4 characters throughout the whole game, with FFIV having 5 in a party in some points. In games like this you’re forced to work with the abilities you have, and there is NO WAY (usually) for a character to get an ability from another character. In both cases there is more thought required than "Well, I need a healer so I’ll give all of my healing materia to this character".
In games like these it seems to me that less thought is required than games with customizable characters. The game gives you a set party, and flat out tells you "This character is a healer, use her to heal and that character over there is a swordsman, whack enemies over the head with him".
I honestly would question if they would have. I believe they did have the ability to do so with FFVI and they didn’t. However, even if they did, I don’t think it would have been in the same manner as FFVII. However, this is all speculation on either of our parts.
I doubt they had the ability with FFVI, I think the reason they could mass market FFVII was that the game was published by Sony and Sony has a whole lot of money. But like you said, this is only speculation.
Actually, the way it is worded would mean to imply that "you want to know why the game is so popular, despite the fact that it is so horrible, I will tell you.??? I had already said why it sucked, and was going to focus on why it was popular despite that. I’m pretty sure my meaning was clear.
I knew what that phrase was implying, I was simply being a stickler on the wording. Yeah, I’m a jackass.
When it first came out, no matter where you went, the clerk would ask you if you wanted the strategy guide for the game as well. I know this because it happened when I bought it. It happened when my friend bought it. It happened when my cousin bought it. It happened all three times, in three different stores, completely separate from each other. As I said, I offered the strategy guide as an example as to why the game was so popular even though it wasn???t all that great of a game.
I bought the game at Best Buy and had no such experience. The fact that an official strategy guide was offered does not play a major part in the sales, people interested in the game would still buy it strategy guide or not, a few of them might not finish the game without the guide, but by then it’s too late they’ve already made the purchase.
They can rent it before they buy it.
It’s not very practicle to rent a 40+ hour rpg, especially considering most rentals 7 years ago were 2 or 3 day rentals.
But the ONLY point I was trying to make is that the graphics weren’t nearly as good as they could have been. FFVIII was only two years removed from FFVII, and in two years times the graphics improved tenfold. That’s where the statement came from. It’s not my fault all the other companies weren’t trying as hard as Square was, even though they weren’t trying hard either.
Graphics are never as good as they could be, and graphics are not largely degermined by how much effort is put into them, but how much experience the designers have with a particular system. Just like anything else there is a learning curve in creating good graphics and the more experience and knowledge is acquired the better the graphics become.
I’m not even going to bother to read most of these posts because your just recycling each others words. Hopefully this will get closed soon.
I’ll just say that I like FF7, it was the first game I played in the series. Mainly because I saw it advertised (as RM said, marketed to hell. Thats correct, accept it). I enjoyed playing the game, because I liked the whole RPG format (this was really the first time I had played one). I did think the story was quite…nice, but it was very basic. I have to say I did buy the guide after I completed it the first time, and I did miss a few things, but not enough to warrant NEEDING to buy the guide, if that makes sense.
So I guess I’m can completly see why RM made this post, the flaws he pointed out do exist and I agree with them entirely. But that doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy playing the game.
And I wish there wasn’t such a huge divide between people who like/dislike the game. It ridiculous you can’t discuss instead of arguing. Accept that they make a few good points about the flaws in the game, but you lot on the other hand accept the flaws and love FF7 in spite of them. And that should be the end of it.
Nice knowing ya. :-*
Though Final Fantasy 7 was an extremely simplistic RPG (at least by the standards of when it came out), it was a gateway game. However, it either went from "played a good bunch of RPGs" or "played FF7 and don’t give a crap". As much as we like to say there is something in the middle, there really isn’t.
Really, FF7 was just a game that was more open to everyone. Being too addicted to it isn’t my recommendation, it makes you ignorant of many things and thus not appricate games as much. I am a pretty deep fan of games, I do have my favorites but I give every game a chance. Of course, by doing this, I can’t say what is my favorite FF game because it’s really everchanging and I can give you more reasons to why I like one over the other but I like the other for this.
Personally for the sake of whatever, those who need to "defend" FF7 and those who need to "attack" FF7 to stop the people who are the "support" of FF7… really, this is an FF7 forum and dammit, it’s going to happen. Just like FF8, just like FF9, just like FFX. Unfortunately, at FFShrine, it’s not our job to force people to like something. I, of course, would rather talk about something else than FF7 or FF7AC but with how people are these days, it’s a bit hard to do so.
And besides… it gives the FFXI people more to laugh about…. because we all know that the FF7 fans are total complete dumbasses. It’s the truth, it’s fact… FF7 are total complete dumbasses to the eyes of those who play FFXI. That and they’re cheap in the wallet and can’t handle a "real" RPG.
But yeah…. FF7, gateway to games… but sometimes the gateway gets plugged.
Though Final Fantasy 7 was an extremely simplistic RPG (at least by the standards of when it came out), it was a gateway game. However, it either went from "played a good bunch of RPGs" or "played FF7 and don’t give a crap". As much as we like to say there is something in the middle, there really isn’t.
Well, as far as i am concerned that is true, but there has gotta be a happy medium. Such as ‘Played FF7, and it was OK?’
Really, FF7 was just a game that was more open to everyone. Being too addicted to it isn’t my recommendation, it makes you ignorant of many things and thus not appricate games as much. I am a pretty deep fan of games, I do have my favorites but I give every game a chance. Of course, by doing this, I can’t say what is my favorite FF game because it’s really everchanging and I can give you more reasons to why I like one over the other but I like the other for this.
Nowadays, you get too many ‘die hard’ FFVII fans. Much to addictive, and it annoys me somewhat, becuase maybe if they had played other RPG’s their opinions would be different. My opinions of FF change every time I play them. Everytime, I notice new things that make the game good/bad, thusly.
Personally for the sake of whatever, those who need to "defend" FF7 and those who need to "attack" FF7 to stop the people who are the "support" of FF7… really, this is an FF7 forum and dammit, it’s going to happen. Just like FF8, just like FF9, just like FFX. Unfortunately, at FFShrine, it’s not our job to force people to like something. I, of course, would rather talk about something else than FF7 or FF7AC but with how people are these days, it’s a bit hard to do so.
My point as above. I think it is pretty fair to have things like these occasionally, but not too much. There are different aspects (surely) of FFVII to talk about.
And besides… it gives the FFXI people more to laugh about…. because we all know that the FF7 fans are total complete dumbasses. It’s the truth, it’s fact… FF7 are total complete dumbasses to the eyes of those who play FFXI. That and they’re cheap in the wallet and can’t handle a "real" RPG.
I would consider FFVII to be an RPG, I would consider TLoZ to be an RPG. But as you said, not ‘real’ ones. On games like Shenmue, you can talk to everyone, and every desicion you make, moreso have an ultimate impact on the games outcome, a similar case with KotOR (Knights of the Old Republic) and in my opinion, these are the more consistent RPG’s.
As for your comment on the FFVII fans being dumbasses, I agree 50/50. Some of them go WAY to far and get WAY too offended but others are col, Like me.
But yeah…. FF7, gateway to games… but sometimes the gateway gets plugged.
Maybe…
I like the Final Fantasy story, I also like the characters, I don’t need any more of a reason than that to say why I like the game do I?
There may be glitches or things that could have been made better, but I think the story makes up for all that, (and plus I like the materia system ^^)
– Adam
My friend you are fighting a losing battle. They want hard core evidence as to why they should like the game. You cant give that to someone. You just have to say that they think it is a bad game. Ok notch 2 for the million that enjoyed it. What can you do? They dont enjoy the game. Just like I thought that FF VIII was terrible. The story was great but the game play was so horrible that I almost didnt finish it. I felt like I was forcing myself to finish it. So you cant convince me that the "Draw" system that they used in FF VIII was worth the better graphics. This is a draw subject no one is going to win this.
I’m not sure who you are talking about. But, since I know it’s one of us that is attacking FFVII, how are we on the losing battle? We have come up with so much evidence or whatever you want to call it. And what do you guys come up with?
"OH THERE IS NO POINT IN ARGUING!"
Yes, there is a point. Do you see why FFVII fans are viewed as complete idiots? Because they say crap like this, over and over and over again, without really standing up and defending the game for once. And we can’t give hard-core evidence as to why someone shouldn’t like the game? Well, just go back to the beginning of this thread, and read from there. Seriously, do it. There is a lot to read, but it all makes sense in the terms of making an argument against FFVII. And you don’t actually know how many people enjoy the game. Yeah, I can safely say that most people who beat the game when it first came out enjoyed it big time. But, if you ask them now, I bet a good amount of those very same people will have changed their views. And I agree with you on one thing; I think FFVIII is the worst one of the series, for reasons I won’t delve into here. It would be the wrong forum.
<I>Originally posted by The Bear</I>
<B>I’m not even going to bother to read most of these posts because your just recycling each others words. Hopefully this will get closed soon.</B>
Or maybe because it would take too long to read everything and fully comprehend everything? And why should it get closed? Just so that the FFVII non-fans can’t express their opinions?
<B>I’ll just say that I like FF7, it was the first game I played in the series. Mainly because I saw it advertised (as RM said, marketed to hell. Thats correct, accept it).</B>
Finally, a FFVII fan accepts that the game isn’t perfect.
<B>I enjoyed playing the game, because I liked the whole RPG format (this was really the first time I had played one).</B>
That seems to be the general consensus with most FFVII fans. Most of them have never played RPG’s before, so this game is their first.
<B>I did think the story was quite…nice, but it was very basic. I have to say I did buy the guide after I completed it the first time, and I did miss a few things, but not enough to warrant NEEDING to buy the guide, if that makes sense.</B>
Now, I’m not saying that the storyline is the worst ever. I’m just saying it really wasn’t that good. And it was basic, because a toddler could follow it. Yes, a toddler. So you’re saying that you don’t need the guide to beat the game because it is that easy, right?
<B>And I wish there wasn’t such a huge divide between people who like/dislike the game. It ridiculous you can’t discuss instead of arguing.</B>
Personally, there isn’t a hude divide for me. I have friends that are FFVII fans, and non-fans. I don’t think they are wrong for liking the game, because they can actually debate with me. I just don’t agree with them. And I’m not trying to argue with anyone. It’s just really frustrating when you continuously see all these FFVII fans claim it’s the greatest game ever, and they yell at us for bashing it. Then, when they are asked to back up their claims, they run and hide in the corner.
<I>Originally posted by SephirothBizzaro</I>
<B>Nowadays, you get too many ‘die hard’ FFVII fans. Much to addictive, and it annoys me somewhat, becuase maybe if they had played other RPG’s their opinions would be different. My opinions of FF change every time I play them. Everytime, I notice new things that make the game good/bad, thusly.</B>
I think the reason there are so many die-hard FFVII fans, is because a good number of them haven’t played the FF games that were released before it. So, it’s a lot easier to say this:
FFVII is the best one of all, but I haven’t played the ones before it.
Than:
FFVII is the best one of all, and I have played all of them.
It’s been years since I beat the game, and over time, I have noticed new things or mistakes that make the game worse than I actually thought it was.
<B>As for your comment on the FFVII fans being dumbasses, I agree 50/50. Some of them go WAY to far and get WAY too offended but others are col, Like me.</B>
Yes, you seem to not really care that much about all of this, while you are a FFVII fan too. I just think it’s pretty idiotic when you say it’s the greatest game ever, but you don’t have any reason why. That’s what pisses me off about all these FFVII nuts.
<I>Originally posted by AdamJC</I>
<B>I like the Final Fantasy story, I also like the characters, I don’t need any more of a reason than that to say why I like the game do I?</B>
Yes you do. That’s pretty much the same as:
I like the United States of America, and all the characters that make it the greatest country in the world. But, I don’t need any more of a reason than that, do I?
<B>There may be glitches or things that could have been made better, but I think the story makes up for all that, (and plus I like the materia system ^^)</B>
Well of course there are going to be things that could make the game better. No game is perfect, it’s just that we are pointing out these mistakes. And how does the story make up for all this? Why do you like the materia system?
Point is, the materia system was open but very limited as well. I perfer FFX’s Sphere Grid system however, you can make anyone into whatever you want and you can make them into everything, that’s what I felt was great and outshines the materia system.
As for storyline…. basically, once I play through a game, I don’t give a crap about the story any more. I did like the dialogue placed in FF7 but it wasn’t exactly… well… "correct". Of course what I mean could mean anything. It lacked a lot of "normality" I’ll say. While games like FF6 have humor, FF7 kinda dove into weird short sentences with accents and incorrect grammar at times. But yeah, I ignore the story the second time around.
I’m not sure who you are talking about. But, since I know it’s one of us that is attacking FFVII, how are we on the losing battle? We have come up with so much evidence or whatever you want to call it. And what do you guys come up with?
I’m fairly certain Cloud_Dmar had that statement aimed at me.
Yes, there is a point. Do you see why FFVII fans are viewed as complete idiots? Because they say crap like this, over and over and over again, without really standing up and defending the game for once. And we can’t give hard-core evidence as to why someone shouldn’t like the game? Well, just go back to the beginning of this thread, and read from there. Seriously, do it. There is a lot to read, but it all makes sense in the terms of making an argument against FFVII. And you don’t actually know how many people enjoy the game. Yeah, I can safely say that most people who beat the game when it first came out enjoyed it big time. But, if you ask them now, I bet a good amount of those very same people will have changed their views. And I agree with you on one thing; I think FFVIII is the worst one of the series, for reasons I won’t delve into here. It would be the wrong forum.
Why argue when we can have semi-civilized debate? And here I thought I was standing up and defending the game, oh well. I would like to see this "hard-core evidence" against FFVII, we’re discussing human prefference to a game and the human mind is much to fickle for "hard-core-evidence" in matters of prefference, such definitive proof is reserved for the sciences and mathematics.
Finally, a FFVII fan accepts that the game isn’t perfect.
Er, finally? I’ve already pointed out several aspects of the game that weren’t perfect, in fact I don’t recall someone claiming anywhere in this thread that FFVII is perfect.
I think the reason there are so many die-hard FFVII fans, is because a good number of them haven’t played the FF games that were released before it. So, it’s a lot easier to say this:
FFVII is the best one of all, but I haven’t played the ones before it.
Than
FFVII is the best one of all, and I have played all of them.
This leads me to believe that a good amount of dislike for FFVII stems from a dislike of the fans of FVII rather than it actually beine a bad game. Besides, I thought we were talking about FFVII being a good or a bad game, not wether or not it’s the "best one of all".
Yes you do. That’s pretty much the same as:
I like the United States of America, and all the characters that make it the greatest country in the world. But, I don’t need any more of a reason than that, do I?
That United States thing doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Anyway why does he need to explain to you why he likes the game? The fact that he likes FFVII does not affect you in any way so he does not have to justify why he likes the game to you or anybody but himself. If someone wants to discuss why they think this game is good or bad, I say good for them the more the merrier. But if they like the game and don’t want to debate why they like FFVII, what’s wrong with leaving it at that?
And I just have to comment on this
Originally posted by Mogknight
And besides… it gives the FFXI people more to laugh about…. because we all know that the FF7 fans are total complete dumbasses. It’s the truth, it’s fact… FF7 are total complete dumbasses to the eyes of those who play FFXI. That and they’re cheap in the wallet and can’t handle a "real" RPG.
That’s one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve heard in a long time. I’ve played both FFXI and FFVII, I consider myself a fan of both. I’m a fan of FFVII, I’m also smart enough to realize I’m stupid, and that puts me one step ahead most people (including most FFXI people). Just what makes FFXI a "real" rpg? Most of my experiences in that game are far from actual roleplaying, it’s the majority of your party being more concerned with exp per hour than actually having fun with the game.
It maybe the most ridiculous statements you’ve heard for awhile but being knee deep into things like me, you start hearing a lot of things you wish you didn’t, Final Fantasy or otherwise.
<B>Why argue when we can have semi-civilized debate? And here I thought I was standing up and defending the game, oh well. I would like to see this "hard-core evidence" against FFVII, we’re discussing human prefference to a game and the human mind is much to fickle for "hard-core-evidence" in matters of prefference, such definitive proof is reserved for the sciences and mathematics.</B>
I would rather have a debate than argue over it. That is what I was trying to do anyways. And wasn’t the posts before these enough hard-core evidence for you? I knew you were defending the game, and I respect you for that. You are one of the few that actually attempt to do so.
<B>Er, finally? I’ve already pointed out several aspects of the game that weren’t perfect, in fact I don’t recall someone claiming anywhere in this thread that FFVII is perfect.</B>
When I said finally, that was just aimed at him, because most FFVII fans don’t admit there are mistakes with the game. And when I said perfect, I meant exactly what I said before. Most FFVII fans believe it is the greatest game ever, therefore they view it as perfect since they may claim there is nothing wrong with it.
<B>This leads me to believe that a good amount of dislike for FFVII stems from a dislike of the fans of FVII rather than it actually beine a bad game. Besides, I thought we were talking about FFVII being a good or a bad game, not wether or not it’s the "best one of all".</B>
I was trying to talk about what makes this game bad. But then, someone said they believe it is the greatest game of all time, and it sort of led to this. I don’t want to debate if this is the greatest game or not, but it’s may lead to that if the FFVII fans keep claiming that. I just want to debate if it is a good game or not.
<B>That United States thing doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Anyway why does he need to explain to you why he likes the game? The fact that he likes FFVII does not affect you in any way so he does not have to justify why he likes the game to you or anybody but himself. If someone wants to discuss why they think this game is good or bad, I say good for them the more the merrier. But if they like the game and don’t want to debate why they like FFVII, what’s wrong with leaving it at that?</B>
When you like something, there is usually a reason for it. I just wanted him to give reasons for his beliefs. And that U.S. thing does make sense. If someone told me that this is the greatest country in the world, I would ask them to tell me why it is. If someone doesn’t tell me why they like the game, and all they say repeatedly is "IT’S DA BOMB!", I am going to think they are an idiot, because they have no reason for liking the game. Instead, they just jumped on the bandwagon seven years ago, and are afraid to get off it, because so many people think this is a great game.
Yeah, everything is basically said flat out regarding the main characters, however this information is gradually spread out through the course of the game leaving plenty of room for the player to speculate before they are simply told what’s going on.
I distinctly remember sitting and staring at the screen going "couldn’t they space this out more?" Everything you get is in large clumps. I will give you that the clumps may be spread throughout the game, but all the information you get is pilled on top of itself at seemingly random parts of the game, rather than spread out evenly throughout the entire game, making for choppy gameplay as well as causing the story to suffer (if you won???t admit that the story suffers because of that at least concede that it hinders the progression of the game by having to sit through 10 minutes of talk).
I see little difference wether the player is informed during the course of the game or at the end of the game as long as it is done well, which for the most part I believe it was in FFVII.
I’m not sure if you mean that you thought everything was said near the end, or just using the extreme to help drive the point home. If you thought that I meant it was all given at the end of the game, that’s not what I meant at all, which the previous comment should help clarify. If you meant to just help further your point then I think my pervious comment serves to explain why I don’t think it is good to clump information. It just takes away from the fluency of the story when it is a sort of "stop and go" storyline. Anyway, I wouldn’t have commented on that sentence separately, I just didn’t know which point you were trying to make.
I’ll accept that some of the Shinra characters were sorely underdeveloped (Scarlet, Heideggar, Palmer). While there is enough information given about a good portion of the Shinra for the player to piece together vivid portraits of their inner character (Rufus, Hojo, and to some extent the Turks).
Just a complete side not, this has nothing to do with my point; I just can’t go without saying it. I couldn’t stand Rufus’ character. Not Rufus as an individual, just the whole idea of his character. It just seemed so manufactured for his part in order to have some random villain that they can have popping up when they feel that something bad should happen.
Moving on, I don’t really remember enough about the game to comment on how correct I think that statement is, however, I remember wanting to see more of Hojo because he, like Rufus, seemed to just come and go whenever they needed some crazy scientist to plop in there.
I’ll refraise then. We see more of Rufus than just about every other FF villain in pre-playstation games.
You pretty much saw Kefka throughout the entire world of Balance in FFVI, you also know exactly where he is in the World of Ruin. You saw Golbez an awful lot in FFIV. In FFV Gilgamesh is frekin everywhere, though he was closest to Rufus in the regards that they just sort of threw him in there whenever they needed a boss or something.
The fact that you enjoyed the story enough the first time through to warrant a second playthrough would seem to suggest that the story is not entirely bad.
Go back to my first post. The only reason I played it a second time was to check to see what I missed. I’m not sure if I specifically SAID that in my first post, so I can see why you would mention this. I really had no intention of playing it again once I beat it, but my friends hounded me about how I HAD to have missed something because I didn’t use the guide.
I’ve played many other rpgs, I’ve also played through FFVII 3 times so far and have enjoyed it each time. It would seem we are at a standstill on this point, you claim there is no way to convince you this game has a good story, and the only way to convince me that the story is bad is for me to playthrough the game again and not enjoy it.
Then I wait for the day you come on to FFShrine and say that the game blew chunks. 😛
While all the main story points are straight forward there are also a few subtleties that not every player will pick up on.
Can you give examples? Not trying to be difficult, I just can’t think of any and I don’t know if it is because there isn’t any, or because I’m just naturally prone to think there isn’t.
I thought they were trying to market FFVII to an older group of players than those who played NES and SNES games, that older group being teenagers.This is because those kids who played the NES and SNES grew up into teenagers. I’m not sure if surveys have been done regarding this, but I doubt many adults played NES or SNES games.
I doubt surveys have been done, and seem as it is complete speculation on our part there really isn’t any way to PROVE it, but it really does seem like it was meant to be presented to an audience around the ages of 12-16. I wonder how easy it would be to get an answer from Square on this one. O:]
Anyway if you take FFVII for what it is and don’t expect it to be the last great literary masterwork of the 20th century then the story succeeds in it’s goal, which is to tell and entertaining tale. I do plan on replaying this game, but that’s not happening anytime soon due to working 40+ hours a week, night classes, and Star Ocean 3 coming out in a few weeks (I hope).
I have no problem with people that aren’t out to prove that FFVII is the greatest game in the world or that it has the most amazing story ever written. The fact of the matters is that the story in FFV is horrid, but I LOVE the game because it is just so entertaining to play. What irks me, and is the main reason I made this thread to begin with, are those people who feel that FFVII is the greatest game (or even THING) to ever grace this world, and that blindly say so without having anything to back it up.
In my first post I exempted mini-games from the gameplay department. Most rpgs have mini-games of some sort, however FFVII’s stand above almost all of them in the fact that they are actually fun to play. As for you synopsis about the linear storyline, you’ve just described the basic outline for pretty much every console rpg story I’ve ever played. The only rpgs I’ve played where you’re given options where your choices actually have more than a superficial affect on the game are computer rpgs.
I don’t know… I got pretty damn addicted to Blitzball, and I really didn’t like playing the mini-games in FFVII. The only one I really enjoyed was racing chocobos, but there are only so many times you can go around that track before it gets outright repetitive. I’m kind of running low on time so I’m going to try and keep this short. But, I do have to comment on how the storyline seemed much more straightforward in terms of what you had to do next in the game, which is why I made the last comment in the paragraph you quoted. There is never any question in the characters mind as to what must be done or where they have to go. That’s the point I was trying to get across.
I feel that effort was put into the ending of FFVII. Comparing the ending of the second Matrix to that of FFVII is more than stretching things. The second Matrix was made along side the third, so there was a clear link to the sequel. FFVII was made many years before any work on a sequel began, or was probably even thought of. I’m fairly certain that at the when FFVII was made it was regarded by square as a completely self contained story with a definite ending. There were several hints throughout the game as to possible outcomes of the ending, and by using those hints the player can come to their own conclusion about what the ending sequence meant…
Hence why I called it a cop out. There’s no ENDING, it’s just "yeah, it’s all plants now, see ya". An ending to a book, a story, or a game should leave you with more than you started. It’s ok to leave you hanging in some respects, but to just completely write out every single character from the ending but one is kind of, for lack of a better term, crappy. The fact is that it DOES NOT leave you with a sense of completeness and, for the majority of people; it was more a reaction of "what the fuck is this?" Hence the Matrix reference.
…I’m not sure how this is more basic than the ending of say FFIV where it’s basically evil is defeated, half your party are now kings, the male and female leads are married and everything is A OK now. I don’t think I said the ending wraps everything together, just that the player is left to draw their own conclusions.
In a short answer, it’s not. However, the ending for FFIV worked much better for that particular game than the ending of FFVII worked for it, for all the reasons I’ve said.
All the FFVI limit breaks I remember are triggered by the near death state. I could argue that the limit breaks in FFVI are flawed because it’s not practicle to leave a character in a state where any attack can easily kill them just to use a special attack. Anyway in FFVII the fights that inflict enough damage to your party to fill up the limit meter tend to be against the powerful enemies and bosses, which is exactly when you need that extra oomph.
I don’t think anyone let someone get to near death just to see the limit breaks, and if they did it wouldn???t be in a situation that the party was in any real danger. However, two comments I have to make. First is that if you need extra oomph in battles where you receive a lot of damage then wouldn’t it also be reasonable to assume that if your characters are spending enough time at "near death" status to be able to use their limits that you would need that extra oomph? The second point would be that you could argue the Limit system in FFVII makes it too easy to kill bosses because you could have your limit fill out without being in any serious danger, meaning you get an extra powerful attack that tips the scales in a challenging battle so far in your favor that it makes it an easy battle instead, ruining some of the gameplay aspect. This same argument doesn’t work with FFVI because, as you pointed out, it is dangerous to stay at a near death status.
From what I remember Aeris dies about 17 hours into the game, the past FFs were only around 20 hours in length, so this is still a good chunk of gameplay. Also the only characters versitile enough to be great in any role without an excess of tweaking would be Cloud and Red, Barret and Cid are not going to be great magic users. Sure the difference is not as pronounced as in FFIV, but the same can be said about FFVI characters like Celes, Terra, Locke, and Edgar.
Terra and Celes are the only two that I see as really unbalanced in FFVI. Locke had steal, or mug, which really takes a lot of devotion on the player’s part to make powerful. Edgar never really had that powerful magic when I played with him. Besides, the hardest part of FFVI is Kefka’s tower. If you were to assume that all 4 of those characters was unbalanced, merely having them in your 3 parties would NOT mean that you could get through that blasted thing. However, in FFVII you only listed 2 of 9 characters as being unable to use a decent amount of magic. From what I remember the only character that is really weak physically is Areis, and like I said, she isn’t in your final party. This means that you have at least 7 versatile characters to use. The most parties you ever have to make are 2. This means that you don’t even have to use the characters that aren’t easily exchangeable ability wise.
I see your point, but at the same time I never had a tough time splitting my party up into groups in FFVI, simply make sure that each group has at least one character with curative magic and I was good to go. Splitting up into seperate groups in FFVII simply isn’t practicle due to the relatively small cast of characters, especially if the player neglects to get Yuffie or Vincent. And I’m sure someone somewhere has put enough time into leveling Realm up with vigor and strength boosting espers to make her a formidible physical character.
In FFVII all you need is the right materia and you have the party you need. In FFVI if you haven’t learned that magic with the right number of characters you’re screwed. The first time through FFVI presented me with a much harder challenge when it came to splitting parties than the first time through FFVII because it is unexpected. In FFVII I could mix and match my materia to make sure I had enough people that could cure. In FFVI, if someone didn’t have a cure spell then too bad for me.
In games like these it seems to me that less thought is required than games with customizable characters. The game gives you a set party, and flat out tells you "This character is a healer, use her to heal and that character over there is a swordsman, whack enemies over the head with him".
This was a separate point from paragraph before it in my post. It was more of a comment on the fact that you can’t customize your abilities for what you need in games like that and instead have to work with what you have, as opposed to FFVII where you can make anyone whatever you need at any given time. It wasn’t a comment about having to think more or less, though I COULD argue that FFVII still requires less thinking because instead of having to figure out how each character’s abilities best complement each other you can MAKE that character either a) complement the other members of the party or b) make 3 completely independent characters, depending on your needs at that given time.
I doubt they had the ability with FFVI, I think the reason they could mass market FFVII was that the game was published by Sony and Sony has a whole lot of money. But like you said, this is only speculation.
I still don’t see them marketing it the same way, regardless of if they had the means or not. The reason is because I whole-heatedly believe that the games were intended for completely different sets of fans.
I bought the game at Best Buy and had no such experience. The fact that an official strategy guide was offered does not play a major part in the sales, people interested in the game would still buy it strategy guide or not, a few of them might not finish the game without the guide, but by then it’s too late they’ve already made the purchase.
Since my last post I actually talked with someone I knew that was working in a store that sells games at the time FFVII came out. Turns out that they were, in fact, told to offer the guide when the game sold. I couldn’t say if it was the same for each store, and he didn’t know if it was just that one store or every store that sold FFVII. However, the fact is that, at least at that one store, the clerks were told to pressure people to buy the guide with FFVII. They were also never pressured to sell a guide for another game before or since. Well, I can’t say that. They might have after he quit a year ago. For the record, I didn’t go and ask him, I happened to be talking with him about past jobs and it just sort of popped into my head to ask him when he brought up the toy store.
It’s not very practicle to rent a 40+ hour rpg, especially considering most rentals 7 years ago were 2 or 3 day rentals.
You could still get far enough in the game with the 2-3 days to see if you like it or not, though.
Graphics are never as good as they could be, and graphics are not largely degermined by how much effort is put into them, but how much experience the designers have with a particular system. Just like anything else there is a learning curve in creating good graphics and the more experience and knowledge is acquired the better the graphics become.
All I’m saying is there was a quantum leap from FFVII to FFVIII, there was not such a leap from FFVIII to FFIX. There is about the same gap between the two games. I’m assuming you would say that just means they learned a lot between FFVII and FFVIII, I would say they simply didn’t try as hard for FFVII. However, this is just speculation on both of our parts, again.
I like the ideas in the game, Shinra Company, a dying planet, Jenova etc.. I cant really explain why I like them but I’ll give it some thought and maybe edit this post later. Maybe its because they were new to me when I played FF7, as FF7 was the first game of its type I ever played (being only 10 yrs old or so when it came out and it being one of my first PS1 games – PS1 being my first major console)
As i said, I like the characters and the fact that they all have at least some kind of history (ff7 isnt the first game to have this, its not new, but it is a GOOD thing). All the characters have a distinct personality which was again new to me.
Although I do feel that some characters lack a real reason for fighting to the end (mainly Yuffie)
The reason I like the materia system is because of its simplicity (people may say they don’t like it to be simple, but compared to the more complex ff8 junction system I think the materia system wins hands down).
I also like the way materia is both useful (the spells/MP increase) and dangerous (HP and Str Reductions) meaning you have to be cautious, and the fact your materia levels up so you don’t have to buy loads of new materia at every city as your old ones become weak and obselete.
The reasons you have for hating ff7 are justified in your eyes, but I don’t understand why we need to justify to you why we like the game just for you to accept that we do like it, maybe we don’t all have clear reasons (I know I’m having difficultly saying why I like it), but we still know what we like, and if everyone accepts that we like the game and you hate it then we wont need to keep posting in this thread will we?!
I accept you don’t like the game but you ain’t gonna make me change my mind about it 😉
Oh yeah and I have to mention I new nothing about ff7 when it came out, it was just a game i got with my PS1 and played, so you cant say it was all the advertising that attrated me in my case, oh yeah and I never knew there was a guide book till later on – I played the game without the help of one and still loved it.
Anyway, enough from me, Im tired now I’ll read this post in the morning and if I’ve made a complete idiot of myself I’ll edit it when i’m more alert 😛
– Adam
I agree on that. I found better graphics on the Zelda games (N64)
…oooooh. So its just the whole graphic thing huh?
I agree on that. I found better graphics on the Zelda games (N64)
How would it be a "graphics thing" to base my choice on what I consider good games..when I am currently playing ff7 and loving it and its 2004…where the ff7 are super mediocre compared to whats out now??
Think.
Dammit, some of you people can be so mean! I aint comin back to this thread!
<B>I like the ideas in the game, Shinra Company, a dying planet, Jenova etc.. I cant really explain why I like them but I’ll give it some thought and maybe edit this post later. Maybe its because they were new to me when I played FF7, as FF7 was the first game of its type I ever played (being only 10 yrs old or so when it came out and it being one of my first PS1 games – PS1 being my first major console)</B>
FFVII was the first game of what type?
<B>As i said, I like the characters and the fact that they all have at least some kind of history (ff7 isnt the first game to have this, its not new, but it is a GOOD thing). All the characters have a distinct personality which was again new to me.
Although I do feel that some characters lack a real reason for fighting to the end (mainly Yuffie)</B>
I’ll agree that giving a history behind characters is a good thing. Take FFIV for example; there wasn’t enough history behind the characters. Yeah, we know about Cecil’s past guilt, but what else is there really? Keep in mind, even the absence of this didn’t keep FFIV from being a great game.
<B>The reason I like the materia system is because of its simplicity (people may say they don’t like it to be simple, but compared to the more complex ff8 junction system I think the materia system wins hands down).
I also like the way materia is both useful (the spells/MP increase) and dangerous (HP and Str Reductions) meaning you have to be cautious, and the fact your materia levels up so you don’t have to buy loads of new materia at every city as your old ones become weak and obselete.</B>
I didn’t like the Junction system. Then again, I don’t like much of anything from FFVIII.
I would rather upgrade my materia by purchasing it, instead of leveling it up. I just see that since the game is rather simple, you have to spend a lot of time leveling up the materia to get it really strong. And by the time you have done this, you are that much more bored with the game.
<B>The reasons you have for hating ff7 are justified in your eyes, but I don’t understand why we need to justify to you why we like the game just for you to accept that we do like it, maybe we don’t all have clear reasons (I know I’m having difficultly saying why I like it), but we still know what we like, and if everyone accepts that we like the game and you hate it then we wont need to keep posting in this thread will we?!
I accept you don’t like the game but you ain’t gonna make me change my mind about it ;)</B>
Let me ask you a question. If you heard people say "FFVII sucks" over and over again, without ever explaining why, wouldn’t you get upset that they are doing that? That is exactly what we are doing. There are more FFVII fans than non-fans. These fans continously say "FFVII is awesome", and all we want to know is why? We said why it isn’t, now we just want someone to say why it is. This is nothing more than competitive banter, not fighting.
<B>Oh yeah and I have to mention I new nothing about ff7 when it came out, it was just a game i got with my PS1 and played, so you cant say it was all the advertising that attrated me in my case, oh yeah and I never knew there was a guide book till later on – I played the game without the help of one and still loved it.</B>
Well, how old were you when you bought the game? Because you may have been too young to notice all the publicity and advertising the game received. It’s what made me buy the game originally.
<B>Anyway, enough from me, Im tired now I’ll read this post in the morning and if I’ve made a complete idiot of myself I’ll edit it when i’m more alert :P</B>
No, you haven’t made a complete idiot of yourself. Yet. 🙂
Some of you dont like the game.
Some of us do.
Plain and simple.
I am dissapointed it would come to a point where someone would call me a idiot for liking a game. That is a extremely ignorant thing to do. Am I the stupid one for not spending 16 dollars or so a month on a constant Hack and Slash game with no story or is it that I just dont see the point to playing the same thing over and over all day long and paying for it every month. Hmmmm.. Yup dont feel so stupid anymore. I own that game and wish that I could return that waste of up to 80 or so dollars for 3 months of the same thing. So what I got to run through towns and talk and make teams. Hell I will just go to a chat room if I wanted to talk to people all day long. Or maybe play chess online it has the same level of interest to me. I dont think I am the idiot here my friend.
I dont think I am the idiot here my friend.
I think you are. This thread is meant to be a discussion of why FFVII is a good or bad game. It isn’t just a "Do you like FFVII?" poll. Do you feel threatened by people that offer opinions that differ from yours?
From what I’ve seen, no one has called anyone an idiot just for liking a game, except for you. And to do that after saying how stupid it is makes you a hypocrite.
Because you haven’t played it before.
Why is FF7 A good game?
Because you have played it before.
Stupid questions get stupid answers.
Groovytang, practically everyone here has played FFVII. Saying that people who didn’t like it haven’t played it is just stupid.
And I absolutely agree with MogKnight about rabid FFVII fans being dumbasses. That’s because (in general) they never listen, never use reason, and always go on the offensive when someone tries to make them be reasonable. Attacking other people does not serve to make any kind of point, merely to draw attention away from the fact that they can’t support their opinions in a reasonable debate.
Again, let me remind you that I am speaking in general terms. There are individuals here and there who can hold their own in support of FFVII, just not many.
…..excuse me but are you stoned? Could you have made a better game?
I understand why RM and Smokey hate FF7 fans…
I must say that you hate the game even more and more because of people like these….
But to get on the subject of it being a good game, well Durendal has made a lot of points that you must admit are a well defense and I must agree that I understand why some of you dont think of it that way and that will be with everything every game. I remember that my brother didnt like Shen Mue because the only thing you were doing was asking people about stuff. I liked Shen Mue and well the only thing I can say is that:
Some people like different things, you cant argue about taste.
And I understand why people who played 1 through 6 have a problem with it because what RM said the game was for a different group of people: The entire world, this is indeed where the marketing comes in, but you cant judge a game about marketing. So the bottom line is that Durendal had a lot of point highlighted that are good and RM that are bad it still is your opinion if you like it or not.
Idiot or Dumbass either one is offensive to say to someone who just likes a game. You are stereotyping people by the preference of what games they like. That is stupid. Never listen: What do you think this is? Listen to what? I listen to everyones view on the game. Jesus Christ you people in here a very offesive over a game. Calling someone a dumbass or idiot is ridiculous over liking a game. I am a fantatic by no means. I loved the story, the gameplay, and everything about it. But then again I love the Dark Tower Series. I love Unreal Tournament 2004. I love alot of things. Fantatic by no means. So to call other people who liked the game like me "dumbasses or idiots" makes that person more of a dumbass than any of the people he is referring too. Do I say people that dont like the game are stupid.. Nah Nah? I’m rubber your ….. you get the point. If not, it aint that hard. And for the fact that none of the people who like the game have said anything mean that I have read yet… Makes the people that like it alittle more civil dont you think? This is a debate over what the good points were and were not over a game that came out over almost 7 years ago. So on that note. Can we keep it civil ladies?
First, let me say that your posts are hard to read because you don’t use proper spacing.
Now, I did not stereotype anyone. I allowed for the fact that not everyone is a certain way. However, the majority of rabid FFVII fans present themselves exactly as I described.
No one called you or anyone else a dumbass just for liking a game. The dumbass part comes in when people act like what I described in my last post.
Allow me to amend my earlier statement about FFVII fans not listening. They do not take the time to comprehend. Any dissenting opinion is the same to them and considered a personal attack.
And as for civility, I haven’t said anything uncivil, nor do I unless a personal attack is made against me. And as for saying that FFVII fans not responding to this thread makes them more civil, isn’t that stereotyping on your part?
<B>I am dissapointed it would come to a point where someone would call me a idiot for liking a game. That is a extremely ignorant thing to do.</B>
Personally, I never called you an idiot for liking the game. I believe I said more along the lines of "Most FFVII fans act like complete idiots". There is a huge difference between acting like an idiot, and actually being one.
<B>Am I the stupid one for not spending 16 dollars or so a month on a constant Hack and Slash game with no story or is it that I just dont see the point to playing the same thing over and over all day long and paying for it every month.</B>
First of all, I won’t ever buy a game where you have to pay a monthly fee. UNLESS, the game was excellent, I had enough money to waste, and the monthly cost wasn’t too much. So, I can’t really say anything about this one.
<B>I own that game and wish that I could return that waste of up to 80 or so dollars for 3 months of the same thing. So what I got to run through towns and talk and make teams. Hell I will just go to a chat room if I wanted to talk to people all day long. Or maybe play chess online it has the same level of interest to me. I dont think I am the idiot here my friend.</B>
Another sign of a hypocrite. Basically, you are calling us idiots for owning FFXI, because of the monthly fee and such. But, when you think you are being called an idiot for liking FFVII, you snap back and say that it is an ignorant thing to do. Again, I never called you an idiot.
<I>Originally posted by Prak</I>
<B>I think you are. This thread is meant to be a discussion of why FFVII is a good or bad game. It isn’t just a "Do you like FFVII?" poll. Do you feel threatened by people that offer opinions that differ from yours?</B>
Well I don’t think he is, yet. He is just acting like one right now.
<B>From what I’ve seen, no one has called anyone an idiot just for liking a game, except for you. And to do that after saying how stupid it is makes you a hypocrite.</B>
Exactly what I said, but you got to it first, and I didn’t see it until just now.
<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>lol. Oh you said it yourself my friend. Had you read up alittle I had already explained why I liked the game. And I came on today to find that someone had said that people who a fantatic of the FF VII series are I think if I remember correctly "complete dumbasses" I dont know how to quote yet so I cant find it myself. But it is back there and I being called an idiot for liking FF VII compared to FF XI. Not a very nice thing to say kiddies. So before you speak please know what you are speaking about.</B>
Well, I’m not the one that called you that. That was MogKnight, and I’m sure he has dealt with crap like this more than I have. I’m not saying it is true or not, but when you constantly hear people raving about FFVII, seeing how they act, and not being able to provide solid evidence, you tend to believe that they are idiots. And besides, you’re going to get upset when one person calls you something like that?
<I>Originally posted by groovytang</I>
<B>Why is FF7 Not a good game?
Because you haven’t played it before.
Why is FF7 A good game?
Because you have played it before.</B>
So, basically you’re saying that all of us who don’t like the game haven’t played it before? That has got to be the most idiotic thing I have read in a while.
<I>Originally posted by Prak</I>
<B>there’s a big difference between an idiot and a dumbass. By definition, an idiot is a person of low intelligence. You could have an IQ over 200 and still be a dumbass.</B>
Then what is the definition of a dumbass? No need to look it up, just look at all the FFVII fanatics we have today.
<B>And I absolutely agree with MogKnight about rabid FFVII fans being dumbasses. That’s because (in general) they never listen, never use reason, and always go on the offensive when someone tries to make them be reasonable. Attacking other people does not serve to make any kind of point, merely to draw attention away from the fact that they can’t support their opinions in a reasonable debate.</B>
The world of FFVII fans would <I>look</I> a lot more intelligent, if they supported their reasoning every now and then. It’s rare that you see one of them to it, so an improvement would be every now and then. Basically, there is the world of Final Fantasy fans, and then, separated by a huge margin, is the world of Final Fantasy VII fans.
<B>Again, let me remind you that I am speaking in general terms. There are individuals here and there who can hold their own in support of FFVII, just not many.</B>
And that is why we easily jump the gun and call just about every FFVII fan a complete dumbass. We are so used to it, that we automatically associate the two together. Believe it or not, it’s the sad truth.
<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>Idiot or Dumbass either one is offensive to say to someone who just likes a game.</B>
Then you should learn to lighten up a bit, if you get offensive with every little negative comment thrown your way.
<B>You are stereotyping people by the preference of what games they like. That is stupid.</B>
No, what is stupid, is the fact that you don’t see how we truly view the FFVII fans to be. I mean seriously, you don’t see it the same way we do, because you are one of them. But, if you actually paid very close attention to how FFVII fans act, the vast majority of them act like complete idiots. Why? I don’t know. And we aren’t stereotyping you for liking FFVII. If you like it, that is fine with me. If you think it is a wonderful game, fine with me. But, here is when the problem starts:
First, we start bashing the game.
Next, you start getting all offensive and crap.
Third, here comes the wave of "FFVII IS DA BEST GAME EVAR!".
Now, the bashers ask you why you believe this.
Next, you don’t have any real reasons. You just say it to hear yourself speak. You have believed it for the longest time, without ever really sitting down and thinking "What makes this game so good?"
Now do you understand why the world of FFVII fans appears to be so stupid?
<B>I listen to everyones view on the game.</B>
And we listen to yours, believe it or not.
<B>you people in here a very offesive over a game.</B>
Seriously, here, you sound like a total idiot. You are the one getting very offensive about this.
<B>Calling someone a dumbass or idiot is ridiculous over liking a game.</B>
How many times do I have to repeat myself!? You aren’t an idiot for liking a specific game. It’s the way you act, the way you speak, and the way you don’t back up the game that gives us that judgment of you.
<B>So to call other people who liked the game like me "dumbasses or idiots" makes that person more of a dumbass than any of the people he is referring too.</B>
It doesn’t make us more of an idiot. If you actually opened your eyes to what we keep trying to tell you about this whole "YOU’RE AN IDIOT" thing, you would realize the truth behind it.
<B>And for the fact that none of the people who like the game have said anything mean that I have read yet… Makes the people that like it alittle more civil dont you think?</B>
So now, the FFVII fans are acting civilized, while the rest of us aren’t? I never knew that calling someone an idiot for not backing up what they say is acting uncivilized!
<B>This is a debate over what the good points were and were not over a game that came out over almost 7 years ago.</B>
There really hasn’t been that much of a debate yet, on the part of all you FFVII fans.
<I>Originally posted by Brein</I>
<B>But to get on the subject of it being a good game, well Durendal has made a lot of points that you must admit are a well defense and I must agree that I understand why some of you dont think of it that way and that will be with everything every game.</B>
And you know what the irony is? Durendal isn’t acting like a complete dumbass, or a FFVII fanatic either. He is taking this calmly, and actually trying to make it into a debate.
<B>but you cant judge a game about marketing.</B>
Yes you can. A big factor that made FFVII such a popular game when it first came out, and ultimately, the self-promoted tag of "Greatest Game Ever", was the fact that everyone knew about it. Everyone learned so much more about this game before it came out, than previous Final Fantasy games. This just made the people thirst for the game even more. They purchased what they saw in marketing, which was the outside cover. They were addicted to this game. So yeah, we can judge it by how it was marketed.
I should start off by saying I don’t hate ALL final fantasy games, and I’ve played all of them up to a point. The Final fantasy series used to be synonamous with quality all of them in english for the SNES and I love them all. I just think that since FF7, the game has worn out its story and its like a really bad movie franchise that is trying to suck the money out of people. There has not been new innovation in that game since 7 except for graphics which shouldn’t make a game better than another. Every new one is the same old such and such character going to save some small part of his life (friend love interests ect, ect) then gets caught up in some big conspiracy that threatens the world (sound familiar?). There are always summons and magic ect ect. The game hasn’t changed in over 5 years and people still buy the product. Thats not to say that it can’t be done well. The best game was Final Fantasy tactics, and since then none have equaled. The storyline in that game was amazing and realistic. People actually die in that game, people turn on each other and war is made out to be a very very bad thing. It had huge undertones with Religion (no I mean real religion not like the stuff they tried to put out in FFX) where religious zealotry causes fear bigotry and death. Also in the new games, I just feel like I’m playing a cookie cuttered story with candy apple characters whenever I play anything above FF-7. Its like i’m playing a game of cliches now. Its like its been dumbed down for the level of children. If want a real hero i’ll play as Ramza Belouve in tactics … that was a real heroic character that had HUGE character development. Play Tactics and you will see what I mean.
Also most of the FF line isn’t really an RPG. Since the SNES games all FF has become is a storyline that you followed to get to the end of a story. there were always the ultimate combinations. In FF8 you might as well not use anything but summons since they could do 9999 damage which no physical attack could do. yeesh. Play a game like Baldurs Gate and they you will see what a real RPG is like.
well thats the end of my vent. Please come and criticize. I’m just sick and tired about people raving about how Final Fantasy is the greatest thing and how FFX-2 is the only sequal and its going to be great. No its not. I’m done with squaresoft now, all I can see now is them ripping the series for all its worth, not changing it just so they can make as much money off of it as possible.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5212
And finally:
Final Fantasy 7—-^
It’s not even fun anymore. If people cannot love FFVII WITHOUT hating everything that came later, what the heck?!
It’s exactly this "Square should have stopped making games after FFVII" attitude that pisses me off.
Hmmm… I would like to argue more for the game, but my mind is kinda set against it now. My argument for longevity was probably because I had nothing better to do, and my argument for innovation was only because I hadn’t played the earlier games at the time…
I guess I should retire or something.
Hi, my name is MogKnight and I’m a level 31… well, 30 Bard. In my world in which we call Vana’diel, we’re under constant attack from the Beastmen. I am a regular citizen of Windurst, I enjoy eating apple pies… heck, you give me an apple pie, I’ll be your best friend forever. I also like taking trips between my house and the local Auction House…. you know, the place where we trade goods. Every time I go there, I look around to see if there’s anyone I know around and give a wave or two.
I really enjoy fishing, practically like pulling money out of the water. What really pisses me off though is when you get something completely dumb that no one uses…. throw it away and fish again. There was this one time where I fished with my friends on the ship to Selbina… something huge attacked us and I was changed forever when he practially destroyed my friends. I wanted to fight that monster but I was too weak at the time… and still am. I intend to fish him out and destroy him and everything he stands for.
I do love a few people in Windurst… but I can’t reveal them. They already have someone else and really, I can’t just tell them straight out without ruining a good friendship. But I try to keep my Linkshell entertained with stories and folklore. Though sometimes I sit by myself, thinking about a horrible.. presense… something awful was going to happen and when that time comes, I have to fight. This fight, whatever it maybe, could determine who will be left standing in the end… either our allied nations or the beastmen.
I’m not exactly a hero but I’ve done many things in my life. I remember going through the Pashow Marsh with just my Chocobo and it ran off on me. It was so dark and gloomy that I could not find my way. I found a dead Tarutaru on the floor… I really did not want to end up like him, I strived to stay alive and managed to. I could not put it into words really but it was a great experience.
But who am I to the people of Windurst? Just a Tarutaru, no hero, nothing big. Just a Bard who sings his songs, keeping the party revved up. I also have Rivals such as Typo who is really just an eyesore!
I am MogKnight, a Level 30 Bard… how about you Cloud Strife? What is your favorite food? What do you like to do? Any memorable moments? Do you have any rivals? How about sports? I like playing Ballista. How about those you love? I’ve lost many on the battlefield, more than I would want to lose… so many lost… friends and allies… how about you? I heard you’re a Hero, saving the world. I’m greatful for that but… really, who are you? Do you like to take jogs like me? It’s kinda fun you know!
OKAY… Lets talk about Character Development!
Hi, my name is MogKnight and I’m a level 31… well, 30 Bard. In my world in which we call Vana’diel, we’re under constant attack from the Beastmen. I am a regular citizen of Windurst, I enjoy eating apple pies… heck, you give me an apple pie, I’ll be your best friend forever. I also like taking trips between my house and the local Auction House…. you know, the place where we trade goods. Every time I go there, I look around to see if there’s anyone I know around and give a wave or two.
I really enjoy fishing, practically like pulling money out of the water. What really pisses me off though is when you get something completely dumb that no one uses…. throw it away and fish again. There was this one time where I fished with my friends on the ship to Selbina… something huge attacked us and I was changed forever when he practially destroyed my friends. I wanted to fight that monster but I was too weak at the time… and still am. I intend to fish him out and destroy him and everything he stands for.
I do love a few people in Windurst… but I can’t reveal them. They already have someone else and really, I can’t just tell them straight out without ruining a good friendship. But I try to keep my Linkshell entertained with stories and folklore. Though sometimes I sit by myself, thinking about a horrible.. presense… something awful was going to happen and when that time comes, I have to fight. This fight, whatever it maybe, could determine who will be left standing in the end… either our allied nations or the beastmen.
I’m not exactly a hero but I’ve done many things in my life. I remember going through the Pashow Marsh with just my Chocobo and it ran off on me. It was so dark and gloomy that I could not find my way. I found a dead Tarutaru on the floor… I really did not want to end up like him, I strived to stay alive and managed to. I could not put it into words really but it was a great experience.
But who am I to the people of Windurst? Just a Tarutaru, no hero, nothing big. Just a Bard who sings his songs, keeping the party revved up. I also have Rivals such as Typo who is really just an eyesore!
I am MogKnight, a Level 30 Bard… how about you Cloud Strife? What is your favorite food? What do you like to do? Any memorable moments? Do you have any rivals? How about sports? I like playing Ballista. How about those you love? I’ve lost many on the battlefield, more than I would want to lose… so many lost… friends and allies… how about you? I heard you’re a Hero, saving the world. I’m greatful for that but… really, who are you? Do you like to take jogs like me? It’s kinda fun you know!
STFU and get a life
lol, i think i went to far joining this video game chatroom for Nerds, I’m outta here.
STFU and get a life
lol, i think i went to far joining this video game chatroom for Nerds, I’m outta here.
Please avoid off-topic idiocy, groovytang.
All in seriousness though, those who need to offend others kinda end up with nothing to say… so uh… checkmate? I think I won.
Valkyrie Profile
Legend of Legaia
Star Ocean: The Second Story
There are others, but these have comparable graphics and came out around the same time (unless I’m totally off, as they were all out at the same time when I actually bought FF7, all on the "new games" shelf at the store).
Each of them with incredible battle systems, musical scores and awesome storylines that utterly blow FF 7 out of the water.
So yeah, while I don’t wish FF7 fans would dry up and just blow away, I wish they’d pick up one of the three RPG’s I’ve just listed and try them.
They may have their eyes opened as to just how Square screwed them out of $20.
And you know what the irony is? Durendal isn’t acting like a complete dumbass, or a FFVII fanatic either. He is taking this calmly, and actually trying to make it into a debate.
Yes I am calm as well am I?
Marketing no reason for a bad game.
Originally posted by Smokey
Yes you can. A big factor that made FFVII such a popular game when it first came out, and ultimately, the self-promoted tag of "Greatest Game Ever", was the fact that everyone knew about it. Everyone learned so much more about this game before it came out, than previous Final Fantasy games. This just made the people thirst for the game even more. They purchased what they saw in marketing, which was the outside cover. They were addicted to this game. So yeah, we can judge it by how it was marketed.
No if any other game that you think is great has been thrown in your face over and over again on television the game would still be the same right? So the game cannot be judged by the way it was marketed because a game is a game and offcourse more people will buy it because they know of it through marketing but the game will always be the same, good or bad marketing.
You can judge the people playing the game by the marketing because every person that says yeah ff7 is tha bomb bla bla has been influenced by the marketing but the game? no it is not bad because more people are told about it.
<B>No if any other game that you think is great has been thrown in your face over and over again on television the game would still be the same right? So the game cannot be judged by the way it was marketed because a game is a game and offcourse more people will buy it because they know of it through marketing but the game will always be the same, good or bad marketing.</B>
Actually, no. Let’s take another great game for example. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is an excellent game. Sure, there was advertising and marketing for it, but not nearly as much as FFVII. If it had received the special treatment that FFVII had, KOTOR would be a lot more popular it is right now. And yes, people would view it as being a lot better, because they would have been able to see what the game truly has to offer, without first buying it. A huge reason FFVII became what it is today is from the incredible amount of marketing it received.
I’m not sure if this is true or not, but I believe this. FFVII is the most marketed game in history. Just look at AC, and Before Crisis. Whether you believe it or not, this movie and game is a gimmick in trying to make sure FFVII does go down as the greatest game in history. Don’t you find it coincidence that so many people see FFVII as the best game ever when it received as much marketing as it did?
<B>You can judge the people playing the game by the marketing because every person that says yeah ff7 is tha bomb bla bla has been influenced by the marketing but the game? no it is not bad because more people are told about it.</B>
Yes. People who say FFVII is the bomb, have been greatly influenced by the marketing.
changed my mind.
I’m now thinking I had been overrating this game, it’s still cool though.
I was indeed a FF7 Fan, who didn’t come up with specific evidence for why I thought FF7 was the best.
Uh, there are some things for me to say though.
The Materia System is great, surely it was fun to think of various kind of combinatioins.
Yes, it made characters not individual, but I thought it was done for some reason.
The reason for players don’t choose characters because of just their status.
You know it’s kind of a pity when you like a character in a game but he/she is so weak or can’t work on your tactics.
Provided that doesn’t happen, you can choose whatever characters you like without worrying, but if you complain about system that makes characters not individual, it’s same as systems in some other FFs such as Job in FF5 and Junction in FF8.
It’s obvious they put Limit Breaks to let characters have something to distinguish, it didn’t really work well , but better than nothing.
The story is cool but,,,, I don’t think I judged it calmly during my first playing, probably I was sucked in it not because of storyline but because of its new things that RPGs at the time didn’t have, such as cool graphics, the whole aspect based on semi-modern period.
The RPGs generally had aspects of old western, like soldier riding on horse, something like that, maybe there were RPGs based on the modern time, anyway I didn’t think there were, correct me if I’m wrong.
Yes, this was my first RPG and it actually made me think this game was great.
How did aeris "sacrrfice" herself? She was just killed… she didn’t actually help anything. Sephiroth just came down and killed her ass for no reason.
Didn’t she know that Sephiroth was coming to kill, if she started spelling Holly?
I distinctly remember sitting and staring at the screen going "couldn’t they space this out more?" Everything you get is in large clumps. I will give you that the clumps may be spread throughout the game, but all the information you get is pilled on top of itself at seemingly random parts of the game, rather than spread out evenly throughout the entire game, making for choppy gameplay as well as causing the story to suffer (if you won???t admit that the story suffers because of that at least concede that it hinders the progression of the game by having to sit through 10 minutes of talk).
Yes, you do get information in clumps, but not everything is in large clumps, there are smaller clumps too. Also most rpgs give you information in clumps, it works, unless you want half minute dialogues after every fight clumps is the way to go. Sitting through 10 minutes of talk can be annoying, but it can also be done well (the Nibblehiem flashback comes to mind). I really don’t think 10 minutes of talk hinders the game much, now if you end up with more talk than actual gameplay (i.e. FFX) then it becomes a problem.
You pretty much saw Kefka throughout the entire world of Balance in FFVI, you also know exactly where he is in the World of Ruin. You saw Golbez an awful lot in FFIV. In FFV Gilgamesh is frekin everywhere, though he was closest to Rufus in the regards that they just sort of threw him in there whenever they needed a boss or something.
Maybe it’s just me but Kefka seemed like comic relief for most of the WOB, and in the WOR he’s just that guy in the tower that burns villages every so often. I can’t really comment on Gobez or Gilgamesh since it’s been over two years since I last played FFIV, and my FFV game file has gotten deleted on 3 seperate occasions when I was roughly 7 hours into the game and I’m just sick of that begining. There are more than just the main villains too, my comment was aimed more along those lines. I feel Rufus had a place in the game and wasn’t just random, a boss like that giant lizard guy when Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris are thrown into the sewers by the Don would fit under random.
Go back to my first post. The only reason I played it a second time was to check to see what I missed. I’m not sure if I specifically SAID that in my first post, so I can see why you would mention this. I really had no intention of playing it again once I beat it, but my friends hounded me about how I HAD to have missed something because I didn’t use the guide.
Just to find a few things that I might have missed, if I didn’t enjoy the game at all, would never convince me to replay a game that lasts more than a few hours. Which is why I assumed there was something you enjoyed in that first playthrough, if this assumption is wrong then you can just ignore everything I’ve said pertaining to it.
Then I wait for the day you come on to FFShrine and say that the game blew chunks. 😛
I’ll be waiting for that day too, but I get the strange feeling we’ll both be waiting a very, very long time 😎
Can you give examples? Not trying to be difficult, I just can’t think of any and I don’t know if it is because there isn’t any, or because I’m just naturally prone to think there isn’t.
How about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa? The game never flat out tells you wether it’s a repressed romance or a brotherly and sisterly kind of love.
I doubt surveys have been done, and seem as it is complete speculation on our part there really isn’t any way to PROVE it, but it really does seem like it was meant to be presented to an audience around the ages of 12-16. I wonder how easy it would be to get an answer from Square on this one.
I agree the game seems to have been marketed to 12-16 year olds, what I meant was that 12-16 year olds was an older group than the average NES/SNES gamers. Good luck getting an answer out of Square, I doubt if many of the people involved with the marketing still worked there, or if they do that they would bother answering about a game 7 years old.
I have no problem with people that aren’t out to prove that FFVII is the greatest game in the world or that it has the most amazing story ever written. The fact of the matters is that the story in FFV is horrid, but I LOVE the game because it is just so entertaining to play. What irks me, and is the main reason I made this thread to begin with, are those people who feel that FFVII is the greatest game (or even THING) to ever grace this world, and that blindly say so without having anything to back it up
Yeah, those who seem to think this game was handed down to mankind from God himself and constantly say things like "Cloud rOxOrs" or "Sephy makes me cream jeans!" are annoying. But the title of this thread is "FF7 – Why it ISN’T a good game" and how your first post was worded seemed to try and prove that this is a bad game, I’m simply defending my opinion of this being a good game.
I don’t know… I got pretty damn addicted to Blitzball, and I really didn’t like playing the mini-games in FFVII. The only one I really enjoyed was racing chocobos, but there are only so many times you can go around that track before it gets outright repetitive. I’m kind of running low on time so I’m going to try and keep this short. But, I do have to comment on how the storyline seemed much more straightforward in terms of what you had to do next in the game, which is why I made the last comment in the paragraph you quoted. There is never any question in the characters mind as to what must be done or where they have to go. That’s the point I was trying to get across.
Blitzball was a great mini-game, in fact I thought Blitzball was the best thing about FFX, but that’s for another time. You’ll noticed I said "allmost all", which leaves room for the few that are as fun, or even more fun (GASP!?) than FFVII, but there aren’t many. There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII. That’s not to say there were some real stinkers in FFVII too, the basketball arcade game anyone? You have to admit it’s hard to argue with the variety and quality of mini-games in FFVII when compared to the vast majority of rpgs.
Hence why I called it a cop out. There’s no ENDING, it’s just "yeah, it’s all plants now, see ya". An ending to a book, a story, or a game should leave you with more than you started. It’s ok to leave you hanging in some respects, but to just completely write out every single character from the ending but one is kind of, for lack of a better term, crappy. The fact is that it DOES NOT leave you with a sense of completeness and, for the majority of people; it was more a reaction of "what the fuck is this?" Hence the Matrix reference.
Well there is an ending, and considering that you start with nothing the ending leaves you with a lot more than that. After watching the ending, sitting through the credits, and seeing the final ending movie I felt the story was completed very well (which is why I’m not a big fan of the FFVII:AC concept).
In a short answer, it’s not. However, the ending for FFIV worked much better for that particular game than the ending of FFVII worked for it, for all the reasons I’ve said.
I feel both endings worked well for their respective games, I just happen to prefer the FFVII ending. FFVII was a darker game, so it fits that the ending be darker as well.
I don’t think anyone let someone get to near death just to see the limit breaks, and if they did it wouldn???t be in a situation that the party was in any real danger. However, two comments I have to make. First is that if you need extra oomph in battles where you receive a lot of damage then wouldn’t it also be reasonable to assume that if your characters are spending enough time at "near death" status to be able to use their limits that you would need that extra oomph? The second point would be that you could argue the Limit system in FFVII makes it too easy to kill bosses because you could have your limit fill out without being in any serious danger, meaning you get an extra powerful attack that tips the scales in a challenging battle so far in your favor that it makes it an easy battle instead, ruining some of the gameplay aspect. This same argument doesn’t work with FFVI because, as you pointed out, it is dangerous to stay at a near death status.
I didn’t say people let someone get to/stay at near death just to use the limit breaks, just that it was dangerous so using the limit breaks instead of brining the character’s health up wasn’t a very good idea, hence limit breaks were very rarely used (I think I saw two of them the last time I played FFVI). None of the limit breaks in FFVII could give you such an advantage as to make a hard fight easy just by using a limit break, until you get the final limit breaks for a few characters, but that doesn’t happen until the end game and even then you need to do side-quests to get them, so for the vast majority of the game limit breaks won’t make challenging fights easy.
Terra and Celes are the only two that I see as really unbalanced in FFVI. Locke had steal, or mug, which really takes a lot of devotion on the player’s part to make powerful. Edgar never really had that powerful magic when I played with him. Besides, the hardest part of FFVI is Kefka’s tower. If you were to assume that all 4 of those characters was unbalanced, merely having them in your 3 parties would NOT mean that you could get through that blasted thing. However, in FFVII you only listed 2 of 9 characters as being unable to use a decent amount of magic. From what I remember the only character that is really weak physically is Areis, and like I said, she isn’t in your final party. This means that you have at least 7 versatile characters to use. The most parties you ever have to make are 2. This means that you don’t even have to use the characters that aren’t easily exchangeable ability wise.
I was using those 4 characters to show that there have been characters before FFVII that can fill any role. And 4 characters fills the entire party in FFVI, except for the few times you need to split up your party those 4 are versatile enough to deal with anything. Cait Sith and Yuffie really aren’t good with either magic or physical attacks, so that leaves 5 versatile characters, and even so I don’t see how this contributes to FFVII being a bad game.
This was a separate point from paragraph before it in my post. It was more of a comment on the fact that you can’t customize your abilities for what you need in games like that and instead have to work with what you have, as opposed to FFVII where you can make anyone whatever you need at any given time. It wasn’t a comment about having to think more or less, though I COULD argue that FFVII still requires less thinking because instead of having to figure out how each character’s abilities best complement each other you can MAKE that character either a) complement the other members of the party or b) make 3 completely independent characters, depending on your needs at that given time.
The fact that you have a choice like that suggests that thinking needs to be done.
Since my last post I actually talked with someone I knew that was working in a store that sells games at the time FFVII came out. Turns out that they were, in fact, told to offer the guide when the game sold. I couldn’t say if it was the same for each store, and he didn’t know if it was just that one store or every store that sold FFVII. However, the fact is that, at least at that one store, the clerks were told to pressure people to buy the guide with FFVII. They were also never pressured to sell a guide for another game before or since. Well, I can’t say that. They might have after he quit a year ago. For the record, I didn’t go and ask him, I happened to be talking with him about past jobs and it just sort of popped into my head to ask him when he brought up the toy store.
Ok so it did happen, but isn’t that the coice of each individual retailer to have their clerks pressure customers?
You could still get far enough in the game with the 2-3 days to see if you like it or not, though
2-3 days of playing this game from the begining and I’d still be in Midgar or just have left that city, the game changes a lot from the midgar section to when you can explore the world map.
Regarding Odin’s post:
Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean: The Second Story are both amazing games (I found Legend of Legia to be very average), but just because better games are out there does not make FFVII a bad one.
I especially like your last comment. Yes there are other great games out there. As a matter of fact I think I have played almost everyone out there. And because there are great games out there does not make FFVII a bad game.
I personally enjoyed Star Ocean: A Second Story. Which is why I will be going out to buy Star Ocean 3. (Sorry forgot the Title). I also think that Chrono Trigger was a great RPG. Final Fantasy Tatics was great. Legend of Dragoon also. I also enjoyed FFX. But it was extremely easy. Not a bad game but easy. I have not ran across a bad RPG since Shadow Hearts. Which is why I didnt complete it.
And if this game is so bad then why did you finish it? It was good enough to keep your interest for one go around. Of course there are flaws. Geez it was Squares first attempt on the Playstation. They didnt have much to work with.
And what is wrong with marketing? Sure Square was famous with all the hard core RPGers but was there really alot of them out there at that time? They needed an audience. Or we wouldnt be here today. We wouldnt have games like FFX to say "Man that was easy". Or Before Crisis. Or FFXIII. Or SquareEnix. No we wouldnt.
Yes it was a gateway game. So what? Does that make it a bad game. Not at all. Smartly made. Made for the general. Made easy to play. General Story. One most could follow and enjoy. A great Villian. An interesting magic system. You dont like it because it didnt have complexity. No jobs. No challenge. To me it was a challenge. To me it was complex. To me the story wasnt straight foward. I enjoyed the twist and turns. I enjoyed its simplicity. It was fun. It made me laugh. At points I felt sad. The music was rememberable. This is to me. Not you. Does that make it a bad game. Not by my standards. Mine.
This is where the hard part comes to play. I understand to the HardCore Veterans it was a simple pointless game. But to me. It was a game sent from the Gods at SquareSoft. No I am not a fantatic but I remember what got me started on my RPG rampage. And back into Video games. I really enjoyed the game. Why? Why you want to know? What was so great about it? Let me just say it still makes me laugh. I still love finding and buying the Materia. Hearing of its orgin. Watching Sepithroth go crazy. Fighting the Turks. This discussion is like agruing over a movie. It all depends on the views of the person. Some may like it. Some may not. Do you not understand that? Agruing opinions is like agruing different religions. Nobody is wrong but nobody is going to convince the other that they are right.
<B>Sitting through 10 minutes of talk can be annoying, but it can also be done well(the Nibblehiem flashback comes to mind).</B>
That is probably the only scene that comes to mind, not just the first one.
<B>Maybe it’s just me but Kefka seemed like comic relief for most of the WOB, and in the WOR he’s just that guy in the tower that burns villages every so often.</B>
Well, Kefka did have some funny lines, if that is what you mean by comic relief. But that’s a different topic.
<B>I can’t really comment on Gobez</B>
The great thing about FFIV is you think that Golbez is the villian of the game for a long time. Golbez controls Kain during two points in the game. But then, you find out, that someone is in fact controlling Golbez. And that is Zemus (Later to be found out as Zemorus). So, there was a long chain of manipulating in this game, and I thought it was great.
<B>I feel Rufus had a place in the game and wasn’t just random</B>
I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus’s father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn’t add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can’t be stopped.
<B>How about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa? The game never flat out tells you wether it’s a repressed romance or a brotherly and sisterly kind of love.</B>
And that is pretty dumb as well. You sit there thinking a lot more about whether Tifa or Aeris deserves Cloud more than you should. It would have been better if something like this was settled.
<B>There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII.</B>
The motorcycle game is fun when you play it two or three times. Then, just like almost all the mini-games in FFVII, they become stale very quickly.
<B>You have to admit it’s hard to argue with the variety and quality of mini-games in FFVII when compared to the vast majority of rpgs.</B>
Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don’t feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren’t mini-games supposed to give you <I>at least</I> a descent reward?
<B>After watching the ending, sitting through the credits, and seeing the final ending movie I felt the story was completed very well (which is why I’m not a big fan of the FFVII:AC concept).</B>
Yes, I thought the ending wrapped things up pretty nicely. It’s just not very good at all. I admit, I will watch AC when it comes out. But, I still don’t see how they can make a sequel to the game. Maybe Square just wanted to squeeze more money from FFVII. They may also believe that the ending of FFVII wrapped things up rather nicely, and that is why they made a sequel into a movie, and not a game. There is a huge difference as to what you can put into a movie, next to a game. So, maybe the sequel is a movie because they didn’t want to make another game that could possibly make FFVII appear worse, and less popular.
Also, this is about the character situation in FFVI. There are just too many, period. Seven or eight is a reasonable ammount, but 14!?
<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>Thank you durendal. I could not have said it any better.</B>
Yes, you are correct on this one. In fact, you couldn’t have said anything for reliable evidence.
<B>I especially like your last comment. Yes there are other great games out there. As a matter of fact I think I have played almost everyone out there. And because there are great games out there does not make FFVII a bad game.</B>
I highly doubt that you have played every great game out there. And besides, I’m pretty sure none of us said a factor that makes FFVII a bad game is the fact that there are other great games out there.
<B>I also think that Chrono Trigger was a great RPG.</B>
You finally said something worth reading.
<B>And if this game is so bad then why did you finish it? It was good enough to keep your interest for one go around. Of course there are flaws. Geez it was Squares first attempt on the Playstation. They didnt have much to work with.</B>
Why wouldn’t we finish it? It’s not like while we were playing it, the thought of "This game will suck through the very end, so I don’t need to finish it" came through our minds. There was no way for us to know if it would get any better or any worse. That is why we play on ’til the very end. And let me emphasize a point you said. Yes, it was good enough that it KEPT ME INTERESTED FOR ONE GO AROUND. Meaning, I wasn’t hooked to the game while playing it. I wouldn’t die if I weren’t able to play it all the time. When I had free time, I would play it, because it KEPT ME INTERESTED. I didn’t say the game was interesting, I just said it KEPT ME INTERESTED. See my point?
<B>And what is wrong with marketing?</B> There is nothing wrong with marketing at all. But, it’s a problem when you do it solely for the purpose of boosting sales. I mean seriously, FFVII is the most money-milking game in history, there is no doubt about it. Seven years after it came out, Square is still trying to market the game. They need to leave it alone, and concentrate on more important aspects of gaming.
<B>Yes it was a gateway game. So what? Does that make it a bad game. Not at all. Smartly made. Made for the general. Made easy to play. General Story. One most could follow and enjoy. A great Villian. An interesting magic system. You dont like it because it didnt have complexity. No jobs. No challenge. To me it was a challenge. To me it was complex. To me the story wasnt straight foward. I enjoyed the twist and turns. I enjoyed its simplicity. It was fun. It made me laugh. At points I felt sad. The music was rememberable. This is to me. Not you. Does that make it a bad game. Not by my standards. Mine.</B>
You are overreacting, just like all the FFVII fans when they hear someone say something negative about the game.
<B>This is where the hard part comes to play. I understand to the HardCore Veterans it was a simple pointless game. But to me. It was a game sent from the Gods at SquareSoft.</B>
If you are to be considered a "God" at SquareSoft (Called that at the time), I would hope you would need to write and create a brilliant game.
<B>I really enjoyed the game. Why? Why you want to know? What was so great about it? Let me just say it still makes me laugh. I still love finding and buying the Materia. Hearing of its orgin. Watching Sepithroth go crazy. Fighting the Turks.</B>
You love the game because it makes you laugh? You love spending a ton of Gil on Materia? You love watching Sephiroth go crazy? You love fighting the Turks? To all these questions, I ask why? I mean, when you saw Sephiroth go crazy, you just didn’t suddenly think "I love this!". No, there is a reason why you had to think that.
Yes it was a gateway game. So what? Does that make it a bad game. Not at all. Smartly made. Made for the general. Made easy to play. General Story. One most could follow and enjoy. A great Villian. An interesting magic system. You dont like it because it didnt have complexity. No jobs. No challenge. To me it was a challenge. To me it was complex. To me the story wasnt straight foward. I enjoyed the twist and turns. I enjoyed its simplicity. It was fun. It made me laugh. At points I felt sad. The music was rememberable. This is to me. Not you. Does that make it a bad game. Not by my standards. Mine.
Yeah, thank you for sounding like you’re a guy with a life and I’m not. Is it true? Probably. But you know what, I really doubt that this thread is about how good or bad the game is anymore. No, this thread is really about how the "hardcore" hate the "casuals".
Just to say it straight out, if you like the game, good. If you hate the game, good. Just don’t say anything about your opinion towards liking this game or not because frankly I’m tired of it and so are many others. The "hardcore" are offending the "casuals" and like wise. Normally opinions are free to lay out… but of course, so are counter-opinions. But sometimes we just need to listen to our 3rd grade teacher or our parents when they say "Keep your thoughts to yourself."
Right now, this post brings a lot of good points from both sides but to put it bluntly, it’s just like saying "your mom’s stupid" or "my mom is the greatest mom in the world and everyone else’s mom doesn’t matter". Someone is bound to be offended and they’ll talk back.
This topic is getting old… heck, I want to slap RM for making a thread like this but I’d probably have my eyes gauged out. Yes he presented points and yeah I’ve done the same thing before. But now I realize that it doesn’t matter. You’re still going to defend your precious Final Fantasy 7 and we’re going to bitch because you’re making a god out of a rock. Maybe both sides just need to shut up and talk about something else constructive like what kind of Music would Cloud be associated with… or what would the Final Fantasy 7 characters do after leveling up… maybe go to a pub or something and play Cricket.
Basically all I’m saying is that whatever is in this thread, only Smokey, Durandel, probably RM… I dunno I haven’t looked back, cares to actually post.
Also, we should all go out and have a drink of beer.
Originally posted by Smokey
The motorcycle game is fun when you play it two or three times. Then, just like almost all the mini-games in FFVII, they become stale very quickly.
Well it is a MINI-game so it means you cant spend 10 hours on it. It is just meant to be fun for 1 or 2 hours and maybe later you can play it again for an hour (sometimes even more time then you would need to finish an entire game). And I must admit Blitzball is an exception that game is great, but gets stale after a period of time as well so…
Originally posted by Smokey
There is nothing wrong with marketing at all. But, it’s a problem when you do it solely for the purpose of boosting sales. I mean seriously, FFVII is the most money-milking game in history, there is no doubt about it. Seven years after it came out, Square is still trying to market the game. They need to leave it alone, and concentrate on more important aspects of gaming.
Ow I learned at school that marketing is used only for boosting sales.
And to get back at marketing making it a bad game, how can that be? Yes the view of people is other then when it is not marketed but the game doesnt change because there is marketing for it or not. It is impossible to judge a game because of the way it is marketed, yes you can judge the view of the game because a lot of people think the game is better because of this marketing.
I???m from the Netherlands and I have seen maybe 2 commercials of the game so marketing in the Netherlands was not really big or anything… I first knew about the game because of CVG (computer & Video Games) and I got totally mad because of what they were saying and thats why we got it, because of good previews and reviews.
Originally posted by MogKnight
Yeah, thank you for sounding like you’re a guy with a life and I’m not. Is it true? Probably. But you know what, I really doubt that this thread is about how good or bad the game is anymore. No, this thread is really about how the "hardcore" hate the "casuals".
Just to say it straight out, if you like the game, good. If you hate the game, good. Just don’t say anything about your opinion towards liking this game or not because frankly I’m tired of it and so are many others. The "hardcore" are offending the "casuals" and like wise. Normally opinions are free to lay out… but of course, so are counter-opinions. But sometimes we just need to listen to our 3rd grade teacher or our parents when they say "Keep your thoughts to yourself."
Right now, this post brings a lot of good points from both sides but to put it bluntly, it’s just like saying "your mom’s stupid" or "my mom is the greatest mom in the world and everyone else’s mom doesn’t matter". Someone is bound to be offended and they’ll talk back.
This topic is getting old… heck, I want to slap RM for making a thread like this but I’d probably have my eyes gauged out. Yes he presented points and yeah I’ve done the same thing before. But now I realize that it doesn’t matter. You’re still going to defend your precious Final Fantasy 7 and we’re going to bitch because you’re making a god out of a rock. Maybe both sides just need to shut up and talk about something else constructive like what kind of Music would Cloud be associated with… or what would the Final Fantasy 7 characters do after leveling up… maybe go to a pub or something and play Cricket.
Basically all I’m saying is that whatever is in this thread, only Smokey, Durandel, probably RM… I dunno I haven’t looked back, cares to actually post.
Also, we should all go out and have a drink of beer.
This is the smartest thing I???ve read in this thread!!! Let???s stop this.. Get a beer its Saturday!!
Yes, you do get information in clumps, but not everything is in large clumps, there are smaller clumps too. Also most rpgs give you information in clumps, it works, unless you want half minute dialogues after every fight clumps is the way to go. Sitting through 10 minutes of talk can be annoying, but it can also be done well (the Nibblehiem flashback comes to mind). I really don’t think 10 minutes of talk hinders the game much, now if you end up with more talk than actual gameplay (i.e. FFX) then it becomes a problem.
Actually, it seems to me that there is far more talk in FFVII than any other FF that I’ve played. The party ALWAYS seems to be stopping and just having a 10-15 minute conversation. This is part of what largely hindered the reply value for me, as well. Games that you have to sit though large dialogs just get really annoying when you already know the story. For example, I really like playing FFTA but every time I feel like starting a new game I just don’t because the opening is so frekin long I would rather just play DW4 instead or something.
Maybe it’s just me but Kefka seemed like comic relief for most of the WOB, and in the WOR he’s just that guy in the tower that burns villages every so often.
In the WOB he is introduced through comic relief, but throughout the story he evolves into just this hideously evil person. They add a good amount of humor in there, but that just adds to the shock when you find out that he is mainly just a conniving bastard bent on becoming the most powerful being in the world.
I can’t really comment on Gobez or Gilgamesh since it’s been over two years since I last played FFIV, and my FFV game file has gotten deleted on 3 seperate occasions when I was roughly 7 hours into the game and I’m just sick of that begining. There are more than just the main villains too, my comment was aimed more along those lines. I feel Rufus had a place in the game and wasn’t just random, a boss like that giant lizard guy when Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris are thrown into the sewers by the Don would fit under random.
Golbez isn’t the last boss in FFIV, as for Gilgamesh, he is this guy that just constantly pops up out of nowhere to cause your party trouble, with no real reason. Much like Rufus.
Just to find a few things that I might have missed, if I didn’t enjoy the game at all, would never convince me to replay a game that lasts more than a few hours. Which is why I assumed there was something you enjoyed in that first playthrough, if this assumption is wrong then you can just ignore everything I’ve said pertaining to it.
It was mainly because my friends didn’t believe that I could have possibly gotten everything so they forced me to replay it. Truth be known, when I got near the end I read ahead in the guide and realized I hadn’t missed anything in the rest of the game. Once I knew that I didn’t even bother completing it the second time.
How about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa? The game never flat out tells you wether it’s a repressed romance or a brotherly and sisterly kind of love.
I always thought that it was pretty obvious what was going on there. :/
I agree the game seems to have been marketed to 12-16 year olds, what I meant was that 12-16 year olds was an older group than the average NES/SNES gamers.
Mind showing me where you got this statistic from?
Yeah, those who seem to think this game was handed down to mankind from God himself and constantly say things like "Cloud rOxOrs" or "Sephy makes me cream jeans!" are annoying. But the title of this thread is "FF7 – Why it ISN’T a good game" and how your first post was worded seemed to try and prove that this is a bad game, I’m simply defending my opinion of this being a good game.
I don’t think it is a good game. And I am trying to prove it isn’t a good game. However, I don’t have a problem with someone who likes it as long as he or she just doesn’t blindly like it. If someone likes it then fine, but I’m going to pretty much always think that the person’s reasons for liking the game are silly. Hope that doesn’t come across as offensive, but it’s true. Unless of course the person is like "it was the first game I every played, and it was with my brother who passed away" or something. In that case I can understand why the game would hold a special place for that person.
Blitzball was a great mini-game, in fact I thought Blitzball was the best thing about FFX, but that’s for another time. You’ll noticed I said "allmost all", which leaves room for the few that are as fun, or even more fun (GASP!?) than FFVII, but there aren’t many. There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII. That’s not to say there were some real stinkers in FFVII too, the basketball arcade game anyone? You have to admit it’s hard to argue with the variety and quality of mini-games in FFVII when compared to the vast majority of rpgs.
Dragon Warrior IV had an entire Casino, much like the Gold Saucer. It was for the NES, mind you. It had just as many mini-games as FFVII, all of which I find much more entertaining than FFVII.
Well there is an ending, and considering that you start with nothing the ending leaves you with a lot more than that. After watching the ending, sitting through the credits, and seeing the final ending movie I felt the story was completed very well (which is why I’m not a big fan of the FFVII:AC concept).
The ending doesn’t leave you with anything. If it did then you would have a clue if anything you did in the game actually had a point. It’s almost like "LOLZ GOT U EVRY1 DIED NE WAYZ LOLZZZ!" Granted it could be argued that something completely different happened, but that’s my point. They made an ending that you can pretty much make into anything you want, because they didn’t have a damn clue how to end it. They didn’t TRY to make a good ending; all they did was cover their asses because they couldn’t think of a good one.
I feel both endings worked well for their respective games, I just happen to prefer the FFVII ending. FFVII was a darker game, so it fits that the ending be darker as well.
I really can’t see how FFVII can be considered a "darker" game.
I didn’t say people let someone get to/stay at near death just to use the limit breaks, just that it was dangerous so using the limit breaks instead of brining the character’s health up wasn’t a very good idea…
I didn’t say that people would stay at near death just to use it, either. But if a character was at near death and unable to heal then using a limit break certainly wouldn’t be a bad option.
None of the limit breaks in FFVII could give you such an advantage as to make a hard fight easy just by using a limit break, until you get the final limit breaks for a few characters, but that doesn’t happen until the end game and even then you need to do side-quests to get them, so for the vast majority of the game limit breaks won’t make challenging fights easy.
In the very first battle of FFVII you probably won’t win unless you have limit breaks. This means that the developers intended them to be a key part of the game. However, they did not take into account that later on, when you have the ability to cure whenever you want and it isn’t a race to kill the boss before it kills you, that limit breaks just tend to flip the odds completely in your favor.
I was using those 4 characters to show that there have been characters before FFVII that can fill any role. And 4 characters fills the entire party in FFVI, except for the few times you need to split up your party those 4 are versatile enough to deal with anything. Cait Sith and Yuffie really aren’t good with either magic or physical attacks, so that leaves 5 versatile characters, and even so I don’t see how this contributes to FFVII being a bad game.
Without even arguing the weakness of Cait Sith and Yuffie, I fail to see having 4 people that are versatile in a 4 person party system is worse than having 5 people that are versatile in a 3 person party system. Not to mention the fact that, like I said, in FFVII you only split into 2 parties. This means that you can still have a full party of 3 great characters, and then another with 2 great characters and 1 that isn’t great with magic but still capable of doing insane amounts of damage. This makes FFVII much easier to manage party wise, which is why I was using it as an example to why it is a bad game. It doesn’t present any challenge what so ever when it comes to party formation, at any part in the game. Granted near the end of FFVI you have no problems party wise either, but it is a serious problem for most people the first time they play through.
The fact that you have a choice like that suggests that thinking needs to be done.
Key word in what I said being "less".
Ok so it did happen, but isn’t that the coice of each individual retailer to have their clerks pressure customers?
It’s just rather interesting that all 3 times I witnessed the game being bought clerks pressured the person to buy a guide, and that I recently came to find out that they were instructed to in one store. If it happened in one store it more than likely happened in more, and I find it hard to believe that it was 100% the store’s idea.
2-3 days of playing this game from the begining and I’d still be in Midgar or just have left that city, the game changes a lot from the midgar section to when you can explore the world map.
You said that Aeris dies 17 hours into the game, and that is pretty far into the game. It is very easy to play a game for 17 hours in 2-3 days if you like it enough. If you don’t like it then playing it to that point wouldn’t really matter to you.
Actually, it seems to me that there is far more talk in FFVII than any other FF that I’ve played. The party ALWAYS seems to be stopping and just having a 10-15 minute conversation. This is part of what largely hindered the reply value for me, as well. Games that you have to sit though large dialogs just get really annoying when you already know the story. For example, I really like playing FFTA but every time I feel like starting a new game I just don’t because the opening is so frekin long I would rather just play DW4 instead or something.
The dialogues on FFVII, are indeed incredibly long. So long that when you are in the Kalm inn, and Cloud is telling the others about his past, you are able to save your game in between it.
And that’s exactly why threads like this onealways end up in some sort of war.
The stout FF7 fans simply say: "That’s YOUR opinion, so shut up, I like the game but I am NOT telling YOU why!"
Isn’t it possible to just talk – in a friendly way – about WHY you like the game, and maybe admit that yes, some parts are a bit dumb, and it’s understandable that people who don’t like this, or who prefer that, don’t like FF7 too much.
If all you’re going to yell is that "all you FF7 haters" should get out of this forum and leave the fans to their praising of the game.
Instead, tolerate that maybe there are people who actually want to talk about why they think FF7 isn’t a very good game, and there is no other place to do this than the FF7 forum.
So if you are really unwilling to defend your opinion and explain WHY you think FF7 is good, and at the same time want to complain that people don’t share your opinion and DARE share it, then do not post in here. 🙁
Well now, that’s highly unfair of you to say, since there have been threads in which FFVII fans have defended themselves with full explanations of why they love FFVII more than any other. Perhaps people are unwilling to share their opinions because they are sick and tired of sharing it and repeating themselves to forgetful opposition? I know I’ve already explained it. Is it that critics are always met with personally good reasons, and try again and again in the hopes that fans will forget our reasons and fold into your opinions. Anyway, what so wrong about being an FFVII nut? I played it after I played all the other FF games (except X), yet I still came away liking VII vastly more than any other. That’s not to say that the others are bad in any way. It’s really a matter of taste and opinion, which everyone is entitled to, much like movies and music. Granted, some movies and music are steaming piles of crap, but there are people who get quality enjoyment from them, and there is no way to convince them otherwise. The more time I spend online, the more I realize the futility of these arguments online, and the less reason I have to be here at all. We argue over who is right and who is wrong about such silly things that have no right or wrong answer. It’s just ridiculous. I’m not discouraging any criticism of the game. By all means, go ahead, it’s fine with me. What bothers me is the superiority FFVII critics impose and try to make fans feel inferior. Perhaps confidence in some of the critics is so low that they have to tear down others just to feel on par with everyone else (almost like drug-use) while hiding behind a computer screen? Now THAT is pathetic.
Well now, that’s highly unfair of you to say, since there have been threads in which FFVII fans have defended themselves with full explanations of why they love FFVII more than any other. Perhaps people are unwilling to share their opinions because they are sick and tired of sharing it and repeating themselves to forgetful opposition? I know I’ve already explained it. Is it that critics are always met with personally good reasons, and try again and again in the hopes that fans will forget our reasons and fold into your opinions. Anyway, what so wrong about being an FFVII nut? I played it after I played all the other FF games (except X), yet I still came away liking VII vastly more than any other. That’s not to say that the others are bad in any way. It’s really a matter of taste and opinion, which everyone is entitled to, much like movies and music. Granted, some movies and music are steaming piles of crap, but there are people who get quality enjoyment from them, and there is no way to convince them otherwise. The more time I spend online, the more I realize the futility of these arguments online, and the less reason I have to be here at all. We argue over who is right and who is wrong about such silly things that have no right or wrong answer. It’s just ridiculous. I’m not discouraging any criticism of the game. By all means, go ahead, it’s fine with me. What bothers me is the superiority FFVII critics impose and try to make fans feel inferior. Perhaps confidence in some of the critics is so low that they have to tear down others just to feel on par with everyone else (almost like drug-use) while hiding behind a computer screen? Now THAT is pathetic.
I would have to agree (and expand) on what Tokiko says.
The way it comes across, the FFVII fans who shout ‘All you FFVII haters etc.’ are hihgly immature and, it makes me think – ‘Are people allowed to view their opinion’. Final Fantasy VII, is a good game, i have stated its flaws fomr my point of view, but it does not mean that i am a ‘FFVII hater’ which is what was inplied by whoever said it to some critisism of the game.
But – you have made a valid point to.
there have been threads in which FFVII fans have defended themselves with full explanations of why they love FFVII more than any other.
Where are these threads? Not only that, but you say these FFVII fans have given <B>full explanations</B>. Now this I want to see!
<B>Perhaps people are unwilling to share their opinions because they are sick and tired of sharing it and repeating themselves to forgetful opposition?</B>
Excuse me, but we haven’t forgotten anything FFVII fans have used to defend the game. Since, like, you guys rarely do it.
<B>I’m not discouraging any criticism of the game. By all means, go ahead, it’s fine with me.</B>
If it’s fine with you, why are you complaining as to why you come here still?
<B>Perhaps confidence in some of the critics is so low that they have to tear down others just to feel on par with everyone else (almost like drug-use) while hiding behind a computer screen? Now THAT is pathetic.</B>
I would rather be low in confidence, than act like a FFVII nut.
Anyday.
And also, what do you think you are doing? You are hiding behind a computer screen as well, trying to tear us down with these lame arguments. And we are the ones being pathetic?
However, others want to discuss this topic, and maybe others have not yet been to countless threads like this one, so allow them to have their discussion without interrupting them by saying they shouldn’t even be discussing this.
Okay, and one thing I really have to say… I rarely find a FFVII fan who really says why he likes the game. Not beyond claiming it just is the best cuz it has the best story, the best villain, and Cloud is "bad-ass".
And you still haven’t corrected any of the mistakes in your signature. 🙁
I think that sums it up. Its like this. What type of explaniation are you looking for Smokey? Am I saying all FFVII haters are Dumbasses? Like alittle earlier someone called Fantatics. I stay with this post for one reason. What is this explanation that you want? Finiding out that Clouds memories went his at all. Or not entirely. I enjoyed the twist like when Cloud found out that he was a Solider at all like he remembered. This was a great twist to me. I never saw these things coming. I enjoyed leveling up materia. Or playing the Minigames. Not to much. But enough not to get bored with them. I like Battle Square. At times it was just a game of Luck. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed watching the corruption of Shinra. And its down fall. Yes I would have liked to see the turks side alittle more. But hey what do you know Before Crisis came out. Breeding Chocobos was fun to me. And its benfits were great if you did it right.
Most of the story was about Cloud. Actually about 90% was. I enjoyed the whole chip on his shoulder attitude he had. Made me interested wanting to know more. And when I found out it was mostly at the end. After so much in the story had happened. Then it was time to finally finish it.
I dont understand what you all are looking for and I know that I am going to be quoted and it is going to be misused. It wont seem like I am giving enough. I have satisifed you. But I wait to hear what this great explanation will be and see what finally satisfisy all of you. So far I haved heard some great explanations passed by. But we will see, wont we.
And as for that beer. I totally agree. As a matter of fact. I drink one now for me. You. Them. Him. Her. And everyone else on this thread that just needs to be friends. Cant we all just get along.
But…
The thing is, Smokey says that the FFVII fan is either:
Played FFVII and no earlier versions
or
Played FFVII and many other versions and still liked FFVII best.
I think it would be un called for to say that FFVII is GOOD nor BAD, unless you have played a fair few FF games.
People who use phrases such as ‘FFVII Haters’, sounds so immature it is unbeleivable.
I like alot of things about FFVII, the materia was easy to use yet it was annyoing
The summons came out quick enough however they did not have a big enough emphasis on the game
The mini-games were good but some of them were downright frustrating etc etc.
This is what you’ll get in EVERY thread like this. there is nothing no-one can do. Instead of arguing with an opinion, be mature and respect it.
ff8-do i hear foghorn boring
ff9-its ok
ff10- that was soooo boring and the spere grid idea was crap
ff10-2-it didnt have a decent storyline
the reason ff7 was not great in some areas was that it fell behind schedule so they trashed most of there ideas because they wanted to bring it out on time for the fans.
The Job system and all others (including the grid system of X Which I found the closes to liking as much since the materia system. It still keep most of the begininng of the game restricted) restricted to much of the game play and kept me from using alot of the characters.
The mini-games were never as useful and interesting.
The storys never had that same Dark feeling to it.
No villian was every as sadistic and evil as Sepithroth had become.
So saying FFVII haters is immature, then what about the word Fantatic.
Summons were both easy to use and interesting to watch.
But like I have said. These are my opinions you may feel the exact opposite. Ok. That is great. Thank you for your opinion. That is what should be said. THE END. But that is not what is happening. That is why I am waiting to see this opinion that well stop this. Till then I guess I keep posting cause my words keep misusing my phrases and tell me I aint listening. I guess I just want to have my post understood. And listened to not rearranged.
<B>What type of explaniation are you looking for Smokey?</B>
I am looking for you to provide me with a good explanation as to what makes this game so great. Also, I find it funny that you are asking me, because I’m being nice about the subject.
<B>Am I saying all FFVII haters are Dumbasses?</B>
You may be thinking that, but it’s fine with me. Because it’s so easy to tell that the FFVII non-fans appear to have a much higher I.Q. than the FFVII fans.
<B>Breeding Chocobos was fun to me. And its benfits were great if you did it right.</B>
It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don’t even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it’s pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.
<B>Most of the story was about Cloud. Actually about 90% was.</B>
Well, it’s good that it was. That’s the point of the main character; the story is <I>supposed</I> to be about him/her.
<B>I enjoyed the whole chip on his shoulder attitude he had.</B>
There are a lot of main characters with chips on their shoulders. And, some of them are for better causes than Cloud’s. Ex: Cecil.
<B>I dont understand what you all are looking for and I know that I am going to be quoted and it is going to be misused. It wont seem like I am giving enough. I have satisifed you. But I wait to hear what this great explanation will be and see what finally satisfisy all of you. So far I haved heard some great explanations passed by. But we will see, wont we.</B>
We are looking for a FFVII fan to finally prove us wrong about this game. Whether than just give a really bad and small explanation.
And if we quote you, how in the world will it be misused? It’s the same exact words that you said yourself, genius.
And yes, you haven’t given enough. You have spent most of your time bitching at us for bashing the game, instead of actually trying to defend what you believe.
We have given you a great explanation as to what makes this game bad. When you compare what we have said, and what the FFVII fans have said, it’s not even comparable. From this thread, there is far more evidence that the game is bad, rather than it being good.
<I>Originally posted by the purifyer</I>
<B>look ff7might not be the god of rpgs but it is the best out of the ones they have out now</B>
Ok, so you are contradicting what you said here. And, you know that I am going to ask you to tell us why FFVII is the best one out right now. Because if you just say "It’s the best", and don’t give any reasons for it, you are just like the rest of the FFVII fans.
<B>the reason ff7 was not great in some areas was that it fell behind schedule so they trashed most of there ideas because they wanted to bring it out on time for the fans.</B>
You are right about one thing; FFVII was put on the shelves before it was supposed to be. Originally, I believe a side-quest to resurrect Aeris was to be included with the game. But, Square was rushed to release it, so they just left it out of the game entirely. But still, adding this would have made the game worse, IMO. Once you learn that Aeris must sacrifice herself to summon Holy, it would be a really ignorant idea if you could just go on disc 4 and bring her back to life.
<I>Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar</I>
<B>The mini-games were never as useful and interesting.</B>
You didn’t enjoy Blitzball in FFX, or the card game in FFVIII? I’m sorry, but you received more valuable items from Blitzball than FFVII’s mini-games. And, FFVIII’s card game was really addicting.
<B>The storys never had that same Dark feeling to it.</B>
Um, excuse me. But were you blind when you played FFX? FFX has the darkest storyline of all the Final Fantasy games. So, to say that FFVII was the only game with a "Dark feeling" to it is pretty retarded.
<B>No villian was every as sadistic and evil as Sepithroth had become.</B>
Ok yeah, sure. I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That’s pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.
<B>So saying FFVII haters is immature, then what about the word Fantatic.</B>
For one, I never said I hate the game. So, calling me a FFVII hater is wrong. I just don’t like the game that much, so I’m a FFVII non-fan. And, I use the word FFVII fanatic, because most of the fans obsess way too much about everything related to the game.
<B>Summons were both easy to use and interesting to watch.</B>
All summons are easy to use. You just push a few buttons, and you have your summon. And, most of them are interesting to watch as well.
<B>THE END. But that is not what is happening.</B>
You know why it won’t end? Because, ever since this thread opened, there has yet to be a cogent argument that proves FFVII is a good game. Oh wait, Durendal gave a really good explanation, and had good points. But, the ironic thing, is that he doesn’t go around shouting "CLOUD RULZ", "SEPIROF IS THE COLLEST VILLAN EVAR!". I respect him greatly for sticking up for the game. The fact of the matter is, none of you so-called FFVII fanatics that place the game on an untouchable throne have yet to prove anything.
<B>Till then I guess I keep posting cause my words keep misusing my phrases and tell me I aint listening.</B>
Are you 12 or 13 years old?
Actually, now i lok at this most – there are not many that are. 😛
and your entitled to think its a piece of crap
yet it is very immature to go on a bout it for 4 pages!!
yes you have all made your point so isnt that enough
oh and purple monkey dishwasher!! :coolegg:
hey look guys i love ff7 and im entitled to think that arnt i?
and your entitled to think its a piece of crap
yet it is very immature to go on a bout it for 4 pages!!
yes you have all made your point so isnt that enough
oh and purple monkey dishwasher!! :coolegg:
I was unaware that discussing a game was immature. I guess only 7-year-olds have debates.
Regarding Odin’s post:
Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean: The Second Story are both amazing games (I found Legend of Legia to be very average), but just because better games are out there does not make FFVII a bad one.
All things are relative, Durendal. Especially when it comes to entertainment.
If there’s something better than FF7 out there, then that automatically means FF7 isn’t as good. And in comparison to Star Ocean: TSS. FF7 just plain sucks.
There, I said it.
FF7 is one of the worst fucking games I’ve ever played.
Mainly because it had the potential for greatness, but it fell short on so many different levels (as have been amply revealed/discussed thus far) that, if not for Tactics–and the hope of another game like it from SE in FFXII (FF 12, so as not to mistake it for X-2, you FF7 trolls), I’d completely abandon the FF franchise for my gaming purchases..
i said it is immature to go on a bout it for this long give guys people think what they want to think. We can play the game if we want just because you say its crap dosent mean we cant play it and enjoy it. U have made your point that it has many flaws and that you think it is crap so isnt that enough.
We can play the game if we want just because you say its crap dosent mean we cant play it and enjoy it. U have made your point that it has many flaws and that you think it is crap so isnt that enough.
I have yet to see somewhere in this thread that we have stated "You are not allowed to play and enjoy FFVII". And, we aren’t the ones acting immature. It is great when you can get a really good debate over a topic going. That is what we want, and we are acting rational about it. People like you are crying and whining because we are bashing a game that you like. Get over it.
So when is this pointless talk gonna stop?!
When you leave the forums.
FF 2(4). Both were original for their generation of RPG’s. I don’t think FF7 was the best game ever made, but a good game none the less. I don’t know why you would be here unless you actually felt FF7 was a t least a good game.
You are going to have at least one person who feels like a particular game is their favorite, or a particular song is the best they have ever heard. It’s all opinionated, all speculation, none of us here had anything to do with the making of the game so in reality we dont know the true meaning behind it or any other FF. It’s all in tastes.
Final Fantasy 7 was original, as was
FF 2(4). Both were original for their generation of RPG’s. I don’t think FF7 was the best game ever made, but a good game none the less. I don’t know why you would be here unless you actually felt FF7 was a t least a good game.
You are going to have at least one person who feels like a particular game is their favorite, or a particular song is the best they have ever heard. It’s all opinionated, all speculation, none of us here had anything to do with the making of the game so in reality we dont know the true meaning behind it or any other FF. It’s all in tastes.
You didn’t read any of the other posts in this thread, did you?
You didn’t read any of the other posts in this thread, did you?
Yes actually I did. I’ve followed the topic starting in the Advent thread, where many posters have veered here.
Yes actually I did. I’ve followed the topic starting in the Advent thread, where many posters have veered here.
I don’t have a damn clue what the hell you are talking about/trying to say.
You asked did I read any of the other posts in this thread. And I replied with a yes. There, is that better?
I made it alot simpler that time, just for you.
When you leave the forums.
I try to be nice but I must say: You are very sad.
I do like ff7 but i think it should be redone
The story was quite from Aeris’ death until you versed Sephiroth
U say the materia system is crap and should be more individual to a specified character. The materia system should be based on lvl ie summon when u get to a certain lvl in magic you unlock a new summon or magic in the same way.
The chocobo system was much more challenging then the ones in ff8 or ff9 so thats a good point.
The ending was good and left a bit to the imagination.
There was alot of mistakes and most things should be redone and alot that they left out due to lack of time should be put in ie who was the man in the pipe in the sector 7 slums he had a tatoo with thew nunber 2 on him making him a possible sephiroth clone, he is number 2 stating he could be *dramatic music* Zack
well ive have said wwhat i have wanted and i recon it should be redone not hated for eternity get off your lasy buts square and finish what you started!!
I try to be nice but I must say: You are very sad.
Grow up!
Well, it will stop if you don’t visit this thread anymore. Yes, we are likely to keep at it, but at least you won’t have to look at it and get all offended.
Brein: The reason I made that comment is because you have yet to make a comment beyond "WELL OPNION BLAH BLAH BLAH!" Therefore, in order for the pointless posts to stop occurring you have to either start saying something insightful or stop posting in this thread.
the purifyer: I don’t think it should be remade. It isn’t worthy of a remake. If anything they should stop producing it.
SirBlood: Just so you know, I had a basic idea of what you were implying. However, don’t assume that people have read every single thread that you have posted in. I sure as heck wasn’t going to go looking for posts in another thread just because you mentioned it. You should have left it at "yes I did" in your first post. Which posts did you actually read in this thread, by the way?
Oh wow, I read ALL of them, I found this thread after a link was provided in the Advent Children thread. Do you understand now……..
And I wasn’t trying to make any point that was in some other thread, any information went with everything in this thread, So yes I expect you to have read the posts in this thread. I am failing to see what you are so confused about.
The story was quite from Aeris’ death until you versed Sephiroth
Don’t you just mean the story was quiet for the rest of the game after Aeris died?
<B>U say the materia system is crap and should be more individual to a specified character. The materia system should be based on lvl ie summon when u get to a certain lvl in magic you unlock a new summon or magic in the same way.</B>
Uh, what?
<B>The chocobo system was much more challenging then the ones in ff8 or ff9 so thats a good point.</B>
No, it’s really not. Just because the Chocobo system was better than FFVIII and FFIX doesn’t necessarily make it good. Let’s just say that the Chocobo system was terrible in FFVIII and FFIX. Now, let’s say it was better in FFVII. That wouldn’t mean it is terrible, but it could still mean it is bad. You really can’t say it’s a good point as to what makes FFVII good, when it has a Chocobo system better than two other games.
<B>The ending was good and left a bit to the imagination.</B>
No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That’s it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn’t make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn’t leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.
<B>There was alot of mistakes and most things should be redone and alot that they left out due to lack of time should be put in ie who was the man in the pipe in the sector 7 slums he had a tatoo with thew nunber 2 on him making him a possible sephiroth clone, he is number 2 stating he could be *dramatic music* Zack</B>
No, the main thing Square left out because they were lacking time, was the revival of Aeris during possibly Disc 4, or at the end of Disc 3. That’s pretty much it. And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don’t remember about the man in the pipe at all. It’s only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don’t know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn’t.
<B>well ive have said wwhat i have wanted and i recon it should be redone not hated for eternity get off your lasy buts square and finish what you started!! </B>
Um, what in the world are you talking about? Square is already well in the process of trying to finish what they started. Advent Children is supposed to clear the air of any unsolved mysteries from the game, even though I don’t recall any. This movie is nothing more than to keep FFVII alive, not put an end to the game.
No, it’s really not. Just because the Chocobo system was better than FFVIII and FFIX doesn’t necessarily make it good. Let’s just say that the Chocobo system was terrible in FFVIII and FFIX. Now, let’s say it was better in FFVII. That wouldn’t mean it is terrible, but it could still mean it is bad. You really can’t say it’s a good point as to what makes FFVII good, when it has a Chocobo system better than two other games.
You said the game was not challenging i stated as a good point that this part was quite challenging i never said it was fun
No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That’s it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn’t make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn’t leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.
I was talking about the rest of the gang of course you know what happens to Nanaki what about the rest you dont find that out until advent children 6 years after the game was first released.
Um, what in the world are you talking about? Square is already well in the process of trying to finish what they started. Advent Children is supposed to clear the air of any unsolved mysteries from the game, even though I don’t recall any. This movie is nothing more than to keep FFVII alive, not put an end to the game.
Square did not completely finish the game they left out quite abit in cluding as you saaid a possible revival of Aeris on disk3 0r 4
They even left out a letter from Zack to his parents stating hes in soldier and hes gota girlfriend(Aeris)
dont believe me see for your self.
http://www.angelfire.com/super/ff7/unfinished.html
<B>You said the game was not challenging i stated as a good point that this part was quite challenging i never said it was fun</B>
Even so, the Chocobo system in FFVII is not challenging at all. It is just time-consuming if you want to breed a Gold Chocobo. What is so challenging about it?
<B>I was talking about the rest of the gang of course you know what happens to Nanaki what about the rest you dont find that out until advent children 6 years after the game was first released.</B>
Well, Advent Children takes place two years after the events of FFVII. And honestly, I don’t really care what happened to Cloud, Cid, Tifa, and the rest of the gang. I just don’t see enough evidence or enough reasoning as to make a sequel to the game.
<B>Square did not completely finish the game they left out quite abit in cluding as you saaid a possible revival of Aeris on disk3 0r 4</B>
Yes, but still, I don’t think the game would have improved greatly if the Aeris revival part was added to the game.
<B>They even left out a letter from Zack to his parents stating hes in soldier and hes gota girlfriend(Aeris)</B>
Well, we pretty much figure out that it’s Zack they are talking about when Aeris meets his parents. There isn’t any need for a letter to begin with.
excatly the story got very straight forward after her death
Well, we pretty much figure out that it’s Zack they are talking about when Aeris meets his parents. There isn’t any need for a letter to begin with.
I know there is no need for the letter im just saying it is something they left out.
Look, I’m sure you like feeling better then everyone else because they all love a game and you have all of these "reasons" why it’s not as good as the games you like. Grow up, I’m serious, who cares if the story is straitfowards and simple, who cares if the battle system is flawed in your idea of it. Hell, the earlier final fantasies probably are better, but you know what? We don’t care. Everyone here arguing against you loves this game and you think every one of them loved it because it was hyped up? Most of us haven’t even seen the ads for it, I know I never did. You wan’t people to agree with you that your games are better, try telling people to play them. There is absolutely no reason, to come in here and spit on something we all love. You know what age group does that? Toddlers. So you can use all the big words you want, but you’re still acting like little, insecure toddlers. What do you get out of insulting something we like? Do you enjoy the argument? Or is it like I said earlier and you just get off feeling like you’re better then all of us. WE like it, YOU don’t have to. So you know what? You win. You can say that you’re better then us. Now go do something else because if your going to act like a toddler, we don’t need you here.
<B>Look, I’m sure you like feeling better then everyone else because they all love a game and you have all of these "reasons" why it’s not as good as the games you like.</B>
If you were paying attention, we weren’t really comparing FFVII to the games that we like. We were just stating the reasons why we don’t think it’s that good of a game. And, why put " around reasons? Is that your way of telling us that what we are saying is bad about the game is untrue? And that you don’t have any real evidence to back up your claim that FFVII is such a good game? And that you put " around reasons, hoping that we wouldn’t notice your lack of "reasons" for liking the game?
<B>Grow up, I’m serious,</B>
Who’s the one that needs to grow up here? We aren’t the ones taking massive offense when someone doesn’t like the same games we do. We aren’t crying when a person actually does try to prove us wrong. Maybe you need to take a look at who needs to grow up.
<B>who cares if the story is straitfowards and simple,</B>
Well obviously, I do. Because that would just further prove my point that the game is incredibly easy and simple to follow. Although, all these FFVII fans are screaming their heads off at us because they don’t agree with us, and then they don’t explain to us why it isn’t a simple game.
<B>who cares if the battle system is flawed in your idea of it.</B>
Well, that is one of the arguments we used to bash FFVII, so I care.
<B>Everyone here arguing against you loves this game and you think every one of them loved it because it was hyped up?</B>
The only thing I can say to this is read through the entire thread. You will see that we never say that so many people love this game because of the hype it received. So quit making false accusations like that.
<B>Most of us haven’t even seen the ads for it, I know I never did.</B>
Ok, so you say you never did. But, I want to see proof that most of you guys never saw any advertisements for the game.
<B>You wan’t people to agree with you that your games are better, try telling people to play them.</B>
Ok, what the fuck are you talking about here? This thread is about what makes FFVII a bad game, not trying to get people to agree with us that our games are better. And besides, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "your games". The only game I’m talking about is FFVII. You are making yourself look like a fool.
<B>There is absolutely no reason, to come in here and spit on something we all love.</B>
You sound so retarded when you say this. What the heck do you think this forum is about? It’s about the Final Fantasy FFVII game! We are allowed to discuss practially anything we want to about this game. No where does it say in the rules…
"Discuss anything you want about FFVII in this forum; Also, don’t spit on the game, because all the people who love the game will get totally offensive and blow up."
There is a reason to do this. We are sharing what makes FFVII a bad game. You also sound like a hypocrite, just like I have said many times before in my previous posts about other FFVII fans. So basically, we aren’t allowed to criticize the game? If so, then you shouldn’t be allowed to praise the game.
<B>You know what age group does that? Toddlers.</B>
See statement above.
<B>So you can use all the big words you want, but you’re still acting like little, insecure toddlers.</B>
Go look in the mirror, and you’ll see a little, insecure toddler.
<B>What do you get out of insulting something we like?</B>
Oh, I’m so sorry! I forgot that there is absolutely nothing wrong with FFVII, because it is the perfect game!
<B>Do you enjoy the argument?</B>
I prefer debates, but you guys are turning it into arguments. All of you are overreacting to this whole situation. We shared what we believe makes the game bad, and you are totally allowed to share what you think makes the game good.
<B>Or is it like I said earlier and you just get off feeling like you’re better then all of us.</B>
You have things so terribly misunderstood right now. 🙁
<B>WE like it, YOU don’t have to.</B>
Thank you Captain Obvious!
<B>So you know what? You win.</B>
No, that is the problem. We haven’t won anything yet. We aren’t trying to win anything. You FFVII fans think this is some sort of competition, when it is nothing more than a debate thread. Nobody wins or loses, it’s just here to express with why you either like the game, or you don’t like it.
<B>You can say that you’re better then us.</B>
Show me proof where we said that.
<B>Now go do something else because if your going to act like a toddler, we don’t need you here.</B>
Again, you are acting like a fucking hypocrite. We aren’t allowed to criticize the game, but all you guys are allowed to praise it all you want!
And if you say you don’t want us here, then we can say the same thing about you. For some dumb reason, you seem to believe that the only thing you are allowed to do in this forum is praise the game.
Also I like FF7 and it may be my favorite game, but, do you see me often in this forum? I do not want to praise FF7 like a god, I just want to say that its a good game in my opinion. The storyline had many plot hole…but I liked that! Its fun to imagine what will happens afterward…but anyways, its true that this game have too many plot hole to my taste lol…
All the FFVII fans are clustered around one another. They are having a merrily good time, talking about Cloud and Sephiroth, and anything else related to the game.
*Insert random FFVII non-fan*
All the FFVII fans now migrate to this one little person, because they want to trap him and make sure that nothing that criticizes their precious game comes out of his/her mouth.
By the way, just a passing thought before I let you try and pick this post apart for more firepower, I’d just like to mention that it’s somewhat amusing how when no one is standing up to you, you give complicated (and eloquently done some of them) answers, but as soon as someone does stand up to you, you get nervous and start cursing or using childish remarks.
"Go look in the mirror, and you’ll see a little, insecure toddler."
What an hypocritical statment as your using a comeback used by just that age group, toddlers. Oh no! Could I possible have stuck a nerve?
Sorry for suck a pointless edid, but I’m sure you won’t mind 😉 . I gotta go for now though so our interesting little debate will continue tomorow? It’s been fun.
<B>No, I never said it a "perfect game." I never even said it was great.</B>
I don’t remember if you actually said that or not, and I don’t feel like looking back through all these longs posts. But, if you don’t believe it’s a great game, why are you getting so upset over this thread? Besides, there are still a lot more FFVII fans who still claim it the greatest game ever. So, even <I>if</I> you weren’t one of them, then don’t even worry about it.
<B>You are obviously allowed to criticize the game. You’ve been doing it for a while.</B>
First, you say there is absolutely no reason for us to come in here and spit on something that you all love. Now, you are saying that we are allowed to criticize the game? And yes, there is no perfect game in the world, or will there ever be. So, there is going to be criticism about this game. Get over it.
<B>Tell me, why is it exactly that you are insulting this game and the people that like it in doing so.</B>
Because Rabid Monkey created this thread, and I felt like I should contribute to it after reading his first post. I usually don’t participate in these threads concerning how good or bad FFVII is, but I couldn’t help it this time around.
And if I insulted FFVII fans, then I believe that they deserve it. I just don’t blatantly wake up one day and say to myself…
"I want to criticize all the FFVII fans today. I didn’t yesterday, so it’s time for me to do it."
The only insult I can think of that I said personally, is saying that most FFVII fans act like complete idiots. Then, I gave examples as to what these FFVII fans have to act like, before I say they are acting like a complete idiot.
<B>Go ahead, pick my statement apart and tell me why it’s wrong.</B>
That’s what I’m doing.
<B>If you can come up with something constructive to answer my question you’ll be up and winning again.</B>
This is the simple truth: You were never winning. I was never winning. This isn’t a competition.
<B>What I’m saying here is that you could be right, ff7 might not be as good a game as we all think it is, but we like it so why criticize it?</B>
You just said it yourself. You believe that we may be right with what we are saying. And that is why we are criticizing it, because we may be right. Just because you like the game, doesn’t mean we aren’t allowed to voice our opinions.
<B>No one really gets anything out of it at all, it’s pointless.</B>
No, you guys don’t get anything out of it. We, well I know that I, find a lot of amusement from threads like this. Because we know exactly what all the fans are going to say, and it’s just sad that they can’t come up with something original for once in their life.
<B>I’d just like to mention that it’s somewhat amusing how when no one is standing up to you, you give complicated (and eloquently done some of them) answers, but as soon as someone does stand up to you, you get nervous and start cursing or using childish remarks.</B>
Are you really that stupid? People have been standing up to me and arguing with me for most of the thread. If I was nervous, I would just pull the ole’ FFVII fan stunt, and say something like…
"THERE’S NO POINT IN ME TELLING YOU MY OPINION, SO I’M JUST NOT GOING TO VISIT THIS THREAD ANYMORE!"
I mean seriously, If I was getting nervous, I wouldn’t respond to this as soon as I saw it.
As for the cursing, I only do that when I get pissed off, or extremely aggrivated. Also, complete idiocy leads me to cursing.
<B>What an hypocritical statment as your using a comeback used by just that age group, toddlers. Oh no! Could I possible have stuck a nerve?</B>
I used that statement, because that’s all that really needs to be said about it.
EDIT: Sorry for such a pointless edit, but I notice how you avoided nearly all my questions in my previous post.
<B>Hmmm Smokey it seems your feelings for the game have evolved far beyond any dislike of a ‘video’ game.</B>
What the heck are you talking about? I’m not even the person in this thread who hates the game the most. I don’t like the game, it’s as simple as that. Nothing more, and nothing less.
<B>Now it’s just an all out hatred for the fanatic fan-base of the game.</B>
No, I’ve pretty much hated the way FFVII fans act for a very long time now. It has turned into me yelling and hating their acts, because there is nothing else for me to talk about. They won’t back up what they say, so they just complain and whine all the time. And in turn, I say how I feel about them when they do that.
<B>Your feelings seem to go, way beyond any mediocrity or faults you see in this game.</B>
There are people who could say worse things about it than me.
<B>Good luck getting over this obsession you have of proving yourself right to a fan-base that seems indefinitely fixated on their ‘holy grail’.</B>
I’m not obsessed with proving to the FFVII fans that I am right. If I was, I would say a lot more to try and persuade them. But, because this is my opinion and belief, they are allowed to think whatever they want about the game. For some reason, they take it as a personal attack against them, that I am not allowing them to like the game. But, if a FFVII fan is going to complain to me and tell me to stop bashing the game, then I am going to tell them to stop praising and liking the game.
<B>Even though you have proven yourself correct. Though ‘they’ will continue to say, "In your opinion." 🙁 </B>
They continue to say "In your opinion", because they are so full of themselves when they say they love the game, that they honestly have no "real hard" evidence as to why they believe that. There may be evidence like this, but I have yet to see it. Also, they say "In your opinion", because they are too scared to respond back and defend what they believe.
And it is obvious by now that they don’t have anything to back up their claims, or anything in defense, it will just be a never-ending chain. What is there to prove?
<B>I’m not saying you hate the game, I am saying that you have gone beyond posting about your dislike of the game, it’s more of a detesting of ‘these’ fans.</B>
Well, I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I don’t hate the game, but I just don’t like it at all. And yes, I may have posted more than I should have about these fans. But, the fact of the matter, is that I am trying to get them to say something.
<B>And it is obvious by now that they don’t have anything to back up their claims, or anything in defense, it will just be a never-ending chain. What is there to prove?</B>
There is stuff left for the FFVII fans to prove.
Just because you hate something and you keep complaining about it dosent meen its going to go away you go play the games you want to play and we will play the game we wont to play. Havent you said enough?
Well, I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I don’t hate the game, but I just don’t like it at all. And yes, I may have posted more than I should have about these fans. But, the fact of the matter, is that I am trying to get them to say something.
There is stuff left for the FFVII fans to prove.
Not at all, sorry if I cam off wrong with my first post. 😀
Of course there is still stuff left to prove, but do they have it? Lol, the blind may never see.
<B>Smokey you have definately gone too far if you dont like the game good for you dont play it we have heard what you have said now go back and play in the sand pit cursing at this game.</B>
Ha ha, you guys are awesome! You say I have only gone too far because you don’t like people saying bad things about the game. Not because I am actually going over the line. I haven’t gone too far, because it’s not like I’m threatening to kill anyone who plays the game. And if you like the game, good for you. We have heard what you have said (Nothing), so go back and play it so you won’t have to be afraid when you come to this thread.
<B>Just because you hate something and you keep complaining about it dosent meen its going to go away</B>
You have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t hate the game, instead I really don’t like it at all. There is a difference between the two. And what am I trying to make go away?
<B>you go play the games you want to play and we will play the game we wont to play. Havent you said enough?</B>
Again, the same point I have said countless times before. This is nothing more than the FFVII fans overreacting because someone doesn’t love the game like they do. I never said you couldn’t play the game, so don’t even start with this whole "DON’T TELL US WHAT GAMES WE CAN AND CAN’T PLAY. WE ARE ALLOWED TO PLAY ANY GAME WE WANT", crap. Go play it if you want, I don’t care.
<I>Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet</I>
<B>What I’m trying to state put simply, is that we don’t care if you don’t like 7.</B>
Oh really? Then why make the huge fuss that I am writing this stuff about the game? If you didn’t care, then you wouldn’t post in here.
<B>You can give us all of the reasons in the world, you can even prove it, but the fact remains, we like it.</B>
That’s irony. You say we can prove that this game is not that good, but you’ll still like it. I don’t care if you like the game or not, just quit bitching about all of this then.
<B>I doubt that many people could fool themselves into having fun with a terrible game.</B>
And where is this proof that all these people had fun with the game? I had fun with the game the first time I played it. But then, I started looking at all the intangibles that made the game what it is today. And quite simply, I wasn’t impressed at all. If more people actually sat down and looked at the game, I’m sure that it is possible some of them would change their mind, like I have.
<B>Your saying that it’s a bad game isn’t going to cause millions of fans to wake up one day and suddenly think "You know? Final Fantasy 7 really is a bad game." It’s just not going to happen.</B>
You are so obtuse. I’ve never said that my goal is to get everyone to say FFVII is a bad game. These are my opinions, and you FFVII fans take it as a personal attack.
<B>What could you possibly have to gain,</B>
A while back in this thread, someone actually was defending the game. That is what I was looking for, when I posted in this thread. I wanted to have a debate with someone. Then, all of a sudden, some FFVII fan prances into this thread, and is like "OMG, I MUST TAKE PERSONAL OFFENSE TO THIS!", and all this argument crap has ensued. What do I have to gain? Well, I don’t <I>have</I> to gain anything. I want to gain the satisfaction of having a friendly debate, back and forth, with a FFVII fan that is actually brave and smart enough to stand up for the game.
<B>and how could that many people have that much fun with a bad game?</B>
Excuse me, but let me see you prove to me that all these people <I>still</I> have fun with the game. I will admit that a lot of people had fun with the game when they <I>first</I> played it. But, I’m sure that there have been people who loved the game at one time, and now, they don’t like it at all. That many people had fun with a bad game, because they were so excited when it first came out, to get their grubby little hands on it. They were so mesmorized by seeing all the advertising put into this game, that they were oblivious to the bad parts of the game. They just played right through, without acually stopping and looking at all the intangibles.
<B>Actually answer them this time too, don’t just ignore them and pick apart the rest of my statement and ignore them. So tell me, why?</B>
I’ve been answering all the questions that you have asked me thus far. As for not answering, you need to take a look at yourself. You have ignored most of what I said/asked you. So maybe you should actually attempt to do the same thing I am, before making such a baseless statement like you just did.
And picking apart your statement? It’s called quoting. It makes it a lot easier for readers to understand what I am trying to say. Would you rather me just leave all your posts in one, huge paragraph clump? And then answer all your points in there? Or, would you rather me "pick them apart", so that it is easier to understand?
So, you and the other ‘FFVII nuts’ (as they call ’em), think its OK to make threads like;
FFVII – Why it ROCKS and
Why this game is so great
But at the slightest ounce of critisism you go all defensive of the game.
But, thats all i have to say (atm)
I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts,
rofl pwned. sorry mate 😉
<I>Originally posted by Jenova Filled Puppet</I>
<B>I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts, but no. I don’t make those kind of threads, and I wasn’t paticularly defensive either, I was trying to have a decent debate.</B>
I find it amusing that you would use that statement, when <I>you</I> have a name taken directly from FFVII.
(The video)
I am in the process of playing finalfantasy4 and so far its quite good but i still prefer 7. i also own 6 but that was just lame.
The amusement in replying to this thread kind of got lost a few days ago. However, I applaud everyone for still giving me a good laugh when reading this thread.
What I am about to say may seem a bit strange to those who have read the first 3 pages of this thread. I completely agree with everything RM just said.
i also own 6 but that was just lame.
You realize you have no credibility after saying that, don’t you?
<B>The amusement in replying to this thread kind of got lost a few days ago. However, I applaud everyone for still giving me a good laugh when reading this thread.</B>
Yes, I can see what you mean. But, I still found it rather humorous, because they were all trying to outsmart me.
Honestly people, this thread was only started for entertainment purposes.
<I>Originally posted by the purifyer</I>
<B>I am in the process of playing finalfantasy4 and so far its quite good but i still prefer 7. i also own 6 but that was just lame.</B>
FFIV is probably still my favorite one of the bunch, but just by a little bit over FFX. Maybe you will like IV more than VII once you actually finish the game.
FFVI, lame? 🙁
Werent the Turks the coolest? 😀
<B>Now now people. FF7 had its good points..and its bad points. The graphics werent too great, some bits dragged out a loooong while, and some of the enemies got lame. But there was a great storyline, characters, plots and sub-quests, not to mentions boss’s and monsters. It fully deserves the movie sequel more than other of the Final Fantasies to date. *well, thats my opinion anyway*
Werent the Turks the coolest? :D</B>
So…tempting…must…not…respond…
I find it amusing that someone with a name taken directly from Final Fantasy has the nerve to call OTHER people ff7 nuts, but no. I don’t make those kind of threads, and I wasn’t paticularly defensive either, I was trying to have a decent debate.
I find it amusing that you are a lame and immature idiot.
Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I???ll admit, when I first played FFVII I was overwhelmed with the dramatic difference graphics wise. I would be foolish to argue against FFVII being the visually superior game to its predecessors.
FFVII’s graphics haven’t aged as well as the sprites of old, in my opinion, so it’s easy to forget how stunning they were at the time.
I remember showing the opening movie to anyone who would watch it when I first got the game because I was so impressed.
Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
I think that what really makes this stand out is that it followed Final Fantasy VI. There are so many little things about the pasts of your characters implied or hidden away in FFVI’s storyline that are easy to miss if you don’t think about it. It really makes for a good contrast.
Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called ???innovative???. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your ???limit??? you are no longer able to use the ???fight??? command. This makes it a pain to save the limit.
One limit break innovation I really enjoyed was doing stuff to obtain each one for your characters. I actually went through all the trouble to level Aeris just that I could try out her final limit break.
Apart from that though, I agree that the limit breaks are very poorly executed. Almost every time I used them, they were wasted.
What I find strange is that IX has pretty much the same problem, limit break wise, and everyone complains about it all the time- no one complains about it in VII.
Originally posted by Rabid Monkey
As for the materia system, it???s not a bad system, but I don???t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game.
I feel the same way about the Materia system. I like the ability to customize your character, but I don’t like it when nothing really stands out about your characters.
VI did a better job with this in that each character had their own unique and super useful ability. Personally, I think X perfected it, what with the Sphere Grid and how certain characters styles of attacks did more damage to certain types of creatures.
Originally posted by Cloud_Dmar
The reason the FFVII fans dont talk is because what is the point?
That’s a pretty silly attitude to have about it.
If you can come up with a valid argument against what someone is saying….say, you could think of a really good example of why the storyline of VII isn’t as linear as other people here seem to think it is. You could post it, and make someone reevaluate their opinion.
I mean, really, that’s the whole point to debating, isn’t it?
Originally posted by AdamJC
I like the Final Fantasy story, I also like the characters, I don’t need any more of a reason than that to say why I like the game do I?
You don’t need it, no.
But the whole point of debating is to try and make someone else see your side of the argument, and you do need more then that to do that.
Originally posted by Shinra Turk
…..excuse me but are you stoned? Could you have made a better game?
If I had people to program it for me? Frankly, yes.
And also, I hate it when people say "could you do better?" when people insult something.
My abilities have nothing to do with how good or bad the finished product is.
And as a consumer, I have every right to say that something is bad.
Originally posted by Durendal
You’ll noticed I said "allmost all", which leaves room for the few that are as fun, or even more fun (GASP!?) than FFVII, but there aren’t many. There were many times where I was addicted to chocobo racing, snowboarding, and the motorcycle game in FFVII.
I agree, all those games were great.
Personally, I thought FFVII really shone in the mini-games department. It had some pretty crappy ones, but it also had more good mini-games then any other Final Fantasy.
Still, I’ve never enjoyed a mini-game as much as I enjoyed the card game in FFVIII.
Originally posted by Odin
Mainly because it had the potential for greatness, but it fell short on so many different levels
That’s exactly why I don’t like VII.
When it started off, I was into it. I enjoyed the first disc- I loved the Turks, I wanted to find out more about Sephiroth, I was pretty suprised when Aeris died.
Then the whole game basically goes to crap. The turks no longer play a big role, Sephiroth turns out to be a completely boring character, some really ghastly character background type stuff is introduced.
I remember not even wanting to play anymore for a while because I became so frusterated with the game. I was really hoping for an awesome ending that would shed some light on things I’d never noticed before, or an awesome speech from Sephiroth that actually turned him into an interesting villan.
But all I got was an "open for an interpretation" ending that didn’t fit the game that I’d been playing.
Originally posted by SirBlood
Hmmm Smokey it seems your feelings for the game have evolved far beyond any dislike of a ‘video’ game.
It’s easy for something like that to happen when you frequent Final Fantasy forums.
There are so many FFVII fans here that are so mind-numblingly stupid that you start to hate the game a little.
It’s funny at first- someone talking about how Sephiroth, and how he’s the god of all villans when they can’t even spell his name properly. But when you see it so often, to the extent that we see it here, it really starts to get to you.
I know it’s easy to say "then don’t go to the FFVII forums", but that kind of stuff doesn’t just go on here. It’s everywhere, even in General Discussion.
I
I know it’s easy to say "then don’t go to the FFVII forums", but that kind of stuff doesn’t just go on here. It’s everywhere, even in General Discussion.
I
Then don’t go to ffshrine.org , go somewhere else, like www.thisThreadIsFackingUseless.com
I find it amusing that you are a lame and immature idiot.
Wow, what a mature and adult statement
Kudos to smokey for the weeble and bob link by the way, saw it a few months ago, what a great site, I was laughing for hours.
Then don’t go to ffshrine.org , go somewhere else, like www.thisThreadIsFackingUseless.com
Yeah, I’ve been here like 4 or 5 years. Not about to leave just because a few annoying posters have showed up since AC was announced..
This thread isn’t at all useless. It’s actually generating more discussion about FF7 then most of the other threads in this forum.
I wish people wouldn’t flame people though. =/
I wish people wouldn’t flame people though. =/
BUT LEIK PPL SIAD FF7 IZ BARD!!! THAY SUXXXX!!!
(wow, it was really hard to misspell some of those words)
BUT LEIK PPL SIAD FF7 IZ BARD!!! THAY SUXXXX!!!
(wow, it was really hard to misspell some of those words)
I didn’t notice any spelling mistakes there…
are you blind or being sarcastic?
are you blind or being sarcastic?
He was being sarcastic.
Yeah, I’ve been here like 4 or 5 years. Not about to leave just because a few annoying posters have showed up since AC was announced..
This thread isn’t at all useless. It’s actually generating more discussion about FF7 then most of the other threads in this forum.
I wish people wouldn’t flame people though. =/
How could you have been here for 4-5 years when you were registered January 2002? = )
How could you have been here for 4-5 years when you were registered January 2002? = )
The forums were erased in 2001 and reopened in 2002, smartass. =)
Yes, I know my date says 2001, but look at the month.
ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn’t a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I’ve played has been awesome).
And to say that we aren’t allowed to express our opinions is basically saying that we should just agree with everything else that people believe. Even though they have way different view-points than I do, I still have to agree with them.
Man, you are such an idiot for saying that.
ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn’t a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I’ve played has been awesome).
Hi. Welcome to the forums. 😀 You’re an idiot. 😀
ok, i skipped every post in this. Whoever made this thread should be burned at the stake for treason. To say that FF7 isn’t a good game is basically saying that no FF was good, (whereas every single one that I’ve played has been awesome). <font size=10>HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHHA!</font>
But, I won’t tell "this cool" or "this is good"..
FF7 is a great enhancement for FF series.
The passage from 2d to 3d. It was the first time, and Square did it very well.
From ff6 to ff7 we see many additions, much more than from 7 to 8, to 9, even to 10.
Yes, better visuals… but in FF10 we don’t have a world map, there’s less freedom, for example.
FF7 is a masterpiece because at that time did’nt exist anything like that.
I like very much Xenogears or Chrono Cross, or 16-bit RPG, but FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players.
Even now, Square is following the cinematic-spectacular way…
Maybe too much.
FF7 is well balanced in cinematic and gaming (the many sub-games are nice:) ) and the charcaters are not stereotyped.
<B>I can’t read ALL the posts…</B>
You’re right. You can’t read all the posts, because you will probably just break down into tears and kill yourself from what you read.
<B>FF7 is a great enhancement for FF series.
The passage from 2d to 3d. It was the first time, and Square did it very well.</B>
Um, no, not really. It was an advancement when it first came out on Playstation. It’s not a great enhancement to the Final Fantasy series in terms of graphics, as you obviously stated above. If that is the case, then FFX should by-far be the best thing to ever hit the series. So, to say that FFVII is a great enhancement to the series is a joke. It was nice to see 3-D for a change, at the time it did come out.
<B>From ff6 to ff7 we see many additions, much more than from 7 to 8, to 9, even to 10.</B>
Now this I want to see. What are these "many additions" that you speak of? If you’re meaning something like disc space, well that is an irrelevant argument.
<B>FF7 is a masterpiece because at that time did’nt exist anything like that.</B>
No, that makes no sense. You can’t say that FFVII <I>is</I> a masterpiece because there was no game like it when it came out. It would make a little more sense if you said FFVII <I>was</I> a masterpiece. Again, what was so special about this game, that made it to where there was no other game in the world that was like it?
<B>FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players.</B>
WTF? J-RPG, Occident, what in the world are you talking about kid?
Also, what spectacularity was there that fascinated the players?
<B>FF7 is well balanced in cinematic and gaming (the many sub-games are nice:) ) and the charcaters are not stereotyped.</B>
Well-balanced in gaming? You’re going to have to give more than the mini-games are nice if you want to make a good debate.
And the characters are not stereotyped? Are you even trying?
EDIT: Come on Cris, you totally messed up this page with that post of yours!
🙂
I can’t read ALL the posts…
Why not? Too lazy?
From ff6 to ff7 we see many additions, much more than from 7 to 8, to 9, even to 10.
Duh. That’s because the games could be larger at that point since they came on cds rather than cartridges. It would be inexcusable if there wasn’t a huge leap in content.
Yes, better visuals… but in FF10 we don’t have a world map, there’s less freedom, for example.
So there isn’t a world map… Big deal. The game is still well-designed. They don’t have to be carbon copies of all the previous games, you know.
FF7 is a masterpiece because at that time did’nt exist anything like that.
A masterpiece must also be good enough to stand the test of time. FF7 does not. Anyway, the story had way too many holes to be considered a masterpiece.
I like very much Xenogears or Chrono Cross, or 16-bit RPG, but FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players.
As was stated before, it sold so well because Square advertised the hell out of it.
Even now, Square is following the cinematic-spectacular way…
Maybe too much.
Of course they are. Practically every game these days follows the same trend. And FF7 was not the first game to include cinematics, so the point is moot.
FF7 is well balanced in cinematic and gaming (the many sub-games are nice:) ) and the charcaters are not stereotyped.
And what characters are not stereotypes? Cloud was a generic brooding stoic. Barrett was a classic loudmouthed softie. Tifa and Vincent had no personality at all. Aeris was a traditional goody-goody.
None of those characters had any depth to their personalities. And I’m not even going into the supporting characters because it just gets more sad.
You two are totally against FF7…
And I have nothing against the other chapters.
Even if Squall can be the brother of Zell or Seifer (hight, weight.., face…) while Barret is A LITTLE different from Cloud…
Not mention for Red XII… (in 10 Kimhari reprises the subject)
The other chapters are good, but the way was opened by FF7.
I have noticed that some things can’t be false…
Come on… don’t hate a game…
I’d never do it
If you’re going to defend the game, at least make a serious effort of it. If you leave it at that, I’ll consider it a forfeiture.
<B>You two are totally against FF7…</B>
I can’t help but say this: If you had read ALL the posts, then you would have realized that by now.
<B>The other chapters are good, but the way was opened by FF7.</B>
What in the world is "the way"? Seriously, all you have basically said is "FFVII paved the way for FF games to come, and it is the best in the series". You haven’t said anything else other than that.
<B>I have noticed that some things can’t be false…</B>
What?
<B>Came on… don’t hate a game…</B>
Why not?
<B>I’d never do it</B>
That’s a lie. You obviously just haven’t come across a game yet that you despise.
Are you fighting? I haven’t considered it, sorry!
The only idea makes me laugh.
It can be funny, but as I said is quite useless, don’t you agree?
I can only say that FF7 yes, is the first Japanese RPG that included cinematic sequences and prerendered background.
Not the first game, but for its genre is a milestone.
You disagree?
Too bad, it’s the truth.
Originally posted by Smokey
That’s a lie. You obviously just haven’t come across a game yet that you despise. [/B]
Despising or criticizing is NOT hating…
But this is my opinion, I know it will be wrong as everything I said, right? 😉
<B>Useless to make war if I have my ideas and you only want to negate what I say…</B>
I was never under the impression that everytime two people disagree about a subject, and share their opinions, that it is automatically turned into a war.
<B>Are you fighting? I haven’t considered it, sorry!</B>
Uh…no.
<B>The only idea makes me laugh.</B>
The "only" idea? It’s incredibly hard to believe that you are almost 24 years old, and can post this pathetically.
<B>It can be funny, but as I said is quite useless, don’t you agree?</B>
This whole thread has been rather humorous, and I would like it to stay that way. Debates are never useless, IMO.
<B>I can only say that FF7 yes, is the first Japanese RPG that included cinematic sequences and prerendered background.
Not the first game, but for its genre is a milestone.</B>
Wait a minute. You said that FFVII <I>is</I> the first Japanese RPG to include those. But then, a few seconds later, you say it’s <I>not</I> the first game.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
<B>You disagree?</B>
I can’t agree or disagree with anything you have said yet, because it’s too hard to interpret what you are trying to say.
<B>Too bad, it’s the truth.</B>
Uh-oh, you said "It’s the truth".
<B>Despising or criticizing is NOT hating…</B>
Oh really? I beg to differ.
Even if Squall can be the brother of Zell or Seifer (hight, weight.., face…) while Barret is A LITTLE different from Cloud… Not mention for Red XII… (in 10 Kimhari reprises the subject)
I’d like to know what you mean by that. I get the feeling you judge the characters only based on their appearance. Even if that’s the case, it doesn’t make FF7 stand out. The characters in FF7 were diverse, true, more diverse than in FF8, true. But have you seen the cast of FF6? FF7 did NOT mean a breakthrough in this aspect. If anything, then FF6 was it. It had a moogle, a yeti-like freak, a half-esper and other more or less unique characters.
FF7 is the J-RPG that broke in the Occident on a very large scale, because it was the spectacularity that fascinated the players. I don#t know what it was that made Square Enix not release any FF game before FF7 in Europe.
FF7 was the first one of the series to be released in Europe, the first one to be released worldwide, the first one that got the CHANCE to impress all those people on such a large scale.
Had FF6 been the first to get such treatment, IT would have been the one conquering the western world for RPG games. (If FF7 ever did such a thing. Personally, for me, Secret of Mana did that a long time ago, and many agree with me.)
This is irrelevant for the question whether FF7 is a good game.
Oh yeah, and "to despise" seems to have more or less the same meaning as "to hate". You might want to try "to dislike", which means you simply don’t like something very much, as opposed to hating it.
This whole thread has been rather humorous, and I would like it to stay that way. Debates are never useless, IMO.
The "only" idea? It’s incredibly hard to believe that you are almost 24 years old, and can post this pathetically.
What a humorous sentence…! Maybe I am not english-american, this is my way to express. Did you get wrong?
Wait a minute. You said that FFVII <I>is</I> the first Japanese RPG to include those. But then, a few seconds later, you say it’s <I>not</I> the first game.
Problems to understand? It is the first Japanese RPG with etc. etc., not the first game of every genre… Got it now?
<B>What a humorous sentence…! Maybe I am not english-american, this is my way to express. Did you get wrong?</B>
Why are we talking about how you cannot form a readable sentence, instead of FFVII?
<B>Problems to understand? It is the first Japanese RPG with etc. etc., not the first game of every genre… Got it now?</B>
Not at all. It’s the first Japanese RPG with what exactly?
Or you are running out of memory?
😉
I hate it when I post a reply and no one reacts to it. T_T
You’re right…
I think me too that the older FF have smart characters… Because they were less realistic than today.
Yes, it doesn’t care if FF7 was the RPG that conquered the West, I think about Chrono Trigger much more than Secret of Mana (it’s an action rpg, not turn based).
But from that point, FF became a synonymous of RPG…
No, I mean… J.rpg.
PS: not only the characters are various, the gameplay is various.. in my opinion… of course
Cut him a little slack, he is either mildy retarded or english is not one of his main languages..
I think he means it’s the first RPG to use cinematics and prerendered backgrounds. Not the first ‘game’ in general but the first RPG.
Cut him a little slack, he is either mildy retarded or english is not one of his main languages..
Thanks for "mildy retarted",
If you check under my avatar youll’notice where I am from…
yes, the second one you said, english is not my main language,
there are pretty sharp people in this forum…
If you check under my avatar youll’notice where I am from…
I am personally appaled that you would bash us Italians! 🙁
Also, someone debate with me.
???
I simply said that I’m not writing well in English ’cause I’m Italian..
There’s something wrong about that?
What do u mean with "us italians"? Are u italian?
Se sei italiano anche tu, fammi vedere come scrivi nella mia lingua, allora!
About FF7, I want to make a question for you:
1. You hate hate FF7
2. Or you hate much more the people who loves FF7…?
I’m just curiuos…
Also, someone debate with me.
Okay, I’ll play devil’s advocate and impersonate an FFVII fan. I’ll even try to sound authentic.
FF7 is the shit it’s the best evar.
cloud was cool and sephiroth is the best villan ever.
if you don’t liek the game uv never played it or ur stupid.
u cant make sumthing better so stfu.
I simply said that I’m not writing well in English ’cause I’m Italian..
There’s something wrong about that?
What do u mean with "us italians"? Are u italian?
Yes, I’m Italian.
Also, I was joking around.
<B>1. You hate hate FF7
2. Or you hate much more the people who loves FF7…?</B>
Equal.
Okay, I’ll play devil’s advocate and impersonate an FFVII fan. I’ll even try to sound authentic.
FF7 is the shit it’s the best evar.
cloud was cool and sephiroth is the best villan ever.
if you don’t liek the game uv never played it or ur stupid.
u cant make sumthing better so stfu.
I’m not that type of fan.
I did’t make the game, I just like it, as the other chapters.
I like more FF7 for the atmosphere and the new thing that was at its time.
But I think is wrong to be the devil’s advocate AGAINST FFVII too.
FF7 is a piece of crap?
Is it the black sheep of FF series?
I simply don’t agree.
Smokey, do you hate the people who love FF7 too?
Is it necessary to be so aggressive for a game??:whatever:
<B>Smokey, do you hate the people who love FF7 too?
Is it necessary to be so aggressive for a game??:whatever:</B>
You are misunderstanding what I said. You asked me which I hate more, the game or the fans. I said equal.
I hate how the vast majority of FFVII fans act. So in turn, you could say that I hate these types of people.
I’m not that type of fan.
I didn’t use any names. Decide for yourself if it applies to you.
But I think is wrong to be the devil’s advocade AGAINST FFVII too.
And what’s wrong with a devil’s advocate stance?
FF7 is a piece of crap?
Is it the black sheep of FF series?
I simply don’t agree.
I don’t think it’s total crap. I do think it’s very mediocre, however, and certainly the weakest of the FFs I’ve played.
I hate how the vast majority of FFVII fans act. So in turn, you could say that I hate these types of people.
What?
You are saying that you’re not hating me, then!
What a nice person, I’ll start to cry for the joy…:angel:
Ahahah!
However, I read some of the posts, some people don’t like FF7, but to say it’s a bad game is not fair…
It’s a reaction for all those the die-hard fans that get mad if a person doesn’t like FF7.
Sorry, I have no time to read the whole topic,
I’d want to know:
Smokey, Prak, you played until the end FF7 or you got bored before?
<B>What?
You are saying that you’ar not hating me, then!
What a nice person, I’ll start to cry for the joy…:angel:
Ahahah!</B>
No, you aren’t acting like a total jackass yet…
<B>However, I read some of the posts, some people don’t like FF7, but to say it’s a bad game is not fair…</B>
I know it would take a long time, but you really should read all the posts. You would get a better understanding as to why I don’t like the game, and it may answer some other questions you want to know.
Yes, some people don’t like FFVII, and some people do. But, you’re saying it’s unfair for me to call it a bad game? I’m sorry, I didn’t know that this game is so perfect that it hypnotizes every single person who plays or hears about it into not being able to say "THIS GAME SUCKS". I didn’t know that I’m not allowed to express my opinion about the game.
<B>Smokey, you played until the end FF7 or you got bored before?</B>
I finished the game, and I thought it was really good when I first played it.
But that was years ago. So, my opinion on the game has changed drastically, as you could find out if you read more of the posts I have made.
However, I read some of the posts, some people don’t like FF7, but to say it’s a bad game is not fair…
Sure it’s fair, as long as you can back up your position.
It’s a reaction for all those the die-hard fans that get mad if a person doesn’t like FF7.
And that’s the problem.
Sorry, I have no time to read the whole topic,
I’d want to know:
Smokey, Prak, you played until the end FF7 or you got bored before?
Yes, I finished it. And did everything there was to do in the game.
I like FF7, but its flawed…vastly. And most FF7 fans can’t see that, neither can they take constructive criticism. And its very annoying.
And no-one is saying that your like them. Back your opinions up and people here will respect you for it. And don’t keep putting your language skills down, believe me we all have the intellegence to look past that.
P.S – I did warn you about this!
you’re saying it’s unfair for me to call it a bad game? I’m sorry, I didn’t know that this game is so perfect that it hypnotizes every single person who plays or hears about it into not being able to say "THIS GAME SUCKS". I didn’t know that I’m not allowed to express my opinion about the game.
I finished the game, and I thought it was really good when I first played it.
But that was years ago. So, my opinion on the game has changed drastically, as you could find out if you read more of the posts I have made.
Your opinion has changed, but for me a game that I liked in the past is still a great game.
SUper Mario Bros for NES was a great game, for example!!:D
And, no, I said is not fair because even people that hates FF7 like you enjoyed the game at least for a moment.
For me is interesting to know your opinion, that’s all.
Case in point, I love the movie Kull the Conquerer. I know it’s a wretched excuse for a movie, but I find it entertaining.
And don’t keep putting your language skills down, believe me we all have the intellegence to look past that.
P.S – I did warn you about this!
Yes, you warned me!!
😀
But I don’t get mad for things like these…
So we can debate without problems.
Just because you enjoy something doesn’t make it good.
Case in point, I love the movie Kull the Conquerer. I know it’s a wretched excuse for a movie, but I find it entertaining.
Yeah I love Torque. Due to the bikes, the action scenes and the fit biker-chicks. So i’ll say I like it but its totally un-realistic pap.
Ergo, FF7 was entertaining for me, but it could have been so much better.
Ergo, FF7 was entertaining for me, but it could have been so much better.
For that time?
It was almost an experiment…
When I look at FF7, I can still feel the passion eand the enthusiasm of its creators, like:
"we are going to make something unseen before!"
There are a lot of nice ideas. New ideas.
Like the first Resident Evil, like many other games.
And what was new about it that had never been seen before? I can’t think of anything.
Yeah, you can keep to post like that,
but I got that you liked FF7, but you are against it, on top of that its fans.
So seriouooooss….:D
😉
Anyway, are you going to answer my question?
<B>Storyline</B>
I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I’m older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.
Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It’s just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.
Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That’s it? That’s the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.
This is the storyline of FFVII:
You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.
__________________________________________________
Notice how there aren’t any bumps or nicks in the line?
Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.
Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:
Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.
Done.
Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.
Done.
Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.
Done.
This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn’t really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.
Like I said before, it’s like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
<B>An Unfinished Game</B>
The guy in the pipe at the beginning of the game could very well possibly be Zack. But, Square didn’t add anything else to the game, that could have led you to finding out exactly who it was in there.
The guy who’s living in it is a normal human who was
infected with Jenova cells, that’s why he has a number 2 tattoo. After you have finished with dialouge in the Midgar Slums, you are told that an Elixer can be found in the pipe. But, when you go back there, you will not find an Elixer. Obviously, this is a mistake by Square, or quite possibly, an item they just took out of the game. But how could the item have gotten there in the first place?
The Nibelheim clones. Every guy in a black cloak gave us some item after we talked to him, right? And all the clones had a number tattoed on their body somewhere, just like the man in the pipe. But, if that’s the case, why wouldn’t this man give you an item as well?
If you want some more rock-solid evidence that FFVII isn’t and never will be a finished game, go <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/super/ff7/unfinished.html">here</A>
<B>Aeris’ Death</B>
Aeris’ death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn’t make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party’s resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.
Another thing: I don’t see why people get so riled up about this scene. Aeris was going to die sooner or later, so why not just get it over with? In fact, it would have been worse if she died later in the game. Her relationship would have improved with Cloud probably, and it would have been more uncessessary drama to see her die after this.
She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.
<B>The Importance of Aeris’ Death</B>
When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn’t know if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn’t guarantee the party’s safety at all. Yes, her death was important for the storyline, but she was going to die regardless of whether or not Sephiroth did her in first.
When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them.
<B>Cloud in the Lifestream</B>
Can you say incredibly boring? I mean, this sequence of events did reveal some important facts about Cloud and other necessities, but did Square have to do it in this fashion? I don’t see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s not like he intentionally jumped into the Lifestream for no apparent reason or anything.
Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.
<B>The Materia System</B>
I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it’s a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you. That’s pretty stupid if you ask me. Also, since the Materia depletes your HP and Strength, you have to waste even more slots to bring back up these two categories, with HP Plus, and Str. Plus.
I admit, that the Materia System was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that’s it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out how to work the Materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.
You say the Materia System takes some thinking and thought? Pfft. The strategy guide describes to you all of the basic combinations that you will ever need, even though it’s doesn’t take a genius to figure out how to work it. It isn’t complicated at all. You just put a Materia here and there, and you will come up with a combination that is good enough.
The Materia System is terrible. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduces your maximum HP by 20%. So, you are capable of losing up to 2,000 of your Max HP, just by being able to cast a summon? That is pretty lame.
Also, the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in battles leveling up your Materia to a certain strongness is something that made the game very boring for me. I don’t want to spend hours earning AP, just so that my Choco/Mog summon can gain another star, and be that much closer to giving birth to a new Choco/Mog.
<B>The Advertising of FFVII</B>
FFVII is by-far the most advertised game in history. On the television ads, you would see the FMV’s from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.
Also, the strategy guide was released with the game. It was the first Final Fantasy game to do this, so that is another reason people loved this game immediately. Owners of local game shops everywhere were telling people to buy the strategy guide along with it, just to help with the publicity FFVII wanted to receive. With the stategy guide, gamers didn’t even have to think about what to do next, or where to go. Everything was given to them on a silver platter, so to speak.
<B>What Makes FFVII So Popular</B>
FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, because it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it. I mean seriously, this is one of the easiest games I have ever played in my life, and I’ve been playing for well over 16 years now.
And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.
I also admit that there are some things that you need to stray off-course to acquire. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn’t required to finish the game. It wasn’t mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent’s best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game. It would be nice if there was something hard that was mandatory in the game.
<B>The Strategy Guide</B>
The strategy guide. Yes, like I said before, this was the first Final Fantasy game to come with a strategy guide. The book alone is a reason that led to the huge success of FFVII. Take away the strategy guide with the release of the game, and the game would be less popular today. I know that strategy guides are available for the previous Final Fantasy games, but they are really hard to find now. And, they were hard to find then, because I never saw one for FFIV or FFVI. I love the challenge of playing through a game without any help. But, obviously thousands of FFVII fans didn’t see it my way.
The game is incredibly easy. It tells you straight out what is playing out, in accordance with where you need to head next. You don’t have to do a little bit of hunting to find out what location you are supposed to be at. I didn’t actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.
<B>Knights Of The Round</B>
All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don’t even need it to beat the game. I don’t understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR. This summon helps make the game popular, while the fact of the matter is, KOTR is irrelevant to finishing the game.
You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there’s no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.
It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don’t even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it’s pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.
<B>Manipulation</B>
FFVII was a smash hit because the game manipulated it’s fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.
<B>Play Final Fantasy 1-6 First</B>
Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn’t say that everything about the game is revolutionary. FFVI has a better storyline than FFVII, and also more personality in their characters. FFIV had the ongoing theme of the love triangle between Cecil, Kain, and Rosa.
What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.
<B>The Graphics</B>
The graphics were some of the best anyone had ever seen when the game came out. Yes, it was nice to see this, but it subtracted from the storyline. I believe, basically, that the storylines of all the Final Fantasy games after VI have gone downhill. Square is putting more time and thought into graphical representation than storytelling, and that’s a shame.
You really can’t use the argument of FFVII’s graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. By reading this, you would have to say that FFVIII was revolutionary in graphics, not FFVII. Of course the graphics were better than those of the SNES. But, what do you expect from a more powerful system in the Playstation?
<B>The Limit Break</B>
Quite frankly, I thought it was retarded. You aren’t allowed to physically attack anymore until you have used your Limit Break? That is so stupid. What happens if you are right before a big boss, and you earn your Limit Break. You don’t want to use it on weak enemies, and you certainly don’t want to spend more time earning the Limit Break again if you do decide to use it.
<B>Shinra And The Turks</B>
This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.
<B>The Ending</B>
I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline. It just shows Red XIII overlooking a grassy Midgar? Wow, that’s awesome!
No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That’s it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn’t make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn’t leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.
<B>The Battle System</B>
Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn’t see this at all in FFVII.
<B>Sephiroth</B>
Greatest villian of all time?
No. Sephiroth is maybe a descent villian, but I don’t consider him to be better than someone like Kefka, by a longshot.
I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That’s pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.
For instance, Sephiroth kills Aeris from behind, flys away when danger is near (Cloud), and always manipulates Cloud to do his dirty work. If you ask me, that sounds kind of cowardish.
Kefka wouldn’t kill Aeris from behind. He would do it so that she could see him deliver the finishing blow. Then, knowing that her death is not good enough, he would stand over the body and laugh *grr*, and then slice her head off. And he wouldn’t run away from the scene of the crime either.
Sephiroth is a boring and flat character. He never scared me with anything he did. His atmosphere never drove me to hate him, like villians are supposed to do. I don’t see what is so special about Sephiroth? His Masamune?
If you think Sephiroth is the best Final Fantasy villian ever, you need to play, preferably, FFVI again. Sephiroth is really one-dimensional, in the sense that he basically had only one goal.
Also, he did some irrelevant actions during the game.
Why was he goofing and messing around at the Gold Saucer?
He did kill Aeris, but he was a coward when he did it.
Maybe the most important thing, is that he was basically sleeping throughout most of the game. Then, near the end, he wakes up, and grows a wing and halo?
Sephiroth is not that cool.
<B>Rufus</B>
I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus’s father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn’t add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can’t be stopped.
<B>Zack</B>
And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don’t remember about the man in the pipe at all. It’s only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don’t know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn’t.
<B>Mini-Games</B>
I found the Mini-Games to be entertaining, for about a minute. The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to. Helping a Moogle have sex with another Moogle has got to be the most bizarre mini-game to date. Arm Wresting, Basketball, Kick-Boxing? Yes, there are a variety of mini-games in FFVII, but there is no big reward for them. With Blitzball in FFX, you received a lot better rewards for winning matches and scoring goals.
Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don’t feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren’t mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?
What do you get for getting a Moogle laid?
30 points.
Anything else you guys would like for me to explain?
What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.
Who was the butt-pirate???
Hmm? After Kalm you must find the way by yourself, without indications.
Besides, yoy’re right about FF7 when u say that is an unfinished game: many particulars are mysteries, and…
the player must figure them out, at last.
Also, there are "secret" characters, like Yuffie and Vincent.
You can beat the game without them.
I think that FF10 is the most linear chapter. without world mp and a road to follow. (it seems to be to run on a train)
The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That’s it? That’s the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.
There are secrets and enemies like the Weapons to beat after the first time.
I didn’like the ending of FF8;
And for the 7, I wanted something more.
The FF9 has the best ending, along with 10.
Like I said before, it’s like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
FF10 is more like it.
Besides, wasn’t FF7 an "unfinished game"?
There are many things to figure out before to understand the plot.
I absolutely hated the Materia System
Oh, that’s your problem.
You criticize this system, I can criticize the absence of MP in FF8, , or something else. Oh, and for the difficulty
The easiest is the 9…
You don’t want to lose your HP with Materias?
In every RPG system a guy who uses magic is not very strong in HP, you should know it.
Besides, I fell like you are saying "I don’like it, therefore is bad".
Too childish, huh?
On the television ads, you would see the FMV’s from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.
And FF8? And FF9?
You can’t know that in my country the tv spot were only about 8 9 and 10, because FF7 wasn’t translated in italian.
Here, in Italy, FF8 is the most known chapter.
This point of the ads is equal for all the chapters.
The Strategy Guide
VERY important subject.
I think that the majority of players never used it.
You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there’s no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.
That useless summon is useful to complete the game beating all the Weapons. You can’t have the Master summon Materia without it.
Yes, it does take long. But you prefer to spend your time writing abot games instead to play them…
I appreciate that in the following chapters summons are shorter, in time.
You really can’t use the argument of FFVII’s graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. .
Come on, get real!
In FF7 Square was learning "how to do 3d graphics", and it learned it.
With FF8 Square has sharpened in a beautiful way its abilities.
With FF7 square moved its first steps in 3d graphics.
With FF8 Sqare was ready to run.
But the first steps are revolutionary, in my opinion.
Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don’t feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren’t mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?
In the fighting arena you can earn a limit, weapons etc…
But you prefer to play at the game of the Mog… the mini-games are not in the golden saucer: they are variety in the gameplay, you don’t appreciate them? Well, you can always do the battles, nobody will force ya to like them…
Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn’t say that everything about the game is revolutionary.
You hit a very good point. This time you are objective.
This is the truth, but about the storyline everyone has his-her own ideas. And for the "revolution", FF7 has only the point of the passage from 2d to 3d, and the consideration for the casual players.
You considered too much FF7, at last.
You know almost everything about it, and you think that if a fan read your argumentations, he starts to concern seriously.
But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.
Too much considerations about the plot, the characters…
If one likes Sephiroth, it’s his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game…?
I read your ideas:
my impression of your word is: "FF7 is not a good game" like the title of the topic.
But the points you touched don’t make me feel like it’s a BAD game.
Be shorter, and more objective.
But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.
Too much considerations about the plot, the characters…
If one likes Sephiroth, it’s his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game…?
I read your ideas:
my impression of your word is: "FF7 is not a good game" like the title of the topic.
But the points you touched don’t make me feel like it’s a BAD game.
Be shorter, and more objective.
I’d just like to say that I don’t really think that taste has much to do with how good or bad something is.
The only thing it really affects is how much you enjoy something.
For example, I like zombie movies. The fact that I like them doesn’t mean that zombie are well written, beautifully shot, or that the director did a good job. It means that I enjoy watching goofy looking people try to eat brains.
Prak went into this a little bit earlier.
The characters in FFVII are not well written. There’s not interesting dialouge, they don’t develop much throughout the story, and they all have pretty stock personalities.
People obviously like these characters, but that doesn’t mean that they are good characters.
So yeah. Taste has nothing to do with quality.
Hmm? After Kalm you must find the way by yourself, without indications.
Besides, yoy’re right about FF7 when u say that is an unfinished game: many particulars are mysteries, and…
the player must figure them out, at last.
You say that like it’s a good thing. Leaving loose ends is bad writing. The story was left unfinished, but fans stupidly cling to this delusion that it was meant to be open to interpretation. A good story completes itself.
Also, there are "secret" characters, like Yuffie and Vincent.
You can beat the game without them.
I think that FF10 is the most linear chapter. without world mp and a road to follow. (it seems to be to run on a train)
The secret characters in FFVII are not necessary to finish the game, so Smokey’s point holds. There is absolutely no need to stray from the beaten path. Also, calling on FFX’s weaknesses is no defense. We’re discussing FFVII on its own merits (or lack of them), not how it compares to FFX.
There are secrets and enemies like the Weapons to beat after the first time.
I didn’like the ending of FF8;
And for the 7, I wanted something more.
The FF9 has the best ending, along with 10.
It isn’t necessary to beat the weapons to finish the game either. Smokey’s point holds.
FF10 is more like it.
Besides, wasn’t FF7 an "unfinished game"?
There are many things to figure out before to understand the plot.
Again, a good story completes itself. Universal rule of writing there.
Oh, that’s your problem.
You criticize this system, I can criticize the absence of MP in FF8, , or something else. Oh, and for the difficulty
The easiest is the 9…
You don’t want to lose your HP with Materias?
In every RPG system a guy who uses magic is not very strong in HP, you should know it.
Besides, I fell like you are saying "I don’like it, therefore is bad".
Too childish, huh?
The other games are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about FFVII on its own merits. I don’t share Smokey’s exact feelings on the materia system, although I still dislike it. I personally feel like the system was passable, but the game was lacking certain key options for managing materia, mainly sorting and removal options.
And FF8? And FF9?
You can’t know that in my country the tv spot were only about 8 9 and 10, because FF7 wasn’t translated in italian.
Here, in Italy, FF8 is the most known chapter.
This point of the ads is equal for all the chapters.
And that’s supposed to mean what? If FFVII does not have the rabid following in Italy that it does here because it wasn’t marketed, that reinforces Smokey’s arguments.
VERY important subject.
I think that the majority of players never used it.
You think? That’s not good enough for a debate.
That useless summon is useful to complete the game beating all the Weapons. You can’t have the Master summon Materia without it.
Yes, it does take long. But you prefer to spend your time writing abot games instead to play them…
I appreciate that in the following chapters summons are shorter, in time.
Again, you tried to skip around Smokey’s point. The KotR summon was not necessary to beat the game. And if you ask me, a person would have to be pretty sad to want to sit around and do boring repetitive tasks to level up materia just so they could have something far more powerful than they could ever possibly need. Why not finish the game and be done with it?
Come on, get real!
In FF7 Square was learning "how to do 3d graphics", and it learned it.
With FF8 Square has sharpened in a beautiful way its abilities.
With FF7 square moved its first steps in 3d graphics.
With FF8 Sqare was ready to run.
But the first steps are revolutionary, in my opinion.
That might almost hold water if there were not other early playstation games that had better 3d graphics than FFVII.
In the fighting arena you can earn a limit, weapons etc…
But you prefer to play at the game of the Mog… the mini-games are not in the golden saucer: they are variety in the gameplay, you don’t appreciate them? Well, you can always do the battles, nobody will force ya to like them…
The point was that they should be something people will enjoy and get decent rewards from. There was no point at all to playing boring games that look like refugees from an Atari 2600 console, especially when all they give is a few measly points that you can get more of in the battle arena.
But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.
Too much considerations about the plot, the characters…
If one likes Sephiroth, it’s his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game…?
FFVII fans always, without fail, fall back on that stupid old line about how it’s "only your opinion." Smokey made very good points about the overall quality of the game, not just things that affect personal enjoyment. Your pathetic attempt at defense has been tried before, but it never works.
If you like FFVII, that’s fine. No one’s going to say you’re wrong for liking it. The problem comes in when people call it a masterpiece when it clearly is not. It has glaring flaws that die-hard fans always try to sweep under the rug or pretend are not problems at all. The only people you fool are yourselves, and for that, we pity you. That is, when we’re not laughing at you.
Now that, I do not agree with. Plenty of novels and even a few movies tactically choose not to give explicit details about a situation, an event, or character.
From the classic "The Lady or the Tiger" you never find out whether the guy gets the girl or gets axed. In a more popular book, "The Giver" is a bit more ambiguous in the ending.
Movies to use this, and when used correctly it works. For example, Lost in Translation towards the end has Murray tell Johannson something that is inaudible, and they never tell you what it is. Its a prive moment, you aren’t supposed to know. Or in House of Sand and Fog, the explicit details of why the former Colonel had to move to America is never revealed but constantly plagued.
It is not a universal principal that everything must be said, or it has to be explicity said. In the words of Adaptation, one should not follow formulas simply because someone says you must.
<B>Hmm? After Kalm you must find the way by yourself, without indications.
Besides, yoy’re right about FF7 when u say that is an unfinished game: many particulars are mysteries, and…
the player must figure them out, at last.</B>
Um no, not really. If you even looked at that site to read about what makes it an unfinished game, you should be able to realize that you can’t figure them out. You will never be able to, since that is the point of an unfinished game; You can’t do it.
<B>Also, there are "secret" characters, like Yuffie and Vincent.
You can beat the game without them.</B>
Yes, so why even bring them up? FFVII has maybe the worse secret characters of all the Final Fantasy games. I mean, the only thing that Yuffie actually does on her own is steal your Material. Vincent floats out of a coffin, and that’s about it. Other than that, they are normal characters.
<B>There are secrets and enemies like the Weapons to beat after the first time.</B>
The Weapons don’t become available after you finish the game for the first time, so I have no idea where you are pulling this statement from. Everything; The secrets, the Weapons, the Materia. It is all available to you through your first play-through.
<B>Besides, wasn’t FF7 an "unfinished game"?</B>
You just said so yourself earlier that it’s an unfinished game. Is your memory that bad?
<B>There are many things to figure out before to understand the plot.</B>
What things are there to figure out "before" to understand the plot? No really, tell me.
<B>Oh, that’s your problem.
You criticize this system, I can criticize the absence of MP in FF8, , or something else.</B>
Well yeah, that’s my problem. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I don’t like how the Materia System works in FFVII, so I criticize it. Usually when you don’t like something, you criticize something about it that you don’t like. Would you rather me have just said…
"I hate the Materia System".
I’m not saying you’re not allowed to criticize the absence of MP in FFVIII, go right ahead.
<B>You don’t want to lose your HP with Materias?</B>
Well yeah, but that’s not the exact reason why I don’t like the Materia System. You are basically becoming a weaker physical player, and increasing your strength as a magical player. I’m sorry, but I don’t want all seven of my characters to all be weak attackers and strong magic users.
<B>In every RPG system a guy who uses magic is not very strong in HP, you should know it.</B>
Oh really, every RPG? I wasn’t under the impression that every character in every RPG that has ever cast magic is automatically going to be weak in the HP department.
<B>Besides, I fell like you are saying "I don’like it, therefore is bad".
Too childish, huh?</B>
I hope you are smarter than this. I don’t like FFVII for all the reasons stated above in all my previous posts. All those points are what I think makes the game bad. It’s pretty obvious that I don’t like the game because it is a bad one. And childish? I also was never under the impression that all the games I don’t like have to be good. Yes, there are some great games out there that I don’t like, such as the Grand Theft Auto series.
<B>You can’t know that in my country the tv spot were only about 8 9 and 10, because FF7 wasn’t translated in italian.
Here, in Italy, FF8 is the most known chapter.
This point of the ads is equal for all the chapters.</B>
Uh, whether FFVIII was marketed more in Italy than FFVII is not the point. All this marketing of FFVII has ultimately led to the creation of Advent Children, and Before Crisis.
<B>Very important subject.
I think that the majority of players never used it.</B>
Ha ha, that’s a great one. You have no idea of knowing whether or not players used the strategy guide. Quite frankly, a lot of people did buy one, so I could find it idiotic to just waste your money on the book and not even glance inside it once or twice.
<B>That useless summon is useful to complete the game beating all the Weapons. You can’t have the Master summon Materia without it.</B>
No, KOTR is not useful to finish the game, because it is already really easy to defeat the final boss without it. Yes, I understand taht the summon is useful in defeating the Weapons. But, last time I checked, killing these monsters doesn’t mean you have finished the game.
<B>Yes, it does take long. But you prefer to spend your time writing abot games instead to play them…</B>
Of course I do. I would rather write about games, than play FFVII again and try to get a Gold Chocobo. Nothing is more boring than doing that.
<B>In FF7 Square was learning "how to do 3d graphics", and it learned it.
With FF8 Square has sharpened in a beautiful way its abilities.
With FF7 square moved its first steps in 3d graphics.
With FF8 Sqare was ready to run.
But the first steps are revolutionary, in my opinion.</B>
No, in Playstation, Square was learning how to do 3-D graphics, not the FFVII game itself. I’m sure that if they had decided to work on making the graphics on par with FFVIII, then the graphics of FFVII would look that much more great.
And, it wasn’t FFVII that Square ultimately decided to make the jump to 3-D graphics. This could have only been done with a more powerful system than the SNES, so they had to wait for the Playstation to come along.
I don’t think the first steps are revolutionary. I believe it’s the biggest step that you can see the bigger difference in something. So, I believe FFVIII graphics were revolutionary.
<B>In the fighting arena you can earn a limit, weapons etc…</B>
It would be nice if some of these things were actually a little necessary to defeat the final boss. Like I said, I didn’t waste any of my time playing through the mini-games, because the rewards are just not good enough for me.
<B>But you prefer to play at the game of the Mog… the mini-games are not in the golden saucer: they are variety in the gameplay, you don’t appreciate them?</B>
I don’t prefer to play any of the mini-games, I just decided to give the Moogle one a try. And, maybe you should play through the game again, because the mini-games are located inside the Golden Saucer. I already admitted that there are a variety of mini-games to choose from, and I appreciate that. But, it’s the only thing that I appreciate about them.
<B>You considered too much FF7, at last.
You know almost everything about it, and you think that if a fan read your argumentations, he starts to concern seriously.</B>
I would know a lot more if I played the game again. But I don’t want to. It’s been several years since I finished the game, and I prefer to keep the game inside the case for a long time.
And, when I read more and more about argumentations that are against FFVII, I will start to believe them, If I think they are true. So yes, there may be some people out there who read what I am saying about the game, are agreeing with what I’m saying, and changing their opinions about the game.
<B>But the major part of your subject is a matter of personal opinion.</B>
Uh, that’s the whole point. All of this is what I believe is bad about the game, so it’s my opinion. I also supplied proof with why I believe this, instead of just saying some baseless comment with no real hard evidence to back it up.
<B>If one likes Sephiroth, it’s his taste.
If you are think is a stupid character, then it is a bad game…?</B>
And, if one dislikes Sephiroth, it’s his taste as well. Your statement really doesn’t hold anything to it.
No, I don’t think a stupid character or two automatically makes the game bad. Did you even read all of my previous post, because I’m pretty sure I gave a lot more reasons that this game sucks than just Sephiroth is a bad character.
<B>My impression of your word is: "FF7 is not a good game" like the title of the topic.
But the points you touched don’t make me feel like it’s a BAD game.
Be shorter, and more objective.</B>
Well of course you don’t think my points are valid enough, because you disagree with most of them. That’s all there really is to say about it.
A lot of your examples of why it sucks could be applied to almost any other RPG on the market, it is just that most people don’t want to waste their time trying to explain why they dislike a game when their retaliation is that they’re stupid. You bring up lots of good points, but I only read the first few pages, so maybe I will read the rest and post about why I like it. So until then…
Thanks for "mildy retarted",
If you check under my avatar youll’notice where I am from…
yes, the second one you said, english is not my main language,
there are pretty sharp people in this forum…
That was not there when you first posted, since your location was unknown I was left with a few possibilities, never did I say you were retarded, I simply stated the possibility, also your welcome for some-what sticking up for you in a thread where you are way over your head.
What are you saying?
The weapons can be beaten before the final battle, even in first play.
Everyone else confirm this statement?
Anyway…
Smokey, sometimes it seems you want to understand in your way.
And sometimes I had to be VERY precise…
Oh really, every RPG? I wasn’t under the impression that every character in every RPG that has ever cast magic is automatically going to be weak in the HP department.
Ok, NOT every. Most of them. I was wrong, because I am the one only that must be VERY precise… and you?
mean, the only thing that Yuffie actually does on her own is steal your Material. Vincent floats out of a coffin, and that’s about it. Other than that, they are normal characters
Yuffie lives in Wutai, there’s a mini quest in the tower.
But Vincent has a side story, that is a secret that can be discovered in a cavern that you can reach with the submarine.
Do u know what was the bound between Vincent and Lucrecia?
Do u know that Vincent was in the Turks?
The only thing that he does is floating out of a coffin?
This time you are supposed to be more precise.
For Prak:
That might almost hold water if there were not other early playstation games that had better 3d graphics than FFVII.
Come on, we are talking about RPGs, or what else?
The first PSX RPG in 3d graphics. You will negate even this?
Explain me one thing:
I don’t know why I am the only one who has to backup his opinions…
What about u?
I hope that Bear read this, maybe… he’ll warn u!:D
So let’s do a game:
I’m not afraid to say what I dislike of FF7:
-The random encounters
-Yuffie and Cait Sith (especially)
-If you reach the limit, you cannot attack!
-In the field, charachters are too blocky…
– The sound effects have POOR quality
-I want a longer ending….
-Cloud is alone on the screen.. in FF8 and in Chrono Cross (and in Xenogears too) is really cool to see the other party members!
– It would be better to have some particular abilities for every charcter, not only the limit skill
-The story needs more particulars
– Cloud is like "the boss". The story is His story. (Like Tidus said in FF10) The other characters have side stories, but I’d want they to be more involved in the main story
You are able to say what do u LIKE in FF7?(not liked, still like)
If you are able to do this, I tell u what I really like of FF7.
Not now, ’cause the list is long… 😉
I only think that the FF that followed FF7 tend to improve things that in FF7 were new (3d, cinematics, limit skills…)
Originally posted by SirBlood
That was not there when you first posted, since your location was unknown I was left with a few possibilities
I put the location BEFORE writing any message.
Anyway, I don’t mind.
<B>What are you saying?
The weapons can be beaten before the final battle, even in first play.
Everyone else confirm this statement?</B>
That is exactly what I said. Everything is available to you during your first run-through of the game.
<B>Smokey, sometimes it seems you want to understand in your way.</B>
Sometimes, I wish I could understand what you are trying to say in your posts.
<B>Ok, NOT every. Most of them. I was wrong, because I am the one only that must be VERY precise… and you?</B>
Well, give me a lot of RPG’s then, instead of all of them.
And me what?
<B>Yuffie lives in Wutai, there’s a mini quest in the tower.</B>
Oh boy, a rather useless side-quest to earn another summon Materia. What is your point?
<B>But Vincent has a side story, that is a secret that can be discovered in a cavern that you can reach with the submarine.
Do u know what was the bound between Vincent and Lucrecia?
Do u know that Vincent was in the Turks?
The only thing that he does is floatong out of a coffin?</B>
Yes, I know all about this. And yes, all Vincent does is float out of a coffin. The only thing getting him to join your party does, is to see these sequences you stated above. That’s all he does; Float, and allow for those sequences.
For Prak:
Come on, we are talking about RPGs, or what else?
The first PSX RPG in 3d graphics. You will negate even this?
Specifying RPG is a sneaky ways of adding value to something that doesn’t really have any. An RPG is developed in the same way as any other game. FFVII was the first RPG like that just because it was one of the first games released for the playstation, which was the first system that was even capable of supporting that kind of graphics.
Explain me one thing:
I don’t know why I am the only one who has to backup his opinions…
What about u?
Poor baby. Is us bad people victimizing you? GET REAL! We’re backing up our opinions also, and doing a better job of it than you. After all, we’re staying on topic about FFVII and not trying to divert attention away from it every few sentences.
Poor baby. Is us bad people victimizing you? GET REAL! We’re backing up our opinions also, and doing a better job of it than you. After all, we’re staying on topic about FFVII and not trying to divert attention away from it every few sentences.
Oh, I touched a bad point if you act like this.
It’ s all the best u can say? Negate everything I said?
Is it to backup your opinions?
"We are doing a better job than you"?
You are really grown.
But nobody has told a line about what I dislike of FF7.
Besides, I never said "I’m better than you" or similar.
Thank you for saying if there is anything do u like about FF7.
I’m not trying to divert the attention from the topic, surely no more than you.
Oh, I touched a bad point if you act like this.
It’ s all the best u can say? Negate everything I said?
Is it to backup your opinions?
"We are doing a better job than you"?
You are really grown.
But nobody has told a line about what I dislike of FF7.
Besides, I never said "I’m better than you" or similar.
Thank you for saying if there is anything do u like about FF7.
I’m not trying to divert the attention from the topic, surely no more than you.
I can disect that line by line if you want, but anyone can see you’re talking out your ass. You were entertaining for a while, but you’ve fallen into the same desperation that FFVII fans invariably succumb to when forced to debate against a knowledgable opponent.
I can disect that line by line if you want, but anyone can see you’re talking out your ass. You were entertaining for a while, but you’ve fallen into the same desperation that FFVII fans invariably succumb to when forced to debate against a knowledgable opponent.
I can disect that line by line if you want, but anyone can see you’re talking out your ass. You were entertaining for a while, but you’ve fallen into the same desperation that FFVII haters invariably succumb to when forced to debate against a knowledgable opponent.
😀 As u can see, I haven’t lost my sense of humor..
What about yours?
So damn seriuos…. huh, and superior.
Anyway, I’ll quote myself, you haven’t considered again this:
So let’s do a game:
I’m not afraid to say what I dislike of FF7:
-The random encounters
-Yuffie and Cait Sith (especially)
-If you reach the limit, you cannot attack!
-In the field, charachters are too blocky…
– The sound effects have POOR quality
-I want a longer ending….
-Cloud is alone on the screen.. in FF8 and in Chrono Cross (and in Xenogears too) is really cool to see the other party members!
– It would be better to have some particular abilities for every charcter, not only the limit skill
-The story needs more particulars
– Cloud is like "the boss". The story is His story. (Like Tidus said in FF10) The other characters have side stories, but I’d want they to be more involved in the main story
You are able to say what do u LIKE in FF7?(not liked, still like)
If you are able to do this, I tell u what I really like of FF7.
Not now, ’cause the list is long…
I only think that the FF that followed FF7 tend to improve things that in FF7 were new (3d, cinematics, limit skills…)
This is so unworthy for the topic, Mr. Prak?
Will u descend from the heaven to reply to this?
It is basically unworthy since it’s off topic, but I’ll indulge you. You want to know what I liked about it? All right.
I liked a lot of the designs, particularly the bosses.
I also liked the music.
Aside from that, there was nothing unique to the game that I thought was notable.
Now I know it.:(
🙂
The pre-rendered backgrounds were amazing, they were even animated.
In my opinion, the were diverse between them, and full of atmosphere. Thanhs to the music, I liked too very much.
The characters could move into CG scenes sometimes, and it was something unseen.
You disagree?
<B>Oh, I was OT for all the time!!
Now I know it.:(
:)</B>
What?
The?
Fuck?
<B>The pre-rendered backgrounds were amazing, they were even animated.
In my opinion, the were diverse between them, and full of atmosphere. Thanhs to the music, I liked too very much.
The characters could move into CG scenes sometimes, and it was something unseen. </B>
Yeah, the graphics <B>were</B> amazing, just like you said. And of course CG scenes were unseen before, because it was the Playstation that allowed all of that to happen. You are giving too much credit to FFVII for coming up with these CG scenes. The game didn’t give them to you, Playstation did.
The pre-rendered backgrounds were amazing, they were even animated.
That is the wonders of new technology, not FFVII in particular.
The characters could move into CG scenes sometimes, and it was something unseen. [/B][/QUOTE]
Again, this was thanks to new technology. No system before the playstation could do that. FFVII was just an early game to do that. The technology was revolutionary, not the first game to make use of it.
The graphics designers did the work, not the Playstation.
Besides, there were still RPGs in 2d like Wild Arms, or Alundra, that is an action RPG.
Yes, the graphic was amazing and unseen only for its time.
However, I can still feel a beautiful atmosphere in the locations of FF7. I think that I like it for that.
There’s one thing more:
You said that the secrets and many other things of FF7 are useless, or not necessary to complete the game.
But every game in FF series has thing like those.
And don’t say that the rewards are better, in FF9 there are still a chocobo hunt, for example. Or the frog hunt…
So, what’ s the big difference about that in FF7?
PS: Prak, it’s the second time that you descend from the heaven…!
Watch out… Maybe you’ll became a mere mortal!!
😉
PPS: Gandalf, I tkink like you about that:
an unfinished ending that give us the possibility of interpretation is like: "Ohh… is this the end?? What a pity… But, wait a moment.. I tkink it occurred this, or that…"
I like finished endigs, but I don’t dislike an ending like that.
I don’t want to leave out anyone from this debate, I am happy to see other users here.
And so what if every FF game has some things that you don’t have to do. You’re twisting the issue. The real issue is that you never had to go out of the way in order to finish FFVII. FFIX made you actually search for certain key locations, rather than having precise directions thrown at you every time.
By the way, I never actually descend from heaven. I bring it down with me. Can’t you hear the angels singing when you read my posts?
Yes, so why even bring them up? FFVII has maybe the worse secret characters of all the Final Fantasy games. I mean, the only thing that Yuffie actually does on her own is steal your Material. Vincent floats out of a coffin, and that’s about it. Other than that, they are normal characters [/B]
NORMAL!!
yuffie isnt that cool…
but vincent is actually SEPHIROTHs father
and lucrecia is sephys REAL mom
oh and vincent is a bad…*sees that mods are here*
vincent was experimented on by hojo or some1
accounting for the red eyes and metal hand
vincent was the coolest secret FF char evur
all the yeti FF6 did was grunt and smash and does any1 remember his poo throw limit break?
that one guy (cant remember his name) was tied with vincent due to his powers
Eh…I am lost, its probably just me. Could you give a few examples of this maybe?
SirBlood, everyone knows that FFVII only used a fraction of the playstation’s processing power. Its graphics didn’t push the system’s limits by any means, so it really wasn’t a major achievement. As has been said before, it looked more impressive because the playstation allowed for more impressive looking games.
The games CG’s used more than a fraction of the systems graphical engine. As you can see mainly the rest of the Final Fantasy series harnassed this CG graphical power in almost similar CG’s. Besides just a different look, you never saw any better graphics on the PSX. I did not mean the gameplay graphics…
The games CG’s used more than a fraction of the systems graphical engine. As you can see mainly the rest of the Final Fantasy series harnassed this CG graphical power in almost similar CG’s. Besides just a different look, you never saw any better graphics on the PSX. I did not mean the gameplay graphics…
That’s ridiculous. Of course we saw better graphics. Are you saying that a lower polygon count and lower framerate don’t make them inferior?
And even at the time, it had been done better. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain was released on the same day that FFVII was released in Japan. In those technical aspects, Blood Omen had better CG scenes.
Come on guys, even if you love FF7 (and I do), you have to admit the graphics are not that spectacular. The people walk around like they were fat blocks half the time.
After looking back on it a little more, I’m having a hard time remembering exactly what I had to search for. I’m going to load an old save file when I get back home and look it over to jog my memory. Maybe I’ll get my act together before then. If so, I’ll go ahead and clarify.
And so what if every FF game has some things that you don’t have to do. You’re twisting the issue. The real issue is that you never had to go out of the way in order to finish FFVII. FFIX made you actually search for certain key locations, rather than having precise directions thrown at you every time.
I’m the one that is twisting the issue?
Besides every following chapter from FF7 has precise directions about your next destination/move.
Every FF has things that are not necessary to complete the game, or mini-games with a reward not so special…
But it’s not a bad point.
Come on guys, even if you love FF7 (and I do), you have to admit the graphics are not that spectacular. The people walk around like they were fat blocks half the time.
Yeah, Gandalf. In a previous post I posted what I dislike of FF7..
I said, in the field characters are too blocky… and other things.
About graphics, PSX allowed to make 3d graphics.
And to insert movie scenes.
And animated prerendered backgrounds.
But Square with FF7 decided that this is the way to tell the story, and this is a matter of fact.
Squaresoft could make FF7 with 2d characters and a fully 3d world, at first. (like the beautiful Xenogears)
But its choice was pre-rendered animated backgrounds.
It was the way to craft a Japanese RPG on a modern system that was revolutionary.
FF8, 9 followed this way, improving visuals and sounds.
And don’t keep replying me as I was a die-hard fan that thinks that FF7 is a perfect game, and the other FF suck. (I refer to Smokey and Prak…)
I just think that FF7 opened the way for the following chapters.
Square decided how to use new technologies to tell the story.
And I think is the one I like more (of FFsaga) for that and for personal taste, as many other players.
<B>Every FF has things that are not necessary to complete the game, or mini-games with a reward not so special…
But it’s not a bad point.</B>
That is one of the points that I am trying to make. Yes, all the other Final Fantasy games have their share of unneccessary side-quests and the like for finishing the game. But, we aren’t talking about those games. If a thread was started about what makes FFVIII a bad game, I would use that same reasoning as one of my examples probably. But, I’m not, because I’m focusing on FFVII right now.
<B>About graphics, PSX allowed to make 3d graphics.
And to insert movie scenes.
And animated prerendered backgrounds.</B>
So why are you saying that the graphics are so revolutionary? I mean, they were at the time, but you are giving the game credit instead of the system.
<B>But Square with FF7 decided that this is the way to tell the story, and this is a matter of fact.</B>
No, it’s not a fact. If you were Square, and were able to make a game with the Playstation, wouldn’t you want the graphics to be really good?
<B>And don’t keep replying me as I was a die-hard fan that thinks that FF7 is a perfect game, and the other FF suck. (I refer to Smokey and Prak…)</B>
I’ve never called you a die-hard fan of FFVII, nor have I said I think you have FFVII as a perfect game.
<B>I just think that FF7 opened the way for the following chapters.
Square decided how to use new technologies to tell the story.</B>
Sony opened the way for the following chapters. FFVII did not make the graphics itself, so quit acting like it did.
Oh, I thought that FF series was made by Square….
I didn’t know that the graphics of FF7 were generated automatically by PSX hardware:
Thanks, Sony, you did a miracle console!!
3d games with any effort or work!!
😀 😀
Maybe I have to repeat my point:
Square decided how to use new technologies to tell the story.
Square opened the way for the following chapters. Playstation did not make the graphics automatically, so quit acting like it did.
What I thought you meant was Final Fantasy VII was so easy you never needed to g around looking for something else, where Final Fantasy IX was a bit harder and twisted your arm into doing the sidequests a bit more, would that be right intrepretation?
That’s ridiculous. Of course we saw better graphics. Are you saying that a lower polygon count and lower framerate don’t make them inferior?
And even at the time, it had been done better. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain was released on the same day that FFVII was released in Japan. In those technical aspects, Blood Omen had better CG scenes.
Actually, what I meant was that FFIX didn’t give you precise directions to the next location you need to head for to progress the story. There were at least a couple of times where all you knew was what continent your destination was on. It made exploration more important. Whereas you always got exact directions in FFVII, so exploration was optional.
I don’t see a big difference in this between the two chapters.
I think that FFIX is still a linear game, and it was a pity that only the first continent was full of locations, and instead the others have almost one location for continent….
In FFVII you are not forced to enter in Cosmo Canyon to go on in Nibelheim, for example. And the exploration is important even in FF7: you only know that there is a key underwater.
Then you have to explorate the sea with the submarine.
Jus to make an example…
I don’t think that FF7 IS NOT linear, but I think it is no more than its following chapters.
But I return to the main point:
In my opinion, this thread had to be entitled:
"Why FF7 ISN’T the best RPG ever" or
"Why FF7 ISN’T the greatest game ever" or even
"Why FF7 ISN’T a perfect game"
I know the title wanted to provoke,
but I still think that FF7 is a good game,
the creators of FF series crafted it with the heart, with the enthusiasm of the possibilities allowed by the new technology.
In my opinion, the following chapters are crafted more with the head, than with the heart.
That makes it a good and enjoyable game, but it still my point of view.
but I think that someone would want to say you:
"Yuffie is a quite useless character, it takes too long to make her join in your party…"
😉
I really agree with you with the spoiling of FFsaga with FFX2, I got bored of it form the start…
But don’t worry, I think that Matsuno and his guys (FFtactics, Vagrant Story) are shaping a brand new FF with the 12, wiyhout random encounters and a revolutionary battle system…
FF is not over yet!:D
MonkeyBone, you’re sick. You say that you absolutely hate FF7 now that after you’ve played it! If it isn’t a good game, then why do mostly all the FF fans say it’s the best? You are truely sick!
Wow, wtf?!?!
MonkeyBone, you’re sick. You say that you absolutely hate FF7 now that after you’ve played it! If it isn’t a good game, then why do mostly all the FF fans say it’s the best? You are truely sick!
Wow. That was probably the stupidest thing to be posted on this thread for at least the last several pages. Lots of us played it and didn’t like it. And how do you know that "mostly all the FF fans" think 7 was best? Did you ask them all?
You are truly sick.
Wow. That was probably the stupidest thing to be posted on this thread for at least the last several pages. Lots of us played it and didn’t like it. And how do you know that "mostly all the FF fans" think 7 was best? Did you ask them all?
You are truly sick.
Well I had typed something longer and I lost it. But if you really want to know, YES IT WAS THE MOST POPULAR. I find it highly amusing that one would deem it "unworthy" Sure, not all people have the same tastes, I know that! But looking at it now and criticizing it for not being up to par with this generation’s games, is very low and stupid. It’s obvious that it made the most money out of all the FF’s, can you not see that? Poking fun of the battle system isn’t a very good reasen either. So what? What was so bad about it? Was it so hard to use? I think that the materia system is one of the best battle systems that they have created, but that’s just me. The real deal here is that Final Fantasy 7 is popular, made lots of money, and introduced many non-Rpg players to the genre. Now if this game doesn’t deserve a praise then I don’t know what does. 😡
<B>But looking at it now and criticizing it for not being up to par with this generation’s games, is very low and stupid.</B>
Well, we have to compare the game with <I>something</I>. Do you want me to just say I’m not comparing it to other games when I critique FFVII? When people debate which Final Fantasy game is the best, they <I>have</I> to compare it.
<B>It’s obvious that it made the most money out of all the FF’s, can you not see that?</B>
I wonder where you came up with that brilliant conclusion.
<B>Poking fun of the battle system isn’t a very good reasen either. So what? What was so bad about it? Was it so hard to use?</B>
Uh that’s the whole point of criticizing; to show points that you think make a game weak. I have already stated what I think about the Materia System, and I believe that it is one of the reasons that makes FFVII a bad game.
<B>The real deal here is that Final Fantasy 7 is popular, made lots of money, and introduced many non-Rpg players to the genre. Now if this game doesn’t deserve a praise then I don’t know what does. :mad:</B>
I’m sorry, but FFVII has been receiving a ton of praise ever since it was released. So if you are saying that it doesn’t garner enough praise, or any at all, then you are being obtuse. It may have introduced many non-RPG players to the genre, but that’s because it was marketed so much that you heard about it everywhere you went. That’s a reason why it’s so popular, and why it still to this day continues to bring in money.
——————–
But I return to the main point:
In my opinion, this thread had to be entitled:
"Why FF7 ISN’T the best RPG ever" or
"Why FF7 ISN’T the greatest game ever" or even
"Why FF7 ISN’T a perfect game"
I know the title wanted to provoke,
but I still think that FF7 is a good game,
the creators of FF series crafted it with the heart, with the enthusiasm of the possibilities allowed by the new technology.
In my opinion, the following chapters are crafted more with the head, than with the heart.
That makes it a good and enjoyable game, but it still my point of view.
————————————–
It is only an impression of mine or does someone agree with me?
i hated the materia systems and the limit breaks learning system was crap not my fav it got to much praise but it aint all that gotta agree with aio on this one sorry
Well, we have to compare the game with <I>something</I>. Do you want me to just say I’m not comparing it to other games when I critique FFVII? When people debate which Final Fantasy game is the best, they <I>have</I> to compare it.
Well, you could compare it to other RPG’s that were out at about the same time… Surely there were a few other than FF7 released at the same time.
Also, I found this old article to be quite interesting. (http://members.aol.com/chikong/retro_ffantasy.html) Though somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand.
Well I had typed something longer and I lost it. But if you really want to know, YES IT WAS THE MOST POPULAR. I find it highly amusing that one would deem it "unworthy" Sure, not all people have the same tastes, I know that! But looking at it now and criticizing it for not being up to par with this generation’s games, is very low and stupid. It’s obvious that it made the most money out of all the FF’s, can you not see that? Poking fun of the battle system isn’t a very good reasen either. So what? What was so bad about it? Was it so hard to use? I think that the materia system is one of the best battle systems that they have created, but that’s just me. The real deal here is that Final Fantasy 7 is popular, made lots of money, and introduced many non-Rpg players to the genre. Now if this game doesn’t deserve a praise then I don’t know what does. 😡
Helol. Im an ffvii nut i liek ffvii no mattre waht. teh materai system ROCKS. n aslo so dose cloud. he is teh bset charatre eva!
al u ffvii hatres shoudl go to hell cos we all knwo its teh best ff game eva and you jstu cant tkae it. areis deaht made me cyr, and it was colo. cluods buster sowrd was aec. ffvii gotta haev made teh most monye. it rockde. it deserves more creidt thna it gest.
Well, we have to compare the game with <I>something</I>. Do you want me to just say I’m not comparing it to other games when I critique FFVII? When people debate which Final Fantasy game is the best, they <I>have</I> to compare it.
I wonder where you came up with that brilliant conclusion.
Uh that’s the whole point of criticizing; to show points that you think make a game weak. I have already stated what I think about the Materia System, and I believe that it is one of the reasons that makes FFVII a bad game.
I’m sorry, but FFVII has been receiving a ton of praise ever since it was released. So if you are saying that it doesn’t garner enough praise, or any at all, then you are being obtuse. It may have introduced many non-RPG players to the genre, but that’s because it was marketed so much that you heard about it everywhere you went. That’s a reason why it’s so popular, and why it still to this day continues to bring in money.
Ehe….what? Of course it has been receiving a ton, it deserved it! Square Enix went through hard work to make such a great game, and you’rre criticizing it just for the excuse of…Comparing it to today’s games?Wtf?!?! That’s the lamest excuse yet! For it’s time, it was exellent, and I’m sure that if we still lived in that time you would have kept your mouth shut and not said anything.
<B>Of course it has been receiving a ton, it deserved it!</B>
Why does FFVII deserve so much praise? And don’t just say "Because it’s a great game", or something lame like that.
<B>Square Enix went through hard work to make such a great game</B>
I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure most companies spend hard work on their games. Unless you can actually prove that Square spent a lot more effort into creating this game than all others they have made, then just don’t say anything like that.
<B>and you’rre criticizing it just for the excuse of…Comparing it to today’s games?</B>
No, I’m criticizing it because I don’t think it’s as good as everybody says it is.
<B>Wtf?!?! That’s the lamest excuse yet!</B>
No not really. Let’s say that FFVII was the only video game on the face of the planet, in existence. You would <I>have</I> to say that it’s the greatest game ever, because there would be nothing to compare it with. But since there are literally thousands of video games that have been created, people are now allowed to compare it to other games. I’m not just criticizing the game just because I’m comparing it to other games; I just don’t believe FFVII is that good.
<B>For it’s time, it was exellent, and I’m sure that if we still lived in that time you would have kept your mouth shut and not said anything. </B>
I’ve already admitted that the game was good when I first played it. But then again, that was seven years ago. My opinions on video games change over the period of years and years, and it has with FFVII.
Actually, my opinion is that video games have been getting progressively worse as time goes on. Game makers are now ignoring storyline more and more just to tack on with graphics.
I really don’t know how you can think that. After all, it’s been a relatively short time since we started getting games with any kind of story at all. Back in the days of the NES and SNES, good stories were rare even among RPGs. Even just a few short years ago, most games didn’t have anything more than an abbreviated backstory.
Nowadays, practically every game has a story to tell. Even if that story is crap, wouldn’t you say it’s better than no story at all? Considering that some games have truly exceptional stories, I’d say that it’s actually getting better.
Why does FFVII deserve so much praise? And don’t just say "Because it’s a great game", or something lame like that.
I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure most companies spend hard work on their games. Unless you can actually prove that Square spent a lot more effort into creating this game than all others they have made, then just don’t say anything like that.
No, I’m criticizing it because I don’t think it’s as good as everybody says it is.
No not really. Let’s say that FFVII was the only video game on the face of the planet, in existence. You would <I>have</I> to say that it’s the greatest game ever, because there would be nothing to compare it with. But since there are literally thousands of video games that have been created, people are now allowed to compare it to other games. I’m not just criticizing the game just because I’m comparing it to other games; I just don’t believe FFVII is that good.
I’ve already admitted that the game was good when I first played it. But then again, that was seven years ago. My opinions on video games change over the period of years and years, and it has with FFVII.
Umm…Reality check..
Yes they DID. You are stupid! They made millions of dollars on this one, and why are they even milking the franchise? To make more money on it! Because they know it was the most popular! And I’m just going to say it’s a great game, because it is, and you have different tastes than others.
I dont see anything wrong with final fantasy 7 except for the graphics when your walking around, they’re all square and got bricks for hands :/
The battle system was fine, limit breaks were fine, characters were fine, storyline was brilliant, ending was brilliant, i dont see nothing wrong.
Umm…Reality check..
Yes they DID. You are stupid! They made millions of dollars on this one, and why are they even milking the franchise? To make more money on it! Because they know it was the most popular! And I’m just going to say it’s a great game, because it is, and you have different tastes than others.
For the last time, this is not a thread about how popular the game was. It’s about how good it was. Those are not the same thing. I think a lot of really popular games suck.
I don#t know what it was that made Square Enix not release any FF game before FF7 in Europe.
FF7 was the first one of the series to be released in Europe, the first one to be released worldwide, the first one that got the CHANCE to impress all those people on such a large scale.
.
most of the other ff games(if not all of them) befor ff7 were released in europe. i have still got most of the old ones somewere
You called someone stupid in a debate thread. That’s mistake #1.
Mistake #2 was you professing that it’s only someone’s opinion after very clear reasons have been given to support their position. In other words, you’re incapable of defending your opinion, so you’re trying (badly, I might add) to invalidate someone elses. That’s really childish and reflects badly on the side you’re trying to support.
If you want to take part in this discussion, do it properly and stop acting like a damn BRAT.
I have to celebrate, I think.
For the first time, I think that Prak is right.
I know that is a provoking person, but saying "you are stupid" is not only ridicolous, is not fair.
In one word… it’s stupid.
Prak is surely quite arrogant, but he’s smart in arguing about those matters.
Please don’t bring down the level of the discussion with childish sentences like that.
Anyway, I have noticed something else different about FF7 and its following chapters: there is a loss of humour.
I make just an exaple:
Can u imagine Squall of Final F8 or Tidus of FFX climbing on a WC?
No, of course.:D
I think that FFsaga has to return to some stupids (but entertaing)moments of its origins.
Anyway, I have noticed something else different about FF7 and its following chapters: there is a loss of humour.
Are you saying that FFVII is the only humorous game in the series? I’m sorry, but saying that since all the Final Fantasy games after VII don’t have humor takes away something from those games isn’t right. Games like these are not meant to be funny.
Tifa_Martial_Artist, that was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen you say. And that’s saying something.
You called someone stupid in a debate thread. That’s mistake #1.
Mistake #2 was you professing that it’s only someone’s opinion after very clear reasons have been given to support their position. In other words, you’re incapable of defending your opinion, so you’re trying (badly, I might add) to invalidate someone elses. That’s really childish and reflects badly on the side you’re trying to support.
If you want to take part in this discussion, do it properly and stop acting like a damn BRAT.
Aww..I’m sowwy, did I huwt yow feewings?11123
I’m not talking about how popular it was, in fact, I’m talking about how popular and GOOD it was. So if you can’t accept the fact that it DID make lots of money and that it WAS loved by more people than Zelda to this day, well..then…That’s just your opinion, but it doesn’t change the fact.
<B>Aww..I’m sowwy, did I huwt yow feewings?11123</B>
You don’t realize how stupid you look by putting all those numbers in there.
<B>I’m not talking about how popular it was, in fact, I’m talking about how popular and GOOD it was.</B>
I talked about how popular it was, and I also gave reasons as to why it became, and still is to this day, so popular. I also have admitted that I thought it was a good game, when I first played it, but that was seven years ago, and I no longer hold that same feeling over the game. I have since stated the reasons why I think FFVII is a bad game, which I’ve yet to see why you believe it’s a good game.
<B>So if you can’t accept the fact that it DID make lots of money and that it WAS loved by more people than Zelda to this day, well..then…That’s just your opinion, but it doesn’t change the fact.</B>
I, for one, know that it did make lots of money. Prak and I have also talked about it, and we both fully acknowledge that FFVII brought in a ton of money. I have never said it didn’t bring in lots of money, so to come up with that statement is just beyond me.
Also, what’s with the Zelda reference?
Anyway, wheres the money element come from. This thread is about Why FFVII is BAD, and its turned round. 🙁 .
Its turned into a maaive brawl thanks to the Jerkasses who whined at the slightest element of critisism for the game.
NB: If you ever want your Problems analysed, contact Prak!
I’m not talking about how popular it was… if you can’t accept the fact that it DID make lots of money and that it WAS loved by more people than Zelda to this day, well..then…That’s just your opinion, but it doesn’t change the fact.
Like I said, I think a lot of really popular games suck. And your only argument is how much money it made and how many people loved the game. That is astoundingly similar to saying that is a very popular game. It’s as though you aren’t even reading the other people’s posts, and you’re just reiterating your superfluous argument. Also, I am pretty sure that we all know that what we are saying is our opinion, so you don’t have to tell us.
I mean, did you even bother to read all the stuff we posted? We’ve ass-raped nearly every aspect of the game. You simply saying it’s good doesn’t stand up to that.
Who says that FF7 is a bad or not a good game is not simply saying "’cause I don’t like it" (this is obviously possible)
but spends in some cases tons of text just to say:
FF7 is not so great as you FF7-maniac can think.
If u look at the first post of the thread, you will see criticisims like "FF7 is not the only game where a character dies".
This can only mean: "You, FF7 maniac, that you are saying that FF7 is the only-best-greatest-RPG and game of ever and the others suck, you must know that is not so original"
There are more sentences like that. So what?
It’ not SO damn unique for you?
Ok, but it was beautiful and is still a great game, ’cause has many enjoyable features that are not so different from the other chapters.
I like it more than its following chapters, maybe it’s personal taste;
but a real bad game shouldn’t even deserve to be played or completed,
and even the most angry FF7 hater did it.
So, let’s change the title of the thread as:
"WHY FF7 ISN’T A PERFECT GAME"…
😀
<B>Who says that FF7 is a bad or not a good game is not simply saying "’cause I don’t like it" (this is obviously possible)</B>
That is not necessarily true. I think Grand Theft Auto is a great series, but I absolutely hate it.
If u look at the first post of the thread, you will see criticisims like "FF7 is not the only game where a character dies".
<B>This can only mean: "You, FF7 maniac, that you are saying that FF7 is the only-best-greatest-RPG and game of ever and the others suck, you must know that is not so original"
There are more sentences like that. So what?
It’ not SO damn unique for you?</B>
If only I was capable of understanding what you were trying to say, then I would be able to respond to something more witty than this.
<B>Ok, but it was beautiful and is still a great game, ’cause has many enjoyable features that are not so different from the other chapters.</B>
If it has many enjoyable features that are similar to the other Final Fantasy games, then surely you are saying that they are great as well.
<B>I like it more than its following chapters, maybe it’s personal taste;</B>
Or maybe because the Final Fantasy series has been trying to impress everyone with their drop-dead graphics, instead of a good storyline. FFX was an exception.
<B>but a real bad game shouldn’t even deserve to be played or completed,
and even the most angry FF7 hater did it.</B>
That’s an irrelevant statement. Just because a game is bad, doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be played by people.
People never actually <I>know</I> whether a game is good or not until they <B>play the game</B>. Yes, you can come up with an expectation from reading game reviews or something else like that, but you never really get the full feeling of the game until you play it.
<B>So, let’s change the title of the thread as:
"WHY FF7 ISN’T A PERFECT GAME"…
😀 </B>
I’m sorry, but there is no perfect game out there. And by saying that, you <I>are</I> claiming FFVII to be the perfect game.
Or maybe because the Final Fantasy series has been trying to impress everyone with their drop-dead graphics, instead of a good storyline. FFX was an exception..
Originally posted by Smokey
Or maybe because the Final Fantasy series has been trying to impress everyone with their drop-dead graphics, instead of a good storyline. FFX was an exception..
FF1 was the first RPG I ever played. And to be honest, I wouldn’t have cared if FF7 had the same 8-bit sprites and everything, I still thought it was a good game. I don’t see why you think that the story is so straightforward and easy to follow; it took me three times through the game to figure out who Cloud was (I was about 7 or so the first time, so I couldn’t quite grasp it then.) And as for FFX, what good storyline there may have been was too hard to concentrate on considering how whiny and annoying Tidus was. *Spoiler coming up* It was like Christmas come early for me when I found out he didn’t exist. Finally, I don’t think it’s a fair comparison between FF7 and the earlier ones. You have to understand that FF7 opened the series up for a larger audience, for better or for worse.
P.S. I also don’t like the fact that the main male character seems to have less and less clothing in every game. (yes, I am male)
<B>I don’t see why you think that the story is so straightforward and easy to follow; it took me three times through the game to figure out who Cloud was (I was about 7 or so the first time, so I couldn’t quite grasp it then.)</B>
I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I’m older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.
Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It’s just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.
Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That’s it? That’s the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.
This is the storyline of FFVII:
You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.
__________________________________________________
Notice how there aren’t any bumps or nicks in the line?
Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.
Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:
Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.
Done.
Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.
Done.
Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.
Done.
This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn’t really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.
Like I said before, it’s like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
This is what I think about the storyline.
<B>Finally, I don’t think it’s a fair comparison between FF7 and the earlier ones. You have to understand that FF7 opened the series up for a larger audience, for better or for worse.</B>
When you compare FFVII to see if it is better than other games in the series, you <I>have</I> to compare it with the ones before it. I don’t see why you even say something like that. I believe that FFIV, FFVI, and FFX are all better than FFVII. Notice how two of those games are ones that were released prior to FFVII?
And quit with the whole "FFVII PAVED THE WAY FOR GAMES TO COME" crap. It only ‘paved’ the way, because there was a lot more that Square could do with the game, because it was being produced for a more powerful system than SNES. The system is what paves the way for games to come.
And quit with the whole "FFVII PAVED THE WAY FOR GAMES TO COME" crap. It only ‘paved’ the way, because there was a lot more that Square could do with the game, because it was being produced for a more powerful system than SNES. The system is what paves the way for games to come.
I didn’t say that FF7 was revolutionarily good or anything like that. What I mean by what I said is that FF7 was an attempt to get more money by opening the series up to a larger audience. This, if anything, was a bad thing. And I see your point about the sraightforward plot, but I think that is another product of trying open up the series for a larger audience. Again, I did not say this was a good thing. If you look at FFX-2, you see what this sort of popularization has done to the series. Another thing that sort of gave the illusion of a really good storyline was the soundtrack. When Sephiroth first begins to manipulate Cloud, the music is incredibly eerie. It is my opinion that FF7 had the best soundtrack of the series hands down. No, I’m not saying that it IS the best, I’m just saying that is my opinion. And yeah, I realize that I was pretty much totally wrong about the comparison thing; you’re right, you do have to compare it to earlier games. I will say in defense of the plot though that Aeris’s death was not the only reason for fighting Sephiroth, Cloud had many other reasons (I.E. his hometown was completely destroyed, Tifa almost killed) and the rest of your party had each his/her separate reason. And I’m not saying that this IS THE reason, but your opinion of FF7 may have something to do with the lack of replayability of most RPGs. The only really replayable RPG was Chrono Trigger, and, well, that was quite a good game.
P.S. When I said I thought FF7 had the best soundtrack of the series, I was excluding non Final Fantasy games by Square, so that puts Chrono Trigger out of the category. I can’t decide which of the two has the better soundtrack.
<B>I didn’t say that FF7 was revolutionarily good or anything like that.</B>
Well, when you say that you think it’s a good game, and that it paved the way, it sounds like you are saying something similar to that.
<B>Another thing that sort of gave the illusion of a really good storyline was the soundtrack. When Sephiroth first begins to manipulate Cloud, the music is incredibly eerie.</B>
I’ll admit that the soundtrack is good. There are some great tracks on there, but I don’t see that as a contributing factor to the storyline. Yes, when Sephiroth is manipulating Cloud, the music that plays in the background does set the mood and scene really well. But I don’t think it added anything significent to the story.
<B>It is my opinion that FF7 had the best soundtrack of the series hands down. No, I’m not saying that it IS the best, I’m just saying that is my opinion.</B>
Again, I think it has a good soundtrack, maybe even great. I would have to go back and listen to it again. And I can’t compare it to all the other Final Fantasies, because I wasn’t using that as one of my arguments against the game or anything. If I actually sat down and compared the Final Fantasy soundtracks, I would be able to tell you whether or not I think it is one of the best, or just really good.
<B>And I’m not saying that this IS THE reason, but your opinion of FF7 may have something to do with the lack of replayability of most RPGs. The only really replayable RPG was Chrono Trigger, and, well, that was quite a good game.</B>
For one, pick up Tales of Symphonia. Now there is an RPG with loads of replay value. And if you are saying that there is only one RPG that is worth replaying, then I don’t think you have played too many at all.
1. No replay value.
Your point is: because I don’t like the ending, because the secrets are reacheable during the 1st play. But, completing the game surely takes long, maybe the game is not thought about replaying, but about LONG-playing.
The other chapters of FF are also in this way: why do u have to complain just about FF7?
2. Linear story.
Ok, you think that. Let’s assume that is true.
I think that even FFX has a linear story (in my opinion, more than 7, but it’s just my thought)
SPOILERS COMING: Tidus is brought to another dimension, he knows new friends, they must trave l to Zanarkand and defeat Seymour and Sin, who’s actually the father of Tidus. And Tidus came from a virtual dimension: Auron knew it, but he revealed just at the end… what a surprise…
But the difference between me and you, Smokey, is that I think that FFX is still a good game despite to the linear story: it’s linear, but it’s enjoyable the first time, even if there aren’t many surprises.
A game is a bad game when its gameplay doesn’t work, or the plot is really obvious, that’s for sure.
I think it’s not the case of FF7.
And if you are saying that there is only one RPG that is worth replaying, then I don’t think you have played too many at all.
I wasn’t saying that, I was just giving an example. The FF series is pretty much just unreplayable RPGs, and that was my point.
<B>Smokey, you said that (for the Nth time) FF7 is a bad game bacause has:
1. No replay value.
The other chapters of FF are also in this way: why do u have to complain just about FF7?</B>
This is the FFVII forum, and also the thread about FFVII. I’m not here to discuss any other game, because the thread is not about what makes FFX a bad game.
<B>2. Linear story.
Ok, you think that. Let’s assume that is true.
I think that even FFX has a linear story (in my opinion, more than 7, but it’s just my thought)
SPOILERS COMING: Tidus is brought to another dimension, he knows new friends, they must trave l to Zanarkand and defeat Seymour and Sin, who’s actually the father of Tidus. And Tidus came from a virtual dimension: Auron knew it, but he revealed just at the end… what a surprise…
[I]But the difference between me and you, Smokey, is that I think that FFX is still a good game despite to the linear story: it’s linear, but it’s enjoyable the first time, even if there aren’t many surprises.</B>
Ok, once again, we are discussing FFVII, not FFX. I’ll go ahead and say that I think FFX is better, and does have a linear storyline. So what? That isn’t even one of my points. And I have no idea where you are assuming I said FFX wasn’t a good game.
<I>Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves
</I>
<B>I wasn’t saying that, I was just giving an example. The FF series is pretty much just unreplayable RPGs, and that was my point.</B>
<B>but your opinion of FF7 may have something to do with the lack of replayability of most RPGs. The only really replayable RPG was Chrono Trigger, and, well, that was quite a good game.</B>
No, you weren’t only talking about the Final Fantasies in general. If you were, you did a poor job at it. It is clear that you stated most RPG’s as having no replay value at all.
you can never say something like "this is the greatest game in the world" because human improves and everything will be different, but for people who (like me) loves to stick to one thing that’s why there are the so call million and billions of fanatics in this world…….we stay true to what we love even though there’ better things than the things we love……..
everyone has their own preference of what’s a great game and we cannot change that. what make ff7 a great game is that some people just happens to love it although it might not be the best in the world just like how you love an artist and some people might try to make u dislike that artist but you continue to like that artist because we simply have our own reasons and we simply love the artist for being their imperfect self…..either good or bad…..
for example when playstation came out it was like the best game system, but now they improve and we have better ones like psp, x-box, ps2 etc. just to satisfy our human wants that are always unlimited……..we can never be satisfy and that’s what make this world so unique because over time we keep on improving but what was once great will always stay great!
you did admit you once love it…..and that’s enough right? us, fanboys and fangirls who love ff7 like you said, are not going crazy and telling everyone how good it is and dissing other games because we love ff7 and hate the others….we’re only doing our part as fans to support the game we love and that’s not wrong of us because just like how we love, we love unconditionally and wholely (well for some people it’s a different story).
I’m not trying to change your thoughts and it’s good that we can hear views from people like you about the game…the forum is so much active!:) and it gives us a chance to express our views about it…….
I must say you make a very poignant argument, however you missed a very key element to what makes FF7 such
a GOOD game; that is to say, the amazing charater development. I commend the writers for creating characters you can literally fall in love with. It gives me an emotional rush every time I play that game and I can’t get enough of it. Switching gears a little the writers have incredible imagination (something you can obviousley never posess); with the exception of Barret and in some instances Cid, the writers never revert to "Stock Characters" and end up creating very original very REAL and very compelling characters. Coinciding with this inherent genious of character strategy and beautifully timed introduction, is the rollercoater of emotions inter-twined with the characters while progressing through the plot. If you notice that unlike other games that are either always dark or always happy, FF7 goes from one extreme to the other and everywhere in-between. This aforementioned rollercoaster keeps you fixated on the game and wondering where it is going next. As for the plot line itself, did you decide whether it was simple or not before or after you finished the game? I’m sorry but unless you have some type of as of yet undiscovered premonition you could never have known meteor was going to ram into the planet when Cloud and Barret first started out in Midgar. Besides all of this, I find myself humming the music of FF7 from time to time and that in and of itself is pretty cool;) Answer to all of
these equally poignant arguments and you might earn my respect… Rabid Monkey???
<B>us, fanboys and fangirls who love ff7 like you said, are not going crazy and telling everyone how good it is and dissing other games because we love ff7 and hate the others</B>
You obviously haven’t been here long enough to see how most of the FFVII fans truly act. Granted, they might not always say "FFVII IS THE BEST GAME EVAR!", but they are still saying a bunch of other crap that gets old rather quickly.
Also, John Locke Jr, you should read the entire thread. It is apparent that Rabid Monkey hasn’t posted in this one for a while now, as it has been basically Prak and I still criticizing the game.
You (Smokey), Rabid Monkey and MAYBE FF1WithAllTheives are the only one’s with comments worth argueing or accepting. If you are taking Rabid Monkey’s place then you may answer for him. I would much appreciate it 🙂
FF1WithAllTheives: most of what you say seems very well thought out consice and to the point, (Redundant) I commend you.
I was about twelve when I first played FF7 and it was also my first RPG 🙂
<B>I joined this site last night after I read most of the posts in this thread. I have never before been to a forum, so that litttle piece of work was my first ever post 🙂 </B>
Then I welcome you to this forum. I hope you stay here and have lots of fun.
<B>You (Smokey), Rabid Monkey and MAYBE FF1WithAllTheives are the only one’s with comments worth argueing or accepting. If you are taking Rabid Monkey’s place then you may answer for him. I would much appreciate it :)</B>
I’m sorry, but I don’t answer for him. If you really want to know bad enough, PM him about it, and ask for yourself.
After which, though, it’s incredibly stale–and quite uneventful.
I feel insulted. Why would you think my arguments aren’t worth regarding? I do so hope you have an answer for that. Otherwise, I promise you will not live it down as long as you post here.
Anyway, you’ve all managed to move me from one side of the board to the middle and I now accept that FFVII is both a good and bad game.
Keep debating by the way cause you guys are great at it!
(This is the first time I’ve posted in a forum so be nice…please…)
I think my objections are quite well detailed. Just go back and look at them if you really want to debate them.
Yes I agree that fans with more sense wouldn’t do that…what I mean is that I wouldn’t know of what the other fans here do since I’m rather new to the game or this forum.
To tell the truth I was only attracted to this game only because of the introduction of Advent Children from a friend. I thought the characters were pretty attractive and I was always amazed by the CG works of the final fantasy makers. I don’t really have any certain set standard for a good game; once I like the game I like it no matter how much flaws it has or how easy it is. The easier the better for me since I’m not those people that’ll like to load my brain with a bunch of cell killers since I’m already stressed enough with school works which made me sleep everynight at 2. I just like those type of games where I don’t have to get crazy off because I can’t beat it.
Fine, here you go:
<B>Storyline</B>
I admit that the story was really hard for me to understand at first. Then again, I’m older now than I was when I first played it, so I am able to comprehend what really went on during the game. The more you think about it, the more you actually believe that the story is, in fact, not that good.
Also, the game tells everything you need to know, without doing some searching for clues. There is basically nothing you have to figure out on your own, which makes it a weak storyline. A good storyline makes you put some thought into what you are seeing unfold on the screen. It’s just all right there, laid out for you crystal clear.
Basically, one of my major views on whether a story is excellent, great, good, poor, or terrible, is how interested you are in playing the game again, once you have beaten it already. The first time I played through FFVII, I openly admit I thought it was a better than average story, maybe even really good. But, once you beat the game, you are just left with that disgusting taste in your mouth. You sit there and think "That’s it? That’s the end of FFVII"? This caused me to change my view on the story, from good, to not very good at all. FFVII has terrible replay value, because the story can be followed by a little puppy, of all things.
This is the storyline of FFVII:
You stay on a straight path, exactly like a timeline.
__________________________________________________
Notice how there aren’t any bumps or nicks in the line?
Every necessary event that is required for you to understand the plot is directly on the timeline. There are no twists and turns, no hills or holes, nothing. All you have to do is move Cloud around the places the game directs you to, and you will finish the game.
Need more proof that the storyline is linear? This is the exact format that the plot follows throughout the game:
Shinra is a bad company, so we need to stop them right now.
Done.
Mako is a good thing for the planet, so we shoud conserve it in anyway possible.
Done.
Sephiroth is the villian of the game. He killed Aeris, so we need to kill him.
Done.
This is the gist of the storyline. The point I want to make, is that there isn’t really any options as to what you are allowed to do in the game itself.
Like I said before, it’s like a straight timeline. Nothing to figure out on your own, and the game tells you pretty much everything you need to know.
<B>An Unfinished Game</B>
The guy in the pipe at the beginning of the game could very well possibly be Zack. But, Square didn’t add anything else to the game, that could have led you to finding out exactly who it was in there.
The guy who’s living in it is a normal human who was
infected with Jenova cells, that’s why he has a number 2 tattoo. After you have finished with dialouge in the Midgar Slums, you are told that an Elixer can be found in the pipe. But, when you go back there, you will not find an Elixer. Obviously, this is a mistake by Square, or quite possibly, an item they just took out of the game. But how could the item have gotten there in the first place?
The Nibelheim clones. Every guy in a black cloak gave us some item after we talked to him, right? And all the clones had a number tattoed on their body somewhere, just like the man in the pipe. But, if that’s the case, why wouldn’t this man give you an item as well?
If you want some more rock-solid evidence that FFVII isn’t and never will be a finished game, go here
<B>Aeris’ Death</B>
Aeris’ death is probably the defining moment in the game. Without it, most of the storyline wouldn’t make sense at all, because a good chunk of what happens after her death is revolved around the party’s resolve to not let her sacrifice be in vain.
Another thing: I don’t see why people get so riled up about this scene. Aeris was going to die sooner or later, so why not just get it over with? In fact, it would have been worse if she died later in the game. Her relationship would have improved with Cloud probably, and it would have been more uncessessary drama to see her die after this.
She knew that she was going to have to surrender her life anyway to summon Holy. After you have figured this out later in the game, you realize that her death is very overrated and not really dramatic.
<B>The Importance of Aeris’ Death</B>
When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn’t know if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn’t guarantee the party’s safety at all. Yes, her death was important for the storyline, but she was going to die regardless of whether or not Sephiroth did her in first.
When Aeris died, the whole story was pretty much laid out, and the party knew of the exact dangers that lie ahead of them.
<B>Cloud in the Lifestream</B>
Can you say incredibly boring? I mean, this sequence of events did reveal some important facts about Cloud and other necessities, but did Square have to do it in this fashion? I don’t see what the big deal about that was, anyway. I mean, Cloud was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s not like he intentionally jumped into the Lifestream for no apparent reason or anything.
Still to this day, I see no importance in having that scene as part of the game. IMO, I thought it was just an excuse to get away from the mediocre, at best, storyline.
<B>The Materia System</B>
I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it’s a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you. That’s pretty stupid if you ask me. Also, since the Materia depletes your HP and Strength, you have to waste even more slots to bring back up these two categories, with HP Plus, and Str. Plus.
I admit, that the Materia System was fresh and original. I will even go as far as to say it was interesting. But that’s it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out how to work the Materia. You just equip it to your weapon and/or armor, watch your HP and Str. deplete, and fight enough enemies until you learn the ability. That is all there is to it. Plus, when you have the "All" materia equipped with one like "Cure", you are only allowed to use it a specific number of times during battle? Come on.
You say the Materia System takes some thinking and thought? Pfft. The strategy guide describes to you all of the basic combinations that you will ever need, even though it’s doesn’t take a genius to figure out how to work it. It isn’t complicated at all. You just put a Materia here and there, and you will come up with a combination that is good enough.
The Materia System is terrible. Some materia such as the KotR materia, reduces your maximum HP by 20%. So, you are capable of losing up to 2,000 of your Max HP, just by being able to cast a summon? That is pretty lame.
Also, the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in battles leveling up your Materia to a certain strongness is something that made the game very boring for me. I don’t want to spend hours earning AP, just so that my Choco/Mog summon can gain another star, and be that much closer to giving birth to a new Choco/Mog.
<B>The Advertising of FFVII</B>
FFVII is by-far the most advertised game in history. On the television ads, you would see the FMV’s from the game itself, because that was meant to be eye candy to consumers and customers alike. It seemed like I saw a commercial for this game everday, seven years ago.
Also, the strategy guide was released with the game. It was the first Final Fantasy game to do this, so that is another reason people loved this game immediately. Owners of local game shops everywhere were telling people to buy the strategy guide along with it, just to help with the publicity FFVII wanted to receive. With the stategy guide, gamers didn’t even have to think about what to do next, or where to go. Everything was given to them on a silver platter, so to speak.
<B>What Makes FFVII So Popular</B>
FFVII is one of the most popular games ever, because it is so easy to learn and finish. If Square made the game more difficult, then there is no question that people would be less appealed to purchase it. I mean seriously, this is one of the easiest games I have ever played in my life, and I’ve been playing for well over 16 years now.
And there is something wrong when a game is this simple. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. FFVII provided a tiny bit, or really none at all. Video games should be designed that you at least have to ponder the storyline every now and then.
I also admit that there are some things that you need to stray off-course to acquire. You would have never found out that information without straying off-course some. But still, doing this isn’t required to finish the game. It wasn’t mandatory to find out this information, or get Vincent’s best weapon. This is all just side-quests, extra stuff that tries to add a little bit more fun to the game. It would be nice if there was something hard that was mandatory in the game.
<B>The Strategy Guide</B>
The strategy guide. Yes, like I said before, this was the first Final Fantasy game to come with a strategy guide. The book alone is a reason that led to the huge success of FFVII. Take away the strategy guide with the release of the game, and the game would be less popular today. I know that strategy guides are available for the previous Final Fantasy games, but they are really hard to find now. And, they were hard to find then, because I never saw one for FFIV or FFVI. I love the challenge of playing through a game without any help. But, obviously thousands of FFVII fans didn’t see it my way.
The game is incredibly easy. It tells you straight out what is playing out, in accordance with where you need to head next. You don’t have to do a little bit of hunting to find out what location you are supposed to be at. I didn’t actually need to look at the strategy guide to finish the game, because the story is so linear, and it is darn near impossible to stray off-course. The only reason I look at strategy guides is for replay value. When I play games again for the second time, I will always check the book to acquire all the hidden items and what-not. But I have never played FFVII since I finished it the first time, because there is no replay value there whatsoever.
<B>Knights Of The Round</B>
All you FFVII fans rave about how awesome of a summon Knights of the Round is. But, you don’t even need it to beat the game. I don’t understand why it takes an incredible amount of time (Chocobo racing), to be able to get the materia to summom KOTR. This summon helps make the game popular, while the fact of the matter is, KOTR is irrelevant to finishing the game.
You may also say that it takes some time to earn a Gold Chocobo to fly to the cave for the KOTR summon, and that that provides a challenge. But there’s no point to it. It takes way too long for you to do something as small as acquiring a useless summon.
It takes way too long to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean seriously, the only reason you need the Gold Chocobo is to get the KOTR summon. Everything else you use the Chocobo for is pretty useless. And the really bad part, is that you don’t even need to breed to get a Chocobo. Just defeat one of the Weapons, and you can acquire a Gold Chocobo. I think it’s pretty stupid that they even put the breeding in the game. No use for it.
<B>Manipulation</B>
FFVII was a smash hit because the game manipulated it’s fans with these "outstanding" graphics, the "awesomeness" of a silver-haired villian with a huge ass sword, and the marketing it received.
<B>Play Final Fantasy 1-6 First</B>
Another reason that FFVII is so popular, is the fact that most of the fans of the game never played Final Fantasy 1-6. Seriously, if they had, they wouldn’t say that everything about the game is revolutionary. FFVI has a better storyline than FFVII, and also more personality in their characters. FFIV had the ongoing theme of the love triangle between Cecil, Kain, and Rosa.
What did FFVII have? A guy that tries to have sex with Cloud.
<B>The Graphics</B>
The graphics were some of the best anyone had ever seen when the game came out. Yes, it was nice to see this, but it subtracted from the storyline. I believe, basically, that the storylines of all the Final Fantasy games after VI have gone downhill. Square is putting more time and thought into graphical representation than storytelling, and that’s a shame.
You really can’t use the argument of FFVII’s graphics being revolutionary either. Take FFVIII for example; FFVIII is far superior and the release dates are only a couple years apart. By reading this, you would have to say that FFVIII was revolutionary in graphics, not FFVII. Of course the graphics were better than those of the SNES. But, what do you expect from a more powerful system in the Playstation?
<B>The Limit Break</B>
Quite frankly, I thought it was retarded. You aren’t allowed to physically attack anymore until you have used your Limit Break? That is so stupid. What happens if you are right before a big boss, and you earn your Limit Break. You don’t want to use it on weak enemies, and you certainly don’t want to spend more time earning the Limit Break again if you do decide to use it.
<B>Shinra And The Turks</B>
This is one thing I really hated about the game; the lack of Shinra and the Turks really being involved with the story more. I mean, Before Crisis is coming out now regarding the history of the Turks and such. But, I would have loved to see more about this in FFVII, not the prequel.
<B>The Ending</B>
I still, to this day, do not totally understand the ending. Probably because I see how it had nothing to do with the storyline. It just shows Red XIII overlooking a grassy Midgar? Wow, that’s awesome!
No, there was nothing to the ending. You see Red XIII running with his kids or whoever the little ones are. And then, it shows a grassy Midgar. That’s it! Usually when an ending is good, it has something to do with the storyline, or with what happened previously with the final boss. But this ending was crap. It didn’t make any sense, there was no meaning behind it. And it didn’t leave any imagination to me, because it had nothing to do with the game.
<B>The Battle System</B>
Another aspect I hated was that only three characters were in your party at a time. With FFIV, you could have all you need to win a battle; two attackers, one defender, one for healing and such, and one for summons. FFIV did marvelous with making your final party fit into a specific role. Rydia is the summoner, Rosa is the one that keeps the party alive, Kain is a deadly assassin, Edge strikes quickly and brutally, and Cecil is the perfect hero who both attacks his enemies and protects his friends. I didn’t see this at all in FFVII.
<B>Sephiroth</B>
Greatest villian of all time?
No. Sephiroth is maybe a descent villian, but I don’t consider him to be better than someone like Kefka, by a longshot.
I never found Sephiroth to be that evil, and certainly not sadistic. He had a reason to go crazy, because he was created. That’s pretty much it. Look at Kefka. Now there is a sadistic and truly evil villian.
For instance, Sephiroth kills Aeris from behind, flys away when danger is near (Cloud), and always manipulates Cloud to do his dirty work. If you ask me, that sounds kind of cowardish.
Kefka wouldn’t kill Aeris from behind. He would do it so that she could see him deliver the finishing blow. Then, knowing that her death is not good enough, he would stand over the body and laugh *grr*, and then slice her head off. And he wouldn’t run away from the scene of the crime either.
Sephiroth is a boring and flat character. He never scared me with anything he did. His atmosphere never drove me to hate him, like villians are supposed to do. I don’t see what is so special about Sephiroth? His Masamune?
If you think Sephiroth is the best Final Fantasy villian ever, you need to play, preferably, FFVI again. Sephiroth is really one-dimensional, in the sense that he basically had only one goal.
Also, he did some irrelevant actions during the game.
Why was he goofing and messing around at the Gold Saucer?
He did kill Aeris, but he was a coward when he did it.
Maybe the most important thing, is that he was basically sleeping throughout most of the game. Then, near the end, he wakes up, and grows a wing and halo?
Sephiroth is not that cool.
<B>Rufus</B>
I thought Rufus was pretty random. I mean, the point when you learn Sephiroth kills Rufus’s father, and then the presidency is granted to Rufus, was pretty stupid. There was no meaning in it, and it basically didn’t add anything to the story. Except to make you think Sephiroth is this out of control villain who can’t be stopped.
<B>Zack</B>
And yes, I have heard the rumor of Zack being the man in the pipe. But, you meet him so early in the game, that you have no idea why he is there or what the tattoo is for. And, once you reach the point in the game where you learn about the men with numbers tattooed on their bodies, you don’t remember about the man in the pipe at all. It’s only when you replay the game after beating it that you realize it may be Zack in the pipe. I, for one, honestly do not believe Zack was killed when he got pegged with countless bullets. How he could have survived, I don’t know that. The game would have been better if it dove more into him and his past, but it didn’t.
<B>Mini-Games</B>
I found the Mini-Games to be entertaining, for about a minute. The Gold Saucer is so boring and useless to the story, that there is no reason to even visit again after you are required to. Helping a Moogle have sex with another Moogle has got to be the most bizarre mini-game to date. Arm Wresting, Basketball, Kick-Boxing? Yes, there are a variety of mini-games in FFVII, but there is no big reward for them. With Blitzball in FFX, you received a lot better rewards for winning matches and scoring goals.
Variety, I will give to you. It had sumo-wrestling, kick-boxing, basketball, motorcycycle riding, and several more that I don’t feel like listing. But quality? That is where I draw the line at. Aren’t mini-games supposed to give you at least a descent reward?
What do you get for getting a Moogle laid?
30 points.
Anything else you guys would like for me to explain?
I said the reason Sephiroth went all crazy and stuff was because he was created. Meaning, at the time, it’s what him and everyone believed was true. I know he wasn’t created, but I said that because it’s what drove him insane.
<B>Also, the part about Cloud in the lifestream was necessary, even if it could have been done much better. I mean, Cloud is the main character in the game, and you don’t even know who he is.</B>
If you read carefully, I said that while Cloud was in the Lifestream, some important information was revealed. I also said that it was really boring and pointless, because why did Square have to take so long in leaking out bits of information at a time. In a whole, the scene wasn’t necessary, because I think it was pretty stupid to have something like that take so long. Those facts should have been spread out more over the course of the game.
<B>The one thing that I must say is that none of the FF games that came out after it were any better. FFVIII was more of the same that was in FFVII, so it was OK.</B>
I really don’t like this game at all either, but I won’t get into that here.
<B>But FFIX and FFX had the most annoying main characters ever created. Zidane was an arrogant little piece of crap. But Tidus, *shudders*. As I said before, (spoiler coming up) it was like Christmas come early when I found out that he didn’t exist.</B>
You’re saying that FFIX and FFX are worse than FFVII because Zidane and Tidus were annoying characters? I’m not trying to get into a debate about this here, but that’s a pretty weak reason to say one game is better than the other.
<B>As for FFX-2, I refuse to play a game in which the main character is a pop singer. </B>
You only say that because of the opening scene. It’s not like she stays a pop singer throughout the entire game.
That’s a pretty retarded statement. There are far more fans of this game than any of the other Final Fantasy games. Also, there are so many people who come to register <I>mainly</I> for the sole purpose of posting in this forum and finding out as much as they can about BC and AC.
As for FFX, I really do mean to say that Tidus got in the way of the game itself. I cringed every time he said something. It’s just so hard to enjoy a game with a character like that.
Concerning FFX-2, well, I might play it some time. However, I really don’t feel much inclination to get it, as the FF series seems to have been going downhill since FFVI.
I’m still totally in the dark about FFXII, so don’t ask me about that one.
but shoot yourself. I have all the final fantasy’s and i won’t argue that ffvII isn’t the best, but in my opinion the only thing that can touch ffVII would be ffVI…and ffVII did make you think so dunno what your talking about. maybe you didnt get the full plot?
My favorite RPG though is ffvii ( at leas tin the ff series ) because it’s so damn different.
the materia system is UNIQUE. most characters learn magic and that limits who can use waht
and as for one character cna use every skill in the game…it’s not like it’s easy to get that! You have to master ALL the materia in the game…that’s like 100 materia! Thats maddd AP … it would take quite a while, even while fighting the pots in the crater, as well as using clouds apocalypse.
and as for the storyline…it’s ingenius. Pure geniosity. If this gamae isn’t good then i dunno what WAS good!
My favorite games: Crono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy VII, Final fantasy VI, and Star Ocean 2.
oh well..to each his/her own.
More like, you can’t come up with enough to respond with.
<B>but shoot yourself. I have all the final fantasy’s and i won’t argue that ffvII isn’t the best, but in my opinion the only thing that can touch ffVII would be ffVI…</B>
That doesn’t make any sense at all, or maybe I just don’t understand it because you aren’t explaining yourself that good.
<B>and ffVII did make you think so dunno what your talking about. maybe you didnt get the full plot?</B>
See my previous statement about the storyline. And if all you can say is "FFVII DID MAKE YOU THINK", and not provide reasoning to why it does, then don’t even bother to debate this with me.
<B>the materia system is UNIQUE. most characters learn magic and that limits who can use waht</B>
It may be unique, but I think that’s what made it really bad.
<B>and as for one character cna use every skill in the game…it’s not like it’s easy to get that! You have to master ALL the materia in the game…that’s like 100 materia! Thats maddd AP … it would take quite a while, even while fighting the pots in the crater, as well as using clouds apocalypse.</B>
Too bad that all this useless crap is totally unnecessary to finish the game…
<B>and as for the storyline…it’s ingenius. Pure geniosity. If this gamae isn’t good then i dunno what WAS good!</B>
I come up with a far better explanation about the storyline than "IT’S INGENIUS". I’m sorry, but try again when you are able to say more than two words to back up your claim.
<I>Originally posted by FF1WithAllThieves</I>
<B>Some of your statements were incomprehensible, but at least you gave reasons for liking the game. Besides me, you’re the first person to do that in months.</B>
You just basically admitted that you haven’t read much of the thread. It’s true that people rarely defend FFVII, and thanks for saying it yourself.
the materia system was great, because it was the first system that actually made sense! It took a toll on your character; if it was magic materia then it took away from physical stats! Summons were jacked magic skills so obviously they took more of a toll. Some of the summons had side effects…ex: Phoenix, Hades. What materia was is also kind of cool. It’s mako energy solidified…so in a sense the planet creates it’s own threats. Sephiroth uses the black materia to threaten the planet as we all know…and the storyline…but wahtever im on materia
the enemy skill materia, known as blue magic, was really cool too! it could be interchangable and big guard, white wind, and a few others were really quite useful!
there were some cool combinations with materia, and a lot of the materia combinations had effects that were vital to beating the weapons: i.e. final attack + phoenix and revive.
also the materia was directly linked with your wepaons and armor due to how much yuo could hold and the growth! That was cool; that certain weapons and armor could alter how your materia developed which was cool…
also one character could learn many differnt types of magic, and not just specilize in one field… for instance in other FF’s, a character could only learn whatever magic that he as a person could learn. You couldnt learn magic from another person! In Final fantasy 7 if one person mastered the fire magic, it doesnt mean that only he can use all its wonder!
as for the master magic’s being a waste of time and not worth it to beat the game? Yeah well, in most games sidequests are not neded to beat the game! I dont need KoR to beat the game, but it’s still just one more thing that makes it easier and more fun. Maybe your all aobut just beating the game for the sake of it?
i play to have fun. Thanks…jerk.
the materia system was great, because it was the first system that actually made sense! It took a toll on your character; if it was magic materia then it took away from physical stats! Summons were jacked magic skills so obviously they took more of a toll. Some of the summons had side effects…ex: Phoenix, Hades.
And how did previous systems not make sense? And even if they didn’t, how is the materia system great just because it made sense? Something can make sense and still suck.
I hated the materia for the reason that it devalued most of the characters. What does it matter who you use if they can all do anything? Thus, all you need to finish the game is 3 characters. The system was a total cop-out, giving Square fewer things they had to polish so they could get the game out faster.
What materia was is also kind of cool. It’s mako energy solidified…so in a sense the planet creates it’s own threats. Sephiroth uses the black materia to threaten the planet as we all know…and the storyline…but wahtever im on materia
That sounds like a great glaring plot hole to me. If the planet sees to its own safety, why the hell does it create something capable of devastating it?
the enemy skill materia, known as blue magic, was really cool too! it could be interchangable and big guard, white wind, and a few others were really quite useful!
Nothing special or unique there. How many other games have used blue magic? At least with the others, you typically had a specific character who used it, giving them their own niche in the game, instead of anyone being able to use it and making it cheap.
there were some cool combinations with materia, and a lot of the materia combinations had effects that were vital to beating the weapons: i.e. final attack + phoenix and revive.
So? Beating all the weapons isn’t necessary to finish the game. The only ones you really have to fight can be beaten without that stuff. Also, the lack of high-level content was a serious flaw. The only things the game offers that are harder than the final boss are the ruby and emerald weapons, which require a ridiculously high level. There’s no challenge that allows you to work up to that level. You just have to keep walking over things that are far weaker than you. Boring.
also the materia was directly linked with your wepaons and armor due to how much yuo could hold and the growth! That was cool; that certain weapons and armor could alter how your materia developed which was cool…
I would hardly call that ingenious. Some form of limiting is necessary. Without it, this already easy game would be impossible to lose.
also one character could learn many differnt types of magic, and not just specilize in one field… for instance in other FF’s, a character could only learn whatever magic that he as a person could learn. You couldnt learn magic from another person! In Final fantasy 7 if one person mastered the fire magic, it doesnt mean that only he can use all its wonder!
I addressed this earlier. It devalues the individual characters, making only the overall strength of the party important. Just like communism.
as for the master magic’s being a waste of time and not worth it to beat the game? Yeah well, in most games sidequests are not neded to beat the game! I dont need KoR to beat the game, but it’s still just one more thing that makes it easier and more fun. Maybe your all aobut just beating the game for the sake of it?
Does someone need to be any different? What’s wrong with playing a game just for fun and not obsessing about doing every tiniest little thing, no matter how boring it is achieving it? You’re sounding pretty elitist.
Thanks…jerk.
By insulting him and showing yourself to be a hostile and uncivil punk, you’ve thrown away any credibility you might have had and have further reinforced the bad image of FFVII fans. Thanks for making our work easier… jerk.
and by saying that the entire game is easy you suggest that everythign in the game is easy…as for having to get to a ridiculously high level to get to be able to beat the weapons, that’s where those who hvae the patience and care enough to fight them and see what they get come in. Those who want to do all the sidequests can…
many games have unneeded sidequests, like I said. Mastering the materia system is one of them…it’s optional
the reason i liked enemy skill magic as opposed to the blue magic is because i like to level up different characters, and try to get all my characters at a reasonably high level…i wouldnt want to have to get all the magic over again….
it’s what I enjoy. To be able to pass on that characteristics from one persno to the next.
and most final fantasys ARE easy…if you know what to do. i can’t name a final fantasy where i’d be stuck when i knew what i had to do.
and most of the times it IS the optional sidequest that is hard. Example: ruby/emerald weapons, chocobo breeding…
okay now to go into chocobo’s
the chocobo system was great in this game…maybe i just think they’re cool >>
anywho, i really have always liked chocobos, and thought that they were just really neat. And the fact that you can breed chocobos and personalize them ( to an extent anyway ) and that you need them to get secret materia (Quadra magic, hp<>mp, KoR, mime ) is really neat. The chocobo system was great
the Fmv’s in this game was great…for it’s time anyway. Now the fmv sequence graphics are like final fantasy X/X-2’s in game graphics! Actually the in-game graphics are better because they’re more realistic but…
the one thing i have to say i really didn’t like about final fantasy 7 was the lack of that dramatization. Well actually it depends..
i never liked aerith (or aeris for those who want to clobber me.. ) anyway…she was weak, her magic wasn’t better than anyone elses, and her limit breaks were all basically the same damn thing….healing! Her level 4 limit break wasn’t worth it at all to get. Not worth my time.
oh and there’s one more thing i didn’t like. I have to say i strongly disagreed with Tifa lying to cloud the whole storyline…that was kinda of wierd, there would have been so many more problems…but w/e
i thought that our main character being a failure was great. It was a total twist finding out that he was a low rank nobody, and that his friend was 1st class! And the whole nibelheim sequence (on the 3rd disk ) explains a good deal too.
They made connections too. With Aerith – Zack…and then Tifa – Zack, and then Cloud – Zack. That was cool
and i have to say characters Cid and Vincent are just amusing..
Vincent’s just like whatever and Cid is like %!&@*
oh well.. i got really off topic, but eh.
i’ll sum it up in a paragraph..
It’s what you look for in a game. I look for interchangable qualities because I hate having to use this one character just cuz i need his/her powers. Flexibility…I also seemed to enjoy the summons in this game. That was just cool…It was nothing new. I just liked the sequences, and how with Odin Choco/Mog you could get different sequences. Then again in the newer Final fantasys like FFX, there was a great Summoning idea…but i’m talking about VII. The storyline was cool, it twisted a couple of times, and then just when you think you had it, it flipped, and you meet hojo! ANd your missions in the game change…You see the development in character of … your characters. LoL…sounds wierd saying it but yeah. Cloud you see as an arrogant little dick who doesnt give for anything in the beginning, and by the end he’s emotional sensitive and wants to protect the earth and all his friends. Total twist around.
yeah, i’m done. I’m gonna get hated on…but yeahh..
** edit
also something to add. I never denied that other systems made sense. I just found the materia system more appealing to me.
By insulting him and showing yourself to be a hostile and uncivil punk, you’ve thrown away any credibility you might have had and have further reinforced the bad image of FFVII fans. Thanks for making our work easier… jerk.
Isn’t it ironic too see you final fantasy fans fighting against each others in a final fantasy forum about this final fantasy game not being good and craps like. I wouldn’t like to step up to a Jay Chou forum and start dissing him cause it makes no sense to bash something that you don’t like because you’re just wasting your time and plus his fans will start dissing oyu back. And this is the ff7 section…of course you’ll expect to see some tension going on here by bashing the game and thus people cursing each others. Men you guys are hilarious……I’ll soon fall off my chair reading you guys quarrel…..hahahahaha…….. men you guys are the best! 😀
I’m not sure who you were talking to there, but the game is really easy to beat. I think it’s harder to defeat the Weapons than it is to beat the game. I can say that the Weapons are really difficult, but that doesn’t make the game easier or harder to finish in anyway. You do not have to defeat them to beat the game, so there is no contradiction there.
<B>and by saying that the entire game is easy you suggest that everythign in the game is easy…as for having to get to a ridiculously high level to get to be able to beat the weapons, that’s where those who hvae the patience and care enough to fight them and see what they get come in. Those who want to do all the sidequests can…</B>
That really has no relevance at all. I said that the game is incredibly easy to beat, but I don’t ever recall saying everything was easy. Just because there is one thing you point out as being difficult to do in a game, doesn’t necessarily mean that the game is hard as well. I’m suggesting that the game is easy to beat, because it is. But I will not say that everything in it is easy. There is a big difference between the two, because what you are required to do to finish the game is rather simple to accomplish, IMO.
<B>many games have unneeded sidequests, like I said. Mastering the materia system is one of them…it’s optional</B>
Yes, I will definately admit that. But I’m not critiquing these other games, I’m only going after FFVII right now. If I was doing this same thing to another game, and if it had irrelevant side-quests, I would point those out as well. And with mastering the Materia, I think it takes way too long, and you have to wonder around the environment and fight too many random encounters. By the time you would be finished with mastering the Materia, you would be ridicuously stronger, and you would be guaranteed to finish the game; Although it’s still relatively easy to beat the game without doing this or leveling up much.
<B>and most final fantasys ARE easy…if you know what to do. i can’t name a final fantasy where i’d be stuck when i knew what i had to do.</B>
If you recall, FFVII was basically the first in the series to offer a Strategy guide with the game. Meaning, there is no way that you would not be able to finish the game. You don’t need to even glance at it for a second, but Square still decided for some reason to release it with the game. FFVI is harder to finish than FFVII, and so is FFIV. Yeah, you can still finish these two games without the strategy guide, but it was a lot harder to do so than FFVII.
<B>anywho, i really have always liked chocobos, and thought that they were just really neat. And the fact that you can breed chocobos and personalize them ( to an extent anyway ) and that you need them to get secret materia (Quadra magic, hp<>mp, KoR, mime ) is really neat. The chocobo system was great</B>
I’ve never really had a problem with Chocobos myself, but I just absolutely hate how they were used and incorporated into the game. It takes way too long to be able to breed a Gold Chocobo. I mean, when I finally got a Mountain and River Chocobo, they both came out male. So, I just wasted several hours doing a bunch of nothing. It’s like Square intentionally allowed for that mistake to happen on purpose, just because the game play time would increase a few hours, thus furthering the image that it is a good game.
<B>the Fmv’s in this game was great…for it’s time anyway. Now the fmv sequence graphics are like final fantasy X/X-2’s in game graphics! Actually the in-game graphics are better because they’re more realistic but…</B>
That’s just the point. You are saying that the FMV’s were great when the game came out, but are no longer that because of superior ones in the most recent Final Fantasy games.
<B>i never liked aerith (or aeris for those who want to clobber me.. ) anyway…she was weak, her magic wasn’t better than anyone elses, and her limit breaks were all basically the same damn thing….healing! Her level 4 limit break wasn’t worth it at all to get. Not worth my time.</B>
Aeris is an overrated character, there is no doubt about it. And the whole point of her was to be a healing character. That is just the way she was added to the game.
<B>i thought that our main character being a failure was great. It was a total twist finding out that he was a low rank nobody, and that his friend was 1st class! And the whole nibelheim sequence (on the 3rd disk ) explains a good deal too.</B>
I’ll admit that the way Cloud was conceived was a failure, but I don’t think it was great. I don’t see how something like this adds something good to the game. Or maybe I just prefer to have the main character worry more about the task at hand, instead of his friends worrying about whether or not he will be able to escape La La Land.
<B>They made connections too. With Aerith – Zack…and then Tifa – Zack, and then Cloud – Zack. That was cool</B>
Yes, there was stuff about this, but they really did a poor job with finishing all of it.
You’re just bashing us for bashing the game. You’re not trying to make any points at all. And when you say I’m contradicting myself, you don’t offer any example of this. You seem to be completely incapable of arguing your point of view. You’re just bitching at us because you can’t compete. Cheese goes well with whine.
And yes, we would shred anything you say because this a debate. Do you know what a debate is?
By the way, the "truths" you speak of are most likely the same mere opinions that we’ve been rebuking all this time.
Now go play with the kiddies on the "Who would you be?" threads and leave the arguing to the grown-ups.
Edit: Nastradamusx, Smokey addressed most of what you said, but I have a couple quick points. First, remember this?
the materia system was great, because it was the first system that actually made sense!
You did say that the other systems didn’t make sense.
Secondly, the FFVII fmvs were inferior to another, less known game that came out on the same day. It was called Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain. In all technical aspects, its fmvs were superior. Higher framerate, higher polygon count, larger color pallette, you name it. I won’t say they weren’t good for their time, but they’re definitely not great.
Actually, this thread wasn’t started by people, but rather by just a single person who really doesn’t care about this one anymore.
<B>Honestly. Is there anything before FFVII that is truly superior, or do you just hate it for some reason?</B>
Yes, in fact there is. I think both FFIV and FFVI are both superior than FFVII. Since I believe that both of these games are better than this one, that would automatically mean that they are IMO superior to this game. Also, I think I’ve very well described why I hate the game time and time again.
<B>I’ve read this stupid thread. It repeats itself, and every time one perfectly good, reasonable point is made, it is often responded to with an absurd, unprovable point.</B>
Ha ha, notice how he says it’s a stupid thread because we are bashing a game he likes! I just find that hilarious. I mean seriously, it is rather hysterical to see how FFVII fans react when someone says something bad about the game they love. I do not see this with any other game. It’s gotten to a level of being straight ridiculous with FFVII. Also, notice how a vast majority of the good reasonable points are made by us, instead of the fans that claim the game to be so great? And then, these good points are very often responded to by FFVII fans with absurd, unprovable points? Believe it or not, that’s the truth.
<B>No one’s going to change their mind about the game because of this thread, unless they’re asswipes who want to fit in somewhere.</B>
I know that my views of the game changed a little when I started reading the thread. Granted, I still didn’t think the game was that great at the time, but I now have more reason to believe that FFVII is not that good of a game from reading all my posts and others like it. So I guess you are calling me an asswipe because my view of the game has changed. It’s not really that it changed, but rather strengthened. Also, somewhere in this thread, I recall someone saying that their view of the game changed after reading through here.
<B>So, what’s your goal here? Just to bash the game pointlessly?</B>
I know you are probably asking Prak that, but since him and I are together on this, I can still answer this like you are talking to me as well. I’m not trying to bash the game pointlessly. But, it has been close to that ever since the thread opened. With the exception of Durendal, he is pretty much the only one giving a respectable debate, AND he isn’t overreacting about the whole situation. My goal is to show my opinions of the game, and when someone agrees otherwise, I try to have a debate with them. That’s what people do in a debate; they don’t agree on the same subject, so they try to see who has the stronger points.
<B>I’d give my explanation as to why FFVII is AWESOME, but all you would do is stick it up your ass then claim that every point I make, no matter how true it is, is invalid because of the shit you make up.</B>
I’ll interpret that as:
There isn’t much I can say against these two guys, so I’ll pretend to have an explanation so I won’t have to look like an idiot when I can’t come up with something credible.
If that’s not true, then let’s see this explanation of yours. Seems like most of the FFVII fans who have posted in here bash us a little bit, say we are wrong, and then never return because they don’t want their feelings to be hurt. I’m not saying that you can’t come up with something good, but until I actually see it, then I will say that you don’t have anything useful to say.
Nabeshin, if you’re just praising the game for the sake of it start a new thread…but this is to debate the good aspects and bad aspects of the game.
As for the chocobo thing smoey, i totally hear you. it took me almost 4 horus to breed a gold chocobo! Well, it’s worth the effort (because chocobos rule!) But other than that, yes it is one of the most annoying sidequests ever.
but had emerald and ruby weapon been EASY…i dont think i would have enjoyed much of the game
yes the game is very easy to beat, but like i said before, the sidequests are nice and hard. That’s what i look foward to in the game to be quite honest…Gold saucer, Chocobos, Master materia, and the Weapons, and perhaps some of the limit breaks (Highwind, Chaos, Omnislash…)
Well, to say yet another bit, i believe they released the walkthrough because other people were getting credit off of their game. If you know what I mean, other people were making walkthroughs and being credited for making it of previous games. Example, if you type in Final Fantasy VI Walkthrough, you’ll get hundreds of walkthroughs…They just decided to make yet another friggen money gimmick, but hey blame squaresoft for that one.
and the walkthrough idea was good in my opinion. You know, there are those who can’t really play the game without a walkthrough…some people want to learn every secret without a walkthrough. It was just offered; it wasn’t forced onto you. You didn’t have to buy it if ya didn’t want to..
I’m going to show you yet more views on my materia system arguement though…
The materia system was unique. Yes you will respond saying Just cuz its unique doesnt mean its good. But it actually was good. It wasn’t the same damn thing learn magic as you go along. It wasn’t like someone was SPECIAL for their magic…all in all just about anybody could use magic. It wasn’t limited…I hated especially in Final Fantasy 9 ( i know im jumping ahead but.. ) where only Garnett and that lil chick could use summons. That PISSED ME OFF, cuz my favorite team was: Zidane, Freya, and Vivi
but noo…oh well. that summoner shit in Final Fantasy X worked well because, although only one person could use it, it took the place of your whole party…It was yet again different. and it worked. Same thing in FFX-2.
in FFVIII ( which in my opinion was ehh… ) the ummons were quite close to waht they are in FFVII. FFVII was the different version..
okay imma finish this post up cuz my teachers comin around to check what we’ve been doin ( never trust high school kids. )
The strategy guide was released to bring in as much money as possible for the game. I mean, when people heard about the fact that you could buy a book to help you with the game, it made more people want to go out and purchase both items. Basically, more money for Square, and also more popularity for the game.
<B>and the walkthrough idea was good in my opinion. You know, there are those who can’t really play the game without a walkthrough…some people want to learn every secret without a walkthrough. It was just offered; it wasn’t forced onto you. You didn’t have to buy it if ya didn’t want to..</B>
But I’m just saying, that you do not need a walkthrough to finish the game. Even so, there aren’t any huge rewards that I found necessary to use the strategy guide for. Also, whether you remember or not, or actually experienced it, the strategy guide was almost forced upon you with the game. When I went in to buy the game, which was shortly after it was released, the clerks were constantly asking if I wanted to buy the game and the strategy guide. When I finally picked up a copy of the game, that is the only thing I wanted to buy. But when I got to the counter, the clerk would ask me several times if I wanted to buy the strategy guide as well. Now I know that sometimes the clerks will ask you about purchasing the strategy guide with the game, but it seemed like it was their absolute mission to sell the guide also no matter what.
<B>The materia system was unique. Yes you will respond saying Just cuz its unique doesnt mean its good. But it actually was good. It wasn’t the same damn thing learn magic as you go along. It wasn’t like someone was SPECIAL for their magic…all in all just about anybody could use magic.</B>
Read my previous comment about the Materia System in the huge post.
You’ve made my day. I won’t bite you, however, because I’ve heard that the stupidity of you prepubescent AOLer types can be contagious.
Be sure to put me close to the top of your list because I not only say that FFVII sucks ass, but also that you are one of the most pathetic examples of drooling idiocy ever to cross my path.
But I’ll make one last detailed explanation about the game before I give up trying to explain those who are not ready to change their views.
Alright You all claim the materia system is wack. I hold different values for what ‘magic’ is. This is yet the first game to explain what magic is and provide and explanation.
To further that point, it is also the first game to offer an explanation to why there are monsters. Still the first game of course.
Now, after making things someone logical although not real, it creates a world that’s more diverse. Games at the time had many towns but many of them were the same. Most of them were just rnadom towns. This did not hold true for Final Fantasy 7.
it was way more diverse in that sense: For example Wutai represented a more japanese state of mind obviously, and heavily emphasized fighting. Materia … hence yuffie.
Then you had Cosmo Canyon which was what we would call more of a college. It was a place to interact with the earth more mentally and spiritually and to gain wisdom and knowledge of the earth..hence Red XIII
Then you had Midgar. That was the city type city with rebellions and a tyrannical government. Shinra. From there you had your plot twist insanely.. At first your mission was to get money. Through many twists your at the end of the game with saving the world. Much character development. Oh yeah the cities!
Costa Del Sol…A vacation resort type city. It was rather interesting, as you could buy your own house ( which was rathe rpointless, but at the end of the game most of us had around 3,000,000 gil, so what the hell!)
Then you had Bone Village. Excavation. Anyway yuo get the point!
so the whole set up of the WORLD was nice. It was cool…You had full control of the camera angles. Nice 3-D.
Now in the game you weren’t limited to just the gronud. There was Rivers, Under the Ocean, ON the ocean, In the Air, and on the ground! You could cover mountains…simply beautiful.
Now as I understand there was another game with improved graphics at the time. But from what i’ve heard the actual gameplay was not nearly as good as Final Fantasy 7. Final Fantasy 7 Also has a replay factor. You can replay it…and still like it. As well as uncover new secrets and learn new things.
To add to that, there were lots of sidequests. That comes standard with any half-decent game though. Know what I mean?
And the character failure was nice. I was rather impressed that they would take that big of a risk (Creators of FF7) and makae Cloud nothing but a failure and a clone
the fact that sephiroth had access was neat too. It helped story development a lot.
And the idea of Sephiroth was just nice. He started off good leader of Soldier. But he learned about who he is. i liked it!
anywho i’m off. See ya later!
That’s a pretty radical statement. That implies that FFVII is worse than Kings of the Beach, which is a volleyball game for NES that has very few controls and can be fun for all of 5 minutes.
However, I will go ahead and assume you were exaggerating.
More than one of you have more or less said that the materia system devalued the characters. True, it took away the uniqueness of character abilities, but it enabled me to select my characters the way I always wanted to: how much I like them. I thought RedXIII was really cool, and I got to use him for no reason other than that. I’m not saying that made FFVII a better game or anything, but I find it forgiveable. And if you compare the materia system to FFIX’s system, which forces you to equip weak piece of crap weapons and armor until you learn abilities, it really isn’t that bad. I know that it’s still possible for you not to like it, and you have good reasons not to like it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a bad system. Plus, as I said earlier, some games are only as fun as you make them. RPGs just aren’t meant for you to go through and do nothing but go through the plot and beat the game. You’re supposed to explore voluntarily and look for stuff to do outside the plot. If you play FFVII that way, then it’s not so much of a mundane, easy game. Finally, I really think the one thing that kills FFVII’s story is the ending. It just didn’t tie up enough loose ends. I still am not quite sure if your whole quest was a big waste of time or not. But what you (Smokey) said about the plot just being a straight line, I just disagree with. What about the two times when Cloud gives Sephiroth the black materia? Is that not a "bump" in the storyline? (no, that is NOT a rhetorical question; I want someone to answer it) Even if FFVII wasn’t the best game ever made by any means, I still think it was at least a decent game. Oh and to all of you FFVII die hard fans, please stop the name-calling. It really makes it hard for me to express a point with you shouting "YOU ARE STUPID IT IS A GOOD GAME!!!!!"
However, I will go ahead and assume you were exaggerating."
Please tell me you are joking? That post was direct sarcasm at the one SageNashae made previously.
I presume that when you mentioned another game that had better graphics but inferior gameplay, you’re referring to my earlier statement about the superior FMVs in Blood Omen. Its gameplay was very different than FFVII’s because there is no transition into battle, you maintain full motion, and it maintains tactical depth. I would not call it inferior in any way. Not to mention the fact that it had 100 secrets hidden in the world that could take a very long time to find. I’ve even heard reports that the main storyline alone can take 100+ hours to finish. I don’t know about that for sure because I have yet to finish it. It’s not really a game that you replay, but one that you spend a very, very long time playing.
Another thing that was better about Blood Omen is how you could go back to the menu and view the FMVs you’ve already seen. I really suggest you try to find that game, play it for a few days, and then tell me which you think is better. Frankly, I can’t think of a single way FFVII tops it.
The weapons were not hard to beat.
Getting to the point that you could beat them was nothing more than a timesink. It required no skill. It required monotonous levelling. That’s it.
The weapons were not hard to beat.
Getting to the point that you could beat them was nothing more than a timesink. It required no skill. It required monotonous levelling. That’s it.
Nice point.
Oh…. Sorry, didn’t see that one. My bad.
Just because a game reaches the "Greatest Hits" status doesn’t mean that it is necessarily a great/good game. There are a lot of games that have reached this status, and most are better than FFVII IMO.
I presume that when you mentioned another game that had better graphics but inferior gameplay, you’re referring to my earlier statement about the superior FMVs in Blood Omen. Its gameplay was very different than FFVII’s because there is no transition into battle, you maintain full motion, and it maintains tactical depth. I would not call it inferior in any way. Not to mention the fact that it had 100 secrets hidden in the world that could take a very long time to find. I’ve even heard reports that the main storyline alone can take 100+ hours to finish. I don’t know about that for sure because I have yet to finish it. It’s not really a game that you replay, but one that you spend a very, very long time playing.
Another thing that was better about Blood Omen is how you could go back to the menu and view the FMVs you’ve already seen. I really suggest you try to find that game, play it for a few days, and then tell me which you think is better. Frankly, I can’t think of a single way FFVII tops it.
Yes, but, that’s hardly fair. Since Blood Omen pwns all. 😀
It’s official.
This is the most pathetic statement I’ve heard about FFVII being a good game.
Did you even read my first post?
This is the most pathetic statement I’ve heard about FFVII being a good game.
I disagree. I think TifaMartialArtist said some more pathetic things. Remember, she called you stupid and kept repeating that it made the most money. Well, it’s a close race. They both had atrocious grammar. "there fault" …..
But as I already said in another thread: Games like Valkyrie Profile, Legend of Legaia, Legend of Dragoon and Star Ocean 2: The Second Story all pwn the living hell out of FF7.
🙁
Seriously, people need to just wake up.
Ok, so that’s your opinion. Now, let’s see you come up with some evidence or some good information to back up your statement, instead of just saying it’s the greatest and then running away.
When are people going to realize this thread isn’t about whether they like FFVII or not. It’s about whether it’s good or not. Just stating what you like about it is not making a case for quality, thus it makes for useless posts.
OK, Smokey, cool it a bit, OK.
FFVII is not the best game ever, but it’s my favorite(^_^).
When are people going to realize this thread isn’t about whether they like FFVII or not. It’s about whether it’s good or not. Just stating what you like about it is not making a case for quality, thus it makes for useless posts.
Yup, exactly. Judged by today’s standards, FFVII sucks, but I still like it alot. It’s a great game for me, no matter what anyone says. ^_^ FFVII rules.
Thank ya. BTW, don’t flame me for this because it’s what I think and no one has to share this opinion with me.
FF7 was an experiment for Squaresoft, they were working on a new system, with new graphics, so a complete re-design of everything would have been an enourmous task, that is why i believe the comand interface is the same as the earlier FF’s.
Yes the limit system does have the one downside mentioned in the first post, and in ff6 the desperation attack was simillar, but the idea of using the damage recieved to power a ‘ super’ attack i think was new and innoative ( i cannot think of any other game at that time that used this principle)
As for the Music, i think it comes down to preference again, but i have to stress this FF7 was on a new system and a totaly different format for Squaresoft (CD, not Cartridge)
And for the materia system, it was designed to make your characters more versatile, so that you could either split the ‘jobs’ ( healer, summoner etc..) between your party or have each one able to hold their own if the other 2 were Ko’d
Ok so the story wasn’t perfect, but i’ll say again FF7 was an experiment for a new system, possibly an unfinished experiment ( I have heard that FF7 was delayed twice). and there are weaker storylines (ff8/ff9)
Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?
as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)
So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.
Although this is now my opininon, if Square had launced FF8 instead of FF7, I would not have bought another Final Fantasy ever…
FF7 was an experiment for Squaresoft, they were working on a new system, with new graphics, so a complete re-design of everything would have been an enourmous task, that is why i believe the comand interface is the same as the earlier FF’s.
Yes the limit system does have the one downside mentioned in the first post, and in ff6 the desperation attack was simillar, but the idea of using the damage recieved to power a ‘ super’ attack i think was new and innoative ( i cannot think of any other game at that time that used this principle)
As for the Music, i think it comes down to preference again, but i have to stress this FF7 was on a new system and a totaly different format for Squaresoft (CD, not Cartridge)
And for the materia system, it was designed to make your characters more versatile, so that you could either split the ‘jobs’ ( healer, summoner etc..) between your party or have each one able to hold their own if the other 2 were Ko’d
Ok so the story wasn’t perfect, but i’ll say again FF7 was an experiment for a new system, possibly an unfinished experiment ( I have heard that FF7 was delayed twice). and there are weaker storylines (ff8/ff9)
Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?
as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)
So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.
Although this is now my opininon, if Square had launced FF8 instead of FF7, I would not have bought another Final Fantasy ever…
Well said, Kemtach2999.
I don’t know about you, but games are a lot more enjoyable for me when they are too hard instead of too easy. And that point about FFVIII has absolutely nothing to do with FFVII. If Square had decided to make FFVII ‘too hard’, then that wouldn’t keep people from playing FFVIII.
as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)
No, it isn’t a defining moment watching the blade go through her back. She didn’t even see it coming. There is nothing spectacular about that. It’s not like there were anvils or whatever waiting to crush the heads of Cloud and friends if Aeris didn’t rush in and sacrifice her life. Palom and Porom <B>had</B> to commit suicide or else all six of them would have perished.
So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.
How many times do I have to tell you guys; FFVII did not bring the Final Fantasy series into the future. The Playstation did, it’s that simple. And the only ‘merits’ you have stated, is that FFVII was an experiment, and that the Materia System was versatile.
Well, they already knew that the Final Fantasy series was a hit, so why wouldn’t a complete re-design on a better system work? And most of the interface stays the same throughout the games otherwise the games wouldn’t be like Final Fantasy. Thats a classic part of the series and the completely new materia system and many other features worked as well.
Yes the limit system does have the one downside mentioned in the first post, and in ff6 the desperation attack was simillar, but the idea of using the damage recieved to power a ‘ super’ attack i think was new and innoative ( i cannot think of any other game at that time that used this principle)
This WAS a good idea and there wasn’t another game that used this at the time (not that I can think anyway) but the only other gaem that I know that uses this system is Dynasty Warriors 2 on the PS2 which was released in 2000. So thats 3 years later!
As for the Music, i think it comes down to preference again, but i have to stress this FF7 was on a new system and a totaly different format for Squaresoft (CD, not Cartridge)
Well music is the same for anything, its up to the listener if they like it, but there was a different range of music in the game.
And for the materia system, it was designed to make your characters more versatile, so that you could either split the ‘jobs’ ( healer, summoner etc..) between your party or have each one able to hold their own if the other 2 were Ko’d
Yeah, but it was a bit more developed than the simple job system introduced in FFV and later in FFX-2, because you could FULLY customise your character and once you have all the materia customize them to however you want and not have to choose from a preset job list as in FFV.
Ok so the story wasn’t perfect, but i’ll say again FF7 was an experiment for a new system, possibly an unfinished experiment ( I have heard that FF7 was delayed twice). and there are weaker storylines (ff8/ff9)
This subject has been discussed a lot before, but as well all know the story is unfinished in places and could have been touched up, but I suppose Square might have left it like that for you to make ur own mind up, hence triggering a whole load of topics in forums such as these!
Yes the game was easy enough to complete with out the walk-thru, however if Square had made the game too hard, would anyone have wanted to play ff8?
The game was easy enough to complete without the guide if you jsut simply stuck to the story. But there is no way that you could manage all the secrets without a guide, because how would you know how to breed a gold chocobo without the use of a guide, as constant breeding over and over is enough to drive anyone mad.
And as for wanting to play FF8, I would always try it, even if the game was hard because I like the challenge, but thats my personal view.
as for the death of Aeris, yes it was a defining moment, you say that in FFIV Palom and Porom cast stone on themsevles but they still come back at the end. Aeris/aerith died, for good, there was no special spell or secret item to bring her back, and to the best of my knowlege no other FF has done anything like that before (permanently killed a hero)
Yes, but her death was vital for the story to progress and Hironobu Sakaguchi introduced this in the game as his mother died during the making of FF6. And no, no other FF game has done this, except Tidus I suppose in FFX.
So for all its flaws FF7 had alot of merits, and it brought the ff series into the future, giving it a new fanbase and allowing the name Final Fantasy to continue.
Although this is now my opininon, if Square had launced FF8 instead of FF7, I would not have bought another Final Fantasy ever…
I agree compeltely. Hell, I probably wouldn’t have even joined these forums or even launched MY site.
Sorry Im not saying it wouldn’t work, i just think all things considering there was too much work for Squaresoft to do to get the game released
as for hard over easy, yes I prefer a more challenging game, however im saying if it was too hard, like there was no possible way to beat even Jenova birth without an xplorer cheat cartridge, then perhaps gamers would have been put off FF8, im not saying everyone would ( hardcore FF fans or just hardcore Gamers would have given 8 a chance) just a lot of potential buyers
Yes, I am fangirl of that game too, and of Sephiroth. But that doesn’t make me biased. If you wanna flame at me, then you’ll get a whole load back.
I like FF7 for these reasons:
Gameplay, graphics, storyline, characters.
Let’s put these into subheadings.
Gameplay.
Yes it was simple. But good, and you could choose what magic would suit your character best. You could only equip a certain amount to each character, but that didn’t matter to me. Every character was different, and had good limit breaks- Cloud’s were strong, not to mention Vincents- Aeris’ was basically to heal characters. Summons were good for that game as well. I never got round to using KOTR because I simply didn’t want to get hold of it.
Graphics
First game of the series hm? Done well for graphics in its time. Summon sequences looked good, though the quality of the FMV’s I wasn’t too keen ( Ooh, something I didn’t like!. You see, I ain’t biased after all xD )
Storyline
People complain about the storyline being simple. They all follow the same thing – love, war, fight a super powered enemy. So why complain?
I like the storyline because I felt that it touched my heart in some places ( I hated how the people of Midgar lived, it’s like a 3rd world country on a videogame. Each place and character all had something worthwhile that contributed to the storyline to make it that bit better.
Characters
I hated Yuffie, and not every character was useful to me. Each character had their own unique personality, all based probably on past events. A variation of characters made this game just a little bit better.
There, Im done.
ooooh you’re gonna get flamed…FFVI was definitely Final Fantasy at it’s peak, not FFVII. It’s story was better than FFVII’s, the magic system was better too…I don’t think I should even have to explain myself…
lol, yea the sack was intentional, thought it would be funny, but ah….nm, u probably thought it was stupid instead.
I have never owned a strategy guide for Final Fantasy VII. I borrowed one once, I just checked to make sure I got everything…So I actually played through the entire game without a guide…I tried everything I could to get everything without it…
Thank ya. BTW, don’t flame me for this because it’s what I think and no one has to share this opinion with me.
Not flaming you or anything, but I think video games in general have been going DOWNhill for the past few years. I doubt any of you will agree, but my favorite battle system was FF1’s. I thought it was a nice challenge to have to think about ineffectives rather than just hitting A rapidly. Of course, FFIV and FFVI absolutely destroy FF1 in other categories, such as plot, characterization, and ability to buy more than 1 item at once, but I think even since FF1 Square has begun to lose some of its more fun characteristics of games. In my opinion, FF1 was the only FF that was hard enough.
Was that in reply to me?
No. It was to Slavic Wolfram. You musy have posted right before me.
*know*
Oh well, minor flaw in the game…at least my girly and I can play it together…(she likes the game alot)
I dunno, I jus added it……
Also i liked the lifestream concept, that when something dies it becomes part of the lifestream and brings life to another being. I also liked how Shinra were heartless enough to refine it into Mako energy. That really pissed me off! Harvesting the dead for the sake of power!
Also, FF7 had possibly the coolest antagonist ever! (Altho his goal was kinda cliche’) Also ff7 had an awesome Cid!
I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)
I’ve played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)
I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)
I’ve played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)
these are the type of posts that make me agree with chorns and prak
I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)
I’ve played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)
please shut up your fanboy rambles, oh yeah…FFIII was really good too…not quite as good as VI, but I enjoyed trying to get a fully equipped onion knight(it was hard though).
I LOVE this game. =)
THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER. =)
Coolest boss music. =)
Coolest boss =)
Coolest characters =)
Coolest story =)
ITS COOL =)
I’ve played FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8 FF9, FF10, FF10-2
and 7 is the best.
One thing though, does FF3 exist in the uk cos i cant find it. =)
I love it when these fanboy twerps make moronic posts like this because it completely reinforces everything I’ve been saying.
Ok maybe i over did it but it is a good game.
Try to be a little lighter on me ok? 🙁
Cloud has a sword that is unweldly and looks like a bucher knife ha!
Cloud has a sword that is unweldly and looks like a bucher knife ha!
Video games aren’t supposed to be realistic. I’m sure you all remember perhaps the greatest moment in video game history, in FFIV, when Cid jumps of the airship and blows himself up and still survives somehow. I think THAT was the most awesome Cid.
No, sorry, that isn’t the greatest moment in video game history. I wouldn’t even call it a moment, because there was nothing memorable. And if you remember correctly, Yang does the same thing. He seals a door shut in order to stop the Dwarves from being bombed on, and gets bombarded himself. The main thing that are supposed to be realistic in video games these days are the graphics, but that’s a different subject.
Ok, I’m really messed up, so IN MY OPINION it is the greatest moment in video game history. And yes, Yang blew himself up too, but he didn’t fall thousands of feet afterwards.
CLoud: "………."
Aeris: *praying*
Cloud: "…….."
Sephiroth: *Descending*
Cloud: *dumb look on his face*
Aeris: *Clueless*
Sephiroth: STAB!!!!!!!
ffvii was so great
CLoud: "………."
Aeris: *praying*
Cloud: "…….."
Sephiroth: *Descending*
Cloud: *dumb look on his face*
Aeris: *Clueless*
Sephiroth: STAB!!!!!!!
ffvii was so great
I think FF7 is a good game, but…
I will have no sympathy for you when everyone else bombards you with proof that you are completely and utterly wrong, because it’s people like you who undermine all of my points.
CLoud: "………."
Aeris: *praying*
Cloud: "…….."
Sephiroth: *Descending*
Cloud: *dumb look on his face*
Aeris: *Clueless*
Sephiroth: STAB!!!!!!!
ffvii was so great
Why Spermie? Why?
and the fact that you are younger, it gives me the right to call you an ignorant child.
and the fact that you are younger, it gives me the right to call you an ignorant child.
are you talking to me? Cause I’m older than you, just to let you know.
that is so mean…..i’d be really hurt……if i wasn’t so cold and heartless
I like him more than Any villian Ever because he is trying to save the planet, not destroy it. Who doesn’t like Demi-God Environmental Activists?
this is the problem with the fanboy arguments. "He is trying to save the planet."…..thats its thats the argument they make. a more solid argument would be, "Sephiroth isn’t trying to destroy the planet, he’s trying to save it, because he believes…(go into detials in the game about how he thinks he’s saving the planet and such)"
Sephiroth is a villain, you are not supposed to like him…Yet people are always saying that they like Sephiroth…
I like him because he is trying to become the planet.
=/
He’s right, you know… Anyway, I don’t see why it’s really necessary to have this thread going anymore. The FFVII fanboys have pretty much proven the points against FFVII, which is deliciously ironic even though I liked FF7.
Yes, that and the fact that he carries a big pointy sword.
How’s that interesting?? That’s what alot of villains do!
well every once in a while a new FFVII fanboy will come and try to make their arguments, usually only to be shot down by prak or somoeone else, so its good to leave it open, or close just this one or the IS a good game one, and leave one of them open.
There is a big difference between Aeris, and the twins. When Palom and Porom sacrificed themselves, they <I>knew</I> that it was going to stop the wall, and thus, save their companions lives. When Aeris sacrificed herself, she didn’t <I>know</I> if her companions would even make it out of the area alive. She knew that Sephiroth was powerful and was unquestionably going to be there to try and stop them all. So, her sacrifice didn’t guarantee the party’s safety at all. Palom and Porom’s did though.
Just have to say I disagree with you there. I can’t comment on Palom & Porom, not having played that game, but, IMO, Aeris doesn’t sacrifice herself. She was killed by Sephiroth, certainly, but she definately had no idea it was going to happen until she was skewered.
To my mind, to sacrifice yourself, you have to consciously be aware that you are going to die – for example Yuna and her guardians were (prior to Tidus’ tantrums on the subject) prepared to die to bring the calm.
*edit* looking for a FFVII true sacrifice? – Cait Sith in the Temple of the Ancients. yes, a different one almost immediately appears, (worse luck!) but still!! he/she/it (delete as necessary!) died so that Cloud and Co. could retrieve the materia. Pity "ol’ yellow head" then hands it over to Sephiroth, but there ya go!
Anyhow you look at it, Cloud and the rest had a good enough reason to go after Sephiroth at that point – how about that World-destroying materia he’s just gotten Cloud to unwittingly hand over? I’d say that was a better reason to go after Sephiroth than Aeris being killed.
I absolutely hated the Materia System. Almost every materia you earn depletes your HP when you equip it, but it also grants you more abilities. So, it’s a double-edged sword really. You may be able to defeat your enemies with more ease, but they can also do the same to you.
It’s just irritating, that Materia that’s useful also has negative effects on your HP/Strength. IMO, the whole idea of learning/acquiring new skills/spells etc. should make you stronger, not make you more vulnerable.
I wholeheartedly agree with whoever’s been saying how easy the game is. It’s certainly a helluva lot less challenging, and a lot more linear/straightforward than FFVIII. I think the only two titles in the series that are possibly easier than FFVII are FFIX and X-2, both of which I was also disappointed with. But I actually felt compelled to carry on playing them through to the end (for better or worse!) to see the storyline through to the finish. I don’t have that feeling with FFVII – the only reason I’m carrying on playing is so Advent Children makes sense. Thank Christ they’re making the movie, ’cause I’ve seen the end FMV’s for the game, and, to be perfectly honest, they don’t seem to finish the story off, or explain what the characters’ lives would be like after the game ends, apart from Nanaki, who obviously has offspring however many years later.
I’m also sick and tired of all these FFVII nuts. Most of them don’t even provide explanations with why they love this game, or why they think Sephiroth is the greatest villain ever. That pisses me off more than anything.
Ditto. Maybe if I was playing the game when it first came out, my opinions would be different, but nowadays, I think FFVII’s mediocre at best, and certainly incredibly overrated.
FF7 was my first, and I will never forget all the experiences it gave me. I still have them and will therefore make me simply unjustifiably biased towards it. I agree with most of the criticisms on the first page. It has its flaws, it’s certainly not perfect. The story… is average I’d say looking at it now and comparing it to previous FFs (mind you I’ve only played VI out of the pre VII games). I’m also shallow when it comes to graphics. If VI had the same graphics as VII, I’d say VI is probably better (I say probably due to my biased first time experiences with VII). No doubt, VI is a very good game.
Some of you say that the story is linear and doesn’t require you to think. Hey, what if someone likes the game because of that? What if they like the complete customization of all characters? What if they don’t want to think too much or go out of their way to find more about the story? Does it make them have bad taste? I haven’t really thought about it to be honest. I don’t know what I like, I just know that when I like something, I like it. Probably a large part of me liking FFVII is the whole first time thing. Can I provide specific evidence and points that prove that I like it? Nope. Don’t think I can. Why? Because I can’t explain why I like something. What someone considers good, other people may think otherwise. I just know that I liked it when I played it. I haven’t bothered with thinking about whether I like it or not ever since.
X: "FF7 is the greatest game ever!"
Y: "Why do you think that?"
X: "Because of the gameplay, storyline, materia…" etc
Y: "Yeah… but they all sucked"
X: "But I liked them!"
Y: "Well I didn’t. Have you played FFI – VI? Or any other RPGs?"
X: "Yeah but I didn’t like them as much…"
Y: "Why not?
X: "Because I just didn’t like them compared to FF7."
Y: "You can’t provide any evidence can you?"
X: "There’s no point arguing! I can’t explain why I like something."
Y: "You can’t back up anything you say. FF7 nutters like you annoy me."
X: "Well I’m sorry I can’t explain why I like it, I just do!"
And er, it can just continue from there. People are different. People like different things. You can debate all the good and bad points you want. They’ll only be good and bad to you. Others may like all the points you consider bad and hate all the points you consider good.
The more pressing questions would be why you think the "evidence" you brought up makes you think the game is bad, and you simply can’t debate that without ending up accusing the others of having bad taste or some other personal remark.
Yes, there really is no point arguing. It’s not just an excuse or some scapegoat. It’s true nothing that’s being said will change anyone’s mind (or they might, depending on the circumstances on how one ended up liking or disliking the game).
Carrying on with letters:
A: "Why do you like S"
B: "Because of X, Y and Z"
A: "X, Y and Z are rubbish compared of R, T and U"
B: "That’s what you think. I think X, Y and Z are better than R, T and U"
A: "Well why do you think X, Y and Z are better than R, T and U?"
B: "Because of C, D and E"
A: "Well C, D and E are rubbish because of F, G and H, and I will back that up with points I, J and K"
B: "I will counter your I, J and K with points L, M and N"
A: "How can you like L, M and N more than I, J and K?"
B: "Because it’s what I like"
A: "Why?"
B: "Because of O, P and Q!"
Which furthers my point on why arguing is pointless. It’s simply boils down to personal preference. But continue debating, arguing and (bashing) as much as it pleases you if any of you feel it will somehow actually do something.
I remember seeing something explaining it, if I find it I will paste the link.
EdiT: Screw the link
EXPLAINING THE ENDING
Final Fantasy 7 has a VERY open ended ending as it were. This is my attempt to explain it. This is probably the hardest question to answer as much of my theory is based on supposition rather than hard facts. Even combing the script doesn’t yield much of a definite explanation. But based on what has gone before, I think this is a reasonable interpretation.
So understanding the ending depends really on how you regard the significance of the death of Aeris and the extent of the powers she and Sephiroth possessed. It also requires some thought as to the symbolism of the game and the true meaning of Midgar.
In my opinion Aeris only died in a physical sense when Sephiroth stabbed her.
She was an Ancient and possessed of tremendous powers. It is arguable that she actually wanted to die physically so her spiritual self could merge with the
lifestream and heal the planet. In fact Bugenhagen pretty much says this when they take him to the Shrine where she was killed.
Bugenhagen: "Holy… the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand again Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear."
Sephiroth’s physical body spends the WHOLE game in the great North Cave. It is only his psychic self our heroes encounter until the end. Sephiroth’s plan was to use meteor to inflict a wound upon the planet, the life stream would rush to that spot, he would absorb it all and become godlike.
Once Sephiroth dies at the end, Meteor heads for Midgar. Midgar is arguably the "wound" of the planet all along. Characters throughout the game talk of the cries of the planet growing stronger in the years Midgar/Shinra have been
sucking Mako out of the planet. Remember early in the game the only place that flowers grow in Midgar is in Aeris church. With the glimpse of Aeris we see in the final moments it is implied that her consciousness had merged with the life stream and the combined power of Holy and Meteor generates enough force for the corruption of Midgar to be healed.
This is maybe what the ancients meant by the Promised Land, a place where the life stream and the physical world meet and create paradise. So again arguably Aeris does "reincarnate" at the end as we see Midgar ablaze with flowers. She undoubtedly had the power to live on is a non-physical form, and maybe that what Cloud meant when he says, "I think we can see her again" in the final cinema."
[Edit] That might be the case for most people, but like I said, it just ends up depending on what one would like. No mattter what facts there may be about those games, some people just won’t like them. There really is no best or worst. Hence, arguing is pointless.
So what if people happen to prefer a linear storyline. If they like a linear storyline where they don’t have to find things out for themselves, then that’s what they like. So therefore, to them it makes it a good game.
I’ve seen the defences given for FF7, and they’ve been replied to with people’s own experience of the game and what they thought of it, and that’s their opinion of it. The person giving the defence likes the game because of that, but they can’t explain why they like it. You can’t explain specifically why you don’t like it, you just happen to like certain things more than other things.
All the "hard facts" about game quality apply, whether they make the game good or bad. However, I am not wrong. It comes down to opinion. So there are so called rules as to what makes a good game. If a game doesn’t follow some of those rules, it supposedly lowers the quality of the game,. Those rules apply since the majority of people agree on them. But when it comes down to individuals, they all have their own likes and dislikes. However, you’re measuring their opinions on what you consider makes a good game.
What you can’t seem to understand is that is it down to opinion on whether a game is good or not. All the "hard facts" you’ve provided wouldn’t sway a person who likes the game. They like the game, and it is good for them, regardless of what supposed evidence is brought against it. The evidence proving a game is bad, only works if other people agree. Therefore, it’s not evidence. It’s just what the majority think.
The story is linear. Everything is told to you so you don’t need to work anything out. It doesn’t require you to think. The limit system is flawed. The materia system allows any character to be changed into anything in battle…. and whatever else has been brought up in this thread. They’re all present, yet why do all people still like the game? Because they like it. Their own opinion transcends anything that’s been stated.
You seem to want some argument giving evidence and facts opposing the things that go against the game. To me, that’s pointless like I’ve proven in my first post in this thread. It’s simply down to opinion. There is no evidence as to what makes a good or bad game. The quality of a game is purely subjective to the individual, despite what the majority think, regardless of the supposed "rules" there are. It’s entirely possible a game follows all the rules and special formulae as to what you think makes a good game, yet there will be people who won’t like it, despite the game having no "evidence" against it.
These types of arguments will go nowhere until you start to discuss the underlying subject. What makes a good game. That is the real question, and there is no answer since everyone has their own opinion as to what makes a good game. And again, therefore, arguing or debating is pointless.
Wow, um, maybe you should read the entire thread…
All the "hard facts" about game quality apply, whether they make the game good or bad. However, I am not wrong. It comes down to opinion. So there are so called rules as to what makes a good game. If a game doesn’t follow some of those rules, it supposedly lowers the quality of the game,. Those rules apply since the majority of people agree on them. But when it comes down to individuals, they all have their own likes and dislikes. However, you’re measuring their opinions on what you consider makes a good game.
What you can’t seem to understand is that is it down to opinion on whether a game is good or not. All the "hard facts" you’ve provided wouldn’t sway a person who likes the game. They like the game, and it is good for them, regardless of what supposed evidence is brought against it. The evidence proving a game is bad, only works if other people agree. Therefore, it’s not evidence. It’s just what the majority think.
The story is linear. Everything is told to you so you don’t need to work anything out. It doesn’t require you to think. The limit system is flawed. The materia system allows any character to be changed into anything in battle…. and whatever else has been brought up in this thread. They’re all present, yet why do all people still like the game? Because they like it. Their own opinion transcends anything that’s been stated.
You seem to want some argument giving evidence and facts opposing the things that go against the game. To me, that’s pointless like I’ve proven in my first post in this thread. It’s simply down to opinion. There is no evidence as to what makes a good or bad game. The quality of a game is purely subjective to the individual, despite what the majority think, regardless of the supposed "rules" there are. It’s entirely possible a game follows all the rules and special formulae as to what you think makes a good game, yet there will be people who won’t like it, despite the game having no "evidence" against it.
These types of arguments will go nowhere until you start to discuss the underlying subject. What makes a good game. That is the real question, and there is no answer since everyone has their own opinion as to what makes a good game. And again, therefore, arguing or debating is pointless.
That simply isn’t true. Take a game like Halo. It’s a very, very shallow game with nothing to it other than "shoot the bad guys." People still like it for some strange reason, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a shallow game that is extremely overrated. Also, the quality of the story isn’t just a matter of opinion. The ending is incomplete and there were many loose ends left untied. You can’t possibly argue that that’s a good thing or that it’s just an opinion.
Did you even read Rabid Monkey’s first post? Many people who post in this thread haven’t.
Did you even read Rabid Monkey’s first post? Many people who post in this thread haven’t.
I read the first 200 posts.
You just proved my point there too. Halo doesn’t really have anything to it (not that I’ve played it, I’m just going by what you’re saying), yet people like it. They really really like it. True, is doesn’t change the fact that it’s a shallow game, but since so many people like it, then you can’t say it’s a bad game. Well maybe for yourself you can, but for the many people that like it, it doesn’t make it a bad game. Therefore, whether it is good or bad is down to opinion.
As for FF7’s ending, I’m guessing a lot of people think it’s a bad ending. You’re saying people can’t possibly argue that it’s a good ending? Well what if they did like it? What if they liked the open ending and really thought it was a good one? Since you think the complete opposite, you really want some good reason and explanation for this, but I don’t think you will get one, simply because when it come’s down to it, it’ll be what a person likes or dislikes. But yes, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s an ending with loose ends. Whether that is good or bad however, is a matter of opinion, and subjective to the individual, despite what the majority may think.
Like I said in my first post in this thread, this argument may just end up with personal remarks being thrown around.
X: "I thought FF7’s ending was the best one ever!"
Y: "How? There was so many things left unexplained. All you saw was Red XII and some greenery over Midgar, that’s it."
X: "I like open endings. It leaves it to your imagination."
Y: "So you’re telling me you like all those loose ends? To me, that’s a crap ending."
X: "Well I liked it!"
Y: "Why?"
X: "Because I do! I’ve already answered why!"
Y: "That it’s an open ending leaving things up to your imagination? Riight, you’re strange."
That’s a basic derivation.
Ok, so tell me what makes a good or bad game then. That is the real discussion. If you’re saying a person can like a bad game, is it a bad game for them? Why is it a bad game? Because it lacks certain things?
If there really are in fact a list of rules that make a game good, then it is considered a good game. But why? Because the majority would agree with them. So when a person plays a "bad" game that doesn’t have any of those factors, then they are regarded by the majority as liking a bad game.
Good or bad is based on opinion. What a person considers good or bad transends whatever anyone else thinks makes a good or bad game.
If your saying personal dislikes and likes are disregarded for the purposes of debate, then I just fail to see the point of debating (like I’ve said many times before). What in fact are you really debating about? It can’t be whether FF7 is a good or bad game, because that is down to opinion. It’s subjective to the individual, despite what the majority may think.
[Edit (Addition)]
A few billion people (group A) like game X but hate game Y, you would all consider X to be a good game and Y to be the bad game.
Another few billion people (group B) like game Y but hate game X. They all consider game Y to be a good game and X to be the bad game.
Group A would say that group B like a bad game and hate a good hame. Group B would say that group A like a bad game and hate a good game.
Good and bad are not the same as like and dislike. I happen to like the movie Kull the Conquerer, but I would never say it’s a good movie. It’s quite bad, but I like it. On the other hand, I freely acknowledge that Metal Gear Solid 3 was a great game, but I hated it completely.
And even if I thought Kull was good, it would still be bad because it lacked in technical merit. If I thought MGS3 was awful, it would still be good because it was well-designed.
It’s because I understand that concept that I am able to debate the matter effectively.
If you want to press the issue and echo the same things you’ve been saying, don’t expect a further reply because that’s all I have to say (as well as all that needs to be said) on the matter.
I personally enjoyed playing final fantasy 7, however I think that it is cheapened by the hype and constant shameless promotion by fanatics.
Good and bad are not the same as like and dislike. I happen to like the movie Kull the Conquerer, but I would never say it’s a good movie. It’s quite bad, but I like it. On the other hand, I freely acknowledge that Metal Gear Solid 3 was a great game, but I hated it completely.
And even if I thought Kull was good, it would still be bad because it lacked in technical merit. If I thought MGS3 was awful, it would still be good because it was well-designed.
It’s because I understand that concept that I am able to debate the matter effectively.
If you want to press the issue and echo the same things you’ve been saying, don’t expect a further reply because that’s all I have to say (as well as all that needs to be said) on the matter.
Maybe you shouldn’t use the words good and bad. If something has technical merit, is well designed and basically has more, it doesn’t make it good. My vocabulary truly sucks so I don’t know what word to use apart from the phrase "technically better".
Good or bad is subjective to the individual, but the two words I don’t know are not.
If you still think I don’t understand what you’re saying, I’ll give you a similar example in terms of, lets say, singing. Christina Aguilera has a bigger range, she can control her vibrato, she can always sing in key. Britney Spears can’t do any of that. It doesn’t mean that Christina Aguilera is good, and it doesn’t mean that Britney Spears is bad, since what is good or bad is subjective to the individual. Person A might think that Britney Spears has a really good voice, to them. While techincally, Christina has the better voice.
If you simply have been discussing what is "technically better", I’ll back off. FF7 doesn’t really stand a chance. Debating whether it is good or bad however is pointless.
[Edit (Addition)]
Halo example. Technically, it doesn’t have much. But to many people, it’s a good game. They don’t like a bad game.
[Edit (Further Addition)]
In terms of music, some people may think pop music is good, but think heavy metal is bad. They might not even consider it music at all. While other people think heavy metal is good, and pop is bad. What genre is technically superior however is where the debate lies. That’s why good and bad are subjective to the individual.
Heh. Yet another silly n00b who didn’t bother to read the thread.
I personally enjoyed playing final fantasy 7, however I think that it is cheapened by the hype and constant shameless promotion by fanatics.
When it comes down to its finest point, there is simply no explanation as to why someone would like or dislike something.
Take flavour for example. Why do you like that certain flavour? Well er, you just do. You can’t explain it.
I like FF7, probably due to all the first time experience thing. While it has better graphics than FF6, it is mostly technically inferior to FF6. But I like FF7 more. Just because a game is technically good, doesn’t mean it is good. Well, that is how I see things. If you like something, you would think it’s good, regardless of whether it’s technically good or technically bad. It’s just not logical to like something you think is bad. But it would make sense to like something that it is technically bad.
I’m stuck with using technically good and technically bad since I just don’t have any other words that could describe it.
You just proved my point there too. Halo doesn’t really have anything to it (not that I’ve played it, I’m just going by what you’re saying), yet people like it. They really really like it. True, is doesn’t change the fact that it’s a shallow game, but since so many people like it, then you can’t say it’s a bad game.
Just watch me.
Halo is a bad game. This is because it is completely unoriginal, and public opinion has nothing to do with a game’s quality.
Halo is a bad game. This is because it is completely unoriginal, and public opinion has nothing to do with a game’s quality.
Sure, but the graphics make it look good and that attracts many people to it, that and the simple controls(I still don’t know why people like the damn game)…It’s the same with what FFVII had back in the day…good graphics and simple easy controls and gameplay and a retarded storyline…that people liked.
If your were to write a review for a magazine and say "I like so and so product just because. I cannot explain why, think ‘flavours’" then people wouldn’t read it.
I like FF7, probably due to all the first time experience thing.
Well I guess you do have a reason after all. I do not personally agree that a game should be idolised because it was the first you played. However, your reason stands.
I like X because of A, B and C. I like A, B and C due to D, E and F. I Like D, E and F because of G, H and I. It could go on and on, but there’s only so much it can boil down to.
I’m not gonna defend why I like FF7, because I’ve said many times that I find debating about games pointless.
Who said I idolize the game. I said I like the game.
Because it was my first ever FF, it gave me experiences I hadn’t ever experienced up until then. Therefore, for me, it’s hard to say I dislike the game when I don’t. Despite it lacking in certain areas compared to other FFs, I like it. It’s not like I’m gonna hear something that lots of people dislike causing me to dislike it. I’ve read every criticism and I agree with most if not all of them. Does it make the game bad? Technically and theoretically yes. But to people, it simple depends on what they think of it.
I’m not against debating about FF7. But I am against explaining why exactly someone would like or dislike the game, since things like that cannot be explained.
A non-linear storyline would in theory, be better than a linear one since there’s more to it. But it doesn’t mean that a non-linear storyline is good and a linear one is bad. Well designed and graphically appealing games may be better in that technical area, but it doesn’t necessairly make them good. Since I believe that whether something is good or bad is solely subjective to the individual, I will continue to stand by this view. If you enjoy something, anything, you would think it’s good, regardless of the technical stuff and whether or not it is technically inferior or superior.
Since some have been making assumptions, it seems clear they haven’t read what I previously posted. But whatever, this is just a damn game. Who bloody cares. Everyone has their own view.
And just so I can make this clear, I don’t think FF7 is the greatest game ever. I don’t idolize it. I don’t think it has a great storyline. I don’t think Cloud or Sephiroth are "badass". However, I do like the materia system. I like customization. I like the combinations and different tactics and effects that can be generated. Why? I just do. But I also like different jobs and that in FFVI and FFIX. I like the fact that each character has their own role and you have to think about your party. But then again, I also like the materia system. I don’t consider one better than the other. They both have their pros and cons.
I just went against why I’ve been saying for so long (but it seemed necessary to satisfy the hunger of some people), and I feel this whole thread is just game in itself. Have fun!
Or maybe it’s cause you’re just a tard.
Really now chornsy, was that really necessary? 😛
I like X because of A, B and C. I like A, B and C due to D, E and F. I Like D, E and F because of G, H and I. It could go on and on, but there’s only so much it can boil down to.
I’m not gonna defend why I like FF7, because I’ve said many times that I find debating about games pointless.
This is a debate thread. If you don’t like debating about games, then why are you even posting here?
But it was necessary. 😛
This is a debate thread. If you don’t like debating about games, then why are you even posting here?
I won’t anymore. If you would have read my previous posts you would see what I had to say. I did plan to stop posting in this thread but since I was quoted and replied to, I had to say more. If you only read the most recent posts, quote and reply to them, I reply back repeating what I’ve been saying before so you don’t misunderstand.
But now, I’ve said what I had to say. I don’t have anymore input on this subject. I don’t care about FF7 enough to have a debate about aspects of the game.
Stating to have had a stronger emotional reaction to a game because you played it first, is an illogical argument in my opinion. I personally would not let this factor alter my judgement when criticising a game.
I mean, dude, you can feel the way you want, think what you want and everything.
But without any hard feelings, I say that you have a problem man.
Yeah sure. Whatever you say, sport.
No offense, I’m not trying to diss you. But it’s such a good game, you must have seen SOMETHING that you liked?
I think pretty much all of us have made mention of something we liked. Still, all that means is that we think it had some redeeming values that kept it in the realm of mediocrity instead being a total train wreck.
Weren’t you touched when Sephiroth killed Aeris (or Aerith, whatever)?
No. Saw it coming a mile away. It had only been foreshadowed for half the game to that point.
Didn’t you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?
No. I saw that coming also.
I mean, dude, you can feel the way you want, think what you want and everything.
But without any hard feelings, I say that you have a problem man.
That’s nice. But we’re all big, bad, mean men around here and you’d be a lot happier if you went and played with some legos or something instead of subjecting yourself to the harsh reality we offer.
So I have a mental problem. Really, can you prove it?
Weren’t you touched when Sephiroth killed Aeris (or Aerith, whatever)? Didn’t you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?No, not really, lot of people in games die, it’s only a game.
Didn’t you even feel just a little hate when Cait Sith betrayed everyone?No, not really, it was pretty obvious what was gonna happen. I can’t feel betrayed by some pixels on a screen.
I mean, dude, you can feel the way you want, think what you want and everything. Okay, I will
But without any hard feelings, I say that you have a problem man.
No hard feelings? But you just said that I have a serious mental problem!
Well just because I do have a stronger emotional connection to the game making me like it more than others, it’s hardly an argument to say the game is technically good. It’s not an argument at all. If I was to review a game, I wouldn’t let any of my opinions affect the review.
Of course you would, if I made a review of FFVII, I would put my opinion of the game in there cause otherwise I would be a robot, is that what you want to be?
If I was to review a game, I would point out all its technical highlights and drawbacks, but I wouldn’t let my opinion of the game make it a biased review. Maybe at the end I would give my own personal opinion.
I don’t know, but Jewel started, so I tried correcting him, but I think he’s beyond that by now.^_^
I had figured out Cait Sith because he was too pushy about joining the party. I remember my little brother yelling at me to shut up when I screamed, "I knew it!"
What else would happen to her? Would she just get a cut on her knee? I’m not being sarcastic; I’m just asking to know.
I suppose that’s possible… That kind of thing doesn’t happen very often, though. It happened all the time in FFIV, what with Cid surviving jumping out of an airship and blowing himself up but being too tired to help your party, but it didn’t really come up again in the FF series.
Well, everythings been covered anyway, but I’m still going to say it. At the time it was a terrific game, now I think the other ones have crept up, especially with graphics and character abilities. I still recon it had the best story and SOME of the best music out of all the FF games.
Well, everythings been covered anyway, but I’m still going to say it. At the time it was a terrific game, now I think the other ones have crept up, especially with graphics and character abilities. I still recon it had the best story and SOME of the best music out of all the FF games.
This is why you need to read the thread. Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak, who have all but eradicated every argument in favor of FFVII, said absolutely nothing about the new FF games making FFVII obsolete. IMO, FF has been going downhill since FFVI. Graphics determine absolutely nothing about the quality of a game, and FFVI’s character abilities absolutely pwn the crap out of anything from FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, or any other for that matter. FFVII is just as good now as it was when it came out; the newer FFs have not introduced anything revolutionary at all. This thread is about how good it was then and still is now. Your post leaves me with the most extreme doubt that you have played through FF1-6. I do agree with you about the music, but the movie Waterworld proved that a really good soundtrack can’t save a movie or game single-handedly. I still say FFVII is my personal favorite FF game, but it is not the best.
P.S. Yes, I am crazy.
First realize that when I say pre-FFVII-fans, I am talking about players of the series who realize games like FFIV and VI are better FF RPGs.
With that said, in much the same way as the pre-FFVII-fans seem to want FFVII-fans to realize how inferior FFVII is, the pre-FFVII-fans should realize well the reason why FFVII rubs them the wrong way.
Because a shift was applied and slapped with the Final Fantasy brand with FFVII.
It is not a bad game, by any stretch of the imagination. If it hadn’t carried the FF name, odds are the naysayers would have loved it. Neither is it perfect, it’s vastly flawed. But so are all the FF games to varying degrees. Again, with that said, I still like to point out the mediocre reasons why FFVII fans consider it a good game, or even the best. In my view, these silly "fanboy(girl)ish" reasons ruin the legitimate reasons.
We all know the mediocre reasons, they’ve been recited and remixed endlessly. But the reasons I consider legitimate rarely are, if ever. In a nutshell, FFVII was a great and exotic (in every sense of the word) story; the presentation was relative rubbish, and the often-idiotic translation enhanced this fact. (is barret supposed to be talking ebonics or something?) You can’t deny the strangeness, for lack of a better word. The underlying sense of the afterlife is, cool, I guess, for another lack of a better word. Another thing is the relatively ambiguous sense of good and evil; something the "better", older FF games totally lack. You got your Zeromus, you got your Kefka, and whatnot. All these evil scum who are all ranging from the typical un-repairable bad guy tormented into a love of cruelty, to the full-on essense of pure evil. Sephiroth was a sad creep who basically got sparked off by nothing but revenge and indignation, while, for instance, Kefka was already a well established bastard, and probably one by nature; Zeromus and the rest that I know, just your average essense of evil, like I said.
You gotta give FFVII credit for subtle things such as these. And the music in it is my favorite, I loved most of the dramatic music in it. These are the reasons why I consider it to be good.
First realize that when I say pre-FFVII-fans, I am talking about players of the series who realize games like FFIV and VI are better FF RPGs.
With that said, in much the same way as the pre-FFVII-fans seem to want FFVII-fans to realize how inferior FFVII is, the pre-FFVII-fans should realize well the reason why FFVII rubs them the wrong way.
Because a shift was applied and slapped with the Final Fantasy brand with FFVII.
It is not a bad game, by any stretch of the imagination. If it hadn’t carried the FF name, odds are the naysayers would have loved it. Neither is it perfect, it’s vastly flawed. But so are all the FF games to varying degrees. Again, with that said, I still like to point out the mediocre reasons why FFVII fans consider it a good game, or even the best. In my view, these silly "fanboy(girl)ish" reasons ruin the legitimate reasons.
We all know the mediocre reasons, they’ve been recited and remixed endlessly. But the reasons I consider legitimate rarely are, if ever. In a nutshell, FFVII was a great and exotic (in every sense of the word) story; the presentation was relative rubbish, and the often-idiotic translation enhanced this fact. (is barret supposed to be talking ebonics or something?) You can’t deny the strangeness, for lack of a better word. The underlying sense of the afterlife is, cool, I guess, for another lack of a better word. Another thing is the relatively ambiguous sense of good and evil; something the "better", older FF games totally lack. You got your Zeromus, you got your Kefka, and whatnot. All these evil scum who are all ranging from the typical un-repairable bad guy tormented into a love of cruelty, to the full-on essense of pure evil. Sephiroth was a sad creep who basically got sparked off by nothing but revenge and indignation, while, for instance, Kefka was already a well established bastard, and probably one by nature; Zeromus and the rest that I know, just your average essense of evil, like I said.
You gotta give FFVII credit for subtle things such as these. And the music in it is my favorite, I loved most of the dramatic music in it. These are the reasons why I consider it to be good.
Though you did a much better job defending FFVII than most, you didn’t use any specific examples to support your details. You mixed up details about Sephiroth, for one thing. And Kefka has a totally unknown past, so you have no way of knowing that he wasn’t just a sad creep who went nuts. As for Zeromus, you don’t know that Zeromus is your enemy until the very end of the game. Sephiroth, on the other hand, is basically the only reason why the party is even on a journey throughout the duration of the game. Finally, you cannot have possibly read all of the early posts, because they countered most, if not all, of your points.
And to prove once again that I’m not just biased against FFVII, it was and still is my favorite of the series.
If you have a reply post it, because I want to know your reasoning for how you "predicted" this. This wasn’t predictable.
Does anyone have feedback to this? I would like to hear it.
I don’t really agree that pointing out details make or break any RPG. The same statement about not using specific examples could be said about any claim. Including those that state the older FF games are better (something I agree with in the case of FFIV and VI). I said it pretty clearly that FFVII has it’s good points, but tend to be beyond what the average "fanboy" cares about in their enjoyment of it. But they are there, in my opinion. I did say what they were. I could spend all day trying to put into words specific examples about what I mean in saying ‘the game had an intresting feel, setting, and message’, but I don’t see the specific point in doing so, since these are all just opinions and can be dismissed.
And Kefka has a totally unknown past, so you have no way of knowing that he wasn’t just a sad creep who went nuts.
Yes of course, but as far what I consider to be my reasonable judgment, Kefka was a bad guy who enjoyed cruelty, hence what I said about him being a bastard by nature. In my view, Sephiroth didn’t come across that way as an introduced character, only until he learned about things he lost it.
Maybe a similar thing happened to Kefka, but maybes are irrelevant when only interpreting events in stories that you actually witness. As with what happens with Sephiroth. Not to mention the fact that, unlike the latter, Kefka is not shown to us in any way to have any consideration for matters of an afterlife with his actions. On the other hand, someone could go so far as to say Sephiroth was really trying to be a good guy and bring serenity, or whatever. If that’s the case, not your typical blood-thirsty madman who wanted to just "destroy everything" for the sake of it.
As for Zeromus, you don’t know that Zeromus is your enemy until the very end of the game. Sephiroth, on the other hand, is basically the only reason why the party is even on a journey throughout the duration of the game.
I don’t think it matters when you know who the enemy is. The point is Zeromus was the enemy, and soley responsible for everything just the same; and was just your standard ‘evil entity’ out for destruction. All I’m arguing here is the underlying story of things.
Finally, you cannot have possibly read all of the early posts, because they countered most, if not all, of your points.
And to prove once again that I’m not just biased against FFVII, it was and still is my favorite of the series.
I really don’t see where an opinion being countered is grounds for dismissal of a claim; like one saying FFVII isn’t a good game. I gave reasons why I think it’s a good game overall (or at the very least not a terrible one as some claim). That, just an argument against the statement all throughout this thread, and this old issue in general, that there is never a good statement of reasons why someone likes FFVII.
I agree with just saying "it’s cool" is not a good reason, but I think the reasons I’ve stated were told a little better. If you consider those reasons to not have enough specific examples, nor evidence from the game, then by that same logic in my view, neither do the reasons given about the supposed better games.
oh, it’s waaaay beyond that point!
I’m just sick of people like Rabid Monkey pointing out that they know everything, he doesn’t and I want to show it. Sorry if that isn’t correct, but it pisses me off. Plus it wasn’t obvious was it? You should know Prak, I think you’re the smartest. (No sarcasm)
SOMEONE REPLY DAMMIT!
Thats what I was thinking.
SO if FFVII is not a good game then FFVIII is shit as well . My FFX is the BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O:]
Sure, but the graphics make it look good and that attracts many people to it, that and the simple controls(I still don’t know why people like the damn game)…It’s the same with what FFVII had back in the day…good graphics and simple easy controls and gameplay and a retarded storyline…that people liked.
Halo sux , if you like FPS try CS2 insteed .
Yeah FFVII’s story line is retarded but it is still much better than FFVI’s =)
And would you like to use specific examples and reasoning to support your point about the storyline compared to that of FFVI, or should we just disregard your comment on that altogether? Those are your two options.
SO if FFVII is not a good game then FFVIII is shit as well . My FFX is the BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O:]
Halo sux , if you like FPS try CS2 insteed .
Yeah FFVII’s story line is retarded but it is still much better than FFVI’s =)I liked FFVI the most!
I liked FFVI the second most, but I think it’s the best. Proof against the stupid argument the fanboys keep using that it’s entirely a matter of opinion.
jks I think this game was the best cuz you keep guessing why cloud is screwed up till you find out in the lifestream.
VIISephirothVII, I’m pretty sure your question got answered when I was debating with Durendal. If it wasn’t then give me some more information about what exactly you’re asking. After all, I haven’t actively debated in this thread for almost 6 months. Heck, the only reason I posted was because I wanted to comment on FFIX.
VIISephirothVII, I’m pretty sure your question got answered when I was debating with Durendal. If it wasn’t then give me some more information about what exactly you’re asking. After all, I haven’t actively debated in this thread for almost 6 months. Heck, the only reason I posted was because I wanted to comment on FFIX.
I really think this is a sign that this and the other thread should be closed. I’m not saying you can’t say stuff about FFIX in here; after all, you’re the thread starter. But it means there isn’t much left to discuss about FFVII. This thread is really getting worn out. Another reason is what you told VIISephirothVII, about how his question was answered earlier. This thread is extremely long, so many people just don’t bother to read it and post stuff that has already been countered/disproven. There’s really no way to prevent that. Maybe I just feel sorry for the FFVII fanboys who are really getting their asses kicked. If this thread continues, I can only quote Samuel L. Jackson from
Jurassic Park
"Hold on to your butts."
And no one’s opoinons changed because no one seems to consider any other view.
Oh how witty, pretending to wait for people to respond before you post the reply. In all seriousness, I’m pretty sure a number of people have had their opinion changed. However, I doubt many have actually said it in the thread. Not that it matters because I you don???t seem like someone that reads anything other than your own posts in threads this large.
FF1WithAllThieves: I still get some entertainment out of this thread (and the other one). Every time I see it come back to the top with some fanboy screaming holy murder and demanding the thread be closed, my heart warms a little. The main reason is because they would like nothing better than to see this thread drop off the front page and never come back, yet they continue to bump it up. It boggles my mind how so many people can be like "this thread should be closed" and completely fail to realize that they contribute to it staying alive merely by replying to it. To be 100% clear (because I know it is sometimes hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic on a forum) I’m not taking a shot at you. You’ve actually contributed intelligently, so it would be pretty silly of me to try and take an indirect jab at you.
As for FFIX, I never look in that forum, to be honest. I really don’t know what compelled me to comment, other than the fact that it showed that Square COULD move back to a decent ability system if they decided… even though it still needed a lot of work and they abandoned it after FFIX.
With that said, to a large number of you:
IF YOU DO NOT WANT THIS THREAD TO CONTINUE YOUR BEST OPTION IS TO SIMPLY NOT POST IN IT. IF YOU POST IN THIS THREAD IT MEANS YOU ARE ONLY BRINGING IT TO THE TOP OF THE PAGE ONE MORE TIME.
Rabid Monkey: Yeah, you’re right. Now that I think about it, this thread is kind of entertaining. I’ll go pop some popcorn.
I agree with Prak: Someone please ban this fucker.
uh oh..this thread isnt at the top anymore….here, ill help it back up again
IP bans aren’t the only type. 😉 If we really wanted to keep you from joining again, we could. However, you haven’t really done anything outside of this thread that warrants a ban. Well, at least nothing any of the mods have seen.
And just what kinda bans you talkin about? Are ya gonna filter my MAC…cuz i doubt that…and i can always get around that if you cud 😀
Yeah, he’s annoying.
actually…yes…i need lotsa love…and where am i bad mouthing anyone…i love ya all….cmon man..give me a hug…you know you want to…*extends arms out* 😀
FFVII is the greatest because it made the most money!!!!1111
Well, i was wondering why this thread hasnt come back up in a while…and i forgot how it ended..and i was readin through some of the post, and took more notice to this than i did before….i know its late…but better late than never…so ‘ere goes…
what point am i still trying to defend…for god sakes…my last seven posts above your post have been me hitting on you guys, and accepting an award of being annoyin as if it were an oscar, and about banning me….i think you need to open you eyes and take a look around you…its sad to see someone as ignorant as you are…but someone has to take the role…congrats!
what point am i still trying to defend…for god sakes…my last seven posts above your post have been me hitting on you guys, and accepting an award of being annoyin as if it were an oscar, and about banning me….i think you need to open you eyes and take a look around you…its sad to see someone as ignorant as you are…but someone has to take the role…congrats!
You were hitting on us?!?! GROSSS!
Could someone post something that’s relevant to the thread please?
i love final fantasy 7, how can i back it up??? aeris, she made the game, the storyline is hard to follow for younger fans, i first played it when i was only 8 and i didnt really understand it, but i still completed it anyway, the statargy book is only a walk through of the game and basic requermants of how to complete it, going back and playing it again and also looking around the place more will show you a little bit more….a few things you might of missed……..some things you click with some you dont……………….you obviosly only played the game to kill people and complete it, i play it mostly everyday still now…..completed it about 8 times………..never gets old for me……..i love the storyline, just because it doesnt have dramatic twists in it makes it crap??? think about what your saying dude
just because it doesnt have dramatic twists in it makes it crap??? think about what your saying dude
I have to admit that I’m impressed you didn’t use Aeris as a "dramatic twist". Anyway, give better examples and think about punctuation and other forms of proper grammar dude.
Seriously tell me you weren’t thinking "wow this looks cool" when you first saw this
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mowlam/junk/temp/three/ff7-midgar-1280×1024.jpe
or when you first saw this you weren’t thinking "WOW this looks so much better than the other Final Fantasy’s"
maybe you should read more carfully, i know other games had similar graphics, that is why i said it was what they could give us at the time in an RPG game, the graphics are not up to par along with your comprehension rate, i know your screen name is rabid monkey but i didnt think it was seriously a discription of yourself.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in what I said. FFVII wasn’t the best graphics at the time. Other games came out before and at the same time as FFVII with better graphics. We have discussed this in this thread already, which is why I told you to go and look in the rest of the thread. You are not offering anything new to the debate.
As for the weak shot at my username, what exactly does it have to do with the debate? I commend you for trying to take attention off of the fact that you don’t have a damn clue what you???re talking about, by making fun of me, but it didn’t work.
Why would you say that RB? We have discussed EVERYTHING in the tread already. These ppl should stop posting. And take the time that they take to post…to read the thread. It is quite entertaining.
actually…why dont you list the games. We have discussed one game…which actually was stated that the grapics have aged better…but we did not state that it had better graphics. That game was Blood Omen…now what other games had better graphics? Cuz so far the list is at 0…which is stating an opinion which has no factual evidence which again…you guys depend on sooooo much. I don’t really care about it anymore…but im jus gonna help out the guys who need it most…but as of now…im gonna have to ignore that statement until we see some facts to back it up a lil bit.
Sephiroth and teh Cloud are teh pwnage.
I thought that Sephiroth’s Nova attack was stupid.
I thought that Sephiroth’s Nova attack was stupid.
actually…i liked it…but that has nuttin 2 do with the thread…
I don’t see why you guys get so hung up on graphics. Rabid Monkey’s point was that the graphics weren’t any better than the standard at the time. FFVII’s graphics were good, yes, but not significantly better than those of most other games that came out at that time. Of course the graphics were better than the earlier FFs; there’s a huge difference between the PS and the SNES. But anyway, if you’re going to say that FFVII’s graphics made it good, then explain why.
I covered that in my very first post, actually. Due to my laziness (AKA needing to do more important things than repeat myself), if you want to know what I think about this go ahead and read the thread from the very beginning.
To everyone that hasn???t posted/read anything in this thread: ACTUALLY GO BACK AND READ WHAT WAS SAID. IF YOU CAN???T OFFER ANYTHING NEW THEN DON???T BOTHER POSTING.
Gwahahahaha
well..graphics…although they dont exactly make a game a great or bad game still have some ruling over it. And it looks like you saying that there were other games that had jus as good graphics as ff7 is a load of shit without proof. Jus cuz you say its true doesnt mean it is. Les see some of this "proof" you guys always want.
you complain that the limit system made it too hard and anouying, then you complain the the materia system made it way too easy…@_@
the storyline was great, and was rather complex, but also easy to follow, if it was not easy to follow, then it would be absolutly no fun to play if everything made absolutly no sense…@[email protected] anyway, just because 2 mages got petrfied, and a main character got melted, doesn’t mean that these games were better than FFVII, both of those games are good, and so is final fantasy VII.
why do i believe it is a good game? well…
…i just realized that absolutly all of this is personal opinion and is a weird thing to post, because if i were to say the game was well scripted…that would be personal opinion, if i were to say the limit break system was anouying, or the materia system made the game too easy, that too would be personal opinion,even if i were to say that this game was easy to beat, and that the storyline was shallow, that IS personal opinion, (last one) and if i were to argue that the Game had great character design, and that it was FUN to play the game, that is PERSONAL OPINION.
anyway, a majority of this stuff is personal opinion, and i don’t really care for much of what this guy is saying…
this post goes to show you that some one can care so much about RPG games that they start up a post to complain about how it "sickens" them that some one has an opinion opposite of theirs on something as dumb a video game…@_@
you(capitalize the Y) complain that the limit system made it too hard and anouying(annoying), then you complain the the(that the, not the the)materia system made it way too easy…@_@
the (capitalize the T)storyline was great, and was rather complex, but also easy to follow,(period in place of the comma, capitalize the I in ???if??? after) if it was not easy to follow, then it would be absolutly(absolutely) no fun to play if everything made absolutly(absolutely) no sense…@[email protected] (take out the and, capitalize the A in anyway)anyway, just because 2 mages got petrfied(petrified), and a main character got melted, doesn’t mean that these games were better than FFVII, (period in place of the comma, capitalize the B in both)both of those games are good, and so is final fantasy VII(needs a period)
anyway(capitalize the A), a(the, not a) majority of this shit is personal opinion, and i(capitalize the I) don’t really care for much of what this guy says(needs a period)
Because you decided to call me stupid, and then not add anything new to the debate, I figured I would fix all the errors for you. The changes that need to be made are in bold.
but it seems to me that you are now just making fun of my grammer skills and avoiding the topic.
but (The but isn???t really needed, but it???s not ???wrong??? to have it there. In any event, the B needs to be capitalized) it seems to me that you are now just making fun of my grammer (grammar) skills and avoiding the topic.
Nah, I just don???t feel like repeating myself.
Anyway, feel free to point me in the direction of the posts. I’m pretty sure more was said about graphics within these two threads than just that, but when I had stopped replying. To put it bluntly, you care a lot more about this thread than I do. 😛
half way down the page is where it starts..with my post…then it goes on from there
Not that it matters because you didn’t really "prove" Prak wrong. You based your opinion on about two screenshots from BO and around five (or more) from FFVII, that’s not exactly a fair representation of either game.
However, you’re still missing the point that both Prak and myself have said, if graphics is the ONLY arguable point (as it seems to be) then there’s really no debate at all.
And graphics are not are only argument. Storyline, gameplay, and characters are also are arguments we are just not discussing them currently.
yeah…i’m just going through the debate and finding you make multiple distractions at peoples garmmar, and you had the gul to say that…man…
(talking to rabid monkey)
I think a more accurate way to think about it than (good/bad) and (technically good/technically bad) would be (enjoyable/not enjoyable) and (good/bad).
prak…i would have to say that how fun or "Enjoyable" a game is, is actualy one of the factors of making a game good or bad… actualy, maybe one of the main factors…so…if one of the factors of making a game good or bad involves opinion. then…if a game is good or bad…that is subjective.
the person who started this thread. started it because he did not like playing FFVII. And he kept pointing out factors that made the game not enjoyable for him. and then he complained about how many people did enjoy it.
if i may qoute, he said he was "Sickened by how many fanboys and fangirls" there are…@_@
I was thinking that it would go uncontested that FFVII’s graphics weren’t incredibly revolutionary. Good for their time, yes, but not uncanny. My point was not that other games at the same time had graphics that were just as good. My point was that FFVII didn’t have such incredibly amazing graphics for its time that it was completely revolutionary. If you want to argue that it’s graphics were that good, then tell me so that I can go and get some proof. Graphics have to be REALLY good to make a game stand out, and I don’t think you guys are trying to say that the graphics alone made FFVII stand out.
(talking to rabid monkey)
Actually, you didn’t add anything to the debate, and you called me stupid. If you’ll notice, your posts are the only ones I made corrections in. I was justified in what I did because the very first comment you made is that I am stupid, so you don’t really have a leg to stand on, buddy. Had you not decided to start your post out the way you did, I would have left it alone. However, you decided to take a personal shot at me, and I retaliated. You quote my response to the other poster (don???t remember his name) as though he didn???t take a personal shot at me to start with. I haven???t made any personal shots at anyone without being provoked first, so basically, don’t dish it out if you can’t take it and such.
that guy just used your name to add humour to his post, and it seems to me that your 1 paragraph response to it, was a much bigger distraction.
i decided to edit out stupid because i realized it was a rather immature comment, but i was just blown away that you could bad mouth a game like this so much, and then complain about how other people liked it.
anywho, in the end, i couldn’t take it so i stuck it back in the dish.
I’m back.
i decided to edit out stupid because i realized it was a rather immature comment, but i was just blown away that you could bad mouth a game like this so much, and then complain about how other people liked it.
anywho, in the end, i couldn’t take it so i stuck it back in the dish.
I just made the corrections in your post to add humor to my own. 😀
i decided to edit out stupid because i realized it was a rather immature comment, but i was just blown away that you could bad mouth a game like this so much, and then complain about how other people liked it.
anywho, in the end, i couldn’t take it so i stuck it back in the dish.
I have bolded the parts that make your opinion into trash. It’s completely laughable to suggest that RM was trying to evade the topic, because not a single FFVII fan successfully refuted his very first post. He doesn’t HAVE to say anything else because no one has given a good rebuttal. Also, RM never complained about how other people liked it; he complained about how overrated it was and how FFVII fans act so immaturely.
haha, good come back.
I have bolded the parts that make your opinion into trash. It’s completely laughable to suggest that RM was trying to evade the topic, because not a single FFVII fan successfully refuted his very first post. He doesn’t HAVE to say anything else because no one has given a good rebuttal. Also, RM never complained about how other people liked it; he complained about how overrated it was and how FFVII fans act so immaturely.
actually no. he complained about how many people liked it.
he said:
"That???s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game."
he makes no mention of the Fanboys and Fangrils maturity.
and if something is overrated, that means that lots of people like it when it isn’t that great (in his opinion), and if you complain about how many people like it. your complaining about people liking it.
oh dear, i just noticed that sentence. ok, i’m going to go back , and go through that post, step by step, and prove how this whole debate involves opinion. and because you shouldn’t put your on opinion into a debate, that would make this etnire thing a dumb debate.
Also, don’t double post.
I’d just like to see you try to have a debate without opinions in it. Such a thing does not exist. In a debate, you state your opinion and give factual evidence to support it. If there’s no opinion, there’s nothing to prove.
Also, when RM referred to fanboys, he didn’t mean just people who like the game. In that case, I am a "fanboy," and I’m actually arguing against the game. What RM meant by fanboys was people who obsess over the game and people who just came in here and attemted to say that RM, Smokey, and Prak are just trying to force their opinions on everyone and then resorted to name-calling. Just look through the thread. Look at how some of the fanboys and fangirls have behaved themselves. THAT is what RM was talking about, not about people liking the game.
this part, is not opinion, this is just fact.
However, that is where the superiority of FFVII to the earlier Final Fantasies ends. The fact is that the story is weak in comparison to the earlier FFs. Yes, weak. The story is very simple to follow, to the point that you don???t even have to <I>think</I> about the plot for a second to understand it.
now we get into opinion. you see, i did not find it weak at all, there are many twists and turns in the game, when i first played it, i had no idea Cait Sith was working for Shinra, and Aries death was shocking to me. when this guy played it, he must of been pyschic. but because he knew the future, the story line was shallow too him. if this guy thought it was shallow, and i thought it wasn’t..and if this is fact…then..we are in a strange paradox. how can there be 2 opposing facts about the same thing? there can’t, thats why it is opinion.
A lot of people seem to feel that it is a very dramatic game as well. Some cite Aeris dying as the definitive moment in the game while others harp about how you lose Cloud at one point. I???m sorry to break it to all of you, but characters have died in other games and the main character has been lost in other games, as well. Yes, Aeris dying is a shock, but it is far less of a shock than your two mages being turned to stone in order to save the rest of the party (FFIV for all of you who haven???t played it).
how? Aries died to save the planet, and those 2 mages died to save the party. whats the difference here? he might of thought it was not as much of a shock, but thats cause he is psychic, and once more, its opinion.
Yes, cloud being sucked into the Life Stream may cause you to be distraught, but no more distraught then seeing your main character literally melted by the last boss (Chrono Trigger).
at least he agrees with me here, he sayed it is "no more distraught" , but even thoguh our opinions agree, its still opinion.
FFVII does not introduce any new storyline twists and the story itself does not have any layers to it beyond everything that is flat out said through conversation in the game, making it a very shallow story.
its as shallow as a good movie can be, unless you want some stuff hidden so that you might not find out some part of the story. @_@. there really isn’t much else methods of expressing the story line, besides conversation. and it does have twists and turns, and thats about all you can hope for.
actually..there is a few hidden parts of the story line. if you don’t get vincent, you wouldn’t figure out who Sephiroths mother was, and if you didn’t go behind that waterfall, you wouldn’t figure out how it happened.
..but anyways, i thought it was a good storyline, and thats my opinion.
Ok, so it was not innovative as far as the story goes, what about the battle and materia system you ask?
It is pretty much a given that the battle system was not new at all. Just about every single Final Fantasy (or even RPG for that matter) had followed a similar formula before that, and I would hope that no one would argue that point further.
yes, this is true, it was not that inovative, that is a fact, but that still doesn’t make it any less of a good game (in my opinion, he might be an odd one that <B>only</B> likes games that are new and innovative)
Granted the Limit Break system was somewhat new (there had been limits in other Final Fantasies before FFVII, they just had different triggers), but it was hardly viable for consideration of being called ???innovative???. The fact is that the limit system is flawed in the manner that once you reach your ???limit??? you are no longer able to use the ???fight??? command. This makes it a pain to save the limit. You either use another command or skip your turn. Later on in the game this might not be a huge problem due to the fact that more command materia becomes available. However, in the early stages you pretty much have 4 options: use your limit, use magic, use an item, or skip that character???s turn. Using magic would not be a smart idea because then you may not have it for later battles when you really need it, the same holds true for using an item. Using your limit is often times undesirable because it means you will just be using it on an enemy you could much easier defeat by attacking normally, and skipping turns is always a horrid choice because you???re basically brought down to a 2-person party. This is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. I repeat, this is <I>not</I> a mark of a challenge game. What is the limit system then? Flawed. Even later in the game your characters shouldn???t HAVE to have another command that they can use in order to not worry about using their limit.
well, this is even more opinion. He Believes that it is Flawed. but what if the game designers did that to add more of a challenge to playing. i had no problam with the limit system. it was fine. i will admit i had to deal with saving it. but thats whats called a CHALLENGE.
ok he says it is not a mark of a challenge game….then why do you have a problem with it? what makes it anouying if it isn’t a challenge? what he calls a flaw is what i call a challenge.
As for the materia system, it???s not a bad system, but I don???t like it. It makes it far too easy for every character to gain every single ability in the game. The only thing that is really unique about any one member of the party is their limit breaks, which I already discussed. Besides, there isn???t really anything ???unique??? about the limits anyway, but I digress. As said, the materia system makes the game far too easy by allowing every character to use every command and spell in the game.
yeah, but the game is still a challenge, you have a limited amount of slots, so you can’t learn EVERY ability in the game. it just allows you to take ablitys that some one else has, and give it to the character your using
i liked it because it allowed me to pick favorites, and i got to use my favorite characters with the right abilitys.
but still it was his opinion that it was less of a challenge.
If you want a real challenge then you need a game where each character has unique abilities that are melded with the rest of the party in order to make a fully functioning unit. NOT a system where every damn member of the party can have the exact same materia and just flick away any enemy you see without any effort. That???s not a challenge game, that???s a game being made for simpletons.
before i go on. you said you didn’t bash final fantasy fans, but right there you called them simpletons.
anywho. you said that every damn member can have the exact same materia. almost true, like spells, and command materia can be bought, but materia that matters in big battles, are usualy summons, which are uniqe.
also, they can not be a functioning unit if not all of your characters are in the battle. i don’t know if you got to battle with all you characters in FFV or FFVI,and all the other classics. but thats not a functioning unit, if your white mage is off somewhere else, and you need to cure some one, or if you black mage is off somewhere else, and your going against am guy that is weak against magic, then that isn’t a functioning unit, thats a disaster waiting to happen.
in final fantasy 7 you only get 3, count ’em, 3. and this system replaces the missing characters by giving the characters you have more functions.
anyway, thats what i think, its does not make the game any easier, or any harder.
There was nothing new about the gameplay other than the fact that the camera angle could be changed on the world map, which just goes back to the graphics and ???visually appealing??? comments I made before, so I won???t bother touching on that.
So, with all that said you???re probably thinking something along the line of ???yeah, well it???s the most popular FF so how can it suck smart guy?!??? The answer to that is simple. First of all, the game was marketed to all hell. It was the first Final Fantasy, or role playing game for that matter, that I remember actually seeing ads for on the TV. There may have been others but the marketing was nowhere near the magnitude put into that of FFVII. Basically Square showed all of the in-game movies during the ads on TV. It was meant to draw in an audience, new people who had never even played RPG???s or had the mindset of ???RPG???s are for nerds???. On top of that, the game was incredibly easy, like I said, so when someone new picked up the controller he or she was not met with a challenge, but rather a nice easy game that required no thought at all.
this is true at the begining. all games are easy at the beginging, so that when someone new to it starts playing, they can get used to it. later in the game, bad guys get harder, and puzzles get harder.
this game was marketed more than the others, but i don’t think square would of done this for no reason, they probably saw something in the game, an thought it was worth advertising.
advertising is what reeled me in. but what made me like the game, was the gameplay and how fun it was to play. you obviously didn’t enjoy this game at all. i did. thats i why i believe it is a good game, and you believe its a bad game because you did not enjoy playing it. and thats really all there is too it.
As if that weren???t enough, Square also released the official strategy guide, as well. Not only did this help boost the money brought in by the game, due to the fact that it was being sold, but it added another group to the hordes of buyers because it meant that they didn???t even have to think AT ALL while playing the game. Just flip from page to page until the game was done.
yeah….that has nothing to do with the game play of the game, i personaly have never used any strategy guide while playing that game, thats only because i believe if you use a strategy guide, your basicaly cheating. and it takes all the fun out of the game.
yeah, but that was an odd thing you decided to throguh in, has nothing to do with making it a bad game, or a good game.
For all of you who believe the game is impossible without some sort of walkthrough I have a tidbit of info I would like to share. Keep in mind it is not to brag, I wouldn???t bother bragging over a game as poor as FFVII, it is only meant to help illustrate my point. When I first played FFVII I didn???t use a strategy guide. I completed the game 100% on my own. Then a family member got me one just because, I still don???t know why. I decided I might as well go back through with it and see if there was anything I missed. Know what I missed? Two treasure chests. One had a Phoenix Down in it and the other had an Elixir. I hope that will serve as proof that you do not need a strategy guide to play this game because it IS NOT a hard game to play.
yeah…thats called showing off…or rather insulting people who did use it. some people did have a problem playing the game. it may be in a subtle way, but it was an insulting comment, not needed.
technically it is a fact that you don’t need a strategy guide to play the game, but if some one is stuck real bad, it is a useful tool, and it is also your opinion that you don’t "need" it, because some people did.
Now, back to what I was saying. Because the game was incredibly easy to play/beat, had a very shallow story line (making it very easy to follow), was marketed more than any game previously, and had graphics that were superior to anything at the time (which helped cover up the crappiness of the game), Final Fantasy VII was a huge success. This game was <I>not</I> a smash hit due to being a good game, because it wasn???t a good game. It was a smash hit because nobody knew any better at the time. That???s why it makes me sick that there are so many fanboys and fangirls out there in regards to this game. If you???re going to prattle on about how you love Final Fantasy then fine, but at least do so over a decent game in the series.
wow! this entire ending paragraph is all opinion.
I thought it was a decent game (actualy better). we are back to that paradox again, 2 opposing facts. how is this possible?
anyway, how do you define a good game? is it how enjoyabe a game is? or the quality of it?
the only way you can argue about the quality, would be the graphics. and he already addmited that the graphics were superior to other games at the time. so then he must be talking about how enjoyable the game was.
yes folks, he is. but i enjoyed the game, and he didn’t, and he wants me to believe its a fact that this game was not enjoyable. he is not going to sway my opinion. do you know why? because i have played the game, and i have discovered that i enjoyed the game.
this entire thing is like a reveiw. only its a reveiw about something we have already played. do you know why i read reveiws? because i want to know if i should play that game or not, see if its bad or good. and once i play the game, i make my own opinion about it.
I’m not sure what he wants to accomplish by this thread. no ones opinion will be swayed. they have already played the game, and have already made their opinion.
I’d just like to see you try to have a debate without opinions in it. Such a thing does not exist. In a debate, you state your opinion and give factual evidence to support it. If there’s no opinion, there’s nothing to prove.
Also, when RM referred to fanboys, he didn’t mean just people who like the game. In that case, I am a "fanboy," and I’m actually arguing against the game. What RM meant by fanboys was people who obsess over the game and people who just came in here and attemted to say that RM, Smokey, and Prak are just trying to force their opinions on everyone and then resorted to name-calling. Just look through the thread. Look at how some of the fanboys and fangirls have behaved themselves. THAT is what RM was talking about, not about people liking the game.
what i ment by opinion, was that, you can’t just say "the limit system was flawed". there is no way to back that up, i enjoyed the limit system, i didn’t believe it was flawed. a better word then opinion, might be "subjective".
For one thing, some opinions are better than others. Some people put more thought into their opinions and have stronger justifications for them. Case in point: Is the opinion of a person who arbitrarily decides that Cleveland is the earthly manifestation of God equal to the opinion of a Jew, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist? Of course not.
Now, continuing on, I knew Cait Sith was working for Shinra straight away because of how forceful his introduction was. Aeris’ death was heavily foreshadowed, so I had given her about 50/50 odds of surviving the game. Naturally, I was not shocked when she died.
how? Aries died to save the planet, and those 2 mages died to save the party. whats the difference here? he might of thought it was not as much of a shock, but thats cause he is psychic, and once more, its opinion.
Did she die to save the planet? Did her death even matter? People are constantly disputing that on this very forum. The game didn’t give enough information to come up with a definitive answer, so saying that is just silly fanboyism.
its as shallow as a good movie can be, unless you want some stuff hidden so that you might not find out some part of the story. @_@. there really isn’t much else methods of expressing the story line, besides conversation. and it does have twists and turns, and thats about all you can hope for.
Of course the story is largely going to be told through dialogue. However, the game’s dialogue was so unambiguous that you had to give it no thought at all. Instead of developing, big chunks of the plot were just dropped in your lap. It’s a cheap shortcut in the writing.
well, this is even more opinion. He Believes that it is Flawed. but what if the game designers did that to add more of a challenge to playing. i had no problam with the limit system. it was fine. i will admit i had to deal with saving it. but thats whats called a CHALLENGE.
That makes no sense. Any sane designer would make a game challenging by normal means, not by making an unnecessarily frustrating system. A limit break is supposed to be a special attack your characters build up, sort of like a reward. But what kind of reward limits your options?
ok he says it is not a mark of a challenge game….then why do you have a problem with it? what makes it anouying if it isn’t a challenge? what he calls a flaw is what i call a challenge.
The problem is that it’s an unnecessary annoyance that makes no sense at all in context of the gameplay.
yeah, but the game is still a challenge, you have a limited amount of slots, so you can’t learn EVERY ability in the game. it just allows you to take ablitys that some one else has, and give it to the character your using
You forgot to add, "Thereby removing all individual value from your characters." There is absolutely no reason to use more than the same three characters throughout most of the game. The other characters are just along for the ride. Very bad design.
i liked it because it allowed me to pick favorites, and i got to use my favorite characters with the right abilitys.
I hated it because all the characters should be useful, but it made the ones I preferred less completely worthless.
but still it was his opinion that it was less of a challenge.
Are you trying to say that having to carefully select your party and work within the limitations of that selection would NOT be more challenging? If so, you should pack your bags and go home now, because that will completely ruin your credibility.
before i go on. you said you didn’t bash final fantasy fans, but right there you called them simpletons.
Don’t distort what people say please. He said the game was designed for simpletons, not that the people who liked it are simpletons. There is a difference, although the behavior of many FF7 fans in this thread has made it a bit blurry.
anywho. you said that every damn member can have the exact same materia. almost true, like spells, and command materia can be bought, but materia that matters in big battles, are usualy summons, which are uniqe.
Never mind the fact that a mastered materia spawns another just like it?
also, they can not be a functioning unit if not all of your characters are in the battle. i don’t know if you got to battle with all you characters in FFV or FFVI,and all the other classics. but thats not a functioning unit, if your white mage is off somewhere else, and you need to cure some one, or if you black mage is off somewhere else, and your going against am guy that is weak against magic, then that isn’t a functioning unit, thats a disaster waiting to happen.
That is a challenge. Party selection is important in those games, unlike FF7.
anyway, thats what i think, its does not make the game any easier, or any harder.
As I have shown, you’re dead wrong.
this is true at the begining. all games are easy at the beginging, so that when someone new to it starts playing, they can get used to it. later in the game, bad guys get harder, and puzzles get harder.
Start to finish, there was no challenge in FF7. If anything, it got easier as the game progressed.
this game was marketed more than the others, but i don’t think square would of done this for no reason, they probably saw something in the game, an thought it was worth advertising.
Actually, they just had money to invest in advertising, which in turn sold more units. That’s how businesses work.
advertising is what reeled me in. but what made me like the game, was the gameplay and how fun it was to play. you obviously didn’t enjoy this game at all. i did. thats i why i believe it is a good game, and you believe its a bad game because you did not enjoy playing it. and thats really all there is too it.
You liking it doesn’t make it good. Ever seen the movie Kull the Conqueror? I loved it. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s an absolutely terrible movie.
yeah….that has nothing to do with the game play of the game, i personaly have never used any strategy guide while playing that game, thats only because i believe if you use a strategy guide, your basicaly cheating. and it takes all the fun out of the game.
That has to do with the game’s popularity though.
yeah…thats called showing off…or rather insulting people who did use it. some people did have a problem playing the game. it may be in a subtle way, but it was an insulting comment, not needed.
Bullshit. There was nothing insulting in his post. He was making a point about how easy the game was. Nothing more.
technically it is a fact that you don’t need a strategy guide to play the game, but if some one is stuck real bad, it is a useful tool, and it is also your opinion that you don’t "need" it, because some people did.
No one "needed" it. Any idiot can go from point A to point B, especially with the way the game spelled it out so clearly. The only way it could really help someone would be by pointing out the things they missed along the way, which were hardly needed to finish it.
I thought it was a decent game (actualy better). we are back to that paradox again, 2 opposing facts. how is this possible?
Read my little note at the beginning of this post on the value of opinions.
anyway, how do you define a good game? is it how enjoyabe a game is? or the quality of it?
Quality of design is the mark of a truly good game because it is constant. Enjoyability is a variable.
the only way you can argue about the quality, would be the graphics. and he already addmited that the graphics were superior to other games at the time. so then he must be talking about how enjoyable the game was.
So never mind the numerous arguments against its design quality? -10 credibility points for you.
yes folks, he is. but i enjoyed the game, and he didn’t, and he wants me to believe its a fact that this game was not enjoyable. he is not going to sway my opinion. do you know why? because i have played the game, and i have discovered that i enjoyed the game.
Or perhaps he didn’t care about swaying your opinion in the first place. Perhaps he only wanted to show that opinions and facts aren’t always the same.
this entire thing is like a reveiw. only its a reveiw about something we have already played. do you know why i read reveiws? because i want to know if i should play that game or not, see if its bad or good. and once i play the game, i make my own opinion about it.
I’m not sure what he wants to accomplish by this thread. no ones opinion will be swayed. they have already played the game, and have already made their opinion.
Bend over and spread your cheeks so people like Chorns can have their way with you.
what i ment by opinion, was that, you can’t just say "the limit system was flawed". there is no way to back that up, i enjoyed the limit system, i didn’t believe it was flawed.
It was backed up nicely, thank you.
i obviously agree, but all i ment by opinion is, you can’t argue about which food taste better, or something else "truely" subjective.
Now, continuing on, I knew Cait Sith was working for Shinra straight away because of how forceful his introduction was. Aeris’ death was heavily foreshadowed, so I had given her about 50/50 odds of surviving the game. Naturally, I was not shocked when she died.
thats nice, but still proves nothing. just because you are intuitive, and i am not, doesn’t mean that it was a shallow storyline, this might be hard to believe, but the shallowness of a storyline is subjective to the player.
if a genius alien came down and saw one of the hardest to understand, multilayered movies on the planet, and then said "oh i saw this part coming a mile away! what a shallow story line!" would that change the fact, that to you, it was a "good" quality movie? i doubt it.
Did she die to save the planet? Did her death even matter? People are constantly disputing that on this very forum. The game didn’t give enough information to come up with a definitive answer, so saying that is just silly fanboyism.
well, even if her death was in vain, that doesn’t prove that the other was more shocking or even sader. for an event to be sad, or to be shocking, the person playing the game has to have made a connection with the game, and started treating it like a good movie. RM had obviously decided the game was dumb before he got to that point, so he personaly decided that it wasn’t that sad or shocking.
that section of his debate was not fact, or even debatable opinion. its the same as which chocolate taste better? Hershey…or some other leading chocolate brand. just another subjective part of that post.
Of course the story is largely going to be told through dialogue. However, the game’s dialogue was so unambiguous that you had to give it no thought at all. Instead of developing, big chunks of the plot were just dropped in your lap. It’s a cheap shortcut in the writing.
this part i extremly disagree with. they didn’t just lay the story flat out, or tell you part of the story first, and tell you the other half later.
you can call anything "big chunks", but it if start to get more that 5 "big chunks", then your starting to reveal the story slowly and making it a nice plot.
for instance, at the begining, all you know is that (1) Mako Energy is made from the life stream of the earth, and Mako Reactors and sucking up the life stream, and soon the planet will die. An then later in the Shinra Building, you found out that (2) sepiroth was a top member of SOILDER and that he obviously went crazy (being you find the president of shinra dead). Later (3) Cloud tells the gang about what happened to make him go crazy. After that point, as you travel, you believe that sephiroth is a clone of JENOVA and that he is going to take him and his "mother" to the Promised Land. Later on, if you get Vincent, you find out that (4) Jenova is not Sephiroths "mother" and he wasn’t created like the rest of those monsters in those cases, Vincent Knew Sehiroths real mother ( I forgot her name). (5) In the Temple of the Ancients, you find out that Sephiroth is not going to the "Promised Land" but he plans to summon Meteor to create a wound in the Planet, large enough to suck up a ton of "Life Energy" so that some how he becomes this powerful being (i forget how, lol).(6) When you go to north Crater and some stuff happens and cloud has a mid life crisis and lots of other stuff (started to get tired listing the details) (7) Then when you get the submarine (or breed a blue, balck, or gold Chocobo) you find out that Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells while still in the whomb, being that he wasn’t an actual clone of Jenova, but more like other members of SOILDER (all members of SOILDER are injected with jenova cells, although not in the whomb.)…and some other stuff that really has to do with vincent more that the storyline.(i really haven’t played the game in a while, sorry if some of this stuff is a bit mixed up).
now tell how this is received in "big Chunks" through out the game, they slowly let you on to the story one peice at a time.
at least thats what i think, you might say these are "big Chunks" but i disagree.
That makes no sense. Any sane designer would make a game challenging by normal means, not by making an unnecessarily frustrating system. A limit break is supposed to be a special attack your characters build up, sort of like a reward. But what kind of reward limits your options?
Please define "flawed". if something is "flawed" then there is a problem with it. i had no problem with it. i played through out the game fine, with out a problem, so then… i guess its not flawed…at least for me.
I agree that it is a reward. Compared to the other game, it would be nice to be able to save your limit for later, but in this game, your supoused to just use your limit when it comes. if the other games didn’t exsist, you would be thinking these limits are pretty cool, and a nice reward. it may not be as good of a reward as the other ones, but its still a nice reward.
You forgot to add, "Thereby removing all individual value from your characters." There is absolutely no reason to use more than the same three characters throughout most of the game. The other characters are just along for the ride. Very bad design.
This is true that it removes the value of each character, but it doesn’t make the design any worse. Just because it has a bit different of a style, does not make it worse.
I hated it because all the characters should be useful, but it made the ones I preferred less completely worthless.
who says thats the way it "should" be? once more, its a just a bit different of a style.
Are you trying to say that having to carefully select your party and work within the limitations of that selection would NOT be more challenging? If so, you should pack your bags and go home now, because that will completely ruin your credibility.
lol
Materia selection has replaced character selection in FFVII.
you have to strategically pick out the right materia for battle, rather than strategically picking out your characters for battle.
it will not make it anymore challenging to have to pick out the right characters, than picking out the right materia, there i said it, now if this ruins my credibility or not, we shall see.
Don’t distort what people say please. He said the game was designed for simpletons, not that the people who liked it are simpletons. There is a difference, although the behavior of many FF7 fans in this thread has made it a bit blurry.
well, he just said that anyone who has said that the game was hard, was a simpleton. cause if it was designed for simpletons, then i must be simpleton, considering i thought the game was hard to beat.
its not called distorting, its called connecting the dots.
Never mind the fact that a mastered materia spawns another just like it?
i never actuly got to the point that i mastered a summon, but that would be odd if it spawned another. and if the others spawned, i personaly don’t care weather you got the materia from the store or if it was spwaned.
That is a challenge. Party selection is important in those games, unlike FF7.
Materia Selection is Important in FFVII, unlike the other ones.
As I have shown, you’re dead wrong.
dido
Start to finish, there was no challenge in FF7. If anything, it got easier as the game progressed.
lol, now that is just bullshit. you are now just trying to look cool, cause you think you are on a roll. the game did not get easier as it progressed.
as the story line, the difficulty of a game is subjective to the player.
Actually, they just had money to invest in advertising, which in turn sold more units. That’s how businesses work.
yes, it did sell more units, but did you have people giving it bad reveiws? even though you people didn’t enjoy it, there are alot of people out there who could make a religion off of this game, meaning the majority believes its a great game! it didn’t get popular because of advertising, it got popular because people loved it!
You liking it doesn’t make it good. Ever seen the movie Kull the Conqueror? I loved it. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s an absolutely terrible movie.
what made it a bad movie? and then what made you enjoy it? please elaborate, sounds like an odd oxymoron to me.
That has to do with the game’s popularity though.
ah yes, thank you. good to admit mistakes before they turn into a problem later.
Bullshit. There was nothing insulting in his post. He was making a point about how easy the game was. Nothing more.
ugh…once more. the difficulty of a game is subjective to the player. and those who had a problem playing it, are going to be insulted by that comment.
No one "needed" it. Any idiot can go from point A to point B, especially with the way the game spelled it out so clearly. The only way it could really help someone would be by pointing out the things they missed along the way, which were hardly needed to finish it.
i do agree that its a dumb thing to have, but some people do have a problem, there is no way around that. some people DID have a problem playing it.
Read my little note at the beginning of this post on the value of opinions.
i did, and i have displayed my thoughts about.
Quality of design is the mark of a truly good game because it is constant. Enjoyability is a variable.
ok, he already admited that the graphics are better. so are you talking about the script? well i enjoyed the script. very indepth. you may say the opposite, but then we are back into subjective matters. enjoyability is one of the main factors of making a game good or not.
So never mind the numerous arguments against its design quality? -10 credibility points for you.
hah! clever, you made a point system. good for you. but seriously, all the other matters are all subjective, you can say that the sript was bad, but i disagree, it was a good qaulity game script, you may say that the battle system was bad, but that is only cause you didn’t enjoy playing it, you were used to the old ones, and kept comparing it to them, i loved the battle system, extremely FUN to play! so wether the battle system is good or not must be part of the "enjoyability variable".
Or perhaps he didn’t care about swaying your opinion in the first place. Perhaps he only wanted to show that opinions and facts aren’t always the same.
wow, than we must have the same goal, but actually in one of these posts with that "unseen" fellow who said RM wouldn’t sway anyones opinion. RM said "i’m sure many peoples opinions have been swayed, they just haven’t talked up about it" or something to that effect.
Bend over and spread your cheeks so people like Chorns can have their way with you.
i know your just trying to look cool, but please elaborate when you have a come back. don’t just post something like that. express the meaning of it.
It was backed up nicely, thank you.
no it wasn’t…i have stated that i enjoyed it, and had no problem with it, so does that make it not flawed? RM had a problem and decided to call it "flawed". but he was compareing it to the older games. its a fine system.
what? you mean going in depth into a post and trying to disprove it step by step? the same thing i did to the first post?
please explain yourself? are trying to be serious about this thing? does my post truly blow your mind?
Oh goodie, such a stupid remark for me to get back into the groove of things with.
No, that’s not what overrated means. FFVII was one of the first games to feature these oh so great 3-D graphics for the Playstation. They were good at the time, but that’s not what made it so overrated. Sony and Square were looking to make sure that the Playstation made a huge bang in it’s early sales, so they started advertising the heck out of the game and covering it in just about every magazine you can possibly think of. What you are basically saying, is that a lot of people liked FFVII, even though he/she didn’t think it was a great game. You keep saying that it’s such a wonderful game, and then you go and say something like this. Overrated means simply this:
A game that is hyped and advertised to such a degree, that it vastly disappoints the masses when it gets released.
and if you complain about how many people like it. your complaining about people liking it.
And if you complain about how many people don’t like it, you’re complaining about people not liking it. Seriously, do you realize what you just said?
and because you shouldn’t put your on opinion into a debate, that would make this etnire thing a dumb debate.
Why are so many people stupid about this? The ENTIRE point of a debate is for people to share their opinion and to tell us why they believe what they do. It is impossible to have a debate without an opinion. Period.
when i first played it, i had no idea Cait Sith was working for Shinra,
You had no idea? I had a pretty good feeling that it was, and I got this feeling soon after Cait joined up with me. I can’t really give you direct quotes from the game, but some of the stuff he said and how he acted made me think that way. It’s like Square was trying to tell you something was up, but they did it in the wrong way and totally gave it away.
and Aries death was shocking to me.
Again, there wasn’t anything memorable about her death. I knew that she was going to die, because when she is there all by herself and all of a sudden Cloud and company shows up, something is going to happen. When she was killed, I thought "Well I knew that was coming".
how? Aries died to save the planet, and those 2 mages died to save the party. whats the difference here? he might of thought it was not as much of a shock, but thats cause he is psychic, and once more, its opinion.
Oh wow, you are bringing up one of my older points?
Aeris did not die to save the planet, she was killed. Palom and Porom killed themselves personally in order to save the party. That’s the difference right there. All Aeris’ death did was made Sephiroth’s blade a little less sharp.
there really isn’t much else methods of expressing the story line, besides conversation.
Oh believe me there are more than just words out of a character’s mouth. I seriously hope that you figure some out before you ask me what they are.
and it does have twists and turns, and thats about all you can hope for.
I want to see the proof. Show me the factual evidence that there are in fact twists and turns in the game.
actually..there is a few hidden parts of the story line. if you don’t get vincent, you wouldn’t figure out who Sephiroths mother was, and if you didn’t go behind that waterfall, you wouldn’t figure out how it happened.
You continue to say that there are a ‘few’ hidden parts and ‘many’ twists and turns, when you can only name one. If you go into the waterfall, what you find out isn’t anything worth mentioning to the storyline. It adds absolutely nothing and solves absolutely nothing.
He Believes that it is Flawed. but what if the game designers did that to add more of a challenge to playing. i had no problam with the limit system. it was fine. i will admit i had to deal with saving it. but thats whats called a CHALLENGE.
If a gaming company has to make a certain aspect of the game flawed to give some challenge to the game, then that is the mark of a game that doesn’t have a terrible amount of good qualities to begin with.
ok he says it is not a mark of a challenge game….then why do you have a problem with it? what makes it anouying if it isn’t a challenge? what he calls a flaw is what i call a challenge.
Yeah I know you aren’t talking to me specifically, but I’ll answer it still.
What makes the Materia System annoying is the fact that any one of your characters is capable of being the strongest in terms of physical or magical damage. Just load Tifa with Materia that boosts up her strength and watch out! Give Cid all the Materia that skyrockets magical damage and you have a deadly character. All of your characters shouldn’t be capable of doing the same exact damage in battle, that’s what makes it so crappy and annoying. Also, more along the lines of annoying; the more materia you equip usually means the more HP and strength you lose. So you would have to go out and fight to get more Exp. that you originally thought about doing. Oh yeah you got the Knights of the Round? So now after doing all that hard work, your next reward is that you can go fight for a couple of hours just to get back all that HP and strength that you lose when you equip it!
if your white mage is off somewhere else, and you need to cure some one, or if you black mage is off somewhere else, and your going against am guy that is weak against magic, then that isn’t a functioning unit, thats a disaster waiting to happen.
That’s what I really liked about the earlier Final Fantasy games. All your characters were pre-determined to fill a specific role, such as Healer or White Mage or Black Mage, etc. But in FFVII, any character could be designated as the one that heals the party. Any character could deal massive magical damage and become a Black Mage; all you have to do is push a few buttons here and there and voala! Materia equipped!
Meh, this is enough from me for now. I don’t feel like shredding other points at the moment.
No, that’s not what overrated means. FFVII was one of the first games to feature these oh so great 3-D graphics for the Playstation. They were good at the time, but that’s not what made it so overrated. Sony and Square were looking to make sure that the Playstation made a huge bang in it’s early sales, so they started advertising the heck out of the game and covering it in just about every magazine you can possibly think of. What you are basically saying, is that a lot of people liked FFVII, even though he/she didn’t think it was a great game. You keep saying that it’s such a wonderful game, and then you go and say something like this. Overrated means simply this:
A game that is hyped and advertised to such a degree, that it vastly disappoints the masses when it gets released.
well, if thats the case, then this game isn’t overrated, please provide proof that the masses were vastly dissapointed, there is still a large fanbase for it, and lots of people still believe it to be one of the greatest games of all time, then it wasn’t overrated.
And if you complain about how many people don’t like it, you’re complaining about people not liking it. Seriously, do you realize what you just said?
thank you for taking it out of context. i was just making the wording slowy be the same as something i said earlier to prove a point.
Why are so many people stupid about this? The ENTIRE point of a debate is for people to share their opinion and to tell us why they believe what they do. It is impossible to have a debate without an opinion. Period.
i have already responded to a statement similar to this, just read back on these few pages.
You had no idea? I had a pretty good feeling that it was, and I got this feeling soon after Cait joined up with me. I can’t really give you direct quotes from the game, but some of the stuff he said and how he acted made me think that way. It’s like Square was trying to tell you something was up, but they did it in the wrong way and totally gave it away.
prak said the exact same thing. once more, go back and reveiw what i said in reponse.
Again, there wasn’t anything memorable about her death. I knew that she was going to die, because when she is there all by herself and all of a sudden Cloud and company shows up, something is going to happen. When she was killed, I thought "Well I knew that was coming".
same as the other two. i already responded to this.
Oh wow, you are bringing up one of my older points?
Aeris did not die to save the planet, she was killed. Palom and Porom killed themselves personally in order to save the party. That’s the difference right there. All Aeris’ death did was made Sephiroth’s blade a little less sharp.
ugh…already responded to this aswell.
Oh believe me there are more than just words out of a character’s mouth. I seriously hope that you figure some out before you ask me what they are.
…Pictures? wtf are you talking about?
I want to see the proof. Show me the factual evidence that there are in fact twists and turns in the game.
you thought that Cloud was a high member of SOILDER and was war buddys with Sephiroth, then you find out that Cloud was not apart of SOILDER, his memories just merged with Zack’s. that is one, there are more though.
were you hoping for one of your main characters to betray you or something….oh wait, one did. @_@
You continue to say that there are a ‘few’ hidden parts and ‘many’ twists and turns, when you can only name one. If you go into the waterfall, what you find out isn’t anything worth mentioning to the storyline. It adds absolutely nothing and solves absolutely nothing.
eh. it tells you a bit more about sephiroth. its not needed, but that would be dumb if needed information was hidden.
i’ve named many twist and turns.
If a gaming company has to make a certain aspect of the game flawed to give some challenge to the game, then that is the mark of a game that doesn’t have a terrible amount of good qualities to begin with.
ack. the game designers probably weren’t thinking "i know, i’ll make the limit system flawed to make it harder!" i have already said, its not flawed, but a different style than the classics, and it seems that you guys just can’t handle that. @_@
Yeah I know you aren’t talking to me specifically, but I’ll answer it still.
What makes the Materia System annoying is the fact that any one of your characters is capable of being the strongest in terms of physical or magical damage. Just load Tifa with Materia that boosts up her strength and watch out! Give Cid all the Materia that skyrockets magical damage and you have a deadly character. All of your characters shouldn’t be capable of doing the same exact damage in battle, that’s what makes it so crappy and annoying. Also, more along the lines of annoying; the more materia you equip usually means the more HP and strength you lose. So you would have to go out and fight to get more Exp. that you originally thought about doing. Oh yeah you got the Knights of the Round? So now after doing all that hard work, your next reward is that you can go fight for a couple of hours just to get back all that HP and strength that you lose when you equip it!
dude, in the same paragraph, you just argued why the materia system was easy, and then you argued about how it was hard…@_@
but thanks for that idea to argue about. you see, you can’t just eqiup all the materia and go ‘watch out world! here i come" because it will bring you HP down, and your strength down. and if you actualy notice in the game, there are characters that suck at attacks in the first place, so it hints you to give a majority of the materia to them. and actualy, in the end, picking out characters does matter in FFVII, for reasons i just stated in this paragraph.
That’s what I really liked about the earlier Final Fantasy games. All your characters were pre-determined to fill a specific role, such as Healer or White Mage or Black Mage, etc. But in FFVII, any character could be designated as the one that heals the party. Any character could deal massive magical damage and become a Black Mage; all you have to do is push a few buttons here and there and voala! Materia equipped!
your point?, you are correct, but does this make the game design anyworse?
you would have to be stupid to pack every one with 1 certain kind of materia, and then later you will be wanting the other kind. so if anything, materia selection might be harder for your tiny minds. rather than just taking what you receive, you actualy have to startigicaly pick out the right materia for battle.
Meh, this is enough from me for now. I don’t feel like shredding other points at the moment.
lost of these points have already been "shredded" by prak, and i have already responded.
I could ask you to provide proof that it wasn’t overrated, but you wouldn’t be able to say anything other than it has a big fanbase. Overrating something can either have something to do with a big fanbase, or just a game that is supposed to be excellent but isn’t quite nearly as good as the makers of the game made it out to be. I’ll concede the fact that FFVII does have a pretty good size fanbase, but with all these several spin-offs that have come off lately, that’s the main reason that so many people are still attached to the game. Square knew that their ‘masterpiece’ was almost buried, so they decided to resurrect it two or three times over. I’m not saying that the game is overrated because of the amount of people who like/dislike the game. I’m saying it’s overrated for just about every other point I have made about the game that makes it a bad one.
ugh… already responded to this aswell.
No quit fucking complaining about it. Do you realize how many times I’ve had to repeat myself about the same points over and over again? Yeah it’s really boring and unexciting because fanboys can’t bring something new to the table, so that’s what I do when I present the information again.
…Pictures? wtf are you talking about?
You actually have to think outside the box a little bit dude. Yeah conversations between characters is the main way to describe or show the story to the character, but it’s not the only one either. I’m not saying that you see these methods in every single game, but there is still that realm of possibility in terms of music, flashbacks, emotions such as anger or love, etc. Again, you don’t see these in all games, but they can still be there.
you thought that Cloud was a high member of SOILDER and was war buddys with Sephiroth, then you find out that Cloud was not apart of SOILDER, his memories just merged with Zack’s. that is one, there are more though.
Yeah that is one, and a poor one at that. Again, Square did an awful job at trying to portray this sense of ‘whoa what did Cloud really do’, or ‘what was Cloud in his past life?’. It was so mangled and uncoordinated, and it was actually easy for players to miss this point while playing through for the first time.
eh. it tells you a bit more about sephiroth. its not needed, but that would be dumb if needed information was hidden.
Yeah it might tell you a little more like what his shoe size is, but if I have to go to some secret location on the world map to find needed information, I would prefer that than going there to find unneccessary info.
ack. the game designers probably weren’t thinking "i know, i’ll make the limit system flawed to make it harder!" i have already said, its not flawed, but a different style than the classics, and it seems that you guys just can’t handle that. @_@
No, you said that Rabid Monkey thinks it’s flawed, and then you said that you find that flaw to be a challenge. It’s quite simple to notice that really. There is nothing that I can’t handle about your statement when you pretty clearly said that you find the flawed materia system to be a challenge.
dude, in the same paragraph, you just argued why the materia system was easy, and then you argued about how it was hard…@_@
Uh, no, not really. There is nothing hard about the materia system. I said that it is really annoying and all that. You equip the Materia, fight random encounters for a while, and then you are good to advance to the next part of the game. Equip a lot of Materia, expect to fight a lot of random encounters to get back all that HP and strength. It says nowhere in that paragraph about me contradicting myself. I hate the Materia system, because it is such a double-edged sword. The more you equip, the more spells and such you can use, but the less HP and strength you have. So essentially, it may make it easier for you to defeat enemies with your new skills, but they can do the same to you.
your point?, you are correct, but does this make the game design anyworse?
I made my point. Every character shouldn’t be capable of being every type of fighter, whether it be a White or Black Mage, Thief, whatever. Characters should only have one or two, and in some rare cases, three different fighting styles that they can be great at.
lost of these points have already been "shredded" by prak, and i have already responded.
Even if you have already responded, I repeat myself plenty of times and I don’t get tired of it.
i respond to every part of the post (in the same order as the original post), but just insert my responses along the way. they are the ones picking out bits and pieces, at least smokey did that.
I decided to pick out bits and pieces because it had been quite a while since I actually posted in this thread. It would have taken me a few hours to respond to every single post that I actually wanted to, but I didn’t have the nerve to do it this time.
No, that’s not what overrated means. FFVII was one of the first games to feature these oh so great 3-D graphics for the Playstation. They were good at the time, but that’s not what made it so overrated. Sony and Square were looking to make sure that the Playstation made a huge bang in it’s early sales, so they started advertising the heck out of the game and covering it in just about every magazine you can possibly think of. What you are basically saying, is that a lot of people liked FFVII, even though he/she didn’t think it was a great game. You keep saying that it’s such a wonderful game, and then you go and say something like this. Overrated means simply this:
A game that is hyped and advertised to such a degree, that it vastly disappoints the masses when it gets released.Oh goodie, such a stupid remark. Well done, you just gave the definition for "overhyped" instead, which is something completely different from overrated. You need to read a dictionary before making-up ridiculous definitions like that. Here’s what "overrated" really means:
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
And who exactly is rating FFVII too highly? That’s right, the millions of fans out there are the ones rating it too highly because that’s how much they love it. For someone who doesn’t love it, it would be an overrated game. For someone who does love it, it wouldn’t be overrated. It’s a simple concept and not something that’s hard to understand yet many of you guys just don’t get it.
Why are so many people stupid about this? The ENTIRE point of a debate is for people to share their opinion and to tell us why they believe what they do. It is impossible to have a debate without an opinion. Period.Wrong. That’s not true at all. Real debates are always objective and based on FACT, with both factions trying to prove the other wrong, and there’s always a fact that everyone can agree on by the end of it. A good example of objective debates would be threads discussing facts regarding the events that took place in a story.
A subjective debate based on opinion isn’t something I consider to be a useful debate, because there can never be a fact for everyone to agree on, there simply isn’t any objective to such a debate. You’re arguing that FFVII is a bad game and trying to convince everyone of it but it’s obvious there will never be an answer everyone can agree on and no matter what anyone says, no one will change their views on the game. This is why it’s a pointless debate, which is what many have been trying to say all along, but some of you just won’t accept it and still continue pointlessly bashing the game and trying to convince everyone that all your OPINIONS are fact and continue dictating to everyone else that they should believe FFVII is a bad game. Sorry buddies but you’re not convincing anyone other than yourselves. Even many of the FFVII fanboys here are smart enough to tell this debate is too subjective, so why is it so hard for most of you FFVII haters to grasp this basic concept? Clanotheduck has been repeating this point so many times yet you guys choose to disregard it just to make it look like you’re right and his wrong. Sorry to break it to you but there is no right or wrong to a subjective debate like this, only shallow-minded people would think like that. Most of your points have recently been little more than opinions. You say your backing up your opinion with facts but all I see is just more and more opinions. It just doesn’t make any sense to try and prove you’re right if there is no right or wrong to this debate.
Again, there wasn’t anything memorable about her death. I knew that she was going to die, because when she is there all by herself and all of a sudden Cloud and company shows up, something is going to happen. When she was killed, I thought "Well I knew that was coming".Although I was quite touched by it, it didn’t bring tears to my eyes either… but that doesn’t change the fact that millions were in tears during that scene, regardless of what we think of it. If it managed to touch millions of fans and be very memorable for them, then there is nothing you can do to make them believe otherwise.
Aeris did not die to save the planet, she was killed. Palom and Porom killed themselves personally in order to save the party. That’s the difference right there. All Aeris’ death did was made Sephiroth’s blade a little less sharp.Wrong again. You should play the game again before making a remark like that. Aeris’ death wasn’t simply to save the party, it was to save the PLANET. That’s the difference right there. Aeris was the one that helped prevent the meteor from destroying the planet. If she hadn’t sacrificed herself, the planet would’ve been wounded by the meteor in the ending. Aeris’ death was much more crucial to the plot than Palom and Porom’s deaths.
Overrating something can either have something to do with a big fanbase, or just a game that is supposed to be excellent but isn’t quite nearly as good as the makers of the game made it out to be.Allow me to correct this statement:
Overrating something can either have something to do with a big fanbase, or just a game that is supposed to be excellent but isn’t quite nearly as good as the fans of the game made it out to be.
Yeah that is one, and a poor one at that. Again, Square did an awful job at trying to portray this sense of ‘whoa what did Cloud really do’, or ‘what was Cloud in his past life?’. It was so mangled and uncoordinated, and it was actually easy for players to miss this point while playing through for the first time.So you’re basically saying this part was somewhat difficult to understand? If so, then I agree with you.
Yeah it might tell you a little more like what his shoe size is, but if I have to go to some secret location on the world map to find needed information, I would prefer that than going there to find unneccessary info.Unnecessary? It reveals Sephiroth’s REAL mother and proves that Jenova cannot be his real mother, that’s what it’s doing. The scene in the Nibelheim basement reveals HOW Cloud was infused with Mako and lost many memories, how he inherited Zack’s memories and abilites, and how he got his sword and ended up in Midgar. If you think those are unnecessary then that’s obviously because you couldn’t care less about the story, which you don’t.
Uh, no, not really. There is nothing hard about the materia system. I said that it is really annoying and all that. You equip the Materia, fight random encounters for a while, and then you are good to advance to the next part of the game. Equip a lot of Materia, expect to fight a lot of random encounters to get back all that HP and strength. It says nowhere in that paragraph about me contradicting myself. I hate the Materia system, because it is such a double-edged sword. The more you equip, the more spells and such you can use, but the less HP and strength you have. So essentially, it may make it easier for you to defeat enemies with your new skills, but they can do the same to you.Although I respect your opinion there… it looks like you just contradicted yourself again with that last sentence… It’s like you’re saying it makes it easier but harder. You seriously need to make your mind up, because what you just said there makes no sense.
I made my point. Every character shouldn’t be capable of being every type of fighter, whether it be a White or Black Mage, Thief, whatever. Characters should only have one or two, and in some rare cases, three different fighting styles that they can be great at.Like clanotheduck has already said, character selection has been REPLACED by materia selection, eliminating the need to change characters. A similar system to this was used in FFIII, FFV, FFX-2, and FF Tactics, commonly known as the job system. The job system is regarded by many to be the best development system in the series. In the job system, something like character selection doesn’t even exist, yet it was still highly praised because of the CUSTOMIZATION it offers. The materia system followed in FFV’s footsteps by offering more customisation by eliminating character selection and replacing it with an ability system similar to the job system. It offers a lot more variety and customisation than FFIV or FFVI because of this reason, along with a different style of strategy. Whether this suits your tastes is upto you. If you don’t like this style of play then it’s fine expressing your opinions of it but it’s pointless to try convincing FFVII fans that it’s rubbish if it’s obvious they already like it.
Smokey is doing a good job at hitting everything, but I do want to add something. If Square wanted to make FFVII’s materia system allow you to use any character for any purpose, why didn’t they just make the story operate like FFIV, where you never have more people in your party than the maximum number that can fight in battle? To me, that would have made more sense than having six characters sitting around twiddling their thumbs. The writers could have done a lot more with a story that allows characters to come and go, as well. Really, it is a waste to have nine characters when you only need three, and when it only makes sense to have three.Although you may have a point that having more than three doesn’t do much for the gameplay, it does add to the story just like it does to any other RPG. More characters means more background story, which is a good thing not a bad thing, unless it’s too many characters that is. It also lets you just stick with the three you like most without being forced to use characters you don’t like just because they have the abilities you need. Again, it’s all a matter of taste when it comes down to it.
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
Wow, you are wrong. A game being overhyped or overrated basically mean the same thing. Hype deals more with advertising or whatever before the game is even released, and rated deals more with after the game is released and people are able to get their hands on the product. Actually, I can make the argument that overhyped and overrated mean the same thing, but I’ll spare you that one. And your definition of overrated is essentially the same as mine, give or take a few words. But if we are going to argue about who said which definition is correct, then we are both wasting our times.
And who exactly is rating FFVII too highly? That’s right, the millions of fans out there are the ones rating it too highly because that’s how much they love it. For someone who doesn’t love it, it would be an overrated game. For someone who does love it, it wouldn’t be overrated. It’s a simple concept and not something that’s hard to understand yet many of you guys just don’t get it.
It’s not as a simple concept as you think. There are plenty, plenty of games that I don’t like but I don’t consider to be overrated. There are also games that I love that I would argue to be overrated. Your statement is flawed really. Just because I don’t like a game doesn’t mean that it is overrated or not.
Wrong. That’s not true at all. Real debates are always objective and based on FACT, with both factions trying to prove the other wrong, and there’s always a fact that everyone can agree on by the end of it. A good example of objective debates would be threads discussing facts regarding the events that took place in a story.
While I agree with you here, a debate such as this one isn’t always objective and based on facts because, quite frankly, there have been a lot of people passing through here just to say the game is good or not, and then to not provide any factual proof to help with their statements.
You’re arguing that FFVII is a bad game and trying to convince everyone of it but it’s obvious there will never be an answer everyone can agree on and no matter what anyone says, no one will change their views on the game.
No one will change their views on the game, really? Well there have been several people who have either loved/really liked the game, that after reading mine and a few other’s posts against the game, have actually changed their opinion of FFVII.
This is why it’s a pointless debate, which is what many have been trying to say all along, but some of you just won’t accept it and still continue pointlessly bashing the game and trying to convince everyone that all your OPINIONS are fact and continue dictating to everyone else that they should believe FFVII is a bad game.
Technically, you could say that every debate is pointless, but it’s still fun for me to participate in them even if I am not doing a good job of contributing to it.
No, many have been saying it’s a pointless debate because the majority of these people love FFVII and don’t want to hear a single negative word about their perfect game. If someone started bashing my favorite game, I wouldn’t go around saying it’s a pointless debate just because I don’t want to read what they have to say. Heck, I would stand up for it as much as I could and try to prove them wrong. We have supplied FAR MORE facts than the people who are sticking up for the game. The fans of the game are the ones that are trying to convince us that their opinions are fact and that we should believe FFVII to be the greatest game ever. You are sorely missing a lot of points.
Sorry to break it to you but there is no right or wrong to a subjective debate like this, only shallow-minded people would think like that.
Then why are you here, seriously? I could care less if you think I’m a shallow-minded person. I’m here to share my opinions about FFVII, and if need be I’ll bring up more points.
Most of your points have recently been little more than opinions. You say your backing up your opinion with facts but all I see is just more and more opinions.
Yes that is true, so some degree. This thread has been going on for such a long time, that I, and maybe others, are tired of rehashing the same thing over and over again. But if someone was to actually demand me to see facts about earlier points I’ve made, then I’ll gladly support them. Until they get upset about my opinions and want proof, then that’s all I’m going to supply, because I’ve done it before and done a much better job than most.
but that doesn’t change the fact that millions were in tears during that scene, regardless of what we think of it. If it managed to touch millions of fans and be very memorable for them, then there is nothing you can do to make them believe otherwise.
Oh, so there were millions of people that have cried during this scene? Now this is where I want to see proof until I believe it to be a fact. And don’t even try to turn this around on me; I’m not saying that there weren’t that many people that cried. But you are the one that brought it up, so you have to supply the evidence.
Unnecessary? It reveals Sephiroth’s REAL mother and proves that Jenova cannot be his real mother, that’s what it’s doing. The scene in the Nibelheim basement reveals HOW Cloud was infused with Mako and lost many memories, how he inherited Zack’s memories and abilites, and how he got his sword and ended up in Midgar. If you think those are unnecessary then that’s obviously because you couldn’t care less about the story, which you don’t.
Finally, we have a smart one here!
Yes, I consider it to be unnecessary to the story of the game. But I also believe that the story is pretty bad, as illustrated in previous posts. This information is still pretty irrelevant to the story though. Yeah, Aeris ‘supposedly’ being the last Ancient (HEY ANOTHER PART OF THE STORY THAT WAS COORDIANTED PRETTY BAD) is more important than these two.
Although I respect your opinion there… it looks like you just contradicted yourself again with that last sentence… It’s like you’re saying it makes it easier but harder. You seriously need to make your mind up, because what you just said there makes no sense.
I really don’t think I’m contradicting myself at all. I found nothing hard about the Materia System in terms of how it works and how to use it properly. It was actually rather simple for me to figure out how to get it going and maintain it.
The materia system followed in FFV’s footsteps by offering more customisation by eliminating character selection and replacing it with an ability system similar to the job system. It offers a lot more variety and customisation than FFIV or FFVI because of this reason, along with a different style of strategy.
Yeah it does offer customization, but way too much. I mean seriously, there is no diversity in characters if every single one of them is capable of having extremely similar stats.
Although you may have a point that having more than three doesn’t do much for the gameplay, it does add to the story just like it does to any other RPG.
How does having only three playable characters at a time add to a story?
And again the diversity and roles of the characters are not defined by their stats in FF7, they are instead defined by the weapons they use, their fighting style, their limit breaks, and whether they are good or bad with materia.\
And for Aeris’ Death Scene take a look at the polls people have made pertaining to it or tear jerking moments in general and most people in those polls have said "I Cried at Aeris’ death" or "I was deeply and emotionally moved by Aeris’ death" ask people who have played the game and the majority of them will tell you similar things. but since that would take too much time, check the polls for your proof.
Speaking of proof I did post the mathematical formula for damage dealt in FF7 just as you asked since you wanted proof and all incase you missed it.
It’s not as a simple concept as you think. There are plenty, plenty of games that I don’t like but I don’t consider to be overrated.You clearly haven’t understood my point, I was talking specifically about FFVII, not about gaiming as a whole. But since you bring it up, the games that are labelled "overrated" are only the ones that are being praised highly by a majority of people. A game that isn’t praised highly would never be labelled as being overrated regardless of how rubbish it is.
There are also games that I love that I would argue to be overrated. Your statement is flawed really. Just because I don’t like a game doesn’t mean that it is overrated or not.What you’ve just said is very contradictory. You say you think a game is great but then proceed to say it’s overrated. If you think a game is great why should you think it’s overrated? There is no logic to such a statement. The question of whether a game is overrated or not is a very subjective question. There is no factual answer to such a question. One person might think it’s overrated, while another will think it’s not overrated. That’s an immediate contradiction right there. Both of these views contradict each other because it’s a subjective question. Different people have different tastes in what they want from a game. There is no correct answer to a subjective debate and if you think you can squeeze out an answer that everyone will agree on, then you are sorely wrong.
While I agree with you here, a debate such as this one isn’t always objective and based on facts because, quite frankly, there have been a lot of people passing through here just to say the game is good or not, and then to not provide any factual proof to help with their statements.Proof? Proof for why a game is enjoyable? Proof is required for facts, not for opinions. The question of whether a game is enjoyable is a subjective question with no correct answer, therefore it doesn’t need proof. Some people thought FFX-2 was rubbish and others thought it was superb. How can you justify such a contradiction and how can you prove which faction is correct? You can’t. What an opinion does need however is the specific things the person enjoyed/hated about the game so it would be helpful for others to understand why the game is liked/hated by that person. Proof is the wrong word to use for a subjective debate. But other than that, I agree that it is pointless just saying a game is good and not being specific about what they liked about it.
No one will change their views on the game, really? Well there have been several people who have either loved/really liked the game, that after reading mine and a few other’s posts against the game, have actually changed their opinion of FFVII.Well maybe you have swayed some FFVII fans into thinking differently about the game on rare occasions… but have you actually managed to convince any of them into thinking it’s a BAD game? That’s highly unlikely unless your psychic.
Technically, you could say that every debate is pointless, but it’s still fun for me to participate in them even if I am not doing a good job of contributing to it.Except the ones that are based on FACT, not opinions like this particular one… but hey I guess I am kinda contradicting myself by participating in it myself… but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a pointless (solution-less) debate.
No, many have been saying it’s a pointless debate because the majority of these people love FFVII and don’t want to hear a single negative word about their perfect game. If someone started bashing my favorite game, I wouldn’t go around saying it’s a pointless debate just because I don’t want to read what they have to say.All you have proved with this point is that the FFVII haters here are much more egotistic than the FFVII fanboys… and this thread pretty much proves it.
Heck, I would stand up for it as much as I could and try to prove them wrong. We have supplied FAR MORE facts than the people who are sticking up for the game. The fans of the game are the ones that are trying to convince us that their opinions are fact and that we should believe FFVII to be the greatest game ever. You are sorely missing a lot of points.Prove what wrong? The only things you can prove wrong are the technical aspects of the game such as the graphics, complexity, customisation, variety, flow, content, depth and things like that, those are what can be argued objectively. The things you can’t prove wrong is how enjoyable, interesting or involving a game is. If by factual proof you meant the technical aspects of the game then it would make a lot more sense.
Then why are you here, seriously? I could care less if you think I’m a shallow-minded person. I’m here to share my opinions about FFVII, and if need be I’ll bring up more points.What I mean by pointless debate is that it won’t have an answer, that’s what I mean about it being pointless. There is no answer to whether the game is good or bad because it will be different to each person’s perspective. If your sharing your opinions of it then thats fine by me but the only things you can actually prove are the technical aspects of the game, which is pretty much what I was planning to do here.
Oh, so there were millions of people that have cried during this scene? Now this is where I want to see proof until I believe it to be a fact. And don’t even try to turn this around on me; I’m not saying that there weren’t that many people that cried. But you are the one that brought it up, so you have to supply the evidence.I didn’t say cried, I said tears. It bought tears to the eyes of millions, which means that they almost cried. And the millions part was a rough estimation, not a fact, but it’s obvious that’s the scene that moved the majority of people according to many polls.
Yes, I consider it to be unnecessary to the story of the game. But I also believe that the story is pretty bad, as illustrated in previous posts. This information is still pretty irrelevant to the story though.Tsugaru has explained this point better than I did. But just to elaborate on it, you need to actually have an interest in the game to be bothered to go find those hidden scenes. If your not even interested in the story in the first place then those scenes would be meaningless to you. Those hidden scenes are for the people that actually have an interest in the story, not for those that don’t.
Yeah, Aeris ‘supposedly’ being the last Ancient (HEY ANOTHER PART OF THE STORY THAT WAS COORDIANTED PRETTY BAD) is more important than these two.In what way was it badly co-ordinated? Please explain.
I really don’t think I’m contradicting myself at all. I found nothing hard about the Materia System in terms of how it works and how to use it properly.I was referring to the last sentence when you said it’s easier to beat the enemies and it’s easier for them to beat you. That part makes no sense at all.
It was actually rather simple for me to figure out how to get it going and maintain it.I actually prefer a system that takes less learning to get used to. I find it quite annoying having to go through many tutorials before getting into the game. A system that offers a lot of flexibility while taking less time to get used to is a big plus for me.
Yeah it does offer customization, but way too much. I mean seriously, there is no diversity in characters if every single one of them is capable of having extremely similar stats.And that’s exactly what I think is great about the materia system. The same thing you hate about it is the same thing I like about it, it has a lot of customisation as a result of sacrificing character diversity (in gameplay terms). It’s also no coincidence that I am a pretty big fan of the job system, so its natural for me to prefer the materia system over one that has less customisation (character selection).
How does having only three playable characters at a time add to a story?Read it again, I said "having MORE than three" "adds to the story".
Wow.
You think that overhype comes solely from publishers and developers? And you think overrate comes solely from fans? Seriously, before you say something like that, think about it next time, mmmkay. Just take Halo 2 for example; one of the most hyped games in history, definately as of late. The hype didn’t just come from the people who made the game. In fact, I’d say it came mostly from the fans who were dying to try the game online. Halo was so hyped up, so that just made for more hype with Halo 2. When a game is overrated, it means that there are far too many people liking it when they really shouldn’t be. When a game is overhyped, it means that there are vast expectations for the game and it is supposed to be a great game.
What you’ve just said is very contradictory. You say you think a game is great but then proceed to say it’s overrated. If you think a game is great why should you think it’s overrated? There is no logic to such a statement.
No, it’s not contradictory. Again, I’ll use Halo 2 as an example. I love playing the game, very much because of online play even though there isn’t anything revolutionary about it. I just love doing it. But the game is overrated, was overhyped, and doesn’t deserve all the merits or attention that it gets. Yes, there are games that I think are great, but are overrated, such as this one. Pretty simple logic if you ask me.
Proof? Proof for why a game is enjoyable?
What in the world are you talking about now? If someone says that they like FFVII, then I’ll ask them why. If they say something like ‘CLOUD IS DA STRONGEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME’, and if I disagree, then I’ll ask them for proof. Or if they say that all characters are fully-developed, then I will definately ask for proof. I’m not asking them to prove to me why a game is enjoyable.
What an opinion does need however is the specific things the person enjoyed/hated about the game so it would be helpful for others to understand why the game is liked/hated by that person.
Hey, it seems like you are finally starting to understand what I’m trying to say. I don’t want to know if they liked the game or not, I want to know why.
Well maybe you have swayed some FFVII fans into thinking differently about the game on rare occasions… but have you actually managed to convince any of them into thinking it’s a BAD game? That’s highly unlikely unless your psychic.
I’m a prime example; I used to think it was a good game, but I was swayed over to the other side after taking a closer look at the game and reading what people had to say about the bad qualities of FFVII. Have you actually managed to sway anybody into thinking it’s a good game? I think not.
Except the ones that are based on FACT, not opinions like this particular one… but hey I guess I am kinda contradicting myself by participating in it myself… but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a pointless (solution-less) debate.
There have been facts provided in this thread and/or the other one, and I really don’t feel like searching through every post to find them. I’ve been here since they opened, so I would know more about it than you would. A lot more facts have been supplied by people who dislike the game than ones that do.
All you have proved with this point is that the FFVII haters here are much more egotistic than the FFVII fanboys… and this thread pretty much proves it.
How in the world do you manage to say I’m trying to accuse the FFVII haters of being more egotistical than everyone else? I mean really, nothing in there hints at that. Let me rephrase it so it is easier for you to understand:
I’d say over 95% of the people that have complained about this thread being pointless are ones that like/love the game. They say it’s a pointless thread, because most of them can’t supply any reasoning for why they like the game so much. They were drawn in when they first played it for no real reason, otherwise they would be able to tell us those reasons. It’s pointless to them, because they can’t argue or debate with us for the sole reason that they can’t back up anything they say, bar a select few.
It sounds to me as if you are saying that I have a big ego because I wouldn’t totally flip out if someone made a thread bashing my favorite game.
Prove what wrong? The only things you can prove wrong are the technical aspects of the game such as the graphics, complexity, customisation, variety, flow, content, depth and things like that, those are what can be argued objectively. The things you can’t prove wrong is how enjoyable, interesting or involving a game is. If by factual proof you meant the technical aspects of the game then it would make a lot more sense.
I’m not trying to prove if the game is enjoyable or not. Heck, I’d say that I didn’t find it that, but I can’t provide proof other than those words. And you just said it yourself. Graphics, content, etc. are things that can be proved wrong, and I’m sure that they have all been brought up before; can’t remember everything you know.
I didn’t say cried, I said tears. It bought tears to the eyes of millions, which means that they almost cried. And the millions part was a rough estimation, not a fact, but it’s obvious that’s the scene that moved the majority of people according to many polls.
Crying, tearing up. They are the same. And you seriously can’t come up with a rough estimation of millions of people from just some polls off one website. I would assume that not even 500 people have answered yes to that question from all these polls.
you need to actually have an interest in the game to be bothered to go find those hidden scenes. If your not even interested in the story in the first place then those scenes would be meaningless to you. Those hidden scenes are for the people that actually have an interest in the story, not for those that don’t.
I was interested enough the first time I played it to search them out, and even when I found them I still thought that they were pretty pointless. And I’m the type of gamer that will try to find everything possible in the game, no matter if I am interested in the story of the game or not.
I was referring to the last sentence when you said it’s easier to beat the enemies and it’s easier for them to beat you. That part makes no sense at all.
Oh now that actually has some merit to it, and I guess it’s a little difficult to understand my point.
When you equip Materia, you lose HP and strength, but your new powers or abilities will almost always make up for the loss in physical damage, and will usually make you capable of winning battles easier. Your enemies won’t have as much HP to take away from you as before, thus making it easier for them to kill you. But you can use your Materia to kill them off quicker than you used to before. So essentially, you could say that all the materia system does is speed up the flow of battles.
Read it again, I said "having MORE than three" "adds to the story".
Oh, ok. Missed one word.
Anyways, what I mean was, it seems like you are saying that having only three playable characters at a time adds to the story. Or maybe I’m just misinterpeting it altogether?
that shouldn’t influence your opinion at all, you see the way some one else acts about a matter doesn’t change the quality of the game.
i said what i said because it makes no sense for some to sway there opinion on this matter. please elaborate on what made you spasticaly believe that the materia system was bad system, when you didn’t believe this before. or on any other topic for that matter.
you see, you’ve played the game and decided that you liked playing with the materia system, or that that limit system wasn’t that bad. but now that some shmoe comes along and tells you otherwise, your just going to completely change your opinion on the matter? it makes no sense.
You two have done some of that, but not really enough for me to flame you for it. You’ve been pretty good about it. However, the way some of the other fans have acted was completely appalling. Debates ARE based entirely on opinion. A debate is using facts and drawing conclusions from those facts TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINION. Oh, and stop using that "taking my points out of context" argument. Rm, Smokey, and Prak read it first and then split it up so they can show which part of your post they’re responding to. They read all of the points in context first; they don’t split it up randomly and then read each section.
i believe that a debate is based on fact. if you have a debate BASED on opinion, then you wont get anywhere. i hope you realize what the definition of "based" is. its what everything else comes from, its the "base" of something. what you do with these facts is, you form an opinion around them, then show people what you came out with, and then show the parts of the facts that made you believe this. so a debate is obviously based on facts. it does invlove some opinion, but it is based on facts.
i’ve only used the "taking my points out of context" arguement once, and that was because it makes much more sense with the rest of the paragraph.
you see i could say that you said "this whole thing’s just a matter of opinion and Rabid Monkey, Smokey, and Prak haven’t really proven anything", which you did, but it was taken out of context. now your going to be angry because other people will think thats what you said.
that is why it is important to be sure that your opponant is showing the whole idea for the veiwers to see.
I’m not sure where you came up with the materia system and the limit system, or if you were just using those as opinions. But you are talking like it is impossible for a person to change their views on something, no matter how much evidence the other person supplies. That’s just ridiculous.
i believe that a debate is based on fact. if you have a debate BASED on opinion, then you wont get anywhere. i hope you realize what the definition of "based" is. its what everything else comes from, its the "base" of something. what you do with these facts is, you form an opinion around them, then show people what you came out with, and then show the parts of the facts that made you believe this. so a debate is obviously based on facts. it does invlove some opinion, but it is based on facts.
A debate always starts with two different opinions on the same matter, always. After the debate gets started and each person’s opinion is expressed and well known, that is when proof or facts are asked to be supplied by each of them. If one person can come up with a lot more facts than the other person, then some new guy strutting in, who takes the side of the guy who is ‘losing’ the debate, may lean more towards the first guy. It’s that simple.
we are basicaly saying the same thing. only i said that there are facts that your form an opinion around, and you said that there are opinions that you back up with facts. so…yeah…practically the same.
I’m not sure where you came up with the materia system and the limit system, or if you were just using those as opinions. But you are talking like it is impossible for a person to change their views on something, no matter how much evidence the other person supplies. That’s just ridiculous.
I’m trying to say that you can’t "back up" any of these points.
if you enjoyed the materia system, you would probably say it was a good system.
and now some guy comes along, telling that the materia system was bad, and that it was too easy. but you had PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (which is much better than some shmoe giving you "facts") with the game, and you decided that it was challenging for you, and that it was a good system.
so how are these "facts" going to change your personal experience that it was a challenging system? it shouldn’t. thats why it makes no sense.
your personal experience is much better proof of the quality of the game, than how some one else’s personal experience was.
A debate always starts with two different opinions on the same matter, always. After the debate gets started and each person’s opinion is expressed and well known, that is when proof or facts are asked to be supplied by each of them. If one person can come up with a lot more facts than the other person, then some new guy strutting in, who takes the side of the guy who is ‘losing’ the debate, may lean more towards the first guy. It’s that simple.
i agree…but when ever i say opinon, i’m talking about how good chocolate tastes. some people love it, some people hate it, no way to back it up either way. something as subjective as that…you can’t debate about. i’m trying to show how your people’s "flaws" are really just a different style. you see…i could say that the entire FF series was flawed, because i didn’t like how you could just randomly get into battles over and over (i’m comparing it to chrono trigger, and chrono cross.). you see, that is not a flaw, its a different style, and its my personal opinion that i didn’t like it. some one else might of liked it because it would allow them to keep battling and leveling up, when i just thought of it as anouying.
Hi. Don’t ignore the point I was making by saying something trivial.
Good job Captain Obvious. And since I can’t remember ever enjoying it, I still think it’s a bad system.
and now some guy comes along, telling that the materia system was bad, and that it was too easy. but you had PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (which is much better than some shmoe giving you "facts") with the game, and you decided that it was challenging for you, and that it was a good system.
Actually, in a debate, facts can mean a lot more that personal experience at certain times. And you seem to believe that there was a point in time in which I thought the Materia System was good, but then was persuaded it wasn’t because some guy came along and gave me a good enough argument that it isn’t. No, I’ve never liked the system, period, and I never thought it was a good system.
so how are these "facts" going to change your personal experience that it was a challenging system? it shouldn’t. thats why it makes no sense.
Again, you are trying to put words into my mouth. There is nothing challenging about the Materia System itself. The only thing I would consider a challenge, is all the fights that you have to get into to bring your depleted stats back up after you equip some Materia.
i agree…but when ever i say opinon, i’m talking about how good chocolate tastes. some people love it, some people hate it, no way to back it up either way.
While that is a good example of something you really can’t debate, it is totally different to what I’m trying to say.
FFVII can be debated, because there are so many different aspects about the game that you can argue about, just like any game.
you see, you’ve played the game and decided that you liked playing with the materia system, or that that limit system wasn’t that bad. but now that some shmoe comes along and tells you otherwise, your just going to completely change your opinion on the matter? it makes no sense.
My point was this: I used to think that FFVII was the best FF game in the series. I had played earlier and later FF games before, and the first I played was FFI, so I didn’t just think that because it was the first one I played. When I first saw this thread, I had just joined FF shrine. I argued with Smokey for a while, but I saw that there was truth to both sides of the argument. The ending of FFVII is simply incomplete. You never find out why Holy wasn’t working, or why the planet manages to save itself. Actually, I first said what you were saying about the materia system, that it was just a matter of opinion. Between then and now, I played through FFVI, beat FFI with all thieves, and started a game of FFV. It was then that I realized that the materia system makes things too easy for you. You don’t have to put any thought into which characters you choose, because they can all do everything. I still have fun using the materia system, but it really doesn’t force you to put much thought into what you’re doing. When you fight the elevator bosses at Shinra HQ, do you know what I do? I give lightning materia to every character and cast bolt over and over and over. The fight is incredibly easy. In FFI, you have to select your characters so that they will form a balanced party (unless you want to spend 8 hours levelling up in between every boss.) In FFII, you have to specialize your characters so that they can max out their stats in each ability and form of attack. In FFIV, your characters change almost constantly, so you have to keep learning how to make the best use of each character in battle. In FFV, you have to have your characters take jobs that will form a balanced party. In FFVI, you have to use your characters’ abilities and give them espers that will increase their stats the way you want them to while still learning magic. In FFVII, slap some materia on three characters, and you can beat all the bosses. In FFVIII, find out how to get the good magic, and your stats go through the roof, and all the bosses fall after two or three hits. That’s a very sudden drop in challenge. I think the materia system could have been very good if only certain people could use certain materia, but it instead removed any value put to the characters other than limit breaks, which became obsolete once you got KOTR. As for the limit system, I don’t really have much of a problem with it, so you can argue with the others about that. Anyway, my point was that I used to think FFVII was an incredibly good game; now I just think it was a pretty good game. I saw that their arguments were sound, so my opinion is different.
BTW clanotheduck, you’ve stopped accusing people of refusing to accept that people like the game and started arguing your point properly. Keep it up!
Actually, in a debate, facts can mean a lot more that personal experience at certain times. And you seem to believe that there was a point in time in which I thought the Materia System was good, but then was persuaded it wasn’t because some guy came along and gave me a good enough argument that it isn’t. No, I’ve never liked the system, period, and I never thought it was a good system.
Again, you are trying to put words into my mouth. There is nothing challenging about the Materia System itself. The only thing I would consider a challenge, is all the fights that you have to get into to bring your depleted stats back up after you equip some Materia.
well then…there was no opinion to be swayed! you started out thinking it was a bad system…so your opinion wasn’t swayed at all!
While that is a good example of something you really can’t debate, it is totally different to what I’m trying to say.
FFVII can be debated, because there are so many different aspects about the game that you can argue about, just like any game.
and i’m trying to show you that your "flaws" and what you think makes the game too easy, is really just a different style! some people think FPS are really easy, and others think they are hard. its a different style! the hardness of a game is subjective to the player.
a lot of aspects of a game is subjective.
Hi. Don’t ignore the point I was making by saying something trivial.
what the hell was your point? it seemed to me that the post was to prove my description of a debate wrong, and yours right. so i just came up with a comeback that your description was similar to mine.
My point was this: I used to think that FFVII was the best FF game in the series. I had played earlier and later FF games before, and the first I played was FFI, so I didn’t just think that because it was the first one I played. When I first saw this thread, I had just joined FF shrine. I argued with Smokey for a while, but I saw that there was truth to both sides of the argument. The ending of FFVII is simply incomplete. You never find out why Holy wasn’t working, or why the planet manages to save itself. Actually, I first said what you were saying about the materia system, that it was just a matter of opinion. Between then and now, I played through FFVI, beat FFI with all thieves, and started a game of FFV. It was then that I realized that the materia system makes things too easy for you. You don’t have to put any thought into which characters you choose, because they can all do everything. I still have fun using the materia system, but it really doesn’t force you to put much thought into what you’re doing. When you fight the elevator bosses at Shinra HQ, do you know what I do? I give lightning materia to every character and cast bolt over and over and over. The fight is incredibly easy. In FFI, you have to select your characters so that they will form a balanced party (unless you want to spend 8 hours levelling up in between every boss.) In FFII, you have to specialize your characters so that they can max out their stats in each ability and form of attack. In FFIV, your characters change almost constantly, so you have to keep learning how to make the best use of each character in battle. In FFV, you have to have your characters take jobs that will form a balanced party. In FFVI, you have to use your characters’ abilities and give them espers that will increase their stats the way you want them to while still learning magic. In FFVII, slap some materia on three characters, and you can beat all the bosses. In FFVIII, find out how to get the good magic, and your stats go through the roof, and all the bosses fall after two or three hits. That’s a very sudden drop in challenge. I think the materia system could have been very good if only certain people could use certain materia, but it instead removed any value put to the characters other than limit breaks, which became obsolete once you got KOTR. As for the limit system, I don’t really have much of a problem with it, so you can argue with the others about that. Anyway, my point was that I used to think FFVII was an incredibly good game; now I just think it was a pretty good game. I saw that their arguments were sound, so my opinion is different.
BTW clanotheduck, you’ve stopped accusing people of refusing to accept that people like the game and started arguing your point properly. Keep it up!
well, i’ve already said that the materia system is a different style that is just as challenging as the character selection. but…i see a problem in your mention of the elevator battle. one of the "flaws" with the limit system was that it would make your skip characters…and if FFVII used character selection, then you would have to keep skiping up the characters to get to the one with lightning.
…yeah. just proving a point that character selection might also be "flawed" aswell.
Most of what I said, I said in passing, because your idea of a debate is rather silly and I wanted to explain why. Either that, or you felt like arguing over something trivial just to argue over it (when it has not real baring on whether FFVII is a good game or not).
Let me explain what my point was, as you obviously missed it. Debates need both opinion and fact. You cannot have a debate without two opposing opinions. In this case the two opinions are "FFVII is a bad game" and "FFVII is a good game". Once the opposing views have been established, it is then up to both sides to back up their opinions with facts.
What you said, is that you start with facts, then form an opinion, then debate. My point was, it doesn’t matter where you start. If you have an opinion about something, and facts to back up your opinion, it doesn’t matter if you looked at the facts first and then formed your opinion. As long as both are present you still have the debate (which was the chicken and the egg comment at the end).
Trying to discount the entire discussion merely because you see the facts presented as opinion is taking the easy way out, really. Take the materia system for example. It is my opinion (and others) that it is a poor system. The reasons I think it is a poor system were stated. One of the major reasons is because it makes it so only three characters are needed to play the entire game, making the other characters worthless. If the only response you can offer is "that is your opinion", without showing why it is just an opinion, then you’re just trying to write off what is said. You need to either try to give a reason why you need more than three characters or concede the point. It is not an opinion because it can be proven either way. If you cannot prove that you need more than three characters (baring areas where the party has to split into two separate parties, because they were programmed in to force you to use multiple characters–not because you needed them) then the fact remains in tact, and remains as proof that the materia system has flaws.
No matter how you cut it, there is still a debate. By arguing if something is an opinion or not all you’re doing is dancing around the real issue. In other words, come up with proof that what we???ve said pertaining to the game is incorrect (rather than arguing if it is an opinion or not), or stop wasting everyone???s time, including your own.
Let me explain what my point was, as you obviously missed it. Debates need both opinion and fact. You cannot have a debate without two opposing opinions. In this case the two opinions are "FFVII is a bad game" and "FFVII is a good game". Once the opposing views have been established, it is then up to both sides to back up their opinions with facts.
What you said, is that you start with facts, then form an opinion, then debate. My point was, it doesn’t matter where you start. If you have an opinion about something, and facts to back up your opinion, it doesn’t matter if you looked at the facts first and then formed your opinion. As long as both are present you still have the debate (which was the chicken and the egg comment at the end).
Trying to discount the entire discussion merely because you see the facts presented as opinion is taking the easy way out, really. Take the materia system for example. It is my opinion (and others) that it is a poor system. The reasons I think it is a poor system were stated. One of the major reasons is because it makes it so only three characters are needed to play the entire game, making the other characters worthless. If the only response you can offer is "that is your opinion", without showing why it is just an opinion, then you’re just trying to write off what is said. You need to either try to give a reason why you need more than three characters or concede the point. It is not an opinion because it can be proven either way. If you cannot prove that you need more than three characters (baring areas where the party has to split into two separate parties, because they were programmed in to force you to use multiple characters–not because you needed them) then the fact remains in tact, and remains as proof that the materia system has flaws.
No matter how you cut it, there is still a debate. By arguing if something is an opinion or not all you’re doing is dancing around the real issue. In other words, come up with proof that what we???ve said pertaining to the game is incorrect (rather than arguing if it is an opinion or not), or stop wasting everyone???s time, including your own.
i agree we should stop aurguing about what makes a debate, but your comments about the materia system are all wrong.
you see. i have provided evidence that the materia system was not flawed, but a different style. who decided that having to use more then 3 characters is the way its supoused to be? this wont make it any harder or any easier.
now you will say "But the other characters are just useless now!", yes, but it does give you varriety in picking your characters, to have so many. also having more than 3 characters adds depth to the story, like Jagged said.
it seems to me that you guys are just making wild claims that RPGs are "supoused" to be this, and are "supoused" to be that. but its just a different style then the old ones.
The argument isn’t even about being able to use any three characters. The argument is every character being able to play any role you need him or her to play makes the game easier. There is no possible way you can argue that it doesn’t. You could argue the degree at which it is made easier, but I would suggest playing games where characters have to have defined roles. You’ll see instantly that there is a much greater challenge in games that do not have anything like the materia system.
now you will say "But the other characters are just useless now!", yes, but it does give you varriety in picking your characters, to have so many. also having more than 3 characters adds depth to the story, like Jagged said.
You’re not really picking between anything, though. You’re just selecting three at random and making them be whatever you want. Also, FFV only had four playable characters. The reason is because it used the job system, so you could make any character what you wanted him or her to be (like FFVII). Personally, I don’t think the story lost any depths to it. You could just as easily have every single character in FFVII while only having a three-person party at all times. In fact, as I said before, I think it could have been a better story had that been the case.
it seems to me that you guys are just making wild claims that RPGs are "supoused" to be this, and are "supoused" to be that. but its just a different style then the old ones.
It is a different style, yes, a horribly flawed style. Show me proof that Square intended you to only have to use three characters through the whole game, and that they meant to devalue the other six playable characters they added into the game. Personally, I think you’re the one making the wild claims, seemingly saying you know exactly what Square intended without offering any proof. Also, before you say it, the reason I can assume Square meant you to use every character is because they included all of them. In every other Final Fantasy (bar FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX???though you can include them if you really wish to, as they just added to the downward spiral that is the post SNES Final Fantasies) you never have more characters than you are expected to use. FFVI is the only other Final Fantasy where you have an overabundance of characters. However, in FFVI, you constantly have to utilize the large party by splitting apart. In FFVII you only split apart once, at the very end of the game, and you still don???t even need to use three characters. Even if I considered this one occasion to be reason enough to have more than three characters (which I don???t), the fact still remains that at least one of your characters is useless, with up to three being useless if you bothered to get the two secret characters.
Ugh…there is a way i can argue it isn’t easier.
Ok…rather than having each character have their own special powers. you can just choose who will get what special powers…allowing you to pick favorites…but this will NOT make it any easier or any harder…it just allows you to choose which character gets what, like the Job system, but it allows for more customization. Like letting you pick exactly what power you want each character to have. This is good, because rather than having that power that you never use, you can replace it with a different power. I always thought that it was ANNOYING that you got those useless powers such as "Cheer" or "Provoke" (at least I never used them) when you wanted something more useful.
You see… you people can argue that annoying things are NOT challenges, so I guess I can too. @_@
You’re not really picking between anything, though. You’re just selecting three at random and making them be whatever you want. Also, FFV only had four playable characters. The reason is because it used the job system, so you could make any character what you wanted him or her to be (like FFVII). Personally, I don’t think the story lost any depths to it. You could just as easily have every single character in FFVII while only having a three-person party at all times. In fact, as I said before, I think it could have been a better story had that been the case.
…@[email protected] could pick at random…but it???s much funnier to pick favorites and use them…that???s all my point is. It allows you to use who ever the hell you want! That will NOT make it any harder or easier.
Wow…how would it of made a better story? Characters you can battle with don???t affect the quality of the script. you said that they might as well of made the other characters not playable, yes…this would not effect the story, but once more, it wouldn’t make it so you have a large group of people to choose from, making it so you can pick favorites and have a hay day with he characters you like!
You see, in FFV, wouldn’t of been cool to play with that other guy that was in the story?…yeah…I didn’t get to that game yet (just started to play 4) so I???m just going to say "that guy"…all my point is, is that it gives variety to pick from so many characters.
It is a different style, yes, a horribly flawed style. Show me proof that Square intended you to only have to use three characters through the whole game, and that they meant to devalue the other six playable characters they added into the game. Personally, I think you’re the one making the wild claims, seemingly saying you know exactly what Square intended without offering any proof. Also, before you say it, the reason I can assume Square meant you to use every character is because they included all of them. In every other Final Fantasy (bar FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX???though you can include them if you really wish to, as they just added to the downward spiral that is the post SNES Final Fantasies) you never have more characters than you are expected to use. FFVI is the only other Final Fantasy where you have an overabundance of characters. However, in FFVI, you constantly have to utilize the large party by splitting apart. In FFVII you only split apart once, at the very end of the game, and you still don???t even need to use three characters. Even if I considered this one occasion to be reason enough to have more than three characters (which I don???t), the fact still remains that at least one of your characters is useless, with up to three being useless if you bothered to get the two secret characters.
@[email protected] here is proof that they didn’t design it to use all of the characters.
(I haven’t tried this)
People say that if you only use the guys through out the game until Cloud and Aries’s date scene, you can go on a date with Barret (instead of Aries)…now if the game wasn’t designed for you to pick favorites, then why would they make an event only possible if you used a select few characters?
Also if the game was not designed for you to pick favorites…why the heck would they give you the ability to choose???
Now you shall say "FFVI let you choose" (I think that???s what you meant by "Splitting up"), and now I shall say that final fantasy VI did not use a job system, or anything like the materia system.
I guess I have been making all of the points you have already made. Character selection doesn’t mean crap in the game! Meaning, you do not have to use all of your characters. If the game was designed for you to use all of your characters, they would give them individual value.
So you sort of said the opposite of yourself. You said that character selection was worthless, now you???re saying that the game was designed for you use all of your characters, meaning that they all had a use…and you have already said that the characters don’t have an individual use.
The materia system was flawed in that it removed the concentrated roles of the different characters; not because it sucked. It was in fact very interesting but there was no consistency with the characters because of the system. That is why the materia system was not the correct one to use for a ROLE playing game.
So are you making the radical claim the Final Fantasy VII is not a role playing game??? If its still a role playing game.. then its working system.
You could say the exact same thing about the job system…it removes their personal qualities in battle…and gives them new ones…It doesn’t make it so no one has a role to play. It just switches the roles around.
Ok…rather than having each character have their own special powers. you can just choose who will get what special powers…allowing you to pick favorites…but this will NOT make it any easier or any harder…it just allows you to choose which character gets what, like the Job system, but it allows for more customization. Like letting you pick exactly what power you want each character to have. This is good, because rather than having that power that you never use, you can replace it with a different power. I always thought that it was ANNOYING that you got those useless powers such as "Cheer" or "Provoke" (at least I never used them) when you wanted something more useful.
You see… you people can argue that annoying things are NOT challenges, so I guess I can too. @_@
The Job System is different because you are very limited in the abilities each character gains when they select a job. With the Materia System you’re able to mix and match ANY skill you want. You pretty much just added to the argument that the Matiera System is far too easy. However, because you admitted later in your post you’ve never played FFV, your opinion on this loses ALL credibility, because everything you’re saying is basically coming without a full understanding of what I was saying.
…@[email protected] could pick at random…but it???s much funnier to pick favorites and use them…that???s all my point is. It allows you to use who ever the hell you want! That will NOT make it any harder or easier.
The point is that it devalues characters. There’s no point in having nine characters if you only need three.
Wow…how would it of made a better story? Characters you can battle with don???t affect the quality of the script. you said that they might as well of made the other characters not playable, yes…this would not effect the story, but once more, it wouldn’t make it so you have a large group of people to choose from, making it so you can pick favorites and have a hay day with he characters you like!
Play FFIV, then tell me having characters come and go doesn’t add to the story.
You see, in FFV, wouldn’t of been cool to play with that other guy that was in the story?…yeah…I didn’t get to that game yet (just started to play 4) so I???m just going to say "that guy"…all my point is, is that it gives variety to pick from so many characters.
No, it wouldn’t have been better. Play it before you try to comment on it.
People say that if you only use the guys through out the game until Cloud and Aries’s date scene, you can go on a date with Barret (instead of Aries)…now if the game wasn’t designed for you to pick favorites, then why would they make an event only possible if you used a select few characters?
First, I’ll confirm that, yes, you can go on a date with Barret. However, the requirement is to act like a jerk to all of the females, not to never use them. You should actually play games before you use them for reference and try out aspects of FFVII you haven’t attempted before you mention them.
Also if the game was not designed for you to pick favorites…why the heck would they give you the ability to choose???
That’s not the point. In FFVI you have to "play favorites" several times, as well. However, if you always use the same characters in FFVI then you will have four core characters that are insanely powerful, while the rest of your characters are very, very weak. This screws you over because the party splits constantly, making it impossible for you to complete some areas of the game unless you try to balance your usage of characters.
Now you shall say "FFVI let you choose" (I think that???s what you meant by "Splitting up"), and now I shall say that final fantasy VI did not use a job system, or anything like the materia system.
FFVI did have something similar to the Materia System, actually. The Esper/Relic system was basically the equivalent to the Materia System. The difference is that just giving a character a powerful Esper or powerful relics didn’t allow them to take on whatever role you wanted. Each character still had distinct abilities. The distinct abilities made FFVI a challenge when your party split because you had to try and mix and match your party. In FFVII you had to mix and match your materia, which is insanely simple. Again, it just solidifies the point that FFVII has no difficulty to it at all.
As for the meaning of splitting, your main party has to separate into several smaller parties many times in FFVI. Let me guess, you’ve only played the Playstation Final Fantasies?
I guess I have been making all of the points you have already made. Character selection doesn’t mean crap in the game! Meaning, you do not have to use all of your characters. If the game was designed for you to use all of your characters, they would give them individual value.
My point was that they have needless characters. If the characters don’t serve a purpose then they shouldn’t be there. If you never had more than three people in your party in FFVII you wouldn’t even know the difference. If they are there they should have some sort of purpose or value, the characters in FFVII do not. That is the point.
So you sort of said the opposite of yourself. You said that character selection was worthless, now you???re saying that the game was designed for you use all of your characters, meaning that they all had a use…and you have already said that the characters don’t have an individual use.
No, either you’ve misunderstood me or you’re trying to take what I’ve said out of context. There is no contradiction in what I’ve said. I have said the characters should have individual value to the party, and I have said that they do not. You’re putting words in my mouth, and I’d thank you to knock it off because you’re getting as bad as Tekkie.
ffvii is a good game. come on! it sold MILLIONS!! it’s obvious!!
so what if you dont like it? everybody else DOES, and there’s NOTHING YOU CAN DO to change people’s minds. not one person is gonna wake up and say "wow. after reading this immensly long thread, i realize that final fantasy vii is NOT a good game. im gonna go throw it away now."
that scenario that i have stated above is never gonna happen. so anybody who wastes their time trying to dis FFVII is just wasing their lives with absurdly long posts that dont mean a THING because you are NOT changing anybody’s mind.
this thread should have been dead and gone long, long ago.
That has already been discussed. You’re not adding anything new.
so what if you dont like it?
We’re allowed to express our opinions?
everybody else DOES, and there’s NOTHING YOU CAN DO to change people’s minds.
Obviously that isn’t true, otherwise there wouldn’t be people that agree with me. Also: That has already been discussed. You’re not adding anything new.
not one person is gonna wake up and say "wow. after reading this immensly long thread, i realize that final fantasy vii is NOT a good game. im gonna go throw it away now."
People have changed their opinions. Also: That has already been discussed. You’re not adding anything new.
that scenario that i have stated above is never gonna happen. so anybody who wastes their time trying to dis FFVII is just wasing their lives with absurdly long posts that dont mean a THING because you are NOT changing anybody’s mind.
If you had taken the time to read the thread, you would realize you’re wrong. Also: That has already been discussed. You’re not adding anything new.
this thread should have been dead and gone long, long ago.
That has already been discussed. You’re not adding anything new.
You could say the exact same thing about the job system…it removes their personal qualities in battle…and gives them new ones…It doesn’t make it so no one has a role to play. It just switches the roles around.
And so are you assuming that I made the radical claim that FF7 was not a role playing game?
And I don’t know what the hell you are talking about when you said that the Job system removes their personal qualities and gives them new ones. What the HELL are you talking about? In FF4, Kain was a Dragon Knight. Hence he got the Jump ablity. No one else did. How did that give them a new personality in BATTLE?! Rosa was trained as a white mage and guess what…SHE HAD healing abilities in battle. Cecil was a kngiht so he NEVER GOT TO USE SUMMONS. So in FF7, although Cloud is a mercenary warrior, I could make him into a healer. Therefore removing the point of a ROLE in the game because wow you fit ALL the roles. That was my point. The materia system was not the right system for a role playing game.
ffvii is a good game. come on! it sold MILLIONS!! it’s obvious!!
so what if you dont like it? everybody else DOES, and there’s NOTHING YOU CAN DO to change people’s minds. not one person is gonna wake up and say "wow. after reading this immensly long thread, i realize that final fantasy vii is NOT a good game. im gonna go throw it away now."
that scenario that i have stated above is never gonna happen. so anybody who wastes their time trying to dis FFVII is just wasing their lives with absurdly long posts that dont mean a THING because you are NOT changing anybody’s mind.
this thread should have been dead and gone long, long ago.
The ironic thing about this post is that it is the proof that this thread should be kept alive. Come on, who doesn’t find this entertaining?
That post doesn???t count, actually. =/
I had an admin run an IP check, turns out it was someone that had been already banned. He joins every now and then just to be an ass.
if anyone else wants to argue with these ignorant fellows, then be my guest…i’ve got better things to do than argue over such a trivial topic.
if anyone else wants to argue with these ignorant fellows, then be my guest…i’ve got better things to do than argue over such a trivial topic.
Bye bye. We’ll miss you!
Just for the record, what makes me ignorant? It seems to me you???re calling me ignorant just because I don???t agree with you, which is pretty childish.
i’m saying your ignorant, because over and over you guys fail to see my point, and maybe i’m failing to see your point aswell.
this deabte really just consists of people repeating themselves on both sides…which tends to get boring after a while, i’m not sure why you people are still here either…@_@
this deabte really just consists of people repeating themselves on both sides…which tends to get boring after a while, i’m not sure why you people are still here either…@_@
I saw your point, but it was wrong. I stated why it is wrong. That doesn’t make any one ignorant, and I would hope that you don???t go around calling everyone that disagrees with you ignorant. And you’re right; people are repeating what has been said a lot. However, the reason isn’t because we don’t have anything else to say on the topic, it’s because people that try to defend FFVII don’t bother to read through both of the threads to see what has and has not been discussed already. You’re basically telling us to back down merely because someone doesn’t bother to read the threads, and that is silly.
"Final Fantasy VII
PLAYSTATION
The plot thickens: Experience a deep and engaging storyline with several unexpected twists and turns."
at least a worker at gamestop agrees with me.
Though, RM, I agree with you on a lot of things. You put up a good argument.
But FFVII’s still the best game. =D I’m done.
P.S.: FF 1-6 owned.
I guess there’s no point in arguing with him. After all, he IS done. And if he’s done, that means he’ll never post in here again.
Says you.
Of course. It’s in the FFVII forum, isn’t it?
AHA! So you’re NOT done! *wins*
I see your reasoning.
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