What the hell man? WHAT THE FUCKING HELL!

Lightning and team were supposed to save cocoon,and fang becomes ragnarok.
GODDAMIT!! THis is incredibly stupid.They defeat orphan,and it doesn't fucking die.

I was hoping for an epic ending,but goddamit,this is pissing me off.
God she was easy to convince into becoming ragnarok.

Oh yeah:Orphans music was pretty damm good boss theme,although:I don't understand how people can claim it to be that difficult.
Maybe i was over prepared,or maybe not,but he was pretty easy.He was just cheap.His attack that brings you near death,is easily comparable to kefka's ability to lower all your character's hp to 1,or stockbreak ability which is learned by steiner and beatrix in ff9.

If you debuff him and buff yourself,you can lower his hp to half in next to no time at all.
The true final boss wasn't even hard at all.I got 0 stars on it,but i kicked her ass.

I didn't even debuff her,i just casted some buffs on myself and used ravager and beat her up with magic.
I think actually:FFXIII was definitely a lot easier than zeromus.

Well, you're not wrong, but I did warn you that people vastly overestimate Orphan's difficulty. And (adopts a lecuring posture, complete with wagging finger) I did tell you over and over again that you didn't need to be as hard as you were making yourself in order to finish the game. So you were given fair warning! But yeah, people only find him hard because of his death spell. If he feels like it, he can (but obviously didn't against you) cast it over and over and over again as his only move until he eventually gets your leader.

When he does that, there is very little you can do to stop him. There is always a chance it will work, no matter how much death protection you have on. For instance, I killed him first time and thought he was easy. But then when I tried him again when a friend was round to show them the end sequence, I kept dying. He got me like 4-5 times before I killed him - simply because he kept casting his death spell on Lightning, and I was unlucky enough that it cut through her Seraph's Crown and killed her.

And the ending... Leona Lewis... epic fail.

I didn't like the george lucas ending,i found it kinda cheesy.
Orphan was kinda cool looking,but it looked like it was caressing itself.
Also:Did anyone think that barthandalus looked exactly like smithy from smrpg in his second form?
Basically,He was one giant sword.

Orphan kind of looked like a big harp. I think its supposed to look like the dude on the left is 'playing' the harp, but I think its also supposed to look like its caressing it too. It looks creepy anyway, which I guess is what they wanted. I really like Orphan/Barthandelus actually - I think it makes an appropriately dastardly enemy in the final sequences.

I didn't have a problem with the ending really. The only thing I found a bit odd is how Fang and Vanille suddenly knew exactly what to do, in order in to kill Orphan, save everybody etc. Maybe they found the user manual for Ragnarok lying around somewhere? Oh yeah, and the whole 'Everyone strikes a cheesy heroic pose as they deliver a cheesy heroic speech' thing before they tackle Orphan, was just as lame as it always.

The final incarnation was a gimme boss, but that's nothing new. Plenty of RPGs have final bosses with a final version that is only one step removed from being an auto-win cutscene boss (Final Fantasy 10 has one for example, as do games like Lost Odyssesy, Eternal Sonata etc etc).

Anyway, well done you. Now go and play a real man's game like Demon's Souls :D

The final incarnation was a gimme boss, but that's nothing new. Plenty of RPGs have final bosses with a final version that is only one step removed from being an auto-win cutscene boss (Final Fantasy 10 has one for example, as do games like Lost Odyssesy, Eternal Sonata etc etc).

Anyway, well done you. Now go and play a real man's game like Demon's Souls :D[/QUOTE]

I found the ending lame.It was a happy ever after.Only person who didn't get what they want,was hope,because his mother was dead.I also found it profoundly stupid that fang gave in and became ragnarok.

And as for demon souls:I don't own it.I still have to finish ff tactics,so that is going to be my next game.
I might also try to play ff8 again,since i really need to finish that game some day.

Hmm, happily ever after endings... well, I think you have to take into account that people want some kind of reward for a long hard slog through a video game. Downer endings tend to be very badly received, as most gamers see it as a poor return for helping their characters to reach that point. If they're going to die anyway, then what was the point of doing any of the game?

The thing is, I don't really agree that its that happy an ending though (and that seems to have been the reaction of the Jap fans, that they thought it was too much of a downer ending). Snow and Sazh might be happy, but Fang and Vanille basically had to sacrifice themselves, and neither Lightning nor Hope are too chuffed about that. But then, I think they let Lightning's character slide out of importance in the second half of the game, and for me, I just felt like she had nothing solid to be involved with, because they'd let her story peter out completely.

I mean she's happy that Serah is safe, but she can't take the lead on welcoming her back, considering that her safe return has been all Snow has been talking about during the whole game, near enough! That leaves her on the outside, with no other strong story to fall back on (okay, she's with Hope in her established motherly sort of role, but that too had basically evaporated by that point).

The developers seem only to have realised this afterwards, when they thought 'Hang on, Lightning's not got much going for her in this ending, has she?' So I could understand why they wanted to do a sequel to correct that, but then I find out that Lightning is not the main character in said sequel - its Serah instead?! And apparently, Lightning is going to fall into some kind of time rift in that very end sequence, just like that...

To quote Revan, 'Oh dear, oh dear Square... what have you done now...?'

Well:Lightning is certainly very happy,because serah is ok,and she is serah's sister.
Fang is happy,because the fight is finally over,and there will be no more l'cie jobs.She can live her own life.
Vanille is happy for the same reason:No more barthandalus/orphan.No more burden of being a l'cie.
Hope is sort of happy because its over,but his mother is still dead and will remain dead,so he got the bad end of a stick.
Snow is very happy,because he can apologize to serah(his fianc�) and marry her,which also keeps the promise he had with lightning,and makes her happy in turn because he kept his promise.

But Lightning didn't look happy at all, did she? She was momentarily relieved when she saw Serah was okay (but as I say, this is quite muted, as they save most of that for Snow and Serah). Then she was a bit downcast with Hope, because Fang and Vanille were gone. And that was it - she certainly wasn't jumping up and clicking her heels together like Snow and Sazh were. She and Hope felt like the outsiders, the people watching others enjoying themselves, whilst they were counting the cost.

And can you really call it a good ending for Fang and Vanille, when they had to sacrifice themselves? The Fal'Cie were the ones who woke people from crystal stasis to perfrom tasks for them. With the Fal'Cie gone, they are presumably stuck that way. They may have been okay with it, but its not like they (and the others) haven't lost anything to achieve this, and the reaction of Hope and Lightning to this shows that its bittersweet at best.

Anyway, happy or not, the game is over (for now). Won't know any more until the sequel comes out. Maybe things will be cleared up, but I'm not holding my breath on that one!

For me, FFXIII had a neutral ending. Some amazing things happened during their adventures but there were severe repercussions. That's why I think it's a neutral ending.

As far as 13-2, the game has its work cut out for them. Right now I think that the trailers that show Caius (and his friend?) is a bit cheesey but I could be wrong; for all I know he could be as deep as Sephiroth. I'm also not liking some of the music scores.... Some of it sounds a little too X-2 for me and I HATE Snow's new look and I don't think that his personality changed so I know that I'm going to hate on him during the entire game AGAIN. With that aside, if 13-2 can answer XIII's current plot questions it will no doubtedly be great. And if 13-2 is great then that makes FFXIII the perfect prequel story to the main story (being 13-2's main story). It will also make Lightning more of a protagonist if 13-2 turns out well.

I'm concerned that they are making time travel a thing in this game. Is drawing comparisons with Chrono Trigger really going to help matters? Everyone loves that game, and people always feel the need to defend their favourite games as being better. Surely this risks having legions of CT fans sneering down their noses?

Even worse if FF13-2 manages to do it better, because then they'll really turn nasty!

I'm concerned that they are making time travel a thing in this game. Is drawing comparisons with Chrono Trigger really going to help matters? Everyone loves that game, and people always feel the need to defend their favourite games as being better. Surely this risks having legions of CT fans sneering down their noses?

Even worse if FF13-2 manages to do it better, because then they'll really turn nasty!

I don't know if there will be a time travelling theme.

I did see a trailer for FFXIII-2.It starts out with a guy in a car,driving in a very modern city that passes one of those toll booths.
Then i see the whole scene move into a building and there is talking done there,and some sort of dramatic scene.

Frankly:I have little faith in final fantasy series.

I was very disappointed with the ending in FFXIII,and thought it could have been cooler.

How would you have liked to see it end then?

How would you have liked to see it end then?

It would have been a little better,if fang turns into ragnarok,and you get an epic fight on screen as ragnarok kicking his ass in uber style.Afterwards:Him regretting on the decision of making her into ragnarok,because he got his ass kicked royally.Afterwards:They find out that their focus was to kill bart,and they are released from their focus forever and we get to see a big wedding with cake for snow and serah.

that toll booth and car wasnt XIII-2. It was Agito.

But he *wanted* Fang to kill him, so he wouldn't have regretted it, would he? The team only find out at the end that Orphan actually wanted to die all along. They couldn't kill themselves, so they needed the L'Cie to do it for them. But one person alone wasn't enough to make Ragnarok, and even then not with just destruction in mind. It took Fang and Vanille, with a plan to save Coccoon in the aftermath, for it to work.

The whole game emphasises the point of a team being stronger than any one person, no matter how mighty they are. Its the whole point of Lightning's story, as she realises she can't save Serah alone. So needing both Fang and Vanille to make Ragnaroak makes sense - especially when you consider that in the past, Fang had no problem with becoming Ragnarok and trying to destroy Coccoon, but she failed, because again, one powerful person isn't as strong as 2 or more working together.

If you don't like the idea of Teamwork vs Single Incredibly Hard Person, then you're out of luck with Final Fantasy or any JRPG really. That's probably the biggest single difference in the way the Japs and us in the west approach things. They emphasis the team, we emphasis games where a single warrior with a sword,gun etc kills everyone in the enemy army by himself.

And apparently, FF13-2 is all about time travel. Some of the enemies are actually from the future.

It would have been a little better,if fang turns into ragnarok,and you get an epic fight on screen as ragnarok kicking his ass in uber style.Afterwards:Him regretting on the decision of making her into ragnarok,because he got his ass kicked royally.Afterwards:They find out that their focus was to kill bart,and they are released from their focus forever and we get to see a big wedding with cake for snow and serah.

I'm not trying to be an ass but that sounds very Hollywood..

The whole game emphasises the point of a team being stronger than any one person, no matter how mighty they are. Its the whole point of Lightning's story, as she realises she can't save Serah alone. So needing both Fang and Vanille to make Ragnaroak makes sense - especially when you consider that in the past, Fang had no problem with becoming Ragnarok and trying to destroy Coccoon, but she failed, because again, one powerful person isn't as strong as 2 or more working together.

If you don't like the idea of Teamwork vs Single Incredibly Hard Person, then you're out of luck with Final Fantasy or any JRPG really. That's probably the biggest single difference in the way the Japs and us in the west approach things. They emphasis the team, we emphasis games where a single warrior with a sword,gun etc kills everyone in the enemy army by himself.

And apparently, FF13-2 is all about time travel. Some of the enemies are actually from the future.[/QUOTE]

But:In order to bring back the creator,they had to destroy cocoon supposedly,and then in the end:Orphan wanted to die for some reason.Its not the idea of teamwork,its just that i don't particularly care about the story or characters enough.I wish the characters would have had more impact,because i forgot the story as soon as the game ended.The reason:I simply didn't care about the characters or story enough.

That whole FFXIII-2 time travel shit,sounds clich� as hell.I don't know for sure how it will turn out,but i have a bad feeling.

Oh yeah:I saw a lets play of a game called the lost odyssey or something like that.It was by mistwalker.It looked like a really good game,much much better than FFXIII.I was interested in the ackward situation for the main character,who has amnesia and slowly recovers his memories.Some of the shit he goes through,is just plain weird.Imagine meeting your sister 90 years later,and you still look like you are 20 years old.

The following examples are heavily simplified, but broadly reflect what happens in the games:

FF7 - Sephiroth wants to destroy all life on the planet, absorb all the energy from everyone dying and Meteor landing, and be the new 'God'.
FF8 - Ultimecia wants to crush all time together so everyone dies and only she is left.
FF9 - Necron wants to everything, everywhere, ever, because all life is pointless.
FF10 - Sin comes along every now and then, flattens everything, kills nearly everyone, makes them start again and then kills them again and again and again.
Star Ocean: Til the End of Time - Creator of Universe belives it is too corrupted to be allowed to survive, tries to wipe it all out and start again.
Persona 3 - Ancient entity intends to eradicate all life and start again.
Dark Souls - Denizens of the darkness want fire of life to go out, smothering all life and ushering in new age of darkness.
Mass Effect - Reapers come along and destroy all life in galaxy, let life form again and people build up again, then do it again and again and again.
Tales of Vesperia - Person grows tired of Mankind's barbarity and seeks to kill everything, because we don't deserve to exist.
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne: Person calls forth the Apocalypse, killing everyone, so he can start again and build a new world.
Elder Scrolls 4, Oblivion: Cult decides that mortal beings are corrupt and feeble, plan to let Daedra loose on world to kill everyone and start a new existence.

FF13 - Agents of the Creator grow tired of Man's barbarity and the pointlessness of existence, and want to kill everyone, so the Creator can try again.

So like I said, if you don't like the story of FF13, you may as well give up on RPGs altogether. Because they all have more or less the same story. Sometimes, the villain will only want to conquer the world, not destory it entirely (they usually start off wanting the former, get thwarted and then decide to do the latter).

Oh, and Lost Odyssesy isn't that great at all (but its not bad, and it is one of the better JRPGs of this gen). The main character says about 10 lines of dialogue in the whole thing, there are 2 extremely annoying kids in the party, and the whole thing is just so... alright. It picks up from the 3rd disc onwards - its one of the rare RPGs that actually has a better second half than first half. Its worth a look, but don't get your hopes up too high.

Its very old school in terms of gameplay (Random battles and all that antiquated jazz). Its also completely broken in that you have 2 distinct tiers of power in the party. You have the Immortals who are awesome, and the regular folks who aren't. Guess who you use all the time, given the chance...

I still don't care.

I found the main villain in FFXIII laughable.He was pretty much an excuse to have a villain.
After the first appearance,it just got damm repetitive,and he didn't seem that deep either.

But what do you consider to actually have good story then? You've trashed 8 and 13, shrugged at 7 saying its okay, and there's little reason to suspect you're going to like any other RPG story any more than this, seeing as how you've dimissed the one and only overarching story that all RPGs have in common.

Are there any RPGs that you actually did think had a good story?

But what do you consider to actually have good story then? You've trashed 8 and 13, shrugged at 7 saying its okay, and there's little reason to suspect you're going to like any other RPG story any more than this, seeing as how you've dimissed the one and only overarching story that all RPGs have in common.

Are there any RPGs that you actually did think had a good story?

Sure there are:

FF6 FF9 FF tactics,parasite eve 1 and 2.Dragon age origins,bioshock.FFX story seems pretty good too.
Dragon age origins has really good characters,and the story is pretty damm good too.Even the story for fallout is good.Bioshock is pretty amazing as well as the ultima series for the quest for virtues.It started out that you were just killing off the bad guy,but later on turned to a quest for virtues,and what are virtues and how they can be corrupted.

I think that dragon age has done to characters what final fantasy has lost.There haven't been that many surprises for me in the final fantasy series as of late.Example:I wasn't surprised that i would fight barthandalus in FFXIII,or that hope would eventually become hopeful again.The characters just feel rather 2 dimensional in FFXIII.I mean:Some parts are not bad,but not on level with the surprise from characters from some series.I thought that dragon age origins did a better with characters than final fantasy,because of just how entertaining it was to watch them argue and fight.Each personality captured my interest.Even FF tactics captured my interest with its political intrigue and very interesting political character,and this predates suikoden 2,so that means that suikoden 2 has similarities.Suikoden 2 is another good example of well done jrpg characters.Sure,there are a lot of characters that are blank,but there are a handfull that are really really good,just like in ff tactics.

Example:I would place jowy next to delita,because it just seems like a similarity in character,except that jowy doesn't hate or distrust ryu.

And ramza finds out that he is being used as a political tool to increase the power of dycedarg.What ever happened to things like:Betrayal honor and such? when did characters start to whine about their life?

My ff8 problem with the story,is ultimecia,who possesses edea.Her dialogue is very predictable.I don't find zell to be deep,nor irvine or selphie.Rinoa seems better,and squall is definitely the best character in the game,along with possibly quistis.

Seifer is not a bad antagonist.

Ultimecia suffers from what most final bad guys do - she simply isn't on screen enough, and her 'I will destroy the entire world' stuff is so over the top that you just can't take it seriously.

But when you say FF10... I mean you criticise FF13 for not having villains, and then praise this game?! And as much as I love Dragon Age: Origins, the main story is just an 'Ancient Evil Returns' yet again. The stuff with Loghain is more interesting, but that fades out of the game almost completely after the excellent opening sequences at Ostagar.

You haven't mentioned FF12 in all this - if you haven't played it, then I urge you to do so. Its the best Final Fantasy for well over a decade now.

You haven't mentioned FF12 in all this - if you haven't played it, then I urge you to do so. Its the best Final Fantasy for well over a decade now.

That's all a matter of opinion though. Personally I feel that FF12's story never came close to reaching its full potential. On the flip-side it has the best battle system of the series, no doubt.

Well, I'm on record as having that very opinion on both matters, but I still feel that FF12 is the best since FF8. And the fact it doesn't reach its full potential is not through any fault of the game itself or anyone at Square - because there's no way they could have predicted what would happen. The guy got sick and had to quit - it happens.

Well, I'm on record as having that very opinion on both matters, but I still feel that FF12 is the best since FF8. And the fact it doesn't reach its full potential is not through any fault of the game itself or anyone at Square - because there's no way they could have predicted what would happen. The guy got sick and had to quit - it happens.

But it takes good characters to carry the story.
If you don't like the characters,then you won't care about the story or what happens to those characters.I was sort of interested in how wakka felt like a bit of a prejudistic asshole towards rikku.I didn't like kimahri though.

I somehow remember the story of FFX:Yunalesca jecht and possibly some other guy,went on a pilgrimage,and jecht became sin instead of dying,and got rid of whoever was sin before.
In the end,he wasn't really bad,just some creature that lives in instincts.You also see sin more often than characters like:Sephiroth or:zeromus.Also:You get a bit of an explanation about what sin is.

I felt that somehow,that story about prejudice and religious ignorance somehow captured my interest more than FFXIII.
FFXIII had some moments where i was interested in the story,but it soon evaporated as i got bored.

Also:Dragon age oirigns strongpoint,is the characters.
The bad guy may be some evil force,but the game concentrates on character most of the time,and we get a real sense of what the characters are like.For an example:Loghain is a real asshole,and if you recruit him,alistair will not only leave you,but also attack you.

You get a real sense of hatred of one character towards the other.

This must be some kind of dream - Sin is a better enemy than Sephiroth?! Sin, the big whale with no personaility at all that comes along and kills the happy, water polo loving island folk who are too dim to realise that if you don't want to be killed by a whale, don't live by the fricking ocean?! I can't believe what I'm hearing, but if that's what floats your boat, then fair enough. Myself, I thought the villains were an utter joke - Jecht must be the feeblest last boss of any FF game, and as for Seymour (howls with laughter).

The cast of FF10 was just awful. What was the point of characters like Lulu, Kimarhi etc. Auron is a great character, but Tidus is the absolute worst RPG protagonist ever - ever I say! For him alone, every copy of this game should be burned.

I also don't agree about DA:O. Again, I love that game, and Loghain is potentially interesting, and indeed is interesting during the opening. But after that, you barely see him, as you spend umpteen hours on recruitment quests. The game's main story would have profited greatly by focusing more on the story of Loghain and the civil wars between the Banns. As it is, that angle is almost completely swept under the carpet, ignored right until the end, and then quickly resolved because they still have the Archdemon to sort out (which is also defeated very easily and almost as soon as it arrives).

And that's the end of that. My 'Final Fantasy 10' tolerance meter is full, and its fatal to exceed that limit.

The cast of FF10 was just awful. What was the point of characters like Lulu, Kimarhi etc. Auron is a great character, but Tidus is the absolute worst RPG protagonist ever - ever I say! For him alone, every copy of this game should be burned.


Stop right there. Let's be realistic here; Vaan from XII is, without a doubt, the worst protagonist this series has seen period. As soon as you have Basch join your party, Vaan becomes obsolete. He no longer functions as a proper protagonist should. At the end of X, it is still clear that the intended protagonist(s) (some would argue that Yuna is the true protagonist) remained consistent. FFXII loses sight of its protagonist and at the end of that game, it is unclear who the story revolves around. No other FF, other than maybe FFXIII towards the end, has lost sight of its intended protagonist completely like FFXII did.

If you didn't like Tidus' character because he was whiney, bitchy, immature, whatever... Too bad! The story revolved around him and he was more successful as a protagonist than Vaan will ever be. The fact is is that the end-product of XII intended to revolve around Vaan and Vaan stopped being significant after you acquired Basch. Vaan becomes even more insignificant when Ashe is in your party as well. No one can hate on Vaan because no one knows who he is by the end of that game. And if you want to talk about completely useless characters, let's talk about Penelo.

FFX might not have been your cup of tea but FFXII is definitely far from perfect in terms of story and character development.

For a start, when did I say that FF12 was perfect? When did I ever say anything even remotely like that?! I have spoken many times of my love for FF12, but if you look in the appropriate forums, you'll see I never make any such claims about the game and its characters. I think both are very good and show great promise, but were undermined both by a series of unfortunate decisions before development started, but primarily the exit of the first director. Because what they did have was working well in the first half, but the second half suffers, and we all know why.

Vaan and Penelo are underused for sure, but is not the overuse of a terminally irritating character far, far worse than the underuse of a decent but unremarkable set of characters? I hate Tidus for all the reasons you state, and just saying too bad if I don't like it is a hand wave at a very serious problem. Characters as bad as Tidus are highly divisive and when put in such prominent roles can derail the whole enterprise. Would the people who moan about Vaan have actually liked to see him in a more central role? No, like hell they would! Western audiences hate emo whiners like him and Tidus and Hope etc etc. But whilst the other two have only average screen time, we are force fed Tidus in all his crying, shouting, obnoxious ''glory'.

The fact is, I didn't like FF10 anyway, but his involvement made a bad game, unendurably awful. And let's not try to go down the avenues of 'That's your opinion etc etc', because as I think your post made plain, Tidus' reputation as a (to quote your examples) 'whiney, bitchy, immature' fool of a main character is well known. Not everyone agrees with that, and I'm not saying they should.

But everyone is aware that this feeling about the character is out there. The fact that Vaan is underused is beneficial to many, because it allows more popular characters like Basch and Balthier to take more of a central role. And I think we all know that Basch was supposed to be the main character, save for executive meddling et al. And for that, I have railed against Square many times, because it was pure cowardice.

But that doesn't alter the fact that I consider FF12 to be the best FF of the last decade. A game doesn't need to be perfect to be the best, it just needs to be better than the rest. And in that respect, I think it is - I certainly think its a hell of a lot better than FF10, which is IMO the worst installment of the FF6 and onwards era.

For a start, when did I say that FF12 was perfect? When did I ever say anything even remotely like that?! I have spoken many times of my love for FF12, but if you look in the appropriate forums, you'll see I never make any such claims about the game and its characters. I think both are very good and show great promise, but were undermined both by a series of unfortunate decisions before development started, but primarily the exit of the first director. Because what they did have was working well in the first half, but the second half suffers, and we all know why.

I said that the story and character development is far from perfect. I wasn't inferring that you were saying it. I'm not going to go through all of your posts in the appropriate forums because I have better things to do.



Vaan and Penelo are underused for sure, but is not the overuse of a terminally irritating character far, far worse than the underuse of a decent but unremarkable set of characters? I hate Tidus for all the reasons you state, and just saying too bad if I don't like it is a hand wave at a very serious problem. Characters as bad as Tidus are highly divisive and when put in such prominent roles can derail the whole enterprise. Would the people who moan about Vaan have actually liked to see him in a more central role? No, like hell they would! Western audiences hate emo whiners like him and Tidus and Hope etc etc. But whilst the other two have only average screen time, we are force fed Tidus in all his crying, shouting, obnoxious ''glory'.

You're missing the point. Vaan is an empty protagonist. Vaan is a failed protagonist. Tidus is a fulfilled protagonist. Therefore Tidus>Vaan when it comes to a properly written protagonist. And I'm not even gonna dive into the whole "they switched writers" thing because a beginning-end protagonist journey is basic to creative writing and the new writer should have caught onto that right away.

I don't care who the western gamers would have wanted to see as a protagonist but when you designate a character as a protagonist, you have to make it work or you have to re-write the story. That is where FFXII starts to mess up; it forgets who it revolves around.

Who is Vaan at the end of the game? Bottom line is that you don't get to know who he is at all. His story stops around Garif Village. That's it! Vaan is done for the remaining 3/4 of the game! We don't know who he is so we can't hate on him for being similar to Tidus at all lol! We don't know him well enough to even know if he is a whiney emo boy! That is a huge mistake that they made because the protagonist is someone you are suppose to relate to the most.

And who the hell is Penelo? Explain how she contributes to the storyline, supports the main character, contributes to the solution, etc. Please explain her purpose to me and I will give you a cookie. She's this random-ass chick who's placing herself in rediculous amounts of danger because...? She's in love with Vaan? That's not a good enough reason to have her in the story as one of the main-party members. Also who said the protagonist had to be likable? There are MANY stories that intend on having the audience dislike the protagonist. Just food for thought.



But everyone is aware that this feeling about the character is out there. The fact that Vaan is underused is beneficial to many, because it allows more popular characters like Basch and Balthier to take more of a central role. And I think we all know that Basch was supposed to be the main character, save for executive meddling et al. And for that, I have railed against Square many times, because it was pure cowardice.

No, no, no, no, no. Vaan being underused is a huge screw up on the new writer's part. Let's not make excuses for it being beneficial because at the end of the game, it was actually very confusing as to who the story revolved around. We are being sold from the get-go that Vaan is the main character... The other characters are supposed to support him, not the other way around. And saying that Vaan and Penelo contribute to the story by being "up-staged" the entire time so that the other characters can shine is hilarious. Why not just cut them out completely from the game? Makes more sense to me especially considering that Vaan was intended on being the main character. To me, this is very basic storytelling elements that FFXII fails to deliver.

For the record, I honestly think that the character who had the most protagonistic qualities was Ashe. She has the most to lose and the most to gain; this equation is the essence of any protagonist. They have to be someone who has the most to gain, and the most to lose. Vaan doesn't hold a candle to Ashe or Basch as a protagonist. He doesn't even make a decent supporting character. And that is why he IS the worst protagonist to exist in this series. He has almost nothing to gain, he has almost nothing to lose, he is up-staged by his supporting characters, and he loses any purpose at all after Garif Village. Tidus has a purpose during the whole game and that purpose changes as you play through.

Yeah,tidus purpose is to find out the misteries as to what happened to zanarkand,and find his father to confront him.
He has more reason than most anyone to be in the story,because its more centered around him,while characters like:UGH! kimahri are just blank characters with bland personalities.As for sin: Yu yevon is the bad guy,not sin.You hear about yu yevon during the game.
As for who is better:I honestly don't like either.I think that seymour would have made a better villain than yu yevon,because he isn't some evil entity that does things just because.I felt sephiroth could have been a stronger villain personally,but thats just me.I found that sephiroth only appeared in flashbacks a few times,and his development from hero turned villain turns too fast without enough time to make you really believe it.

Oh yeah:What about the laughing scene in FFX? he wasn't whining there.Also:Tidus whines far less than hope does.

No, your're missing the point Scryer, which is hardly surprising since you take such a dimissive view of what other people say and think, and can't bothered to check your facts before putting words in people's mouths.

I don't defend Vaan and Penelo's lack of use as a good thing for the story, and I've said many, many times that I think their fading away in importance is a huge mistake. My opinion has always been that since Vaan was presented the main character and part of the game had already been written with him fulfilling that role at the time the new writer took up his pen, it was extremely unfortuante that the new writer did an about face on that and all but wrote him out in the second half, because said new writer plainly didn't care for him.

But whilst the story obviously gets skewed by this decision, forcing a writer to go against his instincts and write for a character for whom he is not feeling his creative juices flow is not really a solution that would work any better. That's why I say that Square were placed in an impossible position. You can't just click your fingers and conjure a writer out of thin air who will feel the exact same sense of connection with the full cast of characters and ideas that the original guy had. But I think the new writer's lack of interest in Vaan just exposes how indifferent most people feel towards him anyway.

Ergo, I believe that to truly make the story of FF12 perfect, it would require root and branch restructuring from the start, to prepare the way for Ashe or Basch to be the main character. Vaan and penelo can stay (because as I say, I don't have nearly as much of a problem with them as some do), but they need to do more. I.e if the story had continued with the original writer, it would have been a more complete story, but people's lack of real connection with Vaan as the main character would persist.

So my point was that the change in focus from Vaan was surprising and detrimental to the story, but whilst it was confusing and disappointing that the story lost its way and could have been more etc, I would still rather have a story that spoke to me and engaged me, even if it didn't end up going in exactly the direction I would have hoped, than one that left me utterly cold throughout. I'd rather have a character that I could abide even if I didn't particularly care for him, than a loud, bellowing buffoon who made every scene such torture and who made it hard to see past him towards anything of substance in the story that I did actually like.

I committed to play FF10 through to the end, because I am a loyal fan of the series. But there were many, many times when I didn't think I was going to make it. Because I *hate* Tidus so much that I find it hard to care about his story or the story or any story when he is around. You say a main character doesn't have to be likeable and that's certainly true, but such things have to handled with extreme care. In this case, it wasn't and my complete aversion to that character made being at all interested in large swathes of the story far more heavy going than it should be.

But I didn't get my literature PHD by not being able to put aside personal feelings about characters and story etc. I can and do appraise these things objectively as well as subjectively, and I've also stated (on this thread as well I believe), that even without him, I don't like FF10's story anyway. I find it leaden for the most part and painfully overwrought at others, all in service to a story that has been told many, many times with characters I like much better in worlds I like much better.

Tidus just makes an unenjoyable and tiresome experience even worse, especially when other key characters irritate me so much as well (Seyour and Jecht for example). There are times when the story finally comes together for an interesting scene or two (the encounter with Yunalesca, with Wakka and Auron's reactions to her revelations, is by far my favourite moment of that game, and the only reason I don't consider playing that game a total waste of time).


Oh, and Vaan has nothing to gain? His brother was killed by Gabranth and Vayne, and he has no reason to be on the quest? Evidently, you don't value your family's lives very much. It must be very comforting to them to know that you wouldn't want justice to be done if something happend to them...

And I can't believe that anyone would bring up the laughing scene as a good thing. One of the all time lows of Final Fantasy, and a scene where I almost clawed through my face, I was face palming so much trying to just get the hell away from it. I also find it outrageous that you would accuse Hope of whining more than Tidus. Tidus is like the world champion at being emo, entitled and just all around irritating - he just misses out on being in my top 3 least favourite Video game characters, but he's still right up there.

As for Sephiroth, I consider him the finest example of how to write villain, seeded liberally throughout the story, appearing at key moments, having a connection with the main character, and just getting a lot of screen time and stuff to do. Most villains nowadays don't get this, showing up too little, or not having or developing any strong ties to the party etc. I think the character suffers after his true awakening in the crater, because then he all but vanishes from the game and even when you meet him at the end, he says nothing. But then, there are very few RPGs of West or East origin that I think have good second halves. FF7 is a more complete experience than most, but even it can't sustain all the way to the end, and it runs out of steam on Disc 3.

But anyway, that's just how I feel about FF10, FF12 etc. I much prefer the more down to earth, grittier version of Final Fantasy presented in FF12. FF10 is just too glossy, has too many happy island folk swanning around in Bermuda Shorts playing water polo and singing hymns at flying whales. And any time that a story goes near the dreaded 'Son has an inferiority complex because of his successful Dad', that's the cue for the emo music to start up... No thanks!

Je suis amus�.



The fact that Vaan is underused is beneficial to many, because it allows more popular characters like Basch and Balthier to take more of a central role.


I don't defend Vaan and Penelo's lack of use as a good thing for the story, and I've said many, many times that I think their fading away in importance is a huge mistake. My opinion has always been that since Vaan was presented the main character and part of the game had already been written with him fulfilling that role at the time the new writer took up his pen......

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E <----- Guess what this spells. Hint: You won't like it :) .



But I didn't get my literature PHD by not being able to put aside personal feelings about characters and story etc. I can and do appraise these things objectively as well as subjectively......

Could've fooled me. Your arguments are driven by emotions, not facts. Someone with a Ph.D in literature would be able to do more for your argument; so I'm not buying that today.

I'm not going to go back into your hate for FF10. You've made your point; you hate FF10 with a passion; we get it. Now move onto some facts. Right now you display "broken-record syndrome"; you keep repeating things and just altering how you say it. We've heard about this hate for FF10 for about three posts now; get over it, move onto something else because I don't care about how you much you hate FF10. It isn't doing anything for your argument except exposing how you let your emotions mask your reasoning skills.



But whilst the story obviously gets skewed by this decision, forcing a writer to go against his instincts and write for a character for whom he is not feeling his creative juices flow is not really a solution that would work any better...... You can't just click your fingers and conjure a writer out of thin air who will feel the exact same sense of connection with the full cast of characters and ideas that the original guy had. But I think the new writer's lack of interest in Vaan just exposes how indifferent most people feel towards him anyway.

Stop making excuses for the new writer. He was paid to finish a story. If he didn't connect to Vaan as the main character, then he had to get over it. If Vaan, as the main character, wasn't going to work out then he needed to re-write the story. The new writer's lack of interest gave us a sloppy story whether you want to admit it or not. A Protagonist's beginning - end journey is basic. Kids learn this in high-school. To be honest, a professional writer should be able to produce a proper beginning - end journey for Vaan (the protagonist). Instead what we got was a story that truly doesn't have a protagonist by the end of the game. Any other writer would have jumped for an opportunity to be the lead writer of a final fantasy game.



Ergo, I believe that to truly make the story of FF12 perfect, it would require root and branch restructuring from the start, to prepare the way for Ashe or Basch to be the main character. Vaan and penelo can stay (because as I say, I don't have nearly as much of a problem with them as some do), but they need to do more. I.e if the story had continued with the original writer, it would have been a more complete story, but people's lack of real connection with Vaan as the main character would persist.

FF10's story is full and complete. FF12 has an incomplete story. By the way I definitely agree with you about restructuring the story. FF12 has potential but I never give credit for potential. I give credit to what is playing on the screen. And just because you hate FF10's story, it doesn't make it any less complete than FF12's story and the empty zones reflect that.




Oh, and Vaan has nothing to gain? His brother was killed by Gabranth and Vayne, and he has no reason to be on the quest?

Oh he was on the quest for revenge? I sure as hell didn't know that since I don't know almost anything about Vaan since he's such a weak, empty, uninteresting, badly-written protagonist who has no beginning to end journey. The whole essence of Vaan's character (from what little we actually know about him) is that he was orphaned when his brother was killed; and that he thinks that Basch had his brother killed. This important aspect of Vaan's character was dismissed so quickly when it was really climax-material. As my professor would say, "This was good, deep shit to write about". Anways this quality was dismissed when Basch basically told Vaan that it wasn't him after they escaped from Nalbina. Funny thing is is that Basch never mentions that he has a twin brother and it doesn't make sense that Vaan would believe anything that he say's at that point in the story. The new writer unprofessionally dismissed the only interesting part of Vaan's character that could've kept him a solid protagonist. That's weak and pathetic, and this is exactly why Vaan is the worst protagonist of the series. Period.

Vaan is this boy who wants to be a sky-pirate and to avenge his brother's death. Ashe, on the otherhand, wants to restore Dalmasca's former glory/cultural identity and create peace between the Empires. Now tell me who has more to gain and more to lose? Rhetorical questions aside, I will admit that I am wrong about Vaan not having anything to gain.. But Ashe's goals and Basch's goals will outshine Vaan's goals at any point in the story. The real protagonist of the story has the MOST to lose and the MOST to gain in the story and it clearly isn't Vaan even though the writer passes him off as the protagonist. And the writer failed at indicating who the real protagonist is. As a comparison to your favourite game, Yuna and Tidus have the MOST to lose and the MOST to gain in FF10 and it is clear that they are the protagonists during the entire game.



Evidently, you don't value your family's lives very much. It must be very comforting to them to know that you wouldn't want justice to be done if something happend to them...

Hey Mr. Ph D, grow up. Remember when I said that your emotions mask your reasoning skills? Apply that statement to the quoted post above. You know nothing of me in real life so your weightless, hollow assumption doesn't affect me. I hope that you find it comforting that I found your personal attack quite amusing :) . I don't want a flame war but you did let a pinch of immaturity show; check yourself.

What is your problem exactly? You deliberately misrepresent what people say, even when we actually agree about almost everything!

I said it was beneficial to many - i.e to the players, not to the story. There is a differance, not that you seem to realise that. A story can be fantastic, but if no-one wants to read it, play it, watch it because of issues with the characters putting them off, then what good is that story? And you can knock yourself out calling me a hypocrite, but my views on Vaan and his role in the story are a matter of record on the FF12 threads. If you can't be bothered looking them up, then that's not my problem.

If you *had* bothered to do that, you'd also have known that I use Ashe as my party leader, precisely because I consider her to be the strongest protagonist of the game, and the true leader of the party as the game develops. She isn't the best choice for combat leader, but it doesn't feel right to me to use anyone else. Again, a matter of record - again, your own fault for not checking your facts first and putting words in people's mouths.

And you didn't realise Vaan was on a quest for revenge... well, that just says it all, doesn't it? The bit where he attacks Basch because he thinks he is the one responsible didn't give it away, no? Or when he talks about it to Basch and Ashe, and later attacks Vayne. Is it the game's fault that you can't pay attention? And assumption is hollow, is it? You couldn't recognise why a man might be upset when a close family member was murdered? I think that speaks volumes, don't you?

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse others of not looking at facts, when you ignore such an obvious character motivation. I mean what did you think his reaction would be to his brother's murder by Arcadia? Happiness?! If the murder of a family member isn't sufficient reason to want to oppose the Empire, then what is?! The idea of the young hero who comes from nothing to oppose the mighty empire is an extremely old one. And we will never know what direction Vaan's story would have taken him in from this very familiar start. Its not as if the character simply was poor and had no story to begin with - just that his story was nipped in the bud by a new writer who basically wrote him out.

You're completely failing to take into account the change of writers and are just pounding Vaan and Penelo for not developing as characters and having little story, when there is a clear reason why this is the case. Its not ideal at all, but I say again that it could hardly have been helped. Square couldn't force the original writer to continue if he was sick, and if the new writer had tried to continue focusing on them when he wasn't feeling any inspiration for these characters, it would have been awful.

And for someone who loves facts so much, you don't seem to mind carrying on putting words in my mouth, when you have been told repeatedly that I think nothing of the sort and you could easily check that (you don't even have to go to another website - its right here!)

You don't wanti a flame war... Who are you trying to kid exactly? Mr PHD indeed... I suppose you think the more qualified someone is, the less they must acutally know, right? I could quite easily put you in contact with plenty of people on this site who know I listen to what others say and value their opinions. But I'm not going to run away from the fact that I studied criticism for years, and feel like I know what I'm talking about. I mentioned my qualifications because you questioned my ability to seperate emotional response to a subject from cold analysis of its qualities. You were wrong - again.

You go out of your way to manufacture some huge disagreement, despite the fact that we've spent this thread basically agreeing with each other (in a very hostile and argumentative way). The only thing we acually do seem to disagree on is the value on enjoyment in a story. You think a dull story, properly told but with an off-putting and irritating protagonist is better than a good story, badly told.with an underwhelming protagonist.

And the thing is, if this was a case of one man screwing up his story, because of incompetance, wasting the good work of the first half, then that would be very poor. But it wasn't - this was a completely new writer coming in for the second half. Up until that happened, it was a good story, being well told but with an underwhelming protagonist.

You're just looking for trouble, so I'm going to end it there. No doubt you'll try to steal the initiative back, and try to work your way to saying something like 'Oh, if you want to keep arguing, and have to be the one to have the last say etc etc etc'. You seem like the sort of person who does, and that's the usual format for these things, right?

Or instead, you know what? Forget it, argument over. You win, well argued. Take your parting shots and content yourself with them.

I'll play.


I said it was beneficial to many - i.e to the players, not to the story. There is a difference, not that you seem to realise that.

I sense a doctor that is making an excuse. I also corrected your spelling.



And you didn't realise Vaan was on a quest for revenge... well, that just says it all, doesn't it? The bit where he attacks Basch because he thinks he is the one responsible didn't give it away, no? Or when he talks about it to Basch and Ashe, and later attacks Vayne. Is it the game's fault that you can't pay attention?

Yeah I sure didn't realize it when there was one scene where he attacks Basch, one scene where he talks about it, one part in the game where he attacks Vayne with over 100 hours of gameplay inbetween. My apologies but I did forget about that aspect of Vaan because I was too busy grinding my characters to reach the next stage of the game. It's even more time spent if you decide to do the side-quests before you finish the game. That's a huge problem in a game IMO because there's no point in telling an in-depth story if the players can't even remember it.

The "highlights" of Vaan's events that you pointed out, was good stuff to write about. I hate to repeat myself but those aspects were character-climax-worthy and the new writer ignored that.



You're completely failing to take into account the change of writers and are just pounding Vaan and Penelo for not developing as characters and having little story, when there is a clear reason why this is the case.

When you are paid to do a job, you do the job to the best of your abilities, period. You might have felt that the new writer wrote FF12's second half to the best of his abilities but I sure don't because having a beginning to end journey of the protagonist is basic. I honestly believe that the new writer forgot what he was writing about.

You fail to note that FF12's story (the second half) was written very badly because it misses elementary elements of story-telling (such as a proper protagonist, ignoring Rozzaria and the Rebellion's activities, etc). I have been criticizing the writing of FF12 since the beginning. It was written badly by the new writer no matter which way you look at it.



And assumption is hollow, is it? You couldn't recognise why a man might be upset when a close family member was murdered? I think that speaks volumes, don't you?

Mr. Ph D, grow up. Your immaturity is showing again. This is not a flattering pattern for you. You're making assumptions based on someone you never met in real life. Stop using these kinds of accusations to add length to your argument, it's immature. I never started to criticize on your character until you criticized mine, so keep me out of this discussion and stick to the topic.... Capiche?



You go out of your way to manufacture some huge disagreement, despite the fact that we've spent this thread basically agreeing with each other (in a very hostile and argumentative way). The only thing we acually do seem to disagree on is the value on enjoyment in a story. You think a dull story, properly told but with an off-putting and irritating protagonist is better than a good story, badly told.with an underwhelming protagonist.

I just have issues when someone thinks that Vaan is actually a better WRITTEN (not liked) protagonist than Tidus. And that's how this whole thing got started.



And for someone who loves facts so much, you don't seem to mind carrying on putting words in my mouth, when you have been told repeatedly that I think nothing of the sort and you could easily check that (you don't even have to go to another website - its right here!)

Honestly I'm not going to research your opinion on these boards because I don't care enough to put the effort into it like I said before. I have never asked that of you so don't ask that of me. If your previous opinions were so important (and were related to the discussion) then quote them! I'm not discussing this topic to get to know who you are and what your previous opinions are; I'm discussing this topic to prove a point. Don't get it twisted.



You're just looking for trouble, so I'm going to end it there. No doubt you'll try to steal the initiative back, and try to work your way to saying something like 'Oh, if you want to keep arguing, and have to be the one to have the last say etc etc etc'. You seem like the sort of person who does, and that's the usual format for these things, right?

I might be proving you right about having the last word.... But I'm not letting this one go. I totally would have been cool if you wanted to leave the discussion and you would'nt be reading this now. If you really wanted to end this discussion you wouldn't have given me this huge post to read. You would have just said something along the lines of "I've said my piece, I'm leaving the discussion", instead you gave me a full response which doesn't make much sense when you claim that you really wanted to end the discussion. Actions speak louder than words.

If you really wanted to leave the discussion then leave! It's not a big deal but don't give a full reply to what I just said and claim that I'm the one who's "looking for trouble" and trying to "have the last say" because that's not really fair. If anything that is a prime example of someone who wants to have the last say and runs away... But wait I'm putting words in your mouth again right? Bottom-line: If you're gonna talk about it; be about it.

What annoys me about FFXIII,is not only that you are shoehorned into playing the game the way it wants,it pretty much plays out the same with the same cutscenes,so there really is no reason to replay it again.The strategy always will remain the same:Weak>get your ass kicked re level=win again.

Besides that,farming platinum ingots is a real chore that shouldn't be so boring and needlessly repetitious.