I am a bit confused about what exactly Rebirth sephiroth and Safer*Sephiroth are. to me, the first appears like a cocoon and the second a being made not only of S original body, but also of the lifestream, therefore effectively a "holy" being, even if not benevolent at all. what do you think?

This thread is a month old, but I dont think I am necroing it. Anyway, I always found this part interesting and I always left FF7 as a standalone game, fuck reunion advent children whatever (I could see Zack's story as acceptable but FF7 ended with FF7 for me).

So, we know 1 thing:

1) Sephiroth is dead. His physical body anyway. It was thrown into the lifestream and definitely not the thing you're fighting. Because he has mad Jenova cells, he can exert significant influence over Jenova and the Sephiroth Clones and SOLDIERS.

2) You're chasing Jenova throughout the game. But you're chasing the Jenova that Sephiroth is controlling. Birth, Life, Death, Synthesis.

3) You kill them all and then get to Rebirth Sephiroth. I think this is a body created by the multiple sephiroth clones and the remaining Jenova cells. This is an attempt Sephiroth is using to reach a body capable of being a god.

4) You kill rebirth sephiroth, forcing him to either a) prematurely evolve to Seraph Sephiroth or b) reveal his ultimate form of Seraph Sephiroth. It isn't the original body, merely a manifestation of Sephiroth's will, similar to Rebirth Sephiroth.

5) Sephiroth tries to take over Cloud's body who is last remaining vestige of Sephiroth's will. WIthout defeating him there, Sephiroth will live forever. So Cloud fucks him proper and game is over.

I wonder why I got no notification of this.

Why he'll live forever if cloud loses?

Interesting theory. I've never asked the question before, even though I just finished FF7 for the second time and the ending is fresh on my mind.

I can't remember how many times people would argue that In FF7 you were fighting the real Sephiroth. Such bullshit. Dragon is absolutely correct and has opened my eyes to the final scene between Sephiroth and Cloud.

Of course, Cloud had Jenova cells implanted in him during the Nibelheim incident. So if he was the last person around with jenova cells, it's the only possible option. If the jenova cells are able to take over Cloud's body, then Sephiroth is reborn.

Cloud is a failure as Hojo's experiment because he was the only one strong enough to fight them.

TAKE THAT all you "Cloud's a whiney bitch" haters.

But, to be fair, Cloud is a whiney bitch.

exactly. far from being weak, he was the strongest. Zack could not be used because of his soldier training.

so S' plan was to be reborn from cloud? even if you DO fight the real deal at the northern crater?

Yup. Seems to be the most logical conclusion. You're obviously not fighting the human Sephiroth born from Lucrecia. I think the producers made it clear that anyone can become Sephiroth in Advent Children, so I'd assume the Sephiroth pillaging the world is just a clone who transformed.

I think it's safe to say it was probably one of the hooded jenova subjects who transformed when s/he came in contact with Jenova at Shinra HQ at the beginning of the game, considering you hear NOTHING about Sephiroth prior to that incident.

As for Sephy trying to take over Cloud...it's either that (since Cloud was infused with Jenova cells, making him a potential subject) or it was some deep philosophical shit about Cloud overcoming his fears or whatever. I doubt it's the latter.

yeah, it could make a very anticlimatic ending LOL

I think that it is the body of jenova at shinra HQ the sephiroth fought during the game, even if only pieces (arm of JENOVA, gross). the hooded subjects all vanish after the northern crater first visit. and let's not forget the people in midgar with a tattoo on their hand...

Well...as the game states at some point...all Jenova cells try to reunite. Obviously, considering everything that happens, the jenova subjects would have either died or successfully reunited, making Sephiroth what he was.

Yes, in Shinra HQ it was the body, as Sephiroth took the head with him in the flashback. So the head would have died with him when he fell to the bottom of the Reactor. So I'd assume the most concentrated Jenova cells would be in that body. Hojo would still be experimenting with Jenova inside Shinra HQ. It could very well all have occured inside Shinra HQ under Hojo. We'll never truly know, but I think it's safe to assume whoever let out Jenova would have became Sephiroth at that moment.

but sephiroth did not die in the lifestream, did he? being condensed life, he in fact got empowered by it..

Sephiroth's physical body perished but his will did not, or so it seems. In fact, I have an additional theory if you guys read this long, boring explanation. There are two different theories regarding a person's soul. One, is that a soul is a combination of both body and mind. Together, they make a person's soul. The second, is that the soul is entirely in the person's brain because the brain controls all functions of the body. In a way, the body is just a tool for the brain.

When Sephiroth took Jenova's head, I believe he took one of the most important parts of Jenova: her brain. When he was thrown into the Lifestream, I feel that his will was taken over by that of Jenovas within the lifestream. This allowed Jenova to not only have a vessel with which to remotely control her remaining body but also something with which to draw the Jenova cell clones to. All in all, I believe that essentially, Sephiroth became Jenova. Afterwards, I believe Jenova was trying to restore itself to its former power, drawing its body towards the northern crater. Jenova was noted for taking different forms when attacking the Cetra and I feel that this was consistent with Sephiroth being used, especially when his form was used to kill Aeries. Immediately after her death, you fought a piece of Jenova. This suggests that Jenova is not working as Sephiroth's agent but that Jenova (after being contained for so long) now has a will of its own. Her strike against Aeries was even more vindictive because of her past history with the Cetra (Aeries being the last Cetra).

Therefore, the final boss may not have been Sephiroth at all. It may have been Jenova who was forced to use a warped version of Sephiroth's form. In the final battle against Seraph Sephiroth, it may have been that Seraph Sephiroth comes extremely close to the form of a God, the ultimate goal of Jenova. Because Sephiroth was intertwined with Jenova, his genetic code and form was the one she could easily assume. Furthermore, the final battle with Cloud within his head may been the following: The Jenova cells within Cloud are the final vestiges of Jenova herself, and while Cloud is still near the Lifestream (where she was most concentrated), she intended to take Cloud as her new vessel. It was a last ditch attempt to survive. Cloud never fought Sephiroth, but a form that Jenova assumed would leave Cloud most vulnerable. Clearly, she made the wrong decision.

In either way, the question of who was in control at the very end: Sephiroth or Jenova is left ambiguous. I would like to believe that in the very end, and throughout the game, the ultimate enemy is Jenova and Sephiroth was the first clone to lose his will to the Jenova cells. This may have been because Sephiroth was the only subject injected with Jenova cells while he was a baby. This may have given the cells enough time to implant themselves and take over the mind of a premature child. These cells could then have done what many viruses do and entered a lysogenic cycle, where they lay in wait until Sephiroth was at the prime vessel stage. At that prime moment, requiring a trigger such as knowledge of the Cetra (if you recall Sephiroth locked himself in the library), would have allowed the cells to activate. Because they had a long gestation period and because the cells were much like stem cells (being implanted within an embryo), they could have been in every single part of Sephiroth's body. The resulting attack by Jenova's cells drove Sephiroth mad and weakened his will enough for Jenova to completely overtake it (especially with the help of her head).

This made even more sense to me when you look at Jenova's names: Birth, Life, Death, Synthesis, Rebirth (Bizzaro), Safer (Seraph). They represent the cycle that I described. Jenova was injected into Sephiroth. Then she was born from Lucrecita, lived her life as Sephiroth, died in the reactor, synthesized (created) a vessel from Sephiroth's will and form within the lifestream, brought her body back to the northern crater and was reborn, and afterwards became a god. This is all a journey. Every time you defeated a piece of Jenova, you didn't eradicate its cells. It kept on growing. In the end, you fight a shirtless, armorless Sephiroth. This is Jenova at her base level, left with nothing except vestiges within Cloud. Here, Cloud crushes the final Jenova cells and his will dominates hers in a way that Sephiroth was fated never to.

This is the way I analyzed the game and for this reason, I thought the game's story was very very good. I understand where people who say that the plot has holes come from, and I don't mind them. This is FF7 to me though.

It makes sense, in a certain way. I'm positive, however, that the one you fight at the end is the real sephiroth, and not Jenova. Shirtless Sephiroth is a battle inside Cloud's mind, if I'm not mistaken, a battle of wills. and the ending cutscene does show a bleeding sephiroth dissolving into the lifestream...

It couldn't be remember? The only thing inside Cloud are Jenova cells, not Sephiroth cells. He had to have fought her. The end when Cloud was flowing through the Lifestream to get to the fight, it was probably his own nervous system as his body struggled with Jenova.

erm, now I admit I'm confused.

Simply put.
1) Jenova took over Sephiroth's mind when he was triggered by the Cetra at the library in Nibelheim.
2) Jenova, forced Sephiroth to take her head. Cloud, then killed Sephiroth and threw them both into the Lifestream.
3) Here, Jenova overtook Sephiroth's will and began drawing the rest of her body and the remaining clones to the Northern Crater.
4) Because Jenova's brain and Sephiroth's body were intertwined in the Lifestream, she began to readily take his form
5) Jenova killed the last Cetra
6) The parts of Jenova you fight represent her revival process: Birth, Life, Death, Synthesis, Rebirth, Seraph
7) The final boss fight is Jenova being reborn and the final final boss fight is her true form.
8) The last encounter with Cloud is against Jenova in his brain using Sephiroth's form to weaken his will and resolve. Cloud reacts opposite to what Jenova planned and defeats it.

mm, I think that there is a base mistake. it's sephiroth who overthrow jenova, not the other way round.

I already explained how that is impossible.

accordingly to the creators, it is HIS will that overcame that of the alien. they say it in commentaries.

fuck that they're retarded

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no matter what, I can't view him as a positive figure :P

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why savior? he wants to kill everyone!

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isn't that a view a bit too far-fetched?

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Continue please. Theories are quite enjoyable to hear. They can make the simplest of things so complex yet so interesting at times.

lol yes, like when studying poetry you waste all that time searching for the hidden meaning within the text... while the poet might have meant none at all :P

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Talk about Symbolism... Damn...

You're not really clarifying the story by drawing all of these historical allusions. You're just showing how historical events may have had an impact on Final Fantasy 7's themes, which is apparent in nearly every game, and not unique to FF7. Even if Square used Biblical references or World War 2 references in FF7, what does that have to do with figuring out what Seraph Sephiroth was in context of the lore presented in the game?