Okay, this is basically just a project I've been working on whenever I felt like doing it and had a spare minute available to devote to it. Basically, I've put together a list of enemy skills in the game, complete with pictures. Here's what you'll find in the guide:


A short backhistory of Blue Magic/Enemy Skills in past FF games.
An explanation of what Enemy Skills are and where and how to obtain Enemy Skill materia.
How to use Enemy Skill materia.
How to check your current Enemy Skills.
Special notes about Enemy Skills.
A helpful key to my guide as well as quick links.
A complete list of all Enemy Skills with full information about them and a picture of them in action.


The guide is around 1.5 MB, but is well worth your time to download. Currently I only have it at my personal website, so just access it here (http://agent0042.fileburst.com/eskills.zip). It's a zip file. Just unzip to a folder and then open the HTML document and it should work okay. It looks best on at at least 1024 X 768 resolution. 1280 X 1024 would be even better, if you have it.

Feel free to post here or e-mail me if you have any comments about or corrections for the guide, or you think you might be interested in hosting it or something.

In the future, I may do a text version of this or something. We'll have to see.

Good idea. It'll save useless threads arising. Though i don't need it, many others will.

Great idea. :) There should be more threads like this. ^__^

I'm going to sticky it so more people will see it.

Thanks Nymph.

thanks agent, ive always had trouble with E-skills

i've never really used enemy skills, except for that beta one, so i guess i will be using them more often in the game.

Hey, I dunno how to zip and unzip stuff so I can't see your guide. But I have a question, where can I get Bad Breath? I think that's the only skill that 2 people don't have and I know I can't go back to the glacier area where the Malboros are...

Do you have Windows XP? If so, then all you have to do is double click the zip file. Then drag the file(s) that are in it to wherever you want them and you're good to go. In any case, I'll see about working on that text-only version of the guide, so look for an update on that soon.

In any case, on to your question. If you missed Bad Breath in the glacier area, you're still in luck, as you haven't missed out on it permanently. You just need to have access to the Northern Cave. Go down to the part where you have to split up and take the right path. (I think it's the right path. It's the same path that has the Dragon Zombies and the Death Dealers. It's the opposite path of the one you'd be taking if you wanted to go fight Magic Pots.) On that path, you should be able to find the Malboros. Make sure to have Ribbons equipped on your characters to protect against the status effects, make sure you have the correct Enemy Skill materias equipped, and you're good to go. Just get into a battle with one and wait for it to cast Bad Breath. Sometimes you might get into a pattern where instead of using Bad Breath, they just use Frozen Beam on endless. If that happens, my best recommendation is to reset and try again. That'll usually solve the problem. BTW, this is actually the only way to get Bad Breath for the fourth enemy skill materia you get at the Chocobo Sage's shack.

I've read the guide...It's quiet usefull....I just have a slight information about aquiring the E.Skill Beta right after leaving midgar with the the same level you get at that time...
Here're the steps to do so:

First of all you need to get the Elemntal materia along with the Fire materia equiped in the armor of the charecter with the E.skill materia (let's say it's Cloud) and at least...That charecter's HP is 660...
Place Cloud in the back raw.
use tranqlizer on all the characters so they get the sadness status change (This will lissen the damage)..
Now you're ready for the battle...Engage with the Midgar Zolom. Make sure that Cloud stays on the defensive and his HP is full....And attack with the two other characters....I'd rather if you cast Bio till it's poisoned...
The monster will stand right after it's HP is lower than half...At that time it will try to knock one of the characters out of the battle (It knocks the character that causes the most damage so make sure cloud doesn't attack at that moment...)...
After it's HP gets to 1000 it will use beta E.skill...At that moment only Cloud will be standing so make sure you cast Beta back on it before it makes the nixt action...It'll die right after one hit from Beta and now it's yours:D...


I hope you find this post usefull:D ....

T.W.K.

Neat, that's good info. I'll go ahead and add that, with credit. I think I'll also go ahead on that text-only version of the guide, since I'm working on it anyway. I'll edit this post when everything's ready. I'll also try that myself sometime soon. I'm sure it's doable, but I'd like to try it.

Edit: I added in the strategy, but the text-only version isn't up yet. I don't know, it could be a while before I feel like getting around to this. It's a real hassle, mainly because of trying to get all the picture captions out and getting the formatting correct. But I do still want to do this because then maybe I could get it posted at a site like GameFAQs.

I'm glad you found it usefull Agent0042...
I really liked your guide.....anyways....I'll try to see if there're other ways to obtain those enemy skills other than what you mentioned even though i doubt i might find any...but i'll try...and i'm hoping of getting your last version of the guide:D

T.W.K.

Well, the version of the guide with your strategy is the one currently posted. The text-only version may be on indefinite hold because I really don't know how to get it without some kind of HTML stripper. I have a couple of ideas rattling around though that I may try, don't know if it'll work though. My next project is a Playstation vs. PC differences FAQ, that'll definitely be text-only.

Your strategy is great. I myself used it when I was playing through the Playstation version and didn't have any trouble. I think it could be useful for some of the other hard-to-learn ones as well. There's one other thing I need to put in some time, in the PC version, Magic Hammer takes MP away from the enemy, but I don't think it absorbs it. In the Playstation version, it definitely does. As for other enemies, I don't know. I think I have them all. It would be really cool if you could learn them in the battle arena, but it just doesn't let you do it. Dragon Force, I suppose maybe you could learn from that Blue Dragon in the Northern Cave if you could confuse him, but I just don't think you can. And you definitely can't manipulate him.

Edited to add: I'm looking at an FAQ right now that claims that the Bottomswell boss in Junon uses Aqualung extremely rarely. I'm not sure I buy it, but I'll check into and see if it's true.

thank u MR.Agent0042:D

about your Ultimate guid & it realy was helpfull for me.

& i also thank T.W.K. About helping u

Thank u again;)

you are so fawesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(gushes at the compliments)

i know some easy steps to getting the dragon force enemy skill:

1- equip the manipulate materia and hypnocrown(if you have it)
2- run around on the beach next by Costa del Sol
3- when you encounter a monster named adamantaimai manipulate it
4- it will have the enemy skill dragon force available to use, so go ahaed and use it.
5- now finish off the adamantaimai and dragon force is yours.

i hope you find this helpful.

That's not true. You're thinking of Death Force, not Dragon Force.

:eye: you're right my bad, but both namers aren't that dissimilar are they really,i mean you can see where the mistake came from, with just a one word difference, but thanks for pointing that out, just think of how many peoples gaming i might have disrupted if you hadn't have pointed that out :lol

sorry:(

It's okay. No big deal.

thnx i now finally now how to use the dam materia

i also thank you for this E-SKill guide. :cool:

Thank you and Happy Valentine's Day!

Oh, for anyone that doesn't know, if you don't want to download the large file off my site, a version of the guide has been available on the main FFShrine site for a while, along with a guide to other materia as well.

this will really help me with my enemy skills:D

I cant belive I didn't get the goblin punch as a enemy Skill, I mean it never even crossed my mind, well thanks for showing me and I think you should show it to the people at www.gamefaqs.com they might use it...

good work...

Glad it helped you out! I have considered putting on GameFAQs and I suppose maybe I should now that I have a version available without all the pictures. I just need to get around to doing it.

I never used Enemy skill cuz i suked with it my best was trine. Lol

Well maybe with the help of my guide, you could become enlightened to the wonders of some of the neater skills and then you won't "suk" so much with them.

Yeah man and thank you for the some what whitty gramatical insult made me chuckle.

most enemy skills can be obtained through manipulation. the best enemy skill in my opinion is shadow flare. Thank you for the guide though i was missing two skills and no matter how many times i played i could not find them. You have my thanks.

Thanks for the enemy skill guide very help full also let me find some of the enemy skills i was missin like frog song

Thank you that helped me complete my E-skill materia

Agent I think we can all agree that you have done us a great service and on behalf of everyone. I thank you.

How do i get Big Guard? I know where 2 get it, from the beach plug near costa del sol, but weneva i fight them, they neva use big guard? How do i get it?

try manipulating it

k cheers

What progam do you need to run this because it won't work in word

Also I don't see why you don't just put this information in the FF7 section of this site.

What progam do you need to run this because it won't work in word
Once you unzip it, you can just open it in your web browser. Do you have something that can unzip it? Later versions of Windows should have something that can do it automatically.


Also I don't see why you don't just put this information in the FF7 section of this site.
:) Actually, it is! Pretty much everything that's in that guide is on the site now. It just doesn't have all the neat little pictures that the downloadable version has.

Thank you for trying but it doesn't work.
I tried opening it from where it was but it just siad that "paint can't read this file" (i can't wait to get a new computer) Then i tried to open it in word but it came uot with alot of printing text (you know thw small rectangles).

Its a good guide your time and effort were very helpful

Ah, thanks for all the compliments everyone.


Thank you for trying but it doesn't work.
I tried opening it from where it was but it just siad that "paint can't read this file" (i can't wait to get a new computer) Then i tried to open it in word but it came uot with alot of printing text (you know thw small rectangles).
Paint? Paint? You don't want to open in Paint, or word either. Unzip it (you do know how to unzip it, right?) and then open the file in the set that ends in .html or .htm (I forget which) in your web browser.

I remember when I got Shadow Flare from Ultima Weapon...Indeed... It was by accident. I was fighting Ultima after chasing it several times... Before I killed it, The freaking Weapon cast Shadow Flare, which pretty much kills if not devastates your characters... Luckily, Vincent, who had Enemy Skilled acquired Shadow Flare....up to 8k damage where I remeber..not bad for a free skill. I forgot to save and I retried several times, but my enemy skill characters died...sigh...that was a loooooong time a go.

Yeah shadow flares tough to get, but back to Incubus' problem, yeah trying unzippping it, it wont work in word or paint.

i fink the best enemy skill is Big Guard, cos u get it early in the game, and its better than wall, but it takes a chunk out of ur MP

The stories about your own Enemy Skill experiences are great, but this thread is really supposed to be about the guide only. If you guys want to talk about that, feel free to start a new thread discussing Enemy Skills.

I'm useless with computers, but I will sitck to it till I get better. Do you think it will work in paint shop pro because I don't know how to unzip it. ^_^

It won't work in Paint Shop Pro because it's not a graphic. It's a webpage. Do you have Windows XP? If so, right click on the file and you should see some option that says something like "Unzip" or "Extract All." Just use that and then find the file that comes up that says eskills.htm
Just double-click it, or if that doesn't work, open it in your web browser. If you don't have those options, then I'm not sure how to help you. Just use the version over at the main site.

Thanks, don't have XP but will use the one on the main site. ^_^

That should do it.

Thanks...

either most of u guys are new to the game or ur just stupid. how can u not know how to use the enemy skill materia it's one of the most useful materias in the game besides all the other good ones. I am truly disappointed.

Perhaps they just they just missed the explanation or something about it wasn't clear to them. It is a bit different from the other materia.

Or maybe they didn't, and maybe the guide just helped them to find some Enemy Skills they were missing or helped them to appreciate a particular skill's usefulness. Or it helped them to find one of the four Enemy Skill materia that they were missing.

In any case, they're not just "stupid."

Originally posted by VincentValentine
either most of u guys are new to the game or ur just stupid. how can u not know how to use the enemy skill materia it's one of the most useful materias in the game besides all the other good ones. I am truly disappointed.

It is really useful materia, indeed but I played this game to the end without using this materia much and even after defeating the last boss, I didn't pay attention to it.

In my opininon Enemy skill could be useful for its some skills but in the end of the game,,,, it is kind of useless cause you can't really use other supporting materias with it, correct?
whereas you can cast ultema or some strong magic 8times by using Quadra-M and W-magic, what you can do with the enemy skill is just cast Shadow Flare one time, it looks cool though,.

Anyway, Big guard( was it called Mighty Guard?) is really useful.

It's true that towards the end of the game a lot of the stuff is basically junk and I think that's basically what I say in my guide. Stuff like Shadow Flare and Pandora's Box - flashy, but not all that useful. I do think that there is one that's pretty cool though, and that's Angel Whisper. Oh, and yes, it is Big Guard. It's called "Mighty Guard" in some of the other games, but here it's Big Guard.

In my opinion, Enemy Skill really shines until at least Disc 3, and I think I also indicate that in my guide.

Speaking of which, I'm planning to update my guide in the next month. I plan to tweak some of the star ratings and include some additional thoughts and explanations, based on my most recent playthrough.

is there anywhere apart from croel prison where i can learn the enemy skill laser?

Yes there is. Just check my guide.

there is no one told me

Is there a special trick to get Pandoras Box?

Usually I always get it without having big problems. The last time I played it, I didn�t get it at all. What happend? I fought this monster so often, but it never used it...... :(

This made me angry, because usually I get them all! :mad:

Manioulating usually always works. So try that.

No, doesn�t work. Tried that before. :(

No, Dragon Zombie only uses Pandora's Box once per game. Make sure you're fighting the right monster, make sure that you've got all of your Enemy Skill materia equipped and make sure it still has enough MP left to cast it because it casts it when you defeat it.

what the heck you talking about???zombie dragon uses dark flare too dude (if you have a very high luck)

What do you mean what am I talking about? I think you had better get your facts straight.

1. Yes, the Dragon Zombie does also cast Shadow Flare, which is the actual name of it, not "Dark Flare." But it also uses Pandora's Box and it only uses that once per game.

2. Luck stat has nothing to do with how often particular Enemy Skills are cast.


There seems to be a lot of bad information being passed around here, so I'll just say go back to Page 1, download my guide or go to the main site and read it and get the right information.

brilliant guide! i would post it on my website. great!!!!

quote: Originally posted by Agent0042

No, Dragon Zombie only uses Pandora's Box once per game. Make sure you're fighting the right monster, make sure that you've got all of your Enemy Skill materia equipped and make sure it still has enough MP left to cast it because it casts it when you defeat it.

I know. And usually I get it all the time. But the last time I played the game, he didn�t do it at all. I don�t know why....

I know, what monster it is, I know where to get it pretty often, everybody has a filled out Enemy skill materia equipped..... I killed it quick, I killed it slow, with magic, only with hits, with other enemy skill, whatever. I just tryed everything. Nothing worked.

But well, it won�t be the last game.... ;) but thanks....:)

That's weird. If you're certain that he never cast it and wasn't out of MP, then I guess maybe it's a bug. Can't say I've ever heard of that happening before. Sorry that happened.

I don�t know, what that was in my last game, because some things were not the usual way. :(

The level L5 death (or whatever the name was), well, the monsters casted it, but I never got it. It said "missed" all the time.

And then, when you have met your group inside the crater, and before you go to Jenova and Sephi you have to do a few fights. You jump from one to the next stone platformand usually you�ll get a fight. This time, I was just jumping through the end.

And then I couldn�t make 3 groups! The game didn�t let me. And I was not better than usually!

And my Tifa couldn�t make a damage of 9999 this time. Don�t know why. She was almost on level 99, had her best weapon, and she could only make a damage of 1200 HP.

Well, I don�t know. Many things were messed up somehow, but maybe it was really just the game..... :(

And about Pandoras Box, believe me, I never had problems with getting it before! ;)

Well, LV5 Death will say "Miss" if your characters aren't at a level that's a multiple of 5, but even if they aren't, you should still learn the skill.


Sounds like that savefile was seriously bugged. Who knows what all could have been messed up. I recommend just deleting that savefile entirely if you still have it around.

Yeah, like I said, LV 5 Death was never really a problem, either. I never ever had problems with enemy skills in this game.... :(

But like you said, maybe the savefile is bugged. I�ll do what you say and deleting it..... :(

But thanks for you help... :)

Great guide! Since I have a lot of time on my hand right now, I'll convert it to text only (if you still want it.) There are a few things I may be able to add, so I will under an apropriate heading, if that's OK. Some things may be to do with PC/PS versions. I'll upload it in a moment...

Done and done. Hope you like. Created as .txt. If you want it as HTML, do it yourself:)

The file's corrupt or something, it didn't work. There's already an HTML version at the main FFShrine site.

Do you mean that there is already a text version on the main site? If so, my time was wasted;). It may provide a quick file to those who can't be bothered to find it. And mine is better! I fixed two typos! Two! And my name is at the bottom. And a comment! Wow;)

I don't know why the file should be corrupt. I'll try again, (I missed the txt part of the valid uploads.)

hey, phild jacko, i don't advise attaching .zip files to anything as they seem to pick up viruses and rubbish really quickly...

I don't think you understand how viruses work. A virus isn't just going to materialize and attach itself to something. A zip file is usually fine as long as you know what you're doing and depending on the file type.

Well, I'm sorry, I'm just saying that whenever I usually attach .zip files they are clean and when someone recieves them, they get a virus. I don't know as much about computers as you obviously... and anyway, you shouldn't be talking about FFVII here, go to the Technical forum if you wanna insult people about virus. :(

Hmm, that's weird. Maybe it's an existing problem? Well, I guess all I'm really trying to say is that I don't think we have to worry to much about the zip files. Of course, it doesn't really matter here since you can't attach zips here anyway. So I agree, we can get back to FFVII.

i thought that the ??? e.s was a pain because those scales in the shinra mansion in nibelheim (called Jersey i think) wouldn't use it and you couldn't manipulate them!

The scales at the shinra mansion will use ???, but you should take your time on the battle sometimes. If you kill them to fast, it will be hard to get them. ;)

You can't manipulate them, that's right, but there is no need to.

If you've been into the crater, just get into a battle with them and sit there. Eventually, one of them will use it. And it doesn't have to do damage for you to aquire it. I don't know if they'll use it more if they're close to death, since no magic seems to affect them, and I can never be bothered to get it early in the game (since they never seem to appear at that time.)

This is always the last ES I get, (for no real reason.)

Are we still talking about ???? There's no enemy in the Northern Crater that uses ????

Originally posted by Agent0042
Are we still talking about ???? There's no enemy in the Northern Crater that uses ????

yeah, I know, only in the Shinra Mansion, right?

Many thanks for this guide Agent.
I could only get around 12-15 before this. Got the set now, very impressive.

quote: Originally posted by Agent0042

Are we still talking about ???? There's no enemy in the Northern Crater that uses ????

Oh, I not sure about that, but I think, there is another one that uses ???

I think, it was the monster that does the Pandoras Box, but I'm really not sure about that anymore. :(

No, the only two enemies that use ???? are the Jerseys in the Shinra Mansion (which appear throughout the game, they just have a low encounter rate, that's all) and the Behemoth monster only available to fight during the Return to Sector 8 mission at the end of Disc 2.

Oh yeah, that was the other one. The Behemoth monster. But as far as I do remember, they did that to me in the Northern Crater. And they actuelly did a little damage, too. Not like the ones in the Shinra Mansion. They never damaged me with their ??? ;)

You have to be thinking of some other skill. There is no enemy in the Northern Crater that uses ????. I guarantee it.

I was talking about Behemoth. It does the Enemy Skill ??? sometimes. And it is also at the Northern Crater. For sure!

No, that's a different type of Behemoth down in the Crater, a King Behemoth. They're not the same monster and King Behemoth's don't use ????.

Sorry I'm late.

The reason I mentioned the Crater was because I assumed that you would be of high level if you had already been there. What I should have said is "If you are of high level, just sit their and eventually the Jerseys will use it."

No magic affects them, so you can't use a low level spell to weaken them. Even my Morph is enough to kill them. Just wait in their battle, let them attack and attack, and they will eventually use it.

Agent0042,
yeah your right. It is King Behemoth. I forgot about this one. But I always thought there was another monster doing the ??? :(

If no other monster does ???, it was just my fault then, and want to say sorry. But if there is another one, I'll let you know. ;)

Yeah, sorry, I just caused you all a big conversation for nothing really. I realised after a while that the King behemoth used it as well, but as I was going to reply, you 2 had already solved it.

I need three more enemy skills to have a master enemy skill materia. I need:
Chocobuckle, and two others.

Originally posted by Vivi FF
Hey, I dunno how to zip and unzip stuff so I can't see your guide. But I have a question, where can I get Bad Breath? I think that's the only skill that 2 people don't have and I know I can't go back to the glacier area where the Malboros are...
They're also really deep in the Northern Cave.

Yeah on the left path, I think...not the right path that's the Marshy area with Magic Pots and M. Tonberries.

I accidently sold my Chocobo Lure materias and I cannot get Chocobuckle.

I don't know what to tell you, except that without Chocobo Lure, you can't find any chocobos, and therefore no Chocobuckle. Have you looked over at the Chocobo Ranch. I think there's supposed to be an extra one by the pen in Disc 2 or 3. I think it might also be possible to dig one up from Bone Village, although I'm not certain on that one. Other than that, I'm afraid you might be stuck.

yup definetly a great guide and so helpful n sure wud keep useless threads reagardin e-skills arising. i found it very helpful cos i wanna finish with all skills materia n limits all the works :P

I dont know if we already talked about this, but how do you actually aquire the enemy skill chocobuckle? i tried manipulating a chocobo during battle but to no avail. all i need is that skill and ill be complete. help??

Download the guide, or view it at the main site.

I dont know if we already talked about this, but how do you actually aquire the enemy skill chocobuckle? i tried manipulating a chocobo during battle but to no avail. all i need is that skill and ill be complete. help??

Use Lv4 Suicide on a chocobo in the Mideel area. Thats it, simple.

how many enemy skills are there?the most I ever got was about 8

You know, this thread is all about a guide I made that tells you info such as exactly that. Why not go back to the first post of thread and take a look?

You know, this thread is all about a guide I made that tells you info such as exactly that. Why not go back to the first post of thread and take a look?

i think people assmue that this is a thread to ask about enemy skills, and are completely missing your brilliant guide.

Yeah, that's because people just come in to post stuff without actually reading through the threads.

ive just downloaded it.very useful.thanks

Excellent! If you have any further questions, now you can ask, but I think with the guide, you should be well on your way to building up a great Enemy Skill set.

hopefully.ive done pretty much everything else

'K.

BTW, I just uploaded a new version that adds a few tips that were sent into me by e-mail. It's not a major update, but if anyone wants to download it, you can say you have the newest version.

nah,no need thanks.all i need is in your first guide.great work by the way

Just a quick update, the guide is now at a new location: http://agent0042.fileburst.com/eskills.zip

thats a sweet guide nice job

Agent0042, i put your guide to practice...i never got all E skills on all four materia before...the guide was a lot easier to follow than an all text guide. Beta was a pain in the @$$ to learn later in the game though.

Beta was a pain in the @$$ to learn later in the game though.
Trying to get it to use it without killing it first? Yeah. Glad you were able to get them all, congrats! And thanks for the compliment on the format --- that was exactly the idea.

Beta is so fucking useful.best time to get it is off the Midgar Zolom when you get the buggy.make sure you have the fire ring on though.it kills everything in one go nearly up til Temple of the Ancient nearly

i really liked aqualung although getting it was hard

Just a reminder, this isn't a general Enemy Skills discussion thread. If you have thoughts on particular Enemy Skills, start another topic if there isn't one already.

I used Aqualung the most then followed by Trine :)
I really loved the enemy skills. Never ever got Chocobuckle though.

trine is handy because it only uses 18MP i think

(beats head against wall)

(opens another bottle of carlsberg and thinks 'what a nazi')

the only one i had trouble of getting is angel whisper(i think that is the name)but chocobuckle i got by accidentlly hittin the chocobo with lv4 suicide i was suprised when that happened.

Cool that you made a guide and all, but I already got one (Versus Books: Unofficial Guide to FF7). Chocobuckle, fools!

Well, that's wonderful and all that you have your book and all, but I'd still be willing to bet that your book isn't as detailed as my guide when it comes to helping you get the skills, nor does it give you as much background information or useful tips as you would from my guide.

How much you willing to put down?

LOL. Well, I suppose it doesn't matter, really, the whole thing is academic, isn't it?

Yeah

i have had all eskills except for that chocobo one. never knew how to get it. real bitch too, getting every single one but being 1 short. thanx

For the love of god please don't revive old threads.

"Fot" the love of god please read the forum charter (Thread 27678).

You spelt "for" wrong agent.

@Killa 7


1) posting in old threads is (and has always been) allowed provided something significant is being added and it's not done chronically.

2) I've stated a thousand times that starting flame wars over minor shit like this (or going on about what is or isn't allowed and thus derailing a thread) is a thousand times worse than reviving an old thread. don't do it again. thx.

FAO EVERYONE:

you are not a mod. it is not your responsibility to tell people (correctly or not-- albeit incorrectly in this instance) what is and isn't allowed. if someone is doing something you believe to be against the rules, use the report post feature.

Ok fair enough, my apologies.

You spelt "for" wrong agent.
"Fot" is the next "frindle."

LOL...enemy skill? you NEEDED that? Enemy + 'Ultima Weapon + Double Slash = Problem Solved

thnx for beta. got it as soon as i got there, i used to think the zolom was impossible to beat that early

No problem, 9inn, glad to know this guide is still helping people after all this time. Of course, that particular tip was contributed by The Wandering Knight, who I don't believe is around anymore.