I got it the day it came out and did not put the controller down for anything pretty much. I thought it was great from beginning to end, and even after the end! So I'm just wondering what people hated about it so much?

If it's the battle system being auto, why is that a bad thing? I mean in the old FF's weren't you just pushing X to attack, then down-X-X to select a spell? In this game, all you have to do is press it once and don't have to worry about selecting it. But if it really bothers you so much, you can still manually select it!

If it's the linear path in the game, well I think that's awesome! I'm a perfectionist and HATE to beat a game without getting everything. This time around I can beat the game first, THEN worry about getting everything, plus you get a new crystarium level!

If it's the story, well I can't help you there. Stories are always a personal opinion. For example, FF8 is my absolute fav game of ALL time, but many don't like it cause the story. I thought the story in 7 was awesome too, but to me, it just didn't compare to 8.

If it's the characters, yet again that's personal opinion. I hate little kids (notice how they ALWAYS appear in JRPGS???) but I found Vanille and Hope to actually not be near as annoying!

It seems to me that A LOT of people had too many high expectations of the game and when their outrageous idea wasn't in the game they were hell bent on hating it, never giving it a try. Me, I just went with the flow and didn't make any unruly ideas and just kept to reality.

But anyway, I'm just curious to know why people didn't care for it. I won't flame anybody for their opinions, and I hope you won't flame me for mine...

I'm giving you rep for that post. Cuz it's Christmas and that's how I roll.

Also, welcome to Shrine :)

SERIOUS BIDNESS MAY NOW PROCEED~

Lol thanks!
I'm not ENTIRELY new, I had an account on here a while back and can't remember my user name now...But thanks for welcoming me back anyway! =D

Because everybody's opinion is different, but a lot mutually don't enjoy this game. I personally do.

/thread

I don't hate it.
It is too linear.There are no towns and no npc intereaction.
No real minigames, just those quests which are a lot like the hunts in FFXII.Some monster you have to kill as opposed to the traditional minigames which Square seems to have abandoned.
A lack of diverse magic.Again no blue magic.
Not being able to control all the characters during a battle.Not being able to switch characters in and out of your party during battles.
More difficult to make gil in this game than even in FFXII.
Unable to reach the final level of the crystalarium until the post game.
Stuff like that.
It's better than FFXII but not by very much.It's not an epic FF and fans were expecting it to be hence their disappointment.

XIII is a far cry from being better than XII. I wouldn't even call it on par, but I still stand by my enjoyment of what I played. Hopefully by my birthday one of my relatives will feed my greed and buy it for me, along with a Ps3 and an Xbox360 (hey, it beats having to choose one over the other before I've tried them out firsthand) and make me cupcakes. And clean my house, too.

If it's the linear path in the game, well I think that's awesome!

...and this is were I stopped reading.

Lol. The linear path isn't what I would call 'awesome', but it's . . . I guess not the worst thing there is.

Most games are linear anyway, but at least some try to look open ended or at least offer some nice distractions along the way. FFXIII took it too far with the linearity and I think that's what bothered most people. At least put a damn treasure on the road or something! I know they're fugitives but surely they can spare a moment to pick a potion up from the ground.

At least put a damn treasure on the road or something! I know they're fugitives but surely they can spare a moment to pick a potion up from the ground.

Uh, there is treasure chests in FFXIII though Smarty - they're those floating silver orbs that make a whirring, winning noise when you're near them. Most were hidden off the 'main path' though and required either a little exploration or the strategy guide to find.

At least treasure orbs weren't random anymore like in FFXII. I hated opening one in FFXII expecting something good, only to get 1 gil (and that's even if the treasure container was even there; half the time they didn't spawn at all).

But yeah, FFXIII's main problem is it's linearity. Of course being fugitives it's obvious they can't just wander freely around the world, but there were other examples of similar plots in earlier FF games where the cast became fugitives from the law and were still able to explore the world map to an extent. FFXIII's linearity just came across as an example of the development team spending more time developing the graphics engine than working on gameplay and storyline.

I really don't think the game's main problem is its linearity. The story and characters are quite bad, which I think is way more of a detriment to the game's overall quality.

That, and I think the game takes itself a little too seriously. I personally like it, but all the other games gave you some laughs all the while contending with a moderately serious storyline. Sazh seems like the comic relief of the game, but it seems forced. I agree totally with Enkidoh that the game seems like just a huge display of this new White Engine than a real thorough game.

I still like it though. Don't ask why; I guess I'm just not hard to impress.

Uh, there is treasure chests in FFXIII though Smarty - they're those floating silver orbs that make a whirring, winning noise when you're near them. Most were hidden off the 'main path' though and required either a little exploration or the strategy guide to find.

Really? Well, I guess I just didn't encounter any. I didn't play it for very long.

It seems to me that A LOT of people had too many high expectations of the game

Totally, everyone should have gone into FF13 with extremely low expectations, you know with Square's reputation for making quality RPGs and the fact that it was like 8 years or whatever in the making. Yeah. Not expecting good things at all yo.

Totally, everyone should have gone into FF13 with extremely low expectations, you know with Square's reputation for making quality RPGs and the fact that it was like 8 years or whatever in the making. Yeah. Not expecting good things at all yo.

ROFLCOPTER!!!

Very true, though.

Really? Well, I guess I just didn't encounter any. I didn't play it for very long.

There's one moments after the first battle in the game.

Hmph, this game is incredibly awesome.
I have no idea how it COULDN'T have been linear! It was that way because of the story and scenario.

I doubt if you became a fugitive ON THE RUN and hated by the whole world, you would be stopping in towns and going to some chocobo expo or messing around. If you were allowed to, I think that would be another issue today. Doesn't make sense if you think about it. The setting of the game world isn't one that I would want to explore anyways. Coocoon/Pulse seem like places where it would suck live in.

Luckily some sidequests come later but it's this extraordinary story that limits the gameplay/freedom mainly. It's win-lose. Win for me because I haven't seen a game with a story like this in a long time and sometimes I like getting to the point. The story takes a while to develop so just playing mini-games and wondering in my mind what's actually going or what happened in the past on would kill me even more.... You just have to bear with it.

The game doesn't appeal to the average western gamer, simple as that. Western gamers want games that look and feel cool, and that make them feel cool, powerful and free. They want the main hero to be an outsider who can do what he damn pleases, and generally be the greatest and coolest person ever (and it helps if they themselves are that main hero).

FF13 goes for that in some measure, but stays faithful to JRPG tradition in others, creating a kind of Frankenstein's Monster of a game, that doesn't truly appeal to West or East. Another example of this is how the game is extremely linear until the later chapters where it suddenly becomes open world without warning.

I liked this game, but I don't begrudge people for disliking it, because it often makes itself very hard to love. the only thing I would really take issue with are the accusations that the game's plot is weak. I think it could have been told better, but the story itself is very good indeed.

And my stance on towns full of pointless NPCs and peaceful rural music is a matter of public record - they are always extremely boring and we're better off without them.

FF13 is a good game, but western gamers don't like JRPGs anymore. So to be truly sucessful, it would have had to either be near perfect or compromise so much in deference to western gamers, that it wasn't a JRPG at all.

My personal opinion is that they should stop trying to appease western gamers, because they are never going to do it. They should forget what analysts and industry forecasters tell them they should be trying to do and just trust their own instincts.

Because those instincts are what gave us the classic old JRPGs.

Granted it pissed me off the first time I finsihed it and was "Oh is that it" but on umerous play throughs I appreciated it. It reminded me of the games I use dto play on my C64 and Amiga as a child, game soyu could pick up an complete within a reasonable amount of time. FF13 is one of my fave FF next to X..I love 12 but it can be such a grind. FF 13 I think is very underated and I hate the whole "its so linear!!" whinging. It is a nice throwback and enjoyable. I don't have to mop up pointless sideuests to get the best weapons or 100% playthrough.

Hmph, this game is incredibly awesome.
I have no idea how it COULDN'T have been linear! It was that way because of the story and scenario.

I doubt if you became a fugitive ON THE RUN and hated by the whole world, you would be stopping in towns and going to some chocobo expo or messing around. If you were allowed to, I think that would be another issue today. Doesn't make sense if you think about it. The setting of the game world isn't one that I would want to explore anyways. Coocoon/Pulse seem like places where it would suck live in.

Luckily some sidequests come later but it's this extraordinary story that limits the gameplay/freedom mainly. It's win-lose. Win for me because I haven't seen a game with a story like this in a long time and sometimes I like getting to the point. The story takes a while to develop so just playing mini-games and wondering in my mind what's actually going or what happened in the past on would kill me even more.... You just have to bear with it.

I truly agree, it's soo good! I guess people expected more of a FF7 with better graphics though :/

I truly agree, it's soo good! I guess people expected more of a FF7 with better graphics though :/

You seem cool :) Nice to see a friendly new person for a change :D Welcome!

I personally like FFXIII. Granted I haven't beaten it yet, not because I dislike it, but because I've been playing Phoenix Wright games and SSF4 hardcore. I'm at Chapter 11 right now at Taijin's Tower. The thing I like about this game is that you are back to full health after battle. This has been something I've been asking for in a JRPG for years! I don't have to consistantly resource manage my magic points (well, this game has no magic points) and health points against randoms so I can be in tip top shape to face some random boss.



And my stance on towns full of pointless NPCs and peaceful rural music is a matter of public record - they are always extremely boring and we're better off without them. .
This is why I'm loving FFXIII so far as well. Never understood the appeal of talking to NPCs for useless info.

I tried multiple times to like/play FFXIII, and my disdain for it grew even more. Unlikable characters, stale story. The music never grabbed my attention like it used to in previous titles either. Graphic wise, yes it was pretty, but graphics don't make the game.

The game doesn't appeal to the average western gamer, simple as that. Western gamers want games that look and feel cool, and that make them feel cool, powerful and free. They want the main hero to be an outsider who can do what he damn pleases, and generally be the greatest and coolest person ever (and it helps if they themselves are that main hero).

FF13 goes for that in some measure, but stays faithful to JRPG tradition in others, creating a kind of Frankenstein's Monster of a game, that doesn't truly appeal to West or East. Another example of this is how the game is extremely linear until the later chapters where it suddenly becomes open world without warning.

I liked this game, but I don't begrudge people for disliking it, because it often makes itself very hard to love. the only thing I would really take issue with are the accusations that the game's plot is weak. I think it could have been told better, but the story itself is very good indeed.

And my stance on towns full of pointless NPCs and peaceful rural music is a matter of public record - they are always extremely boring and we're better off without them.

FF13 is a good game, but western gamers don't like JRPGs anymore. So to be truly sucessful, it would have had to either be near perfect or compromise so much in deference to western gamers, that it wasn't a JRPG at all.

My personal opinion is that they should stop trying to appease western gamers, because they are never going to do it. They should forget what analysts and industry forecasters tell them they should be trying to do and just trust their own instincts.

Because those instincts are what gave us the classic old JRPGs.

Wow, well said

I think the critics are actually starting to regret their 'Jap games bashing' that they've been doing recently. Because they've been slating them so much, that people have given up on them, even when the games are good.

For example, the critics went into rapturous fits of ectasy about Bayonetta and Vanquish, but nobody listened. Even with wall to wall perfect scores, Bayonetta was a minor hit at best, and Vanquish as far as I can tell, flopped miserably.

The critics know very well that a healthy and creative Japanese contribution to the industry is vital, and their excessive bashing of Jap games has not been helpful at all (RE5 and FF13 for example, could have been better certainly, but they were nowhere close to being as bad as many western critics were saying.)

I do agree with you about how some critics are changing their opinions... they do that all the time though. Personally, I think it just boils down to the individual in question: They like it, they like it. If they don't like it, they don't.

You can't please everybody nowadays... and videogame fans can be quite relentless, brutal and merciless when it comes to games.

If VGchartz is to be believed, Bayonetta has sold 1.62 million copies and Vanquish 0.45 copies (it's still relatively new, though). I firmly believe both of these games will generate a strong cult following and consistently keep selling copies over time. I'd easily consider Bayonetta to be well beyond a "minor hit" and Vanquish sold very well, for a game that had 0 hype behind it, in such a short period of time.

And these are underhyped games we're talking about (and awesome games btw, both of them). RE5 and FF13 were bashed a lot, but both sold several millions... And so do many other Japanese games. Street Fighter IV, Tekken 6, Lost Planet, Persona 4, Demon's Souls... Japanese games are still selling. People are never gonna give up on Japan. I'm certainly not going to anytime soon.

Give it a break, it was a good game! Better than most out there lol

Give it a break, it was a good game! Better than most out there lol

Good game, yes, I thought so. But better than most out there? Even from what I saw of it, no, not by a longshot.

Give it a break, it was a good game! Better than most out there lol

No it wasn't, and there ARE better games available.

Bayonetta peaked at about no5 over here in Britain, and then sank without trace (it literally was 'blink and you missed it'). And it was anything but underhyped - the critics could not have pushed that game more if they came round to your house and gave you a free copy, along with some tea and biscuits courtesy of Platinum Games.

They were building it up to truly ridiculous levels, trying to make it a big hit. Even Edge magazine, which is one of the harsher reviewers, gave it 10/10. And yet you can barely find anyone about on the internet with a good word to say about the game (its metacritic user score is poor as well). And I really wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Vanquish to become a big hit.

As for RE5, it sold excellently, but it's fairly obvious that it did that with no aid from the critics, and largely due to its name and the success of its direct predecessor. Much like FF13 in that regard.

I really liked RE5, but the reaction from fans and mainstream has been overwhelmingly negative. People just keep insisting that its rubbish compared to RE4, which isn't true at all IMO.

And again at least over here in Britain, Lost Planet 2, Persona 4 and Demon's Souls sank without trace. Not sure about Tekken 6, but I don't remember it being touted as some huge success story.

Sequels to big franchises sell well - that's no surprise, seeing as how its what the industry almost exclusively is these days. But the constant bashing that the Jap games have been getting, mean that people aren't willing to venture outside of the big names and give anything new a chance.

No it wasn't, and there ARE better games available.
Not this generation of RPG games on consoles there aren't. Not that the RPGs are bad this gen, just underwhelming. Final Fantasy XIII, and maybe Nier (for story and soundtrack) were the highlights of RPGs this gen for consoles. For handhelds...well you have quite a selection there.

Not this generation of RPG games on consoles there aren't. Not that the RPGs are bad this gen, just underwhelming. Final Fantasy XIII, and maybe Nier (for story and soundtrack) were the highlights of RPGs this gen for consoles. For handhelds...well you have quite a selection there.

Lost Odyssey, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age: Origins (Awakening) beg to differ Esura.

Hype=/=Marketing. Never forget that.

Even if a game scores 100% on Metacritic and Gamerankings and you can't find a single person on the face of the earth that has something bad about it to say about it, it's just not going to sell very well if it's not advertised. Most people shop for games the same way they shop for anything else. They just go to the store and buy what looks interesting, or what they know they're gonna like. They're not gonna bother looking for reviews on the internet. Believe me, I know.

I think Kevin Smith says it best

"..The Collective Experience..Yea its wierd its gonna be interesting to see, what a pop-culture reference looks like in 20 years. Because we are kinda isolating, isolating, isolating, and also entertainment is being made for smaller and smaller demographics....you get out of it what you put into it, and some people just go on the internet to spill bile and thats all they're ever gonna get out of it. I like to get on the internet and be productive, get really high and get creative, you know, its fun"

You know we have no great war, no great depression so we tend to get bored (lol paraphrase), and in doing so we become cynical critics not only of games but of everything. Nothing seems to come from the passion and heart of doing something anymore now its just "How much money can we get if we do this" or "What am i going to rip apart today" Thats what saddens me about the industry for the most part.

I never read bad reviews anymore, i just try it if it appeals to me

Lost Odyssey, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age: Origins (Awakening) beg to differ Esura.
Nope, Lost Odyssey and Origins (even Awakening) aren't better than FFXIII imo. I've only played Mass Effect for a few hours as a rental on my brother's 360 so I can't fully judge that. Same with Mass Effect 2. However I just bought Mass Effect 2 for PS3 for 30 bucks, so I'll play it and let you know if its better than FFXIII. I heard some fans of ME were questioning its legitimacy of it being a RPG in general though. From what I've played of ME2 though on 360....it didn't feel like an RPG at all.

Nope, Lost Odyssey and Origins (even Awakening) aren't better than FFXIII imo.

That's your own opinion. To me, Dragon Age: Origins and Awakening are superior to FFXIII. Hell, even Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic IS superior to FFXIII.


I've only played Mass Effect for a few hours as a rental on my brother's 360 so I can't fully judge that. Same with Mass Effect 2. However I just bought Mass Effect 2 for PS3 for 30 bucks, so I'll play it and let you know if its better than FFXIII. I heard some fans of ME were questioning its legitimacy of it being a RPG in general though. From what I've played of ME2 though on 360....it didn't feel like an RPG at all.

Mass Effect is a Action RPG. Has some elements of other RPG's, as well as Shooter elements. Play Mass Effect, then Mass Effect 2 as you can import your character from the first to the second (And then to the third when that is released November/December this year).

Mass Effect is a Action RPG. Has some elements of other RPG's, as well as Shooter elements. Play Mass Effect, then Mass Effect 2 as you can import your character from the first to the second (And then to the third when that is released November/December this year).

Getting Mass Effect 2 for PS3.

Getting Mass Effect 2 for PS3.

Then you don't get the full experience of the Mass Effect games. A crappy interactive comic, with only 6 choices to carry over into Mass Effect 2... while Xbox 360/PC users can play the full game of Mass Effect (along with a Hell of a lot more choices besides 6) and transfer their character over to Mass Effect 2.

My take on the situation, after being around FF games for almost half of my life I've found that with every FF release comes complaints. Right now it's cool to hate on XIII, when XV (let's face it XIV is a mess right now) comes out people will hate on it too and XIII will be praised on different levels, don't believe it? Same thing has happened with every FF release, except for maybe IV, believe it or not even VI had haters back in the day.

Maybe so LarryMHolder... but when people have legitimate reasons for hating a game, that says a lot.

My take on the situation, after being around FF games for almost half of my life I've found that with every FF release comes complaints. Right now it's cool to hate on XIII, when XV (let's face it XIV is a mess right now) comes out people will hate on it too and XIII will be praised on different levels, don't believe it? Same thing has happened with every FF release, except for maybe IV, believe it or not even VI had haters back in the day.

VI still does have haters :(

VI has haters? Since when? :S

I can't think of any examples on this site right off the bat, but the only real complaint I've ever seen is that some people think Kefka ruins it, or just that they don't like the game and give no reason. Haters are out there, but luckily few and far between :D

Well I think that Kefka is hideous for the game & ruins the potential of the game, same as Terra, but that's just me.

But it's not enough reason to hate it. :S


Haters gonna hate I guess....

I know man! Me, I love everything about it! To me, it is perfect :D But, for all the haters, I say they must all listen to Justin Bieber for two hours straight. HA!

I really don't know why XIII gets so much hate. These days it's popular to hate the most recent iteration of Final Fantasy. However, I personally felt XIII did not live up to the Square Enix standard. The game was very linear for a large portion of the game with uninspiring and lifeless areas. While the Paradigm Shift system was fun and hectic, the system really could have used further customization in the background similar to XII's Gambits (why can't I tell Hope to always cast Haste before Protect or En-???). The story also could have used more fleshing out. Villains in XIII were also weak and unmemorable with Jihl being killed before the group could even fight her! The heroes also didn't evolve and grow much throughout the story.

While I applaud Square for trying new battle systems in XII and XIII, I really hope XV is a return to the series' roots in HD. Sure, XII and XIII are more realistic in battle, but I enjoy turn based combat and believe that's one of Final Fantasy's defining qualities.

While the Paradigm Shift system was fun and hectic

Fun and hectic don't really go together.

Also I don't know who mentioned the point regarding talking to "useless NPCs", but I doubt they ever read a book. In order to paint a world with cities, demographics and cultures you need to have populated cities, each with characteristic personalities. Using NPCs can add a lot to the atmosphere. For example, Treno in FF9 had a slum sector and a "rich" sector, where there were thieves and gamblers and rich patrons all over the city. You don't need to talk to the NPCs to get a feel of a cosmopolitan city with pretty staggered social differences due to the gap between the rich and the poor. It gives the City of Night a lot of personality that areas in Final Fantasy 13 are missing. Hopefully, this made some sense to some people.

Fun and hectic CAN go together, what the crap are you babbling about?

Try any fun destruction-based racing game like carmageddon, or something where the focus is high pressure, low time limit...don't be absurd, the concepts CAN co-exist, and have in many cases. I've been enjoying the game so far...it's not 9, but that's my favourite game of all time...so yeah! XD;


Even if a game scores 100% on Metacritic and Gamerankings and you can't find a single person on the face of the earth that has something bad about it to say about it, it's just not going to sell very well if it's not advertised. Most people shop for games the same way they shop for anything else.

Truth!

For example, Ghost Trick is PRAISED to all heck by everyone who bought it...but it wasn't highly advertised and suffered low sales as a result.
Damn shame, it's absolutely amazing game...especially for the DS!

Fun and hectic CAN go together, what the crap are you babbling about?

The Paradigm shift battle system, where every switch was disjointed and took away from the combat experience imo. What are you talking about? Is it...


something where the focus is high pressure, low time limit...

Yeah, doesn't really sound like FF13's system. Which might have made it a better game, although I don't know by how much.

Funny enough, I don't get that from playing the game - Every situational paradigm change can make a difference, and if you're not paying attention to who is situated as what, you're going to probably screw up without realising that you should have zigged with one paradigm instead of zagging with another.

I just think the overall point of it was lost on you, perhaps, and that's where the issue lies.

I played this game. I was so stoked when I first bought it because it was the first Final Fantasy game I ever bought (or played for that matter). Though I heard it would be turn based, I picked it up anyway. I don't hate turn based combat really (I mean, I've never really played a turn based game), I just think its somewhat of a relic from an era where it was necessary because of hardware limitations, but I was ready to come into this game with an open mind and love it. But, quite frankly, I got bored with it. The linearity really hurt it here; I came into this game expecting a large vibrant world, towns, NPCs, dungeons, the works! In fact, a slogged through the long hallway that was the first two CDs just to get to the third CD, because I just knew that the "real" Final Fantasy XIII was around the corner. When I found out that none of the above things were in the game, I lost interest completely. Though the game somewhat opened up later, really, I was just running around doing the same thing I was before, and that was battling, and, to be frank, the battle system didn't redeem the experience.

With, the battle system it felt like Square was trying to go for a turn-based/action hybrid that just didn't quite work for the following reasons:
1. Controlling one character-the fact that you could only control one character pretty much takes the tactics out of it. Thought the paradigm system somewhat makes up for this, but not enough.
2. Auto Battle- really, with this option, the battles become mind numbingly tedious
3. Losing when your player character dies- really, do I need to go into detail here? I probably lost more because of this than anything else, and it makes no darn sense when you've got people in your party who can resurrect you and Phoenix Downs!!!!
4. Not having a backup team- Really, you have six people in your group and only three fight at one time. So what the heck are the other three doing while your fighting? Why can't we cycle teams if they are all not fighting together (which is wall banger in and of itself)?
5. Cycling through menus- going back to the hybridization of the combat system, I hated the menus. Really, since the game only uses the control stick and two buttons, could we not map some functions to the other buttons or even have a voice recognition system so you could bark out orders, like in Tom Clancy's Endwar, a fiercely underrated game. The menus made sense when the games were still real turn based games and you could still do everything on your turn. Now, you are consistently rushed to do everything to keep up with the computer which moves as if this is an action RPG. There were a few times when I lost because I was in such hurry to get something, I pressed the wrong thing ("I wanted Potion not Antidote!"), and that is infuriating.
6. Posing- The paradigm system helped keep it interesting for a while, but your characters' incessant need to "pose" when they shift, even as they're being attacked, is just stupid.
7. Suspension of Disbelief: Really, does this system make any sense? Turn based was alright, because it was uniform; everyone took turns. In this game, you are constantly being attacked, and yet can't move on your own, or attack consistently, thus destroying the game's believability.
8. Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory

The story, was ok, but was only really understandable if you read the datalogs. This didn't bother me as much as it bothered some people, as I like reading, its just that it is not how a story should be told. Though it was OK that the story started in the middle of all the action, it just didn't handle this too well. What was lacking was a "Tidus-like" character: a clueless POV character who would need to have things explained to him, thus, by virtue, explaining things to the audience. Because this game lacks that, everyone just throws around words without frame of reference, and even some cut scenes can only be perfectly understood if you read the datalogs, and that is unacceptable. The characters were a mixed bag of cool and annoying.

The Crysterium (not sure if thats how you spell it) was bloated and pointless and a simple level up system would suffice. Also the system by which you leveled up weapons and gear was also bloated and unnecessary, as you are constantly finding new stuff anyway and thus, don't really need all the leveling up. Also, money got harder to find later in the game, and the game finds itself hindered by several difficulty spikes.

In short, this game had a lot of potential, but squandered it. I came in expecting to be blown away, now I'm just angry that I wasted my money, and because of this game, I might just swear off Final Fantasy. Though the production values were good, that's about it. This game felt like all flash and no substance, and that is disappointing. I may buy Versus XIII (if I get a PS3), but that may be it. Though you can say that this game is hated by many because its "Japanese" or Final Fantasy, really that's just avoiding the fact that this game has real problems, and most people simply didn't like it for these problems.

I don't hate turn based combat really (I mean, I've never really played a turn based game), I just think its somewhat of a relic from an era where it was necessary because of hardware limitations. The linearity really hurt it here. I was just running around doing the same thing I was before, and that was battling, and, to be frank, the battle system didn't redeem the experience.
ff13 is so far from traditional "turn-based" combat and for me, totally did redeem the experience. if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you'd see it in a different light. there are a few problems with it though--my biggest of which is the ui, which is quite a mess.


With, the battle system it felt like Square was trying to go for a turn-based/action hybrid that just didn't quite work for the following reasons:
1. Controlling one character-the fact that you could only control one character pretty much takes the tactics out of it. Thought the paradigm system somewhat makes up for this, but not enough.
theres a lot of tactics still. but a lot of it has been taken out of battle and into pre-battle preparation. if you don't like spending time in menus, you won't like this game as much. theres also a hell of a lot of microing that must be done with fairly precise timing, i.e. using the 'tortoise' battle team of 3 sentinels to defend against a powerful attack.


2. Auto Battle- really, with this option, the battles become mind numbingly tedious
i've barely used this option, so i don't know the full functionality of it. if you don't like it, don't use it.


3. Losing when your player character dies- really, do I need to go into detail here? I probably lost more because of this than anything else, and it makes no darn sense when you've got people in your party who can resurrect you and Phoenix Downs!!!!
you either like this game mechanic or you don't. there's nothing innately wrong with this mechanic.


4. Not having a backup team- Really, you have six people in your group and only three fight at one time. So what the heck are the other three doing while your fighting? Why can't we cycle teams if they are all not fighting together (which is wall banger in and of itself)?
like i said, a lot of the tactics have been transfered into pre-battle preparation. if you don't like spending time in menus, you won't like this game as much. again, theres nothing innately wrong with this mechanic, you either like it or you don't. compare it to a tcg (trading card game): you can't bring a whole box of cards to a battle, you can only use one single deck for a battle. a lot of strategy goes into building that deck almost as much as playing the deck itself.


5. Cycling through menus- going back to the hybridization of the combat system, I hated the menus. Really, since the game only uses the control stick and two buttons, could we not map some functions to the other buttons or even have a voice recognition system so you could bark out orders, like in Tom Clancy's Endwar, a fiercely underrated game. The menus made sense when the games were still real turn based games and you could still do everything on your turn. Now, you are consistently rushed to do everything to keep up with the computer which moves as if this is an action RPG. There were a few times when I lost because I was in such hurry to get something, I pressed the wrong thing ("I wanted Potion not Antidote!"), and that is infuriating.
i'll give ya this one. the ui does indeed suck, as i stated earlier.


6. Posing- The paradigm system helped keep it interesting for a while, but your characters' incessant need to "pose" when they shift, even as they're being attacked, is just stupid.
again, this is another mechanic that's not necessarily bad, rather you just don't like it. do you think it would be balanced if you can insta-switch between paradigms? don't you think that would be a bit overpowered? this mechanic requires you to think more and use the paradigm shifting more tactically. you said you wanted tactics, didn't you? button mashing paradigm shifts wouldn't be as tactical as precisely timed paradigm shifts imo.


7. Suspension of Disbelief: Really, does this system make any sense? Turn based was alright, because it was uniform; everyone took turns. In this game, you are constantly being attacked, and yet can't move on your own, or attack consistently, thus destroying the game's believability.
i'll give ya this one too, but not for the fact of disbelief, rather i don't think it makes for a good game mechanic. i would've preferred perhaps a grid system in place, or like you said give the player some control. right now it is completely random element that can either help you or hurt you.


8. Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory
then how would you explain the storyline? while i don't agree that it should've been there from the start, i did feel the progress was dreadfully slow, so they should've introduced them much much sooner.


i've played most ff's (missed out on iv and skipped xii), but i'd have to say this is one of the better battle systems out there. i'd rate it lower than ffx/ffx-2, but better than vii, viii, and ix (vii comes really really close though).

one thing i do miss though is a mini-game. ffviii's battle system wasn't my cup of tea, but damn was that mini game all sorts of awesome.

i've barely used this option, so i don't know the full functionality of it. if you don't like it, don't use it.

Liking or not liking it doesn't change that after using Libra, you don't have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there's no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.

It is incredibly tedious. Even if you didn't like auto-battle, they way they designed the moves/fighting system was stupid.


if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you'd see it in a different light.

I did grow up with traditional fighting systems, and although the initial impact the fighting system had on me was impressive, it did not pan out in my opinion. I appreciate the move towards a new direction, but small things, like the Paradigm shift doing a camera pan over all three characters individually as they "shift" combined with the fact that you're shifting all the time keeps battle strangely disjointed at times. I think it's too flashy and not really necessary. Again, you can say that this is a personal issue but a lot of things in their combat system makes the actual fighting disjointed and in a way trivialized (flips aren't cool when you do it 5000 times and neither is knocking enemies into the sky 5000 times).


again, this is another mechanic that's not necessarily bad, rather you just don't like it. do you think it would be balanced if you can insta-switch between paradigms? don't you think that would be a bit overpowered? this mechanic requires you to think more and use the paradigm shifting more tactically. you said you wanted tactics, didn't you? button mashing paradigm shifts wouldn't be as tactical as precisely timed paradigm shifts imo.

I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn't overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you're responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.


Not having all team members for the first parts of the game- self explanatory

This was never an issue with the game. Final Fantasy 4 purposely threw your party into disarray all the time. I'm not using FF4 as an model for comparison but the lack of party members shouldn't affect game flow. The only reason it sucked (at least for me) is that the environments lacked real depth. The only area that felt really good was the very beginning when you feel rushed and chased and in an industrial area which was awesome. After that, poop.


Also even if you think it's one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting. It's been 6 years since FF12, and given the potential of FF13's battle system, small things like the posing during Paradigm shifts, the naturally limiting nature of having a Paradigm system, and the need to constantly shift take away from the flow of battle. By spinning the camera and having 4 attacks per "turn" instead of one doesn't speed up the battle, it just makes it more clusterfucky, if that's the right word. There's not enough substance in the combat system.

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

You have to shift about 7 to 8 times in order to set up a fight and get the enemy staggered. There is no skill or technique involved, just a switch between presets. Even then, in order to keep up Debuffs during an "attack phase" you would need to do a shift that distracts from the flow by literally cutting the camera across the screen, in order for you to switch to that. If you didn't encounter this or "get" this from playing the game, then you used the basic 4 and one or two additional ones to get you through most fights and didn't realize that the battle system is incredibly limited and disjointed by forcing to you shift roles midfight, preventing you from fighting while keeping up heals and debuffs/buffs. You don't NEED to do this but in order to effectively fight, you should be doing this. After 500 fights, you end up saying fuck this, and use 4 paradigms and auto battle. At the end of the game or when you get bored of using 4, you may use 6, but it's the same preset switching that doesn't allow you to freely shift during a fight depending on what YOU want to do and instead focuses on a preset combination of moves.

Liking or not liking it doesn't change that after using Libra, you don't have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there's no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.

It is incredibly tedious. Even if you didn't like auto-battle, they way they designed the moves/fighting system was stupid.



I did grow up with traditional fighting systems, and although the initial impact the fighting system had on me was impressive, it did not pan out in my opinion. I appreciate the move towards a new direction, but small things, like the Paradigm shift doing a camera pan over all three characters individually as they "shift" combined with the fact that you're shifting all the time keeps battle strangely disjointed at times. I think it's too flashy and not really necessary. Again, you can say that this is a personal issue but a lot of things in their combat system makes the actual fighting disjointed and in a way trivialized (flips aren't cool when you do it 5000 times and neither is knocking enemies into the sky 5000 times).



I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn't overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you're responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.



This was never an issue with the game. Final Fantasy 4 purposely threw your party into disarray all the time. I'm not using FF4 as an model for comparison but the lack of party members shouldn't affect game flow. The only reason it sucked (at least for me) is that the environments lacked real depth. The only area that felt really good was the very beginning when you feel rushed and chased and in an industrial area which was awesome. After that, poop.


Also even if you think it's one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting. It's been 6 years since FF12, and given the potential of FF13's battle system, small things like the posing during Paradigm shifts, the naturally limiting nature of having a Paradigm system, and the need to constantly shift take away from the flow of battle. By spinning the camera and having 4 attacks per "turn" instead of one doesn't speed up the battle, it just makes it more clusterfucky, if that's the right word. There's not enough substance in the combat system.

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

You have to shift about 7 to 8 times in order to set up a fight and get the enemy staggered. There is no skill or technique involved, just a switch between presets. Even then, in order to keep up Debuffs during an "attack phase" you would need to do a shift that distracts from the flow by literally cutting the camera across the screen, in order for you to switch to that. If you didn't encounter this or "get" this from playing the game, then you used the basic 4 and one or two additional ones to get you through most fights and didn't realize that the battle system is incredibly limited and disjointed by forcing to you shift roles midfight, preventing you from fighting while keeping up heals and debuffs/buffs. You don't NEED to do this but in order to effectively fight, you should be doing this. After 500 fights, you end up saying fuck this, and use 4 paradigms and auto battle. At the end of the game or when you get bored of using 4, you may use 6, but it's the same preset switching that doesn't allow you to freely shift during a fight depending on what YOU want to do and instead focuses on a preset combination of moves.

Couldn't of said it better myself.

To answer Snaek:

-Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I'm criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game's detriment, hampering the overall experience.

-The reason I didn't like not having all team members at the beginning is because you were really limited by having only two active party members at one time. Though I understand that it was necessary for the story, it still hurts combat. That being said, Dragoncurry hit the nail on the head.

you either like this game mechanic or you don't. there's nothing innately wrong with this mechanic.



-Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I'm criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game's detriment, hampering the overall experience.


That Mechanic only made sense on the SMT games, because you were controlling Pokemon shit & even though it's justified (barely).

IT'S STILL FUCKING ANNOYING.

Nothing else to add.

Continue...

Liking or not liking it doesn't change that after using Libra, you don't have to play the game. Mechanic-wise, there's no difference to being able to pick 4 different kinds of strikes on Lightning than one kind. It is only for show (aka Lightning doing a flip or Sahz shooting behind his head), but auto battle speeds up clicking 4 abilities.
are you kidding me? the battle system is way more complex than you make it out to be. using different skills builds the chain gauge faster than doing something like, lightning strike->lightning strike->lightning strike. on the topic of chain gauges and the character lightning, who is more physical than magical, i'm also assuming that you think the strike abilities are always better than the magic spells? this isn't always the case, magic spells fire off faster than the strike skills, essentially again leading to faster chain gauge building at the expense of less damage. this is an option that auto-battle does not allow. this game has so many subtle details in the mechanics, and if you keep using auto-battle, you won't get to really experience how great they are.


I talked a little bit about this above, but it isn't overpowered because it would still use up a turn, just without the pose. This mechanic has nothing to do with the pose that the person you're responding to is talking about and it IS annoying.
how are you losing a turn exactly? unless you're shifting with a full meter, which should only be done in-case of timed tactics like the "tortoise" paradigm shift. did you realize that theres a hidden cooldown timer than gives you a full free bar with a paradigm shift? because of this, sometimes it can be advantageous to shift even when the situation doesn't call for a different team, just to get the free turn.

edit: unless you mean the silliness of the animation pose itself? in which case, i agree it does look silly. but i think there does need to be some kind of "freezing of action" so you can't just spam paradigm shifts non-stop, whether or not this is done using a pose animation or not.




Losing when the player character dies, not having a backup team or playing with all team members, and posing while "shifting" maybe gameplay mechanics, but that doesn't mean they necessarily work well or make any logical sense. I'm criticizing them because they are game mechanics, and they are annoying mechanics that work to the game's detriment, hampering the overall experience.
this mechanic is in numerous (team) games, for example a classic fave of mine, (srpg) shining force 2. a more extremely obvious example is chess--do you complain that you lose the game after your king dies? it's a mechanic in place that requires you to protect your king, or your leader.

A more extremely obvious example is chess--do you complain that you lose the game after your king dies? it's a mechanic in place that requires you to protect your king, or your leader.

No just no... There's a big difference.
In Chess the formation starts with the King with plenty of protection & the number of units to dispose is much bigger than this game. That's just for starters.

What if you want to build your leader in the Tank or a Melee Warrior Class?
The game obviously is forbidding you to do it that way if the "PartyLeaderDies=Game Over" is an unavoidable mechanic. Hence it's a mechanic that doesn't work properly in that kind of game. Hence, It's annoying.
What you're constantly playing an Escort Mission? Everybody knows that kind of thing sucks if it's treated badly.

There are plenty of other ways to make the game difficult & fair to the player.

http://www.lowbird.com/data/images/2010/12/scrubs-beating.gif

http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs28/f/2008/057/9/5/Man_Not_Caring_by_TheBlueCup.gif

Both Mass Effect games also use the 'Team Leader dies/Game Over' mechanic, and you never hear anyone complain about that.

Despite the fact that you cannot physically control the other characters, I feel like you still have a lot more say in how your team mates play in FF13, than you do in Mass Effect 2. In FF13, you get to set the skills and the style they will adopt in a number of different configurations. You can see a tanglible difference in what each party member is contributing to a fight at any one time.

In ME2, the characters can be broken down into 'Do they have Sniper Rifles?' If they do, they are useful, because all the computer has to do is point and shoot. If its anything else, the character is a waste of time. (Because if they're just sitting in cover shooting, a Sniper Rifle is better, if they are going forward, they frequently catch themselves on scenery or blunder into enemy fire).

Biotic powers have to used with such finesse in that game (due to shields/armour and the fact that several of the powers are just rubbish anyway), that they are only truly useful when you are using them yourself, or taking time out to aim for your team mates. And even then, the times when that is better than just letting them ripple off their unlimited ammo sniper shots is practically zero.

You want to talk about lame gameplay decisions - try that one on. Your team mates have unlimited ammo, but you don't. Not very nice of them to hog all the ammo and not give you any!

The fact is, ME2 makes only token nods to your team mates. Its primarily based on how you control the main character, and the best thing your team can do is just stay out of your way and let you do all the work. Because their AI is simply not sophisticated enough is to make best use of their time in a DPS capacity for example.

If ME2 is the future of RPG gameplay, then we're all in trouble.

FF13's gameplay is fast, fun, but also rewards strategic thinking and sound execution. If you don't like it, then fine. But a lot of people do like it (as the recent poll on this forum showed). Even the western reviewers who largely dismissed the game, admitted the gameplay was the best in any JRPG for years.

Square are by far the industry leader in trying to bring JRPG gameplay forward. The Star Ocean games, the FF games from FFX-2 onwards, all have enjoyable combat which is very much not something you associate with JRPGs.

But what do people praise instead? Lost Odyssesy...

Random battles, 'you go, then I go' turn system... And this is a game that is often touted as one of the best JRPGs of this gen. I just don't understand some people.

To respond to Vrykolas:
I've never played any of those other games, so I was just responding to the question at hand. If your leader character dies in Mass Effect 2, so what? I've never played Mass Effect 2 anyway, so I don't know much about that game, but to just point out somethings:

1. From what I've seen, its more like an action-based RPG, like Kingdom Hearts, so your main character dying might work out better in that game. In a more tactical game like FFXIII, where anyone can be revived, its just a wallbanger.
2. What goes on in that game has no bearing on what's going on with FFXIII. We are talking about a specific title, and thus, we should stick to that title. Though other RPG's have problems (like Mass Effect) we should only stick to the subject at hand, and avoid comparisons.
3. A lot of people liked FFXIII (and its battle system), just as many didn't. I'm just trying to point out why a lot of people didn't. And to be honest, I thought a lot of professional reviewers went too easy on the game and overlooked or glossed over its faults (IGN giving it a 8.9 for example).

(IGN giving it a 8.9 for example).

Don't pay attention to Professional Reviewers, specially IGN, they're kinda hipocritical & contradictive.

Yeah, they gave it 8.9 & also it's the game in the 1st place of 2010 dissapointments.

1) Everyone can be revived in Mass Effect 2 (you use Medi-Gel, which everyone has, unless they've decided to heap it all on your character in place of the infinite ammo they are carrying - I know which of those I'd rather have). So no, it doesn't make any more sense in that game.

2) Mass Effect 2 was brought up earlier in the thread, in a direct 'It's better, because it does things like *this* way). I assumed it was fair game. I understand what you're saying and I agree, but I'm not going to let people drop in Mass Effect 2 praise without any challenge. There's already far too much of that going on around the internet. If they believe in the game, they should have no problem defending it.

3) You say 'just as many didn't', but you have no proof of that. One of the most common things you'll hear about this game is 'It gets much better from Ch10 onwards' - because that's when you finally get the full combat experience. Party/Team Leader selection is unlocked, the enemies becomes stronger and the areas more open to grind and just enjoy combat in.

A lot of people don't like JRPGs anymore, and will refuse to say a good word about them, because they want to feel they made the right choice, jumping ship to Bioware etc.

The poll here was very limited in numbers of responses, but it suggested to me that a) fans of JRPGs did like the combat, whatever else they felt about the game, but also b) the low number of responses showed a general apathy towards the game.

And that last one is (I would suggest) for reasons other than the combat. Because the fact is, unless you play through to Ch9-10, you haven't experienced the combat system properly. That you have to wait so long is a problem (the biggest problem in the game IMO), but its not the fault of the actual combat system itself.

And I'm no more a fan of the critics than you are (Top's example of IGN shows exactly how much you can really trust anything they say). They big things up on release, then forget about them - it's just the way it works.

Like I've said before, critics give the scores they think their viewers want to see, and will tolerate. If they feel the love for a certain game or genre is waning (as in this case), they feel more able to speak their mind. And they did make it plain that they had problems with this game, which in turn makes me more confident than their love for the combat was genuine, than if they had just rubber stamped 9s and 10s over it.

To answer the above:

1. Yes, I understand that Mass Effect was mentioned earlier in this discussion. What I said about not bringing any other games into the discussion wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but everyone in general. I'm seeing these other games being brought in to this, and I feel they only distract from the conversation and its main point. Hence, "Since we're are talking about X, lets discuss X, not X,Y, and Z."

2. My statement about "just as many people didn't like FFXIII" was a general statement, and wasn't specifically referring to this website, or any poll, or any particular number of people; I was simply saying that a lot of people liked it, a lot of people didn't.

3. Saying it gets better "from ch. 10 onwards" or 20 hours in, or any of those other excuses people commonly use when talking about this game really aren't points in its favor; in fact, it only strengthens the arguments against it. I did play waaaay past that point, and still felt unmesmerized by the combat. While part of this stems from the game literally wasting hours of play time to "get good", I also feel that the combat system and its problems still play apart in this, thus I, by the time the game opened up a bit, really didn't enjoy the combat anymore, and since that was the only thing you really do in this game, well, that was it for me.

4. Now, this needs to be addressed. While you can say people just have the hate-on for JRPGs or Final Fantasy, you must not use these subjective views (and the subjective views they inspire) to simply explain the game's unpopularity that way. Just because some people don't like JRPGs, does not mean that is the only (or even #1) reason it gets bashed. One must primarily look at the game itself.

You all have misunderstood what I said when I brought up Mass Effect 2. I was not saying it was better than FF13 in any way. It was in direct response to:


.ff13 is so far from traditional "turn-based" combat and for me, totally did redeem the experience. if you grew up with traditional turn-based combat and see the kind of innovations/changes the ff13 battle system brought, perhaps you'd see it in a different light. there

My only comment about Mass Effect 2 was,


Also even if you think it's [Final Fantasy 13] one of the better battle systems out there, you have to realize that there are games like Mass Effect, that are combining elements of turn based fighting (via menu choice during fights) and of third person shooters. Current games coming out are thinking outside the box and they need to step the ante higher and higher to remain "fresh" and exciting.

My POINT was that FF13's battle system was not innovative ENOUGH and not groundbreaking ENOUGH given that there was a 6 year gap between FF12 and FF13. The conclusion that I was trying to get at by BRIEFLY mentioning ME2 (which someone else later expanded on for no reason, I had never said a word about party leader dying being a bad thing) was that:


There's not enough substance in the combat system.

That means that there's more flashy jumping around than any satisfying real fighting. I didn't even know how much damage Lightning does half the time because her numbers are mixed with the casters in one giant clusterfuck.

until a game gives me multiple options as an end game boss, all games will be linear to me. until i can play a game 3times in a different fashion, and have only a few overlapping towns, a game will remain linear. all these so called Open RPG's, still leaving you going to the same 6towns/dungeons what have you, just to get to the same boss, the fact that you can do it in any order...doesnt really make it more appealing.

if every game was made the same way, we would all get bored. we would still be stuck with tiny sprites, but due to people trying new things, and pushing the envelope w/ graphics, and various game play ideas, we would not be where we are today in gaming. and as far as somethings not being innovative enough? well, how many times have people bitched about a games combat system being broken, just b/c the company tried to be far to innovative with it?

13 is one of my friends favorite games, not sure if it will be one of mine. i hope i enjoy it though.

i know this wasnt entirely addressed to the OP comment, but ehh, i felt it related to everything else.

I would prefer to keep other games out of this too, but people insist on comparing products. I have already laid out on the 'Do you like the Battle System' thread, the reasons why I like the combat in FF13, judging the game purely on its own content. And there seems little point in writing it all again, when people could just look a few threads down for it.

The point we were discussing was the battle system. I feel it is entirely fair to say that unless you have played to Ch. 10 and beyond, you cannot give an objective view on the combat, because that is when the battle system is truly unlocked. As I say, the fact you have to wait so long is a problem, but not one with the combat system itself.

I did not say the game was unpopular simply because JRPGs are out of favour, but I maintain it is a strong contributing factor. Perhaps that is a subjective opinion, but so is your opinion that Just as many people hated the combat as loved it, when you have no evidence of that, and are ignoring what critics and the only measure of that statement here suggests.

IMO, people have a lot of love for the FF franchise, but they don't like JRPGs. Because FF went overground and into the mainstream for FF7 and again for FF10. They bought the game hoping to recapture the feelings they had when the series was huge, and it didn't do it for them.

Which is disappointing and one of the primary reasons that despite the fact that I like the game, I included it in my 'Most Disappointing Games' list of last year. Because whilst I feel it is a game, and is being unfairly maligned on several points (the combat for example), it most certainly was no classic, and not nearly great enough to recapture its fanbase.

But again, that is IMO a seperate issue from the combat, which is what we were discussing. I do not believe in any way, shape or form, that the combat system was the reason people didn't take to the game. In fact, I think it was hugely beneficial, as it mollified the critics' otherwise dismissive tones, and kept them interested.


Dragoncurry:
Sorry, if I misread your comments (that'll teach me not to skim read!) Your comments are indeed more thoughtfully presented than I was giving them credit for - not to mention that I mixed in other people's comments with your arguments. Hey. it was late, I was tired...

The fact remains though, I am very worried about ME2's recent mainstream popularity. I continue to view it as an appallingly dumbed down version of ME1's system, and it has sacrificed far too many RPG features in an attempt to capture cross genre appeal. Making RPGs into 3D shooters isn't progessive - its assimilation!

But anyway, I was careless when I read your comments. Mea Culpa.

I personally enjoy this game. I've yet to beat it but do plan on it. While it's in no way the best Final Fantasy it's still interesting. It's mainly the story and characters that draw me in. The battle system can be interesting, but it's kind of like watching a continuous cut scene.

I liked FF XIII quite a bit. Also it's the only FF game I have ever actually played from beginning to end.

===FF XIII / VII SPOILERS AHEAD!!===

I have played (and finished):

- Final Fantasy - made a perfect save*
- Final Fantasy II - also made a perfect save*
- Final Fantasy III - perfect save* too
- Final Fantasy IV - only missed the damn pink puff tails...
- Final Fantasy V - perfect save*
- Final Fantasy VI - perfect save* still in progress
- Final Fantasy VII - perfect save*
- Final Fantasy VIII - perfect save*
- Final Fantasy IX - perfect save*
- Final Fantasy X - perfect save* (YES, even the 200 bolts in thunder plain...)
- Final Fantasy XII
- Final Fantasy XIII

So I think I can say something about Final Fantasy XIII, I already finished it and I liked it, I can't say it's the best Final Fantasy but it's also not the worst. The story wasn't so bad as some people say it was, it did have flaws and plot holes, and a lot of it wasn't explained but the general feel was good.

Since I've been a lot tired lately I actually enjoyed the linearity so I didn't have to bother too much about exploring large multi-branched areas. The lack of diverse side-quests is a problem, the only thing you have is "search for almost hidden treasure" and "hunt special texture change enemies".

The music was great! It doesn't feel like the old FF, but then again only Nobuo Uematsu could do that... And still, it was great music, I read an interview with the compositor Masashi Hamauzu and he said he had always wanted to make music for a whole FF and hoped he was up for the task, I think he was!

The Crystarium reminded me of FF X grid, it rewards players for winning more fights (so you'll have more points to get more abilities), they only removed the Str/Mag/etc spheres from the equation. It could have been more "original", but all the other RPGs are also stagnant in this area (most of them anyway).

After a few hours of gameplay the Paradigm shift starts to have a strategic importance, you can actually die in some boss fights if you're not using the right ones. It adds more strategy to the battles, but it only does so because we are limited to using one character only, and also because some Paradigms behave differently from others (2 COM will never attack the same enemy if there is more then one, RAV will attack the same target always).

The battles were "different", no turns, no MP, only ATB cost, I only used autobattle for healing and deeper into the game I had to do the healing myself due to the crappy A.I., yes it's not perfect, and sometimes I raged about how unfair it was (after loosing thanks to the gameplay - NOOO!! What are you doing Vanille! You're supposed to heal ME! If I die it's GAME OVER, you don't heal Fang, you HEAL ME DAMNIT!!), but I remember doing the same thing in older FFs fighting other unfair (true, it was the boss that was unfair, not the gameplay) bosses...

But I still had fun doing battles, and I never got tired of the battle theme (Blinded By Light) and that's a feat. Mad about the limitations, but having fun.

We also have to analyse this further, some of the master minds behind FF are gone from Square, I'm sure Hironobu Sakaguchi would have been important in guiding the project to higher grounds, I know I missed him on FF XII and also Yasumi Matsuno too. So for all it's worth and considering all this... it could have been a lot worse.

I enjoyed the character design, and their motivations, they feel more like real people (real people that can jump real real high...), even their skin looks real (you can see different shades of skin colour! But that's graphics, which I don't think I'll ever hear someone say: It could look better... thoses crystals look a bit fake...), but I won't lie, I miss the old character designs, they were more "excentric" in a way.

And I also enjoyed the monster design, I can't say that for FF XII (seriously? That guy with the sword is supposed to be a Behemoth? Yeah, I know we also have those in this FF, but at least they look like a Behemoth before they get up! ...and don't get me started on the coeurls and malboros).

I did miss a more specific villain, Dysley only appeared, like, 3 times (I know I'm exaggerating), there wasn't enough time to develop them, characters like Jihl Nabaat or Yaag Rosch or even members of Team Nora seemed too secondary. In the end most of these characters felt unfinished (like AVALANCHE members dying too soon for you to feel anything for them in FF VII).

Final Fantasy XIII is a good game, It's not a perfect one or a bad game, really, It can't be a bad game when you already have so many bad games to compare it with! And it will never be the "best game there is" 'cause that game only exists in our mind, and it's everything we ever wanted ;)

* for me a perfect save means collecting all treasure and having at least 1 of each item (unless the odds are 1%, I ignore it then since I have a life), all summons, defeated all secret bosses, all ultimate weapons, all cards (FF8/FF9), all quests done, probably missing something here but you get the picture. And no, I don't get my characters to the maximum level, that kills all the challenge, I hate grinding.

Well, I'm going to dodge all the minor issues and delve into the major portions that I either liked or disliked.

When I started the game, it was all good, until I reached the 2 hour mark, when I realized the tutorials got all jumbled up or weren't properly brought up when you first run into something. For instance, in the very first battle in a large number of FF games, you typically get a small tutorial or moment to familiarize yourself with the game play mechanics (usually a tutorial). Now I've played nearly all the FF games out there, but I still like the tutorials in case they add something new in there some where. However when I ran into the first several battles I still had yet to run into a proper tutorial. Next thing I noticed was the auto-battle. Literally, for the first 2 to 5 hours of the game, I played, was nothing but hitting the "x" button with no usage of the directional pad, except outside of battle. As I got further into the game, sure I was finally forced to do something more than physical attacks on a couple occassions, but mostly it was still auto-battle. Unfortunately, I think the AI was too good in some areas when deciding what spells or abilities to use. I didn't have to plan anything out. I will devle into the pacing of the battles in a moment.

The second part of the gameplay I have some issues with is the paradigm system. When I finally reached the point when I can decide who I want in my party (or when party members kept being switched out on me), I found I have to keep re-setuping up my paradigms to the way I wanted them. The game didn't save my preferences at all when concerning my paradigms. I spent a decent amount of time setting everything back up again when I shouldn't have to do that everytime someone leaves or enters the party. Beyond this problem, in-battle switching between paradigms was horrible. As was mentioned in previous posts, the extra posing was unncessary and time consuming. They were looking for fast paced battles, yet everytime you switched paradigms (which for me was quite often in late game battles), it became rather annoying. I also found that if I'm switching paradigms, I can still get hit by the enemy in mid-pose. What the hell is up with that? Getting hit in mid-pose is ridiculous. The time spent on posing, could've been used curing an ally or using one of the Sentinals abilities for protection (like Taunt or something). (As a side note, I didn't even use FF13's version of the gambit system at all, everything was at default from start to finish and the game was still too easy, with the occasionally high spike in difficulty for no apparent reason).

Next part, the "Espers". What the hell? Did we just enter Transformers or something? Going past that small issue, I had no real use for the Espers at all. This has been a constant problem with me and the entire FF series: the Summons. I hear alot of people say "Oh the summons are awesome and strong and I use them because they look cool!", yet not once have I heard someone legitly say they are a necessary part of their strategy in any late game battle (except for the hard optional bosses in FF7, FF8, FF9, and maybe FFX: i.e. Omega Weapon, Emerald Weapon, Ozma, etc). I never once had to use an Esper in this game because I needed to in order to win (except when its required by the game). What was the point of them if they're not a necessity for many of the strategies. This also leads me into how the Espers are obtained. Sure, it was believable the first couple times you obtain an Esper, how the Esper comes out when one of the characters is feeling self doubt and depressed over something, but when its a cookie-cutter situation for ALL of the characters, that just becomes ridiculous. Whatever happened to obtaining a summon because you wanted to protect someone, or how about obtaining an Esper because you found it in an old keepsake from, say your father (this could've worked for Hope easily). Re-using the same scenes just with different characters was terrible.

This leads me into the story. Plot-holes and unexplained events aside, I did actually enjoy the story to a degree. I felt the story lacked when it came to a villian. Each FF game always had a flapship villian with several smaller villians in supportive roles to the larger. Using the most popular FF games as examples: Sephiroth, Jenova, and Shin-Ra in FF7; Ultimecia, Edea, and Seifer in FF8; Fate, Kuja, and Queen Brahne in FF9; and Sin, Seymour, and the Maesters in FFX. Unfortunately, the only standout-ish villian that I saw that made a very small impact on the story was the final boss, which we battle 3 different times. I don't even register anyone else as villians in the entire FF13 game. The story itself, while the base of it was strong, the characters were weak. Sazh is the only character I actually enjoyed and had fun controlling because he was more down-to-earth.

Overall, I have alot of problems with the game, some personal, alot not, however these are just the main points of the game that I feel led to the disappointment. The game has so much potentially, but the writing and bad choices in gameplay design just led the game to a more average rating (if not lower in some books). I liked the music and the graphics are awesome, but if there's not strong gameplay or story to complete the circle, the experience is going to be that much weaker.

I take great exception to Seymour, Sin and the Maesters being held up as examples of great villains! But I won't argue that for the most part, FF13 lacks strong enemies (but then so do many games these days).

Personally, I like Barthandelus as a villain too, but he only really comes into his own in the final 3 chapters. He's extremely good in the cutscenes surrounding the final battle, particularly when he merges with Orphan. The other villains didn't get much screen time, and I think killing off Ji'hil Na'baat so quickly and easily robbed Sazh of his main storyline.

It seemed like a bit of a MGS2 'bait and switch' (given that Nabaat featured in the trailers and had generated a lot of 'love to hate her' interest prior to release.


And IMO, the game has no unexplained events or plot holes. The story is extremely solid, easily one of the better FF stories IMO. And I don't accept that the characters are poor in this game. I don't think they are among the best of the best in the FF series, but I like them more than FFX's party for example (Auron excepted).

I also can't see what plot holes there are. It all seems to make sense, although the storytelling sometimes makes it a little difficult to follow (and the game is infamous for keeping chunks of important information exclusively in the Datalog).


I think the game has confounded the critics, to a large degree. They seem to be running this way and that on it. Some praised it on release, then trashed it later when they saw what public reaction was (IGN), some trashed it on release, then softened as the year went on (Edge gave it 5/10, but later admitted the game was probably the game of 2010 that would most divide opinion, as there were good aspects to it).

And the fact is, the game has been a huge smash hit in Japan. Their critics and public adored it, and their demand for a sequel is the whole reason FF13-2 is being made.

But it will obviously take a much better JRPG to interest western audiences en mass again. The only way I can see that JRPGs (and FF) can challenge WRPGs supremacy is to do something off the charts huge. Super complex, hugely ambitious in size and scope.

I think SE could do a lot worse than consult with Obsidian. It seems a perfect match - SE need help developing characters and worlds that appeal to western audiences, Obsidian need bigger budgets and quality control staff to iron out bugs and glitches.

Obisidian are IMO the best RPG writers around, SE make some of the most flawlessly presented and financed games. So if Obsidian and SE's collaboration on Dungeon Siege 3 goes well... fingers crossed.

A FF made by both of them, could be the west/east RPG crossover of the century.

I wasn't going to post in this thread, as my previous post/s I think explained my own feelings towards this game. However, after reading Vrykolas last post, there were a few points I'll comment on.


And IMO, the game has no unexplained events or plot holes. The story is extremely solid, easily one of the better FF stories IMO. And I don't accept that the characters are poor in this game. I don't think they are among the best of the best in the FF series, but I like them more than FFX's party for example (Auron excepted).

That's your opinion and you are entitled to that. IMO none of the cast in FFXIII had any appeal to me whatsoever, they just seemed bland and generic to me even moreso than FFX, X-2, XII's cast of characters. I couldn't form any sort of attachment to them or feel their need to do what they have to.


I think the game has confounded the critics, to a large degree. They seem to be running this way and that on it. Some praised it on release, then trashed it later when they saw what public reaction was (IGN), some trashed it on release, then softened as the year went on (Edge gave it 5/10, but later admitted the game was probably the game of 2010 that would most divide opinion, as there were good aspects to it).

This proves my point about these so called 'unbiased' critics/reviewers. None of them seem to really know what game they are reviewing and give it whatever score, similar to other reviewers who put the work in to reviewing the game, and ad lib their review. In all honesty, there's only one way to fully find out if you'll like the game or not: Try it yourself. Go and rent it before buying, play it, then formulate your own opinion of it. However, too many of the mindless masses are too stupid (or don't have the brains etc) to do this and just swallow any old tripe they read.


And the fact is, the game has been a huge smash hit in Japan. Their critics and public adored it, and their demand for a sequel is the whole reason FF13-2 is being made.

Just because it was a huge hit in Japan, doesn't mean anything. Quote sales numbers etc, whatever. It all comes down to the individual playing the game, as to whether they like it/love it/hate it/whatever.


Obisidian are IMO the best RPG writers around, SE make some of the most flawlessly presented and financed games. So if Obsidian and SE's collaboration on Dungeon Siege 3 goes well... fingers crossed.

A FF made by both of them, could be the west/east RPG crossover of the century.

Considering Obsidian's track record, and I have to disagree. I can name two examples of games Obsidian had their hands on, which on the individual level were quite good (and I did enjoy them), to the masses they weren't as huge in success as was hoped. Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords. Personally I love this game and still play it at least once a year, however the bugs, cut plot elements etc, made this game not as enjoyable as the previous. Alpha Protocol. This game had potential to be a great game... on paper. But how it was executed in development/production (game system etc) it was lacking. Also, being compared by many as a 'poor mans Metal Gear Solid', hurt it as well.

I doubt if SE and Obsidian joined forces to make a FF, that it'd be the 'west/east RPG crossover of the century' as there are many other developers which are making JRPG's/WRPG's, which IMO that is, are far superior to what the FF franchise has become now. Personally, I find the though of another '-2' FF game to be just a attempt to curry favor with those of the masses who think SE do no wrong. FFXIV is proof that SE is failing in some regards as to what the fans themselves want.

Obsidian only make buggy games because they don't have cash. One of their few strong points are the writers who don't need that much funding. SE has plenty of cash to go around, that's why a collaboration would be awesome. Still, Dungeon Siege 3 isn't getting me excited at all. Never been able to get into the series that much, personally. However, there is another East/West RPG collaboration coming up...


Hell yes, I'm excited for that.

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords.

I also enjoyed this game myself. I replay both KotOR 1 & 2 often.


I take great exception to Seymour, Sin and the Maesters being held up as examples of great villains! But I won't argue that for the most part, FF13 lacks strong enemies (but then so do many games these days).

I never meant to say Seymour, Sin and the Maesters were good villians. My point was they were there and made a significant impact on the story that was given to us. To me in FF13, I didn't know who the hell was a villian until I saw Bathandelus (or whatever the hell his name was) twice, then thrice. He was the only villian I can actually recall that even tried to make an impact on the story. Lack of a strong main villian and several supportive villians spell doom for a story, no matter how well it was written. Can't have a story without some sort of anatgonist.

But that's kind of the point - Lightning needs someone to fight against by her own admission, and makes up her own enemy in Chapter 4 (she blames the Sanctum for what happened) just to have a reason to keep moving. She comes to her senses in Parumpolum, leaving her and Hope wondering who they should be fighting, before finally agreeing with everyone else that Dysley is the one to blame and not the Sanctum as a whole.

A very similar thing happens in FF12. Both Ashe and Vayne both want to fight to achieve victory, but its never practical or allowable because of political constraints and realities. Everyone keeps compromising, enemies frequently turn out to be quite reasonable and willing to make deals etc, when they want nothing less than to brand them as enemies and defeat them.

These later FF games have shown that real life is never so simple as 'The Goodies versus the Baddies'. Arcadia isn't just an evil empire in FF12, the Sanctum of FF13 is not an inherently evil institution etc.

You're not wrong that genre stories have traditonally been motivated by strong antagonists, but that kind of storytelling has fallen out of favour these days.

These days, when considering the classic of classics, Star Wars, you're liable to hear people commenting 'But what about all the ordinary people working on the Death Star? The ones who didn't man the big world destroying laser? Why did they have to be murdered by the 'heroic' rebels?


And Smarty has it exactly - if Obsidian had more cash on tap, their games wouldn't be as buggy, simple as that. People seriously, seriously need to stop blaming Obsidian for KOTOR 2's rushed ending. It was in no way their fault - Lucasarts demanded the game be brought out before it was finished. That has absolutely nothing to do with Obsidian, yet they always cop the blame for it.

Their subsequent games have been riddlied with glitches, but again, its simply a matter of their ambition and the scope of games they make, outstripping their resources in terms of staff and equipment. With SE bankrolling them, that wouldn't be an issue anymore.

And again, I point to games like KOTOR 2 and Fallout: New Vegas to show the quality of their writers. Because there are a hell of a lot of people who *love* those games (me included) and for games with as many bugs and gliches to have so many admirers, that just shows how great the writing, world building, characters and atmosphere is in Obsidian's games.

Finally, someone who gets it. lol

The one thing that isn't being understood here is the fact these are Final Fantasy. Keyword is fantasy. Sure political undercurrents and moral dilemmas are great to get wrapped up in, but we keep forgetting that the worlds created in these games are just fantasy and shouldn't be taken as seriously as people tend to. To be honest, if the good vs evil (black vs white) type story was really falling out, game companies like Atlus wouldn't be doing well in sales when their stories are all about good versus evil. There's nothing like a good fantasy where you're in charge of toppling a major empire.

That, in itself, is probably half the problem people have with the story. But, then again, it could be said that Shin-Ra, Rufus, or even the Maesters of FFX weren't inherently evil. Political undertones and such have always played a role in the Final Fantasy series. However there has always been a fine balance or amount of it that appears in the game. There was too much of it in FF13, that it lost it's identity half way through the game. It kept switching masks too many times that it was hard to even maintain one set villian.

If you have too many moral dilemmas and greyed villians that aren't good nor evil, then in the end, the final boss you face at the end game (in my opinion) is totally pointless. There is no reason for me to fight a villian if I agree with his views, which makes the final boss fight a major contridiction.

I know that sounds a bit confusing so I hope you guys understand what I meant :)

I just don't see how you can apply that thinking to FFX. One of my major problems with that game has always been the extremely tame (and largely absent) villains. Most of that game is just shuffling along a straight path (which was villfied in FF13, but is apparently great in FFX, despite it being exactly the same), with very little opposition at all to break up the tedium.

And I also don't accept the argument that Shinra and Sephiroth were not evil. Shinra are about as black as they come, commiting all kinds of atrocities purely to make profit. Sephiroth may have a sob story past, but the fact is he was trying to summon a meteor to wipe out all life on the planet. That's pretty evil in anyone's book, surely?

You also reduce Atlus' storytelling in an extremely unfair way. It is hardly a case of good versus evil, seeing as how your own party members are frequently pretty evil themselves! Nocturne has no canon path to it, and you're free to side with factions that espouse brutal warfare, eternal tranquility, isolation or even utter annihiliation of all existence!

The final boss is not evil at all, it is merely a force of creation. You fight it for the right to mold the new reality in the image you desire. Its not about Good versus Evil unless you want it to be (i.e you can make choices that identify your character as a good person and oppose the more obviously evil factions). But that's just one example - you can be Good, evil or Neutral.

Altus succeed because they have an interesting style, and their games are dark and utterly crazy, but in good ways. They also appeal more obviously to western audiences, because their games tend to be more actiony than standard JRPGs.


There is still a place for Good versus Evil, but you have to do it near perfectly these days to avoid people dismissing it out of hand as tired, seen it all before, childish etc (Mass Effect 1 is probably the best Good versus Evil story of recent times, but even that is just Babyon 5 'An ancient Evil returns' again). Pretty much every RPG made in the last 10 years west and east has been treated this way by critics and often the public too.

And yet when companies stray from this, people still aren't satisfied. FF12, FF13, Dragon Age 2 etc were all pillioried by the masses for not having clear cut baddies and epic action packed stories.

A compromise must be struck. You do need baddies, you do need opposition, but you also can't just have people who are just being evil because they want ultimate power or stuff like that, anymore. It just seems like an incredibly old hat and childishly simplistic way to portray a world and its characters.

I mean, its the same with movies, right? It may have been acceptable in the 80's for a blockbuster movie to be 'A really big guy in a vest, shoots armies of guys to death, whilst standing in front of an exploding helicopter - The Movie!'

But all but the most undemanding viewers need something a little more involved these days! Doesn't mean we don't want exploding helicopters and all that, just that its no longer enough for the film to be just about that.

Or maybe, you're just viewing these games with a bit of an open mind due to age (meaning that when you were a child, everything was black and white versus being older allows you to want to be a bit more greyed and objective to stories and characters).

I don't ever recall saying that Shin-Ra wasn't evil, nor do I recall ever saying Sephiroth wasn't either. That brings me back to the original point that FF7 had clear-cut villians.

I ask you this: When you face the final boss, how grandiose do you believe it to be? Even better, when you fight the boss, do you expect to be fighting someone of evil intent? Why fight the boss at all if the boss isn't evil? That's the point I'm getting at. To have a final boss at all, the boss needs to be evil in order to justify the fight. Why would you fight someone who is a good guy? Just makes no sense. To fight a boss, you need a reason, a want, and an attachment to do so. This is what made bosses great. However, the reason, the want, and/or the attachment cannot be forced or else it'll turn out like what FF13 has. It felt like the writer(s) realized they had no real antagonist until halfway through the story because of the constant switching between characters and no clear cut story, so they slapped Barthandules into the role.

I think what's going on here is we're talking about two different things that, while it may seem like they're the same things, they aren't. You're talking about moral dilemmas and the like. I'm just talking about clear antagonists that make a significant impact on the story (I'm not really talking about good vs evil, I was just using it as an example). I agree there needs to be all the undertones and sub-plots that make stories engaging, but at the same time the game has to stick within the realm that it is claiming to be in.

The way I see it, I don't care about the story line as much as I care about the actual gameplay. That's not because I'm a kid, far from it actually. It's because you can have flashy graphics, an excellent storyline, etc. but that doesn't mean anything if the gameplay sucks badly, then you might as well be reading a book.

Well, you actually did say 'It could be argued that Shin-Ra, Rufus etc aren't inherently evil' in the post above mine. If you mis-spoke yourself then that's fine, but that's why I said what I did.

Moving on, I'd argue that all a game really needs is a hook that makes you keep playing. If that's interesting enemies, then so be it. But as ddrMaxman points out, it could simply be the gameplay that hooks you in, or maybe the world itself. There are plenty of great RPGs out there that have extremely poor villains. Can you even remember the villain from Oblivion, wasn't the Archdemon of DAO just a pretty ordinary looking dragon etc?

And like I said, SMT Nocturne doesn't have an antagonist at the end. Kagutsuchi has no animosity towards you (or anyone), nor you towards it. But it is a grand looking enemy and a momentous showdown, because you're fighting for the future of existence. So a boss doesn't have to be evil to justify the fight. The Arishok is IMO the best antagonist in DA2, and he isn't evil at all. He's simply a character with a clear and believable motivation, whose obligations bring him into conflict with Hawke.

I'd say that FF13 certainly has an evil final boss, but I wouldn't say he was the primary reason I kept playing that game. I became invested in the characters and the gameplay, and was interested in seeing how the story unfolded. I was pleasantly surprised at the end however, to find that I did really want to kill Barthendelus though. It did matter to me in a way that killing Kuja and Jecht etc didn't.

Does he have the show stopping pulling power of a Sephiroth? Well no, but let's not forget that FF7 is a game that would be in the top 3 RPGs of a great many gamers around the world, even today. Just because a game isn't as good as one that is considered amongst the very best ever made, is no crime.

I'm not arguing that games don't need antagonists or opposing forces. As I mentioned, I found FFX to be suffocatingly boring due to a lack of either. But games that are more heavily reliant on story need to focus on more than just Good versus Evil. Because we really seen it all before, and life isn't that simple. So as games start to look more real, they need stories that feel more real.

I forget why I said "Shin-Ra, Rufus aren't inherently evil". Maybe I did mis-spoke, I don't know anymore :)

I agree Vrykolas. It comes down to personal want in a game. To me, previous FFs set standards for the next one in the series. Each numbered FF game needs to be better than the predecessor. Arguably, nothing has been able to top FF7 in overall scope of enjoyability. Since the dawn of the Playstation era (discounting the FFs before FF7), FF9 is the only one to get close enough to FF7. However, this is all based on personal opinion.

In the end, I found no real enjoyment (outside of Sazh) in FF13. It felt like a chore to make it through the game and I have no desire to go back and do all the quests after the game is over.

It was a half-assed story line and most of the chracters in the game were more annoying than anything else. I couldn't stand Fang or Saz. Also I don't like how the game forced you to play every single character. Also Lightning randomly breaking off from the group all the time and then having to solo a mob with just here = gay

What yo talkin' about, boy?

The only time you ever have a single character is in a couple of Eidolon fights (which are heavily scripted and not really proper fights) and a couple of fights where you are supposed to use Eidolons just to show them off (Snow in Palum-Polum and Lightning on the Grand Prix circuit etc).

And even if you did have just one character, Lightning is probably the best choice you could have anyway. She's the fastest attacking Commando, and can easily take down waves of people all by herself.

The only time you ever have a single character is in a couple of Eidolon fights (which are heavily scripted and not really proper fights) and a couple of fights where you are supposed to use Eidolons just to show them off (Snow in Palum-Polum and Lightning on the Grand Prix circuit etc).

I think that what Derimu meant was that the game makes you use all the characters at some point in the story and you have no choice but to use them, and not single character fights.

Well, I don't see what the problem is with that, at all.

This is not a WRPG, its a JRPG. And in JRPGs, a specific story is being told in a specific way. That means all the characters contribute, not just the ones you like the most. JRPGs need more of this, not less IMO.

I prefer a good scripted game rather than a random event game any day.

Don't think FF XIII's story was the best, but I did liked it.

And for the first half of the game I didn't have to spend time deciding which character to use.

People hate it because it's different, it's that simple. They hate FF7 and it's the end of the old, hard FFs and they hate FF13 because it's something different and new, just like FF7. The main difference is FF13 wasn't as revoluntionary as FF7 nor was it as good considering how good FF7 was in its generation.

i hate it because it F'D up my PS3, a new slim model, and after a week, this game destroyed it.

i hate it because it F'D up my PS3, a new slim model, and after a week, this game destroyed it.

Sony console hardware sucks, really. I'm on my third PS2, after 2/3 years it stops reading games.

Except for the PSX, it was their first, so they had to do reliable hardware to build up a fan base.

I love the PSX and PS2 games, but I hate the console (after my experience with PS2 I obviously didn't buy a PS3).

I hate this game for many reasons, which I posted in another thread, but I'll explain myself here too.

-Too linear in the first half or so of the game. Then, you get to Gran Pulse and it's more open, but possibly TOO open.
-The characters were boring when you compare them to previous characters of the series.
-Story was lacking. See "characters" above.
-Nothing really felt Final Fantasy-ish about the game.
-The battle system was a mess. I know they wanted to go fast-paced, as opposed to the slower battle systems of previous games, but this was too fast-paced, in my opinion.
-It just seems like they focused too much on making the game look pretty and didn't give enough focus on other parts.

XII was better in every way, with the exception of graphics maybe, but XII's graphics were still really good.

I suppose it was to be expected. FFXIII was doomed to be disliked. It is very different from other titles (bar the FFVII compilation) and has a completely different battle system. Personally I think people's expectations are far too high at this stage as far as storylines are concerned. What do you expect? A world wide best seller novel sort of story? For heaven's sake, look at the caliber of the movies that are being released now-a-days. I'ld much rather play FFXIII then waste my time on watching that crap.
I think they did a good job with FFXIII- it just seems to me that many people expect the moon and aren't content with the earth beneath their feet.
As far as battle systems go, the only type I particularly like is Real Time fighting. If a game doesn't have that then I don't really care what kind of battle system there is.

Personally I think people's expectations are far too high at this stage as far as storylines are concerned. What do you expect? A world wide best seller novel sort of story? For heaven's sake, look at the caliber of the movies that are being released now-a-days. I'ld much rather play FFXIII then waste my time on watching that crap.

I read an article today on this very topic: Charlie Brooker: Hollywood shuns intelligent entertainment. The games industry doesn't. Guess who's winning? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/23/gaming-makes-hollywood-look-embarrassing)

I don't think it's a bad thing to expect gaming to evolve as an art form. In fact, expecting as much is inevitable. What's maybe unfair is that they delivered a Final Fantasy game, and we've moved on. We've played other, more sophisticated games and don't want to go back to the cryptic, scattered, derivative themes and plots of the old FF games, especially if many of the new gameplay elements (such as the battle system) are boring. Visuals can't carry a game alone.

Personally I think people's expectations are far too high at this stage as far as storylines are concerned. What do you expect? A world wide best seller novel sort of story? For heaven's sake, look at the caliber of the movies that are being released now-a-days. I'ld much rather play FFXIII then waste my time on watching that crap.

They didn't fail with the story. The story wasn't bad. The world just wasn't fleshed out and I felt no connection to the people of Cocoon or Gran Pulse. Direct comparison: Spira. By the end of the game, even if you hated it, you could not deny that you had a connection with the people of Spira, and you knew their motivations, their various factions and why they were important to the story. Final Fantasy 13 did not capture that. That reason was why many of the previous RPGs were so strong (FF4,6,7,9,10).

So what would you all have done differently? As for fleshing out characters- you are all aware that we are in a minority of the worlds population who really care about such things. Put it to you this way, they have to cater to a wide range of people and some aren't as sophisticated as you or I. What annoys me is that they obviously have great potetial but are limited by their market and profit margines. They will probably never get to deliver to us what they could fully produce because of todays 'I want it and I want it now!' players. I personally do not hold them accountable. Once upon a time, people weren't so demanding.


We've played other, more sophisticated games

Such as???

We've played other, more sophisticated games


Such as???

Depends on the individual in question. Speaking for myself, I found BioWare's offerings to be far better than some of the FF series (FFX, X-2, XII and XIII), but that's just me. Knights of the Old Republic for one, even though it's a old game now, is still superior to FFXIII, just my opinion that's all. Hell... even the old AD&D PC games (like Treasures of the Savage Frontier, Curse of the Azure Bonds or the three Dragonlance games) or Sierra's Quest for Glory series are superior to FFXIII (Especially the Quest for Glory games... they are just that damn good :D).

Knights of the Old Republic for one, even though it's a old game now, is still superior to FFXIII, just my opinion that's all

There is no doubt.


So what would you all have done differently?

The only thing I would have done differently is 1) increase the depth of the Cocoon populace (as I responded to Vrykolas in the free-roam thread and 2) made more clear cut villains. A lot of the side villains were also lacking in depth, even though they looked cool (for example, the officer dude when Snow was making a ice sculpture using Shiva in the town square area thing).

This is indeed a question of opinions but in what way exactly were the villians lacking in depth (or the Cocoon populace for that matter)?

And as far as I'm concerned Star Wars spin off games have never interested me in the slightest. The films were fine but I find the games pathetic. Just my opinion.

And as far as I'm concerned Star Wars spin off games have never interested me in the slightest. The films were fine but I find the games pathetic. Just my opinion.

Then you never played the Knights of the Old Republic games, only the ones set in the movie era. Your loss.

lol this is probably the first time in my life that i've heard the KOTOR game termed "pathetic." It's amazing.

Then you never played the Knights of the Old Republic games, only the ones set in the movie era. Your loss.

Hmmm...hate to break your little bubble there, but I have played the ''wonder'' that is the Knights of the Old Republic. I found it all very dull. My only loss is the time I wasted on playing it.
For a guy who hates spin-offs, I'm surprised you went for KOTOR. Your loss I suppose.


lol this is probably the first time in my life that i've heard the KOTOR game termed "pathetic." It's amazing.

Stupendous.

He never called it a wonder. Just a better game.

Hmmm...hate to break your little bubble there, but I have played the ''wonder'' that is the Knights of the Old Republic. I found it all very dull. My only loss is the time I wasted on playing it.
For a guy who hates spin-offs, I'm surprised you went for KOTOR. Your loss I suppose.

Then you obviously don't enjoy space opera or sci fi games, as the majority of people I know who have played Knights of the Old Republic agree that it's worthy of being a Game of the Year (which it was).

I do hate spin offs, I didn't lie when I said that. However, considering that the mainstream Star Wars games (Jedi Academy, Jedi Knight II, Dark Forces etc) didn't earn much praise from me, except for X-Wing and TIE Fighter (I have a fondness for space combat simulators. If you haven't played them, I pity you... I really do). Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, being set 4,000 years before the movies and during a era I personally found to be far more enjoyable in both story and character wise and not just from the KotOR games, but also the comics and backstory for that era. Exar Kun, Mandalore, Ulic Qel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider, Revan, The Exile, Zayne Carrick etc... all of them I find it easier to form a attachment with them, than with Anakin/Luke/Cade Skywalker etc.

Like Dragoncurry said, I never called it a wonder. KotOR is a better game than FFXIII.

If any of you have the walkthrough look at the guide for each chapter, every map is a straight line, save for one or two. I hate to bring up the old "Corridor with wallpaper" argument but it's kinda true. Also the battle system is very flawed I find. To each their own but I was dissapointed. Story was ok though.

Long time no see, Harkus.

I think it strays too far from the series' traditions, so, a possible cause for this.
However, calling it bad or worse FF ever is pure prejudice against some good qualities the game has, like the battle system.

The way I see it:

I can see where Alm�r is coming from. Pure negativity gets annoying after a while. This is a forum for Final Fantasy so there should be a general liking for the titles. I'm not saying that it is necessary to love every single one but the critism towards certain select games is very negative. If I were trying to create something, reading that sort of critism would crush me flat.

It is all up to personal opinion but as for me, I would view the FF titles as being some of the best RPGs, deserving of a place next to Suikoden II and the Zelda series. There aren't that many games who go through the same lengths that Final Fantasy does. FF XIII was a good game- not the best, but certainly not the worst.

As for the Battle System, I'm with Alm�r on that one: I frankly couldn't care less.

You know that one of the main reason why there are many hates for the game is because people accuse of it's linear style besides likes and dislikes about the battle system. I think people are being a bit too comparing with the game. I mean, it's an RPG... It's suppose to be a story. We all play for the sole purpose of knowing the story.

What irritates me is that half of the world doesn't even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.

Agree 100%. Thumbs up for quality post :)!.

You know that one of the main reason why there are many hates for the game is because people accuse of it's linear style besides likes and dislikes about the battle system. I think people are being a bit too comparing with the game. I mean, it's an RPG... It's suppose to be a story. We all play for the sole purpose of knowing the story.

What irritates me is that half of the world doesn't even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.

However, there are those who do have their own valid reasons as to why they hate this game. Myself, I tried to play it 3 times... the longest only being about 5 hours into it and I can honestly say I was bored to tears (and saying the game picks up after Chapter 11... in a 13 chapter game isn't a good thing, it's poor game design). Lacklustre characters, uninteresting plot, mediocre music and poor battle system. The lack of any NPC villages/towns like in earlier FF's irritated me as well, though that's only a minor quipe really. The opening scene was more or less ripped out of FFVII, and with the character designer being told to make a female Cloud Strife, that's exactly what we got in Lightning.

There's one review which sums up almost 100% perfectly my own opinion about this game, and here's the link:

Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion it's true, so while there are people who think FFXIII is the best ever... remember, there are those who despise it (some even more than FFVII).

Even more then FFVII? Ouch- that's harsh! To be painfully honest, I like them both. Well that's just me- Cheers!

(and saying the game picks up after Chapter 11... in a 13 chapter game isn't a good thing, it's poor game design).Chapter 11 and afterwards has a lot more plot and content than pre-Chapter 11.

Even more then FFVII? Ouch- that's harsh! To be painfully honest, I like them both. Well that's just me- Cheers!

Yeah... there are some out there who do hate it way more than FFVII. Myself, what I hated the most about FFXIII... was paying over $100 AUSD for the special edition and thinking it was going to be good... when it wasn't (for me at least). That's another reason I have negative feelings towards FFXIII...


Chapter 11 and afterwards has a lot more plot and content than pre-Chapter 11.

I don't consider playing through 11 boring chapters to be fun... or to have the game pick up after 11 either.

However, there are those who do have their own valid reasons as to why they hate this game. Myself, I tried to play it 3 times... the longest only being about 5 hours into it and I can honestly say I was bored to tears (and saying the game picks up after Chapter 11... in a 13 chapter game isn't a good thing, it's poor game design). Lacklustre characters, uninteresting plot, mediocre music and poor battle system. The lack of any NPC villages/towns like in earlier FF's irritated me as well, though that's only a minor quipe really. The opening scene was more or less ripped out of FFVII, and with the character designer being told to make a female Cloud Strife, that's exactly what we got in Lightning.

There's one review which sums up almost 100% perfectly my own opinion about this game, and here's the link:

Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion it's true, so while there are people who think FFXIII is the best ever... remember, there are those who despise it (some even more than FFVII).

It's true. I wasn't referring to everyone being biased about the game. I was talking about the other half of the gaming community who has a bad habit having no credentials in what they say (ie: Judging the game before they play, basing their own false opinions after reading other's opinion). But considering you played the game already, your opinion is valid. ;D. Obviously the game does have its up and down.

One thing that bothers me though is why does people like FFVII (being that it's already overrated) so much? I played the game twice but still don't see how it's so different and majorly more fascinating than some of the other Final Fantasies.

One thing that bothers me though is why does people like FFVII (being that it's already overrated) so much? I played the game twice but still don't see how it's so different and majorly more fascinating than some of the other Final Fantasies.

For me it just struck a chord...know what I mean? I started with Crisis Core so I guess I was introduced to it with a different main character. Zack was a very engaging playable character that you really root for. I goy attached to the supporting characters (ie. Aerith, Sephiroth, Tifa, etc) because I loved the game from the get go (mostly due to Zack's upbeat nature). Zack is completely different to Cloud, so I got a very different outlook.

There was also a different message behind the FFVII compilation- a message I feel strongly about. So between the characters and message I found the storyline fascinating.

As for being overrated- it most deffinitely is. But you won't find me going ON and On about it. Besides, I've got a life to lead. Can't say much for those weirdo fanatics.

One thing that bothers me though is why does people like FFVII (being that it's already overrated) so much? I played the game twice but still don't see how it's so different and majorly more fascinating than some of the other Final Fantasies.First major RPG for the PSX. It def wasn't the first but it got a ton of people into the genre, and frankly the plot was quite fascinating for something at the time. I personally believe FF7 was a phenomenal game once upon a time that just aged horribly.

One thing that bothers me though is why does people like FFVII (being that it's already overrated) so much? I played the game twice but still don't see how it's so different and majorly more fascinating than some of the other Final Fantasies.

FFVII helped to bring RPG's out from the niche market they were predominantly in and into the mainstream market. At the time, everyone HAD to play it etc etc... and while I admit it was the second game I ever owned for my PSX (DON'T ASK ME WHAT THE FIRST WAS!!!), it was in no means the best. True it had a good story and great music... but unfortunately, along with it came a lot of newbies to the series, who started to revere it as the second coming of Jesus Christ. Like Neo Xzhan said in another post here "See I look at it like religion. It's not God I hate, it's his fanclub", it was the fanatical fans who raved on and on and on about it on online forums/magazines etc which put me off.

When Hironobu Sakaguchi, the Father of Final Fantasy, was fired from the board of Directors and subsequently quit SE, it wasn't long after that that talk of the compilation of FFVII began. SE needed money to recoup their losses from Sakaguchi's failed final project "The Spirits Within", and whoring out the FFVII name, characters and story allowed them to get back some of them. FFVII as it was, was a good game and didn't need a sequel/prequel/movie made... all of that was done for two reasons imo. The aforementioned need to rebuild their finances after that failure and to appease the fanatical fan's screaming for more.

Now, sadly... these fanatics are still around... only they've grown worse in their worship of FFVII. Case in point, when I picked up my copy of Dragon Age II Signature Edition earlier this year, I was approached by another person in that store and told that the game I just purchased had a weak story, apathetical characters, terrible music and that the battle system didn't work. I was then recommended by this person to get the one game which will continue to surpass any other RPG, nay, any other game period. The game this misenthrope recommended to me: Final Fantasy VII. Spouting how great etc it is... he refused to let me pass until he finished his spiel. Once he was done, I told that I have played the FF series, and only play the 11th installment on a regular basis... which set him off again. Berating and belittling my choice in FF's... though, he did say that FFX, FFXII and FFXIII are 'almost' as good as FFVII, and he then 'ordered' me to get rid of Dragon Age II and FFXI and get the 'great ones'. It was then I told him I've been playing the FF series since the NES... and while VII was good, I prefer VIII due to sentimental reasons, but consider IV and VI to be the particular 'great ones'... the discussion ended with this guy throwing a punch at me, but hitting a police officer who was there purchasing another game instead. Heh... good times ensued.

However, this thread isn't about FFVII etc...

Come on man, where are your standards? The accepted response to dealing with these kinds of people, is to powerbomb them through the bargain games bin. Surely gaming hasn't been dumbed down so much that we're ditching the classics?

Oh and by the way. what was the first game you owned for the PSX?

:D

Well... the guy hit a police officer lol... so I just stood back and watched the fun :D

... and NO! I'm not telling the first game I got on my PSX.

Well, how bad can it possibly be? Unless it was 'Nightmare Creatures' or something...

On second thoughts, maybe you better had keep it to yourself.

.... it was this: Why... WHY DID I BUY THIS?!?! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62oeooK9syA)

.... it was this: Why... WHY DID I BUY THIS?!?! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62oeooK9syA)

Hey, the PS2 game by Atari was good!

it was the fanatical fans who raved on and on and on about it on online forums/magazines etc which put me off.


Sorry Revan but you really shouldn't let others dictate how you feel about something. If they want to lose the head over it- fine let them. But don't let that spoil it for you. You liked it for what it was- now let's move on.

The negativity gets me down sometimes because I know that the very people who are flaming the fanboys/girls actually like the game for what it was- a game, nothing more, nothing less. LOL, they probably apprieciate it more than the fanatics do! But unlike the stupid yabos people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line.

Stupid yabos people?


When people like things a lot it's quite a put-off, especially to hear a shitload of people raving on and on about one thing and just that one thing. He's pretty much just sick of hearing it i bet, which is a legitimate thing to think. Pretty much the reason I can't stand FPSes.

You know that one of the main reason why there are many hates for the game is because people accuse of it's linear style besides likes and dislikes about the battle system. I think people are being a bit too comparing with the game. I mean, it's an RPG... It's suppose to be a story. We all play for the sole purpose of knowing the story.

What irritates me is that half of the world doesn't even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.

What irritates me is when people say RPG is supposed to be a story and then defend Final Fantasy 13's story. It was poorly paced, and the environments were beautiful but dead. I'm sorry, mad people gave their reasons and you chose to ignore the few that weren't like "this game is linear" or "this battle system sucks." In the end, it's a game that takes 11 chapters to pick up, and overall, even if it's battle system was a godsend, it wouldn't be able to carry the makeshift world on it's back to success sorry.


The negativity gets me down sometimes because I know that the very people who are flaming the fanboys/girls actually like the game for what it was- a game, nothing more, nothing less. LOL, they probably apprieciate it more than the fanatics do! But unlike the stupid yabos people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line.

It shouldn't get you down at all. I love FF7, but I don't like it when idiots defend my game. Similarly, I love Pokemon, and when some idiot froths at my foot about it, I'm going to be like...stop frothing at my fucking foot, the game isn't that amazing. Granted I played it for 80 hours in the last two weeks, but really...stop.

Hey I know people that love FF13's story, they just didn't like the gameplay very much at all due to difficulty. It's still all up to personal preference anyway...

What I meant was "Unlike the stupid yabos, people like Revan and NeoZhan know where to draw the line."....I forgot the comma- my major bad.

I'm good friends with Revan and had no intention of insulting him- or NeoZhan for that matter.


It shouldn't get you down at all. I love FF7, but I don't like it when idiots defend my game. Similarly, I love Pokemon, and when some idiot froths at my foot about it, I'm going to be like...stop frothing at my fucking foot, the game isn't that amazing. Granted I played it for 80 hours in the last two weeks, but really...stop.

You know, that was very well said. Couldn't have put it better. However just because the idiot is frothing at your feet over it doesn't mean you should start disliking the game, right?

Galaroval:
Whilst its nice to see someone else who is getting some enjoyment out of present day FF (I think 12 and 13 are the best installments in a long, long, long time), does it really do the series any good if people don't speak their mind about the games?

I mean, you were saying before that because the site is at least in name, a Final Fantasy site, we should really all be being positive about the series. Now again, for me that's not really a problem, as I've liked the recent games. But surely, people should be allowed to air their views if they don't like them?

The lack of truly positive rebuttals to the general feeling of disatisfaction, speaks to FF13's failure to recapture the series' core supporters (at least not en masse anyway). I liked the game, but did I *love* it... Not really, no. And whilst I am probably one of the more outspoken supporters of the modern installments, I can't say that FF13 has me fired up and ready to go out there and really champion the series to people.

Its hard to be an activist for a series, when the best you can say is 'Its pretty good, and better than people say'. I believe that statement to be true about FF13, but I'm going to say that people who don't play it are missing out on a life changingly amazing gaming experience. Its a decent JRPG, a good Final Fantasy title, but I think any reasonably objective fan would have to concede, it could have been much better.

I think FF13 is perhaps being treated slightly unfairly, but I think FF12 was treated far worse - in that I think FF12 is a genuinely great game, that is criminally undervalued. 13 is good, but its no 7 or 12.

This is just a really awkward time for Final Fantasy. But we can't manufacture victories that don't exist - the fact is, if the series wants to be considered great again, it has to earn it. If they do come up with a great game, then series fans have to do their part and make sensible cases for why people should check it out.

But if the games aren't good enough for that, we should be able to admit that, but still flag up what we think SE are doing right. Because contrary to what a lot of people are saying, I think SE is still producing good games - it just isn't producing many great games at the moment.

I think FF13 is perhaps being treated slightly unfairly, but I think FF12 was treated far worse - in that I think FF12 is a genuinely great game, that is criminally undervalued. 13 is good, but its no 7 or 12.


QFT! Kudos for that buddy!

Whilst its nice to see someone else who is getting some enjoyment out of present day FF (I think 12 and 13 are the best installments in a long, long, long time), does it really do the series any good if people don't speak their mind about the games?His point is when it goes too far and is too much in excess as opposed to people just generally speaking good about it.

I was referring specificially to when he said on Page 5 of this thread:

'Pure negativity gets annoying after a while. This is a forum for Final Fantasy so there should be a general liking for the titles. I'm not saying that it is necessary to love every single one, but the criticism towards certain select games is very negative. If I were trying to create something, reading that sort of criticism would crush me flat.'



Its that 'there should be a general liking for the titles' bit that particularly gets me. I don't want the site to be 'For Final Fantasy fans only - everyone else can go somewhere else'. That's obviously exaggerating and misrepresenting what he said, but these things can be a slippery slope.

If people are just insulting the games and have weak arguments, then they should be called on it. But I think the site should be willing to hear from people who may not even like any of the titles, as long as they make good cases for what they say, and aren't just being willfully disruptive to push people's buttons etc.

Basically, I'm just saying that whilst some people are having a go for the sake of it, others are making good points and should be heard. Because like I say, even though I like Ff12 and 13, I think the series is very far from being in robust health, at least in terms of perception of the series, popularity, core support etc.

I don't think we should be retreating to a 'let's just discuss the good points, because that's less stressful' standpoint. I think fans owe it to themselves and the series to always try and keep an honest view about where the series actually stands, at any given time.

Pure negativity gets annoying after a while. This is a forum for Final Fantasy so there should be a general liking for the titles. I'm not saying that it is necessary to love every single one but the critism towards certain select games is very negative. If I were trying to create something, reading that sort of critism would crush me flat...FF XIII was a good game- not the best, but certainly not the worst.

The way I see it, Square Enix is a corporation that exists for making capital by putting out installments in the gaming industry. That�s all. They use the tropes and clich�s of japanese anime, JRPGs, etc. to appeal to fans of the genre. What�s interesting to me is that I don�t see them as �creating� in the same sense that you do. Maybe that�s just because I�m a cynical bastard, but to me, it�s the means to an end (Although I do believe that the company once genuinely wanted to put out great games without consideration of profit).

According to Wikipedia, �As of May 2010, the game shipped 5.5 million copies worldwide, becoming the fastest-selling title in the history of the series.� And from the demo of FFXIII-2 at E3 2011, it looks like they�re just repeating their mistake, but in fact trying to capitalize even more on their previous successes by bringing moogles in. Think about it. I think that if anything, Square-Enix needs to be woken up from their delusion of what they think qualifies as a good game, just because they hold the rights to the FF franchise. And as long as we, the gamers, keep buying their material and then get frustrated when people call for better quality games, the quality of games will only suffer. S-E�s stubbornness to admit a decline in gaming quality, if that�s what it is, is a product of figures.


You know that one of the main reason why there are many hates for the game is because people accuse of it's linear style besides likes and dislikes about the battle system. I think people are being a bit too comparing with the game. I mean, it's an RPG... It's suppose to be a story. We all play for the sole purpose of knowing the story.

The problem here is that FF13 is the thirteenth installment of a franchise. It�s no longer possible to not compare it to the previous installments. When a new Final Fantasy title is revealed, people get fired up over it because they draw comparisons and hold expectations based on previous releases. The Final Fantasy series (excluding the MMOs of 11 and 14) has always made a certain kind of game that appeal to a certain kind of gamer, namely, one who likes JRPGs. Although I agree with the fundamental point of your statement, that each game should be considered a microcosm in and of itself, that�s not how gamers think, and for a number of reasons. With each FF title, Square/Square-Enix wants to create something new, but draw from influence of previously made titles, as well as influences from other series.


What irritates me is that half of the world doesn't even know what linear is until someone brings it up and they all become skeptic for no apparent reason and hate on the game even though they have yet to input their own personal opinion. In other words, biased.

I agree with the point that if you don�t play the game, you can�t impose an accurate judgment on it. That�s true with anything: you can�t review a book by just reading the back cover. HOWEVER, there is a reason for reviews and online discussion boards. When someone says that the game is too linear, they are criticizing a certain aspect that has become an expectation of the installments in the FF franchise.

Having played 7, 8, 9, 10, 10-2, and 12, I think that I am at least reasonably qualified to impose my knowledge of the previous titles to understand what the critic is trying to say about FFXIII and what gamers have come to expect from JRPGs. I can apply the criticism of linearity to the previous titles that I enjoyed; I can imagine FFVII and VIII without the element of freedom. I can also draw the comparison to FFX, which I found, in retrospect, to be very linear (at least, until the end). And through this, I can formulate an anticipation of particular aspects of the gameplay. That does not qualify as the same thing as playing the game, of course, but it does tell you something about the gameplay, and when the frequent criticsm of FFXIII�s linearity contrasts with the open-world feel that was praised from previous installments and has come to be an expectation from the series, it contributes to an inevitable dislike of the game.


Its that 'there should be a general liking for the titles' bit that particularly gets me. I don't want the site to be 'For Final Fantasy fans only - everyone else can go somewhere else'. That's obviously exaggerating and misrepresenting what he said, but these things can be a slippery slope.

If people are just insulting the games and have weak arguments, then they should be called on it. But I think the site should be willing to hear from people who may not even like any of the titles, as long as they make good cases for what they say, and aren't just being willfully disruptive to push people's buttons etc.

Basically, I'm just saying that whilst some people are having a go for the sake of it, others are making good points and should be heard. Because like I say, even though I like Ff12 and 13, I think the series is very far from being in robust health, at least in terms of perception of the series, popularity, core support etc.

I don't think we should be retreating to a 'let's just discuss the good points, because that's less stressful' standpoint. I think fans owe it to themselves and the series to always try and keep an honest view about where the series actually stands, at any given time.

I totally agree, but I would mention two things. First of all, the negative criticism needs to be constructive. Just saying �It�s too linear� is only partly helpful. Critics should give suggestions for improvement considering the plot, location, etc. The integration of certain elements with the constants (plot, etc.) is the difficult part. It�s easy to criticize when we don�t think about integration.

Secondly, I think that S-E is being stubborn. They need to be receptive to gamers� complaints, rather than dismissive. And we gamers should also be receptive. Where many people find fault, there is, in fact, fault in one form or another. I�m not saying that every installment has to appeal to every kind of gamer--that�s an impossible task. But when the game divides gamers who previously agreed on most of the previous installments, there is room for improvement. Both we and S-E have to be open in acknowledging the problems and take the matters to heart. And all the negative feedback is good in that it reveals to the gaming community and the gaming franchises what our values are, and that we will voice our opinions when we agree in a common fault. But if all S-E cares about is sales and we continue to buy their games, no matter what quality they are, there will never be improvement.

I agree with your first point, but not your second.

I don't think people give SE enough credit, because I think they do listen (even when they shouldn't) and they try very hard. Ian Livingstone recently commented that far from throwing their weight around and adopting a 'we know best' attitude after merging with his company, their staff are always asking questions, eager to learn how they can appeal to western audiences more.

SE bent over backwards to address the (very unwise) comments that were made about FF12. Fans complained of slow pace, too open a world in which the story got lost for long periods, characters that could all be customised so much that they could become basically the same etc etc).

And so they cut out the free roaming, kept the focus on the main plot, sped the action up, split characters up so you had to use all of them and each got plenty of screen time, made each character play distinctively because of their available paradigms, did away with pointless loot etc etc.

But now they get hit with complaints about linearity, over simplified combat, not enough build up in the story etc etc...

IMO, they got it spot on with FF12, the change in directors being the only problem and one that could not be helped. And because the feedback was so negative about that game (from fans only, as FF12 was regarded warmly by some of the harshest critics out there), that they made lots of stylistic changes in FF13 that simply didn't need to be made.

SE have been by far the company that put in the most effort to tackling the issues of gameplay in JRPGs. Look outside SE and you see Namco and Mistwalker etc content to use decades old systems, with very little attention given to them. But SE have in games like Star Ocean 3+4, FF10-2, 12 and 13 etc, shown they are heedful of the need to update combat systems and make them more dynamic.

I think the core issue (and I've said it many times) is that people just don't like JRPGs at the moment. And that's because its been a long time since there has been a unifying title in the vein of FF7 or KOTOR (for WRPGs) that return their respective genres to the limelight.

And that's why I think SE actually need to listen less to fans (who opinions are reactive to the games they are seeing), and instead focus on finding someone with the spark of genius. These people are out there (people like Suda 51 and SWERY are good examples). They need to take a change on someone like that. Because only a truly fresh and inspired game will break them out of this slump.

At least, that's why I think, anyway.

His point is when it goes too far and is too much in excess as opposed to people just generally speaking good about it.

Yes this is indeed part of what I meant by that statement on page 5.


the negative criticism needs to be constructive. Just saying “It’s too linear” is only partly helpful. Critics should give suggestions for improvement considering the plot, location, etc. The integration of certain elements with the constants (plot, etc.) is the difficult part. It’s easy to criticize when we don’t think about integration.


And this is the other part of what I ment.

Being a blind fanatic who sees no fault is just as annoying as one who criticises to the extreme.
I recall Alm�r asking DragonCurry what he would have done differently (page 4-5). Asking those kind of questions is more contructive and far more usefull than having X amount of people defending the existance of the title and having Y amount of people flamming them. Topics like these do often turn out this way, acheiving nothing in the end.


does it really do the series any good if people don't speak their mind about the games?

As for people speaking their minds: I personnally have no intention of stoping them. Yes I may become caustic towards someone if I believe that they are just being antagonistic for the hell of it, and yes I may even fool around a bit, but I would not want to stop anyone explaining their points and views.


Square-Enix needs to be woken up from their delusion of what they think qualifies as a good game, just because they hold the rights to the FF franchise.

Well, people are still buying them. Unless the population of gamers has grown increasingly S-T-U-P-I-D during the last few years then SE must be doing something right in someone's opinion. 5.5 million copies sure is a lot, and they certainly didn't make all those copies for the goodness of their health so they must be selling. Unless of course you're of the belief that there are 5.5 mentally challenged people out there.
(if that is what you believe then so be it- but I sincerely doubt it myself)

SE bent over backwards to address the (very unwise) comments that were made about FF12. Fans complained of slow pace, too open a world in which the story got lost for long periods, characters that could all be customised so much that they could become basically the same etc etc).

And so they cut out the free roaming, kept the focus on the main plot, sped the action up, split characters up so you had to use all of them and each got plenty of screen time, made each character play distinctively because of their available paradigms, did away with pointless loot etc etc.

But now they get hit with complaints about linearity, over simplified combat, not enough build up in the story etc etc...

Got any links to prove that?

Got any links to prove that?

Look at the feedback of any reviewer of FFXIII and compare the game with XII. They are the complete opposite.

Being a blind fanatic who sees no fault is just as annoying as one who criticises to the extreme.
I recall Alm�r asking DragonCurry what he would have done differently (page 4-5). Asking those kind of questions is more contructive and far more usefull than having X amount of people defending the existance of the title and having Y amount of people flamming them. Topics like these do often turn out this way, acheiving nothing in the end.

Sadly though... the FF series has spawned numerous fanatics, just look at the FFVII Compilation for example and how the rabid fanbase is for them or even the PS2 generation of FF's. Each individual is different, but once they meet others who share their views, they flock together and think that if they get more with the same opinion on their side, that they'll get it across and hope that they'll change other people's opinions.


As for people speaking their minds: I personnally have no intention of stoping them. Yes I may become caustic towards someone if I believe that they are just being antagonistic for the hell of it, and yes I may even fool around a bit, but I would not want to stop anyone explaining their points and views.

Sad but true... best to let the fools spout their own twisted gospel and ignore them. That's the worst thing you can do to them imo.


Well, people are still buying them. Unless the population of gamers has grown increasingly S-T-U-P-I-D during the last few years then SE must be doing something right in someone's opinion. 5.5 million copies sure is a lot, and they certainly didn't make all those copies for the goodness of their health so they must be selling. Unless of course you're of the belief that there are 5.5 mentally challenged people out there.
(if that is what you believe then so be it- but I sincerely doubt it myself)

I think it can also be attributed to a influx in newcomers to the series, who don't know any better. The ones who think that graphics are more important than anything else. True 5.5 million copies is a lot... but what no one takes into account, are most probably the amount of copies returned to their stores of purchase. Still, gamers are quite diverse lot.


Look at the feedback of any reviewer of FFXIII and compare the game with XII. They are the complete opposite.

Remember though topopoz, reviewers generally fall into two categories: Unbiased and Biased. IIRC, there were some reviewers who gave FFXIII glowing and almost perfect scores... however later they did change their minds. I don't really think a person can truly trust a reviewer's opinion regardless of who the reviewer is. Only way a gamer can truly find out if the game in question, is one that they'll enjoy is to play it themselves.

Precisely - I'm not sure what you're getting at there, Aniki. What evidence do you need, beyond common sense, seeing as the fact is the games are totally different in style, tone and gameplay? (There is also the fact that I'm absolutely hopeless with computers and couldn't post a link if my life depended on it - see my lack of an Avatar; it isn't because I don't believe in them...)

Or do you consider FF13 to be free roaming? The one thing that everyone agrees about FF13 is that it is linear, with cutscenes every 5 minutes. If that isn't keeping the focus on the story, then what is? The game is divided into 13 Chapters, which each have their own specific plot point, which plays out to a conclusion before the game moves on.

And the action is sped up - the move to real time combat, with no seperate 'battle screen' in FF12 was hugely controversial. This game restores it, along with the fact you heal instantly after each fight, that there is no MP for spells, a much slimmed down Gambit style system, only a bare bones inventory system, auto battle command etc etc.

Fans were very vocal in their criticisms when FF12 came out. I remember Edge magazine did an article revisting FF12 fairly recently, going to pains to point out that it is by far the best installment in years in their opinion, and that many fans did the series no favours by criticising it so heavily, whilst lauding emo bore-fests like FF10.

And I agree with them - I'm a much bigger fan of FF13 than most people on here, but I still think many of the decisions taken in that game's development, represent a step back from FF12.


Anyway, Square do seem to be trying. They putting up some of the cash for Deus Ex: Revolution, aren't they? I'm sure they're involved somehow. And they worked with Obsidian recently on Dungeon Siege 3, so they're obviously trying to keep abreast of developments in RPGs.

We'll have to judge them on merit of course, but these things can take time. How long did it take EA to remember how to make good games again? You couldn't pay me to play the games they were making 5 years ago, but they're one of my favourite companies again, now.

Remember though topopoz, reviewers generally fall into two categories: Unbiased and Biased. IIRC, there were some reviewers who gave FFXIII glowing and almost perfect scores... however later they did change their minds. I don't really think a person can truly trust a reviewer's opinion regardless of who the reviewer is. Only way a gamer can truly find out if the game in question, is one that they'll enjoy is to play it themselves.

I don't give them credit for being accurate. But it's more based on the more common complains from both types of reviewes. Even the internet personalities, such as Zero Punctuation and the TGWTG people.

They complained about the linearity, the battle system and the hard to follow storyline, art design and annoying characters.

XII on the counterpart has no linearity, a overly flexible Battle system, even though the art design for certain characters like Vaan is ugly, the others worked perfectly IMO as the characters some of them are annoying and some of them are not. The story still is hard to follow I'll give you that. And that's the main reason people blindly say that the storyline of XII sucks or is another SW ripoff.

But Highlighting the common things. XIII and XII are opposites and that's the main hint that S-E did listened to the fans.

The art design for FF12 is great (although Balthier's combat animation with a spear is quite odd - he seems to use it like a hammer!)

Balthier's combat animation with a spear is quite odd - he seems to use it like a hammer!

More like a Shovel I would say XD

Many people hate this game because they are intimidated by Lightning.

Many people hate this game because they are intimidated by Lightning.




Intimidated by a female Cloud Strife?!? Not bloody likely... and for the record I don't find her intimidating at all, if anything I feel sorry for her as she's going to typecast always as a female Cloud Strife (just like how Mark 'The Force waved bye-bye to any good gigs I could've gotten, like what Harrison Ford got' Hamill, who shall forever be remembered as Luke Skywalker(and to a lesser extent as Colonel Christopher Blair in the Wing Commander games and the voice of The Joker)).

Lightning had no chance to break the mold from whence she was created, as SE 'wanted' the female lead to be modern representation of FFVII's protaganist.

Lightning had no chance to break the mold from whence she was created, as SE 'wanted' the female lead to be modern representation of FFVII's protaganist.

Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?

Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?

It's common knowledge that the lead character designer for FFXIII (Tetsura Nomura) was told by Motomu Toriyama to make Lightning, more or less a female Cloud Strife. Taken from Wikipedia:


His guideline to character designer Tetsuya Nomura was to make her "strong and beautiful", "someone like a female version of Cloud from FFVII".

On that same page, even Videogamer.com compared Lightning to Cloud:


simply referred to Lightning as the female version of the Final Fantasy VII lead character Cloud Strife

So no Almir, I did not 'pluck that randomly from my head'. Don't believe me? Here's the damn link: Lightning (Final Fantasy) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(Final_Fantasy)).

Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?

FFXIII Interview: Nomura, Kitase, Hashimoto and Toriyama: News from 1UP.com (http://www.1up.com/news/ffxiii-interview)

The design and inspiration for Lightning may indeed be derived from Cloud (as previously stated in the damn link). However the storyline alone exploited some major differences between the two. Cloud avoided conflict and tried to foist the responsibility else where. Lightning on the other hand was the complete opposite. There were also major differences between the way they treated their allies. For more information play the game to the end this time before posting.

I completely support Almir on this.

Whether Lighting to intended to be Cloud MkII, doesn't get in the way of the fact that the characters have significant differences. They have to address many of the same issues that all heroes in RPGs do (learning who they really are, questioning what they think they know, learning to trust others instead of themselves etc etc). But there are differences too - they are by no means just the same character with a different gender.

Cloud is an arrogant, mercenary for hire. Lightning is a member of the security forces, and whilst annoyed at other team member's lack of strength and endurance, she never ever brags about having it herself. As far as I remember, she never once during the game boasts about anything at all.

She is working to make a life for herself, but primarily for her sister - Cloud is only interested in making money for himself. Its a major sore point between him and Barret, seeing as how Cloud is perfectly happy to accept money that Barret was saving for his daughter's future.

Cloud's story leads him to realise he was never able to be the man he wanted to be, when he set out to join SOLDIER. He wasn't good enough, and is only strong now, because of the genetic mods that Professor Hojo gave him. Lightning however *was* good enough on her own merit to join the corps, and was due for promotion. Until the purge, her life was more or less sorted.


They both have to faces a crisis of self worth, find the strength to go on against impossible odds - but that's hardly unique to them, is it? Join the queue with all the rest of the heroes!

See?

You guys are taking what Revan said far too much to heart. Lightning and Cloud share a similar humorless badass persona, for lack of better terms. That's essentially what the creators were getting at. Just thought I'd pitch my two cents. Carry on.

Certainly. I only wanted to clearify the issue, (if one would grace it with such a term), after all I am allowed to disagree. It doesn't mean I'm taking it to heart, merely expressing a view. I personally wouldn't take anything Revan (or anyone else) said to heart, I'm not that sensitive.

Actually I find myself agreeing with Alm�r too on this one. He was just making a point- That's my two cents. Don't mind me.


You know, between myself and CC this site would never have to look for donations again!

LOL Gala :) I understand Alm�r; I guess I was the one taking all that too seriously, lol.

You? Nah- you're a legend man. You Rock, it's not in your nature to be all up tight ^^

I guess I was the one taking all that too seriously

Not exactly. Doesn't really matter either way.

You? Nah- you're a legend man. You Rock, it's not in your nature to be all up tight ^^

Yeah, s'right! I am legend! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tK0e4DT8uE) No uptightness from me! I leave that to Wedge :p

The design and inspiration for Lightning may indeed be derived from Cloud (as previously stated in the damn link). However the storyline alone exploited some major differences between the two. Cloud avoided conflict and tried to foist the responsibility else where. Lightning on the other hand was the complete opposite. There were also major differences between the way they treated their allies.

That's your opinion (as well as it seems for Vrykolas, CC and Galaroval), however I don't see it that way. True they treated their allies differently and had different views on conflict and responsibility, however the similarities to both Cloud and Lightning are there. When you get right down to the core of both characters, they are more or less the same.


For more information play the game to the end this time before posting.

After having tried to play FFXIII three times (with the last getting up to Chapter Nine for the record) and being unable to due to the fact the game has many flaws (Now I don't agree with many reviewers at all... however happen I agree completely with what Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw (which is rare for me to agree with ANY reviewer at all, as I prefer to play the game in question myself and form my own opinion of it, instead of reading/listening to a reviewers biased/unbiased opinion) said in his review of FFXIII on Zero Punctuation (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII). I have no intention of playing a 13 chapter game for however long it takes to get to the 11th Chapter where the story supposedly 'picks up', just so I can post in this thread. I have played FFXIII and don't like it one bit, and I have my opinion on the game and it's characters. As this is a forum where one can post their opinions, I will post my opinion about this game. Don't like that? Too damn bad Almir. Think "I'm taking this to heart"? Not really but whatever. Think what you all want to think, doesn't matter to me.

Well, my opinion is always subject to change :p It seems like Lightning could resemble Cloud or Squall. They all have the same overall solemn demeanor (that's the main similarity) they all like to let their weapon do the talking for them, and they all enter battle straight as an arrow without a lot of room left for emotion. Deep down, they care about their comrades; they've just been broken by a lot of past turmoil in their lives. As for FFXIII, it certainly isn't a game for everyone. I'll be the first to say I do enjoy it, but I would not call it my favorite of the series by far. The music is better than I expected (Masashi Hamauzu is not the sole composer, but the lack of Nobuo Uematsu certainly does it some serious injustice) and the story really only seems to make as much sense as SE wanted it to (don't quote me on that, I'm only about nine hours in) but every game that came before it has outdone it in almost every way. Its merits warrant one playthrough for me, but I don't see any replays in the future.

As this is a forum where one can post their opinions, I will post my opinion about this game. Don't like that? Too damn bad Almir. Think "I'm taking this to heart"? Not really but whatever. Think what you all want to think, doesn't matter to me.

Y'know, it's funny. But... I don't think that Alm�r had any objection at all about you expressing your opinion on this matter. Neither do I or anyone else. So no need to be defensive about it. Chill.

But you're overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity. My point is that to not play a game to its full and proper ending and then to log on to a forum where these games are discussed and proceed to shoot the whole game out of the air and watch it crash and burn around other people's feet is not going to make you very popular on said forum. Maybe that dosn't matter to you. My advice: play FF13...to the end...and then you can draw your conclusions after that. It might just get better after Chapter 11, you never know.

Oh, and a word of advice...try not to let Alm�r get under your skin, ok? You might look bad.

But you're overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity. My point is that to not play a game to its full and proper ending and then to log on to a forum where these games are discussed and proceed to shoot the whole game out of the air and watch it crash and burn around other people's feet is not going to make you very popular on said forum. Maybe that dosn't matter to you. My advice: play FF13...to the end...and then you can draw your conclusions after that. It might just get better after Chapter 11, you never know.


Quality post. You should post here more often. Might knock some sense into a dying thread.


Think "I'm taking this to heart"?

Revan, maybe you should sit down before you hurt yourself.
And get off your high horse, I don't recall accusing you of 'taking it to heart' at all. Read back a post or two and get your facts right before you start slinging your weight around.

Too damn bad Almir. Think "I'm taking this to heart"? Not really but whatever

Wha's the problem man? Lighten up for god's sake.

Darkest Gunblade has the right of it. Conceed the point.

Steady on, now. Rev's entitled to his opinion, same as we are. He hasn't got to concede anything, if he's not convinced.

Besides, Lightning's development on a personal level is pretty much wrapped up by the end of Parumpolum in Chapter... 6, i think. The latter half of the game emphasises the team, rather than individual characters. I agree that there are many issues you need to play the whole game to have a proper opinion about, but for this specific detail (how similar Lightning and Cloud are), that only really requires you to see how she is during the early chapters.


Anyway, comparing the two because they are solemn and 'action speaks louder than words' characters is unsound, IMO. They share that trait with dozens of equally laconic JRPG main heroes. Squall from FF8, Kaim Argonar from Lost Odyssey, to name but two (though there are legions more). And I would also argue that Lightning is more like Squall than Cloud.

Cloud's macho posturing is completely unlike Lightning. He enjoys irritating people like Barret and he likes how strong he is, Lightning just gets on with things and doesn't care what other people think about her.

Steady on, now. Rev's entitled to his opinion, same as we are. He hasn't got to concede anything, if he's not convinced.

Like Darkest Gunblade previously stated:


But you're overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity.

Sine Rev hasn't taken the time to do this (he has already admitted himself that he has never finished the game), I can't see how he could give a full educated opinion.

This is a lengthy post in response to a few posts directed at myself. To the Mods/Admins, I apologise, but felt the need to post this.


Y'know, it's funny. But... I don't think that Alm�r had any objection at all about you expressing your opinion on this matter. Neither do I or anyone else. So no need to be defensive about it. Chill.

If I wanted to be defensive, crude or downright offensive in my posts etc about this, I'd do more than what I've done so far. Point of fact, that this whole incident happened due to a post Almir made on the previous page:


Do you by chance have any facts to back up that theory- or did you, like so many previously, pluck that randomly from your head?

That last part wasn't called for, yet he felt the need to end his post with a insult. Having been a member here for as long as I have, seeing posts like the above does annoy me as it wasn't needed.


But you're overlooking the fact that to truely have a full opinion on anything in life, one should know about it in its entirity. My point is that to not play a game to its full and proper ending and then to log on to a forum where these games are discussed and proceed to shoot the whole game out of the air and watch it crash and burn around other people's feet is not going to make you very popular on said forum. Maybe that dosn't matter to you.

Once again, I've seen posts similar to the above here over the years, stating the same as you have (more or less), yet that doesn't change the fact that there are others who disagree with your opinion and they are entitled to voice it however they see fit.


My advice: play FF13...to the end...and then you can draw your conclusions after that. It might just get better after Chapter 11, you never know.

No. I've spent $110AUSD for my first copy (which was loaned to a family member and returned damaged, hence the need to purchase a second copy), $80AUSD for the second copy (That was traded in at the time towards purchasing another game) and finally $10AUSD for a brand new and sealed copy, which after playing up to Chapter 9, I couldn't play anymore due to reasons I've stated before in this thread.

I've played every previous FF (FFI on the NES; FFIV, V, VI on the SNES; and so on) and they've all managed to garner my interest from the get go. FFXII, while having a battle system which was reminiscent of FFXI's own battle system and having it's story (with obvious references) to Star Wars, was still able to get me to play it at least twice.

XIII has failed three times to 'hook my interest', and while I haven't finished the game, I HAVE played enough of it to form my own opinion of it and therefore am allowed to express.


Oh, and a word of advice...try not to let Alm�r get under your skin, ok? You might look bad.

If Almir was getting under my skin, I'd be more vocal and vehement in my responses towards him. I haven't done so... yet and to be perfectly honest, I don't care what he thinks or anyone else. If my opinion of XIII is one you (or anyone else) doesn't like/agree with, that's fine. But when someone decides to make a attack or reference against myself, my friends here or with one of my posts, I will respond.


Revan, maybe you should sit down before you hurt yourself.
And get off your high horse, I don't recall accusing you of 'taking it to heart' at all. Read back a post or two and get your facts right before you start slinging your weight around.

Firstly Almir, being a smart alec isn't going to endear yourself to anyone. Secondly, and I feel am I partly responsible for you and Galaroval's misunderstanding of the last few sentences in my post, in particular this:

Think "I'm taking this to heart"?
That was a play on your own words in post #153 on this page:

Certainly. I only wanted to clearify the issue, (if one would grace it with such a term), after all I am allowed to disagree. It doesn't mean I'm taking it to heart, merely expressing a view. I personally wouldn't take anything Revan (or anyone else) said to heart, I'm not that sensitive.
With your posting specifically my name in that context, why shouldn't I use that? You've made remarks on the previous pages in response to my posts here, always in contradictory or negative tones. True, while they are your own opinion that's fine. However if my opinion is in contrast against yours, I am allowed to state as such.

So 'get off your own high horse' and ' get your facts right before you start slinging your weight around'.


Wha's the problem man? Lighten up for god's sake.

I was just responding in a similar tone to Almir's posts, as he has to mine earlier in this thread. This is like a similar incident which occurred in another thread in the "Role Playing Games" subforum: Anyone play Final Fantasy XIV?. (Thread 82462) topopoz made a response in that thread, after another member attempted what Almir is trying to do.


In DH defense:
You take DH as a troll? You didn't see anything yet... Stay a little more & then you will learn to difference who are the trolls & who aren't...
If DH is a troll then 99.9% of the members here are trolls too. Including myself of course.
In the meantime I'll enjoy watching this

All of you may think I'm trolling or whatever... I have not yet begun to do so. If I did, like I said above in response to Darkest Gunblade: If I wanted to be defensive, crude or downright offensive in my posts etc about this, I'd do more than what I've done so far.


Darkest Gunblade has the right of it. Conceed the point.

I won't as I do not agree with it, as Vrykolas stated:


Steady on, now. Rev's entitled to his opinion, same as we are. He hasn't got to concede anything, if he's not convinced.

Just because I don't happen to agree with the general consensus that XIII is the 'greatest FF eva!!', does that give Almir or anyone else (See what I did there?) the right to respond negatively to another's post? This whole 'incident' started from Almir's post on Page 6 regarding facts regarding the 'theory' towards the similarities between Lightning and Cloud Strife. IF he had worded his post differently like say "Do you have any proof to support that?" instead of the snide comment, then this wouldn't of happened.


Sine Rev hasn't taken the time to do this (he has already admitted himself that he has never finished the game), I can't see how he could give a full educated opinion.

So, would you apply that to those who reviewed FFXIII and gave it glowing reviews? Or just to the negative ones. I based my opinion on FFXIII not just on what I've played of it, but also in comparison with the other games in the series. FFXIII failed to get me interested in it enough to finish it, whereas the other FF's were able to do so. I won't go into details regarding what I (personal opinion here) consider to be flaws in FFXIII, as not only have I posted them earlier in this thread (Look for the posts yourselves, I'm not going to provide the links) but I have also added a link to a review by Zero Punctuation, which I happen to agree with completely (A rarity for me to agree with anything in a review from any game magazine/website).

This last part is not directed solely at you either Almir, but to anyone else who may have something to say in glowing terms for FFXIII. We are all entitled to our own opinions, who are you to criticize a person for having a objecting opinion to your own or others?

Now that this thread has been derailed enough, it's time it was returned back to the topic at hand.

Looks like I've missed a couple of stuff...

In addition to the Lightning/Cloud Comparison...

Maybe the original Cloud conceived by Sakaguchi and Nomura was one thing.

But people did forgot what S-E did to that character with the rest of the compliation. So that's another point to take in consideration when it comes to compare these both characters.

Maybe S-E is referencing as Lightining having the essence of the Cloud developed through all the compilation, not just the original title.

Not necesarily a female reversion, but a female character that captures that same essence.

Anyway, if you want carry on with the discussion go on. But I just wanted to add these things to take in consideration while developing your opinions people.

And to the recent Incident... Just WTF?. I'm going to defend Revan here again, because the "plucked out of your head" comment was unrequited for the discussion.

I think they definately set out to try and recapture some of the spirit of FF7. Strong and silent hero, fast opening (with a train as well), rebel group against a tyrannical organisation that is nevertheless beloved by the people at large etc etc.

But that's just a jumping off point - where the story and characters developed after that initial concept is unique to FF13. It isn't just a slavishly word for word, scene for scene, character for character copy. I think they just tried to identify some of the key things that drew people to FF7's story and atmosphere, and tried to tap into that where they could.

And at the risk of simply repeating what I said about completing the game, for this specific issue (comparisons of Cloud and Lightning), you don't need to play the whole game, because Lightning's character is 'finished' in terms of her character development by the mid point. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, or that she doesn 't do anything later on, just that you have all you need to know to understand who the character is and what she is like by that point.

Her involvement in the later chapters sees her become the party's Sergeant Major. She doesn't really make the decisions on what they should do (Snow and Hope handle that), her role being more to just keep the party moving along once the decision about what to do next has been made. She keeps them focused on the task at hand, and leads the charge into combat.

So she goes from being a loner on a kind of death wish kamikaze run, to regaining her former status as a professional soldier. But like I say, that transformation is complete by the start of the Palamecia, really.

I would just like to say a few words to explain and settle this 'incident'.


Firstly Almir, being a smart alec isn't going to endear yourself to anyone.

To quote your own words Revan:


If I wanted to be defensive, crude or downright offensive in my posts etc about this, I'd do more than what I've done so far.


As for why I said this:


pluck that randomly from your head?

It was in response to the many times that people complain or make statements about games without backing it up with facts or stating what they would find to be a better alternative to what they perceive to be the problem.
In terms of the statement being insulting: I would say that you are being sensitive. It isn't what one would call majorly offensive. It certainly doesn't warrent that much fuss. I've seen other people here say much worse than that and get away with it.

If you have any more problems with what I've said/ what I may say in the future, just PM me instead of derailing a topic.

You've said what you had to say and I've had mine. As far as I'm concerned, this 'recent incident' is at a close.


Now for a small observation.


So, would you apply that to those who reviewed FFXIII and gave it glowing reviews?

Darkest Gunblade's point was this:


My advice: play FF13...to the end...and then you can draw your conclusions after that.

If you give something a glowing review then that would generally imply that you like it? If you like something enough to give it a good review then why wouldn't you have FINISHED the game?

It was in response to the many times that people complain or make statements about games without backing it up with facts or stating what they would find to be a better alternative to what they perceive to be the problem.

Just because I haven't finished playing FFXIII all the way to the end, doesn't mean that my own observation and opinion of it, isn't worthwhile. Follow that logic, then all game reviewers for magazines and websites can't provide a adequate review of any game at all (Which I do tend to believe but whatever). All of my statements about why I dislike this game are from my own observations and from what I've experienced myself. Why should I play a game which I don't like, all the way to the end, just to say "Why yes, I've finished the game and I hated every minute of it?" Have better things to spend my time and money on thank you.


In terms of the statement being insulting: I would say that you are being sensitive. It isn't what one would call majorly offensive. It certainly doesn't warrent that much fuss. I've seen other people here say much worse than that and get away with it.

You've been negative to almost every one of my posts in this thread... and as a accumulative effect, has annoyed me. Hence my response so far.


If you have any more problems with what I've said/ what I may say in the future, just PM me instead of derailing a topic.

Not going to bother PMing you. Also, it wasn't just myself who derailed this thread, though I do take a share in responsibility for it doing so. You must accept some of the blame as well Almir.


You've said what you had to say and I've had mine. As far as I'm concerned, this 'recent incident' is at a close.

Fine with me.


If you give something a glowing review then that would generally imply that you like it? If you like something enough to give it a good review then why wouldn't you have FINISHED the game?

Because the majority of game reviewers don't have the time to devote to playing a game for 100% completetion due to deadlines and other games to go through. To expect one to do so, is foolish. However you are right, if a person does like a game enough to give it a 'glowing review' then they should've finished it. I doubt though that many professional reviewers (who review games for a living) have the time, energy or patience to play a game they are reviewing all the way to the end, when they undoubtedly have other commitments to attend to. On the otherhand though, if a person doesn't like the game, do you truly expect them to play it all the way to the end, hating it while they are playing and then expect them to say it's a great game? Of course not.

Everyone has their own opinion about every game/movie/book/whatever... if everyone's opinion was the same, then the world would be a boring place not worthy to be sucking air (Like what happened to the planet Miranda in Serenity). In closing this whole 'incident'... you Almir are entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine and everyone else who either responded in this thread or on this whole forum, have their own opinion and yes they are not all going to be the same. While I may disagree with your opinion (or others), that's your choice and believe it or not, I respect that. Just don't talk down to others who disagree with you.

Maybe I should put on my Rodney King outfit and say "Can't we all get along ?"
rotfl.

I agree that a person shouldn't have to play a game to completion before they can say whether they like it or not.

They can play it for a few minutes and in my opinion that's enough.

I haven't played FFXII to the end but I feel I know enough about it to say what I think about it.

shrugs.

As for FFXIII I feel it's deficient as have been the last two numbered FF games.
FFXIII is deficient because it's too linear, no towns, no npc interaction, inability for players to control multiple characters during battles, the chrystarium or whatever it's called doesn't match the traditional experience points or jobs methods used in previous games.I don't like the system FFXIII uses.

Of course if others like the game that's fine with me.I hope others respect people who like the game.Likewise I hope people who dislike it will respect those who feel differently.

smiles and walks away...

(bars his exit).

That's fine, but if future FF games restore all those utterly lifeless rural hamlets, with peaceful country music that drives you completely *insane*, then I'll be holding guys like you responsible, Wolf!

(stands aside and waves him on, fixed grin in place).


I jest of course, but seriously, whilst I accept many of the criticisms that people have of FF13 (it is indeed far too linear), the lack of towns is like manna from heaven. No talking to endless numbers of NPCs who have absolutely nothing of importance to say, but who you feel obliged to speak to, just in case they decide to give you an Ultima Blade or something...

Of course if others like the game that's fine with me.I hope others respect people who like the game.Likewise I hope people who dislike it will respect those who feel differently.

smiles and walks away...

If that doesn't diffuse the situation, nothing will. LOL.

Why should I play a game which I don't like, all the way to the end, just to say "Why yes, I've finished the game and I hated every minute of it?" Have better things to spend my time and money on thank you.

I ROFL'd :D You're all right in some regard; just have fun here, guys. We don't gotta be at each other's throats ;)

(bars his exit).

That's fine, but if future FF games restore all those utterly lifeless rural hamlets, with peaceful country music that drives you completely *insane*, then I'll be holding guys like you responsible, Wolf!

(stands aside and waves him on, fixed grin in place).


I jest of course, but seriously, whilst I accept many of the criticisms that people have of FF13 (it is indeed far too linear), the lack of towns is like manna from heaven. No talking to endless numbers of NPCs who have absolutely nothing of importance to say, but who you feel obliged to speak to, just in case they decide to give you an Ultima Blade or something...

Ok to blame me.I blame myself for a lot more important things, mistakes and failures I have made than just the status of a japanese video game series.
well lets see....

FFXIII-2 will have towns because the fans complained about a lack of towns...hmmm..and FFXIII-2 will have npcs because, again the fans complained about a lack of npcs.

I guess someone at Square decided to listen to the fans' criticisms.

The lack of towns must not have been like manna from heaven but more like anthrax arriving in letters with spore dust leaking from the corners.
rotfl...

Not worth arguing about the games.
I do feel that the FF games have deteriorated since Sakaguichi departed and since Square became Square-Enix.Whether that merely coincidence or a causal relationship kind of thing I don't know.
Maybe someone who worked for Square could give their opinion. Since I didn't/don't I am unsure what the cause is.

Let's just hope the future games are an improvement.

you Almir are entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine and everyone else who either responded in this thread or on this whole forum, have their own opinion and yes they are not all going to be the same. While I may disagree with your opinion (or others), that's your choice and believe it or not, I respect that. Just don't talk down to others who disagree with you.

I know all this. It may seem that I don't, but I do. I'm actually pretty easy going regarding other people's opinions.


You've been negative to almost every one of my posts in this thread... and as a accumulative effect, has annoyed me. Hence my response so far.

As Raven in Tekken says: It's just business. Don't take it personally.

You like KOTOR, I think it's just another pathetic spinoff. You hate FFXIII, I on the other hand thought it was good (only good- I can put things into perspective). Looking at it that way there is little wonder that we were negative to each others view points.


Not going to bother PMing you.

Oh, goodie.


You must accept some of the blame as well Almir.

Fine.


Of course if others like the game that's fine with me.I hope others respect people who like the game.Likewise I hope people who dislike it will respect those who feel differently.

smiles and walks away...

I'm cool with that. In fact I don't really mind if people disagree with my view. I just say my opinions in my way. If other people find that insulting, I apologise but I'm just putting across my view. I have no intention of disrespecting others.


Let's just hope the future games are an improvement.

It certainly wouldn't hurt.

Angry:
I think you're taking my comments much more seriously than they were intended. My comments were merely intended to show my frustration that Square might take (what I consider to be) a massively regressive step and put towns and NPCs with nothing to say, back into their games.

Don't get wrong, I'm all for NPCs that do add something - WRPGs for example, only let you talk to NPCs who have something relevant to plot, side quests, game history etc etc to say. JRPGs have often allowed you to talk to absolutely everyone, of which hardly any had anything of substance to say.

But on the subject of improvement... well, we have to agree to disagree, because as I've said, I'm fine with the recent installments.

As to Square listening to fan's complaints - well as I've said, that's how most of the mechanics and style of FF13 came about, directly contrasting the equally criticised elements of FF12. It isn't an approach that works. Fans are never a reliable or useful source of inspiration. They will never reach any consensus, but everyone will still claim that their suggestions are 'accepted by everyone who isn't stupid' as the obvious things to do.

And besides, the game sold massively, and the home audience (i.e Japanese) fans and critics both loved the game to pieces. The sequel is being made because of popular demand, so why would they feel the need to make sweeping changes? Western gamers aren't into JRPGs at the moment, so unless the game is legitimately the greatest JRPG ever, it isn't going to get much lasting traction at the moment.

Precisely - I'm not sure what you're getting at there, Aniki. What evidence do you need, beyond common sense, seeing as the fact is the games are totally different in style, tone and gameplay?

I've read a lot of articles concerning the development of FF XIII, and I don't remember anything regarding SE addressing the comments about FF XII. That is why I asked for links, otherwise I'll disregard what you call common sense as mere guess. These days I notice a lot of people making stuff up based on their guesses.


(There is also the fact that I'm absolutely hopeless with computers and couldn't post a link if my life depended on it - see my lack of an Avatar; it isn't because I don't believe in them...)

You were able to join this forum going through all that registration and account activation, but you don't know how to post a link?...Funny.

Every time you press reply or reply with quote you should see this icon http://www.calvarychapelonline.com/images/hyperlinkIcon.gif above the text you input. Press it and a pop up will show up asking you to enter the the URL. All you gotta do is go to the web page which link you want to add to your post copy it's link and paste it there.

No, I honestly don't know how to post links. Go back through my posts and show me one instance where I have ever used a link, or used that feature where you can quote people's words (as you just did), or posted a picture in my post or signature, or have ever had an Avatar.

I know next to nothing of how PCs or any other console works. I am content just to use them, I don't care about how they actually work. So long as I know enough to do what I want to do on them, that's good enough for me.


And not this again... just look at the evidence! If they weren't addressing fan and critic's concerns about FF12, it's one hell of a coincidence that FF13 does the exact opposite to FF12 in every single department! To go from the most free roaming FF in years (if indeed its not in fact the most free roaming full stop), to the most linear is a leap from one end of the spectrum to the other.

You call it guesswork, I call it analysis of the available facts. I prefer to make my own appraisal of what is going on in a game and how it works, rather than have dubiously qualified magazine hacks and disengenous developers do it for me. I have a background in critical analysis of literature, film, television and theatre. Video games are a newer art form, but they are no different IMO.

Its common knowledge that the Japs are struggling against the West in all forms of games at the moment. The old joke they used to make was 'All games made in the West are s**t.' But they aren't saying that now, not because they necessarily have any more respect for our games (big western franchises continue to perform poorly in Japan), but because their products no longer sell in Europe and the US, at least not in the volume they used to, and not to the critical raves they used to get.

So they're trying harder to appeal to the west in their games now, but their understanding of what we like in our games and how we like them to look, is very dodgy (just as we look at the hardcore Jap games and think 'What on *Earth* is all this?' I still think that Square is by far the most forward looking of the current JRPG producing developers, as the systems and general presentation of games by Namco, Nippon Ichi, Mistwalker etc are all looking well out of date IMO.

Look, I trust my abilities as a critical thinker, and I don't feel I need industry experts putting similar thoughts down in black and white to 'vindicate' me. But people all have their own opinions, so I happily listen to them and respect their right to hold them (and if they say something I agree with, especially if I hadn't thought of it, I say so).


Oh, I just noticed you included how to post links in your post (my eyes must have temporarily blinded me earlier, out of terror at how technical it all looked). But cheers for that anyway, I'll make it into this century one day...

I know all this. It my seem that I don't, but I do. I'm actually pretty easy going regarding other people's opinions.

... and yet you were readily against my own opinon.


As Raven in Tekken says: It's just business. Don't take it personally.

When someone references my posts or refers to something I say, I do take it personally, especially if the person in question is either quoting me out of text or having shots at me. Guess I'm just funny that way.


You like KOTOR, I think it's just another pathetic spinoff. You hate FFXIII, I on the other hand thought it was good (only good- I can put things into perspective). Looking at it that way there is little wonder that we were negative to each others view points.

I don't consider KotOR a spinoff in similar comparison to say... the Compilation of FFVII/Ivalice Collection etc. KotOR was a original idea set far apart (chronologically speaking) from the era in Star Wars everyone knows. X-Wing, TIE Fighter, Dark Forces etc are spinoffs... as they are set during the same time period and/or have the same characters in them. KotOR isn't set in the same time period as Luke, Leia, Vader or the others and has a original cast of characters.

Look at the scores between the two of them as well...

Computer and Video Games gave KotOR 9.0/10, whereas they gave FFXIII 9.2/10. Eurogamer gave KotOR 9/10 and for FFXIII 8/10. IGN gave KotOR 9.5/10 and FFXIII 8.9/10. On sites like Gamerankings and Metacritic gave both a slightly different score... Gamerankings gave KotOR 93.25%, FFXIII 85.17% for PS3 and 82.18% for Xbox 360. Metacritic, KotOR 93/100 for PC and 94/100 for Xbox, and for FFXIII 83/100 for PS3 and 82/100 for Xbox 360. Now, granted I don't pay much attention to 'official' reviews... I tend to listen more to either other gamers or friends who've played the game (whether to 100% completion or not).

KotOR has seen success as the game of the year from many sources including IGN, Computer Gaming World, PC Gamer, GMR Magazine, The Game Developers Choice Awards, Xbox Magazine, and G4. According to the review aggregator Metacritic the PC version received an average score of 93 based on 33 reviews. Interactive Achievement Awards awarded it for Best Story and Best Character Development. IGN gave KotOR additional awards in Best Sound (Xbox category), Best Story (PC category), Xbox RPG Game of the Year 2003, PC RPG Game of the Year 2003, Xbox Game of the Year 2003, PC Game of the Year 2003, and Overall Game of the Year 2003 across all platforms. In 2007, IGN listed it at #27 on its list of the Top 100 Games of All-Time. In 2010, IGN placed the game at #3 on its Best games of the Decade (2000–2009), beaten by Shadow of the Colossus and Half Life 2.

At the 2004 Game Developers Choice Awards, HK-47 won the category of "Original Game Character of the Year". In 2007, the plot twist in KotOR was ranked number two in Game Informer's list of the top ten video game plot twists of all time and number 10 on Screwattack's "Top 10 OMGWTF Moments". The game is also part of The Xbox Platinum Series/Classics for sales in excess of 1 million units. The Los Angeles Times listed Knights of the Old Republic as one of the most influential works of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. In 2010, Game Informer named the game the 54th best game on their Top 200 Games of All Time list.

FFXIII meanwhile has received only one award nomination for best RPG of the year award nomination at the Spike Video Game Awards. Don't get me wrong, FFXIII has received praise for it's battle system, the pre rendered animation and soundtrack. However, the negatives towards FFXIII, far outweigh it's positives. The linear nature of the game, especially in the first ten chapters on Cocoon, an issue which many felt was compounded by the large reduction of towns and interaction with non-player characters. Edge magazine (known for their editorial stances, industry contacts, yearly awards etc) gave FFXIII a score of 5/10, primarily due to it's linear nature.

For sources about the above, go check out wikipedia for confirmation.


Oh, goodie.

Sarcasm... the last resort of the weak minded.

KOTOR is a PATHETIC SPINOFF???? What fucking rock have I been under since 2006. Btw Revan way to go on actually using facts rather than opinion.

KOTOR is a game that is best compared to FF7 rather than FF13, because it was a title that opened up its genre to a whole new generation of fans. For many people (particularly those whose rarely use PCs for gaming), KOTOR is probably the first WRPG they played, or at least the first one they really liked.

It was accesible enough to attract big audiences, made good use of the much beloved Star Wars franchise, and was complex enough to not instantly alienate the hardcore PC crowd. Good story and voice acting was the icing on the cake. And FF7 was similarly a breakout title for JRPGs.

The difference years on, is that the format of KOTOR (or WRPG's in general) is still considered viable. JRPGs have not weathered so well, so whilst FF13 may be a good JRPG, but it is still, when you get right down to it, a JRPG, and they are not popular now. WRPGs meanwhile have only increased in popularity.

Both KOTOR and FF7 are held in high regard by their respective fans and by critics in general. FF13 is not a breakout title, and in that regard, it can be compared to titles like Jade Empire and Dragon Age 2 - titles that if critics are pressed, they will concede there are merits to, but which they don't really have that much interest in.

Sarcasm... the last resort of the weak minded.

It was a movie quote. You'll have to excuse me, I am prone to such flights of fancy. The situation seemed to fit the quotation like a glove.

Your impressive display of knowledge concerning KOTOR was indeed inspiring, however I wasn't really that interested enough to read through it all. Please forgive me but I'm sure that you understand, having the same opinion on FFXIII as I do on KOTOR.


... and yet you were readily against my own opinon.


Readily is not how I would describe it. It just turns out that I disagree with your opinions. It happens. I wouldn't waste my time directly attacking everything you say. That's why I said "Don't take it personally". I've nothing against you as a person (how could I? I don't even know you) or even your manner, I merely disagree with your sentiment. I apologise if this frustrates you but it just seems to be the case.


KOTOR is a PATHETIC SPINOFF????

From my point of view. I've never played such drivel in my life. However, it does have some redeeming factors:
- It's a good cure for insomnia
- If ever one gets bored of losing in Tekken, they would only have to think of KOTOR and find a new well of resolve to keep their Tekken fighters kicking. They would do anything rather than go back to such monotony.
- It helps actors dramatise a tragedy. One would only have to think of this game to bring tears to their eyes.

What was George Lucas thinking, letting this thing be released? Personally, I think he's gone barmy.

Let me reassure you, I wasn't being a smart alec just then, I was just expressing my views in my own way. I'm sure we all have our own idiosyncrasies.


titles that if critics are pressed, they will concede there are merits to, but which they don't really have that much interest in.

I would conceed to this point for both FFXIII and KOTOR. I would never see KOTOR in the same way as the FF series. They can't even begin to be compared to each other. They belong to two different genres, that would be akin to oil and water. It would be futile to even begin hashing out this line of argument.


Both KOTOR and FF7 are held in high regard by their respective fans and by critics in general.

Agreed, but science fiction and fantasy games are approached in a vastly different almost opposing manner.

I'm not comparing the games themselves, I'm comparing their status as breakout titles, both to fans and to critics.

Comparing scores of games that came out so far apart is rarely helpful. Games are never scored on merit alone at the best of times, with all kinds of other considerations beyond the ones I've already mentioned going into the mix (such as how much does the reviewer like the genre, the need to pander to their reader's predjudicies, the need to ingratiate themselves to important developers etc etc).

That being said, I have no doubt that if you pressed them for an answer, most western critics would say even now, that either they preferred KOTOR or had no preference because they just don't care about RPGs. Whereas most (if not all) eastern critics would say they preferred FF13 and probably had no opinion at all about KOTOR (because its a western game and as I mentioned before, their stock response is that all western games are s**t).

I wasn't going to bother responding to your post... until I read the following and felt the need to do so. I will offer a counterpoint to each of yours.


From my point of view. I've never played such drivel in my life.

That's your opinion, and a lot of people (myself included disagree with it) but it is indeed your own opinion. I've played your 'oh so vaunted' Tekken, and yet, I've gotten far more enjoyment out of playing Kessen II (Which does a poor retelling of the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which was based on actual events) than Tekken.


- It's a good cure for insomnia

I disagree quite vehemently with this, as the story itself is quite good. It has ties to the Sith War of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-droma's (set 50 years prior to the game) and introduces a new protaganist and his journey to not just redemption, but eventual return to the Unknown Regions to fight what he originally set out to do when he chose to fall to the Dark Side. Add in his capable general, The Exile, from KotORII TSL following him.... is typical scifi/Star Wars fare. Lays the groundwork for The Old Republic MMO slated for release early next year.


- If ever one gets bored of losing in Tekken, they would only have to think of KOTOR and find a new well of resolve to keep their Tekken fighters kicking. They would do anything rather than go back to such monotony.

Again with Tekken? Meh, Dynasty Warriors is superior. At least DW has a story (Based on the afforementioned novel written by Luo Guanzhong), being based on the Civil War in Ancient China circa 170AD - 280AD.


- It helps actors dramatise a tragedy. One would only have to think of this game to bring tears to their eyes.

KotOR's story, tale of one's redemption and coming to terms with their past, is a tragedy. However, it's stereotypical of the Star Wars storyline... and if it works, it works.


What was George Lucas thinking, letting this thing be released? Personally, I think he's gone barmy.

George Lucas lost the plot with Star Wars The Force Unleashed I and II... making them canon with the series is something I personally can not understand. KotOR on the otherhand, was a different change of pace. Set in a different time period, with different characters etc... allows more free reign in making a story. Not much is truly known of the Old Republic era, only bits and pieces here and there, so instead of making a game with Luke and Co. in their time frame where one would have to follow guidelines etc for how to have them (Look at Star Wars Jedi Academy... set after Luke's Jedi Academy is up and running, with Luke, Kyle Katarn, Wedge Antilles and even Chewbacca running around). With KotOR, BioWare was allowed to create a fresh chapter (With reference to The Sith War, thanks to Jolee Bindo talking about Nomi Sunrider and others) to add to the Old Republic era and they succeeded. With the upcoming MMO, The Old Republic, there is a vested interest in this era of Star Wars history not just by BioWare/Lucasarts, but also many fans of Star Wars/sci fi in general.


Let me reassure you, I wasn't being a smart alec just then, I was just expressing my views in my own way. I'm sure we all have our own idiosyncrasies.

True enough. My view is that KotOR IS a good game and is deserving of the praise it has received. FFXIII has only been praised for it's graphics (which do not make a game in itself), battle system which is flawed (Having no control over your party, only the party leader and if they die it's game over. I prefer being able to set my party up how I want and have them do exactly what I say via the traditional battle system from earlier FF's) and the mediocre soundtrack (which fails when compared to earlier FF soundtracks). The characters, to me, are not memorable whatsoever and I'm unable to form any attachment to them whatsoever. At least KotOR's cast were a well balanced cast, with a great soundtrack.


I would conceed to this point for both FFXIII and KOTOR. I would never see KOTOR in the same way as the FF series. They can't even begin to be compared to each other. They belong to two different genres, that would be akin to oil and water. It would be futile to even begin hashing out this line of argument.

... yet you compare KotOR and Tekken together.... KotOR and FFXIII are both RPG's. Only difference being KotOR is a Action RPG/WRPG, wheras XIII is a JRPG. At the core, they are fundamentally the same though, just like every other RPG (whether WRPG or JRPG).

yet you compare KotOR and Tekken together....

Actually I didn't, not really, I was only using Tekken as a reference to what game I personally would become bored continuously losing in (I'm sure other can identify), but I'll let that slide.


Again with Tekken? Meh, Dynasty Warriors is superior. At least DW has a story (Based on the afforementioned novel written by Luo Guanzhong), being based on the Civil War in Ancient China circa 170AD - 280AD.


Tekken has a story too. It even has a movie. Where as DW may be better (I wouldn't know as I haven't played it) it isn't because it has a story.


I've played your 'oh so vaunted' Tekken,

Oh so vaunted, did I say or imply that?

Which one?

Not to be rude but out of consideration for the administrators, moderators and other users I will not respond any more on this topic on this thread. This thread has now been twisted beyond recognition due to our discussion and I feel that it is past time that we returned to the matter at hand.


I'm not comparing the games themselves, I'm comparing their status as breakout titles, both to fans and to critics.

My apologies, I misunderstood. For what it's worth I agree with your sentiment.

Ok im getting this thread back on track, so basically they stuck with a somewhat faster combat system (like x-2?), removed NPC interaction (no towns right?), based the main character on cloud, made it as linear as COD, and just played it safe generally?

How is removing towns and NPCs, (which was sure to upset hardcore JRPG fans), and treating the combat system as something that is just as important as the story and characters, 'playing it safe'?

That's 'taking a chance' in anyone's books, surely? Even the critics who were most critical of this game still had to hold their hands up and applaud Square for trying something new.

And from what you say, it appears you haven't played the game *at all*, yet you're making statements about it? Well, that's a bit far even for me to let slide. You should at least have played some of it!

I'm sorry if this seems to be getting us back on the wrong track again, but I just don't see how we can have constructive debates about this game under these kinds of circumstances. You don't have to play all of it, as a game's inability to grip to the end is a talking point in and of itself. But like I say, if you haven't actually played any of it, then how can you have any but the most general of speculations about it?

Um yeah I know I havent played the damn thing yet, im just trying to get the consesus around here. Notice the question mark so dont flame on me for asking.

---------- Post added 07-13-2011 at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-12-2011 at 11:56 PM ----------

I should have said the combat system was playing it safe, so my bad on that. I wasnt really proofreading.

That's fine, but my point was that I don't think anyone here (or anywhere at all, at least that I've seen), accused the game of playing it safe. That's the one thing it definately doesn't do!

Your statement is still wildly inaccurate even if you only apply it to the combat system. The combat is by far the thing that the critics liked the best about the game, and is significantly more engaging from my personal perspective, than the vast majority of JRPGs from recent times. Only Star Ocean has better JRPG combat IMO.

Again, the opinions of western gamers who are out of love with JRPGs to start with, is not a good place to try and find truth. Eastern fans and critics from East and West all loved the combat. But the combat is something you must play the majority of the game to fully appreciate, because the system doesn't fully open up until the last third of the game.

That is a problem by itself, as the game should never have made gamers wait that long for free roaming, party select, access to all paradigms for all squad members etc etc. But almost without exception, those later levels have been praised by the gamers who did stick it out, as being worth the wait and by far the most enjoyable areas of the game.

The game makes lots of very awkward artistic decisions that make it inaccesible in the extreme until these late stages. It is the very defjnition of a game that is not playing it safe.

Again, I'm not trying to have a go, I'm really not. Its just frustrating to see people with (IMO) a skewed understanding of what this game is like, because they either haven't played it at all, or haven't played enough of it to reach the sections where it all clicks into place (the 'sweet spot' of the game as Edge magazine put it).

I had my mind in the extremes at the time so im talking about like not using FF12 style battles, Keeping the battle system fairly in-line with most of the series in my kinda werid opinion but I get what your saying and I respect the fact you wanted this thread to get back on track, Thats why I didnt post some ultra-inflammatory remark like this game sucks balls or something of that nature.

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

I never even said the game was bad, I was just trying to break it down. I actually like what I have seen with combat so after I play LA Noire and send it back I will be finding out for myself and come back then. Oh and btw im trying to go in spoiler free but what do you mean awkward artistic choice. Just PM me please so I can stop making an ass out of myself lol.

I'm PM you about it tomorrow (very tired now!).

I just wanted to clarify something - my issue with what you were saying is that 'Playing it Safe' sounds really, really bad. Its one of the sternest criticisms you can make about any game IMO, so I hope understand why I'm so keen to follow up on that point. Because I honestly don't think it applies, and whilst there are many valid criticisms to be made about this game, charging it with playing things safe, is very unfair and very damaging any game's image.

Because it makes it sound like the developers just cranked out yet another JRPG, and for better or worse, this is one of the most unique JRPGs in years and years.

Angry:
I think you're taking my comments much more seriously than they were intended. My comments were merely intended to show my frustration that Square might take (what I consider to be) a massively regressive step and put towns and NPCs with nothing to say, back into their games.

Don't get wrong, I'm all for NPCs that do add something - WRPGs for example, only let you talk to NPCs who have something relevant to plot, side quests, game history etc etc to say. JRPGs have often allowed you to talk to absolutely everyone, of which hardly any had anything of substance to say.

But on the subject of improvement... well, we have to agree to disagree, because as I've said, I'm fine with the recent installments.

As to Square listening to fan's complaints - well as I've said, that's how most of the mechanics and style of FF13 came about, directly contrasting the equally criticised elements of FF12. It isn't an approach that works. Fans are never a reliable or useful source of inspiration. They will never reach any consensus, but everyone will still claim that their suggestions are 'accepted by everyone who isn't stupid' as the obvious things to do.

And besides, the game sold massively, and the home audience (i.e Japanese) fans and critics both loved the game to pieces. The sequel is being made because of popular demand, so why would they feel the need to make sweeping changes? Western gamers aren't into JRPGs at the moment, so unless the game is legitimately the greatest JRPG ever, it isn't going to get much lasting traction at the moment.

No offense intended.
Obviously Square realized they needed to make some changes otherwise why make any changes in FFXIII-2 ?
They must be trying to appeal to someone and if the Japanese gamers are content with FF I assume gamers elsewhere aren't and they are trying to appeal to those gamers while still of course keeping their Japanese fanbase.
I expect I will buy the game.I expect those improvements will be enough to make me like it more than FFXIII although I still don't like the button mashing.

Well, they always make some changes, don't they? FF always uses different systems, even when fans like a given system. And you've always got to make some changes, or the game will just be ripped to bits by critics as being the same game with a new story spray-painted on.

To be fair though, the FF7 and onwards games are all by diifferent directors and producers. They all have their own styles and tones, for what certain systems may be too fast or too slow paced for what they have in mind. I think FF13-2 is using the same director though, so it'll be intersting to see exactly how he goes about it.

And button mashing? The system doesn't require you to mash any button, one press of the relevant button and away you go. Button mashing is something like Jade Empire or Dragon Age 2.

Besides which, I love me a good button basher. Give me a steady stream of rubbishy (but dirt cheap) action games, and I'm a happy man. All that AAA game gloss and polish gets so sickly, you can't beat a bit of honest to goodness scummy gaming!

And no, I'm not saying FF13 is that! :D

And not this again... just look at the evidence! If they weren't addressing fan and critic's concerns about FF12, it's one hell of a coincidence that FF13 does the exact opposite to FF12 in every single department! To go from the most free roaming FF in years (if indeed its not in fact the most free roaming full stop), to the most linear is a leap from one end of the spectrum to the other.


It's true that FF XIII and FF XII differ as night and day, but it doesn't prove that all the changes in FF XIII are the product of SE addressing the fan complaints about FF XII. Again, it's simply your guess and it's no different than, for instance, me saying that the reason that FF XIII is linear simply because it was developed by the same team that also developed FF X, which was also very linear.

Well, it doesn't disprove it either, does it? There's only so many times a man can put IMO into his posts. I've already said that this is my appraisal of the situation, what more do you want?

The same director as did FF13 was behind FF12: Revenant Wings and FFX-2, both of which are extremely non-linear, seeing as how you can try missions in pretty much any order, go wherever you like (you get the airship on the second level in RW, and the full world map is available almost immediately in FFX-2). There are different endings in that game, different ways scenarios can play based on what you did - all absolutely non linear.

So whilst I have no confession letter signed in blood from the team, I'd submit that the director's past work would not prepare you for how linear FF13 is. Ergo, my belief (rightly or wrongly) that they were reacting to what was at the time, very strong criticism (from the fans at least), about FF12 style and systems.

Short of going to Japan and dragging the guy here to testify one way or the other, I'm not sure what else I can do. I mean, I suppose I could do that. Hold on, just let me check the flight times...

Stun gun - check, rope - check, japanese dictionary - check, interrogation flashlight - check...

If I'm not back in a week, call the British Embassy.

FFXIII, what can I say about it. I thought it was okay, and I didn't really hate much of it. However, the world it takes place in feels bleak and lifeless, like the aftermath of an apocalypse. One reason I like Final Fantasy is because the worlds Square creates are usually bright and fantastic, but not really in this case. As for the characters, the only ones I had a problem with were Vanille for being annoying and Sazh for being the token black dude. I'm not being racist or anything, it's just it seems like he only exists so people don't accuse Square of being racist. The gameplay was over-complicated, mainly the combat system. All this nonsense about paradigms and ability orders and everything.. What was wrong with simply choosing "attack", "magic", or "item"? Fuck all that extra shit. The levels in FFXIII are too linear as well. You can't just go wherever you want, you can only go from point A to point B with several cutscenes in between. While playing, I sometimes wondered if I was playing a game or just watching a video of a game.

Long time no see, Harkus.

Yeah I know. Haven't been playing much FF lately and ended up drifting from this board. Plus I've been busy.

"Why do so many people hate this game???" I don't, I've played quite a few different FF games (only my memory card formatted so now I have to play all the way through 10, 10-2 and 12 all over again -_-) and I only just started playing FF13 recently. I think I got used to FF12 (and before that FF10 and 10-2) because I found a lot of the new systems hard to understand at first - but I do like the storyline, the characters and the game itself. The only thing I miss is randomly wandering about without any idea where I am (what I did in previous games) and then randomly walking into a monster/battle... and then randomly dying....Or randomly ending up in some strange place... (I'm a random person...)

The other FF games I've played are PS1 versions of FF4,5, and 7, and I sadly never completed them. :( But I plan on getting through the rest of 13, and as far as I know, not everyone hates 13 at all, one of my friends loved it to bits and recommended me to play it.

*Yay that was my first post horay!*

FF13 is a lot less painless than the random battles of FF4(sandworm encounters of ff4 that 1 shot you is pretty terrible memory) which makes it understandable that you liked playing FF13 more than FF4. Also, unless you're playing the DS 3d remake of FF4, the graphics can be hard on the eyes especially if you're getting into Final Fantasy. So I understand that you like ff13, but if they were both books, you'd read one and call another garbage. Sadly they're games and people of this generation of consoles and gaming want instant action/pretty graphics over decent stories.

...well, whether a game (be it Final Fantasy or other) has a good story or not depends on personal taste, yes some stories have obvious flaws or bad writing, but you can enjoy a story and have someone else hate that same story.

I got something to complain about on FFXIII:

Full recovery of hp/mp after battle.

This is seriously overpowered.

In the old games,you had to think ahead and bring potions and be prepared.

In FFXIII,you just run through mindlessly killing anything that gets in your way not even considering if you may need anti poison or resist vs mute or stuff like that.

I remember dying in FF1 on the nes because i didn't bring any pures when i was exploring the cave where you get the crown to figth astos.

Now Final Fantasy, that was a hard game.

XIII is like adding 2+2 in comparison.

I can understand healing after saving but no matter the game healing after a battle? That would have saved my ass many a time in Diablo II.

I remember dying in FF1 on the nes because i didn't bring any pures when i was exploring the cave where you get the crown to figth astos.

...and that was good was it...?

That was a gameplay flaw, not that I'm implying that healing after every battle is good, but loosing on the original FF because you had no way to know the enemies on the next dungeon used poison and had no way to get enough antidotes on said dungeon was frustrating.

There was no "real" strategy on the original FF anymore than on FFXIII, the way to beat it was to level up a lot, or retry a lot, since you could get lucky and have the dungeon "boss" forgeting to use his most powerful attack.

...and that was good was it...?

That was a gameplay flaw, not that I'm implying that healing after every battle is good, but loosing on the original FF because you had no way to know the enemies on the next dungeon used poison and had no way to get enough antidotes on said dungeon was frustrating.

Speaking as a veteran RPG player, no matter what system, I always made sure I carried enough medicine (whether Potions, Phoenix Downs, Antidotes etc) I could carry. Made sense (and still does) to ensure you have a healthy supply of assorted medicine in your inventory, no matter what level you are etc. Common sense really.


There was no "real" strategy on the original FF anymore than on FFXIII, the way to beat it was to level up a lot, or retry a lot, since you could get lucky and have the dungeon "boss" forgeting to use his most powerful attack.

Spending time leveling up your characters, while time consuming, does increase your chances of surviving what comes next. For example, in FFVIII, soon as I could get to the Islands closest to Heaven/Hell, I spent time leveling up there (same as in Breath of Fire II for example. Soon as you get the Whale, went straight to the northern most island and spent time killing mobs there). Once again... common sense.

But then...

[QUOTE=Darth Revan;1762915]

Spending time leveling up your characters, while time consuming, does increase your chances of surviving what comes next. For example, in FFVIII, soon as I could get to the Islands closest to Heaven/Hell, I spent time leveling up there (same as in Breath of Fire II for example. Soon as you get the Whale, went straight to the northern most island and spent time killing mobs there). Once again... common sense.



Thank you,you made my point for me.

Using antidotes out of battle,or something adds strategy and makes you think ahead instead of just rushing through.

The only reason to have potions is for inside battles and when they are particularly tough,and even then i never really used them because i could heal just fine.

For most of the part:FFXIII was unbalanced in difficulty,going towards ridiculously easy most of the time.

The adamantoise doesn't count since you are supposed to be prepared to fight them.

:objection:


Common sense really.

I don't really follow where you are trying to get with this.

Come on! Really, as if you were always a "veteran RPG player", I lost on FF as Nostalgia gamer did, you know it was hard to get enough money to buy supllies on the original FF, you're just bragging.

My point is that I can't see what's so great about loosing a lot on a game, so you beat FFXIII and rarely get to see a game over and that's bad? Why? I can't understand that, it' not like it's ridiculously easy. Take the MegaTen games per example, hardcore console RPG's, it's not fun at all to get to a boss and find out you'll have to grind for 2 hours or get a specific character/demon with specific skills to beat it.

I'm also experient in RPG's (both console and PC) and I hate grinding (although I do it when I have to), the way I see it overleveling removes whatever kind of strategy you may use in combat, I always try to beat RPG's with the lowest level possible, that forces me to be resourceful.

...leveling in FFVIII makes no sense, the enemies level up with you, all I needed were 100 high level magics (ultima, flare, holy) for each character (for ATK and HP) and I was ready to go. As for BoF2, yeah, tough grinding :(

I agree that in FFXIII you didn't need to plan ahead in terms of items, hell I only remember using them in the early stages. But the paradigms had to be changed around a lot on most dungeons and bosses. FFXIII wasn't hard, but it wasn't that easy! I also didn't use the auto-battle, they should have removed that option, that would have forced a lot of people to actually "think" in battle.

Common sense is not so common. Just like Voltaire once said.

:objection:



I don't really follow where you are trying to get with this.

Come on! Really, as if you were always a "veteran RPG player", I lost on FF as Nostalgia gamer did, you know it was hard to get enough money to buy supllies on the original FF, you're just bragging.

Well iddalai there are other RPG's available besides the FF series. Even when I first started playing computer RPG's on my old 386 PC (The game was Dark Knights of Krynn by SSI), I knew to always be prepared and had a good supply of medicine/curatives in my party inventory at any one time/or had a healer with the right spell lists. I say 'veteran RPG player', as I used to play the old AD&D roleplaying games in high school... and knew to always be prepared.

Yes it was hard to get money, but not impossible. Stop griping.


My point is that I can't see what's so great about loosing a lot on a game, so you beat FFXIII and rarely get to see a game over and that's bad? Why? I can't understand that, it' not like it's ridiculously easy. Take the MegaTen games per example, hardcore console RPG's, it's not fun at all to get to a boss and find out you'll have to grind for 2 hours or get a specific character/demon with specific skills to beat it.

FFXIII was just terrible as a game. I've stated that too many times in this thread, and won't go into detail again. The MegaTen games, while they were good, I couldn't get into them, so I can't comment much on them. Besides, it makes sense to level up your characters as earlier RPG's didn't have the mobs level up with you per se, like they do in current games.


I'm also experient in RPG's (both console and PC) and I hate grinding (although I do it when I have to), the way I see it overleveling removes whatever kind of strategy you may use in combat, I always try to beat RPG's with the lowest level possible, that forces me to be resourceful.

That's your perogative. I hate grinding as well, yet after playing FFXI (where you HAVE to grind to get to a level where you can get anything done) I can appreciate that grinding is a requirement in every RPG and instead of people complaining about it (which in any MMO there is ALWAYS people complaining about level grinding), just STFU, and go get it done.


...leveling in FFVIII makes no sense, the enemies level up with you, all I needed were 100 high level magics (ultima, flare, holy) for each character (for ATK and HP) and I was ready to go. As for BoF2, yeah, tough grinding

Depends on the player. Speaking for myself, I leveled my squad to max level (even though the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice) for my own piece of mind.

BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though.


I agree that in FFXIII you didn't need to plan ahead in terms of items, hell I only remember using them in the early stages. But the paradigms had to be changed around a lot on most dungeons and bosses. FFXIII wasn't hard, but it wasn't that easy! I also didn't use the auto-battle, they should have removed that option, that would have forced a lot of people to actually "think" in battle.

I won't comment anymore on FFXIII, as I've said above, I've already posted my comments about that.


Common sense is not so common. Just like Voltaire once said.

True, Common sense may not be common... in some cases it's a rarity. So rare that it is a goddamn superpower.

[QUOTE=Darth Revan;1763929]Well iddalai
FFXIII was just terrible as a game. I've stated that too many times in this thread, and won't go into detail again. The MegaTen games, while they were good, I couldn't get into them, so I can't comment much on them. Besides, it makes sense to level up your characters as earlier RPG's didn't have the mobs level up with you per se, like they do in current games.



That's your perogative. I hate grinding as well


Depends on the player. Speaking for myself, I leveled my squad to max level (even though the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice) for my own piece of mind.

BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though.

1:Did you get to the overworld that is just a bunch of stupid sidequests?
The part of FFXIII where it supposedly opens up? The game becomes pretty retarded there because its just a bunch of boring sidequests.

2:Money is very hard to come by in FFXIII,my advice:collect chips from the earlier stages of the game and farm them.

I know you said you hate grinding,but this would help you get money.

3:FF8 junction system sucks.
The card game for me was much more fun than the actual shitty junction system which forces you to needlessly tedious in farming spells and grinding for hours to get ap for abilities so you can be left alone in peace.

Then the shitty card queen quest which i hate so much that i could kill the guy who made the damm thing,i've had to reset so many times that it just makes me angry thinking of it.

4:Yeah!! bof is very easy,but the series has always been really easy.
Only thing you need to worry about,is having the right fusion or you will die.

Part of what pisses me off about FFXIII is how damm boring and linear most of the dungeons are,its like:ok i want to run through that dungeon where you are in what seemed to be a huge lot full of trash and possibly car parts or some shit like that.

I was like:Ok i want to get the hell out of here,i'm bored.

O_o

It's like some kind of crazy talk!

Those last comments made no sense!

Just a few things I find out of place:

-First Darth Revan tells me there are other RPGs besides FF, when I mentioned MegaTen...
-Apparently you were born a veteran RPG player, wonder what other kinds of super powers you MUST have (besides the almighty common sense...), must be really hard to admit you once didn't now how to play RPGs, even in pen and paper (...which I also played, btw check out "Order Of The Stick" if you haven't already, you'll like it).
- No one answers my question of "what's so great about loosing over and over again".
- One doesn't need to play MegaTen games to know it's not fun to grind for hours to beat a boss... that's valid for all games.
- Grindind is there to add fake gameplay time, it's not a part of RPGs, if the math is correct behing the games then you'll never need to grind (i.e.:Lost Odyssey, Bof: Dragon Quarter).
- "the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice", but you still level them up!? Everytime I prick myself with a needle it hurts and bleeds, but I'll keep on doing it anyway. That's your prerogative.
- "BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though." You already mentiond the giant monster island back there, any other reason to try and imply you're part of that group that "knows" where to level up? Even with that sweet spot it was still tough grinding. I spent hours there, it was not fun.
- Sorry for try and make you comment on FFXIII, after all it's not like it's the topic here... Making comments on the game and then refusing to comment again goes against common sense, people back up their views to explain it to others, it's only natural. I understand you're tired of repeating yourself, well so am I.
- Then Nostalgia gamer mentions how to get money on FFXIII, when I was talking about getting money on the original FF.
- ...and goes on to say that "Yeah!! bof is very easy" when no one said that! And concludes by stating that you only need the right fusion, which makes no sense, either you're mixing MegaTen with BoF or you are thinking BoF 3, which used a different dragon system then the others, and no one talked about BoF 3 btw.



Shit bat crazy!

I quit people, really, I won't make any other comments, not when the replies make no (common) sense.

Have fun.

Then Nostalgia gamer mentions how to get money on FFXIII, when I was talking about getting money on the original FF.
- ...and goes on to say that "Yeah!! bof is very easy" when no one said that! And concludes by stating that you only need the right fusion, which makes no sense, either you're mixing MegaTen with BoF or you are thinking BoF 3, which used a different dragon system then the others, and no one talked about BoF 3 btw.

I was giving advice on grinding for money and or xp as well to make FFXIII easier.

and the whole post was an answer to bof2 not bof3.

In bof2 you can lvl up to max lvl and still die in the final dungeon because the enemies cast death spell which insta kills you and have quite strong spells.

If you don't have the right fusions on bow and nina,it will be annoying.

And the FF8 answer obviously was towards the stupid fucking junction system.

Then I say this sounds like a damned RPG slapfight lol.

O_o

It's like some kind of crazy talk!

Those last comments made no sense!

Because they don't concur with what you have stated? w/e

Just a few things I find out of place:


-First Darth Revan tells me there are other RPGs besides FF, when I mentioned MegaTen...

I posted that in response to what was said in the quote box I quoted from you, iddalai. You mentioned MegaTen towards the end of the post, to which I addressed in that post.


-Apparently you were born a veteran RPG player, wonder what other kinds of super powers you MUST have (besides the almighty common sense...), must be really hard to admit you once didn't now how to play RPGs, even in pen and paper (...which I also played, btw check out "Order Of The Stick" if you haven't already, you'll like it).

I never said that I never knew how to play RPG's,even in pen and paper. You made that assumption on your own. I would state that NOW, I AM a veteran RPG player, after playing numerous RPG's over the years. When I first started playing though, just like anyone would be with anything they start for the first time, I made mistakes etc. HOWEVER, even as a fledgling RPG player, it makes sense to have a healthy supply of medicine/restoratives in your inventory. If you think otherwise, that's your choice.


- No one answers my question of "what's so great about loosing over and over again".

Losing in a battle is annoying, I admit that. However, the next time you fight what killed you, you can try something different and hopefully win. Case in point, when I got to the final boss's lair in Dragon Age: Origins for the first time, I died in about 5 minutes. However, the second time I fought it, I did some exploring of the battlefield BEFORE attacking the Archdemon itself... and subsequently was able to defeat it with ease. I use the same approach in every other RPG I've played... Save often and use each battle as a learning experience to plan accordingly, so if my party wipes, I can reload and try something different.


- One doesn't need to play MegaTen games to know it's not fun to grind for hours to beat a boss... that's valid for all games.

Like I stated, I haven't played the MegaTen series and have no intention of doing so, so I can't comment about that series. While level grinding isn't fun, no matter if the RPG is a console RPG or MMORPG, it's a somewhat necessity to the game itself.


- Grindind is there to add fake gameplay time, it's not a part of RPGs, if the math is correct behing the games then you'll never need to grind (i.e.:Lost Odyssey, Bof: Dragon Quarter).

If you don't like it, then blame the late Gary Gygax -the Father of Advanded Dungeons & Dragons- as ALL RPG's, when you get down to their core elements, were based on his blueprint for RPG's in the first place.


- "the junction system made leveling more or less defunct in practice", but you still level them up!? Everytime I prick myself with a needle it hurts and bleeds, but I'll keep on doing it anyway. That's your prerogative.

We all play games differently. If you can't be bothered to play a game how it's supposed to be played, then go play something else and stop complaining.


- "BoFII was easy to level if you knew where to go though." You already mentiond the giant monster island back there, any other reason to try and imply you're part of that group that "knows" where to level up? Even with that sweet spot it was still tough grinding. I spent hours there, it was not fun.

BoFII was easy to level... it also was easy to get the right equipment to make grinding easier, though still challenging. I'm 'part of that group that "knows" where to level up? Jesus, anyone with a brain can find easy places to level up, which work for THEM. That northern island is perfect for leveling at level 70+ imo, but before that, there are other areas in the world map easy to level. Just have to know where to go... Every RPG has at least one area that is good for leveling at a certain level. In MMORPG's, the areas are more easily defined as to where to level up, I can list numerous areas to experience party in FFXI no matter what the level (and if you want, I can list them here if that'd make you feel better).


- Sorry for try and make you comment on FFXIII, after all it's not like it's the topic here... Making comments on the game and then refusing to comment again goes against common sense, people back up their views to explain it to others, it's only natural. I understand you're tired of repeating yourself, well so am I.

Read my earlier posts here then, regarding my opinion of Final Fantasy XIII iddalai... I will provide one post here in spoiler tabs (read the last few pages and you'll see my posts):


However, there are those who do have their own valid reasons as to why they hate this game. Myself, I tried to play it 3 times... the longest only being about 5 hours into it and I can honestly say I was bored to tears (and saying the game picks up after Chapter 11... in a 13 chapter game isn't a good thing, it's poor game design). Lacklustre characters, uninteresting plot, mediocre music and poor battle system. The lack of any NPC villages/towns like in earlier FF's irritated me as well, though that's only a minor quipe really. The opening scene was more or less ripped out of FFVII, and with the character designer being told to make a female Cloud Strife, that's exactly what we got in Lightning.

There's one review which sums up almost 100% perfectly my own opinion about this game, and here's the link:

Zero Punctuation - Final Fantasy XIII (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion it's true, so while there are people who think FFXIII is the best ever... remember, there are those who despise it (some even more than FFVII).

I will however, provide you with a link to a online review for FFXIII that I happen to agree with 110%.

Zero Punctuation: Final Fantasy XIII by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1569-Final-Fantasy-XIII)



- Then Nostalgia gamer mentions how to get money on FFXIII, when I was talking about getting money on the original FF.

Money is difficult to get in any game... what's your point?


- ...and goes on to say that "Yeah!! bof is very easy" when no one said that! And concludes by stating that you only need the right fusion, which makes no sense, either you're mixing MegaTen with BoF or you are thinking BoF 3, which used a different dragon system then the others, and no one talked about BoF 3 btw.

I'd learn to read a post fully, before making comments which in no way are a response to what was quoted. Nostalgia gamer was referring to BoF II, not BoF III or others of the series.




Shit bat crazy!

My response:




I quit people, really, I won't make any other comments, not when the replies make no (common) sense.

You won't be missed. While the replies make no common sense to you... doesn't mean they don't to others or that others may/may not agree with them.


Have fun.

Thanks, we will.

quote revan quote:
Money is difficult to get in any game... what's your point?

Money is not hard to get in a lot of games if you know how:

FF1:you can grind on giants and later on when you get the bane sword,or the thor's hammer it becomes very easy.

FF2 nes:during the half game when you get small mini and toad,the game becomes broken in how easy it becomes.

Bof:all you need,is to get to the island where you find the final tower and level outside on giant things,same as bof2.

Its really really easy.

On the other hand:FF8 isn't too hard in cash,you just make sure you don't run away.

FFXIII is more annoying than hard because you gain gil through selling stuff in this game and untill you near the open world,the game is very boring and there is almost no gameplay at all.

My point is:Gold isn't too hard to get if you know how to.
If you can't get money in games like bof 1 and 2 and ff1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 legends bof 1&2 grandia 1-3 etc etc:Then you seriously fail at rpgs.

I meant to say that 'Money CAN be difficult to get in any game'. Poor choice of words there on my part. In a MMORPG like Final Fantasy XI for example, money IS difficult to get early on... but once you've reached a high enough level, you can farm gil quite easily. When you first start in a RPG, no matter what one... initially it IS difficult to get money.

...and that was good was it...?

That was a gameplay flaw, not that I'm implying that healing after every battle is good, but loosing on the original FF because you had no way to know the enemies on the next dungeon used poison and had no way to get enough antidotes on said dungeon was frustrating.

There was no "real" strategy on the original FF anymore than on FFXIII, the way to beat it was to level up a lot, or retry a lot, since you could get lucky and have the dungeon "boss" forgeting to use his most powerful attack.

When I go trekking in the fucking Amazon, you best know that I will have every fucking known antidote to every snake in the universe before I walk in there. It's a fucking role playing game, go figure. Rest in the inn, prepare for your journey, get your antidotes, eye drops and potions, and then walk into whatever fucking cave you want. The only gameplay flaw is making me feel like I'm not even injured after fighting 10 behemoths and 300 soldiers COUGH FF13 COUGH. But whatever, my name is Lightning, I guess I can do shit like that and get away with it.

Wait, what you mean the original FFs didn't need strategy. I distinctly remember hitting the antlion with MAGIC WITH RED EYES and PHYSICAL WITH CLEAR EYES. If that's not strategy I don't know what is. :). Furthermore, if you timed your spell casts (OH YEAH IT TOOK TIME TO CAST MAGIC) wrong, a behemoth would wreck your team no matter how buff they were. In FF13 Lightning could give 2 fucks what Behemoths think. But whatever, my name is Lightning, I guess I can do shit like that and get away with it. Wait did I say that before?

What about the end boss of the tutorial? the one that ends on the tutorial is so damm cheap that it 1 hit kills you and your team.

That boss is kinda ridiculous and the point that the game doesn't actually allow you to lvl up to be stronger vs the bosses sucks balls.
I mean:do they even explain why crystarium expands? i haven't seen much of an explanation for it.

Oh and don't get me started on vanille and hope,i would take my belt out and beat that damm hope half to death if i could.
Cloud may be annoying but hope? he whines so damm much and vanille is exactly like selphie,and i can't stand selphie.

Oh yeah:did you notice similarities in characters?

Vanille is like selphie
Hope is like raiden from mgs2/4 in personality,cept he whines a lot more and is a bigger pussy.
Oh yeah:I think the only character i like so far are:Cid and Sazh.
I don't like lightning either but she doesn't bother me,she just ceases to exist since she leaves no impression on me.
Snow on the other hand:He's an idiot for digging up his crystalized girlfriend and not runninga away and allowing guards to capture him.

When I go trekking in the fucking Amazon, you best know that I will have every fucking known antidote to every snake in the universe before I walk in there. It's a fucking role playing game, go figure. Rest in the inn, prepare for your journey, get your antidotes, eye drops and potions, and then walk into whatever fucking cave you want. The only gameplay flaw is making me feel like I'm not even injured after fighting 10 behemoths and 300 soldiers COUGH FF13 COUGH. But whatever, my name is Lightning, I guess I can do shit like that and get away with it.I have this theory that l'Cie heal really quickly. I'm not sure what point you're even making here, though.


Vanille is like selphieSelphie is a ridiculous amount more professional (in a loose sense, but when it comes down to it she is), clumsiness aside. Selphie's a trained soldier and Vanille is a sugar high teenager (well... sorta) from down under.


Hope is like raiden from mgs2/4 in personality,cept he whines a lot more and is a bigger pussy.Not only is Hope like 14 years old (the golden age to whine), but Raiden had a shitload of reasons to whine to begin with. You tell me that you don't whine after repressing as much trauma as Raiden has. And Hope becomes a lot less terrified and more ballsy towards the second half of the game, so he definitely develops.


And Revan, I keep mentioning that post-chapter 11 is just as long as pre-chapter 11 and you keep ignoring that. It's not poor design, they just wanted 13 chapters so they compressed more into the last 3 chapters.

And Revan, I keep mentioning that post-chapter 11 is just as long as pre-chapter 11 and you keep ignoring that. It's not poor design, they just wanted 13 chapters so they compressed more into the last 3 chapters.

No, I'm not ignoring that. To you it may not be, but to myself and others it IS poor game design. It seems that when SE made FFXIII, they worked on the ending of the game FIRST... and the beginning LAST. Playing 11 boring ass chapters, and then left with 3 good ones is pathetic, but really what can we expect from SE now? They've shot themselves with XIV, and have recently done the same to FFXI... SE never fully recovered from the shambolic mess that was Final Fantasy The Spirits Within and they're bleeding money constantly, the longer they keep XIV FTP.

Look... if you like FFXIII in the state it's in Mercenary Raven, that's your choice. For me, it's a mess... and as I've stated earlier in this thread, I agree 100% with the review of FFXIII by Zero Punctuation's, Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, which for me to agree with any professional game reviewer is a rarity.

I think most western gamers agree that the last 3 chapters are the most satisfying to play, but finally unlocking all the gameplay options that should really have been available by at least Chapter 4 say. But that is only if you accept that the game is using a standard model, and when do Japanese writers and developers *ever* play by the rules?

They do their own thing, as they always have. The game is specifically crafted to be that way - its not that they didn't understand that they were doing it 'wrong', or that is indeed wrong for what they are trying to accomplish. It just doesn't fit with what western gamers expect and want from a modern game.

But that's part of what makes this game for me - the fact that its Jap developers making a game in a crazy, completely consumer unfriendly way, that no western developer with their rich backers armed with flow charts of consumer purchasing trends, would ever dream of doing (or be allowed to do).

The Japs don't know how to edit themselves to make sane games with clear objectives and regular pacing - and I love them for it.

The Japs don't know how to edit themselves to make sane games with clear objectives and regular pacing - and I love them for it.

I don't... XD

Insane games with non-clear objectives is something that I like because it's kind of exciting... Of course in the end it has to serve some purpose or give somekind of reward to feel good about.

But the Irregular, or let's put it this way. The SLOW pacing is not good. To ANYONE.

If anyone tells me that the game picks up after chapter 11, it doesn't speak good about the game. In any possible way, there many things that you could decipher with just that. That's why I have to be with Revan on this one.

Mystery must be exciting and gripping that it should keep you there. It musn't bore you or make you wanna quit because nothing interesting happens after 11 chapter, which that must be 20+ hours of gameplay right?

I don't own a next-gen console to play the game :P, so you tell me.

Let me make one thing very clear, because people often misunderstand this about FF13 - the story does not get better in the later Chapters. In fact, like most RPGs, the later sections of the game are just a rush to the fight against the improbably powerful godlike final bosses. All character development is largely done by then.

The later Chapters are quoted as being better, because the gameplay options are all finally unlocked, so you can choose from all the party members, assign the team leader yourself, have the full range of paradigms etc. It makes a huge difference to enjoying the gameplay.

I also refute utterly that the first 10 Chapters are either slow paced (this is one of the fatest paced FF games, if not the fastest). The game mixes story progression with constant character development very well. Its just that the gameplay doesn't keep up, because they keep such a tight rein on what you are allowed to do, who you *must* control and have in your party, where you *must* go etc.

Its not an issue of story pacing, its an issue of gameplay pacing, and the fact that the game is (by design) extremely linear until the later chapters when it becomes massively open, because its making an artistic point about confinement of an oppressive society versus freedom on the lawless world below.

Art decisions that compromise gameplay and deliberately frustrate gamers are frowned on here in the west (the lack of shops with real people and everything being done over the internet is one such example of a topical point that has been completely lost on the 'There's no Townz!' brigade over here). But for those who actually enjoy the Japs and their crazy 'Games are Art' ethos (Killer7 being a case in point - some of the best atmosphere and story ever, but some of the truly worst gameplay ever too), its a price worth paying.

Especially since the gameplay is really good IMO, when you are finally allowed to actually use it properly. Not everyone agrees, and that's fine. The only point I'm making is that this game is not badly designed - it works exactly how the developers wanted it to work. Its just that its priorities are not the ones that most western gamers have.

It values Art over Accessibility, and it doesn't compromise on that. And I can respect that, but obviously I wouldn't want all games to be like that. But lighter hearted JRPGs like the Tales series and the very much accessibility focused WRPGs of today, have me covered for when I want something else.

I thought final fantasy XIII had a amazing battle system, I do not know why ppl didnt like it that game was amazing it had a great story line good graphics and lightning was awesome so no offence ppl who didnt like this game but whats wrong with all of you?????

I thought final fantasy XIII had a amazing battle system, I do not know why ppl didnt like it that game was amazing it had a great story line good graphics and lightning was awesome so no offence ppl who didnt like this game but whats wrong with all of you?????

Wouldnt say that too loud lol.

What about the boring characters that i couldn't care less about? hope anyone? vanille and her happy happy uppety up?

Selphie professional? what drugs are you on?

She almost fell over when you first meet her.

Of course,rinoa was an even bigger idiot trying to go after edea and causing her to get caught.

As for raiden:He whines a lot in mgs2 and has a lot of fucking melodrama in mgs4.

I can stand rinoa because she isn't too innocent and uppety up,but selphie who's future encarnation being vanille? NO WAY!!

Maybe we are just two completely different people,i dunno.

Selphie is professional in as much as her sunny disposition and overly enthusiastic nature never prevent her from doing her job. When she is tasked with delivering the message to Seifer during the exam, she makes it across a warzone - by herself - and sucessfully delivers that message, plus she also helps Squall and Zell fight off the various dangers they encounter.

When they are assigned to help Rinoa and the Forest Owls, she candidly voices her opinion that the operation is a bit of a joke and actively supports Squall putting his foot down on how haphazard it all is. And later on, when Trabia is bombed, she doesn't go running off alone to see what happened (as many RPG characters would). She waits until there is a quiet moment, then *asks* if they can go take a look.

That all seems pretty professional to me. Being professional does not mean you have to go around frowning all the time. As long as you get the job done, and none of your squad mates find it off putting, who cares what you act like?

And its pointless to criticise Rinoa too much - after all, she isn't a solider and she has (at the time she faces Edea), basically no practical experience of combat and how real the danger is. As she goes through the game, she gets a story thread where she starts to worry that she really isn't cut out for this sort of thing, and that she doesn't like fighting at all, and isn't any good at it. It does show her character growing up and learning the realities of war and conflict etc, but it all gets submerged by the love story and just how insane the game is by that point. I don't think she's one of the more liked heroines, but I didn't mind her. Its just a shame that her story shrinks to just being a latent sorceress and being Squall's love interest in the second part of that game.

As for Vanille, she isn't happy - its an act she uses to try and forget the stuff she knows she is supposed to be doing, but doesn't want to do. Vanille and Sazh may seem upbeat and jolly, but they are actually the most scared and unhappy people in the whole game. Which is precisely why the game puts them together for so long. Her character *is* annoying, no doubt about it. But for me at least, its all about her awful voice acting and/or the director's handling of it. The actress is never any better than okay, and the *constant* round of squeaks and giggles from her is extremely wearing.

No, I'm not ignoring that. To you it may not be, but to myself and others it IS poor game design. It seems that when SE made FFXIII, they worked on the ending of the game FIRST... and the beginning LAST. Playing 11 boring ass chapters, and then left with 3 good ones is patheticI'm still not sure what exactly your point is, then. You seem to attribute quantity of chapters to quantity of gameplay, which is the point I'm trying to make; don't. 3 chapters with tons of gameplay/chapter vs 11 chapters with little gameplay/chapter. Chapter 11 onwards is essentially the second half of the game, is what I am trying to say. (topopoz, this is also addressed at you; the first 20 hours are slow paced but the last 20-30+ hours are fast paced and filled with a bunch of missions).

If the first 5 hours bored you, that's fine, but I'm not sure what you're trying to argue anymore. A good number of people loved FF13 and a good number of people hated it, its to be expected, you just seem to use your hatred of new games as a vehicle for riding SE's ass for constantly failing your expectations.


Selphie professional? what drugs are you on?

She almost fell over when you first meet her.How is falling at all relevant to being professional? Professionals can be clumsy.


As for raiden:He whines a lot in mgs2 and has a lot of fucking melodrama in mgs4.Yes. Melodrama, right?. You tell me how you'd react when you are captured by some sentient AIs who replace pretty much your entire body from the jaw downwards, and then replaced every drop of blood in your head, on top of the trauma of being a child soldier and completely fucked around with in MGS2 as well as having to kill his own adoptive father. And then you find out that your girlfriend, finally after having verified her existence because you were fucked around with, had a miscarriage with your baby son (at least, that's what she told you) then married some fucking old guy who an AI disguised itself as to fuck around with you (resulting in more trauma). Yeah, some real fucking melodrama going on there.

I'd say, Raiden is one of those few video game characters who I feel deserved the extremely happy ending he got. Have you even fucking played MGS or paid attention to the plot at least?


You know what, Hope also whines because he saw his own mother die protecting him. And the guy that recruited her was some tough-talking idiot in a vigilante group (and I'm fairly sure all the kids were like "what an idiot" when they first saw Snow, too). And he's 14 years old. Do the math.

I'm still not sure what exactly your point is, then. You seem to attribute quantity of chapters to quantity of gameplay, which is the point I'm trying to make; don't. 3 chapters with tons of gameplay/chapter vs 11 chapters with little gameplay/chapter. Chapter 11 onwards is essentially the second half of the game, is what I am trying to say. (topopoz, this is also addressed at you; the first 20 hours are slow paced but the last 20-30+ hours are fast paced and filled with a bunch of missions).

A game should have it's content flow from start to finish and keep it's audience entertained. XIII failed to keep ALL of the target audience (Fans of FF etc) interested in it... I don't just mean the chapter length etc... but also the characters, music, the overall plot... even the damn summons were abominations (a half assed hybrid of transformers and FF summons and we get TWO Shiva's who transform to a bike? wtf?!?!). SE tried to do something different with XIII... and to some they succeeded. To others though, they failed... miserably. I could also comment on the damn linearity of the game, but what's the point?


If the first 5 hours bored you, that's fine, but I'm not sure what you're trying to argue anymore. A good number of people loved FF13 and a good number of people hated it, its to be expected, you just seem to use your hatred of new games as a vehicle for riding SE's ass for constantly failing your expectations.

I seem to use my hatred of new games as a vehicle for.... I don't know whether to burst into a fit of rage or laugh my ass off at that. I've played FF ever since it was released here in Australia, and I've also played numerous RPG's over the years (even the traditional style AD&D games in high school), and from my own perspective, the quality of the FF games has signifcantly declined over the years. Far as I'm concerned the PS2 generation and onwards of FF, is the worst era... I don't include FFXI in that grouping (even though it was originally released on PS2 in Japan) as that's a MMORPG, which is a completely different animal compared to the console RPG's.

If you like XIII, go ahead... enjoy yourself. From my perspective, it was utter garbage and wasn't worth the time or money I spent on it... and seeing brand new and sealed copies of it going for sale in at least four retail outlets for $10AUSD within a month of release (as well as comments from said retailers (which I won't detail as that's third person views) about how their customers have referred to it when returning it for a refund etc), says a LOT about it. I'd love it, if someone had actually done a survey of all the copies returned with the comments as to why they were returned, so I could refer to that in cases like this.

Ultimately though... it's up to the individual in question whether they like this game (and it's parent company) or not. I tried three times to play FFXIII... and each time I tried, the characters/plot/battle system (yes, I hate the damn battle system)/etc etc etc made the game unplayable for me. The bad luck of the number 13 shines on FFXIII...

...but that's just my OWN opinion.

EDIT: I do have my own valid reasons as to why I dislike SE... which AREN'T related to FFXIII at all.

A game should have it's content flow from start to finish and keep it's audience entertained. XIII failed to keep ALL of the target audience (Fans of FF etc) interested in it... I don't just mean the chapter length etc... but also the characters, music, the overall plot... even the damn summons were abominations (a half assed hybrid of transformers and FF summons and we get TWO Shiva's who transform to a bike? wtf?!?!). SE tried to do something different with XIII... and to some they succeeded. To others though, they failed... miserably. I could also comment on the damn linearity of the game, but what's the point?


and from my own perspective

You contradict yourself in the same post. You comment on how much the game objectively sucks -- which you should know damn well you can't really do -- to say "well, in my opinion, I liked it and you're free to like it too, but I hate SE." At least word yourself better, maybe people wouldn't respond to you as harshly as they do, considering you enjoy switching between stating something as opinion and stating something as fact (in terms of quality, that is).

How is falling at all relevant to being professional? Professionals can be clumsy.

If you are in combat you want to be as balanced as possible to keep on your feet and aware.
Imagine if you are a complete and utter clutz and unaware of your surroundings ok?
You wouldn't last very long.

Yes. Melodrama, right?. You tell me how you'd react when you are captured by some sentient AIs who replace pretty much your entire body from the jaw downwards, and then replaced every drop of blood in your head, on top of the trauma of being a child soldier and completely fucked around with in MGS2 as well as having to kill his own adoptive father. And then you find out that your girlfriend, finally after having verified her existence because you were fucked around with, had a miscarriage with your baby son (at least, that's what she told you) then married some fucking old guy who an AI disguised itself as to fuck around with you (resulting in more trauma). Yeah, some real fucking melodrama going on there.

I'd say, Raiden is one of those few video game characters who I feel deserved the extremely happy ending he got. Have you even fucking played MGS or paid attention to the plot at least?

What about snake? he has 3 clones and he killed big boss and used as a pawn in a game for control.

I feel more sorry for snake than raiden.
Raiden's whole personality wasn't that likeable for me and you are allowed to like him but i don't.
In fact,in mgs4:i end up missing frank jaegger as the ninja.

I've beaten mgs2 many times and mgs4 at least 2 or 3 times.
The ending is great to mgs2.

You know what, Hope also whines because he saw his own mother die protecting him. And the guy that recruited her was some tough-talking idiot in a vigilante group (and I'm fairly sure all the kids were like "what an idiot" when they first saw Snow, too). And he's 14 years old. Do the math.

Hope not only whines and cries a lot,he is a whimpering coward.
He complains that he isn't strong enough to lead and finally i say:FINALLY!! you finally man up to lead.

You contradict yourself in the same post. You comment on how much the game objectively sucks -- which you should know damn well you can't really do -- to say "well, in my opinion, I liked it and you're free to like it too, but I hate SE." At least word yourself better, maybe people wouldn't respond to you as harshly as they do, considering you enjoy switching between stating something as opinion and stating something as fact (in terms of quality, that is).

Where have I stated/implied in any of my posts in this subforum about FFXIII "well, in my opinion, I liked it and you're free to like it too, but I hate SE"? I haven't shied away from stating my disgust with this game. To me, it has failed across the board with it's characters, music, battle system, plot, etc etc etc... As I stated, I TRIED to play this game THREE TIMES.... and each time while I may of gotten a bit further into the game than the last, there was nothing there to grab my attention and keep me interested in it.

"People wouldn't respond to you as harshly as they do"... So, I have to tiptoe around and not rock the boat? Fuck that. FROM MY OWN PERSPECTIVE FFXIII was a travesty of a game, and while their are people who do enjoy it, I am not one of them. Why should I be, when I have my own legitimate reasons as to NOT like it? Did you even read all of my post (and understand it), or did you just skim it for what you wanted to use against me? If so, I pity you.

Since I've been a member of this forum, I have tried to have my posts, which may contain opinions based on personal experiences that are not be meant to be taken as facts. What may appear as fact with no source reference may be recollection of information with no source, and may be subject to scrutiny without source reference. Any debate over validity of said facts without source references may be considered conjecture of all parties in that debate. Player comments may not be the expressed position/consent of SE, their affiliates, or any employees of said organizations. Please take these posts with a grain of salt if you are offended by the views of the player and understand that opinions are like assholes... everyone has one, not everyone wants to hear it.

I'm not saying you should like it I'm just saying you should word your shit better so it doesn't seem like you're enforcing your view on others -- you do seem to give off the impression that ff13 is a completely crappy game that nobody should play (hyperbole, of course, but my point still stands, you shouldn't take everything that's said to you at face value since you clearly took my statements literally) and that anyone who plays it is only barely salvaging a dying company -- as opposed to speaking your own opinion. You've also said pretty much almost the exact same shit within that one post as you have throughout the thread, too. I am not condemning you or your viewpoint, merely the way you are wording it, because I loved FF13 but I always ask people if they like straight lines before I recommend it.


Raiden's whole personality wasn't that likeable for me and you are allowed to like him but i don't.That's fine but saying that he has melodrama and whines too much is quite stupid considering the circumstances. If you left it at what you just said then you'd be fine.

And yes, I felt bad for Snake as well. I feel bad for Raiden, but they both got their own happy endings and they both truly deserved it. I was merely talking about Raiden, I didn't mention any of the other characters in MGS who you just feel awful for.


Hope not only whines and cries a lot,he is a whimpering coward.He's also 14. The rest of your point didn't make sense.

That's fine but saying that he has melodrama and whines too much is quite stupid considering the circumstances. If you left it at what you just said then you'd be fine.

As i said:he still has far too much melodrama.
He complains quite a bit about being weak and his past,but in the end there is not enough about him that i actually give a shit about hope,instead i hate him more.

And yes, I felt bad for Snake as well. I feel bad for Raiden, but they both got their own happy endings and they both truly deserved it. I was merely talking about Raiden, I didn't mention any of the other characters in MGS who you just feel awful for.

Raiden's whole thing of:am i dead? no i'm not he stabs himself and then turns into a robot seems kind of overly melodramatic.

It was like they were trying to force you to simpathize with him.

He's also 14. The rest of your point didn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Just because he's 14 doesn't mean he has to whine a lot.
I've known 14 year olds who didn't whine that much.

As i said:he still has far too much melodrama.You can't be melodramatic unless you're crying over spilled milk or something. Raiden isn't crying over spilled milk or anything; he's legitimately had an extremely shitty life and after being kidnapped, thinking his unborn child died and hearing that his girlfriend married some old guy... it really doesn't get worse. Especially because your entire existence -- not unlike Snake's -- was orchestrated from the moment he was born, and he wasn't even a clone of Big Boss like Snake was.


Raiden's whole thing of:am i dead? no i'm not he stabs himself and then turns into a robot seems kind of overly melodramatic.I'm not one to comment on grammar, usually, and I hate grammar Nazis, but your grammar is absolutely atrocious and I'm taking a shot in the dark every single time you post about what your point is.


Just because he's 14 doesn't mean he has to whine a lot.
I've known 14 year olds who didn't whine that much. There's a rather large amount of 14 year olds that whine. I'm not saying it gives him the excuse to whine, but you have to take into account that he is more or less a teenager going through puberty, and they do portray him accurately for a 14 year old.

You can't be melodramatic unless you're crying over spilled milk or something. Raiden isn't crying over spilled milk or anything; he's legitimately had an extremely shitty life and after being kidnapped, thinking his unborn child died and hearing that his girlfriend married some old guy... it really doesn't get worse. Especially because your entire existence -- not unlike Snake's -- was orchestrated from the moment he was born, and he wasn't even a clone of Big Boss like Snake was.

I don't remember that part in the second game.What i remember,is raiden talking about gunpowder fed to him and his military group? something like that.Anyways:This was done by solidus and he had a personal grudge against solidus because of what he did and he was all proud of what he did and even admiring raiden's killing skills.


I'm not one to comment on grammar, usually, and I hate grammar Nazis, but your grammar is absolutely atrocious and I'm taking a shot in the dark every single time you post about what your point is.

There's a rather large amount of 14 year olds that whine. I'm not saying it gives him the excuse to whine, but you have to take into account that he is more or less a teenager going through puberty, and they do portray him accurately for a 14 year old.

There are also some 14 year olds that whine for the wrong reasons,and why i prefer more mature settings.

I still think both hope and vanille were really annoying.

This thread sure has evolved since July. Like mutated into a multiLimbed freak.

I would have to say that, when placed in a stressful life or death situation, anyone would whine.......not so sure about FF13 but Raiden was a child soldier. If you still think thats not going to leave you with some pretty much fucked up emotional baggage than a normal person than you obviously dont know too much about mental trauma. If Hope is 14 and doing the stuff the average FF character does then of course he is going to be pretty whiney. What do you think he will be a hardened little killer? Mandalorian Super Commando? Maybe a powerful, angry, demigod?

Hope is caught in a warzone, he isn't a soldier or indeed someone with any pschylogical training for battlefield conditions, his mother dies in front of him, and then he is in the most literal sense, doomed because of actions out of his control, before being hunted by the authorities, who will kill him on the spot if and when they catch him...

How would you expect him to behave? Can any of us say we would last ten minutes under that kind of stress? When we were that young?! You ask too much of him - he does extremely well considering the circumstances.

Hope is caught in a warzone, he isn't a soldier or indeed someone with any pschylogical training for battlefield conditions, his mother dies in front of him, and then he is in the most literal sense, doomed because of actions out of his control, before being hunted by the authorities, who will kill him on the spot if and when they catch him...

How would you expect him to behave? Can any of us say we would last ten minutes under that kind of stress? When we were that young?! You ask too much of him - he does extremely well considering the circumstances.

And there you have it folks. Vrykolas just won this one (so did raven).

I thought FF13 was amazing. They all have one thing in common, and that's an awesome soundtrack.

In life there are all sorts of things that happen to us,but making up excuses for acting a way because something happened to us in our past is stupid.
I have my skeletons you have your skeletons and guess what:we are all fucked up in life.Whining that you are weak isn't going to do anything unless you get a hold of yourself and start manning up.

Hope should try to lead and maybe even try aww man this is pointless.
All he is to me,is annoying.

Erm, his mother died at the start of the game. You saw it happen. "It happened in the past" is bullshit, and he's thrust into this crap all before he can even figure out just what is happening.


Hope should try to leadWhich he eventually... did.

Raiden was MGS2's butt monkey, and in MGS4 most of his body is still gone. You don't just "get over" this kind of shit. Ever heard of PTSD?

Erm, his mother died at the start of the game. You saw it happen. "It happened in the past" is bullshit, and he's thrust into this crap all before he can even figure out just what is happening.

Which he eventually... did.

Raiden was MGS2's butt monkey, and in MGS4 most of his body is still gone. You don't just "get over" this kind of shit. Ever heard of PTSD?

I know someone who was in vietnam,and you know what? he wasn't fucking whining about it.
He was trying to forget the shitty events and even though sometimes he was frowning,he wasn't constantly whining about it,in fact:He kept it a secret and didn't want to talk about it.

He talked about it to my sister because she knew him longer and was friends with him longer and she told me about some stories.

In life there are all sorts of things that happen to us,but making up excuses for acting a way because something happened to us in our past is stupid.
I have my skeletons you have your skeletons and guess what:we are all fucked up in life.Whining that you are weak isn't going to do anything unless you get a hold of yourself and start manning up.

Hope should try to lead and maybe even try aww man this is pointless.
All he is to me,is annoying.

You lost your mother in a brutal civil war with no home and have no hope of survival? Then you can be qualified. Please tell me if I am wrong but the Nam vet has had years of dealing with it and the kid was under fucking 14 when it happened. Your pointless bravado astounds me, even my friends in the army and marines all agree that if you endure trauma that early on then they will not be goddamned normal.

You lost your mother in a brutal civil war with no home and have no hope of survival? Then you can be qualified. Please tell me if I am wrong but the Nam vet has had years of dealing with it and the kid was under fucking 14 when it happened. Your pointless bravado astounds me, even my friends in the army and marines all agree that if you endure trauma that early on then they will not be goddamned normal.

Even if you suffer from an event and this guy suffered,you might want to forget it because it will rule your life.

I was hit on the back with a chain by a nationalist teacher and i was pissed off,but i want to forget it and live on,why? because i would be happier that way.

If i kept living in the past and never got over it,i would probably dwell into misery which i don't want.

Do you get where i am going?

Yes but not everyone minds are set up the same way. Maybe they dont forget so it the memory and the pain keeps them going. I have seen decades long grudges among family members so even if they want to forget they keep expressing it regardless of how better off they would be. Some people never burry the past. But your right to an extent, I will give you that. But a person whose life has been brutish, nasty, and short doesnt just forget.

You think i forgot those events? or being a foreigner to that part of spain coming there and being said:Fucking american go back to us and liking it? no.
But there are also people who are kind and good and even though i remember,i have to think about positive side,because not everyone is out to get me

Do you think those times where i went into a chatroom and 90% of the times in mirc,people seemed to be assholes that means all americans being asshole? no,but a lot of people who use those chatrooms are kids and kids are immature,plus there are also trolls there too.

If my mom were killed in front of me,i would probably be angry at the person who did it and go get them and i wouldn't forget,but i'd be a lot happier once i caught that son of a bitch.

I would probaly also try to move on because misery only drags you down and instead of being helpful,its detrimental to your health.
I keep hearing from my mom:I choose to be happy not because i am necessarily happy,but because its better than being miserable all the time,and finding good things in life helps makes life better,so i try to live by that motto.

Of course,there are parts of FFXIII i found interesting,just that snow is my least favorite character in the game along with snow and vanille.That leaves:Fang who i never really noticed much,but only second playthrough,i noticed that she was on the opposing team when i first saw her.I never really thought much of fang either.
I thought Lightning was ok,but she was kinda emotionless and a soldier type,which fits some of the roles she has in the game in being always taking her job seriously and cold and professional.I suppose this also has to do with her training since she was a military soldier like cloud and had to do that to be taken seriously.
This of course,left a lot to be desired at moments as well,but i didn't even care about her backstory when she got into how she met hope and how every event lead to each character meeting.My favorite characters so far in FFXIII,are:Sazh and cid.I really like cid,for some reason,he always seems to be a really good character in the final fantasy series,well:Almost always.The only exception with that,is in FF8 where he was a complete wuss and i didn't care for cid at all.

Also,i am trying hard not to rush to correct whatever errors i may in spelling and in comas and such.

No one is out to get you here. You got that right about Cid in 8. He was pretty nonessential.

One problem i have with final fantasy 13,is the story pace.
There is usually always a bunch of trivial shit in new final fantasy that is there to add extra story.
You may think its pointless at times,but its supposed to reveal background on a character.The problem is:You don't give a shit about the character and the thing is done in such a way,that you forget stuff or get confused with the characters background.

This is why i love things being revealed slowly and finding things that add that extra storyline without the necessity of constant bombardment of cutscene after cutscene.Remember the old days where characters talk to each other in certain scenes revealing certain info on their character when you get to a certain area about their past? remember how ff6 and ff7 did it? i kinda wish they would go back to that style rather than have 70-80% cutscene and 20-30% gameplay.
When i play a new final fantasy,i keep thinking of movies which need editing because there is far too much trivial shit in it that is thrown around.

I heard that the most important stuff is told later in the game,but honestly:I don't know if i even care enough to know.You know that feeling where you may have a story behind the character but you aren't intrigued by the characters so it doesn't draw you at all? that is the feeling i get with FFXIII,and when you have a dramatic cutscene and the game tries too hard to make you feel sorry for the character,it pushes you away even farther.

I used to love the series,but now its gone to hell for me.

This is relevant to Hope how? Or is it relevant to Raiden? Because Raiden didn't start whining until every little bit of trauma he repressed surfaced on top of everything going by really fucking fast and with surrealities. And let's not even get into the massive amount of torture he endured and still lives through in Guns of the Patriots. He's not whining or melodramatic, he's just reckless because everything he has to live for was either taken away from him or left him completely. Many soldiers who go through the same amount of torture and pain Raiden go through don't always suck it up, they become reckless, brutal, angry and borderline suicidal as a result simply because they have nothing left to live for. The guy you know from Vietnam seemed like he'd be one of the luckier ones because he probably didn't come back to total nothingness after the war. Raiden was an orphan.

Hope saw his mother die right in front of him and used Snow as an outlet for his anger because he was there when his mother died. He followed him and everything ended up thrusted upon him at once -- he became extremely pissed off and angry at everyone and everything as a result. Once he calmed down, he followed Lightning's lead so he would become strong, like you said, and while he'd try to kill Snow because his 14-year-old self kicks in again, he'd still develop as a human being and at that point, he became a considerable amount more confident and less whiny. Palumpolum is also a noteworthy series of events that show just how much Hope had developed.

You are allowed to not like him but for the love of god at least be more neutral in your assessment of him.

You never forget someone dying or something painfully traumatic, and if you repress it or try to forget it comes back to haunt you and the pain that comes out after repressing it is extremely brutal. And if that traumatic event was either hte catalyst or the beginning of a series of events that go downhill extremely fast? It is *far* worse and harder to get over. In Hope's case, he had virtually no time to act or mourn for his mother. In Raiden's case, after the whole fuckery with the Big Shell, he finds out his girlfriend is real and pregnant then within 9 months finds out the child was a miscarriage, then he gets kidnapped, all that shit happens and within the next couple years he doesn't have time to recover mentally from everything that happened. The Big Shell triggered some of his childhood trauma of being a childhood soldier -- one that he had repressed for so long, and surfaced so painfully -- then he found out he was the butt monkey of a secret terrorist organization and he was experimented on for many years by said organization. There is no melodrama with Raiden. He hasn't had time or ability to mentally recover.

I don't think either of us are in any right to say just what goes through a veteran or anyone's head because of just how bad the mental state of returning soldiers tends to be. There's a lot more to people than they say or act.