Before I even start this post, I want to let any readers know ahead of time that I'm having a fit of insomnia at the moment and honestly don't have much better to do prior to 7 am, because I'm sure I will crash soon, and when I do, it won't be pretty. Anyway...

Since a mod kindly asked myself and a few fellow posters to take a discussion about FFVII to the FFVII forum, here I am, creating a thread in the FFVII section of all places.

The topic we were sort of discussing was whether or not FFVII is overrated. The last thread about this topic was closed over a year ago because it had run hopelessly off topic. I hope to avoid that in this thread.

To put a fine point on it, I contend that FFVII is indeed overrated.

I've heard/read all kinds of praise for FFVII's graphics. "Revolutionary" comes up every now and again. FFVII had pretty FMV's. Big deal; so did Tekken 2, and it was released way before FFVII. The origami characters were bad, even by psx standards. Cloud in particular looked like a brightly colored origami figure. Speaking of Cloud, the dev team couldn't seem to make up their mind about his uniform. Origami Cloud's uniform was a washed-out purple, while FMV and Battle Scene Cloud's uniform was a rather dapper dark blue. That's just sloppy design work, quite unbecoming of high-quality graphics, let alone "revolutionary." My point is that for the most part, for the time, FFVII's graphics were pretty decent, but not overwhelming by any stretch.


Now. The story. Sigh. I've heard some claim it to be the greatest narrative ever. I've heard more claim it to just be great. I have a hard time buying either. The narrative gyrates wildly between chasing Sephiroth, a pair of potential love interests, Cloud and Sephiroth's history, the history and mythology of the Planet, the eeevil Shinra corporation, and Cloud's fucked up psyche. The pacing is just awful; the first disc feels episodic and disjointed, while the second and third discs are a whirlwind of what-the-fuck. While I have no problems with complexity, FFVII's story, especially after disc 1, takes a sharp turn into needlessly convoluted.

I've heard many FFVII fans rave about the characters in FFVII, Cloud and Sephiroth in particular. Sephiroth in particular seems to be put upon this pedestal of awesomeness. While the scene where he burns down Nibelheim is pretty damn cool, Sephiroth is fairly pedestrian for the majority of the game. In fact, until the Temple of the Ancients, the party isn't chasing Sephy for much of a reason other than "the protagonist said so."

Honestly, I don't hear too terribly much about the other aspects of the game, like the battle system or the music, other than One Winged Angel. Truthfully, while there aren't any glaring flaws in either (unless you consider the W-Item exploit a glaring flaw), they aren't particularly special, really. I'm not saying they're bad; I'm saying they're just not great. Which leads me to another point: how can a game be the greatest of <insert time period here> if the gameplay, the core functionality of the game, isn't anything special? There was absolutely nothing new brought to the table. Squeenix had patents on ATB since 1991; we saw it in FFIV. The Materia system, while superficially different, wasn't much more than a twist on the magicite system of FFVI, and Limit Breaks were basically a refined version of FFVI's "desperation attacks."

Now that I'm beginning to crash, I'm going to wrap this up: I don't think FFVII is bad. I think the game is adequate, but certainly not deserving of all the praise it gets.

I strongly disagree...

ff7 is by no means over rated. I believe many people would have loved to see ff6 be a massive release on playstation instead of 7 and been given flashy graphics and all but it wasn't. ff7 is a great game. who cares if the characters were just a bunch of badly placed blocks, some of the backdrops in the game were done brilliantly. also the music was fantastic, the world music on the first disc is a master piece and what about aeris theme? I thought one winged angel was pretty drab in comparison, only loved because it was sephiroths music.

The limit system is not all that bad, they are not all that easy to attain (unless you use a hyper on urself) so you do not over use them. in ff8 you simply need to cast aura on urself or keep your characters on low HP to unleash, which was a massive exploit..

The materia system is different as it has basically limitless potential. you have the ability to combine materia to make the magic work as you wish! with materia such as 'final attack', 'quadra magic', 'mp turbo', it gave the game a new and exciting element to casting magic when acquiring not just new magic but different ways to use them. giving your weapon an element of attack or your armour an element of defense, customisng it how you like all through materia. That is wat makes the materia system slightly different to chucking on some magicite until you learn how to cast a spell.

The story is totally stupid though. Only some parts of the story even make sense. I have played the game through many many times, and if you asked me to tell you the story i would still get confused. like cloud has jenova cells from some experiment that he escaped from, and he also manages to survive getting stabbed by the masamune and throw sephiroth into the depths of the mako reactor at neibelheim? how fucking confusing is that?

I must say though that the main reason i enjoy the game is because of the music and sephiroths character. Cloud is the worst protagonist that i could think of.. I mean Squall is such a better character than Cloud, if only it was Squall vs Sephiroth, then ff7 would have been even better.

ff7 is by no means over rated.

Have you been living on Mars?

Have you been living on Mars?

This has to be the finest argument of all time. Bravo, Smarty, you truly live up to your choice of user name.

I haven't done this in a while. Time for an indulgence.


who cares if the characters were just a bunch of badly placed blocks, some of the backdrops in the game were done brilliantly.

So all the complaints about badly rendered characters are null and void because it has pretty backgrounds? That's the same as saying a play with bad actors in cheap costumes is really good because the sets look nice. Whatever line of reasoning brought you to that conclusion must be some kind of alien parapsychological mindfuckery induced by drugs and a weedwhacker running amok under your skull.


The materia system is different as it has basically limitless potential. you have the ability to combine materia to make the magic work as you wish! with materia such as 'final attack', 'quadra magic', 'mp turbo', it gave the game a new and exciting element to casting magic when acquiring not just new magic but different ways to use them. giving your weapon an element of attack or your armour an element of defense, customisng it how you like all through materia. That is wat makes the materia system slightly different to chucking on some magicite until you learn how to cast a spell.

And it also meant that every single character could do the exact same things, rendering 2/3 of the party totally useless. If any part of your brain thinks that's good design, it's obviously the part being targeted by the aforementioned weedwhacker.


The story is totally stupid though. Only some parts of the story even make sense. I have played the game through many many times, and if you asked me to tell you the story i would still get confused. like cloud has jenova cells from some experiment that he escaped from, and he also manages to survive getting stabbed by the masamune and throw sephiroth into the depths of the mako reactor at neibelheim? how fucking confusing is that?

A story-based game with a bad story. That pretty much shouts "COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT" from the mountaintops.


I mean Squall is such a better character than Cloud, if only it was Squall vs Sephiroth, then ff7 would have been even better.

How would it have been better? I can picture it now. Sephiroth skewers Aeris and Squall says "...whatever."

...

Holy shit. That IS an improvement.

This has to be the finest argument of all time. Bravo, Smarty, you truly live up to your choice of user name.

Thank you, although my intentions don't always match my user name.

So all the complaints about badly rendered characters are null and void because it has pretty backgrounds? That's the same as saying a play with bad actors in cheap costumes is really good because the sets look nice. Whatever line of reasoning brought you to that conclusion must be some kind of alien parapsychological mindfuckery induced by drugs and a weedwhacker running amok under your skull.

Badly rendered? :S


This is Planet's Core.


This is Kefka.

Clearly sprites - polygons is an improvement, and the backgrounds really were stunning.


And it also meant that every single character could do the exact same things, rendering 2/3 of the party totally useless. If any part of your brain thinks that's good design, it's obviously the part being targeted by the aforementioned weedwhacker.

You chose the characters you liked, a bit like FFVI. Limit breaks and weapons gave some semblance of class and individuality, though mostly it was just EPIC MULTI DAMAGE. Aeris pre-death, Vincent, Cait Sith and Red XIII were fun characters to use, however shitty.


A story-based game with a bad story. That pretty much shouts "COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT" from the mountaintops.

I thought the story was decent D:

Although I mostly play it as a music-based game :3

So all the complaints about badly rendered characters are null and void because it has pretty backgrounds? That's the same as saying a play with bad actors in cheap costumes is really good because the sets look nice. Whatever line of reasoning brought you to that conclusion must be some kind of alien parapsychological mindfuckery induced by drugs and a weedwhacker running amok under your skull.


It is more like a movie with good actors in a good setting without having fancy eye candy constantly.. The graphics are more than adequate for an rpg of its time.



And it also meant that every single character could do the exact same things, rendering 2/3 of the party totally useless. If any part of your brain thinks that's good design, it's obviously the part being targeted by the aforementioned weedwhacker.


it allows you to choose your healer or magic caster or attacker to be who you want. instead of being forced to have a character that may be a great healer but useless in all other regards. take a game like seiken densetsu 3 (secret of mana 2) my favourite rpg of all time. The only thing that makes it painful is that my favourite party does not enable me to really have a healer without the expense of using one of my main attackers to heal. Do you not like the freedom of creating your characters as you see fit? If you render some in your party as useless then that is a poor set up on your part.



A story-based game with a bad story. That pretty much shouts "COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT" from the mountaintops.


The story has its good parts but is a little confusing at times. the individual plots are great, but the overall story could have been played out a little better.



How would it have been better? I can picture it now. Sephiroth skewers Aeris and Squall says "...whatever."

...

Holy shit. That IS an improvement.

haha I was simply making a comparison in the characters personalities. Cloud is a wannabe soldier who gains strength from someone elses life who he claims to be?

Squall did what he wanted. Didn't take shit from anybody. Sephiroth would have killed Aeris and Squall would have just taken him on instead of grabbing her dead body. The game would have only been one disc long haha. If the story had ended there and still been 3 discs long then perhaps there would have been adequate memory for some better rendered characters haha.

either way continue your discussion on how FF7 is an over rated game and how people should look at it simply as another RPG.

Final Fantasy VII is a quirky little game, and the most laugh-out-loud funny after IX.

It is more like a movie with good actors in a good setting without having fancy eye candy constantly.. The graphics are more than adequate for an rpg of its time.

I disagree with you 100%. It's more like a movie with bad actors in an irrelevant setting, which tries to divert your attention from its obvious failures by throwing out some eye candy (FMV cutscenes) from time to time.


it allows you to choose your healer or magic caster or attacker to be who you want. instead of being forced to have a character that may be a great healer but useless in all other regards. take a game like seiken densetsu 3 (secret of mana 2) my favourite rpg of all time. The only thing that makes it painful is that my favourite party does not enable me to really have a healer without the expense of using one of my main attackers to heal. Do you not like the freedom of creating your characters as you see fit? If you render some in your party as useless then that is a poor set up on your part.

You couldn't have missed the point more if you had thrown a toothpick at it in a hurricane. I was saying that all the characters can do exactly the same things, so there's usually no need to use more than 3 of the party members.


The story has its good parts but is a little confusing at times. the individual plots are great, but the overall story could have been played out a little better.

Which great individual plots would those be?

I disagree with you 100%. It's more like a movie with bad actors in an irrelevant setting, which tries to divert your attention from its obvious failures by throwing out some eye candy (FMV cutscenes) from time to time.


Have you even played through the game? how is it at all like that? The FMV scenes are not at all to show off how good they could make graphics back in 97 but it was mostly at integral parts of the story. Sephiroth taking down Aeris, Sephiroth walking through the flames at nibel, Cloud putting Aeris to rest in the waters of the forgotten city. All the highten emotion!



You couldn't have missed the point more if you had thrown a toothpick at it in a hurricane. I was saying that all the characters can do exactly the same things, so there's usually no need to use more than 3 of the party members.


haha i never knew that it was possible to use more than 3 party members. with each RPG that I go through I alternate players with each playthrough to get each players seperate story and reactions through the game. Although we do all have our favourites and as in FF7 the materia or magic has no bearing on your choice it is mostly to do with weapons and limits. for example many people may enjoy using barret as his weapon is long range. or yuffie if people like to morph enemies for items, some may choose vincent as his ultimate weapon has the ability to cause the most chaos (excuse the pun) as the formula used for it is not attached to max hp or mp or anything that can be lowered but on how many monsters you kill with vincent. so if you manage to rack up enough kills with him then his weapon can deal 9999 damage without fail, even to ruby weapon who has the highest defense in the entire game i believe.

Then you have the different limits. Cid who's highwind limit has high attack power and a big multiplier. Barret who has ungarmax which i believe has the biggest multiplier in the game. Aeris if you would like to be invincable (on the first disc anyways, unless you use gamesharks to get her later on). Tifa if you enjoy a challenge with the reels. Cait Sith if you wish to use his game over limit, which spells doom even for Emerald Weapon. Yuffie has quite a good third level limit which attacks multiple times.

These are some of the things that people would consider when choosing a team in FF7. I dont think the fact that all three players have the ability to heal or cast summons at your leisure is too much of a downfall. I mean if you would like to be forced into using certain characters it takes away a sense of freedom, which is essential to RPG's i believe. I mean having a white mage is all well and good, but in most final fantasies where that is the case you usually have 4 characters in your party from my memory. one for healing and the other 3 to do with as you wish.. That is my take anyways



Which great individual plots would those be?

Barret having his town destroyed by shinra and having a friend, dyne, who is really marlene's father.

Red's father who protected cosmo canyon.

Yuffie's optional story where you get to meet Don Corneo for the last time haha

Cid sacrificing his dream of going to space! (Cid was a great character)

And so on.

Many parts of the characters stories have nothing to do with the main plot at all. that is mainly based around Cloud and Sephiorth, who have such a small interaction with eachother throughout the game anyways. Sephiroth doesn't even remember who Cloud is at first! Because Cloud is a nobody haha.

No game is perfect, FF7 certainly isn't perfect. But it is a great game

Have you even played through the game? how is it at all like that? The FMV scenes are not at all to show off how good they could make graphics back in 97 but it was mostly at integral parts of the story. Sephiroth taking down Aeris, Sephiroth walking through the flames at nibel, Cloud putting Aeris to rest in the waters of the forgotten city. All the highten emotion!

This does nothing to address my statement, so I am ignoring it.


haha i never knew that it was possible to use more than 3 party members. with each RPG that I go through I alternate players with each playthrough to get each players seperate story and reactions through the game. Although we do all have our favourites and as in FF7 the materia or magic has no bearing on your choice it is mostly to do with weapons and limits. for example many people may enjoy using barret as his weapon is long range. or yuffie if people like to morph enemies for items, some may choose vincent as his ultimate weapon has the ability to cause the most chaos (excuse the pun) as the formula used for it is not attached to max hp or mp or anything that can be lowered but on how many monsters you kill with vincent. so if you manage to rack up enough kills with him then his weapon can deal 9999 damage without fail, even to ruby weapon who has the highest defense in the entire game i believe.

Then you have the different limits. Cid who's highwind limit has high attack power and a big multiplier. Barret who has ungarmax which i believe has the biggest multiplier in the game. Aeris if you would like to be invincable (on the first disc anyways, unless you use gamesharks to get her later on). Tifa if you enjoy a challenge with the reels. Cait Sith if you wish to use his game over limit, which spells doom even for Emerald Weapon. Yuffie has quite a good third level limit which attacks multiple times.

These are some of the things that people would consider when choosing a team in FF7. I dont think the fact that all three players have the ability to heal or cast summons at your leisure is too much of a downfall. I mean if you would like to be forced into using certain characters it takes away a sense of freedom, which is essential to RPG's i believe. I mean having a white mage is all well and good, but in most final fantasies where that is the case you usually have 4 characters in your party from my memory. one for healing and the other 3 to do with as you wish.. That is my take anyways

/facepalm

I have nothing more to say to this, as I do not want to start an entirely new argument.


Barret having his town destroyed by shinra and having a friend, dyne, who is really marlene's father.

So the game establishes a paper-thin and ultimately pointless justification for the guy's hatred of the big bad corporation. Nothing new or interesting about a revenge motive, especially when it only comes into play again in a useless sequence that adds nothing to characterization or story progression. As for the kid, she was nothing but flotsam in the story.


Red's father who protected cosmo canyon.

Oh, you mean that bit where the critter thought his dad was a coward without knowing anything about what happened, then gets conveniently proven wrong for the sake of dramatic effect that means nothing due to the massive hole in logic? Pardon me while I die laughing.


Yuffie's optional story where you get to meet Don Corneo for the last time haha

I can't comment on this because I couldn't be bothered to do that bit.


Cid sacrificing his dream of going to space! (Cid was a great character)

Again, a conveniently established bit of backstory existing for no purpose but to set up a later event that was ultimately meaningless. I couldn't even begin to count the instances of such pathetic gimmickry in that game.


Sephiroth doesn't even remember who Cloud is at first! Because Cloud is a nobody haha.

You would think the guy would remember someone who had fucking gutted him.

Unfortunately this time around ur replies dont really leave anything more for discussion. You are quite happy to say that using materia doesn't put characters into specific classes and therefore renders most characters as useless. However dont look at each characters differences in creating a party for the style of play you wish. Really a point that has no need for discussion as it is irrevelant to the battle system as you set your players up how you want like in most other RPG's.


So the game establishes a paper-thin and ultimately pointless justification for the guy's hatred of the big bad corporation. Nothing new or interesting about a revenge motive, especially when it only comes into play again in a useless sequence that adds nothing to characterization or story progression. As for the kid, she was nothing but flotsam in the story.



Oh, you mean that bit where the critter thought his dad was a coward without knowing anything about what happened, then gets conveniently proven wrong for the sake of dramatic effect that means nothing due to the massive hole in logic? Pardon me while I die laughing.



I can't comment on this because I couldn't be bothered to do that bit.



Again, a conveniently established bit of backstory existing for no purpose but to set up a later event that was ultimately meaningless. I couldn't even begin to count the instances of such pathetic gimmickry in that game.


I'm pretty sure you missed the point in this bit. I was talking about character development outside the main story. To say that any parts of these has no purpose on later events is completely right. It is an insight into the characters and character development. Which FF7 does pretty well. Explains why characters are who they are, gives them a background and a unique story.

It is a shame that you cant see things in a different light. It makes me wonder why you even talk about the games if you dont like them.

Did you enjoy any game in the FF series? or were they all over rated let downs for someone who wants to see amazing graphics and a novel by victor hugo played out in a role playing game?

I've heard/read all kinds of praise for FFVII's graphics. "Revolutionary" comes up every now and again. FFVII had pretty FMV's. Big deal; so did Tekken 2, and it was released way before FFVII. The origami characters were bad, even by psx standards. Cloud in particular looked like a brightly colored origami figure. Speaking of Cloud, the dev team couldn't seem to make up their mind about his uniform. Origami Cloud's uniform was a washed-out purple, while FMV and Battle Scene Cloud's uniform was a rather dapper dark blue. That's just sloppy design work, quite unbecoming of high-quality graphics, let alone "revolutionary." My point is that for the most part, for the time, FFVII's graphics were pretty decent, but not overwhelming by any stretch.


One thing about this, to consider the "revolutionary" aspect of the Graphics of FF7 it requires a little more observation beyond of the renders & the sprites.
I personally think that the "Revolutionary" aspect about the graphics it's how well crafted are the special effects & animations during.. say casting magic, summons, limit breaks etc... It's a BIG HUGE JUMP, from seeing only a 2D image droping a big fireball to another 2D sprite, to what we see on FF7. The FMV at FF7 share also this aspect, great detail on the effects of the "supernatural".

But if we talk about Over-rate aspect. I say this, FFVII made big impact because of it's artwork, not because of it's storyline or it's gameplay or anything else.
FFVII has Tetsuya Nomura as the character designer and Artistic direction, and the style of this guy is very anime pop, full of fanservice (Tifa+Yuffie+Cloud+Sephiroth+Zack+manyothers), bishonen & all that things that easily attracts people. I bet that if Amano made the artistic design for FF7 not will not be a quarter as famous as it is these days.

While the story is not great, it's good, badly justified, but at least there's something to it, and it's kinda fun, there are some nice concepts like "lifestream" or "mako energy".

I personally think that the "Revolutionary" aspect about the graphics it's how well crafted are the special effects & animations during.. say casting magic, summons, limit breaks etc... It's a BIG HUGE JUMP, from seeing only a 2D image droping a big fireball to another 2D sprite, to what we see on FF7. The FMV at FF7 share also this aspect, great detail on the effects of the "supernatural".

Here's the thing: the jump from 2d to 3d had already taken place, so most of what you had said is really irrelevant. Were the summons and magic spells well-done? Yes. That's why I didn't say anything about them. However, "revolutionary" is reaching, to put it nicely, especially when you look at how poorly the characters were depicted outside of battles and cutscenes.



But if we talk about Over-rate aspect. I say this, FFVII made big impact because of it's artwork, not because of it's storyline or it's gameplay or anything else.

Yet FFVII fanboys point to its storyline, gameplay, and just about anything else in their defense of it. The fact is, below the artsy elements, FFVII is still a game. And the best games have the best gameplay. FFVII's gameplay simply wasn't anything special.


FFVII has Tetsuya Nomura as the character designer and Artistic direction, and the style of this guy is very anime pop, full of fanservice (Tifa+Yuffie+Cloud+Sephiroth+Zack+manyothers), bishonen & all that things that easily attracts people. I bet that if Amano made the artistic design for FF7 not will not be a quarter as famous as it is these days.

The implication that Nomura might be a better designer than Amano is positively ridiculous. The speculation is utterly pointless in this thread, and describing Nomura's style is pretty redundant, to be perfectly honest.


While the story is not great, it's good, badly justified, but at least there's something to it, and it's kinda fun, there are some nice concepts like "lifestream" or "mako energy".

Whether a story is "fun" or not is a purely personal matter and doesn't particularly belong in this sort of discussion, either. I will, however, maintain that the narrative is poorly executed for the reasons I stated in my original post. To very briefly recap, the pacing is awful and the last third of the story is a whirlwind of what-the-fuck. Prak brought up another point that I neglected: the characterizations were quite flat, as well.


The materia system is different as it has basically limitless potential. you have the ability to combine materia to make the magic work as you wish! with materia such as 'final attack', 'quadra magic', 'mp turbo', it gave the game a new and exciting element to casting magic when acquiring not just new magic but different ways to use them. giving your weapon an element of attack or your armour an element of defense, customisng it how you like all through materia. That is wat makes the materia system slightly different to chucking on some magicite until you learn how to cast a spell.

While there are interesting combinations of materia to be had, at its heart, the materia system is still little more than an update of the magicite system. If you want a spell, you have to find the magic rock that will teach you the spell and grind a certain amount of ability points until you learn it. The side effect of having the ability to cast spells tied to the materia instead of tied to the character is that the player is enabled to copy/paste materia setups, removing most (if not all) of a character's individuality in battle. By copy/pasting materia setups, Cloud = Barret = Red XIII = Yuffie.



Clearly sprites - polygons is an improvement, and the backgrounds really were stunning.

Again, the jump to 3d had already been made; pretending that FFVII's graphics were special because the previous FF had been a 2d sprite-based game on a 16-bit system is disingenuous at best.

The implication that Nomura might be a better designer than Amano is positively ridiculous. The speculation is utterly pointless in this thread, and describing Nomura's style is pretty redundant, to be perfectly honest.


I don't think that's what he's implying.

Deep down people are stupid, and in the end prefer things that are shiny and pretty not the things that have any kind of meaning. That's what Nomura did.
He made a spiky-haired blonde main character with a huge sword. Who wouldn't fall for that? He made the story seem well designed, making perfect sense (to those that are asleep with their eyes open while they can't stop thinking how cool Cloud's sword is) some epic moments here and there and that appealed to the majority of the people who played it.
On the other hand Amano wouldn't do anything like that. topopoz was only referring to the popularity the game would have, nothing regarding the characters, story etc etc.

At least, that's the impression I got. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I played ffVI after ffVII , and I must say I loved the ffVI graphics. I liked the 2D style , that looked like a cartoon, and with some interpolation settings in the snes emulator it looked very neat. I think ffVI and FFVII are good in different ways.
About the story in FFVII, I don't care too much if I didn't understand it fully. What matters to me is ambiance in the game, and how you could be immersed in the game (and music helped a lot). I must admit I didn't like too much the 3D sprites of FFVII, but most of the time I was looking at the town, the cavern etc... (what, you call background, but that's a bit more than a background for me). The FMV can be sometimes exciting, but other times I find it add nothing. I don't care too much of the spectacular effect during fighting, and after doing ten time the same summon , you are
bored.

By the way, I find the story of FFX sucks in comparison of FFVII. In FFX, yuna, is always whining. Whereas in FFVII , you don't realize how much you liked Aeris until she disappeared.

Well, I played VII after VI, and I was completely blown away by how good it looked in comparison. I fail to see how someone could see otherwise...

By the way, I find the story of FFX sucks in comparison of FFVII. In FFX, yuna, is always whining. Whereas in FFVII , you don't realize how much you liked Aeris until she disappeared.

One character =/= the entire story, and just because you liked Aeris doesn't mean that everybody else did.


Well, I played VII after VI, and I was completely blown away by how good it looked in comparison. I fail to see how someone could see otherwise...

You're also completely missing the point. FFVII's graphics weren't revolutionary because the rest of the world had already made the jump to 3d. I can name games that had pretty backgrounds and FMV's that were released prior to FFVII. While the majority of the graphics were pretty good for the time, there wasn't anything particularly mind-blowing about them, let alone revolutionary.

Prak I don't even know why you bothered trying. they're fangirls.

Well, it's nice to think that there might exist some mote of hope in the fanatics. I don't hate FFVII or its fans, it's just when they start bashing the other games or fans of the other games or claiming FFVII is "teh bset!!11!!!!1" that I have a problem. It's kind of like how I view religion; believe what you want, just don't try and force it on me or we're not gonna get along. The same applies to FFVII. I won't state my feelings any further as I've already done so numerous times, but I truly believe that this whole FFVII-overratedness feud will forever be a battle in progress.

Yet FFVII fanboys point to its storyline, gameplay, and just about anything else in their defense of it. The fact is, below the artsy elements, FFVII is still a game. And the best games have the best gameplay. FFVII's gameplay simply wasn't anything special.

The implication that Nomura might be a better designer than Amano is positively ridiculous. The speculation is utterly pointless in this thread, and describing Nomura's style is pretty redundant, to be perfectly honest.

Again, the jump to 3d had already been made; pretending that FFVII's graphics were special because the previous FF had been a 2d sprite-based game on a 16-bit system is disingenuous at best.

You got me wrong in both the Artwork aspect & the Graphics, I basically said that the revolutionary aspect on the graphics were the special effects not the render or the sprites.

I'd never imply who's better than who at designing on the artwork, look a little closer, to begin with they're completely different styles.


I don't think that's what he's implying.

Deep down people are stupid, and in the end prefer things that are shiny and pretty not the things that have any kind of meaning. That's what Nomura did.
He made a spiky-haired blonde main character with a huge sword. Who wouldn't fall for that? He made the story seem well designed, making perfect sense (to those that are asleep with their eyes open while they can't stop thinking how cool Cloud's sword is) some epic moments here and there and that appealed to the majority of the people who played it.
On the other hand Amano wouldn't do anything like that. topopoz was only referring to the popularity the game would have, nothing regarding the characters, story etc etc.

At least, that's the impression I got. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Don't worry, you got it perfectly.. =D

How would it have been better? I can picture it now. Sephiroth skewers Aeris and Squall says "...whatever."

...

Holy shit. That IS an improvement.

You know, that is quite hilarious to think about :D.

I knew this was gonna happen... I just knew it.

cheema201 & Q-Tip Trepe... There have been others here on this forum like you in the past, who have tried to excel the virtues and say how 100% perfect FFVII is. Regardless of if you say otherwise, that is what you are trying to do.

In any event, FFVII (the initial game, not all that compilation nonsense) was a good game. Not a great game and most assuredly NOT a perfect game. Trying to say otherwise now, 12 years after it's release is not just sad but pathetic imo. Fanboys/girls who cream their pants in explosive delight over anything to do with FFVII, I'm so damn tired of. Firstly, there are other RPG's which were released around the same time as FFVII, (in the same year I mean), which are just as good as FFVII.

The reason FFVII got such a big 'show', was due to the publisher, in this case it was SONY, NOT SE, paying out substantial amounts of money to various forms of media to advertise FFVII, to spur interest in the game. Which it did succeed, but also started the generation of fanatics. Hardcore fans who think FFVII was 'sent by God to deliver the wayward masses to the Pearly Gates'.

Psycho_Cyan, Prak and others have made numerous points both for and against FFVII, yet it appears to me that the 'diehard FFVII' fans (IE. Fanatics, Fanboys/girls call them what you will) think that anyone who has one wrong thing to say about FFVII, should be overwhelmed with their twisted reasoning to turn them around to their way of thinking. 'FFVII IS THE BEST! YOU MUST THINK LIKE US! FFVII WILL DELIVER YOU FROM YOUR MUNDANE LIFE TO NIRVANA!'.

What you diehards fail to understand is that in 12 years, a lot of people's taste in games changes over time. Yes, I was a fan of FFVII. I freely admit that, and accept any flaming arrows due me for that. Over time though, my 'passion' (if you want to call it that) for FFVII has dulled, and even soured due to the mindless and inane prattle from fanatics about FFVII, as well as the whole 'Compilation of FFVII'.

I could continue, but what's the damn point? Fanatics don't care about what others think and will always try to seduce others to the dark side (IE their way of thinking) about whatever damn topic they're been brainwashed to accept as gospel.

Btw... this:


How would it have been better? I can picture it now. Sephiroth skewers Aeris and Squall says "...whatever."

...

Holy shit. That IS an improvement.

So very true.

Yes, I was a fan of FFVII. I freely admit that, and accept any flaming arrows due me for that.

...o rly??

Note the keyword in that sentence being 'WAS'.

However, if I'm due for a roasting because of it, then so be it.

Yes, you are.

As soon as I figure out something to say, the roasting will begin!

Can I make a request, for the marinade to have an alcoholic base this time? Last time it gave my skin a rash.

I dunno. I don't think you deserve it anymore...

What you diehards fail to understand is that in 12 years, a lot of people's taste in games changes over time.
Exactly. I won't play again that game before long (or perhaps never ) , but somehow it stays in my heart. FF7 have done a lot to make RPG popular, even if there are better RPG.
By the way, Zelda Classics (the first one) sucks in comparison to modern games. I still got some fun by playing it. Oh yes , there's no interesting story, no FMV, and the graphics, and the music sucks somehow.

...ugh. You list the things that don't matter to back up your claim of how the first Zelda game sucks. Personally, that's the only Zelda game I can play. I've tried the other ones but I can't seem to get into them.

I swear, the first thread I read when I first joined this place, was disturbingly similar to this one in every way, Prak and all. Good to know that some things never change.

The way I see it, this world has got to make you smile. Personally, FFVII made me smile years ago, but now, I can't even remember 90% of the game. All of the debating and arguing, have almost, permanently, erased it from my consciousness . --"

@IDX,

...ugh. You list the things that don't matter to back up your claim of how the first Zelda game sucks. Personally, that's the only Zelda game I can play. I've tried the other ones but I can't seem to get into them.
I meant, that by using the criterias used on this thread to judge a game, then it sucks.
But of course , since I enjoyed the game, it doesn't sucks (at least for me) , and the analysis around FFVII to explain why the game is bad is just BS.
By the way, Zelda "a link to the past" on snes is so good, how can you tell you liked only the first ?

@Zulu,

Personally, FFVII made me smile years ago, but now, I can't even remember 90% of the game. All of the debating and arguing, have almost, permanently, erased it from my consciousness . --"
Exactly, I got a smile from this game, full point. I wasn't even aware of all of the FF7 bashing before discovering this forum (I was just looking for some VGM music). I must say, I didn't see yet "the advent children", nor played the platform game with valentine, nor played crisis core. And I got more fun at playing FFVI than FFX.

I swear, the first thread I read when I first joined this place, was disturbingly similar to this one in every way, Prak and all. Good to know that some things never change.

The way I see it, this world has got to make you smile. Personally, FFVII made me smile years ago, but now, I can't even remember 90% of the game. All of the debating and arguing, have almost, permanently, erased it from my consciousness . --"

@IDX,

I meant, that by using the criterias used on this thread to judge a game, then it sucks.
But of course , since I enjoyed the game, it doesn't sucks (at least for me) , and the analysis around FFVII to explain why the game is bad is just BS.
By the way, Zelda "a link to the past" on snes is so good, how can you tell you liked only the first ?

@Zulu,

Exactly, I got a smile from this game, full point. I wasn't even aware of all of the FF7 bashing before discovering this forum (I was just looking for some VGM music). I must say, I didn't see yet "the advent children", nor played the platform game with valentine, nor played crisis core. And I got more fun at playing FFVI than FFX.




I kind of miss the fun I had playing FF7, but I'm to lazy to play through the game again, lol.

If you over annalyze any game you will come to the conclusion that it is over rated to some people from your own point of view..

I am definately a fan of FF7, but i am also a fan of FF6, FF4, FF8, FF9 and FF10.

I believe they were all great games. FF6 gets more hype than any other final fantasy game, and for good reason, it was in my opinion the best game in the series..

It is surprising to me to see people argue over a game because someone said that the graphics were revolutionary or something? Why are people looking for eye candy? dirge of cerberus depicted some of the areas from FF7 in a fantastic new light! The mansion at nibel looked fantastic. But it was suuch a shiiiiit game. (sorry to any fans). It is cool to have some flashy graphics but that is just an added bonus i believe. I would be a fan of the game if it was released on snes with 2d graphics.

People are 'roasting' eachother for liking a game which this forum is about? Just because they dont think that it is over rated? It is true that many RPG's which are as good or better than FF7 are not shown the same amount of attention, and are possibly in many peoples eyes "under rated". But I know people who hated RPG's and FF7 showed them the light, they wanted to see wat all the hype was about, and now they are RPG fans and have played through lesser known titles with excitement! Any RPG fan loves to see other people get into it, if FF7 has done that for people then what is so bad about that?

If you over annalyze any game you will come to the conclusion that it is over rated to some people from your own point of view..

I am definately a fan of FF7, but i am also a fan of FF6, FF4, FF8, FF9 and FF10.

I believe they were all great games. FF6 gets more hype than any other final fantasy game, and for good reason, it was in my opinion the best game in the series..

It is surprising to me to see people argue over a game because someone said that the graphics were revolutionary or something? Why are people looking for eye candy? dirge of cerberus depicted some of the areas from FF7 in a fantastic new light! The mansion at nibel looked fantastic. But it was suuch a shiiiiit game. (sorry to any fans). It is cool to have some flashy graphics but that is just an added bonus i believe. I would be a fan of the game if it was released on snes with 2d graphics.

People are 'roasting' eachother for liking a game which this forum is about? Just because they dont think that it is over rated? It is true that many RPG's which are as good or better than FF7 are not shown the same amount of attention, and are possibly in many peoples eyes "under rated". But I know people who hated RPG's and FF7 showed them the light, they wanted to see wat all the hype was about, and now they are RPG fans and have played through lesser known titles with excitement! Any RPG fan loves to see other people get into it, if FF7 has done that for people then what is so bad about that?

What you may fail to understand cheema201, is that there have been numerous people who have joined this forum over the years and have gone on and on about how great FFVII is, that to not like it, you must be an idiot etc etc. They post idiotic reasons as to why they like it, or ask about rumors for the game which are true (which 100% of rumors about FFVII have been proven false), and in general irritate and cause no end of annoyance to the general population of the forum.

I don't hate FFVII per se, as the original FFVII I do like (not love, like), but unlike other hardcore, diehard fanatics (the ones who fit into what I said in my first paragraph), I do not treat it as the second coming of Jesus Christ which they do.

What you have to understand though... it's up to the individual to decide if they like the game or not. It's also up to that person how they react in response to the aforementioned fanatics who have popped up on this forum over the years and continue their tirade.

Imo, FFVII is overrated, the amount of hardcore fanaticism which has been posted here on this sub section of the forums, in violation of the forum charter for this section and it seems, just to annoy others who want to talk about certain specifics and not get caught up in the whole 'FFVII IS THE BESTEST EVAH BECAUSE...' debate.

If you like FFVII, congratulations. Just don't expect everyone else to feel the same as you do.

FF7:

Is it a good game? --Yes

Is it overrated? -Yes

I would really like to see NEW, ORIGINAL ideas as opposed to remakes or spinoffs of originals, and FF7 has had more spinoffs than any other Final Fantasy title. I just want the hype to die. I like the original, but just let it stay that way and come up with new ideas please, square-enix.

You got me wrong in both the Artwork aspect & the Graphics, I basically said that the revolutionary aspect on the graphics were the special effects not the render or the sprites.

I know that's what you said. I quoted it. I'll quote it again.


I personally think that the "Revolutionary" aspect about the graphics it's how well crafted are the special effects & animations during.. say casting magic, summons, limit breaks etc... It's a BIG HUGE JUMP, from seeing only a 2D image droping a big fireball to another 2D sprite, to what we see on FF7. The FMV at FF7 share also this aspect, great detail on the effects of the "supernatural".

And I'll respond like I did before. The spells, summons, etc. were well-done (that means I think they were good), but they weren't revolutionary by any stretch, because the BIG HUGE JUMP (your words, not mine) had already been made by the rest of the gaming world, so FF was just a latecomer to the bandwagon.


If you over annalyze any game you will come to the conclusion that it is over rated to some people from your own point of view..

So looking at games objectively for a change is bad? I would claim that if more people did precisely that more often, there would be fewer shit games released. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough, but I don't want to waste my time and money on shitty games.


I am definately a fan of FF7, but i am also a fan of FF6, FF4, FF8, FF9 and FF10.

I believe they were all great games. FF6 gets more hype than any other final fantasy game, and for good reason, it was in my opinion the best game in the series..

This thread isn't about what game(s) we're all fans of. This thread isn't about comparing FF's. This thread is about taking an objective look at FFVII, a game that still gets tons of hype and praise a dozen years after its release, and discussing whether the game is all it's cracked up to be.

Also, FFVII got (and still gets) more hype than every other FF other than whichever one is coming out soon.


It is surprising to me to see people argue over a game because someone said that the graphics were revolutionary or something? Why are people looking for eye candy?

It surprises you that somebody actually gives a shit about games and wants to see more good games in the future? I brought up the graphics because everybody else does, and the fact of the matter is, graphics really do matter, especially in a genre where immersion is one of the goals, such as jrpg's.

It may (or may not) interest you to know that I aspire to make a career in the video game industry, and I actually want to make good games. So while I complete my education, why not take the time to sharpen my ideas in a manner such as this?


People are 'roasting' eachother for liking a game which this forum is about? Just because they dont think that it is over rated?

Learn to spot a joke. Seriously.

Square has made some great games and there will always be a game that gets the public eye more than others. FF7 was a massive success for Square enix which makes it no surprise that they have made many spin offs of the game, and advent children...



What you may fail to understand cheema201, is that there have been numerous people who have joined this forum over the years and have gone on and on about how great FFVII is, that to not like it, you must be an idiot etc etc. They post idiotic reasons as to why they like it, or ask about rumors for the game which are true (which 100% of rumors about FFVII have been proven false), and in general irritate and cause no end of annoyance to the general population of the forum.

I don't hate FFVII per se, as the original FFVII I do like (not love, like), but unlike other hardcore, diehard fanatics (the ones who fit into what I said in my first paragraph), I do not treat it as the second coming of Jesus Christ which they do.

What you have to understand though... it's up to the individual to decide if they like the game or not. It's also up to that person how they react in response to the aforementioned fanatics who have popped up on this forum over the years and continue their tirade.

Imo, FFVII is overrated, the amount of hardcore fanaticism which has been posted here on this sub section of the forums, in violation of the forum charter for this section and it seems, just to annoy others who want to talk about certain specifics and not get caught up in the whole 'FFVII IS THE BESTEST EVAH BECAUSE...' debate.

If you like FFVII, congratulations. Just don't expect everyone else to feel the same as you do.

Well if people believe it is the best game ever i am sure that they will get bored of that eventually.

What i am interested in is what they could have done in FF7 differently for it to be deserving of the attention that it is given.. All that i have understood is that if the game had better graphics, a more flowing and understandable story and characters that were given specific classes then the game would not be over rated. Is that right?

Or is it the entire game that fails in most peoples opinion?



It may (or may not) interest you to know that I aspire to make a career in the video game industry, and I actually want to make good games. So while I complete my education, why not take the time to sharpen my ideas in a manner such as this?


Do you mean by good games ones which will sell big??

"The Sims" is the biggest selling game on the planet and it is such a terrible game.

Or are you looking to make games for the gameplay??

Seiken Densetsu 3 is for me the best game that i have ever played in terms of gameplay..

Or are you looking to make games with amazing graphics??

I have never looked at a game to play because it had the best graphics of its time.. but the FF series has never let me down on being up to date with graphics that i expect...

Learn to spot a joke. Seriously.

I learned how to spot Cyan from 5 miles away in a blizzard.

I learned how to spot Cyan from 5 miles away in a blizzard.

It's the aura of awesomeness you're spotting. And the fact that I'm fat and probably easy to spot.

Square has made some great games and there will always be a game that gets the public eye more than others. FF7 was a massive success for Square enix which makes it no surprise that they have made many spin offs of the game, and advent children...

Originally, the FF games where meant to be stand alones as they are. No spinoffs, sequels, prequels etc. That was what Hironobu Sakaguchi initially intended for the series. SE did all of that to FFVII, after they fired Sakaguchi from SE's board, and he then resigned on his own accord.


What i am interested in is what they could have done in FF7 differently for it to be deserving of the attention that it is given.. All that i have understood is that if the game had better graphics, a more flowing and understandable story and characters that were given specific classes then the game would not be over rated. Is that right?

At the time, FFVII was made with what was available at the time. Graphics don't make the game, imo they are just the icing on the cake. Story, Characters, Music, Gameplay are more important. Also, people's taste in games does change over time. Games I used to like a few years ago, now I can't stand. I haven't played FFVII in years, not since 2000-01 I think, and I have no intention to go back and play it. I do not like it anymore, due to multiple reasons, and also due to the fact that I've outgrown it. There are other RPG's I enjoy now more than FFVII, though in time, I'm willing to bet my tastes will change again. Everything changes over time.


Or is it the entire game that fails in most peoples opinion?

That is up to the individual themselves to answer.

I won't join in the discussion on what there's to loathe on FFVII, but about the graphics stuff...

Here are some videos of Final Fantasy VII:
Gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfTbFHFh9BU
Cutscene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hkcD8DyUO4

And now, here's clips from Panzer Dragoon, a game for the Sega Saturn that was released 2 years prior to FFVII:
Gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy7vXPsuGNc
Cutscene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-6dVdfIgEk

Keep in mind that Panzer Dragoon was released on 1 CD, and FFVII was released on 3 CDs. My problem with the graphics is that people call the visuals of FFVII revolutionary. Now, call me nitpicking, but I wouldn't call anything revolutionary if it isn't groundbreaking. The only "groundbreaking" thing for the graphics of FFVII was that it was the first Final Fantasy to have 3D graphics. Other than that, there were games that were released YEARS prior to FFVII and already had amazing graphics that probably could even stand up to games from a few years ago, and there also were RPGs that were released prior to FFVII and had better graphics than FFVII did.

Also, about the art style which was mentioned here - although the guy who said Nomura making the official art and character design more accessible to the "common person" is probably right, I wouldn't think that having the character design change to a flat anime design is "revolutionary" either.
Many big series go through a change in character designers, just look at bloody Castlevania, you'll find quite a bunch of official art designs.

I know all about Panzer Dragoon. And it's sequel which had even better graphics. They are indeed better than FFVII's graphics.

However (like you stated) Panzer Dragoon was only on 1 CD. Meaning that it's not such a big game. Graphics could easily fit in.

On the other hand FFVII is a HUGE game. Just thinking about all the things that are possible in that game makes me dizzy. FFVII could have had better graphics if it wasn't such an enormous RPG. 3 CD's (btw you say it's 4 CD's in your post) just means that there is a lot of material in FFVII. Graphics were at their best if you look at it like that. They just couldn't fit any better graphics at the time.

Thanks, typo with the 3/4 CDs.

Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't understand WHY the graphics of FFVII were inferior to a game like Panzer Dragoon's.
I'm saying that the FFVII graphics are by no means REVOLUTIONARY because that would mean it set a standard that every following game would try to reach, which FFVII, simply put, didn't. There were games and RPGs released prior to FFVII that had better visuals, and pretty much every game released afterward had. So there's nothing revolutionary, new or groundbreaking about FFVII's graphics, other than it's the first FF in 3D.

That's pretty much the only point I'm trying to make. FFVII did nothing for developing the graphics of RPGs, so calling the game's graphics revolutionary is wrong. They were okay for their time, but by no means revolutionary.

On the other hand FFVII is a HUGE game. Just thinking about all the things that are possible in that game makes me dizzy. FFVII could have had better graphics if it wasn't such an enormous RPG.

Forty hours for a playthrough isn't particularly large, even by 1997 standards. Pretty much all the time that's needed to blow up the Weapons is spent grinding, which requires very little extra storage space. The fact that FFVII was three discs had more to do with the storage limitations of CD's and the amount of storage space video files require than the scope of the game.


just means that there is a lot of material in FFVII. Graphics were at their best if you look at it like that. They just couldn't fit any better graphics at the time.

That's nonsense. FFVIII and IX "fit better graphics" in; they just required an extra disc to accommodate the storage requirements.

That's nonsense. FFVIII and IX "fit better graphics" in; they just required an extra disc to accommodate the storage requirements.

Or they learned to take better advantage of that space. Games for one console improve as time goes by. It's not that extra disc thats stored all the graphics, you know.

it was alright

/end debate

I won't join in the discussion on what there's to loathe on FFVII, but about the graphics stuff...

Here are some videos of Final Fantasy VII:
Gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfTbFHFh9BU
Cutscene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hkcD8DyUO4

And now, here's clips from Panzer Dragoon, a game for the Sega Saturn that was released 2 years prior to FFVII:
Gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy7vXPsuGNc
Cutscene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-6dVdfIgEk

Keep in mind that Panzer Dragoon was released on 1 CD, and FFVII was released on 3 CDs. My problem with the graphics is that people call the visuals of FFVII revolutionary. Now, call me nitpicking, but I wouldn't call anything revolutionary if it isn't groundbreaking. The only "groundbreaking" thing for the graphics of FFVII was that it was the first Final Fantasy to have 3D graphics. Other than that, there were games that were released YEARS prior to FFVII and already had amazing graphics that probably could even stand up to games from a few years ago, and there also were RPGs that were released prior to FFVII and had better graphics than FFVII did.

Also, about the art style which was mentioned here - although the guy who said Nomura making the official art and character design more accessible to the "common person" is probably right, I wouldn't think that having the character design change to a flat anime design is "revolutionary" either.
Many big series go through a change in character designers, just look at bloody Castlevania, you'll find quite a bunch of official art designs.

No one even begins to think about bringing up the Saturn because no one owned the fucking flop.

No one even begins to think about bringing up the Saturn because no one owned the fucking flop.

Hey, the Saturn had some good titles. Sakura Wars, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Virtual On: Cyber Troopers, Guardian Heroes as well as many others. Two of my personal favs: Mystaria: Realms of Lore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystaria) and The Lost Vikings 2: Norse by Norsewest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Vikings_2).

Though the latter were the only ones which were ever any good imo.

No one even begins to think about bringing up the Saturn because no one owned the fucking flop.

Shining the Holy Ark is still a great game, but it is the only reason I break out my Saturn these days. I thought the system was cool but was quickly disappointed with the scarcity of good games. I also remember being wowed with the graphics in Panzer dragoon.

Or they learned to take better advantage of that space. Games for one console improve as time goes by. It's not that extra disc thats stored all the graphics, you know.

The progression of graphics improving over time has very little to do with the storage space available on the media; that comes from dev's learning the tricks inherent to maximizing a system's particular GPU's performance. That being said, FFVIII and IX required an additional disc, yet the scope of the three games is pretty similar. Why else would the 'other two' games require a fourth disc?

Graphics though, imo, are just eye candy. Sure they look good, but aren't really essential to a good/great game. Look at games like Breath of Fire II (SNES version), Grandia (PSX), Skies of Arcadia (DC) for example, great games where the story outshone the graphics. Just my opinion though.

Although, there are some games I consider to be quite good and the graphics do enhance that. Shenmue and Shenmue II (DC). Everything seemed to flow together quite well in those two games, and the graphics enhanced that.