Isn't this thread a bit pointless Agent?
Only if you lack a certain kind of sense of humor, which Agent clearly seems to as he hasn't closed it. Your attempt at backseat-modding by calling it "spamtastical" failed.
And no, I say keep it here. Jarosik's post above me made me laugh so hard I almost ruptured my spleed, that' the POINT of this thread. The fact that there's another thread with a similar title next to it is what makes it, it would look dumb in GD an no one would understand why it was posted in the first place. I mean, not half the stuff in GD doesn't look dumb already, but it would ruin it if it was moved I think.
But like lame-Jarosik said, up to you. I guess we could talk about something.
Jarosik
08-26-2009, 09:43 AM
You outline that last part like it's a problem when it's in fact the reason it was posted in the first place.
It is a fact that this thread is a direct but poor attempt at humour on another serious thread. Perhaps you had nothing better to do.
Hi all.
I've been reading a lot of posts around this forum, and I keep hearing people state repeatedly that FFVII's plot holes are a reason the game is bad. I don't even want to get into the "is FFVII terrible or not" discussion, but I would like to hear what these purported plot holes are. I've played the game twice, although not recently, and cannot recall a single one.
Could someone please fill me in on this? Thank you.
chrono357 - But what weapons are left at that point? My memory of the game is hazy, but it seems like all of them are destroyed at this point. I do not count Emerald and Ruby weapon, because they were added in the American/International version of the game in an effort to make some harder extra content available for more hardcore gamers. But, even if there were still one or two weapons around at the time of the barrier's destruction, would they really try to attack Sephiroth at the point? How do they differentiate between threats? Wasn't the Sister Ray (the giant cannon that was fired to take out Diamond Weapon and the barrier) fired by taking in an enormous amount of Mako energy (planet lifeblood)?
I mention that last one because the Weapons don't seem all too intelligent regarding what they regard as threats, and would attack the location of the Sister Ray with full force instead of Sephiroth's location given the immense draw on the planet's lifeblood caused by the Sister Ray. By comparison, we aren't really sure what Sephiroth is doing that would actually draw the Weapons to him and mark him as a threat. He wants to be at the location where Meteor hits so he can draw the surge of defensive lifestream into his body and 'become a god', but how would the planet even know this? I don't think he would be considered a threat by the planet until this moment, causing any remaining Weapons to charge the Sister Ray until this time. And we wouldn't know, because our the characters under our control at in the North Cave at this point.
Therefore, I don't think that is a plot hole, merely leaving us to draw our own conclusions logically from the information given. A plot hole would be something that is completely illogical and has no explanation other than developer laziness/accident.
Neo Xzhan - Well, I thought that the explanation in the game was enough... I mean, do you really want to hear an explanation about how he can reproduce with other species? I sure don't. They drop hints like the ones mentioned earlier, but they don't want to get into some horrifying conversation from Bugenhagen to Nanaki about how a man wolf-creature and woman make a baby. And I am happy with that!
Final Fantasy 7 is not that bad. It isn't wonderful either.
Here is some issues of concern regarding plot "holes". I prefer to call them places where it just doesn't make sense.
1) How did Aeries' mother escape a high security facility that subdued Cloud's beastly crew?
2) Why was Aeries never captured during her time in sector 5? I assume one of the reasons is that she was dating Zack, who protected her. What about afterwards, while he was AFK for 4 years in a Mako Tank.
3) On that note, why was Zack in the Mako tank for 4 years in the first place? Mako did not affect him and he decided to break out during feeding time 4 years after he was captured. Huh? Why not earlier? He was fucking SOLDIER. Anyway.
4) How did Cloud survive a straight up Masamune stab? Let alone have the strength to throw Sephiroth into the Lifestream? If I recall, Zack got owned. And Cloud is like straight noob compared to Zack.
5) The entire thing about Chaos is like random backstory that was never expanded upon until later Final fantasy spinoffs. You shouldnt need spinoffs to explain events in the game.
Again, it isn't as much plot holes, as some shit just made no sense. Furthermore, you're wrong.
WEAPONS weren't awakened to kill Sephy. They were awakened to kill all of life and return as many souls to the lifestream as possible. This would give the lifestream the strength it needed to stop Sephiroth. Why did the planet not attack sephiroth directly with the weapons? EVEN THOUGH it had already known that Jenova was a threat and the planet was crying blah fucking blah. That would be a very obvious plot hole. The weapons are created by the planet for a purpose btw. It just doesn't make sense why it wouldn't attack sephy.
Hehe, you got me there. Most of those do not make much sense, although I'll still attempt to address them as best I can. But you are right; FFVII is certainly not perfect, but to a certain extent I don't think I personally would like it as much if it lacked certain ambiguous parts of the story. Oftentimes it is the least clear-cut games/books/movies that stick with you in the end and make you think.
1. Aeris' mother escape - There is no explanation for this. We receive no evidence that Ancients/Cetra have combat powers that would allow them to escape a high security facility, and even if they did, such a facility owned by Shinra would undoubtedly have information on these powers and how to overwhelm them. Other than heightened magical affinity, Aeris never exhibits much extraordinary powers, and using her as an example of all Cetra would indicate that there is absolutely no reason Ifalna should have been able to escape. And Shinra would certainly not discard her or let her walk away. Hence, this must be a plot hole.
2. Why was Aeris never captured - In the game it seems like there has been a short history of The Turks and Shinra trying to persuade and co-opt Aeris into joining them. Why they wanted her to join them willingly seems unclear though, and it seems rather convenient that the moment they choose to take her by force, Cloud happens to be there. However, we don't know how long Shinra has known of her being of Cetra blood, and thus it is possible that they haven't actually been looking for her for very long, which would excuse the fact that they didn't attempt to seize her until that point. While I haven't played Crisis Core, from what I've heard of it I've come to believe that Shinra just doesn't know about her while she's dating Zack. Or perhaps they don't become fixated on the Promised Land until the time period after Zack has captured/killed. But this is all unfounded conjecture, and thus would appear to be a definite area where it just doesn't make much sense.
3. Why did Zack not break out from the mako tank earlier - He was definitely in the Mako tank for 4 years, but I think this was because of him actually being in the Mako. It definitely did affect him. After all, that is how those in SOLDIER obtained their power. The difference between him and Cloud was that he successfully retained the power without undue damage to his mental faculties, and it is there where Cloud fails to succeed. And we don't actually know what being trapped in a Mako tank would be like. We don't know what properties exactly Mako has, and what it would do to someone immersed in it. It seems like it induces a coma, and it seems like it took Zack 4 years to shake it off. I'm personally satisfied with that explanation, but I do see how it is a questionable point.
4. How did Cloud manage to survive and defeat Sephiroth where Zack could not in Nibelheim - Well, this one is hard to answer because there are three different renditions of that event. We have the FFVII game, Last Order anime short, and Crisis Core. But, looking at just FFVII alone, we don't actually know how Zack fares against Sephiroth aside from getting overwhelmed in the end. He might have tired Seph just a little. But even if not, Cloud backstabs Sephiroth with the massive buster sword even before Cloud gets impaled by the Masamune. Thus, my argument would be that Sephiroth was almost certainly not on top of his game, allowing Cloud to use his Mako strength to fight the pain of being stabbed by a relatively small weapon (being punctured by the masamune would be a rather small slit through one's body versus a giant gaping hole by the Buster sword) and then to hurl an already injured and potentially tired Sephiroth into the pit below. I don't think Cloud is straight noob compared to Zack when it comes to strength, as the difference between them is their ability to deal with the strain on a mental level, not the physical. Thus, in this situation, a mako soaked idiot could finish the job started by Zack and hurl Sephiroth into the abyss. This seems right to me, but I would definitely be interested in any problem you see in that analysis.
5. What is the deal with Vincent and Chaos - Well, they explain Chaos and Vincent's transformations in FFVII as being the results of mako experiments by Hojo. That seems like a satisfactory explanation to me. Hojo was a sick bastard who did all sorts of shenanigans with mako on test subjects. I don't know what Dirge of Cerberus said about that, but I was totally satisfied with how it was explained in FFVII by itself.
As for the weapons, I know that they were released to kill all life to restore power to the lifestream, but they did seem to have some method behind that. After all, every single one of them seems to beeline for Midgar, and I think that is because they realize that as the biggest threat to the planet (because of its massive and constant drain on the lifestream). They don't recognize Sephiroth because his barrier removes him from their vision, which is why they did not attack him directly. That barrier that Sephiroth creates completely prevents them from doing anything about him. And once it is down, there isn't a single weapon left to do anything about it. The only odd exception is Ultimate Weapon, as it is up to the gamer whether to finish that one off for its loot or not.
A few clarifactions are in order here:
The WEAPONS were NOT designed to kill all life (with the exception of Omega Weapon in FFVII: Dirge of Cerberus, but we're only concentrating on the original game as canon for the time being), but rather they were originally created by the Planet as a last ditch defense system against Jenova. Iflana clearly states this in Gast's video records in his old house in Icicle Inn.
Because the remaining Cetra managed to defeat Jenova and confine her deep within the planet's crust however, the Weapons were no longer required, and remained in stasis, until Cloud gave the Black Materia to Sephiroth, and the resultant summoning of Meteor.
However, it's a little unclear as to why the Weapons started attacking human society rather than Sephiroth. A possibility could be that with all the degradation to the Planet caused by the Mako reactors, plus Jenova cells being implanted in many people, their sense could have become muddled. All they know is the Planet is in danger, and so they must protect it the only way they know how.
Interestingly, at least two of the Weapons (Sapphire and Diamond) directly attack a place where Rufus currently is located (Junon and Midgar respectively), so possibly, the Shinra must be considered a major threat to the Weapons that they must attack them, or rather, their leader. But that's just an assumption on my part.
As for why Aeris was never recaptured, this might have had something to do with Tseng. Once he found out about her whereabouts, he merely kept her under constant surveillance (it even mentions this in Aeris's character description in the manual for FFVII: Crisis Core). The reason for doing this might have been because of Aeris's mixed heritage (only being half-Cetra rather than a full-blooded one, there might have been doubts about the extent of her powers), so the Shinra might have decided to simply try a 'wait and see' approach with her instead of capturing her and holding her as a lab animal.
Or, the fact Tseng never bothered taking her into Shinra custody until the destruction of Sector 7 might have owed a lot to the fact that he secretly had feelings for her (this is clearly stated in game actually that he was attracted to her) - it had nothing to do with Zack's relationship with her, as Crisis Core showed. In fact, Zack never even knew her true identity as a Cetra, because Tseng deliberately kept it a secret from him.
But of course, this is all just personal opinion and assumption so I'm just rambling on here. :)
Yeah, that all makes a lot more sense, Enkidoh.
But, regarding the weapons, we seem to keep forgetting that Sephiroth deliberately erected a barrier with the weapons in mind in order to prevent them from recognizing where he was, which is the reason why they do not attack him. And once the barrier is down, there aren't any left except for Ultimate (maybe) and the Ruby and Emerald weapons which don't really count given their presence as extra content. Other than this point, I agree with your analysis of the facts here.
Yeah, I thought of Tseng with the whole Aeris thing, but at the same time we have to keep in mind that one scene where he displays her to the rest of the team via the helicopter above the Sector 7 pillar, and even smacks her if I remember correctly. I mention that because I don't think Tseng's potential affection by itself would stop Shinra's overall goal of obtaining Aeris. Consequently, it seems more to me that they had her under constant surveillance because they hadn't decided what to do with her yet, and just happened to go into aggressive 'take her' mode once Hojo started calling more of the shots and when Cloud happened to be present in the church at that time. To be honest, it isn't a terribly satisfactory explanation, but I do think that is definitely one of the areas where the plot just doesn't quite make sense, as Dragoncurry pointed out.
Thanks for those clarifications, though. I completely forgot about Gast's video recordings!
Here's a good one-- Rufus obviously loathed Heidegger and Palmer. Why didn't he fire them? Particularly Palmer.
Well, Heidegger was the head of the Shinra's 'Peace Preservation' (their military) so he at least had some use to Rufus.
Palmer on the other hand, was completely useless, being head of their defunct Space Program. He doesn't seem to do anything else in the company other than make stupid faces during board meetings and whine a lot. At least he had finally got given something to do when Rufus decided to use the rocket as a materia missile to destroy Meteor. But he still ended up being surplus to requirements.
In most likely hood though, the Japanese corporate tradition of keeping retrenched employees on the payroll, but moving them into a location where they just simply watch the time, in order to keep their dubious honour, applies with Palmer. But that's a long shot.
Well Rufus comes into power only as you are about to leave Midgar. So, I also imagine that he wants to keep these guys who are in the upper echelons in charge in order to get information from them about managing the company. After all, they were around under his father and even though they appear incompetent, they undoubtedly have a good sense of how Shinra works as a corporation.
As for Palmer in particular, he may have been useless, but I doubt Rufus ever gave him much thought beside him being a pest. After all, Rufus' attention is focused on everything but the space program throughout most of the game, which would explain why he doesn't fire Palmer. He simply wouldn't know about Palmer's uselessness because it isn't his priority to look for it.
And lastly, Darth Vader hated everyone, but this didn't have him executing or firing every commander of every star destroyer he happened across. Sometimes you make use of your underlings even if you privately hate their guts.
P.S. - The Japanese corporate tradition is also a very good argument!
Not getting caught up in this argument since I got tired of it years ago, but I'll snipe it with a pretty definitive hole.
Remember the bit where they're all leaving Midgar and conveniently decide that chasing Sephiroth, who most of the party know next to nothing about and who has done nothing more at that point than kill a guy who had it coming, is the way to save the planet? It's like the writers just had no idea how they could possibly explain Barret coming along, so they just made up some bullshit and hoped all the people playing the game were too young or stupid to notice.
:) Totally right, Prak
I actually got into this argument with some people on another board, but I eventually gave up, because it just isn't worth bothering with. If I wanted to, I could comb over the entire FFVII script with a comb and come up with a bunch of plotholes. But I don't see the point of it. And either way, I still like the game.
Oh, P.S.:
Yes, but Vader had scope over an entire Empire spanning a whole galaxy and rarely had to put up with the continued presence of any of those particular commanders for very long. But if somebody was as annoying to him as Palmer or Heidegger, I think he might have killed him. And Rufus had to put up with both, constantly. However, the other arguments regarding this point are good, though.
Prak - For the most part, I think that observation is right. I even went and looked at that part of the game, and they all seem like they don't know what to do now and will just go pursue Sephiroth because Cloud says, "I have a score to settle with him." Which is bullshit, because at this point Cloud doesn't even have the memory of being stabbed by him, thus making me wonder what 'score' he is talking about.
However, once they get to that next town (Kalm, I think it is), Cloud tells them about how Sephiroth's power is unimaginable, how he wipes out an entire town single handedly, and how he frees Jenova. Now it is pretty obvious at this point at this point in the game that Jenova is a pretty messed up entity that escapes in Shinra tower and receives some further backstory within Cloud's Nibelheim flashback. Also within the flashback, Sephiroth announces to Cloud/Zack how the entire human race are traitors and deserve to be wiped out for betraying whom Sephiroth mistakenly believes to be his people (the Ancients). This, in combination with his obvious power and 'alliance' with Jenova, would distinguish him as a pretty massive threat to the human population of the world, if not "The Planet" itself. Altogether, I think this definitely establishes some validity to their choice in pursuing him/Jenova as a danger, although it is definitely jarring to all of a sudden have the all powerful Shinra Corporation be replaced by this largely unknown character as the main enemy at this point in the game.
In short, you are right that it is a plot hole. But, in my opinion, it is one that is quickly taken care of fifteen minutes later in the game.
Agent0042 - Yeah, I'm not challenging everyone to comb over the plot for holes. I began this thread because I previously had no idea what people were talking about in other threads when they mentioned FF7 as being rife with plot holes, as these statements were never alongside any examples. I'm definitely learning now. And I thank you all for mentioning them, as it helps me understand that FF7's plot isn't immaculate.
As for Darth Vader... lol... yeah, I see your point. Having not played the game for some time, I didn't recall Palmer or Heidegger being around Rufus all the time. But, if they were, then I would definitely understand more the argument for killing them off. However, when it comes down to it, it really doesn't seem like Rufus was the type for spontaneously killing off those beneath him. In fact, I can't think of a single instance when he does that. Also, he seems to have loathed his dad, but never made any attempt to kill him off so he could grab power early (that I know of). He was just quick to take advantage of the opportunity created by Seph/Jenova when it arose.
I didn't say he had to kill them. I just said it seemed to me like he would fire them.
Serious posts right there.
But you were right about something. I shouldn't be trying to police you. I was just adding my two cents regarding the quality of this section of the board.
kouper
01-02-2010, 09:21 AM
I wonder how those funky motorbikes in Advent Children would have handled pot holes...
You know, it just hit me. Don't those motorbikes seem very similar to Batman's bike in The Dark Knight? I wonder if that's where they got the idea...
Well, I read most of the thread and rather jump in a rather riveting edition of "to fanboy or not to fanboy" as my first post on these boards, I choose to answer this question, after all this thread is about potholes and bikes is it not?
Well, i think those bikes, depending on how they are set up. As I am slowly in the process of figuring out how to build a bike somewhat inspired by Fenrir. i think, if you set it up so both of the front tires' suspension is fully independent the bike would handle small-medium potholes quite admirably. However, if they are set up with a more single joint type suspension, you'd be just as screwed as you would with a single tire, only you'd be under the false impression of safety. Quite the unfortunate surprise. I think the real problem would be the effect of a pothole on your steering, as thats the hardest issue I'm dealing with, (that and finding a suitable sized 2 cylinder boxer motor, but I might give in and go with a 4 instead, since scooby motors are so much cheaper then everything else I've seen)
So... uh.... Hi guys!
