Alan Silvestri - G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra [Archive]

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 07:53 PM

Whats wrong with guitar and syntheziers, it fits well with GI Joe's movie i presume.

Nothing's WRONG with it - but it's the action movie cliche. It's the Zimmer effect. I don't want to get into another "Zimmer sucks / no he doesn't YOU SUCK / Ah shut up asshole / Fuck you!" argument, believe me - I respect that people like the guy and his style is functional and it does the job... But that style of scoring is pretty much ALL that's done these days.

It's nice to see a score that is carried by the orchestra for a change. GI Joe could've been scored with a penny-whistle and a harpsichord and, if it were a good score, it would've fit. It's just that I think we've all seen quite enough bland, uninspired scores in recent years that consist of large orchestras playing bland, cliched chord progressions, accompanied by a wash of tired drum loops, electronic racket, slamming percussion, and a thousand-voice-choir chanting repetitively during "big" moments.

Silvestri is a guy with a musical education, a classical background, an understanding of the mechanics of the orchestra, the ability to write a good theme that serves the film and gets right under the skins of the characters and is a rollicking good listen on CD. He understands that scoring a film isn't just about synching up some music that superficially fits the scene.

I wish he'd get the chance to explore this side of his skill more often... And I wish he'd get asked to score some movies for reasons other than:

a) It's a sequel and he did the last one.
b) His mate is the director.
c) The guy they really wanted let them 24 hours before the release date and Silvestri was the only one who picked up the phone when they were desperately scouting around for replacements.

Sadly that's pretty much the way things are for Silvestri now. He doesn't get many opportunities at all. Because the MV/RC scoring technique has pretty much swallowed up all other styles.

Peace, gentlemen! :)

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 08:01 PM

Thats the same quality, uploaded by Laugiscore ;)

Edit: It's not a fake... The album was mastered from a lossy source. Absolutely shameful. Varese Sarabande are now pressing CDs sourced from MP3 files. Unbelievable.

Sirusjr

07-24-2009, 08:21 PM

Edit: It's not a fake... The album was mastered from a lossy source. Absolutely shameful. Varese Sarabande are now pressing CDs sourced from MP3 files. Unbelievable.
Man that sucks. At least it is high quality. Why would I want to support varese though if they release such lossy cds?

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 08:23 PM

Silva did it with Lesbian Vampire Killers as well. Either they've got people working for them who are dumb shits, or they just don't care about the quality of the product they're releasing any more.

Lens of Truth

07-24-2009, 08:27 PM

This is why I love this forum. Left to my own devices I'd have totally overlooked this score - what with Silvestri's recent blandness and the film being totally unappealing to me on every level.

Is it wrong that I like the electronics here too? ;)

Ordered!

Nothing's WRONG with it - but it's the action movie cliche. It's the Zimmer effect. I don't want to get into another "Zimmer sucks / no he doesn't YOU SUCK / Ah shut up asshole / Fuck you!" argument, believe me - I respect that people like the guy and his style is functional and it does the job... But that style of scoring is pretty much ALL that's done these days.

Perhaps Zimmer and all his 'style' just came along at the right time. I'd hardly blame him for what I see as a more all encompassing lapse of taste, aesthetic judgment (the very word seems so alien to modern sensibility!), of ART. Anyone even vaguely attentive to the visually expressive component of film will know that camera movement, lensing, editing, and composition in general (to say nothing of mise en scene) have slid just as far in the move towards a brash, homogenous style. Often it's comically bad, people just seem conditioned to accept it.

Indy 4 has recently been mentioned in another thread for its overuse of cgi - forgetting even that, it looks incredibly amateurish compared to the previous films (look at the overcontrasted, unatmospheric lighting; the sickly, cartoonish colours; the indifferent staging). Do it. Get the DVDs out and compare. It almost looks like a made for TV movie.

The whole industry is in the shitter at the moment. And what counts as 'arty' fare these days is just as crass..

..But yes.. Silvestri! Still a beacon of hope. More please!! :)

Edit:

The album was mastered from a lossy source.
OMG that's not to be believed! :(

eggerty

07-24-2009, 08:36 PM

Edit: It's not a fake... The album was mastered from a lossy source. Absolutely shameful. Varese Sarabande are now pressing CDs sourced from MP3 files. Unbelievable.

Do you have a source for this? Shocking if true.

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 08:36 PM

This is why I love this forum. Left to my own devices I'd have totally overlooked this score - what with Silvestri's recent blandness and the film being totally unappealing to me on every level.

Is it wrong that I like the electronics here too? ;)

Nope. I like them too. Whether it's electronics or none, you can still hear that you have a good score written by a talented musician.

Perhaps Zimmer and all his 'style' just came along at the right time. I'd hardly blame him for what I see as a more all encompassing lapse of taste,

The last time I suggested that Zimmer fans were experiencing a laspe of taste and a relaxing of standards... I was almost flamed off the board. Watch your step, my friend - this isn't the Orchestral Action Music thread any more. ;)

aesthetic judgment (the very word seems so alien to modern sensibility!), of ART.

What the hell is that? I haven't seen that in cinema (with a handful of exceptions) for twenty years.

Indy 4 has recently been mentioned in another thread for its overuse of cgi - forgetting even that, it looks incredibly amateurish compared to the previous films (look at the overcontrasted, unatmospheric lighting; the sickly, cartoonish colours; the indifferent staging). Do it. Get the DVDs out and compare. It almost looks like a made for TV movie.

Douglas Slocombe versus Janusz Kaminski. Visual artist versus imitator. Indy 4 spent so long trying to look like a good film, that it actually forgot to be a good film. It was a pastiche of the previous films. Instead of trying to make something good, they made something that looked superficially like another example of the genre that was good. Massive failure.

The whole industry is in the shitter at the moment. And what counts as 'arty' fare these days is just as crass..

I wonder if this will ever improve. It's not just the industry - it's the entire world, and more specifically, our country. Art is dead. Long live mass-consumption, high-speed gratification, lowest common denominator cookie cutter entertainment.

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 08:38 PM

Do you have a source for this? Shocking if true.

Yes - Laugiscore confirms that his Lossless rip came directly from his CD. Someone performed a spectral analysis that revealed half of the album exhibits certain frequency cutoff patterns that are hallmarks of MP3 encoding. (Brief technical explanation: In order to maximise bitrate available to the parts of the music that you can hear, LAME does a very good job at discarding the stuff you can't - this includes frequencies above 16khz. Human hearing isn't as sensitive to these frequencies as it is the lower frequencies. By cutting them off, LAME can spend the bitrate in places where human hearing is very sensitive. LAME does adaptive filtering - if it thinks that a particular burst of high frequencies (like a cymbal crash, or a high piccolo flourish) is important, it will keep that. That's why the spectral scans performed in the Lossless thread show large swathes with absolutely no frequencies above 16khz intact, with occasional bursts of higher frequencies. That pattern confirms a lossy source. (And almost certainly from MP3 - other codes don't exhibit these exact patterns.)

Sirusjr

07-24-2009, 08:43 PM

Lens, another movie that shows the terrible direction of recent directors is Public Enemies. Michael Mann filmed with a "digital HD" camera and it is so obvious and distracting when you watch the movie. I bet if I go and watch Collateral again (which he used the same camera for) I will notice the same.

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 08:49 PM

Hopefully this shit will stop soon. Filmmakers are obsessed with "look at what I can do with all this technology" right now and they're making movies to show off their new digital kit, instead of to tell stories. When people get bored of HD and CGI and all the rest of it, they'll start making cinema again - I HOPE.

Lens of Truth

07-24-2009, 09:04 PM

I wonder if this will ever improve. It's not just the industry - it's the entire world, and more specifically, our country. Art is dead. Long live mass-consumption, high-speed gratification, lowest common denominator cookie cutter entertainment.

Well I console myself with the thought that true Art is, by definition, something exceptional. It's the rarity of it that makes it so special. I realise this goes against the contemporary view that everyone is an artist waiting to happen, but there it is.

Sirus - I've been warned off Public Enemies by a friend who thought it was shit. And I have an aversion to Johnny Depp.

akbar56

07-24-2009, 09:06 PM

Sirusjr

07-24-2009, 09:14 PM

Sirusjr, your problem with Public Enemies seems more like a personal taste than an actual problem with the technology used. Thats like saying "I don't like this new painting by this artist because he used a different brush"

Can we please stop these discussions and keep them on topic to the music that we are here for?
First of all, I posted the album and I don't mind if this thread goes off-topic because that simply allows it to stay bumped and more people to listen.

Second, it is not just personal taste. It looks trashy whenever he zooms close or pans out far and looks amateurish. Some critics even said it looks like it was filmed on an i-phone.

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 09:19 PM

Sirusjr, your problem with Public Enemies seems more like a personal taste than an actual problem with the technology used. Thats like saying "I don't like this new painting by this artist because he used a different brush"

Can we please stop these discussions and keep them on topic to the music that we are here for?

Us having discussions don't stop you from downloading the music.

That's what a discussion forum is for. And I don't hear the original poster of this thread complaining - in fact, I see the good gentleman participating in the discussion. So what's your problem?

And, good job - you complain that we're talking (sacrilige, having a conversation - we must all be shot) and going off topic - but somehow that doesn't preclude you from sticking in a little "Only in YOUR opinion, which is worthless!" comment about Sirus' Public Enemies observations... ;)

cradub

07-24-2009, 09:21 PM

Man that sucks. At least it is high quality. Why would I want to support varese though if they release such lossy cds?

Yeah, exactly. I guess the only reason would be to get it at the original lossy lossless format. :-P

This is why I love this forum. Left to my own devices I'd have totally overlooked this score - what with Silvestri's recent blandness and the film being totally unappealing to me on every level.

Same here. I have zero interest in this movie, but I'm happy to hear the music may be its only saving grace.

akbar56

07-24-2009, 09:26 PM

Sorry, that is a personal taste. My personal taste loves it when a director uses a new piece of technology well and shows off it's abilities. Filmed on an Iphone? Those critics don't know shit all of what they are talking about. I've seen Public Enemies three times now and have loved it every time. I have seen nothing trashy at all when there is an ECU or anything. Digital HD is here to stay so get used to it. If it bugs you that much, go to goodwill and get yourself a pair of used glasses and watch through them so you can get the soft and crappy

@dannyfrench as well, this topic isn't the only place the discussion here lately has been veering off topic of music and people bitching about things they don't like in films. These forums (to me at least) are about the music in the films we love (and apparently hate now too.) Clogging these boards with annoying whining about what you think the business is doing wrong makes it hard to find links to download and it makes it even worse to have to wade through a discussion when you are looking for information about the music itself.

Don't like what Hollywood is doing? Don't go see the movies. Don't like a directors camera? Don't see his films. Don't like overuse of CGI? Stick to indie cinema.

Lens of Truth

07-24-2009, 09:39 PM

people bitching.. Clogging these boards with annoying whining.. Don't like what Hollywood is doing? Don't go see the movies. Don't like a directors camera? Don't see his films. Don't like overuse of CGI? Stick to indie cinema.

Woah there - I don't see the bitching element in any of the recent discussion. It was all perfectly straightforward AND relevant. What's more, Sirusjr has graciously given his approval. What would you have the forums be?

Mixed in with some of the opinions you find so repellant are comments about the score and useful info regarding the whole lossy issue.

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 09:39 PM

Akbar56: I'll ignore your charming little Personal Message in which you call me a whining little bitch (rest assured, I will report it immediately to the forum moderator) for now and just concentrate on what you are saying - which is dragging this discussion far, far further off topic than it ever had been before you came along!

Actually, no I won't - off topic spectacular. This is what Akbar didn't have the nuts to say to this thread in person:

why you gotta be such a little bitch?

My complaint about the discussion was not that there was a discussion going on, but more to the fact that it was a bunch of whining about things THAT ARE NOT RELATED TO THE SCORE/SOUNDTRACKS of the films.

My pointing out that sirusjr opinion was that of a personal taste was because he was spouting it out like it was an accepted fact and that everyone thinks that.

Having a discussion doesn't hurt anybody. Quite frankly - you're the one whining, and you're the one clogging up THIS THREAD. Stop it. The link is in the first post in the thread - if you have trouble finding THAT then I guess nobody can help you. If you're not interested in the discussion - do what everybody else does; take the download and bugger off.

I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say your particular brand of... attitude... isn't welcome in this thread.

Sirusjr

07-24-2009, 09:43 PM

Akbar56 - Keep in mind that I will post any "developments" that come up about the actual music in the first post, as I already did.

OrangeC

07-24-2009, 09:55 PM

http://rofl.wheresthebeef.co.uk/Thread%20Failed.gif

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 09:56 PM

Oh, that helps. ;)

Sirusjr

07-24-2009, 09:58 PM

Thanks I know i fail at thread making, thats why I have so many replies! :)

Nisuk

07-24-2009, 10:02 PM

Thank you so much for this score

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 10:09 PM

A weird thing is happening with GI Joe. I found myself humming the theme as I was cooking my dinner. I can't remember the last time I did that with a summer Blockbuster score...

Ecks927

07-24-2009, 10:15 PM

Thanks for this score, this might turn me into seeing the movie.

OrangeC

07-24-2009, 10:24 PM

Thanks I know i fail at thread making, thats why I have so many replies! :)

Its not as much the replies, its the comments.

arthierr

07-24-2009, 10:46 PM

Nope. Nothing wrong with the comments. It was a nice conversation between gentlemen until some people started complaining.

So bravo for this thread, for the interesting discussions, and for the nice gentleman who posted this!

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 10:48 PM

And bravo to you, sir. :)

ChazA4

07-24-2009, 11:20 PM

A weird thing is happening with GI Joe. I found myself humming the theme as I was cooking my dinner. I can't remember the last time I did that with a summer Blockbuster score...

*laughs* Just to clarify, you're talking about the cartoon theme? If you are, you're not alone.:D In fact, whenever someone says, "Now I know," I have to complete that line.

And Sirusjr, at least you GET replies!:) Take a look at some of my threads sometime...I swear I see tumbleweeds roll by.

Sirusjr

07-24-2009, 11:22 PM

*laughs* Just to clarify, you're talking about the cartoon theme? If you are, you're not alone.:D In fact, whenever someone says, "Now I know," I have to complete that line.

And Sirusjr, at least you GET replies!:) Take a look at some of my threads sometime...I swear I see tumbleweeds roll by.
Oh i know how that is for sure. Thankfully guys like Arthierr love my posts for the most part so i at least get his replies.

tangotreats

07-24-2009, 11:24 PM

*laughs* Just to clarify, you're talking about the cartoon theme? If you are, you're not alone.:D In fact, whenever someone says, "Now I know," I have to complete that line.

And Sirusjr, at least you GET replies!:) Take a look at some of my threads sometime...I swear I see tumbleweeds roll by.

Haha - sorry, I'm actually talking about Silvestri's movie theme. I'm not actually familar with the original theme...

Eshvoide

07-25-2009, 12:19 AM

I need to watch the movie first before I download this score, but if I like it, I know where to find it. ^_^

Sirusjr

07-25-2009, 12:36 AM

-post deleted by user-

into the storm

07-25-2009, 01:01 AM

Who's to say he is telling the truth that it is from a retail disc? Or who's to say it is an unfinished retail copy. Labels frequently send out CDR early copies to reviewers that is not always final quality.

Wait until we have a true retail disc before sending an email complaining that the CD you pirated isn't up to your standards.

Sirusjr

07-25-2009, 01:04 AM

If Dannyfrench says that his copy is the same, then that is as good as if I went over there and purchased it myself from the store. I "pirate" soundtracks to discern which ones I want to buy and in this case would have bought it if I didn't find out it was a lossy master. If nobody complains they will keep doing this in the future.

into the storm

07-25-2009, 01:05 AM

Sirusjr

07-25-2009, 01:08 AM

If you are happy waiting for it to happen again before you complain that is your choice. I'd prefer they realize the mistake before another high quality soundtrack is released from lossy masters.

into the storm

07-25-2009, 01:12 AM

Yeah, I and everyone else should be wary of Varese cheating me, a company that has been around since 1978 that has continously been providing high quality releases. I'll believe some pirate over them. :rollseyes:

Sorry, but I'll wait until a confirmed final retail disc is in my hands before I make final judgemet.

Sirusjr

07-25-2009, 01:15 AM

Well I would appreciate or somebody letting us know if it does turn out to be proper because I would love to buy this release. Of course if they reply to my email (which I don't consider very likely) then I will post that information here. Regardless, I include in my email that I consider them high quality specifically because it is true. I consider them high quality but for all I know they could master their cd from the same source as this. I would hope that not to be true but I don't know of any releases where the European version is lower quality than the Varese version. I believe Colosseum is part of Varese regardless.

cradub

07-25-2009, 01:23 AM

Two arguments in one thread. Wow. Nice. G.I. Joe must be a controversial score.

:loldata:

Joseph

07-25-2009, 07:06 AM

Indy 4 has recently been mentioned in another thread for its overuse of cgi - forgetting even that, it looks incredibly amateurish compared to the previous films (look at the overcontrasted, unatmospheric lighting; the sickly, cartoonish colours; the indifferent staging). Do it. Get the DVDs out and compare. It almost looks like a made for TV movie.

Um, Crystal Skull didn't use much CG at all. All of the stunts were done old-school, with real stunt men and cameras. The only sequence that really relied entirely on CG was the ending, but you might as well diss "Raiders" for using optical effects for the opening of the ark. I don't know about anyone else, but what I saw in theaters was a good old fashioned Indiana Jones movie. I've seen made for TV, and "Crystal Skull" was as far from that as you could get.

The whole industry is in the shitter at the moment. And what counts as 'arty' fare these days is just as crass..

There are a lot of good movies being made these days. So far this year we've seen movies like "Up," "Watchmen," "Public Enemies," "The Hangover," and "The Hurt Locker." That's to name a few. Try looking beyond "Terminator Salvation" or "Revenge of the Fallen."

What the hell is that? I haven't seen that in cinema (with a handful of exceptions) for twenty years.

You're serious? Through the period of 1989 to 2009, you have not seen more than a handful of films that could qualify as art? Really? I know a lot of critics who would disagree with you, but what's the use?

I'm astonished by the ignorance on display here. I don't think I could ever dismiss a decade's worth of work. Comparing an HD camera to an iPhone? Do you even know the first thing about shooting a movie? I'd hate to be all these people who whine about everything and see the merit in nothing. (Sorry, but this kind of thing just pisses me off.)

Ruffneck

07-25-2009, 07:26 AM

Daaaamn. What the fuck is going on here?

Oh yeah by the way thanks for the upload/link.

herbaciak

07-25-2009, 09:52 AM

Nice discussion here, about a lot of things;).

First aff all - there are still great movies. Most off them are far from cinemas though, but they exist. You just need to look. For example this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO0LYcCoeJY. Modern masterpiece IMO. And it used Beethoven's 7th before Knowing;P

Second: I love 4th Indy. It's dumb, and kinda too... shiny? U can't argue wiith that I guess. But it's also hella funny film. And Jones is charming as always. Yes, U can complain about CGi, monkeys, aliens etc. But let's be honest - why aliens are less realistic than Graal etc.? And Jones was never meant to be serious or realistic. Never. I love all movies with him and can't wait for 5th. Though true is true, some are better some are worse. My personal favourite - Last Crusade:).

Public Enemies. Yes, Michael Mann is annoying with his HD. It was nice in Collateral, also good in Miami Vice, but it doesn't fit the movie that action takes i 1930'. It's just distracting imo. Way too TV, looks like some kind of docu-drama. Mann is great director, but PE should be filmed old school style.

And now 'bout Varese. So they did a shitty thing by using mp3's on album. Yes, it's shameful. Yes it's a lie against buyers. But one little thing - who will actually notice that? Yes, some piece of software noticed it. But listeners? I'm not talking 'bout audiofreaks, I'm talking about normal listener. I'm not trying to justify Varese, 'cause it would be dumb. It's just... only few people will actually hear this sucking quality, but now everyone will say:it sounds shitty cause it was made of mp3 blah blah, and they heard it suppose to sound shitty... so it sounds;).

And maybe I'll try G.I. Joe score, but after all never was Silvestri fan;).

Lens of Truth

07-25-2009, 10:05 AM

I’d like to apologise in advance for the off-topic content of this post!
Um, Crystal Skull didn't use much CG at all.
Well I actually didn’t discuss the cgi – in fact I started by sweeping that issue under the carpet – so that is the first of your misapprehensions. Computer generated gophers, monkeys, mushroom clouds, jungles, waterfalls, spaceships and ant armies are the least of its problems anyway. Admittedly, ‘almost like a made for tv movie’ was hyperbole, but I maintain there is a clear difference in the visual syntax of KOTCS vs the rest.

There are a lot of good movies being made these days. So far this year we've seen movies like "Up," "Watchmen," "Public Enemies," "The Hangover," and "The Hurt Locker." That's to name a few. Try looking beyond "Terminator Salvation" or "Revenge of the Fallen."
Hmmm, yeah.. because you have to look so far beyond the mainstream to discover films like Watchmen and Up!! Sheesh! It sounds here like you’re attacking me here for a naivite that I don’t posses. I’m well aware that T4 isn’t the be all and end all, and I can’t think what in my post lead you to this imagined characterisation.

The last film I saw at the cinema that I liked was Gran Torino. Stylistically it’s utterly conservative, but that works in its favour. Enjoyed Waltz With Bashir too – some quite poetic imagery, though in the service of an obvious message.

Off the top of my head, in the last 20 years I’ve been profoundly moved by films like Inland Empire, Elogue de l’amour, Satantango, The Werkmeister Harmonies, A ma soeur, Elephant, Dogville, Edward Scissorhands, Crash (Cronenberg), Pulse (the Kurosawa original), Tokyo Sonata, and quite a few Miyazakis too :)

I’m not a fan of pumped, post-ironic superhero posturing, or the ‘all-things-to-all-people’ plastic visions of Pixar. But I don’t deny that they can be very entertaining.

I’m sorry if my post came across as distasteful or snobbish, and this has in some way frustrated or offended you. BUT I am entitled to my views. And it’s hardly your role to go around making accusations of ignorance.

I love 4th Indy. It's dumb, and kinda too... shiny? U can't argue wiith that I guess. But it's also hella funny film. And Jones is charming as always.
Thank you for this pleasant, good natured post! It cheered me up after the vitriol above. You're absolutely right about Harrison still having the charm to keep the whole thing together, and, of course, it's not a film to take too seriously :)

I don't think GIJoe is going to convert you btw if you're not a fan of Silvestri. We may have oversold it somewhat. Worth a listen though.

Victor007

07-25-2009, 02:17 PM

thank you

dkj

07-25-2009, 02:24 PM

So, is it any good?

TREKmaniacX

07-25-2009, 02:27 PM

So, is it any good?

Read the posts above :D

Sirusjr

07-25-2009, 03:27 PM

And now 'bout Varese. So they did a shitty thing by using mp3's on album. Yes, it's shameful. Yes it's a lie against buyers. But one little thing - who will actually notice that? Yes, some piece of software noticed it. But listeners? I'm not talking 'bout audiofreaks, I'm talking about normal listener. I'm not trying to justify Varese, 'cause it would be dumb. It's just... only few people will actually hear this sucking quality, but now everyone will say:it sounds shitty cause it was made of mp3 blah blah, and they heard it suppose to sound shitty... so it sounds;).

I guess because I fit into the category of noticing it was subpar I don't get to suggest that the general public would notice the difference because they probably wouldn't. Still, who the hell cares. The general public is satisfied with 128kbps mp3s for the most part and more than satisfied with paying for lossy music through itunes. Just because some people wouldn't notice the quality loss if nobody told them doesn't make it right for a studio to master a CD from lossy source.

I and many other people in this thread rely on the quality of a CD I buy because it is the only way to purchase lossless music (besides one or two digital distribution sources online that sell FLAC). Sure mp3s sound great to me now and sometimes I find it hard to discern the difference between the MP3 and FLAC.

However, I don't plan to listen to music on the same equipment I have now forever. I am currently on the way to hopefully getting a high paying job after my schooling ends in a few years and one of the first things I want to purchase is some seriously high quality headphones and speakers that make what I have right now sound like tinny laptop speakers. When that happens, I can assure you that the difference between MP3 and CD will be like night and day and any lossy sourced CDs (Hopefully of which I will have none thanks to this awesome forum) will be put to shame by other superior recordings. The crazy thing is that I could already somewhat tell that this CD was from a lossy source based on the general low volume of the score even when the action cues reach their loudest and overall sound that is worse than most high quality MP3 rips.

While this may sound like a far off comparison, making subpar cds because the general public can't tell the difference (or at least we believe so) is like film makers making trashy movies (depending on your tastes transformers 2 and Terminator 4 to name a few) because the general public isn't discerning enough to realize that the movie in front of them is trash. It is just as inexcusable there as it is here only there aren't as many critics who listen to and review film scores who would publicly announce their distaste for this lossy mastered score.

Ruffneck

07-25-2009, 03:45 PM

Read the posts above :D

Better yet, just download it and form your own opinion ;)

TREKmaniacX

07-25-2009, 03:47 PM

Better yet, just download it and form your own opinion ;)

i did, look at page 1 ;) there is also a review from dannyfrench.

ChazA4

07-25-2009, 06:30 PM

You know, as a comparison piece to Sirusjr's complaint:

Let's say you give your wife/husband a ring with a huge diamond on it. Now, she goes to a jeweler's to have it checked out for insurance purposes, and finds out it's a cheap cubic zirconia. She wouldn't have been able to tell without someone telling her the difference. Do you think that's going to change how mad or disappointed she gets with you?

Same concept here. Studios don't want to use the diamond(lossless source), so they try to give us a cheap zirconia(128Kbits MP3s). Whether we can tell the difference without someone pointing it out to us is irrelevant...we don't have what we thought we had and/or paid for.

Grunthor

07-25-2009, 08:11 PM

Thanks for this OST :)

herbaciak

07-25-2009, 08:20 PM

While this may sound like a far off comparison, making subpar cds because the general public can't tell the difference (or at least we believe so) is like film makers making trashy movies (depending on your tastes transformers 2 and Terminator 4 to name a few) because the general public isn't discerning enough to realize that the movie in front of them is trash. It is just as inexcusable there as it is here only there aren't as many critics who listen to and review film scores who would publicly announce their distaste for this lossy mastered score.

I know that T2 is trash. But I still had a lot of fun during it;).

Same concept here. Studios don't want to use the diamond(lossless source), so they try to give us a cheap zirconia(128Kbits MP3s). Whether we can tell the difference without someone pointing it out to us is irrelevant...we don't have what we thought we had and/or paid for.

Till I think that I have, what I actually think I have (is this clear?:)), and by myself I can't tell any difference, than I don't care. But when someone would actually say the truth about my "thing", then... well, heads would fly;). But I won't kill anyone for 40 dollars. I think;).

Still. I'm not trying to say that it's not a big deal. Cause it is big deal. It's inexcusable. Varese actually sells an Itunes quality for much more money. It sucks. But after all I really don't care, cause I just can't hear any difference. Call me crazy.

Joseph

07-25-2009, 08:31 PM

Hmmm, yeah.. because you have to look so far beyond the mainstream to discover films like Watchmen and Up!! Sheesh! It sounds here like you’re attacking me here for a naivite that I don’t posses. I’m well aware that T4 isn’t the be all and end all, and I can’t think what in my post lead you to this imagined characterisation.

I wouldn't argue that "Watchmen" is mainstream. It didn't make much more than $100 million, and a lot of mainstream audiences didn't like it. "Up" certainly qualifies as mainstream, but it's still an example of a great movie made in the last year. My guess was that (like a lot of people) you assumed that whatever's at the multiplex is the extent of modern cinema, and therefore because that mostly sucks then modern cinema mostly sucks. If you don't think that, then I misjudged you.

I’m sorry if my post came across as distasteful or snobbish, and this has in some way frustrated or offended you. BUT I am entitled to my views. And it’s hardly your role to go around making accusations of ignorance.

To be fair, my accusations of ignorance were aimed at DannyFrench, who made the comment in which twenty years of cinema were dismissed. You seem like a fairly nice and well informed guy, although I think you're very dismissive.

NIN Dark Knight

07-25-2009, 08:33 PM

Looks like the original Rapidshare link went down already.

Sanico

07-25-2009, 10:03 PM

I can't speak for him, but I doubt that Alan Silvestri knows that they are selling his music not from an original master, but actually from a lossy one. From an artist point of view they want his work to be fully appreciated in the highest quality form, not from a copy that this is.
Will the music used and heard in the movie are from lossy tapes? Of course not, or at least very unlikely.
And from a listener point of view and potencial consumer (a CD in this case), I want my final product to come in the best quality a CD can support, otherwise is dishonest from the part of who sells the CD.

ReverseGravity

07-26-2009, 12:19 AM

Looks like the original Rapidshare link went down already.

yeah, its been removed.

Sirusjr

07-26-2009, 01:11 AM

For this one I ask somebody who downloaded it re-upload if they can.

TREKmaniacX

07-26-2009, 01:33 AM

I'll re-up now.

TREKmaniacX

07-26-2009, 02:15 AM

New Link:

Download:

http://rapidshare.com/files/260061065/gi-joe-cobra_ffs_sc.rar

Password:

bi0f0raLL

Firefly00

07-26-2009, 03:07 AM

AHHHHHHHHH!

-elaboration redacted-

Yes, that sounds about right; this soundtrack is going on the things-to-buy list.

Sanico

07-26-2009, 07:43 PM

So this is why they included the lossy records on CD.. ? :)

Sirusjr

07-26-2009, 07:49 PM

So this is why they included the lossy records on CD.. ? :)

Hahahaha

tangotreats

07-26-2009, 08:24 PM

Wow, I've missed a lot - sorry, I've been busy going to the most underwhelming concert of my life! (More in the classical thread, I suspect...)

Anyway, just a few points in no particular order:

spaceworlder: I know we didn't get off on the right foot in the Wolverine thread, but I don't know what I have done to deserve your wrath this time. This should be obvious by now, but I am entitled to my opinion, as are you, and in any case, I didn't say all films in the last 20 years were shit. I said, "With some exceptions I haven't seen any big Hollywood Blockbusters that could count as works of great art, in the last 20 years."

You went on to cite Watchmen (a film I despised,) accused me of ignorance, and then took my comments completely out of context so that they meant something more like "Every film is shit." Not true.

You were witnessing a conversation between two people - I'm not saying your contribution wasn't welcome, but I don't think Lens Of Truth was writing for the wider audience - he was writing pretty much in response to me, as I was. Part of the joy of banter is that you often miss out information, or through your use of shorthand it seems to another party that you meant something different.

Just to clarify once more - whereas in the past, we had great cinematographers (like Doug Slocombe) working on Blockbuster movies (Superman, Indy, whatever) and they were making art. Now, this doesn't happen so much. From the nineties to the present day, there hasn't been a great deal of blockbuster movies made to this level of artistic integrity. That isn't to say they're all rubbish or that I didn't enjoy them - merely an observation about the modus operandi employed by the filmmakers.

Please, before you start spreading around your accusations of ignorance and vitriol, try approaching people with respect and courtesy, and a desire to understand - it will make for a far, far more pleasent environment. :)

Now, can we please be friends? I'm sick to death of this arguing.

LOSSY MASTERING

To the people who are saying "Lossless is only important to audiophiles, what are you complaining about?" I do understand what you mean. But a CD is a lossless medium. Putting lossy sourced music on a lossless medium is a lie. True enough, most people won't notice it, but that's hardly the point. I buy a CD instead of listening to a download because I have a certain expectation. So does everybody else.

This "it's good enough, what are you moaning about?" attitude is all well and good, but it encourages slipping standards. What next? The next disc is sourced from 128kbps MP3. The next one is from 96kbps MP3. The next one is in mono. Stop whingeing, don't be a snobbish audiophile! See what I mean?

A compact disc holds music losslessly. Putting something on there that has been through compression already - REGARDLESS OF HOW IT SOUNDS, or how good you perceive it to sound - it is an inferior product, and points to a distinct lack of care and quality control at the manufacturers.

Of course, it may be a dumb mistake - you're right, I can't see Varese doing this on purpose. But it's still a mistake, and one which should be rectified. People should NOT be reprimanded for voicing this expectation.

As to why it happened... GI Joe had some last minute re-scoring about six weeks ago, if memory serves. That means that there was probably a bit of a rush getting the album out on time. That, combined with a simple human slip up, I suspect is the cause of this particular mistake. They have deadlines to meet and sometimes it comes down to "Release it NOW or you'll miss the deadline, and you'll have to cancel the release" - sooner than throw all of the preceeding efforts down the toilet, they release what they have. It's a shame, but sometimes it has to happen - it's the lesser of two evils.

[EDIT: Most of the music was recorded in January, with another catch-up session in late April, recorded in a different studio. I'll bet you all a warm English beer that the tracks on that CD that were lossy-sourced came from the catch-up session.]

I expect Varese will make good on this, and I also think they'll explain what happened. I do NOT for one moment think this was an intentional attempt to dupe us into having some second rate product. It's a screw up, and one which they will feel suitably embarassed about.

Let's have a bit less of the Varese hate - they're a wonderful record company with a thirty year history of quality. I know I was a bit harsh on them earlier on in this thread, but I was wrong - and I thank the people who've stuck up for them. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. They're human beings and they slipped up. It's hardly unforgiveable when you consider the hundreds and hundreds of impeccable releases they've made over the years. :)

Over and out. :)

Sirusjr

07-26-2009, 08:39 PM

Let's have a bit less of the Varese hate - they're a wonderful record company with a thirty year history of quality. I know I was a bit harsh on them earlier on in this thread, but I was wrong - and I thank the people who've stuck up for them. They deserve the benefit of the doubt. They're human beings and they slipped up. It's hardly unforgiveable when you consider the hundreds and hundreds of impeccable releases they've made over the years. :)

I agree. I didn't mean to suggest that Varese is anything but a great company. I need to listen to the album some more to decide if I truly want to buy it or if the "lossy" sourcing is bad enough to stop that. I love to support high quality soundtracks such as this. That was my main reason I started buying soundtracks beginning with Mongol. Although you are right that unless this is something that happens again there is no reason to distrust Varese as a label.

tangotreats

07-26-2009, 10:06 PM

Indeed. :)

Just a thought - no doubt there is a lot more lossy audio around in the studios than there used to be. Obviously they are encoding MP3s all the time in the course of their work - studios want them for signing off, composers want them to see how the sessions are going, record companies want them so they know roughly what's going to be on the album, reviewers get them for pre-release listening, etc, etc, etc. It makes a lot of sense to use lossy in the rough stages of assembling an album - where no doubt there is a lot of remote working going on.

Just like film editors used to do their actual editing on crappy-quality prints so they wouldn't bugger up the original negative running it through the Movieola a million times - when all the cuts were set in stone, then they started to work on the actual negative.

I suppose that mistakes are more likely to occur now that there is all this audio floating around that, with only a cursory examination, all looks the same. With the number of people working on a release, combined with the corporate workflow, and the unmanageable deadlines - it's not surprising that there's a major balls-up like this every now and again. It's a testament to their dedication that it doesn't happen more often.

Joseph

07-27-2009, 12:43 AM

spaceworlder: I know we didn't get off on the right foot in the Wolverine thread, but I don't know what I have done to deserve your wrath this time. This should be obvious by now, but I am entitled to my opinion, as are you, and in any case, I didn't say all films in the last 20 years were shit. I said, "With some exceptions I haven't seen any big Hollywood Blockbusters that could count as works of great art, in the last 20 years."

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it any less ignorant or dismissive. To look at twenty years of cinema and say "with some exceptions" (whatever that means) that none could qualify as "great art," is heinously ignorant to me. Also note that you didn't make the "big Hollywood blockbusters" distinction in your last post, not that it makes the statement any better.

That combined with your self-appointed position of FFShrine's "Czar of Music" is why I'm pissed. You've contributed nothing to either this forum or to culture in general, and yet you casually talk shit about everyone and everything. Then, when someone dares to stand up to you, your little lackeys come out of the woodwork to put down the opposition.

You went on to cite Watchmen (a film I despised,) accused me of ignorance, and then took my comments completely out of context so that they meant something more like "Every film is shit." Not true.

Once again, you can't make a simple response without shitting on something. You not only talk about me taking your comments completely out of context (not true), but you also make sure to let everyone know that you despised "Watchmen." I sometimes wonder if you are some kind of reject critic who can't find a real platform for his criticism at a website or newspaper, so he just posts it on a random message forum.

You were witnessing a conversation between two people - I'm not saying your contribution wasn't welcome, but I don't think Lens Of Truth was writing for the wider audience - he was writing pretty much in response to me, as I was. Part of the joy of banter is that you often miss out information, or through your use of shorthand it seems to another party that you meant something different.

Yes, so instead of having your "banter" in a private message exchange, you post in a public topic for everyone to respond to. That makes sense.

Just to clarify once more - whereas in the past, we had great cinematographers (like Doug Slocombe) working on Blockbuster movies (Superman, Indy, whatever) and they were making art. Now, this doesn't happen so much. From the nineties to the present day, there hasn't been a great deal of blockbuster movies made to this level of artistic integrity. That isn't to say they're all rubbish or that I didn't enjoy them - merely an observation about the modus operandi employed by the filmmakers.

I see fantastic cinematography every year at the cinema. I think your problem is that you are incapable of liking anything that's modern. This is reflected in your dismissal of Hans Zimmer, and now it's also reflected in your dismissal of movie-making in the past twenty years.

Please, before you start spreading around your accusations of ignorance and vitriol, try approaching people with respect and courtesy, and a desire to understand - it will make for a far, far more pleasent environment. :)

I have no desire to "understand" someone who honestly thinks that some kind of artistic integrity mysteriously vanished in movies at the turn of the 90s. I also have no desire to understand people who compare high-definition filming to "shooting something with your iPhone." It's laughable to see people shitting on someone like Michael Mann in such a fashion and then turning to me and expecting "respect and courtesy." For what?

Sirusjr

07-27-2009, 01:09 AM

My comment about the Iphone is taken directly from the review from Time Magazine for Public Enemies,
"Shot and projected digitally instead of on film, the picture gains in gradations of night shades but loses in visual clarity. Some shots look like iPhone photos enlarged to 50 feet; any sharp camera movement results in a blur. The same has to be said for the movie. It lacks overall focus, and at the end you may have a question for Michael Mann: Why'd you bother?" Full review here (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1907150,00.html)

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 01:37 AM

You know, all the stuff I wrote was really great, but it doesn't need saying. Everybody here knows this guy is talking puff, and to be honest all I want is for him to give up his quest. Once again, I'll be a man and walk away from this one. He wants a flame war and I'm not going to give it to him - I have too much respect for you all, and for this thread to allow it to become further derailed - and all I want is to be left alone.

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 01:51 AM

Edit: I have now reported this nonsense to the moderators and I would urge all the good people in this thread to do the same. Do it so we can get this back on track and start talking about relevant subjects - and not become distracted by somebody's personal vendetta. :)

Joseph

07-27-2009, 03:11 AM

I didn't derail this topic by bringing up cinematography or "Public Enemies." The people who did are the ones who should be reported.

Biggs v.2

07-27-2009, 05:24 AM

Just to divert the classic DannyFrench vs. Everyone else is wrong and he is right argument for a second

*winks*

....unquestionably one of the BEST soundtracks of the year! Consider this pre-ordered and in the mail! Brilliant work from Mr Silvestri!

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 08:30 AM

hater

07-27-2009, 11:28 AM

Amen to that! We didn't get off on the right foot either but thank you for your understanding.

Whatever issues there are with the sound quality, this is one score that keeps on giving - yes, even the electronics - and I don't think you'd regret having it in your collection. It's odd (and quite lovely) how Silvestri has suddenly regressed fifteen years. I was really disappointed with Beowulf, and I was slightly concerned that it was going to be his new style. But suddenly, with GI Joe, all that is gone - and we're back with old Alan Silvestri, the frenetic action writer, the themesmith, the rousing symphonist. :D

the theme is a little simpler as normally, but put to good use, lots of differnt varaitions and the stand-out end credit version is just sweet. also, i guess there is only a motiv for cobra because they aren�t even cobra yet.at the end everything comes in place with a cliffhanger.

Primal-One

07-27-2009, 11:29 AM

Thanks for sharing this!

Ruffneck

07-27-2009, 11:51 AM

Maaan. I've been sitting at the bar through the time at this party. Drinks are great here.

*More tequila here please...*

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 12:47 PM

the theme is a little simpler as normally, but put to good use, lots of differnt varaitions and the stand-out end credit version is just sweet. also, i guess there is only a motiv for cobra because they aren�t even cobra yet.at the end everything comes in place with a cliffhanger.

INdeed - it's certainly not Silvestri's most elaborate theme, but it's still a fine one - particularly in this largely themeless, texture-not-melody world we're currently in.

I don't get all this "Character doesn't deserve the theme until they become great" - nice idea, but it just seems like an excuse to write a film score that is completely unsatisfying.

Imagine if John Williams had adopted that viewpoint in Superman. Ole' Supes got a five minute fanfare, rousing heroic march, and a tender and glimmering love theme - all before we'd even SEEN him on screen! ;) He wasn't particularly Super until much later on in the film - unless you count being naked, and helping somebody change a tyre. The theme belong to the CONCEPT of Superman, not to Superman himself. It's a bizzarely linear attitude to music. Anyway, I digress - my apologies.

I cheered for the End Credits because... finally, the motif becomes a melody. And one that lasts longer than two bars and has some accompaniment besides cliched block chords and taiko drums. You get a lovely statement of the theme on brass, which seems like the "call" - and then the strings enter and play a countertheme that is certainly the "response" - a lovely, if a little short (I guess the rest of the credits will be needle-drop popular tracks) but nevertheless, a symphonically structured, composed-to-order, theme and variations for full orchestra, during the End Credits of a summer blockbuster! Bravo, Mr Silvestri - and also to the director and studio who allowed him to get away with that.

May this be another slight example of turning tides (Brian Tyler and his surprisingly good Dragonball, Giacchino's flawed but good-intentioned Star Trek, Beltrami's powerful Knowing were all life buoys floating in a rough sea of derivative dreck) and a sign that good film music isn't dead, it's just been sleeping. And just as it did with John Williams in the 1970s, it will rise up more powerful and more relevant than ever before. :D (I should write speeches.)

Joseph

07-27-2009, 02:30 PM

Having listened to the "End Credits" track, I have to say that this is a nice score. However, I wouldn't call it the musical savior that DannyFrench proclaims it to be. "Up" trumps this. So does Tyler Bate's "Watchmen."

Imagine if John Williams had adopted that viewpoint in Superman. Ole' Supes got a five minute fanfare, rousing heroic march, and a tender and glimmering love theme - all before we'd even SEEN him on screen! ;)

That's because the movie started with an elaborate opening credits sequence. The full-on heroic theme is never stated in the story itself until the helicopter rescue.

hater

07-27-2009, 02:51 PM

the other kick-ass score with fantastic end credit suite is ice age 3.oh how i love the rescue sequence with the air battle.
and drag me to hell is goosebump inducing.
watchmen a great score? i only noticed some very bad used songs. Tyler Btale only good (and this is far from being great) score is Doomsday. (Movie is pure mindless Action-Fun with tons of Gore, and the worst edited swordfighting in the history of ever. trying to achiev a world record in fast editing?)

Joseph

07-27-2009, 03:00 PM

I absolutely loved the music for "Watchmen." This one sequence sounded like something straight out of "Blade Runner." On the non-score side of things, closing the movie with "First We Take Manhattan" was bad ass.

Now that I've heard more tracks, I'm bumping "G.I. Joe" to one of the best scores of the year. Still not feeling the "musical messiah" thing, but it's another kick ass score from Silvestri. I wish Danny Elfman would have done something this good with "Terminator."

Sirusjr

07-27-2009, 03:17 PM

The importance of G.I. Joe is that even when it has synthesizer and electronic pulse in tracks, you can still hear the orchestra. It is as if the orchestra is complemented by the synth rather than the synth overpowering the orchestra for the sake of being loud and epic.

I can't comment on blade runner themes because I haven't been able to find a version of the soundtrack that is without dialogue but Vangelis was able to make synthesized score sound a hell of a lot better than Tyler Bates. I don't think Watchmen would have been as much of a problematic score if Bates hadn't used a full orchestra. The inclusion of an orchestra is great but only when it is respected and not overpowered.

Also compare the Phillip Glass tracks in Watchmen to the rest of the soundtrack and you will get a better idea how to use the keyboard effects. I don't mean to suggest that there is something wrong with enjoying the soundtrack to Watchmen, simply that it could have been a lot better if the same pieces were created with better balance and the orchestra could be heard rather than hidden.

Joseph

07-27-2009, 03:28 PM

I don't care about "orchestra" this or "synthesizer" that. The music in "Watchmen" sounded great to me, and it complemented the images effectively. I found it to be a nice listening experience in my 'Windows Media Player' too. People who ramble about orchestras and "classical" training sound like the old guy who complains about those "youngsters and their rock 'n' roll."

Not that I hate music that sounds classical. I just don't care for dismissing modern scores just because they're modern or made by people with a different musical background than Jerry Goldsmith.

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 03:51 PM

Having listened to the "End Credits" track, I have to say that this is a nice score. However, I wouldn't call it the musical savior that DannyFrench proclaims it to be. "Up" trumps this. So does Tyler Bate's "Watchmen."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's the best thing ever - merely that it's very good in its own right. Agree that "Up" knocks this out of the water, but then Up was the kind of film that seems to... accomodate that sort of score a lot better than GI Joe - a typical action flick. (Which I am going to see as soon as it arrives in cinemas!)

That's because the movie started with an elaborate opening credits sequence. The full-on heroic theme is never stated in the story itself until the helicopter rescue.

True, very true. It was still nice to actually get the theme in more of a "Draw you into the world of the movie" sense rather than just simply to be a heroic theme for Superman being heroic. Once again, with exceptions, the elaborate main title sequence is something of a rarity today. Great shame - I really enjoyed that kind of thing. :)

Now that I've heard more tracks, I'm bumping "G.I. Joe" to one of the best scores of the year. Still not feeling the "musical messiah" thing, but it's another kick ass score from Silvestri. I wish Danny Elfman would have done something this good with "Terminator."

Too right. Terminator could've been so much more and we know Elfman is up to it. Then again, it could've outright sucked, so from that perspective it's still worth a listen from time to time. I really wish, as far as Terminator was concerned, that somebody would do the brave thing, go to Brad Fiedel's house, offer him a big pot of money, and BEG him to score it. Of course it'll never happen, but a man can dream. He pretty much retired some years ago. Shame.

The importance of G.I. Joe is that even when it has synthesizer and electronic pulse in tracks, you can still hear the orchestra. It is as if the orchestra is complemented by the synth rather than the synth overpowering the orchestra for the sake of being loud and epic.

Absolutely. A solid score with good ideas, and with synthesiser accompaniment, not dominance.

I don't care about "orchestra" this or "synthesizer" that. The music in "Watchmen" sounded great to me, and it complemented the images effectively. I found it to be a nice listening experience in my 'Windows Media Player' too. People who ramble about orchestras and "classical" training sound like the old guy who complains about those "youngsters and their rock 'n' roll."

I don't think anybody is saying that classical training is NECESSARY for a musician to produce good music, nor that without a dominant symphony orchestra, any score is meaningless. Folk who DO think these things are missing out on a great deal of excellent music. Compositional quality, however, is something that I think most people need in order to enjoy a score. (Elfman = no training, but along came Batman and Edward Scissorhands. Michael Andrews in Donnie Darko - no orchestra, rock background, GORGEOUS music. Basil Poledouris in It's My Party - classical training, but no orchestra - just one man and a piano. Maybe Poledouris' finest score. Wendy Carlos in Tron - the ULTIMATE synth orchestra hybrid, and one of my all time favourites. Alan Silvestri in Flight Of The Navigator - not a live musician in site, all done on a cheesy 80s Synclavier - great score. [Though I may be biased because I adore the movie, but who knows?])

I'm a lot more open-minded than you give me credit for! :)

dooj17

07-27-2009, 03:52 PM

I was wondering why a GI Joe thread has 4 pages and after reading everything I can see why! I had some fervent discussions with Danny in C.B.R. and I was wondering if it was getting too heated, but compared to this we were pitching daisies at each other :).

Just briefly- the Watchmen music that sounds like Blade Runner is the Phillip Glass stuff I assume. I have always been down on Phillip Glass for being too conservative, but for this film I found it chilling and sad.

Sirusjr

07-27-2009, 04:02 PM

I have to say that rock in general just like any other genre is so broad that it is nearly impossible to generalize and say that one likes or hates all rock or metal. I actually listen to a large amount of rock, metal (mostly where I can understand the vocals and there are clear melodies), jpop, and other non-symphonic things. In the end, a soundtrack can be great not because of the style used to present it (be it orchestral, electronic, rock, or other) but because of the way those elements are used in crafting a soundtrack. There are certain styles that some people like more than others. It comes down to the individual's appreciation for the theme utilized more than anything.

Joseph

07-27-2009, 06:15 PM

Just briefly- the Watchmen music that sounds like Blade Runner is the Phillip Glass stuff I assume. I have always been down on Phillip Glass for being too conservative, but for this film I found it chilling and sad.

Actually, the track I was thinking of was "Edward Blake - The Comedian" from the score. I believe it accompanied the flashback Manhattan had about The Comedian in Vietnam. When I saw that part in the movie, I thought "Damn, that music sounds like 'Blade Runner' and its awesome."

"Prison Fight" is another great track. It reminds me of "Streets of Rage."

Lens of Truth

07-27-2009, 10:54 PM

Hooray for an end to censorious aggression in this thread! I thought I'd have to stay away, as I have a very weak constitution for that sort of thing ;) Glad to see that wide-ranging passionate discussion has been miraculously embraced and conflict resolved!

I'm finding G.I.Joe a lot of fun. There are little things that irritate me, like the odd shakuhachi squeal (surely this has been done to death and is beneath Silvestri) and the unavoidable moments of nondescript filler, but there's plenty of exciting rhythmic thrust and orchestral precision. The theme in its short form reminds me a little of 'Battlefield' from Golden Axe, so thumbs up there!

..and we're back with old Alan Silvestri, the frenetic action writer, the themesmith, the rousing symphonist. :D

And the hardcore raver! I only wish 'MARS Industries' was a little longer. It gets me going and then cuts out!! :)

The only music I remember from Watchmen apart from the songs is the Philip Glass stuff and the cringe-worthy mutilation of the Mozart Requiem.. I know I have to be careful here in case the thought police strike, but seriously, why do filmmakers think it's a good idea to introduce a huge, subtle, coherently developed piece of music for about 30 seconds, necessitating an obvious splice job (in this case done totally unmusically!)? Classical music can't be so carelessly dialed in and out without it seeming like a hash.

Watchmen of course does have a very elaborate title sequence, and it’s probably my favourite part. One of the few pleasures of Superman Returns was getting to hear that amazing, unabashedly heroic Williams music in the cinema! I don’t know about anyone else, but I only knew the Reeve films from tv screenings as a kid. It made me wish that a bit of old-fashioned, curtain-raising showmanship would crop up a little more often!

dooj17

07-27-2009, 11:08 PM

I don�t know about anyone else, but I only knew the Reeve films from tv screenings as a kid. It made me wish that a bit of old-fashioned, curtain-raising showmanship would crop up a little more often!

It's no fun being "old", but seeing the original SW trilogy in the theater as well as Superman, ST:TMP (with overture!), etc...I wouldn't trade those moments for the biggest Imax screen in the world. It's true, those kinds of "overture"-type main titles don't really exist anymore...?
Sadly I don't remember the Black Hole overture, even tho I saw that in the theater as well.
Anyways gotta get back to the park and feed those pigeons....;)

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 11:18 PM

I'm finding G.I.Joe a lot of fun. There are little things that irritate me, like the odd shakuhachi squeal (surely this has been done to death and is beneath Silvestri)

Well, the verbatim rip from Pirates of the Carribbean in Night at The Museum 2 is very very much beneath Silvestri - but you do what you have to do in order to not get sacked. I can almost forgive this because there are so many modern film music cliches that he completely avoided. I forget the last time you could listen to a summer blockbuster score for less than ten seconds and say, without a shadow of doubt, "This is by [insert name]!" - every note belongs to Silvestri. For that alone, he deserves praise.

...and the unavoidable moments of nondescript filler, but there's plenty of exciting rhythmic thrust and orchestral precision. The theme in its short form reminds me a little of 'Battlefield' from Golden Axe, so thumbs up there!

I prefer Silvestri's filler to most other composers' big ideas. ;)

I only wish 'MARS Industries' was a little longer. It gets me going and then cuts out!! :)

Indeed... I suppose it's a symptom of fast cuts, low-attention-span attitude to editing that is so prevalent in today's mainstream action cinema. No sooner has a good idea been presented, it's time to abandon it and move to the next one.

but seriously, why do filmmakers think it's a good idea to introduce a huge, subtle, coherently developed piece of music for about 30 seconds, necessitating an obvious splice job (in this case done totally unmusically!)? Classical music can't be so carelessly dialed in and out without it seeming like a hash.

Because they don't care, because they can, because they have no appreciation for the artform, and because their filmmaking is, moreso than ever, dominated by the need to make MORE MONEY and appeal to as many people as possible - whatever the perceived IQ ratings of "many people" may be.

As for doing it "unmusically" I suppose, at least, that makes it fit in with the rest of the score. ;)

One of the few pleasures of Superman Returns was getting to hear that amazing, unabashedly heroic Williams music in the cinema!

Likewise, although my enjoyment was spoiled by a loudmouthed couple a few rows back who didn't think too much of it. "What the fuck is with all this classical music? Hellooo - BOORED, when are we gonna see some shit blow up? Haha, listen, it's still going on, all this old fashioned orchestered (sic) bullshit!"

Suffice it to say I did register my feelings very clearly, and very succinctly to them both, and after being called a "fucking fag", "dipshit snob" (where have I heard THAT before), and "just some dickhead with no cock" they did eventually shut up, and I was able to enjoy the film in relative comfort. (Well, I say "enjoy" in the sense of "I sat in the cinema and viewed it from beginning to end...)

I don�t know about anyone else, but I only knew the Reeve films from tv screenings as a kid. It made me wish that a bit of old-fashioned, curtain-raising showmanship would crop up a little more often!

With apologies for my part in the ongoing off-topic spectacular, I never actually saw Superman until last year. I had *badly* misjudged it based upon not very much actual information, and finally settled down to watch it with my fiancee who recommended it. It didn't take me long to change my opinion. Then we watched Superman IV, just for the lulz... (Gorgeous score by Courage, but the less said about the movie, the better. Nuclear Man my buttocks...)

tangotreats

07-27-2009, 11:22 PM

It's no fun being "old", but seeing the original SW trilogy in the theater as well as Superman, ST:TMP (with overture!), etc...I wouldn't trade those moments for the biggest Imax screen in the world. It's true, those kinds of "overture"-type main titles don't really exist anymore...?
Sadly I don't remember the Black Hole overture, even tho I saw that in the theater as well. Anyways gotta get back to the park and feed those pigeons....;)

Get off the grass, you crazy kid! Don't you have any respect for your elders?

Being born in 1984, I sadly missed out having those glorious experiences in cinemas - but I have done my best to recreate them with the aid of soundtrack albums and DVDs. First the actual Overture (as in, four minutes of music against a black screen or slideshow) went, and then we lost the main title itself. If people aren't seeing stuff happening that's VERY relevant to the plot, or is at least superficially exciting, within ten seconds of the curtains opening (see my response to Lens) then you've lost their attention. Very sad that modern audiences' "tastes" are compromising the quality of film like never before...

Denny

07-27-2009, 11:28 PM

I know it's settled down somewhat but I find that when spaceworlder and DannyFrench interact it doesn't go too well. I wouldn't take sides on a matter like this but as a mod I should step down and just say try and settle down somewhat. Granted you guys are throwing horrific insults back and forth but do try and keep it civil so others don't have to come here and feel any grief.

I guess we all can't agree with one another and some just don't get along for whatever reason. I'm not saying don't voice your opinion but try not to lash at at one another.

Just saying. Thanks lads!

Joseph

07-28-2009, 12:15 AM

Likewise, although my enjoyment was spoiled by a loudmouthed couple a few rows back who didn't think too much of it. "What the fuck is with all this classical music? Hellooo - BOORED, when are we gonna see some shit blow up? Haha, listen, it's still going on, all this old fashioned orchestered (sic) bullshit!"

What kind of theaters do you go to? In all the decades I've been to the movies, I've never heard an audience complain about music being "classical." The worst I've seen is idiots pointing their mini-lasers at the screen (hasn't happened in a long time, though) but I don't think I've ever overheard someone saying "What's with this classical music?"

First the actual Overture (as in, four minutes of music against a black screen or slideshow) went, and then we lost the main title itself. If people aren't seeing stuff happening that's VERY relevant to the plot, or is at least superficially exciting, within ten seconds of the curtains opening (see my response to Lens) then you've lost their attention. Very sad that modern audiences' "tastes" are compromising the quality of film like never before...

I don't see what losing the main titles has to do with compromising quality. Classics like "Citizen Kane," "The Godfather" and "West Side Story" didn't have opening titles. I've heard of people complaining about not knowing the players in advance, but few have ever said that a lack of credits at the beginning impacted the quality of the movie.

I do agree that they should bring back the overture and bust open the limits of run time. A movie like "Watchmen" demands to run for over three hours with an intermission in the middle, but modern studios want everything to be in the two-hour range. People get antsy if a movie is longer than 110 minutes. I don't know if the butts of today's audiences would survive an epic like "Lawrence of Arabia" or "Gone with the Wind." Maybe our posteriors are in the process of de-evolution.

tangotreats

07-28-2009, 12:26 AM

What kind of theaters do you go to? In all the decades I've been to the movies, I've never heard an audience complain about music being "classical." The worst I've seen is idiots pointing their mini-lasers at the screen (hasn't happened in a long time, though) but I don't think I've ever overheard someone saying "What's with this classical music?"

I go to crappy cinemas. ;) (I don't go to that one any more. I drive twenty miles to go to a nice one.)

I think those two were put there just to get on my nerves.

They had a very distinct lack of appreciation for the Superman March - and an even lesser opinion of me. That's something I've got quite used to over the years. ;)

I've heard of people complaining about not knowing the players in advance, but few have ever said that a lack of credits at the beginning impacted the quality of the movie.

Nonono, I'm not saying the movie suffers because it has no main title. I'm saying that the death of the main title is another indication of how I feel contemporary filmmaking has evolved. For good, or for bad.

I do agree that they should bring back the overture and bust open the limits of run time. A movie like "Watchmen" demands to run for over three hours with an intermission in the middle, but modern studios want everything to be in the two-hour range. People get antsy if a movie is longer than 110 minutes.

Exactly - it's the old "we want it NOW and we have short attention spans" that is knackered up the genre. ;)

Everything has to run at a thousand miles an hour. There's not much chance to breathe any more. The horror movie in which you don't see the bad guy until halfway through, and when you do, you only see a bit of him (Alien) - or the powerful epic where portions of runtime are devoted to getting you into the world, teaching you about it, helping you to know the characters, etc. Not just "WHAMMO! Let's fight!" (Not saying all movies do this - but some do, and it's annoying and an insult to the intelligence of the viewer - or maybe it's a commentary on the intelligence of the demographic at which they're aiming the movie...)

I don't know if the butts of today's audiences would survive an epic like "Lawrence of Arabia" or "Gone with the Wind." Maybe our posteriors are in the process of de-evolution.

They wouldn't. They'd claim the movies were slow, boring, full of padding (ie, plot) and that you could've told that story in fifteen minutes.

I saw Alexander in the cinema (yeah, I know...) and I remember when the intermission came - at the end of the BIIIIIIIG battle near to the end of part one, people's arses started shifting awkwardly in their chairs (the way they do when their sixth sense picks up a hint that the end credits may be about to start - so they can ensure that they're up, out of the cinema and halfway home before all that boring writing starts up) - and then it ended, and the screen flashed up "INTERMISSION" - suddenly a room full of very unhappy people who shuffled around a bit and then sat through ANOTHER hour and a half of it...

Big shame, really.

cradub

07-28-2009, 01:09 AM

Being born in 1984,

Dude, you're only 25? Somehow I got the impression that you were in your mid-40s. How the hell did you become so cantankerous? :-P

I saw Alexander in the cinema (yeah, I know...) and I remember when the intermission came - at the end of the BIIIIIIIG battle near to the end of part one, people's arses started shifting awkwardly in their chairs (the way they do when their sixth sense picks up a hint that the end credits may be about to start - so they can ensure that they're up, out of the cinema and halfway home before all that boring writing starts up) - and then it ended, and the screen flashed up "INTERMISSION" - suddenly a room full of very unhappy people who shuffled around a bit and then sat through ANOTHER hour and a half of it...

Big shame, really.

Fuck, you have no idea how much that pisses me off. It's like my number one pet peeve in the theatres (other than assholes talking during the movie). About two minutes before the movie ends, people start getting up and leaving. I'm like, what the fuck? You have to run to your car and go home? You really can't wait to get the hell as far away from this place as possible? Obviously being a film score enthusiast, I always sit through the credits, and I see these fucking mad cattle rushing to get the fuck out of the theatre as fast as they can and jam up the parking lot in their fervent rush to get to the freeway first. It's like a goddamn race or something. :rolleyes:

Sorry...wow...I've been needing to vent that one out for about 15 years. This seemed like the thread to do it.

The other thing -- about people not having long-enough attention spans to sit through long movies -- you'd think that in this day and age (pushing $11 per movie ticket), people would want to get their money's worth of entertainment and kill a whole afternoon at the cinemas...but noooo...I don't know what they want. I'll never understand people. :-P

Sirusjr

07-28-2009, 03:53 AM

Dude, you're only 25? Somehow I got the impression that you were in your mid-40s. How the hell did you become so cantankerous? :-P

THIS! Very interesting indeed.

Biggs v.2

07-28-2009, 07:15 AM

Just to quickly chime in here, at the end on some more extended thoughts I've had.

I've listened to this album all the way through almost half a dozen times and in all honestly, I think it's one of the best of the year. Certainly, deserves to be considered amongst Silvestri's best work... I'd place it in line with His Mummy 2 score, if not higher than... the "battle" stuff as well, is just so exceptionally slick and - (good god, I'm all-but-agreeing with Danny here) MUSCIAL rather than drum-looped synthetic instruments...

Wow.

I made an early judgement call on "Star Trek" being the best work of the year, and I still believe Giacchino's work undoubtedly holds up much better as a stand-alone piece of music, but I tell you... Silvestri has suprised me with how FUN his score is... I may need to re-think my best albums of the year...

Mr Silvestri, on a forum you'll never read from a person you've never met from a country on the otherside of the world... Congratulations... you have suprised me and brought some real class to a film that most likely doesn't deserve it...

Lens of Truth

07-28-2009, 07:26 AM

Well, the verbatim rip from Pirates of the Carribbean in Night at The Museum 2 is very very much beneath Silvestri - but you do what you have to do in order to not get sacked.
I didn't get that far into Silvestri's NATM2. Was hoping for a development on the slightly half-baked original, but disappointingly that's not what we got :(

"What the fuck is with all this classical music? Hellooo - BOORED, when are we gonna see some shit blow up? Haha, listen, it's still going on, all this old fashioned orchestered (sic) bullshit!"
That's crazy! I wouldn't expect that sort of idiocy from even the most unrepentant scouse scallies! I thought EVERYONE deferred to those big Williams themes.. What's next, booing the Star Wars titles?

British television has mostly done away with opening themes as well these days. I remember a time when you couldn't flick channels without some stirring, toe-tapping tune, or Brucknerian fanfare heralding the 6 o'clock News.

It's rather reassuring to know that, through all this, you continue to fight the good fight in the 'real world' too :) I usually only have the courage to do this with friends.

I never actually saw Superman until last year
I'm shocked! As a score fan too.. glad you've rectified it. Christopher Reeve was an incredible, noble presence on film. Truly inspiring, and by all accounts a great guy. Margot Kidder might be a little hard-faced (as befits the character) but Williams’ featherlight love music wins me over completely. I even like 2 and, yes, 3 :) Ken Thorne's original material for the third is great - the unusual opening titles, and that witty Strauss pastiche. The adaptations in the second are effective enough in the film, but damn I wish he'd had more free-reign to come up with themes - for Zod and co in particular.

I don't see what losing the main titles has to do with compromising quality. Classics like "Citizen Kane," "The Godfather" and "West Side Story" didn't have opening titles.
West Side Story does have a lengthy overture though. And all three have very arresting, original scores on a scale that simply isn't heard today.

Even if you adore the direction modern films have taken, surely you've got to admit, it wouldn't hurt to have an enormous, lush symphonic score by a composer with the genius of Herrmann, Rota or Bernstein every once in a while - and not exclusively as wallpaper to an effects driven sci-fi or fantasy, but perhaps a human drama of the kind mentioned above. If there was even one such attempt every 5 years say, I'd be a very happy cinema-goer :D

BigBone70

08-08-2009, 12:52 AM

"Silvestri's strongest effort of the decade."!!
No! Contact and Mummy Returns were something good!

Thanks for the rip.

tangotreats

08-08-2009, 02:20 AM

"Silvestri's strongest effort of the decade."!!
No! Contact and Mummy Returns were something good!

Thanks for the rip.

Contact was 1997, so therefore isn't "of this decade". ;)

Quite right on The Mummy Returns, however - that was quite a special score in its way: Like GI Joe, no pretenses of being great art - just a ridiculously overblown score filled to the brim with exhuberant fun.

Joseph

08-08-2009, 04:01 AM

BigBone70

08-08-2009, 08:27 PM

"just a ridiculously overblown score filled to the brim with exhuberant fun."
You're right!!!
And I really appreciate this style sometimes, you know why? I'm the bass trombone of the OVMF. It's an amateur band, but it's nice. Listen to this. I'm on the right of the image.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=21576087326&subj=691330043
It's not Silvestri, I know... We have already played Mummy Returns a few years ago.

tangotreats

08-09-2009, 01:30 AM

It's difficult to have pretenses of being great art when you're scoring cinematic trash. Personally, while "G.I. JOE" is fun and everything (the music--not the movie!), I find myself preferring Silvestri's "Beowulf" and "Lio & Stitch." Maybe it helps that those movies didn't suck. :-)

Getting a little off topic now (again - sorry) - it sounds like you've seen GI Joe...? I was planning to see it next week. Should I be staying at home?

OrangeC

08-09-2009, 01:55 AM

Getting a little off topic now (again - sorry) - it sounds like you've seen GI Joe...? I was planning to see it next week. Should I be staying at home?

If you dont want to see peoples asses squirming at the 5minutes end of the movie.

Sirusjr

08-09-2009, 02:06 AM

Getting a little off topic now (again - sorry) - it sounds like you've seen GI Joe...? I was planning to see it next week. Should I be staying at home?
Well its your typical good vs evil, evil gets weapons and good has to stop them from using them to kill everyone. There are some solid action sequences especially the massive chase scene in Paris. I know your expectations weren't too high so keeping that in mind you may as well check it out.

Joseph

08-09-2009, 02:20 AM

Getting a little off topic now (again - sorry) - it sounds like you've seen GI Joe...? I was planning to see it next week. Should I be staying at home?

I haven't seen it, and I have no intention of seeing it. The trailers and TV spots look like garbage, the "positive points" (some) reviews mention don't sound like my idea of positive points ("mindless action!" "turn off your brain!"), and it's been getting bad reviews and word of mouth from non-fanboys. On top of that, I've pretty much had my fill of movies based on 1980s toy lines. (Hello, Transformers 1! Good bye, two hours of my life I'll never get back!)

Lens of Truth

08-09-2009, 05:37 AM

Email response from Varese quoted on the Silvestri forums:

Thank you for your note.

We also heard of some web site threads complaining about this disc and have since put effort into getting to the bottom of this. As I'm sure you know, there is a tendency in the message board world to light fires which are not based on facts. There is a great deal of misinformation spread about this way. We did actually receive a few emails about this as well, but the emails from different people were virtually identical ... word for word. We found that a little suspicious.

As a matter of procedure, viewing a spectral analysis of the audio files is never part of the approval process. A mastered album is always carefully listened to by Var�se Sarabande, the album producers and engineers and is approved before it is duplicated. This album went through the same approval process.

I can assure you that, after re-listening to the disc, everyone involved continues to stand behind the sound quality of the disc.

Hope that helps.

A very skillful evasion is all we're going to get from them sadly.. in which case it's difficult to see this as anything other than a deliberately cynical maneuver. I'd love to know though why it's of any advantage to them to release from a lossy master. Surely what you stick on the cd is immaterial as far as costs are concerned. It must have been recorded decently?? Very confused. :(

tangotreats

08-09-2009, 01:37 PM

This is typical of the kind of dismissive attitude that companies put out when they make the (in this case, potentially fatal) assumption that the complainers don't know what they're talking about. Basically, that reply says "Piss off, we're a big powerful record company and you're just a stupid internet complainer with ideas above his station and too much time on his hands."

I have written a lengthy response to them regarding the issue in general, as well as my disappointment with the glib, unhelpful response that they sent to Sirusjr. I won't post it here because it's extremely long, most of it is about digital audio recording technology and the inner mechanics of lossy algorythms - and on top of that, it's incredibly dull.

I have, however, sent it to Varese's complaints dept, and fully intend to write to the president (by snail-mail if necessary) if a satisfactory reply isn't received.

I also have a telephone number for them. I think it might be worth dropping them a courtesy call first.

The fight isn't over yet - it hasn't even started yet. Some people here may not particularly like me, but even they would surely admit that I'm fairly skilled at arguing. ;)