The idea to use bombastic choral music and swelling orchestras to accompany games (especially RPG) is kinda, in my opinion, overused and abused. Almost every other game has this kind of cliche in it, and it can get pretty annoying.

This thread is to discuss soundtracks that sadly fall into this category and also soundtracks that manage to strike a balance between too damn much and too mediocre.

Also I want to know if you guys thought Advent Children's remix of One-Winged Angel was too much. I thought it was at the brink, but I don't think it really fell over so its okay for me.

What kind of music would you prefer instead during those moments?

I understand completely where you're coming from. It's all too easy for game composers to take that chorus sample and really run with it -- often delving into downright self-parody.

What kind of music would you prefer instead during those moments?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the use of choral or orchestral music per se. But there's a marked difference between using these tools to support and accentuate the gaming experience, as opposed to merely upping the tempo, the volume or the chants and strings just because you think it will make it a better piece of music. Most of the time they'll end up sounding like each other. FF XII is a good example of this. I went to look for a review of it just now and lo, this popped up: http://music.ign.com/articles/742/742920p1.html

It must be hard to strike a balance, but I think you know when you've heard something that's original and when you have not.

I guess I'm just miffed that the words 'epic' and 'awesome' are kinda cheapened by both film and game scores. The music of Transformers 2 (to deviate from game music for a while), for example, was absolutely laughable. It was cut-and-paste from Peter Jackson's King Kong and LoTR during the sad scenes (with the mourning alto in the background) and deafening horns during EVERY transforming scene (of which there were many).


Well, speaking of parody, Jared Emerson Johnson's Sam and Max's parody of RPG music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ubD7NG_p8Q) is absolutely hilarious. The fact that you can definitely imagine it in a game somewhere shows the cliche.

I think this is too complex an issue to make blanket statements about. We always have to refer to specifics, even in the case of Final Fantasy XI. For example, which pieces specifically would you categorize as unnecessarily orchestral?

Here's a brief thought concerning why I don't think we can say, "Video game music is too ____ right now." There's an extraordinary amount of flux going on. One is the tendency towards classic film composition techniques, which is possibly an expression of both the desire to make video games familiar to a broader audience (and thus to make more money) and also to legitimize video games as an art form by making them closer to other mediums that have been accepted as such. On the other hand, nostalgia is a powerful force and some composers are sticking with melody-driven songs (often with the old rock structures that dominated the chiptune era) and even sticking with projects (like Mega Man 9) that utilize the old technology. Then there are composers doing what, I think, you're describing, which is to follow in the path of God of War's soundtrack. Then there are composers copying Akira Yamaoka. Then there are composers writing J-pop. Then there are composers like Yoko Kanno writing jazz- and rock-influenced classical compositions, or classical-influenced jazz and rock compositions. Then there are...etc. I mean, we all know this. Video game music has always had open borders to every genre. So I think you have to be careful about the way you phrase a criticism of video game music. Otherwise, you're opening yourself to a flame war.

That's a possibility any time you use the word "epic," too, which a lot of people cling to as the word that describes the genre of music they like. The problem with using the word "epic" is that it doesn't mean anything concrete. What you mean when you say something is "epic" is that the song elicits a sensation of grandness, maybe heroism, maybe high drama. But those are all subjective qualities of the music. It's not like saying something is "rock" because the instruments that play the music consist of two guitars, a bass, and drums. In other words, "epic" is a descriptive word--not a genre. That's like saying, "There's too much beautiful music being written for video games. Why can't they start making more lush music?" What does that mean?

Now, having said all that, I kinda get what you're saying in your first post. But give us some examples. What music uses "these tools to support and accentuate the gaming experience, as opposed to merely upping the tempo, the volume or the chants and strings just because you think it will make it a better piece of music." Without any information about what you're referring to, this will go on with people saying, "Yes! Video game music is trying too hard to be dramatic," and, "No! I want my games to make me feel like I'm doing something important," without any of us ever knowing what music the other person is thinking of--and thus, whether we'd actually agree with them or not that that specific song is, as you put it, "too damn much."

Wow. Well, all I can say is I'm definitely not trying to assert my opinions. I was just trying to open a discussion about which soundtrack you personally thought was trying too hard to be grandoise. That was precisely why I didn't delve into specifics, because I wanted to hear your opinion first. If there wasn't any point of discussion, then fine.

I completely get what you are saying about the multiple genre thing. But then again, you cannot deny that there is originality and inoriginality, and there are fuzzy things inbetween (no false dichotomy here). I'm setting aside the God of War KIND (I emphasize this, I'm not against the soundtrack itself) because for me, this genre stood out because I felt that way too many people are using Holst's the Planets as inspiration.

As for the word epic, I understand that it's now a common word, like 'awesome'. But I'm going to sound like a complete purist snob and insist that those words are cheapened. You are totally right in saying that any epic music in general should evoke feelings of heroism, but the word epic is not a descriptive word for any "genre of music they like". There is a specific connotation behind that word, and it IS a specific type of composition e.g. epic poetry, an epic novel like Odyssey. Epic is not the same as "beautiful", as you suggest, so when I say "epic music for video games are sometimes too much", its not as stupid as when I say "beautiful music for video games are sometimes too much."

But I digress. What I'm saying, and have been saying, is that there are times when the composer attempts to evoke those feelings of heroism but they end up either putting too much of a good thing or they insert this kind of music into completely inappropriate moments in the game. 'Which composer' and 'what soundtrack' is a personal opinion, and that is the point of discussion. If you think that there is no such issue, then that's completely fine.

Now I'm going to bring up a couple of examples. In the action-RPG Diablo 2 (ancient game I know), Matt Uelman did a fantastic job for me, and his music accentuated the atmosphere so completely. In boss fights like the track "mephisto", he does use battle drums and choral music, but again it doesn't come across as overpowering the game.

BUT, in the expansion pack Lord of Destruction, he unfortunately falls back into the mould of Holst's Mars, for the track "Siege" after 1:00. Perhaps he meant for it to sound like Mars (I'm serious, they sound almost identical), but it wasn't cool for me. This again, is what I think.

As for FF VII, oops no XII, there were some moments where it did accomplish what the soundtrack set out to do, but tracks like 'The Skycity of Bhujerba', though not the grandest track, had lots of strings with little motif. The 'Dalmasca Easterland' track was great the first couple of times, but as an area theme it can get tiresome to hear the track go "more, more MOAR" after the next few listens. I know alot of people will disagree with me on this, but I cite another example: 'The Phon Coast'. It got repetitive really quick and the looping violins in the background made me dizzy, literally. And the Esper summoning? The chorus was hmm the first time but again there was too much repitition.

Thanks for the detailed post. I'm going to respond to your comments one by one. By the way, I tried to phrase my initial comments so that they didn't seem antagonistic, and I hope they didn't come off that way. Reading your response, I think my comments seemed like a challenge to you. But I was only intending to play referee and clarify the argument being made (which I continued doing below). I hope my post didn't appear mean-spirited, because I definitely didn't mean it that way--nor do I mean the following response to be mean-spirited. Just trying to swerve us away from a few common outcomes of threads like this that ask big questions.


Wow. Well, all I can say is I'm definitely not trying to assert my opinions. I was just trying to open a discussion about which soundtrack you personally thought was trying too hard to be grandoise. That was precisely why I didn't delve into specifics, because I wanted to hear your opinion first. If there wasn't any point of discussion, then fine.

Well, I don't think we can get away from opinions with a topic like this. And I'm interested in yours.


I completely get what you are saying about the multiple genre thing. But then again, you cannot deny that there is originality and inoriginality, and there are fuzzy things inbetween (no false dichotomy here).I'm setting aside the God of War KIND (I emphasize this, I'm not against the soundtrack itself) because for me, this genre stood out because I felt that way too many people are using Holst's the Planets as inspiration.

What people would you include in this argument?


As for the word epic, I understand that it's now a common word, like 'awesome'. But I'm going to sound like a complete purist snob and insist that those words are cheapened. You are totally right in saying that any epic music in general should evoke feelings of heroism, but the word epic is not a descriptive word for any "genre of music they like". There is a specific connotation behind that word, and it IS a specific type of composition e.g. epic poetry, an epic novel like Odyssey. Epic is not the same as "beautiful", as you suggest, so when I say "epic music for video games are sometimes too much", its not as stupid as when I say "beautiful music for video games are sometimes too much."

I'd be interested in establishing what you mean by it. In common usage, I see it applied to just about anything. If you can articulate what you mean by the word, I think that would be useful to the discussion. I don't think you can just assume that when you say "epic" someone is going to know, "Oh right. Music that features x, y, and z." I mean, let's just start with the basic questions. Does it always use romantic themes? Is it always tonal? Does it have to have a chorus? Does it have to have brass? What function do those elements play in the music? Is it long-form or short? Does it have percussion? How is it structured? What kinds of games does it conventionally appear in? Who are well-known composers who write epic music? Can the answers to any of those questions be commonly agreed upon? If not, I don't see how you can say, "There is a specific connotation behind that word, and it IS a specific type of composition." The best definition I can think of is the one I gave--"music that elicits a sensation of grandness, maybe heroism, maybe high drama." But, again, that's problematic if you're asserting it has a concrete meaning.

To go to an example, is the soundtrack for Super Mario Bros. epic? Most people would say no, if you're listening to the original 8-bit version. But switch, say, the "Castle Complete" music to different instruments without telling the listener that the music was made for the NES, and you're liable to hear an argument for and against. So that suggests "epicness" has something to do with the instrumentation and historical context and the running time of the piece. But is the soundtrack for Star Fox 64 epic? Now you're getting into a much more nuanced argument about instruments, technology, originality, song structure, and use within the game. I think this discussion is much more complex than you're giving it credit for.


But I digress. What I'm saying, and have been saying, is that there are times when the composer attempts to evoke those feelings of heroism but they end up either putting too much of a good thing or they insert this kind of music into completely inappropriate moments in the game. 'Which composer' and 'what soundtrack' is a personal opinion, and that is the point of discussion. If you think that there is no such issue, then that's completely fine.

Here is where I worry you thought I was trying to pick a fight. On the contrary, I was trying to get you to zero in on some songs because I was interested (and still am) in your opinion. Plus, I thought it would give the discussion more of a concrete foundation. And I'm happy to see some examples below...


Now I'm going to bring up a couple of examples. In the action-RPG Diablo 2 (ancient game I know), Matt Uelman did a fantastic job for me, and his music accentuated the atmosphere so completely. In boss fights like the track "mephisto", he does use battle drums and choral music, but again it doesn't come across as overpowering the game.

BUT, in the expansion pack Lord of Destruction, he unfortunately falls back into the mould of Holst's Mars, for the track "Siege" after 1:00. Perhaps he meant for it to sound like Mars (I'm serious, they sound almost identical), but it wasn't cool for me. This again, is what I think.

As for FF VII, oops no XII, there were some moments where it did accomplish what the soundtrack set out to do, but tracks like 'The Skycity of Bhujerba', though not the grandest track, had lots of strings with little motif. The 'Dalmasca Easterland' track was great the first couple of times, but as an area theme it can get tiresome to hear the track go "more, more MOAR" after the next few listens. I know alot of people will disagree with me on this, but I cite another example: 'The Phon Coast'. It got repetitive really quick and the looping violins in the background made me dizzy, literally. And the Esper summoning? The chorus was hmm the first time but again there was too much repitition.

I think "The Phon Coast" and "Esper Summoning" are great examples to start with because they are well-loved, especially on these forums, and in both cases I would say, to borrow your thread topic, less would be more. In "The Phon Coast" the chorus is only used to trace simple lines through the bass, drums, strings, brass, and melodic percussion without adding any tension, and the brass seems to exist mostly to cover empty space in the composition without culminating in anything. In other words, I think this piece is a bunch of flourishes that don't work as a coherent composition, and eventually that becomes boring, like you say. The main melody is (arguably) that little riff that starts at :47 but it and its repetitions take up maybe 30 seconds of the 4 minute piece. What purpose is all that other stuff serving? What do others think?

yes i agree with the OP.

take ICO for example. it had very minimal music in it. but that draws you in, and it also gives a more natural sound.

silent hill is another good example.

tomb raider used to be minimal-ish, but than troels took over and the sound changed.