For the lucky ones who enjoyed the glorious period of the SNES debut, there was one game which attracted a lot of attention: ACTRAISER. Splendid graphics, rich gameplay were among its qualities, but one truly astonishing aspect was the music. I don't know how YUZO KOSHIRO did this, but the virtuosity and beauty of the music he composed were unbelievable at this time, especially for a VG (Those who listened for the first time to the End Credits part 2 after having beaten the last boss know what I'm talking about...). Given the exceptional nature of this OST, some people decided to produce a fully orchestral arrangement of it. The already very talented KAORU WADA (Inuyasha, Lodoss, Silent mobius, ...) was hired to do it. His version is excellent, very close to the original compositions, except for the track "FILMOA" which is given a much more orchestral approach. Overall, this album is a true jewel every orchestral enthusiast should have.

Note: The usual downloadable version of this album is a low quality 160k one, but my version is a very rare HQ VBR one I downloaded long ago from Gamemp3s. The sound quality is excellent, so enjoy!



Symphonic suite from ACTRAISER

All Songs Composed and Arranged by YUZO KOSHIRO

Conductor & Orchestration: KAORU WADA

Orchestra: SHINSEI NIHON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA

Mp3 VBR HQ

http://tinyurl.com/ddyqq2




01 OPENING~TENKUJO~BLOOD POOL~CASANDORA 4:20
02 INTERMEZZO I 0:18
03 FILMOA 2:48
04 INTERMEZZO II 0:31
05 AITOS~TEMPLE~KORIN~SEKAIJU 5:19
06 INTERMEZZO III 0:20
07 PYRAMID~MARANA~SEIJYAKU~NORTH WALL 5:56
08 HITOBITO NO TANJYO~SASACEMONO 3:06
09 MAJU ARAWARU~KYOTEKI~SATAN 3:18
10 HEIWA NA SEKAI~ENDING


Actraiser was composed by Yuzo Koshiro, a man with many fans, and whom is also known for his compositions of the early Ys games, and Sorcerian. As par for him, Koshiro's work on the Actraiser soundtrack is quite good. For coming as early into the SNES's life as it did, the music did a lot with the system's sound hardware. Many of the compositions were already of an orchestral nature, so the transference to a live symphonic performance went quite well.

Actraiser Symphonic Suite is a beautiful album; it has energy, beauty, power, and most of all, emotion. The only thing it lacks is length. Sadly, we are only given about thirty minutes of these heavenly sounds. But, I would imagine that thirty minutes of heaven is still better than sixty minutes of anything else.

The music on this CD is well composed, performed, and arranged. I can think of little more to say about it other than that it would behoove any lover of game music to buy it. This is one of those albums that you can play for those buddies who think that game music is unsophisticated and childish. Once they pick their jaws up off the floor, your non-gaming friends will probably agree that the music is of high quality.

And like many things of beauty, Actraiser Symphonic Suite is not easy to find. Moreover, if it is found it will often set the buyer back a rather larger sum of money. If you happen to find it, and can spare the change, I would highly recommend the purchase.

Reviewed by: SrBehemoth

WOW~~ thanks dude!!

I've been looking for this!! xD
gotta listen

MANY thanks for this.

Sweet!

Awesome, thanks

Thank god, now I can replace my 160k one. Much appreciated!

This does live up to advance billing; good of you to make this available.

This does live up to advance billing

It is not "advance billing", it's something called "MY OPINION".

In fact, every people I heard talking about this album mostly had the same, so it seems my opinion is quite representative.

Arthierr, thank you very much for this album, it's really beautiful and very charged with emotions. i love it and i very appreciate your hard work *HUUUUG*

Hello !

Arthierr, thank's again for this contribution, much apreciate. :)

I'll just see it for the sake of Yuzo Koshiro.

Mother of GOD! Thank ye aplenty for this! \,,/

AHAH!
I've already heard it. very cool.
I like the last songs XDXDXD
it has the 20th Century Fox THEME.
I had an attack of laugh with it. XDXDXD
Not expecting this :D

Thanks a lot arthierr, I was looking so much for a good quality version of this.

Thanks for the upload.

thanx mon pote.
that will bring up some memories

Found the lossless of this on what.cd tracker, so I decided to upload this to megaupload for the people who want it.

http://tinyurl.com/koshiro

this is such a beautiful score. one of my all-time favorites. thank you for sharing this.

Awesome post on the lossless, should be in the lossless music thread.

Now, I utterly respect Arthierr for posting this rare album, I respect Dreassic for providing the lossless edition, and I respect each and every person who loves this album.

But, I honestly have to ask, why? Why is this album constantly heralded as one of the most magnificent orchestral arrangements of all time? There is one album that is mentioned time and time again as the holy grail of orchestral game music - the one that everybody wants, the one that you'd sell your mother to buy, the one that inspires almost orgasmic enthusiasm at its merest mention... This one.

The music is nice enough - unremarkable, but not at all offensive (though I do appreciate that it was revolutionary for its time - but taken upon its own merits it really is nothing special) but I find the arrangement to be - in typical Kaoru Wada style - strangely flat and lifeless. Where an opportunity existed for a ravishing symphonic rendition of these themes, we get instead anemic arrangements that add very little to the originals... and sound curiously like previously (and since) written Wada compositions from which Wada's melody has been surgically extracted and replaced with Koshiro's!

On top of that, the orchestral performance is oddly non-committal, and somehow fails to conjure up excitement even during the most shamelessly acrobatic, fast paced action music.

The recording quality is atrocious.

All in all, for me anyway, it adds up to a package which is considerably less than the sum of its parts...

Am I missing out on something? Is the love this album receives deserved, or is it granted out of nostalgic fondness for the Koshiro themes? Possibly even a little sense of the Emperor's new clothes...? It has such a high status amongst collectors that they are all afraid to say - even think - that it perhaps doesn't live up to all the hype?

No offense intended to you good gentlemen - I seek merely discussion, not an argument. :)

Your comments are welcomed Tango because I was wondering if I was alone in finding this recording fairly lifeless as far as orchestral arrangements go. I couldn't figure out why I wasn't a huge fan of it although it doesn't help that I am not really a fan of Koshiro. I concur.

Am I missing out on something?

Yes you do. ;)

To understand why this album is so much worshipped, you have to place yourself in context.

Imagine. You're in the early 90's, the only VG music you've heard is only FM synthesis (bip-bip), and then the SNES comes, with its miraculous SPC700 processor, which actually uses REAL samples, i.e. recorded sounds. The 1st released games have a great sound, but when ACTRAISER came, it was almost a *revolution*. I mean it.

KOSHIRO used some real orchestral samples (extremely compressed indeed) to produce a full-fledged orchestral score which actually sounded close to what it was meant to sound! For people interested in game music, and even more in symphonic music, it was astonishing. The emotions when you 1st listened to the music while playing the game were overwhelming. Many times you pause the game just to listen to the music, and you beat many times the last boss to listen to the unbelievable end credits.

Then the Symphonic Suite came, and the numerous people who've been marked by the original score at last had a real orchestral performance. Of course it's imperfect, it could have been a lot better, but it's pretty good nonetheless (Wada knows his stuff), and the emotional value of the music is irreplaceable.

And I strictly don't agree when you say that the music is "unremarkable", IMHO it's more than remarkable! Maybe it's one of the most graceful and elegant game orchestral scores I've heard. Of course there may be an emotional bias, but the music has something of a real virtuosity and a rather unique personality both in composition and orchestration.

On top of that, the orchestral performance is oddly non-committal, and somehow fails to conjure up excitement even during the most shamelessly acrobatic, fast paced action music.

The recording quality is atrocious.

That much is irrefutable. I’d go further and say that the performance is downright sloppy.

The arrangement itself is rather flaccid and lacking in flair. In truth, I’ve come to regard the words ‘Arrange’, ‘Symphony’ and ‘Orchestra’ with horror when it comes to game music. In the case of Koshiro’s Actraiser, I actually think the SNES original sounds more ‘symphonic’ and epic than it does on this cd. How did Wada manage to take a soundtrack that already fit the bill and make it sound so unimposing?? Game music of this era stands apart – for the same reason that it’s possible to see beauty in a few little pixels, the music can feel incredibly inventive and exciting, beyond the limitations of the medium. Listen to Fillmore in the original, or better still play the first level – it’s an edge-of-the-seat little piece with a sense of ‘virtuosity’, as Arthierr rightly says; then compare it to the rendition in the Symphonic Suite… I guess for me the problem with these kind of arrangements is that often (though not always) they fail in capturing the spirit of the game and, even more spectacularly, they fail as symphonies.

I’m definitely on the side of the in-game music, however, and of Yuzo Koshiro (Ys and Streets of Rage rock my world ;)), but I have to agree that these orchestrations are not deserving of all the hype.

Edit: Tango, what do you mean though when you say 'taken upon its own merits it really is nothing special'? Do you mean as game music? Or do you mean to suggest some kind of 'zero degree' of objective music appreciation? Because I really think that there are different ways in which we can appreciate music, and differing significant contexts. Surely, for what it is, Actraiser is not unremarkable?

[I'd also like to exempt myself from suspicions of nostalgia, as I only recently discovered Actraiser via the Wii's virtual console :)]

Edit: Tango, what do you mean though when you say 'taken upon its own merits it really is nothing special'? Do you mean as game music? Or do you mean to suggest some kind of 'zero degree' of objective music appreciation? Because I really think that there are different ways in which we can appreciate music, and differing significant contexts. Surely, for what it is, Actraiser is not unremarkable?

Forget the pioneering technology behind the original soundtrack, the nostalgia, how well the music worked in the game, etc. Taken upon its own merits as in "Here is a CD with some music on it, played by a symphony orchestra. Is it any good?"

I'm asking people to try to look at it completely objectively - which is admittedly difficult when you have a vested interest in the source material. I never had a SNES, never played Actraiser, and never heard the original score until today. I listen to this from the perspective of "Yuzo Koshiro - Symphony No 1, conducted by Kaoru Wada" - and from that perspective, it doesn't work.

A lot of the good comments about it seem to be concerned less with the actual album, or the actual music, or the actual performance - and more with the fact that it is the highly sought-after, out-of-print Actraiser Symphonic Suite. It was a pioneering score for the time. It was unlike anything ever heard before on the NES. It fit the game like a glove. All fair enough, but almost none of these reasons are even slightly related to the actual content of this album.


The arrangement itself is rather flaccid and lacking in flair. In truth, I�ve come to regard the words �Arrange�, �Symphony� and �Orchestra� with horror when it comes to game music. In the case of Koshiro�s Actraiser, I actually think the SNES original sounds more �symphonic� and epic than it does on this cd. How did Wada manage to take a soundtrack that already fit the bill and make it sound so unimposing??

Indeed! I don't particularly rate Wada; he's a one-trick-pony. Every score is Inuyasha. He is not a skilled orchestrator - and wherever, whatever he's conducting, the orchestra sounds half asleep.


I guess for me the problem with these kind of arrangements is that often (though not always) they fail in capturing the spirit of the game and, even more spectacularly, they fail as symphonies.

Indeed again, though if I may add my own spin: The game captures the spirit of the game. Why would you want to take an expensive symphony orchestra and have it emulate a twenty-year-old consumer games console sound chip? Surely the purpose of the prestigious symphonic suite is to re-invent familiar music in orchestral terms... Not take something that was iconic and powerful in its original form and turn it into a bland, pedestrian, orchestration-by-numbers that may as well be a straightforward transcription off the NES.

Yuzo Koshiro wasn't liberated by his technology - he was severely limited by it. The miracle of Actraiser is that he managed to achieve what he did within those limitations. A symphony orchestra is not limiting. Attempting to duplicate his SNES work as closely as possible is just artificially transplanting the inadequacies of 80s synthesiser technology into the orchestra. Work with the medium; play to its strengths, and respect the weaknesses in your source material.

The game captures the spirit of the game. Why would you want to take an expensive symphony orchestra and have it emulate a twenty-year-old consumer games console sound chip?

At the other end of the spectrum, a team of talented orchestrators and arrangers can take any theme or thematic fragment from anything and fashion an anonymous orchestral piece from it (as we have frequent proof in the form of many new Hollywood film scores). That's just the abstract nature of music. When I said ‘spirit’ I meant exactly that; it should at least convey a sense of adventure and imagination comparable to its source, otherwise it’s a failure. To be a really successful symphony it must be an expansion and development as well – *development* is really what a symphony means as far as I’m concerned. Melodic, rhythmic, harmonic combinations always have implications, are always pregnant with possibilites. But there must be some sort of sincere relation to the original. The Biohazard/Resident Evil Orchestra album is one of the most successful in that regard, and you don’t need to know anything about the games to enjoy it. In fact, it improves on the game OSTs 100%.

As a kid I used to imagine how brilliant it would be if the music in Sonic 2, instead of looping, continued into variations and so on (and Sonic music isn’t in the least bit orchestral sounding!). I’ve actually tried to compose a symphonic sonata allegro based on Wing Fortress Zone, but that was purely for my own amusement.


Forget the pioneering technology behind the original soundtrack, the nostalgia, how well the music worked in the game, etc. Taken upon its own merits as in "Here is a CD with some music on it, played by a symphony orchestra. Is it any good?"

Ok. I thought, wrongly, that you were commenting on the game music here, which I do believe is noteworthy. My own experience with Wada’s symphonic version is that I downloaded it, listened to it once and deleted it. And this is from a guy who's a fan of Actraiser, Koshiro and (more than anything in the world) symphonic music. I do happily listen to select tracks from the game though from time to time. But I like the limited nature of 16 and 8 bit synth. I even have NES stuff on my mp3 player. Wouldn’t be without it.

There are some incredibly ‘idiosyncratic’ views expressed on soundtrackcentral and other review sites that I find to be entirely unreliable. As you say, the collectors-item/novelty/fetish status seems to be at least as important as musical quality. Could one of the vested interests you speak of be the desire to raise the staus to videogames to that of an artform? The prestige associated with classical music etc.

It needn’t be said I know, but Arthierr is a man of excellent taste and judgment and sometime musical guru – all of us who gain nourishment from the orchestral thread are, at the end of the day, Arthierr’s children ;) – and I totally understand his deep love for this game and its personal meaning to him. If we are too reductive / ‘objective’ (whatever that means) about everything then what’s left?

I have a friend who’s an excruciatingly talented composer who said that Goldsmith’s Mulan was ‘painful’ for him to listen to. ‘Crass’ was another choice word. He thought the music modulated abruptly, that it contained clich�d oriental elements and was orchestrated badly. I didn’t know what to say in response. It has a very special place in my heart, having been my real introduction to Jerry. But on an utterly brutal ‘objective’ level I know exactly why it would be sneered at. I can see how it’s ‘bad’; in its simplicity and lack of counterpoint and basic orchestration. That doesn’t stop me from thinking that it’s a very moving, exciting, sensitive score though, and leagues ahead of most of the trash from the late nineties.

Err, where am I going with this?

Bad comparison perhaps.. I’m doing my best to play devils advocate. :p

In my comments, I mean no disrespect to anybody - particularly Arthierr of course, without whom this forum would not have anywhere near the level of focussed, intelligent, musically-informed discussion that it does. His thread allowed the "people like us" to have a place to call home, away from the "ZOMG ITS SO EPIC!" and "I WANT LOSSLESS GLADIATOR IT DA BEST SCORE EVA" that seems to dominate the rest of the forum.

I merely approach this subject from the perspective of a genuinely interested party; not somebody who is trying to prove that this album is crap and anybody who likes it is a moron - I just want to assess it fairly and get away from the blind adoration which it receives so readily.


When I said �spirit� I meant exactly that; it should at least convey a sense of adventure and imagination comparable to its source, otherwise it�s a failure.

I agree. I think in the statement you were replying to, I may have inadvertantly suggested that I believed the "spirit" to be a very one dimensional, physical thing related to performance technique, arrangement, etc. Not so.

A talented arranger could do the "Actraiser Duo for pennywhistle and theremin" and it could capture the spirit of the game. It would be bloody good fun as well.


To be a really successful symphony it must be an expansion and development as well � *development* is really what a symphony means as far as I�m concerned. Melodic, rhythmic, harmonic combinations always have implications, are always pregnant with possibilites. But there must be some sort of sincere relation to the original.

Often the best music, regardless of source, is imbued with a sense of symphonic narrative and natural development anyway. Nicely orchestrated crap is still crap, and a poorly performed synthesiser symphony is still a symphony.


actually tried to compose a symphonic sonata allegro based on Wing Fortress Zone, but that was purely for my own amusement.

Now that I'd like to hear!


I do happily listen to select tracks from the game though from time to time. But I like the limited nature of 16 and 8 bit synth. I even have NES stuff on my mp3 player. Wouldn�t be without it.

Likewise. I marvel at how much composers managed to achieve with such limited resources. There is something about a massively reduced ensemble (whether that be live musicians, or a three-track NES sound chip) that forces you to pay more attention to what you're writing. You can't hide behind gestures, and you can't use superficial grandeur or a wall of sound to conjure up "epicness" - you are reliant more than ever on emotional content, and your ability to manipulate it through melody, development, and judicious arrangement.


As you say, the collectors-item/novelty/fetish status seems to be at least as important as musical quality.

In some circumstances, moreso!


Could one of the vested interests you speak of be the desire to raise the staus to videogames to that of an artform? The prestige associated with classical music etc.

I wonder how many fans of game music actually consider classical music to be prestigious. Most people I would imagine consider it to be a boring intellectual exercise in which old men with degrees pore over meaningless details and pretend to be clever. That's certainly the impression I get from most people to whom I explain my interests...


I have a friend who�s an excruciatingly talented composer who said that Goldsmith�s Mulan was �painful� for him to listen to. �Crass� was another choice word. He thought the music modulated abruptly, that it contained clich�d oriental elements and was orchestrated badly.

This may be a case of over-intellectualising. Mulan isn't a score that you can sit down and write a seven hundred page dissertation about - or a detailed leitmotivic analysis. Nineties Goldsmith wasn't about that; it was about direct application of very clear emotions. It was his post-Recall era in which he was consciously simplifying as far as possible as he realised that the finer details (which dominated the compositional process) were lost underneath sound effects and mad-butcher music editors. So he thinned out, simplified.

Those kind of comments about music can be made without even hearing it, and it's that kind of analysis that bothers me. Music isn't notes on a page - it's emotions translated into sound. Anybody who gets so caught up in the technical musicology to the extent where they forget how to feel music... shouldn't be trusted.

I generally find composers end up like this... It's a shame.


I can see how it�s �bad�; in its simplicity and lack of counterpoint and basic orchestration.

All completely meaningless and have absolutely no influence whatsoever in its ability to convey feelings.

If it offends the sensibility of somebody who is more interested in snobbish analysis and complexity-for-the-hell-of-it, then so what? :)

I wonder how many fans of game music actually consider classical music to be prestigious. Most people I would imagine consider it to be a boring intellectual exercise in which old men with degrees pore over meaningless details and pretend to be clever. That's certainly the impression I get from most people to whom I explain my interests...

Ah, but here’s the hypocrisy. How often in arguments have I heard the ‘well this band uses an orchestra in their songs’ line? Or the old chestnut that ‘Metal is more like classical music than rock or pop’. Young people do despise classical, but mostly just because they don’t feel they can ‘identify’ with it. It’s not NOW so it’s not ME. This is also why everyone eventually decides to retreat to Classic FM in middle-age, when the zeitgeist has tossed them on the garbage heap. It’s as shallow as that. But underneath there is still the recognition, I think, that ‘symphonies’, ‘orchestras’ etc in some way bestow ‘class’, ‘status’ and intellectual substance - in other words, inverted snobbery. Of course, the average clubber couldn’t give two shits about any of that, but pseuds and geeks, which account for a large proportion of ‘hardcore gamers’, love it.


Mulan isn't a score that you can sit down and write a seven hundred page dissertation about - or a detailed leitmotivic analysis.

Oh but I could ;) Well, maybe not 700 pages…


All completely meaningless and have absolutely no influence whatsoever in its ability to convey feelings.

If it offends the sensibility of somebody who is more interested in snobbish analysis and complexity-for-the-hell-of-it, then so what?

Totally agree, but it still bothered me more than it should. I guess some people think that’s what I’m like when I bash pop music or contemporary cinema. It was a taste of my own medicine, and I didn’t like it!

But on an utterly brutal �objective� level I know exactly why it would be sneered at. I can see how it�s �bad�; in its simplicity and lack of counterpoint and basic orchestration. That doesn�t stop me from thinking that it�s a very moving, exciting, sensitive score though, and leagues ahead of most of the trash from the late nineties.

If i may ask, but what is a counterpoint or countertheme and/or countermelody?
These are terms that i usually read from music sites.
If Mulan doesn't have a counterpoint then what album i know where the music use some counterpoint?
Is Indy raiders march, one example of music with counterpoint? I'm asking because it looks for me that this theme has 2 melodies, where one start playing when the other end, or am i completely confused on this matter? :confused:

Broadly speaking, counterpoint means two melodies, or melodic lines, playing together at the same time.

The Indy March is a superb example of this, you're absolutely dead-on correct.

The term has more overly complex overtones, but 99% of the time, when somebody speaks of counterpoint, they are referring to two (or more) distinct lines of thought happening together, and fitting appropriately.

Going even further off topic - the Raider's March did in fact start off as two separate melodies that John Wiliiams submitted as potential theme tunes. The director liked them both, couldn't chose between them, and so Williams took both his themes, and combined them into the now iconic Raider's March.

Sometimes counterpoint can be purely ornamental, but often it's used as a narrative device, particularly in film music. One of my favourite uses of counterpoint in all film music occurs in Alexander Courage's Superman IV score.

The film was terrible, but this scene was great and it was scored so beautifuly: Here is the scene, on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mIWerpEgg

Superman is standing in the United Nations building, delivering a speech on nuclear disarmament. At the climax of the speech (at 1:25), the score erupts, and Courage gives us the Superman march, the Lois Lane love theme, as well as two other themes representing other characters who's reaction to Superman's speech is important - all playing simultaneously. That twenty seconds of score tells us that Superman has done something heroic, he loves Lois and she loves him, and that everybody has come together in support for his plan. That is CLEVER WORK. Alexander Courage (rest his soul) was a massively underestimated genius.

I get very confused over it as well. I guess if we consider the Raiders March to have counterpoint, then so does Mulan! I tend to think of it more as different lines that directly overlap, rather than sections of the same theme following on from one another. I'd also consider a counter theme to be one that contrasts with the main subject - the Indy one seems more like an natural outgrowth of the opening phrase, not so much a 'counter' to it, but I'm probably getting that wrong.


the Raider's March did in fact start off as two separate melodies that John Wiliiams submitted as potential theme tunes. The director liked them both, couldn't chose between them, and so Williams took both his themes, and combined them into the now iconic Raider's March.

Do you buy this? I know Williams said that in an interview, but I mean he writes ALL his themes this way, with an opening few bars and then a second section that is sort of a variation on the first. Star Wars, for instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXcoM_AHuk8 - I know you all know it, but just for reference
Opening section from 0:08 to 0:28, with an initial idea presented then repeated, and then a second section (countertheme if you like) from 0:28 to 0:42, again with repeated phrasing - exactly like in Indy!



Superman is standing in the United Nations building, delivering a speech on nuclear disarmament. At the climax of the speech (at 1:25), the score erupts, and Courage gives us the Superman march, the Lois Lane love theme, as well as two other themes representing other characters who's reaction to Superman's speech is important - all playing simultaneously.
I could cry at the nobility of this music.

Another great bit of counterpoint from Jerry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hymTyyOxKAs
Love that sexy string theme draping itself all over the Gremlins rag! Looks like the players are enjoying it too :)

Counterpoint is also used in scores to signify tension. Goldsmith and Williams do this in action music, sometimes even presenting a theme fugally. Goldsmith's Patton is another good example of overlapping themes...

[Forgive us Arthierr for taking this thread so off topic - we know not what we do!]

I get very confused over it as well. I guess if we consider the Raiders March to have counterpoint, then so does Mulan! I tend to think of it more as different lines that directly overlap, rather than sections of the same theme following on from one another. I'd also consider a counter theme to be one that contrasts with the main subject - the Indy one seems more like an natural outgrowth of the opening phrase, not so much a 'counter' to it, but I'm probably getting that wrong.

Ohh, now we're getting complicated! ;)

There's bucketloads of counterpoint in Mulan. Granted, it's not as forthright or obvious as in Goldsmith's earlier, busier music, but it's still there. Some people dislike the 90's streamlined Jerry; whilst I prefer him in his sixties experimentation and seventies extravagances mode, there's a great deal of good stuff to be had here.

As for counterthemes, that's another toughie. People get counterthemes and counterpoint mixed up - I see it a lot when non-musical people try to adopt musical language and end up making absolute howlers.

To me, as you said, a countertheme isn't a continuation of an existing theme; it's something of a restatement of that theme but from a different perspective. It's not another part of theme one - it's theme one viewed through the distorting mirror. No, wait... that sounds more like a variation. I hate music theory.

Right - a variation modifies the theme, embellishes it, dresses it in a different outfit, but retains its basic meaning. A countertheme modifies a theme to re-interpret its meaning; it's not a variation on the first theme - it's another theme of similar structure and retains some cursory structural or melodic connection with it...?


Do you buy this? I know Williams said that in an interview, but I mean he writes ALL his themes this way, with an opening few bars and then a second section that is sort of a variation on the first.

Come to think of it, it does sound like a lot of bollocks, doesn't it?

That and this "second theme" clearly sounds like a secondary subject to me. It doesn't sound like a main theme. It sounds like......... a response to the main theme. If you sit down at a piano and play it independently, it sounds like it's the answer to a question you haven't heard yet; without the question, and answer is of course meaningless! (42...)

It was an interesting story, and one relevant to counterpoint - but actually listening to the piece in a little more detail... I doubt it.


I could cry at the nobility of this music.

Not just me then...?


Another great bit of counterpoint from Jerry:
Love that sexy string theme draping itself all over the Gremlins rag! Looks like the players are enjoying it too :)

The bad recording unwittingly spotlights that lovely theme (I can't quite describe it; macarbe, romantic, playful, sensual? All of the above??? I miss Jerry...) to the extent that the main theme (performed on brass) is almost inaudible. It really drives home the brilliance of what he was doing; this secondary subject - which any other composer would probably treat as just an orchestration detail - is so lovely in itself.

Did that theme occur at all in the score, or was it literally just counterpoint in the rag? It's almost too good not to show up... It's been a few years since I've listened to Gremlins.


Counterpoint is also used in scores to signify tension. Goldsmith and Williams do this in action music, sometimes even presenting a theme fugally. Goldsmith's Patton is another good example of overlapping themes...

Thank you, sir, for mentioning Patton! A smashing work.

If I may enter another example of Jerry greatness which is vaguely relevant: The Omen - the love theme is a thinly cloaked variation of Ave Satani. Absolutely brilliant. (Irrelevant as far as counterpoint discussion goes, but along the same lines, a fine example of a theme with a dual personality. It's almost emotional counterpoint. That's a bizzare concept that will keep me awake tonight...


[Forgive us Arthierr for taking this thread so off topic - we know not what we do!]

*speaks in tongues*

Tango & Lens, thanks for the explanations about conterpoint. That's always a pleasure to read your informative posts. I guess Zimmer's Joker note doesn't use any counterpoint themes right? :)

Arthierr, please forgive me for all this off-topic conversations in your thread.



Another great bit of counterpoint from Jerry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hymTyyOxKAs
Love that sexy string theme draping itself all over the Gremlins rag! Looks like the players are enjoying it too :)


Oh very nice find.


Goldsmith's Patton is another good example of overlapping themes...
And may i add Macarthur too. I suppose that Patton and Macarthur marches are almost similar in their overlapping themes.


Counterpoint is also used in scores to signify tension. Goldsmith and Williams do this in action music, sometimes even presenting a theme fugally. Goldsmith's Patton is another good example of overlapping themes...

Speaking of Williams and Goldsmith, i must be the only one that think the very first notes of Macarthur march and Raiders march are almost identic, like suggesting a 'call to march':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I57YXYfOE5E (0:16 - 0:32)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiMWZbly-Yw (0:00 - 0:08)





There's bucketloads of counterpoint in Mulan. Granted, it's not as forthright or obvious as in Goldsmith's earlier, busier music, but it's still there. Some people dislike the 90's streamlined Jerry; whilst I prefer him in his sixties experimentation and seventies extravagances mode, there's a great deal of good stuff to be had here.

Off-off topic: I don't understand why Jerry's in the 90's is not so highly apreciated for a good part of his fans of 60's, 70's and even 80's music. First Knight, Rudy, Basic Instinct, Total Recall, just to name a few, maybe aren't so creative like his earlier scores, but for me they are in a list of Jerry's greatests works, imo


The Omen - the love theme is a thinly cloaked variation of Ave Satani. Absolutely brilliant. (Irrelevant as far as counterpoint discussion goes, but along the same lines, a fine example of a theme with a dual personality. It's almost emotional counterpoint. That's a bizzare concept that will keep me awake tonight...
Now that's something it never occurred to me. As much as lovely and tender that family or love theme really is (Thank God ;), there's a bit of solace to balance the devilish music), i would never though of that connection of themes. Need to listen again.
But what do i know? Since the parade march of the Phantom Menace is exactly the emperor's theme from Jedi, any musical trick might happen without anyone noticing it. :p

To return to counterpoint for a second, I think what we’re getting muddled over is the two main senses of the term, and it’s worth being as clear as possible:

1. Counterpoint is a basic element of music, like rhythm or harmony, and at the most fundamental level simply refers to the relationship that exists between each part or ‘voice’ in the music. Hence, any music which has multiple independent parts can be said to work in varying degrees of counterpoint (eg not Gregorian chant or a solo violin sonata).

2. It is also, more particularly, a deliberate stylistic feature and a way of structuring and texturing the music with contoured lines interweaving (each line needn’t be a full melody in itself). Fugues, which were a popular form in Baroque music, are one of the most obvious examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHMJFhJNycM

So, I would say that in Indiana Jones the main march is only contrapuntal in the broad first sense – it has a syncopated ostinato tugging away, but otherwise everything is in service of the principle melody. An example of the stricter kind (no. 2) would be the Motorbike Scherzo, which is audibly more complex and difficult to follow.


Right - a variation modifies the theme, embellishes it, dresses it in a different outfit, but retains its basic meaning. A countertheme modifies a theme to re-interpret its meaning; it's not a variation on the first theme - it's another theme of similar structure and retains some cursory structural or melodic connection with it...?

The term countertheme seems to be looser, I would just think of it in the same way as a second subject, with an identity of its own, a contrasting theme, but it must be conceived as a follow-on from the main theme. It’s a term most often applied to Classical symphonies and suggests a very structured relationship between the themes which isn’t always applicable to film music.

I suppose it would also be correct to describe the violin line in the Gremlins Rag as a countermelody, working as it does in counterpoint with the main tune. So again, there are many shadings to the term.

Variation I wouldn’t try to tie down at all. Even in the classical context of ‘theme and variations’, like Brahms Haydn Variations or Beethoven’s Variations on ‘Rule Britannia’, they can depart significantly from the character of the original.


Did that theme occur at all in the score, or was it literally just counterpoint in the rag? It's almost too good not to show up... It's been a few years since I've listened to Gremlins.

I don’t *think* so. But it does bear a resemblance to the Gizmo theme / love theme and the tail end of it is a motif that appears in all sorts of guises throughout the score. In fact, I don’t think it crops-up like this until the End Credits arrangement of Gremlins 2 and in his concert arrangements. But my memory's fuzzy.


Come to think of it, it does sound like a lot of bollocks, doesn't it?
I actually LOL’d when I heard that on the dvd bonus doc. They were totally scraping the barrel for things to say. But was it Williams or Spielberg who spun that one? Can’t remember. Much as I respect Spielberg as a creator of solid mass entertainments, he does talk some crap in interviews. Still it’s a nice way to get people thinking about how the music’s put together, even if it’s COMPLETE BALONEY! :D


If I may enter another example of Jerry greatness which is vaguely relevant: The Omen - the love theme is a thinly cloaked variation of Ave Satani. Absolutely brilliant. (Irrelevant as far as counterpoint discussion goes, but along the same lines, a fine example of a theme with a dual personality. It's almost emotional counterpoint.
Is it?? Hang on.. *hums themes to self*

Oh I see. The ‘Piper Dreams’ theme derives from that tritonal piano motif (I LOVE that motif so much!) which also kick-starts the Ave Satani. There are several spine-tingling quiet cues in which Goldsmith reveals this relationship. It’s sort of the germ of the score.

Goldsmith has said (and I do believe this one) that his composition method is to start with one theme or motif that he feels is the essence of the film, and all subsequent ideas derive from it. It’s even there in Mulan – think of Mulan’s theme, the Imperial theme, the theme of family/honour (first heard when the father is lighting incense and praying for Mulan) – all clearly related, modal themes. Logan’s Run is another stunning example; the Main Title actually ‘shows’ you the unfolding of the musical material from that opening synth figure!!

In this way, I think of Goldsmith as a true practitioner of Wagnerian leitmotif (IMO a much misused term in film music commentary) – short motifs or cells that develop through the music. Whereas Williams, say, usually presents broad, songful, foursquare themes.


Off-off topic: I don't understand why Jerry's in the 90's is not so highly apreciated for a good part of his fans of 60's, 70's and even 80's music. First Knight, Rudy, Basic Instinct, Total Recall, just to name a few, maybe aren't so creative like his earlier scores, but for me they are in a list of Jerry's greatests works, imo
Yes, Jerry started to wear his heart on his sleeve more in the 90s, and some of the scores are beautiful. There are still moments of complexity and rigorous modernity though that few film composers have matched. His last score for Looney Tunes is rather busy and complex, the rhythms shift around all over the place! It has a fugal passage too in ‘Bad Guys’ – ‘Fugue for Orchestra, Slide Whistle and Kitchen Sink’ :p

Who’d have thought this thread would turn into Music Theory 101?!!!!

Have a great weekend everyone, and apologies for obscene off-topicness!!

Thank you for this! I remember spending all night downloading the lossy version like 10 years ago. Not the best classical performance and not such great classical music on its own, but pretty incredible for SNES music. Plus, most of my classical music snob friends (including myself) think at least the all strings track Filmoa stands on its own as a nice piece.

This is so beautiful, thank you so much! Before this I could only listen to on youtube when I have internet. Now I can carry around with me all the time :)

Thanks! You mind if I share this as well? I already replaced my previous version with this one.

Bravo ~
arthierr , thank u so much !!

Thank you

Could someone reupload this please? The file is not found.

Working links here:
Thread 93040
Thread 127001