I sifted through Google for a while, and I bring it to you.

Somebody else posted this. Sorry if this has been posted here before.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nomgi1mw51n

Enjoy!

Edit: For the songs in Kanji that can't be extracted, change their names.

Thank you so much! I’ve been looking for this.

Gonna check this out. Thank you for sharing!

Nipponsei (http://nipponsei.minglong.org/tracker/) has just released a high-quality rip of the OST. Head to their site to download the torrent for it.

My God, there's more of this stuff? Kawai fans must be in their element... Not my thing but thanks for posting. :)

My God, there's more of this stuff? Kawai fans must be in their element... Not my thing but thanks for posting. :)

Danny, don't ruin Christmas.

Hey, now come on - I wasn't ungrateful, I wasn't rude. I merely expressed surprise that there had been another album (four OSTs for any anime is a bit rare) and said that, whilst it wasn't my thing, the kind efforts of the uploader were well appreciated.

If that ruins Christmas for you, I'd hate to see what the exploding turkey, bickering relatives, crippling debt, and crap on the TV do... ;)

Hey, now come on - I wasn't ungrateful, I wasn't rude.
Dude, I was joking.


I merely expressed surprise that there had been another album (four OSTs for any anime is a bit rare)
You think so? I figured 3-4 OSTs is the norm for 50 episode series, or in this case, 2 OSTs per 25-episode season. This seems especially true for the major Sunrise-Bandai series. Code Geass, Gundam Seed, and Seed Destiny all received 4 OST releases each.

What I don't get is how 12-episode series can receive more than one OST, or how 300-500 episode series receive 4 OSTs or less. Something is definitely wrong there.


If that ruins Christmas for you, I'd hate to see what the exploding turkey, bickering relatives, crippling debt, and crap on the TV do... ;)
I don't really think you would hate to see that. Then again, neither would I (except the debt and TV stuff).

I guess I'll say a bit more about the soundtrack and the series. For those who love free anime on the net, you'd know that fansub groups have finished translating all 25 episodes of the second season of Gundam 00, bringing the series to a close.

It's a shame to see it end, but thinking back, the most prominent reason I liked this series so much was the music. I probably would've quit watching after that BS attempt at making the audience sad with Nena Trinity's killing spree during the first season. I can spot "stupid tragedy" over "genuine tragedy"; if Code Geass couldn't fool me with that whole Euphemia massacre crap, this sure wasn't going to work.

The battle themes in 00 stand out the most; they really convey the feeling of fighting against a corrupt authority. That and they just generally kick ass. The one thing I worry most about new Gundam series is whether I can get into the music or not. The last thing I want is generic symphonic music (i.e. Gundam Seed Destiny).

Admittedly, the first OST is way too repetitive with the main theme of Celestial Being. The only versions Kawai needed were "Intervention" and "Beating". The other 3 OSTs are much more unique, but they're not without repetition; that's Kawai's reputation for better or worse. Nevertheless, it's a strong series of soundtracks that more than hold their own in the long history of Gundam music.

This probably replaces Patlabor as my favourite of his works. I don't know how he can top it, but I'll look forward to finding out. As for Gundam, frankly I think the technology's gone too far. I'd like to see a slight return to the early days, when giant mobile suits weren't more agile than ninjas and had the ability to teleport DBZ style.

Dude, I was joking.

Dude, I know. ;)


You think so? I figured 3-4 OSTs is the norm for 50 episode series, or in this case, 2 OSTs per 25-episode season. This seems especially true for the major Sunrise-Bandai series. Code Geass, Gundam Seed, and Seed Destiny all received 4 OST releases each.

I should've said, "with the exception of Gundam" -- there's a few shows that get four, but I would say by far the majority of shows go by with just one, or maybe two if the first one sells (and occasionally the second one is full of dreck that wasn't good enough for the first one). I was pretty surprised that 00 would get four. Granted, Seed and Seed Destiny did, but Kawai's scores for 00... Honestly, do they deserve four discs?


What I don't get is how 12-episode series can receive more than one OST, or how 300-500 episode series receive 4 OSTs or less. Something is definitely wrong there.

It seems to depend on money, as usual... If people bought the first one and the franchise isn't dead, and there's still some tracks left on the cutting room floor, there will be another CD. Some of these things are blatant cash-ins. Not wanting to go off-topic, I've seen a few shows lately (I completely forget which ones) that got silly 35 minute soundtrack releases (obviously with the "maybe we can put out a second CD" idea in mind) - and yet they still manage a disc for the OP and a disc for the ED, and a disk for remixes of the above, a disc of songs vaguely related to the series, another disc of remixes and karaoke versions, and another disc with clips of dialogue... It goes on.

As far as 300-500 episode series' go, they're probably (with a few exceptions) recycling the same scores that were recorded at the beginning of the series. I'm sure they're not going to go back to the recording studio every six months to lay down some new tracks when they can just edit and chop around what they already have.

Gundam 00, with its pre-determined length, I would imagine had all this planned out before the first episode aired. Kawai got asked for 2 hours, or three hours of score, they went and recorded it, and that's it.

Who knows? :(

I entirely agree however - there are some shows that really another OST or ten... Particularly those that have been running for 1 year+.


The battle themes in 00 stand out the most; they really convey the feeling of fighting against a corrupt authority. That and they just generally kick ass. The one thing I worry most about new Gundam series is whether I can get into the music or not. The last thing I want is generic symphonic music (i.e. Gundam Seed Destiny).

***ATTENTION FOLKS - Kawai criticism ahead. No offense intended to the poster. Just an attempt by me to put forward the reasons why I don't like it, and hopefully get some feedback on why other people DO! :) I'm very interested in what it is about Kawai that gets so many people excited - the fact that I don't can only be my failing, so there's no need for anybody to feel slighted or offended. ***

Wow - I found Seed and Seed Destiny *ANYTHING* but generic; they were fine examples of the genre, thematically rich, incredibly diverse, and full of Sahashi's own very distinctive voice. His fine education, keen ear, and experience all shone through very clearly.

As a matter of fact, they're two of my favourite scores for any medium - not just Gundam or even anime. I guess one can only speak on behalf of one's own taste!

In comparison, I found Kawai's Gundam 00 to be curiously... flat. Kawai has his style, and a very very unique one it is too - but with four discs of Gundam 00 now released, his limitations become clearer. There's nothing wrong with repetition; but there's a difference between repetition for effect, and just saying the same thing over and over again. That's the kind of impression I get from Kawai. Very distinctive ideas, but also very concise ideas; which never receive any kind of development or embellishment.

He appears to be very conscious of over-egging the pudding in the sense that we don't get five million melodies and everything-but-the-kitchen-sink... But in his attempts to not overdo it, he ends up underdoing it and so we end up with 150 tracks all of which progress predictably and repetitively.

When I hear most Kawai, I find all the colour disappearing from my vision. I find the music quite claustophobic. I do admire Kawai's directness - I thought it worked superbly in Avalon - for the minimalistic, claustrophobic world in which the film was set, Kawai's music was absolutely PERFECT. But I really can't accept this style in something like Gundam - which more-or-less DEMANDS a grander symphonic technique. Kanno's ravishing symphonic tracks for Turn-A are undoubtedly the epitomy of this style in Gundam (regardless of the plagiarism - another argument for another thread) but even Megumi Ohashi's militaristic scores for Igloo 1 and 2, and Senju's gorgeous impressionistic scores for Victory... They work. Kawai's music in Gundam 00 feels very lacking.

I've never heard such dull arrangements in my life. Even Kawai usually does better than this. Gundam 00's arrangements are very black and white in my eyes. Maybe this is an attempt to convey the grittier style of the series compared to the more extravagant Seed and Seed Destiny, but to me it just doesn't work. Whatever good intentions there were (and believe me, I don't doubt that the intentions were good) it sounds dull. Once again this seems to be a conscious effort to avoid over-florid orchestrations and being overbearingly symphonic. Unfortunately we have boring arrangements with boring themes, being repeated in a boring predictable manner. People seem to really love it, but I cannot for the life of me understand why. Obviously I must be missing something, but to me, by far the majority of music in 00 (or any other Kawai score with the curious exception of Avalon - a stunningly gorgeous composition from start to finish) is absolutely generic, cookie cutter Kawai. It's loud, repetitive, completely predictable, interchangeable, and oh-so-bland.


Admittedly, the first OST is way too repetitive with the main theme of Celestial Being. The only versions Kawai needed were "Intervention" and "Beating".

Completely agree. But this is Kawai all over - take a theme and beat it to death. If it's a good theme, nobody is going to mind hearing it a thousand times. But you have to have a good theme, and you have to play with it a bit... The Celestial Being theme is absolutely horrific. Again, when I hear it, I just feel all life being dragged from my body. It's a curious feeling!


The other 3 OSTs are much more unique, but they're not without repetition; that's Kawai's reputation for better or worse. Nevertheless, it's a strong series of soundtracks that more than hold their own in the long history of Gundam music.

Gundam has certainly got a chequered history as far as music is concerned. I have no doubt that 00 will be remembered as one of the most popular scores the series ever received, whilst (once again, in my opinion) it doesn't deserve it, particularly when compared to some of the other efforts in the series.

Gundam 00's score is what it is. It's not as bad as Stardust Memory, at least! But I really don't see it standing up under scrutiny when compared to Sahashi's Seed/Destiny, Kanno's Turn-A, Senju's Victory, Kadokura's F91, Tanaka's G, and my all time favourite Gundam score, Higuchi's After War X.

Peace, gentlemen. :)

That's quite a lot at which to respond, and I'm not sure I can craft a response that clearly conveys what I want to say. Maybe this weekend.

Some things I'd like to mention right now:


Wow - I found Seed and Seed Destiny *ANYTHING* but generic; they were fine examples of the genre, thematically rich, incredibly diverse, and full of Sahashi's own very distinctive voice. His fine education, keen ear, and experience all shone through very clearly.
This was in reference to my comment about Gundam Seed Destiny. I should specify that Gundam Seed's OST was great. SD fell short. The reason why is intuitive if you change your perspective a little.

Gundam Seed had 4 OSTs for 50 episodes. SD had 4 OSTs for 50 episodes. Both sets of soundtracks were by the same composer using the same instruments to compose the same type of music for the same basic plot. Therefore, it's not 4 OSTs for 50 episodes each; it's 8 OSTs for 100 episodes.

The freshness of Seed's music wore off when we got the same thing in SD. Moreover, I believe there's a greater mix of symphonic music in SD over the electronic and electric guitar music in Seed, so variety is no longer the spice of life (I'm not willing to confirm that because I'd have to listen to all 8 OSTs again). Shin's theme is great, but like the series itself, SD's music left me unimpressed (Shin's a douche).


But I really don't see it standing up under scrutiny when compared to Sahashi's Seed/Destiny, Kanno's Turn-A, Senju's Victory, Kadokura's F91, Tanaka's G, and my all time favourite Gundam score, Higuchi's After War X.
I noticed that Kou Ootani's Gundam Wing and Shigeaki Saegusa's Zeta Gundam didn't make that list. That's a surprise. If you want to talk about major popularity in Gundam, those two make the top of the list. I also like to thank Kou Ootani for being the first Gundam music composer to make the electric guitar the major focal point in the BGM (Tanaka, not so much). Who'd a thought symphonic rock would work in a series about giant robots killing each other? Kou knows.

The freshness of Seed's music wore off when we got the same thing in SD. Moreover, I believe there's a greater mix of symphonic music in SD over the electronic and electric guitar music in Seed, so variety is no longer the spice of life (I'm not willing to confirm that because I'd have to listen to all 8 OSTs again). Shin's theme is great, but like the series itself, SD's music left me unimpressed (Shin's a douche).

I found Destiny very fresh, to be honest. Yes, the score is closely related to that of Seed, but it really couldn't be any other way since the series' are so closely connected. Destiny (in terms of score,) to me, was very much a natural progression of the style established in Seed. There's a bigger orchestra, more money, and Sahashi's style has shifted and developed. By contrast, whilst I still love Seed, I found it the inferior of the two.

As far as "variety being the space of life", I find it incredibly jarring when there is a different genre of music turning up in every cue. I found Destiny's consistency very appealing.

As for the show, I'm afraid I've never seen it. I gather it's a piece of shit, from what I've heard... Although it seems to be ripped to shreds by established Gundam fans, but universally loved by newcomers. Would you think it was worth watching for somebody who would like to get into Gundam but would like an easy window in?


I noticed that Kou Ootani's Gundam Wing and Shigeaki Saegusa's Zeta Gundam didn't make that list. That's a surprise. If you want to talk about major popularity in Gundam, those two make the top of the list.

Well, I wasn't trying to list the most popular; I was trying to list those that I feel are most worthy in the Gundam music canon. :)

Ootani is one of my "Big Three" group - with Kajiura and Kawai. Three composers whose music I just cannot relate to, despite constant effort. I cannot understand why they receive so much love, honestly I can't. We know what I think of Kawai. Kajiura mixes drab, unimaginative underscore with a cliched ethnic percussion beat. And, in interviews, I find her an incredibly arrogant, self-centered person. Ootani, well... I might be making a breakthrough with him, but we'll see; I seem to get along better with Ootani when I turn off my "must hear an orchestra" mode and just go along with the music.

So, who knows... I may end up as Ootani's biggest fan.

I found his "Wing" very fragmented and unfocussed. I'll give it another spin this evening though - maybe I'll suddenly "get it". ;)


I also like to thank Kou Ootani for being the first Gundam music composer to make the electric guitar the major focal point in the BGM (Tanaka, not so much). Who'd a thought symphonic rock would work in a series about giant robots killing each other? Kou knows.

Well, if you ask me, it doesn't... Shoving an electric guitar into symphonic music is a shortcut taken by lesser-composers who can't handle an orchestra, and who want a quick-and-dirty rousing, upbeat, epic sound. Everything sounds good when you stick a fast rock beat and an electronic guitar in there. It sounds all right but it's incredibly superficial.

Many thanks for your comments - looking forward to reading more. :)

As for the show, I'm afraid I've never seen it. I gather it's a piece of shit, from what I've heard... Although it seems to be ripped to shreds by established Gundam fans, but universally loved by newcomers. Would you think it was worth watching for somebody who would like to get into Gundam but would like an easy window in?
That's a good question. My major gripe with it is that Shin Asuka (the main character, sort of) constantly makes stupid decisions and never gets killed for it. He's one of those bitch-characters that really deserves to die, like Katajina Loos from V Gundam (don't worry if you don't know who that is, you're missing nothing). In terms of production values, forget the music for a second. The animation suffers from constantly reusing clips from previous episodes, both for flashbacks and in battle scenes. Seed did this too, but SD seems to get off on it. The story is a bit more complex than Seed - less emotional, more political. Finally, the last two episodes are basically a copy-and-paste of the last two episodes of Seed.

Newcomers probably like it because they're relatively young enough that they haven't seen the cliches of Gundam writing. One of the major ones is that characters commit stupid actions for stupid reasons. A mature viewer will likely see this as weak writing. It's not as bad as some of the crap that Yoshiyuki Tomino, the director of the first Gundam series, tried to pull. In addition, the Seed series does have some parallels between its universe and that of the original series. Such shoutouts may be lost on a non-Gundam fan. I guess if you've got some time and you can watch it cheaply, you should. Just don't go out of your way. (EDIT: you'd also get a chance to hear the music you like in its intended context)


Well, I wasn't trying to list the most popular; I was trying to list those that I feel are most worthy in the Gundam music canon. :)
Again, I'm surprised. Not so much for Ootani, but Shigeaki Saegusa really doesn't suit you? I've misread your taste. I'll make a guess and say that you consider it to be too simple (it is much older than any of the OSTs we've discussed so far). Regardless, it definitely set the tone for the rest of Gundam music. The previous Gundam series before Zeta was the original Mobile Suit Gundam, featuring spacey, silly, simple themes. Zeta switched over to a symphonic genre that reflected the dark, melodramatic atmosphere of director Tomino's series. I'll say nothing about ZZ Gundam.


Ootani is one of my "Big Three" group - with Kajiura and Kawai. Three composers whose music I just cannot relate to, despite constant effort. I cannot understand why they receive so much love, honestly I can't.
Well I won't argue for Kajiura. I find her mediocre to slightly good. For Ootani, I used to be a huge fan, yet I would put him in the category of artists who are getting worse. The last OST he did that I found very impressive was Shadow of the Colossus.


Shoving an electric guitar into symphonic music is a shortcut taken by lesser-composers who can't handle an orchestra, and who want a quick-and-dirty rousing, upbeat, epic sound.
That or it's used by brilliant composers who don't let tradition or expectations of what music is "supposed to be" get in the way of fusing genres to take the best of both worlds. This creates a unique hybrid rather than simply meeting the status quo. The mere existence of an electric guitar in any song doesn't define how good it is. It has to be played well. The fact that electric guitars have such potential for greatness makes it that much more challenging for composers to create something that stands above the rest. Make no mistake; if Ootani's work hadn't lived up to rock songs I'd already heard, I would've rejected it. It's because he set the bar so high in GW that I reject a lot of the stuff he does today.

Alright, next time for sure, I will give you an explanation for why people like Kawai's music. Well, I'll give you an explanation for why I like it. To avoid going off on another tangent, I'm gonna give you the last word on the stuff I just posted without responding to your responses (EDIT: unless you want). Otherwise we'll just keep going back and forth with "I like this composer, you like that composer," etc. I generally prefer to end these discussions on a high note before getting too repetitive.

Still, if you don't mind going off on one more tangent, would you mind elaborating on what you like about Akira Senju's V Gundam scores? This is the first time that someone besides me has mentioned him.

Um, I like the discussion that is going on here, I'm too lazy to read all of it though. Just wanted to say thanks to the poster, even though I found this on another site. I'm currently listening to it right now as I'm typing. :)

Glad to help everybody out. :D

Although the posting wasn't mine, thought I'd share with everybody. =3

Okay, here we go.

Danny French wants to know just what's so good about Kenji Kawai:

I'm very interested in what it is about Kawai that gets so many people excited - the fact that I don't can only be my failing...
I'm guessing the failing you refer to here is not that it doesn't get you excited, rather that you don't understand why it does get other people excited. Hold on to your sanity as we attempt to solve this case of cognitive dissonance. The simple answer is that personal tastes vary, but we don't want simple answers, we want comprehensive answers.

Let's establish some rules for what music should be. I consider the golden rule of all music to be that it has to be "good," and that means whatever it means to each person in whichever context they choose. The only bad taste in music is the dishonest kind. I see this as liking a song for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the way the song sounds (i.e. FF music = awesome because it is by Nobuo Uematsu, DUHR). This is an important point, because it may be possible that you cannot accept that others truly like Kawai's music for the "right" reasons, that it's just a popularity contest. I assure you, the fact that 00's music is credited to Kawai isn't enough for me to say it = awesome, DUHR.

Some of the words you've used to describe Kawai's music include:

Predictable, flat, claustrophobic, concise, distinctive, black and white, interchangeable, bland, repetitive, horrific
I'll leave flat, bland, and horrific alone because that's really just personal perception. The rest is valid in one way or another. The purpose here isn't to convince you of why these attributes are good; you've heard Kawai's music, you're not gonna start liking it based on any argument I give. The key is to explain why the alternative to these attributes is bad.

Predictable. Before I start, I want to point out a possible contradiction in something you said. When talking about Kawai's music, you said it was predictable, which is bad. When talking about Ootani's music, you called it unfocused, which is bad. You don't like either trait, but predictability and focused have some similarity to them. I won't ask you to justify the difference to me; just think about what the two terms mean to you in terms of music as you read this.

There's no doubt that Kawai's music has an obvious destination (once you get far enough into the song). It's a pattern that he's pretty much adapted to most of his work. Part A repeats a couple of times, part B switches things up a bit, part A comes back, and part C ends the song. On the other hand, predictability has some benefits. The volume doesn't fluctuate wildly. Have you ever tried listening to a symphony while riding the bus? Sometimes it starts out so quiet that I'm not even aware that it's playing. After I boost the volume, it explodes in trumpets, symbol crashes, and other bric-a-brac, leaving me quite deaf. At least with predictable music, there's some consistency in the pitch, tempo, and style.

Besides, every song is predictable once you've listened to it enough. Kawai's appeal is that knowing what's coming makes it more enjoyable 'cause you know you're gonna like it (well, not you :)). Last on this, the fact that it's predictable means that there was a set plan in mind for the song's beginning, middle, and end; that's where "focused" comes in. The song "Strike" from OST 3 was leading up to a climactic finish that was usually heard in the show after Setsuna finished off some bastards.

Simple. I've decided to group claustrophobic, concise, black and white, and interchangeable into one category. I assume simplistic means it's short, has few variations, few instruments, and is similar in nature to other songs he does. This is all true. You can settle on the excuse that he's doing music for anime, which typically requires short songs. Not much of an excuse, but there it is.

This somewhat ties back to predictable, so simple music has the same advantage of being consistent in tempo and pitch. However, the true benefit of simple music is staying power. To demonstrate, use the humming test (not the hummer test). Try humming one of the songs from Gundam Seed Destiny. Some may be easier than others; it depends on how long it is or how many instruments are used to play it. Such songs may sound great when you listen to them, but they're unlikely to be very memorable. Admit it - you still remember the Celestial Being theme, even though you dislike it. I don't remember any of the songs I rejected from Hitoshi Sakimoto's FF12 OST.

The problem is that complex songs have a danger of sounding less like music and more like noise. If you can't even identify the tune, what are you really listening to? There's also the fact that long, complex songs can't just be a little good; they have to be damn good. I'm not going to listen to 5 minutes of trance music if there's only one 30-second good part. If it isn't all good, the song can piss off. Kawai avoids this problem with an identifiable tune and a shorter average length. Even if the whole song isn't good, the length of the good part in relation to the rest can justify keeping it.

Repetitive. I suspect this is the big one for you. Kawai often repeats the same part of a song, and remixes previous tracks into "new" tracks. This results in a formulaic OST that lacks creativity. This would seem to be his biggest flaw. As you pointed out, there's a difference between repetition for effect and beating a dead horse. But is that really the case for Kawai?

Let's talk a bit about formulas. They don't just apply to individual songs. Sometimes an entire OST corresponds to some formula. Remember when you said that Gundam demands a greater symphonic edge? Let me ask you something: why? Because it has been done in other Gundam series? Because giant robots are associated with symphonic music? Because it-is-Gundam-and-it-is-symphonic? None of those answers would convince me that that's the way it must be. What is unique about that particular genre that it belongs in Gundam? Gundam Seed, V Gundam, Gundam X, and Z Gundam all gave me an answer to that. Gundam SD did not; Sahashi was just doing what he did before, only it was now corresponding to a slightly altered version of the old formula ("Gundam music" hadn't included the contribution by Seed before SD). Once a genre is being applied for the sake of being applied, it's no longer a significant contribution. I bring this up to show that there is more than one way to be formulaic.

One last thing before I finish up this part of the discussion. Are you a VGM fan? It's obvious you like/love anime music, but I don't think I've heard you mention anything about VGM. I'd call it a safe bet to say that most people who come here are fans of both. In my case, I was a fan of VGM before I became a fan of anime music. VGM by it's very nature is quite repetitive; stage music (Megaman X) has to be continuous. Because of that, it's the norm for me to listen to music that loops once without gaps. Frankly I prefer it for songs under 2 minutes. Assuming that a lot of Kawai fans are VGM fans too, it should be easier for you to swallow why they don't have such a problem with repetition without much variation.

However, I think there is an effect. I think that Kawai purposely repeats much of a particular part of a song because he knows from years of experience what part of the song his fans will like the most. How else could I explain why the parts he repeats are almost always the part that I look forward to hearing the most? I reference the song "Strike" again.

Here's a comment you made about the Celestial Being theme:

If it's a good theme, nobody is going to mind hearing it a thousand times. But you have to have a good theme, and you have to play with it a bit.
The second sentence isn't valid. You didn't like the CB theme at all, so the fact that it was repetitive doesn't even enter into it; you rejected that song long before it started repeating itself. Unless of course the fact that it was repetitive was the only reason you rejected it. Feel free to correct me.

Thanks to the condition I gave at the start on what music must be, you should be closer to understanding why Kawai isn't as bad as he seems. I have favourite parts to each song, and I don't always want to waste time getting to it. I'll reference one of Senju's songs: V Gundam Score II - 01 Awakening Souls. It's a beautiful song that starts out with a very somber flute and string arrangement. At 2:03, it changes to a soothing (yet still sad) arrangement, the first 30 seconds of which particularly move me. Although the first part has its worth, I'd really rather hear the latter part first. With Kawai, he gives me what I want right away and bombards me with it until I've had enough (and I still haven't). He doesn't beat a dead horse, he highlights the greatness.

That's it. The failings you mentioned can be seen as advantages when you consider the alternative. Also consider the flaws in the songs you tend to like, and you'll come to understand why Kawai is such a big hit. You agree with it, you'll just understand it.

[Here comes another tangent]

But you aren't really here to find out why people like Kawai. I know why you're here. You think he sucks, and you want us to know it. :D That's okay; I do that too. I used to hate Nobuo Uematsu because his music after FF7 was so awful to me, especially the battle themes, yet every forum topic about VGM I saw was all, "Nobuo is God! EEEEEEEEEE!"

I couldn't stand it. I'd post to say that he's not god, he's a douche because he contributed to the ruin of FF (I started hating Squaresoft/Enix after playing Chrono Cross). I was wrong. His music after FF7 certainly did suck on the other FF games, but it wasn't his fault. The suckiness of Square-Enix poisoned his talent. After he left FF, his music appealed to me surprisingly quickly. I felt bad about thinking of him as a douche after that (though the pissy fanboys who tried to give me crap for that can still suck it).

You didn't come here to offend anyone. You just want to be the voice that says, "No, Kawai's music isn't good, and here's why..." Personally, I appreciate it. The fact is, if you hadn't pointed out how repetitive Kawai is within tracks, I probably never would have noticed (that's how much I love the parts he repeats). You haven't changed my appreciation for his music overall. Nevertheless, now that I am aware of it, I'll hold future releases of his music under greater scrutiny than before. If I ever gave mediocre songs of his any slack (probably not), I won't now. So thanks.

I'm pretty much done here. I don't think I can contribute anything more to this topic. I'll leave the last word on all this stuff to you (I will read it all), and I look forward to another discussion; it's been too long since I've had so much to say about anime and VG music.

One last thing. I gave Gundam Seed Destiny's music too much of a bad rap. The fact is I did like songs in the 4 CDs. To demonstrate how much, here are two scores.

Seed Destiny.
Retention rate (# of songs I kept from all 4 CDs): 21/123 = 17.07%
Average rating of kept songs (1 = good enough to keep; 5 = perfect): 54/21 = 2.57 out of 5

Compared to Seed.
Retention rate: 30/127 = 23.62%
Average rating: 82/30 = 2.73 out of 5

So there's not a world of difference; I didn't give any of the SD songs 5 stars, but I gave 5 of the Seed songs 5/5. ---The End

I just dont have pacience to answer anymore.

Lawrence_Bastard I LOVE, and Kenji Kawai I'll always LOVE.
I have being growing with Kenji Kawai forever.
Every composer has it's "repetitive" thing. But the one that can really get on my nerves and everyone seem to like him it's KAORU WADA. if someone would spend a day listen 3 soundtracks of him of diferent anime, it can easily be found SAME MUSICS, SAME ORCHESTRATIONS.
When I listen Ninja Scrool (listen on the movie) I hear the themes of 3x3 Eyes, Kishin Heidan, Silent Mobius movies.... HE RECICLES. and everyome likes him.
BUT... he his very good on game music. He can be more original when it cames to game music.
Get back to Kenji Kawai.....
Fusing genres it's GREAT! and i love it. it means a composer is not stricted on one musical thing his own life. he doesn't know just to play Orchestra.
Joe hisashi for example, he started making soundtracks with ONE and ONLY ONE SYNTHESIZER. is that BAD?
there was no money for orchestra, and it was the beggining of his career.
Kenji Kawai PLAYS, and i mean PLAYS GOOD, GUITAR, BASS, PIANO, DRUMS and PERCUSSIONS.
Go tell me he his a BAD MUSICIAN?

Youre a guy who is only DRUGGED with ORCHESTRA and no OPEN MIND.
No everyone MUST compose with an ORCHESTRA. GENIOUSES can be found without THAT.

YOU WANT ORCHESTRA? GO LISTEN AMERICAN SOUNDTRACKS AND GET OUT OF ANIME WORLD!

Good morning ladies and gents,

I'm away from home at the moment and typing this on a crappy mini-laptop with keys so small I'm virtually having to press them with matchsticks, so I'll be brief (ha ha ha) and make further comments when I get home tomorrow to the comfort of a real computer:

morrigan: I do not, and never will understand, your constant agression toward me on this forum. You are saying things to me that lead me to believe that you have not, in fact, read (or at least understood) anything I have said on this topic, and so are hardly qualified to tell me to take my opinion elsewhere.

Compounding this by yelling at me with ALL CAPS really is helping nobody.

For example:


Youre a guy who is only DRUGGED with ORCHESTRA and no OPEN MIND.
No everyone MUST compose with an ORCHESTRA. GENIOUSES can be found without THAT.

YOU WANT ORCHESTRA? GO LISTEN AMERICAN SOUNDTRACKS AND GET OUT OF ANIME WORLD!

1. I am not drugged with anything. My mind is open - yours is the closed mind, as evidenced by the screaming rage that you fly into whenever somebody expresses a taste different to yours. As I have said many, many, many times before, my tastes are wide ranging and not in the slightest bit genre-specific. I enjoy orchestral music; I enjoy other kinds of music too. On the other hand, your obsessive protection of Kawai and Ootani (as well as your frenzied attacks upon my taste, make you appear highly hypocritical.

2. Nobody composes WITH an orchestra, they compose FOR an orchestra. I realise this is no doubt a language difficulty but nevertheless - please do not presume to educate me on a topic where you are clearly lacking knowledge, or at the very least, the ability to express your knowledge courteously, accurately, or coherently.

3. Listen to American soundtracks? They're all orchestral, aren't they - obviously 100% of them will appeal to my simplistic backward taste which dictates that anything with an orchestra is superb and anything without is a pile of shit. Please, enough talking bollocks. Most (modern) American music doesn't appeal to my tastes because I find it bad music. In comparison, I find a great deal more to enjoy in the world of Asian music - hence my presence on this Asian-biased forum. I just have a personal distaste for Kawai and Ootani - LIVE WITH IT. Try to help me understand. Let me have opinions and feelings. Attacks do not and never will work and are hardly intelligent arguing tactics for you to adopt. If you don't want to help me understand, or you can't be bothered (fair enough) then you really don't have to say anything at all.

4. Before you completely hate me - I'll say something completely off topic but nevertheless relevant to your last post: I don't like Wada either. He's done some good work but by and large I find him boring, and as you say, repetitive. He's a great arranger but most of his composition leaves me cold. I've tried to get into his work a thousand times on the recommendations of other people for whom I have a lot of respect, but whatever it is he has, I just don't get it. Maybe that's my loss; I'm always keen to learn. But, for the record, I believe Kaoru Wada is ridiculously overrated. Heard Inuyasha, heard 'em all...

5. Hisaishi's early synthesiser scores are wonderful - Robot Carnival is a masterpiece. I don't give a damn if there's an orchestra or not; I care about the music.


Kenji Kawai PLAYS, and i mean PLAYS GOOD, GUITAR, BASS, PIANO, DRUMS and PERCUSSIONS.
Go tell me he his a BAD MUSICIAN?

I have never said he's a bad musician. I've said I don't like his music. Please learn the difference between personal opinion and fact... Speaking of which...

Do YOU play guitar, bass, piano, or percussion? If you don't, how is your statement that Kawai does all of these things excellently anything other than your personal opinion? The (usual) difference is that you are passing off your opinion as quasi-fact and challenging anybody who disagrees, whereas I am stating my personal opinion as personal opinion and asking respectfully to hear what other people have to say.

(Note: I am not suggesting that you're not entitled an opinion unless you compose and play musical instruments. What I'm saying is that, unless you have technical knowledge and experience to back up those statements, they will only ever be personal opinions: The exact kind of personal opinions that you seem to be denying me. When I say I dislike Kawai, I do not say Kawai is shit. I say I think he is shit and state my reasons for doing so. So far, you have said that you like him because he is great and he plays a lot of musical instruments, and anybody who doesn't is somehow mentally deficient. Difference, please?)

Lawrence's (stunningly detailed - I am gobsmacked and humbled) response to my scatterbrained comments are absolutely wonderful and are probably some of the most superb musical critiques I've ever read here or anywhere else. (And I read Gramophone, BBC Music Magazine, Classic FM magazine, MusicWeb, and others.)

I disagree with some of what he says. I agree with some. With his arguments he has forced me to re-evaluate my own opinions; sometimes I have arrived at the same ones as before and othertimes I have completely changed them.

Not once has a cross word been said between us - the point is we're having a discussion. This subtlety obviously eludes you.

If you don't want to (or don't have the ability to) participate in a meaningful way, may I suggest with the utmost respect that you don't participate at all, for the benefit of the other people who find the ongoing discussion educational, interesting, and insightful?

LAWRENCE: If you'll entertain me, I'll give your wonderful post the full attention it deserves on my return home.

Best, folks & happy Easter
D

I disagree with some of what he says. I agree with some.

LAWRENCE: If you'll entertain me, I'll give your wonderful post the full attention it deserves on my return home.
What do you MEAN YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME!!!?! DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE DEALING WITH?!!!

Take your time, sport. I got exams this week and next, so it's going to be awhile.

dannyfrench, have you ever heard of that people must START conflict and then get friends?
I admit its our case...or mine.
i dont have much time right now to answer, but i read some parts that i agree with you very much.
I do like a lot American Soundtracks, i just pity that in my country, the real MUSICIANS (the movie soundtrack composers) are very UNKNOWN, because here what makes a soundtrack is a lot of VOCAL SONGS. it is difficult to get someone who REALLY like symphonic stuff. :/

i'll answer to you later :)

Hmm . . . this brings up an interesting point in general on the subject of the "quality" of music and how themes stay stuck in your head.

I am not a big fan of Kenji Kawai. I find his music extremely repetitive and as someone who prefers longer tracks overall I find that many of his songs end too soon before they play out all of their potential ideas.

However, his Moribito and Gundam 00 themes are stuck in my head. I can recall "Karu!" from Moribito immediately. The way Kawai drums the Celestial Being theme into your head on the 1st Gundam 00 OST makes it practically impossible to forget. On the other hand, the (IMO) more magnificent SEED OSTs I find difficult to remember and I cannot recall any themes other than 3 OPs and the 1st ED (which are pop songs so they don't really count) along with the tune that played during the next episode preview.

I like the layers Satoshi put into SEED but the way he did it makes it difficult to recall most of his music. It doesn't stand out. It makes good BGM but it doesn't stand out on its own quite as much. Kawai's style is more straightforward and simpler to digest, so you remember it easier.

Then again, I may be saying a bunch of crap. My favorite composers (Hans Zimmer, John Powell, Yoko Kanno, Yuki Kajiura, and Taku Iwasaki) like blending electronics and classical music together, which brings a all-together different argument to the table.

Well dannyfrench, like i said on the PM i send, I am sorry, and hope you understand what I write on the PM.

1� I use caps lock not to YELL at but I use it as UNDERLINE. :)

2� About that part that nobody composes with an orchestra, and it composes for an orchestra i did not get it. :/?

3� I do listen a lot of American soundtracks. I do love to hear symphonic compositions since I was a kid, and I still love it :)

Now to main subject:

I do like Kenji Kawai very much, I see myself in future in HIM. I understand why most people may not see or understand his compositions. He is more of HORROR composing. It's not by chance that he his in a lot of Horror/terror movies. Unless someone sees the interesting on that style, it's easy to see why he is not so favorite to some.
If you don't like horror movies soundtrack that makes you feel a wierd chill on your spinal bone, you won't like Kenji Kawai. (I'm not saying that you will not like him because of that, i'm assuming and examplifying only :) )
I've hearing Kenji Kawai since childhood, and the more I hear, the more I will always say, Blue Seed Soundtrack it's his best soundtrack ever.
I agree with Lawrence_Bastard when says that sometimes he has that lack of creativity. I agree that in some songs they look like are similar or equal to others. I will never forget when I saw the movie DARK WATER (original japanese) and heard the theme of the movie it was one of my favorite songs of blue seed, with the diference that the theme has 2 more pianos.
And acording with the lack of creativity that can sound very repetitive.

"Predictable, flat, claustrophobic, concise, distinctive, black and white, interchangeable, bland, repetitive, horrific "
Some of this adjectives can be pointed to his horror style.
Every music composer has his own style, which i agree. It would be even more repetitive if we had everyone with the same style, an then there would not be a musical evolution in world wide thinking.
I think you said that a composer that puts a guitar or another thing like electronic it makes him low (not sure of how you really said it :/)
I don't agree with you that. Because I think that is good thing, it's the composer envolving with his works. A composer who just keeps on composing with the same style or that .....
not...wait.
a composer with always the same style it's not bad, not bad at all really.
what I mean is...a composer that uses other instruments mixing it with an orchestra, it show's theire versatility on it. Taku Iwasaki it is versatile. Understand what I mean? :)
This is what I think of that mixing other stuff with an orchestra.

And, yes... I am a musician. But I don't need to be a musician to know that Kenji Kawai is a good "player". A person that uses the instruments to it's limits, or that REALLY know theire instruments. They are GOOD.
Double-bass, for example, everyone thinks of him just to jazz/blues and that is used to do that "BUM BUM BOM BOM BUM" thing. Some composers PUSH that instrument to what it is really capable of. And the result is impressive 0_0
I play acustic guitar, electric guitar, keyboards and drums.
these are not my favorite instruments, not talking about keyboard. My favorite is keayboards and classical chords (double-bass, violin, cello and that family). Of course i don't have an orchestra, I would love to compose music and having an orchestra playing it. I compose music in variety. I know I'm just an amateur on the business, but I don't really want to start a business. I love music and I just want make music. Always passing with every music style. That is my objective :)

and....
FINALLY! SOMEONE THAT REALLY SEES KAORU WADA! :D XDXDXD
I must say that the ORIGINAl soundtrack he ever made it was on GUNMM (battle angel alita) and it still is the best of him. he was very original with this soundtrack... I'm completely agreed with you , he his too much Over-rated. I have soundtracks of him, and some I wanted and did not knew it was him..... like i say...he recicles form recicled his recicled recicled works, again and again. I watch SAMURAI 7, i knew he was the music composer, but on the last episodes I completely lost my moral on continuing watching the series, beaucase I heard that thing i call "theme of hope" which is on 3x3 eyes, silent mobius, kishin heidan, ninja scroll...and...all soundtrack he makes.
Yuki Kajiura, I liked in the beggining, but now, she his too repetitive, but sometimes I think she fall on the middle of a street and knocking herself out when she hits her head on the ground, because when that happens she can make really good soundtracks. She's now starting to look like a composer very j-pop performer. She has high standards and low standards. it depends if she it's the ground. XDXDXD

Joe Hisaishi even without the synthesizer he can still make particular compositions..tunes, that keeps on our hears for long times. I miss his synthesizer works, but i do not miss his Symphonic Suites. I love all of them. They are so ZEN for me :D

*** LONGEST POST IN HISTORY ***


Let's establish some rules for what music should be. I consider the golden rule of all music to be that it has to be "good," and that means whatever it means to each person in whichever context they choose.

I disagree! ;)

Actually, I do agree with that point, although I think it missing a real-world observation; sometimes a man's personal taste can be for something bad, and sometimes his distaste can be for something good.

I can think of a dozen examples (please don't ask me to ennumerate them!) throughout history in which somebody heaps praise upon an idea / person / concept / work of art; one which is almost universally accepted as undeserving. I don't mean to denigrate the suffering of those concerned nor be disrespectful in anyway - but probably the biggest example of this I can think of at the moment is Nazi-ism. What they did was horrific; pretty much everybody is agreed upon that today. They were wrong. And yet, MILLIONS of people thought they were doing wonderful things and some people still do.

In short, suggesting that something isn't inherently good or bad - it's the perception of the observer that decides, is all well and good but a line must be drawn somewhere.


The only bad taste in music is the dishonest kind. I see this as liking a song for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the way the song sounds (i.e. FF music = awesome because it is by Nobuo Uematsu, DUHR).

Agreed, with the obvious restatement of the above. Examples of this... I don't want to use the term "fanboy love" but it does seem to be the best... are all over the place. With these single-minded individuals formulating their opinion upon completely irrelevant information, there can be no truthful discussion about art, or music, or anything.


This is an important point, because it may be possible that you cannot accept that others truly like Kawai's music for the "right" reasons, that it's just a popularity contest. I assure you, the fact that 00's music is credited to Kawai isn't enough for me to say it = awesome, DUHR.

You have reached through to a very core part of my personality here and I really must congratulate you on what you say because it's so true and so eloquent.

When somebody tells me they really love something I hate, I probably (unconsciously or not) attempt to justify it by telling myself that they're not judging it by the same criteria I do; in other words, they don't like it for the RIGHT reasons. The odd thing is, I don't think I know what the RIGHT reasons are, and in any case they're only right for me. Ironically I try to judge in an unbiased way but ultimately any human judgement will be biased and can be no other way.

One thing I will say: I see a trend - there is a close correlation between "what people like" and a style of music. Take as an example the current de-facto Hollywood action style. (IMO) it is artistically baren, utterly derivative, unoriginal, and plain bad music - and yet people are loving it. Why? What is their criteria of judgement? Are they wrong? Are they not understanding something? Or do they just desire different things? Iron Man really, REALLY did it for some people. I can't help but decide that these people aren't finding great things in the music (because there are none) - they are instead responding to what they find important: Loudness, a beat, simple non-challenging harmonies, and something that doesn't interfere with their enjoyment of the onscreen action.

So, they're liking the music not because it's great music, but because by their limited criteria, their limited need, and yes, their limited sophistication, it is doing the job.

Is that making sense?



Predictable. Before I start, I want to point out a possible contradiction in something you said. When talking about Kawai's music, you said it was predictable, which is bad. When talking about Ootani's music, you called it unfocused, which is bad. You don't like either trait, but predictability and focused have some similarity to them. I won't ask you to justify the difference to me; just think about what the two terms mean to you in terms of music as you read this.

You won't ask me, but I'll definitely try because I completely understand what you're getting at and I feel that it might help me clarify my position if I try to understand how I see the two things differently.

"Predictable" suggests a lack of inventiveness, or a lack of skill in manipulation of material. IE:

"One day a man went swimming in shark infested waters. A shark swam up and bit his legs off. OWW he screamed. Then the shark ate him. He died. The end."

You may be starting off with a good idea, but the way you execute it is by the numbers, no surprises, no detail; just lazy cliche.

"Unfocused" is a nicer word.

"One day a man went swimming. In shark infested w... did I mention it was a guy? No? Oh, wait... Yes, I did. Actually that's not important. Yeah. It was Tuesday. He went diving and found sharks. Did you know that the shark in Jaws was made of rubber? Spielberg made some great movies. Except Indy 4. That was awful. Fucking aliens? Do me a favour. Anyway - this woman who went kayaking in piranah infested waters..."


There's no doubt that Kawai's music has an obvious destination (once you get far enough into the song). It's a pattern that he's pretty much adapted to most of his work. Part A repeats a couple of times, part B switches things up a bit, part A comes back, and part C ends the song. On the other hand, predictability has some benefits.

Well, that's just an example of symphonic form. There's nothing wrong with that, not at all. Having form can help with focus. An idea leading to another idea, leading to a revisiting of the first and finally a summary of all your ideas thus far.


The volume doesn't fluctuate wildly. Have you ever tried listening to a symphony while riding the bus? Sometimes it starts out so quiet that I'm not even aware that it's playing. After I boost the volume, it explodes in trumpets, symbol crashes, and other bric-a-brac, leaving me quite deaf. At least with predictable music, there's some consistency in the pitch, tempo, and style.

Yes, I have, and yes, it hurts. I did it in my car and almost went off the road, having turned up the volume to absolute max to try to hear a tender violin solo and then receiving the full-on aural assault of Mahler's 8th - my fillings are still rattling.

However... This "advantage" of yours isn't necessarily a musical one. It's a musical compromise that allows the listener to expend less effort consuming the music.


Besides, every song is predictable once you've listened to it enough. Kawai's appeal is that knowing what's coming makes it more enjoyable 'cause you know you're gonna like it (well, not you ). Last on this, the fact that it's predictable means that there was a set plan in mind for the song's beginning, middle, and end; that's where "focused" comes in. The song "Strike" from OST 3 was leading up to a climactic finish that was usually heard in the show after Setsuna finished off some bastards.

I say something is predictable if I can experience for the first time, the first ten seconds and guess with a reasonable amount of accuracy what the next two minutes are going to be. Kawai gives you a melody (if you're lucky) and repeats it; again and again and again. The way he handles the repetions are predictable. The instrumentation is predictable. Even the melodies are predictable.


Simple. I've decided to group claustrophobic, concise, black and white, and interchangeable into one category. I assume simplistic means it's short, has few variations, few instruments, and is similar in nature to other songs he does. This is all true.

Take out claustrophobic; that doesn't belong there. I don't quite understand it; it's a feeling only Kawai gives me, and I don't think it's anything to do with the other points you made. There is just something about it that makes my brain complain.

And onwards...

Short I have no problem with. The media for which is is writing often demands it. IN the world of film and television (television even moreso) one doesn't often have the luxury to develop ideas into a symphonic poem of several minutes or more. You write your cue and move on to the next one. Sometimes it's ten seconds long, sometimes it's a minute, sometimes it's five. But however long a piece is, that's no excuse for it to be lacking invention. If it does, you either don't care enough about the medium to do it properly, or you're not a very good composer. Whichever the truth is, it doesn't place you in such fantastic stead as regards your job...

Example of simple music: Satie's Gymnopedies. Actually, they're not in the SLIGHTEST bit simple, but they appear to be. They're very memorable, emotionally concise, very focused, and yet they exist upon the most miniscule of concepts - a repeated rhythym and a melody more-or-less derived completely from the chord structure. In short, not a great deal to start with. But it becomes a hypnotic trip unparalleled by any other composer.

Simple music doesn't have to be simple.


You can settle on the excuse that he's doing music for anime, which typically requires short songs. Not much of an excuse, but there it is.

That excuse comes around a lot. And there is a lot of shit in anime. Well, there's a lot of shit anime. (Surely we can all agree on that.)

But there are true artists working there as well.

And even if they're all bad, you can still bemoan this fact. Comparing a turd to another turd is fair enough, but what if you compare it to a diamond?


However, the true benefit of simple music is staying power. To demonstrate, use the humming test (not the hummer test). Try humming one of the songs from Gundam Seed Destiny.

This is a bad example, because I've pretty much got every note of GSD inside my head; most of the cues I could even write down for you on manuscript paper, fully orchestrated. THAT is memorable. ;)


Such songs may sound great when you listen to them, but they're unlikely to be very memorable.

TRUE, very true. They're the McDonalds' cheeseburger cues. Throwaway crapola but you have to admit, if you're hungry they don't have go down well.


Admit it - you still remember the Celestial Being theme, even though you dislike it.

I also remember what it feels like to be hit in the bollocks with a cricket bat, and what it feels like to be electrocuted. Something can be memorable for many reasons.

I tend to remember things I hate with almost the same vigour that I remember things I love. Maybe this says something about my personality that I'm not quite ready to admit to myself!

As far as the Celestial Being theme... I remember it because:

a) After sitting through that score once, you've pretty much got no choice because it's repeated over and over again across the entire first soundtrack and to a lesser extent in the other albums. I "learned" it the same way my fiancee learned German; by hearing the SAME BORING CRAP again and again and again until it's burned so deeply into your brain that it just won't go away even if you really want it to.

b) I remember thinking "THIS is the main theme?!" and singing it loudly and sarcastically to anybody who would listen - including my long suffering fiancee, who knows it too thanks to me stomping around for weeks going "DA, DA DA, DA DA DA DAAAA DA DAH, what a piece of crap - he just plays that boring thing over and over again! Listen *walks over to piano and thumps it out a thousand times* It's just only three notes! Jesus!"


The problem is that complex songs have a danger of sounding less like music and more like noise. If you can't even identify the tune, what are you really listening to?

Also true, but if you're talking about THAT kind of complex, it doesn't really appeal to me either. There's nothing worse than "look at me and how many notes I can write down" music that tires out the poor bastards playing it, tires out the poor bastards listening to it, but ultimately is a piece of shit. There's a lot of it around. (A high proportion of late 20th century classical music for instance.)


Kawai avoids this problem with an identifiable tune and a shorter average length. Even if the whole song isn't good, the length of the good part in relation to the rest can justify keeping it.

Can I just re-interpret your sentence a little?

"Kawai doesn't write longer, more complex music because it's a lot of effort / hard. It requires less skill / effort to do something shorter and based around a fragment of melody."

So, this is my problem with Kawai. If the guy writing the music can't handle the heat, then what in the hell am I listening to it for? We come back to "can't be bothered / not good enough" - pick one, or possibly both?


Let's talk a bit about formulas. They don't just apply to individual songs. Sometimes an entire OST corresponds to some formula. Remember when you said that Gundam demands a greater symphonic edge? Let me ask you something: why?

I guess because it has become the cliche... But it's a good cliche.

First of all, let me make one thing completely clear. If somebody wrote a Gundam score and performed it on comb and paper, or solo piccolo, or a Speak'n'Spell, and it were GOOD MUSIC, I would praise it with just as much vigour as I do a conventional symphonic score. Probably moreso, because I would be in awe of the composer's ability to achieve his objective with such a limited resource. There is always the tempation, if you have a big orchestra, to just pile on the noise and the percussion and let that do the work, instead of letting the quality of your writing do the work.

Symphonic music - and I mean WELL WRITTEN symphonic music, with a purpose - not your generic "huge-orchestra-lotsa-percussion-sod-all-artistry" cookie cutter nonsense you get today - has proven itself time and time again. It worked for Wagner. It worked in the 1930s. It worked in the 1950s. It worked again in the 1970s and 1980s. It's sleeping a bit now, but if something is good, it will always come back.

I won't go into five million pshcyological reasons why a symphonic score is often the best choice. Suffice it to say, this topic has been done to death by musicologists and casual audiences alike, and I can add nothing of note to the endless analyses already undertaken.

Finally, when I say "symphonic" I suspect most people are thinking I mean "big orchestra" when actually I mean it in a more classical sense. I also realise that in the classical sense, it's not strictly the right word. But to me, symphonic implies structure, intelligent use of theme and melody, harmonic devices, etc; a musical technique. One borne of education, study, experience, and an intimate understanding of the way the human psyche reacts to musical stimulus.

All that stuff that happens under the surface; psychologically, subconciously, your brain processes it and your experience is enhanced.

Making a lot of racket, or indeed repeating a simple melody and a simple beat over and over again - however it may appear to support the visual superficially it is missing that extra level of humanity and personality.



Because it has been done in other Gundam series? Because giant robots are associated with symphonic music? Because it-is-Gundam-and-it-is-symphonic? None of those answers would convince me that that's the way it must be.

Indeed not. "Because that's the way it's done / that's the way we did it the last time" is never justification.


What is unique about that particular genre that it belongs in Gundam?

Nothing specifically related to Gundam - I believe in a broader sense, it BELONGS in film and television. It is just right.

And, if you want to pin it down to Gundam, I believe that consistently, by far the most successful Gundam scores (from a musical perspective) have been those written by an accomplished classically trained composer and performed by a symphony orchestra.


Gundam SD did not; Sahashi was just doing what he did before, only it was now corresponding to a slightly altered version of the old formula ("Gundam music" hadn't included the contribution by Seed before SD).

Sahashi was just being himself whilst at the same time expanding upon his previous ideas and his previous style.

Nobody said you have to invent a completely new language every time you write a story. It's the skill with which you manipulate the language that is important.


Once a genre is being applied for the sake of being applied, it's no longer a significant contribution. I bring this up to show that there is more than one way to be formulaic.

This is very true. I believe, however, in the case of Seed Destiny, it wasn't a case of being formulaic. It was a recognition that a) the style was successful in Seed, b) the composer was sufficiently skilled to develop that style without resorting to repetition or pastiche, and c) it was worth maintaining the musical continuity between the two closely connected series.

(Just as, though I dislike Kawai's 00 scores, I think it's entirely appropriate that he scored both seasons and the upcoming movie.)

Finally, I find that lately a genre is being NOT APPLIED for the sake of being NOT APPLIED which is even more formulaic. A good, solid genre with a proven track record and an unprecedented pedigree (symphonic) is being rejected... just because.


One last thing before I finish up this part of the discussion. Are you a VGM fan? It's obvious you like/love anime music, but I don't think I've heard you mention anything about VGM.

Some. I come here via the classical world firstly, and the Golden and Silver ages of Hollywood secondly. My brain is classically, symphonically conditioned, both as a result of education and simple of personal taste.

I enjoy VGM music sometimes; it entirely depends but I'm not entirely closed off to the genre.


I'd call it a safe bet to say that most people who come here are fans of both. In my case, I was a fan of VGM before I became a fan of anime music. VGM by it's very nature is quite repetitive; stage music (Megaman X) has to be continuous. Because of that, it's the norm for me to listen to music that loops once without gaps. Frankly I prefer it for songs under 2 minutes. Assuming that a lot of Kawai fans are VGM fans too, it should be easier for you to swallow why they don't have such a problem with repetition without much variation.

Fascinating, I never thought of that. It all depends on how you arrive at your interest. Game music fans inevitably come to the music through the game; and so are conditioned for repetitious, looped music.

You can fit a lot into two minutes. Example - Yoshihisa Hirano. I think this guy is nothing short of a genius. Even his one minute cues satisfy me. But granted, as an anime/film composer with a solid classical background, he writes with a symphonic discipline that appeals to me.


The second sentence isn't valid. You didn't like the CB theme at all, so the fact that it was repetitive doesn't even enter into it; you rejected that song long before it started repeating itself. Unless of course the fact that it was repetitive was the only reason you rejected it. Feel free to correct me.

The theme isn't repetitive. It is repeated ad nauseum but the theme isn't repetitive. It's very short and very concise. I don't like it because I find it boring. It's just a meandering figure around three or four notes. It says nothing to be other than "I'm a recognisable motif" and the only reason it's recognisable is because you get to hear it at least seventy five trillion times throughout the score. On its own it's not memorable.


Thanks to the condition I gave at the start on what music must be, you should be closer to understanding why Kawai isn't as bad as he seems. I have favourite parts to each song, and I don't always want to waste time getting to it. I'll reference one of Senju's songs: V Gundam Score II - 01 Awakening Souls. It's a beautiful song that starts out with a very somber flute and string arrangement. At 2:03, it changes to a soothing (yet still sad) arrangement, the first 30 seconds of which particularly move me. Although the first part has its worth, I'd really rather hear the latter part first. With Kawai, he gives me what I want right away and bombards me with it until I've had enough (and I still haven't). He doesn't beat a dead horse, he highlights the greatness.

This sounds like all climax and no foreplay; it's a precise example of why I particularly enjoy a well-thought out, symphonically constructed piece of music more than a "cut to the cool bits and beat me shitless with them until I wish I were dead" style piece like I find Kawai writes.

Awakening Souls is gorgeous, and part of the reason is that restraint... The first part prepares you for the second part, just as a starter prepares you for a main course, and a main meal prepares you for desert. We get a simple piano statement to begin with; it's not the theme just yet, it's some chords that suggest what might be coming. The melody transfers over to the flute at 0:34 and it begins to develop. Strings play a continuous chord that shifts in colour. It is beautiful and it builds up antipation. String orchestra take up the melody and gradually various woodwinds kick in thicken up the texture, and finally at 2:03 there is a climax of sorts; some of the tension is relieved, and that very same theme now sounds more reflective and warmer; the harmonies change colour and the whole thing finally comes together. When it's finished you feel as though you've been wined and dined, and you feel like you have entrusted your emotions with somebody who will influence them skillfully, slowly, passionately, and appropriately. The whole piece isn't necessarily the good bits, but without the preparation, the feeling of anticipation, they don't taste half as good. Without the first half of that piece, the more reflective arrangement you enjoy in the second half has no meaning; your mind has nothing to compare it to, and it doesn't have any particular opinion about that melody yet. THIS is that subconscious bit. That's what Kawai doesn't do for me.


That's it. The failings you mentioned can be seen as advantages when you consider the alternative. Also consider the flaws in the songs you tend to like, and you'll come to understand why Kawai is such a big hit. You agree with it, you'll just understand it.

I'm afraid that with every step, you've actually helped me make my point all the more convincingly. ;)

You're telling me Kawai is a big hit because of all the reasons that I believe make him a bad musician. From this, we must deduce that good musicianship and popularity are no longer proportional in this day and age... From Kawai we get constant orgasms, achieved as quickly as possible and according to a tried and tested formula. That's all right if you want a swift one off the wrist, but what about love? What about playful manipulation? Tenderness? Suspense? Time out to just go walking in the park together? Picnics? All that extra stuff that just enhances?


But you aren't really here to find out why people like Kawai. I know why you're here. You think he sucks, and you want us to know it.

Honestly, hand on heart, that's not true. I geniunely feel as though sometimes I am missing out on something. Yes, I think he sucks; and yes, I think you know that I think this by now... But that's not the reason I keep talking about it. If that's all I was bothered about I would just say "Kawai sucks, bye guys!" and meander off to another discussion. But I am ALWAYS ready to be educated, and honestly there's nothing I like more than having my thoughts and feelings challenged. Sometimes they get changed (and I end up liking something new) - sometimes they remain the same (I lose nothing) and sometimes they're just reinforced (I feel at ease because I no longer doubt myself) - in any case, there is only gain to be had.

I don't come here to convince you or anybody else that Kawai sucks. If you like the guy, then GREAT because that means you've got a damn sight more great music to listen to than I have... I can only make my statements and let you go away with them; perhaps I make you think differently. Perhaps I just make you more confident than ever in your own feelings. Who knows?

I think this is a lot of fun and I hope you (and everybody) do too; it's not often such a detailed discussion takes place (here or anywhere) and I think that many good words have been spoken here this night.


I used to hate Nobuo Uematsu because his music after FF7 was so awful to me, especially the battle themes, yet every forum topic about VGM I saw was all, "Nobuo is God! EEEEEEEEEE!"

Ironically, this rabid fanboyism put me off the guy for a long time. I enjoy some of his music; not all, and not even most. Some. He's no God. He's had his successes and his failures.


You didn't come here to offend anyone. You just want to be the voice that says, "No, Kawai's music isn't good, and here's why..." Personally, I appreciate it. The fact is, if you hadn't pointed out how repetitive Kawai is within tracks, I probably never would have noticed (that's how much I love the parts he repeats). You haven't changed my appreciation for his music overall. Nevertheless, now that I am aware of it, I'll hold future releases of his music under greater scrutiny than before. If I ever gave mediocre songs of his any slack (probably not), I won't now. So thanks.

Indeed not. Believe me, if I am wanting to cause offense, I can do it very well indeed and with considerably less time sitting in front of a computer screen at 3am with bleeding fingertips and aching eyeballs. ;)

Thank you for having the maturity - as a Kawai fan - to applaud somebody for making the case for the prosecution. As I say, I don't necessarily hope to change any opinions; I just like people to know mine because that might help them dig a little deeper for the truthes in their own. :)


(REGARDING GUNDAM SEED AND SEED DESTINY): I guess if you've got some time and you can watch it cheaply, you should. Just don't go out of your way. (EDIT: you'd also get a chance to hear the music you like in its intended context)

I've got both series complete sitting around in my "To Watch One Rainy Day" folder and have had for a couple of years now. I've never really found the time. I've got a couple of days off work still to go so I think I'll give a few episodes a try.


Still, if you don't mind going off on one more tangent, would you mind elaborating on what you like about Akira Senju's V Gundam scores? This is the first time that someone besides me has mentioned him.

Well, definitely see above... But I think they're really the antithesis to the expected genre. They're incredibly introspective, beautiful scores. Senju wrote a very personal score that is really speaking with his own voice, and he's scoring the characters and not the situations, moreso than any other Gundam composer. Senju isn't really an "action music" kind of guy - and so you don't get hammered to death with "here is exciting music to accompany robotic killers" music; you get real, living, breathing music that digs far, far deeper than what the superficial surface of Gundam would suggest.

From the shimmering, late romantic warmth of "Shakti", the rousing militaristic march "V Gundam" (with charming secondary romantic theme mid section and almost Elgarian nobility at the conclusion), the modernistic mystery and subsequent explosion of beautiful melody in "Pulsation", through to the honesty and warmth of "Fields Of Flowers" - well, I just love it all very dearly... (And I thank you heartily for your upload of all three scores some months ago!)

WOW - I AM TIRED.

Sorry, I must stop here.

Just a quick one to morrigan: Thank you! (And for your Personal Message) - I want to reply in detail to you personally but I just wanted to drop in here how much I appreciate what you said. Please take care. :)

GOOD NIGHT ladies and gentlemen!

Read your final line. :)
I'll have to read your BIG WRITING later! :-P

Well Danny, I read your whole response. I have to say, I just can't agree to the perception of music you hold, and that's probably because I'm not a professional musician by any means. You see music and hear it from a perspective that's beyond me. I can't say I'm envious. You can appreciate music on a deeper level and find it so much more meaningful than I, but you're limited to the songs that fit a (comparatively) narrow range of acceptability.

If my music collection can include songs that are ranged from 1-5 in terms of quality (5=high), then yours can only hold 5s, maybe 4s. I don't mean that literally; you probably do have songs that you "kinda" like. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's not better, it's not worse. As always, South Park shows us the way: "No one answer is ever the answer."

I can't convince you to see value in Kawai's music. I mean real value, not like the "value" I see in Motoi Sakuraba's work after Golden Sun, in that it has value only because it meets the definition of "good music" for some. You, on the other hand, have convinced me to be more careful when evaluating Kawai's work. If this is an argument (in a civil sense) to alter one participant's way of thinking however slightly, then you've won.

With that, the argument's over (unless you've got more to say about it). There's just one thing. Remember when I said, "You agree with it, you'll just understand it"? I meant to say "You WON'T agree with it, you'll just understand it." If that typo caused any confusion, whoops.

On a different note, since you like Senju's work, I'd recommend checking out B'T X (http://tenshi.ru/anime-ost/BtX/), if you haven't already. In terms of quality, it doesn't beat V Gundam. B'T X was a (retarded) kids' show, so a lot of the music is... I don't want to say immature, but it lacks sophistication. There are notable exceptions that put some of V Gundam's songs to shame. He brings back his orchestral style and mixes things up with some synthesizer music, not that they're combined. If you want individual recommendations of what *I* consider good, you'll get 'em. If you already know all about B'T X, then forget this. Poor Senju... To think he'd produce great music for two very crap animes.

Another obscure Senju OST would be Walk�re Story For Orchestra. It's apparently an orchestral arrangement of a video game, of which I know nothing. Truthfully, I don't even know if it's from a game, but tracklist info for it is available on VGM OST catalogue sites (Game Music Revolution, etc.). Composed by Hiroyuki Kawada, performed by the Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra, and arranged by you-know-who. The songs average 6-10 minutes in length. I don't find them great, but I'll tell you something interesting. I kept tracks 1, 2, 3, and 5; every time I listen to them, I hear a cut-and-paste copy from V Gundam Score I - 13 Field of Flowers in one of the songs. The problem is I can never tell which! It never fails; I listen to the Walkure Story song on my mp3 player, I hear the cloned part, I look for it again on my PC, and I just can't find it. It's not very long - 30 seconds on a 6-9 minute song. If you haven't checked the album out, you might want to just to hunt for that part. Another thing to consider is that V Gundam was being produced in 1993, the same year that Walkure Story was released, so who copied who? Unfortunately I don't know where you'd find a download link for it. I could upload the songs I have, but the last time I tried uploading something, my computer had some BS error. A search of the forums could probably get something.

This is so far off topic, I'm livin' on the edge.

Well Danny, I read your whole response. I have to say, I just can't agree to the perception of music you hold, and that's probably because I'm not a professional musician by any means. You see music and hear it from a perspective that's beyond me. I can't say I'm envious. You can appreciate music on a deeper level and find it so much more meaningful than I, but you're limited to the songs that fit a (comparatively) narrow range of acceptability.

And there we are back at my original theory; people need different things in music. I don't see my tastes as influenced by a musical background; I got into music and then became a musician, not the other way around. I just have the sort of mind that finds that kind of thing very important. It's not an intellectual thing (otherwise I'd like squeaky gate modern classical music, which I don't) - purely an emotional one. But whatever, I agree with every word you wrote.

It's odd though - I've now been full circle with this. I started off wondering why you all love Kawai; second guessing myself and thinking I must be missing something. Now, I discover that it is because you are missing something; but that's not in the slightest bit influential to the way you enjoy music, and means you can enjoy a great deal more than I. Therefore, from your perspective, I'm the one missing out! Both are valid. Stalemate.


If my music collection can include songs that are ranged from 1-5 in terms of quality (5=high), then yours can only hold 5s, maybe 4s. I don't mean that literally; you probably do have songs that you "kinda" like. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's not better, it's not worse. As always, South Park shows us the way: "No one answer is ever the answer."

The funny thing is, I like some real crap too. Some things tend to phase in and out of my "I like this" radar it's hard for me to know even what I like at any one time.

And all this said, Kawai's Avalon is still one of my most treasured scores; I love it, every moment of it. That makes no sense at all.


I can't convince you to see value in Kawai's music. I mean real value, not like the "value" I see in Motoi Sakuraba's work after Golden Sun, in that it has value only because it meets the definition of "good music" for some. You, on the other hand, have convinced me to be more careful when evaluating Kawai's work. If this is an argument (in a civil sense) to alter one participant's way of thinking however slightly, then you've won.

My intention was never to win this argument or get one up on you by forcing you to shift your perception. I've contributed anything positive at all, then my mission is accomplished.


With that, the argument's over (unless you've got more to say about it). There's just one thing. Remember when I said, "You agree with it, you'll just understand it"? I meant to say "You WON'T agree with it, you'll just understand it." If that typo caused any confusion, whoops.

That's what I figured, and you're absolutely right. Well, nearly. ;)

I wouldn't say I don't agree. I agree with the logic behind your perspectives; I don't understand them but ultimately that doesn't matter because they're yours, not mine. I suspect I'm making this more complicated than necessary. ;)


On a different note, since you like Senju's work, I'd recommend checking out B'T X,

Indeed! I'm afraid I'm already familiar with it, and I do very much enjoy it. To me, it's the good kind of simple; sometimes sophistication and beauty just don't sit well together. Sometimes you just want to stop talking about precipitation, different breeds of flower, plant lifecycles, and just say "Wow, this garden is really beautiful!"

The only thing that irks me is that "Fukkatsu" is mostly a cut-and-paste of "V-Gundam" - though there's certainly enough freshness in there that it doesn't affect my pleasure; I just noticed it. :)


I kept tracks 1, 2, 3, and 5; every time I listen to them, I hear a cut-and-paste copy from V Gundam Score I - 13 Field of Flowers in one of the songs. The problem is I can never tell which! It never fails; I listen to the Walkure Story song on my mp3 player, I hear the cloned part, I look for it again on my PC, and I just can't find it. It's not very long - 30 seconds on a 6-9 minute song. If you haven't checked the album out, you might want to just to hunt for that part. Another thing to consider is that V Gundam was being produced in 1993, the same year that Walkure Story was released, so who copied who?

I'm afraid I have that too. ;)

Well, the first couple of minutes of track 2 (Act 1) are very similar to Field Of Flowers; although I was willing to put this down to the "Senju style" - I do wonder how much of this album is actually him, though. I'm not familiar with the other gentleman's work, but to me Walkure Story sounds 100% Akira Senju. It's far, far more than a straightforward orchestration of some game music, that's for sure. It's lovely to hear him in his "symphony" mode, not his "anime score" mode for a change. I highly recommend his Piano Concerto, and his brand new "Tale Of Genji" symphony released last year.

I'll have another listen this afternoon to see if I can spot the direct rip. :)


This is so far off topic, I'm livin' on the edge.

Have you ever cooked beefburgers? I got a recipe from my fiancee and I follow it to the letter, but every single time the burgers are dry and they fall apart. They taste great but they just crumble on the grill. It's incredibly annoying.