Wow, this is my first thread in here. Anyway here it goes: I like XII's story. I think that, besides X, it has one of the greatest stories in FF. I think it's because it's more mature. The characters seem more cultured and refined than say FFVIII's. Vaan, while I'll admit he was underdeveloped, at least wasn't an emo git like Squall. The story, on the whole makes sense, though the Occuria should've been expanded upon. I loved the idea of a tyrannical powerful race and humanity trying to break free. However, we get to meet them until almost the end of the game. This was a weak plot point (I never said the story was flawless). The theme of freedom is quite refreshing, and the plot doesn't concentrate on just saving the world. I don't even think it concentrated on saving the world. It was more political scheming. The story somehow has parallels to myth of Prometheus (yes, I'm aware that FFXII's is not as complex as said myth), however the general theme is there. There's a tyrannical race of gods and someone tries to free it. However, here comes the most interesting part of FFXII's plot: the person (Vayne) trying to free humanity is using force. He's just as bad or worse than the Occuria. What good is getting free of a tyrant if he's gonna be replaced with another, who is even one of our own? Vayne is Maquiavelian in his methods: the end justifies the means. Well that's the interpretation I have of the themes of the plot. That's why I think it's good. Now, this is a game we're talking about, isn't it? Well let me say that even though I enjoyed the gameplay, the massive amounts of grinding could hamper the advance of the plot. Gameplay and story were not so seemlessly integrated.
Characters are also part of the plot, too. The most poignant scene in the whole game I found out was on top of Pharos, when Gabranth beckons both Ashe and Vaan, mocking their losses in the war. At first they're determined to strike but then they stop, and with a cool rational head decide not to use the nethicite and destroy it. This shows that this characters have balls, lol. To forgive Gabranth takes a lot of courage from them both. Balthier's actions at the ending FMV shows that beneath his conceited demeanor, he actually cares about those around him. The characters weren't stereotypes. Although I think many will agree with me that they could have been developed more, especially Vaan and Penelo.

So, well there it is. Why I think FFXII's plot is good (not perfect but good by video game standards). *hopes people don't go tl; dr*

Funny you should say that, I'm actually replaying XII for the third time and starting to like it more.

I would have liked a bit more dialogue in general, but I certainly agree about the characters being better than those in VIII. Except Penelo, who doesn't actually have enough lines to even convey a vague personality.

I like it, but there will invariably be others who don't, because it doesn't have lines and lines of small talk. Not that small talk is a bad thing per se, but it is definitely optional for me.

Anyway, no you are not alone. Most of our rumble regulars like the story.

It's alright.. I guess.

I didn't really like the story until about the middle of the game. I did find it rather interesting, but I probably would've liked it more than I did if they had chosen to expand some parts of the game. Overall, it was a very good story, it just took a while to get into it.

The only cut scene that gave me a pleasent surprise was when balthier said he was a judge and that dr cid was his dad.

I thought the plot and pacing of the plot were fine theoretically; it just needed more character interaction. If they had used a system like in Knights of the Old Republic where your characters talk to each other every so often based on who's in your party or comment on the situation it would have been awesome. As it is, I tend to agree with the majority opinion that at least a few of the characters are underdeveloped, which in turn has a negative effect on the pacing during the middle of the game.

I guess it depends on the person as to whether or not the pace is fine. I found the pace rather slow in the beginning, but it did pick up after a while. I agree, more character interaction would have definately been a plus.

In retrospect, it's kind of dumb the way they spend a lot of time developing two characters that will eventually just become dead weight half way through the game. Of course, when I first played through the game I didn't know that.

Well, being (mostly) directed by Matsuno...ofcourse I love FFXII's story.

Though the story is not as good or compelling like Matsuno's FF Tactics and Vagrant Story, it still stands above the other cliche/corny final fantasy games in the series (mainly VII-X). FFVI still remains as sakaguchi/uematsu's best work for me.

The story of XII was weak. Perhaps the weakest of any Final Fantasy, even X-2. That's right I said it.

Final Fantasy V story was even better then XII's and that was just the generic save the world from the evil overlord plot.

The fact that the characters look too plain and nothing special didn't help the matter. It was hard for me to really care for them. Bathier was the only decent character and that's not really saying much when you compare him to Edge, Kain, Auron and the like.

The main villian was a guy you sometimes heard about, but hardly see, almost to the point, that I was wondering why I had to stop this guy from controlling all the Nefecite. Sure he was ambitious, but for all we know, he could of had a good just reason.

Ashe was one of the worse Female leads in the series. First of all, because she wasn't the main character when she should have been. Add on her plain and bland look and personality, and you have a princess Garnet Alexandros the XIII would turn her nose up at.

The gameplay, like with FFV, is what saved it for me. If not for that, I would of stop playing after the first 20 hours.

Vaan? WORST MALE LEAD IN ANY GAME! PERIOD! And I thought Tidus sucked.

Too bad, the games story had so much potential.

Final Fantasy XII's storyline lacked something. Something that I am not sure I know right now. I just know it lacks a certain something that I feel should be there. I am not going to lie, Final Fantasy XII's storyline kept me into it the whole time. I think one of my biggest problems with the storyline was the character development of Vaan and Penelo. Vaan is supposed to be the main character in the story, and he has nearly no place IN the story. And Penelo, seriously, we could do without her until Revanent Wings. If there had to be a main character, I would have to say it would be Ashe.

The gameplay, like with FFV, is what saved it for me. If not for that, I would of stop playing after the first 20 hours.



I like you for this comment.

I believe XII is the best FF to date.

I only played it because of Basch. Ugh, yes, I know, that sounds totally stupid.
At the beginning I thought that it was quite nice, although I didn't like how it started. (Marriage at the beginning?! And one of them dies shortly after? I thought they were kidding me <<")
Well, I will be killed for that, but... Balthier would have been a reason for me to stop that game. If there weren't Basch. He was an interesting character, although you don't know anything about him.

That is what bothered many people who dislike the game: there were so many characters which were... just there. Oo" Even when something special happened (as said before: when Balthier said he was a judge once), it wasn't interesting at all. Of course this twist was good, but how Ashe and Balthier stood there, just talking, without any flashbacks or something... that was boring, seriously.

I also hate the fact that Balthier proclaims himself as the hero of the game. I dislike this guy. Really. Vaan would've been better, but he was also in the background. Sometimes I really wondered why HE was the protagonist of the game. And not Balthier.
I mean: What do we find out about Vaan? Nothing, except for his brother Reks. And even that was... argh~ Just argh!

And another thing I disliked (TILL THE END!): Where were the dramatic scenes? Basch and Vossler, after Vossler was defeated. Drama? No, they just talked.. How about more music? What about better lines?!
Basch and Gabranth at the end just took me in their magic because of "Kiss Me Good-Bye". By the way, that was the only reason why I liked the end.

I see I have namend many reasons against playing the game, but I must also admit that I liked the political story. It was interesting to see what happened next.

Oh and I liked the voices. ^^ They fit mostly. (More than in X... for example Seymour... *brrr*)


In retrospect, it's kind of dumb the way they spend a lot of time developing two characters that will eventually just become dead weight half way through the game. Of course, when I first played through the game I didn't know that.

Couldn't have said it better...

Honestly, When it looked like Basch betrayed Reks and the other soldiers for Vayne, I thought I was going to get another interesting Final Fantasy Tactics type of story. But when Basch said "Oh NO! That wasn't me! That was my Brother!" I thought they dropped the ball and never recovered it from there.

Honestly, When it looked like Basch betrayed Reks and the other soldiers for Vayne, I thought I was going to get another interesting Final Fantasy Tactics type of story. But when Basch said "Oh NO! That wasn't me! That was my Brother!" I thought they dropped the ball and never recovered it from there.

I haven't played FF Tactics but from what you say I bet it's a betrayal story. While it's a neat concept I don't think it's always necessary. Basch was in sort of like a mentor role (he's the oldest of the group). Maybe Balthier could've filled this role, but Basch fits it better. Plus his personal conflict with his brother was compelling enough. Although I must say this is yet another thing that could've been expanded upon. How Basch's and Noah's (Gabranth) relationship got so sour and why Noah joins the Empire as Judge Magister.

Honestly, When it looked like Basch betrayed Reks and the other soldiers for Vayne, I thought I was going to get another interesting Final Fantasy Tactics type of story. But when Basch said "Oh NO! That wasn't me! That was my Brother!" I thought they dropped the ball and never recovered it from there.

Why? That's an allround excuse: "It wasn't me! It was my evil twin brother!" *sarcasm*
It would've been more interesting if there were other reason. And Basch said it too early. You played for about 4 hours (I suppose...) or a bit more and then you already know why something happened at the beginning. That was really strange. It was also strange that everyone believed him... I mean, I wouldn't trust someone telling me he had an evil twin brother killing people I love. Oo Ashe hit him once and then seemed to forget that. If I remember that correctly, nobody knew till Gabranth told them the truth when they fought against Cid at the end.

I loved the game, though I did think the story was for me, a bit bland because it seemed like it had been done before. many times before. but the story even though bland was nice in a way and not very confusing except of the occuria O_o honestly by the end of the game I still didn't know why there were occuria.

I think the main focus of this game was the all new unique battle system :D.

I did like it, FF12 story did fix the ONE thing I disliked about FFT's story. In FFT, they always threw to you the thought of who had the correct point of view, I felt like they kept telling me: "Ramza is right, Delita is wrong". Althought FF12 had some ruthless villains, I think the story was more neutral and gave them more of a chance to defend their point of view.

the plot doesn't concentrate on just saving the world. I don't even think it concentrated on saving the world. It was more political scheming.

that was one of the problems with the plot for me. the plot lacked "epicness." it wasn't big. i personally love when the entire world is thrown in peril and everyone, including the player, can feel it. with 12, i felt apathetic. i literally sat there and thought, "so what?" it felt to me that this was just one little problem with the few countries involved and there was a huge world beyond the borders of those nations that would keep on going and keep on turning after the conflict was resolved, for better or worse.


I did like it, FF12 story did fix the ONE thing I disliked about FFT's story. In FFT, they always threw to you the thought of who had the correct point of view, I felt like they kept telling me: "Ramza is right, Delita is wrong". Althought FF12 had some ruthless villains, I think the story was more neutral and gave them more of a chance to defend their point of view.

but because of that same aspect, it felt dry. you had no clear sense of who your enemy was, and so you're left uninterested (at least i was). yes, i know that some people love when villains are villains with alternative reasons for doing what they do (i love those villains too), but they're is a correct way it can be handled. with 12, i felt that even its own villain was bored and didn't really know why he was doing what he was doing, that he was just going through the motions. it could have been developed better.

that was one of the problems with the plot for me. the plot lacked "epicness." it wasn't big. i personally love when the entire world is thrown in peril and everyone, including the player, can feel it. with 12, i felt apathetic. i literally sat there and thought, "so what?" it felt to me that this was just one little problem with the few countries involved and there was a huge world beyond the borders of those nations that would keep on going and keep on turning after the conflict was resolved, for better or worse.

The thing is, there's only so many 'epic' type FFs you can play before it gets boring. Every FF from at least VI onwards, (I haven't played the earlier ones) with the exception of XI, which I am not about to pay �15 a month to enjoy/endure, has been a huge save the world epic. XII, with its more low-key, localised political plot at least brings something vaguely original to the table in that regard, and even if it wasn't massive save-the-world stuff, the game had its cliffhanger moments. Would Ashe use the power of the Dawn Shard to gain vengeance against the Empire? Would Larsa manage to convince his brother of the common good? Would Balthier and Fran make it out of the Sky Fortress Bahamut in one piece? Would Vayne achieve his aim of gaining control of Ivalice for the humes? etc, etc.

XII...XII...this is the FF game that probably disappointed me the most. A completely missed opportunity.

Anyway, to reply to the OP, I liked FFXII's story...in itself. However, the development of said story was poor and arguably a virtual non-existence.

Too often were you subjected to mindless grinding for over an hour before you were "treated" to little over a minute of cutscene and story elaboration. And then, another hour of grinding through mobs to get to your next destination.

Too often were the game's plot devices on the verge of greatness but dive bombed into a feeling of triviality and emptiness at the pivotal moments. Why? Simply because there wasn't a solid enough plot foundation beforehand to make those moments FEEL pivotal. Ashe's decision about using the Dawn Shard held absolutely no emotion or interest to me because the characters and the plot itself hadn't been anywhere NEAR fleshed out enough prior to the event. A parallel would be watching an absolute stranger make a big decision - big whoop?!

Which leads to the characters. So plain, then so in-depth, then so plain. So empty, like cardboard cut outs of people; two-dimensional, hollow and heck, I'd even go as far as to say invisible in some cases. But at other times, full of purpose and emotion and reason. What was the defining factor which governed whether they were 2D or 3D? Whether something was actually HAPPENING in the story. The characters just fluctuated from pointless to purposeful, back to pointless, within hours of gameplay. Oh, well, except one particular character of course who always remained at point zero:

Who the hell is Penelo? Who is this person? What is she doing? Why is she in the group? What are her motivations? Does she have any direct relevance to the plot or is she just being a Vaan fan-girl? Totally see-through character, at times I even forgot she was in the game. To me she was nothing more than a character model. A pretty pair of thighs but that's about it.

(Exception to the above is Balthier. Totally ironic that in one of the games were character development was at an all-time low one of the best FF characters was born.)

The game just wreaked of being a test. A test to see if a new combat system could work within Final Fantasy. Fortunately I can say that in my eyes the test passed; I liked the battle system, but it seems the story's substance took a massive hit in turn. The plot and its development are the pillar to which all other parts of the games stand upon, so for that all important foundation to be lacklustre just brings the whole game tumbling down.

The game felt like a beautiful and graceful shell into which no life was breathed.

Just a disappointing waste of a potential masterpiece...could've easily been the best FF game ever made and one of, if not the best games created.

I agree on Penelo but I do think there are at least 4 or 5 truly worthwhile characters in the game. Larsa, Ashe, Balthier and Basch are all characters that would compare well with others in the series, even if they don't get the same quantity of lines as some of the others. I disagree that we don't know enough about the characters to be able to empathise with them. Ashe, for example, has several conflicting motives, such as her desire for revenge against the Empire, her desire to be independent, her relationships with Basch and Vossler, and Larsa; and her rational, calculating side and her duties as the effective Dalmascan leader. These motives made her an interesting character for me, and probably one of the more under-rated characters in the series.

The point about dungeon crawling and time between cutscenes is arguably valid. I don't consider it a problem personally and nor do plenty of others here who do like the game, but I have heard a lot of complaints about it. I don't think it's an issue unless you do too many hunts between towns or dungeons, or grind for LP a lot. I admit, FFXII's battle system can drag you away from the story a lot. But I didn't have any real issues with it, and I see it as more a matter of opinion rather than an actual flaw.

The problem I had with Ashe was that I knew about all this inner conflicts but I simply didn't care about them because I didn't feel any real connection to the character. I think perhaps the void that caused this was a lack of character interaction. There was some, of course, but there wasn't nearly enough. Because of that I saw a plot, I saw inner conflict, I saw thought processes but I didn't see a character or a personality to empathise with ON those conflicts.

Quote from Wikipedia: "The Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine found the game's cast "a tad mundane" compared to characters from previous installments. Moreover, they found both Vaan and Ashe uninteresting, making the story lack 'the emotional punch'"

This probably describes what I mean best.

Larsa was cool, I liked him as a character. However, you mentioned Vossler. Whilst I do agree he was a good character and quite fleshed out aswell they blood well

*SPOILERS*

killed him off a few hours into the game! So one of the few worthwhile characters in the game is actually gone within a matter of hours -.-

*SPOILERS*

Oh, I also forgot that I thought Gabranth was a good character aswell. It's refreshing to see a "baddie" with a full characterisation under his wings. Cool name too just a bit odd that they had different voice actors (what is it with games and assigning different voice actors to twins or clones?)

As for dungeon crawling, generally it's ok for me when the battle system is active and the exploration is through areas as awesomely detailed as those in FFXII. However, there's also a limit and in FFXII there was just TOO much when compared with the amount of story development and cutscenes. To be more clear what I mean, the proportions between dialogue/cutscene/plot and dungeon crawling were too heavily in favour of the latter. Certain places in particular destroyed me. Forgive me for not being able to remember the names, all I can do is describe the areas:

A) The part where you explore a structure going over the sea rather like a massive oil rig.

B) The exploration that comes just before AND after you find out

*SPOILERS*

Balthier was a judge

*SPOILERS*

C) Giruvegan - the entire trek there and through it was simply too long.

Having said that I completed the game fully. I beat Yiazmat and Omega (all be it I had to abuse Reverse against Yiazmat when he dipped below 20% - just ridiculous 10-hit combos doing over 30k damage in total) and grabbed Tournesol etc. so the content within the game was good enough, just a bit let down by the amount of story in it.

For interest purposes actually I think I'll try and find the Game Script on GameFAQs and compare the size of the text file to those from previous FFs - I get the feeling it'll be a hell of a lot smaller, and for me that was my main beef with the game - not enough chit-chat!

I have to give points to both Ceidwad and Aqueous. Ceidwad, I share your sentiment about Ashe being underrated. But I also feel Basch is an underrated character. His role in the story is quite fleshed out, his personality too. How he provided advice for the team, etc. Like I said before he was in sort of a mentor role. However, Aqueous is also right that some characters got robbed of any character development. Penelo, while she had great potential, had as much motive to join the party as any NPC in Rabanastre during the Archadian occupation. In fact, sometimes it seems to me that RW was made because the developers realized that these two characters were dead weight in the game they were supposed to star in. However, I started by liking Vaan at first but then it just felt like he was just tagging along. He only gets bonus points for his development at the beggining and at the end at Pharos. My reason to say that he was better than Squall is that he had a more likeable personality, even though it wasn't fleshed out. I prefer that to a mess of a character such as Squall and the rest of the gang in FFVIII. Squall and Rinoa were the only ones who had character development in FFVIII, but it was such horrid character development. The characters didn't come across as believable at all. I find XII's characters to be more believable. Squall was emo just because his "sister" left him. He's afraid of losing people. Why? He has a lot of other friends. The whole "I don't let people in because I'm afraid to get hurt" is just lame, at least with the background Squall's story came with. Ashe had a right to feel the way she did because she lost not only her kingdom, but her father and husband as well. Vaan lost his family but you didn't see him whine as pathetically as Squall. He made due even though he missed them. Squall practically needed to be slapped into sense, like when Irvine told him to rescue Rinoa. The scene at the end of Pharos shows that there are more layers to Vaan than meet the eye. They're just not explored. Sorry for the long post and the comparison to VIII, but for me that game is the example of everything characters and story should not be.

XII...XII...this is the FF game that probably disappointed me the most. A completely missed opportunity.

Anyway, to reply to the OP, I liked FFXII's story...in itself. However, the development of said story was poor and arguably a virtual non-existence.

Too often were you subjected to mindless grinding for over an hour before you were "treated" to little over a minute of cutscene and story elaboration. And then, another hour of grinding through mobs to get to your next destination.

Too often were the game's plot devices on the verge of greatness but dive bombed into a feeling of triviality and emptiness at the pivotal moments. Why? Simply because there wasn't a solid enough plot foundation beforehand to make those moments FEEL pivotal. Ashe's decision about using the Dawn Shard held absolutely no emotion or interest to me because the characters and the plot itself hadn't been anywhere NEAR fleshed out enough prior to the event. A parallel would be watching an absolute stranger make a big decision - big whoop?!

Which leads to the characters. So plain, then so in-depth, then so plain. So empty, like cardboard cut outs of people; two-dimensional, hollow and heck, I'd even go as far as to say invisible in some cases. But at other times, full of purpose and emotion and reason. What was the defining factor which governed whether they were 2D or 3D? Whether something was actually HAPPENING in the story. The characters just fluctuated from pointless to purposeful, back to pointless, within hours of gameplay. Oh, well, except one particular character of course who always remained at point zero:

Who the hell is Penelo? Who is this person? What is she doing? Why is she in the group? What are her motivations? Does she have any direct relevance to the plot or is she just being a Vaan fan-girl? Totally see-through character, at times I even forgot she was in the game. To me she was nothing more than a character model. A pretty pair of thighs but that's about it.

(Exception to the above is Balthier. Totally ironic that in one of the games were character development was at an all-time low one of the best FF characters was born.)

The game just wreaked of being a test. A test to see if a new combat system could work within Final Fantasy. Fortunately I can say that in my eyes the test passed; I liked the battle system, but it seems the story's substance took a massive hit in turn. The plot and its development are the pillar to which all other parts of the games stand upon, so for that all important foundation to be lacklustre just brings the whole game tumbling down.

The game felt like a beautiful and graceful shell into which no life was breathed.

Just a disappointing waste of a potential masterpiece...could've easily been the best FF game ever made and one of, if not the best games created.

This guy wins the thread. Completely true on all counts.

Lady Elven Archer, i'm guessing, and this is a HUGE stab in the dark, that you don't like Squall?

Some games are for the mind and some for the heart. I'll give a candy to the one who knows where FFXII's was aiming at.

The problem I had with Ashe was that I knew about all this inner conflicts but I simply didn't care about them because I didn't feel any real connection to the character. I think perhaps the void that caused this was a lack of character interaction. There was some, of course, but there wasn't nearly enough. Because of that I saw a plot, I saw inner conflict, I saw thought processes but I didn't see a character or a personality to empathise with ON those conflicts.

Quote from Wikipedia: "The Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine found the game's cast "a tad mundane" compared to characters from previous installments. Moreover, they found both Vaan and Ashe uninteresting, making the story lack 'the emotional punch'"

This probably describes what I mean best.


If either you or the Official US PlayStation Magazine did not like Ashe or the other characters, fine. My point was that it wasn't like watching an absolute stranger make a decision. We know enough about the characters to get a good grasp of their personalities, even if there is little small talk compared to previous FF games. I agree that more character interaction would have made the game better but the relative lack of it doesn't stop the characters from being interesting.

I agree with most of the said points.

However, I still believe that FFXII's overall story is definitely not "bad." On contrary I think it's great. As many others have pointed out....the character development is where its faults lie. But I honestly don't think a final fantasy game has to rely mainly on characters to tell a story; sure we can all connect to the characters of FFVII, FFVIII and FFX on a deeper level, that doesn't necessarily mean they're better since this is a completely different take on the FF series if you know Matsuno. His focus usually lies on the events that shape the characters that play in the story and not in the characters themselves.

The time that he does develop the story is by having 2 juxtaposed characters/foils highlight the game's themes or struggles. (Ramza and Delita in FFTactics; Ashley and Sydney in Vagrant Story) This is where FFXII is flawed in that some are vague. Balthier and Dr. Cid & Basch and Gabranth's foiling are noteworthy...but how about Ashe and Vayne? then Vaan and who!?? The presumed "main character" is weak and really is just tagging for the ride with the other more important characters...which is where the irony lies.

What I did like about the story and what I didn't find in other cliche'd FF's, is (in true Matsuno style) that the line between "Good" and "Evil" is blurred. That's what so intriguing and compelling about FFXII's story compared to other FF's where you clearly know who's the "truly evil" villain that's gonna destroy the world. Sure, many people could argue that Vayne is the villain, but isn't he just trying to suppress a rebellion from those who would dare to as a ruler should? Furthermore, isn't he trying to liberate the humes from the rule of the Occuria? Ofcourse he killed his brothers (*spoiler*and father *spoiler*) to attain the throne, and that's ambition. But the point is that Vayne isn't "truly evil" like previous FF villains and I could definitely relate a lot to him. The political aspect of FFXII is also one of the things I enjoyed about FFXII's story, where as previous Sakaguchi FF's aren't complex enough to dabble into the political side of storytelling that is Matsuno's.

Just my 2 cents in this whole matter, as I feel a lot of you are overlooking FFXII's noteworthy merits that was absent in the previous FF games story wise- the story is different and if you approach it with a traditional FF mentality, you will certainly not appreciate it as much as I have.

EDIT: Also, as a Matsuno fan...I have to mention the fact that he didn't direct the whole project as he fell ill and couldn't continue with it. He had to pass it to Kawazu (Saga series) instead halfway in the development. Definitely something to think about when judging FFXII's story- I believe it might not really have turn out as Matsuno's vision in the beginning. I'd suggest playing Vagrant Story too, as that game had the best story in any game I've ever played, and also holds true to what Matsuno and his team's truly capable of.

In regards to Vaan being a "weak main character" I think you have to look at it this way: He isn't the main character, just whose eyes you see the story and events from. Since he's just a poor thief who does errands for a shopkeep, he seems so insignificant.

If anything, I would call Balthier the main character.

What I did like about the story and what I didn't find in other cliche'd FF's, is (in true Matsuno style) that the line between "Good" and "Evil" is blurred. That's what so intriguing and compelling about FFXII's story compared to other FF's where you clearly know who's the "truly evil" villain that's gonna destroy the world. Sure, many people could argue that Vayne is the villain, but isn't he just trying to suppress a rebellion from those who would dare to as a ruler should? Furthermore, isn't he trying to liberate the humes from the rule of the Occuria? Ofcourse he killed his brothers (*spoiler*and father *spoiler*) to attain the throne, and that's ambition. But the point is that Vayne isn't "truly evil" like previous FF villains and I could definitely relate a lot to him. The political aspect of FFXII is also one of the things I enjoyed about FFXII's story, where as previous Sakaguchi FF's aren't complex enough to dabble into the political side of storytelling that is Matsuno's.

i don't know about you, but to me, killing several people just to attain power is pretty evil.

and correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't he just want to get rid of the Occuria so HE could rule over all?

The main male character was Balthier, and the Main female character was Ashe.

Vaan and Penelo was really worthless to the overall story, and the game might have been better without them.

In regards to Vaan being a "weak main character" I think you have to look at it this way: He isn't the main character, just whose eyes you see the story and events from. Since he's just a poor thief who does errands for a shopkeep, he seems so insignificant.

If anything, I would call Balthier the main character.

I agree with how Vaan acts as a lens for the more important characters in the story, great observation there. However, the way squeanix made it was that Vaan was in fact the "presumed" main character. I'm into graphic designing, and from the cover alone...Vaan is already made out to "seem" like the main character. That's where FFXII's fault lies, because he's not.


i don't know about you, but to me, killing several people just to attain power is pretty evil.

and correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't he just want to get rid of the Occuria so HE could rule over all?

Not completely true. He was a pawn of Venat, not the other way around. It was actually Venat who wanted to liberate humes from the Occuria and rule over all.

As regards for Vayne killing his brothers to attain the throne, I never said that wasn't evil. It highlighted the theme of ambition prevalent in Matsuno's work (Delita in FFTactics mainly). My point is that Vayne isn't "completely" evil like the other FF villains who just want to destroy the world.

As a matter of fact, none of the characters are completely good or evil- it's not a cutout black and white matter. If you watch the bonus dvd interviews, the creators themselves made it so that there are a lot of gray areas, the good and evil aspect is blurred, and no one was to be truly "good" or "evil"


The main male character was Balthier, and the Main female character was Ashe.

Vaan and Penelo was really worthless to the overall story, and the game might have been better without them.

It's arguable, yeah. But it's also arguable that Basch is equally emphasized as Balthier. Now that would make Ashe the true main character in the story. Ofcourse, it's a matter of opinion though...since most of the characters (except for Penelo) share about an equal degree of importance in the story.

Lady Elven Archer, i'm guessing, and this is a HUGE stab in the dark, that you don't like Squall?

Lol. I can see how I can come off as a Squall hater, but I'm really not. The only thing I'll say is this, he's the least effective main character from the games that I've played (FFVII, FFVIII, FFX, and FFXII). His character development is all over the place and is too sudden, and like I mentioned before Squall's reasons for being such an antisocial come off as weak. He just doesn't fit the bill to be a cool main FF character. Vaan might not be the best, but at least he knew when to shut his mouth. Vaan was barely involved in the story and didn't speak much, thus he was tolerable. Whatever little character development they gave him, even though it wasn't much, I liked enough, so in my book he isn't annoying.

Well, the relation to Reks is just about the only thing that made Vaan important.

Balthier is too much of a mentor-figure to call him the main character, with all his secrets and stuff.

So, vaan and penelo aren't good main characters. maybe thats why they decided to create a spinoff with kytes and some random girl. lol

Lol. I can see how I can come off as a Squall hater, but I'm really not. The only thing I'll say is this, he's the least effective main character from the games that I've played (FFVII, FFVIII, FFX, and FFXII). His character development is all over the place and is too sudden, and like I mentioned before Squall's reasons for being such an antisocial come off as weak. He just doesn't fit the bill to be a cool main FF character. Vaan might not be the best, but at least he knew when to shut his mouth. Vaan was barely involved in the story and didn't speak much, thus he was tolerable. Whatever little character development they gave him, even though it wasn't much, I liked enough, so in my book he isn't annoying.

I actually like how Squall developed as a character. This is, because I played it back when it was first released.

The antisocial character was still a bit new to me (FFVII did the same thing), but it was still original nonetheless...and that's what I liked about it. Nowadays when other rpgs try to do it, it comes off as really cliched. Furthermore, he developed much more than Cloud did and he shows it. Plus he's arguably the best designed FF character next to Balthier. ;)

Not a direct argument with your post here, just a clarification of one point and one reason for me not finding the characters interesting:


If either you or the Official US PlayStation Magazine did not like Ashe or the other characters, fine.

1. I like Ashe's character. I like Basch's character alot, I actually feel endearment towards him. I like Balthier, Noah, Larsa and Vossler. I think Fran is a little empty (her personality, not her development). Vaan is "ok", he starts off great but then his character just seems to trail off. Penelo...haha, well, you know that. Vayne is a bastard etc.

The problem isn't the characters themselves, just like the story, but that I don't feel any attachment to them due to the lack of character interaction. Perhaps a good synonym would be that I feel like I'm watching a play when I play FFXII - the characters FEEL like they're playing parts rather than BEING those characters. That's where the "hollow" feel I get from the game comes from.

The one exception is Basch because he feels such a genuine character.


I agree that more character interaction would have made the game better but the relative lack of it doesn't stop the characters from being interesting.

2. This is just where I think we have different "pulls" to a character - I NEED character interaction for those characters to be interesting, and lots of it. Liking a character and feeling emotionally attached to a character are two different things for me.

But that's fine, I just wanted to explain that, I don't expect to convert you ^^.


Lol. I can see how I can come off as a Squall hater, but I'm really not. The only thing I'll say is this, he's the least effective main character from the games that I've played (FFVII, FFVIII, FFX, and FFXII). His character development is all over the place and is too sudden, and like I mentioned before Squall's reasons for being such an antisocial come off as weak. He just doesn't fit the bill to be a cool main FF character. Vaan might not be the best, but at least he knew when to shut his mouth. Vaan was barely involved in the story and didn't speak much, thus he was tolerable. Whatever little character development they gave him, even though it wasn't much, I liked enough, so in my book he isn't annoying.

To be honest, I liked Squall but I definitely agree with your point about his change being too sudden - or perhaps, not too sudden, but too early. I think the problem is thus: Rinoa's incapacitation was meant to be the catalyst for his change - he became aware of his loss. However, he exhibited way too many signs of change before this, like in Trabia Garden for example (which leads on to another negative of FFVIII and the worst part of its plot but I won't go into that here).

If the events at the end of Disc 2 had been the SOLE precursis for his change then it would have been more believable and genuine.

Lol. I can see how I can come off as a Squall hater, but I'm really not. The only thing I'll say is this, he's the least effective main character from the games that I've played (FFVII, FFVIII, FFX, and FFXII). His character development is all over the place and is too sudden, and like I mentioned before Squall's reasons for being such an antisocial come off as weak. He just doesn't fit the bill to be a cool main FF character. Vaan might not be the best, but at least he knew when to shut his mouth. Vaan was barely involved in the story and didn't speak much, thus he was tolerable. Whatever little character development they gave him, even though it wasn't much, I liked enough, so in my book he isn't annoying.

To be honest, I liked Squall but I definitely agree with your point about his change being too sudden - or perhaps, not too sudden, but too early. I think the problem is thus: Rinoa's incapacitation was meant to be the catalyst for his change - he became aware of his loss. However, he exhibited way too many signs of change before this, like in Trabia Garden for example (which leads on to another negative of FFVIII and the worst part of its plot but I won't go into that here).

If the events at the end of Disc 2 had been the SOLE precursis for his change then it would have been more believable and genuine.

Edit: Crap, double post, sorry. Delete this one please.

1. I like Ashe's character. I like Basch's character alot, I actually feel endearment towards him. I like Balthier, Noah, Larsa and Vossler. I think Fran is a little empty (her personality, not her development). Vaan is "ok", he starts off great but then his character just seems to trail off. Penelo...haha, well, you know that. Vayne is a bastard etc.

The problem isn't the characters themselves, just like the story, but that I don't feel any attachment to them due to the lack of character interaction. Perhaps a good synonym would be that I feel like I'm watching a play when I play FFXII - the characters FEEL like they're playing parts rather than BEING those characters. That's where the "hollow" feel I get from the game comes from.

The one exception is Basch because he feels such a genuine character.

2. This is just where I think we have different "pulls" to a character - I NEED character interaction for those characters to be interesting, and lots of it. Liking a character and feeling emotionally attached to a character are two different things for me.

But that's fine, I just wanted to explain that, I don't expect to convert you ^^.

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with you disliking the game because of the lack of interaction, as long as we're agreed that this is an area where opinion can legitamately differ.

I also apologise if I came off as being arsey in tone, it was not my intention.

As for the interaction, I was personally able to get by with my imagination. That sounds stupid, but when you know the fundementals of a character's personality, it's very easy to think 'what would this character say in this circumstance' and take it from there. With maybe some of the less developed characters like Fran and Penelo this wasn't possible all the time, but it's only small talk anyway, so I don't consider it that big a deal.

It's no problem, I didn't take offence ^^. My need for dramatic interaction is probably because I'm such a massive movie fan.

Incidentally, I noticed one thing that had eluded me prior and might actually be the reason it feels like a play - the language.

I think the language of FFXII is great. It's intelligent, witty and meaningful but on occasion it sounds TOO good, if you know what I mean. I think, for me at least, this adds to the hollow feel. Some of the lines I can't imagine coming out of even the most intelligent person's mouth mid-conversation and therefore it gives off a "rehersed" feeling.

Playing through again now though I've given my characters every item in the game so I can trounce through the grinding. I'm enjoying the story more now that

A) The grinding doesn't take half as long and,

B) I've played it through once before so certain things I missed beforehand I now understand (Cid talking to himself, for example).

Having said that it's taken it's first toll on me (the grind). I ground to Bur-Omisace, then ground to Stillshrine, then ground THROUGH Stillshrine, fought Bergan and now I'm going to have to grind ALL THE WAY to Archadia - ouch. Oh well at least I one-shot everything xD.

I think the language fits aptly. You have to remember the setting and the characters' backgrounds. I have always thought the setting was similar to 18th and 19th century Europe with great technological advancements but still plenty of mythology and mysticism about the world. In those days, diplomacy and politics was somewhat different to what we have today, because politicians didn't need to rely on the people for election so there was no simplistic argument like say, in the House of Commons today, because politicians didn't need to simplify things. In fact, the more complex you could be, the better, as this would make you more likely to out-argue your diplomatic opponents.

Considering most of the main characters were either politicians themselves (Ashe, Basch, Larsa, Gabranth, Vayne, Cid, etc, etc.) or were born into political families, like Balthier, the level of wit and sophistication seems about right to me. These people would know how to talk their way out of a situation. (well, for the most part anyway, I often think Ashe struggles with this, but this just makes her a more interesting character to me)

I think the language fits aptly. You have to remember the setting and the characters' backgrounds. I have always thought the setting was similar to 18th and 19th century Europe with great technological advancements but still plenty of mythology and mysticism about the world. In those days, diplomacy and politics was somewhat different to what we have today, because politicians didn't need to rely on the people for election so there was no simplistic argument like say, in the House of Commons today, because politicians didn't need to simplify things. In fact, the more complex you could be, the better, as this would make you more likely to out-argue your diplomatic opponents.

Considering most of the main characters were either politicians themselves (Ashe, Basch, Larsa, Gabranth, Vayne, Cid, etc, etc.) or were born into political families, like Balthier, the level of wit and sophistication seems about right to me. These people would know how to talk their way out of a situation. (well, for the most part anyway, I often think Ashe struggles with this, but this just makes her a more interesting character to me)

It's a double-edged sword for me. I like the intellect eminent in the language but at the same time it makes me feel distanced somewhat.

Yeah I know the language reflects the time period, or perhaps simply reflects the world (FFT is much the same with its language and is of course set in the same world) and 99% of the time I don't mind it but I think in certain situations it makes me feel distanced. In situations where there's an argument or a speech of some kind (usually scenes between the party and members of Archadia) it's fine but when discussing amongst themselves sometimes it's not enough to the point.

I'm wrong if I said it was out of place with respect to the setting in the game. Rather, whether it is out of place or not it distances me from the characters just a little when they interact amongst themselves. An example of a nigh-monologue that I think is good in FFXII is when Vaan speaks to Asha in Jahara. It's heartfelt and most importantly: to the point.

Incidentally, this is probably obvious, but I'm intentionally nit-picking at the game. The reason why is because I'm trying to work out what it is about FFXII that distances me from the characters.

One point of interest I found on wikipedia actually was that Basch was originally meant to be the main character but they changed it to Vaan because they didn't want the game to be too similar to Vagrand Story in having its protagonist as a "strong man in his prime". Personally, I wish they had kept it as Basch. The protagonist has to have a strong and direct tie to the plot in my opinion and Basch had precisely that. Either Basch or Ashe, the latter of whom I have actually started playing as my "controllable" character in battles and already the game feels better. Quite ironic but I didn't realise just how important it was that I "played" the character who I felt was most central to the plot.

Ah well, just a bit of grinding and I'm soon in Archadia - one of my favourite parts of the game!

I find that the plot was rather weak in the beginning. You get introduced to pretty much all of your characters before you even get them. 3 of which, are involved, or at least were, with royalty and the other 3 are abandoned, or orphaned. Isn't this normally how all of the FF games go?

Other than that, i was mostly in it for the battling and the fact that it kept me occupied. I find, that I need a little bit more excitement when it comes to final fantasy games. If they're just taking the plot waaaay back from number one..or 3 i guess i can more or less work with, and jazzing it up a bit, i find i loose intrest fast. Alas, its not cool when the characters get what they want, ie; vaan and his airship. Glad that he looses thing in the DS version thought.

All in all, I played it til my sisters scrached the living daylights out of it, and i've yet to get it fixed. So I suppose I cannot complain a lot can i?

Balthier is too much of a mentor-figure to call him the main character, with all his secrets and stuff.

You're joking right? Almost every action revolves around him in some way, how is he NOT the main character?

You're joking right? Almost every action revolves around him in some way, how is he NOT the main character?

First of all, it's Ashe that every action seems to revolve around. As for Baltheir, he IS more of a mentor. He's the Sky Pirate than Vaan wants to be, he has that whole dark past with Cid and being a judge. There's almost always a character like that who's "seen it all" and is the brains of the group, and it usually isn't the main character. And, they also usually have a lot of things revolving around them as well. That's just his trait, nearly everywhere they go, someone seems to know him. Still, doesn't have to be the main character.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Balthier is "mentor" material but I wouldn't say he's the main character either. His main relevance to the plot is through another character (Cid) rather than being tied to it directly himself but he's definitely one of the character closest to being considered the protagonist.

My opinion is Ashe is the main character of FFXII, followed closely by Basch and Balthier. The central plot is always directly relevant to Ashe.

Yeah I know the language reflects the time period, or perhaps simply reflects the world (FFT is much the same with its language and is of course set in the same world) and 99% of the time I don't mind it but I think in certain situations it makes me feel distanced. In situations where there's an argument or a speech of some kind (usually scenes between the party and members of Archadia) it's fine but when discussing amongst themselves sometimes it's not enough to the point.

I would put this down to the characters not trusting each other, particularly early on. Ashe though is definitely more direct with other members of the party. However Vossler and Basch talk in 'politicianspeak' to each other, and there is obviously some wariness between the two, as we find out later during the scenes at the Leviathan. Similarly Ashe and Basch do not really trust Balthier early on, and Balthier pretty much doesn't trust anyone, which is not surprising given there's a great big bounty on his head.

Also, I would definitely say Ashe is the main character in so far as the main events of the plot all centre around her mission to restore her kingdom and end the conflict between Archadia and the rest of Ivalice. Balthier certainly has a lot to do with the plot and is probably the best developed character, but doesn't have the same kind of direct relevance to events for the most part, expect for the later parts of the game in which Cid is an important character.

Yeah I don't necessarily think it's a kink in the wheel just something that personally distanced me a little from their inter-party relations.

I just got past the part of the game I dislike the most though at least (Mosphorian Wastelands -> Phon Coast -> Tchtia Uplands -> Sochen Cave Palace, ooooouch).

Now on to Archadia. And yes, once again, having my controlled character the true protagonist of the game really helps the feel of the game. I'm now levelling Balthier (I used him my first playthrough but originally thought I might make a change) so that I can have a party of Basch, Balthier and Ashe to feel more entwined in the plot. I had Vaan originally in place of Balthier, and in my first playthrough Vaan, Basch and Balthier, but since his link to the plot is weak at best I think I'm going to pocket that particular character this go through. Go and throw sticks at a wall with Penelo!