Although I may be one of the FFVII fangirls as they come, but I found this interesting video on youtube stating why FFVII is not the greatest game ever made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkxR4p7P74Y

One of the best points he made which I strongly agree with is that when he said "Since when do graphics make the best game?"

Now FFVII fanboys and fangirls here, please don't go off on me for posting this and saying "Oh how can you claim to love FFVII when you're supporting this anti-FFVII video" blah blah blah.

How can you claim to love FFVII when you're supporting this anti-FFVII video?

You silly goose XD.

DOT WHY HAVE YOU NOT JOINED UP WITH MARVEL VS CAPCOM SHRINERS?!?!

yawn

He doesn't get very specific in his arguments; that video is basically a rant. Also, I don't find the "humor" in it to be particularly funny.

Now, I do definitely think FFVII is extremely overrated and that people who don't play older video games because of their grahics are lower on the evolutionary scale than okra, but this video just isn't very well constructed.

Very true Thieves. It is narrow-minded when gamers choose not to play older games because of their graphics. I had the same problem when she thought even the FFVII graphics were crappy she was all "I couldn't keep playing FFVII because the graphics hurt and weren't pretty enough. They're not revolutionary as FFX" :rolleyes:. I still enjoy most games that are 2-D graphics and even 8-bit :cool:. Well because that's what I started with. Hell, I'm always up for giving an Atari a try.

I think another reason people may choose not to play older games is because they're harder to come by.

I think that's a very legitimate reason, but very many people say they can't play older games because of the graphics. Really, SMB3? They are missing out on so much.

I think that's a very legitimate reason, but very many people say they can't play older games because of the graphics. Really, SMB3? They are missing out on so much.

I agree. Super Mario Bros 3 is awsome and I still love it to this day :cool:. I think I beat that game at least around 3-5 times. Also if they choose not to play FFIV or VI because of the so called bad graphics, they're seriously missing out big time.

I think that's a very legitimate reason, but very many people say they can't play older games because of the graphics. Really, SMB3? They are missing out on so much.

OMFG THIEVES WTF HAFF U BEEN?

FFVI FTW FUTHER-MUCKERS!

It's videos like this one that keep me decidedly neutral when it comes to FF7. Both extremes of the spectrum are equally ridiculous.

FFVI FTW FUTHER-MUCKERS!

True. Let's also not forget FFIV ;).

DOT YOU DID NOT COMMENT ON THE BACKBREAKING BACKSTORY I WROTE FOR YOU IN MVC SHRINERS :(

FFVI FTW FUTHER-MUCKERS!


True. Let's also not forget FFIV ;).

x2

DOT YOU DID NOT COMMENT ON THE BACKBREAKING BACKSTORY I WROTE FOR YOU IN MVC SHRINERS :(

Sorry 'bout that :(. *checks the thread out right away* ^^.

It's okay TR, I'm gonna re-add all of the stories once I have everyone's background stories completed. Plus, you should def get an Imeem account so u can join my all-exclusive MvC Shriners group (http://groups.imeem.com/1aKtQ8R2);)

guys how to i make a video and post it on website?

It's videos like this one that keep me decidedly neutral when it comes to FF7. Both extremes of the spectrum are equally ridiculous.

qft

That's just somebody ranting. Sure it's over-rated but it wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't good. I mean when have you ever heard someone say that E.T is the best game ever made.

That's just somebody ranting. Sure it's over-rated but it wouldn't be so popular if it wasn't good. I mean when have you ever heard someone say that E.T is the best game ever made.

Yesterday

His review is nothing more than BS by some guy who wants to fit in. I watched his follow up as well...

His basic argument was that FFVII is shit because other games exist and the fact that other games exist factor out the possibility of liking more than one game. He admitted this when he said he "was" an FFVII fan until discovering that other games are out there...

I think he was/is an FFVII fan, just not so now because the cool thing to do is dislike it and mention less popular games....

Hence his rant that FFVII fans are mindless zombies that buy/like what the corporation tells them too....


To basically put my last 2 cents into this argument....

- New fans to the series went on a tirade about FFVII proclaiming it the greatest game ever made and continually adding fuel to the fire to the point that they set the bar so high that no RPG/game could touch it. The game is good if you play it for what it is and not what you read. I enjoyed the game while in the beginning I didn't look for too much out of it.

- People dislike the game because....
1. It's the cool thing to do/ Not follow the mainstream/popular
2. Read one too many reviews and set the bar way too high...
3. Honestly dislike the game for personal reasons/opinions.

Lolz. Honestly though, the topic of liking/disliking Final Fantasy VII has become more controversial than gay marriages, and stem cell research.

I don't know about that.

- People dislike the game because....
1. It's the cool thing to do/ Not follow the mainstream/popular.

It's also no coincedence that the same thing has happened with Naruto and Poke'mon for a long time. Well not so much anymore with Poke'mon which is nice. I remember during the late 90s to about 2000 when Poke'mon got so overly popular with a large fanbase of young children, I started getting annoyed and stoped liking it for awhile XD. And no that was not because it became a "cool thing" to not like it because of the large fan base.

But that's besides the point which is being that when anything becomes highly over rated, it does seem to become the "cool thing" to dislike it XD.

His review is nothing more than BS by some guy who wants to fit in. I watched his follow up as well...

His basic argument was that FFVII is shit because other games exist and the fact that other games exist factor out the possibility of liking more than one game. He admitted this when he said he "was" an FFVII fan until discovering that other games are out there...

I think he was/is an FFVII fan, just not so now because the cool thing to do is dislike it and mention less popular games....

Hence his rant that FFVII fans are mindless zombies that buy/like what the corporation tells them too....


To basically put my last 2 cents into this argument....

- New fans to the series went on a tirade about FFVII proclaiming it the greatest game ever made and continually adding fuel to the fire to the point that they set the bar so high that no RPG/game could touch it. The game is good if you play it for what it is and not what you read. I enjoyed the game while in the beginning I didn't look for too much out of it.

- People dislike the game because....
1. It's the cool thing to do/ Not follow the mainstream/popular
2. Read one too many reviews and set the bar way too high...
3. Honestly dislike the game for personal reasons/opinions.

I don't think this guy's video is very good, but I disagree with you about his motives. I don't think that the reason he dislikes this game is because it's cool to dislike it; I think he just sees what's wrong with it and has developed a distaste for it from its excessive hype.

Also, arguing that a game must be good because it's so popular and at the same time claiming that detractors simply dislike the game because it's cool to do so is very self-defeating.

I don't think this guy's video is very good, but I disagree with you about his motives. I don't think that the reason he dislikes this game is because it's cool to dislike it; I think he just sees what's wrong with it and has developed a distaste for it from its excessive hype.

Also, arguing that a game must be good because it's so popular and at the same time claiming that detractors simply dislike the game because it's cool to do so is very self-defeating.

A good game is a good game. FFVII is a good game, though not the best, it is still worth playing in my opinion.

Also, people not liking a game because its cool are morons. But if they choose not to play, it's their loss.

Also, arguing that a game must be good because it's so popular and at the same time claiming that detractors simply dislike the game because it's cool to do so is very self-defeating.

I never said the first part and on the second he surely comes off that way.

Edit: I did the other part was my last 2 cents...dedicated too much time to this already, lol.

Here's the short short version....

I liked the game, it was fun
People are entitled to their own opinions
The End.

Opinions are amazing things...

Buuuuut humans tend to have a need to shout abuse at each other to change each others opinions...

*Clears blood away from ears after listening to that flat voice for what seemed like an eternity*

Opinions are amazing things...

Buuuuut humans tend to have a need to shout abuse at each other to change each others opinions...

*Clears blood away from ears after listening to that flat voice for what seemed like an eternity*

That's true. There is a fine balance between having to speak for what you believe and forcing your opinions down peoples throats. No one can keep there thoughts bottled up, but at the same time no one should be so opinionated as to be heartless and tactless.

FFVII is over-rated. But I'm a Vincent Valentine fangirl for life, yo.

I guess FFVII didn't have an awesome "mindfacking" story and it should have been called EMO FANTASY VII?

That guy needs to stop complaining and find something else to do. Like play Panzer Dragoon over and over. Good game and all, but shit he is turning around and doing the same thing FFVII fans do. Praising a game. It's only because less people talk about his 'mindfucking" games that he is going out and attacking a game that has been labeled "overrated" pretty much since it was made.

It's a matter of personal preference and that's all that video was about.

I don't really see the whole emo side to FFVII.

Honestly, the emo thing should be forgotten...it's a label that has been drawn out way past it's life span and has been over done to death.

Characters have to show some emotion, I can't see anyone being totally upbeat and happy 24/7.

But the rest of your argument is well stated. FFVII became overrated because people just went ballistic and tried to set the bar way too high. I think anyone could enjoy the game, but not while expecting a life changing experience.

Two best games in the world:
Final Fantasy 7
Marvel VS Capcom 2

FF7 isn't too over-rated

I don't really see the whole emo side to FFVII.

Honestly, the emo thing should be forgotten...it's a label that has been drawn out way past it's life span and has been over done to death.

Characters have to show some emotion, I can't see anyone being totally upbeat and happy 24/7.

But the rest of your argument is well stated. FFVII became overrated because people just went ballistic and tried to set the bar way too high. I think anyone could enjoy the game, but not while expecting a life changing experience.

Yeah, FF7 has a perfect balance of emotion. Especially the part(s) where Cloud moans with agony (while clutching his head) =P
*The Story line was the best so far (excluding FF10), the battle phases were pretty good too, and the materia combinations pwned*

Go FF7!

Wow an hour without a barrage of fanboy insults? I know i'll start it, Death Penalty you're a fanboy!!!!

Only joking mate, welcome to ffshrine

FF7 isn't too over-rated

It depends on how you view the game. More often than not the people that rate FF7 as the best game ever have never even thought about all it's faults.

Loads of people rate it far too highly, there are so many things you can pick fault with it you actually take a look at it but most fanboys have stupid reasons to shout about it like Cloud's sword being cool.

I think a game needs more than that to be the best.

I've talked about this many times before, so I'll just make it simple.

FFVII is overrated simply because people make it out to be much more than it is, almost to the point of obsessing over it

The Story wasn't that great. I've played RPG's with much deeper stories.

The Main Character wasn't special. Cloud is nothing compared to Cecil, Locke, or Kain.

The female characters wasn't special. People making a big deal out of Tifa or Aerith ending up with Cloud is pathetic. Cloud doesn't love either of them. HE LOVES ZACK!

The soundtrack was one of the weakest in the series, and while One Wing Angel was nice, it takes more than one good track to complete an epic soundtrack.

The ending was one of the worst endings I've seen in an RPG. Very disappointing.

Final Fantasy VII does deserve credit for bringing Japanese RPG's to the mainstream American gamers, but now that it is the mainstream, people should realize by now that it's not the Holy Grail of the Genre.

Personally, I enjoyed Wild Arms more then FFVII. Even though the graphics weren't as good, the game had a lot of charm, likable main cast, cool story, a much better soundtrack, and a decent ending.

I've talked about this many times before, so I'll just make it simple.

FFVII is overrated simply because people make it out to be much more than it is, almost to the point of obsessing over it

The Story wasn't that great. I've played RPG's with much deeper stories.

The Main Character wasn't special. Cloud is nothing compared to Cecil, Locke, or Kain.

The female characters wasn't special. People making a big deal out of Tifa or Aerith ending up with Cloud is pathetic. Cloud doesn't love either of them. HE LOVES ZACK!

The soundtrack was one of the weakest in the series, and while One Wing Angel was nice, it takes more than one good track to complete an epic soundtrack.

The ending was one of the worst endings I've seen in an RPG. Very disappointing.

Final Fantasy VII does deserve credit for bringing Japanese RPG's to the mainstream American gamers, but now that it is the mainstream, people should realize by now that it's not the Holy Grail of the Genre.

Personally, I enjoyed Wild Arms more then FFVII. Even though the graphics weren't as good, the game had a lot of charm, likable main cast, cool story, a much better soundtrack, and a decent ending.

And don't forget that the main villain was a ridiculous "typical bishounen" with an Oedipus complex. Whenever I saw Sephiroth go all over his mother, I had to laugh so hard. Jeez, even Kefka was more masculine than Sephiroth.

Besides, OWA is, just like the game, an overrated piece. Although I do agree with your statement that the FF7 OST is one of the worst soundtracks by Uematsu, if not the worst at all.

Other than that, I can only completely agree to your posting and only add that no Final Fantasy 7 will be able to reach the (unfortunately) more unknown RPG classics like Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile or Phantasy Star IV.

Other than that, I can only completely agree to your posting and only add that no Final Fantasy 7 will be able to reach the (unfortunately) more unknown RPG classics like Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile or Phantasy Star IV.

Word, nigga.

huh, that guy's a idiot. all he is doing is making him self look bad and says 'panzar dragon is teh best game it is 1337' and etc.
so yeah I think I like FFIX better by a little ( that's under rated- he didn't mention it once!) but think that FFVII is one of the best games i have played.

P.S. i can't play FFVI. it sends me to sleep. also when there is another fight with a human, the person looks so strange! why can't they be normal size?

P.S.S. god, they bleed so much out of that series! why can they just do a remake and leave it like that!?

Umm... Has it never occured to the writer of that video that some people who play the game (like me) played it for different reasons oth than "it's the cool thing to do"? i first played ff7 when i moved to my new house, had some spare cash and thought i'd buy a new game, it just happened to be ff7, I LOVE FF7 for absolutely no reason, i know the graphics aren't great, the characters aren't perfect, it's got a really confusing plot but WHO CARES.... i love the game and it's the most enjoyable of final fantasies i've played (please note i've only played 8,9,10 and 12

I Agree with Wake25.

That's not surprising at all. We all know you're an idiot, so you would naturally agree with an idiotic post.

That's not surprising at all. We all know you're an idiot, so you would naturally agree with an idiotic post.

Thanks.

That's not surprising at all. We all know you're an idiot, so you would naturally agree with an idiotic post.
what an excellant and well structured out of topic post (oh god the sarcasm in that sentence was unbearable), what part of my post would be considered idiotic? I was stating that i enjoyed playing the game NOT because of the graphics, deep characters or compelling storyline *although i do enjoy the storyline*...

a.) You say FFVII is the best without ever playing FF I-VI
b.) Spelling

i love the game and it's the most enjoyable of final fantasies i've played (please note i've only played 8,9,10 and 12

Skunk, Wake might not be able to spell properly, but you don't seem to know how to read...

Well, I have read that, but I still don't think FFVII and the following FFs are as enjoyable as FF I-VI =P

Me neither, mind you. But to each their own, right?



Note: FF IV FTW! :P

Note: FF IV FTW! :P

Hells yeah man 2x that

Skunk, Wake might not be able to spell properly, but you don't seem to know how to read...


Me neither, mind you. But to each their own, right?



Note: FF IV FTW! :P

Thank you... I think? Anyway thanks for pointing that out, i specifically wrote that post to make it clear that i WAS NOT saying that FF7 was the best, just my favourite.

It's just a pity that what you personally think of the game doesn't matter in the slightest to the topic. That's why your post was idiotic. You came into a topic that has nothing at all to do with your personals views to fanwank on the game.

What i was trying to say was that the guy who wrote that vid-essay was saying that EVERY single person who thinks final fantasy 7 was, and maybe still is, the best game ever purely based on graphics and story. He clearly left out one very VERY obvious point... People don't NEED reasons to enjoy a game (I was using myself as an example, if you'd like i can find another one?)



.... Also screw you

And the hole gets deeper. At this rate, you'll wear out your shovel before the day is through.

What i was trying to say was that the guy who wrote that vid-essay was saying that EVERY single person who thinks final fantasy 7 was, and maybe still is, the best game ever purely based on graphics and story. He clearly left out one very VERY obvious point... People don't NEED reasons to enjoy a game (I was using myself as an example, if you'd like i can find another one?)



.... Also screw you

rofl

*sings* On his way to the graveyard...

well FFVII is over rated because the character's outfits and stories are terrific. :D

And the amount of FAIL in this thread continues to grow. About time to close it, methinks.

I demand it to be closed.

I demand it to be closed.

Close your FACE!

Close your FACE!

I saw Wookies!

Great big Wookies!

They came to maul Darth Vader!

You made a girl cry now. ;-;

I forget the YTMND addy... Search for "I Saw Wookies" on YTMND.

Examining his argument:

1) “Some FFVII fanboys think it has the best video game story ever.”
This is true. He then lists (from the games I know) two very good examples of games wih better stories than 7.

2a) “Some people think FFVII is the best Final Fantasy and is better than the previous games because of graphics.”
True also. Graphics whores litter every fandom and this is true for FFVII’s fanbase as well.

2b) “FFVI had better characters than VVII”
True also. Most of the characters in 7 had lame designs and even lamer characters. They got one character moment in the game and then all just danced to the main story’s tune.

2c) “Mighty Max is cooler than Final Fantasy VII”
FUCKING RIGHT ON!

3) “Sephiroth is the greatest villain EVAR!”
Plenty of people also say this.

4) “People like what’s popular more than what’s good”
Well duh. This is the most obvious fact of all humans. It’s a sad reality.

5) “Xenogears is a true classic.”
Also FUCKING RIGHT ON!

Now I might be able to make a better video essay but not with all the pictures and funny voices. Just not good at that.

And the amount of FAIL in this thread continues to grow. About time to close it, methinks.

wait.... we actually agree on something? close please.

FACTS

After reading this, stupid fanboys will want to kill me (well, it doesn�t matter � I�m having so much fun)

FFVII IS NOT the ONLY GAME that has FANBOYS � PERIOD . People who tend to consider FFVII overrated for the wrong or the most stupid reasons seem to humbly conceal or shut out that truth from their perfect world.

Part of why FFVII is considered overrated is because of the STUPID FFVII fanboys and the overpassionately-hating Stupid FFVI fanboys.

If you consider FFVII overrated because some jerks say that it�s the best game ever made and provide arguments such as Cloud�s sword looks sooo cool with the equal but in reverse reasoning shouldn�t it be considered underrated because other jerks say that characters had no personality or that the plot and music suck? Are you sure that there are more stupid FFVII fanboys than there are stupid FFVII haters out there? Does anyone want to count the posts here to see? If indeed there are more people that hate it for stupid reasons than the ones that like it again for stupid reasons shouldn�t it be considered underrated and not overrated? Aren�t both sides annoying?

FFVII�s characterization was at least as good as in FFVI. If people prefer one cast over the other it has NOTHING to do with anything OBJECTIVE. It�s only a matter of preference. The concept was one of the best a video game could have and the plot was really good too. If there are (which there are) other games with concepts or plots that are equally good or surpass this does that mean that the game is bad? Couldn't that mean that it can be good while others can be better?

As for the villain, why is Sephiroth overrated? Because many people find his character design cool? I find it cool too. But if that was the only reason why people liked him then I would agree too that he is overrated. But things are not like that. His personality was explored more than any other villain in FF. A tragic hero for a main character? Oh, that surely sounds cool but slightly overused. But a tragic character as the main villain? If that�s not deep what the hell is then? And how many games actually have that? He wasn�t a bad guy from the start nor did he wanted to destroy the world because he had a bad day. Square this time provided her villain with actual reasons that led him to do what he later did. Shinra screwed his life from before he was even borned and when he found out about the experiments that made him only then he begun to change and get closer to the dark side (shit that sounded too much like star wars � well, whatever). For all that, Sephiroth is one of the best examples of villain characterization in video games. There�s nothing overrated about him. And anyone who does please cut the crap about Oedipus complexes and Sephiroth being emo. Oedipus complex and cutting Jenova�s head without hesitation? Being cold and cynical and emo at the same time?

And the guy�s video? He uses every subjective argument his maggot brain can find and tries to form something that seems like an objective conclusion and universally accepted truth . Well sorry but a chicken brain could find better arguments than these to support its opinion.

As for the villain, why is Sephiroth overrated? Because many people find his character design cool? I find it cool too. But if that was the only reason why people liked him then I would agree too that he is overrated. But things are not like that. His personality was explored more than any other villain in FF. A tragic hero for a main character? Oh, that surely sounds cool but slightly overused. But a tragic character as the main villain? If that�s not deep what the hell is then? And how many games actually have that? He wasn�t a bad guy from the start nor did he wanted to destroy the world because he had a bad day. Square this time provided her villain with actual reasons that led him to do what he later did. Shinra screwed his life from before he was even borned and when he found out about the experiments that made him only then he begun to change and get closer to the dark side (shit that sounded too much like star wars � well, whatever). For all that, Sephiroth is one of the best examples of villain characterization in video games. There�s nothing overrated about him. And anyone who does please cut the crap about Oedipus complexes and Sephiroth being emo. Oedipus complex and cutting Jenova�s head without hesitation? Being cold and cynical and emo at the same time?

Failed.

Delita of Final Fantasy Tactics had tragedies that made him a villain that was much better then Sephiroth in every way . And Yes compared to much better villains, with much better back stories, he is very overrated.

Are you sure that there are more stupid FFVII fanboys than there are stupid FFVII haters out there? Does anyone want to count the posts here to see?


Thats probably because the Shrine members have done a fine job of kicking the fanboys out of the forums.

Failed.

Delita of Final Fantasy Tactics had tragedies that made him a villain that was much better then Sephiroth in every way . And Yes compared to much better villains, with much better back stories, he is very overrated.

You can't deny his quality simply because there are better villains in other games. I can't think of that as overrated cause then you would have to wonder what the hell is Kefka?

You can't deny his quality simply because there are better villains in other games. I can't think of that as overrated cause then you would have to wonder what the hell is Kefka?

He's overrated, because fanboys believe he is the ulitmate villain, not even wanting to hear about villains from other games. Quite honestly, rabid fanboys and fangirls ruined the great legacy FFVII could have had.

You can't deny his quality simply because there are better villains in other games. I can't think of that as overrated cause then you would have to wonder what the hell is Kefka?

Kefka is the only villain in FF history who was successful in reaching his goal to destroy the world.
He is the only villain in FF history who was cruel enough to erase a whole town by using poisoned water.
He's the only villain in FF history who succeeds in balancing out the cruelty of a real "badass" villain and the insanity which is needed by real villains.
And last but not least, he's the only villain in FF history who actually didn't start out as evil overlord, but more was betraying his official leader, killing him and taking over.

Show me any other villain in any FF, or if it comes down to that, any other game, who succeeded in being so evil and not only sending out henchman but also doing most of these things by himself, including getting all of the power and erasing dozens of lifes.

Kefka is the only villain in FF history who was successful in reaching his goal to destroy the world.



I never like it when people say that kefka succeeded in what he set out to do, because in the end he lost, if all the heroes died and he ended up ruling the earth for as long as he lived then it wouldn't bother me but that didn't happen. I agree he's a good villain but I don't think that's a good reason to like him. Your other comments about him I thought were spot on though.

Well, in comparison to the other villains, who never were successful in reaching their goals, reaching it temporary is definitely an improvement.

FFVIII section would have a better response.

Yes, it definately is, he managed to turn the world to ruin. No other villain came close to that except for Kuja.

PRETTY SURE ULTIMECIA REACHED HER TIME COMPRESSION GOAL

Never played FFVIII so wouldn't know that.

Oh, yeah, Ultimecia. I always forget about her, because Edea is for me the villain of FFVIII. <_<

Kefka is the only villain in FF history who was successful in reaching his goal to destroy the world.

He at least changed the landscape, Kuja on the other hand destroyed Terra.


He is the only villain in FF history who was cruel enough to erase a whole town by using poisoned water.

While not the "main" villain, President Shinra wiped out "2" entire sectors of a HUGE city, the platform one and the slums under it.


He's the only villain in FF history who succeeds in balancing out the cruelty of a real "badass" villain and the insanity which is needed by real villains.

Kefka is rather 2 dimentional, to be quite honest. And the rest of that comment is empty of point.



And last but not least, he's the only villain in FF history who actually didn't start out as evil overlord, but more was betraying his official leader, killing him and taking over.

If you want me to mention all the uniqueness of each villains, just ask. And just to let you know, you're praising Kefka as mindlessly as people praising Sephiroth.


Show me any other villain in any FF, or if it comes down to that, any other game, who succeeded in being so evil and not only sending out henchman but also doing most of these things by himself, including getting all of the power and erasing dozens of lifes.

Kuja

But I don't even like Kefka. :P

Edit: Also, it's very long ago that I played FFIX, so I forgot about the details there.

Kefka is the only villain in FF history who was successful in reaching his goal to destroy the world.
He is the only villain in FF history who was cruel enough to erase a whole town by using poisoned water.
He's the only villain in FF history who succeeds in balancing out the cruelty of a real "badass" villain and the insanity which is needed by real villains.
And last but not least, he's the only villain in FF history who actually didn't start out as evil overlord, but more was betraying his official leader, killing him and taking over.

Show me any other villain in any FF, or if it comes down to that, any other game, who succeeded in being so evil and not only sending out henchman but also doing most of these things by himself, including getting all of the power and erasing dozens of lifes.

A great villain is not necessarily someone who has done more bad deeds than others. OK, he destroyed the world (at least as it was). Has that anything to do with characterization? As noskillbassist mentioned Ultimecia managed to get time compression. Does that make her great? She is one of the worst villains because she lacks characterization and because she wants to rule the world for the sake of ruling it nothing more. Kefka is just mad. Most of his actions if not all are of no meaning exactly because of that. Having a reason for every action adds more depth to a character. Adding depth to a character is improvement not having him destroy the world. Anyway I think that if Kefka worths for something that is his sheer madness. Reasons? A mad person doesn't need them in the first place. And it's really great seeing Kefka going overboard. You'll probably say that the last part I wrote comes into contradiction with the first part and that's basically half the truth. The other half is that I think he is great for the reasons I stated at the end but that he would never qualify to rank among the greatest villains because of the reasons I stated at the beginning. (and the arguments to prove why he could be considered overrated may be somehow lost in the process - well, whatever)

Kefka was the only villain in FF history who actually didn't start out as evil overboard...ehh I mean evil overlord? What was Sephiroth, Seymour and Vayne (maybe more)?

I think it's been shown that Skunk doesn't know what the fuck she's taking about.

Sephiroth managed to stick his sword up a fat guys anus, no other FF villian could even hope to do something so evil and diabolical.

prove me wrong.

Ok... He never sticked his sword up a fat guy's anus.

There, you're wrong.

Sephiroth is the Norman Bates of video game villains. That makes him special in my book.

...No?

Sephiroth didn't play dress up in Jenova's clothes and pretend to be her. In fact it was the other way around, Jenova was controlling Sephiroth.

Though, I see what you're saying with the whole "mother" complex they shared.

In fact, Sephiroth was controlling Jenova the whole time.

Where did you get it was the other way around? The whole time, Sephiroth was in his crater, controlling Jenova and giving flashes to Cloud.

Well, I had read an interesting essay about the whole story and whatnot back when I was really into VII. It stated something like the Seph you fight isn't the real one and is a clone under Jenova's control. The final final one you fight that has 1HP is the real one but is beaten so easy since Jenova's dead and doesn't give him power, yadda yadda yadda.

I'd be hard pressed to find the essay, but if I can I'll provide a link. I liked it because it gave an alternate explanation to the story and events, yet still made sense.

"The planet belongs to Mother! But they're trying to take the planet away from Mother"

YINK YINK YINK YINK YINK YINK YINK YINK

DA DUM DA DUM DA DUM DA DUM

:iveseenthings: What?

:itsamystery:

Apologizing in advance for possible wall-o-text. :D


A great villain is not necessarily someone who has done more bad deeds than others. OK, he destroyed the world (at least as it was). Has that anything to do with characterization? As noskillbassist mentioned Ultimecia managed to get time compression.

Having your villain actually doing bad things at least helps. Not only was Ultimecia a stereotypical BBEG, but if I remember correctly, Squall and Ellone actually made Time Compression happen for her so he could go spam Renzokukens on her and Griever. Ultimecia sucks not only because she received virtually no development, but mostly because she was fucking pathetic. If nothing else, Kefka and Kuja were at least partially successful in their quests; Kefka got to rule the world for a while, and Kuja got his crazy Trance, blew up Terra, and he whacked Garland.

Sephy...was in the Northern Crater whilst his clones ran about like some sort of fucked up Where's Waldo book? That was a question because the plot was incredibly convoluted; the atrocious translation and mediocre presentation didn't help matters.


Kefka is just mad.

Prove it.


Most of his actions if not all are of no meaning exactly because of that. Having a reason for every action adds more depth to a character. Adding depth to a character is improvement not having him destroy the world.

Fail. He's established from the beginning as a ruthless bastard who enjoys the suffering of others. In Figaro, he throws a thinly veiled threat at Edgar before trying to burn Figaro Castle for his hiding of Terra. In Doma, he says something like, "we need not spare those lands that give rise to the Returners." Even after he takes over the world, his ruthlessness is again shown in zapping Tzen with the Light of Judgment. Even in the end, he reveals that he wishes to create a "monument to non-existence." Sounds kind of like Kuja to me, and very few (if any) people call him mad.


And it's really great seeing Kefka going overboard.

Best thing you've said in this thread.


Kefka was the only villain in FF history who actually didn't start out as evil overboard...ehh I mean evil overlord? What was Sephiroth, Seymour and Vayne (maybe more)?

Wrong all all three counts, and more. In FFIV, Golbez is thought to be the "evil overlord" for the majority of the plot. Nobody even knew Sephy was alive in the opening of FFVII; Shinra was the evil threatening the world. Edea was thought to be the evil sorceress in the early parts of FFVIII. Kuja was thought by Garnet to just be a weapons dealer in FFIX. Need I continue? FF has a long history of "suckering" players with red herring villains before revealing the "real" bad guy.

Apologizing in advance for possible wall-o-text. :D

Not only was Ultimecia a stereotypical BBEG, but if I remember correctly, Squall and Ellone actually made Time Compression happen for her so he could go spam Renzokukens on her and Griever.
Yeah, the truth is I focused on the result not the means of destroying the world. Ultimecia does achieve her goal because she is allowed to do so but still achieves it nevertheless.



Prove it.

He's established from the beginning as a ruthless bastard who enjoys the suffering of others. There. You proved it. The key word is "enjoys". It's not like he's just a ruthless bastard who kills and destroys without feeling any remorse. As you said he actually enjoys the suffering of others and laughs about it every time he has the chance. In my world that makes him touch the boundaries of madness if not being madness itself.



Fail. He's established from the beginning as a ruthless bastard who enjoys the suffering of others. In Figaro, he throws a thinly veiled threat at Edgar before trying to burn Figaro Castle for his hiding of Terra. In Doma, he says something like, "we need not spare those lands that give rise to the Returners." Even after he takes over the world, his ruthlessness is again shown in zapping Tzen with the Light of Judgment.

And in what way is that deep? Being mad he doesn't need reasons. Being ruthless (without being mad) explains his actions but doesn't explain why he was evil in the first place. Was he born evil? Did he get a beating from his father when a child? Did his mother refused to buy him an ice-cream? Where the kids mean to him? Providing reasons for a villain as to why he is evil (like with Sephiroth) does make it deep.



Wrong all all three counts, and more. In FFIV, Golbez is thought to be the "evil overlord" for the majority of the plot. Nobody even knew Sephy was alive in the opening of FFVII; Shinra was the evil threatening the world. Edea was thought to be the evil sorceress in the early parts of FFVIII. Kuja was thought by Garnet to just be a weapons dealer in FFIX. Need I continue? FF has a long history of "suckering" players with red herring villains before revealing the "real" bad guy.
Seeing the question again and your answer it seems that there was a lot of room for interpretation (in the question) so I�ll take it from the beginning.

Skunk reffering to Kefka said: And last but not least, he's the only villain in FF history who actually didn't start out as evil overlord�

I �translated� the �didn�t start as evil overlord� part as meaning that the villain (not neccesarily the major one) was either not evil from the start or his intentions/plan were not revealed until a certain point in the game. And then I said he wasn�t the only one who DIDN�T start as evil overlord and mentioned Sephiroth, Seymour and Vayne and I said maybe more.

Sephiroth didn�t start out as evil overlord. He wasn�t even a bad guy at first. From the chronology of the game Sephiroth became evil overlord only after discovering his past. Of course if you take the events the way they happened in the game you may say that Sephiroth did start as evil overlord because his background revelation happened after that. In the end it�s how you see it. So Sephiroth is partially valid for not starting as evil overlord.

Seymour didn�t start out as evil overlord. Yu Yevon is the ultimate bad guy in FFX but Seymour is also a villain (and a major one). Seymour�s intentions were not revealed from the start although you know there�s something wrong with him. But until you find the sphere with his father and you learn that he murdered him he is not evil overlord only a sneaky bastard. So Seymour is valid.

Vayne didn�t start as evil overlord. Arcadia (or was it Archadia - anyway) invaded Dalmasca but Vayne, as seen from his speech there, seemed like he meant no harm to the people there and also that he didn�t have bad intentions. Until he kills his father (don�t remember if he did it himself) and assumes the throne and eventually becomes the evil overlord. So Vayne is valid too for not starting out as evil overlord.

Yeah, the truth is I focused on the result not the means of destroying the world. Ultimecia does achieve her goal because she is allowed to do so but still achieves it nevertheless.

Except for the fact that she doesn't really achieve anything. She was too stupid to see that Squall and Ellone were pretty much trapping her and too weak to defeat them once she fell for it.


He's established from the beginning as a ruthless bastard who enjoys the suffering of others. There. You proved it. The key word is "enjoys". It's not like he's just a ruthless bastard who kills and destroys without feeling any remorse. As you said he actually enjoys the suffering of others and laughs about it every time he has the chance. In my world that makes him touch the boundaries of madness if not being madness itself.

Since when did sadism equal madness? There are many people who actually get sexual pleasure from inflicting pain on their partners; others get sexual pleasure from their own pain. Does that make them insane or 'mad?' In MGS, Revolver Ocelot enjoys torturing and interrogating his subjects, but I've never heard anybody call him mad. In other words, that's no proof that Kefka's mad.


And in what way is that deep? Being mad he doesn't need reasons. Being ruthless (without being mad) explains his actions but doesn't explain why he was evil in the first place. Was he born evil? Did he get a beating from his father when a child? Did his mother refused to buy him an ice-cream? Where the kids mean to him? Providing reasons for a villain as to why he is evil (like with Sephiroth) does make it deep.

First, I never said that Kefka was deep, so you fail for building a strawman. Second, you've never proven his madness. Third, Kefka was the first volunteer for the Magitek infusion process (the one that Celes went through). At the time, the process sucked and it messed with his head in a manner similar to Sephy's false revelation regarding his origins. How exactly is Sephy deep, anyway?

Since when did sadism equal madness? There are many people who actually get sexual pleasure from inflicting pain on their partners;


OK, so in what way is sexual pleasure related to Kefka? You're trying to prove the metaphorical meaning of sadism when providing arguments for the literal meaning of the word?



others get sexual pleasure from their own pain.


That's masochism.



Does that make them insane or 'mad?'


Well, you don't call them perfectly sane either.




Third, Kefka was the first volunteer for the Magitek infusion process (the one that Celes went through). At the time, the process sucked and it messed with his head...

You'll have to forgive me but I don't remember the part where this happens but if it's how you say it I ask you this. You say that the process messed with his head but also based on what you previously said that didn't make him mad but a sadist. Or was he a sadist from the start? And if he was, what are the results then from when his head was messed up?

Ok... He never sticked his sword up a fat guy's anus.

There, you're wrong.

What the fuck is sticked ?

Dunno, I was intoxicated at the time.

Drunk on the Internet.

You act as if it's a rarity :(

Nope. I dont think its rare for somebody to be "Drunk on the Internet"

OK, so in what way is sexual pleasure related to Kefka? You're trying to prove the metaphorical meaning of sadism when providing arguments for the literal meaning of the word?

If you can't see the parallel I drew there, then you're dumber than I thought. You also never said anything about my comparison between Kefka and Ocelot.


Well, you don't call them perfectly sane either.

Way to sidestep by answering a rhetorical question while ignoring my point.


You'll have to forgive me but I don't remember the part where this happens but if it's how you say it I ask you this.

An NPC in Vector reveals that bit of info. Even if you missed it, the fact that he's a magic-user should have been sufficient clue that he'd been through the Magitek infusion process, especially considering that Celes had been through it, too.


You say that the process messed with his head but also based on what you previously said that didn't make him mad but a sadist. Or was he a sadist from the start? And if he was, what are the results then from when his head was messed up?

You should know full well the game doesn't reveal that information, so why are you even asking? Then again, considering your previous 'sidestep the point' tactics, I shouldn't be a bit surprised by this. Why don't you try getting on the point for a change and giving some actual proof of Kefka's supposed madness?

mad

�adjective
1. mentally disturbed; deranged; insane; demented.
2. enraged; greatly provoked or irritated; angry.
3. (of animals)
a. abnormally furious; ferocious: a mad bull.
b. affected with rabies; rabid: a mad dog.
4. extremely foolish or unwise; imprudent; irrational: a mad scheme to invade France.
5. wildly excited or confused: frantic: mad haste.
6. overcome by desire, eagerness, enthusiasm, etc.; excessively or uncontrollably fond; infatuated: He's mad about the opera.
7. wildly gay or merry; enjoyably hilarious: to have a mad time at the Mardi Gras.
8. (of wind, storms, etc.) furious in violence: A mad gale swept across the channel.

�noun
9. an angry or ill-tempered period, mood, or spell: The last time he had a mad on, it lasted for days.
�verb (used with object)
10. Archaic. to make mad.
�verb (used without object)
11. Archaic. to be, become, or act mad.
�Idioms
12. like mad, Informal. with great haste, impulsiveness, energy, or enthusiasm: She ran like mad to catch the bus.
13. mad as a hatter, completely insane.


�Synonyms
1. lunatic, maniacal, crazed, crazy.
2. furious, exasperated, raging, wrathful, irate.
4. ill-advised; unsafe, dangerous, perilous. Mad, crazy, insane are used to characterize wildly impractical or foolish ideas, actions, etc. Mad suggests senselessness and excess: The scheme of buying the bridge was absolutely mad. In informal usage, crazy suggests recklessness and impracticality: a crazy young couple. Insane is used with some opprobrium to express unsoundness and possible harmfulness: The new traffic system is simply insane.
5. frenzied.

Ok... He never sticked his sword up a fat guy's anus.

There, you're wrong.

President Shinra

I'm pretty sure that was his stomach???

(I may be wrong since you couldn't really tell if he was facing up or down.)

He was facing down with Sephiroth's sword sticked on his back. Not in his ass.

Oh ok, thanks I couldn't remember

(its been a while since i played)

You should know full well the game doesn't reveal that information, so why are you even asking? Then again, considering your previous 'sidestep the point' tactics, I shouldn't be a bit surprised by this. Why don't you try getting on the point for a change and giving some actual proof of Kefka's supposed madness?

Does it have to be mentioned somewhere in the game? Isn�t it BLATANTLY implied inside the game that he�s mad? And if there is a point within the game that someone says �the process messed with his head� then in my world his madness is not only implied but is perfectly clear. For every reason you consider him ruthless I consider him mad. And exactly what would you accept as proof for his madness? A paper from a shrink that would confirm it or to see him masturbate on top of his tower while watching his minions having an orgy with espers and shouting � Oh, yeah I�m fucking mad?

Does it have to be mentioned somewhere in the game?

No, I just want something besides your idiotic "in my world" pseudo-equivalency bullshit...


Isn’t it BLATANTLY implied inside the game that he’s mad? And if there is a point within the game that someone says “the process messed with his head” then in my world his madness is not only implied but is perfectly clear.

...so much for asking.


For every reason you consider him ruthless I consider him mad. And exactly what would you accept as proof for his madness? A paper from a shrink that would confirm it or to see him masturbate on top of his tower while watching his minions having an orgy with espers and shouting – Oh, yeah I’m fucking mad?

Considering that all you've given me is "in my world" and your precious opinion repeated ad nauseam, shrinky papers and esper orgies is a pretty big leap, y'know.

If he was really not in his right mind, how was he able to not only formulate, but execute plans such as the imprisonment ruse and his betrayal of the Emperor? How would he come to his conclusion that life is meaningless?

If he was really not in his right mind, how was he able to not only formulate, but execute plans such as the imprisonment ruse and his betrayal of the Emperor? How would he come to his conclusion that life is meaningless?

Because madness has nothing to do with being an idiot or a genius that's why. I'm sure even a chicken brain can see that these things are irrelevant.

Animals don't have logical thought.

They operate soley on instinct.

Go tell that to the wolves.


CyanCyde, there seem to be something you missed from the definition I posted.

CyanCyde, there seem to be something you missed from the definition I posted.

Which one? :p

kefka = awesome nuff said

Kefka = overrated just as much as Sephiroth

Kuja = overrated just as much as Kefka and Sephiroth.

Well not really, but I wanted to play too.

Kefka = overrated just as much as Sephiroth

I actually was going to say this, but was afraid of VI fanboys jumping down my throat.

But I agree nonetheless.

Saying Final Fantasy villains are overrated = Climbing up the FFShrine Ladder. HI SARAH, LOVE THE FORUMS LATELY!

NICE EDIT CAMERON!

This guy are sick.

Ok i guess every Final Fantasy character is overrated...
:(

-Cecil, Kain, Rosa and the crew FFIV FTW!!!!-

Oh man Allen, you are runner up for America's next top Shriner

Oh wow really im happy ^^