I was so excited about this game and when it came out I got it straight away and at first I was really impressed but after a little while playing something hit me, where was the story? In all other Final Fantasies the story has been very prominent but in this game it seemed secondary and I didn't care at all about what happened and it seemed that there was no character interactions at all. The story was paper thin and i quickly lost interest. I played for about 20 hours and was quite far but I realised that I hardly knew the characters and I felt less connections with them than I did with, for example, Zidane in the first hour of FF9 which was very disheartening. All in all I was very dissapointed with this game and I really hope XIII goes back to what made Final Fantasy so great which was story and characters, XII had neither and for that reason I've never completed it.

This is usually everyone's issue with the game. I also felt that the characters in this game seemed very distant.

I think Square tried to be original and different by not having there be a big romance or shipping like there was in every game. I kind of liked that idea in theory and I don't blame them for wanting to try it since I was tired of seeing every FF game turn into a love story. I'd imagine the idea just came out to be a flop, having caused them to make the story not so great. But IMO this doesn't mean it can't work, it just didn't go over well. I'm sure they can avoid having a love story but keep a good drawing-in story.

But yes, I mostly agree with you, when I was playing I just wanted to explore the game and unlock the secrets, and found myself sitting through every dialogue and FMV waiting for it to end and not caring what's going on.

Honestly the only thing that kept me going was curiousity wanting to see the whole game and what it's secrets are and what the final boss was like. I can't deny that all that was very rewarding, but the story... forget it.

It's not a bad game but it's not Final fantasy quality.

Some people have compared it to Star Wars -- if it is, it may be one of the prequels. You know, a lot of political machination and stuff. Personally, I feel that while it can be hard to pick up on the story, you really start to appreciate it more if you play it a second time. A lot of stuff that didn't make sense to me at first really clicked after seeing it on a second go-round.

I think stepping away from the stereotypical clich� love story was a good choice. The story was less focused on the characters and more on the world around them, and as far as I'm concerned that was a nice break from the storylines in the other FFs.

Well I thought the story was fine love angle or not, though to be fair, this is the first Final Fantasy game I've played...who am I to judge...

Play any other FF and you'll agree with everyone that FF12's story sucks.

Play any other FF and you'll agree with everyone that FF12's story sucks.

Amen to that.

Play any other FF and you'll agree with everyone that FF12's story sucks.

I started in 1988 and played every games in the series.

And I don't agree.

I started in 1988 and played every games in the series.

And I don't agree.

The story is virtually non-existent, I'm just over 5 hours into X and the story is already much more developed than XIIs' ever was. What I like in Final fantasy are the breaks in between the fighting that show story like when you go to a new city or town and you're there for around 30 minutes learning about the characters. XII had none of that.

Well, maybe it's just the style of game you prefer. How will FFXII and its story ultimately go down in the hearts of fans? Hard to say. For what its worth, the game doesn't rank overall much lower than some at IMDb, and I believe may be higher ranked than some. Of course, that may be worth a huge sack of dragon dung, seeing as how FFVII is rated the highest there, but there ya' go.

Also, you said you never completed it, and I really do think the ending is worth your time.

It definitely seems as if Final Fantasy XII is attempting new things. I personally didn't like the main characters lack of development overall. Story was pretty good in my opinion.

XII does have it's strong points. Replacing random encounters is a huge plus in my mind. It also has a pretty huge world that's more open ended and less linear which is pretty cool.

I'd have to agree with the lack of story and late charachter developement, however i did become imerssed in the game around 15-20 hours.

i dug it

I will eventually get around to completing it but not for a while yet.

I started in 1988 and played every games in the series.

And I don't agree.

Haven'tbeen playing very long but completely agree with you. :)

An exmple of what I was looking for would be something like in IX when you first go to lindblum, theres about 30 minutes of story where you really get to know more about the characters and meet freya and then you do some battling in the monster hunt and then theres more story. The same is in X when you go to luca, theres loads of story but still battling as well. XII was just tiny story sections and loads of battling, I wanted a good mix of both.

The best story in any rpg or anything that has ever existed in earth realities, in my opinion is the story in FINAL FANTASY VI!!!

I just found out that the other day that the story was written by Yoshinori Kitase. Yoshinori Kitase is God now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_fantasy_vi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshinori_Kitase

this game's story is like average hooker short and to the point

According to those pages, Kitase directed the game, not wrote it.

"The game's story focuses on a group of rebels as they seek to overthrow an imperial dictatorship."

Sound familiar...?

According to those pages, Kitase directed the game, not wrote it.

"The game's story focuses on a group of rebels as they seek to overthrow an imperial dictatorship."

Sound familiar...?


I don't remember Han Solo riding a Chobocco but I see what you're getting at :D

The only other FF game I've played besides XII was X....I watched my bro play VII but that was it.

I really liked the storyline.....that might be because I'm a noob.....I'm planning on buying the other games.

The best story in any rpg or anything that has ever existed in earth realities, in my opinion is the story in FINAL FANTASY VI!!!

Who the fuck is that meant to be? It looks like on the police shows when peoples faces are blurred out ROFLMAO

NOTE: For anyone that can't understand sarcasm I know that's kefka ;)

According to those pages, Kitase directed the game, not wrote it.
It also lists him as the scenario writer.

this game had me at hello.

It also lists him as the scenario writer.
Fair enough.


I don't remember Han Solo riding a Chobocco but I see what you're getting at
Actually, I was thinking of XII. :)

this game had me at hello.



This game lost me at hello.

I'm not seeing that pic. What is it of, Harkus?

Or are you commenting on your inability to see it?

I don't know what it is, it's quoted from discodan.

That's my point, are you seeing a "hosted by angelfire" jpg?

Yes, it's the same way in discodans original post, I was commenting on the game itself.

Kefka is great! :)

The best story in any rpg or anything that has ever existed in earth realities, in my opinion is the story in FINAL FANTASY VI!!!


Image previously posted:

Meh VI's story is okay but I never really got into it. IX has the best story I think.

This game owes a huge debt to both. Though it comes from the world of the Tactics series, the story is clearly heavily influenced by that of both VI and IX.

IX was an interesting game in many ways because it was the last to be released for the original Playstation, and so they really respected the roots and packed in a lot of references to past games. XII is a lot like that in many ways too, and after all, it is the last of the numbered games to be released for Playstation 2.

What references are there in XII from the previous games? Currently unaware of them...:(

Oh, tons of them. XII is packed with references to past Final Fantasies. Well, for one thing, you have the Mummers of Tantalus in Archadia, which an obvious reference to Final Fantasy IX. The various airships on the Archadian Empire's side are all named after past Final Fantasy summons -- i.e. the dreadnought Leviathan, Alexander, and the sky-fortress Bahamut. On the other hand, the Rozarrian side's airships are generally named after past characters, i.e. the Garland and the Queen Hilda, which was a character in Final Fantasy II and also the name of Regent Cid's wife in Final Fantasy IX. There's also the Galuf-Val -- Galuf was the king of Val Castle in Final Fantasy V. And while we're talking Final Fantasy V references, the music that plays while fighting Gilgamesh is a remixed version of the boss battle music from the Gilgamesh battles in FFV.


The entire basics of the plot are FFVI in general -- in Final Fantasy VI, your characters took part in a resistance movement against the Empire, and had the ability to summon Espers. I also say FFIX is a major influence because one of the major characters in that game was the princess, Princess Garnet til Alexandros, who like the Princess Ashe, joins your team.


And all of those references probably just scrape the surface. I'm sure there's plenty more, though I'm not sure if there's any one clearinghouse document for them yet anywhere. I've been thinking vaguely of making one, though...

I never knew all that...wow...I feel a bit stupid now.

Thanks for enlightening me. :)

I'm just about to start XII again today. I'm going to try and get every esper and complete every hunt. Fingers-crossed the story seems better this time ;)

yeah, well even if the story didn't seem great, the game was still pretty damn fun to play

Oh, tons of them. XII is packed with references to past Final Fantasies. Well, for one thing, you have the Mummers of Tantalus in Archadia, which an obvious reference to Final Fantasy IX. The various airships on the Archadian Empire's side are all named after past Final Fantasy summons -- i.e. the dreadnought Leviathan, Alexander, and the sky-fortress Bahamut. On the other hand, the Rozarrian side's airships are generally named after past characters, i.e. the Garland and the Queen Hilda, which was a character in Final Fantasy II and also the name of Regent Cid's wife in Final Fantasy IX. There's also the Galuf-Val -- Galuf was the king of Val Castle in Final Fantasy V. And while we're talking Final Fantasy V references, the music that plays while fighting Gilgamesh is a remixed version of the boss battle music from the Gilgamesh battles in FFV.


The entire basics of the plot are FFVI in general -- in Final Fantasy VI, your characters took part in a resistance movement against the Empire, and had the ability to summon Espers. I also say FFIX is a major influence because one of the major characters in that game was the princess, Princess Garnet til Alexandros, who like the Princess Ashe, joins your team.


And all of those references probably just scrape the surface. I'm sure there's plenty more, though I'm not sure if there's any one clearinghouse document for them yet anywhere. I've been thinking vaguely of making one, though...


Wow, that's incredible! That makes me want to play VI and IX now :)

You should really think about doing that though Agent...that would entertain alot of fans.

FFXII's plot didn't quite take center stage. The introductory cutscene kinda got me in the mood, but it all went downhill after that. However, this isn't due to the exclusion of some hackneyed romance. They could have taken a few more cues from VI, which succeeded in presenting an ensemble cast that still managed to be entertaining on a personal level. Even though no one character took center stage for very long, you came to care about most of them. The main story manages to retain resonance as the intricate lives of your party intermingle and, in some cases, conflict. Now that I think of it, it reminds me of LOST.

XII fails. It just throws a bunch of characters at you with oblique references to their pasts and expects you to care whether they succeed or fail. Very poor idea. Even FFTactics, similar in theme, threw in some family drama to flesh out Ramza. The characters in FFXII get some backstory, but the effort is quite forgettable so much so that if you return to Eruyt Village you've probably forgotten why Fran won't enter. They just needed to add some depth, not say "This is Tim from accounting. Defend him with your life."


Wow, that's incredible! That makes me want to play VI and IX now :)


VI is veeeeeeeeeeeeery dated on graphics, but great if you can stand it.

I can tolerate dated graphics over superior graphics, so long as the story is more interesting than a cereal box.

FFXII could have taken a few more cues from VI, which succeeded in presenting an ensemble cast that still managed to be entertaining on a personal level. Even though no one character took center stage for very long, you came to care about most of them. The main story manages to retain resonance as the intricate lives of your party intermingle and, in some cases, conflict. Now that I think of it, it reminds me of LOST.

Those things are also true of XII. I personally found nearly all the characters to be entertaining on a personal level, and there is plenty of inter-character crossover and conflict - I can give you examples if necessary, but I'll wait for a rebuttal first.

I will accept that a couple of characters (such as Fran and Penelo) were poorly handled and have little backstory. However, I think the game errs more in that you have those two as main characters who are full time members of your party. The guests you have, as well as other NPCs, such as Gabranth and Vayne, all have a great deal to offer the plot.

Oh, trust me I can deal with all sorts of graphics :) (Resident Evil is my top videogame series)

I also agree with Ceidwad about the characters

Yeah, I agree with Ceidwad's sentiments too. A lot of the NPCs are fantastic -- Larsa for example, as well as the ones mentioned. No, I don't have too many problems as far as characters go in this game.


You should really think about doing that though Agent...that would entertain alot of fans.
Thanks! It's something I've been thinking about for my next playthrough, though I still have to finish my current one -- and I've still got a fair bit to do on that.

Those things are also true of XII. I personally found nearly all the characters to be entertaining on a personal level, and there is plenty of inter-character crossover and conflict - I can give you examples if necessary, but I'll wait for a rebuttal first.

I will accept that a couple of characters (such as Fran and Penelo) were poorly handled and have little backstory. However, I think the game errs more in that you have those two as main characters who are full time members of your party. The guests you have, as well as other NPCs, such as Gabranth and Vayne, all have a great deal to offer the plot.

Here are your "entertaining" stories:

Vaan can be summarized in one quote: "i wanna be a sky pirate!" he suffers from stereotypical design and pedestrian motives. His conflict with Basch over the death of his brother should have been gold, but was poorly utilized. Instead of intense drama, we get a few childish outbursts from Vaan until Basch's "honor" finally convinces everyone he has an evil twin. Come. Fucking. On.

Penelo is Vaan's friend. Hell of a story so far.

Ashelia, the would be Queen of Dalmasca, can't even form a decent opinion without consulting everyone else. Her story is plain bad. Her's should have been an integral role as the face of opposition to Archadian rule, but we're instead forced to watch this painfully inept monarch talk to ghosts while hunting for magic rocks. For 90% of the game.

Basch , I admit, has at least a compelling story. The noble soldier who willingly bears a heinous crime he did not commit. AND he has to face his own brother in battle. That[I] is drama. The only misstep here is not focusing on this guy more.

Balthier takes on some on a role akin to Luke Skywalker/Han Solo, the peregrine son of an Imperial officer who must confront his evil father. His was potentially the second best story as he moves against Dr Cid and maintains a relationship with the outcast Fran (though largely unspoken of, another mistake). Of course the necessary developments often take a back seat to the magic rock hunt.

Fran is forgettable. She left her tribe. She can't go back. You'd think with Balthier ranking second-best story hers would be third. Hers doesn't even get a ranking.

Vayne Solidor, meanwhile conforms to the Machiavellian "bad prince" who will unite Ivalice by any means necessary. And what better way to establish your villainous core than by *gasp* killing your own family to further your political motives? Everyone hates murderers and politicians! Predictable bad guy maneuvers like this make him transparent at best.
And personally, I appreciated that particular move more in [I]FFTactics (Dycedarg/Balbanes). And FFX (Seymour/Jyscal). In the end, he falls into the long line of game antagonists felled for "trying to create a new and better world" without first consulting the guide for RPG clich�s. Still, he's better than Ashelia. At least he has a plan.

Take all these badly handled stories and present them in short cutscenes between hour long dungeons (not to mention mandatory periods of grinding) and you have a guaranteed snore fest. Now, not only does the story suck, but its presentation as well.

I see your points to an extent but much of that is hyperbole and oversimplification, as well as a failure to appreciate the characters for what they are. For example, Ashe has a good reason to be indecisive initially, in that her whole world was taken from her two years before the events of the game, and she believes that those closest to her (i.e. Basch) are traitors and therefore would naturally be unsure on what decisions to make. Naturally, she would hate the Empire after that. Larsa comes into the plot here. It's obvious that a peace settlement would be mutually beneficial for all parties (Archadia, Bhujerba, Rozzaria, Dalmasca) but Ashe and Vayne are too bent on power and revenge fantasies to listen to Larsa's reasoning, while Ondore's hands are tied as he is practically Vayne's puppet for most of the game, albeit an unwilling one.

I completely disagree with you that Balthier fails to develop. His motives certainly develop. Initially he's a sky pirate just looking for riches. However, this materialism has completely disappeared by the end of the game. By then, Balthier's key motives are to face up to his past and his father, and, to a lesser extent, in acting as a mentor to Vaan, and of course looking out for Fran, as can be seen in the game's ending scene. Vaan follows a similar path of development to Balthier in that his early materialism gives way to other motives, such as protecting Penelo and he also has similar motives to Ashe as far as getting revenge is concerned. Of course, Vaan and Penelo obviously get less attention than the other characters, and that is something I will not argue with. But they were brought in late by the developers and although they are 'main' characters in the sense that you control Vaan in towns and cities it would be a mistake to think of them as main characters in the sense of being central to the plot. Balthier, Doctor Cid, Vayne, Basch, Ashe and Larsa all have more relevance to the real action. Vaan and Penelo are just your eyes and ears into the drama.

Edit: Also, one other thing about Vaan's development that I neglected to mention earlier. His conflict with Basch is not resolved because of Basch's 'honour', but rather because Vaan (while on an errand for Dalan in delivering the sword of the Order to Azelas (Vossler) happens to listen in on a debate between members of the resistance where Basch makes a strong logical case that Gabranth killed King Raminas.

Your argument that the entire game is just one long mindless quest for a rock after another is nonsense. The plot is a political drama, and as such, power plays a role in it. But it's not as though the entire plot is centred around the magic stones. You have numerous factions competing for power for various means. Vayne, Cid and the antagonistic judges (except arguably Gabranth) want to rule like autocrats in the place of the gods. Gabranth, Drace and Larsa are working together to ensure peace in Ivalice and stop Vayne, although Gabranth is obviously mistaken about Vayne's motives for much of the game and thus follows him too. Ondore is intent on preserving Bhujerba's sovereignty, and in turn collaborates secretly with Dalmasca's resistance. Yes, the Dawn Shard, Dusk Shard and Sun Cryst play a key role in the plot, but that's only one part of it. Even if she possessed all the stones, Ashe would still have had to convince an awful lot of people that it was right to use their power to destroy Archadia, as well as herself and her own conscience, given that the empire had used the same trick to destroy Nabradia prior to the game's events.

As for your argument that the cutscenes are too short and are spaced out by long dungeons. I disagree. The whole point of cutscenes are to convey a plot point or a character's development. XII does this satisfactorily, at least with the characters that it makes an effort to develop. What it doesn't do is give you pages of relatively inane small talk to go through (although, if that is what you like, I find some of the NPCs, particularly the Archadians, to be pretty entertaining when it comes to inane banter). The scenes which aren't particularly plot-related are enough to illustrate the characters' basic personalities (apart from Penelo and maybe Fran, who I will admit get nowhere near enough attention) whilst not being so much as to leave you impatiently pressing X to get to the end of the scene.

The argument about the dungeons on the other hand is entirely subjective. Many of us liked the challenge presented by FFXII's dungeons, even if they took a long time to complete. Another thing that is subjective is your argument that grinding was necessary to complete the game. I disagree again. There are players here that have completed the game at Levels in the low 40s. Furthermore, even if you do need to grind, you have the hunts (and plenty of them) to do, which add something to your grinding beyond just mindless killing, as they offer a mini-plot of their own, and can be very entertaining at times.

Well i've started it again and although the story still seems secondary i'm getting addicted to it.

Good man, Harkus.

XII certainly is a game that grows on you the more you play it. Like X-2, I suppose. I didn't like either when I first played them, probably because they were so different to what I'd been used to. But now I'd put them both as being at least somewhere in the middle of my list of FF games.

2 very good arguments, just about to finish my Pixel Junk game, methinks i'll take another stab at a FF game.

I see your points to an extent but much of that is hyperbole and oversimplification, as well as a failure to appreciate the characters for what they are. For example, Ashe has a good reason to be indecisive initially, in that her whole world was taken from her two years before the events of the game, and she believes that those closest to her (i.e. Basch) are traitors and therefore would naturally be unsure on what decisions to make. Naturally, she would hate the Empire after that. Larsa comes into the plot here. It's obvious that a peace settlement would be mutually beneficial for all parties (Archadia, Bhujerba, Rozzaria, Dalmasca) but Ashe and Vayne are too bent on power and revenge fantasies to listen to Larsa's reasoning, while Ondore's hands are tied as he is practically Vayne's puppet for most of the game, albeit an unwilling one.

As a rule, I always fail to appreciate badly scripted characters.

Of course the character�s motives make sense. However, feasibility doesn�t mean it�s entertaining. We�re supposed to believe Ashe to be a strong, independent leader, but she never proves to be one. Rather Square seems content to have her lead around by the ghost of her dead husband and by extension, the Occuria (the characters I derided as ghosts for anyone paying attention). It speaks volumes about her poor ability to lead if she can be manipulated so easily. Square falls into old habits by accentuating the vulnerabilities of a woman over her strengths. Might make a kind of sense but it�s a pain to watch.

Compared to other characters, Ashe again suffers from acute gender bias. Take a look at Basch, also haunted by �ghosts� in the form of Vaan�s resemblance to Reks, and Ashe in her connection to the king he failed. His stoic responses indicate he could actually deal with it, unlike the future leader of Dalmasca�s stuttering and fumbling for words. Even when her own personal feelings reach a culminating point, Ashe�s struggle with revenge/peace is meaninglessly internal when the larger struggle of freedom or oppression from the Occuria surfaces. Larsa should just conquer Dalmasca. He�s a child who lost two brothers and a father, but still manages to handle decisions better than Ashe. If that�s not gender bias, the term should be redefined to include it. As a main character, Ashe remains rife with suck.



I completely disagree with you that Balthier fails to develop. His motives certainly develop. Initially he's a sky pirate just looking for riches. However, this materialism has completely disappeared by the end of the game. By then, Balthier's key motives are to face up to his past and his father, and, to a lesser extent, in acting as a mentor to Vaan, and of course looking out for Fran, as can be seen in the game's ending scene.

Are you kidding? April Fool�s was two weeks ago. Too late for that kind of nonsense.

First, you are completely wrong about his materialism. It stays with him throughout the entirety of the game, just look at the ending. Did you watch the whole thing? I�m not sure what the Cache of Glabados is but it sounds a lot like another treasure hunt. This is because his character type is merely recycled from previous Square games as the noble rouge who always reverts to type after the climax. See Locke/Setzer/Yuffie/Rikku/Zidane/etc. He is a clone, which makes his story predictable and therefore dull to watch unfold.
Secondly, I shall I define this idiom for you since you don�t seem to know the meaning (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/take+a+back+seat).

take a back seat
1. if an activity takes a back seat, you spend less time doing that than other things. [He's been putting all his energies into house-hunting recently so his studies have had to take a back seat. In my early twenties, politics very much took a back seat to sport and socializing.]

Which means I did not imply that it �failed to develop� entirely. Balthier�s story, which I even complimented as a runner-up (clich�d as it is), is rather regrettably dwarfed by the larger, bland events surrounding the machinations of Ashe and Vayne.



Vaan follows a similar path of development to Balthier in that his early materialism gives way to other motives, such as protecting Penelo and he also has similar motives to Ashe as far as getting revenge is concerned. Of course, Vaan and Penelo obviously get less attention than the other characters, and that is something I will not argue with. But they were brought in late by the developers and although they are 'main' characters in the sense that you control Vaan in towns and cities it would be a mistake to think of them as main characters in the sense of being central to the plot. Balthier, Doctor Cid, Vayne, Basch, Ashe and Larsa all have more relevance to the real action. Vaan and Penelo are just your eyes and ears into the drama.

Vaan is still the poster boy for RPGs: bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, and full of spunk. A walking, talking clich�. They tried to fix this in Jahara with the �i�m just running away from my problems� speech which resolves that leg of the story prematurely. Vaan has little reason to remain part of the party except for his one-dimensional desire to become a sky pirate. Again this only strengthens my case that the story could have sucked a whole lot less.

Squares decision to include Vaan in FFXII late in the developmental stages reeks of the marketing department. They started pushing Vaan and Ashe as twin protagonists as early as 2003. So why then would they write Vaan one of the weakest scenarios in the game? It�s an egregious decision to include a faux protagonist (Vaan) and expect players to maintain interest in his meagre plot.

I don't get it. You say you agree with me and won�t argue, but then try to excuse the developer�s awful decisions in the very next sentence. The simple truth is it�s not a mistake for the player to think of Vaan as a main character, it was a mistake for Square to promote him as such.

Also, you should really stop mentioning Penelo if you want to maintain a solid argument as it�s obvious she has the least to contribute dramatically. Vaan can be considered your eyes and ears as it were. Penelo is totally superfluous.



Edit: Also, one other thing about Vaan's development that I neglected to mention earlier. His conflict with Basch is not resolved because of Basch's 'honour', but rather because Vaan (while on an errand for Dalan in delivering the sword of the Order to Azelas (Vossler) happens to listen in on a debate between members of the resistance where Basch makes a strong logical case that Gabranth killed King Raminas.

Here�s my point: this still absolves Basch of all guilt much too early and therefore sacrifices what could have been an entertaining drama. This is still a weak scenario.


Your argument that the entire game is just one long mindless quest for a rock after another is nonsense. The plot is a political drama, and as such, power plays a role in it. But it's not as though the entire plot is centred around the magic stones. You have numerous factions competing for power for various means. Vayne, Cid and the antagonistic judges (except arguably Gabranth) want to rule like autocrats in the place of the gods. Gabranth, Drace and Larsa are working together to ensure peace in Ivalice and stop Vayne, although Gabranth is obviously mistaken about Vayne's motives for much of the game and thus follows him too. Ondore is intent on preserving Bhujerba's sovereignty, and in turn collaborates secretly with Dalmasca's resistance. Yes, the Dawn Shard, Dusk Shard and Sun Cryst play a key role in the plot, but that's only one part of it. Even if she possessed all the stones, Ashe would still have had to convince an awful lot of people that it was right to use their power to destroy Archadia, as well as herself and her own conscience, given that the empire had used the same trick to destroy Nabradia prior to the game's events.

Crystal, rock, it�s about the same. They�re just weapons, that�s all. How can you even mention Drace with significance and keep a straight face? Her only role was to further Gabranth�s ambivalence between Vayne and Larsa with her execution. But thank you for that lengthy exposition since it proves my point that everyone was hunting for magic rocks. Again, this is far from the first FF to send you on a wild goose chase for magic rocks/crystals. As such the plot IS centred around the collection of these stones. You spend practically the whole game hunting them and related objects. Like Aeons in FFX and Spheres in FFX-2.

�...destroy Nabradia�? Who�s using hyperbole here now? It was just the capital city Nabudis, not the whole region.



As for your argument that the cutscenes are too short and are spaced out by long dungeons. I disagree. The whole point of cutscenes are to convey a plot point or a character's development. XII does this satisfactorily, at least with the characters that it makes an effort to develop.

How can you disagree with a fact? Play through the Tomb of King Raithwall again. Though, as you�ve said, there were no notably redundant scenes, it really doesn�t matter when you�re only furthering sub par stories in the first place. Also, the fact that XII didn�t make the effort to develop all of its main characters speaks volumes against the merits of the story.


What it doesn't do is give you pages of relatively inane small talk to go through (although, if that is what you like, I find some of the NPCs, particularly the Archadians, to be pretty entertaining when it comes to inane banter). The scenes which aren't particularly plot-related are enough to illustrate the characters' basic personalities (apart from Penelo and maybe Fran, who I will admit get nowhere near enough attention) whilst not being so much as to leave you impatiently pressing X to get to the end of the scene.

The argument about the dungeons on the other hand is entirely subjective. Many of us liked the challenge presented by FFXII's dungeons, even if they took a long time to complete. Another thing that is subjective is your argument that grinding was necessary to complete the game. I disagree again. There are players here that have completed the game at Levels in the low 40s. Furthermore, even if you do need to grind, you have the hunts (and plenty of them) to do, which add something to your grinding beyond just mindless killing, as they offer a mini-plot of their own, and can be very entertaining at times.

First, I�m not really here to debate how enjoyable the dungeons are, rather how they can hamper the story�s presentation. Though since you've brought it up, I personally enjoyed the gameplay much more than the story like many others so you�re really arguing with your own mistaken interpretation of my words.

I congratulate the talented players who managed to pass the game by their low 40s. However, I�m not quite convinced they represent the majority. With all these �Help PLZ� threads littering the forum, I�ll wager that many players do have to grind. Not that grinding in FFXII isn�t entirely unpleasant but it kills the presentation when the cutscenes are already so spaced out.

So overall, the story still sucks.

Wow, you guys really know your stuff! I can't wait to read more :)

Doom jockey, while I accept some of your points, I'm still not totally in agreement with you, particularly on the main points of the debate.


As a rule, I always fail to appreciate badly scripted characters.

Of course the character’s motives make sense. However, feasibility doesn’t mean it’s entertaining. We’re supposed to believe Ashe to be a strong, independent leader, but she never proves to be one. Rather Square seems content to have her lead around by the ghost of her dead husband and by extension, the Occuria (the characters I derided as ghosts for anyone paying attention). It speaks volumes about her poor ability to lead if she can be manipulated so easily. Square falls into old habits by accentuating the vulnerabilities of a woman over her strengths. Might make a kind of sense but it’s a pain to watch.

Compared to other characters, Ashe again suffers from acute gender bias. Take a look at Basch, also haunted by “ghosts” in the form of Vaan’s resemblance to Reks, and Ashe in her connection to the king he failed. His stoic responses indicate he could actually deal with it, unlike the future leader of Dalmasca’s stuttering and fumbling for words. Even when her own personal feelings reach a culminating point, Ashe’s struggle with revenge/peace is meaninglessly internal when the larger struggle of freedom or oppression from the Occuria surfaces. Larsa should just conquer Dalmasca. He’s a child who lost two brothers and a father, but still manages to handle decisions better than Ashe. If that’s not gender bias, the term should be redefined to include it. As a main character, Ashe remains rife with suck.

I disagree that Ashe's strengths are necessarily ignored. Sure, there are scenes in which she shows a vulnerable, indecisive side but she also shows a strong side and a determination to succeed in a lot of scenes, especially when Imperial foes are concerned. E.g., she overwhelms the Imperial soldiers in the Garamsythe Waterway, is the first to stand up to Ghis on the Leviathan et cetera.

In any case, in that post you have clearly shown your misunderstanding of Ashe's character. She is not intended to be portrayed as a strong and independent leader. She is more accurately intended to be portrayed as a tortured soul trying to maintain an aura of strength and independence, as she tries to wrest back her kingdom. The whole point is to define her as a character rather lost in her vision, as one vainly battling to restore her kingdom while more important events pass her by. She is trying to be strong despite her natural weaknesses.

On that note, as for your claim that there is some gender bias inherent in Square's games. What utter baloney. I suppose Beatrix was also the stereotypical helpless woman in a man's world? Or Lulu, for that matter? Or Rikku, even? All those characters cope exceptionally well despite adversity. And then there's the male characters in the series that cope really well with their problems: Cloud, Squall, Vivi, et cetera.


Are you kidding? April Fool’s was two weeks ago. Too late for that kind of nonsense.

First, you are completely wrong about his materialism. It stays with him throughout the entirety of the game, just look at the ending. Did you watch the whole thing? I’m not sure what the Cache of Glabados is but it sounds a lot like another treasure hunt. This is because his character type is merely recycled from previous Square games as the noble rouge who always reverts to type after the climax. See Locke/Setzer/Yuffie/Rikku/Zidane/etc. He is a clone, which makes his story predictable and therefore dull to watch unfold.
Secondly, I shall I define this idiom for you since you don’t seem to know the meaning (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/take+a+back+seat).

Those events occur after the main story, do they not? I am not denying that Balthier's impulsive materialistic streak does not remain, rather that it gives way to his non-materialistic side later in the game. After the events of the game, with his past back in perspective, Fran being safe and sound and the political crisis dealt with, it makes sense that he would turn his attention back to what he does best: sky pirating.

That does not mean a lack of development. You will note that before the game Balthier's materialistic streak got the better of him as he ran from his personal problems. His development is not so much a massive shift in his character (because that rarely happens to any character in FF games) but rather a realisation of mistakes made in the past. Much like the development of any hero from the series.

As for your argument that Balthier is too similar to Locke/Setzer/Yuffie/Rikku/Zidane/etc, I'm afraid that's simply something that comes with such a lengthy series as Final Fantasy. There are only so many basic character types that can be done so inevitably there will be some recycling between games. However, I would contend that Balthier's personality is actually somewhat different from those that you gave, despite all of them sharing a love of treasure. His general demeanour differs from Rikku and Zidane in that he's a lot less optimistic and more blunt; furthermore, until later in the game he also seems reluctant to play hero, despite calling himself the 'leading man', unlike Locke. He arguably has a lot in common with Yuffie in that they both join the party purely for reasons of wealth, but at least Balthier shows a different side later in the game.

I disagree that Balthier is like any of those characters in any way beyond the basic archetype, and in a series of around 15 games, I find it hard to see how you can possibly avoid recycling characters from time to time.


Here’s my point: this still absolves Basch of all guilt much too early and therefore sacrifices what could have been an entertaining drama. This is still a weak scenario.

Basch had already been resigned to his fate of being hated by his people. He had no guilt in the first place, as he did not kill King Raminas. You are right in that the plot thread could have been made longer, but why bother? It would simply be the same thing repeated over and over. Vaan would throw a hissy fit, Basch would deny ever having done anything. It would get exceptionally boring after a while.


Crystal, rock, it’s about the same. They’re just weapons, that’s all. How can you even mention Drace with significance and keep a straight face? Her only role was to further Gabranth’s ambivalence between Vayne and Larsa with her execution. But thank you for that lengthy exposition since it proves my point that everyone was hunting for magic rocks. Again, this is far from the first FF to send you on a wild goose chase for magic rocks/crystals. As such the plot IS centred around the collection of these stones. You spend practically the whole game hunting them and related objects. Like Aeons in FFX and Spheres in FFX-2.

I don't see your point. Every game needs a basic hook. Of course the magic stones play an important role in the plot, but any RPG has an ultimate aim. Your original assertion was that the game was just about the 'magic rock hunt'. That is not true, as has been shown.


“...destroy Nabradia”? Who’s using hyperbole here now? It was just the capital city Nabudis, not the whole region.

Actually, it did destroy the greater part of Nabradia. The Nabreus Deadlands and the necrohol of Nabudis, along with the salikawood, are, to my recollection, the only parts indicated on the map as being 'Nabradia'. The former two were destroyed; the latter is just an entrance to Archadia.


How can you disagree with a fact? Play through the Tomb of King Raithwall again.

It's not a fact. It's pure opinion. I personally did not find either the dungeons to be too long nor the cutscenes to be too short. That statement carries exactly the same weight as yours, unless you'd like to go further.


First, I’m not really here to debate how enjoyable the dungeons are, rather how they can hamper the story’s presentation. Though since you've brought it up, I personally enjoyed the gameplay much more than the story like many others so you’re really arguing with your own mistaken interpretation of my words.

I have to again disagree. Although certain later dungeons are indeed very long, most take little more than a couple of hours to complete if you focus purely on completing them. They are almost always followed by a significant piece of plot. If you can't wait two hours for the story to advance, I think the problem is yours, not the game's.

One thing that I will agree on is that doing too many hunts or optional espers breaks up the plot. However, those are optional.


I congratulate the talented players who managed to pass the game by their low 40s. However, I’m not quite convinced they represent the majority. With all these “Help PLZ” threads littering the forum, I’ll wager that many players do have to grind. Not that grinding in FFXII isn’t entirely unpleasant but it kills the presentation when the cutscenes are already so spaced out.

If you're basing a point on 'help plz' threads from this forum I'm afraid that's akin to building your house on the sand. We get 'help plz' threads from people on games such as FFX-2 and FFVII, which are ridiculously easy games by the standards of the series. Thus, you prove nothing with that statement. I think you're going to have to concede that this point is indeed subjective.

I personally completed the game in my late 40's and early 50's. Although I did some grinding just before entering the Bahamut, that turned out to be unnecessary as I beat the last boss relatively easily.

Doom jockey, while I accept some of your points, I'm still not totally in agreement with you, particularly on the main points of the debate.



I disagree that Ashe's strengths are necessarily ignored. Sure, there are scenes in which she shows a vulnerable, indecisive side but she also shows a strong side and a determination to succeed in a lot of scenes, especially when Imperial foes are concerned. E.g., she overwhelms the Imperial soldiers in the Garamsythe Waterway, is the first to stand up to Ghis on the Leviathan et cetera.

In any case, in that post you have clearly shown your misunderstanding of Ashe's character. She is not intended to be portrayed as a strong and independent leader. She is more accurately intended to be portrayed as a tortured soul trying to maintain an aura of strength and independence, as she tries to wrest back her kingdom. The whole point is to define her as a character rather lost in her vision, as one vainly battling to restore her kingdom while more important events pass her by. She is trying to be strong despite her natural weaknesses.

I concede this.



On that note, as for your claim that there is some gender bias inherent in Square's games. What utter baloney. I suppose Beatrix was also the stereotypical helpless woman in a man's world? Or Lulu, for that matter? Or Rikku, even? All those characters cope exceptionally well despite adversity. And then there's the male characters in the series that cope really well with their problems: Cloud, Squall, Vivi, et cetera.

I disagree, as I believe Square embraces too readily, a handful of stereotypes for a given game. Though Ashe isn't weak, I believe Square had a good chance to make her a stronger and more independent character but instead chooses to have her pine away for lost love which she then (arguably) transfers to Basch. It reeks of "I can't get by without a strong man" syndrome.



Those events occur after the main story, do they not? I am not denying that Balthier's impulsive materialistic streak does not remain, rather that it gives way to his non-materialistic side later in the game. After the events of the game, with his past back in perspective, Fran being safe and sound and the political crisis dealt with, it makes sense that he would turn his attention back to what he does best: sky pirating.

The actual hunt probably occurs in Revnant Wings, but Baltheir’s intention to seek the the “Cache of Glabados” is mentioned in his letter during the ending of FFXII proper. Again, Balthier’s return to sky pirating might “make sense,” but doesn’t mean it’s entertaining especially where Square's reusing a tired plot element.


That does not mean a lack of development. You will note that before the game Balthier's materialistic streak got the better of him as he ran from his personal problems. His development is not so much a massive shift in his character (because that rarely happens to any character in FF games) but rather a realisation of mistakes made in the past. Much like the development of any hero from the series.

Which again proves how stale the character type has become. Balthier didn’t have to go back to sky pirating. In fact, I heard he retired in Revnant Wings, which really shows how dedicated Square was to moulding his character in the same old crucible for the sake of FFXII. They couldn't include his retirement in FFXII? At least it would have been different. Instead we see the same tired rouge hungry for more treasure. Repetition does not a good tale make.


As for your argument that Balthier is too similar to Locke/Setzer/Yuffie/Rikku/Zidane/etc, I'm afraid that's simply something that comes with such a lengthy series as Final Fantasy. There are only so many basic character types that can be done so inevitably there will be some recycling between games. However, I would contend that Balthier's personality is actually somewhat different from those that you gave, despite all of them sharing a love of treasure. His general demeanour differs from Rikku and Zidane in that he's a lot less optimistic and more blunt; furthermore, until later in the game he also seems reluctant to play hero, despite calling himself the 'leading man', unlike Locke. He arguably has a lot in common with Yuffie in that they both join the party purely for reasons of wealth, but at least Balthier shows a different side later in the game.

Is is provided your writing skills are at an acceptable standard of quality. I understand that, in a broader sense, every story draws from others before it, but that shouldn’t permit the dogged repetition of so similar archetypes. Do these small details in his behaviour distance him enough from the archetype so as to prove just as or more entertaining? I am not in agreement they do.

That he’s less optimistic and more reluctant doesn't matter. His story follows the same arc as every archetype before him. This is simply weak writing.


I disagree that Balthier is like any of those characters in any way beyond the basic archetype, and in a series of around 15 games, I find it hard to see how you can possibly avoid recycling characters from time to time.

Clich�s aren't unavoidable. You don’t have to include the “noble rouge” in your game. Must we cling so stubbornly to tradition?


Basch had already been resigned to his fate of being hated by his people. He had no guilt in the first place, as he did not kill King Raminas. You are right in that the plot thread could have been made longer, but why bother? It would simply be the same thing repeated over and over. Vaan would throw a hissy fit, Basch would deny ever having done anything. It would get exceptionally boring after a while.

He has guilt. Just because he didn’t kill any of their relations doesn’t mean he didn’t feel as if he’d failed:


Basch: “Balthier is a man worthy of our trust. And it was the Lady Ashe’s
decision. I am content to lend my arm. As I could not when Rasler died, when
her throne was taken. Never again. I will defend her this time.”

That does not sound like a man devoid of guilt as you would frame him.

The story need not repeat itself over and over. By extending it, Vaan could grow provided the writers script a better scenario than the same old argument.

Edit: Since many of my points were mistaken for inflammatory, I've since excised/rewritten most which could be construed as offensive.

This debate is one sided. One easily shows the uper hand in debating skills, and it is easy to see the one with weak arguments being the one getting frustrated...

el oh el

I like politics, strong and complex plot lines (as opposed to a purely character-driven story), and a wide, top-down all-encompassing vantage point for the audience (rather than a single character's reflective narration); therefore I LOVE FFXII.

Personally, I could watch Dune or Firefly a thousand times over before I would want to watch anime. In my eyes, these represent two distinct genres that Squeenix has pursued in the last few years, apples and oranges. I could argue why FFXII is a fantastic game and why FFX sucks ass, but it simply comes down to personal taste and preferences.

(This of course only illustrates my feelings about the game's story structure and characters and says nothing of its mechanics).

I like politics, strong and complex plot lines (as opposed to a purely character-driven story), and a wide, top-down all-encompassing vantage point for the audience (rather than a single character's reflective narration); therefore I LOVE FFXII.

Personally, I could watch Dune or Firefly a thousand times over before I would want to watch anime. In my eyes, these represent two distinct genres that Squeenix has pursued in the last few years, apples and oranges. I could argue why FFXII is a fantastic game and why FFX sucks ass, but it simply comes down to personal taste and preferences.

(This of course only illustrates my feelings about the game's story structure and characters and says nothing of its mechanics).


I like your style!

I feel exactly the same way! I didn't like X that much because the story did not go deep enough and was not as complex as XII.

I like watching stories unfold and having to actually try to think about all that's going on.

Final Fantasy X = A group of people trying to save the world from a monster that will come back over and over again....smack a love story in there and it all of a sudden becomes a good story.

A disappointingly simplistic analysis of FFX's story, although correct in some essentials. But I don't really feel like getting into a debate of the quality of X's story as opposed to XII's.

A disappointingly simplistic analysis of FFX's story, although correct in some essentials. But I don't really feel like getting into a debate of the quality of X's story as opposed to XII's.

I can understand Terabyte's stand here. Character driven stories has been done to death. With FF XII, the story is some kind of introduction to the world of Ivalice. With the events going on happening prior to the Fifty Year War, the War of the Lions, or the civil War of Valandia. It's like they did a "prologue to Ivalice" kind of game. With Ivalice getting the "main character" role.

Don't get me wrong, I would have gladly taken more character interaction cut-scenes. Not because I think they were lacking. But because I really loved these characters, and would have liked to "be with them" longer.

Hynad, terabyte, we've done the FFX debate before. We all know where we stand on it and I highly doubt any of us will change our minds on it. It's been debated to death and there's little point bringing it up in other threads that aren't to do with the subject. If you really want to talk about it, go look up one of the other debate threads we've talked about it in and refute my points. Ubernoob, you are also welcome to read those debates on the matter if you wish, but rest assured that I will defend X robustly from any of you guys.

Also, doomjockey has sent me a PM about this and I think we're going to give this another go, though I had initially given up as I felt it was descending into a pointless flame war with too many personal jibes. But hopefully we'll succeed in debating it in a more civilised manner after having got his PM, so expect a post from me on this sometime within the next few days.

And Hynad, I largely agree with your thoughts on FFXII's plot/character/setting balance, although I do admit there are points within the game that could have used a little dialogue. However, where I disagree with doomjockey is that those flaws are major ones; I consider them relatively minor.

Hynad, terabyte, we've done the FFX debate before. We all know where we stand on it and I highly doubt any of us will change our minds on it. It's been debated to death and there's little point bringing it up in other threads that aren't to do with the subject. If you really want to talk about it, go look up one of the other debate threads we've talked about it in and refute my points. Ubernoob, you are also welcome to read those debates on the matter if you wish, but rest assured that I will defend X robustly from any of you guys.

Also, doomjockey has sent me a PM about this and I think we're going to give this another go, though I had initially given up as I felt it was descending into a pointless flame war with too many personal jibes. But hopefully we'll succeed in debating it in a more civilised manner after having got his PM, so expect a post from me on this sometime within the next few days.

And Hynad, I largely agree with your thoughts on FFXII's plot/character/setting balance, although I do admit there are points within the game that could have used a little dialogue. However, where I disagree with doomjockey is that those flaws are major ones; I consider them relatively minor.


Oh I didn't mean to start a debate :)

I was just trying to use an example on why I like XII better then X....only my opinion.

Forgive me guys, I didn't mean to bring up FFX as a debate point. Just as a contrasting example.

For the record, I think FFX had its high points, - I loved it's anti-organized religion theme - but it's such a vastly different game from FFXII in terms of style and story elements. (Well, FFXII had an anti-god feel, too didn't it) :)

Also, FFXII did indeed have a few very strong characters: Basch, Gabranth, Balthier, Vossler, and Larsa were extremely well-written, I thought (sadly, no strong females - which appears to be reconciled with XIII, w00t!)

Cheers,
T

Terabyte, you should read the thread about FF games and religion that Agent made. It's in the General FF section. I think FFX was more criticising the medieval Catholic Church which was very political as opposed to modern organized religion which is less so. Also, I disputed that FFXII is necessarily 'anti-God' there, especially since the 'gods' (Occurians) have little function in any of Ivalice's religions and just seem to be immensely powerful beings.

Also, doomjockey has PMed me back asking to call it off, so I think I'll take him up on that offer, since the less hour-long posts I have to make for the sake of an argument that will probably end in stalemate, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, like most people, my biggest problem with Final Fantasy XII was the lack of a strong story. This game reminded me of Final Fantasy V, because like it, XII focused more on gameplay instead of a strong storyline and character development. The only characters I ended up liking was Fran and Balthier. Because you got a sense of their characters better than even Ashe and Vann.

FFXII reminded me of FFV quite a bit some ways, but I like FFV. Well, then again, I like XII reasonably well, too...

I've said before more than once that Vaan reminds me of Butz.

The only characters I ended up liking was Fran and Balthier.

Balthiers pretty good but I have to turn the volume down on my TV when fran talks, her voice goes right through me.

Final Fantasy shares references to Star Wars throughout the entire series. I actually thought XII's story was strong, and soaked with political intrigue. I also considered this game to be a lot more "Grown up" than the previous titles.

Final Fantasy shares references to Star Wars throughout the entire series. I actually thought XII's story was strong, and soaked with political intrigue. I also considered this game to be a lot more "Grown up" than the previous titles.

You took the words right out of my mouth. You must be one of those few forum members over the age of 16. :)