Begin big block of quotes



In the beginning, there was Void. Then four Spirits came. Together in this
Void, the Crystals were born and the world was created. Thus, Hope gave the Earth blessings, Courage lit the flame, Kindness makes water the source of life and Quest lets wisdom ride upon the wind. - Final Fantasy V


1000 years have passed... Iron, gunpowder and steam engines have been
rediscovered, and high technology reigns...

But there are some who would enslave the world by reviving the dread
destructive force known as "magic." - Final Fantasy VI


Bugenhagen: The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls? The soul too returns to the Planet. And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In fact, all living things in the universe, are the same. The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another
and roam the Planet. They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'. Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet. 'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget. - Final Fantasy VII


Squall: (...Alive? We still have to get back.) We may be alive right now... But look at our situation... You want to live, right? You want to go back and see everyone, right?
Rinoa: And not become other people's memories?
Squall: That's right.


"Everyone... Thank you... Farewell. My memories will be part of the sky..." - Final Fantasy IX


Tidus: What, you're not going either, Rikku?
Rikku: I keep my memories inside.
Tidus: Huh?
Rikku: Memories are nice, but that's all they are.


Wakka: But you Al Bhed use the forbidden machina! You know what that means? Sin was born because people used machina!
Rikku: "You got proof? Show me proof!
Wakka: It's in Yevon's teachings! Not that you'd know!"
Rikku: That's not good enough! Yevon says this, Yevon says that. Can't you think for yourself?
... ...
Wakka: If we keep faith in Yevon's teachings it will be gone one day!
Rikku: Why do I even bother?


Auron: So this is Yevon's true face. They betray their own teachings.
Wakka: They treated us like dirt. - Final Fantasy X


Cid: They’ll be off chasing after shadows, the fools. Ah, yes! The reins of history back in the hands of man. - Final Fantasy XII


Sora: Now I know, I don't need a weapon. My friends are my strength! - Kingdom Hearts


Sora: Hey Riku...what do you it was---the door to the light?
Riku: This.
Sora: This?
Riku: Yeah. It's always closer than you think. - Kingdom Hearts II



End big block of quotes


When it comes to religion in Final Fantasy (and Kingdom Hearts) games there seems to be some constants:

A.) No belief in a monotheistic "god" of any sort, and usually, a lack of belief in any "gods." When there are "gods," they are tangible beings that can be known and met.
B.) Oftentimes no formal religion of any sort
C.) An abiding distrust of any traditional religion when it is on display, i.e. X
D.) Magic is always present, but isn't necessarily a mystical force, and can be studied and understood.

FFV - naturalism. The world was created by the forces of the four crystals, which lend the various elements.

FFVI - Magic and the dangers of it. No specific religious references

FFVII - The Lifestream serves as a form of "afterlife" of sorts. I suppose some people might refer to the concept as very "hippy dippy."

FFVIII - The characters don't generally seem to believe in an afterlife. Squall seems very afraid of dying because then he will be only "other people's memories."

FFIX - The characters express that they have souls, but have a nebulous concept of an afterlife at best. No formal religious system, except maybe the monks at the Mount Gulug.

FFX - The big one. The characters topple a corrupt "religious" system. In the process, they learn more about themselves and the world they live in.

FFXII - The characters end up a toppling a group of powerful beings claiming to be "gods."

Kingdom Hearts - Characters strongly seem to believe that their life is defined by the friendships they make and the memories they leave in the hearts of others.



All in all, some of the Final Fantasy religious worldviews seem to be very much in line with my own, which, as I mentioned in the religion thread a while back, are atheistic/agnostic at best. I once got my mom to play the Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts games, but I doubt she learned much of anything from them. As I mentioned in that thread also, she's recently turned more toward the Christian church. I've noticed her views evolve more and more towards what I'm coming to thing of as the "Christian party-line" -- a growing intolerance of homosexuals / near-homophobia, an annoying tendency to ascribe all great things to the mystical work of Jesus, hypocritical views regarding anyone who takes a negative attitude towards Christmas (this is from a woman who as recently as a couple years ago barely wanted a tree), etc. etc. But enough about my mom. Thoughts? Comments? Agreement? Analysis? Rebuttal?

But enough about my mom.

No. I want to hear more about your mom. :-P

But in all seriousness, my personal feeling is that there is an afterlife.... not like the Christian afterlife but the same way Kingdom Hearts looks at it. We live on in the memory and hearts of our friends and family.

Erebus, if you're actually serious about wanting to hear more, you're welcome to PM me. :)


Yeah, I like the Kingdom Hearts view too.

I've removed the quotes for the purpose of shortening this post, which I believe will probably be fairly lengthy, even by my own standards. I'm going to try to keep this on-topic as much as possible, but there will inevitably be times where I drift into speaking about religion in our own world.

Anyway, here goes. As you may know Agent, I haven't played FFV and have limited knowledge of FFVI, so I won't comment on those. Also, I haven't played the original KH (although I have got KHII, and have played a few hours of it. Why do I have KHII and not I? Well, suffice to say, it was on offer and I took advantage.) Anyway, don't expect any comment from me there, either.



When it comes to religion in Final Fantasy (and Kingdom Hearts) games there seems to be some constants:

A.) No belief in a monotheistic "god" of any sort, and usually, a lack of belief in any "gods." When there are "gods," they are tangible beings that can be known and met.

I would dispute that, citing the case of FFXII. Although it isn't mentioned much, there is a monotheistic faith much resembling Christianity present in FFXII. You'll recall in the opening scenes, Ashe and Rasler make their wedding vows 'in the name of the Father' i.e. the Christian God. Then you have the main followers of that religion on Mt. Bur Omisace, the Kiltias, who if I'm right, follow a prophet named Kiltia, i.e. Jesus. Also, if you talk to one of the Kiltias and observe closely, they do something which is rather similar to the Catholic practice of blessing yourself by signing the cross.

Not a lot is explained about that faith in the game, but I believe the story of FF Tactics which is set in Ivalice revolves around it. I haven't played FFT though, so I couldn't comment any further here.


B.) Oftentimes no formal religion of any sort
C.) An abiding distrust of any traditional religion when it is on display, i.e. X
D.) Magic is always present, but isn't necessarily a mystical force, and can be studied and understood.

I broadly agree with all of these, though again would question you on XII. In XII, the faith is portrayed at worst with indifference and at best in a somewhat positive manner. The Kiltias provide food and shelter for the refugees of Landis and Nabudis, for example.


FFVII - The Lifestream serves as a form of "afterlife" of sorts. I suppose some people might refer to the concept as very "hippy dippy."

I would describe FFVII's belief system as being broadly pantheistic (i.e. belief in the universe or world as a god). There is a belief in the Planet as being the giver of life through the Lifestream and as a sentinent being in its own right (note the quote from Bugenhagen where the Planet screams as if to say 'I hurt' or 'I suffer'). Aeris, an Ancient, prays to the Planet so that it may stop Meteor, through Holy, and the WEAPONs appear when the Planet is in danger. There are numerous examples of belief in the Planet as being a tremendously powerful sentinent being with its own will, hence I'd say FFVII has a broadly pantheistic worldview. However, someone who knows more about pantheism can elaborate there.


FFVIII - The characters don't generally seem to believe in an afterlife. Squall seems very afraid of dying because then he will be only "other people's memories."

FFIX - The characters express that they have souls, but have a nebulous concept of an afterlife at best. No formal religious system, except maybe the monks at the Mount Gulug.

I agree here. FFVIII basically doesn't mention religion, while FFIX seems to have very little appreciation for it, except for a very few people such as Garland and Kuja. And IX's religious system is very vague. All we know is that the crystal is the giver of life. This is also apparently unrelated to the Genomes and Black Mages, which are 'scientific' things without souls created by Garland and Kuja respectively. As for the souls, not much is said about their origins or ultimate fate.


FFX - The big one. The characters topple a corrupt "religious" system. In the process, they learn more about themselves and the world they live in.

Yeah, FFX hardly makes any pretentions about its religion because it is so prominent. It's clear that Square were trying to make a point with their message here and although I disagree with their overall sentiment they do bring up some good points, at least in terms of how having power can turn a religious organisation corrupt. They clearly intended a parallel with one of the major monotheistic religions, probably Christianity and specifically, the Catholic Church.


FFXII - The characters end up a toppling a group of powerful beings claiming to be "gods."

To be honest, I don't regard the Occurians as being part of any religion because unlike the Kiltias they don't have any major popular following, although their existence is known by most citizens of Ivalice. I'd liken them more to demi-gods or angels, personally. Also, as I noted in my rumble, there's something about Venat that's similar to the Christian story of Lucifer in that both are 'fallen angels'. Another similarity is with with the tale of a Greek god whose name eludes me, who stole fire from the gods and gave it to the humans. (remember Cid's line: 'the reins of history back in the hands of man')


All in all, some of the Final Fantasy religious worldviews seem to be very much in line with my own, which, as I mentioned in the religion thread a while back, are atheistic/agnostic at best.

Again I would dispute that with the examples that I've cited. In FFVIII, there is no religion, but in others at least some form of spirituality or organised religion is present. Really, only FFVIII really has no religion per se, although there is some creation-related mythology about (remember Hyne, the first sorceress, and the whole tale about how the humans rebelled against her which you can learn about in Balamb, iirc).

In FFIX, I feel like there was potential for a religious system but they just decided not to devote too much time to it.


As I mentioned in that thread also, she's recently turned more toward the Christian church. I've noticed her views evolve more and more towards what I'm coming to thing of as the "Christian party-line" -- a growing intolerance of homosexuals / near-homophobia, an annoying tendency to ascribe all great things to the mystical work of Jesus, hypocritical views regarding anyone who takes a negative attitude towards Christmas (this is from a woman who as recently as a couple years ago barely wanted a tree), etc. etc. But enough about my mom. Thoughts? Comments? Agreement? Analysis? Rebuttal?

I would disagree with your view of Christianity and especially of Christianity as advocating homophobia but that's already been done in the GD religion thread, where TK practically posted an essay on it. The ascribing great works to Jesus/God is true of all Christians, but I fail to see how that does any harm, and shouldn't come between you and your mother. Just agree to disagree on it.

Ceidwad, despite our philosophical differences, I believe you have made some good points. However, I'm still not sure I concede the point entirely. Even in the ones where mentioned that there is a form of organized religion, it is not generally widely practiced among the populace. The follows of the Gran Kiltias were a very limited sect, and even the whole "in the name of the Father" thing is questionable at best. And for the rest of them, if there is a religious-type belief that is held, it's still not an organized religion. Good point about Hyne in relation to Final Fantasy VIII. Oh, and the Greek god who stole fire? I think, offhand, that was Prometheus.

Oh, and about playing KHII before Kingdom Hearts -- highly questionable at best. I really don't recommend it. You will not be able to understand most of the finer points of the game.



but I fail to see how that does any harm, and shouldn't come between you and your mother. Just agree to disagree on it.
The problem is when they start going on and on about it all the time. I mean, if that's what they want, it's fine, but if I wanted to hear it, I'd either start a discussion about it (like I did here, so it's fine here), or I'd go to the Church. But no, many Christians seem to feel the need to go on, on and on about it all the time. And if you want my opinion on Christian pop music, it's in that thread. Oh, and there's this guy I know, who actually shouts in public "Get your life right with Christ before it's too late." Too late for what?

Agree to disagree? That would work, if the person you're dealing with is rational, but my mom generally does not operate in a rational manner. In fact, from what I can tell, she's apparently fallen in with a very radical version of Christianity. She seems to be fond of the works of Joyce Meyer, a woman who, from what I can tell, is apparently a shuckster not even liked by many in the faith, who trades on people's desire for religious knowledge and advice to make a fortune.


For an example, well see the first post. It was full of win, but it can't be attributed to Jesus, because, well, why would he allow it?


Oh, and riddle me this. Do you know whose work my screenname is a reference to (hint: it's not James Bond), and if so, do you know what his views on religion were?

Ceidwad, despite our philosophical differences, I believe you have made some good points. However, I'm still not sure I concede the point entirely. Even in the ones where mentioned that there is a form of organized religion, it is not generally widely practiced among the populace. The follows of the Gran Kiltias were a very limited sect, and even the whole "in the name of the Father" thing is questionable at best. And for the rest of them, if there is a religious-type belief that is held, it's still not an organized religion. Good point about Hyne in relation to Final Fantasy VIII. Oh, and the Greek god who stole fire? I think, offhand, that was Prometheus.

I largely agree with what you say here. There is no organized religion in the majority of the games, though I believe the Kiltias to be an organized religion, since they actively collect funds (or are given them by the Empire, I'm not totally sure) to help the refugees in the name of their religion, which makes it by definition organized. In the others, although there is no organized religion, there are widely-held views, such as the pantheistic views held by the people of Cosmo Canyon, that might as well be organized religion. The only thing seperating the believers of Bugenhagen's theology from organized religion is a central point through which those beliefs may be funded.

Furthermore, about the Kiltias. They expressly believe in a paternal god, much like the Christian one. It is not only in the wedding scene that 'the Father' is mentioned. It is also mentioned by any number of Kiltia on Mt. Bur Omisace. I don't see how it's questionable. Sure, it's not the predominant religion on the game, but it certainly exists.

Also, Prometheus! Thank you. It was on the tip of my tongue, but I could not quite remember it.

I've PMed you my response to the rest of your post, as it's pretty long-winded and off-topic.

I don't remember the Kiltias talking about the Father - I think they referred to the Light a lot, though...

There's certainly one standing outside the Stilshrine of Miriam that says 'Graceful and Merciful Father watch over you' or something like that.

I can't exactly prove this; you'll just have to take my word.

Faram/Kiltias and St. Ajora/Glabados have big roles in Ivalice, I don't remember seeing any religious things in other FF's, though I wasn't necessarily looking for any. Xenogears/saga, is chock full of them as well, but yeah the first two.

Oh yeah. That reminds me of another similarity between Christianity and the Kiltian religion - the 'Faram' is used in the same way as the Christian 'Amen'.

I read somewhere that 'Faram' was supposed to be the "God" in Ivalice religion or something, and Ajora was supposed to be "God's Son/Daughter/Hermaphrodite/whatever".

Ceid, just so you know, I'm not ignoring you, I've just had no time to respond to your message yet.


I'm currently playing XII -- I'll keep my eyes and ears open.

Hmm...

Ivalice is kind of weird with its religions and deities. We have the Kiltias, but the notes in the Bestiary suggest that there are more heavenly beings, whether or not they're actively worshipped.

We know through the story that the Occurrians are suggested to be the gods of Ivalice, who govern over it and manipulate the path that people take through the use of Nethicite, or did, until

*spoilers*









































Reddas shattered the Suncryst, destroying the source of Nethicite.












































*spoilers end*
The Bestiary also suggests that either the Occurrians, or another group of gods, created the Espers. Each one was created to do a certain job, but for one reason or another, they betrayed their masters (except Zodiark, who was purposely trapped in the form of an infant dragon and isolated so that he would never grow strong enough to overthrow the gods). During this revolt, two of the Espers took hostages, who they still bind to them to this day.

Mateus bound an ice goddess to himself, using her as a living shield during the Revolt of the Espers, while Zalera took a priestess as a focus to summon spirits of death for his use. Oddly enough, when the two of them were defeated, they still kept their hostages with them.

Additionally, if I recall correctly, Yiazmat, the final mark, is supposed to be the god of dragons. This would suggest that the dragons worship Yiazmat (then again, whether Yiazmat was actually a god, or just a very old, powerful dragon could be argued, I suppose).

Then there's the case of the Entites. Every one is described to be the gods' vengeance against humanity for abusing the gifts of the elements, incarnated into semi-living forms. I haven't played Final Fantasy XII in a while, so I forget the reason behind each of their creations, but I do remember a couple of them...
Salamand Entites were created to punish humanity for using fire for the sake of warfare.
Leamonde Entites were created because humanity used darkness to hide their sins.
And I forget why the gods created the other six...

Religion seems pretty complex in Ivalice, if I understand this correctly. Then again, a fair bit of Ivalice's religion seems to be in the background, except for the Kiltias.

Oh, and on the case of Faram, I think it was mentioned that Faram is the name of the Kiltias god, as well as the term they use where Christians use "amen". In the way that "amen" translates roughly as "may it be done", Faram would be spoken to draw the attention of Faram to the prayer given.

You can talk spoilers here if you want without posting a whole big block of spoiler space. We've already revealed like a dozen spoilers anyway.

Seth Silver, that's an excellent post. I have found references to what you speak of in the Bestiary notes too, but I didn't post it in my original post in this threa as I wasn't entirely sure, since some parts of my bestiary aren't full and I haven't done the latter hunts (and probably won't, at least not Yiazmat anyway). Also, it was pretty long as it was.

I don't really want to base my beliefs about life and there after on video games. You could say I'm a Christian but recently I've been having alot of trouble believing all the stuff Christianity says. It tends to contradict itself multiple times but I don't really want to list them all. I've asked alot of bible edjucated people about things I don't understand in this world the can explain alot of them using the Bible, but whenever they cannot they always say the same thing, God is to complicated for us to understand sometimes so we need to just believe in him. I have a hard time believing this although its a good cover up for not knowing.

For the afterlife I have absolutely no fucking clue. I think there is one but how you get there or who goes there I don't know. I don't really care as long as I get there.

Oh yeah. I wouldn't advocate using only video game knowledge for making the choice. Bad, bad, bad idea.

What's really bizarre is that Mateus was all female in the FFTA version, being that it did come out before FFXII and all, but its weird that the two look nothing alike. In fact, Adramelech, and Famfrit are the only two totema that look identical to their FFTA versions.

EDIT: Also I forgot about Ultima...

So today in psychology my teacher was talking about sensation and perception. Sensation is the world around you, pretty much raw data coming in from your sensory neurons, and perception is how your brain interprets this raw data coming in from your sensory neurons, which is affected by many different things. But the most important part of this is the in between area called transduction. Transduction is transformation of energy from one form to another, pretty much the energy you get from your sensory neurons is transformed into electrochemical energy which is the language of the brain.

Anyways after explaining this she brought up a philosophical question: What do we not perceive? By this I mean we get sensations from all five senses touch, taste, hearing, sight, and smell, but what about ESP or the sixth sense? The most seen examples of the sixth sense are Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Precognition, and Psycho kinesis. I�m saying this to ask you if you think if there are other things in this world other than the things we perceive (touch, taste, sound, smell, sight).

Maybe there is something or things out there in this world or universe that we don�t know about or are vaguely aware of because of psychics that actually get it right, or twins that accidentally communicate from many states away. Or in the Law of Attraction where people believe you can use your thoughts to focus on something you want and you will get it depending on whether you want it enough.

One idea I thought of was that this world is created by something similar to FF7�s Lifestream, There are these forces in the universe that created the world or were created by someone that are constantly existing everywhere that we can control or perceive, including the five senses. For telepathy the �lifestream� would act as a medium from one conscience to another.

Another idea I thought of was that different ESP senses are perceived with different brain waves. Like sound humans can perceive between 20-20,000 hertz and for sight we can only perceive the visible spectrum. I�m saying that there might be other senses for different ESP abilities that our brains cannot perceive, unless someone accidentally or on purpose is able to perceive and read another�s mind. I don�t know what you would call this energy, maybe brainwaves, nor if we even have the organs that have the ability to perceive these �brainwaves.�

Anyways these are my new thoughts. Maybe I should have started a new thread for this but I decided to put it under here because I wanted you to see it Agent, so hopefully you can tell me what you think of this amazingly long post.

Did I write this all for nothing? Someone please please comment...


sry agent for the double post

No, it's just me having sort of read the long-winded post, deciding to put off replying to it until later, and then completely forgetting about it. I'll give it a more thorough look soon and then post a proper response.

Thank you, I very much look forward to reading it.

All right, here we go...

To answer your basic question... my general sentiment is yes. Yes, I do believe that there are any of a number of forces that we don't perceive by normal senses. And yes, I do also believe that it is at least very possible that at least some of the psychics may be right, to some degree, because there seems to be such a large body of evidence out there, and I also believe in certain cases that certain individuals are decidedly not liars.

As for the twin bond -- yes, it's a very interesting phenomenon. Something definitely worth looking into more.

Is there a name for these beliefs? Or is it just called believing in the supernatural.

As for the twin bond -- yes, it's a very interesting phenomenon. Something definitely worth looking into more.

It's funny that the 'twin bond' has been mentioned and being a twin myself I can safely tell you that there is no 'twin bond' just coincidences and liars that want attention. This happened in a religious discussion I had before, a christian was arguing with me and said something like "what about the twin bond, science can't explain that!" I just laughed at him and told him that I was a twin and had never had any supernatural things happen, that made him go silent.

Fraternal twin, or identical?

Identical.

Can't say, then. Other than that it seems like you're using a flawed pattern of logic, the name of which escapes me at the moment. The flaw being assuming that just because you're part of a particular group a situation could apply to, yet it doesn't apply to you, that it must not exist at all.


Or, perhaps, that you're reacting to a stereotype. That you've encountered people who've expected you to have some sort of power like that, because you're an identical twin.

Or, perhaps, that you're reacting to a stereotype. That you've encountered people who've expected you to have some sort of power like that, because you're an identical twin.

Maybe I am, I get really pissed off when people are like "do you feel pain when your brother does?" or "can you speak to each other through your minds" It gets really irritating. Seriously there is no such thing as a twin bond, there have been experiments that show it isn't true and people that say they have it are looking for attention.

I still think something like that is out there. Maybe not all identical twins are able to perceive the (Ill shall call it) Universal Energy transmitted from the other, or maybe not all twins send the energy. Im not arguing with you its just a thought.

It could be but I think that it's unlikely.