Okay, maybe not everyone but I noticed an unusual amount of haters here. Before I even start my little rant, I just want to say this isn't even my favorite FF.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and yes this game is overrated. Although, I think it is absolutely ridiculous that some find this game never should have been made, is terrible, and is one of the worst FF's. In terms of financial success, I think this one is right at the top there. There is no disputing how this game pretty much popularized the entire RPG genre of games. There is no disputing that this is one of the most popular Final Fantasy's, either. The reason why this game is overrated is because many of us STARTED with this game as our first RPG. Rightfully so, too...so, that's why there's so much nostalgia now associated with this(which is why everyone wants a damn remake). This game has one of the better starts to a video game I have ever played. Right away, I was hooked. They don't shove a tutorial right down your throat, and I find those pretty damn boring. FFIX, which is my favorite FF, starts out pretty damn slow. You either have to have some real good patience with FFIX, or have played an RPG before to know that it's gonna pick up the pace.

If I was trying to persuade a friend to get into RPG's(that never played one before), this would be the game I would tell them to play. It's really a TERRIFIC starting RPG(IMO, the best). At the time, you rarely saw music like this in a video game(and yeah, the music isn't even that great...for today's standards of video games). With the exception of its predecessor(FFVI), it was rare to hear music like this back in '97 in a game. The characters were so damn memorable and loveable, that it was hard not to grow attached to these people, and almost even feel for them and their situations. Yeah, the story is cliche'd, but there are some HUGE plot twists to keep you guessing what's next.

I don't understand how anyone could hate this game. You at least have to appreciate what it did for RPG's in general(and that was make them more popular). You can hate the game, but I think it's impossible to not respect what it did for RPG's in general.

Now, I know some vet of this place will come on in, and state how 'bad' this game is, and everybody else will follow suit. I know you want to stand out from the crowd and be different, but I'm a vet on a few different message boards and I have literally pushed my weight around...to the point where the stuff I argue about is flawed, yet nobody seems to notice(they'll just agree with everything I say).

tl;dr. Hating FFVII has become somewhat of a trend around here, even though some of us don't follow it. Much the same with FFX-2. Personally I generally liked FFVII, but it had it's flaws, but I'll let someone else rant about that. I disagree with you on the music part though, I found it absolutely loveable. Perhaps only beaten by the FFIX soundtrack.

Not this crap again.

Eh, I don't think this one is as bad as some we've seen. He still has the fanboy goggles on, but he looks reasonable enough to be able to take them off. Of course, I don't care enough at the moment to lecture on the game's faults and how it started some awful trends that plague gaming to this day.

Eh, I don't think this one is as bad as some we've seen. He still has the fanboy goggles on, but he looks reasonable enough to be able to take them off. Of course, I don't care enough at the moment to lecture on the game's faults and how it started some awful trends that plague gaming to this day.

Fanboy goggles? I came in and told you right off the bat this game was overrated, and that FFIX was my favorite Final Fantasy. Yeah, this game has faults, and there isn't a game on this earth that doesn't. Awful trends? Please elaborate. I bet the RPG market wouldn't be so popular as it is right now if it wasn't for this game. You seem like quite the joke, sir. ;)

What did you expect me to respond with? To simply swallow your "I don't care at the moment to explain" bs? Try again. :)

Not this crap again.

You know, believe it or not, I was actually being kind of nice to you. But I guess you wouldn't know that, being totally unfamiliar with the community. Of course, on the other hand, being unfamiliar with the place, if you had any sense at all, you would have considered the idea that maybe, just maybe, WE KNOW MORE THAN YOU.


Fanboy goggles? I came in and told you right off the bat this game was overrated, and that FFIX was my favorite Final Fantasy.

So what? That doesn't prove or disprove a thing about you. Lots of fankids try to cover up their bias with admissions of fault.


Yeah, this game has faults, and there isn't a game on this earth that doesn't.

In that case, I challenge you to find a single fault, just one glaring flaw, in Super Mario Brothers.


Awful trends? Please elaborate.

The first thing that comes to mind is the practice of burying stuff in a game so that most people will never be able to find its secrets without the use of a guide, effectively milking hapless gamers for everything they're worth. And coincidentally (yeah right) enough, FFVII was also the first game to have a strategy guide marketed aggressively alongside the game itself.


I bet the RPG market wouldn't be so popular as it is right now if it wasn't for this game.

If anything, this adventure game posing as something else only damaged the market for real role-playing games, but that's neither here nor there.

You're absolutely right about it popularizing the genre of Jap pseudo-RPG adventure games, but that came about as a result of the game being piss easy and marketed heavily in the mainstream, not as a result of actual quality.


You seem like quite the joke, sir. ;)

You don't know me very well.


What did you expect me to respond with? To simply swallow your "I don't care at the moment to explain" bs? Try again. :)

Actually, giving you the opportunity to drop the matter was more of a gift to you than anything else. Too bad you don't know me well enough to realize that I'm well-known for effectively debating gaming issues. In fact, it's safe to say that I'm the central figure on the anti-FFVII bandwagon, having been one of the first, and certainly the most effective and tireless participant in the ongoing debate.

If you want an actual debate on the merits/demerits of FFVII, I will engage you, but do not make the mistake of taking me lightly. This discussion bores me because I've won it so many times in the past, but I'm also well-practiced in shattering your ignorance-borne illusions of the game.

Not much point in me giving a detailed answer here, as I'll only be repeating stuff already said.

But the short version is I played through it and, while liking it to begin with, from my experience found it lacking in meeting reasonable expectations by the end. Good enough reason as any to be down on a game. Although, as I've mentioned in other threads before, I wouldn't go as far as to say I actually hate it.

meh. still a good game. fuck what everyone else says.

You know, believe it or not, I was actually being kind of nice to you. But I guess you wouldn't know that, being totally unfamiliar with the community.

Well geez, I'm sorry to have not taken your grace your majesty. Is this a message board, or some sort of kingdom? If I don't like something someone has said to me, I will let you know. And yes, of course this community knows more than I do, I'm only one person.

So what? That doesn't prove or disprove a thing about you. Lots of fankids try to cover up their bias with admissions of fault.

I'm gonna use your logic now. You don't know me. You called me a fanboy right from the get-go based on absolutely nothing. God forbid someone sticks up for FFVII, because if they do, they're automatically a fanboy. You jump to conclusions too soon, methinks.

In that case, I challenge you to find a single fault, just one glaring flaw, in Super Mario Brothers.

Too short; too easy. Yes, I grew up with this one.

The first thing that comes to mind is the practice of burying stuff in a game so that most people will never be able to find its secrets without the use of a guide, effectively milking hapless gamers for everything they're worth. And coincidentally (yeah right) enough, FFVII was also the first game to have a strategy guide marketed aggressively alongside the game itself.

I'm not going to sit here, and act like I'm superior and say "I found everything on my own", but the sidequests were optional. You did not have to breed chocobos to beat the game. You do realize that FFVII was going to be the first RPG for many, so it's understandable that they would market the guide even in their own instruction booklet. It's a business, they're going to suck the game dry no matter what. This game did not somehow create the trend of game guides. If you actually believe that, you are out your mind. Sounds like someone got suckered into actually buying one of those stupid Brady game guides(which contained some wrong information).

I remember playing SMB3 when it was new, and it wasn't easy to know where the whistles were, and all the other secrets. I had a friend who had the Nintendo Power mag, though. The fact of the matter is that there were games before this one that required outside help. I haven't even mentioned Zelda. It wasn't exactly easy to figure out all the secrets in that one either, without PURCHASING A NINTENDO POWER MAGAZINE(or at least had a friend who had it). Hmm...seems like other companies used this tactic too...way back in the 80's. Back then, we didn't even have the internet. Last I checked, the internet was running back in 1997. The original Zelda buried a lot of crap, too. Unless you actually just sat there burning every bush, and trying to bomb every wall that you see...you had no idea where the secrets were.

You're absolutely right about it popularizing the genre of Jap pseudo-RPG adventure games, but that came about as a result of the game being piss easy and marketed heavily in the mainstream, not as a result of actual quality.

I agree, FFVII is pretty damn easy. That's why I said it's a great starting RPG.

Actually, giving you the opportunity to drop the matter was more of a gift to you than anything else. Too bad you don't know me well enough to realize that I'm well-known for effectively debating gaming issues. In fact, it's safe to say that I'm the central figure on the anti-FFVII bandwagon, having been one of the first, and certainly the most effective and tireless participant in the ongoing debate.

You're right, I don't know you. That also means I'm going to treat you like I would treat anybody else. Just because you have X number of posts, or have been posting here since X year, I'm not going to treat you any differently. You're not an emperor, and I really don't give a **** how long you've been "owning" people on the subject of FFVII. Saying that, the game was a success for a reason. It was fun, and I know I'm not going to change your mind, but you should at least respect and not criticize others who may have enjoyed this game. I get the feeling that you think you're better than those who say this is their favorite Final Fantasy. There's no shame in it. Not everybody you encounter on this earth is going to think like you, and fortunately for the sake of humanity, that is a good thing.

I don't know about you, but I hate making enemies even if it's on the internet. The thing is, you come off very high and mighty and act like your own crap doesn't stink. It's that reason why I got a little offended and retaliated right away. Just because you have a reputation for being a vet and an owner of "FVII fanboys" doesn't mean you can treat people like absolute crap.

I agre wit u, Prak tha prik doest liv i a kingdom, he iz a bstrd t evry1 nd shuld be b7 4evr, stp tratin ppl lik crp u fgt.

This was my first RPG and I love it. There have been others that are better, but I still enjoy this game and theres no reason to rip on it just because you don't like it.

basically I agree with garlic powder

Oh I new on this site too

theres no reason to rip on it just because you don't like it.


-.- you know if people don't like something, they are pretty likely to rip on it.

Well geez, I'm sorry to have not taken your grace your majesty. Is this a message board, or some sort of kingdom? If I don't like something someone has said to me, I will let you know. And yes, of course this community knows more than I do, I'm only one person.

If you'll admit that the collective knowledge of the community is greater than your own, why do you insist on claiming that the community is wrong for ragging on FFVII as much as we do? That is actually a rhetorical question. There is no correct answer that will not make you look dumb, so I advise you to leave it alone.


I'm gonna use your logic now. You don't know me. You called me a fanboy right from the get-go based on absolutely nothing. God forbid someone sticks up for FFVII, because if they do, they're automatically a fanboy. You jump to conclusions too soon, methinks.

I called you a fanboy because you felt like just had to come in here and stick up for the game in a community full of people you don't know who don't care about you and are not likely at all to listen to you. You blathered about what it did for RPGs and garbage like that that has nothing to do with the game's actual quality, made silly and easily disprovable claims about the characters and supposed plot twists in the game, and you tossed in mention of how much you'd like a remake.

If it looks like a fanboy, talks like a fanboy, and reacts venomously to the merest hint of criticism like a fanboy, it's a fanboy.


Too short; too easy. Yes, I grew up with this one.

You must be fucking kidding. I am not even going to dignify this with a serious response. Someone else can feel free to pick up the slack here and insult him for this claim though.


I'm not going to sit here, and act like I'm superior and say "I found everything on my own", but the sidequests were optional. You did not have to breed chocobos to beat the game.

No, but you did have to do it to acquire the most powerful summon. You also had to do some pretty silly things to get some of the most powerful weapons, and know exactly what to say to the optional characters to get them to join, etc. These are things that require either a massive amount of trial and error or are just buried too deeply to even hope to accomplish without a guide.


You do realize that FFVII was going to be the first RPG for many, so it's understandable that they would market the guide even in their own instruction booklet.

Squaresoft didn't know that when they developed it. Besides, introductory level games typically have a far simpler design than most other games in their genres.


It's a business, they're going to suck the game dry no matter what. This game did not somehow create the trend of game guides. If you actually believe that, you are out your mind.

Of course I don't believe it was the first game to have guide or something silly like that. However, it was the game that cemented the idea in a great many people's heads that you needed a guide to play games.


I remember playing SMB3 when it was new, and it wasn't easy to know where the whistles were, and all the other secrets. I had a friend who had the Nintendo Power mag, though. The fact of the matter is that there were games before this one that required outside help.

Using warp whistles in SMB3 was basically equal to a cheat code. It was never meant to be a part of the core gameplay mechanic - it is simply a sanctioned exploit, similar in nature to infinite ammo codes in shooters or the famous Konami code - as opposed to those elements in FFVII and many subsequent games that tie directly into the core gameplay.


The original Zelda buried a lot of crap, too. Unless you actually just sat there burning every bush, and trying to bomb every wall that you see...you had no idea where the secrets were.

True enough, and I've griped about that also. However, it is impossible to deny, at least with any sense of reason, that FFVII and its lucrative strategy guide sales were directly related to the popularization of that despicable tactic among developers/publishers.


I agree, FFVII is pretty damn easy. That's why I said it's a great starting RPG.

No comment here, as there is no future in arguing here for either of us. I'll just make my standard comment about the game not really being an RPG and misrepresenting the genre to countless people who weren't familiar with it in the first place.

You're right, I don't know you. That also means I'm going to treat you like I would treat anybody else. Just because you have X number of posts, or have been posting here since X year, I'm not going to treat you any differently. You're not an emperor, and I really don't give a **** how long you've been "owning" people on the subject of FFVII.[/quote]

I never said you should care. I was just giving you an idea of what kind of person you're dealing with and what would be required of you to keep pace. You're not doing a very good job so far, I'm afraid.


Saying that, the game was a success for a reason.

Yes, but not the ones you want to believe. It success is based on two factors:

One is the hype machine. The game was advertised heavily on tv, and the ads generally only showed the eye-popping FMV scenes.

Two is word of mouth. A lot of people who had never owned a game console before bought a PS1, and those people were indoctrinated early on with the notion that games are more fun when they're easy. They blew through the game, got caught up in the shallow story and fell into the trap of believing the pathetic characters actually had depth due to the avatar effect, and went around telling other people who wouldn't know better how great it was.


It was fun

Entirely subjective. Therefore, discounted.


and I know I'm not going to change your mind, but you should at least respect and not criticize others who may have enjoyed this game. I get the feeling that you think you're better than those who say this is their favorite Final Fantasy. There's no shame in it. Not everybody you encounter on this earth is going to think like you, and fortunately for the sake of humanity, that is a good thing.

I don't criticize people for liking the game. I criticize them for not knowing what they're talking about. And for your information, a good many of my favorite people here like the game, and I even enjoyed most of the time I spent playing it, although it made me want to vomit by the time I reached the end.


I don't know about you, but I hate making enemies even if it's on the internet.

I don't make myself anyone's enemy or regard anyone else as an enemy. If someone wants to regard me as an enemy, that's their prerogative, and I'll simply respond in kind to their aggressive actions.


The thing is, you come off very high and mighty and act like your own crap doesn't stink.

That's called being self-confident. Once upon a time, when civilization was more sane, it was regarded as a good thing.


It's that reason why I got a little offended and retaliated right away. Just because you have a reputation for being a vet and an owner of "FVII fanboys" doesn't mean you can treat people like absolute crap.

I give people nothing more or less than what I think they've earned. If you make coherent and well-reasoned points, I will be very likely to reply in an inoffensive manner, even if I disagree.

Perhaps if you had a bit more self-confidence of your own, you wouldn't become defensive at the drop of a hat.


This was my first RPG and I love it. There have been others that are better, but I still enjoy this game and theres no reason to rip on it just because you don't like it.

basically I agree with garlic powder

Oh I new on this site too

You are the worst sort of moronic fanboy. Fuck off and die in a fire.

This was my first RPG and I love it. There have been others that are better, but I still enjoy this game and theres no reason to rip on it just because you don't like it.

basically I agree with garlic powder

Oh I new on this site too

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Crap like this is the answer to the question in the thread title.

*FFVII Spoilers*





If you'll admit that the collective knowledge of the community is greater than your own, why do you insist on claiming that the community is wrong for ragging on FFVII as much as we do? That is actually a rhetorical question. There is no correct answer that will not make you look dumb, so I advise you to leave it alone.



I was only targeting a few users on here, you being one of them. I never called out the ENTIRE community, but merely those that believe this game should have never been. Oh noes, I didn't leave it alone, I must look dumb now. :(



I called you a fanboy because you felt like just had to come in here and stick up for the game in a community full of people you don't know who don't care about you and are not likely at all to listen to you. You blathered about what it did for RPGs and garbage like that that has nothing to do with the game's actual quality, made silly and easily disprovable claims about the characters and supposed plot twists in the game, and you tossed in mention of how much you'd like a remake.

Again, I was only targeting certain users who make it a point that if others don't share their same opinions, they are clearly not as intelligent as they are(like yourself). I never said this game was the greatest ever, that is why I'm not ranting about its quality. I merely said it was fun, and enjoyable. There are plot twists in FFVII, and you must be pretty ignorant if you don't believe so. I mentioned how much I want a remake? All I simply stated was the reason why everyone wants a remake is because of the nostalgia factor(not because of how 'great' the game is). Quit putting words in my mouth, here.


If it looks like a fanboy, talks like a fanboy, and reacts venomously to the merest hint of criticism like a fanboy, it's a fanboy.

Venomously, huh? You're the one retaliating like a snake right now. I already have seemed to hit a nerve with you...guess there is absolutely nothing good that has come from this game at all, huh? C'mon, now.




You must be fucking kidding. I am not even going to dignify this with a serious response. Someone else can feel free to pick up the slack here and insult him for this claim though.

I have nothing against the original SMB, as it is one of my favorites of all time. You asked a question, and I answered it. Have you played the REAL version of Super Mario Bros 2?(J) That felt like a real Mario game. It had about 20-30 more levels, and even a secret world. Not to mention ten times as hard. While the original Mario Bros will always hold a spot in my heart, but the second one is really what the first one should have been(maybe not as hard, but with a lot to offer after the game was over). Zelda had a second quest, why didn't Mario? Mario2 did, though(getting to the secret levels by beating the main game like nine times without warps). There's your flaw.


No, but you did have to do it to acquire the most powerful summon. You also had to do some pretty silly things to get some of the most powerful weapons, and know exactly what to say to the optional characters to get them to join, etc. These are things that require either a massive amount of trial and error or are just buried too deeply to even hope to accomplish without a guide.

KOTR was simply a summon that was there for bragging rights. You do not need it to defeat either of the weapons, or beat Sephiroth. If I recall, the Chocobo Sage in the northern continent pretty much told you how to breed a Gold one starting from regular. You didn't need the guide. A woman in the chocobo stables even records everything the forgetful Sage says, so you have no excuse. Okay, you mention the most powerful weapons...but if one doesn't even have the guide, he/she might not even know they exist. You know, a lot of these "deep" items that were difficult to find, were actually fun for some of us. Some gamers, including myself, like the exploration factor.

The game hints at certain things to help you obtain these items. One from the top of my head would have to be Tifa's ultimate weapon. There's a guy standing outside Midgar, saying he dropped the key at some excavation site. Seeing as there's only one excavation site in the whole damn game, it's not hard to realize you need to head to Bone Village. It may take some time to find the damn thing, but it's not like the search costs a lot of gil. Once you go in and EXPLORE Midgar again, you're bound to go back into that item store which served no purpose before, and find Tifa's weapon. Isn't Cloud's weapon obtained by defeating that dragon? Who the hell is just going to leave that dragon there? Barrett's ultimate weapon is a little absurd, but if you weren't using him on your return to Midgar, there's no reason why you'd need his ultimate weapon anyway.

You want to complain about obtaining Vincent and Yuffie? If you searched the Shinra mansion, it wasn't hard to figure out the combination for the safe. Vincent you can definitely get no matter what. You can make all the wrong decisions, but always go back to his casket and simply choose the other one. Yuffie's is the same way, cept she was obviously gonna be a little harder to find. This is why they were optional characters, they were meant to be difficult to join your group. Nothing is supposed to be a cakewalk, here. Nothing sounds like a 'massive' amount of trial and error here.




Of course I don't believe it was the first game to have guide or something silly like that. However, it was the game that cemented the idea in a great many people's heads that you needed a guide to play games.

Proof? This is more or less your theory. If someone wants to buy a game guide, that is their prerogative. It really depends on the gamer who is purchasing the game. We aren't idiots, any person with common sense knows that a game guide will completely ruin the game. Just the very idea that you believe that this game started the notion of "game + guide" is just absurd. I feel like I'm arguing with an opinion of yours here.



True enough, and I've griped about that also. However, it is impossible to deny, at least with any sense of reason, that FFVII and its lucrative strategy guide sales were directly related to the popularization of that despicable tactic among developers/publishers.

Okay, and this is why you hate FFVII? <_<
Yeah, it was a low blow, but who really cares? Anybody with half a brain and internet could have easily found all the secrets online. Squaresoft didn't force anybody to buy the guide. If someone bought the guide, they obviously enjoyed the game, and really wanted to beat it 100%.




No comment here, as there is no future in arguing here for either of us. I'll just make my standard comment about the game not really being an RPG and misrepresenting the genre to countless people who weren't familiar with it in the first place.

Not really being an RPG? That comment is just stupid. Last I checked, you were playing as the role of Cloud, and all the other characters. It's a role playing game, whether you like it or not. Misrepresenting the genre? Oh, man. If it wasn't for this game I know for a fact I never would have played Xenosaga, Xenogears, Elder Scrolls, and the other FF's. You're wrong. I'm sorry if you don't like this game, but it's asinine to argue that it isn't a real RPG.



I never said you should care. I was just giving you an idea of what kind of person you're dealing with and what would be required of you to keep pace. You're not doing a very good job so far, I'm afraid.

I think I'm doing a great job, otherwise you wouldn't even be responding back to me. I've also clearly gotten you a little upset, too. ;)




Yes, but not the ones you want to believe. It success is based on two factors:

One is the hype machine. The game was advertised heavily on tv, and the ads generally only showed the eye-popping FMV scenes.

Two is word of mouth. A lot of people who had never owned a game console before bought a PS1, and those people were indoctrinated early on with the notion that games are more fun when they're easy. They blew through the game, got caught up in the shallow story and fell into the trap of believing the pathetic characters actually had depth due to the avatar effect, and went around telling other people who wouldn't know better how great it was.



Entirely subjective. Therefore, discounted.

Boy, a company trying to sell their game? How dare they?! I do believe I also saw commercials for FFVIII and FFIX, and I saw nothing but the FMV cutscenes. Who the hell wants to show off their weakest graphics on TV? Basically, people enjoyed the game, and even though it was easy, they were entitled to brag about the game because they enjoyed it. I don't see anything wrong with that. For those of us who started with FFVII, this wasn't that shallow, so you have to understand. Looking back, yeah it's a shallow story, but I can totally understand why people thought it was great. Other games don't get popular by word of mouth and hype? I'm confused here.




I don't criticize people for liking the game. I criticize them for not knowing what they're talking about. And for your information, a good many of my favorite people here like the game, and I even enjoyed most of the time I spent playing it, although it made me want to vomit by the time I reached the end.

Scroll down a little, I believe you told a guy to die and burn in a fire because he enjoyed the game. Way to contradict yourself there.




I don't make myself anyone's enemy or regard anyone else as an enemy. If someone wants to regard me as an enemy, that's their prerogative, and I'll simply respond in kind to their aggressive actions.

You don't make yourself anyone's enemy, huh? I can tell you right now that your attitude have already made me your new enemy. :)
But I'm not gonna tell you to die in a fire though, that's a bit over the line.


That's called being self-confident. Once upon a time, when civilization was more sane, it was regarded as a good thing.

I just love how you justify your negative qualities.




I give people nothing more or less than what I think they've earned. If you make coherent and well-reasoned points, I will be very likely to reply in an inoffensive manner, even if I disagree.

Perhaps if you had a bit more self-confidence of your own, you wouldn't become defensive at the drop of a hat.

I'm not defensive, you are. I already know I'm beating you in this little debate we got going here, and there is little you can say to convince me otherwise.




You are the worst sort of moronic fanboy. Fuck off and die in a fire.

Anger management issues, much? This is just ridiculous. It's people like you who deserve to be banned from message boards. It's also people like you who keep QUALITY new users from signing up on the message boards. Here we have a guy who just says he enjoyed FFVII and stated his opinion, and you completely blow up in his face. That guy did not deserve what you just said, and it was very cruel and inappropriate. I'm just glad you aren't in charge of this message board, because I doubt there'd be many new users. I'm sure that makes two new users who have just joined this site get a very bad first impression of the fan-base around here(me and the guy you told to die in a fire). Yep, you're a real nice guy who doesn't provoke people to become angry at you, indeed. -_-

Scroll down a little, I believe you told a guy to die and burn in a fire because he enjoyed the game.

No, the person in question was being a moronic FFVII fanboy, it is generally frowned upon by those who post in here, hence Prak's response


It's people like you who deserve to be banned from message boards.

I think you will find that people that actually know Prak would disagree with you.




Here we have a guy who acted like a moronic fanboy
That guy deserved what you just said

Fix'd :smrt:



Yep, you're a real nice guy who doesn't provoke people to become angry at you, indeed. -_-

Prak is actually a nice guy, I have gotten to know him, you have not.


I can tell you right now that your attitude have already made me your new enemy

Hahahaha.

Hahahaha wow.

No, the person in question was being a moronic FFVII fanboy, it is generally frowned upon by those who post in here, hence Prak's response



I think you will find that people that actually know Prak would disagree with you.





Fix'd :smrt:




Prak is actually a nice guy, I have gotten to know him, you have not.



Hahahaha.

How was that guy being a moronic fanboy? He simply stated he enjoyed FFVII, and in his opinion you shouldn't 'rip' on it if you don't like it. To me, you guys just look for arguments. I could understand, maybe, if he said "FFVII > ALL NO QUESTIONS" Then yeah, that's a fanboy.

This place is crazy. Prak = nice? I wouldn't to get to know that guy if he was the last person alive on earth. This is just crazy, and I know you're trying to be funny Master, and I admit you made me smile...
Just the whole damn thing is crazy...:( That guy did nothing wrong.

I believe what he said was: "but I still enjoy this game and theres no reason to rip on it just because you don't like it." And hence, the designation as a moronic fanboy, because Prak does not rip on the game just because he doesn't like it.

No I'm being serious, Prak is actually a nice guy to those who he doesn't see as moronic.

Basically, he's a fanboy because he came rushing to the games defence, but all he did was state he loved the game and that we shoudn't bitch about what we don't like, which is pretty stupid.

I was only targeting a few users on here, you being one of them. I never called out the ENTIRE community, but merely those that believe this game should have never been. Oh noes, I didn't leave it alone, I must look dumb now. :(

First of all, very few people have ever said that the game never should have existed. I certainly haven't. I dislike it a great deal, but simply by existing, it has given me a great deal of amusement in the form of idiotic fanboys.


Again, I was only targeting certain users who make it a point that if others don't share their same opinions, they are clearly not as intelligent as they are(like yourself). I never said this game was the greatest ever, that is why I'm not ranting about its quality. I merely said it was fun, and enjoyable.

I don't deal in opinions. At the root of their nature, opinions are usually distortions or denials of hard facts, and occasionally match the facts, but only by sheer chance.


There are plot twists in FFVII, and you must be pretty ignorant if you don't believe so.

Okay, back that up. Detail some plot twists in the game. Keep in mind that a proper plot twist must alter the context and interpretation of a previous scene. For example, the death of Aeris was foreshadowed and followed a natural progression of events without affecting your outlook on previous events in any way. Therefore, it is not a plot twist.


I mentioned how much I want a remake? All I simply stated was the reason why everyone wants a remake is because of the nostalgia factor(not because of how 'great' the game is). Quit putting words in my mouth, here.

People who are nostalgic play the original game. A remake would be a new game entirely. It's like in movies; you would never even consider watching a remake of an old movie simply out of nostalgia for its original version.


Venomously, huh? You're the one retaliating like a snake right now. I already have seemed to hit a nerve with you...guess there is absolutely nothing good that has come from this game at all, huh? C'mon, now.

My fangs were never hidden in the first place. Don't you understand by now that this is sport for me?


I have nothing against the original SMB, as it is one of my favorites of all time. You asked a question, and I answered it. Have you played the REAL version of Super Mario Bros 2?(J) That felt like a real Mario game. It had about 20-30 more levels, and even a secret world. Not to mention ten times as hard. While the original Mario Bros will always hold a spot in my heart, but the second one is really what the first one should have been(maybe not as hard, but with a lot to offer after the game was over). Zelda had a second quest, why didn't Mario? Mario2 did, though(getting to the secret levels by beating the main game like nine times without warps). There's your flaw.

So SMB was flawed for not being the first game to do a few things? Didn't it do enough things for the first time already? One game can only innovate so much. But we'll let the peanut gallery decide if your assertion about that being a flaw is justifiable or not. Everyone chime in please.


KOTR was simply a summon that was there for bragging rights. You do not need it to defeat either of the weapons, or beat Sephiroth. If I recall, the Chocobo Sage in the northern continent pretty much told you how to breed a Gold one starting from regular. You didn't need the guide. A woman in the chocobo stables even records everything the forgetful Sage says, so you have no excuse. Okay, you mention the most powerful weapons...but if one doesn't even have the guide, he/she might not even know they exist. You know, a lot of these "deep" items that were difficult to find, were actually fun for some of us. Some gamers, including myself, like the exploration factor.

And then there were things like Lucrecia's cave, which was insanely well-hidden and which most people wouldn't even dream of trying to reach without knowing what it was for, and which would seem pointless if you for there and weren't using Vincent. Nothing about the situation implies that he's necessary.

And as far as the ultimate weapons, common sense would tell anyone who found a couple of them that there was one for each character.


The game hints at certain things to help you obtain these items. One from the top of my head would have to be Tifa's ultimate weapon. There's a guy standing outside Midgar, saying he dropped the key at some excavation site. Seeing as there's only one excavation site in the whole damn game, it's not hard to realize you need to head to Bone Village. It may take some time to find the damn thing, but it's not like the search costs a lot of gil. Once you go in and EXPLORE Midgar again, you're bound to go back into that item store which served no purpose before, and find Tifa's weapon. Isn't Cloud's weapon obtained by defeating that dragon? Who the hell is just going to leave that dragon there? Barrett's ultimate weapon is a little absurd, but if you weren't using him on your return to Midgar, there's no reason why you'd need his ultimate weapon anyway.

First of all, the hint that there's a key to Midgar out there does not in any way imply that there is an ultimate weapon in that item shop. Tying that in was pointless.

As for Barrett, wait a moment. For the people reading this, I'm going to clarify something. To get his ultimate weapon, you have to have Barrett in your party at a place you only get to go through once. Now, garlic here tries to downplay this bit of information that outright PROVES my point. Everyone point and laugh.


You want to complain about obtaining Vincent and Yuffie? If you searched the Shinra mansion, it wasn't hard to figure out the combination for the safe. Vincent you can definitely get no matter what. You can make all the wrong decisions, but always go back to his casket and simply choose the other one. Yuffie's is the same way, cept she was obviously gonna be a little harder to find. This is why they were optional characters, they were meant to be difficult to join your group. Nothing is supposed to be a cakewalk, here. Nothing sounds like a 'massive' amount of trial and error here.

Are you trying to contradict yourself at least once in every sentence? You say they're supposed to be difficult to get because they're optional characters and you say that all you need to do is be patient and keep trying until you say the right things, yet you also say there isn't a big amount of trial and error involved? Sheesh. Your credibility is draining by the second, but it's worth it because you're amusing me.


Proof? This is more or less your theory. If someone wants to buy a game guide, that is their prerogative. It really depends on the gamer who is purchasing the game. We aren't idiots, any person with common sense knows that a game guide will completely ruin the game. Just the very idea that you believe that this game started the notion of "game + guide" is just absurd. I feel like I'm arguing with an opinion of yours here.

You said it yourself. FFVII introduced a lot of people to what you mistakenly believe are RPGs. They didn't know better. They didn't know that it wasn't standard, especially considering how hard the guide was pushed. And you're a total fool if you don't think people are stupid. They're gullible idiots who take things they're not familiar with at face value. That's the reason that marketing works in the first place.


Okay, and this is why you hate FFVII? <_<
Yeah, it was a low blow, but who really cares? Anybody with half a brain and internet could have easily found all the secrets online. Squaresoft didn't force anybody to buy the guide. If someone bought the guide, they obviously enjoyed the game, and really wanted to beat it 100%.

I dislike it for more reasons than that. We just haven't touched on them. And anyway, in 1997, there weren't nearly as many people with regular internet access as there are today.

Also, I find it utterly hilarious that you just claimed (Yes, you did. Don't try to deny it. I have it quoted.) that people "obviously" only bought the guide because they already enjoyed the game.


Not really being an RPG? That comment is just stupid. Last I checked, you were playing as the role of Cloud, and all the other characters. It's a role playing game, whether you like it or not. Misrepresenting the genre? Oh, man. If it wasn't for this game I know for a fact I never would have played Xenosaga, Xenogears, Elder Scrolls, and the other FF's. You're wrong. I'm sorry if you don't like this game, but it's asinine to argue that it isn't a real RPG.

This was my final litmus test and your last chance to prove that you really do have a brain hidden under all your rhetoric and contradiction. Alas, you do not.

By the definition of a role-playing game you just gave, PAC-MAN IS A FUCKING RPG, YOU MORON. Role-playing games were a western creation whose defining characteristic was free-form character development. The Japanese misunderstood it when D&D made its way to their shores and mistook the systems for the defining characteristic, despite the fact that they were taken from older tabletop wargames, thus leading them to proliferate a misnomer.

You could have passed the litmus test by asking for clarification about my meaning, but instead you jumped head first into the trap by blindly spewing more ignorant rhetoric.


I think I'm doing a great job, otherwise you wouldn't even be responding back to me. I've also clearly gotten you a little upset, too. ;)

Again, back to the bit where this is sport for me. I'm laughing as I type.


Boy, a company trying to sell their game? How dare they?! I do believe I also saw commercials for FFVIII and FFIX, and I saw nothing but the FMV cutscenes. Who the hell wants to show off their weakest graphics on TV? Basically, people enjoyed the game, and even though it was easy, they were entitled to brag about the game because they enjoyed it. I don't see anything wrong with that. For those of us who started with FFVII, this wasn't that shallow, so you have to understand. Looking back, yeah it's a shallow story, but I can totally understand why people thought it was great. Other games don't get popular by word of mouth and hype? I'm confused here.

Again with the nitwittery. I never said it was wrong or unnatural that it became popular that way. I simply implied that it was not because of any actual merit the game itself possessed.


Scroll down a little, I believe you told a guy to die and burn in a fire because he enjoyed the game. Way to contradict yourself there.

Again, giving people what they deserve. He jumped right into the middle of an argument, spouted a few words of cheap rhetoric without making any sort of real contribution to the discussion, and bailed out.


You don't make yourself anyone's enemy, huh? I can tell you right now that your attitude have already made me your new enemy. :)
But I'm not gonna tell you to die in a fire though, that's a bit over the line.

If you want to be my enemy, that's fine. I don't care at all.

As for diaf line, that's par for the course around here, and is commonly used as a jest. My use of it was simply for emphatic effect, and did not convey a desire for that person to actually die in a fire.


I just love how you justify your negative qualities.

My so-called negative qualities have served me quite well. I exist at the center of my social circle and am always listened to when I speak. Those same qualities have also made me damn good at my job. They ensure that nothing life throws at me ever gets under my skin, and help me to get my way in almost every situation.


I'm not defensive, you are. I already know I'm beating you in this little debate we got going here, and there is little you can say to convince me otherwise.

Participants in debates look stupid when they declare themselves to be the winner.


Anger management issues, much? This is just ridiculous. It's people like you who deserve to be banned from message boards.

I wonder why that has never happened then. Oh right, it's because most people get the sense from me that I know what I'm talking about, and the people I find worth my time reportedly find me to be rather personable.


It's also people like you who keep QUALITY new users from signing up on the message boards.

How ironic that you should say that. I consider myself to be quality control around here, driving out the idiots before they can lay down roots and annoy everyone else. Most people here seem to agree with that, although you'd probably want to ask them for yourself.


Here we have a guy who just says he enjoyed FFVII and stated his opinion, and you completely blow up in his face. That guy did not deserve what you just said, and it was very cruel and inappropriate.

Cry me a river and drown in the saline sadness.


I'm just glad you aren't in charge of this message board, because I doubt there'd be many new users.

I am a moderator, actually, although not over this section. That appointment doesn't seem to have slowed down registrations at all.


I'm sure that makes two new users who have just joined this site get a very bad first impression of the fan-base around here(me and the guy you told to die in a fire). Yep, you're a real nice guy who doesn't provoke people to become angry at you, indeed. -_-

I never said I don't provoke people or that I don't want to make people angry at me. I love it when that happens. Have a nice day.

I am a moderator, actually, although not over this section. That appointment doesn't seem to have slowed down registrations at all.
Too funny, rolling around laughing...

i kinda like this game

i should probably go kill myself now tho

My god a newbie who's defending FF7 against Prak w/o cursing like an ass. Seriously GP keep posting you're afresh face and an opinionated person with the power to articulate that opinion.


Venomously, huh? You're the one retaliating like a snake right now. I already have seemed to hit a nerve with you...guess there is absolutely nothing good that has come from this game at all, huh? C'mon, now.

Seriously this is nice Prak, he's debating with you. As an equal- I don't know- but he has not at all been venomous TRUST ME.

SMB was far from easy, it was a nice challenge of moderate length. But game-play varies with everyone so it's stupid to discuss.


Not really being an RPG? That comment is just stupid. Last I checked, you were playing as the role of Cloud, and all the other characters. It's a role playing game, whether you like it or not. Misrepresenting the genre? Oh, man. If it wasn't for this game I know for a fact I never would have played Xenosaga, Xenogears, Elder Scrolls, and the other FF's. You're wrong. I'm sorry if you don't like this game, but it's asinine to argue that it isn't a real RPG.



Yes and in Crash Bandicoot you are playing the role of Crash. In Pac Man you are playing the role of Pac Man, long story short- it's not an rpg because your ending and plot is completely linear and predetermined unlike life. Prak's been explaining that Misnomer for a while, I just trimmed it down a lot.

As far as winning this debate don't jump the gun, this isn't all Prak has to say.

i should probably go kill myself now tho


Yeah you should, double posting on purpose is retarded.

Yeah you should, double posting on purpose is retarded.

ur right i should have edited one wasted space could totally make ffshrine go bankrupt

I guess it's perfectly alright to double post as you please :rolleyes:

And Prak once again crushes people with logic. When I first got here Prak scared the shit outta me. Now that I have been here for a little while, I really enjoy when Prak joins the debate.

garlic powder, your not going to win in an FFVII debate.... not in this forum. I am a fan of the game but even I find all the fanboy hype sickening. Now I am not saying you are a fanboy but all the FFVII talk gets old regardless

I actually didn't get the impression Garlic Powder was a fan boy at all (though at the same time can understand why others here have) and thought some of what he said - though admittedly not all of it - was presented in a reasonably intelligent way. At the very least, he put some thought into what he said and didn't come out with ridiculous comments like the following:


meh. still a good game. fuck what everyone else says.

:rolleyes:


If he'd just been willing to consider the possibility that some of his knowledge was flawed, and hadn't allowed personal feelings to cloud some of his responses, I think the debate could have been really interesting.

Still I guess the end result is the same whichever way you look at it. The thread had potential. But in the end didn't really go anywhere. :-(

Just for the record, even though FFVII was agressively marketed with its guide, I never needed it to find everything in the game.

I'm among the few here who really enjoyed the game, and I completed it twice in a row back in 97. Saying there were stuff hidden too deep to find by yourself is completely false. There may not have clues for every little pieces of "treasure" in the game, but if you took the time to do most sidequests (like the digging part) then you would have eventually found everything on your own. In fact, FFVII didn't have anything most hidden than any FFs before it.
I'm thinking Illumina from FFVI and the Imp and Bomb summons from FFIV for example.

I'm compelled to join the debate, but I think I'll wait until the moron noob gets out of the way realising his delusional winning position is only a fantasy of his.

Long post coming up here, so feel free to tl;dr it if you wish.

I don't usually defend FFVII, but there are a couple of your points I would like to respond to, Prak, purely out of interest. Feel free to offer a rebuttal, but bear in mind that I am only speculating here and am not making any claims regarding FFVII's quality.

Firstly, regarding FFVII's optional content. Of the stuff you and GP have debated, only Barret's (possibly Cid's) ultimate weapon can be considered something that is down to either having a guide or sheer chance. The other things do require trial and error to a degree, but that is generally no different to optional content in other games (FFX for example, or FFXII, or pretty much any game in the series that has a significant amount of optional content) or indeed some compulsory content.

The optional characters also do not require a 'huge' amount of trial and error either, you merely need to speak with them two or three times and you will get them assuming you choose different answers each time, and only an idiot would not do that. Both Yuffie and Vincent are relatively easy to find, there are several hints as to Vincent's whereabouts and you are almost certain to encounter Yuffie in a random battle at some point during the game. Inquisitive gamers will probably pursue Yuffie having encountered her once, if they don't acquire her the first time that is.

The ultimate weapons, apart from Barret's and mybe Cid's, are all part of other optional sidequests or part of the compulsory stuff. Finding Tifa's ultimate weapon, something you have griped about for being too random, is something that inquistive gamers will pick up on just as much as any other piece of optional content in any FF game. For example, getting into the Den of Woe in FFX-2, something I know you hold up as being a good example of what optional content should be, requires just as much 'aimless' hunting to track down the Crimson Spheres. Sure, those who explore FFX-2 wll eventually find them, but rarely does anyone ever give you any details regarding where they actually are, you simply have to do every sidequest in the game and search every last corner of Spira. Equally, those who visit Midgar on the second and third discs will get a clue as to where to find the key, and therefore will be likely to explore all the areas of Sector 6 (it's not like there's that much to explore). So they will, by logic, find Tifa's Premium Heart.

Secondly, the plot twists. There are at least two that I can think of off the top of my head that would fulfil your critieria for a plot twist as laid down here: (Naturally, plot spoilers are going to come up here, so if you haven't completed the game and are still reading, stop right now)


Okay, back that up. Detail some plot twists in the game. Keep in mind that a proper plot twist must alter the context and interpretation of a previous scene. For example, the death of Aeris was foreshadowed and followed a natural progression of events without affecting your outlook on previous events in any way. Therefore, it is not a plot twist.

The first would be the murder of President Shinra by Sephiroth (Jenova) in the Shinra Building. That is in no way expected or alluded to prior to the actual event, and most certainly altered the context of a previous scene. Immediately before that, you are planning to escape from the Shinra Building where you are being held hostage. You wake up, follow the blood trail and find the president dead to everyone's surprise. You then learn that Rufus, a much more ambitious and authoritarian man, is about to take over the Presidency of Shinra, which certainly has implications for the rest of the game. If that is not a plot twist, please explain why. It may be that I'm just missing something, but if I am, I'm stumped as to what it is.

The second would be awakening from your seven-day sleep at the start of the second disc to find that the world is in chaos because the WEAPONs are going crazy, you are about to be executed by Shinra, and that Cloud is a vegetable. This one is more debateable as there are small clues that hint at the possibility (for example, the WEAPONs are briefly talked about in a secret scene at Gast's old house in the Icicle Inn) while Cloud was known to flip out before. However, there is no allusion to the chance that you may be executed by Shinra, and since the information given about the WEAPONs in Icicle Inn is limited and rather vague in nature, it is still arguably a plot twist. After all, if the WEAPONs had been brought into the game without any prior information, doubtless people would have been ranting about 'how random it was that these giant killing machines are tearing up the planet'.

Another that I have thought of is the North Corel train incident. That begins as your party merely trying to obtain the Huge Materia from the Reactor, but you end up being carried along by the train, and this fills in a good chunk of Barret's plot, is in no way alluded to previously in the game (how could it be).

In fact it depends on how major an event has to be to qualify as a 'plot twist' as there are numerous smallish events (like the previous North Corel incident) that change your outlook on previous scenes (for example, Red XIII at Cosmo Canyon, he previously thought his father was a 'wastrel' but later find out the truth).

To be honest, in order to comment on this properly I would need more clarification on what is and is not a plot twist, and obviously for you to comment on my examples. Your current explantion of the term 'plot twist' offers a pretty wide scope for examples, so much so that I could probably reel off several more of the more minor ones in FFVII.

I cannot really argue with you about the majority of your gripes with FFVII, which is why I do not consider it to be a particularly fantastic game. However, I am suffering from debate withdrawal symptoms and need something to challenge me. Inevitably, defending FFVII against you will present that challenge.

I think a third interesting plot element (if not truly a twist), assuming it hasn't been mentioned, is Cait Sith's betrayal and subsequent turn, as well as finding out who he really is. In fact, if I recall correctly, Cait Sith's plotline is one of the few in this game that Prak actually finds interesting.

haha, well it was an immediate response to Prak's wah wahs. didn't feel to respond in depth.

but anyways..i was very intrigued by the game because when it was released and compared to everything else in the mainstream of video games, it was of the very few RPG's using 3D/visually pleasing graphics (FFVII was on of the first to have such beautifully looking battle scenes too although FFVIII kind of crushed the look of FFVII anyways) and the first game to my video game knowledge at the time that had such a rich/solid score (minus some tone color issues). plus the fact that it had such a "mature" and modern world yet still fantasy-like to keep it interesting. and your anger towards the fact that the story was so damn flawed and the characters were rather dense. maybe, the more and more and more and more you look at it. i remember reading a while ago about some last minute changes about critical points in the game (a certain person's death, the inclusion of Tifa, etc.). maybe they changed some other things also. Who knows? anyways, i always liked the personalities of the characters in the game. i thought they varied enough. for the most part, not much other games were doing this. yes FFVI did have the most playable main characters of any Final Fantasy, but that kind of works against the game. how many can really be that important? But back to the story. sometimes Final Fantasy VII felt incomplete, and i guess that's why sequels were released (although Advent Children was alright and they should have stopped there). i think they had a lot in mind for this game, but probably just didn't have the time to put it all in nor the space. three discs was probably enough and they didn't want to add another because they were already spending enough money with this game. just a speculation. storyline, incomplete/confusing? possibly but i think the attempt really captivated a lot of gamers. I think there was a LOT going, but then it just sometimes became unanswered. FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII had the most interesting and stand out stories to me. i'd like to cee Yoshinori Kitase as more of a director in the future of Final Fantasies or just in games in general, but i don't cee that happening. he looks comfortable with the producer status i guess. but i regress. I think Final Fantasy VII made a wonderful impact, and the story seemed good in theory, but with due-dates, possible disc space issues due to cut scenes, new platform, it may have been hard to cram it all in. i think FFVIII did a better job at doing so though, and they definitely learned from their mistakes.

and yes, it's a shame Squaresoft allowed BradyGames to flaunt their error-ridden piece of shit strategy guide so freely. and i know i wasn't too happy with the spoilers within it. but i don't think the immediate designers really planned for that to happen, so it's not fair to them. Maybe Sony wanted this? How often were strategy guides pushed on previous consoles?

i don't think anyone is saying that this is the best game ever. it's good. it's memorable. its graphics paved the way. its modern world may have intrigued more people. but no one said it's the best. oh if you find comfort/pleasure in putting me in the category of "fanboy," so be it. i could care less =).

I like FFVII simply because of its incredible storyline, battle system and the music

The storyline was semi-decent, but not as compelling as either IX or VI. The battle system had some interesting elements, but wasn't as creative or unique as a Jobs system or X's Sphere Grid. The music was almost entirely all likeable, but didn't have as many standout tunes in comparison to some FFs.


All in all, the reason why so many are so down on this game are because there are so many raving on and on about how it's the "best," and it isn't. Not even close. Oh, that and it has about fifty-million different lame spin-offs/side projects associated with it.

I like FFVII simply because of its incredible storyline, battle system and the music

Now I will agree, out of all the battle systems I enjoyed the Materia system the most. However, every battle system has its flaws and Materia is no different. I loved how you could customize your character to anyway you wanted. At the same time that is also its biggest flaw. The actual characters you had in the fight really didn't matter, all the mattered was what materia you had on your characters. The only major character difference was whether or not they used ranged attacked(so you could put them in the back row). Materia also made the game WAY too easy.

Not a very convincing argument from a debating standpoint (few facts/ mostly opinion) but that is my 2 cents.

If you want an analysis of the flaws of the various battle systems, I recommend the thread I recently started regarding the matter in the General FF section.

Various Materia is another thing you might never find without the guide.

There is one hidden on one of the random paths in the Ice place near the crater, i forget the name.

Steal as well? or Elemental?


Oh and what about the Alexander summon. How on earth are you supposed to knowingly work that one out?

You could still find it on your own even without a guide. The same as you could find Imp or Bomb in FFIV without guides.


I know, I did.

Just so you guys know, I fully intend to reply to the recent posts, but it'll take quite a while to type that reply and I'm rather busy today, so it'll either be late tonight or sometime tomorrow before I get around to it.

Ceidwad, I'm actually looking forward to debating the matter with you, so be prepared for a drawn-out match.

Well you can stumble across anything so long as it's possible to access in game. Thats not really the same as a side quest.

I have to agree that it's nigh impossible to "stumble upon" certain Materia in this game without either A.) a a lot of luck or B.) a guide. Two good examples I can think of are Alexander and perhaps W-Item.

It's such a long time ago now since I finished the game, it's hard to remember for definite, but I'm pretty sure I never found the Alexander materia, though did come across W-item eventually.

Firstly, regarding FFVII's optional content. Of the stuff you and GP have debated, only Barret's (possibly Cid's) ultimate weapon can be considered something that is down to either having a guide or sheer chance. The other things do require trial and error to a degree, but that is generally no different to optional content in other games (FFX for example, or FFXII, or pretty much any game in the series that has a significant amount of optional content) or indeed some compulsory content.

First of all, there are quite a few other bits of optional content that we had not even touched on, a good example of which is the Alexander summon which has already been discussed by others.

As for those other games, I consider those to be worse than FFVII in that regard, but I largely blame FFVII for setting the series on that path.


The optional characters also do not require a 'huge' amount of trial and error either, you merely need to speak with them two or three times and you will get them assuming you choose different answers each time, and only an idiot would not do that. Both Yuffie and Vincent are relatively easy to find, there are several hints as to Vincent's whereabouts and you are almost certain to encounter Yuffie in a random battle at some point during the game. Inquisitive gamers will probably pursue Yuffie having encountered her once, if they don't acquire her the first time that is.

Upon reflection, I will concede that I exaggerated the amount of trial and error in the dialogue required to get those characters. While there were quite a few questions to answer correctly, especially for Yuffie, they were so mind-numbingly obvious that I can scarcely imagine anyone not getting them right on the second attempt.

However, it is also worth noting that I did not even encounter Yuffie for the first time until I was well into disc two, and then only because someone told me about the character.


The ultimate weapons, apart from Barret's and mybe Cid's, are all part of other optional sidequests or part of the compulsory stuff. Finding Tifa's ultimate weapon, something you have griped about for being too random, is something that inquistive gamers will pick up on just as much as any other piece of optional content in any FF game.

I didn't gripe about Tifa's being too random. I made no mention of it, in fact.


For example, getting into the Den of Woe in FFX-2, something I know you hold up as being a good example of what optional content should be, requires just as much 'aimless' hunting to track down the Crimson Spheres. Sure, those who explore FFX-2 wll eventually find them, but rarely does anyone ever give you any details regarding where they actually are, you simply have to do every sidequest in the game and search every last corner of Spira.

What the crap? I dislike X-2's random bullshit as much as any other game's. While I like the game itself simply for the fact that it has more active and entertaining gameplay than any previous game in the series, that doesn't change anything about the inherently flawed design philosophy it was created under.


Equally, those who visit Midgar on the second and third discs will get a clue as to where to find the key, and therefore will be likely to explore all the areas of Sector 6 (it's not like there's that much to explore). So they will, by logic, find Tifa's Premium Heart.

Yet on the other hand, there's really no reason to explore Sector 6 if you don't already know that there are things to look for. The game's main path gives you no reason to go back, after all.


The first would be the murder of President Shinra by Sephiroth (Jenova) in the Shinra Building. That is in no way expected or alluded to prior to the actual event, and most certainly altered the context of a previous scene. Immediately before that, you are planning to escape from the Shinra Building where you are being held hostage. You wake up, follow the blood trail and find the president dead to everyone's surprise. You then learn that Rufus, a much more ambitious and authoritarian man, is about to take over the Presidency of Shinra, which certainly has implications for the rest of the game. If that is not a plot twist, please explain why. It may be that I'm just missing something, but if I am, I'm stumped as to what it is.

That is simple plot progression. You say it altered the context of a previous scene, but it did not do that at all. The characters were still acting for exactly the same reasons you previously believed, regardless of what was happening in a different location. The meaning of everything before then remained exactly the same.


The second would be awakening from your seven-day sleep at the start of the second disc to find that the world is in chaos because the WEAPONs are going crazy, you are about to be executed by Shinra, and that Cloud is a vegetable. This one is more debateable as there are small clues that hint at the possibility (for example, the WEAPONs are briefly talked about in a secret scene at Gast's old house in the Icicle Inn) while Cloud was known to flip out before. However, there is no allusion to the chance that you may be executed by Shinra, and since the information given about the WEAPONs in Icicle Inn is limited and rather vague in nature, it is still arguably a plot twist. After all, if the WEAPONs had been brought into the game without any prior information, doubtless people would have been ranting about 'how random it was that these giant killing machines are tearing up the planet'.

As before, this does not alter the context of previous events or represent a dramatic departure from the previous path of the story. It simply changes the setting as part of normal plot progression.


Another that I have thought of is the North Corel train incident. That begins as your party merely trying to obtain the Huge Materia from the Reactor, but you end up being carried along by the train, and this fills in a good chunk of Barret's plot, is in no way alluded to previously in the game (how could it be).

The character had to have a backstory, you know. Unless your idea of a plot twist is Barrett not having popped out of the ground with a bad attitude and a gun on his arm, it shouldn't be surprising at all that he had a bit of history floating out there.


In fact it depends on how major an event has to be to qualify as a 'plot twist' as there are numerous smallish events (like the previous North Corel incident) that change your outlook on previous scenes (for example, Red XIII at Cosmo Canyon, he previously thought his father was a 'wastrel' but later find out the truth).

Again, incorrect. The truth behind Red's father was the resolution of a subplot, not a twist in its path.


To be honest, in order to comment on this properly I would need more clarification on what is and is not a plot twist, and obviously for you to comment on my examples. Your current explantion of the term 'plot twist' offers a pretty wide scope for examples, so much so that I could probably reel off several more of the more minor ones in FFVII.

With any luck, I've given enough information that you should be able to figure it out, but I'll go a step further and list a couple notable ones, as well as the reasons for them being twists.

An excellent example of a plot twist is the end of The Empire strikes Back, when Vader reveals that he's Luke's father. This is a twist because it is not the resolution of a plot in itself, but drastically alters the context of previous scenes, making us question Obi-Wan's motives in lying about it, as well as setting the protagonist on a new primary quest.

Now it is possible using that example to equate it to the change in FFVII's plot from fighting Shinra to chasing Sephiroth, but that is an entirely forced contrivance based on an impossible leap of anti-logic:

Cloud - "ZOMG, I owe Sephiroth. I must hunt him down."
Barrett - "Will it help save the planet?"
Cloud - "Yeh dawg, o' course it will."
Barrett - "Then let us sally forth and do away with the vile wretch!"

If we look to the FF series for real plot twists, one I remember well was from FFX, when it's revealed that summoners die after calling their final aeon. Assuming you didn't predict that development, it makes you completely re-evaluate a great many things from earlier in the game, drastically changing the context of several scenes.

A further example would be the big twist in KOTOR. Lots of scenes alluded to that development, but seemed to mean something else entirely at the time.

An excellent example of a plot twist is the end of The Empire strikes Back, when Vader reveals that he's Luke's father.

How about a spoiler alert, you fucking bastard? Once again you prove what a jerk you are, Prak.

Also, major lol at the revival of a debate that should be dead and buried, but is now crawling with what's left of its jaw and begging for people to kill it.

If it counts for anything, I immensely enjoyed FFVII when it came out and I'd play it right now if I had the time to spare. I acknowledge its flaws but I honestly don't let them bother me. It's a very playable game.

I can't believe this, but some of the points which have been made in here have actually got me thinking about re-playing the game at some stage just to see if my observations about them would be the same or not. Still whether I definitely will or not is another matter. It would have to be at a time I wasn't more interested in playing another game, and the liklihood of that happening anytime soon is pretty much nil lol.

Plot Twists in FFVII:


(SPOILER ALERT IF YOU (yeah, you, the one feeling isolated there) HAVEN'T FINISHED THE GAME)

-Sephiroth was created by using Jenova Cells. Which resulted in him losing it when he found out about it, and becoming the villain of the game.
-Cloud was supposed to be a failed experiment of Hojo's project to create a "clone" of Sephiroth and never made it to SOLDIER. But in actuality, we learn that he is the only successful "clone".
-Aeris have had the White materia the whole game and prayed for Holy.
-Cloud loses it and hand the Black Materia to Sephiroth, who then use it to call Meteor.

... I'll think of many more, if people still can't see them.

Arguing with me on this is pretty pointless, as I'm sure I'm as close to an authority on literary devices as we have around here.


-Sephiroth was created by using Jenova Cells. Which resulted in him losing it when he found out about it, and becoming the villain of the game.

This is revealed through standard plot progression, not a twist. However, it does remind me that the game had one legitimate example of a twist, which was that the Sephiroth the party had chased was not the real one, and that he was frozen elsewhere. That actually altered the context of previous scenes, although it was only to a very small degree.


-Cloud was supposed to be a failed experiment of Hojo's project to create a "clone" of Sephiroth and never made it to SOLDIER. But in actuality, we learn that he is the only successful "clone".

This might have been a twist if not for the fact that the game slapped you upside the head early on with the fact that Cloud's past was not as it seemed. After the first contradictions were dropped, it was just a matter of clarification, which falls under standard progression.


-Aeris have had the White materia the whole game and prayed for Holy.

Not a twist at all, because the moment the item in question becomes relevant, the fact that she had it is also revealed.


-Cloud loses it and hand the Black Materia to Sephiroth, who then use it to call Meteor.

There were already indications that Cloud could be controlled by Sephiroth. Again, this is standard plot progression; one event leading directly into the next, like ABCDEF...

Prak, the way you put it, there are no plot twists in any stories, because each events in a story is following a natural progression that rely on you turning each pages...

Seriously, these plot twists are there, that you accept it or not.

Learning that Sephiroth was an experiment, is a plot twist. Before we learn that, all Sephiroth is, is a cold blooded killer. Once we learn why, the character gains more depth and we understand his motives more. However twisted he might still be.

Cloud's past being contradicted because of his lies throughout the game, doesn't change the fact that at the end, be it a lame plot twist or a great one, it is still a twist. Just because you didn't like it, doesn't change that fact.

Aeris to have the white materia, and that she was on the altar to pray for holy shortly before she's killed, IS a plot twist. If she hadn't done so, the whole ending of the game wouldn't have been what it is.

Indications that Cloud could be controlled by Sephiroth or not, it was used as a plot twist device. You could or not guess that it was going to happen, but the fact that it did happen, changed the course of the story. Meteor was called and new factors were put in the story. After Meteor, the mood of the game, and the game's inhabitant, all changed. And it wasn't now just a quest to end Sephiroth, it was now a also a quest to get rid of Meteor.

Hynad, you seem to have your reading comprehension skills wired to a switch. Sometimes you understand everything and sometimes it seems like you're skipping half the words in an attempt to just get a general idea of what the conversation is about so that you can just chime in. Please turn the switch on.

I already covered the nature of a plot twist pretty well. I gave examples of real twists, as well as why they are twists.

Re-read my post now. I've edited it so you understand better the nature of the plot twists in FFVII.

Calling yourself the authority on literary devices will not really intimidate me, Prak. No need for such boastful claims.

Just so you know, you should turn your sarcasm detector on... Because that was what my un-edited post was.

I don't make boasts I can't support. You should know that by now.


Learning that Sephiroth was an experiment, is a plot twist. Before we learn that, all Sephiroth is, is a cold blooded killer. Once we learn why, the character gains more depth and we understand his motives more. However twisted he might still be.

Again, incorrect. Knowing his motives does not change anything about the character. He's still the villain. He still must be stopped. The protagonists do not approach the character any differently after learning where he came from.


Cloud's past being contradicted because of his lies throughout the game, doesn't change the fact that at the end, be it a lame plot twist or a great one, it is still a twist. Just because you didn't like it, doesn't change that fact.

You completely ignored my point, and tried to cover that up by throwing rhetoric at me. Bad form. I explained my position, so if you think you can get away with just going "Nuh uh, ur wrong," you're sadly mistaken.


Aeris to have the white materia, and that she was on the altar to pray for holy shortly before she's killed, IS a plot twist. If she hadn't done so, the whole ending of the game wouldn't have been what it is.

[obligatory jab]You mean it wouldn't have been a pile of shit?[/obligatory jab]

Anyway, you're doing the "nuh uh" thing again, which simply does not hold up under debate conditions.


Indications that Cloud could be controlled by Sephiroth or not, it was used as a plot twist device. You could or not guess that it was going to happen, but the fact that it did happen, changed the course of the story. Meteor was called and new factors were put in the story. After Meteor, the mood of the game, and the game's inhabitant, all changed. And it wasn't now just a quest to end Sephiroth, it was now a also a quest to get rid of Meteor.

Every single development in a plot has the potential to shift its course. Thats simply the way plot progression works. A plot twist is about a sudden change in the way you view events, not simply every slightly pivotal event in a story.

Aeris calling Holy changes the course of the story. Why you didn't address that and chose to point at the Nuh huh bit is beyond me.

The same as with Meteor.


And as for Aeris' death, you call that a natural progression. Yet it did change the course of the story. For more or less the same reason she called holy. If not for her death, her prayer wouldn't have reached the planet, and Holy wouldn't have been activated.

i like this game's music

Unfortunately Prak, the majority of stuff I was just seeking clarification on here, and I notice you have also accepted some of my of my points. So, there won't be a huge amount of disagreement in the post. But I still have something to say on a couple of things, so I may as well give a reply to them.


What the crap? I dislike X-2's random bullshit as much as any other game's. While I like the game itself simply for the fact that it has more active and entertaining gameplay than any previous game in the series, that doesn't change anything about the inherently flawed design philosophy it was created under.

I was under the impression during previous discussions we've had that you liked the non-essential parts of FFX-2, because they rewarded those who explored the game further, and actually held up the Den of Woe as being one of the best examples within the game. I haven't a clue where the thread is where you more or less said that, but I do remember it vividly, as it was the one of the first threads I posted in here. I could probably drag it up if necessary, though I don't feel like wading through my old posts to find it right now.


That is simple plot progression. You say it altered the context of a previous scene, but it did not do that at all. The characters were still acting for exactly the same reasons you previously believed, regardless of what was happening in a different location. The meaning of everything before then remained exactly the same.

It does change the way in which you view the plot up to that point for two reasons.

Firstly, Rufus clearly states that he intends to rule with fear and intimidation rather than controlling Midgar with money, media and Mako power. This was not a huge twist in the plot, but it did mean that the player would naturally expect a change from Shinra. Of course, the player wouldn't exactly know what was coming up later in the game at that point, such as the creation of the Junon Cannon, the Gelnika, and all the other crazy weapons Shinra bring up on the second disc, but it's a safe bet to say that those things wouldn't have happened had PS stayed in power.

It is mentioned in another scene that President Shinra is just happy to sit around and accumulate profit while the planet slowly dies, but Rufus actively seeks to bring intimidation and destruction. This may not change the reason that several characters fight against Shinra, but it does give their fight more urgency (not that you'd know it from the next part of the plot which is appallingly slow-paced, mind) because of the threat of even shorter-term destruction.

Secondly, it most certainly changes the reason for which Cloud acts in the way he does. Because Sephiroth is proven to be alive, which previously was a grey area, and Rufus seeks to use him for Shinra's purposes, Cloud actually has a genuine reason to travel with the others as opposed to just being hired help. The other characters may not change their reasons for continuing to travel, but Cloud actually has a reason to fight (albeit reluctantly) against Shinra other than for money. Aeris also has a reason to travel at that point, since being an Ancient she would naturally want to learn more about Sephiroth. Without this event, neither Aeris nor Cloud would have a reason to fight against Shinra beyond leaving Midgar, which is obviously significant.

So, while this is not a twist in the same league as the one from FFX you mention later in your post, or the one from Star Wars (by the way, Espanha, this is 2008, and you still didn't know that?), going by your definitions, I think it still qualifies.


With any luck, I've given enough information that you should be able to figure it out, but I'll go a step further and list a couple notable ones, as well as the reasons for them being twists.

An excellent example of a plot twist is the end of The Empire strikes Back, when Vader reveals that he's Luke's father. This is a twist because it is not the resolution of a plot in itself, but drastically alters the context of previous scenes, making us question Obi-Wan's motives in lying about it, as well as setting the protagonist on a new primary quest.

Now it is possible using that example to equate it to the change in FFVII's plot from fighting Shinra to chasing Sephiroth, but that is an entirely forced contrivance based on an impossible leap of anti-logic:

Cloud - "ZOMG, I owe Sephiroth. I must hunt him down."
Barrett - "Will it help save the planet?"
Cloud - "Yeh dawg, o' course it will."
Barrett - "Then let us sally forth and do away with the vile wretch!"

If we look to the FF series for real plot twists, one I remember well was from FFX, when it's revealed that summoners die after calling their final aeon. Assuming you didn't predict that development, it makes you completely re-evaluate a great many things from earlier in the game, drastically changing the context of several scenes.

I agree on the FFX twist. I also have no complaints about your description of the retardedness of the quoted dialogue from the Midgar Highway. (after all, they could have just skipped that and they would still all have had a reason to travel together due to the President Shinra/Rufus incident above) Then again, retarded dialogue is hardly rare in FFVII. However, that was not the event I was referring to in the previous post, just for the record. I hope this one clears it up for you.

Edit: Also, I see that while I have been writing this post, Hynad has contributed a fair bit to this thread.

All I have to say is, I agree with Prak on this:


Hynad, you seem to have your reading comprehension skills wired to a switch. Sometimes you understand everything and sometimes it seems like you're skipping half the words in an attempt to just get a general idea of what the conversation is about so that you can just chime in. Please turn the switch on.

Sometimes, Hynad, you make really insightful posts. Other times, I'm wondering what you're talking about or trying to sort through your spelling and grammar. I have noticed that in longer posts you write I tend towards the latter, so keep your answers brief and you'll be fine.

I am being NOT calm right now.

Hynad, calm the hell down. This is merely the internet. It is not personal, and even if it was, I said that you often make excellent posts, which was intended as a compliment.

Maybe so, but how can I not take it personal when you basically said that my grammar and spelling are bad?

Thanks for the compliment though. But I could say the same thing about just about anyone who post on this board when it comes to comprehension.

As you said, it is the internet. Many of the stuff posted here can be misinterpreted.


Now, if I had something to point at that only concerned the "plot twist" part of the debate, then who are you to tell me that I didn't get the bigger picture? My point were about the different plot twists and I pointed at them. End of story. There is nothing difficult to understand there.

-Cloud was supposed to be a failed experiment of Hojo's project to create a "clone" of Sephiroth and never made it to SOLDIER. But in actuality, we learn that he is the only successful "clone".
This might have been a twist if not for the fact that the game slapped you upside the head early on with the fact that Cloud's past was not as it seemed. After the first contradictions were dropped, it was just a matter of clarification, which falls under standard progression.

As far as this argument is concerned, isn't there a parallel with the great plot twist of FFX, which, according to you no less, is an excellent example of a plot twist? It is hinted at at least once that I can remember off the top of my head, which is the scene outside the Travel Agency on the Mi'ihen Highroad. There, Tidus says 'you can just keep beating Sin each time it comes back' or something to that effect, and Yuna is clearly undecisive in her reply, which therefore gives you some hint that she will not be able to perform the Final Summoning again. Also, the fact that Yuna's father isn't around, and that Jecht is Sin having been Braska's guardian-these things point to the great plot twist. I'm sure if I played FFX again I could find more hints, since I haven't played it in months.

And as for Aeris' death, you call that a natural progression. Yet it did change the course of the story. For more or less the same reason she called holy. If not for her death, her prayer wouldn't have reached the planet, and Holy wouldn't have been activated.

I think the point being made there by Prak was, while indeed this was enough to push the story in a different direction to which it would have gone otherwise, it still didn't change the fact that Sephiroth was a villain or that AVALANCHE had already decided to go after him much earlier on in the game for fear of what would happen to the Promised Land if they didn't. Even if Aeris had remained alive, they would still have attempted the same thing in a different way.

By the way that's not meant as any kind of personal dig. Just thought it might help clarify things a bit more. ;)

Maybe so, but how can I not take it personal when you basically said that my grammar and spelling are bad?

Thanks for the compliment though. But I could say the same thing about just about anyone who post on this board when it comes to comprehension.

As you said, it is the internet. Many of the stuff posted here can be misinterpreted.

I would think that you would know by now that I don't get personal around here. Getting personal over a computer game is a retarded thing to do, and I'm sure I've said that numerous times on here before, like the last debate we had in the FFX section.

Also, note that I didn't say your grammar and spelling were always bad, only when you rushed things.

I think the point being made there was, while indeed this was enough to push the story in a different direction to which it would have gone otherwise, it still didn't change the fact that Sephiroth was a villain or that AVALANCHE had already decided to go after him much earlier on in the game for fear of what would happen to the Promised Land if they didn't. Even if Aeris had remained alive, they would still have attempted the same thing in a different way.

The same can be said about Vador in Star Wars. The resistance would have continued its quest to fight against the empire. Learning that Vador was Luke's father didn't change the progression of the story. All the main players still did what they were set to do before that revelation (except of course for the possible romance there was between Luke and his Sis... @_x).

Now, If Aeris had stayed alive, they would still have gone the same path against Sephiroth, but what would have happened to the Meteor? Aeris's death made it possible for Holy to be activated.


Ceidwad: It's okay now. I know I can type pretty bad when I'm in a hurry... Now let's drop that... for now.

I was under the impression during previous discussions we've had that you liked the non-essential parts of FFX-2, because they rewarded those who explored the game further, and actually held up the Den of Woe as being one of the best examples within the game. I haven't a clue where the thread is where you more or less said that, but I do remember it vividly, as it was the one of the first threads I posted in here. I could probably drag it up if necessary, though I don't feel like wading through my old posts to find it right now.

Something didn't ring right, so I dug up that old post. What I had said was that the Den of Woe itself is a good example of a compelling quest that ties into the main story and expands its depth. That is to say nothing, however, of the various spheres required to get into it. And anyway, I was less cynical about such things back then.


It does change the way in which you view the plot up to that point for two reasons.

Firstly, Rufus clearly states that he intends to rule with fear and intimidation rather than controlling Midgar with money, media and Mako power. This was not a huge twist in the plot, but it did mean that the player would naturally expect a change from Shinra. Of course, the player wouldn't exactly know what was coming up later in the game at that point, such as the creation of the Junon Cannon, the Gelnika, and all the other crazy weapons Shinra bring up on the second disc, but it's a safe bet to say that those things wouldn't have happened had PS stayed in power.

Rufus's rise to power occurs in the stage of the plot where the scenario is still building. It is impossible to have a plot twist, even by a far looser definition than the one I use, at a stage which is entirely defined by the growth of conflict.

If it were later in the game when these events occurred and President Shinra had become more of a presence in the game, I might have been willing to loosen my definition of a plot twist enough to concede that.


Secondly, it most certainly changes the reason for which Cloud acts in the way he does. Because Sephiroth is proven to be alive, which previously was a grey area, and Rufus seeks to use him for Shinra's purposes, Cloud actually has a genuine reason to travel with the others as opposed to just being hired help. The other characters may not change their reasons for continuing to travel, but Cloud actually has a reason to fight (albeit reluctantly) against Shinra other than for money. Aeris also has a reason to travel at that point, since being an Ancient she would naturally want to learn more about Sephiroth. Without this event, neither Aeris nor Cloud would have a reason to fight against Shinra beyond leaving Midgar, which is obviously significant.

Your entire point there is based around one fatally flawed assumption: that the player was not meant to know already that Sephiroth is still alive. A twist, by even the most common (i.e. loose) definition, must be at least marginally unexpected/surprising even if has been foreshadowed. Sephiroth being alive and being the primary antagonist was practically written on the fourth wall.


The resistance would have continued its quest to fight against the empire. Learning that Vador was Luke's father didn't change the progression of the story.

It made a drastic change. Due to that revelation, Luke's resolve to destroy Vader was transformed into resolve to save him, which affected all of his actions from that point forward.

It made a drastic change. Due to that revelation, Luke's resolve to destroy Vader was transformed into resolve to save him, which affected all of his actions from that point forward.

I know that. I merely vulgarised it all in the same way she did for Aeris' death.

The same can be said about Vador in Star Wars. The resistence would have continued their quest to fight against the empire. Learning that Vador was Luke's father didn't change the progression of the story. All the main players still did what they were set to do before that revelation (except of course for the possible romance there was between Luke and his Sis... @_x).

Admittedly I could have put my earlier response in a clearer way. But the point I was trying to make was that Aeris's death didn't change either Sephiroth's or Avalanche's aims regarding each other in any way during the story. Avalanche already wanted to go after him. After that they still wanted to go after him. Sephiroth (or the Sephiroth clone, whichever) already intended to defeat them and after still wants to. There's no change.

On the other hand, as has already been mentioned, what happens between Darth Vader and Luke has the opposite kind of effect.

Something didn't ring right, so I dug up that old post. What I had said was that the Den of Woe itself is a good example of a compelling quest that ties into the main story and expands its depth. That is to say nothing, however, of the various spheres required to get into it. And anyway, I was less cynical about such things back then.

Very well. I can't really say more here, since you are at least being consistent in your application of criticism and have to some degree admitted going back on your original comment. However, I will warn you that next time we discuss FFX-2 and if you defend it, I will not use this argument sparingly. :p


Rufus's rise to power occurs in the stage of the plot where the scenario is still building. It is impossible to have a plot twist, even by a far looser definition than the one I use, at a stage which is entirely defined by the growth of conflict.

If it were later in the game when these events occurred and President Shinra had become more of a presence in the game, I might have been willing to loosen my definition of a plot twist enough to concede that.

Your entire point there is based around one fatally flawed assumption: that the player was not meant to know already that Sephiroth is still alive. A twist, by even the most common (i.e. loose) definition, must be at least marginally unexpected/surprising even if has been foreshadowed. Sephiroth being alive and being the primary antagonist was practically written on the fourth wall.

It was about 8-10 hours into the game, and while you are right that the scenario was still building and thus the plot twist would not have had massive implications due to lengthy build up, like the major twist in FFX, it was still a plot twist because it introduced a significant plot element in an unexpected way. 8-10 hours was enough time to establish certain facts and get the gamer to recognise those facts by repeating them in the dialogue, so that by logic was also sufficient time to facilitate a plot twist.

Also, I don't know on what you base the idea that the gamer would know Sephiroth was certainly alive at that point. All there had been up to then was two flashback scenes, one fairly vague, in which Cloud recalls Sephiroth killing Tifa's father and Sephiroth's words claiming to be an Ancient. (Plus, there was one optional scene in the Honeybee Inn, if you used the Group Room, which is even more vague and doesn't reveal anything about the plot, at all)

Nowhere is it alluded to that Sephiroth is definitely alive. Someone playing the game for the first time would have had little inkling that he was based on the first 10 hours of gameplay. All they would know is that he was a figure from Cloud's past.

Also, on the subject of the plot twists, I would be interested in knowing what you think of the argument I put forward re: the similarities between the great twist in FFX and all the secrets about Cloud's past. To be honest, both seem pretty obvious once you have played the game, as might your theory that the gamer was intended to know that Sephiroth was certainly alive at the time of the events in the Shinra Building. However, to a gamer playing the game for the first time, they would be much less obvious.

Admittedly I could have put my earlier response in a clearer way. But the point I was trying to make was that Aeris's death didn't change either Sephiroth's or Avalanche's aims regarding each other in any way during the story. Avalanche already wanted to go after him. After that they still wanted to go after him. Sephiroth (or the Sephiroth clone, whichever) already intended to defeat them and after still wants to. There's no change.

On the other hand, as has already been mentioned, what happens between Darth Vader and Luke has the opposite kind of effect.

Aeris's death didn't change the goal of each sides. It changed the outcome of the whole story. As I stated countless times already, if not for her death (which was a surprise for most here), the ending of the game would have been totally different. Her death made it possible for Holy to be activated (her preyer reached the planet) and in turn, it got rid of the meteor.

Ceidwad: Most of what you refer to are the groundwork of the story. Most of what happens in Midgar is. As such, it is the intro, and can hardly qualify as a plot-twist.

I understand what you're saying

But as far as I recall Aeris was already casting the holy spell when still alive, and by the time Sephiroth succeeded in killing her she'd already achieved this (Though if I'm wrong there please feel free to correct me).

True enough Sephiroth had control over holy for a while, but Avalanche were still able to release it through defeating him so really I don't see how Aeris's death affected it's use, other than simply prolonging things for a while.

Assuming my memory of this is correct, Aeris could have still easily casted holy if Sephiroth hadn't come along to kill her when he did, and this still could have been used against the meteor.

Buggenhagen said that in order for Holy to be achieved, the soul of one seeking it must reach the planet.

By dying, Aeris's soul embarked on its journey to return to the planet. But Sephiroth was blocking the flow of lifestream at the northern crater. Once the party killed him, her soul could finally reach the planet and activate Holy.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

It's quite a long time since I completed the game (which was only once) so admittedly I'm not remembering everything about it as well as I could. Apologies for the error.

And anyway, I was less cynical about such things back then.
Oh, Prak, you poor, poor soul. You've become jaded. :D

*MAJOR FFVII SPOILERS*


You know, I wasn't going to even return to this site, but I felt compelled to at least give this another try. I am not quitter, but rather a learner. I know from experience from mistakes that I need to go back, pin-point my errors and flaws, re-evaluate my way of thinking, and try again. I literally just spent over an hour re-reading everything in this thread again, and writing three pages of notes(yes, I actually wrote down notes). My last response was fueled by way too much emotion, and I want to go back to debating with facts over the actual game. Up until my last response, I felt I was doing okay with the debate. I apologize for coming off as cocky, and I apologize for underestimating Prak and the entire community. I made my errors, and I am ready to earn respect. That said, here we go:

First subject I would like to touch on would be the entire point of this topic. The reason I "blathered about what it did for RPG's over quality" was because this topic was simply never meant to boast the game's quality. I was just curious as to why it had appeared to be hated, and wished to enlighten that FFVII was somewhat revolutionary. Revolutionary, in the sense it attracted gamers into the RPG genre. While you may dispute this game is not really a 'true' RPG Prak, the point I was trying to make was that this rather simple and easy RPG led many gamers to try better and "REAL" RPG's.

Second thing, would be how you stated you DIDN'T wish the game never existed. Yet, you hate it due to all the negative gaming trends this game has caused. Therefore, couldn't one jump to the conclusion that in your opinion, the gaming world would have been better off if this game never existed?

Touching on the nostalgia issue, now. You(Prak) say a nostalgic person would just re-play the original. I would like to challenge that. Those who have fond memories of FFVII, would definitely want to play FFVII again. The problem is, they would literally want to play it again for the first time again. Unless you lose your memory, that is pretty much impossible. A remake would feel VERY NEW, yet at the same time very nostalgic. A remake would be able to fulfill both desires.

I would like to touch on the subject that has been bothering me since this whole thing started. The whole 'burying items/characters/etc' in the game thing. You act as if these are negative qualities. For those gamers that like to explore, and find every little secret, these are the kinds of games we dream about. I'm sure someone will agree, that there is a thrill you get when you find something that is secret(you feel kind of special). You know, that's why it's called a secret. A secret is something that not EVERYBODY is supposed to know about. Complain all you want about not finding Yuffie, or some sort of weapon, but this is why the game gives you an entire world map. IT IS FOR EXPLORING. This game was not targeted for the casual gamer, that much is pretty much a given. Have you ever played Zelda:Wind Waker? I'm sure you hate that game...or any game that requires exploration and/or backtracking. Maybe I'm just not understanding why this happens to be a negative factor, though.

While I may have contradicted myself with Barret's weapon, I was trying to point out that these things do not require a 'massive' amount of searching. "big" doesn't equal massive. Massive sounds a hell of a lot larger than 'big.'

Lucrecia's Cave, Insanely well hidden?! I'm sorry, I can't agree with that. There are only five things you can find with the submarine, and all five of them only take about one dive to find. It's not like the under-water region is a maze or something, and it's not even close. If you wander off from Junon(underwater), I can almost guarantee you will bump into either the key to the ancients, or Lucrecia's cave. The underwater areas practically lead you to these areas. There's only one path you can take for both of them. You really have to have done some half-assed searching to miss the Gelinka, key to the ancients, Huge Materia, and Lucrecia's cave. The game just gave you a sub, any normal person would go exploring.

Moving onto the plot twist example. The first one that I thought of right away was Cait Sith's. Then I saw somebody mention that you find it interesting(supposedly), so I'm gonna go ahead and attempt this(following your critera for a real plot twist). I'm going to focus more on the fact that Cait Sith was a spy, right now. He joins your party based on a bad fortune, and his own concern. Later, we see him stealing the key to the temple of ancients, and handing it over to the Shinra. Now, I don't know about you, but after this discovery it makes me go back and think "did he really join the group based on this concern of his...or just to be the spy, and steal the key to the temple of ancients if Cloud's posse were to have somehow gotten their hands on it?" Was his fortune based on Aeris's death, or did he simply make it all up? Later, in the temple of the Ancients, he makes another bold fortune, yet you can't help wonder if he is lying about what the fortune really said. He says something along the lines of "I can't read this", then suddenly adding "poor Tifa." To me, it sounded like he made up the compatibility line of Aeris and Cloud up just to hide what his fortune really said.

His initial fortune was also correct(Aeris dies later), so it's hard to debate whether or not he was telling the truth, but at the same time I think "did he just make that up join the group to spy on them?" We'll never know. Now, moving onto Cait Sith's second surprise...later we find out he is indeed being controlled by Reeve. Reeve, who's biggest scene in the entire game is him debating with President Shinra to drop the plate over sector 7. Reeve did not want President Shinra to destroy the whole village to simply dispose of Avalanche. He is seen as a bad guy, but at the same time a 'bad guy' with morals and decency. Yet, you as the gamer, are angry that Reeve didn't take matters into his own hands over Sector 7(or at least leave the Shinra). After we find out that he was controlling Cait Sith, you begin to wonder about everything Cait Sith has said so far, and how Reeve impacted all the decisions that Cait Sith made. Cait Sith was the one who did indeed double cross the group for the Shinra, yet later assists them in taking the black materia from the temple. Suddenly, Reeve doesn't seem so bad.

Well, that's just what I think. I hope I didn't miss some sort of clause relating to your criteria.

IT IS FOR EXPLORING. This game was not targeted for the casual gamer, that much is pretty much a given. Have you ever played Zelda:Wind Waker? I'm sure you hate that game...or any game that requires exploration and/or backtracking. Maybe I'm just not understanding why this happens to be a negative factor, though.
I'll just touch on this, briefly. It becomes a negative factor when it you generally can't find it through exploring. When it's something that's some obscure that there's almost no way you can find it except by using a guide.

I'll just touch on this, briefly. It becomes a negative factor when it you generally can't find it through exploring. When it's something that's some obscure that there's almost no way you can find it except by using a guide.

I understand where you're coming from, but it's those kind of secrets that are so hard to find that are the most fun. It's like I go back and re-play FFVII(after a few years), and I'm STILL finding secrets. It really adds to the replayability. It's generally a quality like that is displayed in many people's favorite game. Take SMB3, for example. While the secret levels that exist in the game were never meant to be played(levels that were taken out for whatever reason), it was still exciting to go back to that game and find something new. I also replayed the original Zelda this past summer, and I found something I never even knew about before, and it really blew me away.

Everybody's different, I guess. I'm just the type of gamer that loves to search for secrets and explore every nook and cranny. I'm also the kind of guy who loves to replay his games after a few years, and I realize that isn't for everyone.

*MAJOR FFVII SPOILERS*

I apologize for coming off as cocky, and I apologize for underestimating Prak and the entire community. I made my errors, and I am ready to earn respect. That said, here we go:

First subject I would like to touch on would be the entire point of this topic. The reason I "blathered about what it did for RPG's over quality" was because this topic was simply never meant to boast the game's quality. I was just curious as to why it had appeared to be hated

No probs. ;)

As mentioned a little earlier in here, it can be easy to misinterpret things over the internet. Especially when you're new to a forum community, and aren't yet used to the way things work. But it's worth keeping an open mind when it comes to discussion's like these on here, as while at times people might counteract things you say with replies you might initially think are wrong, it can happen - while it might not be obvious right away - that there's a good reason for this and that they're thinking of something you are not (though of course this doesn't happen all the time).

I will also mention that, though I can understand why you might have gotten a different impression, not everyone here who speaks negatively against the game actually hates it. While they might accuse the game of being bad, that's not necessarily because of personal feelings on it. But because that's just the conclusion they've reached by considering certain facts in regards to what's technically right/wrong about the game. Critical thinking and personal feelings aren't always the same thing. Though admittedly not everybody thinks in that way. And certainly not on all FF sites.

Further Edit:



Keep in mind that a proper plot twist must alter the context and interpretation of a previous scene. For example, the death of Aeris was foreshadowed and followed a natural progression of events without affecting your outlook on previous events in any way. Therefore, it is not a plot twist.


I'd forgotten about this comment of Praks back on the first page of this thread. As a result of re-reading it since typing out my previous response, and having thought further about the things Hynad and I were recently discussing on Aeris's death I would also be grateful for some further clarification on why this isn't a plot twist - if that's ok with you Prak.

I'm not claiming that my literary knowledge is any greater than yours. In fact I'm sure that's not the case, and that it's very likely I'm missing something here. But one thing I do know is that it's acceptable for plot twists to be foreshadowed in a story, so long as the clues given beforehand are subtle. And, from remembering as much as I can about the game at this stage, can't see how Aeris's death would have been natural plot progression either.

Oh garlic powder, a lot of us here love to explore. But I think Kingdom Hearts II is a good model. Its detailed journal with completion icons helps you to know exactly what it is that you still need to search for. You know what I mean? It doesn't tell you necessarily what to look for, or exactly where it is, but it lets you know that you're still missing something, and the general area where that something is.

Oh garlic powder, a lot of us here love to explore. But I think Kingdom Hearts II is a good model. Its detailed journal with completion icons helps you to know exactly what it is that you still need to search for. You know what I mean? It doesn't tell you necessarily what to look for, or exactly where it is, but it lets you know that you're still missing something, and the general area where that something is.

Seriously there Agent, No FF prior ro FFXII required any kind of guides for you to find everything. Believe it or not, but I am the proof of that.

This thread gave me many lols, I would play with this fanboy, but seeing as Prak already did that for me, I'll just chime in with this little point :

Exploration in a game is only good if it's mostly just intuitive enough that a sharp eye can spot it half the time each playthrough. If you stuff a game full of secrets that can only be found through extremely obscure and specific means, then exploration would do jack shit for the game and thus would be pointless, boring, unrewarding and torturously long.

So basically, what you're looking for as far as exploration goes, is for the game to take your hand and point at the treasures for you.

That was pretty fast.

So basically, what you're looking for as far as exploration goes, is for the game to take your hand and point at the treasures for you.


Hynad, you seem to have your reading comprehension skills wired to a switch. Sometimes you understand everything and sometimes it seems like you're skipping half the words in an attempt to just get a general idea of what the conversation is about so that you can just chime in. Please turn the switch on...

Yep...that's about right. ;)

Predictable at best. You didn't evolve since the last time you came here.

Keep on going this way.


Just so you know Joan, in SMB3, you can pass through the white blocks if you hold down when on top of them. It leads to some really good secrets. But I guess you didn't know that, because there is absolutely nothing in the game that gives you a hint for that.

And if I must point it out (because you seem to fail to notice it), I am being SARCASTIC (again) with you here.

Hynad --- so you're telling me found in every secret in X-2 without a guide or other outside help?

Agent, thanks for pointing this one out. I overlooked FFX-2. I should have said it this way: Up to FFX, none requires the use of a guide. But I will agree that it can take a lot of dedication (especially for X) to find everything in the games.

Here's a good example of a nigh-impossible find in FFX: Lulu's ultimate weapon.

That one is underwater in a place that you can't see due to your view being obscured by rocks. Without knowing it's there, you'll never find it.

And in case you're wondering about me, I just don't have the time or patience to spend an hour or more responding to all the recent posts. That's why I prefer one-on-one debates and tend to steer clear of what this has become.

No probs. Nothing I've asked in here which can't easily be answered by a replay of the game anyway. ;-)

Seriously there Agent, No FF prior ro FFXII required any kind of guides for you to find everything. Believe it or not, but I am the proof of that.

Excalibur II in IX. It's extremely unlikely someone will find it without knowing about it. What with it being hidden in an obscure location and requiring a time of under 12 hours for it to appear.

Excalibur II in IX. It's extremely unlikely someone will find it without knowing about it. What with it being hidden in an obscure location and requiring a time of under 12 hours for it to appear.

This weapon is so useless and ridiculous that I'm not surprise no one I've ever met managed to get it (even with proper infos in hands, no less).

But you're right, there's not a lot of chances that someone will get this weapon without the use of outside infos (And probably even less chance that a sane person would attempt getting it. Even for bragging purpose).

The Excalibur II was placed in FFIX as a challenge to those who might be brave enough to attempt it. Never meant to actually be obtained in anyone's first quest of FFIX.

Saying that, yeah it is pretty damn absurd. Slim to none anyone will find that on their first try. I'm pretty sure it was put in the game as a challenge to add some replayability for those of us who like to perform speed runs(and that's not me, I hate speed runs). I do respect those that have done speed runs, and it makes sense that they should get some sort of reward.

And Prak, could you at least tell me if I'm on the right track with the plot twist thing?

I don't mind if a game lays out everything for me, but it's more fun if it doesn't do absolutely everything. If there's something that seems like it's nearly impossible to get, it's never really bothered me, either. I don't see why it should, either! When I play a game, it isn't to work or anything--it's not like I'm stressed for time and have to get as much as I can done in the shortest amount of time possible....
And if I really did want to make a perfect run-through without spending the time discovering things myself, I could just go straight to GameFAQs! All that about game-guide buying seems to be theoretical talk to me.

About the topic title, I think people are proud to call FFVII a game that they've played and enjoyed. There are some people here who seem to think there's something wrong with being proud of FFVII, though.

(And uhm...What's with all the Haruhi avatar things going on right now...?)

(And uhm...What's with all the Haruhi avatar things going on right now...?)

might have something to do with her being the most awesome character to ever exist in anime, perhaps?

She is cute. Too bad the only anime I ever really followed was Hamtaro...

its not her being cute thats her appeal. its the fact she's an overbearing, cocky, psychopath.

If you claim so. Her cuteness sure is appealing to me, though, that is if she's character I'm seeing in your signature. If not, then somebody please redirect me appropriately.

Never seen the show either, so unfortunately don't know the character myself. Sounds pretty interesting though.

If you claim so. Her cuteness sure is appealing to me, though, that is if she's character I'm seeing in your signature. If not, then somebody please redirect me appropriately.

i never said she wasnt cute, but her abrasive and deranged personality is much more entertaining. check the show out and see for yourself, or just youtube Haruhi Suzumiya

Here's a good example of a nigh-impossible find in FFX: Lulu's ultimate weapon.

That one is underwater in a place that you can't see due to your view being obscured by rocks. Without knowing it's there, you'll never find it.

I actually did find that at random. I was surprised by it. I never got around to doing the minigame crap to power it up though, the game is by far easy enough without it.

I actually did find that at random. I was surprised by it. I never got around to doing the minigame crap to power it up though, the game is by far easy enough without it.

same story here

I'm not claiming that my literary knowledge is any greater than yours. In fact I'm sure that's not the case, and that it's very likely I'm missing something here. But one thing I do know is that it's acceptable for plot twists to be foreshadowed in a story, so long as the clues given beforehand are subtle. And, from remembering as much as I can about the game at this stage, can't see how Aeris's death would have been natural plot progression either.

This is strictly my opinion and doesn't have much of anything to do with the actual plot twist debate, but when something is heavily foreshadowed in the story and it's pretty easy to guess that that's what's coming, I never personally see it as a plot twist. Just a hokey WHAT A TWIST moment. Obviously "can Ndi spot the twist coming" isn't the definition of a plot twist, but I guess what I'm getting at is that even if something fits the technical definition of a plot twist, I don't think many people who aren't surprised by it would really think of it as one.

Anyways, to answer the original question- the reason people are so down on this game is because of how insanely "up" on the game some people are.

I've been at this site a pretty long time, and while there were plenty of people who weren't huge fans of the game here, FFVII backlash didn't really start to crop up until around the time AC and a bunch of the VII spinoff games were announced. We got a huge wave of new members with Final Fantasy VII related names who did pretty much nothing except post about how FFVII was the greatest game the world had seen and how Sephiroth was the world's greatest villain and how Cloud was so badass and Tifa was so hot, and they managed to post about this in threads everywhere on the forum. It pushed a lot of people over from "eh this was okay" to "I HATE THIS GAME", myself included, and it even pushed a good chunk of fans over to "eh this was okay".

I don't genuinely hate this game (although I certainly felt like I did for a while), but I'll never understand why so many people seem to react to this the way they do. This wasn't my first RPG, but I don't think the first game I played in any given genre is my favorite in that genre, so I don't really understand that either. I really enjoyed the first disc of this game, but the story pretty quickly went downhill after that, and for quite a while towards the end I was pretty much forcing myself to keep playing so that I could say I'd beaten it and because I was hoping that it'd have a really good ending. I don't think I'll ever be as disappointed with an ending as I was with FFVII's, and probably the biggest thing I don't "get" about rabid fans of the game is why anyone would want to play a game that long for an ending like that. For a long while I was convinced that I hadn't gotten the full ending or something.

In spite of how annoyed and bewildered I often am with the game's fandom, I am grateful the game was so popular, because so many less mainstream titles were translated because of it. It did start some pretty bad trends, but I'm willing to deal with needing to check gamefaqs if it means more niche titles come out here. I only wish Pokemon's success had meant tons of weird Japanese games with animals like Linda Cube Again had come out here. ; ;

Anyways, to answer the original question- the reason people are so down on this game is because of how insanely "up" on the game some people are.


I can't even begin to say how true that is and that's what I try to get people to realize. I think the game is good and I very much appreciate what it did for my favorite genre of games, but the type of people that like it SO much and don't even acknowledge how incredible (for me) FF8's story was, how good FF9 was and how well developed Kuja's character was (much better then Sephiroth, who I do think is really cool to), and how 10-2 although didn't have a really good story, still had a very good battle system, and truly wasn't that bad.

Also (this is a big issue), Square Enix keeps shoving FF7 down people's throats with their constant spin-offs that (besides Crisis Core) haven't been doing so well and for people who like other FFs more or even a little bit more and see them not getting their spin-offs and movies starts to bother us and creates the FF7 backlash (much like you said.)

I think any arguments about FF7 can be solved with that paragraph...

They might was well make FF7 porno movies, games and cartoons. At least you can fap to it and you get something out of it. ;)

They might was well make FF7 porno movies, games and cartoons. At least you can fap to it and you get something out of it. ;)

I'm sure they have FF7 Hentai somewhere lol. (not going to look...)

Of course they do. Just type in "tifa" or "aerith" in google image search with the safety filters off.

I'm sure they have FF7 Hentai somewhere lol. (not going to look...)

I am talking about SquareEnix producing that stuff. :D

But yeah, I have yet to find a picture of Tifa being milked, as a symbol of FF7 being milked for all its worth. ;)

I like that image. And if I were better at fanart, I'd make it. Anyone here wanna make that? I wanna see that.

I could do that lol

But I'm not sure I feel compelled to do it. :/

I am pretty sure I have seen an image like that before, and it was done in an ironic sense in that it is intended purely to give viewers a boner instead of making a symbolic statement.

I wanna see a statement image.

This is strictly my opinion and doesn't have much of anything to do with the actual plot twist debate, but when something is heavily foreshadowed in the story and it's pretty easy to guess that that's what's coming, I never personally see it as a plot twist. Just a hokey WHAT A TWIST moment. Obviously "can Ndi spot the twist coming" isn't the definition of a plot twist, but I guess what I'm getting at is that even if something fits the technical definition of a plot twist, I don't think many people who aren't surprised by it would really think of it as one.


I see what you're saying and that's a fair point.

It's a pretty likely bet, seeing as I've only played the game through once the amount of time ago I did, that I've missed or forgotten something important which may have suggested Aeris's death was hinted at alot more obviously beforehand than I've picked up on. I'll have to replay it again at some stage to see if that's the case.

The main hint towards Aeris' death, as I recall, is a scene in the Gold Saucer where Cait Sith joins you after predicting 'what you pursue will be yours, but you will lose something dear'. I don't remember it being hinted at after that.

That's assuming Ndi was talking about Aeris' death; she may have just been referring to plot twists in general.

Remember the dream sequence in which Aeris says "And let me handle Sephiroth!"? And how afterwards, Sephiroth tells Cloud that they need to deal with her? I think that's pretty obvious; Aeris has a plan for saving the planet by herself, but if she succeeds, then there's no more game left for the remaining two disks you have to play through.

Right, right. I had forgotten that scene. It's been a few years since I last played it.

And later on, Cloud says something like "This is what Aeris meant. She know about the White Materia, and what she had to do. ... Aeris's prayer, Holy, has reached the Planet. But... something's blocking it..."

Ha ha ha.

Keep going on like that and you'll finally narrow down the so called "many plot holes" to a single one.

But I'll keep that one for an other date. :P

The plot holes mostly come at the end, and they only really point to the fact that the release of the game was rushed; a fact that most people know anyway.

Ha ha ha.

Keep going on like that and you'll finally narrow down the so called "many plot holes" to a single one.

But I'll keep that one for an other date. :P

What? People are debating plot twists, not plot holes.

I was just talking about plot twists in general- I'm sorry if I was at all unclear! Since I'm on the pc for a limited amount of time these days, I've been rushing a lot of my replies.

Anyways, what I was basically trying to say is that I think to a certain extent, plot twists are subjective. Obviously, something has to meet certain conventions to be a plot twist at all, but I think something can be a plot twist for one person and not for another.

To use another famous plot twist as an example, take Planet of the Apes. If you watch the movie without picking up on the signs of what the real end is, you think the main character is stranded on some awful planet inhabited by apes, and expect him to reach his goal of escaping the planet and returning home. When you see the ending, it's absolutely a twist- this changes what you thought was happening throughout the movie and what you expected the outcome to be.

If you watch it and figure out pretty early on that he's on Earth, when you get to the Statue of Liberty in the sand, it wouldn't be a twist at all. Since you would've been perceiving things as they were through the whole movie, seeing the main character figure that out wouldn't change anything for you.

I'm sure I'm still being pretty unclear, but that's the gist of what I was trying to get at with the plot twist stuff. I'm not really comfortable debating what is and isn't a plot twist in FFVII because I haven't played it in years and I'm a little fuzzy on some specifics storywise- I'd completely forgotten about Cait Sith saying that, as an example.

You know, believe it or not, I was actually being kind of nice to you. But I guess you wouldn't know that, being totally unfamiliar with the community.

Well geez, I'm sorry to have not taken your grace your majesty. Is this a message board, or some sort of kingdom? If I don't like something someone has said to me, I will let you know. And yes, of course this community knows more than I do, I'm only one person.

So what? That doesn't prove or disprove a thing about you. Lots of fankids try to cover up their bias with admissions of fault.

I'm gonna use your logic now. You don't know me. You called me a fanboy right from the get-go based on absolutely nothing. God forbid someone sticks up for FFVII, because if they do, they're automatically a fanboy. You jump to conclusions too soon, methinks.

In that case, I challenge you to find a single fault, just one glaring flaw, in Super Mario Brothers.

Too short; too easy. Yes, I grew up with this one.

The first thing that comes to mind is the practice of burying stuff in a game so that most people will never be able to find its secrets without the use of a guide, effectively milking hapless gamers for everything they're worth. And coincidentally (yeah right) enough, FFVII was also the first game to have a strategy guide marketed aggressively alongside the game itself.

I'm not going to sit here, and act like I'm superior and say "I found everything on my own", but the sidequests were optional. You did not have to breed chocobos to beat the game. You do realize that FFVII was going to be the first RPG for many, so it's understandable that they would market the guide even in their own instruction booklet. It's a business, they're going to suck the game dry no matter what. This game did not somehow create the trend of game guides. If you actually believe that, you are out your mind. Sounds like someone got suckered into actually buying one of those stupid Brady game guides(which contained some wrong information).

I remember playing SMB3 when it was new, and it wasn't easy to know where the whistles were, and all the other secrets. I had a friend who had the Nintendo Power mag, though. The fact of the matter is that there were games before this one that required outside help. I haven't even mentioned Zelda. It wasn't exactly easy to figure out all the secrets in that one either, without PURCHASING A NINTENDO POWER MAGAZINE(or at least had a friend who had it). Hmm...seems like other companies used this tactic too...way back in the 80's. Back then, we didn't even have the internet. Last I checked, the internet was running back in 1997. The original Zelda buried a lot of crap, too. Unless you actually just sat there burning every bush, and trying to bomb every wall that you see...you had no idea where the secrets were.

You're absolutely right about it popularizing the genre of Jap pseudo-RPG adventure games, but that came about as a result of the game being piss easy and marketed heavily in the mainstream, not as a result of actual quality.

I agree, FFVII is pretty damn easy. That's why I said it's a great starting RPG.

Actually, giving you the opportunity to drop the matter was more of a gift to you than anything else. Too bad you don't know me well enough to realize that I'm well-known for effectively debating gaming issues. In fact, it's safe to say that I'm the central figure on the anti-FFVII bandwagon, having been one of the first, and certainly the most effective and tireless participant in the ongoing debate.

You're right, I don't know you. That also means I'm going to treat you like I would treat anybody else. Just because you have X number of posts, or have been posting here since X year, I'm not going to treat you any differently. You're not an emperor, and I really don't give a **** how long you've been "owning" people on the subject of FFVII. Saying that, the game was a success for a reason. It was fun, and I know I'm not going to change your mind, but you should at least respect and not criticize others who may have enjoyed this game. I get the feeling that you think you're better than those who say this is their favorite Final Fantasy. There's no shame in it. Not everybody you encounter on this earth is going to think like you, and fortunately for the sake of humanity, that is a good thing.

I don't know about you, but I hate making enemies even if it's on the internet. The thing is, you come off very high and mighty and act like your own crap doesn't stink. It's that reason why I got a little offended and retaliated right away. Just because you have a reputation for being a vet and an owner of "FVII fanboys" doesn't mean you can treat people like absolute crap.

i said the exact same comment as garlic to prat not 20 min. ago...can he be overruled or kicked off his high horse?

Hasn't it occurred to you that if you'd taken more time to think about what kind of threads tend to be appreciated here, rather than go with posting the first thing that comes into your head, before making one maybe you wouldn't be getting the kind of treatment you are?

It's pretty arrogant to join a website community, and assume you know more about the way things work than the people who've been here longer. So it's not really surprising you're getting rude responses.

DESTROY THE TYRANT.

WHICH ONE?

I love this game. In fact, I stick my 3 inch penis in each disc every night before I fall asleep.

That would really hurt. A lot.

WHICH ONE?



This one.

i said the exact same comment as garlic to prat not 20 min. ago...can he be overruled or kicked off his high horse?

Get AIDS and die.

I noticed the reason why people here seem to hate FFVII so much is just because of the fact that people love it so much, which is a pretty stupid and narrow-minded reason to hate a game. No offense.

I can understand how over-praise for games or anime can kill them and I've always understood where one would come from there (which is why I sorta been avoiding the Naruto craze). But that doesn't mean you should just shut out trying the video game out just because of the large fan-base. The same goes for me and the Naruto anime too; I would at least give the anime a shot one of these days when I have the time.

And it's true a lot of us love FFVII because it was our very first RPG ever and sometimes I wish people here would just accept that fact.

I'm sure there would be some reasons to hate a video game, but to just say they hate something just because so many people like it, is pretty stupid. At least that's the interpretation I got here of the regular shriners and if my interpreations are incorrect, I apologize.

I just read this entire thread...


I have a headache.

I noticed the reason why people here seem to hate FFVII so much is just because of the fact that people love it so much, which is a pretty stupid and narrow-minded reason to hate a game. No offense.

Again, most people do not hate the game at all, FOR THE LAST TIME (as I have had to say it before a million times) We hate THE FANBOYS and their moronic worship of the game, we use them for cheap laughs and nothing more. I have no problem with people who like the game who don't worship it.

I'd quote the rest of your post, but what I said applies to pretty much all of it. So, apology accepted.

Again, most people do not hate the game at all, FOR THE LAST TIME (as I have had to say it before a million times) We hate THE FANBOYS and their moronic worship of the game, we use them for cheap laughs and nothing more. I have no problem with people who like the game who don't worship it.

I'd quote the rest of your post, but what I said applies to pretty much all of it. So, apology accepted.

I must say this clears things up at least ;).

As I've said, I do apologize for my misinterpretations, but seeing at the end of your post, I'm glad you understand the apology :). I do understand where you guys are coming from on the moronic worship part.

No matter how good a video game, anime, movie, TV Show etc. is, worship over it is a bit much. No matter how good entertainment is rapidly worshiping it is overdoing it so I see where you're coming from there. I'm an FFVII nut, but I don't worship the game either, lol.

With that said, I'm glad my apology is accepted ^^.

Now dont kill me, but this is my favourite ff game
It was the first ff i ever played and i loved every moment of it. The characters are some of the most memorable out of any game made and on top of that there's the fact that it is one of (if not the) most commercially succesful game of the series. You also cant ignore the fact that it has created an entire series of games by itself, clearly this idicates some dort of greatness. The thing which i loved most about this game though is the storyline. Its so immersive that the first time i went through the game i didnt want to stop playing.
Admitedly though the game has problems, the plot (no matter how much i love it) can get very shakey at times (is it me or does the Temple of the Ancients just suddenly become important in the story line?) and it can get really annoying sometimes. I didnt have a full grasp of what the game was all about until i started to read forums. Also, it can be a very easy game if you know what you're doing...but then again i suppose its the same case for all final fantasy games.
Anyhoo, everyone is entitled to their opinions and this is mine so dont be too mean.

Now dont kill me, but this is my favourite ff game

I have just sent the hitmen.

Actually, I like that you appreciate the distinction between calling a game your favorite and saying that it's the best. Further illustrating that example is the fact that I enjoyed the game very much, but I don't think it's actually very good.



It was the first ff i ever played and i loved every moment of it. The characters are some of the most memorable out of any game made and on top of that there's the fact that it is one of (if not the) most commercially succesful game of the series.

I disagree with you about the characters. State why you found them to be so memorable. The game's financial success should not be closely attributed to its quality; most of us here that don't like the game and/or think it sucks bought a copy in the first place. Prak uses his CDs as coasters, as a matter of fact.


You also cant ignore the fact that it has created an entire series of games by itself, clearly this idicates some dort of greatness.

Ok, I don't mean to be mean here, but you really need to proofread your posts for typos. It's very hard to take you seriously when you say the word "dort." It just looks so funny. If you don't believe me, say it out loud.


The thing which i loved most about this game though is the storyline. Its so immersive that the first time i went through the game i didnt want to stop playing.

Simply be more specific.



Admitedly though the game has problems, the plot (no matter how much i love it) can get very shakey at times (is it me or does the Temple of the Ancients just suddenly become important in the story line?) and it can get really annoying sometimes.

This is exactly what's wrong with the plot, and that's a good point about Temple of the Ancients that nobody really brought up yet. This is the first specific example you've used, and it goes against what you're trying to argue.


I didnt have a full grasp of what the game was all about until i started to read forums. Also, it can be a very easy game if you know what you're doing...but then again i suppose its the same case for all final fantasy games.

The excessive easiness factor was more of an issue with FFVII than with others IMO, although not as much as FFVIII. I don't really criticize the game so much on those grounds, but there are other flaws in the gameplay, such as the fact that you're forced to waste limit breaks or stop attacking when you get a limit break against sucky enemies, and the fact that materia gives you stat penalties. And in general, the way materia devalues the individuality of your characters to the point that switching your party pretty much only involves exchanging materia.


Anyhoo, everyone is entitled to their opinions and this is mine so dont be too mean.

I was about as unmean as anybody will be in reply. Try to use more specific examples if you want to discuss the quality of the game, but if you're simply stating that it's your favorite, it's fine just to say what you enjoyed about it. It's good that you don't think that a game's quality is indicated entirely by the base enjoyment factor of a not-so-random sample of fanboys.

I have just sent the hitmen.

i lol'd

And in general, the way materia devalues the individuality of your characters to the point that switching your party pretty much only involves exchanging materia.

Eh, while this is true, you could say pretty similar things about FFVI- while each character does have their own special move, you can make just about anyone the sort of character you want them to be just by leveling them with the right magicite. Or, you could be a dork like me and teach every character every spell in the game. ;)

With the exception of FFV, I don't find any of the Final Fantasy games to be very hard, though FFI certainly can be hard depending on how you choose to play it. I can think of challenging parts in a lot of the other games, but they're generally optional.

smariman- can you clarify what you mean by creating an entire series of games by itself? Do you mean the spin-offs?

With the exception of FFV, I don't find any of the Final Fantasy games to be very hard, though FFI certainly can be hard depending on how you choose to play it. I can think of challenging parts in a lot of the other games, but they're generally optional.


FF3, the original, was hardest for me. I think it was because the four characters looked the same so I gave up. DS remake was tons o' fun though.

As for materia I generally assigned depending on what my opinion of the characters' obvious class was.

Eh, while this is true, you could say pretty similar things about FFVI- while each character does have their own special move, you can make just about anyone the sort of character you want them to be just by leveling them with the right magicite. Or, you could be a dork like me and teach every character every spell in the game. ;)

Yes, but in FFVI you can't instantly turn your character into an almost exact replica of another character that you just lost for plot-related reasons. It takes a long time to customize characters in FFVI, whereas in FFVII it occurs the moment you slap the materia on.


With the exception of FFV, I don't find any of the Final Fantasy games to be very hard, though FFI certainly can be hard depending on how you choose to play it. I can think of challenging parts in a lot of the other games, but they're generally optional.

Yeah, that's very true, but like I said, VII and VIII seem to be worse than the rest in this regard.

alrighty, first i need to make a few things clear:
this is in reply to FF1WithAllThieves
i'm new to this site so i didnt know about the degree of accuracy required and i still dont know how to quote properly
i was in a rush earlier so i didnt have any time to read through my post

now on to the actual thing:
thank you for being so kind, i've seen some pretty vicious post while reading through different posts.

"I disagree with you about the characters. State why you found them to be so memorable."

I found the characters memorable primarily because they each have varying and well established back stories and personalities. Each character offers different attributes to the game meaning that a greater amount of gamers are able to relate to the game depending on what they are looking for
e.g
Yuffie is fun (or atleast she is supposed to be fun, i'm sure i'm not the only person who sometimes finds her annoying) and energetic while Cloud is reserved and brooding.
Also, many of my friends (all ff haters) know the names of the characters...i know this seems pretty pointless to you but it is relevant to me.

"The game's financial success should not be closely attributed to its quality"

While it may be true that commercial success doesnt necessarily indicate quality, i decided to include it to back up my arguement as good things (tend!) to sell better than poor things.

Now for the storyline. In my opinion, the pace of the games stays at an enjoyable and consistant standard from the beginning to the end of the game. This means the storyline is carried well and doesnt get boring. I suppose the main reason for why i find it immersing is that much of it is implicit, allowing the gamer to speculate on the deeper meanings of the game.
e.g
Who is Sephiroth and how is he connected to Cloud? this question is answered in small segments throughout the game allowing to gamer to keep guessing at the answer and giving them a reason to complete the game.
Who does Cloud love? there are some entire threads dedicated to this and its a constant source of arguement and speculation.
What is the promised land? everyone has an opinion on this but it hasnt really been answered yet. You also wont need to look too hard to find a discusion on this topic.

"but there are other flaws in the gameplay, such as the fact that you're forced to waste limit breaks or stop attacking when you get a limit break against sucky enemies, and the fact that materia gives you stat penalties."

I disagree with you on the flaws in the gameplay. While it may be true that the limit system can get irritating, i believe it offers an extra piece of strategy to the game. I believe that the fact you must choose between wasting away powerful attacks or to stop using attacks means you need to think more closely to how you play the game. In addition to this, i think that if materia didnt give you stat penalties then the game would be much too easy, this way you need to think about how you equip and structure your materia instead of going gung-ho whith 1 character.

oh, and in reply to Ndi, i was talking about the spin off games and films ( it stands at 2 films and 3 games i think). The only other games to have sequels are ff10 and ff12.

Now dont kill me, but this is my favourite ff game


did you even read my post?

Despite what everyone say about this game, i still love it! mwahahaha!

dicks in my dick

If you'll admit that the collective knowledge of the community is greater than your own, why do you insist on claiming that the community is wrong for ragging on FFVII as much as we do? That is actually a rhetorical question. There is no correct answer that will not make you look dumb, so I advise you to leave it alone.



I called you a fanboy because you felt like just had to come in here and stick up for the game in a community full of people you don't know who don't care about you and are not likely at all to listen to you. You blathered about what it did for RPGs and garbage like that that has nothing to do with the game's actual quality, made silly and easily disprovable claims about the characters and supposed plot twists in the game, and you tossed in mention of how much you'd like a remake.

If it looks like a fanboy, talks like a fanboy, and reacts venomously to the merest hint of criticism like a fanboy, it's a fanboy.



You must be fucking kidding. I am not even going to dignify this with a serious response. Someone else can feel free to pick up the slack here and insult him for this claim though.



No, but you did have to do it to acquire the most powerful summon. You also had to do some pretty silly things to get some of the most powerful weapons, and know exactly what to say to the optional characters to get them to join, etc. These are things that require either a massive amount of trial and error or are just buried too deeply to even hope to accomplish without a guide.



Squaresoft didn't know that when they developed it. Besides, introductory level games typically have a far simpler design than most other games in their genres.



Of course I don't believe it was the first game to have guide or something silly like that. However, it was the game that cemented the idea in a great many people's heads that you needed a guide to play games.



Using warp whistles in SMB3 was basically equal to a cheat code. It was never meant to be a part of the core gameplay mechanic - it is simply a sanctioned exploit, similar in nature to infinite ammo codes in shooters or the famous Konami code - as opposed to those elements in FFVII and many subsequent games that tie directly into the core gameplay.



True enough, and I've griped about that also. However, it is impossible to deny, at least with any sense of reason, that FFVII and its lucrative strategy guide sales were directly related to the popularization of that despicable tactic among developers/publishers.



No comment here, as there is no future in arguing here for either of us. I'll just make my standard comment about the game not really being an RPG and misrepresenting the genre to countless people who weren't familiar with it in the first place.

You're right, I don't know you. That also means I'm going to treat you like I would treat anybody else. Just because you have X number of posts, or have been posting here since X year, I'm not going to treat you any differently. You're not an emperor, and I really don't give a **** how long you've been "owning" people on the subject of FFVII.

I never said you should care. I was just giving you an idea of what kind of person you're dealing with and what would be required of you to keep pace. You're not doing a very good job so far, I'm afraid.



Yes, but not the ones you want to believe. It success is based on two factors:

One is the hype machine. The game was advertised heavily on tv, and the ads generally only showed the eye-popping FMV scenes.

Two is word of mouth. A lot of people who had never owned a game console before bought a PS1, and those people were indoctrinated early on with the notion that games are more fun when they're easy. They blew through the game, got caught up in the shallow story and fell into the trap of believing the pathetic characters actually had depth due to the avatar effect, and went around telling other people who wouldn't know better how great it was.



Entirely subjective. Therefore, discounted.



I don't criticize people for liking the game. I criticize them for not knowing what they're talking about. And for your information, a good many of my favorite people here like the game, and I even enjoyed most of the time I spent playing it, although it made me want to vomit by the time I reached the end.



I don't make myself anyone's enemy or regard anyone else as an enemy. If someone wants to regard me as an enemy, that's their prerogative, and I'll simply respond in kind to their aggressive actions.



That's called being self-confident. Once upon a time, when civilization was more sane, it was regarded as a good thing.



I give people nothing more or less than what I think they've earned. If you make coherent and well-reasoned points, I will be very likely to reply in an inoffensive manner, even if I disagree.

Perhaps if you had a bit more self-confidence of your own, you wouldn't become defensive at the drop of a hat.



You are the worst sort of moronic fanboy. Fuck off and die in a fire.[/QUOTE]








================================================== ======


I just grabbed a random amount of shit you typed simply to call you out on your actual degree of intelligence.

I think you make shitty points. I think you have shitty theories. I think you wear a grandiose persona on your sleeve.

You sir, actually lack any reflective characteristics; and exist in a somewhat fictional world simply because of your lack of extroversion.

The way you are, I can infact relate with. I actually see my ignorance in the pomposity of your words.

Simply put, there exists several flaws in your logic. You see flaws in others, I see flaws in myself. Or in this case, you...

You should talk less.

And for the record: I never bought a guide for this game. I never beat the game. I had never seen a commercial for this game. And I certainly never felt the need that I should buy strategy guides because this game "cemented" the seeds for that perverse concept into my mind. I loved final fantasy 7.

The only games I would even consider buying a strategy guide for are RTS games and other competitive genres. Buying a strategy guide for an RPG would ruin the entire concept of exploration and adventure. I would support trial and error over such an operation, or deal with the consequences. And did.

The end result? I fucking loved the game. The movie sucked. Life goes on, amazingly.

oops double post for some odd reason.

triple post hahahahahhaha

Do you realize that you just not only double-posted, but triple-posted? Do you also realize that after quoting that entire thing, and posting your own long-winded reply that you've just seriously decreased your chances that anyone is going to care enough to read your post? Do you also realize that you are responding to something that was apparently posted at least a page back, possibly more, and nobody really gives a flying pig anymore?

*ends the beating of a dead horse* j/k lol XD.


Flying pig, lol XD. I just think the drama is just getting out of hand, lol.

Now please don't take this as FFVII defense, but isn't the bashing just like beating a dead horse at this point? I'm not trying to come here and just tell the regulars how to be, but with all due respect bashing the same game for more than three years is just wasted energy no? Heaven forbid, when we kept bashing the Resident Evil films on cosplay.com for almost a year, we thought that was like beating a dead horse at that point. But that's just us at that forum. Even for an FFVII fan the bashing for three years straight is a bit much don'cha think? lol

But that's just my input and personal opinion. But if it's tradition to bash FFVII on a forum I'm okay with that too, because to each forum their own and to each his/her own. Just like I said, I'm not here to tell everyone how to be. I just wanted to give my little opinion and you guys have yours and that's okay too ;).

~Dot

alrighty, first i need to make a few things clear:
this is in reply to FF1WithAllThieves
i'm new to this site so i didnt know about the degree of accuracy required and i still dont know how to quote properly
i was in a rush earlier so i didnt have any time to read through my post

Just hit the quote button on the bottom of the post, and to split it up, surround each quote with [/quote] on the back and
on the front. You can also highlight the text you want to quote and click the little speech bubble on the top toolbar.

[QUOTE]now on to the actual thing:
thank you for being so kind, i've seen some pretty vicious post while reading through different posts.

I figured it'd be more helpful if I give you a chance to explain your point of view more thoroughly.


I found the characters memorable primarily because they each have varying and well established back stories and personalities. Each character offers different attributes to the game meaning that a greater amount of gamers are able to relate to the game depending on what they are looking for
e.g

Ah, but the fact that people can relate to the characters does not mean that they are properly developed. I'll explain in a moment.


Yuffie is fun (or atleast she is supposed to be fun, i'm sure i'm not the only person who sometimes finds her annoying) and energetic while Cloud is reserved and brooding.

But these are two incredibly simple and stereotyped character traits. Notice that there's someone very near to exactly like Yuffie in many other games. This is because she's a stereotype: the spunky, cute, and mischievous female youth that also packs quite a punch. The reason people can relate to her is because there isn't much else to her personality. And as for a backstory, all you really find out is that her father is Godo and that she's angry that he turned Wutai into a tourist trap. You don't really learn anything about her character beyond her most obvious traits.

The same applies to Cloud, he isn't anything OTHER than reserved and brooding. Nearly all of Cloud's backstory is actually Zack's, and when you finally do get Cloud's backstory, you still don't learn much about what he's like.

Aeris and Cait Sith actually DO undergo character development, but they both die, and the one that comes back doesn't get much spotlight afterwards.


Also, many of my friends (all ff haters) know the names of the characters...i know this seems pretty pointless to you but it is relevant to me.

This really just means that the game is referenced in a large number of areas, which is not necessarily indicative of the quality of character development.


While it may be true that commercial success doesnt necessarily indicate quality, i decided to include it to back up my arguement as good things (tend!) to sell better than poor things.

People buy Hummers. People are stupid.


Now for the storyline. In my opinion, the pace of the games stays at an enjoyable and consistant standard from the beginning to the end of the game. This means the storyline is carried well and doesnt get boring. I suppose the main reason for why i find it immersing is that much of it is implicit, allowing the gamer to speculate on the deeper meanings of the game.
e.g
Who is Sephiroth and how is he connected to Cloud? this question is answered in small segments throughout the game allowing to gamer to keep guessing at the answer and giving them a reason to complete the game.
Who does Cloud love? there are some entire threads dedicated to this and its a constant source of arguement and speculation.

As for asking who Sephiroth is, the game does a rather sloppy job of presenting that question. For example, remember when Cloud says that Sephiroth must be alive because "Only Sephiroth can use that sword." This makes absolutely no sense; Sephiroth is believed to be dead, but somebody got stabbed by an excessively long katana, so he must be alive. Furthermore, none of the characters that don't really know anything about Sephiroth ever bother to ask who he is and what his significance is. Also, Cloud's backstory involving Sephiroth does not indicate in any way that Sephiroth is going to destroy the planet. Sephiroth is just this one guy that wants to take over the world for the Ancients (supposedly,) so that means he's a threat to the planet? Sure enough, as the party leaves Midgar, Cloud says "Sephiroth is alive... I have to settle the score."
Barret: "Will that save the planet?"
Cloud: "It seems so."
Barret: "Then, I'm in!"
This conclusion really doesn't make sense.
Cloud's love interest is also presented rather minimally and badly. Cloud never says anything personal or expresses any kind of personal relationship with either Tifa or Aeris. Their relationship never goes beyond chit-chat until the date scene, and even then, the date doesn't seem to be taken too seriously (especially if it's with Barret).


What is the promised land? everyone has an opinion on this but it hasnt really been answered yet. You also wont need to look too hard to find a discusion on this topic.

There is no reason they should have left this in the open. In fact, the reason they did it was because production of the game was rushed and they left a lot of questions unanswered that they didn't mean too. If you want to leave something in the open at the end, you have to refer to it again and act as though it's important. Really, the game pretty much forgets about the Promised Land after disk 1, unless you consider the Crater to be the Promised Land, in which case it isn't open-ended at all.


I disagree with you on the flaws in the gameplay. While it may be true that the limit system can get irritating, i believe it offers an extra piece of strategy to the game. I believe that the fact you must choose between wasting away powerful attacks or to stop using attacks means you need to think more closely to how you play the game.

Not much more closely. It just makes the limit breaks become either a nuisance or difficult to use properly. It doesn't really make the game more difficult.


In addition to this, i think that if materia didnt give you stat penalties then the game would be much too easy, this way you need to think about how you equip and structure your materia instead of going gung-ho whith 1 character.

The game is much too easy WITH the stat penalties. You can go gung-ho with all of your characters, and with a little well-placed levelling up and the right enemy skills, you can wipe the floor with all of the bosses. The stat penalties didn't really make the game difficult; they were just irritating.


oh, and in reply to Ndi, i was talking about the spin off games and films ( it stands at 2 films and 3 games i think). The only other games to have sequels are ff10 and ff12.

The existence of the spin-offs only indicates the game's popularity and lucrativeness.

I seem to be getting a lot of morons registering on here just to tell me off lately. It's pretty amusing.

The least he could do is actually try to construct a post, it's a mess of a post.

I seem to be getting a lot of morons registering on here just to tell me off lately. It's pretty amusing.

Lol. That is amusing and rather stupid just to register to defend the game and tell you off lol.

I mean, that's just wasted grudge energy and a waste of time their that they do that o__O.

I seem to be getting a lot of morons registering on here just to tell me off lately. It's pretty amusing.

If part of this was referring to me, my first post wasn't meant to tell you off, it was actually pretty much agreement + explanation of my point of view.

On topic a bit more, this game just isn't my style, but I don't really bother antihyping it so much as I wish they had based a game entirely in the setting of Midgar, because that was the one part I actually liked.

i though it was a great game. i just think thats its really overused. im excited for the rumored remake (although not confirmed i think itll comeout) other then that i wish square would let it rest.

and i think people are so down on it because simply how popular it is.
also games like ff6 and ff8 and ff4 get no attention because of it. and thoes games are a little more deserving

How many iterations of the same thread can we have? This topic is cawed over at least four times annually. Prak probably has a "FF7 point-counterpoint" document from which he copy/pastes his responses.

caw caw

i though it was a great game. i just think thats its really overused. im excited for the rumored remake (although not confirmed i think itll comeout) other then that i wish square would let it rest.

and i think people are so down on it because simply how popular it is.
also games like ff6 and ff8 and ff4 get no attention because of it. and thoes games are a little more deserving

Talking about remakes here is futile. Many people here will tell you that it's stupid to stick to the past, and that developers should try to move forwards rather than backwards.


But I'm a huge fan of some games from the past, and an eye/ear-candy lover. So seeing the SNES FFs in CG quality graphics and improved sound quality and overall presentation would be hugely appreciated. Just look at the CGs from FF IV DS, and tell me you wouldn't want to have the entire game made this way.

Of course, I'd rather they made a new game that looked like that AND toped FF IV and VI in characters and story. But lately, S-E hasn't done very good as far as those 2 criterias go.


I'd prefer having 3-4 remakes of great games in the lifespan of a system, rather than the same amount of garbage games with no souls.

Do you realize that you just not only double-posted, but triple-posted? Do you also realize that after quoting that entire thing, and posting your own long-winded reply that you've just seriously decreased your chances that anyone is going to care enough to read your post? Do you also realize that you are responding to something that was apparently posted at least a page back, possibly more, and nobody really gives a flying pig anymore?

That is fucking hilarious. because the last time i was signed in it only said i have made 2 posts... That is very funny.

Regardless, I don't care what you may consider irrelevant, I needed to say something to that guy and I hoped he'd read it, not you. Do you realize that I do not know or care to know about you? Good.

Do you realize that Prak does not know or care to know about you either? Good.

Prak has been dealing with idiot newbies longer than you, or even me. He doesn't give a black unicorn about your long-winded, rambling post.

Umm, in case you'd not noticed, Agent just happens to be one of the moderators in charge of this section. So unless you truly don't give a crap about getting banned from here at some point, you'd do well to consider that you're ignoring some of the site rules this community follow. That it's disrespectful to the site staff, and that rightfully you're being called on it, regardless of whatever personal issues you happen to have with someone.

I seem to be getting a lot of morons registering on here just to tell me off lately. It's pretty amusing.

Oh please, don't be too flattered my pretentious little masticater.
I am too lazy to look back on the registration dates of any of these other people. I simply stumbled into your mess. Granted, you have inspired me to make my first post on these forums, for I rather enjoy a good debate. However I am hardly an expert on FF7. I played it twice. Got to Sephiroth on both occasions, but never finished the task. I rather enjoy using my imagination. I thought the game was a great inspiration. It contained great music. Memorable characters. And many hours of game play. By my personal standerds the game was a success. However, I have always hated RPG battle systems. Even MMORPG's bore the life out of my soul.

Your disdain and endless battling will likely receive the same results as my own fights with any God fearing community have.

I simply request that you write me an essay, concerning your entire position, so that you would have to talk less; and, give me an opportunity to give you a proper rebutal, son. Because, I believe I could school you.

black unicorn

pun intended?

Oh god, this musicclord is cracking me up, big time.

Do you realize that Prak does not know or care to know about you either? Good.

Prak has been dealing with idiot newbies longer than you, or even me. He doesn't give a black unicorn about your long-winded, rambling post.

What does dealing with idiot newbies have to do with anything? I am by all means a newbie, I rarely ever post on forums of any sort. I am not attempting to deal with newbies.

Unless you were calling prak a newbie? or yourself? lol

Never knew you were an admin though. Not like you could ever stop me from making another account. Even if you could ban my IP address it would get you nowhere. I will make the statement right now...... I know I could bring this site down. I wont do that. Even if you ban me. I am a nice guy. I like most people there. I like everything this website stands for. Just reminding you, your jobs alot harder than mine.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Look at the big interweb baddass, does what he liks, NO ADMINS CAN STOP HIM! RUN, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

Just for the record, I didn't mean to imply you'd automatically get banned by anyone (as in right now) if that's what you assumed. Just that if you make a habit of addressing any of the site staff in that way whenever they point something valid out to you then that might be the eventual result.

No one has a problem with a member disputing or disagreeing with what another says, so long as it's done in a manner respectful to the community in general.

Just for the record, I didn't mean to imply you'd automatically get banned by anyone (as in right now) if that's what you assumed. Just that if you make a habit of addressing any of the site staff in that way whenever they point something valid out to you then that might be the eventual result.

Noted.

What does dealing with idiot newbies have to do with anything? I am by all means a newbie, I rarely ever post on forums of any sort. I am not attempting to deal with newbies.

Unless you were calling prak a newbie? or yourself? lol

Never knew you were an admin though. Not like you could ever stop me from making another account. Even if you could ban my IP address it would get you nowhere. I will make the statement right now...... I know I could bring this site down. I wont do that. Even if you ban me. I am a nice guy. I like most people there. I like everything this website stands for. Just reminding you, your jobs alot harder than mine.


Hahaha, I'd like to see you try and bring the site down. That's real funny *is being sarcastic*.

Also in case you haven't noticed, Prak is also a moderator here (not in this section, but in the Anime section of the boards, but what difference does it make). So now that makes two moderators that you're talking back to.

Oh please, don't be too flattered my pretentious little masticater.

If this misuse of vocabulary was deliberate and intended to be funny, it failed.


I am too lazy to look back on the registration dates of any of these other people. I simply stumbled into your mess. Granted, you have inspired me to make my first post on these forums, for I rather enjoy a good debate. However I am hardly an expert on FF7. I played it twice. Got to Sephiroth on both occasions, but never finished the task. I rather enjoy using my imagination. I thought the game was a great inspiration. It contained great music. Memorable characters. And many hours of game play. By my personal standerds the game was a success. However, I have always hated RPG battle systems. Even MMORPG's bore the life out of my soul.

There is a very miniscule amount of content in this post. Are you trying to argue anything at all here?


Your disdain and endless battling will likely receive the same results as my own fights with any God fearing community have.

This is a very stupid analogy. It bears no relevance whatsoever.


I simply request that you write me an essay, concerning your entire position, so that you would have to talk less; and, give me an opportunity to give you a proper rebutal, son. Because, I believe I could school you.

Prak has already made a large number of posts to the effect that FFVII is a crappy game. What makes you think he'll find it worthwhile to say everything yet another time to some noob? You're the challenger; either come up with your own essay or respond to posts he's made in other threads. And try to find one that's recent.

Also, you most definitely will not school Prak. He has far more talent with rhetoric than you do, based on my observation.

If this misuse of vocabulary was deliberate and intended to be funny, it failed.

It was deliberately independent of humor. You failed.


There is a very miniscule amount of content in this post. Are you trying to argue anything at all here?

A bit of an introduction and clarification on my position.


This is a very stupid analogy. It bears no relevance whatsoever.

Leaves you tired and frustrated that simple minds will adhere to their preconceived babel.


Prak has already made a large number of posts to the effect that FFVII is a crappy game. What makes you think he'll find it worthwhile to say everything yet another time to some noob? You're the challenger; either come up with your own essay or respond to posts he's made in other threads. And try to find one that's recent.

All worship the power of multple scattered posts...*sarcasm* Its hardly worth my own time to find these magical articles. I am not willing to do that. I would be willing to review a collection of more easily accessible opinions.


Also, you most definitely will not school Prak. He has far more talent with rhetoric than you do, based on my observation.

Ah, don't let my entire persona of sarcasm fool you that easily. Where does the definition of logic mention rhetoric?

Hahaha, I'd like to see you try and bring the site down. That's real funny *is being sarcastic*.

Also in case you haven't noticed, Prak is also a moderator here (not in this section, but in the Anime section of the boards, but what difference does it make). So now that makes two moderators that you're talking back to.


I am glad you clarified that it was sarcasm. For almost a second, I truly believed that you were stupid enough to want to see something so messy and illegal take place. For the record, I don't break laws... ^_^ so yea.. You won't be seeing me try anything.....

And, I had no idea Prak was a moderator. I love how he talks down on so many people though. Ahh, the smell of power. Reminds me of 1984....

I was meaner to people before I became a mod, thank you kindly, you obnoxiously pompous fool.

I have nothing to prove to the likes of you, so please feel free to fuck off and die in the nearest convenient fire.

Just for the record, I didn't mean to imply you'd automatically get banned by anyone (as in right now) if that's what you assumed. Just that if you make a habit of addressing any of the site staff in that way whenever they point something valid out to you then that might be the eventual result.

No one has a problem with a member disputing or disagreeing with what another says, so long as it's done in a manner respectful to the community in general.

Huh. Now I'd much rather not be flamed for asking this question but why did you choose to phrase your point that way? It seems to me that the hand-held pussy attitude (which developed into a quite humerous moron attitude) was a reaction to, let's face it, general - perhaps specific - users of this community acting like cunts.

I say "cunts" and not "meanies" because I presume that these users are not so childish and immature that they would dispute that they can at times act like cunts, nor so thin-skinned they would take this post the wrong way. So forgive my frankness.

Huh. Now I'd much rather not be flamed for asking this question but why did you choose to phrase your point that way? It seems to me that the hand-held pussy attitude (which developed into a quite humerous moron attitude) was a reaction to, let's face it, general - perhaps specific - users of this community acting like cunts.

I say "cunts" and not "meanies" because I presume that these users are not so childish and immature that they would dispute that they can at times act like cunts, nor so thin-skinned they would take this post the wrong way. So forgive my frankness.

*hastily gets out her flame thrower* :p

lol, you're right in pointing out I could've made my meaning clearer there. But was just making the general point that if he/she chooses to repeatedly tell mods their opinions aren't of interest, when mod in question makes a reasonable point - as in Agents case - not to expect the attitude to go tolerated on a long term basis.

I understand more clearly now, thank you for the civil reply.

No worries.

This really is a lovely forum! :D

It was deliberately independent of humor. You failed.

What did you mean by the word "masticate" if you weren't deliberately using the wrong vocabulary word for the sake of humor, then?


A bit of an unsuccessful introduction and clarification on my position.

Fixed.


Leaves you tired and frustrated that simple minds will adhere to their preconceived babel.

I'm afraid this sentence makes no sense.


All worship the power of multple scattered posts...*sarcasm* Its hardly worth my own time to find these magical articles. I am not willing to do that. I would be willing to review a collection of more easily accessible opinions.

My point is that Prak has discussed this topic to death, and it's hardly worth HIS time to provide such a collection.


Ah, don't let my entire persona of sarcasm fool you that easily. Where does the definition of logic mention rhetoric?

Where does the definition of logic bear any significance to anything remotely related to this thread? Rhetoric has everything to do with a debate, which is what I was referring to.

I was meaner to people before I became a mod, thank you kindly, you obnoxiously pompous fool.

I have nothing to prove to the likes of you, so please feel free to fuck off and die in the nearest convenient fire.


Who knew it would be so easy to find your myspace Prak...

You fooled me with your anime picture. I thought you'd be more young and handsome. LOL... Missing a little off the top? That's okay. Lots of old people are too.

I'm just gonna grab one random thing I can choose to criticize, and leave you alone. I don't think you want to be friends anyways. 17 good friends is enough, right?

" Would you buy a piece of productivity software that did not include an in-depth manual? Of course not. You'd be a fool to do so. So why is it done with games?"

"To answer my own question, it is because gamers are morons. It is not true of all, but many who play video games are intellectually deficient."

"If you read this and still buy another guide for such a game, then you should know that I regard you as an inferior form of life and wish you much unhappiness."


That is totally missing the bigger picture. You sound so excluded from reality and history. Do you know nothing about how everybody before you has made a dollar? The experienced own the inexperienced. The intelligent exploit the foolish. Where are your facts supporting that its just "... many who play video games are intellectually deficient." and simply not "Many who buy products..."?

I could say "Not everybody who sees a problem, tries to solve it with a stupid blog. It's true however, that many will try because they are very likely just another stupid human who should die soon."

Actually, I do say that about alot of people... Good thing your caucasian Prak.

:rolleyes:

What did you mean by the word "masticate" if you weren't deliberately using the wrong vocabulary word for the sake of humor, then?

Because, I wanted to give him something else to chew on. Go away please.




Fixed.

Great Job!



I'm afraid this sentence makes no sense.

I'm afraid I am not as ornery as you.


My point is that Prak has discussed this topic to death, and it's hardly worth HIS time to provide such a collection.

I proposed an essay with all of his glorious rhetoric, which would have been more efficient than multiple blog reposts to "newbs". After all, he had the time to make these opinions and refute with the "newbs". If only he was a bit more professional, maybe he would have writen a book?



Where does the definition of logic bear any significance to anything remotely related to this thread? Rhetoric has everything to do with a debate, which is what I was referring to.

I tend to refute with logic over rhetoric. I leave gapeng holes in my expressions, out of mindful negligence. I don't much care for pushing the limitations of language. Merely solving puzzles. The puzzle currently, is why would FF7 be such a focus point for ridicule. All I can tell, is the amount of irrational criticization over certain aspects of it. Only cared about by perfectionists who should spend there days doing something more productive.

Who knew it would be so easy to find your myspace ...

*sigh*

I don't hold out much hope this'll get listened to. But I'll give it a try.

Don't you think you've taken this pretty far by now? You say you appreciate this site for what it stands for. So why go bringing personal things up about a member which has no bearing on these things whatsoever. If you have a problem with something someone's said in relation to a thread subject, or even their attitude towards the community of this site that's one thing. But going to the trouble to find and quote stuff they've said on a separate site, and post it here in an attempt to make them look stupid, after they've already made it obvious they're ignoring you, only comes across as both attention seeking and desperate.

*sigh*

I don't hold out much hope this'll get listened to. But I'll give it a try.

Don't you think you've taken this pretty far by now? You say you appreciate this site for what it stands for. So why go bringing personal things up about a member which has no bearing on these things whatsoever. If you have a problem with something someone's said in relation to a thread subject, or even their attitude towards the community of this site that's one thing. But going to the trouble to find and quote stuff they've said on a separate site, and post it here in an attempt to make them look stupid only comes across as both attention seeking and desperate.


While I understand with where your coming from, I disagree with what you say.

Out of respect, I will stop. I actually think I have alot in common with Prak. Maybe I took it too far.

black unicorn
pun intended?
Well, certainly no racial remark intended or anything. :) Just another in my effort to come up with types of animals you'd be least likely to see to illustrate my points.

Because, I wanted to give him something else to chew on. Go away please.

Begging your pardon, but you called him a "pretentious little masticater." Referring to somebody as "one who chews" implies nothing related to giving them something to chew on. Really, it simply implies that he doesn't live off of an IV or a feeding tube. You're making stuff up after the fact to justify a deliberate misuse of a word for no good purpose.



Great Job!

The point my edit makes still stands, despite your powerfully effective sarcasm.



I'm afraid I am not as ornery as you.

I'm simply criticizing your posts. You're the one that degenerated to personal attacks.


I proposed an essay with all of his glorious rhetoric, which would have been more efficient than multiple blog reposts to "newbs". After all, he had the time to make these opinions and refute with the "newbs". If only he was a bit more professional, maybe he would have writen a book?

You have no room to talk about being professional when you don't proofread your posts. And you still haven't explained why you think he would find it worthwhile enough to bother with what you want him to do.


I tend to refute with logic over rhetoric. I leave gapeng holes in my expressions, out of mindful negligence. I don't much care for pushing the limitations of language. Merely solving puzzles. The puzzle currently, is why would FF7 be such a focus point for ridicule. All I can tell, is the amount of irrational criticization over certain aspects of it. Only cared about by perfectionists who should spend there days doing something more productive.

Rhetoric is the presentation of that logic. Prak is significantly more skilled at it than you are, so he would wipe the floor with you in a debate. Pushing the limitations of language? The skill with which you present and communicate your ideas is quite significant in any kind of debate.

The criticism of the game occurs as a response to people that come here and posts things along the lines of "You can't say anything bad about this game because I have the right to think it's good" (paraphrased for comprehensibility). The reason we criticize specific points is to illustrate the games flaws and demonstrate why the game is not as good as many people claim it to be.

I actually think I have alot in common with Prak.

ROFL! You can only wish, kiddo. ;)

Begging your pardon, but you called him a "pretentious little masticater." Referring to somebody as "one who chews" implies nothing related to giving them something to chew on. Really, it simply implies that he doesn't live off of an IV or a feeding tube. You're making stuff up after the fact to justify a deliberate misuse of a word for no good purpose.

I rather enjoyed the connotations with which that word brings to Praks identity...


The point my edit makes still stands, despite your powerfully effective sarcasm.

Yes, another great point. It's true. Humans have flaws.



I'm simply criticizing your posts. You're the one that degenerated to personal attacks.

Why must it be characterized with such negativity. Would you say, that America degenerated to bombing Iran, after finding no wmd's in Afghanistan?

Some would perhapes. I would disagree.

And I can already hear your sniveling little remarks about the continued unrelated comments I keep feeding you. I would rather shoot myself in the head than listen to you babel on and on. All you do is say things I probably already know.


You have no room to talk about being professional when you don't proofread your posts. And you still haven't explained why you think he would find it worthwhile enough to bother with what you want him to do.

Because I want to experience what he is capable of. Not of what you claim he is. Which I am unbelievabley tired of hearing from you.


Rhetoric is the presentation of that logic. Prak is significantly more skilled at it than you are, so he would wipe the floor with you in a debate. Pushing the limitations of language? The skill with which you present and communicate your ideas is quite significant in any kind of debate.

Granted, I am at a lack of experience compared to your liege; he is far from perfect. I am sorry for the miscommunication. You are mostly correct about rhetorics dependency with logic. However, I was talking specifically more about facts and demonstrable truths than fallible opinions and persuasion.


The criticism of the game occurs as a response to people that come here and posts things along the lines of "You can't say anything bad about this game because I have the right to think it's good" (paraphrased for comprehensibility). The reason we criticize specific points is to illustrate the games flaws and demonstrate why the game is not as good as many people claim it to be.

You may very well have a point that the game may not be what people claim it to be. But that probably has done nothing to change these peoples feelings of love and embellishment. The game had a powerful enchantment. You will never be able to justify or thwart that with rhetoric alone.

I would rather shoot myself in the head than listen to you babel on and on.
KEEP GOING, ALLTHIEVES.

well, this thread has certainly taken a turn for the hilarious.

are you done fapping over Prak now musiclord?

Despite common rumour, he isnt the lord Jesus Christ incarnate.

I just read the whole last 3 pages. I lol'd

I actually think I have alot in common with Prak.

Biggest miss I ever saw.

We're all morons when compared to lord almighty Prak. Won't even acknowledge my apology, or respond to my more recent post in which I debated about a possible plot twist with Caith Sith. You don't like responding to each post? That's fine and dandy, but I'm the one who started this damn topic, and our debate. If you're gonna respond at all, it should be to me. I tried apologizing, and getting back to the actual debate, but I get nothing. I just can't get the time of day...

As far as I'm concerned I hit the nail on the head with my Cait Sith plot-twist, and mr. egomaniac just does not want to admit it.

Garlic powder dude, no-one ever feels obliged to read every post in any thread in case they relate to them. Most people have lives outside the internet. If you so desperately want attention, bump your post a few times. (Though you might find attention seeking is a loathsome act in- and outside the weboblag.)

Tis true.

I cannot describe how hard I've laughed at this thread.

Just for the record, I really have nothing against this musiclord guy, and to be quite honest, I kind of like him. Of course, making fun of my pictures was a bit out of bounds, but I get worse than that from my younger brothers.

Garlic powder dude, no-one ever feels obliged to read every post in any thread in case they relate to them. Most people have lives outside the internet. If you so desperately want attention, bump your post a few times. (Though you might find attention seeking is a loathsome act in- and outside the weboblag.)

Thanks for stereotyping me as some typical nerd. Are you blind? I have been patiently waiting for well over a month now, and I created this topic even longer ago than that. I only have 12 posts counting this one, and I'm the one who needs to think outside the box and realize everyone on here has a life outside the internet(no kidding, why do you think it takes me forever to return to this place? I have my own life too). I don't want attention, I just want to be accepted.

Thanks for stereotyping me as some typical nerd. Are you blind? I have been patiently waiting for well over a month now, and I created this topic even longer ago than that.

So you waited an unreasonable amount of time over an issue that has been discussed to death in the past? What?


I only have 12 posts counting this one, and I'm the one who needs to think outside the box and realize everyone on here has a life outside the internet(no kidding, why do you think it takes me forever to return to this place? I have my own life too). I don't want attention, I just want to be accepted.

Why does it matter to you so badly to be accepted in this forum you probably would never care to contribute to? If it matters you that much, then maybe you should think before making stupid posts, or better yet, leave that dimly-lit basement of yours and enjoy some sunlight and real human contact.

I smell sockpuppets.

Why does it matter to you so badly to be accepted in this forum you probably would never care to contribute to? If it matters you that much, then maybe you should think before making stupid posts, or better yet, leave that dimly-lit basement of yours and enjoy some sunlight and real human contact.


I second that.


Thanks for stereotyping me as some typical nerd. Are you blind? I have been patiently waiting for well over a month now, and I created this topic even longer ago than that. I only have 12 posts counting this one, and I'm the one who needs to think outside the box and realize everyone on here has a life outside the internet(no kidding, why do you think it takes me forever to return to this place? I have my own life too). I don't want attention, I just want to be accepted.


No offense, but now you've just sunk to musiclords level. Accepted? By whom? The whole world? A certain type of society? If you want to be accepted why don't you try asking yourself what types of groups of people you want to be accepted by? First they gotta be ones you relate to of course.

I'm not trying to flame you here, but like Valerie said; why does it matter so much to be accepted in a forum you'll never contribute to or a forum of people you might not meet? If you really seek acceptance, I suggest you start out making friends off the internet and in person.

Also like Tsukanda said, most of us do have lives outside the internet.

Are you blind?
Yes, you insensitive fucker.

I liked FFVII, and especially the materia system. It's not my favorite though. I think everyone wouldn't be so down on it if people never tried to glorify it. "Quite possibly the greatest game ever made..." on the back of the CD case kind of hinted at that.

I rather enjoyed the connotations with which that word brings to Praks identity...

Name a male you know who does not masturbate.


Yes, another great point. It's true. Humans have flaws.

Dear lord, your incredible sarcasm has rendered me dumbstruck (and don't bother pointing out the obvious irony here; I am well aware of it).


Why must it be characterized with such negativity. Would you say, that America degenerated to bombing Iran, after finding no wmd's in Afghanistan?

An argument over an internet forum is different from trying to combat terrorism on a foreign battlefield.


And I can already hear your sniveling little remarks about the continued unrelated comments I keep feeding you. I would rather shoot myself in the head than listen to you babel on and on. All you do is say things I probably already know.

Well, then act upon your knowledge.


Because I want to experience what he is capable of. Not of what you claim he is. Which I am unbelievabley tired of hearing from you.

Do not take this personally, but the sexual overtones of that statement are so hilariously overpowering that I cannot help but point them out.

Anyway, my point was that he's grown weary of it and probably won't be willing to spell his points against the game out for you.


Granted, I am at a lack of experience compared to your liege; he is far from perfect. I am sorry for the miscommunication. You are mostly correct about rhetorics dependency with logic. However, I was talking specifically more about facts and demonstrable truths than fallible opinions and persuasion.

You said, rather specifically, that you would "take [him] to school" in a debate, under which circumstances rhetoric means everything. And I was far from intending to praise Prak; I simply didn't like your attitude.


You may very well have a point that the game may not be what people claim it to be. But that probably has done nothing to change these peoples feelings of love and embellishment. The game had a powerful enchantment. You will never be able to justify or thwart that with rhetoric alone.

But then, there are those of us who still play the game every so often because of that sense of enchantment yet accept that the game is highly flawed and severely overrated. Like me, f'rinstance.

Do not take this personally, but the sexual overtones of that statement are so hilariously overpowering that I cannot help but point them out.


Hahaha

(also not meaning any personal slight against anyone there, but really couldn't help it!)

This is getting good keep it going people my sides are starting to hurt

We are not perfoming monkeys in a circus you gob of shit.

Either join in the flamming of these n00bs or GTFO (:p)

Name a male you know who does not masturbate.



Dear lord, your incredible sarcasm has rendered me dumbstruck (and don't bother pointing out the obvious irony here; I am well aware of it).


An argument over an internet forum is different from trying to combat terrorism on a foreign battlefield.


Well, then act upon your knowledge.



Do not take this personally, but the sexual overtones of that statement are so hilariously overpowering that I cannot help but point them out.

Anyway, my point was that he's grown weary of it and probably won't be willing to spell his points against the game out for you.



You said, rather specifically, that you would "take [him] to school" in a debate, under which circumstances rhetoric means everything. And I was far from intending to praise Prak; I simply didn't like your attitude.



But then, there are those of us who still play the game every so often because of that sense of enchantment yet accept that the game is highly flawed and severely overrated. Like me, f'rinstance.

In all seriousness, I am indeed tired and busy with other issues in life that must be taken care of. I was simply having some fun. I enjoyed the conversation, but alas I am done talking to you after today.

Also, you may not like my attitude, but I was somewhat out of character. I'm not quite capable of schooling anybody, you are correct in your observation. Prak is indeed a skilled figure on the interweb. I am frankly quite relieved to see people like him dealing with newbs, if only it were done with a bit more attention to teaching others and not ridiculing them, but I can see the humor in it all.

My apologies to Prak for bringing up your myspace photo. I was out of line. I am glad you mentioned your brothers, because I was earnestly only teasing you in such a maner. I may revisit this site in the future, if only as a ghost. Good luck to you all and keep up your training with Master Prak.

In all seriousness, I am indeed ti(interrupted by loud fart)

Look who's got the last laugh!

Look who's got th(interrupted by loud fart)

Ohoho!

In all seriousness, I am indeed ti(interupted by loud fart)

LMAO!!

lolling

I've read through this entire thread out of pure boredom, and i was wondering where is there a plot hole in this game? I don't quite remember one. That's not to say that anyone is wrong, just that i don't remember it so please refresh my memory.

I completely understand your logic in despising fan boys, though it is even worse for me because this is a game that i very much enjoyed, and now it is being tarnished with spin off after spin off. It's like taking an antique piece of furniture and slapping some cheap paint from walmart on it (corny analogy but it gets the point across).

This would most likely be my favorite Final Fantasy if not for all the craze and bad spin offs. I still can't quite decide though as it has a chance yet.

VII was my first FF game, and I personally think it was a milestone not only for the RPG genre, but for gaming in general. Sure later entries in the franchise have improved many things, but for me, VII will always remain my favourite of the S-Generation. It's by no means a perfect game, and I can see how newcomers might scratch their head and wonder what all the fuss was about. If you don't like it, do fans really want to hear what's been said in this thread? No.

but alas I am done talking to you after today.

how long before he comes back?

I give him a week. Didn't PompousPilate do something very similar to this?

oh god, i remember him.

i dont think he came back though.

He was banned a few times, though. Does actually coming back from that count?

...moar liek Penis Fellate ollololol

lol funnie.

Mr. Seifer was more entertaining :D

I have no idea.

The game was good, but it wasn't that fucking good. The only reason I think the game should be recognized for is that it was the first Final Fantasy was on Playstation. Other than that, there's nothing amazing about it.

The story was good, but not as good a some of the other games.

This game broke my heart. I played it on PC and it crashed after about 1,872 hours of playing ... and I thought I was really getting somewhere! This was 11 years ago, so please don't ask me where I was!

I miss it, and really want to try and find a copy somewhere. But will I have the heart to start all over again? ???

Wow what kind of forum is it when the moderators of a forum treat members like shit... My first and last post i'm not coming back... I've read around five threads and all of them include some high and mighty member with forty billion posts telling how stupid the people are for posting it. Move out of your moms house.

Paraphrasing the words of Simon Cowell -- Would you rather be a member of a forum where they lie to you?

We don't treat all members like shit -- generally, just the ones that deserve to be.

P.S.: There are plenty of people here doing exactly the same thing that don't have 40 billion posts.

P.P.S.: What's that noise I'm hearing? Oh... yes. It's coming in clearly now. It's the sweet sound of the door hitting you on the way out, and us not caring.

Final Fantasy VII is legendary. The reason people look back and say they hate it so much now is because of because of it's infamy. If you're a gamer, you know what Final Fantasy VII is. I don't know why people are so hard on it.

And come on, wasn't the whole game worth the Honey-Bee Inn scenes? Hahaha, lol.

accept that the game is highly flawed and severely overrated

Overrated? maybe.... Highly flawed? no.

The game "Bad Boys: Miami Takedown" is highly flawed.

FFVII is slightly flawed.

Hi. You're dumb.

Don't double post. Also, anyone who calls FFVII legendary is in for nothing but abuse. Run while you can.

I'm just saying FFVII is infamous. People can abuse me all they want but it doesn't change the fact that I'm right. Can you name any other Final Fantasy game with as many spin-offs and extra media as FFVII? (remakes don't count) I doubt it.

Just face it, FFVII is massively popular and nostalgic... does that mean it's the greatest game ever made? No.

FFVII isn't my favorite, but I have to defend it from the extremely harsh and unfair criticism of it I see all over the internet daily.

What particular aspects of the criticism do you consider "extremely harsh and unfair?"

The only problem I see with calling Final Fantasy VII legendary is that it doesn't fit the exact definition.

"A legend or legend fragment is a meme that propagates through a culture. It may be crystallized in a literary work that fixes it and which affects the future direction it will take" (Legend, Wikipedia).

Though the definition could be manipulated to it the "Gamer" culture. A meme is any bit of cultural information that is transmitted from one person to another (Meme, Wikipedia). It's true that not all gamers know about Final Fantasy VII. But not all humans know about Hamlet, Vlad the Impaler, Beowulf, or the Philosopher's stone. Such animals as the sasquatch, Loch Ness monster, and the Chupacabra are "legends" in their own right. Therefore calling Final Fantasy VII "legendary" is not that far of a stretch.

Legend is taken from the Latin word legenda meaning "things to be read."


Anyway, from most people I have talked to, the main reasons that they didn't like Final Fantasy VII were that they graphics were horrible and Aeris died. I thought the story was complex and well thought out.

Well, actually I shouldn't have called it criticism (because that implies the person saying these things actually has intelligent points). It's more like the stupid fanboy ranting... actually most criticism of the game I agree with. I don't think it's perfect and it's definitely flawed.

The characters are mostly just archetypes, near the end of the game the characters aren't unique anymore, you know all that jazz.

However, I don't think it's a horrible game. It's just fine in my book.

Anyway, from most people I have talked to, the main reasons that they didn't like Final Fantasy VII were that they graphics were horrible and Aeris died. I thought the story was complex and well thought out.


You've never talked to the people here then. The common reasons for disliking the game around here are the incomplete and oft-incomprehensible story, flat and boring characters, broken gameplay systems, and other things of the sort that sensible people pick up on.

I don't remember having any trouble understanding the story. I really like creating stories, so when I think about it, I may have inserted a few points in the story without realizing it to make the story fit. I'd have to play through the game again to see if I actually inserted anything or not. I didn't have any problems with the characters themselves other than the lack of stated history. Like I said, I need to play through it again to determine whether or not I added a few things.

You've never talked to the people here then. The common reasons for disliking the game around here are the incomplete and oft-incomprehensible story, flat and boring characters, broken gameplay systems, and other things of the sort that sensible people pick up on.

Considering he recently registered he probably hasn't talked to the people around here.

I personally thought the story was completely comprehensible. A lot of the characters were boring but not all of them, and I have no idea why anyone would call any of the gameplay systems "broken" I can't think of anything right now. Can someone refresh my memory?

Story - Explain the logic, if you can, of the party deciding in an instant that the best way to save the world from Shinra is to go chasing after Sephiroth, despite the fact that he's not been established as any real threat, and having no clue whatsoever exactly what the heck they're chasing him for what they need to do when they catch up. The game's full of moments like that where common sense gets chucked out the window and you're asked to accept absurd leaps of non-logic.

Gameplay - You have nine characters to choose from, yet none of them are remotely unique because swapping materia from one to another effectively clones the one you were just using. It makes party selection completely pointless and destroys any inherent value in the group dynamic.

Limit breaks disable your physical attacks until they're used, yet they carry over into other battles if you don't use them. If they're intended to be used immediately, then common sense says that they should only be usable in that single battle. If they're intended to be saved for later use, the same sense says that it should be on a separate command.

I could go on, but I don't think it's necessary, and I really don't have any desire to write an essay. Just making a point.

Edit* Never mind.

Sephiroth is no real threat? Well besides his sword winding up in President Shinra's back and stealing Jenova. Besides, Cloud has a score to settle with him and he's the main character. The rest of the party agrees to join him. Outside the walls of Midgar.

I'm not arguing the characters are unique. I've already said they weren't. They only unique thing about them is their appearance, weaponry, and limit breaks.

Limit breaks aren't intended to be used immediately I guess. I don't see how Limit Breaks carrying over into other battles is a gameplay flaw.

I do recall walking through the Shin-Ra building and, towards the end, following a trail of blood up to President Shinra's desk. President Shinra was face first in his desk with a sword sticking out of his back. Cloud made the comment that the sword belonged to Sephiroth. He sounds like a threat to me.

President Shinra was already their enemy, so that doesn't make him a threat. None of them have a clue what Jenova is, so there's no reason for them to care about that. And even if Cloud has a score to settle, the others don't. Why would they go running off chasing some guy they've never met? It's anti-logic.

And the handling of the limit breaks is a flaw because there are obviously superior ways of handling it. Any dunce could think of them and see that they would work better. Hence it's a flaw.

Anyway, done with this because I have better things to do. Someone else can pick up where I left off if anyone wants to continue this discussion.

Final Fantasy VII is legendary. The reason people look back and say they hate it so much now is because of because of it's infamy. If you're a gamer, you know what Final Fantasy VII is. I don't know why people are so hard on it.


Again I also disagree with why people are so hard on the game, but for the last time it's because of the fact that some people actually dislike it. *sigh*

Wow what kind of forum is it when the moderators of a forum treat members like shit... My first and last post i'm not coming back... I've read around five threads and all of them include some high and mighty member with forty billion posts telling how stupid the people are for posting it. Move out of your moms house.

NO! We need you! You must come back!

And the handling of the limit breaks is a flaw because there are obviously superior ways of handling it. Any dunce could think of them and see that they would work better. Hence it's a flaw.

No, that is anti-logic.

A flaw is a defect, fault, or imperfection.

Just because you didn't like how limit breaks are handled doesn't mean it's a flaw. The limit break system doesn't hinder you in any way.

Sure it didn't -- except when you wanted to attack normally, but were forced to use a damn limit, or magic/command instead.

Sure it didn't -- except when you wanted to attack normally, but were forced to use a damn limit, or magic/command instead.

You mean... like in FF IX?

:P

Well, yeah you're not able to attack normally which can be a problem when you're fighting something you don't want to kill... but is that a big enough problem to call it a gameplay flaw? I don't really think so. You also have two more characters in your party that may not have their limit gauge full.

The only problem I see with calling Final Fantasy VII legendary is that it doesn't fit the exact definition.

"A legend or legend fragment is a meme that propagates through a culture. It may be crystallized in a literary work that fixes it and which affects the future direction it will take" (Legend, Wikipedia).

That's obviously a different meaning of the word, the one that would be relevant enough for an encyclopedia article.


Though the definition could be manipulated to it the "Gamer" culture. A meme is any bit of cultural information that is transmitted from one person to another (Meme, Wikipedia). It's true that not all gamers know about Final Fantasy VII. But not all humans know about Hamlet, Vlad the Impaler, Beowulf, or the Philosopher's stone. Such animals as the sasquatch, Loch Ness monster, and the Chupacabra are "legends" in their own right. Therefore calling Final Fantasy VII "legendary" is not that far of a stretch.

That, too, is not at all the meaning of the word "legend" that was so misused in describing FFVII. His meaning of the word was intended to imply that FFVII is one of the best games ever made, standing high above the rest in its quality etc. He also gave no explanation as to why he holds this opinion, so nobody's going to listen to him.


Legend is taken from the Latin word legenda meaning "things to be read."

What is the relevance of this etymology? English has obviously changed the meaning of that word around in common use.


Anyway, from most people I have talked to, the main reasons that they didn't like Final Fantasy VII were that they graphics were horrible and Aeris died. I thought the story was complex and well thought out.

Nobody thinks that FFVII is a flawed game for those reasons. Now, the obvious foreshadowing of Aeris's death and the straightforwardness of the plot caused by Aeris's death detract from the game's quality, but the fact that Aeris died was not itself a flaw in the game. The graphics were somewhat pixellated and sloppy, but they weren't particularly detrimental to the game as a whole.

As for the complexity of the story, how much do you actually get to find out about the characters? For the most part, they never act outside their stereotypical personalities, and most of all, they never really change. Sure, Cloud has a massive identity crisis and finally discovers which person he really was in the past, but does the way he acts ever fundamentally change? Tifa, too, is entirely faceless in her character, Barrett is nothing more than a stereotype, Red XIII is a stereotypical "wise" character that doesn't really fundamentally change, Yuffie is the archetypal spunky "kick-ass little girl" that appears in every FF game after FFVII, Vincent never does anything other than brood and act troubled, and Cid is your textbook old man with a potty mouth.

Aeris and Cait Sith, however, do undergo proper character development. Aeris learns about her race when the party visits Cosmo Canyon, and she begins to become more mature and less frivolous. Her character begins to see proper development, but she then inconveniently took a 7-foot sword through the belly. Cait Sith is a very well-developed character because he begins as a seemingly ridiculous and superfluous character before he turns out to be a Shinra spy. Afterwards, he reveals sort of an inner conflict because he is baffled by the strong sense of motivation that the main characters have, even with no promise of any kind of reward, the very opposite of what he sees in the heart of such a massive corporation. But after that, he basically gets no screen time. That's it, back to focus on the characters that aren't interesting.

He also gave no explanation as to why he holds this opinion, so nobody's going to listen to him.

I was just saying that it a really popular game and that people know about it. I wasn't saying it was the greatest game ever made. I'm sorry I didn't clear that up.

I was just saying that it a really popular game and that people know about it. I wasn't saying it was the greatest game ever made. I'm sorry I didn't clear that up.

Well, you did, but I didn't see it until after I made that post.

No, Hynad, because Trance didn't carry over to the next battle, so you generally wanted to use it whenever it became available.

Also because any command, including using an item that receives no augmentation from it, uses up the Trance bar.

That's obviously a different meaning of the word, the one that would be relevant enough for an encyclopedia article.

That, too, is not at all the meaning of the word "legend" that was so misused in describing FFVII. His meaning of the word was intended to imply that FFVII is one of the best games ever made, standing high above the rest in its quality etc. He also gave no explanation as to why he holds this opinion, so nobody's going to listen to him.

Even using the "standing high above the rest" definition, he would not be too far off. As of September 25, 2007, Final Fantasy VII hit number 19 on the top 25 best-selling video games of all time. A few new games may have altered that ranking slightly (though Halo 2 came in 25), but I would say that a video game coming in 19 of the best-selling video games would put it pretty far "above the rest".

JFTR, huge sales =/= great game.

And with that logic, it concludes this entire subject by saying that it is all opinion. No two people dislike the game for exact same reasons. There is no such thing as a great game or even a good game, because somewhere out there, someone will say that it is not great or good. You can base a game off of graphics, but what about Mario? And still yet, who can say that someone will not like even the best of graphics. You certainly cannot base a game's greatness off of its storyline. Some people like it, some people hate it. That's just how it works. Sales are the most effective means of judging a game's greatness because there is no opinion saying that Final Fantasy VII sold over 9 million copies, that is fact. It isn't a pole asking who liked it and who didn't. It is recorded sales in comparison to other game's sales.

I have now officially written you off as an idiot. I do still hold out some hope for you growing a brain, but until then, you'll get treated just like the rest of the local idiots.

And don't bother asking why you're an idiot. You'll be an idiot until you can see it for yourself.

I have now officially written you off as an idiot. I do still hold out some hope for you growing a brain, but until then, you'll get treated just like the rest of the local idiots.

And don't bother asking why you're an idiot. You'll be an idiot until you can see it for yourself.

Lurinar_Aylyn makes a good point and your write him off as an "idiot". Wow, maybe you should grow the brain.

Lurinar's right... the way a games sells is a pretty good indicator of what people feel about it. For some reason, even with all it's flaws, FFVII has sold very well and people seem to like it. I like it myself, honestly, but it's not my favorite. I don't really like Halo 3 that much but it did make 170 million dollars on it's opening day: the biggest entertainment release in history.

Sales don't exactly determine quality, of course, and I think that was the point Prak was trying to make but sales certainly do tell us something: people like FFVII.