hi :D

i've been using SMS media player on my ps2 for a while now, but it can only play the mp3 and ogg sound formats. i'd like it to play flac or other lossless but nah, it doesn't.

ok here's my question: what the heck is ogg? i've converted a bunch of files to ogg and they play fine, but i'm wondering if it is a lossy or lossless format (somtimes you hear the difference and sometimes you don't, that's why i'm asking people here instead of trying to listen and figure out for myself). i tried searching the net for some info, but i don't understand at all. ogg is a 'container format'; what is that? or does it mean packed like zip or flac? then, does container format mean that ogg is lossless? i used mediamonkey to convert the files, and it let me choose an average bitrate of 500~kbps. is that equal to about twice the quality of a 256kbps mp3 or...?

someone please explain to me... :(

I'm not much of an expert on .ogg, as I don't use it at all, but the ogg you're probably dealing with is the popular .ogg vorbis format. Both ogg vorbis and mp3s are lossy audio formats, but most people would agree that ogg vorbis files are more efficient than mp3 files as ogg vorbis files require less space than their mp3 counterparts while retaining similar/higher audio quality than mp3s. They are also considered superior to mp3s done at lower bitrates.

I believe there is an .ogg flac as well, but not many individuals use that as it is relatively new and thus not as well supported.

thanks for helping out. :)

hmmm, that means an ogg file with "average bitrate" (that's what mediamonkey says) of 500 is quite a lot better than mp3? if ogg bitrate is comparable to mp3 bitrate, 500 will be as good as lossless for my ears.

it being a container format means it's like an avi video file; an avi file can be divx, xvid, h264, etc. many different codecs can be used and contained within the file.

it can be loss or lossless. it can actually be an mp3 inside an ogg file. most commonly though it refers to vorbis, which is a lossy format that's technically slightly more efficient than mp3 codecs. however, it's less standardized. ie, please don't use it <3

sarah, don't worry, when i upload stuff on ffshrine it's always in flac or mp3.

i want to learn about ogg because the mediaplayer i use on my modchipped ps2 plays only mp3 or ogg, and it seems ogg is really better than mp3.

Thank you, Sarah, for clarifying the difference between a container and a codec. Within reason, you can stick whatever the hell you like inside an OGG, just like you can stick H264, xVid, DivX, DV, and a thousand other kinds of video inside an AVI. Vorbis is an audio codec created by the Ogg group. 99.99999% of the time, an OGG file is going to contain Vorbis-encoded audio but you'll occasionally find some smart sod putting weird stuff in there. Let's assume that it's Vorbis audio. ;)

If you have an OGG that has a true average bitrate of ~500kbps, then it's been encoded by a wally, in -Q10 mode. You could go lossless with FLAC with an average bitrate of ~800-900 - what's the point in encoding with a lossy codec at such a high bitrate.

LAME V0 is the best compromise between quality and filesize.

Incidentally, Vorbis is indeed the finer codec - moreso at lower bitrates but is generally accepted as aurally better at any bitrate. Of course, as Sarah said, the catch is it no bugger uses it. Which is a shame, because it's a superb codec, but it will never reach the level of user penetration that MP3 has. Go out on to the street and ask somebody what an MP3 is - they'll know it's music. Ask them what OGG is - they'll probably say a caveman, a witch in Discworld, or they'll ask you if you need a doctor.

Finally, a well encoded MP3 can sound very, very fine indeed. Forget all those hideous Xing/Blade encoded 128kbps MP3s you found on Napster in 1998. Now, even 128kbps MP3 can sound awfully good (purists will scoff, but it's a damn sight better than it used to be...) and Lame V0 (average bitrate ~240kbps) pleases even hardened audiophiles.

:)

dannyfrench, thanks for that thorough information. the thing is, i HAVE to use ogg on the specific mediaplayer software i use on my ps2. that is why i wanted to learn about the format. choosing between lossless and ogg is not an option since the mediaplayer can only read mp3 and ogg.

thanks for all the help people :)