Valerie Valens
09-27-2007, 05:27 PM
In the interest of chipping in to this brewing rivalry that is Halo 3 and Bioshock, I will assert my well-reasoned opinion that Halo 3 is better.

Now, in the interest of fairness, I'd like to state first that when it comes to telling a story with an immersive atmosphere. Bioshock has Halo 3 beaten hands down. However, most Bioshock fanboys I've talked to seem to completely miss the concept that story, narrative and atmosphere has, at most, only a secondary importance to making a game good. When it comes to gameplay and experience, Halo 3 eats Bioshock for breakfast and here's why...

Smoke and Water

Most of the best features Bioshock seems to tout as revolutionary and creative are in fact, something gamers have seen for a while. In fact, playing through the game, I am left with this uncanny uncomfortable feeling that it is simply System Shock 2 with a facelift and better narrative. The parallels are too close for comfort. Everyone talks about plasmids being the best gameplay concept since Jumpman/Mario is created, but in reality, they are just fancy names and graphics tied in to the concept of guns shooting weird shit. Moreover, FF7 : Dirge of Cerberus had something simillar called Materia, and you know how THAT went. Hacking? had that in System Shock 2. Interactivity with environment? For one, there's GMod. Also, all this interactivity means nothing ultimately if there is no negative reinforcement to force players to think before rushing.

Halo 3, on the other hand, had no such pretenses of reinventing the wheel and concentrated on making every squeeze of the left mouse button as satisfying and enjoyable as possible.

Careless Gameplay Mechanics

Bioshock is a victim to two of the most careless gameplay design problems I have ever seen in a game. Lack of negative reinforcement and currency overabundance. I'll address the former first.

The lack of negative reinforcement is not to say that the game had no difficulty. In fact, Bioshock had plenty of difficulty and beginners often find themselves dying very often at first. The problem is that it's all there is to it, you die...and that's it. You simply respawn to the last checkpoint, no penalties, the enemy health does not reset to the state when you reached that check point. That makes dying more of an annoyance than a real setback in gameplay progress. Passing through an area unscathed also feels empty because you can, in theory, bumrush the same area 56 times with a wrench and still pass through it eventually. Or you can also bumrush the Big Daddies with a wrench and still gain gargantuan cash rewards until you run out of things to spend them with. Which brings us to the next point.

There is simply too much cash being thrown at the player as a reward for killing enemies. You are never short on money when you want to buy upgrades/weapons or items and thus, you are never forced to make choices on what to purchase because the best/an overly adequate item is already available to you. In fact, towards the end, you quite literally run out of things to waste money on.

How did Irrational games make such a careless mistake even with 4 years of development, I will never know.

To be fair, Halo 3 does suffer a bit from gameplay design on the other end of the spectrum, the "The Computer is a Cheating Bastard" syndrome. At harder difficulty levels, the snipers or more harder enemies can really be a pain in the ass to get past, but I'd much rather have that than an empty gameplay experience begat by terribly broken gameplay design.

Multiplayer

Simply put, Bioshock has none. Joe NcNeilly, Senior GamesRadar Editor made the tragic mistake of only recalling his worst experiences online (http://www.gamesradar.com/us/pc/game/features/article.jsp?articleId=2007082293455732049&releaseId=20060426172718471012&sectionId=1003&pageId=2007082295058276064), which are rare in reality. My online gaming experiences have been nothing but enjoyable. Perhaps, Joe needs to learn where to look for an enjoyable gaming group, or better yet, create his online gaming group. If he's that upset about the trash talking, then he needs to learn to understand that it's all that it is, trash talk, it says nothing, it means nothing, it gets the adrenalines pumping and it shouldn't carry over outside the game.

What should have been discussed here regarding the lack of Bioshock's multiplayer modes are the numerous possibilities of gameplay modes that can be used beautifully with multiplayer. Maybe bonus levels that can only be completed with the help of a friend, or secrets that can only be accessed with 2 or more players working together. Team versus modes that involved rigging an arena and then doing battle in it. The possibilities are endless. To downplay the importance of multiplayer in PC games, especially with a game like Bioshock, is to be ignorant of the gaming demographic. There's a reason games like MDK and MDK 2 are pretty obscure, there's a reason System Shock 2 got the nice boost in its lifespan that it needed with it's multiplayer patch ; People love playing awesome games together.

When you look at Halo 3, with its saved movies feature, its very detailed stat-tracking system and the Forge utility. You can see that Halo 3 is designed with the enjoyment of the entirety of the Halo fanbase community in mind and that, my friends, is something no single player experience can beat.

I am a fan of neither side, so this is my unbiased opinion on the matter. Despite the differences, I love both games, honestly.

Tact
09-27-2007, 06:58 PM
no offense joan, i know your a good member of this community and all but... either i've grown out of it, or comparisons are noobish in general.

i mean. pretty much everyone i know just got both and played both and called it a day. it's like movies. take em as they come, why compare Goodfellas and Casino? Idk. i mean even if all your arguments are flawless, i find comparing them to be utterly pointless.

are you torn between which to buy? do you have a pc but not an xbox? why compare them at all especially since you say you like both regardless. what is this comparison for?


at least back then comparing things made more sense when your a kid and have to choose between asking your parents for a genesis or a snes. O_o so maybe i have grown out of it. paying things for yourself just makes it better cause you buy all systems and all games. and even if you were short on cash, it just means waiting till next paycheck. meh. who knows. maybe i've grown old. :p

Valerie Valens
09-27-2007, 07:05 PM
I know I have grown out of it. I just got inspired by GamesRadar when they released an article comparing them both and then inviting us to the forums to start a flamewar.

I KNOW that it's pointless, but I don't want to pass up on such a lulzy potential like here. (http://radarnation.gamesradar.com/thread.jspa?threadID=16778&tstart=0)

Raidenex
09-28-2007, 03:39 PM
This argument is a valid one for one reason:

Halo 3 is popular culture on an unparalleled scale. It has had the biggest entertainment launch sales in history: It's day one profits are greater than other huge launches this year, such as Spider-man 3 and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (that's the book people).

BioShock, while popular, will have no where near as many sales. As your average person on the street what Halo is, and they'll at least know it's a video game. Ask them what BioShock is and they'll probably think it's something to do with terrorism.

The thing is, I believe Halo 3 is a better video game. But BioShock is a better product as a whole, because it is one of the best examples of visual literature I have ever seen.

Joan-Michele is right in everything he says. Unfortunately, this is going to be the opinion of a lot of people, because he's looking at BioShock like's it's presented: as a video game. Most video games lack one important element: subtlety, and BioShock thrives on subtlety.

For starters, when it comes to shooting mechanics, Halo 3 beats BioShock. There is no comparison. The Halo control scheme was revolutionary, and Bungie has perfected it with Halo 3. In BioShock I had difficulty pulling off headshots, while in Halo 3 I can snap them off in a few seconds.

However, take the plasmids. Sure, on one level they're just 'magic' like there is in plenty of other games - I mean, there are COUNTLESS games that have melee and magic attacks, they just generally give you a sword instead of a gun. And if you stick to the standard plasmids - lightning, fire, frost, telekinesis, and just use them directly, you won't notice any difference.

This is where subtlety comes in. A lot of the additional plasmids seem useless or tacked on at first glance, and a lot of the common ones only seem to have one use, but when you think about environment as a weapon as a whole, the game comes alive.

Take, for instance, the flaming teddy. Using telekinesis to chuck a teddy bear at an enemy will do no damage - light it on fire using the incinerate plasmid and use telekinesis to chuck it will do damage in a most satisfying way. Controlling the environment using plasmids is something that hasn't been done so well and to this extent in any other game.

Add the 'crowd control' plasmids in - turning enemies on each other, recruiting a big daddy to fight for you. Combined with the hacking gameplay, you could finish the entire game almost without firing a single shot. Personally, I hacked every security bot I came across so I wouldn't have to be worried about fighting myself. I had more important things to do.

That important task was delving into the story of Rapture.

Being an avid reader and a minor dabbler into 'professional' philosophy, the Ayn Rand inspired world of BioShock inspired me from the lighthouse lobby. The giant bust of Andrew Ryan, the anti-god, pro-human message, the strength of industry; from the first minute of the game, the enivronment is telling you a story. A lot of people will step out of the bathysphere and look around and see a bunch of random junk; look at that random junk, and you realise that it is protest posters, a sign saying that bathysphere travel is prohibited; the first signs that Rapture is not as perfect as the bathysphere projector promised. This sort of detail continues throughout the entire game.

The thing is, you can play through the entire game, and not experience the story at all. A lot of people will do this, and they'll miss out. In BioShock, you have to actively seek the story. I understand that this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I love it. It's the sort of interaction and storytelling that adventure games used to offer.

BioShock is what i'd tentatively call an 'arthouse game'; it falls into category of movies that are there to make you think, rather than entertain. It's a gutsy move, because most games, ESPECIALLY first person shooters. It's a promising move, too; the more games like BioShock there are, the more video games can be recognised as a viable medium for adult, intellectual fare.

Oh, and in response to the cash situation: it's a problem that the easier difficulty level face, but like Halo 3, the game is designed to be played on the harder difficulty levels.

I guess that if you're looking for a video game, Halo 3 wins hands down. But if you're like me, and you enjoy experiencing a product that fully challenges your emotions and beliefs, BioShock has no equal.

IDX
09-28-2007, 07:23 PM
Halo was the only FPS game that I like. But if I don't play online, it gets boring after a while. I want to try Bioshock and see how that is (want a new game and debating whether to get Blue Dragon or Bioshock).

Valerie Valens
09-28-2007, 09:47 PM
This argument is a valid one for one reason:

Halo 3 is popular culture on an unparalleled scale. It has had the biggest entertainment launch sales in history: It's day one profits are greater than other huge launches this year, such as Spider-man 3 and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (that's the book people).

BioShock, while popular, will have no where near as many sales. As your average person on the street what Halo is, and they'll at least know it's a video game. Ask them what BioShock is and they'll probably think it's something to do with terrorism.

The thing is, I believe Halo 3 is a better video game. But BioShock is a better product as a whole, because it is one of the best examples of visual literature I have ever seen.

Joan-Michele is right in everything he says. Unfortunately, this is going to be the opinion of a lot of people, because he's looking at BioShock like's it's presented: as a video game. Most video games lack one important element: subtlety, and BioShock thrives on subtlety.

For starters, when it comes to shooting mechanics, Halo 3 beats BioShock. There is no comparison. The Halo control scheme was revolutionary, and Bungie has perfected it with Halo 3. In BioShock I had difficulty pulling off headshots, while in Halo 3 I can snap them off in a few seconds.

However, take the plasmids. Sure, on one level they're just 'magic' like there is in plenty of other games - I mean, there are COUNTLESS games that have melee and magic attacks, they just generally give you a sword instead of a gun. And if you stick to the standard plasmids - lightning, fire, frost, telekinesis, and just use them directly, you won't notice any difference.

This is where subtlety comes in. A lot of the additional plasmids seem useless or tacked on at first glance, and a lot of the common ones only seem to have one use, but when you think about environment as a weapon as a whole, the game comes alive.

Take, for instance, the flaming teddy. Using telekinesis to chuck a teddy bear at an enemy will do no damage - light it on fire using the incinerate plasmid and use telekinesis to chuck it will do damage in a most satisfying way. Controlling the environment using plasmids is something that hasn't been done so well and to this extent in any other game.

Add the 'crowd control' plasmids in - turning enemies on each other, recruiting a big daddy to fight for you. Combined with the hacking gameplay, you could finish the entire game almost without firing a single shot. Personally, I hacked every security bot I came across so I wouldn't have to be worried about fighting myself. I had more important things to do.

That important task was delving into the story of Rapture.

Being an avid reader and a minor dabbler into 'professional' philosophy, the Ayn Rand inspired world of BioShock inspired me from the lighthouse lobby. The giant bust of Andrew Ryan, the anti-god, pro-human message, the strength of industry; from the first minute of the game, the enivronment is telling you a story. A lot of people will step out of the bathysphere and look around and see a bunch of random junk; look at that random junk, and you realise that it is protest posters, a sign saying that bathysphere travel is prohibited; the first signs that Rapture is not as perfect as the bathysphere projector promised. This sort of detail continues throughout the entire game.

The thing is, you can play through the entire game, and not experience the story at all. A lot of people will do this, and they'll miss out. In BioShock, you have to actively seek the story. I understand that this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I love it. It's the sort of interaction and storytelling that adventure games used to offer.

BioShock is what i'd tentatively call an 'arthouse game'; it falls into category of movies that are there to make you think, rather than entertain. It's a gutsy move, because most games, ESPECIALLY first person shooters. It's a promising move, too; the more games like BioShock there are, the more video games can be recognised as a viable medium for adult, intellectual fare.

Oh, and in response to the cash situation: it's a problem that the easier difficulty level face, but like Halo 3, the game is designed to be played on the harder difficulty levels.

I guess that if you're looking for a video game, Halo 3 wins hands down. But if you're like me, and you enjoy experiencing a product that fully challenges your emotions and beliefs, BioShock has no equal.

Totally agree here, thanks for elaborating what I said in the first paragraph though I still think that the cash is a bit overabundant. :thumbsup:

PS : IDX Rider, you should totally get Bioshock over Blue Dragon. While Bioshock does provide a great narrative experience plus lots of fun things to do with mixing environmental elements to your favour, Blue Dragon exhudes a very strong impression of "same old same old" only with updated graphics.

compuknight
10-01-2007, 12:27 PM
Well after 10 hours of non-stop gameplay, I have just this second completed halo 3 on Heroic difficulty. The ending is AWSOME!!11!!

See you all on line guys 'n' gals

hb smokey
10-01-2007, 11:49 PM
while in Halo 3 I can snap them off in a few seconds.
I have yet to see such feat. A single time.

Tact
10-02-2007, 03:35 PM
he has aim-bot

Raidenex
10-02-2007, 03:54 PM
I have yet to see such feat. A single time.

Listen you, it was 2 AM when I played you the other night. I was nowhere near the top of my game.

(still, you have to admit I didn't suck quite as badly as when I played you in Halo 2).

Pimp Daddy McSnake
10-03-2007, 08:15 AM
95 Yr. Old Japanese Grandma Playing Halo 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR9allAs8k8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fkotaku%2Ecom%2F)

This is especially bizarre since only 5 copies of Halo 3 were sold in Japan.

Tact
10-03-2007, 03:26 PM
lmao @ ebichu. BURRRN!

it's just proof that older poeple don't know what a good game is. ever have the family member try to buy you a video game for xmas or bday and they get you something like "the suite life of mac and cody" for your shiny new DS? -_-

Raidenex
10-04-2007, 03:44 AM
I cringe whenever i'm in a games store and I hear parents asking the clerk what game they should get for their kids. Especially since the clerk just tries to sell whatever he's getting commission on upselling that month.

"Sure, your eleven year old son would LOVE this new Bratz game!"

On the otherside of the fence, my mum bought me four PlayStation games as presents - Crash Bandicoot 3, Ridge Racer Type 4, Worms Armageddon and Gran Turismo 2. I respect her decisions.

Wattson
10-04-2007, 09:24 AM
For starters, when it comes to shooting mechanics, Halo 3 beats BioShock. There is no comparison. The Halo control scheme was revolutionary, and Bungie has perfected it with Halo 3. In BioShock I had difficulty pulling off headshots, while in Halo 3 I can snap them off in a few seconds.

I have not yet played Halo 3 but I haven't played any game on a console that wasn't so fucking clunky I could barely aim at all. Gears I can almost aim but that's just about it. I find it very hard to believe you can get headshots that easily.
But hey, to each their own.

Bioshock, though, even with keyboard and mouse is very hard to get headshots in, though by the time you get halfway through the game you can kill big daddies in seconds without even having to aim much at all and only the final boss requires some amount of aim and even that's minimal. Bioshock wasn't about a revolutionary shooter combat system at all. It was about the story (as you know) and it pulled that off far better than any game I've played in a very, very long time.

J. Peterman
10-04-2007, 09:52 AM
Wattson I can't update Magic Set Editor anymore because of the changes I made to make it work with Pokemon make it like funky in .35b

rytango
10-18-2007, 05:59 PM
as much as i enjoyed the art style, narrative and audio of Bioshock, i got bored about halfway through the game. gameplay consisted almost entirely of killing bodies and searching bodies.

there are millions of ways to kill those bodies sure. but i found that using just the electricity and big daddy plasmids worked the best, completely ignoring much of what the game offered.

it would have been nice had they more enemies that were weak to certain plasmids. that the only way to defeat them was to use that plasmid. or more puzzles to use certain plasmids on. the game could've just benefited much more from more gameplay variety, not just millions of ways to kill.

halo 3 had a much richer variety of scenarios than just your typical hallway shooter. it's audio in game is also more varied and context sensitive than canned voiceovers like Bioshock.

but Gears of War, being a shorter Single Player than the above, managed great cinematic gameplay, variety of scenarios, context sensitive voicework and better (honed/tighter knit) graphics to boot. definitely anticipating it's sequel.