As you might guess from the title, i'm one of those (few? many?) FF fans who was left with a sinking, empty feeling after playing through FF12. Something just didn't seem right, and i've been trying desperately to put my finger on what that is. Just in case I cover anything, be warned that there might be some slight spoilers following if you haven't played this yet.

Overall, for its 5 years+ of production time, the longest of any FF game to date I believe, the entire game felt greatly unfinished. Did anyone else get this impression? Mostly, it was the little things that bothered me throughout the game that scream of an unfinished game to me.

The problems started when I flipped on the game. The camera was inverted and there was no option for changing it back. Frustrating, but I got used to it eventually. Then, there was the sound. I played this game mostly at nights and had to keep it down since the rest of the family was sleeping. This was almost an impossible feat. No matter which sound system I selected, I always had music which was thunderingly loud and voice dialogues that could barely be heard. The result was juggling the TV remote's volume all through the game. Moving on though...

Simple things like the airship - Was I the only person who expected from the first moment I turned the game on until Balthier promised to teach Vaan how to fly it that we would receive a fully functional airship that could fly around Ivalice? Every FF game since FF6 had that feature. With the new graphics engine, that could have been a stunning experience -- yet, it never happened. Or mini games perhaps? Where were the mini games or events that are littered through the usual final fantasy game? Triple Triad? Blitzball?The game seemed alarmingly lacking in this department, unless you can fit hunts into that category -- I cannot since they are too similar to regular combat.

Then there is the story. Ah, yes. Can anyone really say that it was a 'bad' plot? It had so much potential, and the introductory movie promised so much that I actually thought it would surpass any other FF game i've ever played. It fell far far short though. We just didn't get enough of the story via dialogue or cutscenes, not to mention character development. If you exclude the beginning and ending movies, I wouldn't doubt that there was only 20 minutes of CGIs in the game, if even that. 20 minutes out of 60 hours does not a good movie make. When the last battle with Vayne was brewing up, I was convinced that, given the amount of story i'd seen so far, this had to be the half-way point in the game. I'm dead serious -- compared to the other FF games, the amount of story and character development actually felt like i'd only played the game halfway. Disheartened with the game so far, I said to myself: self, if this is the 'mid-way' point in the story, this could actually turn out to be a very very good story and game. Surely it must be? Surely they wouldn't just end the game with this final battle when so much in the story is left so uncovered? Yet, as the battle progressed, it slowly dawned on me that it was.

It feels as if SE had a full fledged story fleshed out in game, but then they severed huge chunks out of it -- perhaps trimming it down to 1/4th its size. With it, they shaved off almost all character development and key points in the story that would have explained a great deal -- not to mention the many uncovered parts at the end, such as the fate of the Occuria. In reality, I imagine that the reason they did this is simply because they didn't want to bother making a detailed story. I honestly feel that I could watch the beginning and ending CGI movies for this game and know almost as much about the characters and story as I do after playing the full 60 hours of it. Many of the characters portrayed emotions make little sense, and I believe this is why. Ashe calling "Baaaalthieeerrr!!!"? She hated him at the beginning of the story and there was no scene which would have greatly changed that. Vaan, if anyone, should have been the one doing that. Also, one of the biggest disappointments in character development and story was probably the little quirks and twists in the plot that exist in about every FF. Little of this existed in FF12, most of it appearing at the beginning of the story. Humor is always an excellent addition to the story too in prior FFs. Instead of humour, the few scenes of interaction we did get in FF12 were more awkward than anything. Vaan: "You've got good friends.".. and everyone stares. Or Basch: "Right. Right." and Vaan and Penelo giggle.

The final things i'd touch on as far as an unfinished game are the spells, boss battles, and espers. Espers were horrible, truly horrible, especially since they as a whole were one of the key players in the story. Aside from one or two, the espers looked like nothing more than a gigantic monster limb hodgepodge, a far cry from the original looks we've seen in previous fantasys. The espers, instead of looking like amazing magical beasts, looked more like something that crawled out of the Chernobyl nuclear meltdown. Then the playability -- am I the only one who never even summoned half of his espers? They were just about utterly worthless. When Espers would have been halfway useful (ie: Swarms of mobs or tough bosses), they couldn't be used. Swarms would overwhelm and kill the single player left to defend the esper, or simply kill the esper in quick succession. On bosses, MP was needed to heal, not blow an entire tank on a useless esper. Then, there was the summonings themselves. Almost every CGI looked similar with very little variation aside from a few nice dismissal movies. CGIs as a whole were a big let down. I can't count how many monsters use the whole 'stand-in-the-center-of-the-giant-symbol-ring-while-rain-fire-and-so-forth-appears-around-the-edges'. Even the CGI at the end of mist chains players use looked identical. Finally, spells and techniques were fairly dismal. Most techniques were never used since they were pointless, and I went the whole game never learning what some spells let alone needing to use them. Mostly though, the spells were just ugly. Cast firaga and you get a little jet of flame, not some massive explosion as in previous fantasies. Most spells were this way. The spell quality was so poor that I would have expected to see it in FF6 or FF7 -- not in FF12.

Well, if you survived this long rant, let me know if you agree/disagree with anything i've said -- I'd like to discuss it.

I completely agree with you in every way shape and form. The game over all was a nice departure from the classic battle systems which the FF series has helped to cement into gaming today. It was a really large gamble for them to break something like that out this late in the game, especially since this was the game that would leave a good or bad or indifferent taste in gamers mouths as they crossed over to their new systems (Xbox 3 shitty, the nintendo Wiik or the PS3 (btw, i'm not bias :D)). For me personally, I am probably gunna hope for something in the Kingdom hearts Lineup to help the FF12 story along, since if anyone cared enough to get the secret ending in the second Kingdom Hearts game, you notice a few of our friends are their :D

Good to be back

Lone Wolf

Here goes

I'm going to comment on some graphical things you mentioned. I disgree about the fact that the Magicks animations were bad. And I think it's truly an unfair point to make. Why? You don't have the single screen turnabased combat like you did in all previous FF games. You can't have an increadible huge Ultima (i.e. FFX) animation, because you need to be aware of your surroundings. There are Traps and other Monsters about that might compromise you during the battle. I'm not sure if you've seen the animation for Scathe and Adour for example, but those are huge and pretty awesomely made. Spell animations were smaller because of the entire shift of the game.

As for the sound. I can't really say you have a valid point or not. See I have a 5.1 surround set plugged into my PS2 and I never had any problem with the music being thundering loud that I could not hear the voice acting or sound effects. This might be a problem you experienced, but I sure did not.

I had absolutely no problem with the camera system. I already had played many a game with similar systems, so this might be a personal preference.

I didn't mind not being able to fly the airship. Simply because you constantly are on the world map (given that you are not in a town but out on the field ofcourse). I think this is another unfair statement to make. You have various methods of traveling (Chocobo, Gate Crystals and the Airship) and when you combine those together to go around, I absolutely never had the disire to actively fly the airship. I was more dissapointed in FFX not being able to fly then in FFXII.

I guess you haven't done the Fishing Mini Game that's in FFXII. But there is a good Mini Game and it's a fun side part of the game to enjoy, not constantly battling Monsters and what not.

I agree on the battle with Vayne. I was hoping there'd be more, but alas. However, the fact that there's about 20 minutes of CGI in the game, did not bother me at all. In alot of cases I think SE made good choices just to use the Game Engine itself to do the scenes, rather then to make CGIs all the time. I guess this is just a matter of opinion. It's funny I didn't hear you about the voice acting. However I do think that it's pretty awesome. They used alot of accents and the voices really seemed to fit all the characters. (Ad-Cid for example was brilliant).

As far as Espers go. If you paid attention to the game, you have noticed that all the names that were summons in the previous games (Bahamut, Leviathan, Ifrit, Shiva etc) are now names for airships. I thought this was neat. The Espers are divided between 1, 2 and 3 Mist Charges, and even the Espers in the Third Mist charge catagory are vastly different in strenght. I am only missing out on Zodiark at this point, but Ultima and Chaos are pretty damn awesome Espers. Granted that the summon animations looked alike, it didn't really bother me. The only thing I missed, was an option to either shorten or turn off Esper animations.

Also, when you first get Belias (yes your very first Esper), he's actually kind of good. Espers get ALOT better when you start buffing them with various spells (like Bubble is a must, Haste, Protect/Shell). Belias for example here, is absolutely crap at end game, while other Espers are really great and are the only ones to break the damage limit outside of Quickenings with Occurences.

I think alot of things you mentioned are either based on opinions, or can be relayed due to the fact that the game is entirely different compared to previous FFs.

Just my 2 cents.

You bring up a good point about them not being able to use huge animations for the magicks, but I still feel they could have been much more appealing to the eyes than they were.

I agree, the way they named the airships was a nice throwback, though it was a minor detail. I never saw the third mist espers you described, though I did watch their summons on Youtube -- I imagine they require tens of hours of extra gameplay to reach? I finished the game with my characters around L45. In any case, by the time you can reach them, I suppose they are still about useless to you, since your characters would be far above and beyond the strength to beat Vayne at that point without them. It would have been nice if they had an important use in the game, since the plot did revolve around them quite a bit.

I didn't have many complaints for the voice acting -- as you said, the accents were a nice touch generally. I found Ashe in particular to be about as dull as a flat stone, but other than that the voice actors weren't too bad. Balthier, of course, was my favorite of the voiceovers. You have to admit that the lip synching was pretty horrendous, though. This isn't a big deal, but given the length of production time and the rarity of cut scenes in the game, you would have expected them to have done a better job at it. It's just another thing i'd attribute to the feeling of the game not being totally finished, or rather rushed.

Overall, I just feel that they could have made this game about twice as good as it was given how it had so much potential. I have no idea what held this game up so long in the production line. If they had spent the extra time working on the extra story details, better character development, fixing the espers, and improving the CGIs in general, as well as the miriad of minor problems it had but shouldnt have had, FF12 might have been so popular as to even sway the most hardcore FF7 fans into believing it was the best of the series (if that is possible.)

PS: Where is the fishing mini game? I didn't see a sign of it anywhere when I played the game. That might be an interesting thing to try if it's not too difficult to reach.

The fishing game is First you have to Complete some of the first hunts get the Cactus flower then after a Certain point go to the Village in the East section of Dalmasca and go through the Cactur Side quest then a Man on the Pier across from the Boat will speak about wanting to fish. Now if you are far enough along go to Reddas's Port I forget its name right now. Near the Aerodome is a Man fishing talk to him until you get to ask him about his pole he will say he is hungry go towards the aerodome till the man is out of sight then go back there you will see his rod leaning aganist the wall pick it up and go to the Man wanting to fish and give it to him. That gives you acess to the fishing game if you do well and have gotten past the gilgamesh Hunt you can get a better rod and another fishing hole.

Now to clear something up I am nearly 100% through the game I have beaten it and now I am working on finishing everything. This is just to let you know I do know what I am talking about.

First the espers. The espers are VERY useful if used right you can't just summon them and expect them to take down everything like past summons for example Shiva. They are VERY good for room clearing and Time buying also they are good aganist other espers. Alot of their attacks can kill most enemies in one hit or deal serious harm, They are also immune to most status so Skeletons and other Status using enemies are on the disadvantage, and if an enemy is able to kill you in one hit the esper will usually be the target before the summoner. They are reflective of their Summoners So if your levels are crap so too are the espers if they are good they espers rock. Basically what I am saying is that the need Tactics and knowledge of their abilities to truly shine. As for the more powerful espers no it doesn't take hours to get them except for one and that is Zodiark who needs 10 espers before you can even fight him and he is level 75 or so. Most of those 3 gauge and 2 gauge espers are in fact very easy to find you have more likely been to most of their areas and didn't even know it.

Now the graphics and Sound I disagree on I play an Old clunker Zenith Sentry 2 TV that is more likely as old as I am. The graphics are nice on it and so is the sound. Now a stated problem is the High-def stuff seems to have a Problem with FFXII and causes some graphic distortions. As for the In-game veruses CG scene argument truth be told I don't see the point the CG made us stand up and pay attention with different graphics but that is it. All FF's have told the Vast majority of their plot in-game instead of CG even FFX did so. So I don't see where you even get the idea that CG cutscenes should explain most of the story since it has never done so except to highlight ceratin points.

As for the Airship I Dislike how little you really get to use the Strahl but I didn't mind it too much. I like how the weather is reflected when flying the Strahl from the Fields it was a Nice touch.

The spell where already stated that they couldn't be as impressive due to Combat design which I agree with. But the techs are some of the best Telekiness-sp?- for example is very NICE when you get it. Gil toss is a god send when fighting way out side your level. As for the Spells some are plain awesome to see like Scathe and Flare Bio is also nice because sometimes it doesn't have to be flashy but rather useful in combat. As for the Summon CG yeah it was basic but each Summon had a different Final attack CG so I let the summon CG slide.

The Plot and character development is often missed out on for the very first play through an example is when Basch is captured in the Beginning you are not used to his voice yet so you don't know that it was Gabranth's voice saying those things. You also don't realize just how cunning Vayne really is. Basically what I am saying is the first play through you only get one part of the Plot the second fills in the Blanks. Also since it is mostly poltics and power struggle the Average Joe usually doesn't get it so it seems lacking when really its not. As for the Balither scene you mention the scene in the Coast where they are talking is the start of it also Ashe didn't hate Balither rather she is indifferent to him its Basch she hates in the Beginning because she thinks he killed her father. Most of those "Akward" scenes really aren't if someone said who is basically a street rat Loner that you have great friends don't you think it would touch you? I know it would me. Also there is a lot of character interaction but it gets missed because it is in the background not the foreground so most people dismiss it like when entering Gilmore jungle Vaan Penelo and Larsa are talking but the focous is on Ashe Basch and Balither so people often miss what the interaction going on despite the fact that is Ashe's focous on topic. Bascially Play it again you will have a LOT of OH moments going on.

As for Camera personal simiply as that I found no trouble with it. Now I will agree they should have let you mess around with the controls for it a bit so people could adjust it to how they like it but I found no problem with it.

I think the only thing I could really agree on is the storyline stuff. It was a great plot, but at times it was poorly communicated and could have been executed in a much more clear and open way.

Another niggling thing for me, was the presentation of the dialogue boxes. Having text in all-caps is really unintuitive and puts your line reading at odds with the 'flow' (or lack thereof) as it were. This lead to me rushing through a lot of the story text, and shying away from randomly talking to strangers and exploring because it messed up my (probably somewhat dylexic) visual processing.....meh. It just took away from my enjoyment a little (and a little, consistently through a 60 hour play adds up to a lot)

First the espers. The espers are VERY useful if used right you can't just summon them and expect them to take down everything like past summons for example Shiva. They are VERY good for room clearing and Time buying also they are good aganist other espers. Alot of their attacks can kill most enemies in one hit or deal serious harm, They are also immune to most status so Skeletons and other Status using enemies are on the disadvantage, and if an enemy is able to kill you in one hit the esper will usually be the target before the summoner. They are reflective of their Summoners So if your levels are crap so too are the espers if they are good they espers rock. Basically what I am saying is that the need Tactics and knowledge of their abilities to truly shine. As for the more powerful espers no it doesn't take hours to get them except for one and that is Zodiark who needs 10 espers before you can even fight him and he is level 75 or so. Most of those 3 gauge and 2 gauge espers are in fact very easy to find you have more likely been to most of their areas and didn't even know it.

Now the graphics and Sound I disagree on I play an Old clunker Zenith Sentry 2 TV that is more likely as old as I am. The graphics are nice on it and so is the sound. Now a stated problem is the High-def stuff seems to have a Problem with FFXII and causes some graphic distortions. As for the In-game veruses CG scene argument truth be told I don't see the point the CG made us stand up and pay attention with different graphics but that is it. All FF's have told the Vast majority of their plot in-game instead of CG even FFX did so. So I don't see where you even get the idea that CG cutscenes should explain most of the story since it has never done so except to highlight ceratin points.

As for the Airship I Dislike how little you really get to use the Strahl but I didn't mind it too much. I like how the weather is reflected when flying the Strahl from the Fields it was a Nice touch.

The spell where already stated that they couldn't be as impressive due to Combat design which I agree with. But the techs are some of the best Telekiness-sp?- for example is very NICE when you get it. Gil toss is a god send when fighting way out side your level. As for the Spells some are plain awesome to see like Scathe and Flare Bio is also nice because sometimes it doesn't have to be flashy but rather useful in combat. As for the Summon CG yeah it was basic but each Summon had a different Final attack CG so I let the summon CG slide.

The Plot and character development is often missed out on for the very first play through an example is when Basch is captured in the Beginning you are not used to his voice yet so you don't know that it was Gabranth's voice saying those things. You also don't realize just how cunning Vayne really is. Basically what I am saying is the first play through you only get one part of the Plot the second fills in the Blanks. Also since it is mostly poltics and power struggle the Average Joe usually doesn't get it so it seems lacking when really its not. As for the Balither scene you mention the scene in the Coast where they are talking is the start of it also Ashe didn't hate Balither rather she is indifferent to him its Basch she hates in the Beginning because she thinks he killed her father. Most of those "Akward" scenes really aren't if someone said who is basically a street rat Loner that you have great friends don't you think it would touch you? I know it would me. Also there is a lot of character interaction but it gets missed because it is in the background not the foreground so most people dismiss it like when entering Gilmore jungle Vaan Penelo and Larsa are talking but the focous is on Ashe Basch and Balither so people often miss what the interaction going on despite the fact that is Ashe's focous on topic. Bascially Play it again you will have a LOT of OH moments going on.

As for Camera personal simiply as that I found no trouble with it. Now I will agree they should have let you mess around with the controls for it a bit so people could adjust it to how they like it but I found no problem with it.

I agree with you about the espers. They can be very useful if used properly. But I found them to be boring and pretty much unnecessary.

As for the storyline. You shouldn't have to play through the game twice for it to be good. I caught all the 'subtleties' the first time around, and they just weren't that well constructed.

I doubt you could catch all the subtleties because you just don't have all the info to even recognize them all let alone understand them. Lets go back to Vayne in the Beginning when he makes the whole speech about leaving some control over Dalmasca complete Lie though you can't tell that and when he makes his speech as the new consoule you think he is a good guy doing his best. Or at least that is the impression I got but on the second play through you can tell it all rings 'Hollow' so to say =).

Basically what I am saying is while you can pick up some of the Hidden meanings in speeches through out the game you can't Pick them ALL up its impossible since in the Beginning you are still getting a hang of Character personalities, Voices, and reactions. And this what you would pick up near the end of the game as Balither hidding or Vaan being Naive not stupid you don't get that since at the time you don't KNOW them yet so how can you pick up the Little secerts in their voices. Answer you can't. Also several events are foreshadowed well in advanced but because you have no info on the places and or Characters talking about it, it goes over your head.

So I say again you NEED to play the game Again in order to fully understand the plot. Same goes for all FFs a lot of the little blanks get filled in on the second play through.

Of course, assuming it is exactly as you say it is, the game's writing is a colossal failure. A well-told story may have nuances or hints that you may not get at the time, but it always goes back and revisits important moments/quotes to put them in proper context. If the game fails to do this, then the writing is inferior. You shouldn't have to experience a story more than once to get its basic points.

For a good example of such a scenario being handled properly, look no further than the game that you took half your name from. When the big plot twist in KOTOR hits, it flashes back to previous scenes from the game to put it all in proper context. It was short, efficient, and you easily understood it in one shot, rather than having to replay the game.

True I can't deny that you have a point. But not all plots stories or what else gets linked back and to be clear FFXII does due its fair share. I am not talking about the Major points but rather the small ones or missed ones. In another thread a Shriner asked why Vaan can no longer see Ralister's ghost he had missed the scene where it is explained why. Also some of the Little character flaws strengths and other like traits are sometimes missed, glossed over, or misunderstood due to the scene and its focous. And most of these only fill in a lot of the blanks or help clear up some of the murky water none of them makes or breaks the plot just helps make it sharper and more clear. What I am talking about are the little stuff and blanks that even with a go back/flashback whatever is used are still left blank example from Kotor why does the Main character have no idea who Bastila is when he has been in her company right from the Start? It is never adressed but if you beat the game and go back and play it again you can draw some ideas. All plots have their little things that don't make sense until you have played a Second time or read a Second time.

But the thing is people miss Character devlopment due to those Blanks/Misunderstood tidbits. The look at Vaan and see yes he is different from the Beginning of the game, but they ask where did that come from? And its because they missed his devolpment either because of they think he is Stupid and dismiss all he has to say as I have seen some put forth or they don't credit all he says with his devolpment just random crap and with a Piece character devlopment you have to look at everything. To show you a living working Piece devolpment look at yourself simiple as that we are made from countless events and experinces but very few times can we reach out and label how we grew this way not to say you can't because there are always points that you can but for the Majority of who you are you can't because it is shaped by hundreds of events. That is a Piece devolpment at its best life itself.

As for the Plot a standard rule I go with has always been if by the second play through it doesn't make sense then its a horrible plot. I have so far in the near 100s of games I have played in my life found only one Game that is a piece of trash Legend of Legia 2. That truly has no plot to speak of or if it does it is so horribly done I gag at it.

To make sure my point is clear none of the little blanks really change the plot it just helps clear up Character devolpment that usually gets missed and or Glossed over. It helps people to see the plot better none of it truly shapes it but just makes it more clear. And to be honest the game is over 60 hours long without Sidequests or so you are going to lose sight and understanding of the plot with so much time between scenes. The second play is to help you rememeber all the plot as well as understand how the plot is going example is the beginning where 'Basch' is speaking to Vayne after killing the king newbies will take it at face value while the Replayers will be 'OH so thats what happened' as well it helps show just how manuplative the plot really is.

My standard rule is that it has to make sense the first time. I don't care if I have to think about it a little. I'm not asking to have stuff spoon fed to me. I just want everything in the proper context so that I can figure it all out without having to start from the beginning.

Well you can in FFXII it just as I said makes it clearer and really highlights the sneaky parts of the Plot. The Reks Basch King slaying event I used as an example you get told the truth behind it in game its just the second play through helps give it more detail and defention is all.

And I agree it needs to make sense the first play its just I hold off on evaluations until the Second because I may have missed something in a scene for some reason(Trash duty or phone more often then not) or not fully understood the plot point. Its just the way I work is all.

And I'm not complaining about that. In fact, it seems that we agree entirely for once.

EDIT: Except, of course, regarding how it applies to FFXII, seeing as I couldn't force myself to keep playing it. Even after trying again, I quit at some point in the Stilshrine of Miriam because it bored the crap out of me.

Huh well yeah each their own on which games they play and enjoy I guess.

Are you talking about subtleties of character and plot development? Or are you talking about things that you're not supposed to know about the plot unless you've seen it in it's entirety. Because all you seem to be mentioning are plot twists, which would do nothing more than create a false sense of dramtic irony in the viewer who's already seen the story through to those key moments in the stories.

Just trying to claify, Revanninja

No as I said these hidden things which really aren't hidden just sharpen the plot. My examples are all HIGHLIGHTS of events not a single plot twist a plot twist would be Vaan is Basch's brother(Not true just an example) versus "Basch's" words when he killed the king after you have figured out who is who in the Voices. It doesn't do anything for the plot really it just helps people go OH really since it is told later in the game the truth in that scene its just really a nice touch is all.Also my urging of people to play a second play is to help people make a fair eval of the game since as I said before the game is long at an average of 60 hours with little in the way of sidequests people aren't going to rememeber all the details or every scene espically if they do the sidequest which taks on another 30 hours or so. It is just to see all the little tid bits that are there and to see the plot in its entirity nothing more.

Also it is not Revanninja here but rather Revaninja only one N please and thank you Geta-Boshi.

Discovering a character to be not what you thought he was, is a plot twist. You're talking about going back and watching old scenes in the game knowing where the story is headed. Those aren't subtleties. Maybe we watched the scenes differently, but I picked up on the throne room scene during my first play through. It wasn't very well concealed. I also don't know how you can tell me what I did and did not pick up on during my gaming experience.

Once again no that is not a plot twist. I do keep it relative I don't go saying it shows Vayne to be a Manuplative Bastard only Highlights the events by being fully aware of the world and characters. For example there is a Scene where they talk about the Jags by Mt-bur-omasice it doesn't change squat doesn't show a Plot twist only gives you detail about the scope of area they are dealing with before you even know where Mt-bur-omasice is let alone exisited. As for the Beginning piece yes it INVOLVES a plot twist and this might not be a good example of what I am talking about but all I have been saying is it HIGHLIGHTS said scene nothing more knowing whose voice is whose doesn't tell anything really it just says Vayne is talking to someone not Basch while Basch is being held down in Reks view. All it does is Highlight the scene is all a plot twist would really throw you threw a loop if you missed it but it doesn't why because it really isn't a plot twist just a highlight.

As for finding all the Subtleties why it is true I can't tell you your gaming experince nor how it went, I can tell you I really doubt you picked up on ALL of them. Several times I have found references and allusions that don't makes sense the first play because you don't have the History or Map of the area so it goes over your head most cases unless it is explored upon. Example they mention VERY early Jagd areas but never mention really what they are before Vaan gives us the Explanation. That is what I am talking about you couldn't pick that up because it is not a Normal real life thing it is a made up term. Real life example is Dinosaurs latin name never exisited in Latin why because it is a Cobbled together term to describe the creature's attributes or precieved behavior but in the end it is made up of many pieces that make the whole. If you are missing a part then you can't get the Subleties and FFXII has several though Minor instances of this.

You dear, remind of Wolf Kanno on EOFF.

No, I am not going to make a long ass post, because someone will come along and completely obliterate every point in it. It was fine for me, perfect actually. I'm hoping RW will extend on the world of Ivalice, an extension on an already well done story. FFVII, despite what people say, fails to deliver a perfect story in just one game. SE feels the need to fill in all these loopholes/plotholes etc with sequels and prequels.

XD

P.S - One does not hate VII

My examples are all HIGHLIGHTS of events not a single plot twist a plot twist would be Vaan is Basch's brother(Not true just an example) versus "Basch's" words when he killed the king after you have figured out who is who in the Voices.

The beginning of the game had an extremely nice plot setup. Most of it couldn't be thoroughly enjoyed at the time though because, as you said, the game would have needed to be replayed. However, I feel that the reason for needing to replay it is not because of extra tidbits that make the plot more appreciable as in previous Final Fantasys. Admittedly, there are probably a few as in each of the games. The main reason in this case, though, it is due to unclear writing and presentation of the plot. I was more than halfway through the game before I had a firm grasp on the plot and story. There's simply no excuse for that in my opinion other than poor writing and presentation. It should not take a person half of the entire game to realize what is taking place, and i'm a fairly attentive person to be fair. Now, perhaps it was just me, and perhaps the sound troubles I had contributed to the problem, but I typically have absolutely no problem understanding at least the basic direction the plot is headed in a game. In every other Final Fantasy game i've played, I did not sit there scratching my head for half of the game wondering what half of the words referred to or what was happening. It demonstrates the potential FFXII had for a complex plot and story, but it fell far short since the presentation was rushed. When I have chosen to replay a FF game (as I am doing now with FFX), I did come to appreciate the complexity of the plots and character development that I never saw the first time. I never had to do it merely to enjoy the story as might be the case with FFXII.

I've got about 10 or something hours of play time on FFXII. I've probably got about 10% of the story completed, with maybe <1% of the hunts and other sidequests completed.

It will likely stay this way forever, since FFXII is just awful, and I cannot force myself to play it anymore.

I completely 1000% disagree.. this is the most complete game I've ever played ever. You didn't do everything the game offers if you come close to feeling like this game isn't complete.. period.

I guess that's just my opinion but i dont see how you can possibly think this game isn't complete.

In almost all your arguments you complain about things you don't like about the game, and in only one you mention anything that's lacking,mini games, but the side quests and hunts more than make up for the lack of mini games.

First, you are a stupid cunt and should go away.

Second, a game should feel complete if you just follow the main path. If the only way FFXII feels complete is through "doing everything the game offers", then that's a big failing.

Hmm. From what I've read in here, I'm getting the impression that this game shares certain faults with FF7 in terms of plot presentation and characters.

Still guess the only way for me to properly make my mind up is to go and play the game.

Sure, but remember that it'll probably be a crap shoot for you. I doubt that you'll like it much, but I don't know you well enough to say for sure. Anyway, don't invest in it if you'll regret doing so if you happen to dislike it.

Don't worry, I'm not planning on buying it right now =)

I'll probably end up borrowing it off somebody else at some point. As you say, it's probably likely that I won't be too keen on it - but should that be the case then I can just hand it back again. If on the other hand I find I like it better than I expected, then at least I know by that point whether it's worth me shelling out the cash or not for my own copy.

Excellent plan. Please forgive me for doubting you. ;)

lol, no probs

First, you are a stupid cunt and should go away.

Second, a game should feel complete if you just follow the main path. If the only way FFXII feels complete is through "doing everything the game offers", then that's a big failing.

fuck you you dumb ass fucking nerd, you dont know what the fuck your talking about, prick.

haha

Hey everyone, look at the stupid cunt talking out his ass.

cunt, u say that a lot, must be the only thing you can mumble when you have huge cocks in your mouth i guess :)

You seem awfully fixated on the idea of cocks being in my mouth. Seems to me like you must want yours there. Faggot.

You seem awfully fixated on the idea of cocks being in my mouth. Seems to me like you must want yours there. Faggot.

there u go again, guys what he really just said was "damn this cum tastes like gatorade, i want more!!" but it sounded like what i quoted because my dicks way down his throat in his esophagus

Holy shit. He spelled esophagus correctly. I am truly shocked. How can someone misspell simple words like "you" and omit apostrophes, yet get that right?

Holy shit. He spelled esophagus correctly. I am truly shocked. How can someone misspell simple words like "you" and omit apostrophes, yet get that right?

That shock wasn't from that, it was from the bolt 3 ejaculation I just did while you were blowing me

It's bad enough that this kid's mind is in the gutter, but he seems to have picked up the stuff that was already there and put it in his head.

that bolt 3 really seems like its gotten to you!

I would ask what the fuck you're talking about, but I don't think I could handle the overwhelming stupidity.

The stupidity that's in everything you hear, due to the fact your mentally handicap??

retard

Oh, the irony. The delicious irony.

That isn't irony, that's cum.

silly retard :)

Well this certainly proves to me that FF7 has more in common with FF12 than I first thought. Looks like history's beginning to repeat itself somewhat lol.

Somehow I get the feeling that Paladin Cecil couldn't make it as a male pornstar and decided to settle here to unleash his STD-ridden load.

Moving back on topic.......

I agree with Shumagaki on many of his original points, although I am again concerned that he seems to be placing too much emphasis on graphics, especially when there are far more pressing problems in FFXII.

I am about 50 hours in now and the game is a real disappointment. Square have tried to change too much in this, tried too hard to make it revolutionary. My opinion is, FFX and X-2 were good games with perfectly fine systems. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. I could go at great length as to why FFXII is a step down on both those games in terms of gameplay, but I've already addressed the main points in another thread which I will happily quote if someone wants to defend the game.

As for story and characters neither have developed anywhere near enough to the point in the game I'm at to justify 50 hours of play. The game's idea of character development and relationships to this point appears to be simply that they all mistrust Basch initially and he gains their trust. That's it. After 50 hours of gameplay, that's pretty much all the development. And it's not like this change is paticularly gradual either-Basch gains their trust very easily. Nor is there any real conflict between the characters. It's very reminiscent of much of FFVII in that regard, although even FFVII shows some limited conflict, mainly involving Cait Sith and Yuffie, and briefly, Barret.

Finally, having found out that you don't actually get a useable airship I must say I am devastated, and may the cunt at Square responsible for this oversight recieve his due firing in the coming weeks. :notgood:

lol

I actually loved the game, but not as much as I had hoped. As a Vagrant Story fan, I was super excited when I read who was working on the title. When Matsuno left, I was worried, and I had all the right to be. I am willing to bet that if the game was still in his hands, the plot would've been fleshed out a lot more, but maybe I'm wrong. I for one, found the game, as far as gameplay is concerned, was the best in the series thus far.